Faith in Real Life Ep. 011 - Kevin Harney - From Atheism to Organic Discipleship - The Faith in Real Life Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, welcome to the Faith in Real Life podcast.
I'm your co-host, nat Crawford,and of course, I got my partner
in crime, dan Koch.
Good to be with you.
It's always good to be with you, and we are blessed today
because I have one of my longdistance mentors with us today,
kevin Harney.
And Kevin Harney is an author,he's a speaker and he is a

(00:22):
pastor with truly a passion forhelping churches thrive in
outreach and discipleship.
He's a lead pastor currently athis church in Monterey,
california Shoreline CommunityChurch, and, of course, the
founder of Organic OutreachInternational.
Kevin, you've also authoredseveral books and you told me
five.
I was unaware of the fifth butfor sure Organic Outreach,

(00:42):
people for families, forchurches, discipleship and now
prayer.
So I don't know how you havetime to pastor and teach when
you're doing all these otherthings, but that's a different
topic for a different day.
How are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:53):
brother, I'm doing well.
Hey, and the secret is sleepdeprivation.
That's the key.
No, I will tell you.
It's funny.
My sister, Gretchen, has alwaysoperated on four and a half
hours of sleep a night.
I operate on four and a half tofive pretty much my whole
ministry and I have two PhDs inmy church.
They're sleep specialists andthey told me.

(01:15):
They said you know what there'soutliers.
Some people need 10 or 11 hours, Some people need four or five
hours.
They walk me through all this.
Do you get tired during the day?
Do you get dozed off?
No, they walk me through allthis.
Do you get tired during the day?
Do you get dozed off?
No, I just when I was a kid, Iwas hyperactive and they spanked
me.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
And now I'm a pastor and they pay me.
So there you go, that's a goodtrade-off.
I definitely like the upgrade,that's for sure.
Well, to get started, I wouldlove for you actually to share
your testimony.
I've heard it in person, I'veread about it in your books, but
I think it's a really coolstory about how you came to
faith in Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, do you want the four-hour version or the
three-minute version?
I'll give you the short versionhere.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Well, you know, more views and longer watch time
helps us, so it's whatever youwant.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Well, I grew up in what I would call is a fairly
healthy.
I grew up in what I would callis a fairly healthy, loving
pagan home.
My parents loved each other.
I did their 50th renewal ofvows before my mom passed away.
I grew up in a home where therewas encouragement and love and
in many ways the kind of thingsyou'd want to see in a Christian
home.
But my parents were bothatheists and so I didn't have

(02:27):
any religious training.
I'd never seen or touched aBible.
I didn't go to church at all.
We had one baby son when I wasa young kid, but it was just.
We went a couple of times toSunday school but I didn't know
what any of that stuff was.
And then my sister Gretchen fivekids in my family growing up.
I was the middle of five and myolder sister, gretchen, had
become a Christian and shestarted to just really gently
she's very shy gently kind ofshare her faith and talk about

(02:48):
what Jesus meant to her and playher Christian music Benny
Hester, keith Green, sweetComfort Band, all these old
Christian rockers, larry Normanand she kind of played a little
too loud for her bedroom so I'dhear it and eventually she said
to me you want to come to mychurch?
And I said no, never.
And I was kind of mean with herand she kept inviting.

(03:08):
And finally she came to me.
She said I'm never going toinvite you again, but I got one
last thing.
Let me tell you what it isbefore you tell me no, it's okay
.
And she says at our churchwe're having a casino night
20-girl can-can dancing linewhich you wouldn't pull off
today, but this is over 40 yearsago.
And she said and they're goingto give you $100 of play money

(03:28):
when you get in.
You get to gamble all night.
And I tell people, for the firsttime, church sounded
interesting to me.
My dad taught me to play 21 asa young kid and so I went to
church for the first time.
And it was all that she said itwould be.
And when we were there, at theend of the night, this guy named
Dan Webster, he got up and hegave a message.
I still remember it was calledLife's a Gamble when You're

(03:50):
Putting your Chips, and hereally gave Pascal's wager.
I didn't know what that was atthe time, I didn't know
philosophy, but he basicallysaid if there isn't a God and
you follow him.
This is how it could changeyour life for the good.
But if there is a God and youfollow him, it's all wonderful
and so isn't it worth it.
I didn't realize thatdiscipleship was a call to
sacrifice.
He didn't talk about that, itwas just.
You know, it's better to followJesus.

(04:11):
And I didn't become a Christianthat night, but I won the most
play money, I got a big prizeand I went back because I met a
cute blonde girl and we starteddating and kept going to that
youth group.
And then that summer theyinvited us on a houseboat trip
where you go water skiing for aweek.
And it didn't compute to methat if you're on a houseboat

(04:32):
you're stuck in the middle ofthe water and you can't get away
.
And so we were out in the waterall week long, water skiing
during the day.
But every night and everymorning they do devotions.
They play their guitars andsing these.
I thought they were silly songs,but they just kept talking
about Jesus.
And what I found out was thestory that my sister, gretchen,
had told me about how God lovespeople and we're lost and
wandering like sheep and likeJesus came and he lived and died

(04:55):
and rose.
And if I believed in him andtook his hand and followed him,
I could become his person and itchanged my life.
That's the same story that theyouth pastor taught at the
church I went to and then onthis houseboat, the two leaders
in the houseboat were tellingthat same story about God's love
and our need and our sin andour wrong, but that Jesus came
to make all that right and if Iwould just take his hand and
follow him, it changed my life.
So my sister's telling me thisstory and this guy, dan, the

(05:17):
youth pastor, telling the story,and this guy, gary, on the
houseboat telling this story Atthe end of the week it was
hilarious because they go at thelast night they kind of shared
the gospel one more time.
They didn't know what it wascalled.
It was the story about Jesusand the guy says let's bow our
heads.
And as our heads are bowed, ifthere's anyone here today that
doesn't yet know Jesus, ifthere's anyone that may not know

(05:37):
Jesus, well, everyone knew,including me and the girl I was
dating who wasn't a Christianyet either.
They're the only two people onthe entire house but they
weren't Christians were me andher.
But they said there might besomeone today who might need
Jesus.
And he basically walks throughthe gospel one more time and he
said if you would take the handof Jesus and accept his
forgiveness, accept his love,and then hold his hand and

(05:58):
follow wherever he leads you, heloves you and he'd change your
life.
And at that moment I didn'thave all the answers.
I'd never held a Bible to that,I'd never read the Bible or
held a Bible, but I knew that ifthere was someone named Jesus
who had done what they said hehad done, and if he could love
me and change me and take mylife.
So I just prayed Jesus, I don'tknow if you're there, I don't

(06:19):
know if this is real, but if youare and if you love me, and if
you really died and rose, if youdid all this stuff, they said,
uh, and you want me, you canhave.
And and I'll tell you both.
At that moment the holy spiritof god entered me.
I was transformed by the graceof jesus.
That night my first prayer everwas to receive jesus.

(06:40):
I'd never prayed before.
My first prayer was to receivejesus.
My second prayer was that nightlaying on top of the houseboat.
The houseboat had a flat roofand all the boys were locked
outside on the roof and all thegirls were inside, locked inside
, because high school kids insmall, you know.
And I was laying there lookingat the stars and my second
prayer was okay, god, what do Ido now?

(07:00):
What do I do now?
And the Holy Spirit spoke.
I've never heard the HolySpirit with my ears, but in my
heart, like if you were tellingme, like words.
I could hear in my heart.
But he said spend the rest ofyour life telling people about
Jesus or you'll be miserable.
And I thought I don't want tobe miserable.
And so the next morning I askedthe youth leader.

(07:21):
I said how do I become a pastor?
And he said he says, dude,you've been a Christian for like
seven hours.
What are you talking about?
And I said I could spend therest of my life telling people
about Jesus or I'll be miserable.
So I, I need to become a pastor.
And he's like, well, get ahaircut.
I had hair like down to here.
I was at Huntington beach andhe says, get a haircut.
And I said seriously, he goes,no, I'm joking.

