September 30, 2025 • 59 mins
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What terrifies parents more than anything? The thought of their child experiencing sexual abuse. Yet this fear often prevents the very conversations that could protect our children. In this powerful episode, attachment specialist Eli Harwood joins Jordan to share essential strategies for preventing and responding to childhood sexual abuse.
This episode goes over:
• Using anatomically correct language for all body parts from infancy to normalize discussions about bodies
• Teaching body safety rules to children around ages 2.5-3
• Believing children when they disclose abuse and reassuring them they will be protected
• Building secure attachment as your strongest protection against abuse by creating open communication
• Practicing "cooperative" rather than "compliant" parenting so children feel safe defying inappropriate authority
• Continuing regular check-ins about body safety throughout childhood
Visit Eli's website for free resources and check out her Instagram @attachmentnerd for thoughtful takes on parenting and creating strong attachments with your children!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back parents.
Listen, I don't know about you,but one of the most terrifying
things to me as a parent is theidea that one of my kids might
experience sexual abuse of somenature in their lifetime, and I
know from personal experience asa young child just how
(00:23):
prevalent it is and how easilyit can happen, even in the
presence of your own parents.
I had a very close encounter asa nine-year-old girl when I was
at a hotel with my entirefamily, my two siblings, my
parents.
We were leaving the hotel andmy parents were up in the hotel
(00:45):
room getting the luggage packed.
My brother and sister had justleft the parking lot to go back
up into the room and I was stillin the parking lot putting my
bag in the back of the van andall of a sudden this man pulls
up in a nice vehicle.
He was dressed in a suit and hecalled out to me from the back
(01:07):
of the van and just said hey,I'm looking for this business
and I'm not from here.
And he stretched a map acrosshis lap out the window and
invited me over to help him kindof navigate where he was going.
Well, as a young girl I wasthinking oh, somebody's asking
my opinion.
You know I might be able tohelp them and because he looked
(01:28):
like a reputable businessman,like almost like my grandpa, I
thought this could be safe.
So I approached the car and asI did he collapsed the map and I
quickly saw that he wasexposing himself to me and he
whispered to me.
I had a couple young girls yourage like this last night and I
(01:54):
turned on my heel and ran asfast as I could back to my hotel
room.
So I escaped that.
He drove away quickly.
I was able to kind of recognizewhat the car looked like, but
had no idea what his licenseplate looked like.
We were in a different state,it was unfamiliar territory for
me, but what a blessing thatnothing happened to me.
(02:16):
So this is kind of a topicthat's near and dear to my heart
, my heart and I wanted to bringon the show an expert, someone
who has been in the field for agood amount of time and has
really taken initiative, to talkto parents about how to, number
one, prevent sexual abuse intheir kids, but also what to do
(02:37):
if it does end up happening.
So welcome to the show, EliHarwood.
Thank you, Jordan.
Love to be here with you, soglad to have you.
This is a topic that we haven'thad on our show yet, and it's
something so necessary, and so Ijust wanted to know, from your
(02:58):
perspective, what interests youabout sexual abuse and
attachment and trauma.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
So I come from a family where, if you were to put
up a Christmas tree and theornaments were going to
represent my family's story,there would be a lot of
ornaments on that tree that werearound addiction.
There'd be a lot of ornamentson that tree that would be
around mental illness and therewould be a lot of ornaments on
(03:32):
that tree around abuse and,specifically, sexual abuse.
So I am a product of many, many, many, many different
experiences of abuse and traumathat were very unresolved.
And so I came into the world,really under my mother's
leadership.
Around the time that I was nineyears old, she made a decision
(03:56):
to really shift the security inour family and went and got help
for herself and in doing that,really shifted the trajectory of
my life and our lives.
But we still had a lot offamilial baggage to unpack.
So I spent a lot of my teensand twenties unpacking my
(04:16):
family's baggage, and not asmall amount of it was related
to childhood sexual abuse Wow.
So that is kind of where mypersonal life became my
professional life.
I eventually decided I think I'mgoing to be a shrink.
I think that's what I'm goingto do, and so I went to graduate
school and became a counselorand then, for the last 17 years,
(04:37):
I've been working withindividuals and families healing
trauma, helping people learnhow to develop secure attachment
within themselves and withintheir relationships, especially
with their children, in order tohelp prevent the transmission
ongoing of generational trauma.
In that there are a fewdifferent things that families
encounter that are challengingto overcome, but I'm not sure
(05:00):
that any of them are aschallenging as childhood sexual
abuse or as common.
So and I so I'm going to we'regoing to really dig in today to
what can you do as a parent tohelp prevent abuse in the life
of your child, and what do youdo to help heal or respond to a
child that has experienced it,and what can you do if this is a
(05:23):
part of your story and yourjourney?
I really am such a therapist andI'm sure that you are this way
too, but when you were tellingyour story and you said, I'm so
blessed nothing happened.
What I thought was somethinghappened.
That's true.
You actually were sexuallyabused.
(05:43):
He was not able to physicallytouch you and I'm glad for that,
for you, and I'm glad you'reable to run away, but you
actually were exposed Likethat's exhibitionism.
He did abuse you.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
You're right and you know what.
What happened when I wastelling that story?
I've never talked about that onthe air, right?
I've told friends and you knowthis has been something that
I've discussed with my ownchildren, but I could feel the
tremor happen inside and evenafterwards.
I was planning to introduce you, I was going to give your bio
(06:21):
and I skipped over it because itaffected me in just recounting
it out loud.
Yes, how many years later,almost 40 years later?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Right, right, and yet it still has an impact.
I mean, that was a deeplyimpactful experience, and that
person was very unwell and theywere looking for someone to
overpower.
That's what that was about,right, and to shock you, he knew
exactly how to do it in a way,to get you into the most
(06:53):
innocent childlike state inorder to then create disgust on
your face, which is part of hisdemented situation that he's
never resolved.
But that experience, though notas maybe foundational and
formational as someone who's,like, ritualistically molested
(07:13):
or raped over periods of years,it still had a significant
impact.
So, one question I have for youis did you go tell your parents?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
So I ran right up to the room, into the bathroom,
locked the door, sat down inthere and just was in shock.
And my parents are like loadingup the stuff.
They're like what are you doingin there?
Come out, we've got to go.
Like come on, they had no idea.
And so they're thinking thatthis is, you know, this is just
(07:44):
my annoying child.
Yes, totally.
And so it wasn't until Ibelieve it was like later in the
day, when I was clinging to mybrother as we're walking through
the mall and he's like what isyour deal?
He's three years older than meand he's like you never care to
be by my side, especially in theshopping mall.
(08:05):
You know that I was likesomething happened.
This guy, you know, and Iremember, as I was saying,
telling him what had happenedand kind of recounting each step
.
It was just like very robotic,like he did this and then this,
and then this happened.
And then, you know.
So my parents were like well,what did he look like?
(08:25):
Well, what did the car looklike?
And I had an image of it, but Iactually don't even remember
what we did about it or if theydid anything about it or if they
could have.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
you know, they may have felt like they couldn't
right at that time.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, we were from out of town and we were going
back home, traveling across thestate, and so it was just kind
of like, oh, I'm glad nothinghappened.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
And I was thinking I wonder if the I'm glad nothing
happened came from your parents,right, so they helped you
process that trauma through thelens of nothing happened to you
as opposed to.
I'm so sorry that happened toyou.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yes, I don't know.
I think that's interesting,right Totally.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
And I know a lot of survivors who compare their
trauma to other people and say,well, at least it wasn't this,
or at least, yeah, sure I wasabused, but at least it wasn't
my father.
I know someone whose fatherabused them or um yeah, well,
they touched this part of me,but at least they didn't touch
that part of me.
Yes, you know, I would arguesexual abuse can happen with a
(09:27):
leer, with a look Like.
It can happen very subtly andin ways that make us question
whether or not we actually didexperience something that was
that yucky and violating.
And even in your story, likeyou, were exposed, like a grown
man exposed himself to you,right, um, and there's still
(09:48):
that thing.
I'm so blessed that's what yousaid.
I'm so blessed that nothinghappened.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
And all.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
I could think about was nine-year-old Jordan, and
just like I'm so sorry, honey,I'm so sorry that was.
That was really yucky andconfusing and scary.
Lori, that was.
That was really yucky andconfusing and scary.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
You're so right.
You're so right and theperspective is so different, you
know, and actually it feelsbetter to hear you say that,
like something happened, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Cause that aligns with what your body knows.
Your body knows that truth.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yes, talk about that a little bit.
How, how kids process, you knowjust just what happened and
then the language around thatand and the the contradiction
between what feels likeviolation and then what, what we
tell ourselves about that.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yes, well, this is like going to be a five hour
conversation.
Well, let me start by sayingthis when, when we think about
preventing sexual abuse, I wantyou all to hold into your heads
two facts.
One fact is we are not incontrol of what happens to our
children.
So your parents didn't fail byletting a nine-year-old be down
(10:57):
at the car, putting her bag inthe car.
In fact, that was like a greatstep of developing independence
and competency in the world.
Like nine-year-olds needchances to be independent in
spaces like that, it was not afailure on your parents' part
that they weren't watching youevery second of the day, right?
