April 14, 2025 • 39 mins
Eddie Muller, host of Noir Alley on TCM, discusses his fully revised book "Dark City Dames: The Women Who Defined Film Noir," which profiles noir actresses both at the height of their fame and decades later as they reflected on their lives after Hollywood. He shares the fascinating journey of interviewing these women, gaining their trust, and documenting their remarkable stories of resilience as they navigated life after the spotlight faded.
• Actresses profiled include Jane Greer, Ann Savage, Audrey Totter, Marie Windsor, Coleen Gray, & Evelyn Keyes
• Added profiles include Claire Trevor, Rhonda Fleming, Joan Bennett, Ruth Roman, Gail Russell, and more...
You can find "Dark City Dames: The Women Who Defined Film Noir" at booksellers beginning April 8th, with the first official book signing at the TCM Film Festival on April 24-27.
Purchase Links:
Dark City Dames: The Women Who Defined Film Noir (Revised and Expanded Edition)
Dark City: The Lost World of Film Noir (Revised and Expanded Edition)
Eddie Muller's Noir Bar: Cocktails Inspired by the World of Film Noir
REVIEW - THE DAY THE EARTH BLEW UP: A LOONEY TUNES MOVIE with Tim Millard, host of The Extras Podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim Millard (00:06):
Hello and welcome to the Extras.
I'm Tim Millard, your host, andjoining me today is Noir
historian and host of TCM's NoirAlley, Eddie Muller.
Hi Eddie.
Eddie Muller (00:16):
Hi, tim, it's good to see you again.
Tim Millard (00:18):
Yeah, it's been a little bit.
I was hoping to see you at theNoir Hollywood but, as I was
just saying to you before wejumped on here, I'm the proud
father of a 12-year-old daughterand we're in big time softball
season right now and we'rehaving a good time and
(00:38):
fortunately, when you live in LA, you can start softball in
February or everybody else isstill in winter.
So that's my story, but I dohope to see you at the upcoming
TCM Film Festival in a couple ofweeks.
Eddie Muller (00:53):
You won't be able to avoid me.
Tim Millard (00:56):
And Alan and and Rhodey and a bunch of other
friends there, and we'll justbriefly maybe talk about that at
the end.
But you have a book coming out.
I mean it's a new book becauseit's been revised quite a bit.
Well, why don't you tell usabout Dark City Dames, the women
who defined film noir, fullyrevised and updated?
Eddie Muller (01:17):
It is a reissue, but what's interesting is it has
a slightly different title thanwhen it was first issued, back
in the early.
I think it came out in 2001, ismy recollection and it was
called Dark City Dames theWicked Women of Film Noir.
(01:40):
But now, 20 odd years later,that was the one subtle change
the publisher requested was thatwe change from just W women of
film noir to the women whodefine film noir, which I was
perfectly fine with because theywere doing such a gorgeous job,
you know, revamping and sort ofremodeling the book and adding
10 additional profiles to thesix that comprise the original
(02:02):
edition of the book.
And it's a book that I've beeneager to get back in print for
years and in many ways, tim, I'mglad that it didn't happen
right away, because myrelationship with Running Press
as a publisher has just been sowonderful.
They've done such a good job.
They let me do a revised andexpanded version of Dark City,
(02:24):
my first film noir book, andthen did the cocktail book with
me and the children's book noirbook with me, and it's just a
really really good relationship,and so I'm glad that I waited
and got the treatment that Ireally wanted.
So the gist of the book is that, and it really does go hand in
(02:44):
hand with.
You mentioned the Noir CityFestival in Hollywood.
The book goes hand in hand withthat festival, which is where I
started doing film noirfestivals 26 years ago.
We just finished the 26thedition.
In that first year that we didthe festival, all of the women
that I profile in this book werestill living and came as guests
(03:06):
to the festival and because ofthat I pitched an idea to Los
Angeles Magazine aboutinterviewing and profiling these
women.
But that was just a short littlething to promote the festival.
But when they all agreed and Imet them and spoke with them and
then interviewed them at thevenue, just the idea of the book
(03:27):
occurred to me because I wouldsit in the audience with them
watching the film, some slightlyolder, to see them watching
their younger selves up on thescreen with a whole new
(03:48):
generation of viewers that theynever expected would be there
was so intriguing to me.
What was that journey like forthem to go from being 25 years
old and gorgeous and a hotproperty in Hollywood and all
that, to being these women whohadn't acted in in some cases
(04:09):
hadn't acted in 30, 40 years?
I was just really intrigued bythat and I was so grateful that
they were so generous to open upand talk about their lives.
And that's the bedrock of thebook is their stories.
Tim Millard (04:25):
Yeah, because you have it kind of the first part
and the second part.
We're talking about theoriginal book.
You always had that first part,which was a telling of their
story as a younger person, inthe height of their fame maybe.
And then the part two was youwent back and you talk to them
now in their 70s and 80s.
Eddie Muller (04:46):
Correct, and I'm so grateful to the original
publisher of the book.
It was done by Harper Collinsand Judith Regan was the
publisher.
And Judith, you know that wasan unusual idea to say.
I want the book to be as muchabout these women, when they
were older and no longer inHollywood, as it was about their
(05:07):
early days and how exciting andthrilling it was to be a movie
star.
And Judith, to her credit, saidthat's a really good idea.
Nobody's really done that.
I mean, they've done it as abiography of a famous actress.
If you're Lauren Bacall or LanaTurner or somebody like that,
they got the full treatment.
(05:28):
This is the breadth of theirlife.
But these were all actresses whoweren't household names.
They were synonymous with filmnoir, but they were not the
average moviegoer doesn't know,uh, marie windsor or audrey
totter and savage.
So that was, um, that wasdifferent, because I wanted to
(05:51):
write about working actresseswho never quite made the big
time.
I, I know eva, I know evelynkeys is turning in her grave
right now saying what do youmean?
I didn't make the big time, Iwas a big star.
But that was what I reallywanted it to be about.
It's sort of like, in a sense,like you know, in the Coen
(06:19):
brothers did Inside Llewyn Davisright, and it's like the guy
who was good, he didn't make it.
Tim Millard (06:23):
You know he wasn't.
Eddie Muller (06:24):
Bob Dylan.
And so now you have the BobDylan biopic, which will make a
great double bill with the Coenbrothers movie at some point.
But that was sort of like.
My inspiration for the book waslike what's it like to almost
grab the brass ring but notquite, and then have to carve
out a normal life for yourselfafter that?
Tim Millard (06:45):
Right, and of course many books have been
written about femme fatales, youknow, glorifying that kind of
concept, and in that sense yourbook is so different, because
there's a real stamp of realism,because you're talking to them
now, when they're older, andthere's a perspective and they
can look back.
I thought it was unique, youknow, just such a unique hook
(07:08):
and so enjoyable.
Because I didn't read throughall of the book yet, but I
didn't even read through thefull first section.
I just took Jane Greer, I readher first part and then I read
her second part.
I didn't jump to the nextactress in the order there
because I actually wanted to getthat two-sided mirror kind of
(07:33):
perspective right away and Ithought that was fun.
I mean, a viewer can, reader canchoose however they want to
read the book.
You've broken up very easilyfor that.
