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July 15, 2025 59 mins

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Ever looked up from your smartphone and wondered where the time went? You're not alone. In this eye-opening conversation with Joe Hollier, co-founder of the Light Phone, we explore how our constant connection to smartphones is quietly eroding our family time, mental space, and ability to be fully present.

We speak about:

• Most smartphone apps are built to maximize "retention" through addictive design to collect data and sell advertising
• The Light Phone offers essential utilities (calls, texts, navigation) without browsers, email, or social media
• First Light Phone launched via Kickstarter, proving substantial demand for a minimalist phone option
• How one boarding school went completely smartphone-free using Light Phones, seeing improved academic and social engagement
• Light Phone offers privacy benefits as the company doesn't collect or sell user data unlike mainstream smartphone companies

For more information about the Light Phone, visit their website

To get control over screen time and access our Cell Phone Contract check out our Tame the Tech printable. Ready for it all? Pour your favorite beverage and download our Tame the Tech Digital Bundle and get started on taming the tech in your home, with confidence!

The Thriving Family Accelerator provides an easy, 3-step process to lower stress, parent as a united team, and enjoy a true friendship with your spouse & relationship with your kids. Sign up now for this live parent coaching with proven methods for positively engaging your family and redistributing the mental load. 
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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, friends, welcome back to the Families of
Character Show, the podcast,where we dive into real
conversations to help you showup with intention, live with
purpose and raise kids of greatcharacter in this wild digital
world.
Today's episode whew, it'sgonna be a game changer, I'm

(00:20):
telling you.
We're talking about the onething that's stealing your
attention, your peace of mindand, yep, even your family time.
You guessed it your phone.
But don't panic, we're not hereto shame or guilt you into
tossing your phone in the trash.
We're here to give you hope,because today I'm sitting down

(00:42):
with Joe Hollier, co-founder ofthe Light Phone, a revolutionary
device that's helping peopletake back their time, their
presence and their lives.
And this isn't just about tech,it's about freedom, it's about
finally having the mental spaceto be the parent, the spouse and

(01:04):
the human you want to be.
Joe shares the powerful storybehind the light phone why less
is more when it comes to ourdevices and how ditching
distractions might just be thething that saves your
relationships.
You'll hear the why, the howand the real life impact it's

(01:25):
having on families just likeyours.
So if you've ever looked upfrom your screen that phone of
yours that you keep in yourpocket and thought where did the
time go?
This episode is for you tillthe end, because Joe shares a

(01:48):
vision for the future of techthat'll inspire you and maybe
even challenge you to make abold move.
So welcome to the show, joe.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Wow, thank you so much.
Thanks for such a lovely intro.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Well, Joe, you're not just out there developing a new
device, a new phone, arevolutionary device that gives
people time back in their life,but, as evidenced by your
background there in your studioapartment in Brooklyn, New York,
you're also an accomplishedartist.
I read in your bio that let'ssee here.

(02:28):
Yeah, your work's beencommissioned by the Smithsonian
and your client portfolioincludes Nike, CNN and the
Lincoln Center, just to name afew.
So you've been an artist yourwhole life.
Is that right?

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, I guess.
So I didn't have the wordsalways as a kid, but looking
back it feels quite obvious now.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
So good, still creating things now, creator of
this amazing phone that ishelping so many people kind of
break this addiction to thiscomputer in their pocket.
That's what I call thesmartphone.
This computer in their pocket,that's what I call the
smartphone.
So just tell us.
You know what was happening inyour own life when you became

(03:15):
interested in creating analternative to the smartphone,
this instant gratification kindof everything in your fingertips
type of phone that I would say90% of us use.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, at least 90%.
So I think you know we startedthe light phone back in 2014.
And ever since I graduated artschool at the School of Visual
Arts in 2012, I was working as afreelance artist.
So you know, having asmartphone on me, it's easy to
imagine how the boundariesbetween online and offline were

(03:51):
so easily crossed.
And you know, being at thebeach on the weekend and going
to change a song, I might see anemail from a client which I
can't really do anything aboutin the moment because I'm not at
my computer.
But I'm still distracted,frustrated and thrown off on
what was supposed to be my dayoff at the beach.

(04:12):
And you know, I think that'sjust one example.
I think I also was feeling somepressure of how my studio time
sort of, was always my sacredplace, you know, a place to calm
and focus on my inner.
You know workings in life andwork things out.
And I found myself with asmartphone in the studio, this

(04:33):
illusion of productivity, ofsharing process, you know,
distracting myself from actuallyeven doing the thing or, you
know, just sort of throwing offthat train of thought that was
so special to me.
So you know I was feeling allsorts of train of thought that
was so special to me.
So you know, I was feeling allsorts of impacts, but I didn't
necessarily consider myself asmartphone addict in the way

(04:53):
that I'm sure.
Most of us didn't quite see itthat way, or at least always.
And at the same time, google ofall companies ironically had an
experimental program fordesigners, of which I was a part
of, and that's where I met myco-founder, kaiwei, and they
were encouraging us to think ofnew types of technology

(05:15):
companies.
But really what they meant wassmartphone apps, and so we
learned a lot more how and whysome of these smartphone apps
were being built and funded, andthe core thing we saw was that
they were after this one metricof retention how much time does
a user spend with our productevery single day?
Because if you made somethingsticky, something that people

(05:38):
would check and recheck, wellthere was a business model to be
made.
You could scale it infinitelybecause it was software
collecting all sorts of data andselling very targeted,
effective advertising at a topdollar.
So this was sort of thebusiness model.
So much of the internet andKaiwei, and I just kind of said,
well, gee, I feel he feelseveryone we are interviewing

(06:00):
feels habitually overwhelmed.
You know we're actually cravingan escape from the smartphone.
Could building some app thatfights for one more hour of your
day actually make us anyhappier?
Or am I ready to throw my phonein the ocean and fall off the
grid?
Obviously, that would be anextreme measure.
So we started experimenting withthis idea of going light and it

