February 25, 2025 • 55 mins
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Discover the keys to a thriving marriage with insights from Doug Hinderer, a seasoned marriage and family therapist. Doug shares his personal and professional journey, offering wisdom on overcoming the challenges of marriage while raising a family. With a touch of humor and heartfelt stories, he discusses his new book, "Rekindled Hearts: A Spiritual Journey to Marital Healing." Join us as we explore the resilience needed to maintain a loving relationship amidst life's chaos.
In this episode you will hear:
• Importance of recognizing that conflict is a natural part of marriage
• Discussion on needs: respect for men, love for women
• Four Horsemen of marriage: criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling
• Introduction of "gentle startup" communication technique
• Emphasis on daily 1% investment of time to nurture love
• Significance of forgiveness in sustaining healthy relationships
Be sure to tune-in to Doug's call-in radio show, Marriage Unhindererd, on Relevant Radio every Monday-Friday from 5-6pm cst.
The Thriving Family Accelerator provides an easy, 3-step process to lower stress, parent as a united team, and enjoy a true friendship with your spouse & relationship with your kids. Sign up now for this live parent coaching with proven methods for positively engaging your family and redistributing the mental load.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey there, welcome back parents.
Listen, I am super excited tointroduce our guest today who's
going to be talking abouthandling conflict in marriage
and how to keep love alive.
When you are, you know raisingkids and changing diapers and
doing dishes and making dinnerright.
(00:22):
So it's really exciting to meto have someone else on the show
who has been married a goodchunk of time 44 years.
He's been married to hisamazing wife, shirley.
They've raised nine childrenand are welcoming soon to be 10
(00:42):
grandchildren.
He's also a licensed marriageand family therapist.
So between the personalexperience of being married and
raising a family and theprofessional experience of
working with married couples ina therapy setting, this is just
going to knock your socks off.
So the other really cool thingI want to say up front is that
(01:08):
our guest has a daily call-inshow on the radio on relevant
radio called Marriage Unhindered.
So you can actually call infrom your phone and ask a
question and he will give youlive support.
Ask a question and he will giveyou live support, live feedback
(01:29):
, and then others can learn fromwhatever it was that you were
curious about.
So, without further ado,welcome to the show, doug
Hinderer.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Jordan, it is a great pleasure to be with you.
Thanks so much.
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yes, this is awesome and you have a book coming out.
You have a book that is comingout on Love Day, on Valentine's
Day, st Valentine's RekindledHearts A Spiritual Journey to
Marital Healing.
Is this your first book, doug?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Oh, yes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I you know what it is sofar, out of any self-image I've
got of who I am, that I'mactually an author and a
published author.
It's just crazy.
And my oldest daughter, katie,is a journalist and she does a
lot of great work.
And she grabbed me one day andsaid, dad, you need to write a
book.
And I'm like, yeah, right afterI learned how to fly without an
(02:18):
airplane.
And she said you know, youspent a lot of money on my
education, I can help you withthat.
And so she rented an Airbnb fora week and we got together, we
spent a week crafting this thingout and flip chart paper on the
walls and all that kind ofstuff, and off we went and the
book ended up very differentfrom what I had in mind, but I'm
(02:42):
pretty happy with it.
Well, I don't know if anybodywill buy it, but I'm pretty
happy with it.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, I don't know if anybody will buy it, but I'm
pretty happy with it hey, we'regonna make sure that there's a
link in our show notes to beable to pre-order it.
And then, of course, afterfebruary 14th, you can just
order that right from scepterpublishers and, uh, get you a
copy.
I'm excited to get my own copy,so, let's, let's dive in here.
I mean, you've you've counseledcouples for years married
(03:05):
couples in a counseling settingand one of the things I loved
about your bio is that it saysthat your approach is rooted in
the belief that every marriage,no matter how strained, can be
revitalized with commitment,mutual respect and the right
tools.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know what, as atherapist, I mean I have to
believe that, right, I have tobelieve, but I do.
I don't believe it just becauseI have to, but it's true.
And I've seen miracles, youknow, and I've seen marriages
that have crashed and burned.
And I've had couples that I'veworked with where they walk into
a store and, man, you don't,you don't have a chance, this is
(03:47):
not going to work, and they,they pull together and other
couples are probably like, man,this is, yeah, we'll get this
figured out, and they end updivorcing.
So it I've, I've seen miracles.
Miracles happen.
Sometimes it takes miracles,but if both parties are willing,
then it works.
And if one of them says, yeah,I'm not doing this, well, you
know, it only takes one to ruina marriage.
(04:08):
It takes two to make it work.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yes, it takes two to make it work, that is for sure.
And it's a hard road.
You've been married 44 years.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, I was talking tomy wife today and we're trying
to figure out what I should dofor Valentine's Day, and I think
I suggested that I have her on,and that's way out of her
comfort zone and she's like Idon't think, I want to do that,
but we started this.
Well, what do you want to talkabout?
And going through it, it's likeyou know, when you go back and
look, you actually seriouslythink about 44 years.
(04:40):
I mean, there were some lowspots, you know, and there were
some great high spots.
But, man, there were a couplespots where, man, we were
skinning off our knees, you know, we just weren't doing well at
all, and um, and we pulled ittogether without any help.
We didn't go to counseling andwe were doing the best we could
and it was as interesting as Iwas this is my second career, so
(05:01):
I've been doing this for abouteight years and and um, so I'm
back in school, I'm learning alot of this stuff and I'm
bringing it home and talking tomy wife about it and she's like,
man, do you know how manyfights we wouldn't have had over
the last 30 plus years If we'dhave known this?
I'm like a lot you know so andand that's so.
That's kind of my deal is.
Um is just kind of education.
(05:21):
There's great science out thereabout what works and what
doesn't work in a marriage and Ijust want to get the message
out.
So I've got a website whereI've got a couple workshops one
for engaged couples or seriouslydating couples thinking about
getting engaged, to help themget off to a right start and
really figure out is this theperson I should be marrying.
And then I got one I calledMarriage Tune-Up for couples who
(05:41):
just want to tune it up andjust keep working at it.
As you say, it's a daily effortyou got to do.
You got to be intentional aboutbuilding the marriage and I
just want to get the message out.
And now I'm on the radio, whichagain was something I never
thought would.
I never wanted to do it.
I was just, I just came out ofnowhere.
But now I get a chance to getthe message out to even larger
(06:02):
audiences.
And, as you do with the podcast, education is so important to
help people get off to a goodstart and realize that you know
there are solutions to whateverit is that's going wrong.
There's ways to work on it.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yes, well, thank you for your obedience to this call,
because I think it takes thatright.
Like hey, we didn't start outthinking this is we were going
to be on the airwaves, but thisis just sort of where God led us
.
And when you say yes, beautifulthings happen and you're able
to spread the message.
And I love the idea thatcouples counseling is expensive.
(06:35):
I've been a counselor for 20years, $150 an hour, $200 for a
couple session.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
But look at this this is free session.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
But look at this this is free.
You got a daily show onRelevant Radio that is free,
that you can tune into from yourcar, from your computer, from,
you know, on a walk.
Same thing with these podcasts.
It's such a beautiful time forpeople to be able to access this
education and these tools freeof charge?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, for sure.
And I will say it's a veryhumbling thing that somehow God
tapped me on the shoulder andsaid son, I'm putting you on the
radio.
I'm like I don't want to dothis at all.
God's like, well, too bad.
Son, you're going, and yes, andon the Relevant Radio app.
If you download the app or goto the website, you can get
access to all the past shows.
(07:19):
Yes, and so a lot of times, youknow, the average person, I
guess, listens to AM radio likeeight or ten minutes at a time
because they're in and out ofthe car and they're cooking or
chasing children or whateverthey're doing, and so, but a lot
of times these shows it will,it will, you know, pick your
interest and you'll be like, oh,that's really cool, but I got
(07:41):
to go pick my kid up from schoolso you can come back to it
later and pick up where you leftoff.
And a lot of folks find a lotof value in that.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yes, I was driving in the car yesterday to get my
kids from school and tuned intoone of the most recent episodes
and you had a couple of callersfrom California and I just
really appreciate your candidpersonality and the practical
advice you give and just thetender compassion that you offer
the callers, so you do a greatjob.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
It.
Um, it takes.
It takes a lot of courage tocall into the show.
You know, cause now, now you'reout there and I get I get a lot
of emails from people too, orkind of like you know what I
wanted to call in, but I wasafraid my neighbors would be
listening or my husband would belistening or something, and so
I send in an email and I'll readthose on the air anonymously
and talk about it too.
So but it's, yeah, it's, I'mactually having a lot of fun
(08:34):
doing this and I didn't think Iwould.
I'm like, oh man, but itactually I kind of enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
That's great.
Well, give us jump right in.
You know, when you talk abouthandling conflict in marriage,
what are some of the tips thatyou have for our listeners.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, I think first is just the appreciation that
your marriage is going to haveconflict.
You can't avoid it, right, andyou know we have original sin,
right.
So we come into the world withdefects, and you know, and we
have our own temperament and wehave our own personality and we
have our own interests and thosethings are going to come into
conflict from time to time.
And the research out there thismight be a little, I don't know
(09:14):
, depressing, but it literallysays that 40% or 70% of our
conflicts you're not going tosolve, they're just hardwired.
You're not going to fix them.
30% you can fix.
Well, how do you know if thisconflict is in the 30% or the 70
?
Well, you try to fix it.
If you get it fixed, great.
And if you don't, you don't.
And that's where our faith, Ithink, comes in so valuably.
(09:37):
Is that 70% that I'm not goingto solve?
That now is going to bedifficult for me, right, and now
I have to unite this cross,this suffering, with our Lord,
and together I can take thesethings that kind of irritate me,
that aren't going to change,and sanctify my life, sanctify
my marriage, sanctify my spousethrough these, you know, these
things that are just going toirritate me forever, you know.
(09:59):
And so that's good, and that'swhy our faith is so critical,
because it I mean the thing ofit is we can sanctify suffering,
and that's kind of a radicalthought and certainly a thought
that's contrary to currentculture.
You know, I shouldn't have tosuffer anything, right?
We're like, well, no, you'regoing to suffer in a marriage.
I don't care who you married.
You married somebody withdefects.
(10:19):
And you know, as my wife says,the challenge of marriage is you
got two imperfect people whoare trying to love perfectly,
and it's not going to happen.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So true, so true.
We just had Father NathanCromley on our show and he wrote
a book, coached by St Paul theApostle.
And one of the main points hemade in there is that in
marriage or in life in general,he references St Paul and he
says you know, our trouble isn'tthe trouble, Our trouble is
(10:53):
having trouble with havingtrouble.
Yeah, I agree If you expect yourmarriage is not going to have
lumps and bumps and sideways,turns and detours.
That's where you're going tosuffer the most.
So I love that you just give usthe stats and say, listen, 70%
of this stuff you're not goingto be able to solve, and it's
(11:14):
natural.
It's normal.
This is part of two imperfecthumans being united.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Right.
And it doesn't mean you've gota bad marriage just because you
lock horns sometimes, and itjust I, you know, listen, I, I'm
a morning person.
6am is the best hour of the dayfor me.
My wife's a night owl.
I mean she could stay up tillmidnight, one, two in the
morning working on projects andshe's perfectly happy, right.
Well, over the years thatresolves in conflicts, right.
I mean, you know, I want to getup on Sunday morning and go to
(11:39):
730 mass.
She's like I think you know 10would be good, right.
And so you work these thingsout over time, but she's never
going to become a morning person, I'm never going to become a
night owl.
And so you learn to adjust andcompromise and meet in the
middle.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
So all right, so, anyway.
So first is just the the umacknowledgement that we are
going to have conflict.
All right, good, all right.
And then I talk aboutpredominant needs and fears, and
those tend to be what tripspeople up the most, right?
So the idea is behaviorstrigger emotions and then
emotions trigger behaviors whichtrigger emotions, and off we go
(12:18):
right.
So husband does something,triggers an emotion in the wife.
That emotion.
Think about emotion as thatthing that energizes movement.
Right, so you've triggered anemotion in the wife.
That emotion.
Think about emotion as thatthing that energizes movement.
Right, so you've triggered anemotion.
Now that's going to energize meto say or do something which
will, as the wife that triggersan emotion in the husband,
energizes him to say or dosomething back to her, and off
we go right.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And so you understand your pattern.
So when I start working withcouples, we we spend a lot of
time looking at what yourpattern looks like.
