August 26, 2025 • 56 mins
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Ever feel like you and your spouse are playing completely different games when it comes to discipline? One moment you're calmly coaching your child through a tantrum, the next your partner swoops in with strict consequences, leaving your kids confused about the rules and possibly learning to play you against each other.
Creating a united front in discipline is essential for raising secure, respectful children who understand boundaries and feel emotionally safe.
In this episode, we discuss:
• Four parenting quadrants
• Parents often swing between authoritarian and permissive styles depending on stress levels and their own upbringing
• Many couples have one partner who leans authoritarian and another who leans permissive, creating confusing mixed messages
• In loving guidance, power isn't used against children but rather alongside them to co-create solutions
• Children notice when parents model humility, repair, and emotional regulation
• The goal is to raise children with internal motivation rather than external control
Visit Kyle and Sarah Wester at artofraisinghumans.com to learn more about their coaching programs for parents and to sign up for a session with Kyle! Also, be sure to check out their FREE parenting guide!
The Thriving Family Accelerator provides an easy, 3-step process to lower stress, parent as a united team, and enjoy a true friendship with your spouse & relationship with your kids. Sign up now for this live parent coaching with proven methods for positively engaging your family and redistributing the mental load.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, friends.
Do you ever feel like you andyour spouse are playing two
different games when it comes todiscipline?
I mean, one minute you're calmand coaching and the next minute
your partner's just laying downthe law.
And then the kids?
Well, they're left confused or,worse, they've now taken over
(00:20):
and are in control.
So getting on the same pagewith discipline isn't just kind
of nice to have.
It's actually essential forcreating a united front and
raising kids who are securelyattached, respectful and
emotionally healthy.
When parents align on how toguide their children, home
(00:43):
becomes a place of clarity andconsistency, not chaos.
Welcome back to the show, guys.
I'm your host, jordan Langdon,and I am thrilled to welcome
back Kyle and Sarah Wester tothe Families of Character show.
You might remember them fromepisode 123 called Transforming
(01:05):
your Parenting Through Love, notFear, guys.
Kyle is a licensed professionalcounselor and former elementary
school counselor with over 20years of experience working with
kids and, together with hisbeautiful wife, sarah, a
parenting coach and fellowtherapist, the two of them have
really dedicated their lives toequipping families with the
(01:29):
tools that they need to raisekids with confidence and
compassion.
These two are the heart behindthe Art of Raising Humans, a
counseling and coaching practiceand a podcast where they unpack
real, practical ways to parentwithout fear or shame.
(01:50):
They're also parents of threeand bring a wealth of lived
experience both as professionalsand as a real life mom and dad
in the trenches.
So today they are joining us tohelp couples align on one of
the most important parts ofparenting discipline.
(02:12):
Because when we are united inhow we guide our kids, we're not
only giving them consistency,we're building trust, peace and
teamwork into the heart of ourhomes.
So welcome back to the show,kyle and Sarah.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Hello, thank you, jordan.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Hi, glad to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
That was a great intro.
You're right, that's exactlywhat we want to build.
You know what I was thinking,right, when you were saying that
.
I was thinking when Sarah and Ifirst were learning how to
parent together in regards tothis, and I remember at that
time we'd already had some greattraining, we read some mini
books and we were kind of on thesame page, we thought.
But there were these momentswhere I in particular would get
(02:56):
triggered.
At that time, our now15-year-old was only three,
maybe three or four, and her andI would just be butting heads.
I would just revert back towhat was done to me as a kid,
which was a lot of fear andintimidation, a lot of yelling,
and so I would be back thereyelling and, and I remember, I
would come into the living roomand Sarah would be sitting.
I remember this particular.
(03:16):
She was sitting on the groundfolding some laundry, which is
like an endless job when youhave little kids and she's in
there doing that, and I rememberSarah looked at me with all the
grace and compassion that shehad to muster and she said you
know, what you're doing is notwhat we would teach parents to
do.
I said, oh, oh, I know that,but this is happening, honey,
(03:37):
I'm going to finish what Istarted.
Later tonight I would love totalk to you about how I could do
that better, but at this pointthe train has left the station,
it's not going back, and so itwas.
I remember thinking, even as Iwent back in there and continued
to use old tactics that I knewweren't necessarily effective or
probably hurting myrelationship with my daughter.
Um, I knew I was going to comeback, have a conversation with
(03:59):
Sarah, we were going tobrainstorm it and we were going
to make a change into how tohandle those moments.
But in that moment I'm sure alot of your parents can relate
to this I just was seeing red.
I just could not see anotherpath.
It's like she opposed me and Ihad to oppose her back.
I had to win this battle.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yes, you chose the battle.
You chose to die on the hill,about the frosted flakes or
whatever right, yes.
Well, one of the things that Inotice is that, and even about
your example, is that most of usas parents, when it comes to
our kids' behavior, we are inthis reactive mode.
We have gotten ourselves sortof caught up in just reacting to
(04:44):
their behaviors versus sort oflining with our spouse and
coming up with a plan for how weare going to go about handling
their behavior issues, which areinevitable, right, they are
humans.
They're learning how to navigatethe world.
They don't have this down andwe should expect them to really
screw up a lot.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
But when you're in that reactive mode it never
bodes well and usually, like yousaid, one of us is looking at
the other like, yeah, you'replaying a different game here
than I am.
I would not do it like that.
But at the same time we don'thave time to discuss that right
in the heat of the moment, sowe're just going for it, and
then life keeps happening in theheat of the moment, so we're
(05:26):
just going for it, and then lifekeeps happening, and then you
never get around to theconversation where you're
intentionally kind of planninghow are we going to go about
this?
What is it that we want to doso that our kids feel loved and
not intimidated, but also knowthat there's some boundaries
here?
Right?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, because I think a lot of times when something's
going on, even the frostedflakes, our brain somehow
receives that as this is anemergency that I need to jump
into right now and it startsrunning those scripts from your
own.
You know that programming fromyour childhood, from however
you're interpreting this moment,and it's really, really hard.
(06:06):
It is hard.
It's not an easy task to gowhoa, this is not the emergency,
I think it is.
I actually have a moment to moveinto intentionality and I think
that's that like that, you knowhe's down this road, even
though at that point we had kindof discussed the road we wanted
to be on, but he was cruisingdown this old road and I'm like
(06:31):
wait, wait, a second.
But his brain was there andit's really hard to kind of stop
that and pause long enough togo wait, what are we doing here?
Cause that, that script in ourhead, it's so strong and it's so
much work and it's daily workand even as far into it as we
are, we still have moments where, like wait, wait, I'm operating
(06:54):
from this belief system thatwas programmed into me and I
need to rewire that and I needto put in that effort of where
do I want to go Because it's notgoing to take me where I want
to go.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Well and I know you love sports, jordan, and so I
love using a good sportsmetaphor of when Sarah says that
and what I saw.
My journey as a dad to try tochange that reactivity is a
great sports metaphor is like abasketball player or a football
player that has a certain way ofthrowing the football or
shooting the basketball.
That, that's everything.
If you grew up shooting thebasketball a certain way, when
(07:29):
push comes to shove every game,you're going to revert back to
that.
Unless you do what, unless youget coaching on intentionally
how to change your form and howyou shoot that, and you're going
to need to practice that a lot.
But even then, when you getinto crunch time again, you're
probably for a good season or so.
(07:49):
You're still going to revertback to that old form, right,
and you're going to shoot itExactly.
You're going to shoot it theway you had always practiced,
because it is literally brainwiring.
It is a physiological reactionthat seems out of your control
and to some extent it is so.
When your kid says that or saysno to you and then you react,
(08:11):
it's because you as a kid gotthat same reaction from the
adults around you and so yourbrain is like that's what you do
when a four-year-old says, no,there's no other options.
At least in your brain.
There isn't any other optionsbecause you have been wired to
see that moment as an emergencyand I have to shoot the ball.
(08:32):
And so I know in my ownbasketball career which was just
like me, playing with friendsis, I could have a great form
playing with friends, but I havethis one six-foot-six friend,
and if that six-foot-six friendmake some loud footsteps like
he's coming, I immediately justchunk it up and I miss it and
he's.
He's nowhere near me, but justthe fear of him getting close
(08:53):
and pulling the ball out of myhands and making me look stupid,
I shoot it up really quick.
So it's the same way.
That's exactly what washappening that day, and so
really a key point is I've gotto know and just own that that's
just wiring.
It's what was done to me, it'show parents reacted to me, and
so I am going to repeat that,unless I'm intentionally
practicing a different form, adifferent way to approach it.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Such a great analogy that makes so much sense, and
you're talking about kind ofgoing back to your family of
origin to figure out where yourreactions are coming from, too
is to say, where in my historydoes this behavior that I might
have even surprised myself withtowards my own child come from?
(09:37):
Right, I think that's such animportant conversation to have
with your spouse.
Say, hey, you know where doesit come from for you, here's
where it comes from for me.
Okay, now let's figure out howwe're going to reprogram, rewire
our brain so that we areresponsive in ways that are
helpful for our kids, versusthat reactivity that you know
(09:59):
comes when we get stressed, whenthe pressure is on and
somebody's putting a littlepressure on us, like the
basketball game.
I love that.
I want to return to, sarah, whatyou said, like just this idea
that as parents, we feel likethis behavior that our child
just did is like an emergencyand we have to do something now.
Because here's what I'm hearingfrom especially grandparents
(10:22):
who are observing their childrenraising kids.
This is what they tell me,jordan, their kids are out of
control.
It's like the kids are runningthe show.
The parents are so stressedthat they just like ignore this
bad behavior that's going on inthe background.
It ruins our family.
Like get togethers because thekids are running amok and the
(10:45):
parents are just like haveabdicated their authority and
are just like pour me anotherglass of wine because this is my
vacation.
I can't stand it Right.
So there's a balance rightbetween like Urgently reacting
because you feel like, oh no,maybe we're in front of our
parents, so I have to quicklylike punish to, to stop the
(11:07):
behavior, and the other end ofthe spectrum where it's like you
know what, let kids be kids.
I'm doing me and I I'm out,right.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah, absolutely, because, yeah, it it.
The pause is to createintentionality, not to check out
.
The pause is not oh, this isn'tan emergency, so I'm gonna head
over here.
It is to regroup and go.
How can I intentionally createthe boundaries, create the
guidance, teach the skill that'sneeded?
But it is not to just ignore.
(11:40):
And that's a really bigdifference, because I think
sometimes when we seek to dosomething different, maybe we go
, okay, I'm not going to act,I'm not going to react, I'm not
going to react.
Then we just abandon everythingbecause we don't know what to
do.
It's hard work, learning it.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Well, and I'd say it's because, jordan, most of us
have been taught to live in adichotomous way, meaning there's
just two pathways Either we arereacting and we're getting
bigger and louder and we'recontrolling the kids, or the
kids are just out of control,right, and those are the two
options.
And so that's where I thinkit's so helpful for your
audience If they took a momentto grab a pen and paper, and I
want, sarah and I want to walkthrough something that we do
(12:16):
typically when we're coachingclients that the very first
meeting we have, we want to givethem an imagination of what it
could look like.
Because I really think, jordan,so many parents say to us you
don't punish your kids and youdon't reward them.
And I say and I say to them Idon't, because none of those
would work in my marriage eitherand it doesn't work with my
(12:37):
friendships either.
So I want to give them adifferent imagination of what
that could look like, where yourkids are actually in control of
themselves, they are actuallyself-disciplined instead of
being controlled by you.
So if they have that pen andpaper, what I'd like them to do
is just draw a line from the topto the bottom.
So just draw a vertical line,and then draw a line from the
(12:59):
left to the right.
So basically that's going to bea big plus sign.
And what we're going to do iskind of define what you just
said that you're hearing fromthe grandparents Okay, cause
it's good to give some words toit, because then we can
understand maybe where we're atand then where we want to go.
Okay.