(06:22):
really was inspired by, like,my very first internet
experience where it was tied toone computer in my dad's study
office and if you left that onechair, you left the internet
behind.
It was a very clear onlineoffline and now that I had a
smartphone 24 seven, I couldcheck email on the bathroom
before I brushed my teeth justthousands of times a day in

(06:45):
theory.
So we wanted to encouragepeople to intentionally check
out but still retain the peaceof mind that, god forbid, there
was an emergency you're able tocall or be reached.
That was a huge modernconvenience of the introduction
of cell phones.
So how can we take thesefundamental utilities and things

(07:07):
that are undeniably importantto have without bringing the
entire computer?
And that was how the journeystarted, and it's evolved quite
a lot since the first lightphone, which only made phone
calls, but that was a little bitof how we sort of came to this
place of wow, there's anopportunity for a lot of people
that aren't just artists, thatwant to focus in their studio.

(07:29):
We're hearing from parents,we're hearing from students,
we're hearing from CEOs andcelebrities.
You know it really crossed alot of demographics and
geographic boundaries that youknow not a lot of products do.
So.
Even as an artist, I wasinspired by these conversations
because the conversation wasn'tlike does it have Bluetooth?
It was like, oh my God, I'm afather and I feel responsible to

(07:52):
check my email on the weekend,but I'm trying to play catch
with my son, and you know thesesort of conversations are very
real.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Well, and it sounds like inthis Google experiment, when
they're saying, like, come upwith a new app that will capture
the attention of you know,hours of time from these people
aren't doing Trying to givepeople time back, and so I love

(08:33):
that.
In a, in a, you know,environment like that, where you
have all these creative peoplethat are saying, yes, let's,
let's compete for this, thisattention and time, and let's
create something that peoplereally get all into, that a few
of you are willing to go, thisdoesn't resonate well with our
conscience, like we really won'tbe happy, even if we have a lot
of money and we know that ourapp is, you know, one of the

(08:56):
most popular, most downloadedand used.
Like we have to.
It sounds like you werethinking like, you know, we have
to really sit with this andunderstand how we're going to
feel about distracting millionsof people for our own fame and
fortune.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, and I mean that has never been either Kai or
I's motivation.
Even in joining the program Ikind of came from an artistic
angle of being critical towardstech and not necessarily
thinking I'd come out with acompany and a product, but maybe
some insights that I'd takeinto a more fine art practice.

(09:35):
But through this I realizedthat by saying I'm going to make
a phone that does one thing inthe age of 2015, at this point,
does one thing in the age of2015 at this point how that was
sparking all sorts of polarizingreactions.
You know some people told us itwas the dumbest idea they'd
ever heard.
Why would anyone pay $100?
And then you say, well, yeah,why would you?

(09:56):
And it gets them thinking about, huh, the side effects and
stuff.
So even before the productexisted, I think I was seeing
people's gears turning towardsrealizing like, oh, this
relationship with this magicaldevice I just got in the last
few years isn't 100% healthy andyou know that's step one to.

(10:18):
You know a long line ofpotential ways that you can
adjust and a light phone mightnot be the only path towards
adjusting that relationship, butI do think we were trying to
bring awareness of potentialways that you can adjust, and a
light phone might not be theonly path towards adjusting that
relationship, but I do think wewere trying to bring awareness,
and so that was, as, likeartists and designers, our
biggest interest.
We didn't, you know, set out tobe like we're going to make the
most successful company ever,but we do believe that there's a

(10:40):
lot of people you know I thinkthere's well over a billion
smartphones in the world that,even if a small fraction of
people want something different,not like the mainstream
dethroning of the smartphone,even if just a fraction of
people, we still felt like thatwas a worthy mission, because in
virtually every other industry,there's so many options for

(11:01):
types of shoes, types of cameras, types of cars.
Do you want a big SUV?
Do you want a little tiny thing?
Do you want to go off roads?
Do you want to save?
You know people have differentchoices, but it seems like when
you go to a phone store, there'sonly these big, huge
smartphones that all more orless have the exact same feature
set and offering, whether it'sSamsung, google, apple, et

(11:22):
cetera.
So we just felt like there wasthis opportunity, and an honest
one too.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yes, and tell us how you got started as a business.
I mean, you kind of put thisout there to the masses and this
idea.
Tell us how that went.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
So you know we were in this program and we got some
really interesting feedback.
It was a conversation starter,to say the least, but that still
meant we were many hundreds ofthousands, if not millions of
dollars, away from getting anactual prototype built.
So Kaiwei and I used theinternet this platform called
Kickstarter to crowdfund theoriginal Light Phone, and so we

(12:05):
put the idea out there and gotreally lucky that some press
covered it and I think becauseit had such a polarizing
reaction of people loving it,hating it, it really led to like
a sort of viral moment for itand we were able to raise enough
on crowdfunding to kick off thelight phone experience.
I think that's one of thebeautiful things of the internet

(12:27):
.
I think you're going to hear mebe really critical of the
internet, at least the state ofit today, but I think there's
still so much promise andpotential and power possible to
connect us, to teach us andeducate and share knowledge of
the internet.
But I think the current state oflike you know, the business
models between so much of theinternet.
But I think the current stateof the business models between
so much of the internet is justselling ads and collecting data

(12:51):
sort of disrupts that.
But there's something likeKickstarter I think is a great
example of how people can cometogether and say we want to see
this in the world, put down somemoney to actually kick it off,
and once we did that, we wereable to then prove to investors
and manufacturing partners thatthere is a group of people that
are interested and willing toeven put money up a year plus

(13:14):
ahead of delivering a phone.
So you know, that was reallyamazing and a huge validation
for us that we were ontosomething and that really was
the beginning of the light phonebecoming a reality.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Crowdfunding on Kickstarter.
I love it because you're notsaying, guys, just throw the
baby out with the bathwater, theinternet is all bad, never get
online.
But you're saying there's someareas that you can maximize the
benefit of the internet bygetting people behind your cause
and raising funds and beingable to do something that
otherwise you might not havebeen able to do.