So I say that because I thinkonce we start talking about this
subject, it can it can reallyactivate us into an anxiety
(11:17):
state where we feel like we mustwatch constantly, 24, seven,
and that a good parent wouldnever let that happen to their
kid.
Um, we don't always have thatprivilege or power and our kids
do rely on other people, otheradults, um, in their world.
And your story actually isfairly unique in that it was a
stranger.
(11:37):
Most sexual abuse happens at thehands of people we know and
trust, so when we.
So that's fact one.
So fact one is we're not we'renot in control of what's
happening to our children.
And and fact two is that how weengage this topic with our
children can help to empowerthem and can help to signal to
(12:00):
other adults in their world thatwe are not the people they want
to be targeting.
Okay, while we cannot controlit and we cannot with a hundred
percent say I'm going to do allthese things and therefore my
child will never experiencesexual trauma, we can set our
children up to be resilienttowards any potential attempts
(12:22):
or actual victimizations, and wecan create a relationship where
our children can then come tous and process that and let us
know.
So that's what we're going tofocus on today.
And when you talked aboutlanguage, that's our first step.
So as soon as our babies areout of the gate, we can start
using anatomically correctlanguage to describe all of
(12:45):
their body parts.
Oh, yes.
Eyes or eyes, mouths or mouths,ears or ears, noses or noses,
vulvas or vulvas.
Vulvas have a vaginal entrance,but it's a vulva, there's a
penis, there are testicles andthere is an anus and a poop
comes out of our anus and andthese words are not dirty, they
(13:07):
are not wrong and they are notsexual, and people often get
confused by this like no, no,those are sexual body parts.
No, those are body parts.
Yes, in fact, the penis and thevulva do far more urinating
than they do anything else rightway more so in that way they're
far more about our liver andcleaning out toxins than they
(13:30):
are about sexuality.
Our most sexual body part isour brain.
So sexuality stems from arousalin the brain, and arousal in
the brain affects other bodyparts and a lot of sexual
engagement happens in thecontext of genitals, but it also
happens in the context of faces.
(13:51):
Parts are not sexual until thebrain engages in a sexually
developed, mature place.
So until puberty, until webegin to have some level of
sexuality, developing body partsare not sexual at all.
And I say that to help everyoneout there who feels really
uncomfortable saying anus, causeI still do.
(14:12):
Even saying it now it feelslike it should be bleeped out,
because it wasn't language.
My mom was a little bit aheadof the curve and so we weren't
allowed to say boob, we saidbreast, we said penis, we said
vagina, and what she knew wasthat what Mr Rogers says so
succinctly what is mentionableis manageable.
(14:35):
So if our children do not feelcomfort talking about body parts
that are usually targeted andsexual abuse, how can they
possibly bring it up to us?
We're wanting to give them thetype of vernacular that makes it
easy to talk about what's goingon.
We also do it because itsignals to predators that these
are children that are havingconversations with the grownups
(14:58):
in their world aboutuncomfortable topics.
So this is a child that islikely to say something Great.
It also makes it more likelythat criminal charges will be
successfully turned intocriminal verdicts.
So, if a child is testifyingabout sexual abuse and they say
(15:20):
and then this person touched mycookie?
There's a famous case wherethis is what the child said Well
, there's reasonable doubt andyou can't you cannot, as a jury,
convict someone of a crime whenthere's reasonable doubt, right
.
And so we want to empower ourchildren to talk about all parts
(15:40):
of their body without shame,and this is also helping them
develop healthy sexuality lateron.
You know there's the problem ofour children being sexualized
and sexually abused too early.
But there's also the problem ofour children feeling such
immense shame about sexualitythat well into their marriages
they still feel dirty when theyengage their partner in sex.
(16:02):
Right.
So we want our children to besexually free and sexually well,
which means that early on weare sending the message there is
nothing wrong, there's nothingshameful, there's nothing
embarrassing about these bodyparts in particular.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Right.
So that's step one Language.
It's all about the language.
Call it what it is people.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Anatomically correct words, yes, and if you are not
comfortable with those words,just maybe practice it in your
bathroom.
I mean, I know this soundshilarious, but literally sit in
your bathroom and go penistesticles and laugh a little and
get a little uncomfortable andthen you find yourself like I
can say toe, I can say testicle,just a body part, it's a body
part.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Eli, I have to admit, when my son was young he was
probably eight or nine we werehaving these talks with him and
he would get so red faced aboutthe word penis or vagina, and so
we had this thing where we saidhe was rolling around on the
floor in the living room andwe're like, say it three times,
(17:04):
three times, it was almost likewe were the living room and
we're like, say it three times,three times, it was almost like
we were torturing him becausewe're like we're trying to kind
of desensitize him to thislanguage.
And he laughed and he said it,and he laughed and he said it
and he laughed and he said itNow it's, it's fine, yes, right,
he's, he's comfortable, he'sfamiliar.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
That understand that.
Yeah, oh, that's, it's justwhat we call it.
Totally, it's not a bad word.
Yes, not a bad word.
These are not bad words, theseare not dirty words.
Okay, so that's your step one.
Okay, step two ideally aroundthe age of two and a half or
three, you start to teach bodysafety rules, and body safety
rules really help your childrenprocess that.
There's this other category oftouch that's different, but
that's also still hurtful.
So kids by that age alreadyknow we don't bite, we don't
(17:49):
kick, we don't hit, we don'tpunch.
They already know all thosethings.
In addition to that, we don'ttouch or look at or ask to look
at or expose parts of our bodiesthat belong under our swimsuits
to people outside of our, ofour family unit.
So, and the reason for that isthose parts can get hurt really
(18:11):
easily, which is true, I mean,on multiple levels infections,
urinary tract infections.
All those parts have moretender skin.
They could get injured moreeasily.
You know, you've ever, if you'rea boy, and you've ever, been
kicked where it counts, in thepenis?
It's really high nerve, um,bundled right.
(18:32):
So there's lots of nerves inthose areas, so pain comes more
readily.
So we're, we're helping themunderstand those are just off
limit places and we want toreally empower them to do that.
You know, the other night eventI was, I was like playing with
one of my three and a half yearolds and I kind of went and like
did like a butt pinchy thing,that's like such a parent thing.
You just they're so cute and youjust want to pinch their butt
(18:53):
and she goes mom, that's myprivate part, don't touch my
butt.
And I went oh yeah, oh my gosh,thank you for reminding me.
Good job, that's right, becausewe want them to scare off adult
predators, but we also wantthem to be able to feel really
(19:14):
empowered with their peers whomay have been abused by an adult
predator and maybe playing outsome of that behavior as they're
trying to process what happenedto them with our children.
So we're talking about it.
I set up body safety rulesevery time another kid comes
over and every time my kid goesover to another house right
before they leave, I say, okay,who wants to remind me what the
body safety rules are?
I get it fresh in their heads.
(19:36):
We go over no hitting, nobiting, no kicking, no spitting.
You know they always addsomething like no name calling.
I'm like great.
And what about the parts thatare under our swimsuits?
What about our vulvas, ourpenises, our bottoms, our anuses
?
What about that?
Are we allowed to touch thoseparts?
Do we look at those parts?
What do we do?
Nope, okay.
And then we don't look atpictures of those things either.
So if someone tries to show youa picture of some of those body
(19:58):
parts, like especially grownupbody parts that's.
That's not something they'resupposed to be doing.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
We can look at drawings and books.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
You know you can ask questions, you can look at your
own body parts, but we'rebasically trying to help prevent
pornography exposure.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yes, I appreciate that so much and I'm wondering,
you know, when you talk toparents about this and the body
safety rules, do they say like,oh, no, but I'm afraid if I
bring this up to them rightbefore they, you know, get
together with their, theirfriends, that that's going to
create more Right, you knowgreat curiosity I.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I think that I probably I'm sure you have this
too Like it's a strange thing tobe a therapist in the world.
So I think people relate to medifferently than probably they
do the average parent.
But what I usually do is I say,hey, is it cool with you If I
review the body safety rules?
And I think, because they'rerules, most people feel good
with that.
Yeah, Um, I've never had anyonesay no.
Honestly, I think most of theparents I'm around are relieved.
(20:54):
They're like what, how does shesay this?
What, how?
Speaker 1 (20:55):
do I say this Um, they're taking notes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
So and I want everyone to know that, like, the
more that we address thesethings, the less covert
curiosity our kids have to have,so the less likely they're
going to play it out versus justtalk about it with us.
Yes, ask us questions.
We're creating an open dialogue.
You know what happens with kidswho grow up in families who
(21:19):
refuse to talk about any bodyparts or any rules around sexual
abuse is they get the memo thatmom and dad don't want to talk
about this, or mom and mom, ordad and dad or whatever, like
this is not a topic that I can,that they can handle, and so
instead I'm going to take allthis curiosity I have into my
peer group.
Oh yeah, and I'm going to ask tolook under someone's skirt or
(21:41):
I'm going to ask to like, andthat's when, you know, play
comes in and that's differentthan abuse.
You know, like kids do getcurious and that happens, and I
don't think that is alwaystraumatizing to every kid.
I think it depends on the kidand the age gap and all sorts of
things.
Um, but it's still best thatthey come to us.
So we're really like, here'sthe thing.
And for your listeners to know,if you go to attachmentnerdcom,
(22:04):
um, there's a freebies sectionand I have a poster that you can
download of my body safetyrules for free.
