March 1, 2025 • 81 mins
In this conversation, we explore the intersection of musical theater, identity, and empathy through the lens of Gordon Leary's work. Gordon shares insights about writing characters that resonate on a human level, the collaborative process of creating musicals, and how personal experiences inform their storytelling. The discussion highlights the importance of understanding diverse human experiences and encourages audiences to engage more deeply with the narratives presented in theater. We also delve into the role of pop culture in shaping contemporary themes and the future of musical theater as a reflective art form.
• Gordon Leary discusses their journey as a musical theater writer
• Exploration of empathy vs. sympathy in storytelling
• The role of collaboration in the creative process
• Reflection on the influence of pop culture in narratives
• The importance of presenting complex characters vs. caricatures
• Insights into the future of theater and evolving narratives
• The challenge of self-definition in an artistic context
• How personal experiences shape creative output
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The Thank you.
(00:58):
Hello everybody, welcome to theIdentity Podcast.
Today I am joined by GordonLeary.
Gordon is a Brooklyn-basedmusical theater writer,
(01:20):
originally from Chagrin Falls,ohio.
Originally from Chagrin Falls,ohio.
They write human scale musicals, maybe some plays that
investigate, question andexplore ideas of empathy,
community, the search foridentity, joy, grief, the power
of legacy and growing up.
They tell stories drawn equallyfrom real life and the
(01:41):
mythologies of American popularculture.
Gordon Treasurer'scollaboration, inquiry and the
theatrical imagination.
Hi Gordon.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Hello, hello.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I'm so glad you're here.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
It's so funny to hear you read my bio that I, like
you know, took my time trying tofigure out like the smallest
way, the short, smallest numberof words in which to let someone
land on my website.
So I appreciate hearing it backseveral years later.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I love it.
I think that I mean that justspeaks so much to like what you
do.
Good, that skill amazes mebeyond belief because my brain
just processes so many things Idon't know how.
Like like, teach me Jedi, teachme.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
It's my least favorite thing.
Biographies and synopses arethe things that, just like you,
want me to distill.
I generate, I don't distill.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Exactly yes, thank you.
Well, after reading thatprofessional website bio, how
does that define you?
Are there things that are leftout from what you've said
because you did have to distill?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I don't think there are things that are left out.
I would say that the craziestpart of it is I'm always trying
to figure out tone and like thedifference between sounding
professional and sounding likemyself.
And it's something that you knowevery time I apply for a grant,
every time I fill out anapplication form, there's always
(03:27):
the push and pull of, like I ama writer, so my voice is, like,
really important, and how do Imake sure I'm communicating not
just the information but also,like the essence of who I am and
what I do?
And so I think, you know, Iused to have a very like here
(03:49):
are credits, here are, you know,here are the organizations with
which I've worked, with whomI've worked, with which I've
worked.
See, I can't be formal, Meneither, and so I feel like that
bio was an attempt to be alittle more in my voice.
I think, yeah, so I'm sureit'll get an edit sometime soon.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Noted, because we are constantly evolving creatures,
exactly exactly.
Yeah.
So I feel like so much ofidentity is voice and through
the like the media you create.
I mean, can we talk a littlebit about, like, how do you
(04:37):
channel your voice?
Like, is this a conscious partof your process when you're
writing, a conscious part ofyour process when?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
you're writing, I feel like I always.
It's an important part of mywriting to make sure that I am
writing things that are thatsound like they're being spoken,
yeah, and so I, you know, Ihave lots of ellipses and lots
(05:06):
of like, just like I'm doing now, like starting to say something
and then rephrasing and blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, and so I
think I think those kinds oflike very human things are.
I think the humanity of voice,of a voice is is what gets me,
(05:29):
and there are people for whowhose voice is very formal and
who speak with precision and allof those things.
And so, you know, there arerare instances when those people
appear in my work, but it isappear in my work, but it is
(05:55):
something that interests me islike, how do people actually
speak?
And I actually think, as alyricist, it clever or being, or
like being a show-off with,like, the play of language.
There are times when itcertainly lands, but I also
think that I always try to makesure that the things that I'm
(06:18):
writing and the characters thatI'm writing sound like real
people yeah and then the.
the joy and magic of musicaltheater is that I then give that
to my collaborator and they canmake it sound like more than
just a person, or they can makeit sound like an even more
specific person, or they canlocate that person in a specific
world, or something like that.
(06:39):
So oh, cool.
Yeah, that's.
I don't know if that answersyour question.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, I think so because I just think it's so
fascinating.
So your creative process, soyou are a lyricist and you work
with someone who is a composer.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
How does that?
Because I think most peopledon't.
I mean, I don't know how manyfolks know about that whole
process.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I've been in the world of musical theater, and I
don't think I understand howthat process really goes.
I think it's different for eachcollaboration.
I think you know my primarycollaborator, julia Meinwald.
We are both like there.
Well, first of all, we are bothvery private writers and we
don't the idea of, like, goinginto a room and writing
(07:25):
something together terrifies usboth.
Um, and, and we also have verydifferent processes where I am
like a, let me think about thisfor three weeks and write a few
lines and then come back andrewrite it and all that stuff.
And julia has this magicalability to like, say, from 1, 30
(07:46):
to 4 30, on this day I'm goingto write the music for this song
, and that just like mystifiesme.
I mean, I'm, I'm in awe of that, um, because it's so the
opposite of me, like, like.
Usually I just have to say,okay, this night I'm staying up
and I won't let myself sleepuntil I finish something because
(08:10):
I've been thinking about it forthree, three weeks, sometimes
three years, yeah, uh.
And so our writing process islike, I mean, we of course talk
and agree on what things aregoing to be, primarily when
we're first exploring.
Sometimes I will just be likeoh, I had this weird idea, and
here's the lyric, um, butprimarily it's I generate a full
(08:33):
lyric and send it to her, shesets it and then there's back
and forth from there um.
So our process is likediscussion based, but not not um
, we don't generate togethernecessarily, whereas I've had
other collaborations where thatis the case, where, um, you know
(08:55):
, sometimes we'll be talkingabout a moment and the composer
will say I have this musicalidea that I write lyrics to an
existing melody and things likethat.
So you know, there isn't a hardand fast rule, and I think
there are certainly people whodo it any number of other ways
(09:17):
too.
It's just about finding whatfeels organic and feels like I
don't want to say safe, becausethat's not the right word, but
feels like the best way for youto be creative.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, how do you end upfinding, like, because it's such
an organic process, how do youdecide like, oh, this is what
we're, this is the directionwe're going, this is the topic I
really want to dive into, like,this is what we're, this is the
direction we're going.
This is the topic I really wantto dive into.
Like, how do you organicallyfind, like, the story that you
want to tell?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
It is almost always like finding a story that
mystifies me or shocks me or,like you know, we my like grant
answer is I always look forstories that pose questions that
I don't know the answer to, orpeople that do things that that
(10:14):
I would never do, and I use mywriting to to find those answers
, and not even answers, becauseI don't think that, as a
storyteller, I don't think it'smy goal to provide answers to
people.
It's my goal to like, makepeople think and maybe guide
them towards what I think, butthey don't have to necessarily
(10:35):
agree.
I think I always like a musicalthat ends on a question um?
Rather than a like here's I, Iwould.
I would not be a good Asok.
Let's say I'm not here formorals.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
No.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
I'm here for explorations, yes, and so I, you
know, I think most of the timeI have an idea and will email
Julia and be like is this crazy?
And she's like, no, that'sgreat.
I think you know, a lot of themare pulled from kind of, as my
(11:18):
bio said, like pop culture,mythology, so things that are
like little random articles youhear about, or things that are
on it like six 28 at the localnews, like little human interest
stories that are strange.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah.
And those are things thatreally interest me, and just
things that, like, resonate withwhat I want to know about the
world, which is, you know, howpeople, how and why people are
people yes, it's interestingbecause we have different, like
(11:54):
we came from similar backgrounds, but we have different avenues
at which we've explored thatsame conundrum, but we're it's
the same query, that we're bothkind of like navigating just in
such different ways.
Yeah, absolutely, so absolutelyyeah, um, so, like you've
written, I love that you choosethese, these that, like you're
(12:17):
pulled to like the humaninterest stories, like, and
you're honestly you have been apillar to me of like holding the
reverence of pop culture.
Yes, you do it in multifacetedways, whether it's through
writing or art.
Like, can you talk about, like,what that journey has been for
(12:40):
you?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, been for you.
Yeah, I think.
Um, I think I've always beeninterested in, like, ideas of
celebrity and fame and infamy.
Yeah, um, and I think part ofthat is being a proud elder
millennial.
(13:00):
Um, I think that ideas of fameshifted with that generally,
with the advent of the internetand social media and all of that
.
Do you consider yourself Gen Xfully or you're an elder?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
millennial too.
I'm like that in between.
I think that like it'sinteresting to me too because,
like I like when, when I've beenin relationships and I'm
partnered with someone who'swithin the same age bracket but
they're like a little bit olderthan me, they identify as Gen X
and it's like literally months,yeah.
(13:41):
But I more gravitate towardslike millennial culture because,
like I was still like going toshows or like interested in
whatever was being created, thatlike I think at a certain point
maybe some people are like I'mgonna put my focus towards these
other things, but I've alwayswanted to like like whatever's
(14:04):
being created.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I'm like yes, yes, yes, yes yes, yeah, yeah, well,
but I also think that there'slike, there is a uh, there's
like a shift from cynicismtowards like just kind of
searching for a pure joy.
Yes, and I think that that ispart of my part of what draws me
(14:27):
to pop culture is finding thejoy in it all.
And finding I mean, you know, Ihave this.
You referenced drawings I havethis long standing art project
that is, portraits of primarilyReal Housewives, although I've
branched out into other thingsbecause there's a limited number
(14:51):
of Real Housewives moments thatI can.
After four years, I've gottenthrough most of them, I should
say but I think there's like a Idon't want to say reverence,
but like there's like a I don'twant to say reverence, but like
there's like a respect for themas humans that I enjoy.
(15:11):
And there's like it's possibleto both wink at something and
love it yes, and it's possibleto be laughing along with
(15:49):
something, with respect of those, both of those almost polar
opposites, yeah, or bridgingbetween those two things is
feels like a being part of alittle bridge to micro
generation.
Um, uh, but yeah, and when itcomes to musicals, I feel like
the stories that I want to tell,when I start telling people
about what I'm writing, peopleare always like, oh, that's
hilarious, assuming that I'm totell.
When I start telling peopleabout what I'm writing, people
are always like, oh, that'shilarious, assuming that I'm
going to make fun of whatever itis.
Yeah, the first musical thatJulia and I wrote together is
(16:11):
called Pregnancy Pact.
We started it in 2009, whichwas the year, or I forget if the
actual thing happened in 2008or 2009, but it was.
You know, there's this storythat appeared in Time Magazine
about Gloucester, massachusetts,and this rash of pregnancies at
their school, and the principalsaid blamed it on the girls
(16:34):
making the pact to get pregnanttogether.
You know, two months later,reporting came out that it was
no, it was actually because theschool changed their policy to
give students free pregnancytests but not free condoms, and
so like it was a policy thingthat led to that and they were
(16:55):
in a school where it felt likethey didn't have options and you
know, or they were in a timeand in a place where it felt
like they were.
Many of them felt like theydidn't have options.
There was no pact or anythinglike that, but that like took
hold of the imagination andthere were lifetime movies about
it and there were, you know,summer beach reads about it.
And when I read that article Iwas like this is fascinating.
(17:16):
What, what in the world wouldmake people do this?
And so then when I started tosay I want to write a musical
about this, people would wouldbe like, oh, that's so funny.
And I'd be like, but it's notfunny.
It may be funny to someone else, but that's not what interests
me.
And I think that that goesalong with even the funny things
(17:37):
that I write.
I don't think are like funnyfor the reasons people assume
they will be funny.
Yeah, yeah, I don't like tomake fun of people.
I don't like to.
I'm not interested in heroesand villains and things like
that.
Now I feel like I've gottenaway from pop culture.
(18:01):
But yeah, it's all like.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
But it's all connected.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, yeah, you can see, you know, kenya Moore
twirling on the Real Housewivesof Atlanta saying she's gone
with the wind fabulous.
I'm like, yes, it's silly, butthere's also something wonderful
about it and it's likebeautiful the colors that she's
wearing against the background.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And so, you know, drawing it is is funny, but it
also it doesn't have to bemaking fun of people yeah, I
feel like, whether you'rewriting a musical or you're
creating a piece of art, what,what I hear and what you say is
like finding the humanity inwhatever the subject is, is what
(18:49):
keeps you away from likemockery keeps you, keeps you, it
keeps you connected to likewhat the felt experience is, the
human experience of it.
And I feel like whether someonethinks that content would be
like hilarious if the the moreyou stay grounded in that
humanity.
(19:09):
That's how, like I know in ourprevious conversations we've
talked, we've talked about likecamp and and like camp done well
, is, is, is a story that hasthe humanity in it and like.
Maybe we'll have moments oflike humor, but there's a real
felt sense of like.
(19:30):
I feel with this character, orI see this piece of art and I'm
like oh, oh, I remember that,but also I felt that Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
It's like this balance of irreverence and
reverence.
Yeah, how do you hold both ofthose at the same time?
Yeah, yeah, as a musicaltheater writer not to go all
Rodney Dangerfield, but likethere is a certain.