So if you put, at that top ofthat vertical line just put high
expectations and at the bottomof the vertical line put low
expectations, so that line thereis going to be just assessing
(13:22):
the expectations we have on ourkids' behavior, right, and then
on that horizontal line, farright I want to put high support
, far left I want to put lowsupport.
So, once again, that's whereSarah and I are assessing what
kind of support do our kids needin this moment?
Maybe it's we need to bepresent, maybe it's our time,
maybe it's money, maybe it'sjust emotion.
Whatever it is right, we needto be able to see how are we
(13:42):
supporting them through this.
So if we could, we'll name themand just give a quick
description.
Okay, so in the bottom left, ifyou've got low support and low
expectations, let's just titlethat neglectful.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Now this one Makes sense.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Huh, it should make sense.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
That makes sense, yeah, okay.
So I love another word for thistoo, because sometimes I hear
it like neglectful.
A lot of parents will go.
I'm not neglectful, but, um, Iwant to use also the word
neglectful and uninvolved and Iwant to normalize this a little
bit, that we, you'll findyourself in each of these little
spot, these corners, atdifferent times in life.
So if you think, um,everything's going on, you're
(14:22):
working, or your, your parents,are ill, um, you've got a lot
going on, you might naturally,because of life and it getting
in the way, be a little lessinvolved a little checked out
yeah.
Yeah, so maybe you're not asaware of what's going on in the
day to day, moment by moment, ofyour child's life.
So sometimes that happens andthen some people just find
themselves drifting into thisbecause that's what was done to
(14:44):
them, or that's how life was forthem, and so they can tend to
check out.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, so almost like dad would just come home and
wouldn't be involved, and reallyhe just watched TV, look on his
phone, go to bed.
So then the top-.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
It's kind of like leaving the kids to raise
themselves, so to speak.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Yeah.
So the top left would be highexpectations, low support, and
we'd call that authoritarian.
So Top left would be highexpectations, low support, and
we'd call that authoritarian.
So an example I like to givethere is just the captain from
the Sound of Music.
Have you ever seen that oldclassic musical?
I mean the captain, his kidslove him and he loves his kids.
He blows the whistle and thekids come when dad blows the
whistle, but the kids don't cometo dad when they have problems.
They don't think dad's going tosupport them.
(15:21):
It's very much kind of amilitary type approach.
You do what I say, I expect youto be obedient, I expect
compliance and pretty much, ifyou don't do that, if you don't
reach my high expectations, I'mnot going to support you.
I'm just typically going topunish you.
So I'm going to take thingsaway, ground.
You spank you, those kinds ofthings.
So that's the authoritarian,where the parent has the control
(15:42):
, they have the power and thekid's trying to get some of that
power or freedom from thatparent.
But it really is about theparent controlling what they
want that kid to do.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
So then the bottom right yeah, that one is that's
high support.
Ok, let's name it firstPermissive parenting.
That is that really highsupport, really low expectation.
So if you look at theuninvolved, it's low expectation
, low support.
So, just kid, go out in theworld and figure this thing out.
But the permissive is I'm rightthere and I'm helping you, I'm
(16:17):
giving you all this support, butthen I don't really have
boundaries.
I'm not really asking much ofyou.
I'm not really.
It's the.
I think, um, it's kind of thebad rap that general parenting
is getting, which isn't reallyto me general parent, but you
know where it's like.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Oh, everything's chaos yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, and the mom is folding the clothes, even though
she's asked the kids to do it10 times and the kids are just
running around, you know likeworst case scenario in our minds
.
I think we've all can go there.
That can be permissiveparenting, and a lot of times
you'll find yourself going ohwell, I don't want to go here, I
don't want to be toocontrolling and I don't know
what else to do, so you findyourself falling back into
(16:54):
permissive parenting, or you'rejust exhausted and spent and you
might fall into that too.
I'm tired.
I've asked them so many times,I'm just going to do it myself,
yeah tired.
I've asked them so many timesI'm just going to do it myself.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to go clean the room?
Yes, which is a recipe forburnout?
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah, well, it's a recipe for burnout, and it's a
recipe to raise an obnoxiouschild, because what happens is
the kid learns and I learned asa kid how to cause my parents to
jump back and forth betweenauthoritarian and permissive
right, because what kids willrealize is oh, relationships are
about power, so whoever has thepower wins.
So what I would do is every kiddid this you ask your parent if
(17:31):
you can buy that thing or getthat thing when they're tired
and stressed and spent, and thenthey're more likely to say yes,
but you don't ask them whenthey seem really upset and
irritated.
And so kids start to learn howto use the skill of getting
power and using it to get whatyou want, and a lot of parents
only think those are the twooptions that jump back and forth
.
Either I'm controlling them orthey're controlling me.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
I want to jump in and say it's also real common for
couples for one to 10 to leanpermissive and the other one to
10.
And they almost further checkbecause they're like, oh you're
too much of this, so I need tolean more this way, or you're
too easy on them, so I need tobe extra hard on them.
So I think that's alsosomething we see that dynamic so
often in couples and that's Imean we'll get back around to
(18:15):
two.
You know parenting together,but when you're on two different
tracks you're kind of runningopposite directions and you can
imagine the confusion and allthe things that causes in your
family, the extra stress and allof those.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Well, it's almost Jordan kind of what you
described with thosegrandparents.
That's what they're feeling isthey're seeing like a lack of
control, a lack of power beingutilized, and they think, man,
somebody needs to step in andcontrol this right, as opposed
to somebody needs to step in andteach everybody here how to
control themselves.
Right, because that would bethe other option that none of us
really saw as kids for the mostpart.
Right.
(18:47):
So we want to get to the topright.
So the top right is highexpectations.
Sarah and I have very highexpectations on ourselves and on
our kids, but we have highsupport for ourselves and for
our kids, and there's a lot ofdifferent words you could use
for that, but just for thispodcast, we'll call it loving
guidance.
Okay, so loving guidance isthat top right to where?
Now, what that looks like issimilar to in my marriage.
(19:09):
I hope your listeners can seethis Marriage could be in any of
these categories too, right?
So, for instance, if I'm yellingat Sarah and Sarah doesn't like
that, then she might just yellback at me and tell me not to
yell at her, which that would bean authoritarian approach.
She also may be neglectful andjust be like, well, whatever, I
don't really care, check out.
She could be permissive and belike oh, kyle's had a bad day, I
(19:34):
shouldn't have asked him aboutthat.
I kind of deserve it.
Now, none of those in amarriage will we think are
healthy.
We would want Sarah to be up inthat top right and to look at
me and say hey, you seem reallymad right now, but you don't
need to yell at me to tell methat I'd like for us to talk in
a calm way and if we can't dothat now, let's take a break
till we can.
And so by her doing that, she'slovingly supporting me, setting
boundaries with me.
(19:55):
But it's the exact same thingI'd want to do with my kid, that
if the kid is not reaching theexpectation, then I want to find
a way to support them, to helpthem reach that expectation.
More thing I'd add is what'sgreat about that top right?
It has nothing to do with meusing power or them using power
(20:32):
against each other.
Now, of course, as a parent, Ido have authority per se or
power over my kids, but thatpower was never given to me to
use in opposition to them.
I am not opposed to my child.
I'm always for my child.
So I want them to be safe andsecure in knowing that dad and
mom's power is there to help me,is there to guide me, and the
(20:53):
reason why I want that isbecause, when they grow up, I
want them to use their power inthe same way for me to help me
when I need help and guidance.
I want them to be able to knowtheir power doesn't need to be
used in opposition to me and,I'm sure, every parent here.
When they were kids, I feltthat I felt the need to think of
ways to use my power to getaround things or talk my parents
into stuff and all these waysthat kids are labeled as being
(21:16):
manipulative, but it's reallyjust them saying this is the
game, this is the dance is weuse power to get the other
person to do what we want, andso maybe I can't threaten you
with force, but I can try tolike somehow trick you to doing
what I want you to do, right.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yes, yeah, that is part of child development, right
?
Their brains are developing andthey're observing how this game
is played out between the twoof you as parents, and so
they're jumping in and sayingokay, if I recognize that
they're they're splitting, youknow, and they're on different
wavelengths here, then I'm goingto use that in order to get the
(21:51):
outcome that I want and Ialways like to use that word get
the outcome that I want,because they're not using it to
you know, get at you and to youknow, control you and cut you
down.
They are trying constantly toget the outcome that they want
and we actually want them todevelop that skill over time so
(22:13):
that they can have healthyrelationships, they can be
successful in their, their jobsand their careers and they can
impact people in a positive way.
You use it for the good, so Ithink that's.
Another thing to remember isthat your kids aren't out to get
you.
They aren't little sociopaths,right?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
No, they're not little terrorists yeah, no,
we've heard that said Jordan.
You know, my kid's a littleterrorist, and that's where,
when you're in that top right,what's so beautiful about that
is it's actually all in yourcontrol, meaning that instead of
you controlling them, the focusis on what can I do to help
guide that other person, whetherit's my kid, my spouse, my
(22:51):
friend, towards the outcome thatI am wanting to happen.
Right, so it's me comingopen-handed and joining forces
with them to co-create adifferent ending.
It doesn't have to be meturning against you or me just
surrendering to you.
It's about us working together.
So that's why I typically loveparents on this four quadrant
(23:11):
approach.
I like them to think aboutwhere they land.
Right and this is a big part ofwhat we're talking about today
is Sarah and I did this exercise.
We assessed where we were.
She definitely leaned morepermissive in moments of stress.
I leaned way more authoritarian, and so you could see how we
were trying to somehow balanceeach other, because we thought
that was the only two ways to doit.
But once we learned of thisother option, it was really cool
(23:35):
to see how Sarah did it.
Like the way Sarah supportedwas different than the way I
would support.
But yet we kept the same goalof hey, is that expectation
healthy?
Is that expectation realistic?
If it is, how can I help themget there?
How could you do that?
And that's the beauty of usbeing different humans and
different people is the waySarah supports.
I just can't do it the way shedoes it.
(23:56):
Or if I try, it just looksweird.
And in the same way, if shetried to do what I do, it just
wouldn't look authentic, right,it would look fake.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I love this, the four quadrant approach.
I went to a talk from aparenting expert who did this
very same exercise on a bigwhiteboard and I was like, yes.
First of all, it validates thatthere are four different kind
of parenting and disciplinestyles Right, and that you
naturally lean towards one orthe other based on how you were
(24:28):
raised.
And now, how can you take yourdifferences in your upbringing
and your personality and yourtemperament with your spouse and
bring it together to that topright quadrant right?
That authoritative, lovingguidance, which will look much
different for your kids thanyour upbringing looked for you.
And one of the things I justwant to underscore is this idea
(24:50):
that you know that lovingguidance, the parenting and the
discipline from that perspective, is co-creating with your child
.
It's not this imbalance ofpower, it's not you being
opposed to your child or yourchild being chronically afraid
of you and living in this fear,but you're saying we are for you
(25:14):
.
There's going to be limits andboundaries and structure in
place and there will be somenatural consequences that you
will experience because of youracting out or whatever.
Yeah, but we are here to guideyou, to love you through this
and because of our wisdom andour years of experience, some of
(25:36):
the things that we're going tosay no to you're not going to
like it.
That's okay.
We trust that we know what youneed and we're doing this
alongside you.
So I do think that's adifference between the older
generation too who's like?
Man, somebody put the smackdown on these people.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
They're running amok, they're messing up my house
right.
And it's a higher calling too.
I mean, think about it.
I know you have a faith-basedaudience.
Yeah, it's really what God doeswith us.
I mean, god is in that topright and that's where for Sarah
and I, as people who faith isimportant to us is we want our
(26:13):
kids not to be confused somedaywhen they're told yeah, god is
there to help you, god is thereto support you.
And, like for many Christians,when they grow up in the church,
it's kind of confusing becausethey think God is there just to
tell them what to do and if theydon't do it, he's going to get
mad at them, right, becausethat's what they saw model.
