June 24, 2025 • 67 mins
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Your son was never meant to wander into manhood – he was meant to be led there. In a culture where most boys grow up without clear markers for their transition to manhood, they're left asking one haunting question: "Do I have what it takes?" This uncertainty ripples through generations, leaving men anxious, directionless, and disconnected from their purpose.
Shaun Garrison, father of six and founder of Windswept Treks, shares his powerful journey of creating a year-long masculine initiation for his teenage son.
We discuss:
• Traditional cultures used intentional rites of passage to mark the transition from boy to man
• Boys often show readiness for initiation when they begin pushing against parental authority
• Rites of passage help boys develop confidence, purpose, and answer "Do I have what it takes?"
• Similar intentional one-on-one time is valuable for father-daughter relationships
Connect with Sean at windswept.co or email him at shaun@windswept.co to learn more about guided adventures and resources for intentional parenting.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How will your son know when he's become a man?
If you're raising a boy, stopand really think about that,
because chances are he won't.
You know, most boys today growup without a clear moment where
they step out of boyhood andinto manhood.
(00:20):
They age but don't arrive, andthat's a problem, a big one.
Without a rite of passage, boysare left to figure it out on
their own, and that confusionleads to what we're seeing
everywhere Men who are lost,anxious, emotionally fragile,
unsure of their role anddisconnected from purpose.
(00:44):
But it wasn't always this way.
For centuries, fathers andtrusted men in communities used
to lead boys through intentionalexperiences, rites of passage
that marked the transition fromboy to man, and these were
really powerful defining moments.
(01:06):
They taught him, they testedhim, they challenged him and
they showed him how to lead,love, protect, provide, to be
both warrior and servant.
And this is how boys used tobecome men.
But in today's culture that'sgone.
(01:28):
We're seeing the fallout inevery generation.
So if you're a parent raising ason, you can't afford to skip
this episode.
It's time to rediscover whatboys have always needed and what
we must be intentional about asparents reclaiming.
So today I have on our showSean Garrison.
(01:51):
He's in studio with me, so ifyou're listening, flip over to
our YouTube channel so you cancheck us out.
We're sitting side by side hereand Sean is going to talk to us
about this very issue rites ofpassage.
So welcome back to the Familyas a Character show.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Thank you so much, Jordan.
I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yes, guys, Sean is, like I said, a return guest.
He runs an organization calledWindswept Treks and they offer
guided outdoor excursions forthe purpose of connecting
parents with their kids,creating new memories,
disconnecting from technologyand being immersed in our
(02:31):
beautiful natural world.
And Sean is not only an avidoutdoorsman, but he's also a
husband and father to six, withhis own experience of fathering
sons.
So we're going to dive rightinto this topic.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Okay, yes.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Sean, tell us why is this topic of rites of passage
sort of important to you.
Tell us, kind of, where we'redeveloping these rites of
passage and leading kids through.
This came from for you.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yes, I would say it comes from the struggle.
It comes from Socrates sayingknow thyself.
And so really it's my ownstruggle with growing up and
it's funny because you'retalking about, like you know,
here are all the problems thatcan happen, you know, with kids
(03:26):
and, and to my right is anexample of of a broken human
being, of how, of how confusedmales can get.
So I come from a broken family.
I come from someone who hasfather wounds, who has who is
not.
I think my dad did get somethings right and he did some
(03:48):
great things and but I see how Istruggled and how I was
confused and how I didn't knowmyself.
I didn't have any North Star, Ididn't have any any clear sense
of what life is, who I am,what's my purpose here.
So, in the grand scheme ofthings and that does become
(04:08):
severely problematic for us, ifyou know here we find ourselves
on a stage and we're like what,what's the story, what's my,
what's my part in this?
And and so I guess, back in theearly two thousands, I came
across a book called wild atheart by John.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Eldridge.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
And the subtitle is Discovering the Secret of a
Man's Soul and Jordan.
When I read that, it soresonated with me, it just gave
me this sort of self-knowledge.
I mean, he even speaks of howEve was created in the garden,
in a cultivated space, and Adamcame from the wilderness.
And in a cultivated space andAdam came from the wilderness.
And so there is a sense wheremen were made for the wilderness
(04:49):
, in a sense, and like ourrugged characteristics are made
for wildness.
I mean there are elements thatneed to be, you know, tamed and
directed and redirected, and allthat.
But part of what struck me aboutJohn Eldredge he says that
(05:13):
there is an aspect of initiationthat needs to happen that
oftentimes doesn't happenexactly.
You articulated that so well atthe beginning and that he goes
so far as to say that most menwalking around in today's
society are boys walking aroundin men's bodies, which is like,
oh, okay.
And then even the sense of youknow the people who are like,
who may not question, like, oh,I'm a man, I'm like, you know, I
(05:35):
drive a big truck and whatever,like you know, you know what
our society, what our culture,like the poisonous ideas of like
this is what it means you knowand to have you know, to use my
strength to you know, bedomineering over other people
and be like that timeout that is, that's not the thing, right,
exactly.
So I had read that book when Iwas, you know, in my mid
(05:56):
twenties and I'm like, oh mygosh, this gives me so much
self-knowledge and just thesense of, oh I have.
These are the my father woundsand struggles, my, you know,
confused sense of self that hascome from not having a clear
path forward and then fastforward.
(06:20):
I blinked and I'm like, wait, Ihave children and I have a son
who's like preteen now and like,oh, what, what happened to
those books?
And, like you know that I hadread 20 years ago, um, and so I
started, uh, rereading.
And the other thing, so, um, soEldridge wrote, uh, wild at
heart.
And then he followed up withthis book the way of the wild
heart.
It was re-released, uh, underthe title fathered by God.
And he goes through this, thisbrilliant, uh idea of, okay, if,
(06:44):
if our culture lacks rites ofpassage, how do we create them?
Because, like you're saying, weneed something.
He says, otherwise the boy willkind of wander through life and
he'll always have that naggingquestion Do I have what it takes
?
Yes, and so, like this sort ofreally this insecurity yes that
(07:07):
can be hiding behind.
You know all sorts of puffed up,you know facades of like oh
yeah, that guy's totally a man.
Yeah, he obviously knows whatit means and we can't assume
that you know, we can't and so.
So he lays out, uh, this, thispath.
For I guess, guess basically anexample.
He was like here's a year ofmasculine initiation that I did
(07:29):
with my son so that it wouldtake him from you're a boy now
and I'm going to invest in youwith other men, to the point
where, at the end of this year,you will be able to confidently
say I am.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
An entire year of initiationfrom boyhood to manhood, like a
series of rites of passages.
It sounds like.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yes, and I guess the background is there's assumed
that we're loving our childrenfrom day one, that we're
investing in them, that we're,you know, establishing that
we've established theserelationships and that we have
affection for our children andthat they know that, that they
are loved and respected, and allthat, yeah.
But really it came, uh, againfast forward.
(08:15):
I'm like, oh, time's upon usand so my son, uh, is getting
into his early teens, and I'm so.
So I'm like, how do you, how doI do this?
Like there's an idea, I likewhat Eldridge did, and then I
looked up and there's some otherresources that are just talking
about.
Like, yeah, definitely thereare ways to be able to involve
other men into this.
And so, yeah, let's explainbasically what I did with my son
(08:37):
Between his 14th and 15thbirthdays, that I set that as
his, his year of initiation.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Um, so like.
So that's again we're.
We're loving our kids all theall the way up into this, but
this is a year of particularinvestment, of particular
intentionality to say, okay,we're.
It's going to be like sharedadventures and camping trips and
and fishing and mountain bikingand you know, and and eating
fun snacks and going explore newplaces and and and having
(09:09):
conversations about, aboutscripture and about life and
about uh, I know I was bringingin these other men, um, to
basically teach him a skill, soI'll, I'll go back to that, but
so, basically, on the, the nightof his 14th birthday, I had
prefaced this before.
I was like Andrew.
There's this year of masculineinitiation.
(09:30):
I want to invite you into this.
Are you willing to be part ofit?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
I love it.
The invitation.
You asked him.
You told him what it was andthen you said I want to invite
you into this.
That's right, Would you join meon this journey?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
With obviously a lot of unknowns and question marks
and like what all does this meanor entail, right, but I think
maybe that's almost like amicrocosm of the adventure of
all of life.
I mean, john Eldridge says toyou like a man is never more of
a man than when he walks into abattle that he's not sure of
winning, of an adventure he'snot sure of.
(10:08):
You know, like he's unsure of,like into the.
I mean it would be justfalseness to be like and you can
plan your entire life andcontrol it, right, like an air
conditioned.
You know we can.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
You got it all figured out before you start.
No, there's no adventure inthat, or?
Any challenge in that orreality.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
So so I invited him and he said yes, and and I kind
of left it at that.
And then the night of hisbirthday I said okay, andrew,
it's time for you to go with me.
So I was like okay, and so thatwe went to.
I had a friend of mine's nearbyand he had this big outdoor
fire going and this I thinkthere may be six or seven other
(10:51):
guys, trusted Christian friendsof mine who are part of this and
he was like there and I kind ofyou can make it.
You know you can adapt this tohowever you want to do this with
your kids.
You know your kids' personality.
But I kind of made it a littlebit formal.
I crafted it.
(11:11):
My father-in-law is a deaconalso and so he came with like
with a book of blessings and atthe end like said a special
blessing for him.
But basically just the mainthrust was you are now a boy.
But basically just the mainthrust was you are now a boy,
but these friends of mine aregoing to walk and I are going to
walk with you to bring you tothis point where you are a man,
(11:33):
you are in the company of menwith us, and I think, yeah, that
other sense.
Maybe it was Eldridge who saidyou know, a woman can never
bestow masculinity upon a man.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
And that's that might .
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I'm curious your thoughts of like.
I mean, how confused does ourculture get when, when the man's
like I'm trying to prove myselfby Right yeah, that's not
possible.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
It's just not possible.
That's why this community ofmen trusted men that are in your
community and that that yourson knows as well is vital.
It's crucial to kind of mentorthem along and to be on the
journey with them.
Yeah, I'm a woman.
I don't know about this stuff,you know.
I mean and it's sad for me, forsingle mothers who are trying
(12:17):
to give their sons a richexperience, you know, If you're
listening and that's you I wouldhighly recommend you connect
with some supportive Christianmen that are in your son's
circle and ask them to help youwith this.
What a beautiful gift for a manto be able to mentor another
(12:39):
boy and to step in as a littlebit of that father figure and
just that trusted male companion.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Absolutely.
That's a fantastic idea.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
So you kicked off the 14th birthday with a little
bonfire with a group of guysthat you know, some blessings
over your son, and then youreally I heard you use the words
to him like you are a boy now,use the words to him like you
(13:11):
are a boy now.
But this journey is meant tobring you along the path to
arrive at manhood, Like you arebecoming a man, son, and like as
a mom.
I just love to hear thatbecause I think when we speak
directly to our kids in theseways, in these terms, it brings
a whole new reality to them andand it kind of helps them to
level up right, To rise up.
Oh, somebody thinks I'm capableof this, Somebody invest, is
(13:34):
investing in me and believesthat I am, I'm made for more,
that it's time for me to leavemy boyish ways behind and take
on this identity, this God-givenpurpose.
Woo, so good.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yes, and I guess, just to qualify too, I think it
may depend on the particularindividual.
You know the boy in terms ofwhat age you do that at, but
just for what it's worth forAndrew, it ended up being the
perfect time for him.
So it was like 14, he was ineighth grade and then, you know,
(14:10):
15, he's in high school.
So it's that it's moving himfrom middle school to high
school.
I think he grew like six inches, like there was just a lot of
for him, that just like I thinkhe could, that just it was
fitting for him yes, yeah, butjust to know that there's
flexibility there for.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Sure, some of them may need this earlier.
Maybe they are already lookinglike a man, right, they've
matured earlier and they'rebigger.
They got facial hair, they'rethey're ready.
They're ready for the nextlevel, and so it may be at 12 or
13 that this, this happens forthem, and certainly there's
going to be some boys that maybeyou know it's going to be 15 or
(14:48):
16.
But I think the point is toencourage them along, to start
somewhere, right?
There's no perfect timeline,right?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Right, right, right, yeah, exactly, and I think I
mean this is such a, this is anovel idea for us in our culture
.
So, for I know some dads wouldbe kind of like, oh, they found
out about this and they're like,oh, I wish I would have done
something like this, but nowit's too late and I I think
there's there's, there's no suchthing as too late in the grand
scheme of I have today, I havethe present moment.
(15:19):
God, you know my gifts and mylimitations, yeah, and the other
thing that I'll say, Jordan, islike I said, I had some ideas,
but I really felt like the wholeyear I was kind of winging it.
I'm like this is worth pursuing, but I don't claim to have
super organized, yeah, but whichalso allowed space for God, the
(15:42):
Father, to father me andprovide for me in the midst of
my poverty, in the midst of mylack of preparedness, or you
know, or whatever.
But I mean God, you know that'sof us being spirit led people,
you know that we leave space andwe express our need, like our
poverty, like God, you have toshow up.