(07:41):
But he says you should get aBible and read.
He says I'll get you a Bible.
And he got me a Bible and hegave it to me and he said you
know, you're supposed to, you'resupposed to read this and this
is from God and you're supposedto do what it says.
That was, that was mydiscipleship training, and so so
here's my.
My short version.
I tell people is if they say,how did you get involved in the
church?
How did you hear the wholestory, I tell people I went for

(08:06):
the gambling and I stayed forthe girl and I found Jesus and
he's changed my life.
And that's really my story.
And that summer I read the Biblefor the first time.
It took me about two and a halfmonths and they gave me a
revised standard version,harper's Study Bible, with study
notes by Harold Linzel, andthey explained to me like they
said on the page.
They said, okay, now all themain words, the bigger words,

(08:28):
that's the Bible and there'sthat line underneath it, the
smaller print that's like notesabout where it happened and what
words mean and stuff like that.
So I read the whole Bible and Iread all the study notes and my
mom thought I was going crazybecause I put a graph on the
wall in my bedroom of all thekings, the northern and the
southern kingdoms of Israel, andall the prophets I was trying
to.
I thought, well, this is trueand I got to follow it.

(08:49):
So I just really got into itand I went back to the youth
leader about two and a halfthree months later and I said
okay, what do I read next?
He said, well, how far did youget?
I said, I read the whole thing.

(09:10):
And what do I do next?
What else you got?
And he goes, we just got onebook.
So just he said, just read itagain.
And I said and I've been doingthat ever since.
So that's my story.
And since then all five of thekids in my family of origin
became Christians.
Three of us went into ministry,my dad became a believer and
that I don't know if you knowthis part of our story, but

(09:30):
during COVID I got to go andvisit my dad on the East Coast
share the gospel one more time.
And when I finished sharing thegospel I went with not very
much faith, honestly.
I just thought I'd be faithfulto share one more time.
And I finished sharing thegospel and I said, dad, are you
ready to confess your sin, tofollow Jesus?
I'd shared the gospel so manytimes in so many spiritual
conversations but I thought hewas going to say no, because he
said no a thousand times.
So are you ready to followJesus?
And he said absolutely.
And I said you know what I did.

(09:51):
I went through the whole gospelagain.
I said let me explain.
I walked through it.
I said is that what you want todo?
And he said yes.
And my father became my brothera month before he passed away.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, that is good.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Yeah, I love that story and Dan are you going to
run Casino Night at your placeanytime soon?
I probably wouldn't even knowhow to put one on.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
I tell people I'm not recommending it, I'm just
telling my story.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
you know that's descriptive and not prescriptive
, right, we do need to know thedifference.
That's funny.
Well, obviously, kevin, godgrabbed your heart, transformed
you.
But you made a comment thereabout well, that was my
discipleship, and so you know,we've talked in the past about
your other books, whether it'sOrganic Outreach for Ordinary

(10:46):
People or for the churches orfor families, and all are great,
and I kind of thought OrganicOutreach was the definitive book
.
But then you came out withOrganic Outreach for, or Organic
Disciples.
So why did you write that book?
I mean, I thought you kind ofcovered all the bases, but
something needed to be said.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Well, I tell people I've never had a child.
I have three sons but I didn'tdeliver them.
I've never delivered a child.
But writing a book is kind oflike from the way my wife
describes it it's a lot of work,it's a lot of time, it's
painful, and so you don't writebooks just at a whim.
And so I felt like the organicoutreach work was done in terms
of writing and I could justspend time traveling and

(11:27):
globally and training leaders tochange the culture of their
church or their denomination.
I work with a lot ofdenominational leaders as well
and so I thought the same thing.
I thought we were done.
And then I had a group in NewZealand, a national group called
Living Stones, who reached outand said, listen, we want you to
come and do this conference forus and we want you to do a
whole conference on howdiscipleship and how evangelism

(11:49):
work together and how they'resupposed to partner.
And because I'd gone over thereprobably eight or 10 times and
trained them their nationalleaders on evangelism through
organic outreach.
But I always said, listen,discipleship is super important.
I think that evangelism anddiscipleship are bound together,
but evangelism is my thing.
There's already tons of peopledoing so much work in
discipleship, that is so amazingand wonderful, we don't need

(12:12):
another book on discipleship.
They said, well, no, we don'twant it just on discipleship, we
want to have discipleship andevangelism connect.
You know how they go together.
And so I said no again.
They came back again and mywife and I talked and prayed and
felt like God was putting onour hearts that we needed to do
that.
So we took about 10 months andstudied and prepared for that
conference.
They reached out just a year inadvance and so we just prepared

(12:32):
and really got into thescriptures and grappled with
what it looks like to see whatis discipleship that leads to
evangelism and evangelism leadsto discipleship.
What does that look like?
And so we went over there andwe spent four days just pouring
into these leaders and when wewere done they kind of mobbed us
and just said you have to writethis, you have to make this a
book, you have to make thisavailable to the church.

(12:53):
What you just shared with us isreally revolutionary.
This is going to change.
We get the evangelism aside,but now we see the connection
the way we didn't see it beforeand they're like you got to
write a book.
And I'm like, yeah, it's likethat's a lot of work and it's a
lot of time, and I've got a fullday job with pastoring a church
and I've got a full night jobwith organic outreach and so
anything on top of that is abonus.

(13:14):
But we said we'll pray about itand you're going to pray about
something when you actually doit.
You got to do it.
God calls you to do.
So we felt like God said dothis.
And we actually, when we wrotethe book, we developed more free
resources.
Our publishers we write withfour different publishers, but
Zondervan is our primarypublisher and they said we think
you created more free resourceswith that book and with those

(13:38):
materials than has ever beenpublished in the world by any
Christian or any publisher.
And they said you'll get givenall away for free.
And we're like, yeah, that'sbecause we were the church.
We know that churches don'thave extra money laying around.
We got to make it affordable.
And so, uh, and so we wegrappled with this, we taught on
it.
So the reason, the reason wedid it was there was a group
that reached out.
And then we felt like God saidtake this to that next step and

(14:00):
create all that you can and thengive it to the local church and
help church live this out in afresh new way.
And it was super fun and it wasabsolutely the right thing to do
.
But in the process you know,sometimes you know as leaders in
the church, sometimes you justgot to do what God calls you to
do and you don't know if it'sgoing to make impact or not.
You don't know how.
You know there's times I'llpreach or I'll teach and I feel

(14:23):
like I was faithful, but I don'talways know the fruit God's
bearing through that.
But you've got to be faithful.
So that's kind of why we did it.
And it was a labor of love thatSherry and I did together when
we did the book, when we did theaudio book.
For that we were in a studiofor four days but they had
Sherry and I do it togetherbecause we wrote the book
together and we had both ourvoices in there and so it's kind

(14:43):
of fun.
We actually did the whole audiobook as a team because it
really is her perspective.
And Sherry grew up five yearsold, became a Christian church
Sunday morning, sunday evening,wednesday night and she loved it
.
She had a secret dream as ajunior high kid to marry a
pastor someday, but she didn'ttell her friends because she
thought it was weird.
And so she grew up in all thischurch thing.
I grew up in this pagan thing,and God's kind of put us
together to combine ourperspectives, I guess.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
It's awesome.
Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
Yeah.
So I'm curious, kevin was therea particular moment or
experience in your life that youreflected on that kind of
helped you as you're pouringover the scriptures, reflecting
back on this mentor-discipleshiprelationship?
Maybe some of your story thatkind of helped you craft the
book and the outlines for that?

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, probably two thoughts.
That's a fantastic question.
Probably two thoughts.
One would be I became aChristian in a great church, but
the tone of discipleship atthat time was sort of rigid and
a lot of pressure involved.
That it was sort of like a okay, if you're a Christian now, you

(15:54):
read your Bible as much a dayand you journal and you pray
this amount of time and you helpout and you do these things,
and if you do these things andcheck these things off, you're a
good disciple.
There was no connection togrowing in Jesus, discipleship
like growing up in Jesus andgoing with Jesus on mission.
They weren't connected.
It was just like here's how yougrow in your faith and you do

(16:14):
these things, and then you needto have a person in your life
who is discipling you, and manyof those people tend to be very
controlling.
It was almost like they weregoing to make you a disciple of
them, more than the disciple ofJesus, which seemed kind of
strange to me.
It's like I'm.
I knew my, I know I'm messed up, I know my frailties, I'm going
better than anybody else doesyou know?
So I don't want to go makedisciples of Kevin Harney.