We don't want that unhealthyinteraction with God.
We want them when God reachesout his hand and says, hey, can
(26:34):
I co-create this life with you?
The kid says, yeah, I want todo that.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I love the beauty of um.
It's really instead of thisexternal control.
You know I'm going to make youdo this because you have to, or
it's good for you, or whatever.
It's really just um in my mind.
I always imagine just comingalongside my child with my
wisdom, with my experience withyou know this guidance to build
(27:00):
something with them, somethingthat they're choosing into, that
they have a say.
Because I actually want my childyou were saying this I want my
child to know the control andpower that they have.
I actually want them to feelvery empowered and I want to
build that character inside ofthem.
So they're making these choices, you know, if it's to be kind
to my friend or to do myhomework, whatever it is, I
(27:23):
don't want them to feel like I'monly doing it because this is
going to happen to me if I don't.
I want them to choose that froma place of.
This is who I am, this is how Ishow up in the world and I love
that.
When you parent this way, whenyou come alongside your child
and build those skills and buildthat character with them,
they're then choosing thosethings and the older they get,
(27:44):
the more you're stepping furtheraway from that and you really
want to see that in them.
But if you've always beencontrolling, then it's always
come from the external, and theonly reason I go to work and I
do a good job is because I'mgoing to get a paycheck.
Otherwise I'm going to getwritten up Exactly.
What is the world if we're allthat way, versus I'm going to
show up and do a great job andbe kind to my neighbor and or
(28:07):
what you know?
Whatever, it is because ofsomething inside of me that I am
choosing, and so I love howthis does that with your
children.
It's really beautiful to watchand, as we've been doing it for
so long now in our children andwith other families, yeah, If I
can give a practical example forall your listeners.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Um, there was a time as I was trying to do this.
The kids are very little.
So our son, who's almost 13, hehad just been born and we had
gone to church that morning andour pastor was speaking about
the fruit of the spirit beingpeace.
And I remember just thinking,man, we've got such a peaceful
home, Our home is so great.
And I remember we come homethat day and as Sarah was
breastfeeding our son, Iremember our daughter just
(28:45):
freaked out.
She was probably like three anda half at that age and she
freaks out and tries to likealmost drag her brother off of
mom and mom and I was like whatis happening?
Where is the peace that we had?
So I didn't know what to do, butI was like I need to support
her through this.
So I pick her up, I bring herback to our back bedroom and I
knew the goal was to help herregulate this feeling.
(29:07):
We needed to get to a spacewhere she could manage whatever
she was feeling and be able tocommunicate that in a healthier
way.
So, as I'm back there and I'mjust like trying to talk to her,
it's not working, George, it'sjust like ramping it up.
So I just shut up and I juststart to pray and I just start
to ask God to help me and guideme, because I'm dad, what are
you doing?
And I said, honey, I'm justpraying because I have no idea
(29:28):
how to help you right now.
And as it got kind of quiet,then I looked at her and I said
why are you so mad?
And she said I don't know, dad.
And like the tears startedfalling down her face and
something in my heart said it'scalled jealousy.
She's never experienced itbefore.
And immediately I was floodedwith all the memories of feeling
jealous in my life and how hardthat was to regulate that
(29:51):
emotion.
And so I just sat with her andheld her while she cried and
then, by the time we were done,we were able to say, hey, what
is it you were wanting?
And she was able to communicatehow she isn't getting as much
time with mom because brother'staking up so much time, and like
she really just wanted to belike let's go back and ask mom
for some time today, but wedon't need to rip brother off of
mom, Right?
But that's an example of whereI had this high expectation,
(30:15):
Like we're not ripping anybodyoff anybody, we're not.
We're not going to aggressivelydemand, but I am going to help
you regulate that emotion andthen communicate what you want
so we can help support yougetting that.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
There was a legitimate need there and it was
.
You know, we could have justbeen like, oh, you need to be
punished for that behavior.
But really we needed to get tothe heart of it, what's going on
, and we needed to help her havethat inner awareness, because
she didn't have it.
She didn't know what that was,but to be able to explore that
with her so she could give voiceto it.
Then we could help her learnhow to meet that need in a
(30:49):
healthier way, in a more helpfulway, and so I just love how
that builds that internalawareness.
What's going on inside of me?
What do I need right now?
What do I want and how can Iget that?
How can I achieve that in a waythat helps everybody in the
family?
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Well and Jordan.
When I told that story to agood friend of mine at that time
, he said no-transcript.
(31:32):
I actually got to because ofthis approach.
I got to model what God hasdone to me hundreds of times and
that, at its core, is whatdiscipline is.
It's discipleship and that'swhere God had been discipling me
, and in that moment I discipledmy daughter on how to control
herself and then communicate herneeds in a way that was healthy
(31:53):
instead of hurtful.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
This is godly parenting folks, if you're
listening.
This is it right.
We are to be a model of Christto our children.
When we talk about loving ourneighbor, the closest person to
us, the closest neighbor we have, is number one our spouse.
Right, how would we treat them?
(32:16):
And then our children.
So I love this idea of thisloving guidance, the top right
quadrant of the formula here forreally just treating people
like you want to be treated.
And I want to underscore inthat example, kyle, when you
talked about, you know, yourdaughter just kind of like
(32:37):
having a tantrum when her newbaby brother is getting all the
attention from mom is that Ibelieve the first beautiful
grace that God gave you in thatmoment was just this insight and
awareness that you yourselfwere kind of ramping up and that
prayer just pausing to pray andpray out loud in front of your
(33:00):
kid right Gets you in the momentwhere you're going okay, I need
to calm down here and it's alsokind of like shocking her out
of her thing where she's goingdad.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
She was super confused, Like what are you
doing?
Why are you not yelling at me?
Or why are you not?
Yeah, she's like.
Why is he like muttering tohimself Like a crazy person?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Right, and then moving through, like you said,
sarah, getting to the heart ofthe matter.
I, when you said, man, I, wecould have just punished her
right away.
Listen, you need to go totimeout right now.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
This is your brother.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
He deserves blah, blah, blah.
Right, you could rip off awhole bunch of just reactive
things.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Shame them all that stuff yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It's the bandaid approach.
It never works.
It's the short-term hack.
What you are talking about withthis way of of disciplining and
loving and guiding your kids,it's the short-term hack.
What you are talking about withthis way of disciplining and
loving and guiding your kids,it's the long game.
Yes, it takes five minuteslonger than sending them off to
their room where they'reisolated and feeling even worse
about themselves in the timeout.
It's going to take you fivemore minutes, but it's going to
(34:04):
drastically change theirbehavior and increase the unity
and the relationship and empowerthem to have control, be able
to regulate their emotions andthen operate from a place of
love right.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
And even that brings it full back around to what we
started with is.
You know, we see, all of thesepart of that top right quadrant
is seeing conflict as notsomething to be scared of or
avoided, but it's an opportunityfor one of two things Either
it's going to push us furtheraway or it's going to bring us
closer together.
And so when you're in that topright quadrant, I saw this
(34:41):
moment as a moment.
I don't understand what'shappening to her and she doesn't
understand what's happening toher.
And so, through what happenedthere, not only did her and I
grow closer, but then I was ableto talk to Sarah about that
moment, and it drew us closer aswell, cause we were like, yeah,
we really haven't been likeshe's been somewhat neglected, a
little bit Like you mean somuch to her honey, and I know
(35:03):
the new baby's taking a lot oftime, but let me find ways to
take him and be with him whileyou be with her.
And it was like, oh, it was socool, and that's to me what the
family of God does.
That's what the family of Godis.
It isn't.
There's a conflict.
Go away until you cleanyourself up.
It's hey, I'm the one who youneed help from, so why would you
(35:23):
go away from me?
Let me help you, because Iseriously have never felt God do
that to me.
Every time I've been indistress, I felt him say draw
closer, come closer to me.
The closer you are to me, themore I can help you.
And that, to me, is exactlywhat I want to see our kids, I
want them to feel that modeled,see it modeled, so when they are
away from us, like Sarah said,they naturally move on, they
(35:46):
know they're not alone and theyknow how to ask for help when
they need it, from not only us,but their friends, from God.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
This is bringing up something big for me.
Okay, as you're talking aboutthis, it brings up this idea
that I think a lot of parentsreally don't trust that they are
the person that their childneeds to learn how to regulate
their emotions, to learn how totreat other people Right, and
(36:15):
and oftentimes I found being atherapist for 20 years that
parents would run their kidsinto the therapy office and say
you, you fix them.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
I do not have what it takes.
I don't know.
There's something going on withthis child and they even look
at you like good luck with thisone.
It's a totally different animal.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
It's a doozy.
You've never seen this before.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
And you assess the child and you're like, oh,
they're just lovely and justlike every other child that's
nine and going through thistransition of school and friends
and all this stuff, Right.
And so I just want tounderscore the fact that, guys,
if you're listening, God choseyou very specifically to be the
(36:58):
parent to your child, not aperfect parent, but to be a
loving, empowering parent thatyour children feel safe coming
to when they're in distress,when they can't figure out how
to regulate these big emotions.
They don't even know what'sgoing on to call them an emotion
.
They're just in their feelingsthat we really do have the
(37:19):
capacity to slow down, take abreath, recenter ourselves, Like
you said, Sarah, at thebeginning.
Recenter ourselves.
Like you said, Sarah, at thebeginning, this is not an
emergency.
We do not have to quick kneejerk.
You know discipline, but we cantake a moment and figure out
what is underneath here.
Let me help you figure out whatis what is happening underneath
(37:40):
the surface here that wouldinstigate this sort of reaction
from you, and let's, let's healthat Right, instigate this sort
of reaction from you and let's,let's heal that Right.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Yeah, and I love that you said you don't have to be a
perfect parent and and I and Ilove too that children want
their parent, they want thatclose relationship.
So where you feel like I'm notgood enough or I, you know we
get all these messages in ourhead as parents the guilt, the
shame.
All the places we know we'refailing and those can take the
(38:10):
thing can kind of go under thespotlight for us.
And that's just not true.
You were all learning andgrowing and we actually want our
children to see that we'relearning and growing because
they're learning and growing andso we can say look, you know
what I messed up and I'm notperfect, but I'm going to keep
learning and growing.
You know what I messed up andI'm not perfect, but I'm going
to keep learning and growing.
Yep yep and when you show up andyou model that to them, they
(38:32):
want you there.
They want you.
You're the person for them andeven if you don't know the magic
words or the perfect thing, ifyou're just with them, just be
present, with your attention andyour care and a listening ear
sometimes.
Sometimes that you're, you'redefinitely in those parenting
moments.
You're like I don't know, andthat's okay, we're all there and
(38:53):
we can circle back around, andwe can circle back around, and
we can circle back around.
Just know, if anything, just bethere, because your child does
need you.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Well, and I'd add to that that you are the parent for
that child and that child isthe child for you, that child.
I think all three of our kidshave transformed us in ways I
never expected, each one indifferent ways, and I can see
how they were exactly the kid Ineeded to become, the man I
asked God to create me into.
And that's where it's reallycool.
(39:22):
Once you're co-creating withthe kid, you realize that you
are there to disciple them, butin some they're there to
disciple you, because there's alot of ways we as adults have
been kind of messed up.
We have learned some toxic,unhealthy habits that they have
not yet learned.
And the kids to me, jordan, theyforgive quicker.
They're more apt to let go ofbitterness and hurt than I am,
(39:45):
and it's so beautiful to watchhow quick they want to love me
back when I've screwed up and ifI'm willing to receive that.
I mean I know from being anelementary school counselor the
best teachers are the bestlearners.
Is that that's really helpfultoo?
To have that?
That top right corner is aboutbeing a great learner and just
being open to saying what is thesupport they need, and they're
(40:06):
going to teach me how to becomea better human when I engage
that.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
So good, so so good, yes, and I think that top right
corner really being humble as aparent right, acknowledging our
failures, coming to our kidswith our tail between our legs
and going oh man, will youplease forgive me?