(16:03):
I only got five loaves and twofish.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
And it's not enough.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
What I have is not enough, but you can make it more
than enough.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I love that because if you're listening and you're
thinking, oh, I got to have thisall planned out and prepared
and ready to present the fullplan you know, signed, sealed,
delivered on the 14th birthdayno, please listen to what Sean's
saying.
He's saying it's reallyimportant for us to leave room
for the Holy Spirit to inspireus to maybe change our mind.
(16:34):
Maybe we thought this was goingto be a great idea, to do this
one certain thing and the HolySpirit goes.
You know what?
You know, your son has alwaysmentioned guitar or something.
This is a challenge, but thiscould be something that you know
brings him great joy for therest of his life.
So what about challenging himto grow and and develop the
skill of playing the guitar?
(16:54):
Maybe that you thought it wasgoing to be camping and rough,
rugged stuff, but maybe God says, yeah, a little bit of that and
a little bit of this, right.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
So, just giving yourself permission to not have
it all figured out when youstart absolutely well and yeah,
just to build on that point, Iguess, maybe to finish up.
So the the opening ceremony.
So it was his birthday.
He had already received someother birthday gifts, but he got
a few other gifts.
That night, in front of theother men, it was like open this
up.
Oh, it's a sleeping bag.
(17:24):
Okay, this is speaking ofthings to come in this year.
Oh, I just opened a rockclimbing harness.
Okay.
Oh, blaze orange hunting vestOkay.
So now there's this sort ofmystery and anticipation, like
okay, what sort of adventuresare in store?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
for this year.
Oh, that is so awesome.
I've heard of men giving theirsons, maybe even after one of
these adventures, kind of like atrophy, like a Gerber
multi-tool or a knife, theirfirst knife.
But I like starting off theyear with a few tools that they
(18:06):
are going to need for thesejourneys Because, like you said,
it creates that sense ofanticipation.
And, oh, he's given me threethings that are three different
kind of adventures.
He really trusts that I'm goingto be able to do this, like
he's already invested in me andbelieves that I'm going to make
it to the third challenge orwhatever I imagine that is just
(18:29):
such a beautiful message for ayoung boy to receive, especially
from their father.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yes, and so kind of going on.
So then the idea is like inthat whole year, so yeah, it's
capped by the opening ceremonyand the closing ceremony, which
for us was at the same exactplace, also a bonfire at night
with those guys.
So on his birthday both timesit's so I guess all the other
(18:56):
guys, I asked them, I said hey,can you be present?
Yeah, for opening and closingceremony.
And then I know everyone's busy, but can you just, let's say,
even one afternoon somewhereduring that whole year, can you
take Andrew and teach him askill?
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
And so so I was reading about this, you can
Google a hundred things a manshould know and some of those
lists have you know differentitems on there, uh, from like
basic things like here's how youtie a tie, here's how you cook
an egg, here's how you change atire, here's how you field dress
a deer, like I mean, like allthe way you know the gamut of
(19:36):
things.
And so I think, even since then, jordan, I've learned like, yes
, even those practical learning,those practical skills, builds
confidence in a man, yes, who'smeant, if we're meant to protect
, provide, serve and do allthese things, it's helpful to
know how to do those things.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
So, and I mean for me , like coming into home
ownership and like, oh my gosh,I do not know how to do a lot of
these things, it becomes anaspect of frustration, like I
don't, oh, like I don't, oh, man, I don't have what it takes.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
You know this.
I thought I could fix thissprinkler.
No, it's you know, and, andhonestly, john Eldridge talks
about his own frustration.
He's just like like fixing asprinkler or these other home,
like, become a point of like oh,these are still my wounds?
I don't.
My dad never taught me how todo these things.
(20:30):
I don't know so, and YouTube isnot a sufficient fatherhood.
Fatherly presence Like YouTubecan teach you you know some
plumbing and electricity andthings you know.
You know basic wiring, butthat's, that's the.
The skills are helpful butthey're not the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
It's not mentorship, it's not that one-to-one here.
I'm going to show you, I'mgoing to have you do it and you
know, with me here, and then youdo it on your own.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yes, right, yes.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
That I do it, we do it, you do it kind of mentorship
.
I love it.
Okay, so what kinds of thingsdid these men show up to teach
Andrew?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yes, and I'm just looking at you know these, this
diverse group of guys and someyou know some, some younger than
me, some about my age, some alittle bit older, and be like
guys, I'm totally open towhatever you know.
One of the guys was like I'mreally good at finance.
I'm like you could teach himhow to you know, look, you know,
deal with this, checking, youknow, basic things like that.
(21:29):
A friend of mine was like Iwant to meet Andrew at this cafe
and I'm going to teach him howto pray with scripture, and I'm
like that is awesome, thank you.
And then some of the other likeskills came from like a group of
us guys would go on a 14er,like we'd go climb a mountain
and do a camping trip once everysummer, and so andrew came into
(21:53):
that group and, um and soactually that was toward the end
of the year and there was a a14 000 foot mountain.
That's, uh, not just a hike,it's more hand over hand
climbing, like, like risk, likerisk, like big fall potential,
uh, so that.
But that was part of his bigchallenge.
Like I'm inviting you into this.
(22:15):
There is real risk involved,wow, uh, and you know, and I'm
bringing these other guys arewith me in a company, and so
that all became part of theshared experience.
And lo and behold how the Lordprovides we got a flat tire.
Thank you, lord.
Thank you so much.
I've been meaning for Andrew tolearn how to change a tire and
(22:38):
here's you know out in themiddle of nowhere.
Everyone says you need to bereally specific about what you
pray for, Cause we ended upgetting a second flat tire and
we did not have another spare.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
So so it ended up getting a second flat tire, and
we did not have another spare.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
So so it also involves, you know, another
change of tire, like trying topatch, trying to slowly drive,
to get it anyway.
Um, but that was the otherpoint that I wanted to mention
is the sense of like.
Adventure is, uh, I may havementioned this, gk Chesterton,
and adventure, by definition, issomething that comes to us, not
(23:13):
something that we choose.
So, so if on that particularhike that was like okay and um,
another, the, if you guys knowthe Patagonia clothing company,
the guy who founded it, yvonneChouinard, uh, he was saying in
a documentary, saying in adocumentary he's like I think
adventure that word is overusedhe's like, to me, adventure is
(23:34):
when things go wrong.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yes, that's so true, and those are the best learning
moments.
I can remember just taking mysons to Nebraska.
And Parker was just learning todrive and he was 15 and he's
driving the car and we get inthe only patch of the journey
(23:57):
where there's no cell receptionthere's no shoulders on the
two-lane highway and all of asudden he's driving along and
I'm like, oh no.
I said, is that the radio, thestatic on the radio or something
he's like no, something bad'shappened.
He pulls over and and, like theI I don't know what you call
this, but some metal pan on thebottom of the front of the car
(24:22):
had like dropped down and wasdragging on the ground and I'm
sitting here going through allthe worst case scenarios.
Sean, I'm like some load ofdudes is going to come by and,
like you, know, assault me andtie up my children and we're
going to be left for dead.
And there's no cell reception,you know.
And in the meantime my sons getout of the car and they're
(24:43):
wandering the ditches lookingfor ways to fix this piece of
metal that's hanging off the carbecause we don't have any
clippers or any anything to cutthis thing off so we could keep
going.
And they find a blown out tireand it's got the you know tread
there's some tread that's kindof pulled off and the, the
wiring that's in the rubber, andso they grabbed a piece of that
(25:06):
, got under the car and tiedthat thing back up.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
With a piece of the tire and I thought this was the
best trip ever, and I called myhusband as soon as I got cell
reception.
I'm like you're not going tobelieve what happened.
He's like oh no, it soundsterrible.
What did you guys do?
And then he was like that wasawesome.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
That you could have never planned never.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
And then they got to the gas station and they had to
ask for some pliers because thatthat little thing didn't work
and it was gonna work wasn'tgonna work for the long haul.
So they're like we, we actuallyhave to cut this whole thing
off and just put it in the trunkbecause it's causing so many
issues.
And the lady was not nice aboutit and they were like geez,
that was a rough conversation.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
And again I'm like yes, another adventure.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
So you can't plan these things.
But this is what buildscharacter right To have to have
the courage and the confidenceand to challenge yourself, to
push yourself beyond the limitsof what you believe you're
capable of.
And when we build up thosereservoirs of courage and
confidence, it spills out whenwe get older and we're faced
(26:16):
with really difficult decisionsrelationships, you know
pornography, you know should Iskim off the top of my business?
You know, like all theseopportunities, that you could
take shortcuts or do somethingthat's tempting but definitely
not right.
That if we've built up thisreservoir of of uh, you know
(26:37):
courage and honesty andconfidence and we know other
people believe in us, then Ithink it's easier to say no to
the really difficult things.
You know when easier to say noto the really difficult things.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
you know when, when they are men.
Yes, you're making me think, um, my uh, stepdad is a great
handyman and I'm just likeamazed at the things that he can
build and fix and all that andsome of the things that he said
is just like it's.
It's not that you you know, likeat a young age he didn't just
know how to do all these things.
It's that you show up andyou're like how do I find a
(27:10):
creative solution based on whatwe have, which is exactly what
your boys did, digging around inthe ditch.
I love that and imagine thesort of confidence and be like
this is all we got.
Yes, like MacGyver.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
We got to make do with what's right here in front
of us.
What a skill we got to make dowith what's right here in front
of us.
What a skill.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
That's right, and I've heard other guys who are
like really handy in terms of,like you know, home, home repair
sort of thing, and like no,that is or so, home repair or
like, if you live on a farm andbe like that, you only got so
much.
Yeah, so you, you become good atinnovating and adapting and so
and I think that's that's thesort of thing that you're saying
(27:50):
that that builds confidence andlike, and we're modeling that
hopefully for our sons and thenwe're inviting them into live
that and hopefully there's youknow, there's even value when we
collectively are in that spaceof the unknown, and then
hopefully our kids will see usstill be confident and hopeful
(28:11):
that there's a solution, eventhough at this moment we don't
see any solution.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yes, that's so important, like you said, to
model that hope and thatconfidence that there is an
answer.
We might not have hit on it yet, but, son, we're going to get
in here and we're going tofigure this out together.
Like what's the worst that canhappen, we have to call for
professional help.
Okay, we'll give ourselves thatpermission to do that after
(28:37):
we've tried all these things.
But I think, um, from what I'veseen as as just being a
counselor, you know, kids reallyare watching us all the time.
They are picking up on ourvibes and if we're like, oh,
that's the last thing I needed,you know, when we get a flat
tire, you will hear them say thesame sorts of things, you know.
(28:59):
And so it's important for us toto just be working on developing
our own character, too, andgrowing in virtue where we go.
Okay, how are we going tohandle this?
Right, it's kind of thatinternal conversation and then
you spit out like, all right, wegot to figure this out.
Right, with confidence.
You just say this is justwhat's what we're dealing with
(29:20):
right now and how are we goingto move forward in order to get
the outcome that we want?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
that's right, yes so I think there there is a balance
.
Like you know, when we're, ifyou're like doing high altitude
mountaineering, there, there arevery real dangers.
You know that that could belife and death, and like like
being prepared, but at the sametime, like yeah, how do we?
Yeah For you, for us, asparents like be creative, be
(29:46):
open to going to like to takerisks.
I mean especially for our boys,need risks and the notion of
like, like, get out, like in thefour walls of our home where we
can control the temperature andwe feel safe and all that
there's.
That's kind of an illusion, solike.
So there's, there's somethinghelpful to be dropped in the
middle of you know, highmountains and be like, wow, I'm
(30:09):
actually really small and thereare wildlife that are, you know,
it's way bigger than me andthere are, you know, you know
storms that could come in anddump snow at this time of year
any, any time of year.
Yes, yes, like lightning and allthis, know so, um, yes, so I
(30:30):
think that's a great.
These adventures are amicrocosm and foreshadowing of
the adventure of life in general, which is this giant unknown.
I think our kids, yeah, can,can have this illusion like, oh,
you know, like you know it'shard being a kid and trying to
figure all this stuff out, butyou know but, but our parents,
you know, they have it togetherand I think it's maybe good for
(30:54):
us to be able to say like no,but we, we don't like.
Like life keeps changing, thereare different seasons.
It's kind of like okay, nowwe're moving into another thing
I don't know, right, I mean,mean, and there's like for
people will sometimes say to methey're like oh you know, you
have six kids.
(31:14):
Like so you're a veteran, likeyou figured this out, and be
like, let me stop you rightthere, like that is not how this
works and I've shared with youbefore too.
We, we have a younger set ofkids that are just way different
than the older ones, and we'rewe're having to relearn how to
parent and be like uh, we, theother ones didn't have ADHD and
these other challenges and likeI don't, I don't know, and and
(31:35):
I'm I'm struggling to like I'mnot doing this very gracefully
at times.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Sure, but you're committed to figuring it out
Right and to being intentionalabout next steps.
Right or acknowledging, I don'tknow.
This is brand new territory forme, but I'm willing to journey
along with you and we can figurethis out together.
That's, that's the name of thegame.
It's not about perfectparenting.
It's just about being willingto do better and to journey
(32:05):
alongside your spouse and yourkids and say we are in this, we
are a team together.
