Episode 3: Creativity and Impasse

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The Thank you.
So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,

(01:03):
so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,so, so Hi everybody, Welcome to
the Identity Podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
I am joined today by a wonderful human being, Marie
Broadway.
Hi Marie.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Hello, I'm happy to be here.
Hi, everyone, yay.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
If it's all right with you, I'm going to read a
little bit of your bio with itand then and then you can and
then.
So people know who is thishuman that is sitting with
Kimberlase.
Ok, I do this now.
Ever since Marie was young,marie had an active imagination.
Ever since Marie was young,marie had an active imagination.

(02:00):
Marie spent a lot of time as akid playing, pretend, making art
and scribbling stories intonotebooks.
Marie therapy.
More of those pieces fell intoplace Through play.
Marie was able to see thecreative process externalized.
It became necessary for Marieto confront difficult patterns
in order to relate to them innew ways, tool that helps Marie

(02:26):
recognize and integrate pastexperiences so that Marie can
develop an honest andcompassionate relationship with
themselves and with theircreative goals, and now helps
others to develop thatrelationship to themselves and
their creative goals.
Marie is a certifiedpractitioner in the drama
therapy modality ofdevelopmental transformations
modality of developmentaltransformations, which Marie has

(02:46):
practiced since 2016, using theimaginative play practice in
their work as an artist, awriter and a creative coach,
marie is does that feel like?
That's like how you're enteringinto this space of who you are
right now in this world?

Speaker 1 (03:03):
yeah, I guess it does that I well, I guess I can just
add to it, which is just to sayI'm I'm an artist and a writer
and I have been both of thosethings for a very long time and
in the past I guess 10 years nowI have been also very involved

(03:25):
in the drama therapy communityand using dbt specifically,
which I am thinking that maybepeople know a little bit about,
since I don't know if you talkabout it, probably not, but okay
, well, it's.
It's how me, that's how Kim andI know each other, so we know
each other.
Uh, through DBT training and,yeah, basically using this like

(03:47):
emergent play process to exploreinner themes and stories.
And and now I use that increativity coaching with folks
working on all sorts of thingsrelated to creative process yes,

(04:08):
yeah, so developmentaltransformations is a practice
that it started as a therapeuticprocess but it has evolved a
lot.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
The fact that you use it in creative coaching, it's
also used in social change work,it's used as performance, it's
used as gosh I'm.
I don't a lot of different ways.
If you could sum up what Iguess we should start with, what
is developmentaltransformations?
Because people are like, solike.

(04:40):
If you could sum it up in likea few words to you what is DBT?

Speaker 1 (04:46):
Well, I use it as a tool.
I think it's such a powerfulit's really just play.
So it's like, if you can thinkback to like as being a kid and
playing, it's sort of astructured, structured play

(05:06):
space for.
For I mean I use it with adults, so you can use it with kids
too, I think.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
I don't know.
I'm not really here to talkabout DBT specifically, but I
think you relay a little bit ofthe foundation of some of the
things we're talking about Imean.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
Dbt is like an emergent embodied play structure
, for so it's called.
It's like a drama therapymodality.
It uses tunes into the body.
It follows different impulsesof what you want your body to do
, without knowing really what itmeans.
Yet you make that into shapes,it turns into stories, and

(05:38):
almost always, in my experience,those stories reflect something
of your history or patternsthat you've been grappling with
for a very long time.
So they can be very related toyour past, and they can also be
very related to your dreams andyour future and what you are
thinking about and how youintegrate all of those things.

(05:58):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
I co-sign on that.
I always like to ask folks whopractice DVT to describe it from
their perspective, because it'salways a little bit different.
It's always just like colored,with the human that's talking

(06:27):
struggle.
So I'm always like, well, youknow, it's um, uh, it's, it's a
uh drama therapy and uh,improvisational and relational,
and we're in our bodies and welisten to them and uh.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
I like we're in our bodies and we listen to them.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Yeah so the fact that you use uh dbt in creative work
.
So, yeah, this podcast isreally centralized, centralizing
around the topic of creativityand and the whole creative
process, um, because you are acreative coach.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
So talk to us a little bit about what is
creativity to you yeah, so, um,I was actually just thinking
about this right before I cameon.
I was like, how do I, am Igoing to have to define
creativity?
But then I went to my websiteand I was like, oh, I defined it
here, great.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
Past me wins.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
Thanks, past Marie.
So I actually do have a line onthere that I still really love,
which is that I thinkcreativity is anything we do in
active engagement with ourimagination.
Yeah, so that's my line and I'msticking to it.
I love it, I love it, but, yeah, broadly, I think it connects

(07:45):
to so many things and you know,it could be work related.
It could be not work related.
I think I personally have theexperience of creativity being
connected to a lot of personalprojects and, like art and
writing, fiction, writing,storytelling.
I think therapy is a creativeprocess, you know this, like

(08:08):
practice of making sense of yourlife and integrating different
stories.
And, you know, restorying, yeah, and I also work with new.
You know I've worked a lot withnew parents.
Parenting, I think, is such acreative process.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Oh my gosh yes.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Becoming a parent is a creative process, so there's a
lot of like, overlaps, I think,and like oh, spiritual
integration is such a creativeprocess also.
These are just things that Ifeel drawn to and have like
worked with people on so it soit's like so many.
It can touch so many differentparts of our lives.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Marie and I we had a meeting to talk about like, okay
, well, what do we want to talkabout?
But then like, how are both ofus coming into the conversation?
And so I shared with Marie like, oh, I have a fascination with
neuroscience and I've never goneto the depths of understanding
neuroscience of creativity.
So I was like, is it cool if Ibring in like some of that piece
, those pieces?
And gratefully, marie was like,yeah, yes, so I'm going to

(09:16):
weave in some things about theneuroscience of creativity, at
least from like the like, whenthe folks are like doing the
studies right.
I found it interesting the moreI read about the neuroscience
of creativity, creativity.
There's certain parts of likestudies around creativity.
They can't like replicatebecause the creative process is
so individual and you, thecreative process is so

(09:36):
individual to the human creating, uh that they can't replicate
it wow, yeah, that's amazingright, I love that.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
That makes total sense to me, because I think
everyone has their own reallyspecific creative process and
how they get into it and whatthey make when they're in it,
and it's yeah, so that checksout yeah, that's then we're
saying that it's hard.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
It's hard for them to make like a a do a study on
some replicating a specific typeof creativity or something like
that, or if there's like acomponent of creativity that
they're wanting to, likeresearch, some of them are able
to be repeated because of theprocess it tends to be the same,
and then other pieces of theprocess they're like oh, how

(10:23):
would we do that?
So, like, how, like the researchdefines creativity and I want
to ask you what your thoughts onthis are.
It says what is creativity?
It involves generating an ideathat is new in some way, and
it's primarily defining.
That is the primary definingattribute to creativity.
For it is to be consideredcreative, it must be novel, new,

(10:45):
original, unique, unusual, rare, infrequent, but also relevant,
fit for circumstances andappropriate.
So it's like this venn diagramof what is original and what is
appropriate and creative's likeright smack dab in the middle
and I was like I could.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
I could fuck with that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, that's really interesting,that that's a cool.
I haven't heard that definitionbefore and that's a cool one to
kind of chew on, because I waslike I the novel part.
I was like, oh yeah, I guess itis kind of novel because that's
what gets us excited.
It's like, oh, we're like doingsomething in slight because, oh
, and also it's actually.

(11:27):
I feel like you need to say thiswhen you're saying talking
about novel, because I thinksometimes, like collectively,
we're like novel is somethingtotally new.
It's it's like something I'venever done before.
It doesn't you know, even it'snot even familiar in any way.
But actually and this issomething we know through dbt

(11:49):
but, um, I actually think it'sso important to define novel as
just slight, it could be justslightly new, like it could be
something that's totallyfamiliar, but you're doing it in
a slightly different way.
Or or just noticing, like thenovelty.
Because I think that that thatmuscle, like to build that

(12:11):
muscle of like understandingthat there's novelty even in a
day to day monotony is, ishugely helpful to the creative
process, because to create somany types of things that
actually requires a monotonousrepetition, like it requires
repetition also.

(12:31):
So I think to just say thatcreativity is something novel,
is actually missing a wholeother piece, which is that it
actually also requiresrepetition, but that there's
novelty in that.
It's like we need both, youknow.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yes, yeah, I love that you said that, because it's
the repeating elements thatcreate the structures of like.
Okay, this is what we're kindof playing with yeah, what we're
working with, but it's thosenon-repeating elements that like
sneak.
Yeah, like back when marie andI were in training, I think I
don't know there was a pointwhere I realized like, oh, I
love non-repeating elements Ilove them and I just couldn't

(13:15):
define why.
and I remember our trainer,renee, being like that might be
something to think about, kim,because you know so many
patterns and like patternrecognition of what meaning does
that have for you?
And I was like, I don't know, Iwas, that might be something to
think about, kim, because youknow so many patterns and like
pattern recognition.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
Of what meaning does that?

