November 27, 2025 • 50 mins
We sit down with Ben Mankiewicz to trace his path from sports-obsessed kid to TCM host, exploring what makes a film “classic,” why nostalgia hits harder with age, and how storytelling in podcasts and on-air curation keeps cinema alive. Along the way, we debunk Cleopatra myths, celebrate overlooked gems, and make the case for family movie night as a way to slow time. This is a perfect podcast for the holidays, as we ruminate on family, nostalgia, and the importance of movies.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim Millard (01:10):
Hello and welcome to the Extras.
I'm Tim Millard, your host, andtoday I'm joined by TCM host,
Ben Mankiewicz.
Hey Ben.
Ben Mankiewicz (01:18):
Hey Tim, how are you?
Tim Millard (01:19):
Good, good.
Are you uh getting ready forthe holidays here?
Ben Mankiewicz (01:22):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, we're having a smallThanksgiving.
People keep bailing on us.
Tim Millard (01:27):
Maybe we should have been coming.
I know it's a busy week.
Ben Mankiewicz (01:30):
Maybe we should uh read something into this.
Uh but anyway, it'll be niceand uh it's my favorite holiday
by far.
You know, it's uh you hang outwith people you care about.
You know, nobody has to give agift.
I know.
There's uh there's football inthe middle of the week and the
weekend.
Like it's good.
I love uh I love Thanksgiving.
Tim Millard (01:49):
Yeah, yeah, it's great.
Well, uh I told you earlierwhen I met you that uh I worked
at Warner Home Video for almost14 years, but we never actually
met while I was working therebecause we're very separate
divisions or anything.
We actually met at our daughtersoftball game back in
September.
I remember the the playoffswere going on.
We were talking about that uhas we were watching the game.
(02:11):
But do people know how big of abaseball fan you are?
Ben Mankiewicz (02:15):
I mean, people if they've if they've uh
listened to one of theinterviews I've done, but
basically, no, I don't get it,you know.
I I thought that was going tobe my career.
I thought I was not playing, Iwasn't that foolish, although I,
you know, I played as long as Icould, and then I played
softball as long as I couldalso, but not as much as I
should have.
Like, I love it so much that Ishould have been playing like a
(02:37):
couple times a week.
It's just I love it.
Um, but man, when I hit like35, like I got a lot worse.
Like, you know, I mean, I wasalways good, and then all of a
sudden I'm like, I'm like theseventh best player on this
team.
Tops.
Yeah.
And I was a great outfielder,and all of a sudden I was like,
I am letting balls go over myhead.
Like I lost the ability to um,yeah, I I thought I was gonna be
(03:00):
a baseball broadcaster.
I sort of thought that's whatwas in the cards for me and what
I wanted to do.
And I sort of knew that if Iworked at it, I'd be I'd be
pretty good at it.
Yeah, and like I recognizednow, this is gonna sound uh this
is I'll probably regret this,but uh I would have been great
at it.
Like because when I was comingup, there was a traditional
(03:23):
manner in which broadcasters hadto speak, and and that was
always tricky for me.
But now that you can sort oflet your personality be part of
your presentation, that youdon't have to act like you're a
baseball broadcaster, right?
That there are enough reallygood broadcasters, and I'm sure
some people hate them.
It's obviously a verysubjective business, but but I I
(03:43):
I would have had my own thingand my own sort of very casual
style, and it would have workedenough for some people, and and
I I would have been good at it.
And I could I partly because Ijust would have, you know, I
loved it.
Yeah.
I still do, still lovelistening to baseball on the
radio.
Tim Millard (03:57):
I agree.
I I I think back, you know,when I was in college, when I
went into my broadcast classes,one of the key things I thought
was sports, you know, just interms of a pure interest that I
had as well.
Uh here we are both we talkabout film, but um, and look how
much and and sports is I mean,it's changed.
Ben Mankiewicz (04:14):
I mean, in this era where everything has
changed, and and obviouslysports has too, but in a sense,
sports has become more importantthan it ever was.
I mean, you know, uh everysingle reality show is trying to
capture what sports does, whichis this reality show where you
don't know how it's gonna end.
And that's not you legitimatelydon't know how it's gonna end.
I mean, we can, you know,people can talk about the fix
being in, but it's there's nofix in.
Tim Millard (04:34):
It's it's a great drama, right?
It's great drama, and and we wejust came off this great World
Series game seven, it comesright down to uh extra things.
I mean, there's no dramagreater than that.
Ben Mankiewicz (04:43):
Uh yeah, and and and in football and basketball
too.
I mean, I I you know, I mean, Iremember I was listening to uh
I guess I didn't know I hadn't Ididn't listen to Clippers on
the radio.
I live out here in LA and anduh and I caught a Clippers game
on the radio, and I think IanEagle was the was their
play-by-play guy for years,which I was unaware of.
You know, I mean I knew ChickHearn and I knew what the Lakers
(05:04):
did, but I just didn't I'dwatched the Clippers, but I
didn't listen on the radio.
And I heard him, and I waslike, this is the greatest
basketball broadcaster I've everheard.
My life, this guy's amazing,and I know how incredibly hard
it is to basically keep you passto pass into it without
sounding like you're justoverloading people with details
and and getting this and uh, youknow, what I think a lot of
(05:25):
broadcasters miss on, and I canbe a tough watch, but as you
just heard, I'll praise peoplewho are great at it all the
time.
But I uh uh like he heunderstood immediately what was
more important than the otherthing.
Right, right?
Like, and that's a thing, athing that some broadcasters
don't get.
Look, it's a super hard job.
So if you're competent at it,in a sense, you're great.
(05:46):
It's hard to even get competentat it.
Tim Millard (05:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, since you are a sportsfan, uh I I have to just slip in
a quick question about favoritesports film, baseball film.
Ben Mankiewicz (05:56):
I love Field of Dreams.
I do.
Um uh I I think I probably Imight like Bull Durham more as a
movie because it's so engagingand funny, and you know, and and
and Tim Robbins and SusanSarandon are so great in Robert
Wool.
And I'm I'm leaving Costner outbecause I think his his
greatness is obvious actually.
He's sensational, but uh I dohate his speech about the things
(06:17):
he loves.
Like that's pretty painful, theone that wins Susan Sarandon
over.
Uh that's a but I but I lovethe movie and and and Ron
Shelton knows how to make asports movie.
But but when I saw uh I wasvery close to my father, and we
were baseball fans together.
I became a baseball fan inlarge part because I mean simply
because my dad was, but in1976, well, 75 first, I I was
(06:40):
not baseball.
I was eight years old.
Baseball was boring.
I loved football, I lovedbasketball.
I grew up in DC and I loved thefootball team, I loved the
Washington Bullets.
We went a lot.
First game I remember going to,of anything, was going to see
the Bullets.
Baseball, there was no team,and it was boring.
And then the 1975 World Serieshappened, the Red Sox and the
Reds.
I hadn't followed at all.
I don't know who these teamsare.
And my cousins, my dad'ssister's kids were visiting, and
(07:03):
they're both two, they're twoand four years older, and I
idolized them.
And they were watching theWorld Series with my father, and
they were glued to the TV andinto it.
That great seven-game series.
You know, game six called Fiskhome run, but game seven was a
thrilling game, too, that theReds won to win 4-3.
And I just remember seeing thembond, and I thought, oh, this
(07:25):
is never happening again.
Like, I am not permitting this.
I I am going to I am gonna bondwith my father over this.
And so I willed myself to be abaseball fan in 1976, and I
picked the Oakland A's becauseReggie Jackson had been there,
and even though he was traded tothe Orioles right before the
start of the season, theOrioles, and so my first
baseball game was seeing theOrioles and the uh Cleveland
(07:46):
Indians uh in Baltimore.
But but even though Reggie wasthere, I'd still sort of
committed to the A's, and thenin 1977, the A's got this great
rookie, Mitchell Page, and hehad an incredible rookie year,
one of the best rookie years ofthe 70s, and I uh and I was just
I picked him and I was sold.
I was hooked at 10, and thatwas it.
I've been an A's fan my entirelife, and I willed myself to be
a baseball fan, and then itreally took hold in in 77.
(08:09):
Yeah.
So then in Field of Dreams, I II saw Field of Dreams out
in '88, in I think it was '88with uh uh my girlfriend who
lived in San Francisco and uh inMarin County, and I went and
saw the thing with her, and I'mweeping because it's got the
father and the son, the playingcatch, and I'm super close to my
dad or was and and I call himthe next morning because I saw
it at night.
(08:29):
He's back in DC, so I can'tcall him when I finish the movie
because it's like one o'clockin the morning in DC.
So I call him in the morningand I go, hey Pop, uh listen, I
saw Field of Dreams last night.
And before I could sayanything, he goes, Oh my God.
Like, what a piece of crap,right?
I mean, if they build it, buildwhat?
Who will come?
Who are they really talkingabout this whole time?
Oh my god, I'm so dull, right?
(08:49):
Oh my god, why are peoplemaking such a fuss?
And I'm like, uh, yeah, right,totally, totally.
Same thing, right?
I was like crushed because Iwas ready to have this moment
with him.
And then later, because he'ssuch a great, he was such a
great guy, he didn't, he waslike, No, what are you talking
about?
I loved it.
I thought about you and howclose you were.
But like he was uh, but man,that was Field.
(09:11):
But I love, I I do love Fieldof Dreams.
And um, I when I when a cornymovie sticks the corness, it's
pretty great.
Tim Millard (09:19):
Yeah, and and you know, you get older.
I just showed the the film tomy daughter for the first time,
you know, because we're you knowshe's playing softball and we
we watched all the kids' films,and now I'm introducing her to
some of the more adult uh uhsports films about baseball.
And and I mean, I just uh youget so nostalgic, you know, you
get older and you just think thepeople you've lost, like, you
(09:40):
know, my father's not here.
And these these films speak toyou, you know.
Ben Mankiewicz (09:43):
It's just yeah, I mean, sports films are like
sports films and science fictionfilms to me uh share a
descriptor at least.
Like they're hard to do well,very hard to do well.
But when they do them well,they're great.
Yeah.
Right.
So I you know, I don't lovescience fiction films.
But then I in fact I evenhesitate to see them sometimes
(10:04):
until you see a great one andyou're like, oh wow.
Yeah, that was incredibly cool.
And then I talk about it and Ifeel and so when a sports film
lands, there are many of them,most of them are bad.
Uh they they really land.
I just saw one I it turned outI really hadn't seen that I
thought I'd seen.
I saw it because I did aninterview in with Noah Wiley
from The Pit.
Um, he came in and he's kind ofprogrammed two movies for us,
(10:25):
TCM, part of our two-for-oneseries.
We bring in a director or anactor on a on a Saturday night,
and they program a doublefeature.
And one of the films he pickedwas Inside Moves with John
Savage and David Morse.
Uh, Richard Donner directs thebasketball movie where the we
see the like 1979, 80 GoldenState Warriors there, like
Clifford Ray, who beat theBullets in 1975, swept the
(10:47):
bullets with the Warriors.
Uh, like he's got lines in it.
Anyways, I loved that movie.
It's really good.
Everybody should check out ifthey haven't seen Inside Moves
from 1980.
It's uh it's definitely worthseeing a great basketball movie.
Tim Millard (10:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, you're talking my era.
I was in uh a huge SeattleSupersonic fan, late 70s.
They lose games between theBullets and the Sonics.
Ben Mankiewicz (11:07):
Yeah, sure.
78 and 79 NBA championship.
I couldn't believe the Bulletslost in 79.
Like they were so much better.
Like that was, I mean, theywere so much better than they'd
been in 78 and they'd won in 78.
unknown (11:16):
Yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (11:16):
But they were the best team in the league in
79, and they won game one uhover the Sonics, blew a big
lead, but won by one or twopoints, and then the Sonics like
steamrolled them the next fourgames.
Tim Millard (11:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we have a lot of uh TCMfans, and uh they probably
clicked off because we'retalking sports here, but hey,
we'll we'll bring it back toTCM.
I think you you must be one ofthe longest tenured folks there
at TCM because you started backin what 2003.
Ben Mankiewicz (11:41):
Yeah, so I've uh I'm hit I've hit 22 years.
Um I think I started in July, Ishot in July to air in over
Labor Day weekend.
I made my debut on the airLabor Day weekend in 2003.
So next year, whether you wantto call it July or September for
my 23rd anniversary, uh I willhave been on the air at TCM
(12:04):
longer than Robert Osborne, uh,which is uh stunning to me.
You know, he was there from 23years basically until the
channel signed on until he died,but his last appearance, you
know, would not have quite made23 years.
So sometime in the next yearI'll I'll have been there longer
than Robert, which is uh Ithat's quite a I it's not so
(12:25):
much quite quite anaccomplishment, but it's a it's
it's amazing to me that that'shappened and and uh you know
preserve his his legacy.
Yeah.
Uh you know, it feels like a itfeels like a job that has some
weight and responsibility to it,which doesn't happen a lot in
television.