But I think that as a noir fanbut somebody who kind of came to
it a little bit later in mylife and I think a lot of people
(07:54):
have done that didn't grow up afan of noir.
As you age sometimes thatbecomes more and more something
that for myself I was attractedto those films and so I don't
know all the stories and I don'tknow the stories of them even
younger, unless I've seen thebiographies on A&E or I've read
(08:15):
some of the biographies, as youmentioned.
So I thought it was a great wayto do it and that part of the
second part of the story.
I wanted to ask youspecifically what was some of
the joy and interest and thingsyou found out in doing that.
Eddie Muller (08:34):
That's a great question.
I appreciate your saying thatyou can read the book any women
and to me it was moreinteresting talking to them
(09:02):
about how they orchestratedtheir lives post-Hollywood than
in Hollywood, because the partin Hollywood was pretty simple
in that era, right, if you werechosen, if they, you know,
touched you with the magic wand,you were pretty much taken care
(09:24):
of, right.
And I lucked out in doing thisbook because this was not a
contrived thing.
I didn't cast the booknecessarily right.
I mean, the deal was the womenhad to still be alive and
willing to talk to me, right.
But the good news was, likeColleen Gray was under contract
(09:46):
to Fox and Audrey Totter wasunder contract to MGM, right,
and Evelyn was at Columbia, andso I just naturally got through
their stories.
I got pictures of thesedifferent studios and how they
varied from each other and theplayers were all different.
You know, like Jane was at RKOand obviously had that really
(10:10):
tumultuous situation with HowardHughes there.
And then, you know, colleen,let me introduce people to Daryl
Zanuck and Tyrone Power and thepeople who were at Fox.
So all that was really great.
But it was the later stuff thatreally intrigued me, you know.
That's where, like Ann Savage,her story in Hollywood and Ann
(10:32):
was the star of, you know,arguably one of the most famous
noir films of all time, detour.
But you know it's a B-minusproduction and it kind of
backfired on Anne because whileshe's legendary for the film, it
cast her in a mold that shecouldn't break and a lot of
(10:53):
A-list directors passed on herbecause they saw her in Detour
and she scared them and it waslike I don't think I want to
work with that woman, right.
So it was a bad thing for hercareer and then her life
afterwards was just an amazingstory, you know, of fortitude,
(11:16):
and it was really one of thethings that really came to the
fore for me was how you knowthat generation, the women,
especially women like this, whoare so beautiful and they're
movie stars and it's like, youknow, they're the prize and so
they marry these guys who treatthem like you know, put them on
(11:37):
a pedestal and treat them sospecial, and they're never privy
to what the husband is actuallydoing, and this is a very
common story.
So there are a couple ofinstances where it comes as a
big shock, when it's like we'rebankrupt.
When it's like we're bankruptand like, how did that happen?
(11:59):
And then, how do you know?
Because that was Anne's story,right?
I mean, she just went along forthe ride and her husband said
I'll take care of everything.
And then, little by little, itbecame apparent that, you know,
they were hemorrhaging money.
And when he died, anne wasbroke.
She had to go back to work andat that point she was in her 50s
(12:22):
and it's like she's not goingback to work as an actress.
So she ends up working as adocket clerk in a law firm in
Los Angeles.
But then Detour is still therelurking in the background
waiting for its revival as thisexample of noir.
And then it's great because theyounger Anne comes back in
(12:47):
Anne's life to rescue her andgive her this third act where
she's recognized for thisincredible performance.
So it was that kind of arc tothe stories that really, really
intrigued me.
Tim Millard (13:00):
Yeah, it's fascinating and everybody has
maybe their favorite films andtheir favorite actresses, but
all of the stories are soinsightful and I just thought
they were great.
Was there anybody that?
I mean you said the parameterthey obviously had to be alive
and willing to do an interview.
Was there anybody that wasnmean you said the parameter they
obviously had to be alive andwilling to do an interview.
Was there anybody that wasn'twilling or wasn't alive, that
(13:22):
you just were like?
You know, just slightdisappointment on that one.
Eddie Muller (13:27):
Yes, there were it right Right off the bat.
There were three additionalactresses I was hoping to
profile and to me it was veryinteresting that this is not
uncommon.
I don't think I wanted tointerview Elizabeth Scott, I
wanted to interview ClaireTrevor and Rhonda Fleming, and
(13:47):
the three of them all escaped,for interesting and different
reasons.
Claire was just not up to itphysically.
She had terrible emphysema andI did talk to her several times
to interview her on the phone,but not in the depth that was
necessary to do a profile of her, really get to interview her in
(14:13):
depth.
But I do profile her and hercontributions to noir.
And Claire was very, verywealthy, very wealthy.
And Rhonda Fleming didn't wantto do the book.
Because this is a funny story,I'll tell this real quick.
I remember setting up aconversation to discuss the book
(14:36):
with her and she asked mestraight away Eddie, how many
times have I been married?
And I said four.
And she said nope, nope, that'sthe wrong answer.
I've been married twice.
And she said I was married toTed Mann and I'm married to
Daryl, my husband now.
And I said well, rhonda, it'slike public record that you've
(14:56):
been married that many times andI can't pretend that you
weren't.
I mean, nobody's going tobelieve anything else.
We say then and she says, well,then I'm not going to do the
book.
And the reason for that isbecause she was an amazing
philanthropist, you know, andbecause of her marriage to Ted
Mann, she too was extremelywealthy, and and she didn't want
(15:21):
to jeopardize any of her, herreputation as a philanthropist
or anything she didn't want meto not that there was anything
in Rhonda's background to beembarrassed about or anything.
She just she just didn't wantto do it.
And and we became really goodfriends anyway, and she appeared
many times and donated money torestore one of her films that I
(15:44):
was responsible for restoring.
And then Liz Scott was just arecluse.
She has skeletons in the closetthat she didn't want to mess
around with.
So she just said no.
But it was interesting to methat the two women who were the
most affluent, claire Trevor andRhonda Fleming, didn't want to
(16:04):
talk, whereas actresses likeAnne, you know, who really had
to scrape by, were more thanhappy to discuss their life
story.
That was kind of intriguing.
Tim Millard (16:18):
Have you gotten some responses that stick in
your mind from readers from thefirst issuing of the book?
Eddie Muller (16:28):
Well, yeah, I mean yes.
The most important feedback wasfrom them, from the actresses
themselves, because I told themgoing in that I wasn't going to
show them anything.
Right, that was a requisite forcooperating with me is I said
(16:48):
look, I have to do this the wayI want to do this.
And because there's six of you,if I say to one of you, yes, you
can review the copy before Isubmit it to the publisher, then
I am obligated to do that forall six.
And I say this is just going toslow everything down.
I'm going to be answering toseven editors then, and so I
(17:12):
said I'm not going to show youanything.
You just have to trust me andaccept that you'll be okay with
the story that comes out of it.
And I'm telling you, tim, thething that I find most
gratifying not just about thisbook, but perhaps about in my
entire career is that they allwere very pleased with the way
(17:35):
the book turned out and theirsections in the book turned out,
and they felt like it was avery accurate and true depiction
of their life story, to thedegree that I was so pleased
that Jane Greer's sons, who werevery surprised that she, told
me the things that she did, butit didn't bother anyone, you
(17:59):
know.