So you can just go download it,put it up in your house, get
used to it, talk about on playdates, um, attachmentnerdcom.
So the other piece of thispuzzle is when our kids are
younger and they really can'tverbalize what's happening
(22:25):
around them or process it, or ifthey're neurodivergent in some
way where they really aren'tverbal at all.
We want to signal to anyone weleave them in their care of that
we're thinking about thesethings because an adult predator
, pedophile, is targetingchildren.
They feel they can overpowerwithout getting caught, and so
(22:46):
we want to signal to them I'mwatching.
And because we don't know whothose predators are they are
more likely to be men than women, but many women still do
assault and abuse.
Um, we want to just go aheadand cover the whole gamut, right
?
So whenever I my kids started anew school, I say something
along the lines of hey, by theway, I'm teaching all my kids
(23:10):
anatomically correct language.
I just want to make sure you'recomfortable with that.
Because they may say will youwipe my anus?
And you might look at themcross-eyed like my goodness.
Um, but the reason I teach themthat is because they are far
less likely to get targeted by apredator, because now that
predator knows that I am payingclose attention and my children
(23:32):
and I are talking about sexualabuse.
Love it, yes.
And if you have caregivers andyouth leaders and pastors I'm
using all those words becauseI've heard one too many of those
stories Grandparents, uncles,aunts, neighbors, babysitters so
they've all been warned theyare far less likely to then try
(23:54):
to covertly groom your child andabuse your child, because
you've just signaled this is arisky place to do that.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Yes, oh, such good advice.
Use the language, let them know, right, we we talk about these
things.
They may bring this up and thisis acceptable in our home.
I remember getting a phone callfrom my son's teacher when I
don't I think it was in secondgrade, and she was like, oh,
we've got a problem.
Oh, no, you know, he used theword penis and it really alarmed
(24:25):
people in the class and theother kids and I was like, well,
what were you talking about?
And she told me and it wasperfectly appropriate, he was
like on point and I said that'swhat we call this body part.
That's what it's called.
It's what it is.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
We made him roll around on the floor and say it
over and over again.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
We tried to condition him to say this, and now you're
saying it's a problem, butthat's about their discomfort.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yes, and as a caregiver, what you really want
to do is you want to be aware ofpeople that are offended like
defensive.
That's not a good sign.
Why is that person defensive?
Some people are uncomfortable,which I think is different than
being highly defensive about it.
But if someone's highlydefensive about it, that's
(25:12):
probably not a great environmentfor your kid to be in.
And maybe consider anotherenvironment if you have the
privilege and the capacity to dothat.
Totally, I would not keep mykids in a daycare with a daycare
provider who reacted negativelyto my little spiel about
anatomically correct words.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
That'd be a red flag for me.
It's like, okay, we're movingon.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
So you've.
You've taught all the language.
You've made it talkable.
Then you've taught body safetyrules.
That's great.
Now, around the age of four anda half to five, we're going to
talk directly with our childrenabout sexual abuse.
And this one is when I alwaysget pushed back because, like
periods, like I don't want themto lose their innocence.
I'm like they're not losingtheir innocence, they're gaining
(25:53):
information, and gaininginformation might be the thing
that actually prevents them fromlosing their innocence A
hundred percent.
And this conversation needs toinclude several things.
So it needs to include anunderstanding of grooming and
how grooming works.
It needs to be clear that abusecan happen from anybody, even
people we love and trust, and weneed to help them make a plan
(26:15):
for what to do if someoneattempts or succeeds at abusing.
Just like we talk to childrenabout drowning, just like we
talk to children about drowning,about water safety, we talk to
children about sexual abuse.
They are far more likely to besexual abused than they are to
drown, wow.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I never thought of that, so true that's how my
brain works.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
So so when my son was five, I had this conversation
with him and I said to him hey,I need to have an important
conversation with you.
You know how we've learned thatwe don't walk in the street
because a car could hit us andwe could end up in the hospital
and that would be not good, andwe don't jump into water that's
deeper than we can swim in,because we could get sucked
under the water and not be ableto breathe, and that would be
(26:59):
not good.
Well, there's this other thingthat can happen in the world,
where either a grownup oranother kid asks to do things to
your body that are unsafe for akid's body.
They might ask you to touchsome of their private parts.
(27:20):
They might ask you to look attheir private parts.
They may ask you to look attheir private parts.
They may ask you to show themyour private parts and they
might try to touch your privateparts.
Show you pictures of otherpeople touching private parts.
They might try to um, ask youto touch another child's private
parts, like anything thatinvolves private parts or
kissing on the mouth or any kindof uncomfortable touch.
(27:46):
Yes, this is something we callsexual abuse and we just call it
that, yes, not taking awaytheir innocence.
And the key is that we aregrounded in this conversation,
that we are not panicking and weare not overreacting as we have
this conversation, but that weare just like when we talk about
other scary things, having alevel of solemnness that they
can pick up on like, oh, this isa serious conversation that
(28:08):
we're having right now.
So good, yes.
And when, when I told my sonthat's the first time he looked
at me, he goes that's weird.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Right, he's already knows that's weird.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And I was like I know .
It's like why did they do that?
And I was like you know, yes, alot of people have really
messed up experiences when theywere kids and they just never,
ever get better and they just doit to other kids instead of
actually thinking about whathappened to them and dealing
with that.
He's like okay.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yes, and I want to underscore how, how capable our
kids are of these conversationsat five years old.
Yes, they get it, theyunderstand, they ask clarifying
questions.
They're like, yes, tell me whysomebody would want to do that.
Like they understand thedignity of their bodies and the
safety that you have provided inyour home, and so it's very
(28:58):
like they need this conversation, like tell me why that would
happen and and you know how torecognize it or what to do how
do I stand up for myself withthat person?
Does this, you know?
Yep.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
So then I explained here's what they usually do to
get you there.
So usually that person is goingto do things to put you in a
position to make it hard for youto say no.
So they might make you feelextra special, give you special
(29:31):
treats or special attention, ormake you think that, like
somehow they're an extraimportant person in your life,
so that when they ask you to doone of these things, or when
they start doing these things toyou, you feel guilty about
saying no because you feelbonded to them already.
Oh, yes, so, and and youexplain like you know, if
(29:55):
someone, if someone, gave you a,a, um, brand new stuffed animal
and it was something you reallyloved and you loved it, and
then a couple of weeks laterthey said, well, now I want to
punch you in the face because Igave you a stuffed animal.
You might feel kind of confused, like wait a minute, I'm
confused and maybe you wouldlike pause for a second and not
(30:16):
know what to say.
And then they punch you in theface and then you're like super
confused, right, and then theygive you something else and then
you think, well, maybe they'renot mad at me.
And I don't know what to do withthis.
That's how these people work.
They confuse you with kindness.
That's what grooming is.
They confuse you with kindness,or sometimes they make up lies
(30:37):
to scare you.
So they might say somethinglike if you don't do this, then
I'm going to hurt your mom anddad, right?
They might say something likeif you don't do this, then I'm
going to hurt your mom and dad,right.
And I want you to know thatthese are the type of people who
make things up.
They're the type of people thathurt kids.
So you already know thatthey're not really trustworthy
characters.
So if they say, like this badthing is going to happen, I want
you to know it's not true.
That's not what's going tohappen.
They just know that you'll that.
You don't know that, and theyknow that you're a kid and
(30:59):
they're trying to scare you sothey can get what they want from
you.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
You explain to them that these people are trying to
trick you and you're not goingto get tricked.
Yes, right, you, you're on tothem.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
You sniffed it out and this is this is exactly as
weird and as uncomfortable as itseems.
That's right.
It feels weird, because it isweird, yes, so then.
So, then we start working on aplan, and so we came up with
what do we think our plan is?
And he came up with run, yell,tell.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Run, yell tell.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
I was like that's great, run, yell, tell.
Absolutely.
So if someone starts to saysomething that makes you
uncomfortable or look at you inan uncomfortable way, you can
just run away, yell loudly sothat the people who you know can
help you will help you and thentell them what it was that
happened and made youuncomfortable.
And we identified who hispeople were at that stage of his
life, both inside my home,outside of my home, within
(31:55):
relatives that he could alwaysgo tell these people if
something happens.
Then and this is important wedid a role play and once you
hear what happened in my roleplay, you'll be like, oh my gosh
, this is so interesting howkids brains work.
So I said, okay, let's pretendthat someone says to you I'll
(32:16):
give you a hundred dollars Ifyou tickle my penis what do you?
do.
And I was expecting him,because we just had the
conversation, to say run yell,tell El Tel right.
Instead he looked at me and hegoes maybe a hundred dollars is
a lot of money.
Yes, I thought, oh my gosh.
Yes, I, I understand the valueof his intact sexual development
(32:40):
yes he doesn't understand thatbecause he hasn't sexually
developed and and so, like hejust wasn't sure, he's like
maybe that, maybe she's trickingme here Like maybe maybe a
hundred dollars is worth it,right, and so with him, I and I
have.
I come from a background ofprivilege where I really could
follow up on this offer.
So when you use your example,don't use a hundred dollars.
(33:02):
Say, what if someone offers you$10 to tickle your penis, what
do you do?