You know what are you doingbehaviorally or verbally that's
triggering negative emotions inyour spouse.
And if we can figure that out,we start changing some behaviors
, or change how which emotionsget triggered, we can start
improving the whole, the whole,the marriage.
(13:01):
So then we talk about needs andfears right, and we have a lot
of needs, a lot of fears, but aman's predominant need is to be
respected and a woman'spredominant need is to be loved.
Now, it doesn't mean men don'twant to be loved and women don't
want to be respected, but itdoes mean if you disrespect me,
I'm going to get triggeredpretty quickly.
And if I do something, as yourhusband, that's unloving, that
(13:24):
leaves you feeling unloved,you're going to be triggered
pretty quickly as well.
Right?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
And then the predominant fear in a man is
failure we hate failure morethan anything and in a woman
it's abandonment, it'sloneliness, being pushed aside.
I really don't need you beingignored in a marriage, right.
And so if you're pointingthings out that I'm doing wrong,
I'm feeling criticized, I'mfeeling like a failure man.
(13:50):
I'm going to have a hard timewith that.
Right.
And if I'm treating you likeyou're not important, that
you're just, you know, you'rejust kind of around, but I'm not
really involving you in what'sgoing on.
I'm not asking your opinionabout things, I'm just well,
you're going to be reallytriggered by that.
So we started looking at what'sgetting triggered in the
marriage, right.
Is the husband feeling like afailure or disrespected?
(14:11):
Is the wife feeling unloved andfeeling lonely in the marriage?
And how do we address thoseissues too, right?
So that's how we get startedanyway.
When I first start working witha couple and then we go on from
there, does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
It makes so much sense and I love to boil it down
to that.
Because men and women aredifferent, right we?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
were created.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yes, we were created to compliment one another and we
do that beautifully if weunderstand the primary needs of
our spouse right.
And so I love that you say.
You know, men, primary need isrespect.
Primary fear is failure.
Women, primary need is to beloved and our primary fear is
loneliness, or that fear ofabandonment.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
I think there's a scriptural basis for that right
St Paul's letter to theEphesians, fifth chapter
husbands love your wives, wivesrespect your husbands.
Well, you know, here we are2000 years later and we have
research that says St Paul wasright.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Imagine this Duh, right, he's St Paul.
But I think, if you go back toGenesis, right, adam, one of
Adam's sins, before he even atethe apple, was he failed to
protect his wife.
I mean, she's in danger, theserpent is in the garden and he
didn't protect her.
And I saw.
I think that I'm not atheologian, but I think when us
men inherit original sin, partof what we inherit is this fear
of failure, because it wasAdam's failure that kind of got
(15:34):
the whole table set Right.
And then I mean, why did Godcreate Eve to begin with?
Right, I mean, he looked atAdam and said not good for him
to be alone.
Right, he needs a help, heneeds a helpmate.
Well, he could have createdanother guy who would help him
plow a field, build a barn,watch football on Sundays, but
he didn't.
He created a woman radicallydifferent whose job description
(15:56):
is go help the boy.
He needs help.
He can't do this, he needs yourhelp.
And so when we push our wivesaside and we don't involve them,
what's going on, man, that goesright to your job description,
your basic, fundamental, corething I'm here to help you, to
partner with you, to get throughlife.
And when we don't allow ourwives to do that.
That's a tough thing andresearch out there by John
(16:23):
Gottman says that happymarriages are when both husband
and wife accept influence fromeach other.
Especially predictive of happymarriages is when the husband
accepts influence from the wife,goes right back to the Garden
of Eden, go influence the boy,help him.
He needs help.
And when we allow our wives todo that, things work very well
because that's how God set it up.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yes, oh.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
That's that complementarity.
It's where you're workingtogether as one.
The two become as one.
Not because you're both doingthe same thing, but you're both
working out of your gifting forthe other.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, yeah, exactly Exactly, and so I've got special
gifts and talents that God hasgiven me, as do you, and when we
put that together, it works.
God actually knew what he wasdoing, right.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Imagine that.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Imagine that.
So, anyway, so we do that, thenwe spend time talking about.
There are four things thatreally are at the core of
everything, of all thedisharmony in a marriage.
Just four, which is pretty cool, like you don't have to
remember 72 things.
Just four, right?
The challenge in that is theaverage man can only hold three
(17:32):
ideas in his brain at once, sothe man still had a disadvantage
here.
And this is research by JohnGottman, who's kind of the
leading researcher I'm sureyou're very familiar with him
what marriage is all about.
So he said these four behaviors.
First is criticism, where I keeppointing out what's wrong with
you, kind of like it's my job tofix you.
I'm going to point outeverything you're doing wrong,
(17:53):
right?
Well, the problem withcriticism is, if the wife is
leveling to criticism, thehusband's feeling like a failure
.
I mean, every time you talk tome, you tell me what I'm doing
wrong.
Well, that's kind of triggering.
If the husband is highlycritical, well, the wife's not
feeling too loved, right?
If every time you talk to me,it's not a loving conversation,
it's a judgmental conversation,I'm not, I'm not liking that a
(18:14):
whole lot, right?
So criticism doesn't work.
The next one is contempt.
I think of contempt asmean-spirited criticism.
So this is name-calling,devaluing sarcasm.
This is put down.
It is the most predictive ofdivorce because it's the most
hurtful, it's the mostintentional I'm intentionally
(18:35):
going to hurt you now becauseI'm mad and I'm going to let you
have it Right and so that'sreally damaging.
So this mean spiritedconversation is very damaging.
Number three is stonewalling.
So I just shut down and walkaway.
You know I'm not having thisfight anymore and I'm done and I
walk away.
Well, if the husband walks away, it kind of leaves the wife
(18:55):
feeling a little abandoned,right, yeah.
And if the wife walks away, itleaves the husband feeling kind
of disrespected.
You know, you just turn yourback on me and you walk away.
It's not too respectful.
And the research is kind ofinteresting that once your heart
rate gets to about 100 beatsper minute, you've lost your
ability to be rational.
You're now in fight or flightmode, right?
(19:21):
Well, I don't want to get in abig fight, so I'm just going to
get out of here, I'm going to goaway.
Well, that leaves the wifeabandoned, and I was, so that
really doesn't work either.
Um and the, um, the, uh, the,the.
The technique I talk about isyou've got to be able to call a
timeout Once you feel yourselfelevating, getting escalated.
You got to call a timeoutbecause you're just going to
drop into contempt and that'sjust going to make it worse.
(19:41):
But the important part of thetimeout is you've got to say
when you're coming back.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Always.
Yes, that's the main thing.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
I need a break.
I'll be back in an hour, okayfine, or I'm too upset.
We're not going to figure thisout tonight.
Can we pick it up tomorrow orwhatever it is, or let's wait
till the weekend.
We have more time.
But you've got to be able toand you know, and then the
husband's feeling respected andthe wife's not feeling abandoned
, so, but you've got to talkabout when we just we fight and
argue and back forth back forth,until we just run out of energy
(20:15):
and we quit.
But you don't ever solveanything Right, so it never gets
solved.
Well, you got to come back whenyou can calm down and then you
got a better chance of gettingit solved.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
And then the last one is defensiveness.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
That's not my fault, it's your fault.
Okay, um and uh.
Obviously I can't fix theproblem if I don't own my share
of it.
And so the problem is, you know, when couples come in for
therapy, for counseling, they're, they're pointing their finger
at each other, right and right.
And you know, and the husband's, like you know, doug, my wife's
(20:48):
a lot of control man, if youcan just reel her in, I'll be
fine.
And the wife's, like Doug, I'mmarried to an idiot.
If you can fix him, everythingwill be good, right, and I get
it.
That's why you're showing up,right, because you're fussing
and fighting and you're reallyclear about what's wrong with
the person you're married to.
And that's okay for the firstfew sessions.
But at some point you got toturn that around and look in the
mirror and say, okay, this isthe person I've got to fix.
(21:09):
And what am I doing that'scontributing to the disharmony?
And which of those four horsesam I climbing?
Because we all kind of have afavorite horse right.
Oh, one of those kind of likeah, that's the one I go to right
when I'm upset, and I got tostart changing that.
And if both, if you get, youknow, both the husband and the
wife to say, okay, what do Ineed to do different, then it
(21:31):
works because they start makingchanges.
Um, but if one of them or bothof them kind of get stuck in
that no, the other guy needschanged and I'm not changing
until you change, you get youract together and then I'll you
know.
Well, then it's, then it maynot work.
That's the problem, right?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So you just talked about the four horsemen there
right Criticism, content,stonewalling and defensiveness.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Correct the four horsemen apocalypse.
And those are at the core ofjust about everything that goes
wrong in a marriage.
And so you know I spend timeworking with couples when we
identify which of those horseskeep showing up and I encourage
them to write that down, put iton the refrigerator and then
promise each other we are notgoing to let these bad boys in
our marriage ever again.
(22:11):
And I give you permission tocall me out if I climb on one of
those horses.
I give you permission to say,doug man, I'm feeling criticized
and I will reply I'm sorry, Idon't want to do that, let me
find another way to talk aboutthis.
And so if I give you permissionto call it out and if we both
swear, you know we're not goingto go there, we're not doing
(22:32):
that anymore, we're getting outof our marriage.
You can't.
It can take a while.
One of the things when I firststarted meeting with couples
that kind of surprised me wasthe number of couples I was
meeting who had been marriedlike a year or two, right, and
I'm like boy, how can it go sobad in a year or two that you
need therapy?
But what I found is they wereable to get it together really
quick because they didn't haveyears and decades of bad
(22:54):
patterns and they were able tosay oh man, now I know what I'm
doing wrong, oh, I can fix thatpretty quick.
But you get a couple that'sbeen married 20, 30 years man,
they've got that pattern ispretty entrenched of behaviors,
emotions, behaviors, emotions.
It's a lot harder for them toturn the ship.
So the moral story is get helpsooner rather than later.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yes, I'm kind of giggling over here because I've
got this vision of me ridingthis horse for 20 years and the
saddle's like real broken in.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
It feels real comfortable.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Right, right, and sometimes you're just so used to
, you know, responding in adefensive way or you've.
You know the criticism has justbeen a pattern and it can
become one of those that it'shard to get off the horse, you
know.
Push it aside and try somethingnew.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Well, yeah, exactly, and we tend to adopt the same
patterns.
Our parents had right, well,and our parents weren't weren't
perfect, they had flaws, so theway they handled conflict was
was flawed.
But that's the pattern, andeither we do the same thing or
we do the opposite, the exactopposite, right and um.
So it kind of gets passed downgenerationally.
And I think part of the thingthat gets me excited is I'm able
(24:08):
to get in the middle of thatgenerational pattern and say,
okay, it stops here with you,that generational pattern, and
say, okay, it stops here withyou.
You start doing it differentlyand then you can pass on the
better way of doing it to yourchildren and then we can spread
the right way to do it.
So that's kind of the excitingpart of doing this work.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
I love that and I think it's important to you know
, come to an understanding thatthere's these four types of of
conflict or behaviors you know,and that they have a name and if
we can identify what ourbehavior is.
Give it a name, then we cankind of tame it.
We say that all the time nameit to tame it right.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
What is this?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I love that this is the criticism horse, right?
Okay, then we know what it is.
Now we can do something aboutit.
So you give couples the toolsto overcome these four behaviors
.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
That's the idea, right, exactly right.
And so the tool that I use Icalled it, gottman talked about
it, he called it well, I call itgentle startup, he called it a
gentle conversation.
I think I also kind of call itthe formula, because there's
three parts to the formula andyou got to do it in, you know,
in the right way.
And so the first.
There's three parts.
So the first part is that thewords I feel, and then you label
(25:19):
your emotion.
So I feel frightened, I feelangry, I feel abandoned, I feel
lonely, I feel, you know,anxious.
I feel.
Second part, when you, then Italk about what it is you did
that triggered that emotion.
So it's kind of that behavioremotion thing, but in reverse,
what's the emotion and what didyou do, right?
So I felt anxious and worriedwhen you came home an hour late
(25:43):
and didn't call and tell meyou're going to be late.
Oh, okay.
And then the last.
So it's, I feel when you, andthen the last of it is and I'd
like to ask you to please, whatyou want to do different next
time, all right.
So I felt anxious and worriedwhen you came home an hour late
and didn't call and tell meyou're going to be late.
I'd like to ask you next timeto please call if you're going
(26:05):
to be more than 15 minutes late.