Speaker 2 (13:30):
have for you and I was like I don't know, I was
like in the dark, I was likewhatever.
But like now I look back at it,there's lots of psychological
reasons, but also, you know,avoidance, but also in the fact
that, like that's also where alot of creative spark lives,
like in the non-repeatingelement.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, totally.
It's what gets you excited?
You're like, oh, more of this.
Or like, what is this, If it'snew?
You're like, what is this?
Let me explore it a little bitmore.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
It's the what is this that gets my heart beating a
little faster.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, and I also love actually, just to go back to
that definition, you werereading the something about the
relevance.
That also made me think, ofcourse, because you can also
define relevance in any way.
But, like, when we're liketalking about the creative
things we want to do with ourlives, they often are deeply

(14:22):
personally relevant to us insome way.
Right, like it's like oh, I,you know, I've always loved like
food and and like I've alwayslike food's been always really
important to me.
Or like I have an experience oflike not not like you know, not
being nourished in the way thatI needed to, and then someone

(14:43):
goes off and like it becomes achef, or like it's like you know
that that becomes deeplyrelevant to their story and that
, but that's it's creative inthat sense too, because they're
like filling a need that theyyou know that they didn't have
met, or like, yeah, I think thatthat happens a lot in like this

(15:03):
kind of work, where it's likehow is the thing that you're
pursuing creatively relevant toyour life and relevant to your
story?

Speaker 2 (15:12):
So, yeah, I, you know I didn't, I didn't think about
it through that lens before yousaid that, but now I'm like, oh
my gosh.
Yes, because I was thinkingabout, like, what do they mean
by relevant?
Because truthfully I was like,oh, so like, if it's like in pop
culture terms, like if it's notrelevant, people don't like
consume it, they don't care, andso then it just sits on a shelf
and nobody gives a crap.

(15:32):
but in like, in terms of thecreative process, it has to be
relevant to the creator or elseyou're not going to have the
energy to exude or the mentalcapacity to even unpack it,
because it's not interesting,right?

Speaker 1 (15:46):
right, right, exactly , it's not interesting enough or
it's not relevant enough tothem, or they just wouldn't have
even thought of it, maybebecause it's not relevant to
them.
Yeah, I think it's actuallythat's cool to think about how
you're thinking about creativity.
Are you thinking about it fromthe position of a consumer, or
are you thinking about it fromthe position of an employer?
Because that also came to mind.

(16:07):
When you're talking aboutrelevant versus a novel, it's
sort of like oh yeah, how do wecapitalize on on creativity?
Because that is a whole thing,that's like a whole oh yeah.
World out there is like how doyou make your employees more
creative?
Or how do you, how do you usecreativity to, you know, be the

(16:27):
most productive in in theworkforce and the you know and I
don't mean like totally, youknow this, this, that because
it's like, of course, we're allin this, in this world, and even
if you're an artist, you'realso kind of trying to figure
out, you know how, how to createthings that people want and

(16:48):
like, and so you're always sortof I think maybe all of us are
always thinking about it fromall ends.
But it is interesting to thinkabout the difference between it
as a consumer versus on thecreator side.
And yeah, absolutely.
So many different pieces here.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
Well, yeah I guess to say like so I was while you're
talking.
I'm like, oh, my god, yes, andbecause I remember learning
about uh like how this has been,like how studies have helped
workplaces and how they've usedthis information to make sure it
keeps workers intrinsicmotivation up.
So what's the environment?
What's the like?
Yeah, the components of thework environment that keep

(17:32):
workers, uh, intrinsicallymotivated enough to have a
higher uh, you know what's theword like productivity level.
And so I was like, oh, so it'slike the next productivity level
.
And so I was like, oh, so it'slike.
The next thing I had in mynotes was that creative ideas do
not need to be a positive, lifeaffirming or good for mankind.

(17:53):
They can also be applied to theopposite and have terrible
consequences for mankind and forthe planet.
Yay, thanks, thanks, creativityyay thanks, thanks creativity
yeah so like, oh man, so thefact that you're sharing, like

(18:18):
you know, the relevance andworking with, like parents and
the creative process or like so,just to name that, like how
we're really playing withcreativity as a concept.
Most folks hear that word andassume we're talking about
musicians, we're talking aboutwriters, we're talking about,
you know, those in artisticfields.

(18:38):
But they don't realize that,like, most people write it off
and say like, oh, no, no, no, no, I'm not a creative person
that's for so-and-so orso-and-so plays the piano or
so-and-so whatever.
That's not me.
But what you're saying is thetype of work you do is not only
with folks like that, it's withfolks in many different
circumstances.

(18:59):
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that?

Speaker 1 (19:02):
yeah, um, I mean, I so, actually, as we're talking
about this like big picture,sort of like, uh, ways that
creativity is used for likemankind, with whether it's
benefits, beneficial or not um,I was thinking, oh yeah, there's
a prep.
Like I have a very deeppreference to work with like

(19:23):
individuals.
Um, in this like much morepersonal way, um, because I
think, um, I think that, yeah,it's like, whether it's like we
think about creativity beinglike, about like artists, like
professional artists ormusicians.
It's like I think, in some ways, I'm like well, in my mind, if

(19:45):
somebody's doing thatprofessionally, they've already
got some grasp of their creativeprocess.
That's really working for themin some way.
Um, and I think that I I loveworking with people who don't
necessarily identify that way,as like an artist or as a writer

(20:09):
or anything, whatever.
The medium is Right, because itcould be so many different
things.
Because I think that creativityis like Something that we all
have and I think it's somethingthat we can get easily cut off
from if we're, if we we're notlike thinking about it, making
space for it, just in thatthere's not a lot of maybe

(20:32):
permission or acknowledgementthat like creativity exists in
all these other realms as well.
Like, if you're in the creative,you know work.
If you're doing creative work,then, um, you might you already
probably know this and like haveare surrounded by people who
value creative process and areworking towards that.

(20:54):
But, like, if you're not andyou're, you know like, um, you
know just working your job andlike, but you've always kind of
like dreamed about writing anovel.
Or if you've always kind ofdreamed about, like, making art
and you used to do that, but youdidn't, you don't anymore, you
like kind of like let that fallby the wayside.

(21:14):
Like I love the experience ofkind of reinvigorating that in
people, because I it's, it'ssomething that is still there,
it's still in you and it's still, you know, want space.
I think I was actually thinkingthis before we got on Kim,
because I was like I was writingdown how I feel so strongly

(21:36):
that creative process is also atransformational process, and so
there is like a lot that cancome up around that Like, when
you're creating something,you're also transforming
yourself in some way and thatcan, of course, bring up this
like resistance or lots ofdifferent feelings.

(21:58):
Like you know, it's so commonto kind of put something off,
like to be like, oh yeah, I'llwrite my book someday or
whatever.
You know, that's like such acommon thing.
I think it is Like I feel liketalking to people they're like
I'm not a writer, but like, ohyeah, I do have this dream that
I'll write a novel someday.
It's like so.
It's so wild to me, like I'mlike that's amazing.

(22:20):
So you are actually a writer,you know, or you are, you do,
you?
You have this in you.
It doesn't.
You know, it's not for justlike specific people, but it
does require that you give spaceto it, and I think that can be.
That can be something that ishard to do, especially alone,
especially if you don't have thesupport.
It's like support systems forit, like support systems for it.

(22:47):
Yeah, there's all sorts ofreasons, but I just think it's
so cool to actually find theways in which, like, anyone can
like make a little more spacefor their creativity and like
see what that grows into,because actually, that it's a
it's an ongoing process.
Yeah, you know and I think ifwe're looking at artists and
people who are doing thatprofessionally, I mean, first of
all, not everyone who's like aprofessional artist is not

(23:08):
feeling stuck Right.
People can get like feel likethey need to mix it up in any
sort of way, so, but usuallythose are those folks like have
been doing something like thisfor a long time.
So you have to start where youare.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
Yeah, to start where you are.
Yeah, and I think that's like Ithink that's the hardest part
in any creative process, nomatter who you are, whether
you're well versed in creativecreative processes or you're not
is like, can I actually checkin with where I am right now for
real?
Because, yeah, we have anarrative in our head that, like
, this is how I do it.
Like, yeah, this is how I do it, this is how this last

(23:43):
experience went and that's all Iknow, to be true, about like,
what I know I can do.
I want to expand that in someway, so I'm just going to keep
doing that and wait for thatlike non repeating element to
show up.
And that's where the jumpingoff point is.
But, like, even in that processthere's all sorts of like.
I mean, I can't help but thinkabout you know, like you said,

(24:06):
like you're giving up part ofyourself to this transfer,
transformative process ofcreativity, of whatever you're
trying to express.
You're giving up part ofyourself and in some way shape
or form that's.
That's a fear inducingexperience.
That's a brief, ladenexperience, because I was this
person before, buttransformation means I'm not
going to be that person anymore.
And am I okay with that,because that means I'm also

(24:30):
giving this part of myself tothe other, like what, whoever is
going to experience this withme, or if it's like a piece of
art, like someone's going totake it in, and then that means
part of me lives in that.
Now am I cool with that, likeit's, there's so much in it.
Oh, that made me go do you have?

Speaker 1 (24:52):
I'm so curious.
I don't know if you don't haveto talk about this, if you don't
want to, but I'm so curiouslike if you have something in
particular for you that comes uplike do you have a medium that
you work with?
Is there some like, or where doyou like where you experience
this in yourself?

Speaker 2 (25:10):
are you?
Are you creating?
I can talk about myselfhappening right now.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
It's just where I want to go, but I was like I
don't know if that's somethingthat's like.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
I'm gonna do on this podcast, but yeah, I mean this
is dbt in a nutshell, or likefollow the impulse and if I'm
like, then you're like okay,that's where we go yep, or it's
like oh yeah, there's energythere.
I mean like, okay, we'll gothere.
Okay, so my creative processestend to fall in.