(20:04):
There's a certain.
There's a certain like I don'tknow sheen over musical theater
that people make assumptionsabout what it is and what it
isn't.
Yes, and so I think that thatin and of itself is like a
reason that people assume thingsare silly because they think
musicals are silly.
(20:27):
You know, this is a little sidecomment, but I feel like writing
musicals is one of the onlythings that people can look at
you and say, oh, I hate thething that you made, and feel
like that's fine.
I've had so many like goodfriends of mine.
Be like, well, musicals arestupid, but I.
Or be like, well, musicals arestupid, like, but I or be like,
(20:48):
well, I don't like musicals, andI'm like, but that's literally
what I'm devoting my life toJesus.
Yeah, wow.
So I think there's there's likea little, there's like a little
dismissiveness about musicals.
Yeah, there's like a littledismissiveness about musicals,
(21:09):
yeah um, but so that's separatefrom camp, I guess.
Well, I mean, or maybe, is itnot?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
maybe not because I feel like okay, so I I want okay
.
So here's a wondering I have doyou think that, like disdain
for musical theater stems fromlike assumption based on like
classical musical theater, whereit's like the you know the very
predictable tropes that Ihonestly think it stems from
(21:36):
people being forced to go seetheir friends and use in their
high school musicals.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I mean, yeah, they're like they're.
You know, maybe, maybe seven toeight percent of high school
musicals are good and well done,but like that's part of how
people learn yeah, you know,gotta start somewhere, you know.
Oklahoma is a phenomenal,incredible musical.
Yes, anything by by Rodgers andHammerstein, they like invented
(22:04):
the form, they did.
Anything by Rodgers andHammerstein, they like invented
the form.
Anything by you know, the PajamaGame is a wonderful musical and
silly and fun, and all that, ashow ahead of its time yeah, I
love the Pajama Game, but like,but when you see that with, when
you see it done in in certainsetting, in a certain whatever,
(22:30):
and you get the sense thatthat's what it is, then people
are primed to think that that'sall.
Musicals are Fair and I havestarted to turn that around to
be like well, if people can saythat they think musicals are
stupid to my face, then I haveno problem saying I think that
Marvel movies are stupid topeople's faces even when they're
(22:53):
wearing a you know'm.
Like you think it's silly thatpeople think out of nowhere, but
I think it's silly that peopletake superheroes seriously when
(23:13):
they're silly too, Like I don'tknow it's all I mean all of it
could be misconstrued as sillywithout that context to the
humanity in it.
Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah yeah.
So let's come back to the camppiece.
Yes, I totally did, Because Iasked that question, because I
got like curious about it.
And it's not me dissing onclassical musical theater just
to say because, like you know,West Side Story is still one of
my all-time favorite shows I'veever been in.
I've ever seen oh, absolutelywho?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
did you play?
I've ever been in, I've everseen, oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Who did you play?
I'm embarrassed.
You don't have to say.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Did you play Maria?
Yes, it's okay.
We all have those moments.
We all have those times.
We shouldn't have done them.
It was a different time.
It was a different time.
We wouldn't do them now.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
No, we would not.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Which is also funny, because you'd be a great
Graziella.
Ugh Oobly-oo.
Or is that Gra whatever theother one is.
I forget Graziella and Velma.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, it's been a minute since.
I've seen it.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Velma, is it Velma?
Speaker 1 (24:21):
No In the Sharks.
Yeah, in the Jets In the Sharks, yeah, in the.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Jets In, the Jets In the.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Jets, the Jets.
I don't know because I wasn'tin the Jets world.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
But back to camp.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
But back to camp.
I mean that's camp.
I mean, true, casting a whitegirl is camp Truth, but high
schoolers don't know what campis and therefore they see it and
the high schoolers who areperforming it don't understand
that it's camp.
And so maybe that's why peopledon't make musicals.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
I wonder the misunderstanding of what camp is
.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Well, that gets to the question of whether camp is
always intentional or not, whichI don't know the answer to.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Okay, here's a question as we start talking
about this topic what is thecampiest show you've ever seen?
That was done perfectly.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Not perfectly, but really great.
Uh, no, but really great.
The.
The best use of camp to me isalways charles bush.
Um, the one that I saw multipletimes was um the divine sister,
which was the send-up of nonemovies, uh, but everything by
charles bush is likedefinitionally.
(25:43):
Everything by the B-52s isdefinitionally camp.
You know everything by um, ohgosh, and I think there's a
difference between camp andcomedy.
I think camp is there's like anarchness and a queerness to it,
always Um, but I think thatthat is like.
(26:03):
Charles Bush is my and theB-52s are my gold standard for
what camp is.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
So what about you?
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I mean, if I'm just narrowing it down to musical
theater, I'm going to go back toone of the shows that I
remember talking to you aboutmany years ago Debbie Does
Dallas.
I think that was the first showthat I saw where I was actively
(26:43):
aware, like, okay, we areplaying with so many different,
but there's there's heart in it.
There's like I felt connected,like I felt connected to the
characters in a way that I wouldin a comedy or a drama of any
other format, and I had neverhad that experience.
(27:05):
So I'm just talking abouttheater, I'd say.
Debbie does dallas, however, Imean my number one movie that I
love of all time is the campiestpiece of stuff that has ever
existed.
It's a parody of the pirates ofpenzance, but it was done in, I
think, 1982 or 1983.
It's called the pirate movieand they take who is it?
(27:26):
Christopher, christopher atkinsand christy mcnichol.
Okay, I feel like I have.
I might afford you to watch itat some point.
Okay, it's on youtube.
You can watch the whole moviefor free wonderful they take
some of the actual gilbert andsullivan uh music, rewrite the
lyrics so like during I am thevery model of a modern major,
(27:50):
major, general it's like man I'molder than the Beatles, but I'm
younger than the Rolling Stones.
He's older than the Beatles,but he's younger than the
Rolling Stones.
It's ridiculous.
So there's that part of it.
But then there's also becauseof the time frame.
They wrote their own 80s synthpop wonderful and it's all done
(28:13):
as a dream sequence amazingbecause we love a dream sequence
.
We love a dream sequence, butlike so, yeah, uh, like there's
like real, like like when theymeet on a beach, which I visited
in Australia because I love themovie so much, I went to all
the places they filmed it.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
That's incredible.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
But when they meet on the beach there's this like
super imposed, you know, likethose pictures from was it Olin
Mills in like the 80s where theyhad the head in the background
and then the person's in thefront like ah, um, yeah, that's
how the like meeting is on thebeach, where they're like
singing to each other, but thenthere's this like super imposed
floating head of them singing,oh god incredible, it's
(28:58):
incredible and that was myintroduction to camp was when I
was like a baby, baby, like.
That movie had been out for afew years by the time I saw it
and I fell in love with it.
I watched it, like I want tosay every day.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Incredible that it's that I feel like my introduction
was probably Big Business, oh,which I feel like qualifies.
Yeah, lily Tomlin and BetteMidler.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
But All right.
So can we talk about speakingof like finding material in camp
and all these things?
Can we talk about the musicalthat you wrote about Anita
Bryant?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yes, rap, rest in Pie .
Rest in Pie, bryant.
Yes, rap, rest in pie.
That wasn't my joke.
I think it was Coco Peru's joke.
Okay, I can't claim credit forit, but it was too perfect, okay
, yes, she just passed away afew weeks ago at 84.
(30:04):
She would have turned 85 inMarch okay, was this one of
those experiences where you sawa story and said, oh, I got to
write about that um, it was, andI feel like it's pretty
emblematic in that it was like Isaw a moment, which is the
moment that Anita Bryant got apie thrown in her face and was
(30:28):
like that's the kernel of anidea, and then found the story
around that and I think thatthat's, you know, pulling from
pop culture Higgins throwing thepie in her face, posing as a
(30:49):
journalist, throwing a pie inher face, and then she and her
husband, you know, she says atleast it's a fruit pie, which is
hilarious.
And then she remembers that sheshould start to cry and she and
her husband pray for him and allthis stuff start to cry and she
and her husband pray for himand all this stuff.
And it just felt like, you know, I wanted to know what brought
(31:11):
him there and what brought herthere, and they were, and so,
yeah, and so the story grew outof that.
I think at first I didn't eventhink that he was going to be
that big a part of it.
I thought maybe he would belike a, you know, always lurking
with a pie in the background.
I thought it would be muchsillier than it was, than it
wound up being um, that wouldhave been a very different show.
(31:32):
Yes, yes but what it wound upbeing was, um, you know, kind of
somewhat controversiallyhumanizing Anita.
I think for me there's a fineline between empathy and
sympathy and this is a showthat's big on empathy and not
(31:55):
big on sympathy.
So this show wound up being kindof like dual protagonist story,
and it's weird to say that theprotagonist of the musical is
Anita Bryant, who is a generallyand deservedly reviled person
(32:20):
among my various communities, myvarious communities, um, and
whose legacy comes back up allthe time save our children, save
our children in, you know, thecurrent discussion about
grooming and all thosehorrifying things, um, but there
(32:44):
is a part of me that's likewell, she was a person at one
point before she was acaricature, and how did she get
there?
And how did you know cause shewas semi-famous, she had a
million lives, she you know,reading about her, she was this
person, the kind of person whowas like I am born for something
(33:05):
great.
She was like you know she I'mgoing to mess up the story
because it's been a while sinceI read her biography but you
know, she was born andpronounced dead at birth and
then her grandmother, like,brought her back to life.
I didn't know that, oh yeah, soI'm paraphrasing.
I don't remember the exactstory, but something where she
(33:28):
was like I was saved by God forsomething great, and so the
story is about her trying tofind what that greatness is and
she, you know, starts.
We first meet her when sheloses Miss America, and then we
see her be like a middling popstar, and then we see her be
like a middling pop star andthen a spokeswoman, like
(33:51):
spokeshome maker for OrangeJuice, which is probably where
she became most famous was asthe Orange Juice lady, and then
all these different things.
And then she started to shelike went on this crusade
(34:11):
against, uh, I mean it wasspecifically against teachers,
gay teachers.
In miami there was an ordinancethat she spoke up against, um,
that would allow for the firingof employee.
It was a non-discriminationordinance, um, and she spoke out
against it.
And then, kind of ordinance, um, and she spoke out against it
and then kind of took offnationally and had the whole
save our children campaign andeverything like that.
(34:32):
Yeah, um, and so it's a youknow, it's a, it's not a
traditional hero um, uh.
And then it that her story istold next to the story of a more
imagined story of Tom Higginswho we don't.
(34:52):
There isn't a ton to know abouthim.
So in our story he's Tommy andin many ways he's a surrogate
for me in that story talkingabout.
You know what it felt like togrow up, what it felt like to
grow up, what it felt like tocome out, what it felt like to
be disillusioned by people whoyou know what's looked up to and
(35:13):
all this stuff and so it.
You know in the end they meetin the pie, with a pie in the
face, with a pie and you know itstarts out the.
The first song is Tommy baking apie with his mom and she says
whenever life is bad, there'salways pie.
And that comes true in the end.
Genius, but it's.
(35:34):
You know it's like a silly.
It is also a silly show.
There are six actors who playall you know Anita and Tommy,
and then an ensemble of four whoplay all of the other
characters, including Tammy Fayeand Phil Donahue and Lawrence
Welk and Kathy Lee Gifford, whowas as a child or as a young
(35:56):
woman, was Anita Bryant'sbabysitter when she was
Catherine Epstein, right aftershe was born again.
Yeah, wow, I mean, and it'slike one of those there.
There's so much pop culture init and so much like, so many
little reference points that arethat were so much fun for me
(36:20):
too.
And Marianne Mobley is theperson she lost Miss America to,
who went on to become anotherlike, like minor celebrity, who
was like the kind of person whowas on Love Boat and things like
that and was, you know, was on70s game shows and et cetera, et
cetera, who was married to, Iwant to say, gary Cooper, like
(36:41):
it.
Just, you know, there's allthat fun classic pop culture and
when we did our production ofit.
They our amazing, incrediblecostume.
Well, the set design was we dida production at Diverginary
Theater in San Francisco or SanDiego, sorry which is the third
oldest LGBT theater company inthe country wonderfully, lgbt
(37:02):
theater company in the country,wonderfully.
They're an incredible littletheater who does big and they do
big, big things.
And our set design was made tolook it almost looked like the
match game set, yes, or likelaughing slash match game.
(37:22):
So there are like windows thatpeople could pop out of um, and
the costumes for all of the likecelebrities were almost like
paper doll cutouts, so peoplewere had like a neutral costume
and for the people in tommy'slife and and like anita's sister
and things like that, they woreregular clothing but like, when
(37:44):
the actress came out as askathy lee she was in, she had
like paper sculpted hair and aflat dress in front of her that
she danced with um, and so, youknow, there's that like archness
about it and that sensibilityabout it that is.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
That is camp in its way yeah there's, that was long,
sorry, that's okay, likethere's so many pieces, I like
took a couple notes because Iwas like I want to come back to
that.
I want to come back to that.
I I think this whole process oflike the unlikely hero in the
story I'm hearing like so muchabout, like when you say the
(38:28):
difference between empathy andsympathy and I talk to people a
lot about that in the work thatI do because, like Brene Brown,
I don't know if you've ever seenBrene Brown's video about the
difference between empathy andsympathy- I have not no, oh,
it's a great one.