Oh, I can do that.
Sure, that's easy.
But you've got to do it in thatorder.
And if you start with number two, when you, it feels a lot like
criticism or contempt, and thenI'm going to either shut down in
Stonewall or I'm going to getdefensive, or I might
counterattack with my owncriticism.
Well, you, yeah, yeah, you comehome late, you never call, so
(26:27):
that's not going to work.
So, and again, I encourage mycouples write that down, put it
on your refrigerator and makethat part of the very lexicon of
your relationship.
Put it on the mirror in thebathroom and in the front seat
of the car and everywhere whereyou tend to get into arguments,
and then say listen, whenever Ihear you start a conversation
(26:47):
with me with the words, I feelI'm going to pay really close
attention, because I'm about tolearn something important.
I'm about to learn that there'ssomething I did that hurt you
and, man, I don't want to dothat.
I want to be the perfecthusband, and if I got it wrong,
I want to know about it, and soI mean.
The reason it works is becauseit comes from this basic premise
(27:08):
that I really love you, I don'twant to ever hurt you and if
I'm doing something that hurtsyou, and if you can tell me
about that while treating mewith respect, not making me feel
like a failure, letting me knowI'm loved and I'm the most
important thing in your worldand I'm not lonely or abandoned.
I'm going to listen to that allday long because I really want
to get good at this job of beinga husband and you're going to
(27:30):
give me some really importantfeedback.
I need to pay attention.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
So good, the three-step formula.
Right there, folks, the I feelstatement, and I will say
because we have been using thisfor probably 18 years of our
marriage, I think two years intoour marriage, we're on a
marriage retreat and learnedthis and swore to use it.
And when we do use it, the partthat I noticed, doug, is that
(27:54):
when I'm searching for the labelfor my emotions because I want
to be as specific as possible,not just pick the top two I'm
elated or I'm angry, but I tryto get.
What am I really feeling?
You know, and when I'm in thatprocess of trying to discern my
feelings and the label I'm goingto put on it, my whole body
(28:17):
calms down Physiologically.
I can't keep up that, you know.
Internal energy when my mind istrying to focus on something,
so I love that part of this toothat it's a natural benefit, you
know.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
It is, yeah, absolutely.
And you know a lot of couplesor a lot of individuals guys, I
think, more, more than womensometimes but they have a hard
time labeling their emotion.
They're like I just know I'mupset, but I don't really know,
right?
So I just go online and justgoogle emotion wheel and you'll
come up with a hundred differentemotions.
We'll print one off and then gothrough and say, oh, there's
(28:52):
the one I'm feeling.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
So, um, but it's really important to be able to
be in touch with how you'refeeling and the hard thing, the
important thing, is to be ableto make the ask, to be able to
ask your spouse to do somethingdifferent, and a lot of times
people are afraid to do thatbecause they're afraid it'll end
up in a fight or an argument orsomething, and I think you got
to give each other permissionand say no.
If you need something, ask, askme and I.
(29:14):
You know, I'm sure you've seenit too, but a lot of couples I
work with the husband's like Iwill do anything for it.
I just need to know what it is.
I can't figure it out Right andthe wife's like I shouldn't have
to tell you I shouldn't have.
And it's like, well, listen,you married a guy.
We're a little bit thick headedright, we don't get it all the
time.
Do us a favor and tell us whatyou need and we'll.
(29:36):
We'll go over burning coals toget it for you, but we got to
know what it is.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
That's right and that's part of being a great
helpmate.
You know I tell women that allthe time.
Help him out he wants tosucceed, he wants more than
anything to please you.
And so you give him what heneeds right.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Throw him a biscuit, right that's right.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
It's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yeah, it really is.
It really is and I don't knowwhy we hesitate to do it, but we
do, and I guess maybe becausewe're afraid it'll turn into a
fight.
But if you've made the pledgethat we're not going to hop on
those four horses and if wepromise each other that, if
you've made the pledge thatwe're not going to hop on those
four horses, and if we, if wepromise each other that, if you
start off with the words, I feelI'm going to pay attention
because I want to know thisinformation it, it actually
(30:24):
works.
It really works and it doesn'ttake long.
I mean couples, couples whohave had, who have spent very
little time, and I tell themwhen I start working with them,
like, your job is to fire me and, as quickly as possible, be
done with me and move on.
And the couples who can get ridof me pretty quickly are the
ones who adopt the formulaquickly and implement it into
(30:45):
their life.
They're like man, we use it two, three, four times a day and it
really works.
And pretty soon you startrunning out of things because
I'm fixing this stuff.
Right, yes, and the deal it isum, rarely, you know, I nine
times out of 10, 99 times out ofa hundred, when we do something
that hurts our spouse, it's notintentional, right?
(31:05):
Right, you don't wake up in themorning thinking how can I
irritate my husband today?
Oh, I think I'll do that beforebreakfast.
You know, it's not what we do,right, but we're flawed and we
get it wrong and we getdistracted and we're just.
You know, we've got a millionthings in the air and we just
don't stop to think about whateach other needs.
And so if I realize that I'mjust not going to get it right a
(31:27):
lot and I need some intel tohelp me focus better, then it
works.
It really does.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
You know I want to bring something up, it just came
to my mind.
I think one of the experiencesI've had with couples is that
when someone is sharing, they'restarting to try this right.
Okay, now I'm going to tell youhow I feel when you do this
certain thing, and here's what Iwant you would like to you to
do different.
(31:54):
What they're met with fromtheir spouse is like a denial
that you could possibly feelthat way because of their
behavior.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Right.
So it's just like yeah, yeah,anxious.
Why would you be anxious that Iwas an hour late?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah, so it's just like yeah, anxious, why would?
You be anxious that I was anhour late.
Yeah, and it's just arguingwith the reality that the person
is trying to express.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, absolutely right, and listen right, and
part of it is just theappreciation that you're
entitled to your emotion and itis right.
So.
So when I say, well, youshouldn't feel like that, Well,
we call that defensiveness andwe call it criticism, like
there's something wrong with youfor worrying about me if I'm an
early, no, there's nothingwrong with me for worrying about
(32:40):
that.
And you need to appreciate thefact that I love you and I've
got this expectation of tellingyou to be on when you're not
there.
I, you know, I'm afraid you'rein a car accident or something.
Time you're gonna be, oh,you're not there.
I, you know, I'm afraid you'rein a car accident or something.
So it's the they just to beable to validate each other's
emotions and say, yeah, I Imight not have felt the same way
in a similar circumstance, butthat doesn't invalidate your
(33:01):
feeling as being legitimate andsomething I need to take into
consideration and I need toaddress.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, that's a great point yes, you're really having
to get outside of yourself andtune into your spouse and, like
you said, if that's not yourexperience or you don't worry if
somebody's late, that's okay,but you're setting yourself on
the shelf to tune into what itis your spouse needs, and
without judgment.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Yes, especially without judgment.
And you know, thank goodnesswe're so different.
I mean, if we both had the sameemotions and the same reactions
, that would be pretty boring.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
So boring.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, so it's boring.
So the fact that, yeah, and tobe able to just affirm each
other that you know what I getit and I'm sorry you're worried
and I don't want you to worryabout me and I'll get better.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yes, thank you for giving me a tip on how I could
change that, and I'm going totry it next time.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Exactly right.
Exactly right, and that's somuch.
And so I really my greatestenjoyment is working with
couples that are not yet married, you know, engaged or seriously
dating.
Because if you know, if you cantake these tools and start them
day one man you're going to.
You know a lot of that,especially that first year
adjustment stuff.
You know where you fuss andfight, getting used to living
(34:12):
with another person and all thatstuff.
It's going to be a lot smootherbecause, because the love is
still so intense and sopassionate that you know you
want to just be perfect andeverything, and then you'll
learn how to be pretty doggone,good, pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yes, that this should be part of.
Like every marriage prep courseis going through the three-step
formula learning about the fourhorsemen and just really
understanding it on a deep level.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, and that's why I put a marriage discernment
course out on my website,happymarriageforlifecom, for
couples to go through it and getthat training.
There's some parishes here inthe Chicago area that require
their couples to go through myworkshop and there's a few other
parishes that have me come outand talk to their couples during
the pre-K to say but that's asmall pool, you know, it's like
(34:57):
it's now on the radio station.
Maybe I can get these ideas outcoast to coast, which would be
even better.
So you know we're all trying to, in our own little way, help
people navigate life a littlemore confidently, with a little
less stress and angst.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yes, thank you for that.
So is this like a self-guidedcourse on your website that
people can purchase and watch?
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Correct it is.
And so I think, on the MarriageDiscernment Workshop, I think
I've got like 17 modules.
Each module I talk for justfive or 10 minutes, very brief,
and then there's a worksheet tofill out to kind of reinforce
that concept or have animportant conversation they need
to have and especially in amarriage discernment.
(35:42):
I'm aware of at least threecouples who went through it and
then broke up afterward and I'mlike that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
It is so.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I was giving a talk.
Yeah, I was giving a talk at aparish in North side of Chicago
and I walked in one night andthis young lady came up to me
and said I really want to thankyou.
I said you're very welcome.
Have we ever met?
She said no, no, but myboyfriend and I did your
marriage discernment course andwe broke up shortly afterward
and that's the greatest thing.
I'm very happy we did that.
I said now I've met a new boyand we're going to do your
(36:13):
marriage discernment course too.
I said well, let me know howthat works out and I'm happy to
report they're now married anddoing great.
So you know, but she dodged abig bullet with the first guy
and then found the right guy.
So the good thing about thecourse is it helps you discern
whether or not this marriagemakes sense.
And if you say yeah, it does,you have a higher confidence
level that, okay, we've had somereally important conversations,
(36:35):
we've really taken a good lookat each other and, yeah, this
thing's got a really highprobability of success.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
So good, happymarriageforlifecom.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
That's my personal website, right.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I tell you what I'm going to be sending it to my son
.
He's 18 and a half.
He just moved out.
He hasn't started really datingyet, but, man, I'm excited for
these types of resources and Ithink the younger generation is
actually very hungry for this.
They're saying like we'rewilling to get some education
and some training around this.
This is like we're used to this, you know coaching and things
like that.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
It's.
The dating world out thereright now is so, so tough and
I've got kids in the datingworld right now and it's tough.
Man, it is not easy and ourculture and society has just
really deformed so many youngpeople that it's a tough, tough
deal.
They need all the help they canget.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
All the tools we can get for sure.
Well, one of the things thatstruck me about one of the
episodes that you did recentlythat I related to keeping the
love alive in your marriage isjust this idea Talk about this,
how you challenge couples to dojust like invest like 1% into
(37:47):
your marriage every day.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.
And so I talk about there'sthree legs to a good marriage,
to the stool for a good marriage.
One is conflict management,others keeping the love alive,
and then third is forgiveness.
You're going to practiceforgiveness probably every day,
every day Several times.
Yeah, right, exactly, andnormally it's little things like
okay, I forgot to pick up themilk on the way home from work,
(38:10):
okay, but sometimes it's affairsor it's, you know, an alcohol
dependency problem.
Sometimes it's big stuff, yes,you know, and it gets a little
bit harder.
So, anyway.
So, but the keeping the lovealive part, yeah, so this is
based on CS Lewis's book, theFour Loves.
He based his book on thewritings of some guy named
Aristotle, so any idea that'sbeen around.
(38:33):
He knew a little bit aboutvirtue.
As best I could tell, he livedabout 2,500 years ago.
So if an idea hangs around2,500 years, it's probably
pretty good.
So Four Loves.
First is philia, which is thelove of friendship.
Right, and so friendship.
It's two parts to friendship.
One is we have a lot of thingsin common.
We actually enjoy spending timewith each other.
We like bicycling or hiking orcamping or cooking, and we just
(38:55):
have a lot.
Not everything.
You have to have your owninterests too, but the more you
have in common, the better.
That's the first part.
Second part of friendship is youknow, if I asked you who your
best friend was, you'd give mesomebody's name and I You'd give
me somebody's name and I'd say,okay, how do you know that
person's your best friend?
And you'd say, well, I can tellthat person anything.
I mean, I can confide in themmy deepest, darkest secrets, my
(39:17):
fears.
When I'm having a down day,they pick me up.
When I'm having a good day,they share in my joy and my
excitement.
That's another way of justsaying that they are emotionally
safe.
My heart is safe with thatperson.
That's why they're my bestfriend.
Well, that needs to be theperson you're married to.