But I told him listen, anytimeanyone offers you anything to
touch your private parts, attachtheir private parts to look at
pictures of private parts, anyof that, you, whatever the offer
is, I will double it.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
So wise Kids can then in that moment be like, oh,
this is a cool stuffed animal,but I already know my mom said
she'd get me too.
Yes, um, and so I mean thisobviously can get tricky if you
are in a context where all of asudden another grandma and
grandpa are offering your kidstoys and then they come back and
like I told grandma no, causeyou'd get me too, right, and you
(33:43):
say like, no, I, I'm talkingabout if someone is trying to
hurt you by touching you orhaving you touch them or looking
at all that stuff.
So you're, you're repeating allthose things over and over so
they really have it in theirhead, and then the key is to
continue to bring it up overtime in a in a nonchalant way.
Hey, just checking in.
We had that conversation aboutsexual abuse.
(34:05):
Do you have any thoughts orquestions of any?
Anything come up?
You know, have you?
Has there been anything that'shappened that's felt like that
in the past or recently?
Yes, and then continuing overthe years.
And I would say you know, ifyou're, if you're not noticing
any concerning signs in yourchildren, like they've become
(34:26):
all of a sudden incrediblysullen and they're not talking
to you about anything.
You know that's a disturbinglike what's going on.
Let's say, your kid is actingfairly regulated and well, I
don't know, maybe every once amonth it's just like a check-in.
Hey, we haven't talked aboutsexual abuse in a while.
Has anything happened that'smade you uncomfortable?
Has anyone been creepy with youor, you know, have you heard of
anything happening to anybodyelse?
(34:47):
And most of the time they'regoing to say no, and that's
great.
But you've set the stage thatit's something they can bring to
you if and when they are ableto and ready to.
Sometimes it takes kids a whileto disclose.
Yes, kind of like what you wentthrough.
It takes a while to evenprocess what happened.
It's like what just happened.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yes, Was that?
Yes, and so I love the idea ofbringing it up, you know and
bringing it from.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
if it's a grownup, that grownup has also probably
made the child feel like it wastheir fault or it didn't really
happen.
There was probably gaslighting,you know.
So there's stuff our kids arehaving to process through Um and
that's why we continue childfeel like it was their fault or
it didn't really happen.
There was probably gaslighting,you know.
So there's stuff our kids arehaving to process through Um and
that's why we continue to bringit up because at different
developmental stages they mighthave more of an ability to talk
about it.
I know a lot of people who endup disclosing after they are in
(35:36):
a class where they learn aboutsomething like maybe they're in
junior high school and theyrealize, oh my gosh, that's what
my brother did to me.
Yes, that's that's actuallywhat my cousin tried to do to me
, um.
So I think, knowing as a parentthat we're setting up the stage
for our children to disclose tous and they may not immediately
disclose, it may take them sometime, but that we want them to
(35:57):
disclose at some point, nomatter what.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yes and Eli, I don't know if you've had I'm sure
you've had this experience inyour practice where you have an
adult client come to you andthey say you know, when you're
asking about their sexual abusehistory, was that something that
you experienced?
They, they say no one everbelieved me.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yes, I've had it one too many times.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Yes, and they didn't believe me that.
No one thought I was tellingthe truth.
They thought I was trying toget back at uncle Randy or
whatever, and so speak to that alittle bit.
I mean, if somebody, if yourchild, tells you that something
happened to them and it's yourbrother that did it to him, or
your husband's you know aunt orwhatever, yes, what, how, how
(36:42):
should you respond to them sothat they will continue talking
about it versus you knowshutting?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
it down.
So number one, that's we.
The reason I introduced andsaid we aren't in control of
making sure this doesn't happenwe're doing what we can to
prevent it, but we're not underthe delusion that we are in
control of making sure isbecause I think a lot of parents
in that moment are so full ofshame that, rather than
processing the grief, they theyjust come up with a different
(37:13):
narrative.
Well, this can't be that likecause.
They don't want to deal with itbecause it means they've failed
.
So we want to come to ourchildren with, with the
acceptance that they mayexperience this in the world.
One in three girls, one in sixboys, by the time they're 18.
Wow, and we've all witnessed theMe Too movement.
How many women have beensexually assaulted, sexually
(37:34):
abused, raped in adulthood aswell?
Like, the likelihood is, ourchildren will experience some
form of sexual violence in theirlifetime, and so we need to be
prepared to hold that travestyand tragedy with them, which
means we do need to believe them.
So if, in the future, mychildren come to me and say, mom
, this happened, my firstresponse is going to be I'm so
(37:55):
sorry, tell me what you rememberor tell me when.
Just very gently and openlyreceptive to them, telling the
story in that moment, and theymay not tell you a lot Not first
time, I might've just taken somuch courage to say it at all
that then they're like I don'twant to talk about it anymore.
Yes, and then our response isokay, we don't have to talk
(38:15):
right now.
We will figure this out, but wedon't talk right now.
And then our next line ofcommunication is I'm going to do
everything I can to make surethat that never happens again.
So that they hear that, Athey're believed, and they're
believed so much that B we aregoing to intervene in some way,
(38:35):
shape or form.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yes, one of the things that I heard you know
from clients is is that you knowwhen their kids come to
disclose that they have beenabused by a relative, someone
close to them, you know, in thehome they say you know, I'm
going to tell you this, but youcan't tell anyone, because I
don't want yes, you know uncleJoe to get in trouble and I
(38:57):
don't want him to go away orsomething.
I don't want something bad tohappen to his family because
he's going to go to jail, right.
And so then as a parent, you'reput in a position where it's
like, oh no, he's trusting in meor she's trusting in me, and so
what do I do about this?
So speak to that a little bit.
What advice would you give aparent in that situation?
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Okay.
So let's say they say beforethey disclose I want to tell you
something, but you have topromise not to tell anyone what
close I want to tell yousomething, but you have to
promise not to tell anyone.
What I want you to do is sayyou can tell me anything and no
matter what you tell me, I'mgoing to make sure that you are
safe, that we are safe, thateverybody in the situation is
safe.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
So you're not promising, you're not saying I'm
not going to tell anyone, butyou are reassuring what the fear
is underneath that.
Underneath that fear is,someone will get hurt.
Yes, which is another reason Ilike to tell parents please
don't do the shotgun approach toprotection.
Please don't tell your childrenIf anyone ever hurts you, I'm
going to send them to the finefarm.
If anybody ever hurts you, I'mgoing to take them out back and
(39:54):
teach them a lesson.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Don't do that, because now your children are
set up to protect you instead ofdisclosing to you so they won't
tell you because they're afraidyou're going to lose your
nutter and end up in jail.
Oh, that is so good.
Yes, do not.
Do not pre-tell them whatyou're, how you're going to hurt
the person if they get hurt bythem.
Ooh that's good, good reminder,that doesn't make children feel
protected.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
That makes children.
It adds to the pile of terror.
Yes, what makes children feelprotected is, if something ever
happens to you, I will believeyou and I will make sure it
stops, and then I will help youget the healing that you need to
get through it.
We will get through it together.
Yes, so that's.
The next message is this is notgoing to happen anymore and
(40:36):
we're going to get through.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
This message is this is not going to happen anymore
and we're going to get throughthis.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
And then you know your job is to go and go to your
village, to your friends andfamily members, partners,
whoever it is in your world thatcan help you grieve, because
it's.
It is not happening to you, butit is happening to you.
Being the parent of a childwho's experiencing trauma is is
a nightmare.
So you go to your people andyou process and you get wise
(41:00):
counsel from therapists, fromsupports, and you get connected
to other grownups that are goingto help you figure out how to
help your child through this.
And it does get messy, you knowlike.
So what?
If so, this scenario happens waytoo often is that when a
sibling, an older siblingusually a boy, not always a boy
(41:20):
assaults um a younger sibling,and so the younger sibling
discloses to and your brainfreezes because you were only
prepared to deal with somepsychopathic pedophile and you
were going to just call the copsand end their life, their life
as they knew it, and now it'syour other child.
Oh, so different.
It's so different and it'sunfortunately not uncommon.
(41:44):
33% of all sexual abuse happensfrom child to child.
I believe, that 80% of sexualabuse happens at the hands of
someone we know and trust.
So you know, like I said, youwere in a small percentage of
people that experienced sexualabuse outside of those contexts.
But so if, if that's thesituation, and one sibling to
the next, you you're going tohave to do a lot of different
(42:07):
forms of investing.
So, first of all, you'recommunicating to the younger
sibling I'm so proud of you fortelling me that was so brave.
And they're like is Danny goingto get in trouble?
And you're like Danny is goingto get help.
We are going to make sure thatwhatever's going on with Danny
gets what it needs, but he isnot going to be able to do that
to you again.
Yes, this is this won't happenagain.
(42:28):
I'm so proud of you.
And then you're going to have alot of complexity and this is
why you need to have aprofessional in your corner if
this has occurred in your life,and I know a lot of people get
freaked out because what if CPSgets called?
First of all, I want everyoneto know that CPS very rarely
takes kids out of homes.
They don't want to take yourkid out of your home.
They don't want to pay to takeyour kid out of your home.
(42:49):
They're really only going totake kids out of homes where
caregivers are truly neglectfuland are truly abusive.
Yes, so even if CPS gets called, what that will actually likely
unlock in your life is moreresources.
