September 23, 2025 • 56 mins
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What if the greatest threat to your child's wellbeing isn't lurking outside your home, but sitting in their pocket? Clinical psychologist Dr. Johann D'Souza delivers a wake-up call about what he calls "digital destruction" - the devastating impact of smartphones and social media on young people's mental health, development, and happiness.
We discuss:
• Rates of anxiety, depression, and suicidality have doubled or tripled among youth in wealthy, English-speaking countries since 2010
• The average age of pornography exposure is now 10 years old, with approximately 85% of young men struggling with addiction
• Parents vastly overestimate physical dangers (like kidnapping) while underestimating digital dangers to children
• Children raised with healthy technology boundaries ultimately appreciate their parents' firm guidance
If you found this episode helpful, please share it with other parents and check out Dr. D'Souza's speaking services at valuesfirstcollective.com/about or listen to his Virtuous Leaders podcast.
Follow Dr. D'Souza on X: @drjohanndsouza
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey parents, welcome back to our show.
If you feel like your family isat war with screens, or you
feel like devices are stealingyour kids' attention, their joy,
maybe even your connection withthem, you are not alone.
Today's guest says you know, itdoesn't have to be that way.
(00:21):
In fact, he believes that, withthe right approach, you can
turn the tide and save yourfamily from digital destruction.
Yeah, that's the word he usesis digital destruction.
Okay, so I want you to staytuned with us to the end.
I'm happy to be back here andto be in this position of being
(00:43):
able to interview our guest.
I was also on his show too, soDr Johan D'Souza is a clinical
psychologist with a very uniqueperspective.
He's not only grounded incutting edge mental health
research, but he's also deeplyrooted in something we value
here at Families of Character,which is traditional family
(01:06):
values.
Now, dr D'Souza holds both amaster's and a PhD in clinical
psychology from the Universityof Houston and a bachelor's in
theology from the good oldUniversity of Dallas, and his
private practice, called ValuesFirst Therapy, really focuses on
(01:27):
helping high achieving youngpeople break free from anxiety
and OCD.
He's published over 20peer-reviewed articles and is a
research affiliate withHarvard's Human Flourishing
Program.
As if that weren't enough, heis also, like I said, the host
of the Virtuous Leaders podcast,where he highlights people who
(01:50):
embody both moral andprofessional excellence and,
like I said, I've been superblessed to have been a guest on
his show.
So Dr DeSouza joins us today totalk about what he calls
digital destruction somethinghe's been speaking on for seven
years and, more importantly, howwe can protect our families
(02:13):
from it.
So welcome to the show, drD'Souza.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Thanks, jordan, it's great to be here and thanks for
joining my show and thank youfor the good work that you do,
because you are one of thepeople I've seen who's helped
young couples the most, so weneed that.
So keep up the good work there.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
It was a blessing to be on yourshow and just to talk about
what we do at Families ofCharacter and how we desire to
help couples who are raisingkids, in the busyness of family
life, to really prioritizerelationships, with their faith
being the foundation and thentheir marriage being a high
(02:50):
priority and then therelationship with their kids.
So it was just a blessing to beable to speak on your show
about that and honored that youwould consider me a virtuous
leader.
I love that.
It's so great.
Let's jump right in and talkabout this idea of digital
destruction.
You are out there speaking andthis is a topic that you've done
(03:11):
a lot of research on.
So what do you mean when youtalk about digital destruction?
That's hurting our kids.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, so I'm coming at this from two angles because,
as you said, I have theprofessional background I'm a
private practice specialist inanxiety and distraction so I see
it from that angle.
But then I also see it becauseI've invested many hours over
the last 15 years in mentoringyoung men.
So I've seen the families, I'veseen them grow from being
(03:42):
people I've seen in third gradeand now they're graduating
college, getting married andseeing the impact of technology
on them.
I believe that this is thesingle most important issue that
young people face, and it's notjust in my anecdotal experience
, because then we look worldwideat this point, as if you would
(04:04):
need research to support this,but we do have research
supporting the destruction thatyoung people are facing.
So I'm going to give you oneexample.
This is again worldwide researchon happiness levels.
So historically we've we'veseen that the youngest people
have had the highest degrees oflife satisfaction.
People in the middle of theirhave had the highest degrees of
life satisfaction.
(04:25):
People in the middle of theirlife have the lowest degrees of
life satisfaction.
They're stressed out, they'retaking care of their kids,
they're also taking care oftheir parents, they have a busy
job.
And then people in the lastthird of their life also have a
high level of life satisfaction.
So historically, the happinesscurve has been like a U-shaped
curve, with the youngest and theoldest being the same at the
(04:47):
highest level.
Now, in recent years, around2010, this curve changed.
One group went from being themost happy to being the least
happy, and that's the youngestgroup the youngest group.
Now the curve is not a Uanymore, it's a straight line,
with the youngest groupreporting the lowest levels of
(05:09):
happiness.
And now what we've seen alsodigging even further down into
the research, is skyrocketingrates of anxiety, depression,
suicidality in the youngest agegroup, starting at 2010.
So there's a clear inflectionpoint.
If you look at the graphsthere's it's kind of like slowly
(05:30):
going up.
Then at 2010, they call it likethe hockey stick graph because
it's like the handle of a hockeystick just shoots way up.
We're talking about doubling ortripling rates of anxiety,
depression and suicidality allaround the world, primarily in
secular, english-speaking,wealthy countries such as yes,
(05:55):
us, canada, uk, australia, newZealand, around the world.
But the funny thing about it isit's specifically for young
people, because we can compareit to other age groups who have
been given the same surveys andtheir levels don't change.
It's the youngest people.
What happened in 2010?
So that's the questionpopularized and the first social
(06:22):
media for the smartphone wasreleased, which is Instagram,
which is basically a gatewaydrug into pornography.
If you've ever been onInstagram, there are
advertisements for pornographyon it and if you scroll, you're
going to hit it.
So that's why this is a mentalhealth crisis and the biggest
(06:43):
challenge facing young peopletoday.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
So that's why this is a mental health crisis and the
biggest challenge facing youngpeople today.
Wow, that just gave me theshivers to think that, you know,
young children years agoreported these high levels of
happiness and then, all of asudden, 15 years ago, they are,
you know, depressed and anxiousand reporting some of the lowest
levels of happiness because ofthis technology, because of this
invention and this pouring intosocial media and the digital
(07:09):
addiction that started back then.
Like that's heartbreaking and itwas really helpful for you to
talk about the U shape.
And then, all of a sudden, thishockey stick with the rates of
anxiety and mental health issues, you know, shooting up.
It's like for it to go from andyou imagine like, yeah, the
(07:30):
young children, they have thisnatural innocence and they're
playing and they know they'regood and they know that the
world is good and thatinherently people are, you know,
want good and beautiful andtrue things.
And then for that to be crushedthrough the invention of this
(07:50):
device that we have now becomeaccustomed to using all the time
and handing to our kids whenwe're strolling through the
grocery store so they won't makea noise or they won't bother us
, you know, when we're on thephone or whatever, that this has
taken that innocence away fromthem and sort of hooked them and
(08:11):
trapped them.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right and we see the.
So the consequences are notjust the anxiety and depression,
suicidality, but it's alsobecause you have to think about
well what leads to those things.
What's the mediating factors?
And a huge one here is lack ofsleep.
So sleep is so important forphysical and mental health.
(08:33):
It's probably the single mostimportant factor for physical
and mental health.
It's more important than food.
You can survive longer withoutfood than you can without sleep.
There's on record a gentleman,angus, in the UK, who lived more
than a year without eating food.
Believe it or not, he losthundreds of pounds, but you
(08:54):
can't live I think the record ismaybe like about 10 days, 12
days, something like that,without sleep.
So the young people, whenthey're at the time in their
lives when they need the mostsleep, they're sleep because if
the phone is in the room they'renot sleeping.
And then you have the socialdeficits, you have the
distraction, you have theaddiction, and we can get into
(09:15):
each of those into more detail.
But these are some of theconsequences and mediating
factors that lead to the anxiety, depression and ultimately
suicide.
Mediating factors that lead tothe anxiety depression and
ultimately suicide.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Sleep you mentioned that as just one of the primary
factors in flourishing or dying.
Basically right, I mean youcan't go without it.
I used to work in a psychiatrichospital and that would be one
of the primary reasons peoplewould be admitted is because
they had gone without sleep forthree or four or five days.
They're up either usingsubstances or gaming for days on
(09:49):
end and they become psychotic.
They lose all sense of realityand they're not in touch and in
tune with what's going on aroundthem.
And that same thing can behappening in your own child's
bedroom.
Right, they sneak their phonein there, they've got their
tablet.
You don't know because you'renot keeping track of.
(10:09):
You know where the devices arestored or docked at night, and
all of a sudden you startnoticing this.
You know kid that looks likethey have ADHD, that can't pay
attention to things and you knowis irritable and agitated, not
performing well at school, right.
And so those things, I think,catch our attention, that the
(10:32):
teachers say they'redistractible all the time.
Maybe they need medication orit just seemed grumpy or
whatever.
But it's important, like yousaid, to drill down and instead
of sort of slapping a band-aidon it, like you said, to drill
down and instead of sort ofslapping a bandaid on it where
it's like, oh yeah, let's justkind of give them a stimulant or
you know, take them to atherapist and, just, you know,
(10:57):
check out for an hour every weekwhile they do their thing with
their therapist and hope thatthat works.
I hear you kind of sayingwithout saying, like what about
technology?
Just taking kind of an audit oftechnology in your own home and
in bedrooms and places whereit's important that your kids
are getting quality sleep right.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean.
So you talked about ADHD.
Well, adhd is two things it'sdistraction and or hyperactivity
.
So both of those things are aresult of the lack of
development of the prefrontalcortex, which is responsible for
so-called executive function,inhibitive control, being able
(11:30):
to control impulses, for example.
So teenagers are at the stagewhere their prefrontal cortex is
not developed yet.
That doesn't finish developinguntil the mid-20s, and so, at
the time when they are the mostimpulsive and most distractible,
they're given a device that'sdesigned to take advantage and
(11:51):
increase impulsivity anddistractibility.
So, as you probably know, jordan, these apps, these devices, are
purposely gamified to beaddictive.
So, for example, infinitescroll it just goes on forever,
it doesn't stop, it's constantlychanging, the colors are
constantly changing, thepictures, the images are
(12:13):
changing, the sounds arechanging, and they're on.
These apps are on what's calleda variable reward schedule,
which has been shown to be themost addictive type of way of
rewarding people.
It's how slot machines work.
So the way slot machines workis they give you a reward you
get.
If you put in a dollar, you'regoing to get about 80 cents back
(12:36):
over time.
If you put in $100, you needabout $80 back over time, but
the when you get that money backis not predictable over time.
But the when you get that moneyback is not predictable.
It's random, which keeps ushooked, because each pull could
be the one where we get thejackpot, where we get the money,
and that's how.
That's how the apps aredesigned to that it gives us a
(12:56):
reward.