(16:34):
I want to see people becomedisciples of Jesus.
I can and I can say to them,you know, it's like so, and one
of the things was just this,that the climate of discipleship

(16:55):
I grew up in it was, it worked,it helped me grow, but and it
was sort of like and if youdon't do these things, then
you're not really beingdiscipled and if you don't do
them just this way, you're not adiscipler.
And I watched Jesus and we, youknow.
And the second big thing was Ispent a year with my senior
staff over children, youth,every ministry in our church,
some volunteers, some staff, butmy key leaders of every

(17:17):
ministry.
We spent a year studying thegospels and saying how did Jesus
live and what did he teach andwhat did he do.
That was meant to be a modelfor us, because if a disciple is
a follower of Jesus, thenyou've got to figure out what
Jesus is doing and where he'sgoing and how he's doing it, and
then you just try to do it likehe did.
And so on the one hand, it waslike this, more of a rigid
approach that didn't feel likeit was fully grasping the

(17:38):
biblical vision, and then theother piece was reading the
Gospels with this group of about14 people talking and praying
and grappling with what is itthat?
What does it look like tofollow Jesus?
And we wanted to be able to havesomething measurable,
personally to go.
If somebody said to you, hey,nat, are you growing as a
disciple, are you more adisciple now than you were a

(18:00):
year ago?
Most people are going to go, Iguess.
So what does that mean?
How do I know?
How do I know, how do I knowI'm growing up in faith, how do
I know I'm maturing in faith?
And so those are the twodrivers One, I think, a little
bit of a well-intentioned butnot real accurate approach and
not broad enough, excuse me.

(18:21):
And then the second thing wasjust a journey of studying with
a group of younger, you know,younger, older men, women
grappling with who was Jesus,what did he do and what does it
mean to follow him.
And we came up with these, theseven things and organic
disciples, the seven things thatfelt like the, the clear,
unquestionable markers ofspiritual growth.
And we kind of felt like wewere done that any Christian
group of Christians who did thesame thing we did.

(18:41):
We come up with the sameconclusion because that's what
Jesus did.
We want to deal universal andbiblical.

Speaker 3 (18:48):
Thank you.
Yeah, that's really good,that's really good.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
So how do you define organic discipleship?
I mean, we talk a lot aboutdiscipleship and I don't know if
people could even define that,but is there a difference
between just discipleship andorganic discipleship, and why do
you think that approach is soimportant for us as Christians?

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah.
So I would say when most peoplesay discipleship and it's an
important distinction mostpeople probably wouldn't know
how to really define it at all,which means we as pastors have
to teach our congregationalmembers what it means to be a
disciple.
But most people they coulddefine disciple.
What they mean is I'm growingas a disciple, I'm being
discipled, I'm disciplingsomeone.

(19:30):
It tends to have to do with meand Jesus and my personal
spiritual growth.
I'm learning the word, I prayand I'm giving, I'm going to
church, I'm growing up in faith,which I'm following Jesus more,
which is absolutely accurate.
I think part of discipleship isgrowing to be more and more
like Jesus, and so that's that'sthere.

(19:51):
I think it's accurate, it'sfair, it's helpful.
It's just not the whole picture.
And organic disciples andorganic discipleship and this is
something that I think, evenafter I finished the book after
sharing I finished the book it'sbecome more clear to me it's
this concept of it.
Organic discipleship is that is, discipleship that leads to
evangelism and evangelism thatleads to discipleship, and how

(20:13):
these things become wedgedtogether.
So the organic nature is that Ibelieve that every step we take
towards Jesus will take ustoward the world, because and
here's the language I've beenusing lately.
It's if you grow in Jesus, growto become like Jesus and you
grow in Jesus, that'sdiscipleship.
You will go with Jesus, that'sevangelism.
And I say that discipleship andevangelism are not enemies.

(20:37):
In some churches they're likerivals.
There's departments and they'refighting for money and fighting
for space and they're like well, we're doing our thing, we're
the evangelism ones.
They're not enemies, they'renot rivals.
And discipleship and evangelismare not just friends where they
, yeah, we get along, wecollaborate when we can and
we're friends.
But I say this evangelism anddiscipleship are marriage

(20:57):
partners and when God has joinedtogether, let no one tear apart
.
And we spend so much timepulling these things apart,
whereas in God's vision, ifyou're growing to be like Jesus
and the locked hands is thatpicture of you know discipleship
and evangelism together.
But also I use the picture ofif you become a Christian.
The idea is you take the hand ofJesus, you lock hands with
Jesus Like a toddler on a busystreet with a parent or a

(21:19):
grandparent.
Once you hold their hand,they're going to go where you go
.
They're not going to run intothe street.
So discipleship is taking thehand of Jesus.
So when you do that whathappens is you go wherever he
goes.
If you're holding his hand andif you don't let go of his hand,
you go where Jesus goes, andhe's always.
I mean, read the gospels he'salways going to the lost.
He's always going to theoutcast.
He's always going to theforgotten.
He came to seek and save thatwhich is lost.

(21:41):
He goes after lost sheep allthe time.
So here's the deal.
If that's where Jesus is goingand I'm holding the hand of
Jesus as his follower, guesswhere I'm going?
I'm going to the world.
I'm going out it's good news inpartnership with Jesus.
And Jesus said go, therefore,and make disciples of all
nations, and I'm with you always.
I'm there, I'm taking your hand.

(22:02):
You're not going to do yourmission.
You're going to do my mission.
You're holding my hand andyou're going with me.
And so discipleship, which ispart of the picture, is our
spiritual growth, is becominglike Jesus, and it tends to be
me and Jesus, jesus and me, onegenerational.
It's not me helping somebodyelse as much, or, you know, it's
not me growing as a disciple.
It's me becoming more likeJesus.
But when we grow in Jesus andwe become more like Jesus, we go

(22:24):
with him on his mission.
That's organic, that's adiscipleship journey that takes
you to the world with the gospel.
And now these things aren'tenemies or just friends.
They're marriage partners,they're locked together.
Does that kind of picture help,and does that make sense
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, that's really good, really helpful.
Yes.

Speaker 2 (22:42):
I always say I'd be a great fourth grade teacher
because I think in simplepictures I'm not very complex,
I'm like just make it make senseto me, so I know clear enough
so I can go do it, you know.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
Well, now we know who to hire when we need a
children's pastor.
So you are on deck, we'll bringyou go.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
Organic children.
That's funny.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
I like that.
So one of the things you writeabout is that discipleship
begins with that personaltransformation.
So what does it look like forsomeone to cultivate that
authentic, that growingrelationship with Jesus before
discipling others?
I think that's a major missingcomponent in today's Christian
walk.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, yeah, you know that was something that's a
great question.
That's one of the things thatwe really grappled with in this
year with our team together,talking, praying and studying.
This is what we realized wasthat there's some preambles,
some foundational things, but Ido believe we can take the hand
of somebody else and help themgrow spiritually much quicker
than we think we can.
Some people have been waiting40 or 50 years to get mature

(23:47):
enough to help somebody elsegrow in faith, and guess what,
if it took you 30 years, it tooktoo long.
You know, one of the thingsthat we realized as we were
walking through kind of what itlooks like to follow Jesus and
and how he modeled the life offaith, was that the fruit of the
Spirit is essential, that ourinterior love, joy, peace,

(24:07):
patience, all the things thateverybody wants Christians want,
but also non-believers.
What are they looking for?
Love, joy, peace, patience,self-control.
You know I'm going to lose 20pounds.
Everyone's looking for what Godoffers by His Spirit, in the
fruit of the Spirit, and so wehave to first look at ourselves
and say am I growing in thefruit of the spirit?
Am I becoming the person on theinside that shines the light on

(24:29):
the outside and that honors God.
And we all know, and especiallyas pastors, we know that when
you read the scriptures, thegospels particularly, there's a
whole groups of people who dideverything right religiously but
they were all wrong.
You know, from the scribes, thePharisees, to the, to the
zealots, to the uh, even the,the SSE.
The SSE is pulled away from theworld.
The zealots wanted to kill theRomans, the scribes and the

(24:52):
Pharisees Um, they, they tithe,and they knew the Bible better
than we do and they knew whereto pray and how to pray and do
it, pray in.
And they knew the Bible betterthan we do and they knew where
to pray and how to pray and doit pray in a way that everybody
goes whoa.
That's where they're amazingand everybody gets to pray.
You know they did all the rightstuff, but Jesus said you're
inside of you.
It's like dead bones of a tombinside of you.