Yes, agreed.
If they don't, they don't, butif they do so if you're sharing
(43:11):
with a therapist hey, this iswhat my child told me that their
sibling was touching theirprivate parts or having them.
Um, this is a specific scenario.
I've worked with a siblingsexual abuse.
An older sibling was having itin their sibling.
Take all their clothes off,take a shower and like do
gymnastics moves in the shower.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Okay, I haven't heard that one before, but this
things happen.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
That's right.
So you know this is what'shappened and you're you're
telling a therapist like this iswhat's happened.
You want the therapist to helpyou really evaluate and make
sure that's all that hashappened.
Not that that isn't in itselftraumatic, confusing,
disorienting and a form oftrauma, but that we want to make
sure there's not other stuffgoing on, Like what's the full
extent of this, um?
(43:55):
And then we want to make surethat we know what it is that's
motivating that older child.
Is this curiosity, right?
So, again, maybe we've raisedour children not talking about
these things because we weretold they were bad and scary and
we thought we weren't supposedto and so we didn't.
And so now we have an11-year-old boy in the home
who's very curious about bodiesand is like well, my sister has
(44:18):
a body and I want to see what itlooks like, and so they're
trying, you know, like, is itmotivated by curiosity or has
this child been exposed topornography early?
Have they had their own traumafrom somebody else?
Another child or anothergrownup?
We're really wanting toevaluate what's going on.
Another child or anothergrownup?
(44:39):
We're really wanting toevaluate what's going on, yes,
and then we're going toestablish really clear rules
about you know when and wherethese two kids, or all of our
kids, are to be alone with eachother.
We're going to make sure we'retalking about sexual abuse.
We're going to have familytherapy so that our children
don't have to have the trauma ofbeing dropped and ignored along
with the trauma of havingexperienced some form of sexual
(45:01):
violation.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yes, because I think that I think the common response
for parents, when they get soshocked that this has happened,
is separate them.
You've got to go over there.
You're going to have to go tograndma's for a few weeks.
I can tell we sort this out,and so I like your approach of
saying like we're going to healthis together, we're going to
get help together.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yeah, you know and I think it really depends Right.
So like this is another caseI've been working on for a long
time, but the older brother was15 and the daughter was 12 and
he raped her, yeah, so like inthat context um, you know, this
daughter never told her parentsbecause she really sensed that
(45:43):
they wouldn't know what to do.
That was her sense.
Um, and so didn't, didn't evenlike fully remember until
adulthood, until she couldprocess it later on, Um, but if
a child is disclosing like aviolent level of assault from a
sibling, then actually it mightbe appropriate.
But we want to do that again.
We want to do this withconfidence and love.
(46:03):
Hey, what, what happened therewas really not OK.
And so we're going to have tohave you stay at grandma's Dad's
going to go with you so thatyou're not alone.
But we're going to take a fewdays and maybe it's during those
few days that you're gettingprofessional help and assessment
to figure out all of the insand outs of what's happened.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
The goal is not to ruin the life of the child who
has offended, because why arethey offending Exactly?
They're not okay, they're notokay.
But it is to get them theresources and help they need in
hopes that they can heal andrecover and move into a
different zone.
I mean, this is messy, messy,messy business no doubt this is
which is why I think so many ofus would prefer to just never
(46:45):
talk about it Like that onehappened to me.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Right, but we have to talk about it, because the more
we talk about it in our circles, in our communities, the more
common this feels like, yeah,body safety, you know, just like
bicycle safety, swimming safety, the more common this feels
like, yeah, body safety, youknow, just like bicycle safety,
swimming safety.
You're right.
It's just we need to make itmore of a our common vernacular
so that we can be in eachother's corners, because I've
witnessed so many times whereparents feel so ashamed.
(47:12):
It's like, no, nobody knows inour family that this happened.
Nobody not, not my sister, notmy parents I couldn't even bear
to tell my spouse or somethingand it's like, guys, yeah, that
doesn't make it better.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
That doesn't create healing for anybody.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Absolutely not.
So I I'm so grateful thatyou're out there, you're on
social media, you're on yourwebsite, attachmentnerdcom.
You are counseling people.
You have retreats for parentsto learn more about this and
understand their own attachmentpatterns and identify their own
areas of trauma in their past toreally make this something that
(47:49):
we can connect with, not beafraid of, but instead be
prepared for.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Yes, yes, yes.
Well, and the other note I wanteveryone to have is that the
most powerful thing we do toprotect our children in the
world is to cultivate the typeof secure attachment with them
that lends to them wanting torun to our arms when things feel
scary and overwhelming, likethat piece of the puzzle is so
massive, and that's why I reallydo push back on behavioral type
(48:22):
parenting approaches wherewe're trying to punish our
children into obedience or we'retrying to motivate them through
negative consequences.
It messes with the attachmentrelationship.
We need to have boundaries, weneed to have limits.
We need to teach our childrenwhat's okay and not okay in
social behavior, but we don'thave to hurt them in order for
(48:44):
them to learn, and I want us allto remember that.
You know when we're in a new joband we're learning something
new.
We don't need the people whoare training us to threaten to
dock our pay if we don't do itright the first, second, third
or fourth time.
We need them to give us cluesand guides and ideas.
Right, and that's notpermissive.
(49:05):
Permissive is just ignoring andnot helping a child to develop.
But we can be connectedteachers and guides so that when
the big bad stuff comes, ourchildren are more likely to come
tell us so that we can helpthem, so that we can prevent it
from being a years longencounter and instead it be.
You know, a creepy feeling inthe parking lot.
(49:27):
You know, yes, that's we.
We, we want our children to beable to have resilience, and
resilience comes from connection.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Yes, you're so right.
I you know.
I was talking about my ownexperience that I shared earlier
with my parents and my parentssaid you know, our parents never
talked about this stuff with us, so why would they talk to us
about this?
Right, it's like they'rethinking like, well, we just
that wasn't common talk aroundour house, like nobody shared
(49:56):
about that.
You kind of heard about it frompeople who had already
experienced something bad.
But you know what you're sayingis lay the foundation early
with your kids.
Four to five, make this commontalk.
Don't scare them every timethey do something wrong by
punishing them and onlyrewarding, like pure obedience,
(50:18):
without questioning anything.
Right, because that createsfear and they're just obeying
because they're afraid of you.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
Yeah, that's compliance.
We want our children to becooperative, but not compliant,
because we all know that notevery person in power in the
world is wielding their powerwith kindness and grace and
creativity Right, and so, likethere are places we want our
children to defy authority yes,and and, and we definitely want
(50:45):
them to defy the authority of agrownup who's trying to sexually
abuse them and grooming them,and we can't teach them that
skill if we're also teachingthem blind obedience.
So we have to think inrelational terms.
I have so much more information.
There's a whole free webinar onsexual abuse prevention where I
go even more in depth througheach of the stages and how you
(51:08):
think about that and I giveexamples.
You can kind of watch me liketalk to a pretend baby about
their body parts et cetera, sothat you can get kind of deeper,
more details on this preventionprocess, as well as heaps and
heaps and heaps of informationin my membership where you can
go watch videos on how to staycalm when your child's upset or
(51:32):
how to help you and your partnerget on the same page about
parenting kind of all the thingsentailed in cultivating secure
attachment for our kids and thebiggest piece of what we know
from the data, of how we offerour children secure attachment
experiences with us, is abouthave we done our own work about
our own attachment experiences?
So have we reflected on what weexperienced growing up with our
(51:56):
caregivers?
Have we grieved any parts ofthat that were insecure or
painful?
And then we can start to applyand grow and relate to our kids
in more secure ways.
So that's what my book is.
It's not a parenting book, it'sactually to help you go back and
learn what happened to you, howit impacted you.
(52:20):
There's a section that likereferences sexual abuse, because
that can be a piece of yourattachment puzzle If you were
sexually abused and then youshut down and you stopped going
to your parents about anythingthat affected your attachment
pattern.
And then a whole section onkind of what you developed as
coping skills and then how canyou now learn to rely securely
on the other adults in your life?
(52:40):
So how can you build secureattachment relationships that
co-regulate and support you?
And if because if we aren'tdoing that, we can't give our
kids what they need we're justgoing to get overstimulated,
overtired, we're going to bepissy, we're going to revert
back to some of those patternsthat we learned when we were
little.
Um, so that's, that is the like.
Last resource I have is my book, securely attached.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
I love, I love, I love it and it's beautifully
designed.
You have such a unique lookabout yourself, about your
website, attachmentnerdcom, yourbook.
When did it come?
Speaker 2 (53:14):
out.
It's recent.
It actually comes out November21st, so we're 12 days away.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Yes, Exciting you guys.
You have to get a copy.
I've linked the Amazon.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
You know, amazon purchase link right here in the
show notes.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
Yes, so you'll have no problem getting it.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
And right now, anyone who pre-orders.
So if you order it in the next12 days, um, or if you hear this
podcast and you order it, causemaybe it'll be after order date
, I don't know Okay, well, I'lljust say that.
So anyone who orders my bookcan, um, send that receipt to
hello at attachment nerdcom, andjust let me know that you heard
me here on this podcast and Iwill send you a code for 50% off
(53:54):
the membership.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
You're blessing our parent community.