Tim Millard (18:01):
No, but they're very personal family.
There's some very personalfamily stuff there, especially.
Eddie Muller (18:06):
Oh yes, oh yes, when there's a little.
Well, I mean, jane had alife-threatening medical issue
that was pretty traumatic, thatshe did not really like to talk
about because it it it left herliterally scarred, like horribly
, horribly scarred, and shedidn't want people to know that.
(18:28):
She didn't want people to knowthat.
You know, gorgeous jane greer,uh, you know, had this just
miserable situation occur andand then, you know, her husband
left her and and it wastraumatizing for the boys, for
her boys, who were away atschool, and no that that story
(18:51):
had never been told, right, andso they were kind of shocked.
But in the end, when, when Janepassed away, I'm sorry to say,
but her sons, albert and Stephen, said, you know, we'd like to
give away copies of the book ather memorial service, just
because we can't think of abetter thing to send people away
(19:14):
with.
Like this was Jane, wow.
So you know, that meanseverything to me.
Tim Millard (19:20):
Yeah changed, so that you know that that means
everything to me.
Yeah, now when, when yourevised this book, were parts of
that first release revised aswell, or were just more new
photos and and that kind ofparts?
Eddie Muller (19:33):
There.
There was nothing in the textof the six original profiles
that was changed.
Tim Millard (19:40):
That's pretty amazing.
Eddie Muller (19:41):
Nothing.
Yeah, I added the afterword toexplain because I'm not in the
book.
I'm not a character in the book, which is a little tricky to
kind of have this omniscient.
You know, like I'm in theevolution department.
Tim Millard (19:58):
Because of that it reads.
It's not just like, hey, you'rereading a bunch of interviews,
you tell it as a story.
We talked about Norbar lastyear or so, but I had my little
drink with me as I'm readingthese, because it was riveting,
(20:22):
Because it is written more as astory and less as a interview
where somebody you know.
So, Jane, what did you think?
Correct?
You jumped time periods and youjumped and you added in the
characters in the second phaseof their lives, their, their
husbands or or or partners andtheir children, and I thought
that made it so much more of agood read.
Eddie Muller (20:45):
Thank you, Thank you, I really appreciate that
and I want to give the creditfor that to the women, because I
was able to do that, becausethey granted me so much time and
access to I don't want to saylive with them, but it kind of
felt like that.
You know, I spent a lot of timeat their houses.
(21:07):
I spent a lot of time I wouldsay, look if I'm in town,
because I didn't live in LA,right?
So I mean, it was like I had todo this when I could and I said
I'd like to go with you.
You know, when you're doingstuff, you know, just take me
along and I won't.
I won't be a bother or anything, but I just want to see your
life at this point, you know,and experience it.
(21:30):
So like I spent a lot of time inEvelyn's apartment and in
Anne's apartment and Colleen'shouse up at Jane's house, above
the Getty, you know, and, and soI was able to describe them in
their environment without,without doing it the way you see
in interviews, where it's likewe sat facing each other over
steamy cups of coffee and dinner, blah, blah, blah, Right?
(21:52):
No, it was just like I coulddescribe Jane's day and take
myself out of it, completelyRight, Uh, and, and I felt that
was really really valuable.
Tim Millard (22:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the one of the things youdid revise maybe were some of
the photos.
Yes, that were added, becausethat's I mean, it's a number one
, it's a huge book and so itworks well when you have these
full page black and white colorreproductions of the photos, and
I I mean the glamor shots, thethey're beautiful in here, and
then, of course, reproductionsof the photos, and I mean the
glamour shots they're beautifulin here, and then, of course,
(22:25):
some of the other publicitystills and things.
Eddie Muller (22:27):
So that part were more added, or yes and it's
funny you mentioned that, tim,because that was one of the
things I was most worried aboutin doing this new edition was
that for the original one thisis deep in the weeds stuff here,
but I'm going to share thiswith you.
For the original one, the gals,as I referred to them, the gals
(22:52):
gave me a lot of personalphotographs to use, right, and
these were which are great, youknow Polaroids and candid shots
and stuff.
You know they'd let me wanderaround the house and I'd say, oh
, can I get it, can I get this?
You know, and they were verygenerous.
But I had to give all that back, right, and I scanned it all.
(23:13):
That was 24 years ago, right,good luck accessing those scans
with all the changes intechnology, and I couldn't even
find some of the.
You know what do they call it.
You know they had the disks.
You know that you would put inand like, none of that stuff
works on the new computers,right?
So I was pulling my hair outand then finally I said, hey,
(23:36):
you know, they've had so manyadvances in the Photoshop
technology and stuff.
I said I bet I can cheat andjust scan the pictures out of
the book and then enhance themto make them good enough to use
in the new edition, and wecheated a few times with that.
Tim Millard (23:55):
Yes, well, I wouldn't know by looking at them
, because they turned out sowell, but we talk about this
whenever we talk about even filmrestoration.
The equipment and the softwarethese days is amazing and it
just is next level in terms ofwhat you're able to do with even
your own family photos.
Eddie Muller (24:13):
I would never, I would never go so far as to
cheat and do an AI, which youcan do now.
You just say show me a pictureof Marie Windsor with so-and-so,
you know, in 1953.
Tim Millard (24:24):
Just adding the contrast back in and trying to
take out some of the dust orsome of the scratches and things
of that nature.
The equipment, that softwarethat can do that is, you know,
it's so good now.
So, like you said, that's alittle bit in the weeds, but
tell us a little bit about thenewer section that you added to
this book called Eternal Flames.
Eddie Muller (24:45):
Well, this was speaking very frankly.
You know, if Running Press wasgoing to pay me for a new
edition of the book, they wantedsome work out of me.
Sure, we're not just going toreprint the original six.
(25:24):
How about writing us?
You know, 10 new profiles which,quite honestly, I initially
resisted because I said, youknow, they're actresses, to sort
of balance the stories out,because the one common
denominator my six gals had wasthat they lived to ripe old ages
, right.
And so I said, well, it'd be aninteresting contrast to profile
some actresses who didn't right, who were the classic stories
(25:45):
of how Hollywood ate them up andspit them out, right.
And so you know, I don't wantto spoil it because some people
reading the book might not knowthe fates of some of the
additional actresses that Iprofile and I imagine for
younger readers that section,some of it will come as a shock,
you know, because there's somepretty, you know, profoundly
(26:09):
tragic endings for a couple ofthese women.
But I thought that was really.
Those stories enhance the talesof the women who survived,
right.
So it's like if somebody readAnne's story and said, oh,
that's so sad that she losteverything and had to go back to
(26:29):
work and blah, blah blah.
My answer would be, yeah, butshe's not Gail Russell, right?
Because Gail Russell had just atragic end and so you can say
something sad.
But then there's Sure, comparedto this story, she had a
perfectly wonderful life.
Tim Millard (26:50):
Well, how'd you go about choosing those 10?
Eddie Muller (26:54):
Um, partly.
It was.
Uh, well, in the case of ClaireTrevor, rhonda Fleming and
Marsha Hunt and Jan Sterling,those are four of them.