(25:39):
I mean, um, I thinkhistorically, like when I'm
going back to like childhoodstuff, it's, it's music.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
Oh cool.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Music and dance Cause .
Dance was the first creativething that I ever.
I was like three when I starteddance classes and my mom like
threw me in dance classes.
I was in like seven danceclasses a week and so, like,
dance was the first way Ilearned like how to express, but
through the body.
what really, what I really lovedabout dance was the music that
you got to move your body toamazing and so I was like, okay,

(26:15):
well, I want to move my body tomusic that makes like, makes
sense to my body.
And then I remember telling mymom, like I'm gonna be a rock
star.
And she's like, well, youshould start music lessons.
Then so like, so that's how.
And I think I think I went upto my choir teacher and said I'd
like to join the choir but Iwas in the band.
So like, I was in the band andyou weren't supposed to do both,

(26:38):
and I was like, no, I'm gonnado both, I'm gonna do I'm gonna
sing and I'm gonna play aninstrument.
Like that's how this is gonnago.
So I think, like, because thosewere my initial like, like
childhood places and I havefound like through like my own
work in the last few years, theolder I get, the more I need the
processes I need I had as achild, and so it's music and and

(27:02):
dance.
But music, this dance, wasreally about the music a lot,
and dance was the expression ofhow the music made me feel, so
like Music.
And now, as I've gotten older,writing.
So it's all three of those likesmushed together.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
Do you still make music now?

Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
I do.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Cut to one of Kim's songs.
I don't know what I'm gonna say, but I will tell you there's
like it's blurred, but there's adrum set right there.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Oh amazing, there's two guitars back there.
You are a rock star.
When you just shared that story, kim, I was like, oh my god, I
can totally see that, just likelittle Kim being like mommy, I'm
gonna be a rock Kim.
I was like, oh my God, I cantotally see that Just like
little Kim being like mommy, I'mgoing to be a rock star.
And I'm like, dude, you are.
Of course, that makes so muchsense for you.
Tracks, tracks.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
I mean truthfully, I wanted to be.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
I can really see it.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
I wanted to be somebody like Cyndi Lauper, like
everybody, like I liked Madonnatoo.
But Cyndi Lauper was like, well, I wanted to be Madonna too, I
just wanted to be like that.
And then, like I started seeinglike the eras of like how pop
music changed, and I was like,oh no, I don't want to, I don't
want to, I don't want to.

(28:23):
But anyway, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
So there's still room for all of it.
You know, everyone's doingeverything, Everyone's doing it
all.
You know Right, so okay.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
I wanted to ask you the same reverse.
Oh, no, go ahead.
You answer.

Speaker 1 (28:37):
Well, I was actually thinking about when I asked you
that question.
I was thinking about fictionwriting, cause I've studied
fiction writing in undergrad.
It will always have a place inmy heart I'm still a fiction
writer and I actually lead afiction writing in undergrad.
It will always have a place inmy heart.
I'm still a fiction writer andI actually lead fiction writing
groups now, using this likeusing drama therapy to help

(28:58):
people get generating and likekind of like finding their
blocks and like working aroundthem, working through them.
So I love this combination ofthings and I was thinking when I
was asking you about that.
I was thinking, like about how,in my writing process, I just

(29:20):
like consistently have beenamazed by and frustrated by the
fact that every time I I almostevery time I sit down to write,
I feel dread.
Yes, it's like always there.
It's just always there, andit's something that I think is

(29:41):
fascinating because I'm like oh,this is why you know people.
And I should also preface thiswith saying, like it's when I'm
really working on projects thatare important to me.
It's when I'm working on thingsthat I know I want to have out
in the world.
It's things that I, it'sstories that I know like sort of

(30:04):
very deeply in my imagination.
When I sit down to free write,if I'm like in a free writing,
you know group, it's a differentthing.
I'm just like word vomit, likethat was pretty.
I can read this to somebody.
But you know, and then not todiscount that, cause sometimes
really real things come out ofthose things too, and that's how
we do it.

(30:24):
But when you sit down and youknow you're going to work
towards something, it's, it'sthere's dread, there's like,
there's fear, there's avoidance,there's frustration.
There's so many differentthings that come up that make it
feel like almost impossible todo it, and I think that's why

(30:49):
for so long I I resented the the.
There's a kind of classic likewriting advice that people will
like, that writers will give toother writers, which is like, if
you, if you want to write, youneed to write every day.
And I for so long, like, haveresented that piece of advice

(31:13):
because I have felt like, how amI supposed to do this every day
?
Like, are you freaking, kiddingme?
Like torture, you know?
And, second of all, I need somehelp from someone if I'm going
to be sitting with thesefeelings every day.
So you know, this is why I'mdoing this work now is because

(31:37):
I've sort of piecemealed my ownsupport together through my own
therapy process.
Doing just just doing regulartalk.
Therapy has been so helpful tomy creative process.
Doing dbt training therapy wasso helpful to my creative
process and I feel like, youknow, I'm now in this position

(31:58):
where I can give other peoplethe support that I have really
needed in the past.
Ah, and still need, you know,and still need and still have.
So, relevance, relevance, yep,relevance, oh, look at that oh,

(32:18):
my god.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
Um, okay, I had a.
I had a question that hold on.
I'm looking through my notes,please hold.
Actually, that's where I meanwhat you're kind of talking
about, because you're like thefeelings come up yes, yeah, that
I'm gonna go into empaths.
Yeah, yes, but like I also don'twant to like lose our our
discussion on creativity, andthat's where my brain just got

(32:41):
kind of like stuck, which ishilarious, because it was like
about empaths that gave me anempath, so it's like it's like
shame begets shame, impassebegets impasse we're shame
spiraling right now.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
That's exactly what's happening.
Oh, fart, wait, what happened?
Did something happen to makethat happen?
Or was it just like a liketrying to connect different
pieces?
You're so good, um, I love, I'mdoing it, we're doing it right
now, that's what's important.
It's like oh, what's happeningin the transition?

(33:13):
Right Like we.
It's like juicy stuff usually.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
That is a perfect segue to talking.
I will, like I'm going to thenotes, can sit there because
we're we are here, friend, yeah,yeah, okay.
So the concept of impasse inthe creative process.
So Marie has written a paper onimpasse.
So in order for us to graduatefrom our developmental training

(33:38):
institute, we have to write afinal paper.
We have to do a whole bunch ofother stuff too, but for some
reason that paper is a behemoth.
It's a behememoth.
And so a friend of oursrecommended that I read, uh,
marie's paper on impasse,because I had been at my own
place of like creative block.
And so I reached out to marieand said, like marie, I heard

(34:01):
you wrote your final paper andthat it's on impasse.
May I read it?
And gratefully, marie said yes,and I read it and was like, oh
my God.
And so like, can you talk to usabout?
So?
I guess I should say no, I'mnot gonna say anything.
How do you define impasse andwhat is its purpose in the

(34:22):
creative process?

Speaker 1 (34:25):
Oh God, can you define it?
I want to hear your, your.
I want to hear your version ofit first okay I look at.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
Well, it's interesting because now I have,
like the neuroscience ofcreativity language stuck in my
head, totally yeah which isdifferent than the dvt
understanding of impasse well,you know what?

Speaker 1 (34:44):
okay, let's maybe even what just happened right
like in, because you'll probablyhear it in this podcast too,
which is oh for sure, I'm likeoh, I like getting meta with it,
because I think then it's likeeven more, there's more energy
around it, because it's like,look, we all just experience
this thing, so we can just pointto the thing we just
experienced.
Yes, um like so in in play anddrama therapy, when you're doing

(35:06):
a session, um, when, you're inthe middle of a play and then
you're doing something reallyexciting or something really
engaging.
then something happens and thenlike the energy drops, yeah, and
this happens in conversationsall the time.
So we just so we know weprobably had a few actually at
this point where it's just likewe're talking, we're like trying

(35:27):
to get in the flow, we'retrying to get in the uh kind of
like jam together, yeah, andlike sometimes you're in the
flow and then sometimes you'renot and you're still moving, but
then sometimes also the energydrops or you're kind of like,
okay, wait, what was I thinking,what was I just about to say?
Or something you said made methink something.
Um, and there's like a pause.