(13:48):
So that's fantastic.
Tell us about this phone, likeeven just the logistics of it.
You call it the light phone.
Where did the name come from?

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Well, the name actually was, it felt, so second
nature.
It was one of the very firstnames that came to mind, but it
was in relation to the heavinessof us, the feeling of heaviness
that I felt owning a smartphone.
So it wasn't about the physicalweight of it, but the sort of

(14:19):
mental weight that that had onus in a sort of metaphorical
sense, and the light phone beingthis sort of light feeling.
Um, and you know, as I thoughtabout it more and we tried so
many different other names, uh,we found ourselves coming back

(14:39):
to the light phone and just sortof felt right and we imagined
how light could be applied as abrand to potentially other
objects beyond phones in thefuture.
How can we take the same designlens of doing something very
intentional, utility driven andas beautiful as possible of a
way, without, you know, vyingfor more and more attention and

(15:03):
data, like I think there's areal place for tools that use
technology well to make ourlives easier, so that we can go
back to spending quality timewith our kids, you know, not to
use it as the entertainment andthe distraction from our lives,
but actually to help us get backinto life.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
So it serves two purposes.
The name One it's lighter,because you have less of the
mental drag and the weight onyour mind and the overwhelm
because of the constant frictionof distraction and just the
residue that hangs around whenyou flip from one thing to

(15:44):
another on your phone.
But also because it's lighterthan the smartphone in the way
of like apps and functions onthe phone too.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, totally.
I mean, as I started thinkingon it more, all sorts of light
versus dark Light is truth.
I'm a photographer and an avidfan of sunsets, and light is
just one of my favoritesubstance, since walking into a
room with beautiful light, itjust warms.
So you know there was layers ofmeaning that sort of were
probably unconsciously in that,being one of the first names

(16:18):
that came to us.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Well, I love your website.
Just the feeling I get when Igo to your, the homepage of the
light phone, is just thisfreedom, the simplicity, this
like breath of fresh air.
This am 42 days into no socialmedia.
Okay, so this was kind of afast.

(16:48):
I decided to go on, andoriginally it was going to be
this 40 day fast and then I'dallow myself to kind of peek
into it and decide if I wantedto go back or not.
And the first 10 days was a bitof hell, to be honest.
I recognize this behaviorpattern I had of checking my
phone and checking Instagram andFacebook, and it was this

(17:09):
automatic, just absolutelyunconscious process that was
happening with me.
And so the first 10 days waslike this feeling of kind of
shame, like do I really get onmy phone this many times a day
and for what?
What new information am Ilearning?
Is it helping me in my work?

(17:30):
You know all of these things.
And so when I quit checking thesocial media apps, then I went
to my email and really for therest, like the last 20, 30 days,
I and it got better.
But I noticed myself justobsessively checking my email,
because then that was one thingwhere it was like, well, I

(17:52):
didn't say I was going off email, I said I was going off social
media.
So it's in my mind thinking I'mbeing true to my, to my promise
.
But then I started backing offfrom my email and I thought what
would it be like not to havephone access to my email?
And then all these thoughtsstarted coming to my mind oh,

(18:14):
you'd be less productive.
You know people would think thatyou're blowing them off if you
don't get back to them within anhour or two.
You know, you just starttelling yourself all these
things about if I don'tinstantly respond to someone or
instantly know what's in myinbox, this is going to be bad,
basically.
But this idea of not havingemail, not having social media

(18:40):
at our fingertips this is a realmind shift that if you want to
do these activities which youknow especially email for our
jobs is an important aspect ofour life, then you want to do
these activities which you knowespecially email for our jobs is
important aspect of our life,then you have to be very
intentional about setting uptime that you are in front of
your computer, processing emails, getting back to people, right,

(19:00):
and kind of doing this on ascheduled basis.
To us a little bit aboutpeople's experience with going
you know, getting rid of theirsmartphone and everything at
their fingertips to this lightmode where you have talking,
texting, podcasts, navigation.
And is there one more feature?

Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, there's probably about a dozen simple
tools, things like an alarm, acalendar and a timer, but really
, yeah, the light phone doesn'thave any email, it doesn't have
an internet browser, doesn'thave any social media or other
infinite feeds, so, you know, nonews feeds and we really,
really strive to make it sothere's nothing that you can

(19:42):
even make an excuse to check andrecheck on the phone itself,
because, actually, like, yourexperience with sort of slimming
down your smartphone is likebrings so true to some studies
that we had done prior tobuilding the Light Phone 2,
which was when we started to addsome of these more utilitarian
functions beyond just phonecalls that the original phone

(20:04):
had, and we saw, you know,people would delete the social
media that they were using themost, and then it became
replaced very quickly with someother platform, whether that was

(20:26):
now Reddit or shoppingunconscious crutch that you just
want to like do something onthe smartphone even though you
don't have the social media.
You're just you sat on yourcouch after a day working like
now what?
And instead of like thinking ofwhat to do, you can just pull
out the phone and there'ssomething to kind of pacify this
is killing me, joe.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
This is so true and this is my life right now.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
And you know, I mean it's to be expected.
We've become in some waysrewired by having such a hyper
connectivity and that dopaminethat comes with seeing a new
thing, whether it's positive ornegative news, it's clickbait
and it's kind of all over theemail.
You know, it's more of aroulette, I guess good and bad.
More of a roulette, I guessgood and bad.