Tim Millard (12:42):
Yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (12:42):
So I'm I'm glad.
I'm trying not to overstate it.
I I know it's just a job, I'mjust a cable basic cable TV
host, but uh, you know, uhRobert made this job something
that that mattered to people andthe channel matters to people
in a way that you know I I don'tthere's not another cable
channel that matters to peoplelike that.
There just isn't.
It doesn't I've said thisbefore too, but I like saying
(13:04):
it.
You know, if you asked, you youmeet somebody and you're like,
hey, so well, you know, what doyou watch?
What you got a show you like?
And the person goes, Oh, Iwatch every anything on ABC.
You'd be like, Yeah.
That's an insane thing to say.
Right.
It's even insane to say I loveHBO, right?
Yeah.
You don't love HBO, you lovemaybe many HBO shows, right?
(13:25):
Right.
You know, but nobody likes achannel, nobody likes Showtime,
which doesn't exist anymore, Idon't think.
Uh you know, somebody mightlove a news channel, but that's
lame, and that's not reallytelevision.
Tim Millard (13:36):
Right.
Yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (13:37):
TCM feels like part of the fabric of someone's
being to our fans.
So look, I get most peopledon't know what it is and don't
watch it.
So I'm not trying to overstateit, but the people who watch it,
they care and they care deeply.
So you'll see things on socialmedia where somebody will be
like, it's pretty regularly, youknow.
I'm a you know, I'm a mom, I'ma lawyer, wife, dog owner, TCM
(13:57):
fan.
Yeah.
Like that's the things thatthey sort of identify with.
And that's a that's uh that'sun incredibly unusual for a for
a TV channel.
Why do you think that is?
I think because I'm I know why.
I'm certain now why.
I mean it's a big answer, butuh because we connect people to
others and mostly to ourhistory.
Right?
I mean these these movies,they're movies, but they're
(14:20):
first of all, they're littlethey're little mini
documentaries and that even ifit's shot on a studio lot,
getting a sense of how peopledressed, how people talked, cars
they drove, what the worldlooked like in nineteen
thirty-eight, forty-eight,fifty-eight, sixty-eight.
Right.
Um but mostly what it does isit connects us to nostalgia.
And I you know it's funny,we're talking about sports,
(14:41):
which is sort of also big onnostalgia.
But nostalgia is not uh hihanging an Oakland A's pennant
or a Seattle Supersonicspennant.
By the way, we're both fans ofteams that left, which is
terrible.
Terrible, terrible thing.
And the Sonics belong inSeattle and the A's belong in
Oakland.
Um, but nostalgia is not apennant.
Nostalgia is uh is an emotion,or at least it connects us to
(15:05):
emotions.
So that channel connects peopleto their parents, to brothers
and sisters, to grandparents.
You know, if your dad was a bigWestern fan, was always
watching Westerns, you're gonnasit there and you're gonna watch
a Western, and you even if youdon't even know the movie,
you're gonna think, but my dadloved this movie.
You know, this kind of movie mydad would have loved.
(15:26):
And that's a powerful thing.
And it gives people a feelingof uh even before the world it's
funny, we signed on the air in1994, which is really when when
I would say this we may be in anew era now, but when politics
started to fall apart in Americaand uh and the manner in which
we sort of talked to and abouteach other um change, started to
(15:49):
change pretty dramatically.
Sort of, you know, led by ledby Newt Gingrich.
And uh that's when TCM signedon the air.
So it's always been this sortof respite.
Doesn't mean we don't talkabout politics, because politics
and Hollywood are you know,they're woven together and
always have been.
But the channel is a escapefrom that sort of thing.
Even if we're gonna put somemovie in some political context,
(16:10):
even if we're gonna talk aboutthe blacklist at the beginning
of a movie, right?
Um, and whether it wasblacklisted people involved or
whether it's, you know, whetherit's putting in the w on the
waterfront in a in a blacklistcontextual context, it's still
not gonna stop you.
That we're talking for two anda half minutes, you're still
gonna enjoy the film.
As I always say, like, youknow, I, you know, Ilya Kazan
(16:31):
made that movie as an as a meansto show that sometimes you you
have to turn sometimes you haveto turn in people you care
about.
Sometimes you have to think onpeople, you know, and as I
always want to say, and it's aninteresting point of view to
take.
I just think if I had friendswho were throwing people off the
tops of buildings, yeah, Iwould turn them in.
(16:53):
If they'd gone to a CommunistParty meeting in 1935 when
capitalism had failed, uh, Iwould not turn them in.
Right.
Like it's an enormousdifference.
Um like Kazan is convenientlyfinding a way out as a means of
it, and I find that a veryirritating argument that he
made.
But I love on the waterfront.
I can still love it.
(17:14):
It's okay, you know.
Tim Millard (17:15):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you have a unique vantagepoint, you know, where you sit,
and uh, you know, you'retalking about why people are so
passionate about TCM or classicfilms.
Uh, do you do you think thatinterest is increasing or
declining?
Ben Mankiewicz (17:30):
Or I don't know.
We don't, you know, we don'tget ratings, which is one of the
reasons why people love us somuch, right?
Because we don't get ratingsbecause we don't have
commercials.
Right.
Um They don't love us becausewe don't get ratings.
They don't know we don't getratings.
They love us because we don'thave commercials.
But because we havecommercials, we don't get
traditional ratings.
And so, you know, we've done uhwe've spent a lot of money over
the years, various uh, youknow, every five I'm making it
(17:51):
up now, but in every five yearsor so, big research project
shows where our audience is, whoour audience is, you know, the
things you would you would learnfrom aver for advertisers, but
in this case we're learning sowe can figure out our way
forward into this world ofstreaming.
Obviously, that's gonna be partof our future, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Uh thankfully, cable is uh itmay be dying, but it's not dead.
And it's not gonna be dead inthe immediate future.
(18:14):
And that's where all ourrevenue is derived from from
cable subscribers right now, oralmost all our revenue.
But we do these and there'sjust shows that there's no
weakening of our audience.
And obviously, from the momentwe signed on the air in 1994, I
got there in 2003, the momentbefore we signed on the air
then, and with it in 1994 and2003, and and now, you know, we
(18:36):
have a older audience than mostpeople, although no older really
than than the news channels,younger in fact, than the news
channels.
Like our audience is definitelyyounger than Fox News, but it's
still a slightly olderaudience.
And it seems obvious thatpeople age into us, which is
weird, but because they wouldn'thave grown up loving classic
(18:58):
movies, but something happenswhen you turn 46, yeah, and all
of a sudden, you know, a blackand white movie doesn't feel
like something you can't watch.
And uh, you know, Casablancameans more to you.
If you you know for a casualmovie fan, Casablanca is going
to mean more to them at 46 thanit did to them at 26.
It appears, you know, and I'musing Casablanca both as literal
(19:21):
and a metaphor for for all sortof great, great classic films.
So I don't know what it is, butyou know, and and then you
know, we see at the festival,you know, how many young people
watch the channel.
And I think as filmmaking hasopened up to the you know, it's
hard to get some obviously it'shard to get mid mid-priced
movies made.
I mean, you know, the saying isit's not quite true, but it
(19:41):
gives you some idea of where weare in Hollywood that you can
you can make a movie for threemillion or you can make a movie
for 300 million and not much inbetween, right?
Leaves out a lot of movies foradults now.
I've massively oversimplifiedit, but because there's
certainly some movies, mid-rangemovies that get made, but not
as many, and so many of thosestories are ending up on on
television.
(20:02):
But so it's hard to get thosemovies produced in the same
sense in a theatrical release.
But you know, these kids now,when they shoot digitally and
cheaply, that you can make amovie for not a lot of money,
and it might be great if youknow what you're doing and you
got a great story, right?
You've got a first and foremostgreat script and a sense of uh
purpose from the director andsome good actors.
(20:23):
You you'll you'll makesomething that could be
interesting.
But you're not in that thing,you're not gonna, it's not gonna
be you're not gonna rely onincredibly expensive computer
graphics packages.
You're not gonna have ahelicopter crash into a building
and blow up, right?
Right.
You're gonna have peopletalking to each other.
It's gonna be a people story.
People falling in love, uh,people hating each other, people
(20:44):
doing terrible things to eachother, people seeking
redemption.
And those stories you're gonnafind in, you know, over the you
know, 40 years of classicHollywood.
So I I think that that that hasclearly happened too.
Tim Millard (20:56):
That brings up a unique uh point.
You said you'd kind of age intoit.
And I feel like I've done that,you know.
Um part of it is when you havekids too, and you the way you
connect your parents uh overfilms and TV special and holiday
films and all that.
And then now you have your ownkids and you're like, what are
we gonna watch?
Uh it's a holiday.
Yeah, oh, let's go back to someof the old favorites, you know.
I mean, there's new filmscoming out all the time as well,
(21:18):
but uh, if you really love as afamily to watch films or TV
shows, you're gonna want tostart to go back as well.
Ben Mankiewicz (21:24):
Yeah, we're we'll we watch Christmas in
Connecticut every year.
My daughter loves it.
She's programming it next monthin December on TCM, part of our
kids' fans that uh that we'redoing, I think, over the course
of four weeks in uh in uh inDecember.
Um yeah, it's gonna be nice,you know.
And I mean it's you know, we'llwatch Christmas in Connecticut,
we'll watch It's a WonderfulLife, you know, we'll watch Elf.
(21:45):
Um, you know.
Um like so there's plenty ofgood new Christmas movies too.
I'm Scrooged, I love Scrooged.
I mean, it's not really new,but you know, in our world and
where I think of as new becauseit's 1988.
Well let me ask nearly 50 yearsago.
Tim Millard (21:59):
Yeah, let me ask about let me ask about that
because that feels like a movingtarget, the the definition of
classic film.
Ben Mankiewicz (22:04):
Yeah, so uh everybody asked that.
I don't mean to I'm notdisparaging the question, I
would ask it.
And and uh whatever your answeris, Tim, is uh is fine.
Like you can define it howeveryou want, and we like that there
is no answer for it.
So part of the answer is we candefinitely say, you know, very
simply, any movie made inHollywood during the studio era,
(22:29):
right?
Which started end in the 1950sbut really came up.
So basically any movie madebefore 1967 is a classic movie.
But that doesn't mean that it'sa good movie by any stretch of
the imagination, which is partof the problem with the word
classic, which feels like acompliment and is meant as a
compliment a lot of the times,but it's also also just means
from an era that we think of asthe classic, the era of you
(22:53):
know, of classic Hollywood.
So, you know, I think of thatthe studio era from the dawn of
talkies until the 1959.
So uh to me that sort of 30years when the studios were
that's dominant, the studiosdominated, and that's those will
always be part of the answer.
But obviously, then it then youstuff start poking around.
I mean, it's now every movie,you know, I think the greatest
10 years in American movies was1967 and 1976.
(23:17):
So those are all classic filmsthat are released then, and most
of them, many of those in thatera.
Obviously, that I'm not sayingthat there were no great movies
released after that.
There were, I just mean 1977,that's Star Wars.
And that's a that's a differentera.
I'm starting that beginssomething different.
Tim Millard (23:34):
Yeah, it's like the the era the blockbuster kicks
off.
Ben Mankiewicz (23:37):
That's right.
And and and obviously, youknow, you know, also, you know,
it's also then you you got youknow the Deer Hunter and
Apocalypse Now and Inside Moves.
All these movies I love.
It's not in the shining,because we're not we're not
ending great film, you know, butthose movies feel like those
movies I just named, thosemovies feel more like movies
that were made from 1967 to 76,even though they they populate
(24:01):
after that.
So, you know, I mean, all thosemovies to me are obviously
classic films, and thenobviously some movies can become
a classic film right away.
What I love most about theanswer to that question, and
obviously I don't really have ananswer, that's why I keep
talking, um, is that uhfrequently you'll see people
define a classic movie as amovie that aired on TCM.
So then now sort of we get todecide what a classic.
(24:22):
We know we aired the the Lordof the Rings trilogy, I think
just one time.
Maybe, no, probably more thanonce.
We did it, you know, we and wewe wouldn't do it regularly,
mostly because we can't affordit, right?
But we got it for uh 31 Days ofOscar the first time, the sort
of month-long series of filmsthat we do leading up to the
Academy Awards and the monthbefore the Academy Awards.
(24:44):
We've done that for more than20 years.
Or we just put them in, youknow, we we you know, we and we
could do a lineup of films overa a day or a month of uh uh
fictional fantasy locations,right?
And that might warrant showingone of the Lord of the Rings
movies.
And those movies are great,obviously.
They're they're you know, thethe they won, I think, combined,
(25:06):
nearly maybe more than 30Oscars, uh, the three films in
the trilogy.
So those are obviously worthyof us showing.
It's just that nor they'reyou're basically too expensive
for us when we have a limitedbudget to acquire films to
license films, and you can'tjust say, like, oh great, let's,
you know, that's why we don'tshow, we've shown The Godfather
so infrequently.