Uh, I ended up knowing them allas well.
So it was like, yeah, you know,I feel very comfortable writing
about them and what kind ofpeople they were, because I knew
them.
Uh, I mean, I didn't reallyknow Claire, but I knew enough
(27:18):
and I wanted to give Claire herdue as being, you know, but she
was a bigger star than ColleenGray or Audrey Totter.
You know actresses who aretotally synonymous with noir and
(27:47):
you know the year that Stanwyckplayed in Double Indemnity,
claire Trevor played in Murdermy Sweet, and those two femme
fatale performances sort of setthe template for that character
in the genre.
So I wanted to make sure thatClaire got her due.
And then in other cases it waslike actresses who weren't
getting their due.
(28:08):
You know, like Peggy Castle,who had a very brief career but
a lot of it was spent playingthis femme fatale character in
50s noir, and so I definitelywanted to profile her.
And you know Joan Bennett who,like Claire Trevor, was another
big star who in the 40s was thatwas virtually all she made was
(28:31):
film, noir movies right.
So I had to do a profile ofJoan and you know it was like
casting my own noir film in away.
Tim Millard (28:42):
Right.
Did you have any surprises asyou were going into the research
for these 10, in terms of youthought you knew and then you
found out something different?
Eddie Muller (28:53):
That's a good question.
Yeah, I think that there weresome surprises with the early
lives of some of these actresses, like Ruth Roman and Helen
Walker.
What surprised me was how it'svery interesting how people get
into the business, because thereare some actresses, like Ruth
Roman, where it's like nothingis going to stop her moment,
(29:21):
where it's like nothing is goingto stop her.
I mean, she made up her mindwhen she was a child that she
was going to be an actress andshe changed her name because she
saw it on a theater marqueewhen she was like six years old
or something.
And her story is like the mythof Sisyphus she just kept
pushing the rock up the hilluntil she made it Right.
(29:41):
And and then there are otheractresses, like Jan Sterling,
where it was just a virtualcoincidence that she ducked into
a building in New York to getout of the rain and was spotted
by a producer and said I want toput you in this show, and then
her career was like off to theraces, you know.
(30:03):
I mean she wanted to be anactress but it just came so
easily to her, you know.
So those stories are alwayskind of fascinating to me, like
the moment, right.
I mean we love noir moviesbecause there's always that
moment, right, I mean we lovenoir movies because there's
always that moment, the turningpoint moment, where they know I
shouldn't do this, but I'm goingto do it anyway.
(30:23):
You know, and and in the livesof these actresses there was
always that moment where it'slike, oh, I wish this would
happen.
And then here it is, here's,here's the chance.
You know.
Tim Millard (30:36):
Well, I'm enjoying it, I'm going through it.
It comes out April 8th, sowhenever you're listening or
watching this, you can eitherpre-order or purchase it at
various booksellers online, andI'm sure you'll be selling it at
the TCM Festival in a couple ofweeks.
So why don't we talk just alittle bit about the festival a
(30:59):
couple of weeks?
So why don't we talk just alittle bit about the festival?
It's April 24 through 27.
Grand Illusions FantasticWorlds on Film is kind of the
theme or title for this year'sfestival.
You'll be there.
Do you know what you'll betalking about or introducing?
Eddie Muller (31:12):
It's interesting, I just got my marching orders.
In fact, Just yesterday theemail came through with my list
of things to do.
Tim Millard (31:22):
It came through on April Fool's Day.
Eddie Muller (31:25):
Oh, you're right, Tim, maybe I shouldn't believe
it, you never know.
I've got to double check today.
But what's interesting is thereisn't a lot of noir.
But what's interesting is thereisn't a lot of noir.
I think I have one film noir inthe whole program but I'm
excited.
Well, that's not true.
One thing I am excited about isI'm going to be introducing
(31:48):
Blue Velvet.
Very important that we includea David Lynch movie now that he
has passed, and I'll beintroducing that with Kyle
MacLachlan.
So that's fantastic.
Yeah, I'm very excited aboutthat.
I'm also doing a presentation.
This is something I have lookedforward to now for years.
(32:09):
I'm doing a presentation withDan Perry who is, like the
world's greatest title designerfor movies.
If you saw movies in the 1970s,you saw Dan Perry title design.
He did the Exorcist, the CloseEncounters, taxi Driver
Nashville.
(32:29):
He did titles for all the majorHollywood directors in the 70s
and beyond and we're going tohave a sit down talk with a big
multimedia presentation on howhe goes about, you know,
creating titles for movies andhow that all works.
I'm very excited about that.
But you know, beyond that Ican't remember.
Tim Millard (32:53):
Well, and you'll find out if it was April Fool's
or not.
No, I'm sure those are true.
Well, I saw with the titleGrand Delusions.
I thought, well, you know,there might be not as much noir
this year as there are in someyears, especially when it says
fantastic worlds on film.
It sounded a little bit moreleaning toward that.
Eddie Muller (33:13):
It's like fantasy and science fiction.
Tim Millard (33:14):
Fantasy and science fiction A lot of that yeah,
no-transcript, yeah, and thingsof that nature.
So that's great, and I thinkthe kickoff of the festival is
Star Wars, is it not?
Eddie Muller (33:24):
Correct Empire Strikes Back yeah.
Tim Millard (33:26):
So it kind of gives you the get-go there, letting
you know what kind of the focusis this year.
But it's always great to seethe films there at the festival
and it'll be good to see youthere.
People can look for your bookas well.
I'm sure you're going to bedoing this signing.
Eddie Muller (33:41):
Yes, that's my first.
It was orchestrated this way.
It's my first signing of thebook will be at the TCM Film
Festival.
They made me promise I wouldn'tdo signings in advance of the
festival.
Oh, I see, right, sure, so wecould say that that was the
first big one kicking it off.
Tim Millard (34:00):
Yeah, so those living in LA and coming and or
flying in to come to thefestival can look for that on
the schedule, but otherwise youcan order the book from your
favorite retailer.
So well, I'm having great funwith it.
Like I said, I get myself pourmyself a little drink and I sit
down and I read a chapter and ituh, these are pretty long
(34:20):
chapters, so they take a whileand they're very engrossing.
And, uh, I guess it's not achapter, it's a, it's a section
or a part of the story.
Eddie Muller (34:27):
Well, I called them chapters.
Tim Millard (34:29):
Yeah.
Eddie Muller (34:31):
So it's a great book.
Tim Millard (34:31):
Well, thanks for coming on today.
It's always great to talk withyou and I know the listeners and
everybody loved the work thatyou do, so congratulations on
such an amazing career thatyou're having.
Eddie Muller (34:43):
Thank you.
Thank you, tim.
I appreciate that very much.
I appreciate the opportunity totalk about the book and I
appreciate the fact that youread the book or are reading the
book, because sometimes I dothese.
You know it's interesting.
I like people who do podcastsand radio shows a little bit
more than the people who do TV,because when you do TV you know
that they haven't read the book.
Tim Millard (35:05):
You're lucky if they read the press release, let
alone just a blurb.
But no, I you know.
Look, why talk about the bookif I'm not enjoying it?
You know it's, it's, that'spart of it.
But also it's a 300-pageroughly book.