In this case, the reward isbasically other people viewing
our content, and so the appcontrols how many people it
shows the content to andtherefore how many people view
and like and subscribe andinteract with our content.
But it's on a variable reward,so we never know when we're
(13:17):
going to get that affirmation,that hit, and it could be the
next time, it could be the nexttime.
And then you have these pushnotifications, which how
difficult is it to resist notclicking when you see that red
square with the number threenotifications on?
And the thing is, you and I areprobably addicted.
(13:39):
I mean, if we have smartphones,if we have social media, we're
probably addicted.
They're designed to beaddictive.
If adults are addicted to it,which they almost certainly are
I personally believe that it'spractically impossible to have a
smartphone and not be addictedto it then how much more are the
kids going to be addicted to it.
And now the device is formingtheir brains because, keep in
(14:02):
mind, their brains are moreactively developing than ours
are.
Their brains are still beingpruned, so the neuronal pruning,
meaning that what they do getsmore hardwired, what they don't
do dies away.
So these devices are activelyshaping the formation of their
brains.
Jordan.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
What they don't do dies away.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So the neuronal pruning yeah, I don't know if
you're aware of it.
This is fascinating.
So from the ages of zero tothree years old, there's
something called neurogenesis orsynaptogenesis, in which
there's connections being formedbetween the neurons at a rate
of hundreds of connections persecond.
It's pretty, it's incrediblereally.
There's so many connections Now.
(14:45):
So that's from the age of zeroto three.
So that's why little kids havethe ability to learn every human
language that exists.
Any baby can learn that withouteven putting in the effort,
they just absorb it right Now.
That's called a critical period.
Now, from the age of threeonwards, the brain is no longer
(15:06):
focusing on synaptogenesis, oncreating connections.
It's now focusing on pruningthe connections.
It's like pruning a tree.
We're going to take away thethings that are not being used
in order to increase theefficiency of the pathways that
are being used.
So now we're no longer as ableto learn a new language, but the
(15:31):
things that we have learned.
We can do it more easily andmore quickly and more
automatically.
Think about how easy it is forus to walk, compared to a baby
who has to think so deliberatelyabout every single step.
You know what that's like, butwhat that means is because of
this neuronal pruning.
It's literally use it or loseit.
(15:51):
So what they are, the youngpeople have been practicing.
If they're practicing sportshobbies, drawing, socializing,
talking with other people, doingchores around the house,
studying, they're going to getbetter and better and better at
those things.
It's going to become moreautomatic, the things.
Whereas if they're practicingeight hours of entertainment,
(16:12):
screen time a day, which someyoung people report, literally a
full time job of entertainment,40 hours a week, eight hours a
day so then that that's whatthey're going to get better at,
and the other things thatthey're not practicing they're
going to.
They're losing the ability topractice it, which is why young
people I don't know if you'venoticed, as I have in my
(16:34):
mentoring, that you meet peoplewho they don't know how to
socialize.
They don't know how to look youin the eyes.
They don't know how to shakeyour hand.
I don't know where thesepeople's fathers are.
They don't know how to shaketheir hand, shake a man's hand.
They don't know how to initiatea conversation.
What they know how to do islook at their feet and take out
their phone and avoid eyecontact.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
That really hits, because I'm thinking too of that
critical time period with youngchildren and learning how to
read, and to read good books andgood literature, right, and how
that skill dies off.
If all you're doing is beingentertained by YouTube shorts
and games, right, that ping andding and the colors all go off
(17:16):
and on and the next time youcould be the winner of this game
or you could beat Joey, who'sactually a bot but you think
he's real, you know and like.
If they're doing that and theirbrain is craving more of that,
that's destroying these otherparts of them, like the desire
to read and the the ability toread and comprehend things and
(17:40):
to be able to speak aboutsomething they've read or to
have a Socratic dialogue withanother person about that in the
flesh right.
So that just gives me theshivers Again.
It's like we're trading ourhumanity for this addictive
device.
That's just destroying us.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
That's exactly it.
I love the way you phrase that,jordan.
We're trading our humanity forit.
So the way that young peopledescribe their experience these
days is they feel hollow andvacant, like a robot without an
operating system.
They're dead on the insidetheir body's without a soul.
(18:19):
They're empty, vacuous.
There is no interior life,there is no spiritual life, and
that's what happens when weexperience addiction.
So with addiction, our brain isnow wired to feed the addiction
.
That is the highest priority.
The resources of the brain arewired to satisfy that and
(18:41):
everything else is in a secondplace, and what's basically
ultimately sacrificed on thedeepest level is intimate
relationships.
So people no longer have theseintimate relationships.
They're replacing theirrelationships with, with virtual
interactions.
And the biggest example of this,the single most destructive
(19:03):
force for young men todaypornography addiction.
It is so rampant.
Pornography addiction is sorampant.
If a young man has a smartphone, he's seen pornography on it.
The average age of exposure is10 years old.
And the amount of content thatpeople are consuming.
People don't realize thatpornography companies make more
(19:25):
than Netflix, for example.
There's a single pornographycompany that makes more than
Netflix and some other majorcompanies combined.
The fact is that you may thinkthat your child is innocent and
good, and then you give them aphone.
Once they have that phone, theywere innocent, but they're not
anymore.
I recently gave a talk inanother city to a group of young
(19:47):
men and I asked them hey, howmany of your friends do you
think are addicted topornography?
And I said, hey, is it morethan 50 or less than 50%?
More than 50.
Is it more than 60?
More than 60.
Is it more than 70?
More than 70.
Is it more than 80?
More than 80.
Is it more than 70?
More than 70?
Is it more than 80?
More than 80?
Is it more than 90?
(20:08):
And that's when we settled at85 they said 85.
I actually believe that it'sprobably higher.
These were all really good kids, so probably there's their
friends are, are definitelybetter than average.
But from, yeah, from what I'veseen and what I've when I've
talked to in mentoring sessions,basically people say that like,
unless you're, unless you'relike an exceptional one in a
(20:30):
million kid who I have met andpersonally worked with and
they're amazing, then yeah,you're struggling with
pornography.
It doesn't matter how good yourparents are, it doesn't matter
how much Catholic doctrine youknow, it doesn't matter that.
You know it's wrong.
That's the problem.
It's an addiction.
They know it's wrong.
That's not the problem.
That's trying to break it.
(20:50):
They're trying to stop it.
They can't.
It's an addiction and it'sgoing to last years and decades
and it's going to affect theirmarriages.
It's going to affect the waythey look at women for the rest
of their life.
It's going to affect theirhappiness.
It's going to affect theirability to concentrate at their
job and maybe even not get firedbecause of the content that
they're viewing.
(21:10):
So this is a serious, seriousproblem that it's very hard to
overestimate how big of aproblem this is.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
What are you seeing in your mentoring, when you do
counseling with teens and youngadults who have high anxiety,
addictions to devices andpornography and social media and
that sort of thing, the onesthat?
Do you see many clients foranxiety that don't have
smartphones?
They have like a light phone orsome other social media based
(21:41):
or smartphone type of device.
I guess.
Do you see clients that havehigh anxiety that don't have
that?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
That's a great question.
So I mentioned these, this likekind of one in a million
student, who's exceptional,who's very mature I think, more
mature than I am, in some ways,definitely more mature than I
was when I was their age and thehighest performing, most
impressive young man I've workedwith, even in a volunteer
mentoring context.
(22:08):
They don't have smartphones,they don't even have phones.
So I'm involved in a leadershipprogram where I help some of
the young men to help theirfriends.
So so this is like a very, veryselect small group of people
who I teach leadership tovirtuous leadership, and at one
point I was trying to gettogether like a group
(22:29):
communication, like to organizean event, like let me try to put
that, see if I can throw themon a group chat here, and what I
realized is wait a second, noneof these people have phones.
I can't contact any of thesepeople because they don't have
phones.
The ones who are the most mature, the ones who are the leaders
is, not only do they not havesmartphones, they don't even
have phones.
And those are the ones thathave a sense of self-confidence
(22:53):
and independence and not needingto be approved of and liked by
the group.
In fact, other people are theones who are seeking their
approval.
So anxious moms worry aboutwell, will my son be accepted,
will my daughter be accepted ifshe doesn't have social media?
Yeah, actually, she's gonna bea lot more confident if she
(23:15):
doesn't have social media,because we know now that there's
a bi directional relationshipbetween social media use and
loneliness.
This was published in theassociation of psychological
science, so that means that's,as you would expect, the more
lonely someone is, the moresocial media they they use, but
also the more social media theyuse, the more lonely they feel.
(23:38):
So it's a classic vicious cyclethat feeds on itself.
Social media, smartphone, it'snot giving your child confidence
, it's weakening them, it'smaking them dependent.
It's making them dependent onpeer pressure and social
expectations and it's basicallyreplacing your parenting with a
group of teenagers with noaccountability, going to the
(24:02):
lowest common denominator andbeing manipulated by
multi-billion dollar companieswho are trying to sell them
products and, in some cases,intentionally destroy their
souls, frankly, and they'redoing a pretty good job they are
doing a pretty good job.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
The statistics show that with, with the rates of
suicide and, like you said,these children, these young
teenagers, young adults walkingaround like a shell, a robot, no
soul, no purpose, right, itjust the likes and the shares
and the hearts, and it's notenough.
(24:41):
It's not enough to keep themgoing.
Wow, okay, so I am.
I've got a lot of thoughtsgoing on right now and one of
them is our son turned 13 inFebruary and he really wanted a
phone.
And we said you know what?
We think that the next bestthing for you might be a bank
account.
Well, that has nothing to dowith communication and me like
(25:02):
talking to my friends and beingable to see them on video chat
and everything we said.
We know, we know, we understandthat, but there's a high price
that comes with theresponsibility of a phone and
basically a computer in yourpocket.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
And we know that, that's just not.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
We wouldn't leave the front door to our house open at
night and allow anyone to justwalk in and do whatever they
wanted and expose themselves inwhatever way they felt that they
they desired, you know.
And so we're not going to giveyou something in your pocket
where you could open it up andanybody could expose you to
anything they wanted not onlyone person, but just millions of
people and it will be safer foryou to leave your front door
(25:41):
open at night than to do this ona smartphone?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Totally, I firmly believe that, and looking at the
statistical records of violentcrime in the US backs that up.
Actually, so a child would haveto.
If you wanted your child to bekidnapped, you'd have to live
until they were 700,000 yearsold.
That's how unlikely it is.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Say more about that, because I listened to one of the
podcast episodes that you didwith a guest who was talking
about that.
Like parents fear of lettingtheir kids out of the house to
go to the neighborhood parkacross the street because
they're telling themselves, well, they could get kidnapped.
What are the chances, what arethe likelihood of that, versus
all this destruction that'shappening online?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Exactly so.
There's a vast overestimationof physical danger and a vast
underestimation of digitaldanger.
So, again, going back to kidnap, and this is like.
I've actually looked at thestatistics and you don't have to
take my word for it, you canGoogle it yourself and put
together the graphs.