(25:26):
It's because it's it's hard toget.
Yeah.
Right.
You know, some of these moviesthat people complain that we
don't show.
I'm like, we can't.
Sometimes it's a legal issuethat's tied up, right?
For some reason, someinexplicably films that you'd
think would all everybody wouldwant to be seen and and aren't
that expensive, but they'restill tied up in rights issues,
so we can't get them.
And other things are we have,you know, we have the bulk of
(25:47):
our budget is spent on licensingfilms, but we have we
ultimately have a budget.
And you know, so we can't getsome stuff.
Tim Millard (25:54):
Yep.
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting that uhthat TCM has kind of become uh a
go-to for that that definitionbecause you can always hear
complaints.
You can hear some peoplecomplain about the definition if
it's too recent in their mind.
And of course it depends on theage you are to some extent.
But you know, we're already in2025.
I mean, we're already 25 yearsinto this next century, and uh
(26:17):
the the films I grew up with arenow considered by many
classics.
That's right.
And then some people wouldwrite films from the 80s, and
you know, it's it's like, wow,okay, well, they're a classic to
me.
Sure.
Like, I mean, I just in thedefinition of what I think of
classic being Casablanca era.
No, not really.
Ben Mankiewicz (26:34):
Right, but I just like I mentioned Scrooge,
like that's a good example.
Like, I have to catch myself.
Like, of course, there's noquestion that people think
Scrooge is from another era,because it was.
Like, you know, and we're doingthis with the holidays, what
I'm talking about.
And I think, you know, and I'mI'm uh I love Bill Murray.
And so yeah, I and Scrooge is agreat film.
And I oh it's two RichardDonner films that I'm mentioning
here, Inside Moves and Scrooge.
(26:55):
But yeah, it's 37 years old,right?
But I still think that's notwhat I mean when I think of as a
great classic film, but I I getwhy I get why people would.
Tim Millard (27:04):
I'll leap to the TCM festival for for uh a minute
here.
But to be able to bring peoplelike John Williams or Steven
Spielberg or Yes Corsese or tothe festival, these are people
who they talk about their theirview of classic film, the ones
they grew up with, but there'snow generations and they're at
the age where you want tocelebrate them and their films.
Oh, no question.
(27:25):
While they're alive, whilethey're still making them, you
know what I mean?
And uh and so you can look andsay, well, Spielberg, I mean,
his career is so vast, his earlyfilms fall into to that classic
category, The Jaws, becausethat's a 50-year-old movie.
Ben Mankiewicz (27:39):
Jaws is a 50-year-old movie, yeah.
Tim Millard (27:42):
You know, it's not.
But you you you still want tokind of expand that definition,
I think, if you're TCM, right,so that you can celebrate these
uh these photos.
Ben Mankiewicz (27:50):
Yeah, and Steven and and and Martin Scorsese,
those guys you know, who've beensuch a huge help to us um over
the last three years, and reallylike unbelievable help to us,
two and a half years.
Amazing what these guys havedone to to keep us uh strong and
and and where we ought to be.
And 'cause you know, we weasked basically we've been
(28:13):
asking our bosses to treat usdifferently than a regular
channel.
And it took a little bit ofconvincing, but g God bless our
bosses too, they did it.
They heard it, they heard it.
And uh would they have heard itwithout Spielberg and Scorsese
and Paul Thomas Anderson?
I don't know, but they heardit.
And it's pretty unusual forpowerful people who've already
(28:34):
made a decision to unmake it,and they did.
They unf they unfired someexecutives and they they they
they listened.
It's great.
I can't I couldn't respect thepeople I work for more for that.
Tim Millard (28:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (28:44):
Um it's such it's so rare.
Tim Millard (28:46):
So uh well, I I don't know how much we can we
can get into this, but we doknow that it's been announced
that the the Warner Brothers issplitting into two companies.
Yeah.
Do you know where TCM kind offalls into or or how much you
can talk about there?
Ben Mankiewicz (29:00):
Uh I do.
I don't actually know whetherit's out yet, but but I mean the
uh so no, I guess.
But but we're in a really we'rein a good place.
And uh um so uh and uh I'm I'mI'm pleased by that.
Um and once again, these theseguys have helped us and they
(29:21):
they've stood up for us, and youknow, we're a movie channel,
and you know, Warner Brothersmakes movies.
So uh that's great.
Tim Millard (29:27):
That's well, there's a lot of consternation
among the listeners and the fansof you of TCM, you know, that
that that they want to be surethat TCM continues and and uh is
available.
And I know that when you youknow when you go on to HBL Max,
there is a nice presence thereof the classic films that has
really grown from the earlydays.
It has, it has, branded andeverything, and I like I like
(29:50):
seeing that.
Ben Mankiewicz (29:51):
So that's good.
Yeah, there's a hub there, andthat we're grateful for the hub,
really grateful.
It's it's been great.
Um, as people could probablytell, we don't really program
it.
Like so they the HBO Max peopleand they're you know they're
really good at what they do,really good.
I mean, every time I sort ofbounce around streaming
services, and obviously there'sshows that I watch, you know.
I mean, I watch Landman onParamount and Tulsa King, and uh
(30:15):
but Taylor Sheridan has a veryclear idea of what makes a good
television show.
Guy's got it, that guy has agreat sense.
And I love Billy Bob Thornton.
I like Sylvester Stallone too,but Billy Bob, really
exceptional actor.
So Sly's really great actor,too, it turns out.
Tim Millard (30:29):
I mean, I say it turns out, but if you saw Rocky,
he started starting off as a asa writer, too.
You know, yeah, totally.
Ben Mankiewicz (30:36):
He knows how to do it.
That on himself.
I love I love Sly.
I love that guy.
And uh Billy Bob Thornton justhappens to be one of my favorite
actors.
So in and Landman's reallygood.
But every time I end up on HBO,I'm like, this is the best one.
It's just the best.
It's got, you know, this isthis is still feels like the one
that is this is for movies.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right?
Tim Millard (30:55):
This is still I'm biased too, but but I uh the one
I won't give up, I mean, to payfor.
Ben Mankiewicz (31:00):
That's right.
I wouldn't that's the it wouldbe if I had to keep one, there's
no question.
I wouldn't.
I'd give up Netflix, I'd giveup everything before.
I'd give up uh before I give upHBO.
Tim Millard (31:09):
And and you know, I pay for a lot of streamers, and
there's a number of streamersthat I'll go on and I'll put you
know on hold for a while justbecause I I feel I'm good.
Ben Mankiewicz (31:17):
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
Tim Millard (31:19):
But but because of uh of the kind of the depth of
what's on HBO Max, I I I alwayskeep that one active.
So well I know that uh you alsohave podcasts uh that you do.
So there's that's the part ofthe TCM network.
Uh you've got the plot thickensand talking pictures.
What what led you kind of downinto the deciding to do the
(31:39):
podcast?
Ben Mankiewicz (31:40):
Well, I worked in radio for a long time.
I wanted to do podcasts for along time.
So I mean, I'm a in a sense,I'm a spearhead of the fact that
we have a podcast because I Idid I I don't advocate for
myself very effectively or veryoften, but I wanted that.
But that's the extent of myresponsibility for why those are
good.
Like what we have on or atleast in terms of the plot
(32:00):
thickens, was not my idea ofwhat we would be doing with a
podcast.
And I'm so fortunate that therewere other people whose voices
were heard because you know, ourfirst season of the Plot
Thickens, it's a narrativepodcast.
We've done six seasons so far.
We're working on the seventhseason as we speak uh
announcement for that'll come inthe early part of next year,
the first third of the year.
(32:21):
So we started with PeterBogdanovich, and Peter and I
were friends, and I was so inthe sense that we did Peter,
that was my idea to do Peter,but I had a whole different
idea.
Um, and then as we werefleshing out that idea, our our
sort of director of podcast,Angela Carone, said, I think the
story isn't the people Peterhas interviewed, and those
filmmakers, which is what wewere going to do, like Peter and
(32:43):
Howard Hawks, and Peter andAlfred Itchcock, Peter and John
Ford, Peter and Lewis Milestone,that kind of thing.
So what it turned out to be wasPeter and Peter's life.
Like Peter was the story.
And that was all that was notmy idea.
And it was great.
And it just sort of then, and Ihave uh uh the our storytelling
team is amazing, and and thenwe just went on from there, and
(33:07):
we did a season on the Devil'sCandy that was with Julie
Solomon.
I was slightly less involved inthat one, but it was still a
great season, and then we didLucille Ball, season on Lucille
Ball, season on Pam Greer,season on John Ford, and a
season on Cleopatra, which wejust finished, which was I think
our I mean, they've all beengood, but it was sort of our
most, I don't know if it was ourbest, but I think it was our
(33:27):
best.
Uh, and that was a littleinteresting for me because it
was a really the the star of itwas Joe Mankowitz, sort of
looking at at what that did tomy uncle Joe.
And it was quite something.
I'm super grateful to a coupleof my cousins, Nick Davis and
Alex Mankowitz, for making stuffavailable.
Alex is Joe's son, and Nick,like me, is you know, Joe's our
(33:48):
great uncle, our grandfather'sbrother.
Nick had written a book aboutJoe and Herman Mankowitz called
uh Competing with Idiots, and heshared a bunch of his audio
recordings and and andinformation that he'd found and
couldn't include in the book,directed us to stuff.
It was great.
So and it was fun to work withfamily and so yeah, and and I
think that uh, you know, theCleopatra means something, and
it's mostly negative, right?
(34:09):
Most expensive movie ever made,biggest flop ever, nearly
wrecked the studio, and and outof control, Elizabeth Taylor.
And it turns out, other than itbeing the most expensive movie
ever at the time, none of thosethings are true.
Like, it went into the blackwithin two and a half years of
its release.
Uh, Elizabeth Taylor, I mean,it would have been the most
(34:31):
expensive ever made with orwithout Elizabeth Taylor,
whether she made a million orseven million.
I mean, yeah, she stayed in herone of her villas, you know,
sometimes too long, and and butshe got legitimately sick and
nearly died twice.
Once before Cleopatra and thenonce later, uh early on in
Cleopatra.
And so, like, and everybody gotsick, and it wasn't just her.
(34:53):
So, and she's great and shedelivers, and the movie's not
that bad.
It's not so not certainly notthe worst movie ever.
Right.
So, and it didn't wreck thestudio, and it made money, and
it wasn't Elizabeth Taylor'sfault.
And it's pretty good.
Yeah.
Um, so it was that was fun todo, and uh, I invite people to
listen to that.
And then I do another podcastcalled Talking Pictures, which
is me talking with directors andactors, filmmakers, about the
(35:14):
movies, about why they whatmovies they love, why they love
them.
Tim Millard (35:19):
That's the interview, that's the interview
style podcast, and uh then theother one is the deep dive.
unknown (35:24):
Yeah.
Tim Millard (35:24):
I mean, I I I like them both because, you know,
one, you're talking to livingpeople, and you're getting you
know, you're getting their theirthoughts and ideas and and and
history and all their lifeexperience and everything.
Going back to the Cleopatra, Imean, there's so many things in
there that you don't know thatyou, as a listener, that you you
find out.
But um, I mean, I love thewhole the whole kind of like
(35:46):
Elizabeth Taylor just kind ofthrowing out a number, you know,
that just seems impossible.
Ben Mankiewicz (35:51):
Yeah.
Right.
She she didn't really want todo it, right?
She's sitting in her bathtub.
Tim Millard (35:55):
Yeah.
The bathtub.
Yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (35:56):
And she's talking on the phone to to
Walter Wanger, who wants her toplay Cleopatra.
It's the only person he wantsto play Cleopatra.
He produced it.
Yeah.
And she says to her husband,then Eddie Fisher, who of course
she would leave duringCleopatra for Richard Bird.
She says to him, Um, yeah, Itell him, Yeah, fine, I'll do
it.
She's been harassing her,calling, calling.
Fine, I'll do it.
Tell her to do it for a milliondollars.
That's like 1959 or 1960.
(36:19):
And uh and uh the milliondollars.
And the Wanger's like, I'llcall you back.
And then he checks with thestudio and they're like, okay.
Yep.
And then the studio, by theway, did a great uh thing that
that uh it probably is a is afrom a marketing point of view
and from a business point ofview, is probably should be
taught in every film school.
She said yes.
They were so excited toannounce Elizabeth Taylor, the
(36:41):
most beautiful woman in theworld, you know, as she was
routinely thought of then, andby the way, she might have been,
um, would play Cleopatra, themost beautiful woman who ever
lived, right?
You know, that was the sort ofhook.
And so she'd said she'd do it,and they announced it.
And they gave her a big fakecheck for a million dollars, you
know, like a prize-winningsweepstakes, and they announced
(37:04):
it.
They did a whole press deal,except they hadn't signed a
contract yet.
So then they announced it.
So then all of a sudden theygave her so much leverage,
right, by making thatannouncement before they had her
actually signed, that then shestarted putting in all the
things that drove up her priceand made it a fun story, you
know, about bringing, you know,bringing the entourage that came
(37:24):
with her and the two villas andall this crazy stuff.