It's on YouTube.
It's like a little cartoon andsomeone has animated it and I
don't know the illustrator, so Ifeel bad for for bringing it up
(38:48):
without naming the illustrator.
Um, but the the whole conceptof the video is like saying
empathy is feeling with theother and sympathy is trying,
essentially trying to divertsomeone's attention away from.
So, like empathy is, oh, thisis terrible, tell me about it.
(39:10):
Can I sit with you in this?
Sympathy is, oh, sorry, thatsucks, you want sandwich?
Like right, like that'ssympathy.
And I think when you're tellingthe story about, like when
you're choosing to write thisstory and you're like, okay, I'm
gonna make this show about thisperson that has made efforts
(39:31):
that are not necessarily full ofempathy, but I'm choosing to
write a story about empathy andI'm going to tell both
characters stories, it's I hear,and what you're saying is like
I will infuse humanity into bothcharacters, because that is the
bridge between myself and Iknow.
(39:53):
You said like tommy's characteris like the voice that might be
your voice in the story, right,but it also sounds like you're
infusing the humanity intoanita's character as well, so
that it it's like the'reinfusing the humanity into
Anita's character as well, sothat it's like the bridge
builder between the differences.
Does that I mean?
Does that I don't know like?
What are your thoughts of that?
(40:15):
It feels very poignant to me aswe speak about this today, in
2025.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think I think that itgoes back to this whole idea
that I don't.
I don't necessarily fullyinvest in the idea of heroes and
villains.
Yeah, I don't, I don't investin ideas of, because the second
(40:44):
you have a hero and a villain,someone is another and someone
loses their humanity on bothsides.
I mean, you know, because thenheroes have to become infallible
and can't be human and villainsare deprived of their humanity.
And, yes, there are people whodo terrible things, um, and
(41:04):
there are people who are doingterrible things right now, but I
think the only way I think notthe only way, because I don't
know how to solve the worldproblems but I think that the
approach that resonates with meis to think about the human side
of it, because I think the onlyway you can connect with people
(41:26):
is through humanity.
So the only way I can talk topeople who I have political
disagreements with is byrecognizing that they're a
person and not what's the Gen Z?
Not an op to show my one and ahalf generations to remove from,
(41:52):
from the lingo, um, but and Ithink that I think that a lot,
of, a lot of the things that Iwrite about are like that.
That you know.
It's not about letting peopleoff the hook.
It's not about making excusesfor people, because seeing
(42:14):
someone as human isn't making anexcuse for them.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
It is saying this is the place where it's the the
only possible way that we canmeet is by is by having empathy
for one another, and the onlyway that I can tell you that
you're wrong is by talking toyou as a human and not as you
know, I think it's the oppositeof Twitter basically, or X, I
(42:43):
don't like calling it X.
Twitter basically, or X, Idon't like calling it X but the
opposite of social media is, youknow, is that is empathy.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Yeah, it takes the humanity out of it and to me it
just screams like all the morereason, like all the more
importance for art, because artis like, the creation of art is
finding that that connectivity,not only from character to
character, but from charactersto audience, it's like.
(43:16):
So this kind of like thenstarts to lean us towards the
idea of perception.
Um, but just, it just feels soI don't know, it just feels so
important right now.
I don't know what I have to sayabout that.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Yeah, well, and I think I think that I think that
people, I think that right nowis a it's a hard time.
It's a hard time to thinkdeeply because there's so much
to think about and there's somuch coming at us at all times,
and so it's hard to like.
Let me sit for an afternoon andthink about this one idea,
(43:55):
because then you get a pushnotification on your phone that,
oh, there have been two planecrashes, it's just nonstop
bombardment, um, and that'sreally overwhelming.
But yeah, yeah, the it's, and Ithink that's been going on for
(44:22):
eight years now, nine years now,that in one way or another,
there's like this overarchingsense of dread that's hard to
push through.
Well, this is the sad part ofthe conversation.
But I think that it's easy toget caught up in the dread when
(44:47):
it's not, when it's about forcesrather than people
conversations.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
We've talked a little bit about that, but we were
talking about it in through thelens of creation, like creating
art.
Um, there's my individualexperience, and then there's
also what the collectiveexperience of this piece of art
really will be.
Um, we can tie it to being anartist in the world that we live
in now, or or we can tie tojust the general experience.
Your choice.
(45:27):
How do you navigate individualidentity versus like collective
experience identity, like?
How do we maneuver through thatwhen you're creating a piece of
art?
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Well, I think in musical theater there's very
little room for individualidentity, because it is an
entirely collaborative form.
Theater in general iscollaborative, but I think that
musical theater is made by acommunity.
So, while I may have the germof the idea, the you know silly
(46:06):
metaphor, but, like I may be, bethe grain of sand, but the
pearl is made by everyone.
Um so like, uh, yeah, I mean, Ithink there's so many layers of
community in musical theaterthat, you know, I write a lyric,
but then my lyric is foreverchanged by the way that the
(46:27):
composer sets it, which isforever changed by the voice of
the person who sings it, bothpractically and just
interpretively.
You know, there's no, I am, I amnot a performer like that.
And so I, you know, I am not aperformer like that.
And so I, you know, I needsomeone else to do those things.
(46:48):
And then, you know, and thenworking with a director and a
creative team will always bringout new things about it.
And and bring, you know, Ithink, even if it just starts
with my point of view, my pointof view, the point of view of
(47:09):
the piece will always come backto me, but it will always be
shaped by other people.
You know, talking about theproduction of the Loneliest Girl
in the World, the Anita Bryantshow, like I had no idea how it
would be designed and that isnot how I would have thought
(47:31):
that it would be designed, butit made, it gave so much.
It gave it, built upon theideas of the show, so much to
have paper doll costumes and agame show set.
And so you know, there are allof those layers.
(47:51):
And then the last layer is Iwrite for audiences.
I don't write well, I mean, Ialways have to answer.
I always hate the question whois your audience?
Because I'm like my audience ispeople, uh, but I, I wouldn't
get anywhere if I only wrote formyself.
So, like, the last thing isalways, the audience is the
(48:16):
final collaborator, um, in, infiguring out what, what art is,
yeah, and I think that that.
So I think in.
I mean, I don't think there isany kind of art that isn't, by
(48:36):
in in its nature, a collectiveexperience.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
That's fair, because once you, I mean go ahead, go
ahead.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Yeah, like like once something goes into a museum,
the curator is deciding where itgoes, how it's Not always even
how it's displayed, but whatit's next to what story it's
telling.
Within a room, within a gallery, yeah, and the people walking
by are experiencing it the waythat they're experiencing it,
(49:05):
and so so you know, a paintingis a painting, but the way that
people see the painting is justas much about the painting, is
just as much the definition ofthe painting as what the artist
put onto the canvas yeah, I,it's like that concept of like
you create something but onceyou give it to the world, it
takes on a new.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
So this, this concept of transformation, like how big
is the transformation is?
Is it a partial transformation,is it a full transformation?
But we don't ever reallyactually know if it's the
audience experience or, like youknow, perceiver of the art,
because we don't have all oftheir like background of
(49:46):
experiences in which they seethrough the lenses of.
But if it's theater, I thinkit's just so much about, like,
the reaction to like do peoplesay whoa after a show?
Or yeah, tell other peopleabout it.
I saw the show, I'd like you togo see it too.
It was important.
Um, yeah, I feel like once itthat that type of response is
(50:09):
often the like.
That's the transform,transformation where it's no
longer it's like, you know,whenever we do a show and the
and the director's like this isyour show, now it's like, uh, I
remember being like a youngtheater kid, being like I don't
even know what that means.
I'm just gonna do what you toldme to do and I'll do it.
But then later, like afterdoing of making that show, and
(50:31):
I'm like, oh my gosh, that mustbe.
Has there ever been a time thatyou've created a show and said
(50:51):
wow, I did not expect that to bethe response, but it's changed
it completely.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
Um gosh, I don't, I'm not sure.
I'm not sure how to answer that.
I mean, there's certainly, youknow, that's the power of doing
a reading and doing a workshopand things like that is
(51:19):
understanding, understanding howrhythms work and understanding
what is resonating with people,and I think there are.
I mean, I do think that you'realways looking for how people
(51:40):
respond.
I've been very lucky to be ableto have been writing a lot.
A lot of what I've written hasbeen in writers groups, so
there's like constantly gettingfeedback from other writers and
directors and things, um, and sothere's that level.
There's like then, when youfinally present a full thing,
there's that level of responseand feedback.
(52:00):
And there are, um, you know, alot of.
I think.
A lot of what I look for isconfirmation in the things that
land and then finding the ways,finding because you can tell
(52:21):
from the get-go if something isconfusing, from the get-go if
something is confusing.
And, yeah, there have certainlybeen times that I've presented
things and people have been veryconfused by them, and that's
fine and that's useful.
But it doesn't feel good in themoment, but it's useful, that's
(52:44):
fair.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Yeah, can we talk a little bit about the show that
you're working on now?
Speaker 2 (52:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
I love it.
I love it and I want the worldto know about it.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
Oh, thank you.
Well, so it's called theseFamiliar Spirits and it is about
a reunion of some of the Salemwitch trial accusers who come
back to Salem Village 23 or soyears after the end of the
(53:20):
trials and the witch hysteriaand everything that was going on
then, so in 1716, as they comeback to attend the funeral of
one of their fellow accusers andwe follow four women who are
now in their 30s and 40s who arekind of revisiting this moment
(53:44):
for the first time.
Three of the four of themhaven't returned there since
they left after the trials.
They've all gone on to havefamilies and have homes and all
of these things, but they'vebeen kind of haunted by those
events and what they did andwhat was done to them and all
sorts of things.
And at the same time, and whatthey did and what was done to
them and all sorts of things,and at the same time, while
(54:06):
those four survivors of it cometogether, there are also a
handful of ghosts of people whohave passed away in those
intervening years who are thereas well, kind of guiding the
living people towards aresolution that then comes when
(54:28):
the magic happens that theworlds collide and they face
what they've done and, um, yeah,I mean our, our stupid elevator
pitch of it is this is thecrucible meets the big chill.
Um, but you know it's not thecrucible, because the crucible,
(54:50):
the crucible is a wonderful play, but the crucible has very
little to do with history.
Um, and so you know it's, it'ssome of the names that you would
recognize from the crucible, ifyou know the crucible.
Uh, but the people are very,very different.
Um, and yeah, it came out of.
(55:10):
We started writing it or I guessI had the idea, much like all
things.
I was like, hmm, I wonder ifanyone knows what happened to
mercy lewis and I've alwaysloved mercy lewis because her,
the stage direction thatintroduces her in the Crucible,
(55:31):
is something like she's like afat and sly girl of 17 or
something like that Fat and sly,or plump and sly, something
like that.
And I've always just been likewho is the person who is
describing this poor Like?
That is how she's rememberedforever and you know, and there
(55:53):
are other pieces of art thathave, there are TV shows that
have used her and other things,but I've always been like
whatever happened to her, alwaysbeen like whatever happened to
her.
And so I started researching itand and found out the stories
of all sorts of the accusers.
(56:13):
And when I found out that AnnPutnam Jr, who was one of the
main accusers, her parents, thePutnams Thomas and Anne Sr, were
like In some tellings of thestory, were like the people who
(56:36):
pushed it forward to gain morepower in the town and all sorts
of things.
So when I found out that shedied when she was 36, it felt
like that was an opportunity tobring them all together.
And they all you know, theylived in Gloucester or Woburn or
you know places that were notfar from Salem Salem Village,
(56:57):
which is different from SalemNow, danvers.
Danvers, massachusetts, is nowthe town that at one point had
the witch trials.
But, yeah, and it just is likea so yeah, sorry, we started it
in, we started thinking about itin like late 2020, early 2021,
(57:23):
as, like, how do we a storyabout reckoning with harms that
you have caused and harms thathave been done to you, and how
in the world do you move throughthat?
And, like you know, thesepeople did something terrible,
(57:47):
um, whether or not they werepuppets of other people to do
these things.
They are the names that areremembered.
Abigail williams is the namethat is remembered as, like this
traitorous woman who wasactually an 11-year-old girl who
did not have an affair withJohn Proctor, who was 60.
(58:07):
Thanks, arthur Miller.
But also, like you know, thestory is that she, they were
like doing stupid littlefortune-telling things to find
out about their future husbandsas 11 year olds, as a 9 and 11
year old, and as we do itsleepovers at that age exactly
(58:31):
and abigail, in the fortunetelling they were doing, saw a
coffin and was freaked out by itand that's like the thing that
started.
It was like like a very regularlittle occurrence that led to
all of this.
You know historical upheaval.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
Which feels well, let's just say wow.
Speaker 2 (58:59):
Yeah, yeah, well, and it's.
You know, it's also about likegoing back and looking at the
crucible.
When I think about that play,when I think about stories, the
girls are always the thingthat's the most interesting to
me and they're like literallybarely in it, my adorable little
nieces I shouldn't call themlittle nieces because they're
(59:19):
freshmen in high school orthey're in the ninth grade.
Their high school did aproduction of the crucible this
year and I went, got to go seeit and they played two of the
accusers and they are likeliterally barely in it.
Abigail does more as, but likeabigail's presented as some tart
(59:41):
, like yeah, uh, and, and so itwas shocking to me that they
were given such little voice.