(21:12):
But so that's why we felt itwas really intentional to design
phones that felt drasticallydifferent than a smartphone.
And I think one huge thing islike there's no color on the
phones.
This is the Light Phone 2 andthe Light Phone 3.
So this one only has an E-Inkscreen, so it's even like more
limited in terms of the speedand the size.
And so it's even like morelimited in terms of the speed
and the size.
So you know it has a lot of thesame function as Light Phone 3,
but it's you know it rewireshow you use the phone.

(21:36):
You can't just text 20 messagesback to back to back.
You have to be a little bitmore intentional and you know, I
think that ultimately helpslead to the lifestyle change
that is the fundamental part ofusing Light Phone, I think, more
than most of the products Ikind of talked about, like
getting a new pair of shoes.
The Light Phone asks a lot moreof the user in terms of, like,

(21:59):
probably, a gym membership or adiet bite.
You know you really have tothink about how you're going to
get around some of these thingsthat you've been so used to.
But that's also how it can havesuch a potentially positive and
profound shift if you're ableto transition yourself fully to
something like the Light Phone.

(22:20):
But I think, yeah, everythingthat you've experienced we
definitely feel is possible, andI guess I would just, you know,
sort of add that, like, when itcomes to using a light phone,
most users, myself included,have a device like this laptop,
which I'm using to do thispodcast, or some people have a
tablet or maybe their oldsmartphone, but they just keep

(22:41):
it at home on Wi Fi.
So it's not about completelygoing cold turkey from social
media or email but being, as yousaid, sort of more intentional,
about carving out how and whereand when you want those things
in your life.
You know, for me, email is ahuge aspect of running the light
phone, but also an incrediblystressful aspect of running the

(23:04):
light phone, so, by you know,having it limited to my laptop.
I one, I love having a fullkeyboard versus trying to blast
an email off on a small screen.
I have all my files and linksand everything's just sort of
there to take care of businessas efficiently as possible and
then at the end of the day orlet's say I need to focus on a

(23:24):
deeper project, some writing orotherwise, I can close my laptop
and not be tempted to justcheck and check and recheck.
I think a big other aspect isthat I think you sort of
mentioned we have theseexpectations, these illusions
that people are expecting us toreply so immediately.

(23:45):
And I think one freeing thing ofthe Light Phone experience that
anyone can take withoutnecessarily transitioning is
having more conversations aroundthat, like, if you decide you
want to check email moreregimented and scheduled hours,
letting your colleagues know oryour boss or your employees know
that hey, this is how to reachme for this type of urgency at

(24:06):
these types of times.
And I think by doing that yourealize like way more often than
not people are superaccommodating and that it's
actually great to have thesethings spoken out so they're not
even doubting themselves ifthis is an inappropriate time to
email or this or at least youknow, I think my team knows like
if they email me after acertain hour, I might not see it

(24:28):
till the morning.
So if it's a different degreeof urgency, they might call or
text me if I need to probablyget to my machine.
So for me that's worked reallywonderfully.
And obviously not every singlecareer will allow for this in a
full way that I have.
But I think it's really cool tosee the different ways that
people carve the tools intotheir life and it's all about

(24:50):
being intentional and settingthese sort of boundaries, and
not because we're so addicted orthis or that.
It just really does help atleast someone like my mind.
Work in that carpet carpet I'mnot gonna be able to say that
word compartmentalizing theminto their different things.
Compartmentalizing them intotheir different things.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yes, it's good for all of us to to have an idea of
what we're going to do, whenwe're going to do it and being
intentional about that.
Now, I think when I was umhearing you talk in in a town
hall meeting that I was at um,you mentioned something about
how, like this, instantmessaging got started back in
the day.

(25:30):
Who was it?
Was it uh?
AOL maybe yeah, yeah, talk aboutthat a little bit like the
intention behind it and how whatactually happened well, if I'm
remembering the right uh trainof thought it was.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
You know, some of our first inspiration for the light
phone was the idea that on AOLInstant Messenger you had things
like away messages and yousigned off and I think it was
expected that you wouldn't beavailable 24-7, where, now that
we had the phone just so easilyavailable, we sort of forgot

(26:08):
that there is a way to turn offthe internet.
You know that the internet isn'tsomething that has to be 24-7
accessible to us, and so I thinkthat's really like what, when I
reflected back on my instantmessenger days, seeing how it
transformed into thismulti-platform where you find
yourself going between fourdifferent apps, that you're

(26:30):
talking to people and it's likethat's sort of just checking and
rechecking and almost illusionof productivity.
That uh feels a part of that,and I think you know there's so
many things.
There's like just because yousaw someone's post about them
going on vacation and pressthumbs up on facebook doesn't
mean you actually interactedwith them and asked them about

(26:51):
the trip.
Or you know there's a lot ofthese more shallow interactions
that happen in lieu of orinstead of you know, real life
or phone calls or just moreintentional reaching out to your
friends and family.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
Well, I noticed when I messaged my family and said,
hey, I'm not on social media, soif you want to, if you wanted
me to know about something,you're going to have to give me
a call or shoot me a text.
It was like, well, this could belike silent for a long time,
but it's okay because it'sdistilling.
You know, it would help me editrelationships too.