So it's more likely for a childto be born as a conjoined twin
than it is to be kidnapped.
(26:39):
It's more likely for a child tobe struck by lightning than it
is to be kidnapped, whereas whenyou so in Childhood 2.0, which
is a great documentary on thedangers of toxic screen use, so
they did an experiment wherethey created a profile for a
14-year-old girl 12-year-oldgirl, something like that and
(27:02):
within five minutes they had anadult predator exposing himself
to this child, to this fictionalchild that they had created.
So these digital dangers are,they are so real.
I was talking to anotherteenager and he said and again,
one of these guys who doesn'thave a phone?
And he said that, yeah, one ofthese guys who doesn't have a
(27:22):
phone?
And he said that, yeah, it'sjust, it's just normal for young
people to just send nude photosof themselves.
That's, that's normal.
That's like considered now thefirst step of even not even
dating, but of pre-dating andand that's so dark, that doesn't
, that doesn't go away.
They just have such a, theyjust have such a distorted sense
of reality.
You know that there's their,there's the evidence for the
(27:44):
prefrontal cortex not not beingdeveloped.
So you know, and I, you know, I,I sometimes wonder if this
underestimation of physicalsorry, the overestimation of
physical danger is ultimatelydue to contraception, that
because of contraception,parents are not having as many
kids.
So when you have eight kids,you're not worried about.
(28:05):
Hey, I need to track my kid atall times, using my phone and
their phone to track theirphysical location, which has
never been done in the historyof humanity until a few years
ago, whereas when you only haveone or two kids, you don't have
anything else to do and youdon't have any other older kids
to help you in the task.
So you see your job as justtracking where your child is all
(28:28):
the time, and to the detrimentof the child.
The children are no longer ableto experience independence and
growth and real learning fromthe real world, and that's what
they need and that's why I saythat I think one of the biggest
reasons why we're facing thisdigital destruction is parental
(28:50):
anxiety.
It's actually I don't thinkit's ignorance.
It's parental anxiety that theparents aren't doing it for
their kid, they're doing it forthemselves.
They want to feel morecomfortable, they want to worry
less, they want to think thatthey're being good parents and
inadvertently, they're actuallyaccomplishing the opposite.
(29:10):
They're harming their kids morethan just giving them freedom
and independence would.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Wow, parental anxiety ?
Yes, and it's so refreshing totalk to you, johan, because I'll
just say that we need to behearing more from people like
you, who have done the research,you know the dangers, you have
hundreds and thousands of casestudies to back up what you're
encouraging us to do, which isto say no to digital devices
(29:37):
when everyone else is saying yes, and I'm just like cheering and
clapping over here.
I'm like yes yes, I have a 13and a half year old who hasn't
looked at a computer all summer.
Not a single computer, a tablet, a phone.
We've watched one hour of amusic TV program at night, maybe
(29:59):
three or four times per week assome fun little entertainment.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
God bless you.
I just can't give enough praiseand support to what you're
doing with your family.
I just give you all theencouragement in the world
You're doing it the right way.
Your child is going to be so,so grateful.
Your child is going to love youfor it and he's going to raise
his children, your grandchildren, just like you raised him.
And guess what?
These parents who are spoilingother kids and giving them,
(30:27):
giving into all their demands,not thinking of what's best for
the kid, but caving to their ownpersonal anxiety.
I hate to say this, but theirchildren are going to hate them
for it.
They're going to hate the factthat they no longer, they don't
have self discipline and they'regoing to be adults acting like
children, and they're going toblame it on their parents, as
they should, frankly.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yes, and you've heard the saying as a parent, you're
only as happy as your mostunhappy child.
Sometimes, if that's what ittakes to motivate you to make
some of these decisions thinkingabout yourself in retirement or
, you know, towards the end ofyour life, like wanting to be
(31:08):
happy and to be, you know, in aplace where you're enjoying life
then you got to make some harddecisions today.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
You got to be a freaking parent.
You have to be an adult.
This is something that so Italk about parental anxiety.
The other element here is justweak men.
Weak men like just grow up andbe an adult, do what's best for
your child, do what's best foryour family.
So why are you letting yourchild run the house?
(31:37):
That's literally.
What's happening is thesehouseholds are being run by the
emotions of a teenage girl.
That's literally, withoutexaggeration.
What's happening is thesehouseholds are being run by the
emotions of a teenage girl.
That's literally, withoutexaggeration, what's happening.
Because the emotions of thegirl control the girl's actions
and that controls usually it'softentimes the mom's actions.
And then the dad just cavesinto it.
And I'm saying, because I seethis in my therapy practice,
(32:00):
where I'm sitting with mom, dadand child and I'm laying it out
in a much, much more gentle,empathetic way than I'm doing it
now when I'm on your show, Ifeel free to just kind of
actually speak my mind.
I'm so glad.
So thank you.
So I lay out the case in a veryempathetic way and what happens
is invariably the mom has thisconcerned, look on her face and
(32:23):
the dad is nodding along likeyes, yes, I told you.
I told you we shouldn't havegot into video games.
And I'm thinking like dude,what's I mean come?
Speaker 1 (32:31):
on man Like.
You're the man of the house,you're the head of the family.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
You knew this was wrong and you didn't stand up
for it.
Like, what is your role rightnow as a human being if you're
not doing that?
So I mean, let's man up.
God has given you thisauthority as parents.
Your children have been trustedto you, not to the school, not
to the government, not to Apple,not to Instagram.
(32:57):
Your children have beenentrusted to you.
You have the rightful authority.
I like to tell parents trustyour judgment, trust your
parental instinct.
If society is doing things oneway, then probably you just do
the opposite and you're going toend up in a much better place.
So I want to give that messageof encouragement.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Thank you.
I love that.
I saw your animation and youcome to life when you were
talking about like men, let's goman up, make the decision.
And over here, as a wife I'mthinking ladies, step aside.
(33:36):
Allow your husband to lead,even if it's going to be hard,
or your daughter's going to havea meltdown because dad said
you're not leaving in that skirt.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
You're going to go put some shorts on right Ladies,
let them lead right.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
So often we sideline our spouse or stick them in the
trunk and go.
Just trust me, all the girlsare dressing like this, so it's
not a big deal.
People are used to this.
No, people are not used to this.
Nobody's ever going to be usedto the short skirt.
Everybody looks.
It's a total distraction.
It causes men to think in acertain way about your daughter
(34:06):
and about other things that areimpure and unhealthy for you.
So it's okay to be the one thatsays let's go through your
dresser drawers, try this stuffon.
If it doesn't hit around theknee, then let's just.
Let's donate it to somebodythat's younger than you are
Right and do the hard thing.
You are swimming upstream folksIf you're listening to this and
going like, oh, these twothey're.
(34:28):
They're telling us to do things.
No one in our neighborhood isdoing.
Yes, that's right, you'rehearing correctly.
They're telling you to goagainst the culture because the
culture is in a bad way.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
A majority of people are not living holy lives where
they understand the value ofthemselves as a human being, and
it's always been like that Idon't know if your audience has
ever just read through thehistorical books of sacred
scripture, it's fascinating,it's surprisingly dark, and what
it shows is that it's alwaysbeen this way.
(35:02):
It's always been a small groupof God's faithful people being
persecuted by an evil empirewith immense resources, and
whether it's the Assyrians orthe Babylonians or the Romans or
the Greeks or the US empire orthe British empire, it's
literally always been like thatand it will always be like that
(35:23):
until the end of time.
So yeah, if you're going to bea Christian, that means being
countercultural.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yes, thank you for that reminder, because you're so
right.
And there's that passage inscripture that talks about the
narrow gate, right, like that'swhat we're going for people, the
narrow gate, we're not goingfor the wide, open road that
everybody's wandering around on.
That's like I don't know.
Maybe it's this, maybe it'sthat.
No, there are a select fewcritical, few things that we're
(35:50):
called to as Christians.
Right, and it's a beautiful lifewhen you say no to the things
that don't move you towardsheaven and don't move you closer
to your family and your spouse.
It really is.
Don't move you towards heavenand don't move you closer to
your family and your spouse.
It really is.
And I guess, if you're not, ifyou feel like you're living sort
of this cultural lifestylewhere your kids already have
(36:13):
phones or tablets, you're noteven sure how many devices are
running around your household,it's okay to just kind of push
pause on everything and startthere.
Start by collecting thesedevices right and having a
conversation with your spouse ora trusted friend and saying,
(36:34):
like we have a problem here.
We have a problem.
We've become highly aware ofthis after listening to the show
or just a multitude ofdifferent messages that have
come at us, and we want to dosomething different.
Will you help us?
Will you help us to get rid ofsome of these?
Put protective software on thisstuff, to say no to this
(36:58):
digital destruction, because youonly get one shot at parenting.
You know we don't get anydo-overs and these are humans.
We're raising adults that wewant to be able to, you know,
live out their vocation and befull of joy and to really
radiate the love of God topeople and they're unable to do
(37:21):
that if they have been addictedand anxious and had this sort of
empty childhood because it'sbeen fed with digital devices,
right?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
You said it, jordan.
That's absolutely right, andparents often think that this is
a complicated issue.
This is a difficult issue.
This is a complex issue.
How many different devices andapps and there's a different,
something different coming outevery day and these filters, and
how do I track this or that?
Look, this is not a complicatedissue.
(37:51):
This is a simple issue.
It's very simple.
Never give your kid asmartphone.
It's that simple.
Never give your kid asmartphone.
That's all you have to do.
And parents just make it harderon themselves by setting up
these expectations of oh youknow, maybe if you're a little
(38:11):
bit more mature, maybe whenyou're a little bit older, maybe
when you're 16, maybe whenyou're this, maybe when you're
that, because they don't haveany personal conviction, they
don't understand what they'redoing.
They're flying by the seat oftheir pants, which I get.
But make it easy on yourself.
Never give your kid asmartphone.
That's the simplest decisionthat will have the biggest
positive impact on your life andthe life of your child.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Dr DeSuta, you gave it to us just simply.
Again, if this is hard for youto hear, you want to push, stop
and go.
This is craziness, that's okay,that's all right.
But some of us are tuning inand going.
I'm willing to make thesechoices, even if it's against
the grain, because I know that,like you said, I have been
entrusted to raise thesechildren and this is a gift that
(38:57):
I've been given and I've got tosteward it well, you know.
So you just convinced me.
I had earlier on the show Ican't remember the episode
number, but I interviewed JoeHollier and he is a co-founder
of the Light.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Phone, oh cool.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
And this phone has no social media.
It has no internet browser.
It is talking, is texting.
It has the ability to takephotos.
I'm not sure you can even sendthe photo to anyone through a
text and navigation a way to getyou around if you needed to.
But they've been testing thisin schools and there have been
schools that have committed toonly allowing students to have
(39:34):
light phones and they've donedifferent research with these
schools and kids hate them atfirst, like this is ridiculous.
We miss our smartphone orwhatever.
And then they feel free, theyfeel the sense of freedom to
engage their friends in personand to enjoy.