Together, we're going to figurethis out.
You have my support, you havemy encouragement, and please
give me some mercy when I tripand fall, because even though
I'm I'm the taller one, theolder one, like this is a
lifelong thing, is we're?
We're going to fail at stuff,but we got to keep trying Big
(32:27):
time, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yes, I like it when I fall, exactly Not if, when this
is going to happen.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
When I repeatedly yes .
Speaker 2 (32:36):
And well, I mean and like, because we're talking
about forming kids in general.
I've realized that part of Ithink we said this Pope John
Paul the second described thefamily as a school of love, of
learning love and like andespecially, you know, implicit
in that you're going to have toshare, you're going to have to
(32:56):
like the whole the whole world'snot about you, kids, sorry.
God loves you infinitely andyou're not the center of the
universe at the same time tryingto figure all that out.
But yeah, the adventurecontinues.
The adventure continues, oh, butwhat I was going to say is also
implicit is yes, is that I'mgoing to mess up, my wife's
going to mess up, and then we'regoing to have to say sorry and
(33:19):
then ask for forgiveness, notjust say sorry, oh, it doesn't
matter.
Yeah, from the Christian senseof like no, let there be a real
repair.
Like it doesn't matter.
But like in the yeah From theChristian sense of like no, let
there be a real repair.
Like no, that was wrong.
I responded poorly.
I'm sorry and I'm asking yourforgiveness.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Do you forgive?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
me.
Yeah, and like my kids, almostlike no hesitation yes, I
forgive you, yes, yes.
And then and then, as aspainful as that feels like has
felt to me, I'm realizing likethat's actually a huge win in
terms of modeling.
And yeah what is your, what areyour thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, just just yesterday myhusband and I got in a little
argument and kids were inearshot.
Right we were.
We were talking about whatconstitutes a date and what
doesn't, and I was talking aboutgoing to Home Depot to look at
flooring and I thought that wasa great.
Yeah, that counts.
And he's like no, because whenwe do these things like, then
(34:17):
the next step is we're gettingflooring like the next day.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
It's not just a browsing about Jordan, you don't
get this.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Like we've gone down this road before.
So we were kind of going backand forth and my daughter said,
Mom, are you and dad in a?
And she wouldn't say it like ina fight or in an argument, you
know.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
And.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
I said we're having a little disagreement about
something, but it's all good,your dad and I can work these
things out, you know.
And so she went away and didher thing.
And then she came back, rightbefore I had to jump on a
coaching call and she said mom,I have an idea.
She said I think this is what'sworked in my experience.
She's 10.
I was biting my cheek, I'm like, and she goes.
(35:01):
You know, sometimes people canbe sensitive when you tell them
what they're doing wrong.
So what I try to do withLincoln, my brother, is I just
try to say listen, I'm sorry.
What I did in this situationwas she goes.
So maybe you could do that todad first give him a hug, then
(35:21):
apologize and own your stuff.
Just tell him what you didwrong, but don't.
I know you might want to tellthem how he was wrong, but don't
tell them that, because peopledon't really like that, and I
was like oh my gosh this is sowonderful, and.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I needed it so bad.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I was like you just used my words back on me and you
have full permission at anytime to do that, and I needed
that right now because I wasjust going to run into my
coaching session and be like,well, I think I'm right and
we'll discuss this later.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
I still think Home Depot is the place.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yes, but I also want to circle back to John Eldridge,
because I think I remembersomewhere in his book him saying
, like in all of his yearsworking with men and studying
men and masculinity, that hekind of came to this conclusion
about men that there were threethings that that men like,
(36:14):
craved or needed or were madefor.
So maybe you can help me withthis, but it was.
They need a battle to fight, anadventure to pursue and a
beauty to rescue.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I love that.
You know a battle to fight, anadventure to go on and a beauty
to rescue.
It's like man.
If we could keep that top ofmind when we're looking at our
boys and they're saying, pleasejust let me have more video
games.
You know, joey he's onfortnight all the time that we
(36:51):
go.
You know, that's not the thebattle that you really exactly
that's not the adventure we'retalking about here right that's
out there with people and withwith the community and nature,
and pursuing, you know, a, awoman to be your bride and to
win over and to rescue, likethat's so different than I think
(37:13):
what we define as likemasculine and what's going to be
helpful for our boys.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yes, that's great.
I think that there is thattemptation, even unknowingly,
just to be like oh, I just I'mdrawn to video games when we do
that and there is like thatsense of like, look what I'm
accomplishing, right, but likeif I'm accomplishing that in the
digital virtual world, that'sgoing to leave me empty and it's
and it's going to leave meunsure of okay, when I actually
(37:41):
have to step up and express myfeelings for a girl or ask her
dad you know to, may I date yourdaughter, May I marry your
daughter?
Those are the same conversation.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
There's time spread out in there.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
This is part of that year of forming a man, right?
You have these conversationsthat you don't ask to date and
marry a man's daughter in thesame conversation.
Okay, check, you got that sonGreat.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
We have to be clear here, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yes, so so this this whole year can can look like.
Whatever you know, it'sprobably it's going to be an
expression of who you are as adad and the needs and interests
of your, your son, and abilities.
But, to be clear, I was doingthese father-son camping trips
with my son a few years beforethat and I think we were talking
(38:34):
in the last episode.
What does that look like?
My daughter, when she was 10this past year, just even doing
a single overnight camping tripwith her was so amazing for her.
She still talks about it.
It was, you know, us going.
It wasn't a lot of time ormoney, it was a single overnight
we went.
We drove like an hour and ahalf into the mountains.
We pitched camp, we went hiking, we went fishing, we went
(38:58):
stargazing, we werepaddleboarding.
The next day we were, um, yeah,we built a fire, we were
collecting wildflowers to pressthe.
I mean so just all these funthings.
And again one of these, thislittle gift, this pocket knife
that I wrapped up and gave herat the campsite, that, oh, my
(39:20):
goodness, and I, we don't knownecessarily what like are going
to be core memories for our kids, right, but like these, like
that's something that she waslooking for.
The daddy daughter camping trip, dad, you know for years, like,
when is that going to be me?
When is that going to be me?
Um, and you guys, actually, bythe time this airs, I think it
won't be a secret.
So, it's fine, I'm I've alreadyplanned my, my next child in
(39:44):
line.
He's nine right now.
I've planned a father-soncamping trip for him.
That's going to be unique forhim.
Like he's really into dinosaursand fossils, and so we're going
to drive, you know, down, uh,west of colorado springs, to
fluorescent fossil beds nationalmonument to go look, and
there's a place nearby, justdown the road, where you can
actually get a hunk of rock andseparate out and like, look for
(40:06):
your own fossils and you get tokeep them.
And I I'm just like, okay, solike that's, that's my next son,
that's, you know, and there'llbe some some other things too,
and and his first pocket knife.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
That's so good.
And as you're describing theseadventures that you're taking as
one-on-one trips, right, father, son, father, daughter Again,
the thing that that stands outto me is maybe like the most
important kind of setup to thiswhole thing, even more important
than what you're actually doingis just using some simple words
(40:38):
to invite them on thisadventure with you and to help
them feel that special bond andlike this, it's just you and I.
That's right and to be invitedin like that, as a child, and to
be seen and known and wanted inthat way creates such a bond
(41:02):
and connection between you andyour child.
And so, if you're listening tothis and you're going, sean,
you're pressing wildflowers,you're pitching a tent you're
staying overnight.
You're going, paddleboarding andstargazing and all these things
like what.
I can't possibly put all thattogether.
You do it your way.
But I think remember that themost important thing is that you
(41:24):
just have an eye-to-eyeconversation with your child and
and invite them on thisadventure with you and make it
fun, make just connect with eachother one-on-one, without the
distraction of phones and andscrolling and and taking your
work along with you, but justbeing present.
(41:44):
It could be a couple hours, itcould be an overnight, it could
be a week, right, it could be anovernight, it could be a week
Right, sure, yep, but the bondand creating that sense of
belonging and being enough, youknow, in the eyes of your father
or your mother is like hugebefore, just a number of years
(42:13):
ago, just thinking like in thesimplest form, like my job as a
father of children is to expressthe love of God, the father,
for them, like I'm kind ofincarnating God for them.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Right now, the invisible God of the universe,
whom we can't see, like dwellsin me and in whatever imperfect,
weak way I'm striving tocooperate with grace and to let
him, as I'm I'm not a finishedproduct, product either Like God
is still fathering me yes,we're always students, we're
always children.
(42:41):
And to to be able to reflectthe love and the delight of God,
the father, and like how messedup are so many of us because we
we haven't received that andwe're unable to do that for you
know, for our children.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Absolutely, and I think, when you put it in those
terms, that that we arereflecting the love of God, the
father to our children it's justa reminder that this is an
intentional thing, like we haveto be thoughtful about this and
also give ourselves grace thatwe're going to screw up and
we're not going to look justlike God the Father most days.
(43:21):
But, dang to try and to givethat forgiveness, that undivided
attention that I'm always here,no matter what bad thing you do
or awful position you getyourself in, like I'm not going
to leave you, I'm not going toturn my back on you.
Right and and like you said, ifyou come from a broken family
or you or you didn't have afather figure in your life or
(43:42):
you didn't come to know God andJesus until later in your life,
then it can be tricky.
It can be hard to remindyourself that.
Oh yeah, god dwells within me.
You know I have him within meand I am capable of shining his
light on my children.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Yes, and I feel like that brings up like a deeper
question.
Like all of us know people whohave fallen away from the faith,
and I mean I've I was amissionary on college campuses
and so like I mean just likeover and over, it's just like
people who would go to supportour work, cause they're like I
(44:24):
wish you were around when mykids were in college, because
they all left the faith, andit's just, you know, it's so
common, and so I'm also aspeaker.
I'll go to churches and speak.
I'm just trying to betransformed by God's grace and
also to speak that forth to bean encouragement and inspiration
to other people.
But just really, the thought ofwhen people ask the question
(44:46):
like why did my kids leave thefaith?
I thought and I was doingeverything right.
And I think part of it for meis I, I was born and raised in
the faith and then, as a preteen, I'm just kind of like I don't
get this.
Does this matter at all?
Is it?
We're here at the same placesaying the same prayers, like
does this mean anything?
(45:08):
Yes, and then I had anencounter with Jesus personally
that started changing the entiretrajectory and then it was
almost like it was thisawakening of like?
Oh, it's challenging becausethe ancient creed of
Christianity confesses a beliefin things seen and unseen, yes,
in the visible and invisible.
(45:29):
And it's hard because we don'tsee unseen things, we don't
perceive them with our physicalsenses yes and so it becomes
hard to like to dive into that,and so my sense in like
surveying the church sort ofthing is there's more, there's
always more.
They're like if, if we'retempted to be like, oh, this is
(45:50):
just, like you know, boring, andlike you know that this, this
bible, is not just paper and ink, it's, it is the living word,
and that's why we're stillaround, 2 000 years later, like
if it's just a bunch of randomfishermen.
This probably would havefizzled out a little bit ago.
But, but I would say for, for usas parents, is to to be
students, to be, uh, children,to be open and say God, teach me
(46:14):
more, draw me deeper.
You are the desire of my heart,you are the reason why I'm here,
you, you are the fulfillment ofeverything that I was made for
and which is why we'recontinually restless here on
earth.
And we're, you know, we'll onlybe fully seen, fully realized,
in heaven.
And so all that to say is forus, and myself included, to be a
(46:37):
student and to be like God.
I haven't arrived.
I need you to direct me andinflame my heart in the ways
that I live the faith.
So, in terms of, like, formingour children overall, this is, I
guess, unspoken and assumed,but it's too important to leave
unspoken.
Is that striving to live thefaith and make it the priority,
(47:02):
not a priority like the priority, the foundation, the lens
through which we see everything,you know, even above our
relationship with our spouse?
Yes, like God has to beeverything, and then things are
in the right order and thenthings can actually work, you
know, harmoniously.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yes, yes, and so we've done several episodes on
prioritizing God in the busynessof life and just making your
spiritual life a priority, andwe talk about how God is the
well that we drink from so thatwe can pour out his goodness to
our spouse and our kids, and ifwe're drinking from all kinds of
(47:46):
empty wells out there we knowthere's lots of those we're not
going to have.
What it takes, everything'sgoing to be more difficult, it's
going to feel like we're justsludging through life and that,
you know, this is just reallyhard.
And I think, like you said, likemaking it a priority to be a
(48:06):
student of your faith and to beconstantly learning, to realize
we're never going to arrive atthis place where we don't need
God anymore.
We don't need, you know,scripture, we don't need small
groups or Bible studies or smallgroups of parents that we get
together Like.
This is the lifelong like wewere meant for, you know,
(48:27):
continual learning and drawingcloser to him and community, a
sense of community.
So, circling back with the riteof passage, it's so beautiful
that you include other people inthis rite of passage with your
son Andrew and just saying, like, look like, besides me there
are other men who are investedin you and who believe in you,
and that is such a beautifulthing.
Besides me, there are other menwho are invested in you and who
(48:48):
believe in you, and that issuch a beautiful thing.