I just blew up back there atthat stoplight and I had no
(40:30):
business yelling at you likethat.
Can you forgive me, right?
Because we're going to rupturethese relationships with our
kids.
They're going to rupture withus.
We can't take it so personally.
Get, get full of shame and thenthink again well, I can't do
this.
I've got to, you know, get.
(40:53):
Get somebody from the outsideto take over this parenting.
Or we don't want our kids tofeel full of shame that they've
screwed up, but it's just thisconstant ability to repair the
relationship through humility,showing up for them.
That's different than theseother quadrants where you would
say oh no, I don't apologize.
You do this because I'm theparent I said so.
I don't owe you an explanation.
There's never going to be anapology from me, right?
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Well, because you said the humility you talked
about, they couldn't do thatbecause it'd be like letting go
of the power.
And there is was this fear.
If I say that, then they willnow use that against me or
somehow they're going to thinkthey won.
And so there was this fear todo that and I think that is a
beautiful part.
That's so freeing for the kids,that we get to help.
The families we help is whenparents do that.
(41:34):
You will see those kids justlike, respect them even more
because they're like, wow,they're able to really own it
and take responsibility andthink about your modeling.
You're taking responsibility foryour own actions and like you
want them to someday.
You know you want them to askfor forgiveness.
Like all those moments areawesome for you to oh, this is
how you do it this is whathappens when I make a mistake.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Okay, I can own it.
That's okay to do that.
I can be humble, I can go andrepair.
How do I do that?
Oh, I see how you're doing it.
Now I know how to do it.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
I mean everything you're, you're, we're laying out
.
There is just that how we learnand grow and repair and do
relationship with people.
Yeah, yeah, yes, oh, mygoodness.
So I have a question, because Ihave not met your three
children yet, although I keepinviting Sarah and Kyle to
Denver to sit on my back patio,bring their kids and let's just,
you know, visit and meet inreal life.
But, what types of feedback dopeople out in the community give
(42:32):
you about your own children?
Because I would guess thatthere's something a little bit
different about your three kidsbecause you have, you know,
adopted this, this style of ofparenting.
Yeah, what?
What are some things thatpeople say when they engage your
kids or maybe meet your kidsfor the first time that they
notice about them?
Speaker 3 (42:52):
Well, I guess the thing I would add I'm we were
always curious, anytime, like myparents.
You know, watch my kids rightand they were off doing.
I'll just ask my mom.
I'll say mom, what did you,what did you notice is different
about the kids right?
And what my mom will say allthe time.
She's like Kyle, when I wasraising you and your brother and
sister, it was mostly justtrying to keep you guys from
(43:13):
getting mad at each other, youknow, constantly trying to stop
conflicts from happening.
And she's like your kids theylook out for each other the
whole time.
They're helping each other.
She's like I never have to putout any conflict because they
talk about it, they discuss it.
That's a big deal to us is theyresolve conflict together?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
They have plenty of conflict.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
They do.
They have conflict, yes, butthey resolve it and she doesn't
have to jump in and feel likeshe's got to point fingers about
know, point fingers about whodid what you know.
They will resolve it, they willtalk it out and she's like,
just in general, they're justfor each other, they're not at
each other's throat, they're notagainst each other.
So that's, that's a reallybeautiful part that I always
love to just get my mom'sperspective, because obviously
(43:55):
that they know that we parentdifferently than my parents
parented, and so it's neat forthem to see how the skills, the
tools, the knowledge we have hashelped us change the legacy in
our family this way.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
I bet that is a really rewarding thing for your
parents to see that oh, we knowwe might've messed up in some
areas and we wish we could goback and do it different.
But look at our kids doing itdifferent, breaking that cycle,
and then being able to see thefruits of their grandchildren
growing up, being able toresolve conflict between them
(44:28):
without having interference, youknow, from the parents or
engagement, and then also justfor your kids to be able to
repair relationships and ask forforgiveness instead of having
the referee Like what abeautiful gift for them.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
I think, a couple of things that come to mind.
People will be surprised at howwell they make eye contact and
engage in conversation, evenwith adults, kind of the way
that they feel like they canshow up and have meaningful
conversation with all kinds ofages and that they have
something to contribute.
You know so I wasn't even setout necessarily to do that, it's
(45:08):
just something that people willcomment on and you know, as a
parent you just kind of pauseand go oh yeah, that's kind of.
You know it's like what else isgoing to happen.
And then another one I thinkactually comes more from when my
children talk to other childrenand it's oh, you still do
school, but what do you mean?
You're not going to getgrounded if you don't?
And that my children stillchoose to do things without
(45:31):
something hovering over them asa threat, without that
motivation of fear.
And it's more that other kidswho aren't used to that are
surprised that my kids are stillchoosing these things on their
own and it's very, for some ofthem, very foreign because
that's not what they're used to,that's not how life is for them
(45:52):
.
And so that's alwaysinteresting feedback to hear the
surprise in other children thatyou know it's like.
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (46:00):
You're still doing this, even though you won't get
your phone taken away, orsomething you know that they're
choosing these things on theirown.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
I could see how your kids would be like this.
This is how you are.
You even, sarah, when you'retalking, kyle's looking at you,
he's making eye contact with theside of your head, actually,
right, but you guys areattentive, you're not distracted
, you are genuinely engaged inwhat's happening in the moment.
And our kids pick up on this.
(46:29):
They are constantly observingus and they are like little
mini-me's running around, right,and so I think also what I'm
hearing in your message today isthat you know it's okay to work
on ourselves.
Still, it's actually necessaryfor us to constantly be growing
(46:51):
as husband and wife and begrowing in our own responses to
things that come up in our livesand to be consistent with those
responses at the workplace, atchurch, at home, so that our
kids do see, oh, this ispossible.
If I'm not there yet, I cancontinue to watch how mom and
dad resolve issues between thetwo of them, how dad responds to
(47:13):
something that blew up with hispractice or whatever, and then
it's just this constant modelingfor them.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
It's a lifelong journey right.
It's a lifelong journey toalways be growing.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
I hope your listeners hear that too.
The problem with the otherthree, besides what we've
already said, is the other threeare not sustainable for a
lifetime.
The other three, like manyparents, will come to us too for
coaching as their kids areswitching from being a teenager
into adulthood and they don'thave the tools on how to relate
to their kid as an adult.
(47:47):
And that's the problem isbecause now, all of a sudden,
they don't have the power theydon't feel like they can
threaten anymore and now they'reat a loss because they still
think that's their job tocontrol the kid's behavior.
But, man, I tell them, if youcould start this so much sooner
if the listeners who have theyounger kids if you can start
that at an earlier age, thesooner we let go of that and
just begin to do it with them.
(48:09):
That is the lifelong journey.
We never have to become anisolated family who's disengaged
from each other, but we'reconstantly using conflict as a
way to grow closer, becausethat's what we want to do with
them the rest of their lives andthat's what we want to do with
our marriage.
And I hope your listeners hearthat it isn't us doing it
perfect, it's us knowing what todo when we mess up.
That will not only draw uscloser to our kids, but draw us
(48:32):
closer as a couple.
And so I look at my kids andall the challenges we've had in
raising them, as any parent does, and I love Sarah more because
of those challenges and sheloves me more because of those
challenges, because we havechosen to embrace that these are
all opportunities for us totransform into the husband and
wife and the mom and dad, theman and woman that we wanted God
(48:55):
to create us into.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
I love this.
So if you're listening, parents, I just want you to recognize
that Kyle and Sarah are sayinglike these, these behavior
outbursts, these issues thatyou're having with your kids,
they're not obstacles, they'reopportunities.
They're opportunities to growcloser in love to one another as
parents.
Sometimes you're holding yourwife's hand or your husband's
(49:18):
hand and you're going just comeon, girl, we got to be on the
same page here.
Come on, boy, do not like lovehim.
Take a deep breath.
This moment's going to pass,right, but it's not.
Doesn't have to be thebreakdown of the family because
you have somebody who'stantruming or you have kind of a
choleric type child that you'reraising right.
(49:39):
It can be an opportunity togrow in love towards one another
and with your child.
So tell us a little bit aboutkind of the ideal couple that
would enter into coaching foryou.
What might a parent or a couplebe going through that would
(50:00):
indicate, hey, maybe we coulduse some guidance from Kyle and
Sarah with their coaching?
Speaker 3 (50:05):
Well, it's exactly like you already started, jordan
.
It's a couple that passionatelywants to change the legacy that
they are saying listen, hey, weappreciate what our parents did
for us, but we think it can bedone better.
We just confused what thatlooks like because we have no
imagination of what that couldbe like, and so typically the
ideal that comes to us isthey're wanting to get on the
(50:26):
same page.
The husband and wife are bothcoming at it differently, which
they will, because they're justdifferent people and they're
like how can we create a unifiedvision for our family where
we're able to actually create afamily that's connected,
cohesive, healthy and we'velearned these skills?
Like by the time they leave ourhouse at 18, we have mastered
(50:48):
these things with them, so wecreate this healthy, close
relationship for the rest oftheir life.
So when those couples come to us, that is so fun, because it is
so fun to watch them grab theskills that we'll teach them and
then implement them.
And then it's cool to see thekids grab the skills that we'll
teach them and then implementthem.
And then it's cool to see thekids grab the skill too, and
then they start doing it withtheir siblings, and now the
(51:08):
siblings are getting along, sowe love to coach families that
are in that space.
They're like.
I just want to change thelegacy.
I don't want to have adisconnected, isolated family.
I don't want us going intoseparate rooms on our iPads or
TVs.
I want us coming together,building memories and a deep
hearted connection, and so welove when those families come to
us and if they want to do that,I'd love for them to reach out
to me at Kyle atartofraisinghumanscom, and I'd
(51:31):
love to set up a short call withthem and we'll talk about them
if they're a right fit for theprogram, and it's just great to
be able to walk them throughthat.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Awesome, so good.
That's Kyle atartofraisinghumanscom.
And listen, if you've beenhanging with us this entire time
and you are now sort of likeconsciously aware that, oh, I've
been doing this in a way thatisn't supportive and isn't
(52:00):
helpful to my spouse or my kids,this is good.
This is good news.
The veil has been torn.
You are becoming aware ofsomething that's not working.
But let me tell you this onepodcast episode is not enough.
Just the awareness is notenough to make change.
So I don't see Kyle and Sarahas a competition for families of
(52:22):
character and I'm going, guys,I'm not going to advertise their
services.
I'm saying, if this is you andyou want to change and you
aren't sure how to take thefirst steps and you need some
accountability to show up like aweek later and say here's what
we tried and here's how it went,I'm encouraging you to sign up,
to sign up for the freeconsultation, to find out if
(52:44):
this is a fit for you.
Reach out to Kyle and Sarah attheartofraisinghumanscom and
they will.
They will hook you up, theywill take care of you.
I'm sure of that.
Speaker 3 (52:55):
Yeah, we'll take it from point A to point B, so by
the time that they're done, theywill know and have the skills
they need to transform thefamily the way they want to.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
I love it.
I would love to have a couplewho hears this on our show go
through your coaching and thencome back on the show and talk
about that.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
Wouldn't that be cool to see the transformation?
Yes, yeah, that would be great.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
So good, so good.
So, guys, also tune into theart of raising humans podcast.
This is a great podcast.
It's free information again.
Free parenting, free coaching,that you can just put your
earbuds in, grab a cup of coffee, do the laundry, walk around
the block, take in some, somegood advice from Kyle and Sarah
over in Tulsa, oklahoma.
(53:38):
So, guys, thanks for joining usagain.
This has been such a pleasureand we will keep you in our
prayers that you can continue toprovide this amazing support
for so many families reallyacross the nation, because you
can do this virtually right.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
Yeah, well, and Jordan, we want to say thank you
for having us on, but alsothank you for all the work you
do as well.