But whatever.
Again, that is not whyCleopatra went went over budget.
But it did set the template andyou know, and she would have
signed it before if they'd madeher.
Tim Millard (37:37):
People have to listen to the podcast to get the
rest of this story here.
Ben Mankiewicz (37:40):
Yeah, it's a great, it's a great, it's a fun
story.
It's a fun story.
Tim Millard (37:43):
I did want to, before we move on from the
podcast, though, I I've reallyenjoyed the John Ford one.
Ben Mankiewicz (37:48):
Oh, yeah, we I liked it too.
That's why I has alwayshesitate to, you know, it's
weird.
I don't like lists.
I mean, I make them sometimes,and I but like as soon as you
don't put something on a list oryou put something eighth
instead of second, you know, itfeels somehow like you've
slighted it, right?
So yeah, I I think that I thinkyeah, I think our podcast has
gotten better every season, andI think they were really good to
(38:09):
start.
And I think there was somethingreally powerful about our first
season on Peter Bogdanovich,who has lived this uh who lived,
you know, he still sort ofcan't believe Peter's gone, but
who lived this incredible lifeof you know being this Wonderkin
director, you know.
I mean, when he made LastPicture Show in 1971, can't
remember if it was Time orNewsweek, said that it was the
(38:30):
greatest American film madesince Citizen Kane.
And by the way, Orson Wellswas, you know, Peter's mentor,
idol.
Yeah.
Peter idolized him.
Yeah, so that went to Peter'shead.
It did.
And then he, by the way, andthen he follows it up with, you
know, uh, what's up, Doc andPaper Moon?
Like an incredible three years.
The first, not his first threefilms.
His first film, Target'sAmazing, too, you know.
But this was what these werehis first films with budgets and
(38:52):
stars.
And uh he, amazing filmmaker.
And then, you know, he got alittle ahead of himself, and you
know, and then he left hiswife, Polly Platt, who was
really instrumental in thosefilms too, product, great
production designer, and he lefther for Sybil Shepherd.
They legitimately fell in love.
I don't want to underplay that.
And, you know, he was sohandsome himself, Peter, and
Sybil's beautiful.
(39:13):
And Cary Grant told Peter, wehave it in our podcast, you
know, stop looking so happy.
Why are you always so happy allthe time?
Nobody likes, nobody likesother people being happy.
Right?
Um, but Peter sort of lookedlike he'd conquered the world
and he made some movies thatweren't that great.
Although St.
Jack, a movie he made in 1979with Ben Gazar, is a great,
(39:34):
great, great, great film thateverybody should see.
And then he had thisunspeakable tragedy happen to
him.
And it it it ruined himpersonally for a while, the
murder of his girlfriend by herstrange husband, Dorothy
Stratton.
And then he tried to save themovie they made together, which
is quite good.
They all laughed, a really niceromantic comedy with John
(39:55):
Ritter and Dorothy Stratton andBen Gazar again, Audrey Happern.
But the Dorothy had beenmurdered and so violently and so
awfully that uh, you know, thestudio was like, it's sort of
nobody's gonna want to see thismovie with this sort of bright
young star.
And Dorothy would have been aat a bare minimum, she would
have been a sitcom star.
And I think she would have beena successful comedy actress.
(40:15):
She really had it.
She was very young.
And uh, and then Peter buys themovie, spends five million
dollars to buy the movie andmarket himself.
You can't do that.
And he lost everything.
Lost everything.
And he lost everything againwhen he sued the studio eight
years later for mask becausethey wanted to replace Bruce
Springsteen's music with BobSeegers because it was cheaper.
Like, and he screwed up againand he liked, don't stop, you
(40:39):
know.
But then he sort of came backagain and and he was so
respected by all these youngfilmmakers who adore him.
Wes Anderson adores him, NoahBaumbach adores him, you know.
Um Peter's really was specialand he loves classic movies and
he was humbled by life.
And I I don't know, I lovedhim.
Tim Millard (40:57):
Yeah, that's a great, that's a great that's the
first one I listened to.
I mean, of the series.
I've become a fan of like bookson tape, partly because I love
podcasts and uh these thesethese are stories you're
telling, you know, over thecourse of what how many episodes
you have, what?
Ben Mankiewicz (41:10):
Anywhere from we did one season was 10, anywhere
from six to ten.
Tim Millard (41:14):
Yeah, yeah, and and it just becomes like this
fantastic.
Ben Mankiewicz (41:18):
And then the talking pictures one, right.
Also, we could have 10, 12other.
That's just me talking topeople who love movies about
movies.
Like, so you know, it's alsobeen great.
Tim Millard (41:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, uh one one of the thingsabout TCM that I appreciate, you
know, you come we're coming tothe end of the year.
And kind of the sad part of theend of the year is the in
memoriam.
But um, but I think that TCM,you know, you guys do the best
in terms of putting outsomething that really
encompasses a broader, and Iknow you don't have the same
(41:46):
limitations that maybe theOscars have or something, you
know.
Ben Mankiewicz (41:49):
Yeah, we can go longer.
Tim Millard (41:50):
You can go longer a little bit more, and but just
the ability to get the clipsthat you're able to get from the
films and to to to showcasethem and everything.
But I also like the ones thatyou're populating now during the
year as well.
Like we just lost, you know,Dan Keaton, Robert Redford.
I mean, there's so many amazinguh um actors we've lost this
(42:11):
year.
Ben Mankiewicz (42:11):
Um but tell me about the yeah.
Yeah, and you for Gene Hackmanalso this year at the beginning
of the year.
Yeah.
Tim Millard (42:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Tell me a little bit about thethe those and uh and how they've
become so popular.
Ben Mankiewicz (42:21):
And so there's a there's a secret magic to those
videos or in memoriums, whichwe do every year.
And again, the academy isrestricted by time.
Tim Millard (42:29):
Yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (42:30):
I think the academy now, I mean, they should
release a longer one, you know,to kind of like online, you
know, but but we're sort of thetemplate for that now.
And the secret sauce is uh awoman named Christian Hammond
and a guy named David Byrne,like the talking heads, David
Byrne, and they're producereditors and they work on those,
(42:51):
and they're amazing.
And they're just they're sotalented.
Everything they touch is thatChristian and David make for us
is great, and so many of thethings people see on the air and
like, and you're like, yeah,that's Christian and David.
Um, they're amazing and great,great people too.
When we did a on the TCMcruise, it was a karaoke night
where we actually TCM staffersdid karaoke for fans.
(43:13):
So it's weird to do karaokewhen there's literally an
audience.
Um the hosts, and but butChristian who's like reserved
and shy and brilliant, and shecomes out and she's got
sunglasses on and she's dancing.
It was just awesome to see herdo that.
And she enticed our head ofprogramming to come out and play
a fake saxophone.
It was an incredible night.
(43:33):
It was really stunning.
So yeah, we've sort of, again,we everybody at the channel
loves movies and loves movies ina certain way, loves movies in
this really respectful way.
There are some scholars at TCM,no question.
There's some people who werefilm students who can still talk
about film in that way.
But this love of movies is thissort of uh passion and this
(43:58):
eagerness to be blown away andmoved emotionally by movies.
And that's the thing that thatmovies can do still better than
television, which has in manycases never been better.
Tim Millard (44:09):
Yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (44:09):
And I know when people you can criticize it and
there's too much stuff on, and alot of it is junk, but there's
also more great stuff than ever.
It's really amazing what'sbeing produced on television.
That's one reason why therearen't those mid-range movies
for adults.
Those are getting made as youknow, those shows I mentioned,
you know, whether it's, youknow, yellow those Taylor
Sheridan shows, whether it'sYellowstone or 1883 or or or
(44:31):
Tulsa King or Landman, thoselike there was a time when those
would have been movies, right?
And would have been sort ofgreat movie stories.
Yeah.
But now they're serializedtelevision shows.
So uh, you know, we everybodywho works there is uh ha wants
to be moved by movies.
Um this compact, you know,90-minute to two and a half hour
(44:52):
format of sort of that thatthat can, you know, reach inside
you and stir something in youthat that moves you to some
action.
And the action is not likemaybe, you know, I'm not saying
you you instantly go out andstart, you know, volunteering
somewhere or or helping thepeople who need to be helped, it
stirs you to action.
And the the action is crying,the action is connecting you to
(45:14):
feelings that you might nototherwise have been able to find
and identify.
Yeah.
Movies movies are incrediblyspecial and they're they're
they're singular in theirability to do that.
Tim Millard (45:25):
Well you you get older and as as you're going
through life, you're you're busyliving.
And you you're busy watchingmovies, you're busy watching TV,
you're busy.
Years go by, decades go by,quarter century goes by, half a
century goes by, and you realizethat the the way the movies
weave in and out of your life,they they're part of the story.
(45:45):
And then you you watch these inmemoriums sometimes and and to
me, you you're seeing you'reseeing this and and you're
reminded of uh years of yourlife, your times of your life,
people of your life.
It it's the the power of themovie and the actor and the
power of TCM in people's life.
(46:05):
I think why partly why it meansso much to people and uh why
Yeah, I I think you're right.
Ben Mankiewicz (46:11):
I think you're right.
That's uh you know, we uhmovies really can you know and
and it it occurs to me rightnow, and I'm dealing with this
because I got a young kid likeyou do, you know, preteen
daughter and you want her I wanther so badly to slow down.
Right?
Her life is so fast and I don'tmean I want to slow down her
(46:32):
progress.
I'm not one of those parents.
I mean I'm I feel the same way,but I immediately recognize
that this is her life and she'sgotta she's gotta live it.
But she goes fast and shedoesn't recognize it yet.
She will.
Um she's Mark Kidd.
But movies are a way of slowingdown now.
I mean, like, you know, that'sthey aren't watching a 25 minute
(46:55):
show that you can watch ninestraight episodes of or even an
hour-long show where you canlike this is a single story
inside, you know, a reasonablemovie of ninety minutes to two
hours and ten, twenty minutes.
That's an amazing thing now tobe able to take that time and
take in that full story with abeginning, middle, and end, with
(47:16):
a resolution, with somethingthat moves you if it's good in
some way, right?
Whether to joy, to laughter, totears, uh to thinking, right?
To considering what you'veseen.
Um it is a way to slow down.
I'm gonna have to re-emphasizethat.
Why movie nights are soimportant, why movie nights are
so different than family TVnight.
(47:38):
You know, you don't it's notthe same to watch two episodes
of Game of Thrones with thefamily, you know.
Yeah not two episodes of TheSopranos, still the greatest
show ever on television.
Yeah.
Um it's uh it's not the same asas a family night where you
watch whether it's Christmas inConnecticut or you know, out of
(48:00):
sight or um Jay Kelly, somethingcame out last year, you know,
it's the first thing that poppedin my head.
I guess I have George Clooneyon on my mind.
Yeah.
So, you know, uh that that's athat's a that's a full
experience that I think, youknow, I think some parents will
have some success being like,hey, we're gonna have a movie
night, we're gonna watch amovie, we're just gonna have to
sit through it.
But asking my daughter to sitthrough a two-hour one thing is
(48:23):
a challenge.
I don't probably for you two.
Tim Millard (48:25):
Like sometimes I get a, you know, do you want to
watch a movie?
No, not really.
I want to play my game or Iwant to see my YouTube or
whatever.
It's a it's a challenge.
And yeah, what's interesting isgrowing up, my dad was very
restrictive about TV or movies.
He didn't want me to watch toomuch.
Ben Mankiewicz (48:40):
And here I am trying to trying to utter to
more.
But watching one thing, man.
It's uh it it matters.
And we're gonna I'm gonna makesure it happens at least once a
week.
I'd like it to happen twice aweek, but I'll force it once a
week.
Tim Millard (48:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, Ben, it was a pleasurehaving you on.
Thanks for having me.
Ben Mankiewicz (48:55):
Oh, yeah, Tim, I'm sorry I talked so much.
Yeah, but thanks.
Tim Millard (48:57):
No, you know what?
It's a podcast.
People who don't talk arereally bad guests.
Ben Mankiewicz (49:01):
Yeah, though that's true.
It's I mean, it's better totalk too much than too little,
but yeah, it's probablysomething in between.
Appreciate it.
And happy holidays.
Thanks, you too, Tim.
Thanks very much.
Tim Millard (49:10):
Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with
TCM host Ben Mankowitz as muchas I did.
I'll have links in the shownotes to the podcast we
discussed that Ben hosts.
They are terrific.
And if you are a classic filmfan, I think you'll thoroughly
enjoy them if you haven't beenenjoying them yet.
And if you aren't yetsubscribed or following the show
at your favorite podcastprovider, you may want to do
(49:32):
that because we have a lot ofgood shows leading into the end
of the year, and of course we'llhave them at the beginning of
January as well.
So lots of good stuff coming upthat you want to be sure it's
sent to you when you get upright away.