(35:50):
It makes like things kind oflike slow down or stop
altogether in some way.
And I mean I just actually themore I do with creative process
and the, and especially sincewriting that paper, that was
like such a huge thing to workthrough in myself, because I was
talking also about my owncreative, my own experience in

(36:15):
training, therapy and the thingsthat I was kind of working
through in that, and impasse wasa big part of it, and for so
long I had all a lot of shamearound this experience of
impasse, and I think that'sactually quite common, because I
think when something's flowingand then something stops, there

(36:40):
can be like a tendency to belike wait, did I do that?
Or like what happened, likethis is a problem, right To see
it as like something went wrong.
Or like why couldn't we keep agood thing going?
You?
know, forever, yes, and now Ilike thinking about it actually

(37:02):
as like a in conversation kindof thing is is makes it a little
bit easier for me.
Kind of thing is is makes it alittle bit easier for me, um,
because I love talking to peopleand it's like, oh yeah, of
course, like there are momentswhere this like drop happens,
but, um, often I think in thosemoments there's like a return to

(37:23):
the inside of us or somewhereelse, like our mind goes
somewhere else and we're liketrying to make sense of
something.
And this happens like in likeany kind of creative flow too,
where you're doing something andit's really working and then
all of a sudden, you hit like asnag and it's like wait, ah,

(37:47):
like, and so many differentfeelings can come up.
You can be like I'm done.
You can be like okay, great,that's the end of it, you know.
Or like you could be like I'mso frustrated.
Or you know, have like a lot ofshame.
Come in and be like, ah, Ididn't do this right.
Um, you know there can be griefabout it.
Yep, um, because you're youlost something, you know, in

(38:15):
losing that flow.
So I am fascinated by thisbecause I think, because I have
experienced a lot of it and Ihave always held a lot of
attention around it, and andalso I think it's this I think
it's a natural part of this kindof process that we are all

(38:38):
engaged in all the time, but Ithink also, culturally, we don't
make a lot of space for it ashaving any value.
And I think it has so muchvalue.
I think it's.
I think it's like a, a goldmine basically, of like what's
happening here and how can welike look at this differently?
And I think, like you know, welive in a culture that's so like

(38:59):
go, go, go forward all the time, but actually, if we like kind
of notice the like places wherethere's like an energy dip or
like there's like a pause orlike wait, we have to go
backwards.
We have to like find somethingthat we forgot there's.
There's so much more richness,I think, to the process of, yeah

(39:20):
, just living and creating andeverything that we do.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
You know, yes, yeah, oh, my God, you've said so much
that makes every synapse in mybrain fire.
Like I think about the, like,the reasons for impasse, but I
also think about like how, likeyour question of like, how do I
define it?
I think, historically, becauseof DBT training, I my go-to
answer was it's the drop inenergy, it's losing interest in

(39:46):
something.
But I didn't really actuallyask myself, like losing interest
, like what does that mean to me?
And then assigning a value toit.
Like if I'm leading a group andthere's an impasse within the
group and I was the leader, Iwould assign a value of like you
said, like I've done somethingwrong, as, yeah, and therefore

(40:08):
the group didn't know where togo next, and so that's on me.
I should have given them morescaffolding, I fucked up, crap.
Okay, let's go back to thebeginning and rebuild it again.
And it wasn't until I read yourpaper that I was like wait, the
value of rest, the value ofgiving yourself permission to be

(40:29):
like wait this, because likethere's a beautiful article
written about impasse that camelong before us, about death as
impasse or impasse as death, andso it was like the death of
something before the new thingwas reborn, and so that's kind
of how I envisioned impasse tobe.
But then, when you like, andthat's in terms of DBT, but I

(40:51):
would also like own the value ofit, like, okay, well, I did bad
, yeah, we did the bad deaththing, the bad death.
Now I have to re like,reinvigorate you with life and
something you know like, andoftentimes like in a, a group,
like if that's our associationto what like an impasse is, then

(41:12):
the imagery that comes up inthe play is then like okay,
zombies are now we're playingwith zombies or we're playing
with a different, like version2.0, because that's what we're
all kind of like, stuck withwhat we think impasses right,
right right but when I read yourpaper and you were like, no,
what if impasse is actually apart of the process, not the end
of one in the beginning ofanother?

(41:32):
but it is one huge thing and Ihave to honor it with the same
reverence I do as every otherstep in that process.
Yeah, to then say like okay,then that would mean just as
important as that beginning fora DVT group, a sound movement
that starts our like language ofwhat the group is.
Then I have to honor thelanguage of the silence too,

(41:56):
because it's serving a purpose,because what will be emerging
from that will be more congruentwith where that human is in
that moment and where they wantto go.
But they have like, I think,like for me.
I'm a highly sensitive person,which means my depth of
processing it is deep and thatmy processing was so deep that

(42:19):
sometimes I am a slow motionmover, especially in groups.
And it doesn't have to be a DVTgroup.
It could be like a group chat,it could be a group out on it
for a night on the town andeverybody's in conversation.
They have already.
Because it's a group, peopleare like firing off and I'm like

(42:40):
that thing you just talkedabout like 10 minutes ago, is
blowing my mind.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
I'm still thinking about it.
Can we have like a littlesidebar and talk?

Speaker 2 (42:49):
about it for an hour.
Yes, because, like, I want likethe nitty gritty, like, okay,
you said this word and what doesthat mean to you and how does
it feel in your body?
And, oh my God, like, but like.
What does it mean to you?
Because that is the emergenceof like.
How do I find you and how do Ibuild the bridge to you?
Because I'm going to bring tothat conversation what I define
that as and like.

(43:10):
That's why I think I start thepodcast off with like, tell me
who you are and let's definewhat we're talking about.
Because, like, I don't know whatcreativity means to Marie today
.
I might've known what it meantto you a month ago, but you're a
different human than you were amonth ago, and so am I.
So, like, because of you knowcircumstances that we're all

(43:33):
every day going through in ourlives.
So, like you're stillconsistently Marie and you're
not Marie that from before,you're new Marie, like, same.
So like I want to know.
And so I think, when it comesto impasse, sometimes it's that
like I am moving at a differentpace and you're not, and we
don't know how to find eachother, and it takes a minute
Sometimes it's like whatever yousaid brought up a feeling for

(43:54):
me and I have a differentrelationship to that feeling.
Like, or okay, like, let's takegrief.
Yes, exactly Right.
So like talking to somebodyabout grief, and early on in my
grief process, those firstcouple years, any time somebody
mentioned anything about loss, Iwas like we're in it, dude, oh
my God.
And then I'd immediately leavementally for a second, think

(44:17):
about my mom, think about myfriends that died, and I'd be
like and have to try to likewalk my way back to the present
moment.
Now it's we're coming up onfive years since my mom has died
.
I can sit with my.
I've done enough work on mygrief to work with other people
in their grief.
I won't completely go away.

(44:37):
But if I'm in a creative processand somebody's like, okay or
whatever it is, yeah, a creativeprocess, and it's like grief
enters the picture, enters thechat, or loss enters the chat,
I'm gonna check out for a second, I'm gonna dissociate, and that
is the impasse.
And and the others like wheredid you go?
And that happens inrelationships, I think, where

(44:57):
people are like yo, I wastalking to you, are you even
listening to me?
Yeah, and then they get upsetbecause they feel unheard and
you're like I just totally yousaid the thing that makes me go
to the place or whatever it isyeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
No, I love that Kim wow yeah, thanks for bringing
that in, because that actuallyis so powerful and so relevant
to what we're talking about.
Because I was actually justthinking about when you were
talking about the groups, likedoing a group and having this
experience of like, this kind oflike death process, of like, oh

(45:32):
, we were doing a thing and nowwe're not.
Now and although, like, ifyou're a leader, you're like
assigning this like thing, oflike I did something wrong, but
something about the experienceof that drop, I was also
thinking about how that canhappen with ruptures, like it
could happen, like for so manydifferent reasons and at any

(45:55):
kind of time.
But when you're talking aboutgrief, I was thinking, yeah,
there's so much about we don'tknow.
Actually there's, there's likea not knowing and that the
empath sort of puts us in touchwith, because if you're engaged
in a process or engaged in playor a conversation with someone,

(46:20):
you kind of know where you arein your and you're like jamming
and like figuring out where eachother are and there's like
feedback and you're you'readjusting as you go, um, but
there's something about like animpasse that really puts, I
think puts us in touch with like, oh, we don't know what comes
next ever, and we don't evenknow what's happening inside the

(46:45):
other person you know, and theymight not even know what's
happening inside themselves.
Yep, so there's like unknowing,there's like not not knowing,
and how you relate to that.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
And grief.
I mean, yeah, what a powerfultopic, right Like death and
having lost people that we love.
There is so much not knowing inthat much.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Well, every day is like a wait.
I don't know how to do thiswithout the person, or I don't
know how to do that without theperson.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Like every day, it's like a new discovery yeah for a
while, for the first years, yeah, like you're, like you're, kind
of you also have your, you,this experience of being very
intimately engaged in your ownempaths process.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, like because this is apodcast about identity, it's
kind of like in your experiencesand like how you've like
navigated your life.
How does empathasse andcreativity because they're very
different concepts impasse as apart of creativity, but, like,

(47:54):
how do they show up for you inyour experiences and who you are
?

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean, it's so funny.
I feel like we, when we weretalking about getting ready for
this podcast too and for thisepisode, and we were talking
about empaths, and you were like, well, you're like an expert on
empaths, right?
Like, oh God, am I?

(48:24):
I mean, we've already discussedthat We'm not an, we're not
experts.
But there is like this thingwhere something that has been
part of your experience, uh, forso long, you know, will sort of
follow you and like I have thatwith, with impasse I actually

(48:45):
didn't even have the language.
I will say, like the wordimpasse is kind of new to me.
I mean new in that I think Iwasn't familiar with it really
until we I started dbt trainingbecause there was an, a word for
it in the process, yeah, but Ihad experienced impasse forever,
you know, um and yeah, and myfirst thought so, yeah, there's

(49:11):
this very mixed relationshipthat I have with this thing that
I've been building arelationship to over time and
have all these like struggleexperiences with you know, and
actually also very, quitepainful experiences with quite
painful experiences with, and sothere it's like even now, like

(49:31):
I'm like, yeah, I guess it ispart of my identity.
I mean, I don't know ifidentity that's like a strong
word, it's strong.
Yeah, it's definitely part ofmy experience.
Yeah, it's definitely been partof my experience and continues
to be, though I do think myrelationship to it now has is
much better and different thanit used to be.
And the thing I was going to saywas, I sort of talked about

(49:53):
this before but, um, I mean,even when I started dbt training
, when I experienced impasse inthe play, that actually was one
of the first first experiences Iever had of being in the play
space, which, again, I'll justlike reiterate that I think I
see this like play process asbeing so parallel to so many

(50:18):
other processes and part of whatI love so much about it and
love using it with people withcreative process.
So this is, like you know, notjust just to to talk about dvt,
but like as like a metaphor forother life processes that I've
had too.
Yeah, which is that my when Imy first experiences of dvt.