There's no way I was able toread all of it before our
discussion, but all it takes isreading the first, just one of
(35:27):
the profiles and also some ofthe new sections, the Eternal
Flames to get a flavor for itand to know that this is an
engrossing fun and a great read.
So thank you so much.
Thank you.
I hope you enjoyed thatdiscussion as much as I did.
That was a lot of fun and Ihighly recommend the book Dark
(35:49):
City Dames the Women who DefinedFilm Noir.
This new, revised and updatedversion is a terrific addition
to your library and I thinkyou'll really enjoy reading it.
Until next time you've beenlistening to Tim Millard.
Stay slightly obsessed.
Hello and welcome to the Extras.
I'm Tim Millard, your host, andjoining me today is Noir
historian and host of TCM's NoirAlley, Eddie Muller.
Hi Eddie.
Eddie Muller (00:16):
Hi, tim, it's good to see you again.
Tim Millard (00:18):
Yeah, it's been a little bit.
I was hoping to see you at theNoir Hollywood but, as I was
just saying to you before wejumped on here, I'm the proud
father of a 12-year-old daughterand we're in big time softball
season right now and we'rehaving a good time and
(00:38):
fortunately, when you live in LA, you can start softball in
February or everybody else isstill in winter.
So that's my story, but I dohope to see you at the upcoming
TCM Film Festival in a couple ofweeks.
Eddie Muller (00:53):
You won't be able to avoid me.
Tim Millard (00:56):
And Alan and and Rhodey and a bunch of other
friends there, and we'll justbriefly maybe talk about that at
the end.
But you have a book coming out.
I mean it's a new book becauseit's been revised quite a bit.
Well, why don't you tell usabout Dark City Dames, the women
who defined film noir, fullyrevised and updated?
Eddie Muller (01:17):
It is a reissue, but what's interesting is it has
a slightly different title thanwhen it was first issued, back
in the early.
I think it came out in 2001, ismy recollection and it was
called Dark City Dames theWicked Women of Film Noir.
(01:40):
But now, 20 odd years later,that was the one subtle change
the publisher requested was thatwe change from just W women of
film noir to the women whodefine film noir, which I was
perfectly fine with because theywere doing such a gorgeous job,
you know, revamping and sort ofremodeling the book and adding
10 additional profiles to thesix that comprise the original
(02:02):
edition of the book.
And it's a book that I've beeneager to get back in print for
years and in many ways, tim, I'mglad that it didn't happen
right away, because myrelationship with Running Press
as a publisher has just been sowonderful.
They've done such a good job.
They let me do a revised andexpanded version of Dark City,
(02:24):
my first film noir book, andthen did the cocktail book with
me and the children's book noirbook with me, and it's just a
really really good relationship,and so I'm glad that I waited
and got the treatment that Ireally wanted.
So the gist of the book is that, and it really does go hand in
(02:44):
hand with.
You mentioned the Noir CityFestival in Hollywood.
The book goes hand in hand withthat festival, which is where I
started doing film noirfestivals 26 years ago.
We just finished the 26thedition.
In that first year that we didthe festival, all of the women
that I profile in this book werestill living and came as guests
(03:06):
to the festival and because ofthat I pitched an idea to Los
Angeles Magazine aboutinterviewing and profiling these
women.
But that was just a short littlething to promote the festival.
But when they all agreed and Imet them and spoke with them and
then interviewed them at thevenue, just the idea of the book
(03:27):
occurred to me because I wouldsit in the audience with them
watching the film, some slightlyolder, to see them watching
their younger selves up on thescreen with a whole new
(03:48):
generation of viewers that theynever expected would be there
was so intriguing to me.
What was that journey like forthem to go from being 25 years
old and gorgeous and a hotproperty in Hollywood and all
that, to being these women whohadn't acted in in some cases
(04:09):
hadn't acted in 30, 40 years?
I was just really intrigued bythat and I was so grateful that
they were so generous to open upand talk about their lives.
And that's the bedrock of thebook is their stories.
Tim Millard (04:25):
Yeah, because you have it kind of the first part
and the second part.
We're talking about theoriginal book.
You always had that first part,which was a telling of their
story as a younger person, inthe height of their fame maybe.
And then the part two was youwent back and you talk to them
now in their 70s and 80s.
Eddie Muller (04:46):
Correct, and I'm so grateful to the original
publisher of the book.
It was done by Harper Collinsand Judith Regan was the
publisher.
And Judith, you know that wasan unusual idea to say.
I want the book to be as muchabout these women, when they
were older and no longer inHollywood, as it was about their
(05:07):
early days and how exciting andthrilling it was to be a movie
star.
And Judith, to her credit, saidthat's a really good idea.
Nobody's really done that.
I mean, they've done it as abiography of a famous actress.
If you're Lauren Bacall or LanaTurner or somebody like that,
they got the full treatment.
(05:28):
This is the breadth of theirlife.
But these were all actresses whoweren't household names.
They were synonymous with filmnoir, but they were not the
average moviegoer doesn't know,uh, marie windsor or audrey
totter and savage.
So that was, um, that wasdifferent, because I wanted to
(05:51):
write about working actresseswho never quite made the big
time.
I, I know eva, I know evelynkeys is turning in her grave
right now saying what do youmean?
I didn't make the big time, Iwas a big star.
But that was what I reallywanted it to be about.
It's sort of like, in a sense,like you know, in the Coen
(06:19):
brothers did Inside Llewyn Davisright, and it's like the guy
who was good, he didn't make it.
Tim Millard (06:23):
You know he wasn't.
Eddie Muller (06:24):
Bob Dylan.
And so now you have the BobDylan biopic, which will make a
great double bill with the Coenbrothers movie at some point.
But that was sort of like.
My inspiration for the book waslike what's it like to almost
grab the brass ring but notquite, and then have to carve
out a normal life for yourselfafter that?
Tim Millard (06:45):
Right, and of course many books have been
written about femme fatales, youknow, glorifying that kind of
concept, and in that sense yourbook is so different, because
there's a real stamp of realism,because you're talking to them
now, when they're older, andthere's a perspective and they
can look back.
I thought it was unique, youknow, just such a unique hook
(07:08):
and so enjoyable.
Because I didn't read throughall of the book yet, but I
didn't even read through thefull first section.
I just took Jane Greer, I readher first part and then I read
her second part.
I didn't jump to the nextactress in the order there
because I actually wanted to getthat two-sided mirror kind of
(07:33):
perspective right away and Ithought that was fun.
I mean, a viewer can, reader canchoose however they want to
read the book.
You've broken up very easilyfor that.
But I think that as a noir fanbut somebody who kind of came to
it a little bit later in mylife and I think a lot of people
(07:54):
have done that didn't grow up afan of noir.
As you age sometimes thatbecomes more and more something
that for myself I was attractedto those films and so I don't
know all the stories and I don'tknow the stories of them even
younger, unless I've seen thebiographies on A&E or I've read
(08:15):
some of the biographies, as youmentioned.
So I thought it was a great wayto do it and that part of the
second part of the story.
I wanted to ask youspecifically what was some of
the joy and interest and thingsyou found out in doing that.
Eddie Muller (08:34):
That's a great question.