And just as a reminder, you cantext us here at the show and
leave us comments about theepisode.
It's always nice to hear frompeople, so feel free to do that.
(49:54):
Until next time, you've beenlistening to Tim Millard.
Stay slightly obsessed.
Hello and welcome to the Extras.
I'm Tim Millard, your host, andtoday I'm joined by TCM host,
Ben Mankiewicz.
Hey Ben.
Ben Mankiewicz (01:18):
Hey Tim, how are you?
Tim Millard (01:19):
Good, good.
Are you uh getting ready forthe holidays here?
Ben Mankiewicz (01:22):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, we're having a smallThanksgiving.
People keep bailing on us.
Tim Millard (01:27):
Maybe we should have been coming.
I know it's a busy week.
Ben Mankiewicz (01:30):
Maybe we should uh read something into this.
Uh but anyway, it'll be niceand uh it's my favorite holiday
by far.
You know, it's uh you hang outwith people you care about.
You know, nobody has to give agift.
I know.
There's uh there's football inthe middle of the week and the
weekend.
Like it's good.
I love uh I love Thanksgiving.
Tim Millard (01:49):
Yeah, yeah, it's great.
Well, uh I told you earlierwhen I met you that uh I worked
at Warner Home Video for almost14 years, but we never actually
met while I was working therebecause we're very separate
divisions or anything.
We actually met at our daughtersoftball game back in
September.
I remember the the playoffswere going on.
We were talking about that uhas we were watching the game.
(02:11):
But do people know how big of abaseball fan you are?
Ben Mankiewicz (02:15):
I mean, people if they've if they've uh
listened to one of theinterviews I've done, but
basically, no, I don't get it,you know.
I I thought that was going tobe my career.
I thought I was not playing, Iwasn't that foolish, although I,
you know, I played as long as Icould, and then I played
softball as long as I couldalso, but not as much as I
should have.
Like, I love it so much that Ishould have been playing like a
(02:37):
couple times a week.
It's just I love it.
Um, but man, when I hit like35, like I got a lot worse.
Like, you know, I mean, I wasalways good, and then all of a
sudden I'm like, I'm like theseventh best player on this
team.
Tops.
Yeah.
And I was a great outfielder,and all of a sudden I was like,
I am letting balls go over myhead.
Like I lost the ability to um,yeah, I I thought I was gonna be
(03:00):
a baseball broadcaster.
I sort of thought that's whatwas in the cards for me and what
I wanted to do.
And I sort of knew that if Iworked at it, I'd be I'd be
pretty good at it.
Yeah, and like I recognizednow, this is gonna sound uh this
is I'll probably regret this,but uh I would have been great
at it.
Like because when I was comingup, there was a traditional
(03:23):
manner in which broadcasters hadto speak, and and that was
always tricky for me.
But now that you can sort oflet your personality be part of
your presentation, that youdon't have to act like you're a
baseball broadcaster, right?
That there are enough reallygood broadcasters, and I'm sure
some people hate them.
It's obviously a verysubjective business, but but I I
(03:43):
I would have had my own thingand my own sort of very casual
style, and it would have workedenough for some people, and and
I I would have been good at it.
And I could I partly because Ijust would have, you know, I
loved it.
Yeah.
I still do, still lovelistening to baseball on the
radio.
Tim Millard (03:57):
I agree.
I I I think back, you know,when I was in college, when I
went into my broadcast classes,one of the key things I thought
was sports, you know, just interms of a pure interest that I
had as well.
Uh here we are both we talkabout film, but um, and look how
much and and sports is I mean,it's changed.
Ben Mankiewicz (04:14):
I mean, in this era where everything has
changed, and and obviouslysports has too, but in a sense,
sports has become more importantthan it ever was.
I mean, you know, uh everysingle reality show is trying to
capture what sports does, whichis this reality show where you
don't know how it's gonna end.
And that's not you legitimatelydon't know how it's gonna end.
I mean, we can, you know,people can talk about the fix
being in, but it's there's nofix in.
Tim Millard (04:34):
It's it's a great drama, right?
It's great drama, and and we wejust came off this great World
Series game seven, it comesright down to uh extra things.
I mean, there's no dramagreater than that.
Ben Mankiewicz (04:43):
Uh yeah, and and and in football and basketball
too.
I mean, I I you know, I mean, Iremember I was listening to uh
I guess I didn't know I hadn't Ididn't listen to Clippers on
the radio.
I live out here in LA and anduh and I caught a Clippers game
on the radio, and I think IanEagle was the was their
play-by-play guy for years,which I was unaware of.
You know, I mean I knew ChickHearn and I knew what the Lakers
(05:04):
did, but I just didn't I'dwatched the Clippers, but I
didn't listen on the radio.
And I heard him, and I waslike, this is the greatest
basketball broadcaster I've everheard.
My life, this guy's amazing,and I know how incredibly hard
it is to basically keep you passto pass into it without
sounding like you're justoverloading people with details
and and getting this and uh, youknow, what I think a lot of
(05:25):
broadcasters miss on, and I canbe a tough watch, but as you
just heard, I'll praise peoplewho are great at it all the
time.
But I uh uh like he heunderstood immediately what was
more important than the otherthing.
Right, right?
Like, and that's a thing, athing that some broadcasters
don't get.
Look, it's a super hard job.
So if you're competent at it,in a sense, you're great.
(05:46):
It's hard to even get competentat it.
Tim Millard (05:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, since you are a sportsfan, uh I I have to just slip in
a quick question about favoritesports film, baseball film.
Ben Mankiewicz (05:56):
I love Field of Dreams.
I do.
Um uh I I think I probably Imight like Bull Durham more as a
movie because it's so engagingand funny, and you know, and and
and Tim Robbins and SusanSarandon are so great in Robert
Wool.
And I'm I'm leaving Costner outbecause I think his his
greatness is obvious actually.
He's sensational, but uh I dohate his speech about the things
(06:17):
he loves.
Like that's pretty painful, theone that wins Susan Sarandon
over.
Uh that's a but I but I lovethe movie and and and Ron
Shelton knows how to make asports movie.
But but when I saw uh I wasvery close to my father, and we
were baseball fans together.
I became a baseball fan inlarge part because I mean simply
because my dad was, but in1976, well, 75 first, I I was
(06:40):
not baseball.
I was eight years old.
Baseball was boring.
I loved football, I lovedbasketball.
I grew up in DC and I loved thefootball team, I loved the
Washington Bullets.
We went a lot.
First game I remember going to,of anything, was going to see
the Bullets.
Baseball, there was no team,and it was boring.
And then the 1975 World Serieshappened, the Red Sox and the
Reds.
I hadn't followed at all.
I don't know who these teamsare.
And my cousins, my dad'ssister's kids were visiting, and
(07:03):
they're both two, they're twoand four years older, and I
idolized them.
And they were watching theWorld Series with my father, and
they were glued to the TV andinto it.
That great seven-game series.
You know, game six called Fiskhome run, but game seven was a
thrilling game, too, that theReds won to win 4-3.
And I just remember seeing thembond, and I thought, oh, this
(07:25):
is never happening again.
Like, I am not permitting this.
I I am going to I am gonna bondwith my father over this.
And so I willed myself to be abaseball fan in 1976, and I
picked the Oakland A's becauseReggie Jackson had been there,
and even though he was traded tothe Orioles right before the
start of the season, theOrioles, and so my first
baseball game was seeing theOrioles and the uh Cleveland
(07:46):
Indians uh in Baltimore.
But but even though Reggie wasthere, I'd still sort of
committed to the A's, and thenin 1977, the A's got this great
rookie, Mitchell Page, and hehad an incredible rookie year,
one of the best rookie years ofthe 70s, and I uh and I was just
I picked him and I was sold.
I was hooked at 10, and thatwas it.
I've been an A's fan my entirelife, and I willed myself to be
a baseball fan, and then itreally took hold in in 77.
(08:09):
Yeah.
So then in Field of Dreams, I II saw Field of Dreams out
in '88, in I think it was '88with uh uh my girlfriend who
lived in San Francisco and uh inMarin County, and I went and
saw the thing with her, and I'mweeping because it's got the
father and the son, the playingcatch, and I'm super close to my
dad or was and and I call himthe next morning because I saw
it at night.
(08:29):
He's back in DC, so I can'tcall him when I finish the movie
because it's like one o'clockin the morning in DC.
So I call him in the morningand I go, hey Pop, uh listen, I
saw Field of Dreams last night.
And before I could sayanything, he goes, Oh my God.
Like, what a piece of crap,right?
I mean, if they build it, buildwhat?
Who will come?
Who are they really talkingabout this whole time?
Oh my god, I'm so dull, right?
(08:49):
Oh my god, why are peoplemaking such a fuss?
And I'm like, uh, yeah, right,totally, totally.
Same thing, right?
I was like crushed because Iwas ready to have this moment
with him.
And then later, because he'ssuch a great, he was such a
great guy, he didn't, he waslike, No, what are you talking
about?
I loved it.
I thought about you and howclose you were.
But like he was uh, but man,that was Field.
(09:11):
But I love, I I do love Fieldof Dreams.
And um, I when I when a cornymovie sticks the corness, it's
pretty great.
Tim Millard (09:19):
Yeah, and and you know, you get older.
I just showed the the film tomy daughter for the first time,
you know, because we're you knowshe's playing softball and we
we watched all the kids' films,and now I'm introducing her to
some of the more adult uh uhsports films about baseball.
And and I mean, I just uh youget so nostalgic, you know, you
get older and you just think thepeople you've lost, like, you
(09:40):
know, my father's not here.
And these these films speak toyou, you know.
Ben Mankiewicz (09:43):
It's just yeah, I mean, sports films are like
sports films and science fictionfilms to me uh share a
descriptor at least.
Like they're hard to do well,very hard to do well.
But when they do them well,they're great.
Yeah.
Right.
So I you know, I don't lovescience fiction films.
But then I in fact I evenhesitate to see them sometimes
(10:04):
until you see a great one andyou're like, oh wow.
Yeah, that was incredibly cool.
And then I talk about it and Ifeel and so when a sports film
lands, there are many of them,most of them are bad.
Uh they they really land.
I just saw one I it turned outI really hadn't seen that I
thought I'd seen.
I saw it because I did aninterview in with Noah Wiley
from The Pit.
Um, he came in and he's kind ofprogrammed two movies for us,
(10:25):
TCM, part of our two-for-oneseries.
We bring in a director or anactor on a on a Saturday night,
and they program a doublefeature.
And one of the films he pickedwas Inside Moves with John
Savage and David Morse.
Uh, Richard Donner directs thebasketball movie where the we
see the like 1979, 80 GoldenState Warriors there, like
Clifford Ray, who beat theBullets in 1975, swept the
(10:47):
bullets with the Warriors.
Uh, like he's got lines in it.
Anyways, I loved that movie.
It's really good.
Everybody should check out ifthey haven't seen Inside Moves
from 1980.
It's uh it's definitely worthseeing a great basketball movie.
Tim Millard (10:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, you're talking my era.
I was in uh a huge SeattleSupersonic fan, late 70s.
They lose games between theBullets and the Sonics.
Ben Mankiewicz (11:07):
Yeah, sure.
78 and 79 NBA championship.
I couldn't believe the Bulletslost in 79.
Like they were so much better.
Like that was, I mean, theywere so much better than they'd
been in 78 and they'd won in 78.
unknown (11:16):
Yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (11:16):
But they were the best team in the league in
79, and they won game one uhover the Sonics, blew a big
lead, but won by one or twopoints, and then the Sonics like
steamrolled them the next fourgames.
Tim Millard (11:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we have a lot of uh TCMfans, and uh they probably
clicked off because we'retalking sports here, but hey,
we'll we'll bring it back toTCM.
I think you you must be one ofthe longest tenured folks there
at TCM because you started backin what 2003.
Ben Mankiewicz (11:41):
Yeah, so I've uh I'm hit I've hit 22 years.
Um I think I started in July, Ishot in July to air in over
Labor Day weekend.
I made my debut on the airLabor Day weekend in 2003.
So next year, whether you wantto call it July or September for
my 23rd anniversary, uh I willhave been on the air at TCM
(12:04):
longer than Robert Osborne, uh,which is uh stunning to me.
You know, he was there from 23years basically until the
channel signed on until he died,but his last appearance, you
know, would not have quite made23 years.
So sometime in the next yearI'll I'll have been there longer
than Robert, which is uh Ithat's quite a I it's not so
(12:25):
much quite quite anaccomplishment, but it's a it's
it's amazing to me that that'shappened and and uh you know
preserve his his legacy.
Yeah.
Uh you know, it feels like a itfeels like a job that has some
weight and responsibility to it,which doesn't happen a lot in
television.
Tim Millard (12:42):
Yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (12:42):
So I'm I'm glad.
I'm trying not to overstate it.
I I know it's just a job, I'mjust a cable basic cable TV
host, but uh, you know, uhRobert made this job something
that that mattered to people andthe channel matters to people
in a way that you know I I don'tthere's not another cable
channel that matters to peoplelike that.