All of a sudden they have allthis time back that they used to
(39:57):
not even realize that they werespending scrolling and checking
, you know, every app and everynotification all the time, and
now they, like after a detoxperiod, they've come alive and
they've they experience more joy.
Their happiness meter is likegoing off the charts.
So there's also otheralternatives.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
so I think that's important to say is that you
know you can live without aphone and there's an assumption
now that, okay, what kind ofphone do I need to get my kid?
So the assumption is my kid hasto have a phone.
That's an assumption.
Your child does not have tohave a phone.
This is a recent phenomenon.
This is out of all of humanhistory.
This is 15 years old, right?
(40:55):
Your child does not even need aphone at all and probably their
lives will be much betterwithout it.
Because you got these toxicgroup texts and any teenager on
a group text.
It goes to the lowest commondenominator.
It's horrible.
Just if you don't believe me,just check out your child's
group text sending photos.
(41:16):
Yeah, that's, that's a recipefor a disaster.
So it's not just about thesocial media and the video games
, but even just the texting andjust giving them a chance to be
a child, to not have to worryabout responding right away, to
not have to worry aboutconstantly checking this thing.
I mean you and I as adults, I'msure we feel I know I often do
(41:38):
like man.
Wouldn't it be great if we justkind of like, were able to
frolic in the woods and not haveto check technology at all.
And because of our obligationsmaybe that's not possible for us
, but it is possible for yourchild.
Your child does not have to beconnected.
And what a gift, that gift ofchildhood, which they only have
once in their life and you cangive that to them now and they
(42:02):
can have true friendships andtrue relationships and true
adventure.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Thank you.
Thank you for instilling thathope and reminding us that it's
possible and that you know this,because you're working with
these people and these familiesall the time in your private
practice.
So this isn't made up.
This is truly happening.
I will say, too, from ourstandpoint.
We started our oldest son at ahigh school and within two weeks
(42:30):
of him being on the footballteam, he said well, mom, I got
to have Snapchat.
And we said oh no, we're neverhaving Snapchat.
Well, I have to because that'show I have to communicate with
the team.
That's what the coaches said noproblem, this is like you're
going to have to do the hardthing and ask them for their
phone number.
Oh, no, no, no, I can't do that.
There's so much anxiety aroundthis.
Month after month.
(42:51):
In that first semester, thingsjust started unraveling and we
knew this was not going to be agood fit and we transferred him
to a different school.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Guess what Good for you.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
No technology at the school?
Okay, great, you just took thatoff the table.
That's not even an issue he hasto worry about.
You did the right thing.
We've also done homeschooling,man.
There's just, there is options.
If you're thinking that doesn'twork for me.
Jordan must have this wealththat she can afford these
resources, but we can't, no,stop telling yourself that right
(43:21):
, I mean, we've made sacrificesin our lives as parents in order
to do the hard thing for ourkids and we have challenged each
other, as husband and wife, tostep up and take a stand, even
when it's hard and even whenyour kids are crying on the step
because another friend gotanother phone and they're the
(43:42):
last one of the entire group.
Right that we say?
I know this is really hard.
I can only imagine everybodyhaving all these things and you
feeling left out.
You know, just aligning withthem, just affirming them and
and then showing them,introducing them into things
that are actually more beautifuland more high quality for them.
(44:05):
Like I took my son to thecoffee shop because I had a Zoom
interview yesterday and guesswhat?
I put in his hand A book offthe shelf called Huckleberry
Finn.
I read it from start to finishin two hours and was like Mom.
This is awesome.
Whoa, not necessarily a reader,but because I took a little
(44:26):
extra time and put something inhis hand that I knew a 13 year
old boy would be interested inhe ate it up.
I woke up this morning Johan,no kidding, my, my kids were up
and I said they said, shh, we'redoing something.
I said, what, what are youdoing?
And they each held up a bookthat the boxcar children books
(44:49):
in their hands and they weredoing a read aloud and they're
like we've already read 62 pages.
It's only 930.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I'm like people who know me, Johan in.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Denver are like I would have never guessed, jordan
.
Like you have blonde hair andyou get your nails done and you
like you look like you kind offit in in culture and I'm like I
do, because I'm living in theworld, but we're also making
decisions in our home that aredifferent.
And it's OK, you can do thistoo, right, right?
Speaker 2 (45:19):
I just want to give a witness to you, jordan.
I knew you were good and a goodparent, but I didn't know how
good a parent you were untilthis conversation, and God bless
you for what you're doing.
You're doing it exactly theright way.
What a gift you're giving toyour children and they're going
to be truly happy and youalready have a happy family and
(45:40):
that's the highest good, humangood on earth.
It's heaven on earth, rightthere.
So your children are getting alittle foretaste of heaven, and
that is a witness to the rest ofsociety.
What's going to convert?
We need another Pentecost, weneed a renewal, especially in
Denver.
And what's going to convertthose people?
It's not bashing them upsidethe head with the Bible as much
(46:01):
as we feel like you probablydon't feel like doing that, but
maybe some other people do.
And what's going to convertthem is not just the
intellectual argument.
What's going to convert them isthe heart of seeing a beautiful
, loving, happy family, and thenthey'll realize I want it.
I don't know what it is, but Iwant this.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Thank you.
Thank you for just sharing thatwith me.
I'm going to absorb that and itgives me fuel to keep doing
what's right.
Ultimately, at the end of thislife, I am the one that has to
do an accounting before God ofthe decisions that I've made,
and so that also my belief inthat, you know, helps fuel the
(46:39):
decisions that I make, andsometimes I have to tell my kids
that, listen, I got to accountfor all this before our Lord.
Can you imagine sitting beforethe?
Speaker 2 (46:48):
judgment seat and saying hey, but everyone else
was doing it.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, that does not go well, that does not end well
it's not gonna cut it.
Yes, he says what about me?
I gave you the instructions, Igave you a very clear idea of
how to live your life and I gaveyou free will to choose other
things or to choose me, and itmay seem hard to make these
(47:15):
choices that we've talked abouttoday, and I get it.
I still struggle and we aregoing to continue to struggle
with these things.
We do not have it perfect downhere in Denver.
Team Langdon, we're bouncing offthe wall sometimes, and we're
constantly working to get better, but it is worth it.
It may be the hardest thing youhave to do, but it is the most
(47:38):
worth it thing to just keep youreyes focused on the critical
few things that are going toelevate your marriage, help your
family feel unified and trulyconnected in a culture where
they, at the end of the day, sayman, I know, I was loved, I
felt it, I felt every bit of itgrowing up.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
I'm going to add a witness here.
I just I mentored a guy who'sgoing off to college and he's in
one of these families likeyours I described and he said
you know, my parents were reallytough on me, but they always
explained why they were doingwhat they were doing.
And now I understand and I'm sograteful.
(48:22):
So it is all worth it.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
And that, if you needed to hear that, just replay
that part right there, becausedown the road your child will
appreciate this type offormation.
They will see the benefitsbecause they are going to
witness their peers go throughdivorces, check into rehab
facilities, lose jobs, be underthe bridge, just it's.
(48:47):
It's not a matter of you knowwhen.
It's just going to happen.
They're going to witness thatand and they're going to go back
and go.
What's different about me?
You know, how was I raisedversus how they were raised?
And they're going to see,they're going to see on both
sides of it versus how they wereraised and they're going to see
, they're going to see on bothsides of it.
So I think, yeah, we have aduty to do our best as parents
(49:09):
and to focus on what reallymatters, and that means making
tough decisions and it alsomeans a lot of joy and happiness
in our later lives when we getto delight in our children
living out their vocations withjoy and freedom like other
people may not experience everin their lifetime.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Exactly right, Jordan .
Speaker 1 (49:30):
So good, dr Johan de Souza.
Man, this has been a wonderfulconversation I have.
If you found yourself sort ofnodding along and feeling that
nudge to do something different,it's really time to take action
to protect your family fromdigital destruction.
(49:51):
And if you feel like ahypocrite oh, I don't know,
because I'm in my phone all thetime Take this step downgrade
your phone to something lightthat is just literally you know,
something simple as a bridge toget you off of apps and social
media and everything, and thenshare that journey with your
(50:11):
kids.
You know, model for them whatit's like.
It's hard.
You've had to do somethingdifferent.
You've had to retool how youwork your business or whatever,
but journey alongside them sothat they can witness you making
healthy choices for yourselfand then get on board with
saying no to all these digitaldevices for your kids too.
(50:33):
Guys, dr D'Souza, he's not justa gifted clinician and
researcher, but he's also adynamic speaker who really
brings clarity, conviction andcompassion to this topic of
saving your family from digitaldestruction.
I'm sure you felt that intoday's conversation and what I
love is that you're not worriedabout kind of mincing work Like
(50:56):
you're.
Just, I feel like there'ssomething about you that feels
this pressure.
Like, if not now, then when.
Like you parents need to hearit, even if it hurts a little
bit.
You parents and you schooladministrators and moms groups.
Like, if you truly want to knowhow to raise happy, healthy,
successful kids, then I'm justgoing to like cut to the chase
(51:17):
and deliver the message in astraightforward manner, right?
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Yeah, yeah, and I haven't always been like this,
but I've realized throughexperience that we're in a
straightforward manner, right,yeah, yeah, and I haven't always
been like this, but I'verealized through experience that
we're in a war and we're notwinning the war right now, and
we need this message.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Yes, amen to that.
Well, make sure that you reachout.
And if you are connected to aschool, a mom's group, your
local church and you found thismessage helpful and would like
to bring Dr D'Souza into yourspace, he speaks, he travels and
speaks, so what you can do iscontact him directly at
(51:55):
valuesfirstcollectivecom.
Forward slash about that linkis in our show notes below, so
if you just click that link youcan send a message, get a
conversation started abouthiring for him to speak at an
event.
Have I missed anything?
Is that the best way for themto find you?
Speaker 2 (52:14):
Yeah, that's great.
I appreciate that, Jordan.
I really do love speaking andI'm happy to spread the word.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
And thank you for not just putting the message out
there and saying here's all theresearch.
I'm just going to scare you off.
You come with that.
That, that follow-up that's soimportant, that call to action
that's saying and here's whatI'm asking you to do to save
your family, don't do thesmartphones, say no when
everyone's saying yes and youhave confidence in us that we
(52:42):
can make that work and thatit'll be worth it.
So that is awesome, guys.
Check out his podcast, virtuousLeaders Podcast.
Great episodes with otherprofessionals and researchers,
psychologists.
So if you like what you heardhere, check out his podcast as
well.
That is linked in our shownotes.
(53:03):
Any final words, dr D'Souza,before we let you go.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Being a parent is really a privilege and it goes
by very quickly and what ablessing it is, and you see the
reward as your child gets olderand has their own kids as well.
So it's worth it and thechallenge is part of the fun, so
enjoy the journey.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
Thank you so so much.
Guys, if you enjoyed thismessage or you are thinking
about someone in particular thatcould benefit from this message
, please text this on to them,send it to them in an email,
direct their attention to thisepisode and share it far and
wide.