(25:12):
So I tell people, don't becomethis amazing, don't say I'm
going to do all these spiritualdisciplines and I'm going to do
them all in such a way that I'mbetter than you and I can look
down on you and I can bearrogant about myself.
It's like you know we don'tneed more Pharisees.
We need genuine followers ofJesus.
So one of the things I tellpeople is search your heart and
say am I growing in love, in joy, in peace, kindness, gentleness

(25:35):
all of these things, those nineindicators of a transformed
heart.
We don't want to get masterspiritual disciplines and
markers of spiritual maturity sothat we then feel like we're
better than everyone.
We want to do it so we becomemore mature, and so I think that
the interior work of the Spiritand the fruit of the Spirit is
critical, as we're growing as adisciple and then taking the

(25:58):
hands of other people both wayspeople helping us and us helping
others grow in faith.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
That's awesome, that's great, yeah, really good.
I would love to hear you kindof flush that out a little bit
in the context of community,like as the arena for where we
practice the fruit of the Spirit.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:22):
Because that's tied to your view of discipleship as
well.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, so when you look at the life of Jesus, he
had multiple communities.
He had the crowds, he had the70.
He had the 12.
He had the three Peter, jamesand John.
He had Mary, martha and Lazaruswhere he was when he was in
Bethany, all these circles ofpeople, and so you know.
And community is one of theseven markers that we look at
that Jesus modeled.
And so the way my wife and Ihave defined this and Sherry and

(26:52):
I we walk through all thesethings together is that there's
really four generations.
If you're a disciple, bothgrowing in the fruit of the
Spirit and growing in the actsof living more and more like
Jesus and taking his hand andfollowing him, if you're doing
that, to do it alone is not thebiblical model we are made for

(27:16):
unity.
Adam did not fully reflect insome some way, fully reflect all
god wanted to reflect with eve.
Then together they reflectedthe image, the imago dei, the
image of god, that this visionof who god is is seen not just
in a man or a woman, but in howmen and women function together,
how people function together.
And so what we always say is uh, and this comes from second

(27:37):
timothy 2, 2, it also comes fromother passages in the Bible
that faith is generational,whether it's a family generation
or family of faith generation,or a believer walking with a
non-believer towards Jesus.
And what we describe is that wealways have to have there's
four generations of connectedrelationship as we grow as
disciples interior and outwardexpression.

(28:00):
And so we tell people imagineyourself this way You're
traveling through life, reachingup with one hand and taking the
hand of somebody who is helpingyou grow spiritually.
That person, whether you saythey're discipling you or
mentoring you, or you're anapprentice or they're just a
great godly person helping youin your faith the term doesn't
matter as much as do it.
Live it up.
Godly person helping you inyour faith the term doesn't

(28:21):
matter as much as do it you know, live it up.
And so you know.
And so for me, I have two peopleright now one guy named Paul
Cedar.
Paul was the president of theEvangelical Free Church for
years, great brother, and thenCarl Overbeak, who was a leader
in the Reformed Church, but twoamazing godly men.
That, carl, probably 18 yearsago, paul, probably 10 or 11
years ago, I asked will you pourinto my life?

(28:42):
Will you take my handspiritually?
Will you help me grow, will youinvest in me?
They both had a great answer.
They said I'll pray about itand they came back and said yes.
But if they just said no, I'dhave found somebody else.
But I I have to have at least acouple of people who are taking
me grow.
Carl, he does that through aseries of accountability

(29:02):
questions.
He asks me and areas he keepsme accountable.
Paul does it through.
I send him one or two questionsevery time we're going to meet
and just questions about life,ministry, family, and he just
pours wisdom into me.
But they both are taking a hand, helping me become more like
Jesus.
And you go.
Well, kevin, you're a grandpa,you have five grandkids.
You still need somebody helpingyou grow spiritually.

(29:22):
I'm like, oh man, and I'll tellyou anybody listening to this
right now, if you're a Christian, you don't have that, find it.
I've never had anybody come tome and offer to do that.
I've had to go and ask people.
I mean I think I'm a likableguy, I'm fun to be around.
You know I try, I'm, you know Iput in the work.
I've never had anybody come say, hey, can I pour into your life

(29:42):
spiritually, formally, likethat?
I've asked people to do it.
So you asked about community.
Right, I have a couple of men.
Now there's other men in mylife, other pastors that pour
into my life and there's peoplewho've gone before us, who I
read their books.
There got two people that stillhave a pulse, that love Jesus,
that pour into my life regularlyand then I steward my own

(30:03):
spiritual growth.
I have to look at my biblicalengagement, my passionate prayer
, my wholehearted worship.
Am I growing to be like Jesus?
So someone's helping me growspiritually.
I'm being discipled, I'mtending to my own spiritual
growth.
That's generation two.
I'm taking the hand of people,like my three sons, who all love
Jesus.
One's a pastor, one's in wealthmanagement and one is a

(30:25):
videographer but they love Jesus.
I'm helping them growspiritually.
I've got four different pastorsI invest in on a monthly basis
but I'm walking with spiritually.
And can I tell you what?
I grow as Paul and Carl take myhand.
But I also grow as I tend to myown soul and I grow as I help
other people grow.
So generation one for me youknow these two men.
Generation two I tend to my ownspiritual growth.

(30:45):
Generation three I'm helpingyounger leaders and younger men
grow in faith, and sometimes menolder than me chronologically,
but spiritually.
I'm helping them along.
And then here's the, here's thekey.
I'm helping those ones whosehand I'm taking.
I'm teaching them how to dothis with other people.
You have to duplicate thesailors.
That's where Paul is writing toTimothy and he says in 2 Timothy

(31:07):
, 2.2, my wife and I call thisthe 2.2.2 lifestyle.
He said you know, and he saysto Timothy the things you've
heard me say in the presence ofmany witnesses.
Paul says I'm generation one,I'm pouring into you.
I've shared things in thepresence of many witnesses.
You now, timothy, take hold ofthose things, you live them and
you find reliable people thatyou pour into, who will train
others also.

(31:27):
And here's the beauty it's notsupposed to start, it's not
supposed to stop there.
I can only be accountable forthose four generations.
But the people I'm passing iton to and I'm teaching to do
with others.
That's what's been happeningsince the disciples followed
Jesus.
That's what will happen untilJesus comes again, if the church
is going to be here andthriving.
It happens as we take someone'shand, let them spiritually
influence us.
As we tend to our own growth,we take the hand of someone else

(31:48):
and help them grow.
We teach them how to do thesame thing again and again, and
again until Jesus comes again.
So that's that communitypicture.
And can you imagine both of youthink about this as leaders in
the local church if every memberof your congregation was living
that way one or two peoplehelping them grow spiritually

(32:08):
with accountability andencouragement and joy and
friendship and spiritualleadership, and they were
tending to their own soul andthey knew what it meant to grow
in faith.
I've got to grow in God's Wordin these ways.
I've got to grow in prayer.
I've got to humbly serve others.
I've got to share my faith.
Naturally, this is theChristian life and they were
telling you that.
And then they were disciplingsomeone else, helping somebody
else grow and teaching them tomultiply that.
This is why this is what thisis God's design from the

(32:32):
beginning.
And if we live this out, won'tbe a church of 50 for very long
and you will not be a dullchurch.
You will be dynamic becausewe're in love with Jesus.
I get kind of excited.
This is God's vision.
This is what we're meant to do,right, I mean, and you know

(32:53):
what.
None of this is very creative,but it is revolutionary, I mean,
and nothing I'm saying.
I haven't come up with any ofthis stuff.
I just got involved with theBible.
This is just how we're supposedto do it.
But when people hear it, theygo.
That's amazing.
I'm like, well, yeah, that'show God designed us to function,
right.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
Absolutely right.
Wow, that's awesome.
Yeah, so much of what you talkabout, I think, in all your
books, but in OrganicDiscipleship is the idea of
spiritual growth, and youactually talk about seven
markers in your book.
Do you want to share justbriefly what those seven markers
are and then maybe we'll pickone and we'll unpack it?