And again, like anita bryant,they're these people who did
something that we understand tobe terrible, but they're human
beings and they got to thatplace somehow and got away from
(01:00:06):
that place somehow.
And what is that story?
And that's kind of the heart ofwhat we're writing.
Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
I love it.
I was privileged enough to hearAct One, at least at that point
in time.
I'm sure it's changed by thispoint, but it's so incredibly
cool.
Are you like?
Is there a theater?
That's like commissioning thisto be move into a production, or
where are you in the journey ofthis?
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
It was commissioned by Flint Repertory Theater in
Flint, michigan.
They produced the worldpremiere of our show, the
Magnificent Seven.
They produced the worldpremiere of our show the
Magnificent Seven about the 96Olympic women's gymnastics team
US women's gymnastics team.
And so we've done one reading.
(01:00:56):
I think I haven't looked at ourcontract in a while.
I think we, like we'll haveanother reading and then they
have the first right of refusalto produce it.
But there's no guarantee thatthey'll produce it.
But um, but we love them, we,you know, we've kind of found a
sweet spot with lovely, daring,um, smaller regional theaters
(01:01:17):
who uh have is really, I mean, Ithink they're smart artistic
directors because they'reprogramming our work, but like
artistic directors who do thingsand and artistic and like
create uh, artistic leadershipthat does not only our work but
(01:01:39):
work by friends and work bypeople we respect, that like
would be considered challenging.
Um, yeah, uh, that aredifferent from doing, you know,
a wonderful production of noisesoff, which has its own merits
it does, but there's less, lessrisk taking and allowing new
(01:02:01):
like.
I think it's a big risk to allow, especially for like arts
organizations today, um, who areworried about bottom lines but
then they're not willing toallow new voices into those
spaces yeah, it's a freaky timeto be to be making theater, um,
(01:02:23):
but you know, theater has alwaysbeen made and always will be
made, and amen, it may just, itmay just be a paradigm shift
yeah, but I'm so excited aboutthis show and and whenever the
next reiteration comes around, Idon't see it yes, I'm, I'm
(01:02:45):
excited.
We've been recording madlyrecording demos, because we had
we had a reading in november inmichigan that was very brief and
so we didn't get a full senseof the score, um, because it was
just too much to ask of actors.
They did wonderful, wonderfulwork and, um, now we are
(01:03:06):
bringing it back and instead ofasking, you know, seven actors
to learn 40 songs, we've asked abunch of friends to learn a
handful of songs each to record,um, and so, yeah, so we're we
should be mixing those thismonth, I hope, which will be
nice to hear.
Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Nice.
So, gordon, we've talked abouta lot of different themes
throughout this conversation.
Whether it's through yourdrawing, your art that you've
made or the pieces of theaterthat you've created, a lot of
those themes explore thehumanity and the humanity of the
characters, their voice, theiridentities.
(01:03:48):
Can you talk a little bit moreabout, like, how does
self-definition of identity playinto those, uh, that process?
Um, whether it's throughcommunity, whether it's through
your creative art itself, themedium, can you talk more about
that?
Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
Yeah, I think that something as a person, something
that I've always struggled with, is like the need for
self-definition and the need forvery clearly defining who I am
(01:04:28):
and what I do, and I think thathas come up in all sorts of
things.
I think, you know, in a weirdway, there was a part of me that
was like scared to kind of tobecome to have this art project
that gained followers online andall that kind of stuff, because
I was like no, but I as anartist, I'm a musical theater
(01:04:49):
writer, even though growing up,I performed, I played piano, I
was a visual artist, I, you know, did all sorts of different
arts.
But then I felt for some reason, like after college going into
and maybe it was just because Iwent into debt to become a
(01:05:10):
musical theater writer that Ifelt like I had to, I had to
call myself that.
But there was this moment,especially during the pandemic,
when we couldn't make livetheater, that I was like oh, I
need to define myself less by.
I need to define myself less bythe one thing I do and instead
(01:05:31):
define myself by how I seemyself in the world and what I
see, more than what I do.
Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
You mean, like what you see in the world and how you
see it.
Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
Yes, like my point of view is more how I define
myself than the way I expressthat point of view Fire,
questions about camp.
That goes back to the questionsabout um, empathy and goes back
to all of those things that Irealized that the ways I define
(01:06:10):
myself as a musical theaterwriter are actually the ways I
define myself as a person, notjust an artist, um, and and you
know, and part of thatself-definition is also
constantly trying to figure outor not trying to figure out, but
, like it took me a long time.
(01:06:31):
I use they and them pronouns.
I consider myself agender,realized that in 2017, to the
moment, that I first askedpeople to use they and them
pronouns, it was like five yearsbecause, to me, I was like I
have to know exactly what thismeans and exact, I have to know
(01:06:53):
all of the specifics of what itis and who, so that when people
have questions, I can answerthem and I can feel confident
about what I'm doing.
And and I think that that waslike actually really detrimental
because, again, like,everything is a process and
everything is part of a whole um, and I'm like not disappointed
(01:07:20):
in myself that I didn't allowthat, but like I felt like I had
to work through and know how todefine it.
That and that was that justwound up not being the case, and
so I think this like weirdincessant need for
(01:07:40):
self-definition comes out in mywriting too, in that I think you
know from your the lovelyintroduction that you read from
my website that said it's aboutthe search for identity that
what I've realized, andespecially realized with this
most recent, with this newproject, is that I write about
(01:08:02):
people who are looking for theway to define themselves, that
it's not just like what's myidentity, it's who am I in the
world outside of, how otherpeople perceive me, and that
these, the women who grew out ofbeing witch accusers in
(01:08:25):
everyone else's eyes, that's whothey are and how, how, and
that's how they are seen and howdo the how, can they find a way
to see themselves?
That's different from that.
You know.
Even Anita Bryant, you know, isabout defining herself.
She knows that she's going tobe great.
(01:08:45):
What is the definition ofgreatness?
For her Pregnancy Pact is aboutthese girls who need something.
You know not to be a namedropper, but we were working on
it in a writer's group and wehad a guest one night when we
brought in material and it wasJanine Tesori and we shared the
song.
One night, when we brought inmaterial and it was Janine
(01:09:05):
Tesori and we shared the song,and she was like you know what,
her daughter was a teenager atthis point and she was like the
thing that gets me walking mydaughter grow up is that
literally the way the worldworks now everything is possible
and that sounds like such awonderful thing and it sounds
like such a great, everything'swide open, but the flip side of
(01:09:30):
that is that can be reallyoverwhelming.
Yes and so.
And so this show became aboutthese the need of these girls to
define themselves in a way that, like the world wasn't their
oyster and to go back to pearls,I guess, uh, but like the there
(01:09:52):
were.
There were too many things thatthey could be and they needed
to just make a decision becausethe world was scary, otherwise,
um and.
And the decision that they madewas we are going to be a family
and so it's just.
It was interesting, this likecrazy aha moment when I had the
realization that everything I'veever written has been about how
(01:10:17):
do I define myself apart fromhow the world defines me, or how
do I, how do I I'm making thehand motion of pulling things
apart?
How do I, how do I separatethose two things?
And how do I know who I am,even if it's different from what
(01:10:39):
other people think I am?
Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Yes, it's such a relevant experience today in the
world that we live in because Ifeel like there's.
There's so much multiplicity ofwho we are as humans in the
world, like I'm doing a podcastwith you right now.
So right now I'm in the roleand there's a.
(01:11:02):
There's a type of drama therapy.
That's like role theory and itgoes into all these like
different roles we play in ourlives.
But like, right now I'm in therole of podcast host.
But like I don't inhabit podcasthost in every part of my life.
I don't leave this and go.
Okay, cats, now I'm going toask you a question about what
you want for dinner, and howdoes that influence?
(01:11:24):
Right, right, right, but likesomeone, but.
Or like I work like, when youask somebody, what do you?
Who are you?
They often start with here's howI get paid in the world.
I am paid as a accountant, I ampaid as a lawyer, I am paid as
a therapist and therefore I'm atherapist accountant.
(01:11:45):
I am paid as a lawyer, I am apaid as a therapist and
therefore I'm a therapist.
And so, like, we get so stuckin the rigidity of like, what
role has value?
And so therefore, you, the, theperceiver, seem to have value
in this, and so I will sharethis with you.
And then, like you're saying,with your characters, they were
the accusers for a part of theirlife and then they were all
(01:12:07):
these other things in theirlives, but we still know them as
the accusers in the world thatwe live in today.
It's like now.
There's like social mediainfluencers who are like I'm
going to make content with mydog, or like whatever, and they
become that, and they always saylike that and they always say,
like, if you're an influencer,find your niche.
They said that about when Iresearched podcasts what's your
niche like?
(01:12:27):
What's your podcast about?
I'm like, uh, literallyeverything right, humanity, a
sense of self, like navigatingthe world, relationship, like
how do we do all of this stuff?
But we do do it.
How do we express ourselves?
Like all of it.
But I think what happens ispeople get I know I'm rambling,
(01:12:50):
but they get truncated into I ama musical theater writer, I am
an artist, I am a therapist andyou start to believe it yourself
.
Like when I went down the dramatherapy path, I was like I
started saying, well, I'm anactor, I'm a singer and I'm
trying the drama therapy out asmy next chapter.
(01:13:12):
But the longer I was on thejourney, the more I was like I'm
a therapist and you forget like, oh, I was also, I am not was.
I am also a performer, I amalso and.
Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
And then you get pigeonholed in your boxes yeah,
yeah, well, and you and there'slike a certain I find at least
that like if you aren't, if youaren't certain, if there's not
certitude about what you'redoing, then you aren't really
(01:13:45):
that thing.
That like if I don't say I'm amusical theater writer, then am
I really one.
Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
If I don't, if I don't, I I don't know other
examples, but like yeahstrodinger's cat like does the
cat exist in the box if we can'tsee the cat?
Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
yeah, yeah, well, and I, and I think you know not
that social media is 100 evil.
There are things that are goodabout it and you can use it for
many different things, but thereis a certain element of like,
uh, uh, like, just like thegeneral branding of life, more
(01:14:25):
than there is defining of life,that, like, everything is about
a brand, and I find that, as awriter too, like what's your
brand?
And I'm like I'm not, I'm notan advertising executive, I'm
not, that's not it, it's.
It's hard, it's a hard thing tonavigate and to figure out and,
(01:14:46):
yeah, and I think it, I thinkthat it goes back to, like the
ideas of empathy and grace, yes,and that, like it's not.
Things are ever evolving andnothing is nothing.
(01:15:07):
Nothing exists in the extreme.
Some things get very close tothe extreme, don't get me wrong.
What present as if they want tobe the extreme, even if they're
not, um, but like real humanityexists in.
In the what's the word, not thein the in between in the
(01:15:32):
ambiguity.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:15:34):
Yeah, that's where life is.
Life is in the ambiguity.
But we keep creating all theselike rigid structures to try to
like, cling on, to Cause, maybelike, like the like the girls in
the pregnancy pack, cause it'stoo overwhelming, there's much
so might as well, and I thinkyou know, I think that not to go
back to talking shit about them.
Speaker 2 (01:15:55):
Sorry to swear.
I don't know if this is aswearing podcast you can swear
all you want great, um, not totalk shit about superhero movies
, but I feel like the reasonpeople love superhero movies is
because of, like, the certainamount of moral certitude that
comes in them and that there isa world in which things are good
and evil and and I mean, I'm alittle talking out of I don't
(01:16:23):
know, I'm a little speaking outof of I don't know, I'm a little
speaking out of turn because Ihaven't seen them but there is
like that's.
What draws us to those kinds ofstories is certitude, and maybe
that's why I don't likesuperhero movies, cause I don't
like certitude.
Speaker 1 (01:16:42):
Yeah, it's, it's the ambiguity, cause that's where
the humanity is.
The humanity is in themultiplicity, it's in the
ambiguity, but when these rigidstructures come in, it's like,
oh, I am this.
I think, yeah, you're right,social media is not all bad, but
it certainly does funnel.
(01:17:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:17:11):
Well, and it like it also forces us to only share
good things and all of thatstuff, right, and it forces like
it forces.
You know, back in the days ofoh gosh, what was it called?
The like, was it Zanga Zinga?
Speaker 1 (01:17:25):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
Zanga, the like journaling, yes, like the other
live app.
Yeah, it's a live journal.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, but likewe've moved so far away from
that.
But even that was a performance, Like you know.
Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:17:42):
Well, Tumblr was a performance Everything.
Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
Everything is.
You know.
Yeah, well, tumblr was aperformance.
Everything, everything is welland you can, you can detect,
like, who's really like turningit on and who's who's just
trying to be like, well, this is.
I guess I'll just talk aboutthis thing like you can feel it.
You can feel it energetically,yeah, but like I mean, I've had
these conversations with my owntherapist, of like, when I'm
like, well, I'm making contentfor social media now and she's
like which you are they getting?
Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
and I'm like oh but like, but like.
What's masking, what's that?
You know exactly.
Speaker 1 (01:18:22):
Gordon, thank you so much for coming in and chatting
with me about all the all thethings that you do and how you
navigate all of it.
Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
Thanks for letting me I feel like I just expounded.
So thanks, thanks for giving me, for giving me a platform to
further define myself, tofurther define myself as a
podcast guest.
Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
If folks are interested in hearing your work,
seeing your work or learningmore about you, where can they
find you?
Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
You can find information on my website which,
speaking of camp and anencapsulation of my identity, is
omfgordoncom.