That needs to be the safestperson in the world.
And when you're having a badday, that needs to be the person
(39:39):
that you turn to.
And that's the deep friendshipthat my heart is safe with you.
And the way I talk about it is,you know, you put your arms out
in front of you, form a circle,that you know.
I don't know what happened allday today in your day, but now
you're home and you're insidethe circle and now nothing bad's
going to happen to you nowbecause I got you right.
(40:01):
Yeah, that's friendship, okay.
Number two is a storge, whichis I just kind of talk about in
terms of gentle kindness.
Right, this is please and thankyou.
This is I'm going to just loveon you, I'm going to take good
care of you.
Your heart is safe.
I'm going to you, know, opencar doors for you and I'm going
to say please, thank you, I'mgoing to cook for you, I'm going
to take care of you when you'resick.
(40:21):
I'm just going to go out of myway to do really good, nice
things.
This is affirming and praising,and this is where I think you
know this.
I'll come to that.
Remind me to not to forget the1%, which was your actual
question.
I've taken a long time to getthere, so, but that's affirming
and praising and thanking andshowing appreciation.
And then number three is eros,which is physical love.
(40:43):
Right, that needs to be inplace.
It needs to be in the rightorder within marriage.
If you get that cart ahead ofthe horse, it doesn't end well
for a lot of reasons.
But the physical embrace, themarital embrace with a husband
and wife, really, reallyimportant.
Of the four loves.
That's the only love that isexclusive between the two of you
, that you share only with eachother and with no one else, and
(41:06):
it's really important that thatworks well.
The key for that working well,especially with newlyweds, is to
be able to talk about it.
You know after the fact whatwas good, what wasn't good.
You know you have to be able tohave a conversation about it.
It's a difficult thing.
It can be kind of bashful andawkward, but the couples who can
actually talk about it likeanything else, then you can make
the ask Well, I'd like to dothis, I would like that, I
(41:31):
didn't like this.
And the last is agape love,which is this sacrificial,
unconditional love.
I am in it forever.
Okay, and I'm not leaving, andthere's absolutely nothing you
can do that will make me leave.
And this is the love we pledgeon our wedding day, right?
Good times and bad health andsickness, et cetera, et cetera.
And I think I'm probably theonly man in the United States
who has my own love songplaylist on Spotify.
(41:51):
But I just I love love songsand so my kids will send me love
songs.
And they sent me one.
I don't even remember theartist, it was a country song,
but the refrain is it's a guysinging to his wife.
He says I come with a strongback and a lifetime warranty.
Bada bing, there you go, I loveit.
Right, that's agape love.
(42:12):
I'm going to work really hardat this marriage and at being
the best husband I can, and I'mguaranteed for life.
So I think that's pretty cool,all right.
So those are the four loves.
And when I'm working withcouples preparing for marriage,
I say listen, you've got toscore this thing out at an 80%
tile or higher, and I don't havea checklist or anything.
But if one of those four thingsis missing, if one of those
(42:34):
four things is a low level, donot get married.
It's not going to work.
And I've worked with a couplecouples who they probably met on
my Catholic match and theirfaith is really important to
them.
I mean maybe daily massrosaries.
They're leading a really goodCatholic life, and so the Storge
love.
(42:54):
They're very kind to each other, they know how to treat each
other really well, respectfully,and they're very polite Eros.
They find each other veryattractive.
There's a good physicalconnection there, agape.
Of course, because of theirfaith they try and imitate
Christ.
They're very sacrificial intheir love and they're great at
that.
And they get married.
And then they find out we justdon't have much in common.
I mean, you're a really goodperson, I'm a really good person
(43:16):
, but we have very differentinterests and so the friendship
piece really isn't in place.
They're like, oh man, we don'thave anything in common and
we've got to stay married forthe next 50 or 60 years.
That's going to be hard, right?
So you've got to make sure allfour of those things are at a
very high level and if it's not,you've got to move on, all
right.
So, with that said, the 1%Right, I encourage couples to
(43:39):
make a 1% investment daily intheir marriage and they're all
kind of like 1%, I think I coulddo that.
That doesn't seem too tough.
Well, percent, I think I coulddo that, that doesn't seem too
tough.
Well, it's 15 minutes out ofthe day.
You know, 1% of 24 hours isabout 15 minutes.
And week after week they comeback and say we didn't do it.
We didn't do it.
We did it once, it was great,we never did it again.
(44:02):
Because it's hard, especially ifyou've got kids right to carve
out the time.
But even newlyweds and emptynesters find a hard time carving
out time.
But marriage is like a garden,you know.
You can plant your tomatoes inthe spring, come back in the
fall and have some tomatoes, oryou can go out every day, pull
out a couple of weeds, water alittle bit, you know, and you're
going to have a great crop oftomatoes in the fall, right?
(44:24):
So you've got to invest in yourmarriage every single day and
to make that commitment thatsays okay, we're going to carve
out 10 or 15 minutes every day.
Just the two of us, no screens,nothing in the way, just the two
of us, where we are going tolove each other, affirm each
other, compliment each other,talk about what we're thankful
for.
It's your opportunity to tellme what went wrong in your day
(44:45):
and I can.
Then I can say man, you're agreat person, thank you so much
for putting up with all thatstuff.
I love you Right, and that'sthe time because I.
But if you don't get itscheduled and you go, well you
know we'll find some time.
It doesn't happen.
You got to be intentional aboutit, as you'd like to say, and I
agree with that a hundredpercent.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Yes, that's it 1% investment in our marriage every
(45:32):
day.
Great if you can get more, butstart there 15 minutes a day.
I love that you say your nameand then we ask you what you
need and then, if it's somethingyou need right away, we'll
oblige.
Otherwise, we're in herebecause we are trying to pay
particular attention to oneanother, without distraction,
and that has saved us, doug, I'mtelling you 15 minutes, even
just for a conversation.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Oh, my goodness, yeah for sure.
Well, right, exactly.
And I think your husband showsgreat wisdom there.
And I think here's the deal,the, the, the bedroom is the
sanctuary of the home, right?
Nothing but love and goodthings happen in that bedroom.
So I encourage, because youknow we tend to hang emotions on
the physical objects around theroom.
So if you get in a lot ofarguments in the bedroom and
(46:09):
then you know, and all of asudden it's like you know the
knickknacks and the paintings onthe walls and all of a sudden
it's like those bring upnegative emotions when you walk
in the room.
So never, under any condition,do you fight or argue in the
bedroom.
You know, if you're going tobed and you're starting to get
into a fight, get out of bed andgo to the garage, right, all by
(46:30):
garage, right, all by itself.
That'll probably end the fight,because you're like, yeah, I
ain't getting out of bed, so youwin that.
Yeah, no, no, you win, I loveyou.
Good night, right, so, but yougot to protect the bedroom.
That is the for the couple,that's the sanctuary, and you're
right.
And so the kids only get in byinvitation and we don't cover
any difficult things in thebedroom.
That's the one room that's offlimits to any kind of arguing,
fussing, fighting at fighting atall.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
Man, now that you say that, that is where I feel like
that's where the enemy willstir things up.
Oh my, yeah, yeah, yeah, rarelyis it in the kitchen or, like
you said, in the garage or thebackyard.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
It's like in that bedroom there's something that's
like yeah, well, right, and youknow you mentioned the enemy
and we haven't really talkedabout satan's involvement in in
destroying marriages.
But, um, his number one attackagainst marriage is to get you
to focus on your spouse'sdefects.
That's the number one thing.
And if he can get you focusedbecause we all got them, so it's
(47:28):
not hard, or it's like you'repretty aware of what your
spouse's defects are and if hecan get you focused because we
all got them, so it's not hard.
You're pretty aware of whatyour spouse's defects are.
And if he can get you to focuson those, man, that can drive a
wedge between the two of you andthe disarming.
Which is why the 1% investmentis so important, because I'm
concentrating on your virtuesnow and I'm telling you what I
love about you and I'm tellingyou what a great mother you are
and what a great husband you are, and so that you know you
(47:50):
counter the negativity bybringing in a bunch of
positivity, and that's what youdo in that 1% investment.
And that really frustrates thedevil, because he wants you to
focus on the defects.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Ooh yes, he loves the horse of criticism and contempt
and stonewalling anddefensiveness.
He's like you ride those horses, they're great, they're going
to take you to great places andthen all of a sudden, you're
going no.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yeah, you're entitled , you're entitled.
Yeah, you should be treatedbetter.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Yes, important.
When we recognize that'shappening for us, that we've
been kind of hijacked, you know,by the enemy, that we just
rebuke that in the name of Jesus.
You know it's like, oh no, nottoday, satan, like you're not
going to get in the middle of mymarriage.
And I recognize you're here andI'm excusing you.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Right, yeah, right, right, get behind me.
Satan.
And you got to realize whatever.
Whenever that starts and youknow that space between the
emotion and your behaviorthere's something that happens
in there called thinking right.
And we start have I ever seenanything like this before, and
do I got to put a stop to thisnow, or what you know?
And I start thinking about it.
Well, satan can get in thereand influence that thinking, say
(48:57):
, oh sure, oh yeah, oh yeah, hedoesn't care about you because
he's late and he's who knowswhat.
He's probably got a girlfriend,he's, you know, and you're just
way off course.
And that's just Satan sittingback there throwing all those
ideas in your brain.
So you got to realize that andjust say okay, get behind me,
I'm not dealing with that.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
That's right.
That is right.
So good, doug.
This has just been wonderful.
You've given us so many goldennuggets.
There's so many opportunitiesfor our listeners to learn from
this, to listen to the episodeagain.
Please share it with people inyour circles, right?
Text it off to people.
Shoot our email out that hasthis podcast in it to other
(49:37):
people in your family, to yourspouse.
Make sure that your spousehears this.
You know, in our coaching, doug, I recommend that our couples
listen to you know two of thefour episodes per month that we
put out, based on the topic forthe month, and then discuss it
as a couple, and this is a newthing that they're getting into.
(49:58):
It's a little home date thatthey can do together pour a
glass of wine, you know, or makea treat and sit down and watch
the YouTube version of thispodcast or listen to the episode
and then have a fruitfulconversation.
How can we implement some ofthese things?
Speaker 2 (50:14):
in our marriage?
Yeah, exactly, exactly so I I.
I was up in Minnesota umSaturday giving a couple of
talks up there and I just askedfor a show of hands.
There was like there were like70, 80 couples at each one.
I just said give me a show ofhands.
Did any of you marry anunintelligent person?
Anybody here marry a dumbperson?
Nobody raised their hands.
(50:35):
I said okay, that means you'veall now publicly stated that you
married an intelligent person,and so if your spouse sees
something differently than youdo, you need to get curious
about it, because they're prettysmart and they're seeing a
different.
You're missing something, right.
And so, to have this spirit ofcuriosity, if we've got a
(50:56):
difference of opinion, and Ineed to get curious about how
you're seeing it differentlythan I am, I'm going to learn a
lot, right.
And so to be able to watch yourpodcast, I think, which is a
beautiful thing.
And then, with the spirit ofcuriosity, well, what did you
take away?
What did you hear?
Cause you're going to heardifferent things.
You're going to filter itthrough your own lens, your own
eyes, your own ears.
Well, how did you take thatpoint at this point?
(51:16):
And how can we do that, andwith a curious spirit, rather
than a judgmental spirit or adefensive spirit like cause.
You know, listen to any of yourpodcasts and you're going to
say, oh yeah, I'm not doing that, oh yeah, I could be better at
that.
Okay, good, well, let's not getdefensive.
Let's say, okay, it's an areafor me to work on and try to
improve on, and that's what I'mgoing to go do so the work
(51:36):
you're doing is unbelievablyvaluable, god bless you, you too
.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Thank you for getting on the airwaves.
Every day Folks call in to theMarriage Unhindered show on
Relevant Radio.
I love the play on words.
Your last name is Hinderer.
Marriage Unhindered.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
I didn't come up with that, the brain trust here did.
But yeah, it's on five o'clockcentral time, monday through
Friday, or through the app orthe website, you can catch it
anytime you want to.
Just hit the play button andplay it whenever you want to.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
So yeah, find the show on relevant radio and be
sure to check outhappymarriageforlifecom all the
good resources there.
Listen, doug, this has beensuch a pleasure.
Thank you so much for blessingour listeners and me yeah, yeah,
you're very welcome.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
J I thank you for the invitation to be here and and,
uh, keep up the good work thatyou're doing.