Speaker 2 (33:34):
But I think it'd be helpful for people to dig into
that topic dig into that topicand, as I'll hit him pretty
quickly, but I'll also, I'll tiehim in every one of these
markers.
If you are growing in thismarker, it should not just cause
you to grow, it should driveyou to the world.
Because if you're taking thehand of Jesus and following him,
if you're growing, if you'regoing in, if so, the verse was
Bible engagement.
Okay, If you are growing in thescriptures with our little kids

(33:57):
in our church, we tell themthat they need to learn and love
and live the bible.
You know, learn it, love it,live it.
And so if children, youth,adults are learning, loving and
living out the bible, that willbecome evangelistic.
Because when you read the bible,you, you meet.
You meet abraham, who wasblessed to be a blessing to the
nations.
You meet jonah, who didn't wantto go to these horrible pagan
ninevites.

(34:17):
I mean one of those violent, uh, warlike people in the history
of the world.
He didn't want to go to them.
Horrible pagan Ninevites.
I mean one of those violent,warlike people in the history of
the world.
He didn't want to go to them.
But God said we're going to go.
And when God shows mercy onthem, he goes.
I knew it, god I knew you weregoing to.
He was like he was angry thatGod was so merciful.
But we learn about the mercy ofGod when we read the servant
songs in Isaiah.
We see this heart for the worldand this one who came to suffer

(34:37):
and to die.
When you walk through the Bibleand God's heart for the world
comes again.
Both his justice and his mercyare wrapped in all of the
scripture, and so Bibleengagement shouldn't just help
us get more Bible knowledge, itshould change our heart and send
us out into the world.
Second one patch the prayer.
Jesus prayed constantly.

(34:57):
He taught us to pray, and soprayer should be a part of our
spiritual journey and growth ona daily, moment by moment basis.
But also as we grow in prayer,as we follow Jesus, it takes us
out into the world.
I've prayed with thousands ofnon-believers, not in crowds,
that's different.
I've done things likeone-on-one thousands of

(35:19):
non-believers.
I've only had four times anon-believer has told me no or
no.
Thank you to praying.
When I'm at a restaurant,someone's serving me, when I'm
talking with somebody at anairport and they share a great
joy or great pain, I'll veryregularly say you know, that's
interesting, I don't know ifyou're believing the whole
prayer thing, but I actually doand I'd be honored if I could
take a minute and just say aprayer for that, for you.

(35:40):
Oh, you just became a grandpa.
Can I pray for you?
And you said granddaughter,granddaughter.
Can I pray for you and yourgranddaughter?
I've never had anybody say no.
You know, I'm like sure, greatand probably a third of the
people after I pray for them,men and women, they have tears

(36:01):
in their eyes.
He's here with us and so prayerisn't just me and Jesus, prayer
is me and Jesus for the world.
Jesus said pray, therefore, thatthe Lord of the harvest will
send workers out into theharvest field.
That's part of our prayer life.
So biblical engagement.
Jesus loved the word.
We love the word.
The word takes us to the world.
Passionate prayer.
Jesus prayed and taught us topray.
We pray.
Prayer leads us into the worldAll heart and worship.
Jesus invites worship.
When people bowed down to him,he didn't say Blasphemy, stop it

(36:24):
, I'm just a teacher.
He received worship.
He modeled this great journeyof worship.
So we become his worshipers andour worship is a witness to the
world the way that we worship.
Years ago, sally Morgenthalerwrote a book called Worship,
evangelism, but it was about how, when nonbelievers come into a
genuinely worship-filled context, they feel the presence of the
Spirit.

(36:44):
God is doing something, godbegins to move and so, and I
hope in both of your churches,when you meet together, there's
people there that have beeninvited, that don't yet know
Jesus, and in that context theycan hear the Word, they can see
community, they can watch peopleworship and go.
This is kind of weird but wow,my sister Allison, last five
kids in my family to become aChristian.
My sister Allison sang in achurch choir for two years

(37:06):
before she became a Christian.
She was searching and seekingand she told the choir leader.
She said I love music and everytime I sing these songs that my
brother and sisters keepsending me, I cry and I just
want to know more about Jesus.
But can I be in your choirbecause I love music?
And they said yes, and so thatwhen she prayed to receive Jesus
, I got to baptize her in thefountain in front of the church

(37:27):
church in Irvine, california,big church and the entire choir
came and circled the baptismalfountain and sang as my sister
was baptized and she was alreadyin community.
And it's beautiful, right, butworship was part of her journey
to Jesus.
And so wholehearted worship, andthen humble service.
No one served more than Jesus.

(37:48):
And so what do we do?
We're his followers, we serve,and when we serve, the world
sees the presence of Jesus.
If you want to becountercultural today, serve
someone who hates you, and Jesussaid that a long time ago, but
especially today.
Now we tend to hate people whojust slightly disagree with us
in our culture.
You serve people who hate you.
I mean that just shines a lightin the darkness right.

(38:08):
And then the fifth one is soBible engagement, passionate
prayer, wholehearted worship,humble service, and then joyful
generosity.
And we put joyful in therebecause it's not just giving,
it's giving with the right heart.
God loves a cheerful giver.
And our team debated isgenerosity?
Should that be one of thesemarkers that we were developing?
We didn't know how many therewere going to be when we were
working on it, but all throughthe Bible, the call to

(38:30):
generosity is so consistent.
And then Jesus' example ofgiving, even giving his own life
, is so consistent, and he callsus to lay down our lives and
follow him, to give everythingwe have.
It's financial, but it's ourlives, it's our time.
It's our gifting, it's all thatwe are.
And so Jesus gave, we give, andwhen we give, that speaks

(38:54):
volumes to a world that doesn'tunderstand that kind of a spirit
.
That opens the door for thegospel.
And then number six isconsistent community being
together.
And you think about it, jesus?
Of all the beings in theuniverse that didn't need
fellowship and community, jesuswould be at the top of the list,
perfect community, father, son,holy Spirit eternal.
But when he walked on thisearth, he loved community, he
loved being with people.

(39:14):
And so we go.
Okay, I'm supposed to take hishand and be like Jesus.
I got to love community.
And then the world watches us.
And the world, how will theyknow that we are his disciples?
How will they know we areChristians?
Well, there's a song about it.
They will know we areChristians by our love, by our
love, yes.
They'll know we are Christiansby the way we love each other.
Our community becomes a witnessto the world of what it looks

(39:35):
like to walk with other people.
And then, finally, organicoutreach, and that is Jesus came
with a mission statement toseek and save the lost.
We're called to shine the lightof Jesus, and when we do it
that changes the world.
With the gospel, people come toknow Jesus.
So those seven markers I don'tknow if that's more than you
wanted or not, but the long formis the thing these days and I
can talk a lot.
That's brief compared to in thebook Organic Disciples.

(39:58):
There's a section on each ofthose seven and each section has
three chapters.
How, on each of those seven,and each section has three
chapters.
How did Jesus do it?
How do we do it?
How does it change the world?

Speaker 3 (40:10):
So learn from Jesus, become like Jesus, go with Jesus
.
No, that's great.
I'm curious in your experience,when you're dealing with
disciples, is there a particularmarker where you've seen people
?

Speaker 2 (40:26):
struggle the most with embracing or growing in.
Yeah, yeah, you know what it'sfunny.
So when we came up with theseseven markers, we created an
online self-assessment tool thatwe use in our churches, now on
our website, and anyone can useit anywhere in the world for
free, if they can do it inEnglish or Spanish, and we're
working on some other languages.
But so what happened was wethen had about.
We had a good group of peopleprobably maybe a quarter of our

(40:49):
congregation did theself-assessment.
We had a setup where we'd onlyget their information if they
hit a certain button and theycould meet with a pastor
one-on-one and talk aboutdeveloping their own personal
pathway of spiritual growth.
But all of them, the data hitus, and so, within about a month
, I had our two weakest areas asa congregation.
And uh and so I went to ourcongregation.
I said I'm going to do a twoweek series.

(41:10):
I'm going to call it two areasthat we spiritually um, uh,
there's lots of we're not doinga good job, two areas that were
weak spiritually.
And uh and so, and and our caseit was it was was joyful
generosity and humble service.
We have a lot of people who arevery busy and they just don't
want to give that time to servein the church.