I mean, that's what life isabout is having a bunch of
people in your corner who arecheering you on and have that
faith in you that maybe youdon't have in yourself.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Yes, well, and so I think there are a few different
facets there.
There's a good to be had justin hey, here's, here's a new
skill that's.
That's helpful for me to knowas a man.
But the unspoken aspect ofbringing another person in is
that they're also witnessing.
This is how I live my faith,this is how I treat people, this
is how you know, just in all ofour different temperaments and
(49:26):
sensibilities and you know,personality and all that
Everyone lives it differentlyand it's it is really helpful to
have that reinforced and belike they're living it.
They're living it.
And then, even beyond that,there's there's a sort of
affirmation Like you know, theguys were like, oh yeah, I
remember so when we were on the,on the mountain.
(49:46):
Like you know, like Andrew'sdoing so well, like we had.
He had to wait up for us oldguys, sort of thing.
You know, he was just like.
So you know the sort ofaffirmation, or like, or
somebody was like, oh you know,I was really struck by how, you
know how humble you were, andrew, like in this scenario, and so
that's priceless.
And yet another thing there wasone guy I just overheard this
(50:09):
and he said he's like Andrew Idon't know if you realize how
amazing it is Like you've hitthe jackpot with your dad, like
that he's doing this, like isphenomenal.
And so I didn't ask him to saythat.
You know, and he's justaffirming, and it's I mean,
(50:30):
teenage years are hard, they'regoing to be hard, probably hard,
no matter what I mean.
And honestly, even like youknow, a few years after, like
you know, there's still thestruggle, they're still
struggling to know themselves,and you know.
But, but my wife noticed adifference, the before and after
.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
It just and I noticed a difference too, like where
there's a little bit of kind oflike I don't know what is it?
Speaker 2 (50:56):
The Oedipus and Electra complexes you know going
on in our homes, you know.
So, as far as Andrew and I likekind of you know clashing a
little bit, she was like, oh, Inoticed a difference Like that
that brought an element to ourhis and my relationship that was
life-changing.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Oh, thank you for sharing that, because that's
when I talked to parents about,you know, teenagers kind of
bumping heads with parents, andespecially with boys.
It is in that phase where theparents are like I don't know
what his problem is, like Idon't, he's just been so
disrespectful.
And what I've come to realizeis it's that phase where,
(51:35):
internally, the boy knows thatit's time to become a man.
It's time to break away, to havehis own thoughts, to make his
own decisions, to be able to beindependent of his parents, and
so that's where this tensionhappens.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
And so.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
I often would tell parents that means he's ready
for the next level.
He's ready for a challenge.
He has become stagnant andinternally he's not meant for
that stagnant kind of like justbeing served all the time.
He's ready to serve, he's readyto serve, he's ready to rise up
and do something you knowchallenging, and so what's the
(52:14):
next thing that he could go for?
And they're like Jordan, thathelped me.
We got him into jujitsu, or youknow, he decided he wanted to
start doing 14ers, or we.
We took him over to ourfriend's house and they ended up
working on cars every Saturdayfor a couple of months, you know
.
And then that tension goes awaybecause they get that
(52:36):
independence and they realizewhat they're capable of and what
your wife witnessed is a realthing, and we want that for our
kids parents, right, we wantthis.
We want to raise them up and asthey should go, right, as it
says in scripture, and and wewant them to become independent
(52:57):
of us and um, go out and be sentout into the world with the
skills that they need to to feelcapable and confident in in the
roles that God gave them.
I like that.
Speaker 2 (53:10):
Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
Yeah, that's where the rub comes from.
It's just like I feel this needto give myself, but I don't
know how or what or when.
Yeah, you're making me think ofthat, just this overall notion,
and I feel like it should belike a mantra for us as men.
But like a man's strength ismeant for others, what the
(53:32):
strength, the gifts that youhave, men, are meant for other
people.
Not that that means we neglectourselves, we don't love
ourselves, that we don't stay ina good place with God, but like
, when we're in a good placewith God, then Jesus Christ
reveals man to himself.
(53:52):
And so when we're inrelationship, that's that's how
we're going to be in the right,we're going to find our place in
the universe, as it were, ourrightful place, and then then
that frees us up to be able tohow do we serve?
And honestly, just in the pastfew months, for me, one of the
themes in my own personal dailyprayer is wow, look at these.
(54:15):
This, this scripture came tomind.
It says for the son of man camenot to be served, but to serve
and to give his life as a ransomfor many, and I'm like that's,
I guess.
And then the other sense is likeit's not just that we as
Christians are like oh, jesus,say you know, died on a cross
2000 years ago and saved us,would actually be made saints,
(54:37):
that we would become, as CSLewis said, little Christs, that
we would imitate Christ so muchthat we, however slowly you
(54:58):
know, gradually that the HolySpirit can purify us and make us
who we're meant to be and thatwe're, you know, striving after
virtue.
And so, anyway, I've just beenthinking about that theme and it
it just keeps getting deeper.
Another scripture came to meyesterday and I was journaling
about where St Paul said I amhappy to spend and to be spent
(55:18):
for your souls you know, andthen like, and then I'm just
thinking about all these otherconnected scriptures, like
greater love has no man thanthis, than he lay down his life
for his friends.
And like, I think, in a specialway, like you and I know as
parents, like yeah for yeah forfriends and neighbors, but like
applying that in a particularway, like if we fail, if we fail
(55:39):
our children, nobody else isgoing to pick up the slack,
that's right.
Like these amazing innocent ornot so innocent depending on the
way people are, depending, youknow, like it's a life and death
scenario sort of thing.
And so I'm just, I'm justconvicted more and more that my
entire life is and again, not toneglect myself or my own needs,
(56:03):
but like to be in a place wherehow do I anticipate my wife and
her needs, how do I love her inthat and things, great and
small, and all the thanklesstasks that we have as parents.
And you know, I want to teachmy kids gratitude and at the
same time, I it's fine that theydidn't acknowledge that I was
doing their dishes when they hadkitchen, or you know, or they
(56:24):
didn't acknowledge that I justspent all this time cooking and
they just, you know, didn't evensay thank you.
Anyway, there's all of thatkind of rolled up into life and
how we're called to serve, andhopefully that model will
eventually also be caught sothat they can see this is what
it means to pour one's life outfor others.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
Such a great way to wrap this up.
And we talked about boysbecoming men, and so boys really
learning how to be warriors andservants right To be able to
fight the battles, to protecttheir families, to be able to
stand firm for their faithbecause in my opinion, that's
(57:05):
what it means to be a warrior.
Right Is to put on the armor ofGod and to be able to defend
your faith and to stand firm init when culture's throwing you
all these curve balls andtemptations.
But also to be able to be justa servant a servant to your
spouse, a servant to your kids,and to be out and do new
(57:28):
challenges and to be invited byyour father to rise up and to
learn these things is justequipping them more and more to
be more like Christ, and I lovethat.
That is just like the dream,right.
That's what we're called to doas parents.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yes, and again, like this year of masculine
initiation was a kind of asnapshot, like it was a
particularly intense time ofinvestment, but yeah, it does
assume that it started before.
It's going to continue after.
Uh.
And just in in brief, just tosay I've been wondering as a dad
, like what do I do for mydaughters?
I have four daughters.
(58:07):
I'm like what does that looklike for them?
It's not going to look the samelike my.
My wife should take the thelead for that.
And somebody else was alsosaying like a woman's body
changes, like they don't have tobe told they're a woman.
There's actually somethinginternal that uh lends them to
the notion.
Yeah, you know that, that theyare now a woman, but, at the
(58:27):
same time, knowing, knowing likedads.
It's so significant for us toinvest in our sons.
It's one of the most importantfactors us being present, and
for our daughters, it's alsoperhaps the most important
factor for us to be present tothem.
And so, like, yeah, I dosimilar things.
(58:47):
Things I do daddy daughtercamping trips and as my, I think
I told you just briefly becausethis is so good when my
daughter was 15 and neededdriving hours and be like, oh
okay, we're gonna cram all thisin, we're gonna go do a road
trip and you're gonna drive thewhole way and you know, we're
gonna drive from here to tosouth dakota and camp in the
badlands for free, free camping,camping out there.
(59:08):
We're going to drive throughthe black Hills and, you know,
camp somewhere else and like hitall these other.
So it was just like fun andspontaneous and uh and also
practically they got theirdriving hours.
My, my daughter, my oldestdaughter, who's now almost 19,.
She looks back and she's likethat was so fun and like it just
gave her such confidence as a,as a driver.
(59:28):
But also just to say like Itake my daughter on coffee dates
or ice cream dates anddifferent, we just have this
great open conversation andshe's now like fast forward.
I've told you like she's nowengaged to be married, which is
also another thing Like am Iready for to be a grandparent
Right.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
I can't even Ready to be a grandparent Right.
Speaker 2 (59:48):
I can't even fathom that, ready or not, man, ready
or not, that's all of life.
But just the sense of lookingback in terms of initiation.
My daughter is now echoing backand saying, dad, it was you who
taught me how.
To date, it was your examplethat had me hold these high
standards for what a Christianman should be.
You know, you're the one who'staught me, you're taught me, how
(01:00:11):
to say I'm sorry and conflictresolution and have confidence
and like.
So I hadn't known these thingsuntil you know the.
She just so happened toarticulate this after the fact.
So I guess then, in summary,just the sense of like how, how
do we, as parents summary, justthe sense of like how, how do we
, as parents, be present andintentional and then let the
(01:00:33):
Holy spirit help, help us in allthe, in all the other details?
but to be present and to belooking for opportunities to
show love.
Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
Thank you for kind of fast forwarding for us and
showing us like this intentionaltime counts and it and it paves
the way.
It may seem insignificant atthe time.
Oh, I'm taking my daughter toice cream once a month, or, you
know, we do one trip everysummer.
Don't underestimate that.
(01:01:00):
That little drop in the bucketripples out and, like you said,
shapes them for their future andfor your daughter to be able to
come back and be like thank you, dad, like you, you did that,
like, oh, that's what we allhope for.
You know, not that we get thecredit, but that we can see the
(01:01:20):
fruit.
And even if we can't see thefruit, we need to be steadfast
in persevering and being anintentional parent, because we
know that it's the right thingto do.
Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
Yes and again, like the sort of urgency I know you
and I have said in the past,like you always say, like you
only have 18 summers with themwhere that that statistic that
says like, on average, by thetime they're 18, you will have
spent 90% of the time you willever spend with them on earth?
And you're like, oh, okay, okay, that that's a little, that's
(01:01:52):
sobering, like you've got myattention now.
Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely Well, sean, thanks
for sharing your journey, your,your, your masculinity and just
your connections with yourdaughters.
This has just been such a gift.
And, parents, if you'relistening, I hope you feel
inspired that you don't have tohave it all figured out, you
don't have to have a perfectplan, but just make a point, to
(01:02:14):
just start and to do something,because you won't regret that.
Sean, how can people kind ofconnect with you?
Where's the best way for themto kind of find you and your
guided adventures that you do inColorado and beyond?
Where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
Yes, so probably most easily on windsweptco is the
website and you can see promovideos for what we do, just all
sorts of fun activities, andthen also resources online for
all of us busy parents.
So, no matter where you live,just to inspire and give you
ideas for, yeah, know, for allof us busy parents for, so, no
matter where you live, uh, justto to inspire and give you ideas
for, yeah, how do I beintentional, whether it's
(01:02:53):
overnight or just even like Igot two or three hours, how do
we be creative with whatever'saround us, to be, to be
intentional with our kids.
So windsweptco, uh, is a greatplace.
And then, um, sean Garrison S HA U N uh, garrisoncom is my, my
music site, just as kind of anaside uh, music on Spotify and
(01:03:16):
Amazon and Apple music andthings like that.
So feel free to check that outif you're interested.
Uh, but, yes, happy to be ableto to connect with you If you
have any specific questions.
I, um I don't know if I toldyou this a friend of mine that I
know she lives in Nevada andshe's like we're living in the
middle of nowhere, sean.
Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
But I had this idea.
Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Like I want.
I was wondering if you wouldcome out and lead a father
daughter camping trip and alsojust like give talks to the guys
and just you know, talk aboutintentional parent, and I'm like
I would absolutely be open todo that.
So that will be coming up inthe next few months and it's
just another new thing and I'mjust happy to to kind of show up
and even just yeah, to maketime and space, you know, for
(01:04:00):
these guys and for their kidsand just try to help them be
creative and and intentionalwith wherever they're.
So you know, so, if people andother people have called me
actually after our last podcastsome people called me and be
like hey, how about you know?
We live in, you know, newEngland, we live in Houston,
texas Like, what are someoptions for us?
Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
Oh, that's great.
Contact Sean Y'all if you'relistening and going.
Okay, I just want to run thisidea by someone or or?
I've got a group of of mothersand daughters or or fathers and
sons already that we just need aguide to come in and kind of
help us with that.
Sean is your guy, okay, soreach out to him.
Is there an email that peoplecould reach you at?
Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Oh yes, Sean S-H-A-U-N at windsweptco.
Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Windsweptco Awesome.
Well, all of that is linked inour show notes below as well, so
you can click below thisepisode to find all the links to
Sean Garrison, windswept treksand any other resources that
might be helpful for you.