There are many more messageslike this than you even know
(53:49):
about, which is such a blessing.
It's a beautiful thing toreally feel the tide turning and
understand that we are part ofa community that really wants
the best for our families, andthat means listening to these
kind of messages and takingaction on those.
So share our podcast withpeople in your network and, if
you want to check out this videoversion, jump over to YouTube
(54:14):
and you can catch the episodethere on the Families of
Character show.
Ok, we'll catch you on anotherepisode real soon.
Stay tuned.
Hey parents, welcome back to our show.
If you feel like your family isat war with screens, or you
feel like devices are stealingyour kids' attention, their joy,
maybe even your connection withthem, you are not alone.
Today's guest says you know, itdoesn't have to be that way.
(00:21):
In fact, he believes that, withthe right approach, you can
turn the tide and save yourfamily from digital destruction.
Yeah, that's the word he usesis digital destruction.
Okay, so I want you to staytuned with us to the end.
I'm happy to be back here andto be in this position of being
(00:43):
able to interview our guest.
I was also on his show too, soDr Johan D'Souza is a clinical
psychologist with a very uniqueperspective.
He's not only grounded incutting edge mental health
research, but he's also deeplyrooted in something we value
here at Families of Character,which is traditional family
(01:06):
values.
Now, dr D'Souza holds both amaster's and a PhD in clinical
psychology from the Universityof Houston and a bachelor's in
theology from the good oldUniversity of Dallas, and his
private practice, called ValuesFirst Therapy, really focuses on
(01:27):
helping high achieving youngpeople break free from anxiety
and OCD.
He's published over 20peer-reviewed articles and is a
research affiliate withHarvard's Human Flourishing
Program.
As if that weren't enough, heis also, like I said, the host
of the Virtuous Leaders podcast,where he highlights people who
(01:50):
embody both moral andprofessional excellence and,
like I said, I've been superblessed to have been a guest on
his show.
So Dr DeSouza joins us today totalk about what he calls
digital destruction somethinghe's been speaking on for seven
years and, more importantly, howwe can protect our families
(02:13):
from it.
So welcome to the show, drD'Souza.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Thanks, jordan, it's great to be here and thanks for
joining my show and thank youfor the good work that you do,
because you are one of thepeople I've seen who's helped
young couples the most, so weneed that.
So keep up the good work there.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
It was a blessing to be on yourshow and just to talk about
what we do at Families ofCharacter and how we desire to
help couples who are raisingkids, in the busyness of family
life, to really prioritizerelationships, with their faith
being the foundation and thentheir marriage being a high
(02:50):
priority and then therelationship with their kids.
So it was just a blessing to beable to speak on your show
about that and honored that youwould consider me a virtuous
leader.
I love that.
It's so great.
Let's jump right in and talkabout this idea of digital
destruction.
You are out there speaking andthis is a topic that you've done
(03:11):
a lot of research on.
So what do you mean when youtalk about digital destruction?
That's hurting our kids.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, so I'm coming at this from two angles because,
as you said, I have theprofessional background I'm a
private practice specialist inanxiety and distraction so I see
it from that angle.
But then I also see it becauseI've invested many hours over
the last 15 years in mentoringyoung men.
So I've seen the families, I'veseen them grow from being
(03:42):
people I've seen in third gradeand now they're graduating
college, getting married andseeing the impact of technology
on them.
I believe that this is thesingle most important issue that
young people face, and it's notjust in my anecdotal experience
, because then we look worldwideat this point, as if you would
(04:04):
need research to support this,but we do have research
supporting the destruction thatyoung people are facing.
So I'm going to give you oneexample.
This is again worldwide researchon happiness levels.
So historically we've we'veseen that the youngest people
have had the highest degrees oflife satisfaction.
People in the middle of theirhave had the highest degrees of
life satisfaction.
(04:25):
People in the middle of theirlife have the lowest degrees of
life satisfaction.
They're stressed out, they'retaking care of their kids,
they're also taking care oftheir parents, they have a busy
job.
And then people in the lastthird of their life also have a
high level of life satisfaction.
So historically, the happinesscurve has been like a U-shaped
curve, with the youngest and theoldest being the same at the
(04:47):
highest level.
Now, in recent years, around2010, this curve changed.
One group went from being themost happy to being the least
happy, and that's the youngestgroup the youngest group.
Now the curve is not a Uanymore, it's a straight line,
with the youngest groupreporting the lowest levels of
(05:09):
happiness.
And now what we've seen alsodigging even further down into
the research, is skyrocketingrates of anxiety, depression,
suicidality in the youngest agegroup, starting at 2010.
So there's a clear inflectionpoint.
If you look at the graphsthere's it's kind of like slowly
(05:30):
going up.
Then at 2010, they call it likethe hockey stick graph because
it's like the handle of a hockeystick just shoots way up.
We're talking about doubling ortripling rates of anxiety,
depression and suicidality allaround the world, primarily in
secular, english-speaking,wealthy countries such as yes,
(05:55):
us, canada, uk, australia, newZealand, around the world.
But the funny thing about it isit's specifically for young
people, because we can compareit to other age groups who have
been given the same surveys andtheir levels don't change.
It's the youngest people.
What happened in 2010?
So that's the questionpopularized and the first social
(06:22):
media for the smartphone wasreleased, which is Instagram,
which is basically a gatewaydrug into pornography.
If you've ever been onInstagram, there are
advertisements for pornographyon it and if you scroll, you're
going to hit it.
So that's why this is a mentalhealth crisis and the biggest
(06:43):
challenge facing young peopletoday.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
So that's why this is a mental health crisis and the
biggest challenge facing youngpeople today.
Wow, that just gave me theshivers to think that, you know,
young children years agoreported these high levels of
happiness and then, all of asudden, 15 years ago, they are,
you know, depressed and anxiousand reporting some of the lowest
levels of happiness because ofthis technology, because of this
invention and this pouring intosocial media and the digital
(07:09):
addiction that started back then.
Like that's heartbreaking and itwas really helpful for you to
talk about the U shape.
And then, all of a sudden, thishockey stick with the rates of
anxiety and mental health issues, you know, shooting up.
It's like for it to go from andyou imagine like, yeah, the
(07:30):
young children, they have thisnatural innocence and they're
playing and they know they'regood and they know that the
world is good and thatinherently people are, you know,
want good and beautiful andtrue things.
And then for that to be crushedthrough the invention of this
(07:50):
device that we have now becomeaccustomed to using all the time
and handing to our kids whenwe're strolling through the
grocery store so they won't makea noise or they won't bother us
, you know, when we're on thephone or whatever, that this has
taken that innocence away fromthem and sort of hooked them and
(08:11):
trapped them.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right and we see the.
So the consequences are notjust the anxiety and depression,
suicidality, but it's alsobecause you have to think about
well what leads to those things.
What's the mediating factors?
And a huge one here is lack ofsleep.
So sleep is so important forphysical and mental health.
(08:33):
It's probably the single mostimportant factor for physical
and mental health.
It's more important than food.
You can survive longer withoutfood than you can without sleep.
There's on record a gentleman,angus, in the UK, who lived more
than a year without eating food.
Believe it or not, he losthundreds of pounds, but you
(08:54):
can't live I think the record ismaybe like about 10 days, 12
days, something like that,without sleep.
So the young people, whenthey're at the time in their
lives when they need the mostsleep, they're sleep because if
the phone is in the room they'renot sleeping.
And then you have the socialdeficits, you have the
distraction, you have theaddiction, and we can get into
(09:15):
each of those into more detail.
But these are some of theconsequences and mediating
factors that lead to the anxiety, depression and ultimately
suicide.
Mediating factors that lead tothe anxiety depression and
ultimately suicide.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Sleep you mentioned that as just one of the primary
factors in flourishing or dying.
Basically right, I mean youcan't go without it.
I used to work in a psychiatrichospital and that would be one
of the primary reasons peoplewould be admitted is because
they had gone without sleep forthree or four or five days.
They're up either usingsubstances or gaming for days on
(09:49):
end and they become psychotic.
They lose all sense of realityand they're not in touch and in
tune with what's going on aroundthem.
And that same thing can behappening in your own child's
bedroom.
Right, they sneak their phonein there, they've got their
tablet.
You don't know because you'renot keeping track of.
(10:09):
You know where the devices arestored or docked at night, and
all of a sudden you startnoticing this.
You know kid that looks likethey have ADHD, that can't pay
attention to things and you knowis irritable and agitated, not
performing well at school, right.
And so those things, I think,catch our attention, that the
(10:32):
teachers say they'redistractible all the time.
Maybe they need medication orit just seemed grumpy or
whatever.
But it's important, like yousaid, to drill down and instead
of sort of slapping a band-aidon it, like you said, to drill
down and instead of sort ofslapping a bandaid on it where
it's like, oh yeah, let's justkind of give them a stimulant or
you know, take them to atherapist and, just, you know,
(10:57):
check out for an hour every weekwhile they do their thing with
their therapist and hope thatthat works.
I hear you kind of sayingwithout saying, like what about
technology?
Just taking kind of an audit oftechnology in your own home and
in bedrooms and places whereit's important that your kids
are getting quality sleep right.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean.
So you talked about ADHD.
Well, adhd is two things it'sdistraction and or hyperactivity
.
So both of those things are aresult of the lack of
development of the prefrontalcortex, which is responsible for
so-called executive function,inhibitive control, being able
(11:30):
to control impulses, for example.
So teenagers are at the stagewhere their prefrontal cortex is
not developed yet.
That doesn't finish developinguntil the mid-20s, and so, at
the time when they are the mostimpulsive and most distractible,
they're given a device that'sdesigned to take advantage and
(11:51):
increase impulsivity anddistractibility.
So, as you probably know, jordan, these apps, these devices, are
purposely gamified to beaddictive.
So, for example, infinitescroll it just goes on forever,
it doesn't stop, it's constantlychanging, the colors are
constantly changing, thepictures, the images are
(12:13):
changing, the sounds arechanging, and they're on.
These apps are on what's calleda variable reward schedule,
which has been shown to be themost addictive type of way of
rewarding people.
It's how slot machines work.
So the way slot machines workis they give you a reward you
get.
If you put in a dollar, you'regoing to get about 80 cents back
(12:36):
over time.
If you put in $100, you needabout $80 back over time, but
the when you get that money backis not predictable over time.
But the when you get that moneyback is not predictable.
It's random, which keeps ushooked, because each pull could
be the one where we get thejackpot, where we get the money,
and that's how.
That's how the apps aredesigned to that it gives us a
(12:56):
reward.
In this case, the reward isbasically other people viewing
our content, and so the appcontrols how many people it
shows the content to andtherefore how many people view
and like and subscribe andinteract with our content.
But it's on a variable reward,so we never know when we're
(13:17):
going to get that affirmation,that hit, and it could be the
next time, it could be the nexttime.
And then you have these pushnotifications, which how
difficult is it to resist notclicking when you see that red
square with the number threenotifications on?
And the thing is, you and I areprobably addicted.