There just isn't.
It doesn't I've said thisbefore too, but I like saying
(13:04):
it.
You know, if you asked, you youmeet somebody and you're like,
hey, so well, you know, what doyou watch?
What you got a show you like?
And the person goes, Oh, Iwatch every anything on ABC.
You'd be like, Yeah.
That's an insane thing to say.
Right.
It's even insane to say I loveHBO, right?
Yeah.
You don't love HBO, you lovemaybe many HBO shows, right?
(13:25):
Right.
You know, but nobody likes achannel, nobody likes Showtime,
which doesn't exist anymore, Idon't think.
Uh you know, somebody mightlove a news channel, but that's
lame, and that's not reallytelevision.
Tim Millard (13:36):
Right.
Yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (13:37):
TCM feels like part of the fabric of someone's
being to our fans.
So look, I get most peopledon't know what it is and don't
watch it.
So I'm not trying to overstateit, but the people who watch it,
they care and they care deeply.
So you'll see things on socialmedia where somebody will be
like, it's pretty regularly, youknow.
I'm a you know, I'm a mom, I'ma lawyer, wife, dog owner, TCM
(13:57):
fan.
Yeah.
Like that's the things thatthey sort of identify with.
And that's a that's uh that'sun incredibly unusual for a for
a TV channel.
Why do you think that is?
I think because I'm I know why.
I'm certain now why.
I mean it's a big answer, butuh because we connect people to
others and mostly to ourhistory.
Right?
I mean these these movies,they're movies, but they're
(14:20):
first of all, they're littlethey're little mini
documentaries and that even ifit's shot on a studio lot,
getting a sense of how peopledressed, how people talked, cars
they drove, what the worldlooked like in nineteen
thirty-eight, forty-eight,fifty-eight, sixty-eight.
Right.
Um but mostly what it does isit connects us to nostalgia.
And I you know it's funny,we're talking about sports,
(14:41):
which is sort of also big onnostalgia.
But nostalgia is not uh hihanging an Oakland A's pennant
or a Seattle Supersonicspennant.
By the way, we're both fans ofteams that left, which is
terrible.
Terrible, terrible thing.
And the Sonics belong inSeattle and the A's belong in
Oakland.
Um, but nostalgia is not apennant.
Nostalgia is uh is an emotion,or at least it connects us to
(15:05):
emotions.
So that channel connects peopleto their parents, to brothers
and sisters, to grandparents.
You know, if your dad was a bigWestern fan, was always
watching Westerns, you're gonnasit there and you're gonna watch
a Western, and you even if youdon't even know the movie,
you're gonna think, but my dadloved this movie.
You know, this kind of movie mydad would have loved.
(15:26):
And that's a powerful thing.
And it gives people a feelingof uh even before the world it's
funny, we signed on the air in1994, which is really when when
I would say this we may be in anew era now, but when politics
started to fall apart in Americaand uh and the manner in which
we sort of talked to and abouteach other um change, started to
(15:49):
change pretty dramatically.
Sort of, you know, led by ledby Newt Gingrich.
And uh that's when TCM signedon the air.
So it's always been this sortof respite.
Doesn't mean we don't talkabout politics, because politics
and Hollywood are you know,they're woven together and
always have been.
But the channel is a escapefrom that sort of thing.
Even if we're gonna put somemovie in some political context,
(16:10):
even if we're gonna talk aboutthe blacklist at the beginning
of a movie, right?
Um, and whether it wasblacklisted people involved or
whether it's, you know, whetherit's putting in the w on the
waterfront in a in a blacklistcontextual context, it's still
not gonna stop you.
That we're talking for two anda half minutes, you're still
gonna enjoy the film.
As I always say, like, youknow, I, you know, Ilya Kazan
(16:31):
made that movie as an as a meansto show that sometimes you you
have to turn sometimes you haveto turn in people you care
about.
Sometimes you have to think onpeople, you know, and as I
always want to say, and it's aninteresting point of view to
take.
I just think if I had friendswho were throwing people off the
tops of buildings, yeah, Iwould turn them in.
(16:53):
If they'd gone to a CommunistParty meeting in 1935 when
capitalism had failed, uh, Iwould not turn them in.
Right.
Like it's an enormousdifference.
Um like Kazan is convenientlyfinding a way out as a means of
it, and I find that a veryirritating argument that he
made.
But I love on the waterfront.
I can still love it.
(17:14):
It's okay, you know.
Tim Millard (17:15):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you have a unique vantagepoint, you know, where you sit,
and uh, you know, you'retalking about why people are so
passionate about TCM or classicfilms.
Uh, do you do you think thatinterest is increasing or
declining?
Ben Mankiewicz (17:30):
Or I don't know.
We don't, you know, we don'tget ratings, which is one of the
reasons why people love us somuch, right?
Because we don't get ratingsbecause we don't have
commercials.
Right.
Um They don't love us becausewe don't get ratings.
They don't know we don't getratings.
They love us because we don'thave commercials.
But because we havecommercials, we don't get
traditional ratings.
And so, you know, we've done uhwe've spent a lot of money over
the years, various uh, youknow, every five I'm making it
(17:51):
up now, but in every five yearsor so, big research project
shows where our audience is, whoour audience is, you know, the
things you would you would learnfrom aver for advertisers, but
in this case we're learning sowe can figure out our way
forward into this world ofstreaming.
Obviously, that's gonna be partof our future, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Uh thankfully, cable is uh itmay be dying, but it's not dead.
And it's not gonna be dead inthe immediate future.
(18:14):
And that's where all ourrevenue is derived from from
cable subscribers right now, oralmost all our revenue.
But we do these and there'sjust shows that there's no
weakening of our audience.
And obviously, from the momentwe signed on the air in 1994, I
got there in 2003, the momentbefore we signed on the air
then, and with it in 1994 and2003, and and now, you know, we
(18:36):
have a older audience than mostpeople, although no older really
than than the news channels,younger in fact, than the news
channels.
Like our audience is definitelyyounger than Fox News, but it's
still a slightly olderaudience.
And it seems obvious thatpeople age into us, which is
weird, but because they wouldn'thave grown up loving classic
(18:58):
movies, but something happenswhen you turn 46, yeah, and all
of a sudden, you know, a blackand white movie doesn't feel
like something you can't watch.
And uh, you know, Casablancameans more to you.
If you you know for a casualmovie fan, Casablanca is going
to mean more to them at 46 thanit did to them at 26.
It appears, you know, and I'musing Casablanca both as literal
(19:21):
and a metaphor for for all sortof great, great classic films.
So I don't know what it is, butyou know, and and then you
know, we see at the festival,you know, how many young people
watch the channel.
And I think as filmmaking hasopened up to the you know, it's
hard to get some obviously it'shard to get mid mid-priced
movies made.
I mean, you know, the saying isit's not quite true, but it
(19:41):
gives you some idea of where weare in Hollywood that you can
you can make a movie for threemillion or you can make a movie
for 300 million and not much inbetween, right?
Leaves out a lot of movies foradults now.
I've massively oversimplifiedit, but because there's
certainly some movies, mid-rangemovies that get made, but not
as many, and so many of thosestories are ending up on on
television.
(20:02):
But so it's hard to get thosemovies produced in the same
sense in a theatrical release.
But you know, these kids now,when they shoot digitally and
cheaply, that you can make amovie for not a lot of money,
and it might be great if youknow what you're doing and you
got a great story, right?
You've got a first and foremostgreat script and a sense of uh
purpose from the director andsome good actors.
(20:23):
You you'll you'll makesomething that could be
interesting.
But you're not in that thing,you're not gonna, it's not gonna
be you're not gonna rely onincredibly expensive computer
graphics packages.
You're not gonna have ahelicopter crash into a building
and blow up, right?
Right.
You're gonna have peopletalking to each other.
It's gonna be a people story.
People falling in love, uh,people hating each other, people
(20:44):
doing terrible things to eachother, people seeking
redemption.
And those stories you're gonnafind in, you know, over the you
know, 40 years of classicHollywood.
So I I think that that that hasclearly happened too.
Tim Millard (20:56):
That brings up a unique uh point.
You said you'd kind of age intoit.
And I feel like I've done that,you know.
Um part of it is when you havekids too, and you the way you
connect your parents uh overfilms and TV special and holiday
films and all that.
And then now you have your ownkids and you're like, what are
we gonna watch?
Uh it's a holiday.
Yeah, oh, let's go back to someof the old favorites, you know.
I mean, there's new filmscoming out all the time as well,
(21:18):
but uh, if you really love as afamily to watch films or TV
shows, you're gonna want tostart to go back as well.
Ben Mankiewicz (21:24):
Yeah, we're we'll we watch Christmas in
Connecticut every year.
My daughter loves it.
She's programming it next monthin December on TCM, part of our
kids' fans that uh that we'redoing, I think, over the course
of four weeks in uh in uh inDecember.
Um yeah, it's gonna be nice,you know.
And I mean it's you know, we'llwatch Christmas in Connecticut,
we'll watch It's a WonderfulLife, you know, we'll watch Elf.
(21:45):
Um, you know.
Um like so there's plenty ofgood new Christmas movies too.
I'm Scrooged, I love Scrooged.
I mean, it's not really new,but you know, in our world and
where I think of as new becauseit's 1988.
Well let me ask nearly 50 yearsago.
Tim Millard (21:59):
Yeah, let me ask about let me ask about that
because that feels like a movingtarget, the the definition of
classic film.
Ben Mankiewicz (22:04):
Yeah, so uh everybody asked that.
I don't mean to I'm notdisparaging the question, I
would ask it.
And and uh whatever your answeris, Tim, is uh is fine.
Like you can define it howeveryou want, and we like that there
is no answer for it.
So part of the answer is we candefinitely say, you know, very
simply, any movie made inHollywood during the studio era,
(22:29):
right?
Which started end in the 1950sbut really came up.
So basically any movie madebefore 1967 is a classic movie.
But that doesn't mean that it'sa good movie by any stretch of
the imagination, which is partof the problem with the word
classic, which feels like acompliment and is meant as a
compliment a lot of the times,but it's also also just means
from an era that we think of asthe classic, the era of you
(22:53):
know, of classic Hollywood.
So, you know, I think of thatthe studio era from the dawn of
talkies until the 1959.
So uh to me that sort of 30years when the studios were
that's dominant, the studiosdominated, and that's those will
always be part of the answer.
But obviously, then it then youstuff start poking around.
I mean, it's now every movie,you know, I think the greatest
10 years in American movies was1967 and 1976.
(23:17):
So those are all classic filmsthat are released then, and most
of them, many of those in thatera.
Obviously, that I'm not sayingthat there were no great movies
released after that.
There were, I just mean 1977,that's Star Wars.
And that's a that's a differentera.
I'm starting that beginssomething different.
Tim Millard (23:34):
Yeah, it's like the the era the blockbuster kicks
off.
Ben Mankiewicz (23:37):
That's right.
And and and obviously, youknow, you know, also, you know,
it's also then you you got youknow the Deer Hunter and
Apocalypse Now and Inside Moves.
All these movies I love.
It's not in the shining,because we're not we're not
ending great film, you know, butthose movies feel like those
movies I just named, thosemovies feel more like movies
that were made from 1967 to 76,even though they they populate
(24:01):
after that.
So, you know, I mean, all thosemovies to me are obviously
classic films, and thenobviously some movies can become
a classic film right away.
What I love most about theanswer to that question, and
obviously I don't really have ananswer, that's why I keep
talking, um, is that uhfrequently you'll see people
define a classic movie as amovie that aired on TCM.
So then now sort of we get todecide what a classic.
(24:22):
We know we aired the the Lordof the Rings trilogy, I think
just one time.
Maybe, no, probably more thanonce.
We did it, you know, we and wewe wouldn't do it regularly,
mostly because we can't affordit, right?
But we got it for uh 31 Days ofOscar the first time, the sort
of month-long series of filmsthat we do leading up to the
Academy Awards and the monthbefore the Academy Awards.
(24:44):
We've done that for more than20 years.
Or we just put them in, youknow, we we you know, we and we
could do a lineup of films overa a day or a month of uh uh
fictional fantasy locations,right?
And that might warrant showingone of the Lord of the Rings
movies.
And those movies are great,obviously.
They're they're you know, thethe they won, I think, combined,
(25:06):
nearly maybe more than 30Oscars, uh, the three films in
the trilogy.
So those are obviously worthyof us showing.
It's just that nor they'reyou're basically too expensive
for us when we have a limitedbudget to acquire films to
license films, and you can'tjust say, like, oh great, let's,
you know, that's why we don'tshow, we've shown The Godfather
so infrequently.
(25:26):
It's because it's it's hard toget.
Yeah.
Right.
You know, some of these moviesthat people complain that we
don't show.
I'm like, we can't.
Sometimes it's a legal issuethat's tied up, right?