Listen, your son was nevermeant to wander into manhood.
(01:05:11):
Okay, he was meant to be ledthere.
So take the first step, beintentional, be prayerful, as we
talked about, and remember youare not alone on this journey.
God has equipped you for thismission.
You are the exact right parentfor your children and let's just
raise up a generation of menwho know who they are and know
(01:05:36):
whose they are.
I'll catch you on anotherepisode of our show real soon.
Thanks for joining us.
How will your son know when he's become a man?
If you're raising a boy, stopand really think about that,
because chances are he won't.
You know, most boys today growup without a clear moment where
they step out of boyhood andinto manhood.
(00:20):
They age but don't arrive, andthat's a problem, a big one.
Without a rite of passage, boysare left to figure it out on
their own, and that confusionleads to what we're seeing
everywhere Men who are lost,anxious, emotionally fragile,
unsure of their role anddisconnected from purpose.
(00:44):
But it wasn't always this way.
For centuries, fathers andtrusted men in communities used
to lead boys through intentionalexperiences, rites of passage
that marked the transition fromboy to man, and these were
really powerful defining moments.
(01:06):
They taught him, they testedhim, they challenged him and
they showed him how to lead,love, protect, provide, to be
both warrior and servant.
And this is how boys used tobecome men.
But in today's culture that'sgone.
(01:28):
We're seeing the fallout inevery generation.
So if you're a parent raising ason, you can't afford to skip
this episode.
It's time to rediscover whatboys have always needed and what
we must be intentional about asparents reclaiming.
So today I have on our showSean Garrison.
(01:51):
He's in studio with me, so ifyou're listening, flip over to
our YouTube channel so you cancheck us out.
We're sitting side by side hereand Sean is going to talk to us
about this very issue rites ofpassage.
So welcome back to the Familyas a Character show.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Thank you so much, Jordan.
I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yes, guys, Sean is, like I said, a return guest.
He runs an organization calledWindswept Treks and they offer
guided outdoor excursions forthe purpose of connecting
parents with their kids,creating new memories,
disconnecting from technologyand being immersed in our
(02:31):
beautiful natural world.
And Sean is not only an avidoutdoorsman, but he's also a
husband and father to six, withhis own experience of fathering
sons.
So we're going to dive rightinto this topic.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Okay, yes.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Sean, tell us why is this topic of rites of passage
sort of important to you.
Tell us, kind of, where we'redeveloping these rites of
passage and leading kids through.
This came from for you.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yes, I would say it comes from the struggle.
It comes from Socrates sayingknow thyself.
And so really it's my ownstruggle with growing up and
it's funny because you'retalking about, like you know,
here are all the problems thatcan happen, you know, with kids
(03:26):
and, and to my right is anexample of of a broken human
being, of how, of how confusedmales can get.
So I come from a broken family.
I come from someone who hasfather wounds, who has who is
not.
I think my dad did get somethings right and he did some
(03:48):
great things and but I see how Istruggled and how I was
confused and how I didn't knowmyself.
I didn't have any North Star, Ididn't have any any clear sense
of what life is, who I am,what's my purpose here.
So, in the grand scheme ofthings and that does become
(04:08):
severely problematic for us, ifyou know here we find ourselves
on a stage and we're like what,what's the story, what's my,
what's my part in this?
And and so I guess, back in theearly two thousands, I came
across a book called wild atheart by John.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Eldridge.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
And the subtitle is Discovering the Secret of a
Man's Soul and Jordan.
When I read that, it soresonated with me, it just gave
me this sort of self-knowledge.
I mean, he even speaks of howEve was created in the garden,
in a cultivated space, and Adamcame from the wilderness.
And in a cultivated space andAdam came from the wilderness.
And so there is a sense wheremen were made for the wilderness
(04:49):
, in a sense, and like ourrugged characteristics are made
for wildness.
I mean there are elements thatneed to be, you know, tamed and
directed and redirected, and allthat.
But part of what struck me aboutJohn Eldredge he says that
(05:13):
there is an aspect of initiationthat needs to happen that
oftentimes doesn't happenexactly.
You articulated that so well atthe beginning and that he goes
so far as to say that most menwalking around in today's
society are boys walking aroundin men's bodies, which is like,
oh, okay.
And then even the sense of youknow the people who are like,
who may not question, like, oh,I'm a man, I'm like, you know, I
(05:35):
drive a big truck and whatever,like you know, you know what
our society, what our culture,like the poisonous ideas of like
this is what it means you knowand to have you know, to use my
strength to you know, bedomineering over other people
and be like that timeout that is, that's not the thing, right,
exactly.
So I had read that book when Iwas, you know, in my mid
(05:56):
twenties and I'm like, oh mygosh, this gives me so much
self-knowledge and just thesense of, oh I have.
These are the my father woundsand struggles, my, you know,
confused sense of self that hascome from not having a clear
path forward and then fastforward.
(06:20):
I blinked and I'm like, wait, Ihave children and I have a son
who's like preteen now and like,oh, what, what happened to
those books?
And, like you know that I hadread 20 years ago, um, and so I
started, uh, rereading.
And the other thing, so, um, soEldridge wrote, uh, wild at
heart.
And then he followed up withthis book the way of the wild
heart.
It was re-released, uh, underthe title fathered by God.
And he goes through this, thisbrilliant, uh idea of, okay, if,
(06:44):
if our culture lacks rites ofpassage, how do we create them?
Because, like you're saying, weneed something.
He says, otherwise the boy willkind of wander through life and
he'll always have that naggingquestion Do I have what it takes
?
Yes, and so, like this sort ofreally this insecurity yes that
(07:07):
can be hiding behind.
You know all sorts of puffed up,you know facades of like oh
yeah, that guy's totally a man.
Yeah, he obviously knows whatit means and we can't assume
that you know, we can't and so.
So he lays out, uh, this, thispath.
For I guess, guess basically anexample.
He was like here's a year ofmasculine initiation that I did
(07:29):
with my son so that it wouldtake him from you're a boy now
and I'm going to invest in youwith other men, to the point
where, at the end of this year,you will be able to confidently
say I am.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
An entire year of initiationfrom boyhood to manhood, like a
series of rites of passages.
It sounds like.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yes, and I guess the background is there's assumed
that we're loving our childrenfrom day one, that we're
investing in them, that we're,you know, establishing that
we've established theserelationships and that we have
affection for our children andthat they know that, that they
are loved and respected, and allthat, yeah.
But really it came, uh, againfast forward.
(08:15):
I'm like, oh, time's upon usand so my son, uh, is getting
into his early teens, and I'm so.
So I'm like, how do you, how doI do this?
Like there's an idea, I likewhat Eldridge did, and then I
looked up and there's some otherresources that are just talking
about.
Like, yeah, definitely thereare ways to be able to involve
other men into this.
And so, yeah, let's explainbasically what I did with my son
(08:37):
Between his 14th and 15thbirthdays, that I set that as
his, his year of initiation.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Um, so like.
So that's again we're.
We're loving our kids all theall the way up into this, but
this is a year of particularinvestment, of particular
intentionality to say, okay,we're.
It's going to be like sharedadventures and camping trips and
and fishing and mountain bikingand you know, and and eating
fun snacks and going explore newplaces and and and having
(09:09):
conversations about, aboutscripture and about life and
about uh, I know I was bringingin these other men, um, to
basically teach him a skill, soI'll, I'll go back to that, but
so, basically, on the, the nightof his 14th birthday, I had
prefaced this before.
I was like Andrew.
There's this year of masculineinitiation.
(09:30):
I want to invite you into this.
Are you willing to be part ofit?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
I love it.
The invitation.
You asked him.
You told him what it was andthen you said I want to invite
you into this.
That's right, Would you join meon this journey?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
With obviously a lot of unknowns and question marks
and like what all does this meanor entail, right, but I think
maybe that's almost like amicrocosm of the adventure of
all of life.
I mean, john Eldridge says toyou like a man is never more of
a man than when he walks into abattle that he's not sure of
winning, of an adventure he'snot sure of.
(10:08):
You know, like he's unsure of,like into the.
I mean it would be justfalseness to be like and you can
plan your entire life andcontrol it, right, like an air
conditioned.
You know we can.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
You got it all figured out before you start.
No, there's no adventure inthat, or?
Any challenge in that orreality.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
So so I invited him and he said yes, and and I kind
of left it at that.
And then the night of hisbirthday I said okay, andrew,
it's time for you to go with me.
So I was like okay, and so thatwe went to.
I had a friend of mine's nearbyand he had this big outdoor
fire going and this I thinkthere may be six or seven other
(10:51):
guys, trusted Christian friendsof mine who are part of this and
he was like there and I kind ofyou can make it.
You know you can adapt this tohowever you want to do this with
your kids.
You know your kids' personality.
But I kind of made it a littlebit formal.
I crafted it.
(11:11):
My father-in-law is a deaconalso and so he came with like
with a book of blessings and atthe end like said a special
blessing for him.
But basically just the mainthrust was you are now a boy.
But basically just the mainthrust was you are now a boy,
but these friends of mine aregoing to walk and I are going to
walk with you to bring you tothis point where you are a man,
(11:33):
you are in the company of menwith us, and I think, yeah, that
other sense.
Maybe it was Eldridge who saidyou know, a woman can never
bestow masculinity upon a man.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
And that's that might .
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I'm curious your thoughts of like.
I mean, how confused does ourculture get when, when the man's
like I'm trying to prove myselfby Right yeah, that's not
possible.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
It's just not possible.
That's why this community ofmen trusted men that are in your
community and that that yourson knows as well is vital.
It's crucial to kind of mentorthem along and to be on the
journey with them.
Yeah, I'm a woman.
I don't know about this stuff,you know.
I mean and it's sad for me, forsingle mothers who are trying
(12:17):
to give their sons a richexperience, you know, If you're
listening and that's you I wouldhighly recommend you connect
with some supportive Christianmen that are in your son's
circle and ask them to help youwith this.
What a beautiful gift for a manto be able to mentor another
(12:39):
boy and to step in as a littlebit of that father figure and
just that trusted male companion.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Absolutely.
That's a fantastic idea.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
So you kicked off the 14th birthday with a little
bonfire with a group of guysthat you know, some blessings
over your son, and then youreally I heard you use the words
to him like you are a boy now,use the words to him like you
(13:11):
are a boy now.
But this journey is meant tobring you along the path to
arrive at manhood, Like you arebecoming a man, son, and like as
a mom.
I just love to hear thatbecause I think when we speak
directly to our kids in theseways, in these terms, it brings
a whole new reality to them andand it kind of helps them to
level up right, To rise up.
Oh, somebody thinks I'm capableof this, Somebody invest, is
(13:34):
investing in me and believesthat I am, I'm made for more,
that it's time for me to leavemy boyish ways behind and take
on this identity, this God-givenpurpose.
Woo, so good.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yes, and I guess, just to qualify too, I think it
may depend on the particularindividual.
You know the boy in terms ofwhat age you do that at, but
just for what it's worth forAndrew, it ended up being the
perfect time for him.
So it was like 14, he was ineighth grade and then, you know,
(14:10):
15, he's in high school.
So it's that it's moving himfrom middle school to high
school.
I think he grew like six inches, like there was just a lot of
for him, that just like I thinkhe could, that just it was
fitting for him yes, yeah, butjust to know that there's
flexibility there for.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Sure, some of them may need this earlier.
Maybe they are already lookinglike a man, right, they've
matured earlier and they'rebigger.
They got facial hair, they'rethey're ready.
They're ready for the nextlevel, and so it may be at 12 or
13 that this, this happens forthem, and certainly there's
going to be some boys that maybeyou know it's going to be 15 or
(14:48):
16.
But I think the point is toencourage them along, to start
somewhere, right?
There's no perfect timeline,right?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Right, right, right, yeah, exactly, and I think I
mean this is such a, this is anovel idea for us in our culture
.
So, for I know some dads wouldbe kind of like, oh, they found
out about this and they're like,oh, I wish I would have done
something like this, but nowit's too late and I I think
there's there's, there's no suchthing as too late in the grand
scheme of I have today, I havethe present moment.
(15:19):
God, you know my gifts and mylimitations, yeah, and the other
thing that I'll say, Jordan, islike I said, I had some ideas,
but I really felt like the wholeyear I was kind of winging it.
I'm like this is worth pursuing, but I don't claim to have
super organized, yeah, but whichalso allowed space for God, the
(15:42):
Father, to father me andprovide for me in the midst of
my poverty, in the midst of mylack of preparedness, or you
know, or whatever.
But I mean God, you know that'sof us being spirit led people,
you know that we leave space andwe express our need, like our
poverty, like God, you have toshow up.
(16:03):
I only got five loaves and twofish.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
And it's not enough.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
What I have is not enough, but you can make it more
than enough.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I love that because if you're listening and you're
thinking, oh, I got to have thisall planned out and prepared
and ready to present the fullplan you know, signed, sealed,
delivered on the 14th birthdayno, please listen to what Sean's
saying.
He's saying it's reallyimportant for us to leave room
for the Holy Spirit to inspireus to maybe change our mind.
(16:34):
Maybe we thought this was goingto be a great idea, to do this
one certain thing and the HolySpirit goes.