I mean we need as many peopleas possible helping parents know
and feel encouraged andequipped on how to raise kids
that are able to change thisworld in a positive way.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
Yeah, Amen to that.
Folks, I'm going to catch youon another episode of the
Families of Character show realsoon.
In the meantime, stay hopeful.
There's always an opportunityfor change when you are an
intentional parent, thinkingabout what you're doing, what's
working, what's not working.
Hope is on the horizon andthere's always opportunities for
(54:32):
growth.
So tune in to another episodeof our show and also, please
share this with as many peoplein your network as you can.
Text it out, send it in anemail to people.
That will help us reach moreand more families across the
globe.
Thanks for tuning in.
Hey there, friends.
Do you ever feel like you andyour spouse are playing two
different games when it comes todiscipline?
I mean, one minute you're calmand coaching and the next minute
your partner's just laying downthe law.
And then the kids?
Well, they're left confused or,worse, they've now taken over
(00:20):
and are in control.
So getting on the same pagewith discipline isn't just kind
of nice to have.
It's actually essential forcreating a united front and
raising kids who are securelyattached, respectful and
emotionally healthy.
When parents align on how toguide their children, home
(00:43):
becomes a place of clarity andconsistency, not chaos.
Welcome back to the show, guys.
I'm your host, jordan Langdon,and I am thrilled to welcome
back Kyle and Sarah Wester tothe Families of Character show.
You might remember them fromepisode 123 called Transforming
(01:05):
your Parenting Through Love, notFear, guys.
Kyle is a licensed professionalcounselor and former elementary
school counselor with over 20years of experience working with
kids and, together with hisbeautiful wife, sarah, a
parenting coach and fellowtherapist, the two of them have
really dedicated their lives toequipping families with the
(01:29):
tools that they need to raisekids with confidence and
compassion.
These two are the heart behindthe Art of Raising Humans, a
counseling and coaching practiceand a podcast where they unpack
real, practical ways to parentwithout fear or shame.
(01:50):
They're also parents of threeand bring a wealth of lived
experience both as professionalsand as a real life mom and dad
in the trenches.
So today they are joining us tohelp couples align on one of
the most important parts ofparenting discipline.
(02:12):
Because when we are united inhow we guide our kids, we're not
only giving them consistency,we're building trust, peace and
teamwork into the heart of ourhomes.
So welcome back to the show,kyle and Sarah.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Hello, thank you, jordan.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Hi, glad to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
That was a great intro.
You're right, that's exactlywhat we want to build.
You know what I was thinking,right, when you were saying that
.
I was thinking when Sarah and Ifirst were learning how to
parent together in regards tothis, and I remember at that
time we'd already had some greattraining, we read some mini
books and we were kind of on thesame page, we thought.
But there were these momentswhere I in particular would get
(02:56):
triggered.
At that time, our now15-year-old was only three,
maybe three or four, and her andI would just be butting heads.
I would just revert back towhat was done to me as a kid,
which was a lot of fear andintimidation, a lot of yelling,
and so I would be back thereyelling and, and I remember, I
would come into the living roomand Sarah would be sitting.
I remember this particular.
(03:16):
She was sitting on the groundfolding some laundry, which is
like an endless job when youhave little kids and she's in
there doing that, and I rememberSarah looked at me with all the
grace and compassion that shehad to muster and she said you
know, what you're doing is notwhat we would teach parents to
do.
I said, oh, oh, I know that,but this is happening, honey,
(03:37):
I'm going to finish what Istarted.
Later tonight I would love totalk to you about how I could do
that better, but at this pointthe train has left the station,
it's not going back, and so itwas.
I remember thinking, even as Iwent back in there and continued
to use old tactics that I knewweren't necessarily effective or
probably hurting myrelationship with my daughter.
Um, I knew I was going to comeback, have a conversation with
(03:59):
Sarah, we were going tobrainstorm it and we were going
to make a change into how tohandle those moments.
But in that moment I'm sure alot of your parents can relate
to this I just was seeing red.
I just could not see anotherpath.
It's like she opposed me and Ihad to oppose her back.
I had to win this battle.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yes, you chose the battle.
You chose to die on the hill,about the frosted flakes or
whatever right, yes.
Well, one of the things that Inotice is that, and even about
your example, is that most of usas parents, when it comes to
our kids' behavior, we are inthis reactive mode.
We have gotten ourselves sortof caught up in just reacting to
(04:44):
their behaviors versus sort oflining with our spouse and
coming up with a plan for how weare going to go about handling
their behavior issues, which areinevitable, right, they are
humans.
They're learning how to navigatethe world.
They don't have this down andwe should expect them to really
screw up a lot.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
But when you're in that reactive mode it never
bodes well and usually, like yousaid, one of us is looking at
the other like, yeah, you'replaying a different game here
than I am.
I would not do it like that.
But at the same time we don'thave time to discuss that right
in the heat of the moment, sowe're just going for it, and
then life keeps happening in theheat of the moment, so we're
(05:26):
just going for it, and then lifekeeps happening, and then you
never get around to theconversation where you're
intentionally kind of planninghow are we going to go about
this?
What is it that we want to doso that our kids feel loved and
not intimidated, but also knowthat there's some boundaries
here?
Right?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, because I think a lot of times when something's
going on, even the frostedflakes, our brain somehow
receives that as this is anemergency that I need to jump
into right now and it startsrunning those scripts from your
own.
You know that programming fromyour childhood, from however
you're interpreting this moment,and it's really, really hard.
(06:06):
It is hard.
It's not an easy task to gowhoa, this is not the emergency,
I think it is.
I actually have a moment to moveinto intentionality and I think
that's that like that, you knowhe's down this road, even
though at that point we had kindof discussed the road we wanted
to be on, but he was cruisingdown this old road and I'm like
(06:31):
wait, wait, a second.
But his brain was there andit's really hard to kind of stop
that and pause long enough togo wait, what are we doing here?
Cause that, that script in ourhead, it's so strong and it's so
much work and it's daily workand even as far into it as we
are, we still have moments where, like wait, wait, I'm operating
(06:54):
from this belief system thatwas programmed into me and I
need to rewire that and I needto put in that effort of where
do I want to go Because it's notgoing to take me where I want
to go.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Well and I know you love sports, jordan, and so I
love using a good sportsmetaphor of when Sarah says that
and what I saw.
My journey as a dad to try tochange that reactivity is a
great sports metaphor is like abasketball player or a football
player that has a certain way ofthrowing the football or
shooting the basketball.
That, that's everything.
If you grew up shooting thebasketball a certain way, when
(07:29):
push comes to shove every game,you're going to revert back to
that.
Unless you do what, unless youget coaching on intentionally
how to change your form and howyou shoot that, and you're going
to need to practice that a lot.
But even then, when you getinto crunch time again, you're
probably for a good season or so.
(07:49):
You're still going to revertback to that old form, right,
and you're going to shoot itExactly.
You're going to shoot it theway you had always practiced,
because it is literally brainwiring.
It is a physiological reactionthat seems out of your control
and to some extent it is so.
When your kid says that or saysno to you and then you react,
(08:11):
it's because you as a kid gotthat same reaction from the
adults around you and so yourbrain is like that's what you do
when a four-year-old says, no,there's no other options.
At least in your brain.
There isn't any other optionsbecause you have been wired to
see that moment as an emergencyand I have to shoot the ball.
(08:32):
And so I know in my ownbasketball career which was just
like me, playing with friendsis, I could have a great form
playing with friends, but I havethis one six-foot-six friend,
and if that six-foot-six friendmake some loud footsteps like
he's coming, I immediately justchunk it up and I miss it and
he's.
He's nowhere near me, but justthe fear of him getting close
(08:53):
and pulling the ball out of myhands and making me look stupid,
I shoot it up really quick.
So it's the same way.
That's exactly what washappening that day, and so
really a key point is I've gotto know and just own that that's
just wiring.
It's what was done to me, it'show parents reacted to me, and
so I am going to repeat that,unless I'm intentionally
practicing a different form, adifferent way to approach it.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Such a great analogy that makes so much sense, and
you're talking about kind ofgoing back to your family of
origin to figure out where yourreactions are coming from, too
is to say, where in my historydoes this behavior that I might
have even surprised myself withtowards my own child come from?
(09:37):
Right, I think that's such animportant conversation to have
with your spouse.
Say, hey, you know where doesit come from for you, here's
where it comes from for me.
Okay, now let's figure out howwe're going to reprogram, rewire
our brain so that we areresponsive in ways that are
helpful for our kids, versusthat reactivity that you know
(09:59):
comes when we get stressed, whenthe pressure is on and
somebody's putting a littlepressure on us, like the
basketball game.
I love that.
I want to return to, sarah, whatyou said, like just this idea
that as parents, we feel likethis behavior that our child
just did is like an emergencyand we have to do something now.
Because here's what I'm hearingfrom especially grandparents
(10:22):
who are observing their childrenraising kids.
This is what they tell me,jordan, their kids are out of
control.
It's like the kids are runningthe show.
The parents are so stressedthat they just like ignore this
bad behavior that's going on inthe background.
It ruins our family.
Like get togethers because thekids are running amok and the
(10:45):
parents are just like haveabdicated their authority and
are just like pour me anotherglass of wine because this is my
vacation.
I can't stand it Right.
So there's a balance rightbetween like Urgently reacting
because you feel like, oh no,maybe we're in front of our
parents, so I have to quicklylike punish to, to stop the
(11:07):
behavior, and the other end ofthe spectrum where it's like you
know what, let kids be kids.
I'm doing me and I I'm out,right.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah, absolutely, because, yeah, it it.
The pause is to createintentionality, not to check out
.
The pause is not oh, this isn'tan emergency, so I'm gonna head
over here.
It is to regroup and go.
How can I intentionally createthe boundaries, create the
guidance, teach the skill that'sneeded?
But it is not to just ignore.
(11:40):
And that's a really bigdifference, because I think
sometimes when we seek to dosomething different, maybe we go
, okay, I'm not going to act,I'm not going to react, I'm not
going to react.
Then we just abandon everythingbecause we don't know what to
do.
It's hard work, learning it.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Well, and I'd say it's because, jordan, most of us
have been taught to live in adichotomous way, meaning there's
just two pathways Either we arereacting and we're getting
bigger and louder and we'recontrolling the kids, or the
kids are just out of control,right, and those are the two
options.
And so that's where I thinkit's so helpful for your
audience If they took a momentto grab a pen and paper, and I
want, sarah and I want to walkthrough something that we do
(12:16):
typically when we're coachingclients that the very first
meeting we have, we want to givethem an imagination of what it
could look like.
Because I really think, jordan,so many parents say to us you
don't punish your kids and youdon't reward them.
And I say and I say to them Idon't, because none of those
would work in my marriage eitherand it doesn't work with my
(12:37):
friendships either.
So I want to give them adifferent imagination of what
that could look like, where yourkids are actually in control of
themselves, they are actuallyself-disciplined instead of
being controlled by you.
So if they have that pen andpaper, what I'd like them to do
is just draw a line from the topto the bottom.
So just draw a vertical line,and then draw a line from the
(12:59):
left to the right.
So basically that's going to bea big plus sign.
And what we're going to do iskind of define what you just
said that you're hearing fromthe grandparents Okay, cause
it's good to give some words toit, because then we can
understand maybe where we're atand then where we want to go.
Okay.
So if you put, at that top ofthat vertical line just put high
expectations and at the bottomof the vertical line put low
expectations, so that line thereis going to be just assessing
(13:22):
the expectations we have on ourkids' behavior, right, and then
on that horizontal line, farright I want to put high support
, far left I want to put lowsupport.
So, once again, that's whereSarah and I are assessing what
kind of support do our kids needin this moment?
Maybe it's we need to bepresent, maybe it's our time,
maybe it's money, maybe it'sjust emotion.
Whatever it is right, we needto be able to see how are we
(13:42):
supporting them through this.
So if we could, we'll name themand just give a quick
description.