(41:30):
It doesn't have to be in thechurch or outside the church,
but they're serving Jesusactively in the world.
And then joyful generosity isalways a challenge, and so we
spent two weeks on that, butthat also helped us discover
what we need to lean into as acongregation.
So those are two.
But here's the thing that'sinteresting we have lots of
people every year that do thisself-assessment and they hit the

(41:51):
button that says I want to meetwith someone.
We meet with every individual.
We have a team of people, butmostly volunteers.
They meet one-on-one.
They're trained to help peoplethen say here's where I'm strong
, how do I build on that andcelebrate it?
Here's where I'm weak, how do Idesign my own spiritual growth
pathway, instead of sayinghere's the pathway we all follow

(42:11):
, it's no, we will design apathway for you because, guess
what, you're a unique person andwe will have people that Bible
engagements like that's, that's.
I just never really read theBible.
I always wanted to.
I mean to.
So we get up and for them to dogo deeper into the word, and
you have somebody else who saysboy, the organic outreach thing.
I'm terrified to share my faith.
I've never talked to anybodyabout my faith except for my
family, and even then it makesme nervous.
Okay, then let's help you growin that area.
So I've seen it across theboards, but the joyful

(42:32):
generosity in the Americanchurch seems to be a big one.
As I talk with pastors wherethey use this for their church
congregation and when theyassess their congregation.
That's a big one.
Consistent community.
People are getting busy andpulling away more, and so yeah,
but each person has their ownjourney and needs kind of a
pathway that suits where they'reat and what will take them

(42:52):
closer to Jesus.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
Yeah, I was really impressed that you and not
surprised based on who you are,your writings but you know that
emphasis on scripture engagement.
When I was at Back to the Bible, we had a research arm called
the Center for Bible Engagement,and we did a worldwide study of
over 500,000 people on everycontinent that asked the

(43:16):
question what difference doesscripture engagement make in the
lives of people?
Practically, and over thecourse of that study, we looked
at comparison of the Bibleversus even the Quran or Hindu
writings, and those did nothing.
But when a person engaged inScripture four more times per
week, it led to lifetransformation, and so it's so

(43:38):
important that we, as Christians, engage in Scripture.
But much of what you haveemphasized is not out of
obligation or compulsion, butrather out of that love for God
and to know him more, whichagain goes back to organic
outreach.
Love God, love people, and soif there's an area that I think
I would encourage all of ourlisteners and those watching is

(44:00):
don't settle here.
If you are struggling with,whether it's anxiety or
depression or pornography engagein God's word and it will begin
to transform you.
You talk about giving andgenerosity.
One of the unique factors inthe study was if a person
engaged in God's word four moretimes per week, giving in the
church went up 417%.

(44:21):
It was crazy.
People shared their faith wentup 417%.
It was crazy.
People shared their faith, theysaid 220% more likely to do so.
So it's amazing, the power ofGod's word.
We're not surprised, but it'sgreat to see practically the
difference it makes.
And so I would guess, kevin,those who are watching they know
they need to pick up the book,but they're also wondering okay,

(44:41):
great, how do I apply this tomy own life?
Like practically, how do I liveout organic discipleship?
What do they do?

Speaker 2 (44:52):
Yeah, well, I think the first step is to, in your
mind, actually agree, I think,with what is true we have in our
modern world.
We say, well, I believe insomething, but it doesn't
actually change our lives.
In the ancient world, beliefand living were bound together,

(45:13):
and so we're going to say, well,I give assent to those certain
things.
But when you read the Bible andyou actually believe what it
says is true, it shapeseverything.
It shapes everything.
It shapes everything.
It shapes how you live, how youlove, how you vote, how you
spend your free time, how youparent, if you're married, how

(45:35):
you love your spouse.
Although the Bible doesn'tanswer every single question, it
addresses every topic in life,the, you know, the Bible didn't
answer the question which who'sthe right woman for me to marry.
I didn't turn to a page thatsays Sherry Lynn Harney, you're
going to meet her on this summer.
This, you know.
I got questions where itdoesn't answer my exact question
, but every topic and everyaspect of life.

(45:57):
It is there and it is powerfuland so, yeah, so, so, so, you
know, you know to immerseyourself in Scripture.
I think the starting point isto read the Word, and then you
know, and I just did a series atour church called the Book, a
three-week series on basicallyhow to understand Scripture and
how to read Scripture.
And one of the things I waschallenging people in is that

(46:19):
you know, you need to not justread it and apply it, you need
to read it and then do thatinterpretive processing.
Okay, what was God saying toNehemiah?
And, through Nehemiah, what wasGod saying to Abraham?
Or to Sarah, what was Godsaying to Timothy?
And not just go, here's an idea.
I'm going to apply it to mylife.
Let's say, here's the biblicaltruth.
What does that mean?
How do we, matter of fact, thiscommentary series right above

(46:42):
my head here, um, the nyvacseries, it it actually sets up
where every pericope, everypassage in the bible, it goes
through the original meaning,the interpretive context and
then life application.
So it's life application everypassage and it has what the text
is saying.
But then how do we understandit?
How do we?
How do we bridge from theancient world to our world today
?
And when you do that well, thescriptures come alive.

(47:06):
I was so glad when I firstbecame a christian that they
gave me a, the revised standardversion, harper study bible.
Uh, because the notes at thebottom.
I didn't know what a shekel was, I didn't know what I mean.
There were all these differentwords, that I and but, but.
But it also gives somebackground, some history and
what was happening in that partof the world, and it put those
pieces together.
So I think, to become students,there's times, if you've got

(47:28):
five minutes, you just want toread a psalm and meditate on it.
It's fantastic.
But I think that life changecomes when we understand what it
says, what it means, and thenwe say what does it mean for me
today, this week, in my life, mymarriage, my family, my
workplace?
And then to apply that truth ina way.
That's this transformation andso it's.

(47:48):
It's it.
There is that call to go alittle deeper and to think a
little bit more.
And I know uh, you know, nat,for you and your background in
in, you know where you've workedand what you've done as a
pastor and also through, uh, inthe world, of moving people
towards biblical engagement.
Um, engagement, when we reallytake the time to understand the

(48:09):
Scripture and then to seek tolive it out, it changes
everything.
It's powerful and you want more.
You want more because you feelthe power of God moving through
you to transform you.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
Preach.
Yeah, so you're not startingoff a young disciple reading
Numbers or Leviticus?
I'm guessing that's a joke, butmaybe not a good one.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
You know, when I got my first Bible they just said to
read it and I'd never read it.
I only read books that werechronological and that were you
know.
And so I just read from thebeginning to the end and the guy
that asked me said I thoughtyou would get stuck in Leviticus
and be done.
But I said no, I said I didn'tget it totally, but I read it
and I even read all the.
I said I read all the names,all the lists of names.

(48:51):
I read every.
You said it's God's word andit's true.
So I read every name too.
I wouldn't jump over thoseparts.
And he was like wow, he said Idon't think I've even done it.
I love it, but with a newbeliever that maybe are a little
more accessible.
But Genesis is fantastic.
I mean, genesis is verynarrative, very story-oriented,

(49:12):
but it's teaching people notjust to read the Bible but how
to read the Bible right.

Speaker 3 (49:18):
Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
Well, I've got one more question for you, but, dan,
do you have anything before wemove on to closing this program
out?

Speaker 3 (49:28):
uh, well, some of the practical advice stuff I kind
of want.
I do have some questions there.
I don't I want to steal yourthunder um on that one.
I know you, you've got somestuff to encourage believers and
leaders.
I'm just curious about asituation where if you have a

(49:48):
young family we have a churchmostly of young people, but a
young family, two kids indiapers how do you encourage
them?
What does it look like for them, I mean, as they're trying to
manage the load of time offamily, the needs of their kids,
what does it look like in theircontext?

Speaker 2 (50:12):
So I think one of the greatest pieces of advice I
could give is and we, our boys,are all in their thirties now,
but they're, you know, they wereone, three and five, and you
know, seven, nine and 11.
They were always, you know,they're two years apart.
So we had three little ones.
All at the same time we had tograpple with our own lives.
Our two, our two of our threesons are married and have kids.