For some reason, someinexplicably films that you'd
think would all everybody wouldwant to be seen and and aren't
that expensive, but they'restill tied up in rights issues,
so we can't get them.
And other things are we have,you know, we have the bulk of
(25:47):
our budget is spent on licensingfilms, but we have we
ultimately have a budget.
And you know, so we can't getsome stuff.
Tim Millard (25:54):
Yep.
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting that uhthat TCM has kind of become uh a
go-to for that that definitionbecause you can always hear
complaints.
You can hear some peoplecomplain about the definition if
it's too recent in their mind.
And of course it depends on theage you are to some extent.
But you know, we're already in2025.
I mean, we're already 25 yearsinto this next century, and uh
(26:17):
the the films I grew up with arenow considered by many
classics.
That's right.
And then some people wouldwrite films from the 80s, and
you know, it's it's like, wow,okay, well, they're a classic to
me.
Sure.
Like, I mean, I just in thedefinition of what I think of
classic being Casablanca era.
No, not really.
Ben Mankiewicz (26:34):
Right, but I just like I mentioned Scrooge,
like that's a good example.
Like, I have to catch myself.
Like, of course, there's noquestion that people think
Scrooge is from another era,because it was.
Like, you know, and we're doingthis with the holidays, what
I'm talking about.
And I think, you know, and I'mI'm uh I love Bill Murray.
And so yeah, I and Scrooge is agreat film.
And I oh it's two RichardDonner films that I'm mentioning
here, Inside Moves and Scrooge.
(26:55):
But yeah, it's 37 years old,right?
But I still think that's notwhat I mean when I think of as a
great classic film, but I I getwhy I get why people would.
Tim Millard (27:04):
I'll leap to the TCM festival for for uh a minute
here.
But to be able to bring peoplelike John Williams or Steven
Spielberg or Yes Corsese or tothe festival, these are people
who they talk about their theirview of classic film, the ones
they grew up with, but there'snow generations and they're at
the age where you want tocelebrate them and their films.
Oh, no question.
(27:25):
While they're alive, whilethey're still making them, you
know what I mean?
And uh and so you can look andsay, well, Spielberg, I mean,
his career is so vast, his earlyfilms fall into to that classic
category, The Jaws, becausethat's a 50-year-old movie.
Ben Mankiewicz (27:39):
Jaws is a 50-year-old movie, yeah.
Tim Millard (27:42):
You know, it's not.
But you you you still want tokind of expand that definition,
I think, if you're TCM, right,so that you can celebrate these
uh these photos.
Ben Mankiewicz (27:50):
Yeah, and Steven and and and Martin Scorsese,
those guys you know, who've beensuch a huge help to us um over
the last three years, and reallylike unbelievable help to us,
two and a half years.
Amazing what these guys havedone to to keep us uh strong and
and and where we ought to be.
And 'cause you know, we weasked basically we've been
(28:13):
asking our bosses to treat usdifferently than a regular
channel.
And it took a little bit ofconvincing, but g God bless our
bosses too, they did it.
They heard it, they heard it.
And uh would they have heard itwithout Spielberg and Scorsese
and Paul Thomas Anderson?
I don't know, but they heardit.
And it's pretty unusual forpowerful people who've already
(28:34):
made a decision to unmake it,and they did.
They unf they unfired someexecutives and they they they
they listened.
It's great.
I can't I couldn't respect thepeople I work for more for that.
Tim Millard (28:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (28:44):
Um it's such it's so rare.
Tim Millard (28:46):
So uh well, I I don't know how much we can we
can get into this, but we doknow that it's been announced
that the the Warner Brothers issplitting into two companies.
Yeah.
Do you know where TCM kind offalls into or or how much you
can talk about there?
Ben Mankiewicz (29:00):
Uh I do.
I don't actually know whetherit's out yet, but but I mean the
uh so no, I guess.
But but we're in a really we'rein a good place.
And uh um so uh and uh I'm I'mI'm pleased by that.
Um and once again, these theseguys have helped us and they
(29:21):
they've stood up for us, and youknow, we're a movie channel,
and you know, Warner Brothersmakes movies.
So uh that's great.
Tim Millard (29:27):
That's well, there's a lot of consternation
among the listeners and the fansof you of TCM, you know, that
that that they want to be surethat TCM continues and and uh is
available.
And I know that when you youknow when you go on to HBL Max,
there is a nice presence thereof the classic films that has
really grown from the earlydays.
It has, it has, branded andeverything, and I like I like
(29:50):
seeing that.
Ben Mankiewicz (29:51):
So that's good.
Yeah, there's a hub there, andthat we're grateful for the hub,
really grateful.
It's it's been great.
Um, as people could probablytell, we don't really program
it.
Like so they the HBO Max peopleand they're you know they're
really good at what they do,really good.
I mean, every time I sort ofbounce around streaming
services, and obviously there'sshows that I watch, you know.
I mean, I watch Landman onParamount and Tulsa King, and uh
(30:15):
but Taylor Sheridan has a veryclear idea of what makes a good
television show.
Guy's got it, that guy has agreat sense.
And I love Billy Bob Thornton.
I like Sylvester Stallone too,but Billy Bob, really
exceptional actor.
So Sly's really great actor,too, it turns out.
Tim Millard (30:29):
I mean, I say it turns out, but if you saw Rocky,
he started starting off as a asa writer, too.
You know, yeah, totally.
Ben Mankiewicz (30:36):
He knows how to do it.
That on himself.
I love I love Sly.
I love that guy.
And uh Billy Bob Thornton justhappens to be one of my favorite
actors.
So in and Landman's reallygood.
But every time I end up on HBO,I'm like, this is the best one.
It's just the best.
It's got, you know, this isthis is still feels like the one
that is this is for movies.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right?
Tim Millard (30:55):
This is still I'm biased too, but but I uh the one
I won't give up, I mean, to payfor.
Ben Mankiewicz (31:00):
That's right.
I wouldn't that's the it wouldbe if I had to keep one, there's
no question.
I wouldn't.
I'd give up Netflix, I'd giveup everything before.
I'd give up uh before I give upHBO.
Tim Millard (31:09):
And and you know, I pay for a lot of streamers, and
there's a number of streamersthat I'll go on and I'll put you
know on hold for a while justbecause I I feel I'm good.
Ben Mankiewicz (31:17):
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
Tim Millard (31:19):
But but because of uh of the kind of the depth of
what's on HBO Max, I I I alwayskeep that one active.
So well I know that uh you alsohave podcasts uh that you do.
So there's that's the part ofthe TCM network.
Uh you've got the plot thickensand talking pictures.
What what led you kind of downinto the deciding to do the
(31:39):
podcast?
Ben Mankiewicz (31:40):
Well, I worked in radio for a long time.
I wanted to do podcasts for along time.
So I mean, I'm a in a sense,I'm a spearhead of the fact that
we have a podcast because I Idid I I don't advocate for
myself very effectively or veryoften, but I wanted that.
But that's the extent of myresponsibility for why those are
good.
Like what we have on or atleast in terms of the plot
(32:00):
thickens, was not my idea ofwhat we would be doing with a
podcast.
And I'm so fortunate that therewere other people whose voices
were heard because you know, ourfirst season of the Plot
Thickens, it's a narrativepodcast.
We've done six seasons so far.
We're working on the seventhseason as we speak uh
announcement for that'll come inthe early part of next year,
the first third of the year.
(32:21):
So we started with PeterBogdanovich, and Peter and I
were friends, and I was so inthe sense that we did Peter,
that was my idea to do Peter,but I had a whole different
idea.
Um, and then as we werefleshing out that idea, our our
sort of director of podcast,Angela Carone, said, I think the
story isn't the people Peterhas interviewed, and those
filmmakers, which is what wewere going to do, like Peter and
(32:43):
Howard Hawks, and Peter andAlfred Itchcock, Peter and John
Ford, Peter and Lewis Milestone,that kind of thing.
So what it turned out to be wasPeter and Peter's life.
Like Peter was the story.
And that was all that was notmy idea.
And it was great.
And it just sort of then, and Ihave uh uh the our storytelling
team is amazing, and and thenwe just went on from there, and
(33:07):
we did a season on the Devil'sCandy that was with Julie
Solomon.
I was slightly less involved inthat one, but it was still a
great season, and then we didLucille Ball, season on Lucille
Ball, season on Pam Greer,season on John Ford, and a
season on Cleopatra, which wejust finished, which was I think
our I mean, they've all beengood, but it was sort of our
most, I don't know if it was ourbest, but I think it was our
(33:27):
best.
Uh, and that was a littleinteresting for me because it
was a really the the star of itwas Joe Mankowitz, sort of
looking at at what that did tomy uncle Joe.
And it was quite something.
I'm super grateful to a coupleof my cousins, Nick Davis and
Alex Mankowitz, for making stuffavailable.
Alex is Joe's son, and Nick,like me, is you know, Joe's our
(33:48):
great uncle, our grandfather'sbrother.
Nick had written a book aboutJoe and Herman Mankowitz called
uh Competing with Idiots, and heshared a bunch of his audio
recordings and and andinformation that he'd found and
couldn't include in the book,directed us to stuff.
It was great.
So and it was fun to work withfamily and so yeah, and and I
think that uh, you know, theCleopatra means something, and
it's mostly negative, right?
(34:09):
Most expensive movie ever made,biggest flop ever, nearly
wrecked the studio, and and outof control, Elizabeth Taylor.
And it turns out, other than itbeing the most expensive movie
ever at the time, none of thosethings are true.
Like, it went into the blackwithin two and a half years of
its release.
Uh, Elizabeth Taylor, I mean,it would have been the most
(34:31):
expensive ever made with orwithout Elizabeth Taylor,
whether she made a million orseven million.
I mean, yeah, she stayed in herone of her villas, you know,
sometimes too long, and and butshe got legitimately sick and
nearly died twice.
Once before Cleopatra and thenonce later, uh early on in
Cleopatra.
And so, like, and everybody gotsick, and it wasn't just her.
(34:53):
So, and she's great and shedelivers, and the movie's not
that bad.
It's not so not certainly notthe worst movie ever.
Right.
So, and it didn't wreck thestudio, and it made money, and
it wasn't Elizabeth Taylor'sfault.
And it's pretty good.
Yeah.
Um, so it was that was fun todo, and uh, I invite people to
listen to that.
And then I do another podcastcalled Talking Pictures, which
is me talking with directors andactors, filmmakers, about the
(35:14):
movies, about why they whatmovies they love, why they love
them.
Tim Millard (35:19):
That's the interview, that's the interview
style podcast, and uh then theother one is the deep dive.
unknown (35:24):
Yeah.
Tim Millard (35:24):
I mean, I I I like them both because, you know,
one, you're talking to livingpeople, and you're getting you
know, you're getting their theirthoughts and ideas and and and
history and all their lifeexperience and everything.
Going back to the Cleopatra, Imean, there's so many things in
there that you don't know thatyou, as a listener, that you you
find out.
But um, I mean, I love thewhole the whole kind of like
(35:46):
Elizabeth Taylor just kind ofthrowing out a number, you know,
that just seems impossible.
Ben Mankiewicz (35:51):
Yeah.
Right.
She she didn't really want todo it, right?
She's sitting in her bathtub.
Tim Millard (35:55):
Yeah.
The bathtub.
Yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (35:56):
And she's talking on the phone to to
Walter Wanger, who wants her toplay Cleopatra.
It's the only person he wantsto play Cleopatra.
He produced it.
Yeah.
And she says to her husband,then Eddie Fisher, who of course
she would leave duringCleopatra for Richard Bird.
She says to him, Um, yeah, Itell him, Yeah, fine, I'll do
it.
She's been harassing her,calling, calling.
Fine, I'll do it.
Tell her to do it for a milliondollars.
That's like 1959 or 1960.
(36:19):
And uh and uh the milliondollars.
And the Wanger's like, I'llcall you back.
And then he checks with thestudio and they're like, okay.
Yep.
And then the studio, by theway, did a great uh thing that
that uh it probably is a is afrom a marketing point of view
and from a business point ofview, is probably should be
taught in every film school.
She said yes.
They were so excited toannounce Elizabeth Taylor, the
(36:41):
most beautiful woman in theworld, you know, as she was
routinely thought of then, andby the way, she might have been,
um, would play Cleopatra, themost beautiful woman who ever
lived, right?
You know, that was the sort ofhook.
And so she'd said she'd do it,and they announced it.
And they gave her a big fakecheck for a million dollars, you
know, like a prize-winningsweepstakes, and they announced
(37:04):
it.
They did a whole press deal,except they hadn't signed a
contract yet.
So then they announced it.
So then all of a sudden theygave her so much leverage,
right, by making thatannouncement before they had her
actually signed, that then shestarted putting in all the
things that drove up her priceand made it a fun story, you
know, about bringing, you know,bringing the entourage that came
(37:24):
with her and the two villas andall this crazy stuff.
But whatever.
Again, that is not whyCleopatra went went over budget.
But it did set the template andyou know, and she would have
signed it before if they'd madeher.