(50:39):
But I think what's so coolabout dvt is like it's embodied,
so you're really like you'rereally in it really quickly,
right, you're like I'm in mybody, other people are in their
bodies and like we're doingsomething, but it's not clear
really what it is, or it becomesclear over time.
It's like the storytellingprocess and the first ever
experience I had of playing Iwas in a group and it when I

(51:03):
very quickly became sort ofimmobilized in my body because I
was so overwhelmed with all theactivity that was going on and
I didn't know what to do orwhere I was, and I like sort of
checked out and like ended up ina corner, like I'm like
crouching on the floor, sort ofhiding from the rest of the

(51:23):
group, like being like I don'tknow if I'm part of this.
This is crazy you know, um anduh.
I just like it's.
It sticks in my memory becauseI had so much uh like confusion,

(51:44):
shame like curiosity yes likefascination with this thing that
was happening that I couldn'tunderstand and didn't know why
or what it was, but I was like,okay, this is making me feel a
lot of things.
I'm gonna.
I'm gonna probably pursue this.
Such a funny response tosomething that was so weird.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
You know that was my response too.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
And then you know, and then I like went on to study
DVT and for the next few yearsand it was like, so I think,
like I yeah, that's like onething I can point to where I was
like, oh, I, I.
It became very clear in thatmoment to me and I can think
about this for so many otherthings too where it's like the

(52:32):
thing that's hard, the thingthat I can't quite figure out,
but I really want to figure out,that's where they're, all the
energy is.
And maybe in that moment,because I'm fighting or like
really trying to figure it out,and I can't quite untie the
pieces that are all like knottedtogether and there's different
threads, but like I don't knowwhat's separate from each other.

(52:54):
It's not flowing necessarily,but there's so much there that
has so much potential to getlike pieced out and unlocked and
unraveled.
And then you can see like thiswhole picture that's like
actually about all these otherthings, and so it's sort of like
I don't know what to compare itto, like I was trying to find

(53:17):
another kind of, but maybethat's just it.
It's like this like angle, it'sa knot and that's where that
like we talk about this in play,but we follow.
Sometimes we follow where theenergy is, and that doesn't mean
where you like or what you.
It doesn't just mean what isgiving you pleasure, what feels

(53:40):
like it's flowing right.
Sometimes it means what's likeoh, this is complicated this has
a lot of stuff in there, butit's all tied together and we
don't quite know how to makesense of it yet yes, I think
that energy yeah, it's theenergy and that it's like.
It's like where is there likeyeah, I don't even want to call

(54:02):
it a block necessarily, it justfeel like like a knot of things
if yeah there's a lot of thingstied up together.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
I mean honestly, that makes me think about like then
where impasse happens, because Ithink about in play therapy,
when I'm working with a kid,like if a kid is playing with
something and they're like in itand all of a sudden they like,
forget it.
They don't say forget it, theyjust up and yeah, yeah, yeah,
like.
As a, as a play therapist,we're meant to notice, like,

(54:30):
what was the kid doing rightbefore that happened and what
were they playing with?
Like, yeah, like, like,thematically speaking, because
that likely has a tie to like,did we get too close, yeah, to
the material that they'reactually like?
Because, like so much of likein this work that we're talking
about the creative process andplay for children, there's like

(54:53):
a through line there and we'replaying in the world of metaphor
, we're playing in the world ofimagery, we're playing in the
world of analogy, but like we'restill playing with what's at
the core of that, like we mightbe still in a metaphor, but the
metaphor is only the like layeron top of what, the experience,

(55:15):
the feeling, the memory, thewhatever is.
And it, like our nervoussystems don't know the
difference between lived yes,I'm living this right now in
reality or I'm playing in thisimaginal way, the nervous system
just knows I'm doing the thing,so it's still gonna have the
benefits of like you know,whatever it is.

(55:38):
But like, if we think about therole of impasse, then, like the
thing that the like that's animpasse in a play therapy
session, is the kid going likeI'm gonna go play with the
bricks now.
It's like you know, there'slike cardboard brick, that, and
it's like, oh, okay, so we'reusing something very tangible
and like building something tocreate, like bring down the
anxiety.
Because, like the ambiguity ofplaying in a imaginal way with

(56:01):
these characters was sothematically close to what your
lived experience is.
We got too close.
Now we need to contain, we needto structure, we need to
whatever.
But like again, like metaphor,like that's in a child's play
therapy session, we're doingthis all the time in
conversation.
Like if we hit an impasse, it'slike, oh, did we?
We got, we got close to afeeling or an experience that

(56:25):
maybe the two of us don't wantto wrestle with right now
because it's whatever, um, orlike I haven't done my work on
it, you have, and so like wedon't know how to negotiate that
and so we just go, yeah, andthen, like somebody says, oh,
how about the weather?
Huh, it's been snowing a lotlately yes, exactly yeah, I love

(56:48):
that.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
As you were talking about that, I was thinking about
how fiction writing does thesame thing, because it's you
know, fiction writing is likeyou can.
You're making a world, it couldbe anything.
So it's all it's all metaphor ina lot of ways for whatever
you're thinking about living,experiencing.
But I was just thinking abouthow there also can be this

(57:11):
feeling of like oh, like youknow that's avoidance.
Or like if you're like, oh, hitthis thing, like I gotta go
over here now, like how we cankind of say, well, and then now
that's not the right thing to do.
But actually I think maybe thegoal isn't even necessarily and

(57:31):
I don't I'm not saying this iswhat you were saying, but I was
making me think about how I'vethought about it in the past and
I was thinking the goal mightnot even to be, might not even
be to stay with the hard thingall the time, but to but to know
the, the process right, becausewe can.

(57:52):
We can be like we'll hit asensitive point in the
conversation and be like, okay,actually the weather and not,
and we can do that and not evenrealize that we're doing it.
But I think what's so juicy islike if you can do it and then
and you can switch to theweather and then, but know that
that's what you're doing andknow that that's what you have

(58:14):
as, like a, as a out.
You know, and that could alsoshow up in your creative process
, whatever you're doing, to justknow like, oh yeah, when I hit
this thing, I do this otherthing and that's part of my, and
then maybe I actually need somespace to look at it from over
here and not be right next to it, but to be like, yeah, the

(58:35):
weather, speaking of the weather, you know what that reminds me
of this other thing?
You know, it's like kind oflike be giving yourself the
right distance, or like allowingyourself to play with that too.
Like with the, yes, with the.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Coping with the, with all the patterns that exist in
you, yes can I introduce aconcept to you and then get your
thoughts about it?
Okay, yes, I would love that.
So, um, I've gone down thepathway of the neuroscience of
creativity and and in one of theresources that I'm utilizing,
they mentioned there's like youknow how they love to have these

(59:11):
, like, like, catch things soyou learn and remember things.
They said there's four P's ofthe creative process, or for
creativity, rather, but thething I should also point out
that I hadn't really put a lotof thought about.
I say creativity in my world,and I'm often thinking about
artistically, and then also likewhat is the creativity of how I
live my days?

(59:32):
Like how do I choose?
Like what I'm wearing, orwhat's my morning ritual, or all
of those things, but then alsolike am I like how do I create a
playlist I want to listen to?
Like, or whatever, like I thinkabout it in lots of ways, but
the indicators of being able torecognize an instance of
creativity in the like, researchof creativity.

(59:52):
I found this like I don't knowwhy I didn't think about it in
this terms.
They said there's like theproblem solving, science, logic,
creativity, so they're studyinglike problem solving, and like
how we utilize, like essentiallynon-repeating elements and what
factors need to be there forsomebody to create something new
that will be helpful for people.

(01:00:13):
Then there's the artisticdomains, which is the way I
always viewed.
Creativity was like, you know,the arts of art, music, dance,
literature, fashion, all ofthose things, theater but it's
really the sum of all of it.
That is like all of creativityand I was like, oh yeah, because
we're using the science, thelogic, the problem solving of
creativity when we're trying tocreate, we just don't like lean

(01:00:37):
into it yeah, we are problemsolving yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
I don't know if we talk about that very much though
in when we talk about, like,artistic creativity, but it is
problem solving.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Yeah, I mean, there's so much discernment in that
process too of like, what am Ichoosing?
Like, what am I trying to say?
How do I wish to say it?
Yeah, and when I do createsomething and I look at it then
I'm like, well, does thisexactly say what I want to say,
how I want to say it, or do Iwant to change it in some way,

(01:01:11):
shape or form?
But that's all it's like.
There's like the process, andthen there's these little
processes like little.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
But okay, so I was reading about the four P's of
creativity.
So there's process, thecreative process, the product,
the person and the place.
So when it comes to the person,they say the definition is the
person generating the creativeidea or acts.
So that would include theirpersonality, their intellect,
their temperament, theirphysique, their traits, their

(01:01:45):
habits, their attitudes, theirself-concept, their value
systems, their defensemechanisms and their behavior.
That's a lot more than a P.
That's a lot more.
Well, that's all within person.
Yeah, and I was like butwouldn't you also consider
culture?
Wouldn't you also consider likeso much more?