You know what?
You know, your son has alwaysmentioned guitar or something.
This is a challenge, but thiscould be something that you know
brings him great joy for therest of his life.
So what about challenging himto grow and and develop the
skill of playing the guitar?
(16:54):
Maybe that you thought it wasgoing to be camping and rough,
rugged stuff, but maybe God says, yeah, a little bit of that and
a little bit of this, right.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
So, just giving yourself permission to not have
it all figured out when youstart absolutely well and yeah,
just to build on that point, Iguess, maybe to finish up.
So the the opening ceremony.
So it was his birthday.
He had already received someother birthday gifts, but he got
a few other gifts.
That night, in front of theother men, it was like open this
up.
Oh, it's a sleeping bag.
(17:24):
Okay, this is speaking ofthings to come in this year.
Oh, I just opened a rockclimbing harness.
Okay.
Oh, blaze orange hunting vestOkay.
So now there's this sort ofmystery and anticipation, like
okay, what sort of adventuresare in store?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
for this year.
Oh, that is so awesome.
I've heard of men giving theirsons, maybe even after one of
these adventures, kind of like atrophy, like a Gerber
multi-tool or a knife, theirfirst knife.
But I like starting off theyear with a few tools that they
(18:06):
are going to need for thesejourneys Because, like you said,
it creates that sense ofanticipation.
And, oh, he's given me threethings that are three different
kind of adventures.
He really trusts that I'm goingto be able to do this, like
he's already invested in me andbelieves that I'm going to make
it to the third challenge orwhatever I imagine that is just
(18:29):
such a beautiful message for ayoung boy to receive, especially
from their father.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yes, and so kind of going on.
So then the idea is like inthat whole year, so yeah, it's
capped by the opening ceremonyand the closing ceremony, which
for us was at the same exactplace, also a bonfire at night
with those guys.
So on his birthday both timesit's so I guess all the other
(18:56):
guys, I asked them, I said hey,can you be present?
Yeah, for opening and closingceremony.
And then I know everyone's busy, but can you just, let's say,
even one afternoon somewhereduring that whole year, can you
take Andrew and teach him askill?
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
And so so I was reading about this, you can
Google a hundred things a manshould know and some of those
lists have you know differentitems on there, uh, from like
basic things like here's how youtie a tie, here's how you cook
an egg, here's how you change atire, here's how you field dress
a deer, like I mean, like allthe way you know the gamut of
(19:36):
things.
And so I think, even since then, jordan, I've learned like, yes
, even those practical learning,those practical skills, builds
confidence in a man, yes, who'smeant, if we're meant to protect
, provide, serve and do allthese things, it's helpful to
know how to do those things.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
So, and I mean for me , like coming into home
ownership and like, oh my gosh,I do not know how to do a lot of
these things, it becomes anaspect of frustration, like I
don't, oh, like I don't, oh, man, I don't have what it takes.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
You know this.
I thought I could fix thissprinkler.
No, it's you know, and, andhonestly, john Eldridge talks
about his own frustration.
He's just like like fixing asprinkler or these other home,
like, become a point of like oh,these are still my wounds?
I don't.
My dad never taught me how todo these things.
(20:30):
I don't know so, and YouTube isnot a sufficient fatherhood.
Fatherly presence Like YouTubecan teach you you know some
plumbing and electricity andthings you know.
You know basic wiring, butthat's, that's the.
The skills are helpful butthey're not the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
It's not mentorship, it's not that one-to-one here.
I'm going to show you, I'mgoing to have you do it and you
know, with me here, and then youdo it on your own.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yes, right, yes.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
That I do it, we do it, you do it kind of mentorship
.
I love it.
Okay, so what kinds of thingsdid these men show up to teach
Andrew?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yes, and I'm just looking at you know these, this
diverse group of guys and someyou know some, some younger than
me, some about my age, some alittle bit older, and be like
guys, I'm totally open towhatever you know.
One of the guys was like I'mreally good at finance.
I'm like you could teach himhow to you know, look, you know,
deal with this, checking, youknow, basic things like that.
(21:29):
A friend of mine was like Iwant to meet Andrew at this cafe
and I'm going to teach him howto pray with scripture, and I'm
like that is awesome, thank you.
And then some of the other likeskills came from like a group of
us guys would go on a 14er,like we'd go climb a mountain
and do a camping trip once everysummer, and so andrew came into
(21:53):
that group and, um and soactually that was toward the end
of the year and there was a a14 000 foot mountain.
That's, uh, not just a hike,it's more hand over hand
climbing, like, like risk, likerisk, like big fall potential,
uh, so that.
But that was part of his bigchallenge.
Like I'm inviting you into this.
(22:15):
There is real risk involved,wow, uh, and you know, and I'm
bringing these other guys arewith me in a company, and so
that all became part of theshared experience.
And lo and behold how the Lordprovides we got a flat tire.
Thank you, lord.
Thank you so much.
I've been meaning for Andrew tolearn how to change a tire and
(22:38):
here's you know out in themiddle of nowhere.
Everyone says you need to bereally specific about what you
pray for, Cause we ended upgetting a second flat tire and
we did not have another spare.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
So so it ended up getting a second flat tire, and
we did not have another spare.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
So so it also involves, you know, another
change of tire, like trying topatch, trying to slowly drive,
to get it anyway.
Um, but that was the otherpoint that I wanted to mention
is the sense of like.
Adventure is, uh, I may havementioned this, gk Chesterton,
and adventure, by definition, issomething that comes to us, not
(23:13):
something that we choose.
So, so if on that particularhike that was like okay and um,
another, the, if you guys knowthe Patagonia clothing company,
the guy who founded it, yvonneChouinard, uh, he was saying in
a documentary, saying in adocumentary he's like I think
adventure that word is overusedhe's like, to me, adventure is
(23:34):
when things go wrong.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yes, that's so true, and those are the best learning
moments.
I can remember just taking mysons to Nebraska.
And Parker was just learning todrive and he was 15 and he's
driving the car and we get inthe only patch of the journey
(23:57):
where there's no cell receptionthere's no shoulders on the
two-lane highway and all of asudden he's driving along and
I'm like, oh no.
I said, is that the radio, thestatic on the radio or something
he's like no, something bad'shappened.
He pulls over and and, like theI I don't know what you call
this, but some metal pan on thebottom of the front of the car
(24:22):
had like dropped down and wasdragging on the ground and I'm
sitting here going through allthe worst case scenarios.
Sean, I'm like some load ofdudes is going to come by and,
like you, know, assault me andtie up my children and we're
going to be left for dead.
And there's no cell reception,you know.
And in the meantime my sons getout of the car and they're
(24:43):
wandering the ditches lookingfor ways to fix this piece of
metal that's hanging off the carbecause we don't have any
clippers or any anything to cutthis thing off so we could keep
going.
And they find a blown out tireand it's got the you know tread
there's some tread that's kindof pulled off and the, the
wiring that's in the rubber, andso they grabbed a piece of that
(25:06):
, got under the car and tiedthat thing back up.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
With a piece of the tire and I thought this was the
best trip ever, and I called myhusband as soon as I got cell
reception.
I'm like you're not going tobelieve what happened.
He's like oh no, it soundsterrible.
What did you guys do?
And then he was like that wasawesome.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
That you could have never planned never.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
And then they got to the gas station and they had to
ask for some pliers because thatthat little thing didn't work
and it was gonna work wasn'tgonna work for the long haul.
So they're like we, we actuallyhave to cut this whole thing
off and just put it in the trunkbecause it's causing so many
issues.
And the lady was not nice aboutit and they were like geez,
that was a rough conversation.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
And again I'm like yes, another adventure.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
So you can't plan these things.
But this is what buildscharacter right To have to have
the courage and the confidenceand to challenge yourself, to
push yourself beyond the limitsof what you believe you're
capable of.
And when we build up thosereservoirs of courage and
confidence, it spills out whenwe get older and we're faced
(26:16):
with really difficult decisionsrelationships, you know
pornography, you know should Iskim off the top of my business?
You know, like all theseopportunities, that you could
take shortcuts or do somethingthat's tempting but definitely
not right.
That if we've built up thisreservoir of of uh, you know
(26:37):
courage and honesty andconfidence and we know other
people believe in us, then Ithink it's easier to say no to
the really difficult things.
You know when easier to say noto the really difficult things.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
you know when, when they are men.
Yes, you're making me think, um, my uh, stepdad is a great
handyman and I'm just likeamazed at the things that he can
build and fix and all that andsome of the things that he said
is just like it's.
It's not that you you know, likeat a young age he didn't just
know how to do all these things.
It's that you show up andyou're like how do I find a
(27:10):
creative solution based on whatwe have, which is exactly what
your boys did, digging around inthe ditch.
I love that and imagine thesort of confidence and be like
this is all we got.
Yes, like MacGyver.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
We got to make do with what's right here in front
of us.
What a skill we got to make dowith what's right here in front
of us.
What a skill.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
That's right, and I've heard other guys who are
like really handy in terms of,like you know, home, home repair
sort of thing, and like no,that is or so, home repair or
like, if you live on a farm andbe like that, you only got so
much.
Yeah, so you, you become good atinnovating and adapting and so
and I think that's that's thesort of thing that you're saying
(27:50):
that that builds confidence andlike, and we're modeling that
hopefully for our sons and thenwe're inviting them into live
that and hopefully there's youknow, there's even value when we
collectively are in that spaceof the unknown, and then
hopefully our kids will see usstill be confident and hopeful
(28:11):
that there's a solution, eventhough at this moment we don't
see any solution.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yes, that's so important, like you said, to
model that hope and thatconfidence that there is an
answer.
We might not have hit on it yet, but, son, we're going to get
in here and we're going tofigure this out together.
Like what's the worst that canhappen, we have to call for
professional help.
Okay, we'll give ourselves thatpermission to do that after
(28:37):
we've tried all these things.
But I think, um, from what I'veseen as as just being a
counselor, you know, kids reallyare watching us all the time.
They are picking up on ourvibes and if we're like, oh,
that's the last thing I needed,you know, when we get a flat
tire, you will hear them say thesame sorts of things, you know.
(28:59):
And so it's important for us toto just be working on developing
our own character, too, andgrowing in virtue where we go.
Okay, how are we going tohandle this?
Right, it's kind of thatinternal conversation and then
you spit out like, all right, wegot to figure this out.
Right, with confidence.
You just say this is justwhat's what we're dealing with
(29:20):
right now and how are we goingto move forward in order to get
the outcome that we want?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
that's right, yes so I think there there is a balance
.
Like you know, when we're, ifyou're like doing high altitude
mountaineering, there, there arevery real dangers.
You know that that could belife and death, and like like
being prepared, but at the sametime, like yeah, how do we?
Yeah For you, for us, asparents like be creative, be
(29:46):
open to going to like to takerisks.
I mean especially for our boys,need risks and the notion of
like, like, get out, like in thefour walls of our home where we
can control the temperature andwe feel safe and all that
there's.
That's kind of an illusion, solike.
So there's, there's somethinghelpful to be dropped in the
middle of you know, highmountains and be like, wow, I'm
(30:09):
actually really small and thereare wildlife that are, you know,
it's way bigger than me andthere are, you know, you know
storms that could come in anddump snow at this time of year
any, any time of year.
Yes, yes, like lightning and allthis, know so, um, yes, so I
(30:30):
think that's a great.
These adventures are amicrocosm and foreshadowing of
the adventure of life in general, which is this giant unknown.
I think our kids, yeah, can,can have this illusion like, oh,
you know, like you know it'shard being a kid and trying to
figure all this stuff out, butyou know but, but our parents,
you know, they have it togetherand I think it's maybe good for
(30:54):
us to be able to say like no,but we, we don't like.
Like life keeps changing, thereare different seasons.
It's kind of like okay, nowwe're moving into another thing
I don't know, right, I mean,mean, and there's like for
people will sometimes say to methey're like oh you know, you
have six kids.
(31:14):
Like so you're a veteran, likeyou figured this out, and be
like, let me stop you rightthere, like that is not how this
works and I've shared with youbefore too.
We, we have a younger set ofkids that are just way different
than the older ones, and we'rewe're having to relearn how to
parent and be like uh, we, theother ones didn't have ADHD and
these other challenges and likeI don't, I don't know, and and
(31:35):
I'm I'm struggling to like I'mnot doing this very gracefully
at times.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Sure, but you're committed to figuring it out
Right and to being intentionalabout next steps.
Right or acknowledging, I don'tknow.
This is brand new territory forme, but I'm willing to journey
along with you and we can figurethis out together.
That's, that's the name of thegame.
It's not about perfectparenting.
It's just about being willingto do better and to journey
(32:05):
alongside your spouse and yourkids and say we are in this, we
are a team together.
Together, we're going to figurethis out.
You have my support, you havemy encouragement, and please
give me some mercy when I tripand fall, because even though
I'm I'm the taller one, theolder one, like this is a
lifelong thing, is we're?
We're going to fail at stuff,but we got to keep trying Big
(32:27):
time, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yes, I like it when I fall, exactly Not if, when this
is going to happen.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
When I repeatedly yes .
Speaker 2 (32:36):
And well, I mean and like, because we're talking
about forming kids in general.