(50:34):
The other one's married and has.
They have dogs.
But, um, but our two kids withkids, um, we challenged them.
We.
You can't say this is a busyseason, so I'm really not going
to walk in a meaningful way withJesus.
I'll get back to that laterbecause it's always a busy
season, it just is.
I mean, there are times thatare more intensive and so the
best counsel I can give toanybody is to think about the

(50:56):
2-2-2 lifestyle, 2 Timothy 2-2.
You know Paul says the thingsyou've heard from me.
You grow in those things.
You entrust them to faithful,reliable people that they can
teach others also.
So here's what I would say to ayoung mom with three little
kids you find a woman in yourchurch or in your community who
loves Jesus and you pray, lord,is this somebody that I respect

(51:24):
and that could pour into my lifespiritually that I would want
to become more like as I becomemore like Jesus.
And you go and you pray, do itprayerfully, and you go to that
person and you say, listen, Idon't want to pressure you, but
I'd love to you know with mylife the way it is right now.
Maybe once a month I'll getwith you for maybe an hour, hour
and a half and would you justtake my hand spiritually on
accountability.
I've got some years.
I'm trying to grow.
I'd just like to ask youquestions and gain wisdom from
you.
But I want to become more likeJesus.

(51:45):
I see Jesus in you.
Would you pray about that andmaybe next week or so, let me
know if you'd be open to doingthat?
And if that person isn'tavailable, you pray and you'd go
to the next person and you'd berelentless to make sure that
this hand of spiritual wealth isnot empty and you can't say,
well, my pastor disciples me.
I hope your pastor isdiscipling you.
We tell people anytime someonetakes the hand of someone and

(52:06):
walks with them and they becomemore like Jesus.
That's discipleship, becausediscipleship is following Jesus.
So lots of people can discipleyou, but you need somebody who's
investing in you.
Right Then part one?
Okay, that's someone who'spouring into your life and then
you make some time every day totend to your soul, to spend time
in prayer, to be in the Word.

(52:28):
It might be five or sevenminutes is all you can do right
now, but you do that.
Susanna Wesley there's differentaccounts of how many kids she
had, how many she bore and howmany lived, but the mother of
Charles and John Wesley, herkids knew and this is well
documented her kids knew thatwhen she was in the kitchen, at
the dining room table, she wouldtake her apron and when she put

(52:51):
it up over her head and coveredher head, that was her prayer
tent and they had to be quietand not bother her.
I said that to Sarah one timeand I said and so she would put
her dress over her head.
My wife said to me after shesaid it was her apron, not her
dress.
I said important distinction.
Here's this mom raising agaggle of kids, but she had to

(53:15):
teach them.
There's times that mom needs tobe with Jesus.
There's times that mom needs tobe quiet here and seek the face
of Jesus, and so you tend toyour own spiritual, with some
time in the word and prayer, andgo through those seven markers.
Am I being joyfully generous?
Am I modeling it to my kids andtend to those things?
And then, as busy as you are,whose hand are you taking?
If it's your kids, and itshould be if you're raising

(53:36):
young kids, do it intentionally,don't just say I'm trying to
help them.
Now you've got seven markers.
Am I helping my kids have Bibleengagement?
Am I teaching my kids to praywith passion?
Am I teaching my kids joyfulgenerosity?
Am I teaching my kids theimportance of community?
Am I teaching my kids abouthumble service?
Our kids served with Sherry andI from their youngest days and

(53:57):
two of them went into ministryand then one went from ministry
into a different career.
I actually had him on my staff.
He was amazing.
But a financial guy saw him andsaid would you consider being a
, basically a minister in themarketplace?
And I'm like, hey, wherever Godwants you man, go serve, serve
Jesus.
But but are you, are youactually, if you've got kids,
start discipling your kids fromtheir youngest, youngest days,

(54:19):
all right, and then those thatyou disciple, you teach them to
do that for somebody else andyou say, okay, well, that's a
lot, but it's not a lot, it's alifestyle.
It's a lifestyle and if youmake it part of your life and
not a chore that you do and thatyou said earlier about, you
know, moving from it being achore and a thing I have to do
to being something that I longto do, picture your life like

(54:40):
that.
What?
Picture your life like that?
What if you all you know youngwomen, younger men, older women,
older men, what if you hadsomebody who was really
investing in you spiritually?
You know they were praying foryou and walking with you?
What if you were tending toyour own spiritual life and you
had some ways to measure howyou're doing?
And for anyone listening theycan go on the organicoutreachcom
or organicoutreachorg I thinkwe own both domains and do the

(55:01):
spiritual growth self-assessmentand you'll get results
immediately.
You'll see where you're strong,you'll see where you can grow
and then it gives you ideas ofways you can grow and ways you
can work on it.
We had somebody from ShorelineChurch in Texas I'm Shoreline
Church in Monterey, not relatedbut we had a woman who went on
our website thinking it was herwebsite and her church.
And she did the assessment andshe marked the button her church

(55:22):
.
And she did the assessment andshe marked the button.
So my wife reached out to meand said how long have you been
coming to Shoreline?
She said about a year or so.
Then, after about five minutes,sherry realized that she was
talking to me and the woman saidwell, would you still walk me
through the markers and justtalk with me?
So they got on a zoom call andmy wife just poured into her and
got her on a journey of growthand said now you'll find someone
in your community that can walkwith you.
And so that was the bestcounsel I could give.

(55:42):
And here's the deal If you don'tstart now, you're not going to
start.
That's not true.
You might start, but I mean Ijust tell people don't wait till
things slow down, because if Iwas waiting till things slowed
down, I would never have moved,because things are always
running hard.
So well, now I got teenagersand they're really busy.
Well, now I got grandkids.
Now I'm dead.
Okay.

(56:03):
Well, I should have gone on topof that.
You know, it's like jumping.
Does that get to what you'reasking about, dan Does?

Speaker 3 (56:08):
that help.
Yeah, I love that.
I love it.
Thank you for that.
Can you repeat that websiteagain?

Speaker 2 (56:13):
Yeah, it's just organicoutreachcom or
organicoutreachorg O-R-G to tellyou everything on the website's
free.
We're developing these newthings called pathways.
There's like Explorer's Pathway, expeditioner Pathway that
actually gives you a wholecurriculum of videos, readings,
prayer, direction to grow inyour own discipleship and
evangelism.
All the pathways are free, allthe resources are free and

(56:36):
there's nothing people candonate if they want to.
But it's just trying to helppeople grow in that journey of
discipleship.
And so they were just releasingthe day hiker, which is kind of
an introductory pathway that ifsomebody did they would get a
new vision of discipleship andevangelism.
And it's my wife, myself, waltTom Green, a new guy on our team
, blake, different people doingsome teaching.

(56:56):
But it's like here's a fourminute video, here's a
reflection question.
Take five minutes and prayabout this.
It just gives people a journeyof growth and we're in the
middle of.
I think we're going to havefive pathways.
I think we've got two launched.
But if you have a problemgetting on the website, if
there's any issues, just contactOrganic Outreach and talk with
one of our team and they'll helpfigure it out for you.
But we want people to take holdof the responsibility to grow

(57:18):
spiritually and to do it incommunity.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Wow, they recommend community.
Wow, I highly recommend thoseresources.
And just for clarity, not TomGreen from MTV, so different at
Tom Green.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
We had two Tom Greens on our team at the same time
and one volunteering, one onstaff at our church, tom Green
with an E at the end of thegreen, so it would be the Tom
Green with the E or Tom Greenwithout the E.
And the one, Tom Green with theE, actually went to Jesus just
a couple, just just a month anda half.
Well, not the one for organicoutreach, but the one that was
working with our adult spiritualformation.
But uh, but neither of them arethe other tom green, just just

(57:53):
for the record okay, yeah, justfor clarity.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
Good, some people may ask exactly, uh, you know?
Last question I have for you,kevin.
Um, really goes back to marcusseven organic outreach and
Outreach and really the originalbook.
When a person or a churchreally goes down this path of
organic discipleship and reallyleans into the organic outreach
and they're praying for peopleand praying with people and

(58:16):
loving God and loving peoplemore, they buy into that concept
that everyone plays.
They buy into that concept thateveryone plays, that will
inevitably bring on change inthe church.
And change and growth is, Ithink, what we all long for and
pray for.
Spiritual growth first andforemost, but often with that
comes numerical growth and youcan get into those seasons where

(58:41):
it becomes well, our church isno longer our church, my church
versus your church.
So how would you coach,encourage, disciple someone
who's watching today, who theirchurch is going through that
season and it's changing andit's hard.
That's a reality for a lot ofchurches.
So how would you encouragesomeone who's experiencing that

(59:05):
or who they will if they go downthis path?