It's so important out there,and God bless.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Thank you, god bless you and I hope to meet you in
person sometime.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
That would be wonderful, I would like that.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Awesome.
Well, parents, listen, I'mgoing to catch you on another
episode of our show real soon.
Invest 1% into your marriagetoday.
15 minutes of goodness withyour spouse.
Pour on the love, pour on thegratitude, compliment them, give
them a good embrace, look themin the eye.
This is the beginning ofreconnecting your marriage and
(53:07):
really helping to keep the lovealive.
So we'll catch you on anothershow real soon.
Thanks so much for tuning in.
Hey there, welcome back parents.
Listen, I am super excited tointroduce our guest today who's
going to be talking abouthandling conflict in marriage
and how to keep love alive.
When you are, you know raisingkids and changing diapers and
doing dishes and making dinnerright.
(00:22):
So it's really exciting to meto have someone else on the show
who has been married a goodchunk of time 44 years.
He's been married to hisamazing wife, shirley.
They've raised nine childrenand are welcoming soon to be 10
(00:42):
grandchildren.
He's also a licensed marriageand family therapist.
So between the personalexperience of being married and
raising a family and theprofessional experience of
working with married couples ina therapy setting, this is just
going to knock your socks off.
So the other really cool thingI want to say up front is that
(01:08):
our guest has a daily call-inshow on the radio on relevant
radio called Marriage Unhindered.
So you can actually call infrom your phone and ask a
question and he will give youlive support.
Ask a question and he will giveyou live support, live feedback
(01:29):
, and then others can learn fromwhatever it was that you were
curious about.
So, without further ado,welcome to the show, doug
Hinderer.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Jordan, it is a great pleasure to be with you.
Thanks so much.
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yes, this is awesome and you have a book coming out.
You have a book that is comingout on Love Day, on Valentine's
Day, st Valentine's RekindledHearts A Spiritual Journey to
Marital Healing.
Is this your first book, doug?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Oh, yes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I you know what it is sofar, out of any self-image I've
got of who I am, that I'mactually an author and a
published author.
It's just crazy.
And my oldest daughter, katie,is a journalist and she does a
lot of great work.
And she grabbed me one day andsaid, dad, you need to write a
book.
And I'm like, yeah, right afterI learned how to fly without an
(02:18):
airplane.
And she said you know, youspent a lot of money on my
education, I can help you withthat.
And so she rented an Airbnb fora week and we got together, we
spent a week crafting this thingout and flip chart paper on the
walls and all that kind ofstuff, and off we went and the
book ended up very differentfrom what I had in mind, but I'm
(02:42):
pretty happy with it.
Well, I don't know if anybodywill buy it, but I'm pretty
happy with it.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, I don't know if anybody will buy it, but I'm
pretty happy with it hey, we'regonna make sure that there's a
link in our show notes to beable to pre-order it.
And then, of course, afterfebruary 14th, you can just
order that right from scepterpublishers and, uh, get you a
copy.
I'm excited to get my own copy,so, let's, let's dive in here.
I mean, you've you've counseledcouples for years married
(03:05):
couples in a counseling settingand one of the things I loved
about your bio is that it saysthat your approach is rooted in
the belief that every marriage,no matter how strained, can be
revitalized with commitment,mutual respect and the right
tools.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know what, as atherapist, I mean I have to
believe that, right, I have tobelieve, but I do.
I don't believe it just becauseI have to, but it's true.
And I've seen miracles, youknow, and I've seen marriages
that have crashed and burned.
And I've had couples that I'veworked with where they walk into
a store and, man, you don't,you don't have a chance, this is
(03:47):
not going to work, and they,they pull together and other
couples are probably like, man,this is, yeah, we'll get this
figured out, and they end updivorcing.
So it I've, I've seen miracles.
Miracles happen.
Sometimes it takes miracles,but if both parties are willing,
then it works.
And if one of them says, yeah,I'm not doing this, well, you
know, it only takes one to ruina marriage.
(04:08):
It takes two to make it work.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yes, it takes two to make it work, that is for sure.
And it's a hard road.
You've been married 44 years.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, I was talking tomy wife today and we're trying
to figure out what I should dofor Valentine's Day, and I think
I suggested that I have her on,and that's way out of her
comfort zone and she's like Idon't think, I want to do that,
but we started this.
Well, what do you want to talkabout?
And going through it, it's likeyou know, when you go back and
look, you actually seriouslythink about 44 years.
(04:40):
I mean, there were some lowspots, you know, and there were
some great high spots.
But, man, there were a couplespots where, man, we were
skinning off our knees, you know, we just weren't doing well at
all, and um, and we pulled ittogether without any help.
We didn't go to counseling andwe were doing the best we could
and it was as interesting as Iwas this is my second career, so
(05:01):
I've been doing this for abouteight years and and um, so I'm
back in school, I'm learning alot of this stuff and I'm
bringing it home and talking tomy wife about it and she's like,
man, do you know how manyfights we wouldn't have had over
the last 30 plus years If we'dhave known this?
I'm like a lot you know so andand that's so.
That's kind of my deal is.
Um is just kind of education.
(05:21):
There's great science out thereabout what works and what
doesn't work in a marriage and Ijust want to get the message
out.
So I've got a website whereI've got a couple workshops one
for engaged couples or seriouslydating couples thinking about
getting engaged, to help themget off to a right start and
really figure out is this theperson I should be marrying.
And then I got one I calledMarriage Tune-Up for couples who
(05:41):
just want to tune it up andjust keep working at it.
As you say, it's a daily effortyou got to do.
You got to be intentional aboutbuilding the marriage and I
just want to get the message out.
And now I'm on the radio, whichagain was something I never
thought would.
I never wanted to do it.
I was just, I just came out ofnowhere.
But now I get a chance to getthe message out to even larger
(06:02):
audiences.
And, as you do with the podcast, education is so important to
help people get off to a goodstart and realize that you know
there are solutions to whateverit is that's going wrong.
There's ways to work on it.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yes, well, thank you for your obedience to this call,
because I think it takes thatright.
Like hey, we didn't start outthinking this is we were going
to be on the airwaves, but thisis just sort of where God led us
.
And when you say yes, beautifulthings happen and you're able
to spread the message.
And I love the idea thatcouples counseling is expensive.
(06:35):
I've been a counselor for 20years, $150 an hour, $200 for a
couple session.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
But look at this this is free session.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
But look at this this is free.
You got a daily show onRelevant Radio that is free,
that you can tune into from yourcar, from your computer, from,
you know, on a walk.
Same thing with these podcasts.
It's such a beautiful time forpeople to be able to access this
education and these tools freeof charge?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, for sure.
And I will say it's a veryhumbling thing that somehow God
tapped me on the shoulder andsaid son, I'm putting you on the
radio.
I'm like I don't want to dothis at all.
God's like, well, too bad.
Son, you're going, and yes, andon the Relevant Radio app.
If you download the app or goto the website, you can get
access to all the past shows.
(07:19):
Yes, and so a lot of times, youknow, the average person, I
guess, listens to AM radio likeeight or ten minutes at a time
because they're in and out ofthe car and they're cooking or
chasing children or whateverthey're doing, and so, but a lot
of times these shows it will,it will, you know, pick your
interest and you'll be like, oh,that's really cool, but I got
(07:41):
to go pick my kid up from schoolso you can come back to it
later and pick up where you leftoff.
And a lot of folks find a lotof value in that.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yes, I was driving in the car yesterday to get my
kids from school and tuned intoone of the most recent episodes
and you had a couple of callersfrom California and I just
really appreciate your candidpersonality and the practical
advice you give and just thetender compassion that you offer
the callers, so you do a greatjob.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
It.
Um, it takes.
It takes a lot of courage tocall into the show.
You know, cause now, now you'reout there and I get I get a lot
of emails from people too, orkind of like you know what I
wanted to call in, but I wasafraid my neighbors would be
listening or my husband would belistening or something, and so
I send in an email and I'll readthose on the air anonymously
and talk about it too.
So but it's, yeah, it's, I'mactually having a lot of fun
(08:34):
doing this and I didn't think Iwould.
I'm like, oh man, but itactually I kind of enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
That's great.
Well, give us jump right in.
You know, when you talk abouthandling conflict in marriage,
what are some of the tips thatyou have for our listeners.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, I think first is just the appreciation that
your marriage is going to haveconflict.
You can't avoid it, right, andyou know we have original sin,
right.
So we come into the world withdefects, and you know, and we
have our own temperament and wehave our own personality and we
have our own interests and thosethings are going to come into
conflict from time to time.
And the research out there thismight be a little, I don't know
(09:14):
, depressing, but it literallysays that 40% or 70% of our
conflicts you're not going tosolve, they're just hardwired.
You're not going to fix them.
30% you can fix.
Well, how do you know if thisconflict is in the 30% or the 70
?
Well, you try to fix it.
If you get it fixed, great.
And if you don't, you don't.
And that's where our faith, Ithink, comes in so valuably.
(09:37):
Is that 70% that I'm not goingto solve?
That now is going to bedifficult for me, right, and now
I have to unite this cross,this suffering, with our Lord,
and together I can take thesethings that kind of irritate me,
that aren't going to change,and sanctify my life, sanctify
my marriage, sanctify my spousethrough these, you know, these
things that are just going toirritate me forever, you know.
(09:59):
And so that's good, and that'swhy our faith is so critical,
because it I mean the thing ofit is we can sanctify suffering,
and that's kind of a radicalthought and certainly a thought
that's contrary to currentculture.
You know, I shouldn't have tosuffer anything, right?
We're like, well, no, you'regoing to suffer in a marriage.
I don't care who you married.
You married somebody withdefects.
(10:19):
And you know, as my wife says,the challenge of marriage is you
got two imperfect people whoare trying to love perfectly,
and it's not going to happen.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So true, so true.
We just had Father NathanCromley on our show and he wrote
a book, coached by St Paul theApostle.
And one of the main points hemade in there is that in
marriage or in life in general,he references St Paul and he
says you know, our trouble isn'tthe trouble, Our trouble is
(10:53):
having trouble with havingtrouble.
Yeah, I agree If you expect yourmarriage is not going to have
lumps and bumps and sideways,turns and detours.
That's where you're going tosuffer the most.
So I love that you just give usthe stats and say, listen, 70%
of this stuff you're not goingto be able to solve, and it's
(11:14):
natural.
It's normal.
This is part of two imperfecthumans being united.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Right.
And it doesn't mean you've gota bad marriage just because you
lock horns sometimes, and itjust I, you know, listen, I, I'm
a morning person.
6am is the best hour of the dayfor me.
My wife's a night owl.
I mean she could stay up tillmidnight, one, two in the
morning working on projects andshe's perfectly happy, right.
Well, over the years thatresolves in conflicts, right.
I mean, you know, I want to getup on Sunday morning and go to
(11:39):
730 mass.
She's like I think you know 10would be good, right.
And so you work these thingsout over time, but she's never
going to become a morning person, I'm never going to become a
night owl.
And so you learn to adjust andcompromise and meet in the
middle.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
So all right, so, anyway.
So first is just the the umacknowledgement that we are
going to have conflict.
All right, good, all right.
And then I talk aboutpredominant needs and fears, and
those tend to be what tripspeople up the most, right?
So the idea is behaviorstrigger emotions and then
emotions trigger behaviors whichtrigger emotions, and off we go
(12:18):
right.
So husband does something,triggers an emotion in the wife.
That emotion.
Think about emotion as thatthing that energizes movement.
Right, so you've triggered anemotion in the wife.
That emotion.
Think about emotion as thatthing that energizes movement.
Right, so you've triggered anemotion.
Now that's going to energize meto say or do something which
will, as the wife that triggersan emotion in the husband,
energizes him to say or dosomething back to her, and off
we go right.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And so you understand your pattern.
So when I start working withcouples, we we spend a lot of
time looking at what yourpattern looks like.
You know what are you doingbehaviorally or verbally that's
triggering negative emotions inyour spouse.
And if we can figure that out,we start changing some behaviors
, or change how which emotionsget triggered, we can start
improving the whole, the whole,the marriage.
(13:01):
So then we talk about needs andfears right, and we have a lot
of needs, a lot of fears, but aman's predominant need is to be
respected and a woman'spredominant need is to be loved.
Now, it doesn't mean men don'twant to be loved and women don't
want to be respected, but itdoes mean if you disrespect me,
I'm going to get triggeredpretty quickly.