(13:39):
I mean, if we have smartphones,if we have social media, we're
probably addicted.
They're designed to beaddictive.
If adults are addicted to it,which they almost certainly are
I personally believe that it'spractically impossible to have a
smartphone and not be addictedto it then how much more are the
kids going to be addicted to it.
And now the device is formingtheir brains because, keep in
(14:02):
mind, their brains are moreactively developing than ours
are.
Their brains are still beingpruned, so the neuronal pruning,
meaning that what they do getsmore hardwired, what they don't
do dies away.
So these devices are activelyshaping the formation of their
brains.
Jordan.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
What they don't do dies away.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So the neuronal pruning yeah, I don't know if
you're aware of it.
This is fascinating.
So from the ages of zero tothree years old, there's
something called neurogenesis orsynaptogenesis, in which
there's connections being formedbetween the neurons at a rate
of hundreds of connections persecond.
It's pretty, it's incrediblereally.
There's so many connections Now.
(14:45):
So that's from the age of zeroto three.
So that's why little kids havethe ability to learn every human
language that exists.
Any baby can learn that withouteven putting in the effort,
they just absorb it right Now.
That's called a critical period.
Now, from the age of threeonwards, the brain is no longer
(15:06):
focusing on synaptogenesis, oncreating connections.
It's now focusing on pruningthe connections.
It's like pruning a tree.
We're going to take away thethings that are not being used
in order to increase theefficiency of the pathways that
are being used.
So now we're no longer as ableto learn a new language, but the
(15:31):
things that we have learned.
We can do it more easily andmore quickly and more
automatically.
Think about how easy it is forus to walk, compared to a baby
who has to think so deliberatelyabout every single step.
You know what that's like, butwhat that means is because of
this neuronal pruning.
It's literally use it or loseit.
(15:51):
So what they are, the youngpeople have been practicing.
If they're practicing sportshobbies, drawing, socializing,
talking with other people, doingchores around the house,
studying, they're going to getbetter and better and better at
those things.
It's going to become moreautomatic, the things.
Whereas if they're practicingeight hours of entertainment,
(16:12):
screen time a day, which someyoung people report, literally a
full time job of entertainment,40 hours a week, eight hours a
day so then that that's whatthey're going to get better at,
and the other things thatthey're not practicing they're
going to.
They're losing the ability topractice it, which is why young
people I don't know if you'venoticed, as I have in my
(16:34):
mentoring, that you meet peoplewho they don't know how to
socialize.
They don't know how to look youin the eyes.
They don't know how to shakeyour hand.
I don't know where thesepeople's fathers are.
They don't know how to shaketheir hand, shake a man's hand.
They don't know how to initiatea conversation.
What they know how to do islook at their feet and take out
their phone and avoid eyecontact.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
That really hits, because I'm thinking too of that
critical time period with youngchildren and learning how to
read, and to read good books andgood literature, right, and how
that skill dies off.
If all you're doing is beingentertained by YouTube shorts
and games, right, that ping andding and the colors all go off
(17:16):
and on and the next time youcould be the winner of this game
or you could beat Joey, who'sactually a bot but you think
he's real, you know and like.
If they're doing that and theirbrain is craving more of that,
that's destroying these otherparts of them, like the desire
to read and the the ability toread and comprehend things and
(17:40):
to be able to speak aboutsomething they've read or to
have a Socratic dialogue withanother person about that in the
flesh right.
So that just gives me theshivers Again.
It's like we're trading ourhumanity for this addictive
device.
That's just destroying us.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
That's exactly it.
I love the way you phrase that,jordan.
We're trading our humanity forit.
So the way that young peopledescribe their experience these
days is they feel hollow andvacant, like a robot without an
operating system.
They're dead on the insidetheir body's without a soul.
(18:19):
They're empty, vacuous.
There is no interior life,there is no spiritual life, and
that's what happens when weexperience addiction.
So with addiction, our brain isnow wired to feed the addiction
.
That is the highest priority.
The resources of the brain arewired to satisfy that and
(18:41):
everything else is in a secondplace, and what's basically
ultimately sacrificed on thedeepest level is intimate
relationships.
So people no longer have theseintimate relationships.
They're replacing theirrelationships with, with virtual
interactions.
And the biggest example of this,the single most destructive
(19:03):
force for young men todaypornography addiction.
It is so rampant.
Pornography addiction is sorampant.
If a young man has a smartphone, he's seen pornography on it.
The average age of exposure is10 years old.
And the amount of content thatpeople are consuming.
People don't realize thatpornography companies make more
(19:25):
than Netflix, for example.
There's a single pornographycompany that makes more than
Netflix and some other majorcompanies combined.
The fact is that you may thinkthat your child is innocent and
good, and then you give them aphone.
Once they have that phone, theywere innocent, but they're not
anymore.
I recently gave a talk inanother city to a group of young
(19:47):
men and I asked them hey, howmany of your friends do you
think are addicted topornography?
And I said, hey, is it morethan 50 or less than 50%?
More than 50.
Is it more than 60?
More than 60.
Is it more than 70?
More than 70.
Is it more than 80?
More than 80.
Is it more than 70?
More than 70?
Is it more than 80?
More than 80?
Is it more than 90?
(20:08):
And that's when we settled at85 they said 85.
I actually believe that it'sprobably higher.
These were all really good kids, so probably there's their
friends are, are definitelybetter than average.
But from, yeah, from what I'veseen and what I've when I've
talked to in mentoring sessions,basically people say that like,
unless you're, unless you'relike an exceptional one in a
(20:30):
million kid who I have met andpersonally worked with and
they're amazing, then yeah,you're struggling with
pornography.
It doesn't matter how good yourparents are, it doesn't matter
how much Catholic doctrine youknow, it doesn't matter that.
You know it's wrong.
That's the problem.
It's an addiction.
They know it's wrong.
That's not the problem.
That's trying to break it.
(20:50):
They're trying to stop it.
They can't.
It's an addiction and it'sgoing to last years and decades
and it's going to affect theirmarriages.
It's going to affect the waythey look at women for the rest
of their life.
It's going to affect theirhappiness.
It's going to affect theirability to concentrate at their
job and maybe even not get firedbecause of the content that
they're viewing.
(21:10):
So this is a serious, seriousproblem that it's very hard to
overestimate how big of aproblem this is.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
What are you seeing in your mentoring, when you do
counseling with teens and youngadults who have high anxiety,
addictions to devices andpornography and social media and
that sort of thing, the onesthat?
Do you see many clients foranxiety that don't have
smartphones?
They have like a light phone orsome other social media based
(21:41):
or smartphone type of device.
I guess.
Do you see clients that havehigh anxiety that don't have
that?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
That's a great question.
So I mentioned these, this likekind of one in a million
student, who's exceptional,who's very mature I think, more
mature than I am, in some ways,definitely more mature than I
was when I was their age and thehighest performing, most
impressive young man I've workedwith, even in a volunteer
mentoring context.
(22:08):
They don't have smartphones,they don't even have phones.
So I'm involved in a leadershipprogram where I help some of
the young men to help theirfriends.
So so this is like a very, veryselect small group of people
who I teach leadership tovirtuous leadership, and at one
point I was trying to gettogether like a group
(22:29):
communication, like to organizean event, like let me try to put
that, see if I can throw themon a group chat here, and what I
realized is wait a second, noneof these people have phones.
I can't contact any of thesepeople because they don't have
phones.
The ones who are the most mature, the ones who are the leaders
is, not only do they not havesmartphones, they don't even
have phones.
And those are the ones thathave a sense of self-confidence
(22:53):
and independence and not needingto be approved of and liked by
the group.
In fact, other people are theones who are seeking their
approval.
So anxious moms worry aboutwell, will my son be accepted,
will my daughter be accepted ifshe doesn't have social media?
Yeah, actually, she's gonna bea lot more confident if she
(23:15):
doesn't have social media,because we know now that there's
a bi directional relationshipbetween social media use and
loneliness.
This was published in theassociation of psychological
science, so that means that's,as you would expect, the more
lonely someone is, the moresocial media they they use, but
also the more social media theyuse, the more lonely they feel.
(23:38):
So it's a classic vicious cyclethat feeds on itself.
Social media, smartphone, it'snot giving your child confidence
, it's weakening them, it'smaking them dependent.
It's making them dependent onpeer pressure and social
expectations and it's basicallyreplacing your parenting with a
group of teenagers with noaccountability, going to the
(24:02):
lowest common denominator andbeing manipulated by
multi-billion dollar companieswho are trying to sell them
products and, in some cases,intentionally destroy their
souls, frankly, and they'redoing a pretty good job they are
doing a pretty good job.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
The statistics show that with, with the rates of
suicide and, like you said,these children, these young
teenagers, young adults walkingaround like a shell, a robot, no
soul, no purpose, right, itjust the likes and the shares
and the hearts, and it's notenough.
(24:41):
It's not enough to keep themgoing.
Wow, okay, so I am.
I've got a lot of thoughtsgoing on right now and one of
them is our son turned 13 inFebruary and he really wanted a
phone.
And we said you know what?
We think that the next bestthing for you might be a bank
account.
Well, that has nothing to dowith communication and me like
(25:02):
talking to my friends and beingable to see them on video chat
and everything we said.
We know, we know, we understandthat, but there's a high price
that comes with theresponsibility of a phone and
basically a computer in yourpocket.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
And we know that, that's just not.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
We wouldn't leave the front door to our house open at
night and allow anyone to justwalk in and do whatever they
wanted and expose themselves inwhatever way they felt that they
they desired, you know.
And so we're not going to giveyou something in your pocket
where you could open it up andanybody could expose you to
anything they wanted not onlyone person, but just millions of
people and it will be safer foryou to leave your front door
(25:41):
open at night than to do this ona smartphone?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Totally, I firmly believe that, and looking at the
statistical records of violentcrime in the US backs that up.
Actually, so a child would haveto.
If you wanted your child to bekidnapped, you'd have to live
until they were 700,000 yearsold.
That's how unlikely it is.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Say more about that, because I listened to one of the
podcast episodes that you didwith a guest who was talking
about that.
Like parents fear of lettingtheir kids out of the house to
go to the neighborhood parkacross the street because
they're telling themselves, well, they could get kidnapped.
What are the chances, what arethe likelihood of that, versus
all this destruction that'shappening online?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Exactly so.
There's a vast overestimationof physical danger and a vast
underestimation of digitaldanger.
So, again, going back to kidnap, and this is like.
I've actually looked at thestatistics and you don't have to
take my word for it, you canGoogle it yourself and put
together the graphs.
So it's more likely for a childto be born as a conjoined twin
than it is to be kidnapped.
(26:39):
It's more likely for a child tobe struck by lightning than it
is to be kidnapped, whereas whenyou so in Childhood 2.0, which
is a great documentary on thedangers of toxic screen use, so
they did an experiment wherethey created a profile for a
14-year-old girl 12-year-oldgirl, something like that and
(27:02):
within five minutes they had anadult predator exposing himself
to this child, to this fictionalchild that they had created.