(27:31):
Right?
What's the most importantinformation that comes in and
what's most important for us ifwe're not on social media to
share with others?
Right, like a phone call, aletter, you know, getting
together and sharing, puttingyour phones in a basket and
sitting and having conversationsabout what's been going on the

(27:51):
last three months, since you'veseen each other last, like,
these are the connections thatwe crave and that we're missing
and that we really are notgetting.
By scanning social media, eventhough it feels like you're
involved in people's lives, it'sjust, it's really a facade,
it's.
It gives you a snack, like alittle bite of something that

(28:12):
makes you think that, yeah,you're being satisfied, but
you're actually just hungry forthe deeper, bigger meal.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Totally yeah.
The food analogy of junk foodversus real food and snacks is
definitely real, and even to theextent of if you're on a diet,
you would probably not havesnacks in your pantry.
If you're trying to cut downyour digital diet and change it,
you might not want snacks inyour pocket.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yes, yes, and I found myself I've been snacking on my
email at the stoplights.
I mean this is horrible, thisis distracting me from real life
things that could be dangerousto myself and my family and
others.
And so if you're listening, andthat's you like, you find
yourself just obsessivelychecking your phone.
Or you're not even sure howoften you're checking your phone

(29:04):
and you're thinking, oh, I wantto go on a fast from social
media or delete apps or whatever.
Go ahead, try that.
I think that's a good ideabecause that gives you an idea
of you know, a baseline of ofwhere you are right now.
But I'm just thinking justgoing from having all these apps
on my phone, even if I deletesocial media, take my, my email

(29:27):
off, just all the otherdistractions, man, you can jump
on Zillow and check out homes inyour neighborhood For what?
I wouldn't do this if I had togo to my computer, log in and
look up Zillow on my computer,right.
But like you said, just thesitting down after a long day
work or whatever and then justlooking around at the variety of

(29:48):
apps that could just distractyou and take you away for 30
minutes ends up in two hours.
And then, just like for what?
I just lost time with my kidsand my spouse and like I'm
nowhere further down the roadthan before I started this 1000%
yeah.
Oh, my goodness.
Well, what should parents whoare looking to get their, their

(30:08):
child, a phone you know whyshould they consider the light
phone?
You think about yourself, youknow, growing up in today's day
and age and if you're 12 or 13,you know, and your parents
thinking, well, I should getthem an iPhone.
They're going to give me a freeone next time I sign up for the
upgraded version.
You know I could just give thatone to Johnny and we'd be set.

(30:29):
You know I could just give thatone to Johnny and we'd be set.
You know I'll put in all thesecurity measures and all the
software that pops up on myphone that tells them when
they've accessed something thatthey shouldn't.
You know like what kind of giveus your take on why parents
should consider the light phoneabove a smartphone.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, I mean it's a very interesting and kind of
alarming conversation.
Kaiwei and myself are notparents ourselves and honestly,
we didn't set out withintentions of making a phone
that would be suitable forchildren.
And I actually think that isone of the pluses for the light
phone in children's, becausemost kids don't want a phone

(31:09):
that's inherently designed forkids.
They want an adult phone.
So that's one thing.
But you know, it wasimmediately obvious to us when
parents started reaching out whya light phone might be a good
fit.
Because there's obviously thisconcern of peace of mind, of
knowing that your child'sreachable and can reach you.

(31:30):
You know that's one of thewonderful things about cell
phones.
But then there's this hugeother basket of and sometimes,
you know, parents don't evenrealize to the extent some of
these things exist or could beharmful.
You know they're just like whoknows what social media apps
they might get that I'm not evenaware of, to block or this or

(31:50):
that.
And you know kids are verysavvy.
A lot of these softwaresolutions are only so good and
even if you are locking it down,they're still probably using it
more than they'd like.
And you know we've heard of allsorts of problems with social
media affecting mental healthand confidence in kids, which is

(32:10):
just so sad and so grateful.
I didn't have that quantifiablemetric likes and friends and
followers in that way as a kid,and so you can imagine that to
kids' performances at schoolaffecting their attention span,
bullying that happens on thesethings.

(32:30):
So you know there's so manyconcerns that we hear from
parents and I think where alight phone or a flip phone or
some other very simple phonefrom a hardware perspective,
like really stripped down, isthat it will ease a lot of those
concerns.
But it also comes with otherconcerns of like is my child now

(32:50):
going to feel like they'remissing out because everyone
else is on this app and they'renot on the app?
So you know we sympathize a lotwith parents because these are
not easy one size fits all sortof problems to deal with.
You know some kids needrideshare to get to school or
some schools are now leaning onassuming every child has a
smartphone for scanning thehomework assignment and you know

(33:13):
these are all just like veryreal things that parents and
children are having to navigate.
I think we're like we've seenthe Light Phone 2 work really
well is we've done a couple ofexperiments.
One case study we did in aschool called Buxton in Western
Massachusetts where the entireschool it's a pretty small

(33:35):
private school as well as allthe faculty on campus it was a
boarding school went completelysmartphone free.
So they all used the lightphones for a full school year.
I mean they've kept the policygoing.
But for this study, and I thinkit was immediately apparent
some of the positive benefits,not just academically but

(33:57):
socially on campus, you knowpeople were more engaged at
lunch when I interviewed thekids they kind of hated the
light phone but reluctantly ableto admit all these fun things
that were happening.
So I think they appreciated itas time went on.
So I think they appreciated itas time went on and I think the
fact that everyone was on thesame boat just really made that

(34:18):
a smoother experience.
And you know these kids theydid have state of the art
computer rooms and they weren't,you know, just completely off
the grid with it.
You know they were stilllearning how to be, you know,
efficient in these programs thatthey'll probably need in
college and their careers beyond, but without, you know, the

(34:38):
complete smartphone 24-7.
So that was really encouraging.
But it's also very hard toimagine that, scaling across
public schools and other things.
We've seen some groups ofparents, or even sometimes
students themselves, kind ofmake these Luddite clubs or
parent packs that, like ourteenagers, our kids aren't going

(35:01):
to do it, and that's beenreally interesting to see.
And we've seen a couple ofother schools try similar
initiatives.
But you, it's really is acomplicated and hard to navigate
space, but uh, I think overallparents feel like the positives