I appreciate your saying thatyou can read the book any women
and to me it was moreinteresting talking to them
(09:02):
about how they orchestratedtheir lives post-Hollywood than
in Hollywood, because the partin Hollywood was pretty simple
in that era, right, if you werechosen, if they, you know,
touched you with the magic wand,you were pretty much taken care
(09:24):
of, right.
And I lucked out in doing thisbook because this was not a
contrived thing.
I didn't cast the booknecessarily right.
I mean, the deal was the womenhad to still be alive and
willing to talk to me, right.
But the good news was, likeColleen Gray was under contract
(09:46):
to Fox and Audrey Totter wasunder contract to MGM, right,
and Evelyn was at Columbia, andso I just naturally got through
their stories.
I got pictures of thesedifferent studios and how they
varied from each other and theplayers were all different.
You know, like Jane was at RKOand obviously had that really
(10:10):
tumultuous situation with HowardHughes there.
And then, you know, colleen,let me introduce people to Daryl
Zanuck and Tyrone Power and thepeople who were at Fox.
So all that was really great.
But it was the later stuff thatreally intrigued me, you know.
That's where, like Ann Savage,her story in Hollywood and Ann
(10:32):
was the star of, you know,arguably one of the most famous
noir films of all time, detour.
But you know it's a B-minusproduction and it kind of
backfired on Anne because whileshe's legendary for the film, it
cast her in a mold that shecouldn't break and a lot of
(10:53):
A-list directors passed on herbecause they saw her in Detour
and she scared them and it waslike I don't think I want to
work with that woman, right.
So it was a bad thing for hercareer and then her life
afterwards was just an amazingstory, you know, of fortitude,
(11:16):
and it was really one of thethings that really came to the
fore for me was how you knowthat generation, the women,
especially women like this, whoare so beautiful and they're
movie stars and it's like, youknow, they're the prize and so
they marry these guys who treatthem like you know, put them on
(11:37):
a pedestal and treat them sospecial, and they're never privy
to what the husband is actuallydoing, and this is a very
common story.
So there are a couple ofinstances where it comes as a
big shock, when it's like we'rebankrupt.
When it's like we're bankruptand like, how did that happen?
(11:59):
And then, how do you know?
Because that was Anne's story,right?
I mean, she just went along forthe ride and her husband said
I'll take care of everything.
And then, little by little, itbecame apparent that, you know,
they were hemorrhaging money.
And when he died, anne wasbroke.
She had to go back to work andat that point she was in her 50s
(12:22):
and it's like she's not goingback to work as an actress.
So she ends up working as adocket clerk in a law firm in
Los Angeles.
But then Detour is still therelurking in the background
waiting for its revival as thisexample of noir.
And then it's great because theyounger Anne comes back in
(12:47):
Anne's life to rescue her andgive her this third act where
she's recognized for thisincredible performance.
So it was that kind of arc tothe stories that really, really
intrigued me.
Tim Millard (13:00):
Yeah, it's fascinating and everybody has
maybe their favorite films andtheir favorite actresses, but
all of the stories are soinsightful and I just thought
they were great.
Was there anybody that?
I mean you said the parameterthey obviously had to be alive
and willing to do an interview.
Was there anybody that wasnmean you said the parameter they
obviously had to be alive andwilling to do an interview.
Was there anybody that wasn'twilling or wasn't alive, that
(13:22):
you just were like?
You know, just slightdisappointment on that one.
Eddie Muller (13:27):
Yes, there were it right Right off the bat.
There were three additionalactresses I was hoping to
profile and to me it was veryinteresting that this is not
uncommon.
I don't think I wanted tointerview Elizabeth Scott, I
wanted to interview ClaireTrevor and Rhonda Fleming, and
(13:47):
the three of them all escaped,for interesting and different
reasons.
Claire was just not up to itphysically.
She had terrible emphysema andI did talk to her several times
to interview her on the phone,but not in the depth that was
necessary to do a profile of her, really get to interview her in
(14:13):
depth.
But I do profile her and hercontributions to noir.
And Claire was very, verywealthy, very wealthy.
And Rhonda Fleming didn't wantto do the book.
Because this is a funny story,I'll tell this real quick.
I remember setting up aconversation to discuss the book
(14:36):
with her and she asked mestraight away Eddie, how many
times have I been married?
And I said four.
And she said nope, nope, that'sthe wrong answer.
I've been married twice.
And she said I was married toTed Mann and I'm married to
Daryl, my husband now.
And I said well, rhonda, it'slike public record that you've
(14:56):
been married that many times andI can't pretend that you
weren't.
I mean, nobody's going tobelieve anything else.
We say then and she says, well,then I'm not going to do the
book.
And the reason for that isbecause she was an amazing
philanthropist, you know, andbecause of her marriage to Ted
Mann, she too was extremelywealthy, and and she didn't want
(15:21):
to jeopardize any of her, herreputation as a philanthropist
or anything she didn't want meto not that there was anything
in Rhonda's background to beembarrassed about or anything.
She just she just didn't wantto do it.
And and we became really goodfriends anyway, and she appeared
many times and donated money torestore one of her films that I
(15:44):
was responsible for restoring.
And then Liz Scott was just arecluse.
She has skeletons in the closetthat she didn't want to mess
around with.
So she just said no.
But it was interesting to methat the two women who were the
most affluent, claire Trevor andRhonda Fleming, didn't want to
(16:04):
talk, whereas actresses likeAnne, you know, who really had
to scrape by, were more thanhappy to discuss their life
story.
That was kind of intriguing.
Tim Millard (16:18):
Have you gotten some responses that stick in
your mind from readers from thefirst issuing of the book?
Eddie Muller (16:28):
Well, yeah, I mean yes.
The most important feedback wasfrom them, from the actresses
themselves, because I told themgoing in that I wasn't going to
show them anything.
Right, that was a requisite forcooperating with me is I said
(16:48):
look, I have to do this the wayI want to do this.
And because there's six of you,if I say to one of you, yes, you
can review the copy before Isubmit it to the publisher, then
I am obligated to do that forall six.
And I say this is just going toslow everything down.
I'm going to be answering toseven editors then, and so I
(17:12):
said I'm not going to show youanything.
You just have to trust me andaccept that you'll be okay with
the story that comes out of it.
And I'm telling you, tim, thething that I find most
gratifying not just about thisbook, but perhaps about in my
entire career is that they allwere very pleased with the way
(17:35):
the book turned out and theirsections in the book turned out,
and they felt like it was avery accurate and true depiction
of their life story, to thedegree that I was so pleased
that Jane Greer's sons, who werevery surprised that she, told
me the things that she did, butit didn't bother anyone, you
(17:59):
know.
Tim Millard (18:01):
No, but they're very personal family.
There's some very personalfamily stuff there, especially.
Eddie Muller (18:06):
Oh yes, oh yes, when there's a little.
Well, I mean, jane had alife-threatening medical issue
that was pretty traumatic, thatshe did not really like to talk
about because it it it left herliterally scarred, like horribly
, horribly scarred, and shedidn't want people to know that.
(18:28):
She didn't want people to knowthat.