I always love that.
That's the best place.
Speaker 1 (01:19:10):
I love remembering that that is your website, like,
yeah, that tracks.
Speaker 2 (01:19:15):
Somebody else had gordonlearycom, so we went for
that instead.
There's some guitar teacher, Idon't know.
Speaker 1 (01:19:21):
Okay, okay, thanks, gordon, thanks Thank you, thank
you, thank you.
The Thank you.
(00:58):
Hello everybody, welcome to theIdentity Podcast.
Today I am joined by GordonLeary.
Gordon is a Brooklyn-basedmusical theater writer,
(01:20):
originally from Chagrin Falls,ohio.
Originally from Chagrin Falls,ohio.
They write human scale musicals, maybe some plays that
investigate, question andexplore ideas of empathy,
community, the search foridentity, joy, grief, the power
of legacy and growing up.
They tell stories drawn equallyfrom real life and the
(01:41):
mythologies of American popularculture.
Gordon Treasurer'scollaboration, inquiry and the
theatrical imagination.
Hi Gordon.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Hello, hello.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I'm so glad you're here.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
It's so funny to hear you read my bio that I, like
you know, took my time trying tofigure out like the smallest
way, the short, smallest numberof words in which to let someone
land on my website.
So I appreciate hearing it backseveral years later.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I love it.
I think that I mean that justspeaks so much to like what you
do.
Good, that skill amazes mebeyond belief because my brain
just processes so many things Idon't know how.
Like like, teach me Jedi, teachme.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
It's my least favorite thing.
Biographies and synopses arethe things that, just like you,
want me to distill.
I generate, I don't distill.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Exactly yes, thank you.
Well, after reading thatprofessional website bio, how
does that define you?
Are there things that are leftout from what you've said
because you did have to distill?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I don't think there are things that are left out.
I would say that the craziestpart of it is I'm always trying
to figure out tone and like thedifference between sounding
professional and sounding likemyself.
And it's something that you knowevery time I apply for a grant,
every time I fill out anapplication form, there's always
(03:27):
the push and pull of, like I ama writer, so my voice is, like,
really important, and how do Imake sure I'm communicating not
just the information but also,like the essence of who I am and
what I do?
And so I think, you know, Iused to have a very like here
(03:49):
are credits, here are, you know,here are the organizations with
which I've worked, with whomI've worked, with which I've
worked.
See, I can't be formal, Meneither, and so I feel like that
bio was an attempt to be alittle more in my voice.
I think, yeah, so I'm sureit'll get an edit sometime soon.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Noted, because we are constantly evolving creatures,
exactly exactly.
Yeah.
So I feel like so much ofidentity is voice and through
the like the media you create.
I mean, can we talk a littlebit about, like, how do you
(04:37):
channel your voice?
Like, is this a conscious partof your process when you're
writing, a conscious part ofyour process when?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
you're writing, I feel like I always.
It's an important part of mywriting to make sure that I am
writing things that are thatsound like they're being spoken,
yeah, and so I, you know, Ihave lots of ellipses and lots
(05:06):
of like, just like I'm doing now, like starting to say something
and then rephrasing and blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, and so I
think I think those kinds oflike very human things are.
I think the humanity of voice,of a voice is is what gets me,
(05:29):
and there are people for whowhose voice is very formal and
who speak with precision and allof those things.
And so, you know, there arerare instances when those people
appear in my work, but it isappear in my work, but it is
(05:55):
something that interests me islike, how do people actually
speak?
And I actually think, as alyricist, it clever or being, or
like being a show-off with,like, the play of language.
There are times when itcertainly lands, but I also
think that I always try to makesure that the things that I'm
(06:18):
writing and the characters thatI'm writing sound like real
people yeah and then the.
the joy and magic of musicaltheater is that I then give that
to my collaborator and they canmake it sound like more than
just a person, or they can makeit sound like an even more
specific person, or they canlocate that person in a specific
world, or something like that.
(06:39):
So oh, cool.
Yeah, that's.
I don't know if that answersyour question.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, I think so because I just think it's so
fascinating.
So your creative process, soyou are a lyricist and you work
with someone who is a composer.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
How does that?
Because I think most peopledon't.
I mean, I don't know how manyfolks know about that whole
process.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I've been in the world of musical theater, and I
don't think I understand howthat process really goes.
I think it's different for eachcollaboration.
I think you know my primarycollaborator, julia Meinwald.
We are both like there.
Well, first of all, we are bothvery private writers and we
don't the idea of, like, goinginto a room and writing
(07:25):
something together terrifies usboth.
Um, and, and we also have verydifferent processes where I am
like a, let me think about thisfor three weeks and write a few
lines and then come back andrewrite it and all that stuff.
And julia has this magicalability to like, say, from 1, 30
(07:46):
to 4 30, on this day I'm goingto write the music for this song
, and that just like mystifiesme.
I mean, I'm, I'm in awe of that, um, because it's so the
opposite of me, like, like.
Usually I just have to say,okay, this night I'm staying up
and I won't let myself sleepuntil I finish something because
(08:10):
I've been thinking about it forthree, three weeks, sometimes
three years, yeah, uh.
And so our writing process islike, I mean, we of course talk
and agree on what things aregoing to be, primarily when
we're first exploring.
Sometimes I will just be likeoh, I had this weird idea, and
here's the lyric, um, butprimarily it's I generate a full
(08:33):
lyric and send it to her, shesets it and then there's back
and forth from there um.
So our process is likediscussion based, but not not um
, we don't generate togethernecessarily, whereas I've had
other collaborations where thatis the case, where, um, you know
(08:55):
, sometimes we'll be talkingabout a moment and the composer
will say I have this musicalidea that I write lyrics to an
existing melody and things likethat.
So you know, there isn't a hardand fast rule, and I think
there are certainly people whodo it any number of other ways
(09:17):
too.
It's just about finding whatfeels organic and feels like I
don't want to say safe, becausethat's not the right word, but
feels like the best way for youto be creative.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, how do you end upfinding, like, because it's such
an organic process, how do youdecide like, oh, this is what
we're, this is the directionwe're going, this is the topic I
really want to dive into, like,this is what we're, this is the
direction we're going.
This is the topic I really wantto dive into.
Like, how do you organicallyfind, like, the story that you
want to tell?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
It is almost always like finding a story that
mystifies me or shocks me or,like you know, we my like grant
answer is I always look forstories that pose questions that
I don't know the answer to, orpeople that do things that that
(10:14):
I would never do, and I use mywriting to to find those answers
, and not even answers, becauseI don't think that, as a
storyteller, I don't think it'smy goal to provide answers to
people.
It's my goal to like, makepeople think and maybe guide
them towards what I think, butthey don't have to necessarily
(10:35):
agree.
I think I always like a musicalthat ends on a question um?
Rather than a like here's I, Iwould.
I would not be a good Asok.
Let's say I'm not here formorals.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
No.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
I'm here for explorations, yes, and so I, you
know, I think most of the timeI have an idea and will email
Julia and be like is this crazy?
And she's like, no, that'sgreat.
I think you know, a lot of themare pulled from kind of, as my
(11:18):
bio said, like pop culture,mythology, so things that are
like little random articles youhear about, or things that are
on it like six 28 at the localnews, like little human interest
stories that are strange.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah.
And those are things thatreally interest me, and just
things that, like, resonate withwhat I want to know about the
world, which is, you know, howpeople, how and why people are
people yes, it's interestingbecause we have different, like
(11:54):
we came from similar backgrounds, but we have different avenues
at which we've explored thatsame conundrum, but we're it's
the same query, that we're bothkind of like navigating just in
such different ways.
Yeah, absolutely, so absolutelyyeah, um, so, like you've
written, I love that you choosethese, these that, like you're
(12:17):
pulled to like the humaninterest stories, like, and
you're honestly you have been apillar to me of like holding the
reverence of pop culture.
Yes, you do it in multifacetedways, whether it's through
writing or art.
Like, can you talk about, like,what that journey has been for
(12:40):
you?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, been for you.
Yeah, I think.
Um, I think I've always beeninterested in, like, ideas of
celebrity and fame and infamy.
Yeah, um, and I think part ofthat is being a proud elder
millennial.
(13:00):
Um, I think that ideas of fameshifted with that generally,
with the advent of the internetand social media and all of that
.
Do you consider yourself Gen Xfully or you're an elder?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
millennial too.
I'm like that in between.
I think that like it'sinteresting to me too because,
like I like when, when I've beenin relationships and I'm
partnered with someone who'swithin the same age bracket but
they're like a little bit olderthan me, they identify as Gen X
and it's like literally months,yeah.
(13:41):
But I more gravitate towardslike millennial culture because,
like I was still like going toshows or like interested in
whatever was being created, thatlike I think at a certain point
maybe some people are like I'mgonna put my focus towards these
other things, but I've alwayswanted to like like whatever's
(14:04):
being created.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I'm like yes, yes, yes, yes yes, yeah, yeah, well,
but I also think that there'slike, there is a uh, there's
like a shift from cynicismtowards like just kind of
searching for a pure joy.
Yes, and I think that that ispart of my part of what draws me
(14:27):
to pop culture is finding thejoy in it all.
And finding I mean, you know, Ihave this.
You referenced drawings I havethis long standing art project
that is, portraits of primarilyReal Housewives, although I've
branched out into other thingsbecause there's a limited number
(14:51):
of Real Housewives moments thatI can.
After four years, I've gottenthrough most of them, I should
say but I think there's like a Idon't want to say reverence,
but like there's like a I don'twant to say reverence, but like
there's like a respect for themas humans that I enjoy.
(15:11):
And there's like it's possibleto both wink at something and
love it yes, and it's possibleto be laughing along with
(15:49):
something, with respect of those, both of those almost polar
opposites, yeah, or bridgingbetween those two things is
feels like a being part of alittle bridge to micro
generation.
Um, uh, but yeah, and when itcomes to musicals, I feel like
the stories that I want to tell,when I start telling people
about what I'm writing, peopleare always like, oh, that's
hilarious, assuming that I'm totell.
When I start telling peopleabout what I'm writing, people
are always like, oh, that'shilarious, assuming that I'm
going to make fun of whatever itis.
Yeah, the first musical thatJulia and I wrote together is
(16:11):
called Pregnancy Pact.
We started it in 2009, whichwas the year, or I forget if the
actual thing happened in 2008or 2009, but it was.
You know, there's this storythat appeared in Time Magazine
about Gloucester, massachusetts,and this rash of pregnancies at
their school, and the principalsaid blamed it on the girls
(16:34):
making the pact to get pregnanttogether.
You know, two months later,reporting came out that it was
no, it was actually because theschool changed their policy to
give students free pregnancytests but not free condoms, and
so like it was a policy thingthat led to that and they were
(16:55):
in a school where it felt likethey didn't have options and you
know, or they were in a timeand in a place where it felt
like they were.
Many of them felt like theydidn't have options.
There was no pact or anythinglike that, but that like took
hold of the imagination andthere were lifetime movies about
it and there were, you know,summer beach reads about it.
And when I read that article Iwas like this is fascinating.
(17:16):
What, what in the world wouldmake people do this?
And so then when I started tosay I want to write a musical
about this, people would wouldbe like, oh, that's so funny.
And I'd be like, but it's notfunny.
It may be funny to someone else, but that's not what interests
me.
And I think that that goesalong with even the funny things
(17:37):
that I write.
I don't think are like funnyfor the reasons people assume
they will be funny.
Yeah, yeah, I don't like tomake fun of people.
I don't like to.
I'm not interested in heroesand villains and things like
that.
Now I feel like I've gottenaway from pop culture.
(18:01):
But yeah, it's all like.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
But it's all connected.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, yeah, you can see, you know, kenya Moore
twirling on the Real Housewivesof Atlanta saying she's gone
with the wind fabulous.
I'm like, yes, it's silly, butthere's also something wonderful
about it and it's likebeautiful the colors that she's
wearing against the background.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And so, you know, drawing it is is funny, but it
also it doesn't have to bemaking fun of people yeah, I
feel like, whether you'rewriting a musical or you're
creating a piece of art, what,what I hear and what you say is
like finding the humanity inwhatever the subject is, is what
(18:49):
keeps you away from likemockery keeps you, keeps you, it
keeps you connected to likewhat the felt experience is, the
human experience of it.
And I feel like whether someonethinks that content would be
like hilarious if the the moreyou stay grounded in that
humanity.
(19:09):
That's how, like I know in ourprevious conversations we've
talked, we've talked about likecamp and and like camp done well
, is, is, is a story that hasthe humanity in it and like.
Maybe we'll have moments oflike humor, but there's a real
felt sense of like.
(19:30):
I feel with this character, orI see this piece of art and I'm
like oh, oh, I remember that,but also I felt that Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
It's like this balance of irreverence and
reverence.
Yeah, how do you hold both ofthose at the same time?
Yeah, yeah, as a musicaltheater writer not to go all
Rodney Dangerfield, but likethere is a certain.
(20:04):
There's a certain.
There's a certain like I don'tknow sheen over musical theater
that people make assumptionsabout what it is and what it
isn't.
Yes, and so I think that thatin and of itself is like a
reason that people assume thingsare silly because they think
musicals are silly.
(20:27):
You know, this is a little sidecomment, but I feel like writing
musicals is one of the onlythings that people can look at
you and say, oh, I hate thething that you made, and feel
like that's fine.