Tim Millard (37:37):
People have to listen to the podcast to get the
rest of this story here.
Ben Mankiewicz (37:40):
Yeah, it's a great, it's a great, it's a fun
story.
It's a fun story.
Tim Millard (37:43):
I did want to, before we move on from the
podcast, though, I I've reallyenjoyed the John Ford one.
Ben Mankiewicz (37:48):
Oh, yeah, we I liked it too.
That's why I has alwayshesitate to, you know, it's
weird.
I don't like lists.
I mean, I make them sometimes,and I but like as soon as you
don't put something on a list oryou put something eighth
instead of second, you know, itfeels somehow like you've
slighted it, right?
So yeah, I I think that I thinkyeah, I think our podcast has
gotten better every season, andI think they were really good to
(38:09):
start.
And I think there was somethingreally powerful about our first
season on Peter Bogdanovich,who has lived this uh who lived,
you know, he still sort ofcan't believe Peter's gone, but
who lived this incredible lifeof you know being this Wonderkin
director, you know.
I mean, when he made LastPicture Show in 1971, can't
remember if it was Time orNewsweek, said that it was the
(38:30):
greatest American film madesince Citizen Kane.
And by the way, Orson Wellswas, you know, Peter's mentor,
idol.
Yeah.
Peter idolized him.
Yeah, so that went to Peter'shead.
It did.
And then he, by the way, andthen he follows it up with, you
know, uh, what's up, Doc andPaper Moon?
Like an incredible three years.
The first, not his first threefilms.
His first film, Target'sAmazing, too, you know.
But this was what these werehis first films with budgets and
(38:52):
stars.
And uh he, amazing filmmaker.
And then, you know, he got alittle ahead of himself, and you
know, and then he left hiswife, Polly Platt, who was
really instrumental in thosefilms too, product, great
production designer, and he lefther for Sybil Shepherd.
They legitimately fell in love.
I don't want to underplay that.
And, you know, he was sohandsome himself, Peter, and
Sybil's beautiful.
(39:13):
And Cary Grant told Peter, wehave it in our podcast, you
know, stop looking so happy.
Why are you always so happy allthe time?
Nobody likes, nobody likesother people being happy.
Right?
Um, but Peter sort of lookedlike he'd conquered the world
and he made some movies thatweren't that great.
Although St.
Jack, a movie he made in 1979with Ben Gazar, is a great,
(39:34):
great, great, great film thateverybody should see.
And then he had thisunspeakable tragedy happen to
him.
And it it it ruined himpersonally for a while, the
murder of his girlfriend by herstrange husband, Dorothy
Stratton.
And then he tried to save themovie they made together, which
is quite good.
They all laughed, a really niceromantic comedy with John
(39:55):
Ritter and Dorothy Stratton andBen Gazar again, Audrey Happern.
But the Dorothy had beenmurdered and so violently and so
awfully that uh, you know, thestudio was like, it's sort of
nobody's gonna want to see thismovie with this sort of bright
young star.
And Dorothy would have been aat a bare minimum, she would
have been a sitcom star.
And I think she would have beena successful comedy actress.
(40:15):
She really had it.
She was very young.
And uh, and then Peter buys themovie, spends five million
dollars to buy the movie andmarket himself.
You can't do that.
And he lost everything.
Lost everything.
And he lost everything againwhen he sued the studio eight
years later for mask becausethey wanted to replace Bruce
Springsteen's music with BobSeegers because it was cheaper.
Like, and he screwed up againand he liked, don't stop, you
(40:39):
know.
But then he sort of came backagain and and he was so
respected by all these youngfilmmakers who adore him.
Wes Anderson adores him, NoahBaumbach adores him, you know.
Um Peter's really was specialand he loves classic movies and
he was humbled by life.
And I I don't know, I lovedhim.
Tim Millard (40:57):
Yeah, that's a great, that's a great that's the
first one I listened to.
I mean, of the series.
I've become a fan of like bookson tape, partly because I love
podcasts and uh these thesethese are stories you're
telling, you know, over thecourse of what how many episodes
you have, what?
Ben Mankiewicz (41:10):
Anywhere from we did one season was 10, anywhere
from six to ten.
Tim Millard (41:14):
Yeah, yeah, and and it just becomes like this
fantastic.
Ben Mankiewicz (41:18):
And then the talking pictures one, right.
Also, we could have 10, 12other.
That's just me talking topeople who love movies about
movies.
Like, so you know, it's alsobeen great.
Tim Millard (41:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, uh one one of the thingsabout TCM that I appreciate, you
know, you come we're coming tothe end of the year.
And kind of the sad part of theend of the year is the in
memoriam.
But um, but I think that TCM,you know, you guys do the best
in terms of putting outsomething that really
encompasses a broader, and Iknow you don't have the same
(41:46):
limitations that maybe theOscars have or something, you
know.
Ben Mankiewicz (41:49):
Yeah, we can go longer.
Tim Millard (41:50):
You can go longer a little bit more, and but just
the ability to get the clipsthat you're able to get from the
films and to to to showcasethem and everything.
But I also like the ones thatyou're populating now during the
year as well.
Like we just lost, you know,Dan Keaton, Robert Redford.
I mean, there's so many amazinguh um actors we've lost this
(42:11):
year.
Ben Mankiewicz (42:11):
Um but tell me about the yeah.
Yeah, and you for Gene Hackmanalso this year at the beginning
of the year.
Yeah.
Tim Millard (42:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Tell me a little bit about thethe those and uh and how they've
become so popular.
Ben Mankiewicz (42:21):
And so there's a there's a secret magic to those
videos or in memoriums, whichwe do every year.
And again, the academy isrestricted by time.
Tim Millard (42:29):
Yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (42:30):
I think the academy now, I mean, they should
release a longer one, you know,to kind of like online, you
know, but but we're sort of thetemplate for that now.
And the secret sauce is uh awoman named Christian Hammond
and a guy named David Byrne,like the talking heads, David
Byrne, and they're producereditors and they work on those,
(42:51):
and they're amazing.
And they're just they're sotalented.
Everything they touch is thatChristian and David make for us
is great, and so many of thethings people see on the air and
like, and you're like, yeah,that's Christian and David.
Um, they're amazing and great,great people too.
When we did a on the TCMcruise, it was a karaoke night
where we actually TCM staffersdid karaoke for fans.
(43:13):
So it's weird to do karaokewhen there's literally an
audience.
Um the hosts, and but butChristian who's like reserved
and shy and brilliant, and shecomes out and she's got
sunglasses on and she's dancing.
It was just awesome to see herdo that.
And she enticed our head ofprogramming to come out and play
a fake saxophone.
It was an incredible night.
(43:33):
It was really stunning.
So yeah, we've sort of, again,we everybody at the channel
loves movies and loves movies ina certain way, loves movies in
this really respectful way.
There are some scholars at TCM,no question.
There's some people who werefilm students who can still talk
about film in that way.
But this love of movies is thissort of uh passion and this
(43:58):
eagerness to be blown away andmoved emotionally by movies.
And that's the thing that thatmovies can do still better than
television, which has in manycases never been better.
Tim Millard (44:09):
Yeah.
Ben Mankiewicz (44:09):
And I know when people you can criticize it and
there's too much stuff on, and alot of it is junk, but there's
also more great stuff than ever.
It's really amazing what'sbeing produced on television.
That's one reason why therearen't those mid-range movies
for adults.
Those are getting made as youknow, those shows I mentioned,
you know, whether it's, youknow, yellow those Taylor
Sheridan shows, whether it'sYellowstone or 1883 or or or
(44:31):
Tulsa King or Landman, thoselike there was a time when those
would have been movies, right?
And would have been sort ofgreat movie stories.
Yeah.
But now they're serializedtelevision shows.
So uh, you know, we everybodywho works there is uh ha wants
to be moved by movies.
Um this compact, you know,90-minute to two and a half hour
(44:52):
format of sort of that thatthat can, you know, reach inside
you and stir something in youthat that moves you to some
action.
And the action is not likemaybe, you know, I'm not saying
you you instantly go out andstart, you know, volunteering
somewhere or or helping thepeople who need to be helped, it
stirs you to action.
And the the action is crying,the action is connecting you to
(45:14):
feelings that you might nototherwise have been able to find
and identify.
Yeah.
Movies movies are incrediblyspecial and they're they're
they're singular in theirability to do that.
Tim Millard (45:25):
Well you you get older and as as you're going
through life, you're you're busyliving.
And you you're busy watchingmovies, you're busy watching TV,
you're busy.
Years go by, decades go by,quarter century goes by, half a
century goes by, and you realizethat the the way the movies
weave in and out of your life,they they're part of the story.
(45:45):
And then you you watch these inmemoriums sometimes and and to
me, you you're seeing you'reseeing this and and you're
reminded of uh years of yourlife, your times of your life,
people of your life.
It it's the the power of themovie and the actor and the
power of TCM in people's life.
(46:05):
I think why partly why it meansso much to people and uh why
Yeah, I I think you're right.
Ben Mankiewicz (46:11):
I think you're right.
That's uh you know, we uhmovies really can you know and
and it it occurs to me rightnow, and I'm dealing with this
because I got a young kid likeyou do, you know, preteen
daughter and you want her I wanther so badly to slow down.
Right?
Her life is so fast and I don'tmean I want to slow down her
(46:32):
progress.
I'm not one of those parents.
I mean I'm I feel the same way,but I immediately recognize
that this is her life and she'sgotta she's gotta live it.
But she goes fast and shedoesn't recognize it yet.
She will.
Um she's Mark Kidd.
But movies are a way of slowingdown now.
I mean, like, you know, that'sthey aren't watching a 25 minute
(46:55):
show that you can watch ninestraight episodes of or even an
hour-long show where you canlike this is a single story
inside, you know, a reasonablemovie of ninety minutes to two
hours and ten, twenty minutes.
That's an amazing thing now tobe able to take that time and
take in that full story with abeginning, middle, and end, with
(47:16):
a resolution, with somethingthat moves you if it's good in
some way, right?
Whether to joy, to laughter, totears, uh to thinking, right?
To considering what you'veseen.
Um it is a way to slow down.
I'm gonna have to re-emphasizethat.
Why movie nights are soimportant, why movie nights are
so different than family TVnight.
(47:38):
You know, you don't it's notthe same to watch two episodes
of Game of Thrones with thefamily, you know.
Yeah not two episodes of TheSopranos, still the greatest
show ever on television.
Yeah.
Um it's uh it's not the same asas a family night where you
watch whether it's Christmas inConnecticut or you know, out of
(48:00):
sight or um Jay Kelly, somethingcame out last year, you know,
it's the first thing that poppedin my head.
I guess I have George Clooneyon on my mind.
Yeah.
So, you know, uh that that's athat's a that's a full
experience that I think, youknow, I think some parents will
have some success being like,hey, we're gonna have a movie
night, we're gonna watch amovie, we're just gonna have to
sit through it.
But asking my daughter to sitthrough a two-hour one thing is
(48:23):
a challenge.
I don't probably for you two.
Tim Millard (48:25):
Like sometimes I get a, you know, do you want to
watch a movie?
No, not really.
I want to play my game or Iwant to see my YouTube or
whatever.
It's a it's a challenge.
And yeah, what's interesting isgrowing up, my dad was very
restrictive about TV or movies.
He didn't want me to watch toomuch.
Ben Mankiewicz (48:40):
And here I am trying to trying to utter to
more.
But watching one thing, man.
It's uh it it matters.
And we're gonna I'm gonna makesure it happens at least once a
week.
I'd like it to happen twice aweek, but I'll force it once a
week.
Tim Millard (48:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, Ben, it was a pleasurehaving you on.
Thanks for having me.
Ben Mankiewicz (48:55):
Oh, yeah, Tim, I'm sorry I talked so much.
Yeah, but thanks.
Tim Millard (48:57):
No, you know what?
It's a podcast.
People who don't talk arereally bad guests.
Ben Mankiewicz (49:01):
Yeah, though that's true.
It's I mean, it's better totalk too much than too little,
but yeah, it's probablysomething in between.
Appreciate it.
And happy holidays.
Thanks, you too, Tim.
Thanks very much.
Tim Millard (49:10):
Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with
TCM host Ben Mankowitz as muchas I did.
I'll have links in the shownotes to the podcast we
discussed that Ben hosts.
They are terrific.
And if you are a classic filmfan, I think you'll thoroughly
enjoy them if you haven't beenenjoying them yet.
And if you aren't yetsubscribed or following the show
at your favorite podcastprovider, you may want to do
(49:32):
that because we have a lot ofgood shows leading into the end
of the year, and of course we'llhave them at the beginning of
January as well.
So lots of good stuff coming upthat you want to be sure it's
sent to you when you get upright away.
And just as a reminder, you cantext us here at the show and
leave us comments about theepisode.
It's always nice to hear frompeople, so feel free to do that.
(49:54):
Until next time, you've beenlistening to Tim Millard.
Stay slightly obsessed.
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