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Like, yeah, so I'm going through these because
there's a a part that I was likeoh, marie, and I gotta talk
about this.
Um, product is obviously likewhen an idea becomes embodied
into like the tangible form ofwhat someone's trying to express
.
That's the product.
Now, here's the one that I waslike oh, so the the so process,

(01:02:28):
product, person place, this isplace.
But they, they did like adiagonal place, slash press, and
I was like what's, what's thatmean?
So, really, it's five p's.
They lied um pressures, thefact.
Oh, that's why I was like wegot to talk about this?

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
Oh, I like it.
Why do I like it so much?
This is why you do what you do.
That's so annoying.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
It's annoying at all, and if it is, we are the most
annoying mofos on the planet.
This is like where I'minterested.
That's why we're sitting heretalking about it, like it's so
interesting to me.
Um, yeah, so the factors thatare present in an individual's
place, situation or environmentthat influence their capacity to
be creative.

(01:03:18):
So like, interestingly, there'sresearch on all of the.
Well, I didn't go.
I'll go through the fourth oneand then I'll tell you the other
piece.
Fourth stage is process, whichis what we've been talking a lot
about today.
It's the study of, like youknow, the what underlies
creative thought, the motivation, perception, the thinking, the

(01:03:40):
learning and the communicating,what we're doing to create, um,
and involves the intricacies ofthe creative mind.
The process approach readilyaligns itself to the
neuroscientific perspective, soit's easy to study it because
you're like looking at thedifferent parts of the brain.
All of these have like all fouror five rather, but really four

(01:04:01):
areas have significant research.
This is when I was talkingabout how do you get empirical
research and creativity.
Some of these have likeories ofresearch that are well
established.
Empirical research is there.
Can you guess which one doesn'thave as much empirical research
?

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
is it pressure?
yes wow, that's actuallyfascinating though, because I
feel like it would be sopossible to study and right, so
obvious, what like when peopletalk about this all the time.
Wow, I'm really curious.
That's so interesting.
I wasn't sure if I was gonna beright when I asked, when I
guessed that 100, because I alsohave heard so much about I mean

(01:04:43):
, I was just thinking when youwere saying pressures, I was
thinking about oh yeah, there'sthis whole thing, this whole
thing about ideal, the idealpressure.
Right, you can have too muchpressure.
You can also have too littlepressure.
Yes, I think it'scounterintuitive sometimes, yes,
um, but yeah, the there'speople talk about this, uh-huh
uh-huh.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Well, because, like, what you're alluding to is like
the, the idea of flow, whichwhich then kind of like leads us
to like optimal performance.
So that's true in likeperforming arts, mental health,
like to have that, like you gotto be a little anxious, like a
little bit, in order to like dothe thing, but you also can't
like pass the threshold oryou're not going to be able to

(01:05:27):
remember, like what chord you'replaying, yes, yes.
And then you're checked out andthen you're noticing the person
in front of you like singinglyrics that you're like wait,
there's lyrics to the song likeyou're just gone.
How do you help your folksidentify like what they need in
order to access different partsof themselves and their

(01:05:49):
creativity?

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
yeah, um, well, the.
I don't know if this is wherewe want to go, but I feel like
the thing that's coming to mind,which I think is relevant for a
lot of people, it's just likethe amount of stress in your
everyday life and how it hampersor motivates you to do

(01:06:17):
something new or do somethingcreative, and I think there's
like there such a balancebetween is also there's the
pressures, but then there's alsothe structures that you have to
implement these things like ifyou're, you know, I don't know
what's it, what's a good example?

(01:06:38):
Well, I actually I'll just getyou to use myself, because I was
in.
I think this is what I was justthinking about my different
experiences I've had, just asI've gone on my own career
trajectory.
It was making me think aboutwhen I was working.
So, shortly after I left CIS,when I was in DBT training, I

(01:07:02):
was working also as a counselorin the Alameda foster care
system and working with kidszero to 21 who had been removed
from their home or was changingplacement in the foster care

(01:07:23):
system, and it was a super likehigh stress, I would say like
trauma filled environment.
It was also an amazing workplacefilled with really incredible
caring people and I learned somuch doing that work.

(01:07:44):
And also I remember sort of Iwas there for two and a half to
three years and over the courseof that period I remember, like
towards the end of it, feelinglike, wow, I just don't have the
same space in my life anymorefor my own creative stuff, like

(01:08:09):
I used to paint, I used to writea lot and then, like when I
started that job, I was so onall the time, like my nervous
system was just like so on allthe time when I was working that
I would home and you know, alsowork weird shifts and stuff
like that were like up untilmidnight or, you know, I would

(01:08:29):
work swing shifts, so alsogetting weird, weird sleep.
And I was just thinking aboutthat because I was thinking like
, no matter who you are, nomatter what your job looks like,
you can be in a position whereyou're giving so much of
yourself to something that isalso not leaving space for other

(01:08:50):
things, or um.
So yeah, I think that I thinkabout that is related to this,
like pressure yeah um, pressureconversation and um, and I also
think about, like I don't know,like parents, like like moms who
are like giving so much ofthemselves to their kids and

(01:09:12):
also working, and um, just thatit can be really hard to
actually carve out time andspace for letting yourself be
creative when there's all thisother stuff that you have to do.
You know, and I think that'sthat can be true for anyone we

(01:09:34):
can all get stuck in that trap,Like I don't have children and I
can get stuck in this, likekind of like oh well, instead of
sitting down to write, I'mgoing to go do the laundry or
whatever.
You know, yeah, but so I don'tknow, I'm kind of.
I'm kind of I don't know if I'mstill on topic, but it's like
there's these.
There's like I'm thinking aboutstructures and pressure as

(01:09:56):
being sort of like together, butthey are set like these
separate pieces of it.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
There's so much in what you're saying in different
ways throughout our wholeconversation today that I'm
hearing like the importance ofgiving ourself permission for
space.
Like space, yes, huge yeah, itdoes.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
Yeah, and part of that is is eliminating pressures
if you, if you feel overpressured in some way.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
It's sort of like yeah, like, what kind of space
is it?
Is it actual time or is it likeenergetic space?
Because both, both are true.
There's like psychic space.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
There's yeah Time.
There's physical space, right,if you don't have a place to go
to do something.

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
I mean, I think about writing a final dvt paper maybe
.
Um, like like right before werecorded this, I was speaking
with chris and she was likewrite your paper.
And I was like write your paper.

Speaker 1 (01:11:12):
And I was like gotta go record a podcast, Bye.
Be over here talking aboutcreativity.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
But like hold on.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
I need to laugh about that because that is really
funny.
I think it's funny and fun butlike the part that I've been
stuck on writing in my paperwhere I've been like I was in
flow, like when I finally got tothe place, because the topic is
about grief and alsodeconstructing developmental
transformation concepts in mylived life, in the experience of

(01:11:53):
grief.
But I couldn't start writingthat paper because I was too
under distanced.
I was too absorbed in it.
I was too in it for the firsttwo years of my grief experience
.
And then I said like, well, nowI've got energy, I want to get
up and I want to go out and dothings and I'll write about that
.
And so I found writing aboutthat early part initially very

(01:12:16):
difficult, but then, once I gotinto it, I was able to do it.
Writing about the second part,when I went out and did, it was
like hey, this isn't that bad,keep going.
Part.
When I went out and did, it waslike, hey, this isn't that bad,
Keep going.
When I got to the part that wasthe hard, like how am I like
digesting this and what doesthis mean and what am I trying
to tell you about?

(01:12:36):
Like what I'm learning aboutmyself and others in the world.
Impasse, so under distance,because what I had learned was
such a brand new concept to me,I did not have structures in
place to be able to articulateit first of all for myself, let

(01:12:59):
alone for someone else, aboutwhat it is.
So I think about the, the, therole of like under distanced
over distance, like of likeunder distanced over distance,
like if I'm too over distance,there's not going to be any
connectivity to what I'm saying.
It's going to sound like jargon, it's going to sound like
bullshit and I don't want that.
But if it's, that's if it'sover distance, if it's under
distanced, I'm going to be aheaping pile of which.

(01:13:23):
I think when I was in DVbttraining initially, like when
you described, like your firstgroup that you were in that I
had a very similar experience.
I was like I'm not used topeople relating to me in this
way and I want it so badly andI'm so drawn to it and it
terrifies the hell out of me andso I am shutting down
internally and I do not know howto relate to you.

(01:13:43):
But I knew I wanted to go back.
I knew I wanted to like, findmy way there.
But like that process of tryingto figure out like what is
happening for me so that I canfind you is, was not only
present in the dbt experiencebut in this like creative
process of writing for me aswell.

(01:14:04):
I mean, there's so manyparallels because I think like
we could talk about dbt yes,this is this like most people
won't know what it is and wetalk like kind of tangent not
tangentially and ambiguous,ambiguously, and they'll be like
I still don't get what it isand I'm kind of like it doesn't
matter because it's literallylike shows up in everything else
in our lives, but likeespecially the creative process

(01:14:27):
and writing.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
Well, what you're talking about reminds me of like
this I feel it sounds like whatyou're saying is like that
these patterns that come up inrelationship.
You can tell me if this is whatyou're saying or not?
This is something I think abouta lot, so I think it's
connected where these patternsthat come up in relationship,
where you want to be seen butyou also are scared of that.