I've had so many like goodfriends of mine.
Be like, well, musicals arestupid, but I.
Or be like, well, musicals arestupid, like, but I or be like,
(20:48):
well, I don't like musicals, andI'm like, but that's literally
what I'm devoting my life toJesus.
Yeah, wow.
So I think there's there's likea little, there's like a little
dismissiveness about musicals.
Yeah, there's like a littledismissiveness about musicals,
(21:09):
yeah um, but so that's separatefrom camp, I guess.
Well, I mean, or maybe, is itnot?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
maybe not because I feel like okay, so I I want okay
.
So here's a wondering I have doyou think that, like disdain
for musical theater stems fromlike assumption based on like
classical musical theater, whereit's like the you know the very
predictable tropes that Ihonestly think it stems from
(21:36):
people being forced to go seetheir friends and use in their
high school musicals.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I mean, yeah, they're like they're.
You know, maybe, maybe seven toeight percent of high school
musicals are good and well done,but like that's part of how
people learn yeah, you know,gotta start somewhere, you know.
Oklahoma is a phenomenal,incredible musical.
Yes, anything by by Rodgers andHammerstein, they like invented
(22:04):
the form, they did.
Anything by Rodgers andHammerstein, they like invented
the form.
Anything by you know, the PajamaGame is a wonderful musical and
silly and fun, and all that, ashow ahead of its time yeah, I
love the Pajama Game, but like,but when you see that with, when
you see it done in in certainsetting, in a certain whatever,
(22:30):
and you get the sense thatthat's what it is, then people
are primed to think that that'sall.
Musicals are Fair and I havestarted to turn that around to
be like well, if people can saythat they think musicals are
stupid to my face, then I haveno problem saying I think that
Marvel movies are stupid topeople's faces even when they're
(22:53):
wearing a you know'm.
Like you think it's silly thatpeople think out of nowhere, but
I think it's silly that peopletake superheroes seriously when
(23:13):
they're silly too, Like I don'tknow it's all I mean all of it
could be misconstrued as sillywithout that context to the
humanity in it.
Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah yeah.
So let's come back to the camppiece.
Yes, I totally did, Because Iasked that question, because I
got like curious about it.
And it's not me dissing onclassical musical theater just
to say because, like you know,West Side Story is still one of
my all-time favorite shows I'veever been in.
I've ever seen oh, absolutelywho?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
did you play?
I've ever been in, I've everseen, oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Who did you play?
I'm embarrassed.
You don't have to say.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Did you play Maria?
Yes, it's okay.
We all have those moments.
We all have those times.
We shouldn't have done them.
It was a different time.
It was a different time.
We wouldn't do them now.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
No, we would not.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Which is also funny, because you'd be a great
Graziella.
Ugh Oobly-oo.
Or is that Gra whatever theother one is.
I forget Graziella and Velma.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, it's been a minute since.
I've seen it.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Velma, is it Velma?
Speaker 1 (24:21):
No In the Sharks.
Yeah, in the Jets In the Sharks, yeah, in the.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Jets In, the Jets In the.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Jets, the Jets.
I don't know because I wasn'tin the Jets world.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
But back to camp.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
But back to camp.
I mean that's camp.
I mean, true, casting a whitegirl is camp Truth, but high
schoolers don't know what campis and therefore they see it and
the high schoolers who areperforming it don't understand
that it's camp.
And so maybe that's why peopledon't make musicals.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
I wonder the misunderstanding of what camp is
.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Well, that gets to the question of whether camp is
always intentional or not, whichI don't know the answer to.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Okay, here's a question as we start talking
about this topic what is thecampiest show you've ever seen?
That was done perfectly.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Not perfectly, but really great.
Uh, no, but really great.
The.
The best use of camp to me isalways charles bush.
Um, the one that I saw multipletimes was um the divine sister,
which was the send-up of nonemovies, uh, but everything by
charles bush is likedefinitionally.
(25:43):
Everything by the B-52s isdefinitionally camp.
You know everything by um, ohgosh, and I think there's a
difference between camp andcomedy.
I think camp is there's like anarchness and a queerness to it,
always Um, but I think thatthat is like.
(26:03):
Charles Bush is my and theB-52s are my gold standard for
what camp is.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
So what about you?
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I mean, if I'm just narrowing it down to musical
theater, I'm going to go back toone of the shows that I
remember talking to you aboutmany years ago Debbie Does
Dallas.
I think that was the first showthat I saw where I was actively
(26:43):
aware, like, okay, we areplaying with so many different,
but there's there's heart in it.
There's like I felt connected,like I felt connected to the
characters in a way that I wouldin a comedy or a drama of any
other format, and I had neverhad that experience.
(27:05):
So I'm just talking abouttheater, I'd say.
Debbie does dallas, however, Imean my number one movie that I
love of all time is the campiestpiece of stuff that has ever
existed.
It's a parody of the pirates ofpenzance, but it was done in, I
think, 1982 or 1983.
It's called the pirate movieand they take who is it?
(27:26):
Christopher, christopher atkinsand christy mcnichol.
Okay, I feel like I have.
I might afford you to watch itat some point.
Okay, it's on youtube.
You can watch the whole moviefor free wonderful they take
some of the actual gilbert andsullivan uh music, rewrite the
lyrics so like during I am thevery model of a modern major,
(27:50):
major, general it's like man I'molder than the Beatles, but I'm
younger than the Rolling Stones.
He's older than the Beatles,but he's younger than the
Rolling Stones.
It's ridiculous.
So there's that part of it.
But then there's also becauseof the time frame.
They wrote their own 80s synthpop wonderful and it's all done
(28:13):
as a dream sequence amazingbecause we love a dream sequence
.
We love a dream sequence, butlike so, yeah, uh, like there's
like real, like like when theymeet on a beach, which I visited
in Australia because I love themovie so much, I went to all
the places they filmed it.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
That's incredible.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
But when they meet on the beach there's this like
super imposed, you know, likethose pictures from was it Olin
Mills in like the 80s where theyhad the head in the background
and then the person's in thefront like ah, um, yeah, that's
how the like meeting is on thebeach, where they're like
singing to each other, but thenthere's this like super imposed
floating head of them singing,oh god incredible, it's
(28:58):
incredible and that was myintroduction to camp was when I
was like a baby, baby, like.
That movie had been out for afew years by the time I saw it
and I fell in love with it.
I watched it, like I want tosay every day.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Incredible that it's that I feel like my introduction
was probably Big Business, oh,which I feel like qualifies.
Yeah, lily Tomlin and BetteMidler.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
But All right.
So can we talk about speakingof like finding material in camp
and all these things?
Can we talk about the musicalthat you wrote about Anita
Bryant?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yes, rap, rest in Pie .
Rest in Pie, bryant.
Yes, rap, rest in pie.
That wasn't my joke.
I think it was Coco Peru's joke.
Okay, I can't claim credit forit, but it was too perfect, okay
, yes, she just passed away afew weeks ago at 84.
(30:04):
She would have turned 85 inMarch okay, was this one of
those experiences where you sawa story and said, oh, I got to
write about that um, it was, andI feel like it's pretty
emblematic in that it was like Isaw a moment, which is the
moment that Anita Bryant got apie thrown in her face and was
(30:28):
like that's the kernel of anidea, and then found the story
around that and I think thatthat's, you know, pulling from
pop culture Higgins throwing thepie in her face, posing as a
(30:49):
journalist, throwing a pie inher face, and then she and her
husband, you know, she says atleast it's a fruit pie, which is
hilarious.
And then she remembers that sheshould start to cry and she and
her husband pray for him and allthis stuff start to cry and she
and her husband pray for himand all this stuff.
And it just felt like, you know, I wanted to know what brought
(31:11):
him there and what brought herthere, and they were, and so,
yeah, and so the story grew outof that.
I think at first I didn't eventhink that he was going to be
that big a part of it.
I thought maybe he would belike a, you know, always lurking
with a pie in the background.
I thought it would be muchsillier than it was, than it
wound up being um, that wouldhave been a very different show.
(31:32):
Yes, yes but what it wound upbeing was, um, you know, kind of
somewhat controversiallyhumanizing Anita.
I think for me there's a fineline between empathy and
sympathy and this is a showthat's big on empathy and not
(31:55):
big on sympathy.
So this show wound up being kindof like dual protagonist story,
and it's weird to say that theprotagonist of the musical is
Anita Bryant, who is a generallyand deservedly reviled person
(32:20):
among my various communities, myvarious communities, um, and
whose legacy comes back up allthe time save our children, save
our children in, you know, thecurrent discussion about
grooming and all thosehorrifying things, um, but there
(32:44):
is a part of me that's likewell, she was a person at one
point before she was acaricature, and how did she get
there?
And how did you know cause shewas semi-famous, she had a
million lives, she you know,reading about her, she was this
person, the kind of person whowas like I am born for something
(33:05):
great.
She was like you know she I'mgoing to mess up the story
because it's been a while sinceI read her biography but you
know, she was born andpronounced dead at birth and
then her grandmother, like,brought her back to life.
I didn't know that, oh yeah, soI'm paraphrasing.
I don't remember the exactstory, but something where she
(33:28):
was like I was saved by God forsomething great, and so the
story is about her trying tofind what that greatness is and
she, you know, starts.
We first meet her when sheloses Miss America, and then we
see her be like a middling popstar, and then we see her be
like a middling pop star andthen a spokeswoman, like
(33:51):
spokeshome maker for OrangeJuice, which is probably where
she became most famous was asthe Orange Juice lady, and then
all these different things.
And then she started to shelike went on this crusade
(34:11):
against, uh, I mean it wasspecifically against teachers,
gay teachers.
In miami there was an ordinancethat she spoke up against, um,
that would allow for the firingof employee.
It was a non-discriminationordinance, um, and she spoke out
against it.
And then, kind of ordinance, um, and she spoke out against it
and then kind of took offnationally and had the whole
save our children campaign andeverything like that.
(34:32):
Yeah, um, and so it's a youknow, it's a, it's not a
traditional hero um, uh.
And then it that her story istold next to the story of a more
imagined story of Tom Higginswho we don't.
(34:52):
There isn't a ton to know abouthim.
So in our story he's Tommy andin many ways he's a surrogate
for me in that story talkingabout.
You know what it felt like togrow up, what it felt like to
grow up, what it felt like tocome out, what it felt like to
be disillusioned by people whoyou know what's looked up to and
(35:13):
all this stuff and so it.
You know in the end they meetin the pie, with a pie in the
face, with a pie and you know itstarts out the.
The first song is Tommy baking apie with his mom and she says
whenever life is bad, there'salways pie.
And that comes true in the end.
Genius, but it's.
(35:34):
You know it's like a silly.
It is also a silly show.
There are six actors who playall you know Anita and Tommy,
and then an ensemble of four whoplay all of the other
characters, including Tammy Fayeand Phil Donahue and Lawrence
Welk and Kathy Lee Gifford, whowas as a child or as a young
(35:56):
woman, was Anita Bryant'sbabysitter when she was
Catherine Epstein, right aftershe was born again.
Yeah, wow, I mean, and it'slike one of those there.
There's so much pop culture init and so much like, so many
little reference points that arethat were so much fun for me
(36:20):
too.
And Marianne Mobley is theperson she lost Miss America to,
who went on to become anotherlike, like minor celebrity, who
was like the kind of person whowas on Love Boat and things like
that and was, you know, was on70s game shows and et cetera, et
cetera, who was married to, Iwant to say, gary Cooper, like
(36:41):
it.
Just, you know, there's allthat fun classic pop culture and
when we did our production ofit.
They our amazing, incrediblecostume.
Well, the set design was we dida production at Diverginary
Theater in San Francisco or SanDiego, sorry which is the third
oldest LGBT theater company inthe country wonderfully, lgbt
(37:02):
theater company in the country,wonderfully.
They're an incredible littletheater who does big and they do
big, big things.
And our set design was made tolook it almost looked like the
match game set, yes, or likelaughing slash match game.
(37:22):
So there are like windows thatpeople could pop out of um, and
the costumes for all of the likecelebrities were almost like
paper doll cutouts, so peoplewere had like a neutral costume
and for the people in tommy'slife and and like anita's sister
and things like that, they woreregular clothing but like, when
(37:44):
the actress came out as askathy lee she was in, she had
like paper sculpted hair and aflat dress in front of her that
she danced with um, and so, youknow, there's that like archness
about it and that sensibilityabout it that is.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
That is camp in its way yeah there's, that was long,
sorry, that's okay, likethere's so many pieces, I like
took a couple notes because Iwas like I want to come back to
that.
I want to come back to that.
I I think this whole process oflike the unlikely hero in the
story I'm hearing like so muchabout, like when you say the
(38:28):
difference between empathy andsympathy and I talk to people a
lot about that in the work thatI do because, like Brene Brown,
I don't know if you've ever seenBrene Brown's video about the
difference between empathy andsympathy- I have not no, oh,
it's a great one.
It's on YouTube.
It's like a little cartoon andsomeone has animated it and I
don't know the illustrator, so Ifeel bad for for bringing it up
(38:48):
without naming the illustrator.
Um, but the the whole conceptof the video is like saying
empathy is feeling with theother and sympathy is trying,
essentially trying to divertsomeone's attention away from.
So, like empathy is, oh, thisis terrible, tell me about it.
(39:10):
Can I sit with you in this?