(35:21):
of a simpler phone haveoutweighed some of the potential
negatives.
Um, but you know, there isn'treally a one size fits all.
I think the iPhone might be agreat fit for some, but uh, it's
really a one size fits all.
I think the light phone mightbe a great fit for some, but
it's really a tricky thing tonavigate.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
I'm just so, so grateful that there's an option,
a real cool looking option likethis isn't the flip phone which
we know.
The flip phone is old becauseit flips open and you have to
press one button three times toget a letter right, like um.
So that is a little bitembarrassing for kids to use.
But I've also met collegestudents who are like this is

(35:58):
all I've got, I got.
You know, you go to ski slopesand they're like show us your
pass on your phone and they'relike this is my flip phone.
I don't have that.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
So you're going to have to.
You know, some of the fullcircle, which is so awesome,
whether it's a light phone or aflip phone.
We're just so encouraging of itall.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yes, this is great and I love the look of the light
phone, like it's sleek and it'sthin and it can fit in your
pocket and it like it's just agood looking phone and it's not
giant like the phones are nowright the iPhones of Google,
whatever.
Yeah, like wallet size orcredit card size almost.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Pretty close to it yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
Yeah, this is great.
This is so, so awesome.
I mean developing a phone andan operating system like there's
so much that goes into this.
Joe, we were talking before wehit record that you're an artist
, you love that time painting,and now you're 10 years into
this.
It's been 10 years since thelaunch of the first Light Phone

(37:00):
and now people are able topre-order Light Phone 3.
What drives you to continueputting in the work?
Or do you just sometimes thinkI'm just going to go off grid
myself and just disappear fromthis whole project?

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Well, yeah, I mean I'm sure that feels like a
desire sometimes in the heat ofit, but I will say that it's
been like beyond humbling tohear from some of our users
across the board of types ofreasons why they might have come
to Light Phone, or even liketypes of people that have found

(37:34):
themselves using Light Phone,and to hear the stories of like
the tangible impacts thatgetting themselves off the
smartphone, sometimes gettingthree to five hours a day, back
without the distractionsthroughout that, even just the
quantity of time that they'vebeen able to then funnel into
their life, whether that'senhancing the quality of their

(37:58):
very close in their liferelationships, taking on hobbies
and passions with moreseriousness, focusing on their
job, their career, or even notavoiding some potential things
in your life frictions that aredifficult and you need to work
on, whether you want to changeyour career or change your
relationships.

(38:18):
And so I think seeing how thathas snowballed in such wonderful
ways and hearing theseheartfelt stories, that moves us
as a team so much.
And as much as I love painting,paintings, I don't quite get
the same feedback.
I don't think any of mypaintings has had nearly that

(38:39):
kind of impact on someone, and Ialways make it, you know,
remind them that they changedtheir life.
Our phone was just a smallcatalyst but we're just like, so
honored to be a part of thatjourney for them, probably one
of many products that they'veincorporated to help them get
there.
So that really moves me and Ithink we're a really small team

(39:02):
and some of our team has beenwith us for eight plus years now
, some of the oldest.
I mean we're still able to sitaround a large dinner table and,
uh, I think their commitment toit and belief and passion like
makes me be like I have to seethis through as far as it can go

(39:24):
and I think each year it feelslike the world seems more open
to the idea of a phone like thelight phone.
I think a lot of our struggleshave been with the scale that
we've been at and trying to getout there and making a phone as
a small team is no easy task andyou know, each year we get a

(39:44):
little bit better at it, thephone's a little bit more
advanced, we've fixed a coupleof the quirks, we've learned a
couple of the quirks, we'velearned a couple of lessons.
So hopefully each year thechance of it reaching more
people is possible.
So I still believe in it as muchas I did at the beginning, if
not more, maybe even.
And so you know, yeah, myday-to-day life is a little bit

(40:08):
less glorious than maybe thefantasy dream I had of what I
might be doing in my 30s, butit's also mind-blowingly more
impactful than I could have everimagined.
So I feel very just gratefulthat you know we've had a lot of
miracles align to get to wherewe are, and so just counting our

(40:30):
blessings really, Just what yousaid the impact that you're
developing this device, alongwith people's choice right, you
have to engage.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
Somebody has to engage their will in order to
buy the Light Phone and then useit in the way that it's
intended but just the impactthat this device is having on so
many individuals, families,schools that was so awesome that
you shared about that wholeschool doing this experiment for
a year and communities, likewe're getting our lives back
people.
I mean, if you're listening tothis, I want you to share this

(41:05):
with other people in yourcommunity, because, even though
the light phone has been aroundfor 10 years, it takes 10 to 15
to 20 years for people to reallyhear about something new like
this, get on board, understandthe community and the mission
behind it.
And so I feel like there's thisreal rising up that's happening
with people of my age rangethat were born in the 60s, 70s

(41:26):
and 80s that are like we aresick of all of this distraction.
We are tired of the smartphone.
We want to throw it out at thestoplight and run it over with
our car.
Like, give us another option.
And it's like wait what?
There's another option or wecan get our life back, but still
have a phone accessible to usfor things like calling,
shooting a text to somebody.

(41:48):
You know directions in our car,because now we're dependent on
that.
We can't print out MapQuestdirections anymore and come
through you know 17 pages tofigure out how to get somewhere.
But you've equipped this phonewith just the necessary tools
that we need for the basics tostay in touch with people, but
also the permission to get offof stay in touch with people,

(42:13):
but also the permission to getoff of all of those other apps
that are just distracting us andtaking us away from our
relationships.
So talk to us real quick beforewe kind of wrap things up.
Talk to us about privacy andhow the light phone is better
than alternatives when it comesto kids, and just the privacy
issues you have to worry aboutwith smartphones.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yeah, I think one huge aspect of the smartphone is
that the business model behindeverything from using Google
products, google Mail, googleCalendar, google Maps to
something like Facebook,whatsapp, social media and these
other things is that our datais a hugely valuable asset that

(42:56):
these companies are, you know,maliciously at times, often
taking at any degree that theycan capture.
And in some ways, you know,data harvesting feels harmless
because you don't notice theimmediate impact in your own
life.
You're like, well, I've hadnothing to hide, then who cares?
It's sort of an attitude that'sreally easy to take, but I

(43:18):
think people are starting torealize that through all of this
data collection, people aregetting these hyper-targeted ads
and being able to manipulate usand keep us vulnerable more and
more effectively at almostalarming rates, and there's
probably even more unintendedside effects that I'm not even
aware of from it.