And if I do something, as yourhusband, that's unloving, that
(13:24):
leaves you feeling unloved,you're going to be triggered
pretty quickly as well.
Right?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
And then the predominant fear in a man is
failure we hate failure morethan anything and in a woman
it's abandonment, it'sloneliness, being pushed aside.
I really don't need you beingignored in a marriage, right.
And so if you're pointingthings out that I'm doing wrong,
I'm feeling criticized, I'mfeeling like a failure man.
(13:50):
I'm going to have a hard timewith that.
Right.
And if I'm treating you likeyou're not important, that
you're just, you know, you'rejust kind of around, but I'm not
really involving you in what'sgoing on.
I'm not asking your opinionabout things, I'm just well,
you're going to be reallytriggered by that.
So we started looking at what'sgetting triggered in the
marriage, right.
Is the husband feeling like afailure or disrespected?
(14:11):
Is the wife feeling unloved andfeeling lonely in the marriage?
And how do we address thoseissues too, right?
So that's how we get startedanyway.
When I first start working witha couple and then we go on from
there, does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
It makes so much sense and I love to boil it down
to that.
Because men and women aredifferent, right we?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
were created.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yes, we were created to compliment one another and we
do that beautifully if weunderstand the primary needs of
our spouse right.
And so I love that you say.
You know, men, primary need isrespect.
Primary fear is failure.
Women, primary need is to beloved and our primary fear is
loneliness, or that fear ofabandonment.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
I think there's a scriptural basis for that right
St Paul's letter to theEphesians, fifth chapter
husbands love your wives, wivesrespect your husbands.
Well, you know, here we are2000 years later and we have
research that says St Paul wasright.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Imagine this Duh, right, he's St Paul.
But I think, if you go back toGenesis, right, adam, one of
Adam's sins, before he even atethe apple, was he failed to
protect his wife.
I mean, she's in danger, theserpent is in the garden and he
didn't protect her.
And I saw.
I think that I'm not atheologian, but I think when us
men inherit original sin, partof what we inherit is this fear
of failure, because it wasAdam's failure that kind of got
(15:34):
the whole table set Right.
And then I mean, why did Godcreate Eve to begin with?
Right, I mean, he looked atAdam and said not good for him
to be alone.
Right, he needs a help, heneeds a helpmate.
Well, he could have createdanother guy who would help him
plow a field, build a barn,watch football on Sundays, but
he didn't.
He created a woman radicallydifferent whose job description
(15:56):
is go help the boy.
He needs help.
He can't do this, he needs yourhelp.
And so when we push our wivesaside and we don't involve them,
what's going on, man, that goesright to your job description,
your basic, fundamental, corething I'm here to help you, to
partner with you, to get throughlife.
And when we don't allow ourwives to do that.
That's a tough thing andresearch out there by John
(16:23):
Gottman says that happymarriages are when both husband
and wife accept influence fromeach other.
Especially predictive of happymarriages is when the husband
accepts influence from the wife,goes right back to the Garden
of Eden, go influence the boy,help him.
He needs help.
And when we allow our wives todo that, things work very well
because that's how God set it up.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yes, oh.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
That's that complementarity.
It's where you're workingtogether as one.
The two become as one.
Not because you're both doingthe same thing, but you're both
working out of your gifting forthe other.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, yeah, exactly Exactly, and so I've got special
gifts and talents that God hasgiven me, as do you, and when we
put that together, it works.
God actually knew what he wasdoing, right.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Imagine that.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Imagine that.
So, anyway, so we do that, thenwe spend time talking about.
There are four things thatreally are at the core of
everything, of all thedisharmony in a marriage.
Just four, which is pretty cool, like you don't have to
remember 72 things.
Just four, right?
The challenge in that is theaverage man can only hold three
(17:32):
ideas in his brain at once, sothe man still had a disadvantage
here.
And this is research by JohnGottman, who's kind of the
leading researcher I'm sureyou're very familiar with him
what marriage is all about.
So he said these four behaviors.
First is criticism, where I keeppointing out what's wrong with
you, kind of like it's my job tofix you.
I'm going to point outeverything you're doing wrong,
(17:53):
right?
Well, the problem withcriticism is, if the wife is
leveling to criticism, thehusband's feeling like a failure
.
I mean, every time you talk tome, you tell me what I'm doing
wrong.
Well, that's kind of triggering.
If the husband is highlycritical, well, the wife's not
feeling too loved, right?
If every time you talk to me,it's not a loving conversation,
it's a judgmental conversation,I'm not, I'm not liking that a
(18:14):
whole lot, right?
So criticism doesn't work.
The next one is contempt.
I think of contempt asmean-spirited criticism.
So this is name-calling,devaluing sarcasm.
This is put down.
It is the most predictive ofdivorce because it's the most
hurtful, it's the mostintentional I'm intentionally
(18:35):
going to hurt you now becauseI'm mad and I'm going to let you
have it Right and so that'sreally damaging.
So this mean spiritedconversation is very damaging.
Number three is stonewalling.
So I just shut down and walkaway.
You know I'm not having thisfight anymore and I'm done and I
walk away.
Well, if the husband walks away, it kind of leaves the wife
(18:55):
feeling a little abandoned,right, yeah.
And if the wife walks away, itleaves the husband feeling kind
of disrespected.
You know, you just turn yourback on me and you walk away.
It's not too respectful.
And the research is kind ofinteresting that once your heart
rate gets to about 100 beatsper minute, you've lost your
ability to be rational.
You're now in fight or flightmode, right?
(19:21):
Well, I don't want to get in abig fight, so I'm just going to
get out of here, I'm going to goaway.
Well, that leaves the wifeabandoned, and I was, so that
really doesn't work either.
Um and the, um, the, uh, the,the.
The technique I talk about isyou've got to be able to call a
timeout Once you feel yourselfelevating, getting escalated.
You got to call a timeoutbecause you're just going to
drop into contempt and that'sjust going to make it worse.
(19:41):
But the important part of thetimeout is you've got to say
when you're coming back.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Always.
Yes, that's the main thing.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
I need a break.
I'll be back in an hour, okayfine, or I'm too upset.
We're not going to figure thisout tonight.
Can we pick it up tomorrow orwhatever it is, or let's wait
till the weekend.
We have more time.
But you've got to be able toand you know, and then the
husband's feeling respected andthe wife's not feeling abandoned
, so, but you've got to talkabout when we just we fight and
argue and back forth back forth,until we just run out of energy
(20:15):
and we quit.
But you don't ever solveanything Right, so it never gets
solved.
Well, you got to come back whenyou can calm down and then you
got a better chance of gettingit solved.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
And then the last one is defensiveness.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
That's not my fault, it's your fault.
Okay, um and uh.
Obviously I can't fix theproblem if I don't own my share
of it.
And so the problem is, you know, when couples come in for
therapy, for counseling, they're, they're pointing their finger
at each other, right and right.
And you know, and the husband's, like you know, doug, my wife's
(20:48):
a lot of control man, if youcan just reel her in, I'll be
fine.
And the wife's, like Doug, I'mmarried to an idiot.
If you can fix him, everythingwill be good, right, and I get
it.
That's why you're showing up,right, because you're fussing
and fighting and you're reallyclear about what's wrong with
the person you're married to.
And that's okay for the firstfew sessions.
But at some point you got toturn that around and look in the
mirror and say, okay, this isthe person I've got to fix.
(21:09):
And what am I doing that'scontributing to the disharmony?
And which of those four horsesam I climbing?
Because we all kind of have afavorite horse right.
Oh, one of those kind of likeah, that's the one I go to right
when I'm upset, and I got tostart changing that.
And if both, if you get, youknow, both the husband and the
wife to say, okay, what do Ineed to do different, then it
(21:31):
works because they start makingchanges.
Um, but if one of them or bothof them kind of get stuck in
that no, the other guy needschanged and I'm not changing
until you change, you get youract together and then I'll you
know.
Well, then it's, then it maynot work.
That's the problem, right?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So you just talked about the four horsemen there
right Criticism, content,stonewalling and defensiveness.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Correct the four horsemen apocalypse.
And those are at the core ofjust about everything that goes
wrong in a marriage.
And so you know I spend timeworking with couples when we
identify which of those horseskeep showing up and I encourage
them to write that down, put iton the refrigerator and then
promise each other we are notgoing to let these bad boys in
our marriage ever again.
(22:11):
And I give you permission tocall me out if I climb on one of
those horses.
I give you permission to say,doug man, I'm feeling criticized
and I will reply I'm sorry, Idon't want to do that, let me
find another way to talk aboutthis.
And so if I give you permissionto call it out and if we both
swear, you know we're not goingto go there, we're not doing
(22:32):
that anymore, we're getting outof our marriage.
You can't.
It can take a while.
One of the things when I firststarted meeting with couples
that kind of surprised me wasthe number of couples I was
meeting who had been marriedlike a year or two, right, and
I'm like boy, how can it go sobad in a year or two that you
need therapy?
But what I found is they wereable to get it together really
quick because they didn't haveyears and decades of bad
(22:54):
patterns and they were able tosay oh man, now I know what I'm
doing wrong, oh, I can fix thatpretty quick.
But you get a couple that'sbeen married 20, 30 years man,
they've got that pattern ispretty entrenched of behaviors,
emotions, behaviors, emotions.
It's a lot harder for them toturn the ship.
So the moral story is get helpsooner rather than later.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yes, I'm kind of giggling over here because I've
got this vision of me ridingthis horse for 20 years and the
saddle's like real broken in.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
It feels real comfortable.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Right, right, and sometimes you're just so used to
, you know, responding in adefensive way or you've.
You know the criticism has justbeen a pattern and it can
become one of those that it'shard to get off the horse, you
know.
Push it aside and try somethingnew.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Well, yeah, exactly, and we tend to adopt the same
patterns.
Our parents had right, well,and our parents weren't weren't
perfect, they had flaws, so theway they handled conflict was
was flawed.
But that's the pattern, andeither we do the same thing or
we do the opposite, the exactopposite, right and um.
So it kind of gets passed downgenerationally.
And I think part of the thingthat gets me excited is I'm able
(24:08):
to get in the middle of thatgenerational pattern and say,
okay, it stops here with you,that generational pattern, and
say, okay, it stops here withyou.
You start doing it differentlyand then you can pass on the
better way of doing it to yourchildren and then we can spread
the right way to do it.
So that's kind of the excitingpart of doing this work.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
I love that and I think it's important to you know
, come to an understanding thatthere's these four types of of
conflict or behaviors you know,and that they have a name and if
we can identify what ourbehavior is.
Give it a name, then we cankind of tame it.
We say that all the time nameit to tame it right.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
What is this?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I love that this is the criticism horse, right?
Okay, then we know what it is.
Now we can do something aboutit.
So you give couples the toolsto overcome these four behaviors
.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
That's the idea, right, exactly right.
And so the tool that I use Icalled it, gottman talked about
it, he called it well, I call itgentle startup, he called it a
gentle conversation.
I think I also kind of call itthe formula, because there's
three parts to the formula andyou got to do it in, you know,
in the right way.
And so the first.
There's three parts.
So the first part is that thewords I feel, and then you label
(25:19):
your emotion.
So I feel frightened, I feelangry, I feel abandoned, I feel
lonely, I feel, you know,anxious.
I feel.
Second part, when you, then Italk about what it is you did
that triggered that emotion.
So it's kind of that behavioremotion thing, but in reverse,
what's the emotion and what didyou do, right?
So I felt anxious and worriedwhen you came home an hour late
(25:43):
and didn't call and tell meyou're going to be late.
Oh, okay.
And then the last.
So it's, I feel when you, andthen the last of it is and I'd
like to ask you to please, whatyou want to do different next
time, all right.
So I felt anxious and worriedwhen you came home an hour late
and didn't call and tell meyou're going to be late.
I'd like to ask you next timeto please call if you're going
(26:05):
to be more than 15 minutes late.
Oh, I can do that.
Sure, that's easy.
But you've got to do it in thatorder.
And if you start with number two, when you, it feels a lot like
criticism or contempt, and thenI'm going to either shut down in
Stonewall or I'm going to getdefensive, or I might
counterattack with my owncriticism.
Well, you, yeah, yeah, you comehome late, you never call, so
(26:27):
that's not going to work.
So, and again, I encourage mycouples write that down, put it
on your refrigerator and makethat part of the very lexicon of
your relationship.