Sympathy is, oh, sorry, thatsucks, you want sandwich?
Like right, like that'ssympathy.
And I think when you're tellingthe story about, like when
you're choosing to write thisstory and you're like, okay, I'm
gonna make this show about thisperson that has made efforts
(39:31):
that are not necessarily full ofempathy, but I'm choosing to
write a story about empathy andI'm going to tell both
characters stories, it's I hear,and what you're saying is like
I will infuse humanity into bothcharacters, because that is the
bridge between myself and Iknow.
(39:53):
You said like tommy's characteris like the voice that might be
your voice in the story, right,but it also sounds like you're
infusing the humanity intoanita's character as well, so
that it it's like the'reinfusing the humanity into
Anita's character as well, sothat it's like the bridge
builder between the differences.
Does that I mean?
Does that I don't know like?
What are your thoughts of that?
(40:15):
It feels very poignant to me aswe speak about this today, in
2025.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I think I think that itgoes back to this whole idea
that I don't.
I don't necessarily fullyinvest in the idea of heroes and
villains.
Yeah, I don't, I don't investin ideas of, because the second
(40:44):
you have a hero and a villain,someone is another and someone
loses their humanity on bothsides.
I mean, you know, because thenheroes have to become infallible
and can't be human and villainsare deprived of their humanity.
And, yes, there are people whodo terrible things, um, and
(41:04):
there are people who are doingterrible things right now, but I
think the only way I think notthe only way, because I don't
know how to solve the worldproblems but I think that the
approach that resonates with meis to think about the human side
of it, because I think the onlyway you can connect with people
(41:26):
is through humanity.
So the only way I can talk topeople who I have political
disagreements with is byrecognizing that they're a
person and not what's the Gen Z?
Not an op to show my one and ahalf generations to remove from,
(41:52):
from the lingo, um, but and Ithink that I think that a lot,
of, a lot of the things that Iwrite about are like that.
That you know.
It's not about letting peopleoff the hook.
It's not about making excusesfor people, because seeing
(42:14):
someone as human isn't making anexcuse for them.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
It is saying this is the place where it's the the
only possible way that we canmeet is by is by having empathy
for one another, and the onlyway that I can tell you that
you're wrong is by talking toyou as a human and not as you
know, I think it's the oppositeof Twitter basically, or X, I
(42:43):
don't like calling it X.
Twitter basically, or X, Idon't like calling it X but the
opposite of social media is, youknow, is that is empathy.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Yeah, it takes the humanity out of it and to me it
just screams like all the morereason, like all the more
importance for art, because artis like, the creation of art is
finding that that connectivity,not only from character to
character, but from charactersto audience, it's like.
(43:16):
So this kind of like thenstarts to lean us towards the
idea of perception.
Um, but just, it just feels soI don't know, it just feels so
important right now.
I don't know what I have to sayabout that.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Yeah, well, and I think I think that I think that
people, I think that right nowis a it's a hard time.
It's a hard time to thinkdeeply because there's so much
to think about and there's somuch coming at us at all times,
and so it's hard to like.
Let me sit for an afternoon andthink about this one idea,
(43:55):
because then you get a pushnotification on your phone that,
oh, there have been two planecrashes, it's just nonstop
bombardment, um, and that'sreally overwhelming.
But yeah, yeah, the it's, and Ithink that's been going on for
(44:22):
eight years now, nine years now,that in one way or another,
there's like this overarchingsense of dread that's hard to
push through.
Well, this is the sad part ofthe conversation.
But I think that it's easy toget caught up in the dread when
(44:47):
it's not, when it's about forcesrather than people
conversations.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
We've talked a little bit about that, but we were
talking about it in through thelens of creation, like creating
art.
Um, there's my individualexperience, and then there's
also what the collectiveexperience of this piece of art
really will be.
Um, we can tie it to being anartist in the world that we live
in now, or or we can tie tojust the general experience.
Your choice.
(45:27):
How do you navigate individualidentity versus like collective
experience identity, like?
How do we maneuver through thatwhen you're creating a piece of
art?
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Well, I think in musical theater there's very
little room for individualidentity, because it is an
entirely collaborative form.
Theater in general iscollaborative, but I think that
musical theater is made by acommunity.
So, while I may have the germof the idea, the you know silly
(46:06):
metaphor, but, like I may be, bethe grain of sand, but the
pearl is made by everyone.
Um so like, uh, yeah, I mean, Ithink there's so many layers of
community in musical theaterthat, you know, I write a lyric,
but then my lyric is foreverchanged by the way that the
(46:27):
composer sets it, which isforever changed by the voice of
the person who sings it, bothpractically and just
interpretively.
You know, there's no, I am, I amnot a performer like that.
And so I, you know, I am not aperformer like that.
And so I, you know, I needsomeone else to do those things.
(46:48):
And then, you know, and thenworking with a director and a
creative team will always bringout new things about it.
And and bring, you know, Ithink, even if it just starts
with my point of view, my pointof view, the point of view of
(47:09):
the piece will always come backto me, but it will always be
shaped by other people.
You know, talking about theproduction of the Loneliest Girl
in the World, the Anita Bryantshow, like I had no idea how it
would be designed and that isnot how I would have thought
(47:31):
that it would be designed, butit made, it gave so much.
It gave it, built upon theideas of the show, so much to
have paper doll costumes and agame show set.
And so you know, there are allof those layers.
(47:51):
And then the last layer is Iwrite for audiences.
I don't write well, I mean, Ialways have to answer.
I always hate the question whois your audience?
Because I'm like my audience ispeople, uh, but I, I wouldn't
get anywhere if I only wrote formyself.
So, like, the last thing isalways, the audience is the
(48:16):
final collaborator, um, in, infiguring out what, what art is,
yeah, and I think that that.
So I think in.
I mean, I don't think there isany kind of art that isn't, by
(48:36):
in in its nature, a collectiveexperience.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
That's fair, because once you, I mean go ahead, go
ahead.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Yeah, like like once something goes into a museum,
the curator is deciding where itgoes, how it's Not always even
how it's displayed, but whatit's next to what story it's
telling.
Within a room, within a gallery, yeah, and the people walking
by are experiencing it the waythat they're experiencing it,
(49:05):
and so so you know, a paintingis a painting, but the way that
people see the painting is justas much about the painting, is
just as much the definition ofthe painting as what the artist
put onto the canvas yeah, I,it's like that concept of like
you create something but onceyou give it to the world, it
takes on a new.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
So this, this concept of transformation, like how big
is the transformation is?
Is it a partial transformation,is it a full transformation?
But we don't ever reallyactually know if it's the
audience experience or, like youknow, perceiver of the art,
because we don't have all oftheir like background of
(49:46):
experiences in which they seethrough the lenses of.
But if it's theater, I thinkit's just so much about, like,
the reaction to like do peoplesay whoa after a show?
Or yeah, tell other peopleabout it.
I saw the show, I'd like you togo see it too.
It was important.
Um, yeah, I feel like once itthat that type of response is
(50:09):
often the like.
That's the transform,transformation where it's no
longer it's like, you know,whenever we do a show and the
and the director's like this isyour show, now it's like, uh, I
remember being like a youngtheater kid, being like I don't
even know what that means.
I'm just gonna do what you toldme to do and I'll do it.
But then later, like afterdoing of making that show, and
(50:31):
I'm like, oh my gosh, that mustbe.
Has there ever been a time thatyou've created a show and said
(50:51):
wow, I did not expect that to bethe response, but it's changed
it completely.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
Um gosh, I don't, I'm not sure.
I'm not sure how to answer that.
I mean, there's certainly, youknow, that's the power of doing
a reading and doing a workshopand things like that is
(51:19):
understanding, understanding howrhythms work and understanding
what is resonating with people,and I think there are.
I mean, I do think that you'realways looking for how people
(51:40):
respond.
I've been very lucky to be ableto have been writing a lot.
A lot of what I've written hasbeen in writers groups, so
there's like constantly gettingfeedback from other writers and
directors and things, um, and sothere's that level.
There's like then, when youfinally present a full thing,
there's that level of responseand feedback.
(52:00):
And there are, um, you know, alot of.
I think.
A lot of what I look for isconfirmation in the things that
land and then finding the ways,finding because you can tell
(52:21):
from the get-go if something isconfusing, from the get-go if
something is confusing.
And, yeah, there have certainlybeen times that I've presented
things and people have been veryconfused by them, and that's
fine and that's useful.
But it doesn't feel good in themoment, but it's useful, that's
(52:44):
fair.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Yeah, can we talk a little bit about the show that
you're working on now?
Speaker 2 (52:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
I love it.
I love it and I want the worldto know about it.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
Oh, thank you.
Well, so it's called theseFamiliar Spirits and it is about
a reunion of some of the Salemwitch trial accusers who come
back to Salem Village 23 or soyears after the end of the
(53:20):
trials and the witch hysteriaand everything that was going on
then, so in 1716, as they comeback to attend the funeral of
one of their fellow accusers andwe follow four women who are
now in their 30s and 40s who arekind of revisiting this moment
(53:44):
for the first time.
Three of the four of themhaven't returned there since
they left after the trials.
They've all gone on to havefamilies and have homes and all
of these things, but they'vebeen kind of haunted by those
events and what they did andwhat was done to them and all
sorts of things.
And at the same time, and whatthey did and what was done to
them and all sorts of things,and at the same time, while
(54:06):
those four survivors of it cometogether, there are also a
handful of ghosts of people whohave passed away in those
intervening years who are thereas well, kind of guiding the
living people towards aresolution that then comes when
(54:28):
the magic happens that theworlds collide and they face
what they've done and, um, yeah,I mean our, our stupid elevator
pitch of it is this is thecrucible meets the big chill.
Um, but you know it's not thecrucible, because the crucible,
(54:50):
the crucible is a wonderful play, but the crucible has very
little to do with history.
Um, and so you know it's, it'ssome of the names that you would
recognize from the crucible, ifyou know the crucible.
Uh, but the people are very,very different.
Um, and yeah, it came out of.
(55:10):
We started writing it or I guessI had the idea, much like all
things.
I was like, hmm, I wonder ifanyone knows what happened to
mercy lewis and I've alwaysloved mercy lewis because her,
the stage direction thatintroduces her in the Crucible,
(55:31):
is something like she's like afat and sly girl of 17 or
something like that Fat and sly,or plump and sly, something
like that.
And I've always just been likewho is the person who is
describing this poor Like?
That is how she's rememberedforever and you know, and there
(55:53):
are other pieces of art thathave, there are TV shows that
have used her and other things,but I've always been like
whatever happened to her, alwaysbeen like whatever happened to
her.
And so I started researching itand and found out the stories
of all sorts of the accusers.
(56:13):
And when I found out that AnnPutnam Jr, who was one of the
main accusers, her parents, thePutnams Thomas and Anne Sr, were
like In some tellings of thestory, were like the people who
(56:36):
pushed it forward to gain morepower in the town and all sorts
of things.
So when I found out that shedied when she was 36, it felt
like that was an opportunity tobring them all together.
And they all you know, theylived in Gloucester or Woburn or
you know places that were notfar from Salem Salem Village,
(56:57):
which is different from SalemNow, danvers.
Danvers, massachusetts, is nowthe town that at one point had
the witch trials.
But, yeah, and it just is likea so yeah, sorry, we started it
in, we started thinking about itin like late 2020, early 2021,
(57:23):
as, like, how do we a storyabout reckoning with harms that
you have caused and harms thathave been done to you, and how
in the world do you move throughthat?
And, like you know, thesepeople did something terrible,
(57:47):
um, whether or not they werepuppets of other people to do
these things.
They are the names that areremembered.
Abigail williams is the namethat is remembered as, like this
traitorous woman who wasactually an 11-year-old girl who
did not have an affair withJohn Proctor, who was 60.
(58:07):
Thanks, arthur Miller.
But also, like you know, thestory is that she, they were
like doing stupid littlefortune-telling things to find
out about their future husbandsas 11 year olds, as a 9 and 11
year old, and as we do itsleepovers at that age exactly
(58:31):
and abigail, in the fortunetelling they were doing, saw a
coffin and was freaked out by itand that's like the thing that
started.
It was like like a very regularlittle occurrence that led to
all of this.
You know historical upheaval.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
Which feels well, let's just say wow.
Speaker 2 (58:59):
Yeah, yeah, well, and it's.
You know, it's also about likegoing back and looking at the
crucible.
When I think about that play,when I think about stories, the
girls are always the thingthat's the most interesting to
me and they're like literallybarely in it, my adorable little
nieces I shouldn't call themlittle nieces because they're
(59:19):
freshmen in high school orthey're in the ninth grade.
Their high school did aproduction of the crucible this
year and I went, got to go seeit and they played two of the
accusers and they are likeliterally barely in it.
Abigail does more as, but likeabigail's presented as some tart
(59:41):
, like yeah, uh, and, and so itwas shocking to me that they
were given such little voice.
And again, like anita bryant,they're these people who did
something that we understand tobe terrible, but they're human
beings and they got to thatplace somehow and got away from
(01:00:06):
that place somehow.
And what is that story?
And that's kind of the heart ofwhat we're writing.
Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
I love it.
I was privileged enough to hearAct One, at least at that point
in time.
I'm sure it's changed by thispoint, but it's so incredibly
cool.
Are you like?
Is there a theater?
That's like commissioning thisto be move into a production, or
where are you in the journey ofthis?