I've realized that part of Ithink we said this Pope John
Paul the second described thefamily as a school of love, of
learning love and like andespecially, you know, implicit
in that you're going to have toshare, you're going to have to
(32:56):
like the whole the whole world'snot about you, kids, sorry.
God loves you infinitely andyou're not the center of the
universe at the same time tryingto figure all that out.
But yeah, the adventurecontinues.
The adventure continues, oh, butwhat I was going to say is also
implicit is yes, is that I'mgoing to mess up, my wife's
going to mess up, and then we'regoing to have to say sorry and
(33:19):
then ask for forgiveness, notjust say sorry, oh, it doesn't
matter.
Yeah, from the Christian senseof like no, let there be a real
repair.
Like it doesn't matter.
But like in the yeah From theChristian sense of like no, let
there be a real repair.
Like no, that was wrong.
I responded poorly.
I'm sorry and I'm asking yourforgiveness.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Do you forgive?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
me.
Yeah, and like my kids, almostlike no hesitation yes, I
forgive you, yes, yes.
And then and then, as aspainful as that feels like has
felt to me, I'm realizing likethat's actually a huge win in
terms of modeling.
And yeah what is your, what areyour thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, just just yesterday myhusband and I got in a little
argument and kids were inearshot.
Right we were.
We were talking about whatconstitutes a date and what
doesn't, and I was talking aboutgoing to Home Depot to look at
flooring and I thought that wasa great.
Yeah, that counts.
And he's like no, because whenwe do these things like, then
(34:17):
the next step is we're gettingflooring like the next day.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
It's not just a browsing about Jordan, you don't
get this.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Like we've gone down this road before.
So we were kind of going backand forth and my daughter said,
Mom, are you and dad in a?
And she wouldn't say it like ina fight or in an argument, you
know.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
And.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
I said we're having a little disagreement about
something, but it's all good,your dad and I can work these
things out, you know.
And so she went away and didher thing.
And then she came back, rightbefore I had to jump on a
coaching call and she said mom,I have an idea.
She said I think this is what'sworked in my experience.
She's 10.
I was biting my cheek, I'm like, and she goes.
(35:01):
You know, sometimes people canbe sensitive when you tell them
what they're doing wrong.
So what I try to do withLincoln, my brother, is I just
try to say listen, I'm sorry.
What I did in this situationwas she goes.
So maybe you could do that todad first give him a hug, then
(35:21):
apologize and own your stuff.
Just tell him what you didwrong, but don't.
I know you might want to tellthem how he was wrong, but don't
tell them that, because peopledon't really like that, and I
was like oh my gosh this is sowonderful, and.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I needed it so bad.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I was like you just used my words back on me and you
have full permission at anytime to do that, and I needed
that right now because I wasjust going to run into my
coaching session and be like,well, I think I'm right and
we'll discuss this later.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
I still think Home Depot is the place.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yes, but I also want to circle back to John Eldridge,
because I think I remembersomewhere in his book him saying
, like in all of his yearsworking with men and studying
men and masculinity, that hekind of came to this conclusion
about men that there were threethings that that men like,
(36:14):
craved or needed or were madefor.
So maybe you can help me withthis, but it was.
They need a battle to fight, anadventure to pursue and a
beauty to rescue.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I love that.
You know a battle to fight, anadventure to go on and a beauty
to rescue.
It's like man.
If we could keep that top ofmind when we're looking at our
boys and they're saying, pleasejust let me have more video
games.
You know, joey he's onfortnight all the time that we
(36:51):
go.
You know, that's not the thebattle that you really exactly
that's not the adventure we'retalking about here right that's
out there with people and withwith the community and nature,
and pursuing, you know, a, awoman to be your bride and to
win over and to rescue, likethat's so different than I think
(37:13):
what we define as likemasculine and what's going to be
helpful for our boys.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yes, that's great.
I think that there is thattemptation, even unknowingly,
just to be like oh, I just I'mdrawn to video games when we do
that and there is like thatsense of like, look what I'm
accomplishing, right, but likeif I'm accomplishing that in the
digital virtual world, that'sgoing to leave me empty and it's
and it's going to leave meunsure of okay, when I actually
(37:41):
have to step up and express myfeelings for a girl or ask her
dad you know to, may I date yourdaughter, May I marry your
daughter?
Those are the same conversation.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
There's time spread out in there.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
This is part of that year of forming a man, right?
You have these conversationsthat you don't ask to date and
marry a man's daughter in thesame conversation.
Okay, check, you got that sonGreat.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
We have to be clear here, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yes, so so this this whole year can can look like.
Whatever you know, it'sprobably it's going to be an
expression of who you are as adad and the needs and interests
of your, your son, and abilities.
But, to be clear, I was doingthese father-son camping trips
with my son a few years beforethat and I think we were talking
(38:34):
in the last episode.
What does that look like?
My daughter, when she was 10this past year, just even doing
a single overnight camping tripwith her was so amazing for her.
She still talks about it.
It was, you know, us going.
It wasn't a lot of time ormoney, it was a single overnight
we went.
We drove like an hour and ahalf into the mountains.
We pitched camp, we went hiking, we went fishing, we went
(38:58):
stargazing, we werepaddleboarding.
The next day we were, um, yeah,we built a fire, we were
collecting wildflowers to pressthe.
I mean so just all these funthings.
And again one of these, thislittle gift, this pocket knife
that I wrapped up and gave herat the campsite, that, oh, my
(39:20):
goodness, and I, we don't knownecessarily what like are going
to be core memories for our kids, right, but like these, like
that's something that she waslooking for.
The daddy daughter camping trip, dad, you know for years, like,
when is that going to be me?
When is that going to be me?
Um, and you guys, actually, bythe time this airs, I think it
won't be a secret.
So, it's fine, I'm I've alreadyplanned my, my next child in
(39:44):
line.
He's nine right now.
I've planned a father-soncamping trip for him.
That's going to be unique forhim.
Like he's really into dinosaursand fossils, and so we're going
to drive, you know, down, uh,west of colorado springs, to
fluorescent fossil beds nationalmonument to go look, and
there's a place nearby, justdown the road, where you can
actually get a hunk of rock andseparate out and like, look for
(40:06):
your own fossils and you get tokeep them.
And I I'm just like, okay, solike that's, that's my next son,
that's, you know, and there'llbe some some other things too,
and and his first pocket knife.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
That's so good.
And as you're describing theseadventures that you're taking as
one-on-one trips, right, father, son, father, daughter Again,
the thing that that stands outto me is maybe like the most
important kind of setup to thiswhole thing, even more important
than what you're actually doingis just using some simple words
(40:38):
to invite them on thisadventure with you and to help
them feel that special bond andlike this, it's just you and I.
That's right and to be invitedin like that, as a child, and to
be seen and known and wanted inthat way creates such a bond
(41:02):
and connection between you andyour child.
And so, if you're listening tothis and you're going, sean,
you're pressing wildflowers,you're pitching a tent you're
staying overnight.
You're going, paddleboarding andstargazing and all these things
like what.
I can't possibly put all thattogether.
You do it your way.
But I think remember that themost important thing is that you
(41:24):
just have an eye-to-eyeconversation with your child and
and invite them on thisadventure with you and make it
fun, make just connect with eachother one-on-one, without the
distraction of phones and andscrolling and and taking your
work along with you, but justbeing present.
(41:44):
It could be a couple hours, itcould be an overnight, it could
be a week, right, it could be anovernight, it could be a week
Right, sure, yep, but the bondand creating that sense of
belonging and being enough, youknow, in the eyes of your father
or your mother is like hugebefore, just a number of years
(42:13):
ago, just thinking like in thesimplest form, like my job as a
father of children is to expressthe love of God, the father,
for them, like I'm kind ofincarnating God for them.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Right now, the invisible God of the universe,
whom we can't see, like dwellsin me and in whatever imperfect,
weak way I'm striving tocooperate with grace and to let
him, as I'm I'm not a finishedproduct, product either Like God
is still fathering me yes,we're always students, we're
always children.
(42:41):
And to to be able to reflectthe love and the delight of God,
the father, and like how messedup are so many of us because we
we haven't received that andwe're unable to do that for you
know, for our children.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Absolutely, and I think, when you put it in those
terms, that that we arereflecting the love of God, the
father to our children it's justa reminder that this is an
intentional thing, like we haveto be thoughtful about this and
also give ourselves grace thatwe're going to screw up and
we're not going to look justlike God the Father most days.
(43:21):
But, dang to try and to givethat forgiveness, that undivided
attention that I'm always here,no matter what bad thing you do
or awful position you getyourself in, like I'm not going
to leave you, I'm not going toturn my back on you.
Right and and like you said, ifyou come from a broken family
or you or you didn't have afather figure in your life or
(43:42):
you didn't come to know God andJesus until later in your life,
then it can be tricky.
It can be hard to remindyourself that.
Oh yeah, god dwells within me.
You know I have him within meand I am capable of shining his
light on my children.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Yes, and I feel like that brings up like a deeper
question.
Like all of us know people whohave fallen away from the faith,
and I mean I've I was amissionary on college campuses
and so like I mean just likeover and over, it's just like
people who would go to supportour work, cause they're like I
(44:24):
wish you were around when mykids were in college, because
they all left the faith, andit's just, you know, it's so
common, and so I'm also aspeaker.
I'll go to churches and speak.
I'm just trying to betransformed by God's grace and
also to speak that forth to bean encouragement and inspiration
to other people.
But just really, the thought ofwhen people ask the question
(44:46):
like why did my kids leave thefaith?
I thought and I was doingeverything right.
And I think part of it for meis I, I was born and raised in
the faith and then, as a preteen, I'm just kind of like I don't
get this.
Does this matter at all?
Is it?
We're here at the same placesaying the same prayers, like
does this mean anything?
(45:08):
Yes, and then I had anencounter with Jesus personally
that started changing the entiretrajectory and then it was
almost like it was thisawakening of like?
Oh, it's challenging becausethe ancient creed of
Christianity confesses a beliefin things seen and unseen, yes,
in the visible and invisible.
(45:29):
And it's hard because we don'tsee unseen things, we don't
perceive them with our physicalsenses yes and so it becomes
hard to like to dive into that,and so my sense in like
surveying the church sort ofthing is there's more, there's
always more.
They're like if, if we'retempted to be like, oh, this is
(45:50):
just, like you know, boring, andlike you know that this, this
bible, is not just paper and ink, it's, it is the living word,
and that's why we're stillaround, 2 000 years later, like
if it's just a bunch of randomfishermen.
This probably would havefizzled out a little bit ago.
But, but I would say for, for usas parents, is to to be
students, to be, uh, children,to be open and say God, teach me
(46:14):
more, draw me deeper.
You are the desire of my heart,you are the reason why I'm here,
you, you are the fulfillment ofeverything that I was made for
and which is why we'recontinually restless here on
earth.
And we're, you know, we'll onlybe fully seen, fully realized,
in heaven.
And so all that to say is forus, and myself included, to be a
(46:37):
student and to be like God.
I haven't arrived.
I need you to direct me andinflame my heart in the ways
that I live the faith.
So, in terms of, like, formingour children overall, this is, I
guess, unspoken and assumed,but it's too important to leave
unspoken.
Is that striving to live thefaith and make it the priority,
(47:02):
not a priority like the priority, the foundation, the lens
through which we see everything,you know, even above our
relationship with our spouse?
Yes, like God has to beeverything, and then things are
in the right order and thenthings can actually work, you
know, harmoniously.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yes, yes, and so we've done several episodes on
prioritizing God in the busynessof life and just making your
spiritual life a priority, andwe talk about how God is the
well that we drink from so thatwe can pour out his goodness to
our spouse and our kids, and ifwe're drinking from all kinds of
(47:46):
empty wells out there we knowthere's lots of those we're not
going to have.
What it takes, everything'sgoing to be more difficult, it's
going to feel like we're justsludging through life and that,
you know, this is just reallyhard.
And I think, like you said, likemaking it a priority to be a
(48:06):
student of your faith and to beconstantly learning, to realize
we're never going to arrive atthis place where we don't need
God anymore.
We don't need, you know,scripture, we don't need small
groups or Bible studies or smallgroups of parents that we get
together Like.
This is the lifelong like wewere meant for, you know,
(48:27):
continual learning and drawingcloser to him and community, a
sense of community.
So, circling back with the riteof passage, it's so beautiful
that you include other people inthis rite of passage with your
son Andrew and just saying, like, look like, besides me there
are other men who are investedin you and who believe in you,
and that is such a beautifulthing.
Besides me, there are other menwho are invested in you and who
(48:48):
believe in you, and that issuch a beautiful thing.
I mean, that's what life isabout is having a bunch of
people in your corner who arecheering you on and have that
faith in you that maybe youdon't have in yourself.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Yes, well, and so I think there are a few different
facets there.
There's a good to be had justin hey, here's, here's a new
skill that's.
That's helpful for me to knowas a man.
But the unspoken aspect ofbringing another person in is
that they're also witnessing.
This is how I live my faith,this is how I treat people, this
is how you know, just in all ofour different temperaments and
(49:26):
sensibilities and you know,personality and all that
Everyone lives it differentlyand it's it is really helpful to
have that reinforced and belike they're living it.