Okay, so they buy the book,send you a copy of the receipt
that they bought the book, andthen they get 50% off of your
membership.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
Yes, and there are monthly, quarterly and yearly
options, so you can get quite abit off.
If you link on the yearly one,it's quite a lot of money off
bit off.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
if you link on the yearly one, it's quite a lot of
money off.
Yes, and if you're new to Eliand her message and her, you
know her brand, attachment nerd,which I just love because I
don't know that you're a nerd,but you definitely have you
bring the brains and the sciencebehind all this attachment.
You know theory and and make itso practical for people.
But if you're not ready to jumpinto a membership, follow her
(54:43):
on Instagram please, tiktok.
She's got a billion videosshort reels, long webinars, like
PDFs, like downloadableresources, free resources that
go with the video.
So I'm a very visually orientedperson.
Like.
I have to hear it.
But then I want, like aworksheet or a printable that I
can write on, and you've gotthem both.
(55:04):
So jam packed, jam packed withresources and attachment nerd.
Yes, yes, so blessed to haveyou on our show.
You're always welcome back onthe families of character show.
There's so much that you haveto offer.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
I loved being here.
Thank you for having me andthank you for doing what you're
doing for families.
It's such a gift.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Absolutely, guys.
I just want to point you toanother resource so you know
that if you're a part of ourcommunity the thrive community
by families of character onFacebook, that's our private
community that we have launchedsome parent coaching.
So we just kicked off our firstsession last night and it was
(55:44):
fire.
People are really wanting toshare, to dig in, to identify
the things that are going wellin their family and also to just
have a safe space to talk aboutthings that maybe they're not
so confident about when it comesto parenting kids and some of
(56:05):
these topics just like sexualabuse, and so that is a new
service that we're offering isparent coaching.
So, yes, go to our website,families of charactercom, hit
the shop button and you will beable to see whatever coaching
options we have going oncurrently and get notified of
the new ones.
Also, when this episodelaunched, you got an email in
(56:28):
your inbox.
So we send out an email everyTuesday and so you can sign up
for our newsletter at familiesof charactercom Just hit the
subscribe button up top.
And if you're listening to thison audio, but you want to see
what we look like talking backand forth, and this gal's style
(56:49):
her rock and earrings and herlipstick, which is her signature
.
Look go to YouTube and check usout.
It's on our YouTube channel,families of Character, and you
can watch there.
So again, thank you very much,eli, for sharing and blessing
our community with suchpractical resources and giving
(57:09):
us hope about prevention andintervention with sexual abuse.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
Thank you for having me Jordan, yes.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
Okay, guys, we'll catch you on another episode
real soon.
Welcome back parents.
Listen, I don't know about you,but one of the most terrifying
things to me as a parent is theidea that one of my kids might
experience sexual abuse of somenature in their lifetime, and I
know from personal experience asa young child just how
(00:23):
prevalent it is and how easilyit can happen, even in the
presence of your own parents.
I had a very close encounter asa nine-year-old girl when I was
at a hotel with my entirefamily, my two siblings, my
parents.
We were leaving the hotel andmy parents were up in the hotel
(00:45):
room getting the luggage packed.
My brother and sister had justleft the parking lot to go back
up into the room and I was stillin the parking lot putting my
bag in the back of the van andall of a sudden this man pulls
up in a nice vehicle.
He was dressed in a suit and hecalled out to me from the back
(01:07):
of the van and just said hey,I'm looking for this business
and I'm not from here.
And he stretched a map acrosshis lap out the window and
invited me over to help him kindof navigate where he was going.
Well, as a young girl I wasthinking oh, somebody's asking
my opinion.
You know I might be able tohelp them and because he looked
(01:28):
like a reputable businessman,like almost like my grandpa, I
thought this could be safe.
So I approached the car and asI did he collapsed the map and I
quickly saw that he wasexposing himself to me and he
whispered to me.
I had a couple young girls yourage like this last night and I
(01:54):
turned on my heel and ran asfast as I could back to my hotel
room.
So I escaped that.
He drove away quickly.
I was able to kind of recognizewhat the car looked like, but
had no idea what his licenseplate looked like.
We were in a different state,it was unfamiliar territory for
me, but what a blessing thatnothing happened to me.
(02:16):
So this is kind of a topicthat's near and dear to my heart
, my heart and I wanted to bringon the show an expert, someone
who has been in the field for agood amount of time and has
really taken initiative, to talkto parents about how to, number
one, prevent sexual abuse intheir kids, but also what to do
(02:37):
if it does end up happening.
So welcome to the show, EliHarwood.
Thank you, Jordan.
Love to be here with you, soglad to have you.
This is a topic that we haven'thad on our show yet, and it's
something so necessary, and so Ijust wanted to know, from your
(02:58):
perspective, what interests youabout sexual abuse and
attachment and trauma.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
So I come from a family where, if you were to put
up a Christmas tree and theornaments were going to
represent my family's story,there would be a lot of
ornaments on that tree that werearound addiction.
There'd be a lot of ornamentson that tree that would be
around mental illness and therewould be a lot of ornaments on
(03:32):
that tree around abuse and,specifically, sexual abuse.
So I am a product of many, many, many, many different
experiences of abuse and traumathat were very unresolved.
And so I came into the world,really under my mother's
leadership.
Around the time that I was nineyears old, she made a decision
(03:56):
to really shift the security inour family and went and got help
for herself and in doing that,really shifted the trajectory of
my life and our lives.
But we still had a lot offamilial baggage to unpack.
So I spent a lot of my teensand twenties unpacking my
(04:16):
family's baggage, and not asmall amount of it was related
to childhood sexual abuse Wow.
So that is kind of where mypersonal life became my
professional life.
I eventually decided I think I'mgoing to be a shrink.
I think that's what I'm goingto do, and so I went to graduate
school and became a counselorand then, for the last 17 years,
(04:37):
I've been working withindividuals and families healing
trauma, helping people learnhow to develop secure attachment
within themselves and withintheir relationships, especially
with their children, in order tohelp prevent the transmission
ongoing of generational trauma.
In that there are a fewdifferent things that families
encounter that are challengingto overcome, but I'm not sure
(05:00):
that any of them are aschallenging as childhood sexual
abuse or as common.
So and I so I'm going to we'regoing to really dig in today to
what can you do as a parent tohelp prevent abuse in the life
of your child, and what do youdo to help heal or respond to a
child that has experienced it,and what can you do if this is a
(05:23):
part of your story and yourjourney?
I really am such a therapist andI'm sure that you are this way
too, but when you were tellingyour story and you said, I'm so
blessed nothing happened.
What I thought was somethinghappened.
That's true.
You actually were sexuallyabused.
(05:43):
He was not able to physicallytouch you and I'm glad for that,
for you, and I'm glad you'reable to run away, but you
actually were exposed Likethat's exhibitionism.
He did abuse you.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
You're right and you know what.
What happened when I wastelling that story?
I've never talked about that onthe air, right?
I've told friends and you knowthis has been something that
I've discussed with my ownchildren, but I could feel the
tremor happen inside and evenafterwards.
I was planning to introduce you, I was going to give your bio
(06:21):
and I skipped over it because itaffected me in just recounting
it out loud.
Yes, how many years later,almost 40 years later?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Right, right, and yet it still has an impact.
I mean, that was a deeplyimpactful experience, and that
person was very unwell and theywere looking for someone to
overpower.
That's what that was about,right, and to shock you, he knew
exactly how to do it in a way,to get you into the most
(06:53):
innocent childlike state inorder to then create disgust on
your face, which is part of hisdemented situation that he's
never resolved.
But that experience, though notas maybe foundational and
formational as someone who's,like, ritualistically molested
(07:13):
or raped over periods of years,it still had a significant
impact.
So, one question I have for youis did you go tell your parents?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
So I ran right up to the room, into the bathroom,
locked the door, sat down inthere and just was in shock.
And my parents are like loadingup the stuff.
They're like what are you doingin there?
Come out, we've got to go.
Like come on, they had no idea.
And so they're thinking thatthis is, you know, this is just
(07:44):
my annoying child.
Yes, totally.
And so it wasn't until Ibelieve it was like later in the
day, when I was clinging to mybrother as we're walking through
the mall and he's like what isyour deal?
He's three years older than meand he's like you never care to
be by my side, especially in theshopping mall.
(08:05):
You know that I was likesomething happened.
This guy, you know, and Iremember, as I was saying,
telling him what had happenedand kind of recounting each step
.
It was just like very robotic,like he did this and then this,
and then this happened.
And then, you know.
So my parents were like well,what did he look like?
(08:25):
Well, what did the car looklike?
And I had an image of it, but Iactually don't even remember
what we did about it or if theydid anything about it or if they
could have.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
you know, they may have felt like they couldn't
right at that time.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, we were from out of town and we were going
back home, traveling across thestate, and so it was just kind
of like, oh, I'm glad nothinghappened.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
And I was thinking I wonder if the I'm glad nothing
happened came from your parents,right, so they helped you
process that trauma through thelens of nothing happened to you
as opposed to.
I'm so sorry that happened toyou.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yes, I don't know.
I think that's interesting,right Totally.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
And I know a lot of survivors who compare their
trauma to other people and say,well, at least it wasn't this,
or at least, yeah, sure I wasabused, but at least it wasn't
my father.