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
It was commissioned by Flint Repertory Theater in
Flint, michigan.
They produced the worldpremiere of our show, the
Magnificent Seven.
They produced the worldpremiere of our show the
Magnificent Seven about the 96Olympic women's gymnastics team
US women's gymnastics team.
And so we've done one reading.
(01:00:56):
I think I haven't looked at ourcontract in a while.
I think we, like we'll haveanother reading and then they
have the first right of refusalto produce it.
But there's no guarantee thatthey'll produce it.
But um, but we love them, we,you know, we've kind of found a
sweet spot with lovely, daring,um, smaller regional theaters
(01:01:17):
who uh have is really, I mean, Ithink they're smart artistic
directors because they'reprogramming our work, but like
artistic directors who do thingsand and artistic and like
create uh, artistic leadershipthat does not only our work but
(01:01:39):
work by friends and work bypeople we respect, that like
would be considered challenging.
Um, yeah, uh, that aredifferent from doing, you know,
a wonderful production of noisesoff, which has its own merits
it does, but there's less, lessrisk taking and allowing new
(01:02:01):
like.
I think it's a big risk to allow, especially for like arts
organizations today, um, who areworried about bottom lines but
then they're not willing toallow new voices into those
spaces yeah, it's a freaky timeto be to be making theater, um,
(01:02:23):
but you know, theater has alwaysbeen made and always will be
made, and amen, it may just, itmay just be a paradigm shift
yeah, but I'm so excited aboutthis show and and whenever the
next reiteration comes around, Idon't see it yes, I'm, I'm
(01:02:45):
excited.
We've been recording madlyrecording demos, because we had
we had a reading in november inmichigan that was very brief and
so we didn't get a full senseof the score, um, because it was
just too much to ask of actors.
They did wonderful, wonderfulwork and, um, now we are
(01:03:06):
bringing it back and instead ofasking, you know, seven actors
to learn 40 songs, we've asked abunch of friends to learn a
handful of songs each to record,um, and so, yeah, so we're we
should be mixing those thismonth, I hope, which will be
nice to hear.
Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Nice.
So, gordon, we've talked abouta lot of different themes
throughout this conversation.
Whether it's through yourdrawing, your art that you've
made or the pieces of theaterthat you've created, a lot of
those themes explore thehumanity and the humanity of the
characters, their voice, theiridentities.
(01:03:48):
Can you talk a little bit moreabout, like, how does
self-definition of identity playinto those, uh, that process?
Um, whether it's throughcommunity, whether it's through
your creative art itself, themedium, can you talk more about
that?
Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
Yeah, I think that something as a person, something
that I've always struggled with, is like the need for
self-definition and the need forvery clearly defining who I am
(01:04:28):
and what I do, and I think thathas come up in all sorts of
things.
I think, you know, in a weirdway, there was a part of me that
was like scared to kind of tobecome to have this art project
that gained followers online andall that kind of stuff, because
I was like no, but I as anartist, I'm a musical theater
(01:04:49):
writer, even though growing up,I performed, I played piano, I
was a visual artist, I, you know, did all sorts of different
arts.
But then I felt for some reason, like after college going into
and maybe it was just because Iwent into debt to become a
(01:05:10):
musical theater writer that Ifelt like I had to, I had to
call myself that.
But there was this moment,especially during the pandemic,
when we couldn't make livetheater, that I was like oh, I
need to define myself less by.
I need to define myself less bythe one thing I do and instead
(01:05:31):
define myself by how I seemyself in the world and what I
see, more than what I do.
Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
You mean, like what you see in the world and how you
see it.
Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
Yes, like my point of view is more how I define
myself than the way I expressthat point of view Fire,
questions about camp.
That goes back to the questionsabout um, empathy and goes back
to all of those things that Irealized that the ways I define
(01:06:10):
myself as a musical theaterwriter are actually the ways I
define myself as a person, notjust an artist, um, and and you
know, and part of thatself-definition is also
constantly trying to figure outor not trying to figure out, but
, like it took me a long time.
(01:06:31):
I use they and them pronouns.
I consider myself agender,realized that in 2017, to the
moment, that I first askedpeople to use they and them
pronouns, it was like five yearsbecause, to me, I was like I
have to know exactly what thismeans and exact, I have to know
(01:06:53):
all of the specifics of what itis and who, so that when people
have questions, I can answerthem and I can feel confident
about what I'm doing.
And and I think that that waslike actually really detrimental
because, again, like,everything is a process and
everything is part of a whole um, and I'm like not disappointed
(01:07:20):
in myself that I didn't allowthat, but like I felt like I had
to work through and know how todefine it.
That and that was that justwound up not being the case, and
so I think this like weirdincessant need for
(01:07:40):
self-definition comes out in mywriting too, in that I think you
know from your the lovelyintroduction that you read from
my website that said it's aboutthe search for identity that
what I've realized, andespecially realized with this
most recent, with this newproject, is that I write about
(01:08:02):
people who are looking for theway to define themselves, that
it's not just like what's myidentity, it's who am I in the
world outside of, how otherpeople perceive me, and that
these, the women who grew out ofbeing witch accusers in
(01:08:25):
everyone else's eyes, that's whothey are and how, how, and
that's how they are seen and howdo the how, can they find a way
to see themselves?
That's different from that.
You know.
Even Anita Bryant, you know, isabout defining herself.
She knows that she's going tobe great.
(01:08:45):
What is the definition ofgreatness?
For her Pregnancy Pact is aboutthese girls who need something.
You know not to be a namedropper, but we were working on
it in a writer's group and wehad a guest one night when we
brought in material and it wasJanine Tesori and we shared the
song.
One night, when we brought inmaterial and it was Janine
(01:09:05):
Tesori and we shared the song,and she was like you know what,
her daughter was a teenager atthis point and she was like the
thing that gets me walking mydaughter grow up is that
literally the way the worldworks now everything is possible
and that sounds like such awonderful thing and it sounds
like such a great, everything'swide open, but the flip side of
(01:09:30):
that is that can be reallyoverwhelming.
Yes and so.
And so this show became aboutthese the need of these girls to
define themselves in a way that, like the world wasn't their
oyster and to go back to pearls,I guess, uh, but like the there
(01:09:52):
were.
There were too many things thatthey could be and they needed
to just make a decision becausethe world was scary, otherwise,
um and.
And the decision that they madewas we are going to be a family
and so it's just.
It was interesting, this likecrazy aha moment when I had the
realization that everything I'veever written has been about how
(01:10:17):
do I define myself apart fromhow the world defines me, or how
do I, how do I I'm making thehand motion of pulling things
apart?
How do I, how do I separatethose two things?
And how do I know who I am,even if it's different from what
(01:10:39):
other people think I am?
Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Yes, it's such a relevant experience today in the
world that we live in because Ifeel like there's.
There's so much multiplicity ofwho we are as humans in the
world, like I'm doing a podcastwith you right now.
So right now I'm in the roleand there's a.
(01:11:02):
There's a type of drama therapy.
That's like role theory and itgoes into all these like
different roles we play in ourlives.
But like, right now I'm in therole of podcast host.
But like I don't inhabit podcasthost in every part of my life.
I don't leave this and go.
Okay, cats, now I'm going toask you a question about what
you want for dinner, and howdoes that influence?
(01:11:24):
Right, right, right, but likesomeone, but.
Or like I work like, when youask somebody, what do you?
Who are you?
They often start with here's howI get paid in the world.
I am paid as a accountant, I ampaid as a lawyer, I am paid as
a therapist and therefore I'm atherapist accountant.
(01:11:45):
I am paid as a lawyer, I am apaid as a therapist and
therefore I'm a therapist.
And so, like, we get so stuckin the rigidity of like, what
role has value?
And so therefore, you, the, theperceiver, seem to have value
in this, and so I will sharethis with you.
And then, like you're saying,with your characters, they were
the accusers for a part of theirlife and then they were all
(01:12:07):
these other things in theirlives, but we still know them as
the accusers in the world thatwe live in today.
It's like now.
There's like social mediainfluencers who are like I'm
going to make content with mydog, or like whatever, and they
become that, and they always saylike that and they always say,
like, if you're an influencer,find your niche.
They said that about when Iresearched podcasts what's your
niche like?
(01:12:27):
What's your podcast about?
I'm like, uh, literallyeverything right, humanity, a
sense of self, like navigatingthe world, relationship, like
how do we do all of this stuff?
But we do do it.
How do we express ourselves?
Like all of it.
But I think what happens ispeople get I know I'm rambling,
(01:12:50):
but they get truncated into I ama musical theater writer, I am
an artist, I am a therapist andyou start to believe it yourself
.
Like when I went down the dramatherapy path, I was like I
started saying, well, I'm anactor, I'm a singer and I'm
trying the drama therapy out asmy next chapter.
(01:13:12):
But the longer I was on thejourney, the more I was like I'm
a therapist and you forget like, oh, I was also, I am not was.
I am also a performer, I amalso and.
Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
And then you get pigeonholed in your boxes yeah,
yeah, well, and you and there'slike a certain I find at least
that like if you aren't, if youaren't certain, if there's not
certitude about what you'redoing, then you aren't really
(01:13:45):
that thing.
That like if I don't say I'm amusical theater writer, then am
I really one.
Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
If I don't, if I don't, I I don't know other
examples, but like yeahstrodinger's cat like does the
cat exist in the box if we can'tsee the cat?
Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
yeah, yeah, well, and I, and I think you know not
that social media is 100 evil.
There are things that are goodabout it and you can use it for
many different things, but thereis a certain element of like,
uh, uh, like, just like thegeneral branding of life, more
(01:14:25):
than there is defining of life,that, like, everything is about
a brand, and I find that, as awriter too, like what's your
brand?
And I'm like I'm not, I'm notan advertising executive, I'm
not, that's not it, it's.
It's hard, it's a hard thing tonavigate and to figure out and,
(01:14:46):
yeah, and I think it, I thinkthat it goes back to, like the
ideas of empathy and grace, yes,and that, like it's not.
Things are ever evolving andnothing is nothing.
(01:15:07):
Nothing exists in the extreme.
Some things get very close tothe extreme, don't get me wrong.
What present as if they want tobe the extreme, even if they're
not, um, but like real humanityexists in.
In the what's the word, not thein the in between in the
(01:15:32):
ambiguity.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:15:34):
Yeah, that's where life is.
Life is in the ambiguity.
But we keep creating all theselike rigid structures to try to
like, cling on, to Cause, maybelike, like the like the girls in
the pregnancy pack, cause it'stoo overwhelming, there's much
so might as well, and I thinkyou know, I think that not to go
back to talking shit about them.
Speaker 2 (01:15:55):
Sorry to swear.
I don't know if this is aswearing podcast you can swear
all you want great, um, not totalk shit about superhero movies
, but I feel like the reasonpeople love superhero movies is
because of, like, the certainamount of moral certitude that
comes in them and that there isa world in which things are good
and evil and and I mean, I'm alittle talking out of I don't
(01:16:23):
know, I'm a little speaking outof of I don't know, I'm a little
speaking out of turn because Ihaven't seen them but there is
like that's.
What draws us to those kinds ofstories is certitude, and maybe
that's why I don't likesuperhero movies, cause I don't
like certitude.
Speaker 1 (01:16:42):
Yeah, it's, it's the ambiguity, cause that's where
the humanity is.
The humanity is in themultiplicity, it's in the
ambiguity, but when these rigidstructures come in, it's like,
oh, I am this.
I think, yeah, you're right,social media is not all bad, but
it certainly does funnel.
(01:17:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:17:11):
Well, and it like it also forces us to only share
good things and all of thatstuff, right, and it forces like
it forces.
You know, back in the days ofoh gosh, what was it called?
The like, was it Zanga Zinga?
Speaker 1 (01:17:25):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
Zanga, the like journaling, yes, like the other
live app.
Yeah, it's a live journal.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, but likewe've moved so far away from
that.
But even that was a performance, Like you know.
Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:17:42):
Well, Tumblr was a performance Everything.
Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
Everything is.
You know.
Yeah, well, tumblr was aperformance.
Everything, everything is welland you can, you can detect,
like, who's really like turningit on and who's who's just
trying to be like, well, this is.
I guess I'll just talk aboutthis thing like you can feel it.
You can feel it energetically,yeah, but like I mean, I've had
these conversations with my owntherapist, of like, when I'm
like, well, I'm making contentfor social media now and she's
like which you are they getting?
Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
and I'm like oh but like, but like.
What's masking, what's that?
You know exactly.
Speaker 1 (01:18:22):
Gordon, thank you so much for coming in and chatting
with me about all the all thethings that you do and how you
navigate all of it.
Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
Thanks for letting me I feel like I just expounded.
So thanks, thanks for giving me, for giving me a platform to
further define myself, tofurther define myself as a
podcast guest.
Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
If folks are interested in hearing your work,
seeing your work or learningmore about you, where can they
find you?
Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
You can find information on my website which,
speaking of camp and anencapsulation of my identity, is
omfgordoncom.
I always love that.
That's the best place.
Speaker 1 (01:19:10):
I love remembering that that is your website, like,
yeah, that tracks.
Speaker 2 (01:19:15):
Somebody else had gordonlearycom, so we went for
that instead.
There's some guitar teacher, Idon't know.
Speaker 1 (01:19:21):
Okay, okay, thanks, gordon, thanks Thank you, thank
you, thank you.
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