(01:14:49):
The same thing can happen whenyou're writing just by yourself
about anything, but especiallyabout something that is about
you, that you are workingthrough, because you it like it
is a relationship.
I think it feels true to me thatwhen you're creating something,

(01:15:12):
you're you're actually relatingto yourself and you're also
relating to something else.
I mean, I don't, I, I feel likethere's this other, that, this
other piece that's sort of likemystery and the world and your
psyche and everything that'sunconscious in you and all this.

(01:15:33):
There's a lot that's outside ofus.
There's, it's a lot.
There's a lot that's biggerthan us, and I think you're
relating to that.
Even if you're alone, you'rerelating and you're creating
something.
You're relating to the energyof the day, you're relating to
your feelings, you're relatingto yeah, so that all of that is

(01:15:56):
happening and so the same kindof patterns can come out,
because it's also relational.

Speaker 2 (01:16:03):
Yeah.
So it's, yeah, yes, intrapersonal versus interpersonal.
Yeah, yeah, I, since since wewe've been in training together,
I've gone totally down theunion path.
So, like the it makes me thinkof like the collective
unconscious, of like creatingour own, we have our own

(01:16:25):
experience, but then we're alsotied to this larger humanity
experience that like we're kindof tapping into in so many
different ways.
Um, but it's also so ambiguous,because it's like what do you
mean?
The collective unconscious?

Speaker 1 (01:16:39):
but it's like what you're saying do you feel like,
yeah, when you're, I mean it,you can also detour us if you
don't want to go here.
But I'm curious about like thislike paper writing thing.
It's like do you have aspecific?
It's like a specific.
Well, it's like a certain partthat makes it feel like and

(01:17:01):
you're like okay, no, I don'twant to.
It's it makes me think of whenI sit down to write and I feel
dread Like is that a similar?
Are you having a similarfeeling or experience?

Speaker 2 (01:17:10):
around it, yes, and like cause, cause, because I'm
that slow processor I have tofigure it out.
Like wait, what are theimportant parts for me?
Totally, yeah.
But then it's like well, it'skind of like counterintuitive
because like, well, if you writeabout it, you're going to find
the important.

Speaker 1 (01:17:30):
Right, right, I know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:31):
And you're like.
You're like, maybe I don't wantto know.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
Maybe I don't want to want to know what's important
yeah, totally.
Or you feel like you have toknow already.
Right, to sit down and write.
I think that's actually.
That actually is so.
I feel like I bet so manypeople can relate to what you
just said.
It's like I feel like I have toknow what is going to come out

(01:17:53):
of me before I sit down to dothe thing.
Yeah, right, this is a blockthat happens in play all the
time, because people are likewait, you want me to move my
body without knowing what I'mdoing?
Are you kidding?
Kidding me?
It actually is like people havethis response where they're
like no, no.
Like no, thank you, actually,I'm gone.
That's stupid.
Or like you want me to drawsomething without knowing how

(01:18:19):
what it's gonna look like no.
Like you don't want to see thatPeople have this response where
they're like no.
Like you don't want to see thatyou know people have this
response.
They're like no, you don't wantit.
That's gonna be, that's gonnabe fugly you know you will be
harmed by ugliness.
Yeah yeah, yeah, but yes.
But then you are cuttingyourself off also from the

(01:18:41):
experience of surprisingyourself or of or of confirming
your worst nightmare andrealizing that it's actually not
that bad.
Nobody was really harmed byyour stick figure drawing.
It was maybe even kind of cute.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
It's got a little like smiley face, like yeah yeah
, oh, my god, um, okay, so oneother concept I wanted to run by
you and get your thoughts onbecause it felt very like
creative process-y and then Iwant to talk.
We'll bring our conversation toa close, okay, so there's.
Are you familiar with GrahamWallace?
Okay, some dude he's namedGraham came up with like a four

(01:19:20):
stage of creative process thingand it made me think when I read
it it it made me think of youand I was like stole from marie.
Okay, first stage is thepreparation super conscious,
we're trying to figure out whatdo we want to do, like, like,
whether it's a problem or acreative act.

(01:19:41):
Second stage is incubationunconscious process.
Engagement with the problem isat hand, but we don't take any
effort and it's directed towardsany, any effort, directed
towards the problem, because weneed a period of rest oh, my god
, that's so good, oh, that's sogood right yes good Right yes.

(01:20:03):
Yes, and I was like, oh, thatjust confirms, like Marie, stamp
of approval.

Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
Because, like you're so, like the period of rest is
like the second stage, becauseyou love that, I love that it's
early on, because we cause, Ithink, sometimes I think of it
as being later down the line,when it's like, oh, and then I
got stuck and then I gave up, orI didn't want to do it, you
know, but it's actually like,yeah, what if you gave it?
What if you, what if you gaveit its own?

(01:20:32):
Yeah, I love it Second.
I love it Second.
I love that it's great.

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):
It made me think of like when we've had previous
conversations and you talked tome about your final paper
writing and you were like I hadto like walk away from it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:45):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:20:46):
Like I had my job that I went to.
It wasn't the job that you justspoke about, it was a different
one, very different energy, andyou just put yourself in that
environment for a while and asyou continued on, you gave
yourself again more spaceenergetically, psychically,
whatever, to then create whatyou ended up creating.

(01:21:10):
And I was like this is Marie.
I got really excited when Iread it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:17):
Oh, I love that.
That's so fun, kim.
No, it's so real.
I actually was talking about itis making me think, oh,
actually, yeah, becausesometimes actually, if I were to
track it I mean I'm not sayingthere's not necessarily this
like map that fits all Rightright but.
I do think sometimes impassehappens right after I realize

(01:21:39):
that I need to do something newand I've in the past thought, oh
man, am I really just giving upbecause it's too hard to think
about doing something new?
And I've in the past thought,oh man, am I really just giving
up because it's too hard tothink about doing something new.
But the truth is that sometimesI need time to consider this
new thing before I act on it ordo anything with it, or have the

(01:22:03):
act on it or do anything withit, or have the juice to give it
time and space.
And so, yeah, that makes sensethat I like that as a second
step.
I love it that you couldintentionally give yourself too,
that you could actually be likeI'm going to have an idea and
instead of going to work on thatimmediately, I'm gonna now not

(01:22:27):
like sort of subconsciouslythink about it for two weeks,
yeah, or a month, or howeverlong it takes.

Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
You know, you get to decide it makes me think of,
like the folks let's say they're, um, an artist and they're like
a painter, and they're tryingto create a specific type of of
painting and it's just not goingthe way they want.
Like they're coached whetherpainting or it could be any
other direction.
But some folks are coached tobe like, okay, drop the painting

(01:22:56):
for now and go do some music.
Go make some music.
How's the music gonna informyour painting?
Or vice versa, being the artistor the musician, that's like
okay, well, I, I can't write, Ican't finish the song, I can't
figure out what the bridge is,and it's like, okay, well, why
don't you go paint for a while?
Or go write a fictional shortstory?

Speaker 1 (01:23:16):
yeah, totally yes.
Yeah, do something else whileyou're percolating on this other
thing.
I love that.
Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:27):
The other two stages, illumination.
So it's marked by the solutionconsciously emerging, fully,
formed in one's mind as a suddenflash of insight.
So I think about the role ofinsight.

Speaker 1 (01:23:38):
I love that.
Yeah, yes, oh, struck bylightning.
Yeah, it's like, does that Jumpout's about a bed?

Speaker 2 (01:23:47):
yeah, it doesn't always look like that, but there
is this like deeper, like, oh,things feel like they're
starting to like form, I'mstarting to be able to like I
don't know, this is my movement,for it, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
I like it yeah, um, I like it.
I mean, how often, when you'reworking with people, do you

(01:24:12):
experience?

Speaker 1 (01:24:12):
people having that like flat lightning bolt of.
I do, I do have it and I do.
And I was just gonna say,actually I think it's so cool
because we're like what we'retalking about is helping me also
just remember the things that Ifeel like I've been learning
about how the way you treatimpasse or relate to that stage

(01:24:36):
can do everything for what comesnext.
Yeah, right, so like if youliterally think about because we
were just talking about howthere's like a germination, what
was it called?
What was the stage called thatyou were the incubation,
incubation, okay, so like it'slike an egg.
I think about the metaphor of aseed a lot that was in my paper.

(01:24:57):
Yeah, it's underground, youcan't see it and you don't know
what's going on down there.
But I could be frustrated, sofrustrated with that fact that I
like then rip up the earthright and like destroy

(01:25:17):
everything or I'd never comeback to it.
I don't, I don't, I likeabandon it.
You know there's so manydifferent ways I could relate to
it.
I'm thinking of ways that I usedto relate to this experience.
It's like, okay, seed in theground, all destructive, like I,
I don't, I don't want anythingto do with it.
But there's another way torelate to it, which is to say,

(01:25:39):
seed in the ground.
Okay, like, let, this is partof this thing and I want this
thing to grow.
I'm gonna keep watering it.
I have to have faith thatsomething's happening, even if I
don't see the tangible resultsof it.
And then, when it does sproutbecause it will, I think it will

(01:26:10):
.
I think, if you give that thespace, the time and space for
something, it might not look theway you thought it would.
Right, there's a lot to be saidfor things not going according
to how we planned them.
But, then that's the inspiration, it inspiration.
It's like, oh, it's fullyformed.
There's like it might not, it'snot fully grown yet you have to

(01:26:31):
do a lot of work to keep likedoing it.
But like it's a thing, it's a,it's a tangible thing.
You know, yeah, and if I, if Ileft, if I didn't come back to
it, I wouldn't see it.
If I had like destroyed it, itmight not happen.
So there's like how you relateto the incubation stage feels

(01:26:58):
like it.
It um, kind of lays thegroundwork for what comes after.