I know someone whose fatherabused them or um yeah, well,
they touched this part of me,but at least they didn't touch
that part of me.
Yes, you know, I would arguesexual abuse can happen with a
(09:27):
leer, with a look Like.
It can happen very subtly andin ways that make us question
whether or not we actually didexperience something that was
that yucky and violating.
And even in your story, likeyou, were exposed, like a grown
man exposed himself to you,right, um, and there's still
(09:48):
that thing.
I'm so blessed that's what yousaid.
I'm so blessed that nothinghappened.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
And all.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
I could think about was nine-year-old Jordan, and
just like I'm so sorry, honey,I'm so sorry that was.
That was really yucky andconfusing and scary.
Lori, that was.
That was really yucky andconfusing and scary.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
You're so right.
You're so right and theperspective is so different, you
know, and actually it feelsbetter to hear you say that,
like something happened, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Cause that aligns with what your body knows.
Your body knows that truth.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yes, talk about that a little bit.
How, how kids process, you knowjust just what happened and
then the language around thatand and the the contradiction
between what feels likeviolation and then what, what we
tell ourselves about that.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yes, well, this is like going to be a five hour
conversation.
Well, let me start by sayingthis when, when we think about
preventing sexual abuse, I wantyou all to hold into your heads
two facts.
One fact is we are not incontrol of what happens to our
children.
So your parents didn't fail byletting a nine-year-old be down
(10:57):
at the car, putting her bag inthe car.
In fact, that was like a greatstep of developing independence
and competency in the world.
Like nine-year-olds needchances to be independent in
spaces like that, it was not afailure on your parents' part
that they weren't watching youevery second of the day, right?
So I say that because I thinkonce we start talking about this
subject, it can it can reallyactivate us into an anxiety
(11:17):
state where we feel like we mustwatch constantly, 24, seven,
and that a good parent wouldnever let that happen to their
kid.
Um, we don't always have thatprivilege or power and our kids
do rely on other people, otheradults, um, in their world.
And your story actually isfairly unique in that it was a
stranger.
(11:37):
Most sexual abuse happens at thehands of people we know and
trust, so when we.
So that's fact one.
So fact one is we're not we'renot in control of what's
happening to our children.
And and fact two is that how weengage this topic with our
children can help to empowerthem and can help to signal to
(12:00):
other adults in their world thatwe are not the people they want
to be targeting.
Okay, while we cannot controlit and we cannot with a hundred
percent say I'm going to do allthese things and therefore my
child will never experiencesexual trauma, we can set our
children up to be resilienttowards any potential attempts
(12:22):
or actual victimizations, and wecan create a relationship where
our children can then come tous and process that and let us
know.
So that's what we're going tofocus on today.
And when you talked aboutlanguage, that's our first step.
So as soon as our babies areout of the gate, we can start
using anatomically correctlanguage to describe all of
(12:45):
their body parts.
Oh, yes.
Eyes or eyes, mouths or mouths,ears or ears, noses or noses,
vulvas or vulvas.
Vulvas have a vaginal entrance,but it's a vulva, there's a
penis, there are testicles andthere is an anus and a poop
comes out of our anus and andthese words are not dirty, they
(13:07):
are not wrong and they are notsexual, and people often get
confused by this like no, no,those are sexual body parts.
No, those are body parts.
Yes, in fact, the penis and thevulva do far more urinating
than they do anything else rightway more so in that way they're
far more about our liver andcleaning out toxins than they
(13:30):
are about sexuality.
Our most sexual body part isour brain.
So sexuality stems from arousalin the brain, and arousal in
the brain affects other bodyparts and a lot of sexual
engagement happens in thecontext of genitals, but it also
happens in the context of faces.
(13:51):
Parts are not sexual until thebrain engages in a sexually
developed, mature place.
So until puberty, until webegin to have some level of
sexuality, developing body partsare not sexual at all.
And I say that to help everyoneout there who feels really
uncomfortable saying anus, causeI still do.
(14:12):
Even saying it now it feelslike it should be bleeped out,
because it wasn't language.
My mom was a little bit aheadof the curve and so we weren't
allowed to say boob, we saidbreast, we said penis, we said
vagina, and what she knew wasthat what Mr Rogers says so
succinctly what is mentionableis manageable.
(14:35):
So if our children do not feelcomfort talking about body parts
that are usually targeted andsexual abuse, how can they
possibly bring it up to us?
We're wanting to give them thetype of vernacular that makes it
easy to talk about what's goingon.
We also do it because itsignals to predators that these
are children that are havingconversations with the grownups
(14:58):
in their world aboutuncomfortable topics.
So this is a child that islikely to say something Great.
It also makes it more likelythat criminal charges will be
successfully turned intocriminal verdicts.
So, if a child is testifyingabout sexual abuse and they say
(15:20):
and then this person touched mycookie?
There's a famous case wherethis is what the child said Well
, there's reasonable doubt andyou can't you cannot, as a jury,
convict someone of a crime whenthere's reasonable doubt, right
.
And so we want to empower ourchildren to talk about all parts
(15:40):
of their body without shame,and this is also helping them
develop healthy sexuality lateron.
You know there's the problem ofour children being sexualized
and sexually abused too early.
But there's also the problem ofour children feeling such
immense shame about sexualitythat well into their marriages
they still feel dirty when theyengage their partner in sex.
(16:02):
Right.
So we want our children to besexually free and sexually well,
which means that early on weare sending the message there is
nothing wrong, there's nothingshameful, there's nothing
embarrassing about these bodyparts in particular.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Right.
So that's step one Language.
It's all about the language.
Call it what it is people.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Anatomically correct words, yes, and if you are not
comfortable with those words,just maybe practice it in your
bathroom.
I mean, I know this soundshilarious, but literally sit in
your bathroom and go penistesticles and laugh a little and
get a little uncomfortable andthen you find yourself like I
can say toe, I can say testicle,just a body part, it's a body
part.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Eli, I have to admit, when my son was young he was
probably eight or nine we werehaving these talks with him and
he would get so red faced aboutthe word penis or vagina, and so
we had this thing where we saidhe was rolling around on the
floor in the living room andwe're like, say it three times,
(17:04):
three times, it was almost likewe were the living room and
we're like, say it three times,three times, it was almost like
we were torturing him becausewe're like we're trying to kind
of desensitize him to thislanguage.
And he laughed and he said it,and he laughed and he said it
and he laughed and he said itNow it's, it's fine, yes, right,
he's, he's comfortable, he'sfamiliar.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
That understand that.
Yeah, oh, that's, it's justwhat we call it.
Totally, it's not a bad word.
Yes, not a bad word.
These are not bad words, theseare not dirty words.
Okay, so that's your step one.
Okay, step two ideally aroundthe age of two and a half or
three, you start to teach bodysafety rules, and body safety
rules really help your childrenprocess that.
There's this other category oftouch that's different, but
that's also still hurtful.
So kids by that age alreadyknow we don't bite, we don't
(17:49):
kick, we don't hit, we don'tpunch.
They already know all thosethings.
In addition to that, we don'ttouch or look at or ask to look
at or expose parts of our bodiesthat belong under our swimsuits
to people outside of our, ofour family unit.
So, and the reason for that isthose parts can get hurt really
(18:11):
easily, which is true, I mean,on multiple levels infections,
urinary tract infections.
All those parts have moretender skin.
They could get injured moreeasily.
You know, you've ever, if you'rea boy, and you've ever, been
kicked where it counts, in thepenis?
It's really high nerve, um,bundled right.
(18:32):
So there's lots of nerves inthose areas, so pain comes more
readily.
So we're, we're helping themunderstand those are just off
limit places and we want toreally empower them to do that.
You know, the other night eventI was, I was like playing with
one of my three and a half yearolds and I kind of went and like
did like a butt pinchy thing,that's like such a parent thing.
You just they're so cute and youjust want to pinch their butt
(18:53):
and she goes mom, that's myprivate part, don't touch my
butt.
And I went oh yeah, oh my gosh,thank you for reminding me.
Good job, that's right, becausewe want them to scare off adult
predators, but we also wantthem to be able to feel really
(19:14):
empowered with their peers whomay have been abused by an adult
predator and maybe playing outsome of that behavior as they're
trying to process what happenedto them with our children.
So we're talking about it.
I set up body safety rulesevery time another kid comes
over and every time my kid goesover to another house right
before they leave, I say, okay,who wants to remind me what the
body safety rules are?
I get it fresh in their heads.
(19:36):
We go over no hitting, nobiting, no kicking, no spitting.
You know they always addsomething like no name calling.
I'm like great.
And what about the parts thatare under our swimsuits?
What about our vulvas, ourpenises, our bottoms, our anuses
?
What about that?
Are we allowed to touch thoseparts?
Do we look at those parts?
What do we do?
Nope, okay.
And then we don't look atpictures of those things either.
So if someone tries to show youa picture of some of those body
(19:58):
parts, like especially grownupbody parts that's.
That's not something they'resupposed to be doing.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
We can look at drawings and books.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
You know you can ask questions, you can look at your
own body parts, but we'rebasically trying to help prevent
pornography exposure.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yes, I appreciate that so much and I'm wondering,
you know, when you talk toparents about this and the body
safety rules, do they say like,oh, no, but I'm afraid if I
bring this up to them rightbefore they, you know, get
together with their, theirfriends, that that's going to
create more Right, you knowgreat curiosity I.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I think that I probably I'm sure you have this
too Like it's a strange thing tobe a therapist in the world.