Speaker 2 (59:07):
Yeah, that's a great question and not exactly what
you said happens.
When a church, if you have achurch of 50 and you reach 35 or
40 new people that becomebelievers, you know this is
amazing.
Then you start to think wait aminute, the new ones are
outnumbering.
We're the founding members, wehelp pay for this building and
now we got more people.
We got more people here thataren't part of our group, that

(59:29):
you know and, and I meaneveryone prays for that and they
want that.
But then when it happens you'reright it just kind of like Whoa
, whoa, whoa.
I had one guy that was on thesearch team for the.
He said we want to reach thelost, we want to reach the
community.
Well, the church doubled and alot of it was through new
believer growth.
And then the church doubledagain and he came to me and he
said I think we should.

(59:49):
I think we should plant a newchurch.
I said oh, wow, you're gettinga vision for the world.
I said tell me about it.
He goes yeah, we got to start anew church and send all these
new people there.
I said oh, you're trying tounload the new people.
I said no, no.
I said that's not how we'regoing to start a new church.
We eventually did that, but wedid a church, but we didn't do
it for that reason.
And so here's what I would say,and I'm just going to talk to

(01:00:10):
them.
If that's you right now and youare like I love my church, I
love Jesus, I love the lost, butnow we're disenfranchised, a
little disconnected becausethere's just more people and I
wanted that, but now I'm kind oflike I don't know quite exactly
what to do with that.
I would say to you look at thescriptures and see the heart of

(01:00:38):
Jesus.
These are people that werewandering like sheep without a
shepherd and they have come hometo the good shepherd.
Your role is no longer to justsay this is my church.
Your role is to say whose handdo I take?
I got people helping me, butnow I'm going to say who are
these new people?
These are new believers.
Go to your pastor and say willyou train me so I can help new
believers grow in their faith?
Will you train me?
How can I use my gifts?

(01:00:58):
Maybe you've been hanging back,not doing very much.
Man, your church needs you nowand don't feel like an outsider
in your own church.
Step into humble service,consistent community walk with
people, love people.
I remember a woman who came tome this was years ago, first
church I served and we hadintroduced some new music.
The first church I served, myfirst Sunday was their 100-year

(01:01:19):
anniversary Sunday and they hadnot changed their order of
worship for 100 years.
And when they called me I saidI didn't even grow up in the
church and I'm a person thatwants to reach the lost and I
don't think you're ready tocount the cost.
And they said we are, we are.
And then they hired me and westarted reaching lost people and
some people started struggling.
This woman came to me and shesaid she said, pastor, I want to
let you know that I don't likethe new music.

(01:01:41):
I don't like the guitar, Idon't like the, I like the hymns
and I like the organ.
And this is.
This is going back 30 plusyears.
And I said to her do you thinkwe should stop doing the new
music?
And she said oh, no, no, Ithink we should.
I just want you to know I don'tlike it.
And I was kind of like.
I was kind of like, and then ithit me.

(01:02:02):
I was like wait a minute.
She is telling me you're mypastor, love me, and I'm going
to sacrifice.
I'm going to give up somethings I love.
I'm going to count the cost.
I just need you to know it'shard for me to be my pastor.
I get mad at her.
I just said to her her name wasMargaret.
I said, margaret, I love yourheart.

(01:02:23):
I said you're, you're going togive up what you love for people
that Jesus loves, that arecoming home to him.
She says, yeah, I just need youto be my pastor.
I know it's hard for me and Ithought I said I'll walk with
you, but I said let's together,let's just keep loving the lost
and inviting him in.
And uh, and she became one ofmy outreach heroes.
Uh, she was able to say andhere's the crazy part you know,

(01:02:43):
when Jesus, when people followJesus, what did he say to them?
He said if you're going to bemy follower, all you got to do
is just deny yourself and beready to die every day and go
where I go.
That's all.
Just deny yourself, take upyour cross, follow me.
It's like well, wait a minute.
That's right, it's not.

(01:03:04):
It wasn't designed to be easy,it was designed to be
world-changing.
And so here's what I would sayto pastors listening Pastor your
people when you're invitingthem to outreach.
Be patient with them, love them, care for them.
It's sacrificial and that'swhat our life is about as
Christians.
But invite them on the journeyand I will tell you, I'll tell

(01:03:26):
you, the people who have beenthe most resistant to outreach
in the two.
I've not bounced around.
I've served two churches asenior pastor and I.
I stay, you know, I, I in bothcases about 15 years, and um and
so, um, we, you know, I, just Ijust lost my train of thought
when I was.
I was thinking about 15 yearsand thinking about that in
January I'm not going to be alead pastor for the first time
in my life and my brain went off.

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
The people who resist the most.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
Oh, thank you, Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, the people who resist themost have become the greatest
partners.
Because here's the thing theylove Jesus, they believe the
Word.
I tell pastors, if your peoplebelieve the word of God and if
they love Jesus and if they lovethe lost, they will learn to
count the cost.
It won't happen like this.
So keep reminding them of whatthe word says, keep reminding
them what the mission of Jesusis and invite them to be part of

(01:04:13):
it, not to be observers, to bepartners in it.
So my strongest partners in boththe churches I've served have
been men and women who initiallywere highly resistant.
Two of my pastors in the churchI serve right now that fought
the most and were passive,resistant, for like the first
year of trying to reach ourcommunity.

(01:04:33):
They wanted to do it, but theywere just like.
This is just a fad.
You're going to talk about thisfor a while.
We're going to move to the nextthing.
I know how pastors are.
I said, no, this isn't the nextthing, this is Jesus' thing.
This is why he came.
He came to seek and save thelost and when they realized that
this is who we are, they havebought in and jumped in and are
reaching out to lost people andteaching others to do the same.
And so, pastors, be patient andchurch members if you're

(01:04:54):
struggling and hurting man,that's hard, but this is the
call, this is what we're meantto do and be, and if your church
isn't reaching out to the lost,spend some time and write a
note to your pastor and say, hey, can we start to reach out more
to our community?
I think we need to get intothis.
This is something that is theheart of Jesus, and how can I
help you do it?

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
Wow, so good yeah.
So good, so good yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
So, Kevin, if people want to follow you, get those
resources, start implementingthis stuff.
What's the best way for them todo so?

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
Yeah, so I'm not a social media guy so I don't have
the traditional following typestuff.
But if you go to our websitethat's the best way to do that
organicoutreachorg or com andjust to register.
There's no cost.
You just register by givingyour email address, put your
name in there, pick a word youknow for your pastor.
There's a password, but justpick your own name or something
very simple, because no one'sgoing to break in to steal your

(01:05:50):
evangelism stuff, trust me, butget an account for you.
You can get an account for yourchurch and try one of the
pathways A couple you're goingto click and say coming soon.
That doesn't mean in 20 years,that means the next two or three
months, but there's some thatare already set up.
Begin to look at that.
Do the, do this the assessment,the spiritual growth assessment
and check your own markers outand and uh and.

(01:06:13):
If you want any of the books,just go on to.
They're on Amazon, they're atZonderman and uh and they're.
I hope they're helpful andthey're also.
Most of them are in audio booksand e-books as well as hard
copy, and I tell people I don'tcare if you use the approach
that I'm trying to put togethera simple biblical pathway.
I don't care if you use thepathway we put together.
Just begin to love the lost,pray for the lost, walk with

(01:06:36):
them, encourage your church toreach the lost, because this is
the call of Jesus, and you willfind more joy and more meaning
and more richness in life whenyou're with Jesus on mission,
when you grow in Jesus.
You go with Jesus.
So walk with him in God's name.

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Faith in Real Life Ep. 011 - Kevin Harney - From Atheism to Organic Discipleship

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Faith in Real Life Ep. 011 - Kevin Harney - From Atheism to Organic Discipleship