They're living it.
And then, even beyond that,there's there's a sort of
affirmation Like you know, theguys were like, oh yeah, I
remember so when we were on the,on the mountain.
(49:46):
Like you know, like Andrew'sdoing so well, like we had.
He had to wait up for us oldguys, sort of thing.
You know, he was just like.
So you know the sort ofaffirmation, or like, or
somebody was like, oh you know,I was really struck by how, you
know how humble you were, andrew, like in this scenario, and so
that's priceless.
And yet another thing there wasone guy I just overheard this
(50:09):
and he said he's like Andrew Idon't know if you realize how
amazing it is Like you've hitthe jackpot with your dad, like
that he's doing this, like isphenomenal.
And so I didn't ask him to saythat.
You know, and he's justaffirming, and it's I mean,
(50:30):
teenage years are hard, they'regoing to be hard, probably hard,
no matter what I mean.
And honestly, even like youknow, a few years after, like
you know, there's still thestruggle, they're still
struggling to know themselves,and you know.
But, but my wife noticed adifference, the before and after
.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
It just and I noticed a difference too, like where
there's a little bit of kind oflike I don't know what is it?
Speaker 2 (50:56):
The Oedipus and Electra complexes you know going
on in our homes, you know.
So, as far as Andrew and I likekind of you know clashing a
little bit, she was like, oh, Inoticed a difference Like that
that brought an element to ourhis and my relationship that was
life-changing.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Oh, thank you for sharing that, because that's
when I talked to parents about,you know, teenagers kind of
bumping heads with parents, andespecially with boys.
It is in that phase where theparents are like I don't know
what his problem is, like Idon't, he's just been so
disrespectful.
And what I've come to realizeis it's that phase where,
(51:35):
internally, the boy knows thatit's time to become a man.
It's time to break away, to havehis own thoughts, to make his
own decisions, to be able to beindependent of his parents, and
so that's where this tensionhappens.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
And so.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
I often would tell parents that means he's ready
for the next level.
He's ready for a challenge.
He has become stagnant andinternally he's not meant for
that stagnant kind of like justbeing served all the time.
He's ready to serve, he's readyto serve, he's ready to rise up
and do something you knowchallenging, and so what's the
(52:14):
next thing that he could go for?
And they're like Jordan, thathelped me.
We got him into jujitsu, or youknow, he decided he wanted to
start doing 14ers, or we.
We took him over to ourfriend's house and they ended up
working on cars every Saturdayfor a couple of months, you know
.
And then that tension goes awaybecause they get that
(52:36):
independence and they realizewhat they're capable of and what
your wife witnessed is a realthing, and we want that for our
kids parents, right, we wantthis.
We want to raise them up and asthey should go, right, as it
says in scripture, and and wewant them to become independent
(52:57):
of us and um, go out and be sentout into the world with the
skills that they need to to feelcapable and confident in in the
roles that God gave them.
I like that.
Speaker 2 (53:10):
Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
Yeah, that's where the rub comes from.
It's just like I feel this needto give myself, but I don't
know how or what or when.
Yeah, you're making me think ofthat, just this overall notion,
and I feel like it should belike a mantra for us as men.
But like a man's strength ismeant for others, what the
(53:32):
strength, the gifts that youhave, men, are meant for other
people.
Not that that means we neglectourselves, we don't love
ourselves, that we don't stay ina good place with God, but like
, when we're in a good placewith God, then Jesus Christ
reveals man to himself.
(53:52):
And so when we're inrelationship, that's that's how
we're going to be in the right,we're going to find our place in
the universe, as it were, ourrightful place, and then then
that frees us up to be able tohow do we serve?
And honestly, just in the pastfew months, for me, one of the
themes in my own personal dailyprayer is wow, look at these.
(54:15):
This, this scripture came tomind.
It says for the son of man camenot to be served, but to serve
and to give his life as a ransomfor many, and I'm like that's,
I guess.
And then the other sense is likeit's not just that we as
Christians are like oh, jesus,say you know, died on a cross
2000 years ago and saved us,would actually be made saints,
(54:37):
that we would become, as CSLewis said, little Christs, that
we would imitate Christ so muchthat we, however slowly you
(54:58):
know, gradually that the HolySpirit can purify us and make us
who we're meant to be and thatwe're, you know, striving after
virtue.
And so, anyway, I've just beenthinking about that theme and it
it just keeps getting deeper.
Another scripture came to meyesterday and I was journaling
about where St Paul said I amhappy to spend and to be spent
(55:18):
for your souls you know, andthen like, and then I'm just
thinking about all these otherconnected scriptures, like
greater love has no man thanthis, than he lay down his life
for his friends.
And like, I think, in a specialway, like you and I know as
parents, like yeah for yeah forfriends and neighbors, but like
applying that in a particularway, like if we fail, if we fail
(55:39):
our children, nobody else isgoing to pick up the slack,
that's right.
Like these amazing innocent ornot so innocent depending on the
way people are, depending, youknow, like it's a life and death
scenario sort of thing.
And so I'm just, I'm justconvicted more and more that my
entire life is and again, not toneglect myself or my own needs,
(56:03):
but like to be in a place wherehow do I anticipate my wife and
her needs, how do I love her inthat and things, great and
small, and all the thanklesstasks that we have as parents.
And you know, I want to teachmy kids gratitude and at the
same time, I it's fine that theydidn't acknowledge that I was
doing their dishes when they hadkitchen, or you know, or they
(56:24):
didn't acknowledge that I justspent all this time cooking and
they just, you know, didn't evensay thank you.
Anyway, there's all of thatkind of rolled up into life and
how we're called to serve, andhopefully that model will
eventually also be caught sothat they can see this is what
it means to pour one's life outfor others.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
Such a great way to wrap this up.
And we talked about boysbecoming men, and so boys really
learning how to be warriors andservants right To be able to
fight the battles, to protecttheir families, to be able to
stand firm for their faithbecause in my opinion, that's
(57:05):
what it means to be a warrior.
Right Is to put on the armor ofGod and to be able to defend
your faith and to stand firm init when culture's throwing you
all these curve balls andtemptations.
But also to be able to be justa servant a servant to your
spouse, a servant to your kids,and to be out and do new
(57:28):
challenges and to be invited byyour father to rise up and to
learn these things is justequipping them more and more to
be more like Christ, and I lovethat.
That is just like the dream,right.
That's what we're called to doas parents.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yes, and again, like this year of masculine
initiation was a kind of asnapshot, like it was a
particularly intense time ofinvestment, but yeah, it does
assume that it started before.
It's going to continue after.
Uh.
And just in in brief, just tosay I've been wondering as a dad
, like what do I do for mydaughters?
I have four daughters.
(58:07):
I'm like what does that looklike for them?
It's not going to look the samelike my.
My wife should take the thelead for that.
And somebody else was alsosaying like a woman's body
changes, like they don't have tobe told they're a woman.
There's actually somethinginternal that uh lends them to
the notion.
Yeah, you know that, that theyare now a woman, but, at the
(58:27):
same time, knowing, knowing likedads.
It's so significant for us toinvest in our sons.
It's one of the most importantfactors us being present, and
for our daughters, it's alsoperhaps the most important
factor for us to be present tothem.
And so, like, yeah, I dosimilar things.
(58:47):
Things I do daddy daughtercamping trips and as my, I think
I told you just briefly becausethis is so good when my
daughter was 15 and neededdriving hours and be like, oh
okay, we're gonna cram all thisin, we're gonna go do a road
trip and you're gonna drive thewhole way and you know, we're
gonna drive from here to tosouth dakota and camp in the
badlands for free, free camping,camping out there.
(59:08):
We're going to drive throughthe black Hills and, you know,
camp somewhere else and like hitall these other.
So it was just like fun andspontaneous and uh and also
practically they got theirdriving hours.
My, my daughter, my oldestdaughter, who's now almost 19,.
She looks back and she's likethat was so fun and like it just
gave her such confidence as a,as a driver.
(59:28):
But also just to say like Itake my daughter on coffee dates
or ice cream dates anddifferent, we just have this
great open conversation andshe's now like fast forward.
I've told you like she's nowengaged to be married, which is
also another thing Like am Iready for to be a grandparent
Right.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
I can't even Ready to be a grandparent Right.
Speaker 2 (59:48):
I can't even fathom that, ready or not, man, ready
or not, that's all of life.
But just the sense of lookingback in terms of initiation.
My daughter is now echoing backand saying, dad, it was you who
taught me how.
To date, it was your examplethat had me hold these high
standards for what a Christianman should be.
You know, you're the one who'staught me, you're taught me, how
(01:00:11):
to say I'm sorry and conflictresolution and have confidence
and like.
So I hadn't known these thingsuntil you know the.
She just so happened toarticulate this after the fact.
So I guess then, in summary,just the sense of like how, how
do we, as parents summary, justthe sense of like how, how do we
, as parents, be present andintentional and then let the
(01:00:33):
Holy spirit help, help us in allthe, in all the other details?
but to be present and to belooking for opportunities to
show love.
Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
Thank you for kind of fast forwarding for us and
showing us like this intentionaltime counts and it and it paves
the way.
It may seem insignificant atthe time.
Oh, I'm taking my daughter toice cream once a month, or, you
know, we do one trip everysummer.
Don't underestimate that.
(01:01:00):
That little drop in the bucketripples out and, like you said,
shapes them for their future andfor your daughter to be able to
come back and be like thank you, dad, like you, you did that,
like, oh, that's what we allhope for.
You know, not that we get thecredit, but that we can see the
(01:01:20):
fruit.
And even if we can't see thefruit, we need to be steadfast
in persevering and being anintentional parent, because we
know that it's the right thingto do.
Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
Yes and again, like the sort of urgency I know you
and I have said in the past,like you always say, like you
only have 18 summers with themwhere that that statistic that
says like, on average, by thetime they're 18, you will have
spent 90% of the time you willever spend with them on earth?
And you're like, oh, okay, okay, that that's a little, that's
(01:01:52):
sobering, like you've got myattention now.
Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely Well, sean, thanks
for sharing your journey, your,your, your masculinity and just
your connections with yourdaughters.
This has just been such a gift.
And, parents, if you'relistening, I hope you feel
inspired that you don't have tohave it all figured out, you
don't have to have a perfectplan, but just make a point, to
(01:02:14):
just start and to do something,because you won't regret that.
Sean, how can people kind ofconnect with you?
Where's the best way for themto kind of find you and your
guided adventures that you do inColorado and beyond?
Where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
Yes, so probably most easily on windsweptco is the
website and you can see promovideos for what we do, just all
sorts of fun activities, andthen also resources online for
all of us busy parents.
So, no matter where you live,just to inspire and give you
ideas for, yeah, know, for allof us busy parents for, so, no
matter where you live, uh, justto to inspire and give you ideas
for, yeah, how do I beintentional, whether it's
(01:02:53):
overnight or just even like Igot two or three hours, how do
we be creative with whatever'saround us, to be, to be
intentional with our kids.
So windsweptco, uh, is a greatplace.
And then, um, sean Garrison S HA U N uh, garrisoncom is my, my
music site, just as kind of anaside uh, music on Spotify and
(01:03:16):
Amazon and Apple music andthings like that.
So feel free to check that outif you're interested.
Uh, but, yes, happy to be ableto to connect with you If you
have any specific questions.
I, um I don't know if I toldyou this a friend of mine that I
know she lives in Nevada andshe's like we're living in the
middle of nowhere, sean.
Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
But I had this idea.
Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Like I want.
I was wondering if you wouldcome out and lead a father
daughter camping trip and alsojust like give talks to the guys
and just you know, talk aboutintentional parent, and I'm like
I would absolutely be open todo that.
So that will be coming up inthe next few months and it's
just another new thing and I'mjust happy to to kind of show up
and even just yeah, to maketime and space, you know, for
(01:04:00):
these guys and for their kidsand just try to help them be
creative and and intentionalwith wherever they're.
So you know, so, if people andother people have called me
actually after our last podcastsome people called me and be
like hey, how about you know?
We live in, you know, newEngland, we live in Houston,
texas Like, what are someoptions for us?
Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
Oh, that's great.
Contact Sean Y'all if you'relistening and going.
Okay, I just want to run thisidea by someone or or?
I've got a group of of mothersand daughters or or fathers and
sons already that we just need aguide to come in and kind of
help us with that.
Sean is your guy, okay, soreach out to him.
Is there an email that peoplecould reach you at?
Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Oh yes, Sean S-H-A-U-N at windsweptco.
Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Windsweptco Awesome.
Well, all of that is linked inour show notes below as well, so
you can click below thisepisode to find all the links to
Sean Garrison, windswept treksand any other resources that
might be helpful for you.
Listen, your son was nevermeant to wander into manhood.
(01:05:11):
Okay, he was meant to be ledthere.
So take the first step, beintentional, be prayerful, as we
talked about, and remember youare not alone on this journey.
God has equipped you for thismission.
You are the exact right parentfor your children and let's just
raise up a generation of menwho know who they are and know
(01:05:36):
whose they are.
I'll catch you on anotherepisode of our show real soon.
Thanks for joining us.
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