Put it on the mirror in thebathroom and in the front seat
of the car and everywhere whereyou tend to get into arguments,
and then say listen, whenever Ihear you start a conversation
(26:47):
with me with the words, I feelI'm going to pay really close
attention, because I'm about tolearn something important.
I'm about to learn that there'ssomething I did that hurt you
and, man, I don't want to dothat.
I want to be the perfecthusband, and if I got it wrong,
I want to know about it, and soI mean.
The reason it works is becauseit comes from this basic premise
(27:08):
that I really love you, I don'twant to ever hurt you and if
I'm doing something that hurtsyou, and if you can tell me
about that while treating mewith respect, not making me feel
like a failure, letting me knowI'm loved and I'm the most
important thing in your worldand I'm not lonely or abandoned.
I'm going to listen to that allday long because I really want
to get good at this job of beinga husband and you're going to
(27:30):
give me some really importantfeedback.
I need to pay attention.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
So good, the three-step formula.
Right there, folks, the I feelstatement, and I will say
because we have been using thisfor probably 18 years of our
marriage, I think two years intoour marriage, we're on a
marriage retreat and learnedthis and swore to use it.
And when we do use it, the partthat I noticed, doug, is that
(27:54):
when I'm searching for the labelfor my emotions because I want
to be as specific as possible,not just pick the top two I'm
elated or I'm angry, but I tryto get.
What am I really feeling?
You know, and when I'm in thatprocess of trying to discern my
feelings and the label I'm goingto put on it, my whole body
(28:17):
calms down Physiologically.
I can't keep up that, you know.
Internal energy when my mind istrying to focus on something,
so I love that part of this toothat it's a natural benefit, you
know.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
It is, yeah, absolutely.
And you know a lot of couplesor a lot of individuals guys, I
think, more, more than womensometimes but they have a hard
time labeling their emotion.
They're like I just know I'mupset, but I don't really know,
right?
So I just go online and justgoogle emotion wheel and you'll
come up with a hundred differentemotions.
We'll print one off and then gothrough and say, oh, there's
(28:52):
the one I'm feeling.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
So, um, but it's really important to be able to
be in touch with how you'refeeling and the hard thing, the
important thing, is to be ableto make the ask, to be able to
ask your spouse to do somethingdifferent, and a lot of times
people are afraid to do thatbecause they're afraid it'll end
up in a fight or an argument orsomething, and I think you got
to give each other permissionand say no.
If you need something, ask, askme and I.
(29:14):
You know, I'm sure you've seenit too, but a lot of couples I
work with the husband's like Iwill do anything for it.
I just need to know what it is.
I can't figure it out Right andthe wife's like I shouldn't have
to tell you I shouldn't have.
And it's like, well, listen,you married a guy.
We're a little bit thick headedright, we don't get it all the
time.
Do us a favor and tell us whatyou need and we'll.
(29:36):
We'll go over burning coals toget it for you, but we got to
know what it is.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
That's right and that's part of being a great
helpmate.
You know I tell women that allthe time.
Help him out he wants tosucceed, he wants more than
anything to please you.
And so you give him what heneeds right.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Throw him a biscuit, right that's right.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
It's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yeah, it really is.
It really is and I don't knowwhy we hesitate to do it, but we
do, and I guess maybe becausewe're afraid it'll turn into a
fight.
But if you've made the pledgethat we're not going to hop on
those four horses and if wepromise each other that, if
you've made the pledge thatwe're not going to hop on those
four horses, and if we, if wepromise each other that, if you
start off with the words, I feelI'm going to pay attention
because I want to know thisinformation it, it actually
(30:24):
works.
It really works and it doesn'ttake long.
I mean couples, couples whohave had, who have spent very
little time, and I tell themwhen I start working with them,
like, your job is to fire me and, as quickly as possible, be
done with me and move on.
And the couples who can get ridof me pretty quickly are the
ones who adopt the formulaquickly and implement it into
(30:45):
their life.
They're like man, we use it two, three, four times a day and it
really works.
And pretty soon you startrunning out of things because
I'm fixing this stuff.
Right, yes, and the deal it isum, rarely, you know, I nine
times out of 10, 99 times out ofa hundred, when we do something
that hurts our spouse, it's notintentional, right?
(31:05):
Right, you don't wake up in themorning thinking how can I
irritate my husband today?
Oh, I think I'll do that beforebreakfast.
You know, it's not what we do,right, but we're flawed and we
get it wrong and we getdistracted and we're just.
You know, we've got a millionthings in the air and we just
don't stop to think about whateach other needs.
And so if I realize that I'mjust not going to get it right a
(31:27):
lot and I need some intel tohelp me focus better, then it
works.
It really does.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
You know I want to bring something up, it just came
to my mind.
I think one of the experiencesI've had with couples is that
when someone is sharing, they'restarting to try this right.
Okay, now I'm going to tell youhow I feel when you do this
certain thing, and here's what Iwant you would like to you to
do different.
(31:54):
What they're met with fromtheir spouse is like a denial
that you could possibly feelthat way because of their
behavior.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Right.
So it's just like yeah, yeah,anxious.
Why would you be anxious that Iwas an hour late?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah, so it's just like yeah, anxious, why would?
You be anxious that I was anhour late.
Yeah, and it's just arguingwith the reality that the person
is trying to express.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, absolutely right, and listen right, and
part of it is just theappreciation that you're
entitled to your emotion and itis right.
So.
So when I say, well, youshouldn't feel like that, Well,
we call that defensiveness andwe call it criticism, like
there's something wrong with youfor worrying about me if I'm an
early, no, there's nothingwrong with me for worrying about
(32:40):
that.
And you need to appreciate thefact that I love you and I've
got this expectation of tellingyou to be on when you're not
there.
I, you know, I'm afraid you'rein a car accident or something.
Time you're gonna be, oh,you're not there.
I, you know, I'm afraid you'rein a car accident or something.
So it's the they just to beable to validate each other's
emotions and say, yeah, I Imight not have felt the same way
in a similar circumstance, butthat doesn't invalidate your
(33:01):
feeling as being legitimate andsomething I need to take into
consideration and I need toaddress.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, that's a great point yes, you're really having
to get outside of yourself andtune into your spouse and, like
you said, if that's not yourexperience or you don't worry if
somebody's late, that's okay,but you're setting yourself on
the shelf to tune into what itis your spouse needs, and
without judgment.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Yes, especially without judgment.
And you know, thank goodnesswe're so different.
I mean, if we both had the sameemotions and the same reactions
, that would be pretty boring.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
So boring.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, so it's boring.
So the fact that, yeah, and tobe able to just affirm each
other that you know what I getit and I'm sorry you're worried
and I don't want you to worryabout me and I'll get better.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yes, thank you for giving me a tip on how I could
change that, and I'm going totry it next time.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Exactly right.
Exactly right, and that's somuch.
And so I really my greatestenjoyment is working with
couples that are not yet married, you know, engaged or seriously
dating.
Because if you know, if you cantake these tools and start them
day one man you're going to.
You know a lot of that,especially that first year
adjustment stuff.
You know where you fuss andfight, getting used to living
(34:12):
with another person and all thatstuff.
It's going to be a lot smootherbecause, because the love is
still so intense and sopassionate that you know you
want to just be perfect andeverything, and then you'll
learn how to be pretty doggone,good, pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yes, that this should be part of.
Like every marriage prep courseis going through the three-step
formula learning about the fourhorsemen and just really
understanding it on a deep level.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, and that's why I put a marriage discernment
course out on my website,happymarriageforlifecom, for
couples to go through it and getthat training.
There's some parishes here inthe Chicago area that require
their couples to go through myworkshop and there's a few other
parishes that have me come outand talk to their couples during
the pre-K to say but that's asmall pool, you know, it's like
(34:57):
it's now on the radio station.
Maybe I can get these ideas outcoast to coast, which would be
even better.
So you know we're all trying to, in our own little way, help
people navigate life a littlemore confidently, with a little
less stress and angst.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yes, thank you for that.
So is this like a self-guidedcourse on your website that
people can purchase and watch?
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Correct it is.
And so I think, on the MarriageDiscernment Workshop, I think
I've got like 17 modules.
Each module I talk for justfive or 10 minutes, very brief,
and then there's a worksheet tofill out to kind of reinforce
that concept or have animportant conversation they need
to have and especially in amarriage discernment.
(35:42):
I'm aware of at least threecouples who went through it and
then broke up afterward and I'mlike that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
It is so.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I was giving a talk.
Yeah, I was giving a talk at aparish in North side of Chicago
and I walked in one night andthis young lady came up to me
and said I really want to thankyou.
I said you're very welcome.
Have we ever met?
She said no, no, but myboyfriend and I did your
marriage discernment course andwe broke up shortly afterward
and that's the greatest thing.
I'm very happy we did that.
I said now I've met a new boyand we're going to do your
(36:13):
marriage discernment course too.
I said well, let me know howthat works out and I'm happy to
report they're now married anddoing great.
So you know, but she dodged abig bullet with the first guy
and then found the right guy.
So the good thing about thecourse is it helps you discern
whether or not this marriagemakes sense.
And if you say yeah, it does,you have a higher confidence
level that, okay, we've had somereally important conversations,
(36:35):
we've really taken a good lookat each other and, yeah, this
thing's got a really highprobability of success.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
So good, happymarriageforlifecom.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
That's my personal website, right.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I tell you what I'm going to be sending it to my son
.
He's 18 and a half.
He just moved out.
He hasn't started really datingyet, but, man, I'm excited for
these types of resources and Ithink the younger generation is
actually very hungry for this.
They're saying like we'rewilling to get some education
and some training around this.
This is like we're used to this, you know coaching and things
like that.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
It's.
The dating world out thereright now is so, so tough and
I've got kids in the datingworld right now and it's tough.
Man, it is not easy and ourculture and society has just
really deformed so many youngpeople that it's a tough, tough
deal.
They need all the help they canget.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
All the tools we can get for sure.
Well, one of the things thatstruck me about one of the
episodes that you did recentlythat I related to keeping the
love alive in your marriage isjust this idea Talk about this,
how you challenge couples to dojust like invest like 1% into
(37:47):
your marriage every day.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.
And so I talk about there'sthree legs to a good marriage,
to the stool for a good marriage.
One is conflict management,others keeping the love alive,
and then third is forgiveness.
You're going to practiceforgiveness probably every day,
every day Several times.
Yeah, right, exactly, andnormally it's little things like
okay, I forgot to pick up themilk on the way home from work,
(38:10):
okay, but sometimes it's affairsor it's, you know, an alcohol
dependency problem.
Sometimes it's big stuff, yes,you know, and it gets a little
bit harder.
So, anyway.
So, but the keeping the lovealive part, yeah, so this is
based on CS Lewis's book, theFour Loves.
He based his book on thewritings of some guy named
Aristotle, so any idea that'sbeen around.
(38:33):
He knew a little bit aboutvirtue.
As best I could tell, he livedabout 2,500 years ago.
So if an idea hangs around2,500 years, it's probably
pretty good.
So Four Loves.
First is philia, which is thelove of friendship.
Right, and so friendship.
It's two parts to friendship.
One is we have a lot of thingsin common.
We actually enjoy spending timewith each other.
We like bicycling or hiking orcamping or cooking, and we just
(38:55):
have a lot.
Not everything.
You have to have your owninterests too, but the more you
have in common, the better.
That's the first part.
Second part of friendship is youknow, if I asked you who your
best friend was, you'd give mesomebody's name and I You'd give
me somebody's name and I'd say,okay, how do you know that
person's your best friend?
And you'd say, well, I can tellthat person anything.
I mean, I can confide in themmy deepest, darkest secrets, my
(39:17):
fears.
When I'm having a down day,they pick me up.
When I'm having a good day,they share in my joy and my
excitement.
That's another way of justsaying that they are emotionally
safe.
My heart is safe with thatperson.
That's why they're my bestfriend.
Well, that needs to be theperson you're married to.
That needs to be the safestperson in the world.
And when you're having a badday, that needs to be the person
(39:39):
that you turn to.
And that's the deep friendshipthat my heart is safe with you.
And the way I talk about it is,you know, you put your arms out
in front of you, form a circle,that you know.
I don't know what happened allday today in your day, but now
you're home and you're insidethe circle and now nothing bad's
going to happen to you nowbecause I got you right.
(40:01):
Yeah, that's friendship, okay.
Number two is a storge, whichis I just kind of talk about in
terms of gentle kindness.
Right, this is please and thankyou.