Okay, so in the bottom left, ifyou've got low support and low
expectations, let's just titlethat neglectful.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Now this one Makes sense.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Huh, it should make sense.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
That makes sense, yeah, okay.
So I love another word for thistoo, because sometimes I hear
it like neglectful.
A lot of parents will go.
I'm not neglectful, but, um, Iwant to use also the word
neglectful and uninvolved and Iwant to normalize this a little
bit, that we, you'll findyourself in each of these little
spot, these corners, atdifferent times in life.
So if you think, um,everything's going on, you're
(14:22):
working, or your, your parents,are ill, um, you've got a lot
going on, you might naturally,because of life and it getting
in the way, be a little lessinvolved a little checked out
yeah.
Yeah, so maybe you're not asaware of what's going on in the
day to day, moment by moment, ofyour child's life.
So sometimes that happens andthen some people just find
themselves drifting into thisbecause that's what was done to
(14:44):
them, or that's how life was forthem, and so they can tend to
check out.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, so almost like dad would just come home and
wouldn't be involved, and reallyhe just watched TV, look on his
phone, go to bed.
So then the top-.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
It's kind of like leaving the kids to raise
themselves, so to speak.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Yeah.
So the top left would be highexpectations, low support, and
we'd call that authoritarian.
So Top left would be highexpectations, low support, and
we'd call that authoritarian.
So an example I like to givethere is just the captain from
the Sound of Music.
Have you ever seen that oldclassic musical?
I mean the captain, his kidslove him and he loves his kids.
He blows the whistle and thekids come when dad blows the
whistle, but the kids don't cometo dad when they have problems.
They don't think dad's going tosupport them.
(15:21):
It's very much kind of amilitary type approach.
You do what I say, I expect youto be obedient, I expect
compliance and pretty much, ifyou don't do that, if you don't
reach my high expectations, I'mnot going to support you.
I'm just typically going topunish you.
So I'm going to take thingsaway, ground.
You spank you, those kinds ofthings.
So that's the authoritarian,where the parent has the control
(15:42):
, they have the power and thekid's trying to get some of that
power or freedom from thatparent.
But it really is about theparent controlling what they
want that kid to do.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
So then the bottom right yeah, that one is that's
high support.
Ok, let's name it firstPermissive parenting.
That is that really highsupport, really low expectation.
So if you look at theuninvolved, it's low expectation
, low support.
So, just kid, go out in theworld and figure this thing out.
But the permissive is I'm rightthere and I'm helping you, I'm
(16:17):
giving you all this support, butthen I don't really have
boundaries.
I'm not really asking much ofyou.
I'm not really.
It's the.
I think, um, it's kind of thebad rap that general parenting
is getting, which isn't reallyto me general parent, but you
know where it's like.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Oh, everything's chaos yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, and the mom is folding the clothes, even though
she's asked the kids to do it10 times and the kids are just
running around, you know likeworst case scenario in our minds
.
I think we've all can go there.
That can be permissiveparenting, and a lot of times
you'll find yourself going ohwell, I don't want to go here, I
don't want to be toocontrolling and I don't know
what else to do, so you findyourself falling back into
(16:54):
permissive parenting, or you'rejust exhausted and spent and you
might fall into that too.
I'm tired.
I've asked them so many times,I'm just going to do it myself,
yeah tired.
I've asked them so many timesI'm just going to do it myself.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to go clean the room?
Yes, which is a recipe forburnout?
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah, well, it's a recipe for burnout, and it's a
recipe to raise an obnoxiouschild, because what happens is
the kid learns and I learned asa kid how to cause my parents to
jump back and forth betweenauthoritarian and permissive
right, because what kids willrealize is oh, relationships are
about power, so whoever has thepower wins.
So what I would do is every kiddid this you ask your parent if
(17:31):
you can buy that thing or getthat thing when they're tired
and stressed and spent, and thenthey're more likely to say yes,
but you don't ask them whenthey seem really upset and
irritated.
And so kids start to learn howto use the skill of getting
power and using it to get whatyou want, and a lot of parents
only think those are the twooptions that jump back and forth
.
Either I'm controlling them orthey're controlling me.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
I want to jump in and say it's also real common for
couples for one to 10 to leanpermissive and the other one to
10.
And they almost further checkbecause they're like, oh you're
too much of this, so I need tolean more this way, or you're
too easy on them, so I need tobe extra hard on them.
So I think that's alsosomething we see that dynamic so
often in couples and that's Imean we'll get back around to
(18:15):
two.
You know parenting together,but when you're on two different
tracks you're kind of runningopposite directions and you can
imagine the confusion and allthe things that causes in your
family, the extra stress and allof those.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Well, it's almost Jordan kind of what you
described with thosegrandparents.
That's what they're feeling isthey're seeing like a lack of
control, a lack of power beingutilized, and they think, man,
somebody needs to step in andcontrol this right, as opposed
to somebody needs to step in andteach everybody here how to
control themselves.
Right, because that would bethe other option that none of us
really saw as kids for the mostpart.
Right.
(18:47):
So we want to get to the topright.
So the top right is highexpectations.
Sarah and I have very highexpectations on ourselves and on
our kids, but we have highsupport for ourselves and for
our kids, and there's a lot ofdifferent words you could use
for that, but just for thispodcast, we'll call it loving
guidance.
Okay, so loving guidance isthat top right to where?
Now, what that looks like issimilar to in my marriage.
(19:09):
I hope your listeners can seethis Marriage could be in any of
these categories too, right?
So, for instance, if I'm yellingat Sarah and Sarah doesn't like
that, then she might just yellback at me and tell me not to
yell at her, which that would bean authoritarian approach.
She also may be neglectful andjust be like, well, whatever, I
don't really care, check out.
She could be permissive and belike oh, kyle's had a bad day, I
(19:34):
shouldn't have asked him aboutthat.
I kind of deserve it.
Now, none of those in amarriage will we think are
healthy.
We would want Sarah to be up inthat top right and to look at
me and say hey, you seem reallymad right now, but you don't
need to yell at me to tell methat I'd like for us to talk in
a calm way and if we can't dothat now, let's take a break
till we can.
And so by her doing that, she'slovingly supporting me, setting
boundaries with me.
(19:55):
But it's the exact same thingI'd want to do with my kid, that
if the kid is not reaching theexpectation, then I want to find
a way to support them, to helpthem reach that expectation.
More thing I'd add is what'sgreat about that top right?
It has nothing to do with meusing power or them using power
(20:32):
against each other.
Now, of course, as a parent, Ido have authority per se or
power over my kids, but thatpower was never given to me to
use in opposition to them.
I am not opposed to my child.
I'm always for my child.
So I want them to be safe andsecure in knowing that dad and
mom's power is there to help me,is there to guide me, and the
(20:53):
reason why I want that isbecause, when they grow up, I
want them to use their power inthe same way for me to help me
when I need help and guidance.
I want them to be able to knowtheir power doesn't need to be
used in opposition to me and,I'm sure, every parent here.
When they were kids, I feltthat I felt the need to think of
ways to use my power to getaround things or talk my parents
into stuff and all these waysthat kids are labeled as being
(21:16):
manipulative, but it's reallyjust them saying this is the
game, this is the dance is weuse power to get the other
person to do what we want, andso maybe I can't threaten you
with force, but I can try tolike somehow trick you to doing
what I want you to do, right.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yes, yeah, that is part of child development, right
?
Their brains are developing andthey're observing how this game
is played out between the twoof you as parents, and so
they're jumping in and sayingokay, if I recognize that
they're they're splitting, youknow, and they're on different
wavelengths here, then I'm goingto use that in order to get the
(21:51):
outcome that I want and Ialways like to use that word get
the outcome that I want,because they're not using it to
you know, get at you and to youknow, control you and cut you
down.
They are trying constantly toget the outcome that they want
and we actually want them todevelop that skill over time so
(22:13):
that they can have healthyrelationships, they can be
successful in their, their jobsand their careers and they can
impact people in a positive way.
You use it for the good, so Ithink that's.
Another thing to remember isthat your kids aren't out to get
you.
They aren't little sociopaths,right?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
No, they're not little terrorists yeah, no,
we've heard that said Jordan.
You know, my kid's a littleterrorist, and that's where,
when you're in that top right,what's so beautiful about that
is it's actually all in yourcontrol, meaning that instead of
you controlling them, the focusis on what can I do to help
guide that other person, whetherit's my kid, my spouse, my
(22:51):
friend, towards the outcome thatI am wanting to happen.
Right, so it's me comingopen-handed and joining forces
with them to co-create adifferent ending.
It doesn't have to be meturning against you or me just
surrendering to you.
It's about us working together.
So that's why I typically loveparents on this four quadrant
(23:11):
approach.
I like them to think aboutwhere they land.
Right and this is a big part ofwhat we're talking about today
is Sarah and I did this exercise.
We assessed where we were.
She definitely leaned morepermissive in moments of stress.
I leaned way more authoritarian, and so you could see how we
were trying to somehow balanceeach other, because we thought
that was the only two ways to doit.
But once we learned of thisother option, it was really cool
(23:35):
to see how Sarah did it.
Like the way Sarah supportedwas different than the way I
would support.
But yet we kept the same goalof hey, is that expectation
healthy?
Is that expectation realistic?
If it is, how can I help themget there?
How could you do that?
And that's the beauty of usbeing different humans and
different people is the waySarah supports.
I just can't do it the way shedoes it.
(23:56):
Or if I try, it just looksweird.
And in the same way, if shetried to do what I do, it just
wouldn't look authentic, right,it would look fake.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I love this, the four quadrant approach.
I went to a talk from aparenting expert who did this
very same exercise on a bigwhiteboard and I was like, yes.
First of all, it validates thatthere are four different kind
of parenting and disciplinestyles Right, and that you
naturally lean towards one orthe other based on how you were
(24:28):
raised.
And now, how can you take yourdifferences in your upbringing
and your personality and yourtemperament with your spouse and
bring it together to that topright quadrant right?
That authoritative, lovingguidance, which will look much
different for your kids thanyour upbringing looked for you.
And one of the things I justwant to underscore is this idea
(24:50):
that you know that lovingguidance, the parenting and the
discipline from that perspective, is co-creating with your child
.
It's not this imbalance ofpower, it's not you being
opposed to your child or yourchild being chronically afraid
of you and living in this fear,but you're saying we are for you
(25:14):
.
There's going to be limits andboundaries and structure in
place and there will be somenatural consequences that you
will experience because of youracting out or whatever.
Yeah, but we are here to guideyou, to love you through this
and because of our wisdom andour years of experience, some of
(25:36):
the things that we're going tosay no to you're not going to
like it.
That's okay.
We trust that we know what youneed and we're doing this
alongside you.
So I do think that's adifference between the older
generation too who's like?
Man, somebody put the smackdown on these people.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
They're running amok, they're messing up my house
right.
And it's a higher calling too.
I mean, think about it.
I know you have a faith-basedaudience.
Yeah, it's really what God doeswith us.
I mean, god is in that topright and that's where for Sarah
and I, as people who faith isimportant to us is we want our
(26:13):
kids not to be confused somedaywhen they're told yeah, god is
there to help you, god is thereto support you.
And, like for many Christians,when they grow up in the church,
it's kind of confusing becausethey think God is there just to
tell them what to do and if theydon't do it, he's going to get
mad at them, right, becausethat's what they saw model.
We don't want that unhealthyinteraction with God.
We want them when God reachesout his hand and says, hey, can
(26:34):
I co-create this life with you?
The kid says, yeah, I want todo that.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I love the beauty of um.
It's really instead of thisexternal control.
You know I'm going to make youdo this because you have to, or
it's good for you, or whatever.
It's really just um in my mind.
I always imagine just comingalongside my child with my
wisdom, with my experience withyou know this guidance to build
(27:00):
something with them, somethingthat they're choosing into, that
they have a say.
Because I actually want my childyou were saying this I want my
child to know the control andpower that they have.