(43:39):
So it hasn't been the numberone reason why users get a light
phone, but it's still somethingthat I think is a fundamental
part of why people support it,and that is really just that.
Our business model is to sellyou a phone and we call it a
phone designed to be used aslittle as possible, because none
of our business model hasanything to do with how much you

(44:00):
use your phone or what kind ofdata is available, because we're
not interested in the data,because it's not even a part of
our business model.
You know, if we take users'data their email address, if
they're like signed up to ouraccount and stuff like that
that's our responsibility.
So we don't want to have thishuge responsibility of having

(44:21):
everyone's data unnecessary dataat least.
And so you know, when we buildtools for the Light Phone,
something like our directionstool, we actually pay for each
time a user queues up anavigation, because we are
working with a company similarcompanies that you might see in
your car, white labeled like incar navigation to offer that

(44:44):
service without sacrificing userprivacy.
And it may not be likeeveryone's biggest concern, but
I think that's one fundamentalaspect of us, of our belief that
to get away from this currentmodel that the internet and all
these platforms have taken, wefeel like that's an important
part of it.
It's not that the light phonehas crazy security features, so

(45:08):
you know, sometimes those wordsget used interchangeably, but I
think the fact that nothing onthe light phone you know you
don't have your email, you don'thave a lot of these information
, your passport info it's not onthere, especially on the light
phone too.
You don't have even any imagesor things like that.
Like, there's just a lot lessdata on there and then there's
no third parties that ever haveaccess to it.

(45:30):
So often on a smartphone, anapp will seemingly be doing
something very basic, butactually behind the scenes
they're trying to sell your datato some data broker and that's
their real business model.
But you know, you think you'rejust setting alarms or something
like that, but it's like trying.
So you know there's just a lotof really sneaky things

(45:51):
happening and I think a lot ofusers find our approach to be
rather refreshing in that regard.
And then, when it comes to a kid, you know the Light Phone 2
doesn't have a camera.
I think this one's probablyeven more suitable for a first
phone.
It's slower, smaller.
You know it's slower, smaller.

(46:15):
You know it's not going to evenbe nearly as addictive in
wanting to text or scroll around.
You know it's really a supersimple phone and I think by, you
know, not having any of that,uh, it inherently limits some of
the dangers of the phone.
Light phone 3, our newest model, does have a camera and you can
send images and things.
So it is a little bit moreadvanced in that regard and

(46:36):
maybe not as suitable to a very,very first phone for a kid, but
, you know, maybe a teenagerthat might be a nice middle
ground, compromise of sorts.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
I love that recommendation that the Light
Phone 2 may be best forfirst-time users.
Yeah, that doesn't have theability for them to be tempted
to send crazy pictures to theirfriends and just be on it more
often, but then, if they provethemselves, I like the idea of
kind of like graduating up tothe next version of the phone
too.
So when the Light Phone 3, thethird model?

(47:13):
When does it actually launch?

Speaker 2 (47:16):
So we began shipping at the end of March.
Oh, but you know the nature oflaunching a product at our scale
we've been pre-sold out, soit's in this pre-order phase
still.
So we have gotten thousands ofphones out into the world and
it's amazing to start to hearsome of the feedback and see it

(47:37):
out in the world.
But right now it is still onbackorder, I think, with about
an end of August estimateddelivery.
But we are getting light phonetwos back in stock.
I think the gray one is and theblack one will be soon as well,
but the new one, yeah, it'skind of like a place of

(47:58):
pre-order and then we deliverchronologically.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
Wonderful.
That's so exciting that you'resold out and there's a wait list
and people pre-order.
They put their trust in yourcompany and they're like I can't
wait to get my Light phone.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
No, we want to deliver faster, though I think
that's we're all eager.
Everyone's getting a littleimpatient, us included.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
I get that.
Well, how long does a lightphone last Like?
Will we be pressured to upgradeto the next version, or is
there going to be softwareupdates that are going to cost
us money there?
There's no way to advertise tous through this phone because it
doesn't have that capability,right?

Speaker 2 (48:34):
You're not going to be able to upsell us and things,
and yeah, I'd say we take avery uh, not aggressive approach
in that regard.
Uh, there's a term calledplanned obsolescence, which is
when a technology makerintentionally which is when a

(48:56):
technology maker intentionallycripples a product so that they
can upsell you the new model.
And you know this makes sensebecause if your profit is the
foundational motive anddirection of your company, that
would increase profits.
Light Phone takes a prettydifferent approach in that we
try to future-proof our devicesas much as possible, so
something like the Light Phone 3, we really hope that this could
last the user three, five tomaybe even 10 years.

(49:18):
A few things we did were allowa user to replace the battery.
I mean, you can always send itto us if you didn't feel
comfortable, because that's acomponent that inherently
degrades after a couple of years.
So that's one component that wewanted to make easier to swap
so that you can extend the lifeof your phone.
And then, because the featuresare so simple compared to a

(49:40):
smartphone, these specs shouldbe good enough to last for years
.
You know, maybe cameras willget a little bit better, but
that's.
The camera on the light phoneisn't trying to be the world's
best professional camera, it'strying to be a nice, simple, fun
tool for capturing a couple ofmemories.
Or you know the utility ofsending your spouse a photo of

(50:02):
which towels do I buy Righthere's the menu Tell me what you
want.
Like there's a very practicalneed as well.
So, by making sure that thehardware was capable of lasting
many years.
And then, on the software side,we don't have any intention to
upsell you and we actually don'tsee this as a replacement for

(50:23):
this we still support thesoftware on the Light Phone 2.
We're still making new ones,and there's lots of users that
have this that didn't need theupgrades of the light phone
three.
Wonderful, or maybe theyupgraded light phone three and
then they're giving this totheir kid now.
Um, you know, there's a lot ofways, but I, yeah, I'd say
that's something we're reallyproud.
Uh, and that's our goal.