So these digital dangers are,they are so real.
I was talking to anotherteenager and he said and again,
one of these guys who doesn'thave a phone?
And he said that, yeah, one ofthese guys who doesn't have a
(27:22):
phone?
And he said that, yeah, it'sjust, it's just normal for young
people to just send nude photosof themselves.
That's, that's normal.
That's like considered now thefirst step of even not even
dating, but of pre-dating andand that's so dark, that doesn't
, that doesn't go away.
They just have such a, theyjust have such a distorted sense
of reality.
You know that there's their,there's the evidence for the
(27:44):
prefrontal cortex not not beingdeveloped.
So you know, and I, you know, I,I sometimes wonder if this
underestimation of physicalsorry, the overestimation of
physical danger is ultimatelydue to contraception, that
because of contraception,parents are not having as many
kids.
So when you have eight kids,you're not worried about.
(28:05):
Hey, I need to track my kid atall times, using my phone and
their phone to track theirphysical location, which has
never been done in the historyof humanity until a few years
ago, whereas when you only haveone or two kids, you don't have
anything else to do and youdon't have any other older kids
to help you in the task.
So you see your job as justtracking where your child is all
(28:28):
the time, and to the detrimentof the child.
The children are no longer ableto experience independence and
growth and real learning fromthe real world, and that's what
they need and that's why I saythat I think one of the biggest
reasons why we're facing thisdigital destruction is parental
(28:50):
anxiety.
It's actually I don't thinkit's ignorance.
It's parental anxiety that theparents aren't doing it for
their kid, they're doing it forthemselves.
They want to feel morecomfortable, they want to worry
less, they want to think thatthey're being good parents and
inadvertently, they're actuallyaccomplishing the opposite.
(29:10):
They're harming their kids morethan just giving them freedom
and independence would.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Wow, parental anxiety ?
Yes, and it's so refreshing totalk to you, johan, because I'll
just say that we need to behearing more from people like
you, who have done the research,you know the dangers, you have
hundreds and thousands of casestudies to back up what you're
encouraging us to do, which isto say no to digital devices
(29:37):
when everyone else is saying yes, and I'm just like cheering and
clapping over here.
I'm like yes yes, I have a 13and a half year old who hasn't
looked at a computer all summer.
Not a single computer, a tablet, a phone.
We've watched one hour of amusic TV program at night, maybe
(29:59):
three or four times per week assome fun little entertainment.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
God bless you.
I just can't give enough praiseand support to what you're
doing with your family.
I just give you all theencouragement in the world
You're doing it the right way.
Your child is going to be so,so grateful.
Your child is going to love youfor it and he's going to raise
his children, your grandchildren, just like you raised him.
And guess what?
These parents who are spoilingother kids and giving them,
(30:27):
giving into all their demands,not thinking of what's best for
the kid, but caving to their ownpersonal anxiety.
I hate to say this, but theirchildren are going to hate them
for it.
They're going to hate the factthat they no longer, they don't
have self discipline and they'regoing to be adults acting like
children, and they're going toblame it on their parents, as
they should, frankly.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yes, and you've heard the saying as a parent, you're
only as happy as your mostunhappy child.
Sometimes, if that's what ittakes to motivate you to make
some of these decisions thinkingabout yourself in retirement or
, you know, towards the end ofyour life, like wanting to be
(31:08):
happy and to be, you know, in aplace where you're enjoying life
then you got to make some harddecisions today.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
You got to be a freaking parent.
You have to be an adult.
This is something that so Italk about parental anxiety.
The other element here is justweak men.
Weak men like just grow up andbe an adult, do what's best for
your child, do what's best foryour family.
So why are you letting yourchild run the house?
(31:37):
That's literally.
What's happening is thesehouseholds are being run by the
emotions of a teenage girl.
That's literally, withoutexaggeration.
What's happening is thesehouseholds are being run by the
emotions of a teenage girl.
That's literally, withoutexaggeration, what's happening.
Because the emotions of thegirl control the girl's actions
and that controls usually it'softentimes the mom's actions.
And then the dad just cavesinto it.
And I'm saying, because I seethis in my therapy practice,
(32:00):
where I'm sitting with mom, dadand child and I'm laying it out
in a much, much more gentle,empathetic way than I'm doing it
now when I'm on your show, Ifeel free to just kind of
actually speak my mind.
I'm so glad.
So thank you.
So I lay out the case in a veryempathetic way and what happens
is invariably the mom has thisconcerned, look on her face and
(32:23):
the dad is nodding along likeyes, yes, I told you.
I told you we shouldn't havegot into video games.
And I'm thinking like dude,what's I mean come?
Speaker 1 (32:31):
on man Like.
You're the man of the house,you're the head of the family.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
You knew this was wrong and you didn't stand up
for it.
Like, what is your role rightnow as a human being if you're
not doing that?
So I mean, let's man up.
God has given you thisauthority as parents.
Your children have been trustedto you, not to the school, not
to the government, not to Apple,not to Instagram.
(32:57):
Your children have beenentrusted to you.
You have the rightful authority.
I like to tell parents trustyour judgment, trust your
parental instinct.
If society is doing things oneway, then probably you just do
the opposite and you're going toend up in a much better place.
So I want to give that messageof encouragement.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Thank you.
I love that.
I saw your animation and youcome to life when you were
talking about like men, let's goman up, make the decision.
And over here, as a wife I'mthinking ladies, step aside.
(33:36):
Allow your husband to lead,even if it's going to be hard,
or your daughter's going to havea meltdown because dad said
you're not leaving in that skirt.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
You're going to go put some shorts on right Ladies,
let them lead right.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
So often we sideline our spouse or stick them in the
trunk and go.
Just trust me, all the girlsare dressing like this, so it's
not a big deal.
People are used to this.
No, people are not used to this.
Nobody's ever going to be usedto the short skirt.
Everybody looks.
It's a total distraction.
It causes men to think in acertain way about your daughter
(34:06):
and about other things that areimpure and unhealthy for you.
So it's okay to be the one thatsays let's go through your
dresser drawers, try this stuffon.
If it doesn't hit around theknee, then let's just.
Let's donate it to somebodythat's younger than you are
Right and do the hard thing.
You are swimming upstream folksIf you're listening to this and
going like, oh, these twothey're.
(34:28):
They're telling us to do things.
No one in our neighborhood isdoing.
Yes, that's right, you'rehearing correctly.
They're telling you to goagainst the culture because the
culture is in a bad way.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
A majority of people are not living holy lives where
they understand the value ofthemselves as a human being, and
it's always been like that Idon't know if your audience has
ever just read through thehistorical books of sacred
scripture, it's fascinating,it's surprisingly dark, and what
it shows is that it's alwaysbeen this way.
(35:02):
It's always been a small groupof God's faithful people being
persecuted by an evil empirewith immense resources, and
whether it's the Assyrians orthe Babylonians or the Romans or
the Greeks or the US empire orthe British empire, it's
literally always been like thatand it will always be like that
(35:23):
until the end of time.
So yeah, if you're going to bea Christian, that means being
countercultural.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yes, thank you for that reminder, because you're so
right.
And there's that passage inscripture that talks about the
narrow gate, right, like that'swhat we're going for people, the
narrow gate, we're not goingfor the wide, open road that
everybody's wandering around on.
That's like I don't know.
Maybe it's this, maybe it'sthat.
No, there are a select fewcritical, few things that we're
(35:50):
called to as Christians.
Right, and it's a beautiful lifewhen you say no to the things
that don't move you towardsheaven and don't move you closer
to your family and your spouse.
It really is.
Don't move you towards heavenand don't move you closer to
your family and your spouse.
It really is.
And I guess, if you're not, ifyou feel like you're living sort
of this cultural lifestylewhere your kids already have
(36:13):
phones or tablets, you're noteven sure how many devices are
running around your household,it's okay to just kind of push
pause on everything and startthere.
Start by collecting thesedevices right and having a
conversation with your spouse ora trusted friend and saying,
(36:34):
like we have a problem here.
We have a problem.
We've become highly aware ofthis after listening to the show
or just a multitude ofdifferent messages that have
come at us, and we want to dosomething different.
Will you help us?
Will you help us to get rid ofsome of these?
Put protective software on thisstuff, to say no to this
(36:58):
digital destruction, because youonly get one shot at parenting.
You know we don't get anydo-overs and these are humans.
We're raising adults that wewant to be able to, you know,
live out their vocation and befull of joy and to really
radiate the love of God topeople and they're unable to do
(37:21):
that if they have been addictedand anxious and had this sort of
empty childhood because it'sbeen fed with digital devices,
right?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
You said it, jordan.
That's absolutely right, andparents often think that this is
a complicated issue.
This is a difficult issue.
This is a complex issue.
How many different devices andapps and there's a different,
something different coming outevery day and these filters, and
how do I track this or that?
Look, this is not a complicatedissue.
(37:51):
This is a simple issue.
It's very simple.
Never give your kid asmartphone.
It's that simple.
Never give your kid asmartphone.
That's all you have to do.
And parents just make it harderon themselves by setting up
these expectations of oh youknow, maybe if you're a little
(38:11):
bit more mature, maybe whenyou're a little bit older, maybe
when you're 16, maybe whenyou're this, maybe when you're
that, because they don't haveany personal conviction, they
don't understand what they'redoing.
They're flying by the seat oftheir pants, which I get.
But make it easy on yourself.
Never give your kid asmartphone.
That's the simplest decisionthat will have the biggest
positive impact on your life andthe life of your child.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Dr DeSuta, you gave it to us just simply.
Again, if this is hard for youto hear, you want to push, stop
and go.
This is craziness, that's okay,that's all right.
But some of us are tuning inand going.
I'm willing to make thesechoices, even if it's against
the grain, because I know that,like you said, I have been
entrusted to raise thesechildren and this is a gift that
(38:57):
I've been given and I've got tosteward it well, you know.
So you just convinced me.
I had earlier on the show Ican't remember the episode
number, but I interviewed JoeHollier and he is a co-founder
of the Light.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Phone, oh cool.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
And this phone has no social media.
It has no internet browser.
It is talking, is texting.
It has the ability to takephotos.
I'm not sure you can even sendthe photo to anyone through a
text and navigation a way to getyou around if you needed to.
But they've been testing thisin schools and there have been
schools that have committed toonly allowing students to have
(39:34):
light phones and they've donedifferent research with these
schools and kids hate them atfirst, like this is ridiculous.
We miss our smartphone orwhatever.
And then they feel free, theyfeel the sense of freedom to
engage their friends in personand to enjoy.
All of a sudden they have allthis time back that they used to
(39:57):
not even realize that they werespending scrolling and checking
, you know, every app and everynotification all the time, and
now they, like after a detoxperiod, they've come alive and
they've they experience more joy.
Their happiness meter is likegoing off the charts.
So there's also otheralternatives.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
so I think that's important to say is that you
know you can live without aphone and there's an assumption
now that, okay, what kind ofphone do I need to get my kid?
So the assumption is my kid hasto have a phone.
That's an assumption.