This is I'm going to just loveon you, I'm going to take good
care of you.
Your heart is safe.
I'm going to you, know, opencar doors for you and I'm going
to say please, thank you, I'mgoing to cook for you, I'm going
to take care of you when you'resick.
(40:21):
I'm just going to go out of myway to do really good, nice
things.
This is affirming and praising,and this is where I think you
know this.
I'll come to that.
Remind me to not to forget the1%, which was your actual
question.
I've taken a long time to getthere, so, but that's affirming
and praising and thanking andshowing appreciation.
And then number three is eros,which is physical love.
(40:43):
Right, that needs to be inplace.
It needs to be in the rightorder within marriage.
If you get that cart ahead ofthe horse, it doesn't end well
for a lot of reasons.
But the physical embrace, themarital embrace with a husband
and wife, really, reallyimportant.
Of the four loves.
That's the only love that isexclusive between the two of you
, that you share only with eachother and with no one else, and
(41:06):
it's really important that thatworks well.
The key for that working well,especially with newlyweds, is to
be able to talk about it.
You know after the fact whatwas good, what wasn't good.
You know you have to be able tohave a conversation about it.
It's a difficult thing.
It can be kind of bashful andawkward, but the couples who can
actually talk about it likeanything else, then you can make
the ask Well, I'd like to dothis, I would like that, I
(41:31):
didn't like this.
And the last is agape love,which is this sacrificial,
unconditional love.
I am in it forever.
Okay, and I'm not leaving, andthere's absolutely nothing you
can do that will make me leave.
And this is the love we pledgeon our wedding day, right?
Good times and bad health andsickness, et cetera, et cetera.
And I think I'm probably theonly man in the United States
who has my own love songplaylist on Spotify.
(41:51):
But I just I love love songsand so my kids will send me love
songs.
And they sent me one.
I don't even remember theartist, it was a country song,
but the refrain is it's a guysinging to his wife.
He says I come with a strongback and a lifetime warranty.
Bada bing, there you go, I loveit.
Right, that's agape love.
(42:12):
I'm going to work really hardat this marriage and at being
the best husband I can, and I'mguaranteed for life.
So I think that's pretty cool,all right.
So those are the four loves.
And when I'm working withcouples preparing for marriage,
I say listen, you've got toscore this thing out at an 80%
tile or higher, and I don't havea checklist or anything.
But if one of those four thingsis missing, if one of those
(42:34):
four things is a low level, donot get married.
It's not going to work.
And I've worked with a couplecouples who they probably met on
my Catholic match and theirfaith is really important to
them.
I mean maybe daily massrosaries.
They're leading a really goodCatholic life, and so the Storge
love.
(42:54):
They're very kind to each other, they know how to treat each
other really well, respectfully,and they're very polite Eros.
They find each other veryattractive.
There's a good physicalconnection there, agape.
Of course, because of theirfaith they try and imitate
Christ.
They're very sacrificial intheir love and they're great at
that.
And they get married.
And then they find out we justdon't have much in common.
I mean, you're a really goodperson, I'm a really good person
(43:16):
, but we have very differentinterests and so the friendship
piece really isn't in place.
They're like, oh man, we don'thave anything in common and
we've got to stay married forthe next 50 or 60 years.
That's going to be hard, right?
So you've got to make sure allfour of those things are at a
very high level and if it's not,you've got to move on, all
right.
So, with that said, the 1%Right, I encourage couples to
(43:39):
make a 1% investment daily intheir marriage and they're all
kind of like 1%, I think I coulddo that.
That doesn't seem too tough.
Well, percent, I think I coulddo that, that doesn't seem too
tough.
Well, it's 15 minutes out ofthe day.
You know, 1% of 24 hours isabout 15 minutes.
And week after week they comeback and say we didn't do it.
We didn't do it.
We did it once, it was great,we never did it again.
(44:02):
Because it's hard, especially ifyou've got kids right to carve
out the time.
But even newlyweds and emptynesters find a hard time carving
out time.
But marriage is like a garden,you know.
You can plant your tomatoes inthe spring, come back in the
fall and have some tomatoes, oryou can go out every day, pull
out a couple of weeds, water alittle bit, you know, and you're
going to have a great crop oftomatoes in the fall, right?
(44:24):
So you've got to invest in yourmarriage every single day and
to make that commitment thatsays okay, we're going to carve
out 10 or 15 minutes every day.
Just the two of us, no screens,nothing in the way, just the two
of us, where we are going tolove each other, affirm each
other, compliment each other,talk about what we're thankful
for.
It's your opportunity to tellme what went wrong in your day
(44:45):
and I can.
Then I can say man, you're agreat person, thank you so much
for putting up with all thatstuff.
I love you Right, and that'sthe time because I.
But if you don't get itscheduled and you go, well you
know we'll find some time.
It doesn't happen.
You got to be intentional aboutit, as you'd like to say, and I
agree with that a hundredpercent.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Yes, that's it 1% investment in our marriage every
(45:32):
day.
Great if you can get more, butstart there 15 minutes a day.
I love that you say your nameand then we ask you what you
need and then, if it's somethingyou need right away, we'll
oblige.
Otherwise, we're in herebecause we are trying to pay
particular attention to oneanother, without distraction,
and that has saved us, doug, I'mtelling you 15 minutes, even
just for a conversation.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Oh, my goodness, yeah for sure.
Well, right, exactly.
And I think your husband showsgreat wisdom there.
And I think here's the deal,the, the, the bedroom is the
sanctuary of the home, right?
Nothing but love and goodthings happen in that bedroom.
So I encourage, because youknow we tend to hang emotions on
the physical objects around theroom.
So if you get in a lot ofarguments in the bedroom and
(46:09):
then you know, and all of asudden it's like you know the
knickknacks and the paintings onthe walls and all of a sudden
it's like those bring upnegative emotions when you walk
in the room.
So never, under any condition,do you fight or argue in the
bedroom.
You know, if you're going tobed and you're starting to get
into a fight, get out of bed andgo to the garage, right, all by
(46:30):
garage, right, all by itself.
That'll probably end the fight,because you're like, yeah, I
ain't getting out of bed, so youwin that.
Yeah, no, no, you win, I loveyou.
Good night, right, so, but yougot to protect the bedroom.
That is the for the couple,that's the sanctuary, and you're
right.
And so the kids only get in byinvitation and we don't cover
any difficult things in thebedroom.
That's the one room that's offlimits to any kind of arguing,
fussing, fighting at fighting atall.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
Man, now that you say that, that is where I feel like
that's where the enemy willstir things up.
Oh my, yeah, yeah, yeah, rarelyis it in the kitchen or, like
you said, in the garage or thebackyard.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
It's like in that bedroom there's something that's
like yeah, well, right, and youknow you mentioned the enemy
and we haven't really talkedabout satan's involvement in in
destroying marriages.
But, um, his number one attackagainst marriage is to get you
to focus on your spouse'sdefects.
That's the number one thing.
And if he can get you focusedbecause we all got them, so it's
(47:28):
not hard, or it's like you'repretty aware of what your
spouse's defects are and if hecan get you focused because we
all got them, so it's not hard.
You're pretty aware of whatyour spouse's defects are.
And if he can get you to focuson those, man, that can drive a
wedge between the two of you andthe disarming.
Which is why the 1% investmentis so important, because I'm
concentrating on your virtuesnow and I'm telling you what I
love about you and I'm tellingyou what a great mother you are
and what a great husband you are, and so that you know you
(47:50):
counter the negativity bybringing in a bunch of
positivity, and that's what youdo in that 1% investment.
And that really frustrates thedevil, because he wants you to
focus on the defects.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Ooh yes, he loves the horse of criticism and contempt
and stonewalling anddefensiveness.
He's like you ride those horses, they're great, they're going
to take you to great places andthen all of a sudden, you're
going no.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yeah, you're entitled , you're entitled.
Yeah, you should be treatedbetter.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Yes, important.
When we recognize that'shappening for us, that we've
been kind of hijacked, you know,by the enemy, that we just
rebuke that in the name of Jesus.
You know it's like, oh no, nottoday, satan, like you're not
going to get in the middle of mymarriage.
And I recognize you're here andI'm excusing you.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Right, yeah, right, right, get behind me.
Satan.
And you got to realize whatever.
Whenever that starts and youknow that space between the
emotion and your behaviorthere's something that happens
in there called thinking right.
And we start have I ever seenanything like this before, and
do I got to put a stop to thisnow, or what you know?
And I start thinking about it.
Well, satan can get in thereand influence that thinking, say
(48:57):
, oh sure, oh yeah, oh yeah, hedoesn't care about you because
he's late and he's who knowswhat.
He's probably got a girlfriend,he's, you know, and you're just
way off course.
And that's just Satan sittingback there throwing all those
ideas in your brain.
So you got to realize that andjust say okay, get behind me,
I'm not dealing with that.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
That's right.
That is right.
So good, doug.
This has just been wonderful.
You've given us so many goldennuggets.
There's so many opportunitiesfor our listeners to learn from
this, to listen to the episodeagain.
Please share it with people inyour circles, right?
Text it off to people.
Shoot our email out that hasthis podcast in it to other
(49:37):
people in your family, to yourspouse.
Make sure that your spousehears this.
You know, in our coaching, doug, I recommend that our couples
listen to you know two of thefour episodes per month that we
put out, based on the topic forthe month, and then discuss it
as a couple, and this is a newthing that they're getting into.
(49:58):
It's a little home date thatthey can do together pour a
glass of wine, you know, or makea treat and sit down and watch
the YouTube version of thispodcast or listen to the episode
and then have a fruitfulconversation.
How can we implement some ofthese things?
Speaker 2 (50:14):
in our marriage?
Yeah, exactly, exactly so I I.
I was up in Minnesota umSaturday giving a couple of
talks up there and I just askedfor a show of hands.
There was like there were like70, 80 couples at each one.
I just said give me a show ofhands.
Did any of you marry anunintelligent person?
Anybody here marry a dumbperson?
Nobody raised their hands.
(50:35):
I said okay, that means you'veall now publicly stated that you
married an intelligent person,and so if your spouse sees
something differently than youdo, you need to get curious
about it, because they're prettysmart and they're seeing a
different.
You're missing something, right.
And so, to have this spirit ofcuriosity, if we've got a
(50:56):
difference of opinion, and Ineed to get curious about how
you're seeing it differentlythan I am, I'm going to learn a
lot, right.
And so to be able to watch yourpodcast, I think, which is a
beautiful thing.
And then, with the spirit ofcuriosity, well, what did you
take away?
What did you hear?
Cause you're going to heardifferent things.
You're going to filter itthrough your own lens, your own
eyes, your own ears.
Well, how did you take thatpoint at this point?
(51:16):
And how can we do that, andwith a curious spirit, rather
than a judgmental spirit or adefensive spirit like cause.
You know, listen to any of yourpodcasts and you're going to
say, oh yeah, I'm not doing that, oh yeah, I could be better at
that.
Okay, good, well, let's not getdefensive.
Let's say, okay, it's an areafor me to work on and try to
improve on, and that's what I'mgoing to go do so the work
(51:36):
you're doing is unbelievablyvaluable, god bless you, you too
.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Thank you for getting on the airwaves.
Every day Folks call in to theMarriage Unhindered show on
Relevant Radio.
I love the play on words.
Your last name is Hinderer.
Marriage Unhindered.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
I didn't come up with that, the brain trust here did.
But yeah, it's on five o'clockcentral time, monday through
Friday, or through the app orthe website, you can catch it
anytime you want to.
Just hit the play button andplay it whenever you want to.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
So yeah, find the show on relevant radio and be
sure to check outhappymarriageforlifecom all the
good resources there.
Listen, doug, this has beensuch a pleasure.
Thank you so much for blessingour listeners and me yeah, yeah,
you're very welcome.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
J I thank you for the invitation to be here and and,
uh, keep up the good work thatyou're doing.
It's so important out there,and God bless.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Thank you, god bless you and I hope to meet you in
person sometime.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
That would be wonderful, I would like that.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Awesome.
Well, parents, listen, I'mgoing to catch you on another
episode of our show real soon.
Invest 1% into your marriagetoday.
15 minutes of goodness withyour spouse.
Pour on the love, pour on thegratitude, compliment them, give
them a good embrace, look themin the eye.
This is the beginning ofreconnecting your marriage and
(53:07):
really helping to keep the lovealive.
So we'll catch you on anothershow real soon.
Thanks so much for tuning in.
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