You know, gorgeous jane greer,uh, you know, had this just
miserable situation occur andand then, you know, her husband
left her and and it wastraumatizing for the boys, for
her boys, who were away atschool, and no that that story
(18:51):
had never been told, right, andso they were kind of shocked.
But in the end, when, when Janepassed away, I'm sorry to say,
but her sons, albert and Stephen, said, you know, we'd like to
give away copies of the book ather memorial service, just
because we can't think of abetter thing to send people away
(19:14):
with.
Like this was Jane, wow.
So you know, that meanseverything to me.
Tim Millard (19:20):
Yeah changed, so that you know that that means
everything to me.
Yeah, now when, when yourevised this book, were parts of
that first release revised aswell, or were just more new
photos and and that kind ofparts?
Eddie Muller (19:33):
There.
There was nothing in the textof the six original profiles
that was changed.
Tim Millard (19:40):
That's pretty amazing.
Eddie Muller (19:41):
Nothing.
Yeah, I added the afterword toexplain because I'm not in the
book.
I'm not a character in the book, which is a little tricky to
kind of have this omniscient.
You know, like I'm in theevolution department.
Tim Millard (19:58):
Because of that it reads.
It's not just like, hey, you'rereading a bunch of interviews,
you tell it as a story.
We talked about Norbar lastyear or so, but I had my little
drink with me as I'm readingthese, because it was riveting,
(20:22):
Because it is written more as astory and less as a interview
where somebody you know.
So, Jane, what did you think?
Correct?
You jumped time periods and youjumped and you added in the
characters in the second phaseof their lives, their, their
husbands or or or partners andtheir children, and I thought
that made it so much more of agood read.
Eddie Muller (20:45):
Thank you, Thank you, I really appreciate that
and I want to give the creditfor that to the women, because I
was able to do that, becausethey granted me so much time and
access to I don't want to saylive with them, but it kind of
felt like that.
You know, I spent a lot of timeat their houses.
(21:07):
I spent a lot of time I wouldsay, look if I'm in town,
because I didn't live in LA,right?
So I mean, it was like I had todo this when I could and I said
I'd like to go with you.
You know, when you're doingstuff, you know, just take me
along and I won't.
I won't be a bother or anything, but I just want to see your
life at this point, you know,and experience it.
(21:30):
So like I spent a lot of time inEvelyn's apartment and in
Anne's apartment and Colleen'shouse up at Jane's house, above
the Getty, you know, and, and soI was able to describe them in
their environment without,without doing it the way you see
in interviews, where it's likewe sat facing each other over
steamy cups of coffee and dinner, blah, blah, blah, Right?
(21:52):
No, it was just like I coulddescribe Jane's day and take
myself out of it, completelyRight, Uh, and, and I felt that
was really really valuable.
Tim Millard (22:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the one of the things youdid revise maybe were some of
the photos.
Yes, that were added, becausethat's I mean, it's a number one
, it's a huge book and so itworks well when you have these
full page black and white colorreproductions of the photos, and
I I mean the glamor shots, thethey're beautiful in here, and
then, of course, reproductionsof the photos, and I mean the
glamour shots they're beautifulin here, and then, of course,
(22:25):
some of the other publicitystills and things.
Eddie Muller (22:27):
So that part were more added, or yes and it's
funny you mentioned that, tim,because that was one of the
things I was most worried aboutin doing this new edition was
that for the original one thisis deep in the weeds stuff here,
but I'm going to share thiswith you.
For the original one, the gals,as I referred to them, the gals
(22:52):
gave me a lot of personalphotographs to use, right, and
these were which are great, youknow Polaroids and candid shots
and stuff.
You know they'd let me wanderaround the house and I'd say, oh
, can I get it, can I get this?
You know, and they were verygenerous.
But I had to give all that back, right, and I scanned it all.
(23:13):
That was 24 years ago, right,good luck accessing those scans
with all the changes intechnology, and I couldn't even
find some of the.
You know what do they call it.
You know they had the disks.
You know that you would put inand like, none of that stuff
works on the new computers,right?
So I was pulling my hair outand then finally I said, hey,
(23:36):
you know, they've had so manyadvances in the Photoshop
technology and stuff.
I said I bet I can cheat andjust scan the pictures out of
the book and then enhance themto make them good enough to use
in the new edition, and wecheated a few times with that.
Tim Millard (23:55):
Yes, well, I wouldn't know by looking at them
, because they turned out sowell, but we talk about this
whenever we talk about even filmrestoration.
The equipment and the softwarethese days is amazing and it
just is next level in terms ofwhat you're able to do with even
your own family photos.
Eddie Muller (24:13):
I would never, I would never go so far as to
cheat and do an AI, which youcan do now.
You just say show me a pictureof Marie Windsor with so-and-so,
you know, in 1953.
Tim Millard (24:24):
Just adding the contrast back in and trying to
take out some of the dust orsome of the scratches and things
of that nature.
The equipment, that softwarethat can do that is, you know,
it's so good now.
So, like you said, that's alittle bit in the weeds, but
tell us a little bit about thenewer section that you added to
this book called Eternal Flames.
Eddie Muller (24:45):
Well, this was speaking very frankly.
You know, if Running Press wasgoing to pay me for a new
edition of the book, they wantedsome work out of me.
Sure, we're not just going toreprint the original six.
(25:24):
How about writing us?
You know, 10 new profiles which,quite honestly, I initially
resisted because I said, youknow, they're actresses, to sort
of balance the stories out,because the one common
denominator my six gals had wasthat they lived to ripe old ages
, right.
And so I said, well, it'd be aninteresting contrast to profile
some actresses who didn't right, who were the classic stories
(25:45):
of how Hollywood ate them up andspit them out, right.
And so you know, I don't wantto spoil it because some people
reading the book might not knowthe fates of some of the
additional actresses that Iprofile and I imagine for
younger readers that section,some of it will come as a shock,
you know, because there's somepretty, you know, profoundly
(26:09):
tragic endings for a couple ofthese women.
But I thought that was really.
Those stories enhance the talesof the women who survived,
right.
So it's like if somebody readAnne's story and said, oh,
that's so sad that she losteverything and had to go back to
(26:29):
work and blah, blah blah.
My answer would be, yeah, butshe's not Gail Russell, right?
Because Gail Russell had just atragic end and so you can say
something sad.
But then there's Sure, comparedto this story, she had a
perfectly wonderful life.
Tim Millard (26:50):
Well, how'd you go about choosing those 10?
Eddie Muller (26:54):
Um, partly.
It was.
Uh, well, in the case of ClaireTrevor, rhonda Fleming and
Marsha Hunt and Jan Sterling,those are four of them.
Uh, I ended up knowing them allas well.
So it was like, yeah, you know,I feel very comfortable writing
about them and what kind ofpeople they were, because I knew
them.
Uh, I mean, I didn't reallyknow Claire, but I knew enough
(27:18):
and I wanted to give Claire herdue as being, you know, but she
was a bigger star than ColleenGray or Audrey Totter.
You know actresses who aretotally synonymous with noir and
(27:47):
you know the year that Stanwyckplayed in Double Indemnity,
claire Trevor played in Murdermy Sweet, and those two femme
fatale performances sort of setthe template for that character
in the genre.
So I wanted to make sure thatClaire got her due.