I actually want them to feelvery empowered and I want to
build that character inside ofthem.
So they're making these choices, you know, if it's to be kind
to my friend or to do myhomework, whatever it is, I
(27:23):
don't want them to feel like I'monly doing it because this is
going to happen to me if I don't.
I want them to choose that froma place of.
This is who I am, this is how Ishow up in the world and I love
that.
When you parent this way, whenyou come alongside your child
and build those skills and buildthat character with them,
they're then choosing thosethings and the older they get,
(27:44):
the more you're stepping furtheraway from that and you really
want to see that in them.
But if you've always beencontrolling, then it's always
come from the external, and theonly reason I go to work and I
do a good job is because I'mgoing to get a paycheck.
Otherwise I'm going to getwritten up Exactly.
What is the world if we're allthat way, versus I'm going to
show up and do a great job andbe kind to my neighbor and or
(28:07):
what you know?
Whatever, it is because ofsomething inside of me that I am
choosing, and so I love howthis does that with your
children.
It's really beautiful to watchand, as we've been doing it for
so long now in our children andwith other families, yeah, If I
can give a practical example forall your listeners.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Um, there was a time as I was trying to do this.
The kids are very little.
So our son, who's almost 13, hehad just been born and we had
gone to church that morning andour pastor was speaking about
the fruit of the spirit beingpeace.
And I remember just thinking,man, we've got such a peaceful
home, Our home is so great.
And I remember we come homethat day and as Sarah was
breastfeeding our son, Iremember our daughter just
(28:45):
freaked out.
She was probably like three anda half at that age and she
freaks out and tries to likealmost drag her brother off of
mom and mom and I was like whatis happening?
Where is the peace that we had?
So I didn't know what to do, butI was like I need to support
her through this.
So I pick her up, I bring herback to our back bedroom and I
knew the goal was to help herregulate this feeling.
(29:07):
We needed to get to a spacewhere she could manage whatever
she was feeling and be able tocommunicate that in a healthier
way.
So, as I'm back there and I'mjust like trying to talk to her,
it's not working, George, it'sjust like ramping it up.
So I just shut up and I juststart to pray and I just start
to ask God to help me and guideme, because I'm dad, what are
you doing?
And I said, honey, I'm justpraying because I have no idea
(29:28):
how to help you right now.
And as it got kind of quiet,then I looked at her and I said
why are you so mad?
And she said I don't know, dad.
And like the tears startedfalling down her face and
something in my heart said it'scalled jealousy.
She's never experienced itbefore.
And immediately I was floodedwith all the memories of feeling
jealous in my life and how hardthat was to regulate that
(29:51):
emotion.
And so I just sat with her andheld her while she cried and
then, by the time we were done,we were able to say, hey, what
is it you were wanting?
And she was able to communicatehow she isn't getting as much
time with mom because brother'staking up so much time, and like
she really just wanted to belike let's go back and ask mom
for some time today, but wedon't need to rip brother off of
mom, Right?
But that's an example of whereI had this high expectation,
(30:15):
Like we're not ripping anybodyoff anybody, we're not.
We're not going to aggressivelydemand, but I am going to help
you regulate that emotion andthen communicate what you want
so we can help support yougetting that.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
There was a legitimate need there and it was
.
You know, we could have justbeen like, oh, you need to be
punished for that behavior.
But really we needed to get tothe heart of it, what's going on
, and we needed to help her havethat inner awareness, because
she didn't have it.
She didn't know what that was,but to be able to explore that
with her so she could give voiceto it.
Then we could help her learnhow to meet that need in a
(30:49):
healthier way, in a more helpfulway, and so I just love how
that builds that internalawareness.
What's going on inside of me?
What do I need right now?
What do I want and how can Iget that?
How can I achieve that in a waythat helps everybody in the
family?
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Well and Jordan.
When I told that story to agood friend of mine at that time
, he said no-transcript.
(31:32):
I actually got to because ofthis approach.
I got to model what God hasdone to me hundreds of times and
that, at its core, is whatdiscipline is.
It's discipleship and that'swhere God had been discipling me
, and in that moment I discipledmy daughter on how to control
herself and then communicate herneeds in a way that was healthy
(31:53):
instead of hurtful.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
This is godly parenting folks, if you're
listening.
This is it right.
We are to be a model of Christto our children.
When we talk about loving ourneighbor, the closest person to
us, the closest neighbor we have, is number one our spouse.
Right, how would we treat them?
(32:16):
And then our children.
So I love this idea of thisloving guidance, the top right
quadrant of the formula here forreally just treating people
like you want to be treated.
And I want to underscore inthat example, kyle, when you
talked about, you know, yourdaughter just kind of like
(32:37):
having a tantrum when her newbaby brother is getting all the
attention from mom is that Ibelieve the first beautiful
grace that God gave you in thatmoment was just this insight and
awareness that you yourselfwere kind of ramping up and that
prayer just pausing to pray andpray out loud in front of your
(33:00):
kid right Gets you in the momentwhere you're going okay, I need
to calm down here and it's alsokind of like shocking her out
of her thing where she's goingdad.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
She was super confused, Like what are you
doing?
Why are you not yelling at me?
Or why are you not?
Yeah, she's like.
Why is he like muttering tohimself Like a crazy person?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Right, and then moving through, like you said,
sarah, getting to the heart ofthe matter.
I, when you said, man, I, wecould have just punished her
right away.
Listen, you need to go totimeout right now.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
This is your brother.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
He deserves blah, blah, blah.
Right, you could rip off awhole bunch of just reactive
things.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Shame them all that stuff yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It's the bandaid approach.
It never works.
It's the short-term hack.
What you are talking about withthis way of of disciplining and
loving and guiding your kids,it's the short-term hack.
What you are talking about withthis way of disciplining and
loving and guiding your kids,it's the long game.
Yes, it takes five minuteslonger than sending them off to
their room where they'reisolated and feeling even worse
about themselves in the timeout.
It's going to take you fivemore minutes, but it's going to
(34:04):
drastically change theirbehavior and increase the unity
and the relationship and empowerthem to have control, be able
to regulate their emotions andthen operate from a place of
love right.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
And even that brings it full back around to what we
started with is.
You know, we see, all of thesepart of that top right quadrant
is seeing conflict as notsomething to be scared of or
avoided, but it's an opportunityfor one of two things Either
it's going to push us furtheraway or it's going to bring us
closer together.
And so when you're in that topright quadrant, I saw this
(34:41):
moment as a moment.
I don't understand what'shappening to her and she doesn't
understand what's happening toher.
And so, through what happenedthere, not only did her and I
grow closer, but then I was ableto talk to Sarah about that
moment, and it drew us closer aswell, cause we were like, yeah,
we really haven't been likeshe's been somewhat neglected, a
little bit Like you mean somuch to her honey, and I know
(35:03):
the new baby's taking a lot oftime, but let me find ways to
take him and be with him whileyou be with her.
And it was like, oh, it was socool, and that's to me what the
family of God does.
That's what the family of Godis.
It isn't.
There's a conflict.
Go away until you cleanyourself up.
It's hey, I'm the one who youneed help from, so why would you
(35:23):
go away from me?
Let me help you, because Iseriously have never felt God do
that to me.
Every time I've been indistress, I felt him say draw
closer, come closer to me.
The closer you are to me, themore I can help you.
And that, to me, is exactlywhat I want to see our kids, I
want them to feel that modeled,see it modeled, so when they are
away from us, like Sarah said,they naturally move on, they
(35:46):
know they're not alone and theyknow how to ask for help when
they need it, from not only us,but their friends, from God.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
This is bringing up something big for me.
Okay, as you're talking aboutthis, it brings up this idea
that I think a lot of parentsreally don't trust that they are
the person that their childneeds to learn how to regulate
their emotions, to learn how totreat other people Right, and
(36:15):
and oftentimes I found being atherapist for 20 years that
parents would run their kidsinto the therapy office and say
you, you fix them.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
I do not have what it takes.
I don't know.
There's something going on withthis child and they even look
at you like good luck with thisone.
It's a totally different animal.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
It's a doozy.
You've never seen this before.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
And you assess the child and you're like, oh,
they're just lovely and justlike every other child that's
nine and going through thistransition of school and friends
and all this stuff, Right.
And so I just want tounderscore the fact that, guys,
if you're listening, God choseyou very specifically to be the
(36:58):
parent to your child, not aperfect parent, but to be a
loving, empowering parent thatyour children feel safe coming
to when they're in distress,when they can't figure out how
to regulate these big emotions.
They don't even know what'sgoing on to call them an emotion
.
They're just in their feelingsthat we really do have the
(37:19):
capacity to slow down, take abreath, recenter ourselves, Like
you said, Sarah, at thebeginning.
Recenter ourselves.
Like you said, Sarah, at thebeginning, this is not an
emergency.
We do not have to quick kneejerk.
You know discipline, but we cantake a moment and figure out
what is underneath here.
Let me help you figure out whatis what is happening underneath
(37:40):
the surface here that wouldinstigate this sort of reaction
from you, and let's, let's healthat Right, instigate this sort
of reaction from you and let's,let's heal that Right.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Yeah, and I love that you said you don't have to be a
perfect parent and and I and Ilove too that children want
their parent, they want thatclose relationship.
So where you feel like I'm notgood enough or I, you know we
get all these messages in ourhead as parents the guilt, the
shame.
All the places we know we'refailing and those can take the
(38:10):
thing can kind of go under thespotlight for us.
And that's just not true.
You were all learning andgrowing and we actually want our
children to see that we'relearning and growing because
they're learning and growing andso we can say look, you know
what I messed up and I'm notperfect, but I'm going to keep
learning and growing.
You know what I messed up andI'm not perfect, but I'm going
to keep learning and growing.
Yep yep and when you show up andyou model that to them, they
(38:32):
want you there.
They want you.
You're the person for them andeven if you don't know the magic
words or the perfect thing, ifyou're just with them, just be
present, with your attention andyour care and a listening ear
sometimes.
Sometimes that you're, you'redefinitely in those parenting
moments.
You're like I don't know, andthat's okay, we're all there and
(38:53):
we can circle back around, andwe can circle back around, and
we can circle back around.
Just know, if anything, just bethere, because your child does
need you.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Well, and I'd add to that that you are the parent for
that child and that child isthe child for you, that child.
I think all three of our kidshave transformed us in ways I
never expected, each one indifferent ways, and I can see
how they were exactly the kid Ineeded to become, the man I
asked God to create me into.
And that's where it's reallycool.
(39:22):
Once you're co-creating withthe kid, you realize that you
are there to disciple them, butin some they're there to
disciple you, because there's alot of ways we as adults have
been kind of messed up.
We have learned some toxic,unhealthy habits that they have
not yet learned.
And the kids to me, jordan, theyforgive quicker.
They're more apt to let go ofbitterness and hurt than I am,
(39:45):
and it's so beautiful to watchhow quick they want to love me
back when I've screwed up and ifI'm willing to receive that.
I mean I know from being anelementary school counselor the
best teachers are the bestlearners.
Is that that's really helpfultoo?
To have that?
That top right corner is aboutbeing a great learner and just
being open to saying what is thesupport they need, and they're
(40:06):
going to teach me how to becomea better human when I engage
that.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
So good, so so good, yes, and I think that top right
corner really being humble as aparent right, acknowledging our
failures, coming to our kidswith our tail between our legs
and going oh man, will youplease forgive me?
I just blew up back there atthat stoplight and I had no
(40:30):
business yelling at you likethat.
Can you forgive me, right?
Because we're going to rupturethese relationships with our
kids.
They're going to rupture withus.
We can't take it so personally.
Get, get full of shame and thenthink again well, I can't do
this.
I've got to, you know, get.
(40:53):
Get somebody from the outsideto take over this parenting.
Or we don't want our kids tofeel full of shame that they've
screwed up, but it's just thisconstant ability to repair the
relationship through humility,showing up for them.
That's different than theseother quadrants where you would
say oh no, I don't apologize.