Your child does not have tohave a phone.
This is a recent phenomenon.
This is out of all of humanhistory.
This is 15 years old, right?
(40:55):
Your child does not even need aphone at all and probably their
lives will be much betterwithout it.
Because you got these toxicgroup texts and any teenager on
a group text.
It goes to the lowest commondenominator.
It's horrible.
Just if you don't believe me,just check out your child's
group text sending photos.
(41:16):
Yeah, that's, that's a recipefor a disaster.
So it's not just about thesocial media and the video games
, but even just the texting andjust giving them a chance to be
a child, to not have to worryabout responding right away, to
not have to worry aboutconstantly checking this thing.
I mean you and I as adults, I'msure we feel I know I often do
(41:38):
like man.
Wouldn't it be great if we justkind of like, were able to
frolic in the woods and not haveto check technology at all.
And because of our obligationsmaybe that's not possible for us
, but it is possible for yourchild.
Your child does not have to beconnected.
And what a gift, that gift ofchildhood, which they only have
once in their life and you cangive that to them now and they
(42:02):
can have true friendships andtrue relationships and true
adventure.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Thank you.
Thank you for instilling thathope and reminding us that it's
possible and that you know this,because you're working with
these people and these familiesall the time in your private
practice.
So this isn't made up.
This is truly happening.
I will say, too, from ourstandpoint.
We started our oldest son at ahigh school and within two weeks
(42:30):
of him being on the footballteam, he said well, mom, I got
to have Snapchat.
And we said oh no, we're neverhaving Snapchat.
Well, I have to because that'show I have to communicate with
the team.
That's what the coaches said noproblem, this is like you're
going to have to do the hardthing and ask them for their
phone number.
Oh, no, no, no, I can't do that.
There's so much anxiety aroundthis.
Month after month.
(42:51):
In that first semester, thingsjust started unraveling and we
knew this was not going to be agood fit and we transferred him
to a different school.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Guess what Good for you.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
No technology at the school?
Okay, great, you just took thatoff the table.
That's not even an issue he hasto worry about.
You did the right thing.
We've also done homeschooling,man.
There's just, there is options.
If you're thinking that doesn'twork for me.
Jordan must have this wealththat she can afford these
resources, but we can't, no,stop telling yourself that right
(43:21):
, I mean, we've made sacrificesin our lives as parents in order
to do the hard thing for ourkids and we have challenged each
other, as husband and wife, tostep up and take a stand, even
when it's hard and even whenyour kids are crying on the step
because another friend gotanother phone and they're the
(43:42):
last one of the entire group.
Right that we say?
I know this is really hard.
I can only imagine everybodyhaving all these things and you
feeling left out.
You know, just aligning withthem, just affirming them and
and then showing them,introducing them into things
that are actually more beautifuland more high quality for them.
(44:05):
Like I took my son to thecoffee shop because I had a Zoom
interview yesterday and guesswhat?
I put in his hand A book offthe shelf called Huckleberry
Finn.
I read it from start to finishin two hours and was like Mom.
This is awesome.
Whoa, not necessarily a reader,but because I took a little
(44:26):
extra time and put something inhis hand that I knew a 13 year
old boy would be interested inhe ate it up.
I woke up this morning Johan,no kidding, my, my kids were up
and I said they said, shh, we'redoing something.
I said, what, what are youdoing?
And they each held up a bookthat the boxcar children books
(44:49):
in their hands and they weredoing a read aloud and they're
like we've already read 62 pages.
It's only 930.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I'm like people who know me, Johan in.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Denver are like I would have never guessed, jordan
.
Like you have blonde hair andyou get your nails done and you
like you look like you kind offit in in culture and I'm like I
do, because I'm living in theworld, but we're also making
decisions in our home that aredifferent.
And it's OK, you can do thistoo, right, right?
Speaker 2 (45:19):
I just want to give a witness to you, jordan.
I knew you were good and a goodparent, but I didn't know how
good a parent you were untilthis conversation, and God bless
you for what you're doing.
You're doing it exactly theright way.
What a gift you're giving toyour children and they're going
to be truly happy and youalready have a happy family and
(45:40):
that's the highest good, humangood on earth.
It's heaven on earth, rightthere.
So your children are getting alittle foretaste of heaven, and
that is a witness to the rest ofsociety.
What's going to convert?
We need another Pentecost, weneed a renewal, especially in
Denver.
And what's going to convertthose people?
It's not bashing them upsidethe head with the Bible as much
(46:01):
as we feel like you probablydon't feel like doing that, but
maybe some other people do.
And what's going to convertthem is not just the
intellectual argument.
What's going to convert them isthe heart of seeing a beautiful
, loving, happy family, and thenthey'll realize I want it.
I don't know what it is, but Iwant this.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Thank you.
Thank you for just sharing thatwith me.
I'm going to absorb that and itgives me fuel to keep doing
what's right.
Ultimately, at the end of thislife, I am the one that has to
do an accounting before God ofthe decisions that I've made,
and so that also my belief inthat, you know, helps fuel the
(46:39):
decisions that I make, andsometimes I have to tell my kids
that, listen, I got to accountfor all this before our Lord.
Can you imagine sitting beforethe?
Speaker 2 (46:48):
judgment seat and saying hey, but everyone else
was doing it.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, that does not go well, that does not end well
it's not gonna cut it.
Yes, he says what about me?
I gave you the instructions, Igave you a very clear idea of
how to live your life and I gaveyou free will to choose other
things or to choose me, and itmay seem hard to make these
(47:15):
choices that we've talked abouttoday, and I get it.
I still struggle and we aregoing to continue to struggle
with these things.
We do not have it perfect downhere in Denver.
Team Langdon, we're bouncing offthe wall sometimes, and we're
constantly working to get better, but it is worth it.
It may be the hardest thing youhave to do, but it is the most
(47:38):
worth it thing to just keep youreyes focused on the critical
few things that are going toelevate your marriage, help your
family feel unified and trulyconnected in a culture where
they, at the end of the day, sayman, I know, I was loved, I
felt it, I felt every bit of itgrowing up.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
I'm going to add a witness here.
I just I mentored a guy who'sgoing off to college and he's in
one of these families likeyours I described and he said
you know, my parents were reallytough on me, but they always
explained why they were doingwhat they were doing.
And now I understand and I'm sograteful.
(48:22):
So it is all worth it.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
And that, if you needed to hear that, just replay
that part right there, becausedown the road your child will
appreciate this type offormation.
They will see the benefitsbecause they are going to
witness their peers go throughdivorces, check into rehab
facilities, lose jobs, be underthe bridge, just it's.
(48:47):
It's not a matter of you knowwhen.
It's just going to happen.
They're going to witness thatand and they're going to go back
and go.
What's different about me?
You know, how was I raisedversus how they were raised?
And they're going to see,they're going to see on both
sides of it versus how they wereraised and they're going to see
, they're going to see on bothsides of it.
So I think, yeah, we have aduty to do our best as parents
(49:09):
and to focus on what reallymatters, and that means making
tough decisions and it alsomeans a lot of joy and happiness
in our later lives when we getto delight in our children
living out their vocations withjoy and freedom like other
people may not experience everin their lifetime.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Exactly right, Jordan .
Speaker 1 (49:30):
So good, dr Johan de Souza.
Man, this has been a wonderfulconversation I have.
If you found yourself sort ofnodding along and feeling that
nudge to do something different,it's really time to take action
to protect your family fromdigital destruction.
(49:51):
And if you feel like ahypocrite oh, I don't know,
because I'm in my phone all thetime Take this step downgrade
your phone to something lightthat is just literally you know,
something simple as a bridge toget you off of apps and social
media and everything, and thenshare that journey with your
(50:11):
kids.
You know, model for them whatit's like.
It's hard.
You've had to do somethingdifferent.
You've had to retool how youwork your business or whatever,
but journey alongside them sothat they can witness you making
healthy choices for yourselfand then get on board with
saying no to all these digitaldevices for your kids too.
(50:33):
Guys, dr D'Souza, he's not justa gifted clinician and
researcher, but he's also adynamic speaker who really
brings clarity, conviction andcompassion to this topic of
saving your family from digitaldestruction.
I'm sure you felt that intoday's conversation and what I
love is that you're not worriedabout kind of mincing work Like
(50:56):
you're.
Just, I feel like there'ssomething about you that feels
this pressure.
Like, if not now, then when.
Like you parents need to hearit, even if it hurts a little
bit.
You parents and you schooladministrators and moms groups.
Like, if you truly want to knowhow to raise happy, healthy,
successful kids, then I'm justgoing to like cut to the chase
(51:17):
and deliver the message in astraightforward manner, right?
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Yeah, yeah, and I haven't always been like this,
but I've realized throughexperience that we're in a
straightforward manner, right,yeah, yeah, and I haven't always
been like this, but I'verealized through experience that
we're in a war and we're notwinning the war right now, and
we need this message.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Yes, amen to that.
Well, make sure that you reachout.
And if you are connected to aschool, a mom's group, your
local church and you found thismessage helpful and would like
to bring Dr D'Souza into yourspace, he speaks, he travels and
speaks, so what you can do iscontact him directly at
(51:55):
valuesfirstcollectivecom.
Forward slash about that linkis in our show notes below, so
if you just click that link youcan send a message, get a
conversation started abouthiring for him to speak at an
event.
Have I missed anything?
Is that the best way for themto find you?
Speaker 2 (52:14):
Yeah, that's great.
I appreciate that, Jordan.
I really do love speaking andI'm happy to spread the word.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
And thank you for not just putting the message out
there and saying here's all theresearch.
I'm just going to scare you off.
You come with that.
That, that follow-up that's soimportant, that call to action
that's saying and here's whatI'm asking you to do to save
your family, don't do thesmartphones, say no when
everyone's saying yes and youhave confidence in us that we
(52:42):
can make that work and thatit'll be worth it.
So that is awesome, guys.
Check out his podcast, virtuousLeaders Podcast.
Great episodes with otherprofessionals and researchers,
psychologists.
So if you like what you heardhere, check out his podcast as
well.
That is linked in our shownotes.
(53:03):
Any final words, dr D'Souza,before we let you go.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Being a parent is really a privilege and it goes
by very quickly and what ablessing it is, and you see the
reward as your child gets olderand has their own kids as well.
So it's worth it and thechallenge is part of the fun, so
enjoy the journey.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
Thank you so so much.
Guys, if you enjoyed thismessage or you are thinking
about someone in particular thatcould benefit from this message
, please text this on to them,send it to them in an email,
direct their attention to thisepisode and share it far and
wide.
There are many more messageslike this than you even know
(53:49):
about, which is such a blessing.
It's a beautiful thing toreally feel the tide turning and
understand that we are part ofa community that really wants
the best for our families, andthat means listening to these
kind of messages and takingaction on those.
So share our podcast withpeople in your network and, if
you want to check out this videoversion, jump over to YouTube
(54:14):
and you can catch the episodethere on the Families of
Character show.
Ok, we'll catch you on anotherepisode real soon.
Stay tuned.
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