Speaker 2 (01:27:04):
Yeah, I mean just that last part of what you're
saying too.
It makes me think like,depending on which choice you
make, what you end up tellingyourself about your capacity and
your capabilities and what youbelieve the creative process to
be around that thing.

(01:27:24):
Yeah that it.
Those are three very differenttrajectories.
Yeah, tear it up and likedestroy it right you're.
I would imagine there'sprobably a shame spiral.
I shouldn't yeah, we should andshouldn't show up.
Yes, we shouldn't run it.
Oh god, now I've really fuckedit up.
I don't know what to do now.
Now I have to start all overagain.

(01:27:45):
Oh god, I don't have the energyanymore.
Right, right, right, like thatself-defeating, self-limiting
yes stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:27:52):
Yes, if you walk away , okay, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah,
no, sorry, I was just gonnachime in because I was thinking
you made me think of another, awhole other alternative, which
is like to be like to you duringthat incubation phase.
You're like your negativeself-talk comes in right and
you're like I'm not doing thisright, this is not good, it's
not working.

(01:28:14):
Um, and in that process, if theseed then comes out of the
ground, you might just, youmight uh downplay it also you
might be like oh, this thinghappened, but like whatever,
whatever you know, but then it'slike that's your inspiration,
you keep going with that, likethat's the thing you wanted, but

(01:28:35):
it's like so, um, it's socrushed by this other thing.
Right, that happens.

Speaker 2 (01:28:42):
I think people do that a lot in their lives when
they're like I wish for thisthing, I wish for this thing, I
wish for this thing and they getso caught up in the trajectory
of the wish, like the process ofwishing, that they don't
actually realize that, like,whatever they wished for
actually manifested and I don'tmean in like with hippie to be
manifest, I mean like it happensbut they're so focused on the

(01:29:04):
trajectory of what the futurecould look like they're now
already on another dream.

Speaker 1 (01:29:09):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):
I mean like yeah, so so they don't, they can't take
in that they like, oh, no, like,but you wished so hard for that
in here it's arrived and, likeyou said, it might not look
exactly as you thought, right,but most of the time it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
But can you sit with what this is Like?
This is Mm-hmm.
You did this Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:29:35):
Mm-hmm, it's a big deal.

Speaker 2 (01:29:39):
But no, okay, we're going to look at the far the
distance.
Got it, got it, got it.
But like, okay, we're going tolook at the far the distance,
got it, got it, got it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:52):
But like, yeah, but okay, yes.
So I guess I just was going tosay that does that does happen.
I do see clients having thatexperience and I think it's like
, and also, and also, thatexperience of being so far
future oriented is also sorelatable, like I, you know, to

(01:30:14):
get stuck there to feel like youhave to problem solve out here
in order to do the thing righthere is like, but so to you know
, I think we need, we need help.
We need help sometimes, likecontaining that or having a
process or structure to explorethat and someone else to like
help us stay on track with whatthe thing is.

Speaker 2 (01:30:32):
You know, yeah, um, yeah, yeah yeah, the other piece
is like if you get up and walkaway, you might tell yourself I
wasn't capable.

Speaker 1 (01:30:47):
Uh-huh, Exactly, yeah , totally.
I think that happens all thetime.
It's like oh, I walked to it, Iused to do that too.
I mean, I, I I'm saying thislike I've worked through all of
this, I'm still in process withall of this.
I was like oh shit my head.

(01:31:12):
I was like, oh shit, it's really, it's you know, it's an ongoing
practice, um, but it's good,because I think it's good to
remind ourselves of these things.
It's like, oh yeah, if I walkaway, then I walked away and I
might have a story about whathappened, but I, you know, we
need to give ourselves thechance to to have these
successes and and see what comesout of them.

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):
Yeah, that last four, the last stage of the four
stage creative process fromWallace.
So the last stage isverification.
So that's involving theconscious deliberation and
working out the details ofwhatever the solution is or the
creative like product will be ohcool.
Yeah, yeah.
But man, when I got to that theincubation I was like I gotta

(01:31:52):
talk to marie about theincubation uh-huh yeah I mean we
could go down a whole notherpathway of like the how like
rest is, like the, thedefinition of rest, and we're
not definition but the value ofrest, and how it's devalued like

(01:32:13):
um.
But as far as the creativeprocess goes, how, how do you
work with folks around likeleaning in and then leaning out,
like what does that look like?

Speaker 1 (01:32:27):
Yeah, I mean it happens very naturally.
I because I I mean DVT.
I think this is why I use DVTas such a tool in my work, but
just the way I work in generaland what I really love to do
with people is to have like anemergent process.
So sometimes people aresurprised by that.

(01:32:48):
They're like oh, I thought wewere going to come in here and
like, get this, this and thisdone and like you know, and then
be out on my way, and it's sortof like well, that's I.
Actually we can do that and andwe could, you know, make goals
to check off our list to do.

(01:33:10):
And I think what can be reallyinteresting is to hold those
goals in mind and see where weare right now with them.
And often I will.
I will say almost every time.
I can't think of a time thatthis hasn't happened but we'll

(01:33:34):
address what is coming up in themoment and figure something out
about how that's connected tothese other things and something
about that.
I just had to say this is amystery to me still, but it's so
and like it's so engaging andso exciting to me, so I keep

(01:33:58):
doing it with people.
It's like what's so exciting islike that giving that space and
making room for us to exploreand then making those
connections can like basicallyunlock all this energy to then
make someone feel like like I'vehad people tell me like wow,

(01:34:21):
after our session, I just likewent and did all the things I
needed to do because I was soenergized by everything we had
talked about and like I, youknow, I just had all these
different ideas like it's whatwe were talking about, this
inspiration that happens.
So they were just like I hadall these ideas that were

(01:34:42):
related to all this stuff andthen, like you know, I didn't
stop writing for an hour orwhatever you know.
So I can't remember now youroriginal question, but Me
neither, because I'm fascinatedby this.
It's, that's how, that's how.
Yeah, I can't remember exactlywhat you was.

(01:35:03):
That's how.
Yeah, I can't remember exactlywhat you was.
You asked something about how,how I work, and that's like
emerge with this emergentprocess of what's coming up
right now, because I actuallythink it's so practical.
It seems maybe on the outsidefrom our like logistical brains
that it's not the practicalthing to do, but in my
experience it is usually themost practical thing for me to

(01:35:27):
do, but in my experience it isusually the most practical thing
for me to do, because we're soembedded in the patterns of our
lives, so like in so manydifferent ways, in so many
different layers, that it'sgoing to show most people want
to avoid the present moment.

Speaker 2 (01:35:42):
And so you're literally saying like you want
to work on all these things.
They're here, they're, they'rehere in the room with us.

Speaker 1 (01:35:50):
yes, exactly they're here right now.
Like what do you want to talkto them right now?

Speaker 2 (01:35:56):
right, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and I think that is
the hardest.
I find that the hardest sell tosomeone who's not familiar with
this kind of stuff.
You're like it seems like we'rejust going way left field and
trying this like rando thing,but you're actually saying no,

(01:36:18):
like I took everything that yousaid and also I want to pull in,
like can I find you?
There you are.
Oh, look, all those things thatyou said, they're kind of like

(01:36:39):
they're here, but like we haveto find it together and it's not
going to again.

Speaker 1 (01:36:41):
It's not going to look how you think it's going to
look.
Yeah, it might surprise you.
There might be things I thinkthere's like there might be
pieces that you forgot about ordidn't realize were connected or
didn't realize you were havingthis feeling about this thing
that's impacting the way thatyou've been working on it.
You know, love this, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:02):
What have we not talked about?
About creativity that you wantto make sure we talk about today
?

Speaker 1 (01:37:08):
No, I think we talked about a lot of things that are
really that I like, I don't knowthat I have one, I don't have
an agenda.
I really I appreciate all thethings that we have talked about
.

Speaker 2 (01:37:22):
I love it If people want to talk to you about
creativity or impasse or thetype of work that you do, or
they want to work with you.
Where can they find?

Speaker 1 (01:37:31):
you.
They can find me through mywebsite, which is
mariecbroadwaycom.

Speaker 2 (01:37:38):
Booyah Marie.
Thank you for coming on theIdentity Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:37:43):
Thank you, Kim, Thanks for having me.
This was so fun to jam with youon all this stuff.
I'm like, oh, just like everytime.
We're just like opening doorslooking to see what's in there.
We're so curious.
We're like curious little.

Speaker 2 (01:37:58):
I don't know this movement, curious little
creatures.
Every time I get to talk to you, you just make my brain go All
right everybody, Thanks so muchfor tuning in Well, I'll see you
next time, Thank you, Thank you.

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