(50:45):
You know, I think it's it's awork in progress.
We've learned a lot aboutrepairability, from the light
phone to things that might break, that were hard to repair.
We've tried to make somethinglike the port more repairable on
the light phone three.
So if you did break the port,we can probably fix it if you
send it in.
So you know, I think there's alot of lessons to be learned
there.
There's a company calledFairphone that is really amazing

(51:08):
at it, and so we look to themas like a real admirable company
to aspire for that level ofrepairability and just
transparency through their wholesupply chain.
It's really inspiring.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Wonderful, and I've heard that, even though this is
kind of blowing up and you guysare selling more and more of
these and people are starting toreally understand the benefits
and getting their lives back.
You also have good reviews onyour customer support, and
that's wonderful, right?
I mean because you can stop atan Apple store anywhere within

(51:43):
like 20 miles of your home, itseems like, and just go in and
help me with this.
But to have a small team ofpeople who are dedicated to
fixing the problem, getting yourphone back into your hands as
soon as possible and then justmaking a quality product that,
like you said, doesn't expirewhen your payoff is coming next

(52:05):
month I'm noticing this with myown phone.
I'm going.
This is really weird.
I just got a message saying youknow, I paid off my phone and
all of a sudden, like it'sbogged down and I can't get to
things quickly and I'm like thisis no coincidence, this is on
purpose, so I'll go back andupgrade my phone.
Like this is nuts.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
Yeah.
I'm not trying to be conspiracytheorist or anything, but it
really does feel like that isthe case.
Yeah, yeah, well, and there'sbeen many examples of them doing
it in the past a variety ofcompanies and not just phones.
You know this is somethingthat's been happening across
things, but you know, a billionsmartphone users getting new

(52:48):
smartphones every single yearit's pretty easy to imagine the
environmental impact that thatcan start to have.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Wow, totally Well, tell us the cost of a light
phone.
How much is it going to costfor the light phone 2 that
doesn't have the camera, and thelight phone 3?

Speaker 2 (53:04):
So this one is available for $299.
And then the light phone 3 iscurrently at $599 pre-order
price.
There's a chance the finalretail price for the Light Phone
3 might increase.
You know there's a lot ofdifferent factors, but the
tariffs are definitely one sortof ongoing thing that's really

(53:27):
impacting our everything.
But yeah, but so $599 and $299right now if you were to
pre-order the Light Phone 3.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Wow, To me this is way cheaper than a smartphone is
and people do get much cheaper.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
phone plans is one other sort of benefit, because
you don't need as much data todo hours of YouTube.
You know people are getting ourour.
One of our optional plansstarts at $25 a month, so for
some users, you know, the phonestarts to pay for itself in that
regard as well.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Yes, totally Okay, and you can just take this phone
when you get it and you can.
Any plan supports this phone ifyou're with AT&T or Verizon or
whatever the big carriers forsure they're all certified, some
of the smaller carriers.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
It's a little bit more hit or miss.
We do have some more info aboutthat.
On our site there's a pagecalled compatibility checker so
you can see which country, whichcarriers.
We're a little bit conservative.
It probably works on morecarriers than we claim, but
those are the ones that we canguarantee.
And if it doesn't work, youknow we'll happily refund your

(54:40):
phone or help troubleshoot it asmuch as we possibly can.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
Yes, awesome, joe.
This has been so enlightening.
I feel so encouraged to havehad you just share with us this
new invention.
I say it's new and 10 years old, but just this way of really
revolutionizing how we usetechnology so that we can get

(55:04):
our lives back Like this is huge.
This is what we're all abouthere at families of character is
intentional quantity, qualitytime with our loved ones and
when this smartphone is gettingin the way nonstop every day and
you've tried the different appsthat are going to block you

(55:24):
from using the social media andall this stuff and you still
feel that drag and thatemotional overwhelm and that
heaviness.
We have a new option now thelight phone.
So thank you so much for whatyou and your co-founder are
doing.
I mean, this is tireless work.
I know you have a team, so tellthem from the bottom of our

(55:48):
hearts here at Families ofCharacter thank you for
improving our lives and givingus time back and to keep going,
and I can't wait to be part ofthe light community and to see
where this goes in the next 10,20 years.
Like you said, there may beother things that you guys
invent that help us get timeback in our lives and have more

(56:11):
healthy relationships with thepeople that matter most to us.
So thanks again, joe.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
My pleasure.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (56:20):
Yes, Guys, go check out the Light Phone, okay, and
make sure that you consider thelight phone as an option for
yourselves and your children.
If you've got a child coming upand you're thinking, oh, a
birthday gift for them, well itmight be okay to suspend this

(56:45):
idea of a computer in theirpocket and instead get them
something that will keep themconnected to their friends and
to you but also lead them notinto temptation I'm going to put
it like that.
So, anyway, if you felt thatthis was helpful, please share
this with people in yourcommunity.

(57:05):
Definitely share this episodewith your spouse.
Text it off to friends that youhave that you've struck up
conversations with abouttechnology, social media, the
impacts of the phone, all ofthat.
Let's just really get thismessage out there far and wide,
and we'll continue to bring ongreat guests like Joe in the
future to talk more about justtechnology and how we can be

(57:29):
intentional as parents andmaximize life with our kids.
I'll catch you on anotherepisode of our show real soon,
take care.
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