You do this because I'm theparent I said so.
I don't owe you an explanation.
There's never going to be anapology from me, right?
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Well, because you said the humility you talked
about, they couldn't do thatbecause it'd be like letting go
of the power.
And there is was this fear.
If I say that, then they willnow use that against me or
somehow they're going to thinkthey won.
And so there was this fear todo that and I think that is a
beautiful part.
That's so freeing for the kids,that we get to help.
The families we help is whenparents do that.
(41:34):
You will see those kids justlike, respect them even more
because they're like, wow,they're able to really own it
and take responsibility andthink about your modeling.
You're taking responsibility foryour own actions and like you
want them to someday.
You know you want them to askfor forgiveness.
Like all those moments areawesome for you to oh, this is
how you do it this is whathappens when I make a mistake.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Okay, I can own it.
That's okay to do that.
I can be humble, I can go andrepair.
How do I do that?
Oh, I see how you're doing it.
Now I know how to do it.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
I mean everything you're, you're, we're laying out
.
There is just that how we learnand grow and repair and do
relationship with people.
Yeah, yeah, yes, oh, mygoodness.
So I have a question, because Ihave not met your three
children yet, although I keepinviting Sarah and Kyle to
Denver to sit on my back patio,bring their kids and let's just,
you know, visit and meet inreal life.
But, what types of feedback dopeople out in the community give
(42:32):
you about your own children?
Because I would guess thatthere's something a little bit
different about your three kidsbecause you have, you know,
adopted this, this style of ofparenting.
Yeah, what?
What are some things thatpeople say when they engage your
kids or maybe meet your kidsfor the first time that they
notice about them?
Speaker 3 (42:52):
Well, I guess the thing I would add I'm we were
always curious, anytime, like myparents.
You know, watch my kids rightand they were off doing.
I'll just ask my mom.
I'll say mom, what did you,what did you notice is different
about the kids right?
And what my mom will say allthe time.
She's like Kyle, when I wasraising you and your brother and
sister, it was mostly justtrying to keep you guys from
(43:13):
getting mad at each other, youknow, constantly trying to stop
conflicts from happening.
And she's like your kids theylook out for each other the
whole time.
They're helping each other.
She's like I never have to putout any conflict because they
talk about it, they discuss it.
That's a big deal to us is theyresolve conflict together?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
They have plenty of conflict.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
They do.
They have conflict, yes, butthey resolve it and she doesn't
have to jump in and feel likeshe's got to point fingers about
know, point fingers about whodid what you know.
They will resolve it, they willtalk it out and she's like,
just in general, they're justfor each other, they're not at
each other's throat, they're notagainst each other.
So that's, that's a reallybeautiful part that I always
love to just get my mom'sperspective, because obviously
(43:55):
that they know that we parentdifferently than my parents
parented, and so it's neat forthem to see how the skills, the
tools, the knowledge we have hashelped us change the legacy in
our family this way.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
I bet that is a really rewarding thing for your
parents to see that oh, we knowwe might've messed up in some
areas and we wish we could goback and do it different.
But look at our kids doing itdifferent, breaking that cycle,
and then being able to see thefruits of their grandchildren
growing up, being able toresolve conflict between them
(44:28):
without having interference, youknow, from the parents or
engagement, and then also justfor your kids to be able to
repair relationships and ask forforgiveness instead of having
the referee Like what abeautiful gift for them.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
I think, a couple of things that come to mind.
People will be surprised at howwell they make eye contact and
engage in conversation, evenwith adults, kind of the way
that they feel like they canshow up and have meaningful
conversation with all kinds ofages and that they have
something to contribute.
You know so I wasn't even setout necessarily to do that, it's
(45:08):
just something that people willcomment on and you know, as a
parent you just kind of pauseand go oh yeah, that's kind of.
You know it's like what else isgoing to happen.
And then another one I thinkactually comes more from when my
children talk to other childrenand it's oh, you still do
school, but what do you mean?
You're not going to getgrounded if you don't?
And that my children stillchoose to do things without
(45:31):
something hovering over them asa threat, without that
motivation of fear.
And it's more that other kidswho aren't used to that are
surprised that my kids are stillchoosing these things on their
own and it's very, for some ofthem, very foreign because
that's not what they're used to,that's not how life is for them
(45:52):
.
And so that's alwaysinteresting feedback to hear the
surprise in other children thatyou know it's like.
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (46:00):
You're still doing this, even though you won't get
your phone taken away, orsomething you know that they're
choosing these things on theirown.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
I could see how your kids would be like this.
This is how you are.
You even, sarah, when you'retalking, kyle's looking at you,
he's making eye contact with theside of your head, actually,
right, but you guys areattentive, you're not distracted
, you are genuinely engaged inwhat's happening in the moment.
And our kids pick up on this.
(46:29):
They are constantly observingus and they are like little
mini-me's running around, right,and so I think also what I'm
hearing in your message today isthat you know it's okay to work
on ourselves.
Still, it's actually necessaryfor us to constantly be growing
(46:51):
as husband and wife and begrowing in our own responses to
things that come up in our livesand to be consistent with those
responses at the workplace, atchurch, at home, so that our
kids do see, oh, this ispossible.
If I'm not there yet, I cancontinue to watch how mom and
dad resolve issues between thetwo of them, how dad responds to
(47:13):
something that blew up with hispractice or whatever, and then
it's just this constant modelingfor them.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
It's a lifelong journey right.
It's a lifelong journey toalways be growing.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
I hope your listeners hear that too.
The problem with the otherthree, besides what we've
already said, is the other threeare not sustainable for a
lifetime.
The other three, like manyparents, will come to us too for
coaching as their kids areswitching from being a teenager
into adulthood and they don'thave the tools on how to relate
to their kid as an adult.
(47:47):
And that's the problem isbecause now, all of a sudden,
they don't have the power theydon't feel like they can
threaten anymore and now they'reat a loss because they still
think that's their job tocontrol the kid's behavior.
But, man, I tell them, if youcould start this so much sooner
if the listeners who have theyounger kids if you can start
that at an earlier age, thesooner we let go of that and
just begin to do it with them.
(48:09):
That is the lifelong journey.
We never have to become anisolated family who's disengaged
from each other, but we'reconstantly using conflict as a
way to grow closer, becausethat's what we want to do with
them the rest of their lives andthat's what we want to do with
our marriage.
And I hope your listeners hearthat it isn't us doing it
perfect, it's us knowing what todo when we mess up.
That will not only draw uscloser to our kids, but draw us
(48:32):
closer as a couple.
And so I look at my kids andall the challenges we've had in
raising them, as any parent does, and I love Sarah more because
of those challenges and sheloves me more because of those
challenges, because we havechosen to embrace that these are
all opportunities for us totransform into the husband and
wife and the mom and dad, theman and woman that we wanted God
(48:55):
to create us into.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
I love this.
So if you're listening, parents, I just want you to recognize
that Kyle and Sarah are sayinglike these, these behavior
outbursts, these issues thatyou're having with your kids,
they're not obstacles, they'reopportunities.
They're opportunities to growcloser in love to one another as
parents.
Sometimes you're holding yourwife's hand or your husband's
(49:18):
hand and you're going just comeon, girl, we got to be on the
same page here.
Come on, boy, do not like lovehim.
Take a deep breath.
This moment's going to pass,right, but it's not.
Doesn't have to be thebreakdown of the family because
you have somebody who'stantruming or you have kind of a
choleric type child that you'reraising right.
(49:39):
It can be an opportunity togrow in love towards one another
and with your child.
So tell us a little bit aboutkind of the ideal couple that
would enter into coaching foryou.
What might a parent or a couplebe going through that would
(50:00):
indicate, hey, maybe we coulduse some guidance from Kyle and
Sarah with their coaching?
Speaker 3 (50:05):
Well, it's exactly like you already started, jordan
.
It's a couple that passionatelywants to change the legacy that
they are saying listen, hey, weappreciate what our parents did
for us, but we think it can bedone better.
We just confused what thatlooks like because we have no
imagination of what that couldbe like, and so typically the
ideal that comes to us isthey're wanting to get on the
(50:26):
same page.
The husband and wife are bothcoming at it differently, which
they will, because they're justdifferent people and they're
like how can we create a unifiedvision for our family where
we're able to actually create afamily that's connected,
cohesive, healthy and we'velearned these skills?
Like by the time they leave ourhouse at 18, we have mastered
(50:48):
these things with them, so wecreate this healthy, close
relationship for the rest oftheir life.
So when those couples come to us, that is so fun, because it is
so fun to watch them grab theskills that we'll teach them and
then implement them.
And then it's cool to see thekids grab the skills that we'll
teach them and then implementthem.
And then it's cool to see thekids grab the skill too, and
then they start doing it withtheir siblings, and now the
(51:08):
siblings are getting along, sowe love to coach families that
are in that space.
They're like.
I just want to change thelegacy.
I don't want to have adisconnected, isolated family.
I don't want us going intoseparate rooms on our iPads or
TVs.
I want us coming together,building memories and a deep
hearted connection, and so welove when those families come to
us and if they want to do that,I'd love for them to reach out
to me at Kyle atartofraisinghumanscom, and I'd
(51:31):
love to set up a short call withthem and we'll talk about them
if they're a right fit for theprogram, and it's just great to
be able to walk them throughthat.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Awesome, so good.
That's Kyle atartofraisinghumanscom.
And listen, if you've beenhanging with us this entire time
and you are now sort of likeconsciously aware that, oh, I've
been doing this in a way thatisn't supportive and isn't
(52:00):
helpful to my spouse or my kids,this is good.
This is good news.
The veil has been torn.
You are becoming aware ofsomething that's not working.
But let me tell you this onepodcast episode is not enough.
Just the awareness is notenough to make change.
So I don't see Kyle and Sarahas a competition for families of
(52:22):
character and I'm going, guys,I'm not going to advertise their
services.
I'm saying, if this is you andyou want to change and you
aren't sure how to take thefirst steps and you need some
accountability to show up like aweek later and say here's what
we tried and here's how it went,I'm encouraging you to sign up,
to sign up for the freeconsultation, to find out if
(52:44):
this is a fit for you.
Reach out to Kyle and Sarah attheartofraisinghumanscom and
they will.
They will hook you up, theywill take care of you.
I'm sure of that.
Speaker 3 (52:55):
Yeah, we'll take it from point A to point B, so by
the time that they're done, theywill know and have the skills
they need to transform thefamily the way they want to.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
I love it.
I would love to have a couplewho hears this on our show go
through your coaching and thencome back on the show and talk
about that.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
Wouldn't that be cool to see the transformation?
Yes, yeah, that would be great.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
So good, so good.
So, guys, also tune into theart of raising humans podcast.
This is a great podcast.
It's free information again.
Free parenting, free coaching,that you can just put your
earbuds in, grab a cup of coffee, do the laundry, walk around
the block, take in some, somegood advice from Kyle and Sarah
over in Tulsa, oklahoma.
(53:38):
So, guys, thanks for joining usagain.
This has been such a pleasureand we will keep you in our
prayers that you can continue toprovide this amazing support
for so many families reallyacross the nation, because you
can do this virtually right.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
Yeah, well, and Jordan, we want to say thank you
for having us on, but alsothank you for all the work you
do as well.
I mean we need as many peopleas possible helping parents know
and feel encouraged andequipped on how to raise kids
that are able to change thisworld in a positive way.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
Yeah, Amen to that.
Folks, I'm going to catch youon another episode of the
Families of Character show realsoon.
In the meantime, stay hopeful.
There's always an opportunityfor change when you are an
intentional parent, thinkingabout what you're doing, what's
working, what's not working.
Hope is on the horizon andthere's always opportunities for
(54:32):
growth.
So tune in to another episodeof our show and also, please
share this with as many peoplein your network as you can.
Text it out, send it in anemail to people.
That will help us reach moreand more families across the
globe.
Thanks for tuning in.
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