And then in other cases it waslike actresses who weren't
getting their due.
(28:08):
You know, like Peggy Castle,who had a very brief career but
a lot of it was spent playingthis femme fatale character in
50s noir, and so I definitelywanted to profile her.
And you know Joan Bennett who,like Claire Trevor, was another
big star who in the 40s was thatwas virtually all she made was
(28:31):
film, noir movies right.
So I had to do a profile ofJoan and you know it was like
casting my own noir film in away.
Tim Millard (28:42):
Right.
Did you have any surprises asyou were going into the research
for these 10, in terms of youthought you knew and then you
found out something different?
Eddie Muller (28:53):
That's a good question.
Yeah, I think that there weresome surprises with the early
lives of some of these actresses, like Ruth Roman and Helen
Walker.
What surprised me was how it'svery interesting how people get
into the business, because thereare some actresses, like Ruth
Roman, where it's like nothingis going to stop her moment,
(29:21):
where it's like nothing is goingto stop her.
I mean, she made up her mindwhen she was a child that she
was going to be an actress andshe changed her name because she
saw it on a theater marqueewhen she was like six years old
or something.
And her story is like the mythof Sisyphus she just kept
pushing the rock up the hilluntil she made it Right.
(29:41):
And and then there are otheractresses, like Jan Sterling,
where it was just a virtualcoincidence that she ducked into
a building in New York to getout of the rain and was spotted
by a producer and said I want toput you in this show, and then
her career was like off to theraces, you know.
(30:03):
I mean she wanted to be anactress but it just came so
easily to her, you know.
So those stories are alwayskind of fascinating to me, like
the moment, right.
I mean we love noir moviesbecause there's always that
moment, right, I mean we lovenoir movies because there's
always that moment, the turningpoint moment, where they know I
shouldn't do this, but I'm goingto do it anyway.
(30:23):
You know, and and in the livesof these actresses there was
always that moment where it'slike, oh, I wish this would
happen.
And then here it is, here's,here's the chance.
You know.
Tim Millard (30:36):
Well, I'm enjoying it, I'm going through it.
It comes out April 8th, sowhenever you're listening or
watching this, you can eitherpre-order or purchase it at
various booksellers online, andI'm sure you'll be selling it at
the TCM Festival in a couple ofweeks.
So why don't we talk just alittle bit about the festival a
(30:59):
couple of weeks?
So why don't we talk just alittle bit about the festival?
It's April 24 through 27.
Grand Illusions FantasticWorlds on Film is kind of the
theme or title for this year'sfestival.
You'll be there.
Do you know what you'll betalking about or introducing?
Eddie Muller (31:12):
It's interesting, I just got my marching orders.
In fact, Just yesterday theemail came through with my list
of things to do.
Tim Millard (31:22):
It came through on April Fool's Day.
Eddie Muller (31:25):
Oh, you're right, Tim, maybe I shouldn't believe
it, you never know.
I've got to double check today.
But what's interesting is thereisn't a lot of noir.
But what's interesting is thereisn't a lot of noir.
I think I have one film noir inthe whole program but I'm
excited.
Well, that's not true.
One thing I am excited about isI'm going to be introducing
(31:48):
Blue Velvet.
Very important that we includea David Lynch movie now that he
has passed, and I'll beintroducing that with Kyle
MacLachlan.
So that's fantastic.
Yeah, I'm very excited aboutthat.
I'm also doing a presentation.
This is something I have lookedforward to now for years.
(32:09):
I'm doing a presentation withDan Perry who is, like the
world's greatest title designerfor movies.
If you saw movies in the 1970s,you saw Dan Perry title design.
He did the Exorcist, the CloseEncounters, taxi Driver
Nashville.
(32:29):
He did titles for all the majorHollywood directors in the 70s
and beyond and we're going tohave a sit down talk with a big
multimedia presentation on howhe goes about, you know,
creating titles for movies andhow that all works.
I'm very excited about that.
But you know, beyond that Ican't remember.
Tim Millard (32:53):
Well, and you'll find out if it was April Fool's
or not.
No, I'm sure those are true.
Well, I saw with the titleGrand Delusions.
I thought, well, you know,there might be not as much noir
this year as there are in someyears, especially when it says
fantastic worlds on film.
It sounded a little bit moreleaning toward that.
Eddie Muller (33:13):
It's like fantasy and science fiction.
Tim Millard (33:14):
Fantasy and science fiction A lot of that yeah,
no-transcript, yeah, and thingsof that nature.
So that's great, and I thinkthe kickoff of the festival is
Star Wars, is it not?
Eddie Muller (33:24):
Correct Empire Strikes Back yeah.
Tim Millard (33:26):
So it kind of gives you the get-go there, letting
you know what kind of the focusis this year.
But it's always great to seethe films there at the festival
and it'll be good to see youthere.
People can look for your bookas well.
I'm sure you're going to bedoing this signing.
Eddie Muller (33:41):
Yes, that's my first.
It was orchestrated this way.
It's my first signing of thebook will be at the TCM Film
Festival.
They made me promise I wouldn'tdo signings in advance of the
festival.
Oh, I see, right, sure, so wecould say that that was the
first big one kicking it off.
Tim Millard (34:00):
Yeah, so those living in LA and coming and or
flying in to come to thefestival can look for that on
the schedule, but otherwise youcan order the book from your
favorite retailer.
So well, I'm having great funwith it.
Like I said, I get myself pourmyself a little drink and I sit
down and I read a chapter and ituh, these are pretty long
(34:20):
chapters, so they take a whileand they're very engrossing.
And, uh, I guess it's not achapter, it's a, it's a section
or a part of the story.
Eddie Muller (34:27):
Well, I called them chapters.
Tim Millard (34:29):
Yeah.
Eddie Muller (34:31):
So it's a great book.
Tim Millard (34:31):
Well, thanks for coming on today.
It's always great to talk withyou and I know the listeners and
everybody loved the work thatyou do, so congratulations on
such an amazing career thatyou're having.
Eddie Muller (34:43):
Thank you.
Thank you, tim.
I appreciate that very much.
I appreciate the opportunity totalk about the book and I
appreciate the fact that youread the book or are reading the
book, because sometimes I dothese.
You know it's interesting.
I like people who do podcastsand radio shows a little bit
more than the people who do TV,because when you do TV you know
that they haven't read the book.
Tim Millard (35:05):
You're lucky if they read the press release, let
alone just a blurb.
But no, I you know.
Look, why talk about the bookif I'm not enjoying it?
You know it's, it's, that'spart of it.
But also it's a 300-pageroughly book.
There's no way I was able toread all of it before our
discussion, but all it takes isreading the first, just one of
(35:27):
the profiles and also some ofthe new sections, the Eternal
Flames to get a flavor for itand to know that this is an
engrossing fun and a great read.
So thank you so much.
Thank you.
I hope you enjoyed thatdiscussion as much as I did.
That was a lot of fun and Ihighly recommend the book Dark
(35:49):
City Dames the Women who DefinedFilm Noir.
This new, revised and updatedversion is a terrific addition
to your library and I thinkyou'll really enjoy reading it.
Until next time you've beenlistening to Tim Millard.
Stay slightly obsessed.
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