So I think people relate to medifferently than probably they
do the average parent.
But what I usually do is I say,hey, is it cool with you If I
review the body safety rules?
And I think, because they'rerules, most people feel good
with that.
Yeah, Um, I've never had anyonesay no.
Honestly, I think most of theparents I'm around are relieved.
(20:54):
They're like what, how does shesay this?
What, how?
Speaker 1 (20:55):
do I say this Um, they're taking notes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
So and I want everyone to know that, like, the
more that we address thesethings, the less covert
curiosity our kids have to have,so the less likely they're
going to play it out versus justtalk about it with us.
Yes, ask us questions.
We're creating an open dialogue.
You know what happens with kidswho grow up in families who
(21:19):
refuse to talk about any bodyparts or any rules around sexual
abuse is they get the memo thatmom and dad don't want to talk
about this, or mom and mom, ordad and dad or whatever, like
this is not a topic that I can,that they can handle, and so
instead I'm going to take allthis curiosity I have into my
peer group.
Oh yeah, and I'm going to ask tolook under someone's skirt or
(21:41):
I'm going to ask to like, andthat's when, you know, play
comes in and that's differentthan abuse.
You know, like kids do getcurious and that happens, and I
don't think that is alwaystraumatizing to every kid.
I think it depends on the kidand the age gap and all sorts of
things.
Um, but it's still best thatthey come to us.
So we're really like, here'sthe thing.
And for your listeners to know,if you go to attachmentnerdcom,
(22:04):
um, there's a freebies sectionand I have a poster that you can
download of my body safetyrules for free.
So you can just go download it,put it up in your house, get
used to it, talk about on playdates, um, attachmentnerdcom.
So the other piece of thispuzzle is when our kids are
younger and they really can'tverbalize what's happening
(22:25):
around them or process it, or ifthey're neurodivergent in some
way where they really aren'tverbal at all.
We want to signal to anyone weleave them in their care of that
we're thinking about thesethings because an adult predator
, pedophile, is targetingchildren.
They feel they can overpowerwithout getting caught, and so
(22:46):
we want to signal to them I'mwatching.
And because we don't know whothose predators are they are
more likely to be men than women, but many women still do
assault and abuse.
Um, we want to just go aheadand cover the whole gamut, right
?
So whenever I my kids started anew school, I say something
along the lines of hey, by theway, I'm teaching all my kids
(23:10):
anatomically correct language.
I just want to make sure you'recomfortable with that.
Because they may say will youwipe my anus?
And you might look at themcross-eyed like my goodness.
Um, but the reason I teach themthat is because they are far
less likely to get targeted by apredator, because now that
predator knows that I am payingclose attention and my children
(23:32):
and I are talking about sexualabuse.
Love it, yes.
And if you have caregivers andyouth leaders and pastors I'm
using all those words becauseI've heard one too many of those
stories Grandparents, uncles,aunts, neighbors, babysitters so
they've all been warned theyare far less likely to then try
(23:54):
to covertly groom your child andabuse your child, because
you've just signaled this is arisky place to do that.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Yes, oh, such good advice.
Use the language, let them know, right, we we talk about these
things.
They may bring this up and thisis acceptable in our home.
I remember getting a phone callfrom my son's teacher when I
don't I think it was in secondgrade, and she was like, oh,
we've got a problem.
Oh, no, you know, he used theword penis and it really alarmed
(24:25):
people in the class and theother kids and I was like, well,
what were you talking about?
And she told me and it wasperfectly appropriate, he was
like on point and I said that'swhat we call this body part.
That's what it's called.
It's what it is.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
We made him roll around on the floor and say it
over and over again.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
We tried to condition him to say this, and now you're
saying it's a problem, butthat's about their discomfort.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yes, and as a caregiver, what you really want
to do is you want to be aware ofpeople that are offended like
defensive.
That's not a good sign.
Why is that person defensive?
Some people are uncomfortable,which I think is different than
being highly defensive about it.
But if someone's highlydefensive about it, that's
(25:12):
probably not a great environmentfor your kid to be in.
And maybe consider anotherenvironment if you have the
privilege and the capacity to dothat.
Totally, I would not keep mykids in a daycare with a daycare
provider who reacted negativelyto my little spiel about
anatomically correct words.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
That'd be a red flag for me.
It's like, okay, we're movingon.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
So you've.
You've taught all the language.
You've made it talkable.
Then you've taught body safetyrules.
That's great.
Now, around the age of four anda half to five, we're going to
talk directly with our childrenabout sexual abuse.
And this one is when I alwaysget pushed back because, like
periods, like I don't want themto lose their innocence.
I'm like they're not losingtheir innocence, they're gaining
(25:53):
information, and gaininginformation might be the thing
that actually prevents them fromlosing their innocence A
hundred percent.
And this conversation needs toinclude several things.
So it needs to include anunderstanding of grooming and
how grooming works.
It needs to be clear that abusecan happen from anybody, even
people we love and trust, and weneed to help them make a plan
(26:15):
for what to do if someoneattempts or succeeds at abusing.
Just like we talk to childrenabout drowning, just like we
talk to children about drowning,about water safety, we talk to
children about sexual abuse.
They are far more likely to besexual abused than they are to
drown, wow.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I never thought of that, so true that's how my
brain works.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
So so when my son was five, I had this conversation
with him and I said to him hey,I need to have an important
conversation with you.
You know how we've learned thatwe don't walk in the street
because a car could hit us andwe could end up in the hospital
and that would be not good, andwe don't jump into water that's
deeper than we can swim in,because we could get sucked
under the water and not be ableto breathe, and that would be
(26:59):
not good.
Well, there's this other thingthat can happen in the world,
where either a grownup oranother kid asks to do things to
your body that are unsafe for akid's body.
They might ask you to touchsome of their private parts.
(27:20):
They might ask you to look attheir private parts.
They may ask you to look attheir private parts.
They may ask you to show themyour private parts and they
might try to touch your privateparts.
Show you pictures of otherpeople touching private parts.
They might try to um, ask youto touch another child's private
parts, like anything thatinvolves private parts or
kissing on the mouth or any kindof uncomfortable touch.
(27:46):
Yes, this is something we callsexual abuse and we just call it
that, yes, not taking awaytheir innocence.
And the key is that we aregrounded in this conversation,
that we are not panicking and weare not overreacting as we have
this conversation, but that weare just like when we talk about
other scary things, having alevel of solemnness that they
can pick up on like, oh, this isa serious conversation that
(28:08):
we're having right now.
So good, yes.
And when, when I told my sonthat's the first time he looked
at me, he goes that's weird.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Right, he's already knows that's weird.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And I was like I know .
It's like why did they do that?
And I was like you know, yes, alot of people have really
messed up experiences when theywere kids and they just never,
ever get better and they just doit to other kids instead of
actually thinking about whathappened to them and dealing
with that.
He's like okay.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yes, and I want to underscore how, how capable our
kids are of these conversationsat five years old.
Yes, they get it, theyunderstand, they ask clarifying
questions.
They're like, yes, tell me whysomebody would want to do that.
Like they understand thedignity of their bodies and the
safety that you have provided inyour home, and so it's very
(28:58):
like they need this conversation, like tell me why that would
happen and and you know how torecognize it or what to do how
do I stand up for myself withthat person?
Does this, you know?
Yep.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
So then I explained here's what they usually do to
get you there.
So usually that person is goingto do things to put you in a
position to make it hard for youto say no.
So they might make you feelextra special, give you special
(29:31):
treats or special attention, ormake you think that, like
somehow they're an extraimportant person in your life,
so that when they ask you to doone of these things, or when
they start doing these things toyou, you feel guilty about
saying no because you feelbonded to them already.
Oh, yes, so, and and youexplain like you know, if
(29:55):
someone, if someone, gave you a,a, um, brand new stuffed animal
and it was something you reallyloved and you loved it, and
then a couple of weeks laterthey said, well, now I want to
punch you in the face because Igave you a stuffed animal.
You might feel kind of confused, like wait a minute, I'm
confused and maybe you wouldlike pause for a second and not
(30:16):
know what to say.
And then they punch you in theface and then you're like super
confused, right, and then theygive you something else and then
you think, well, maybe they'renot mad at me.
And I don't know what to do withthis.
That's how these people work.
They confuse you with kindness.
That's what grooming is.
They confuse you with kindness,or sometimes they make up lies
(30:37):
to scare you.
So they might say somethinglike if you don't do this, then
I'm going to hurt your mom anddad, right?
They might say something likeif you don't do this, then I'm
going to hurt your mom and dad,right.
And I want you to know thatthese are the type of people who
make things up.
They're the type of people thathurt kids.
So you already know thatthey're not really trustworthy
characters.
So if they say, like this badthing is going to happen, I want
you to know it's not true.
That's not what's going tohappen.
They just know that you'll that.
You don't know that, and theyknow that you're a kid and
(30:59):
they're trying to scare you sothey can get what they want from
you.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
You explain to them that these people are trying to
trick you and you're not goingto get tricked.
Yes, right, you, you're on tothem.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
You sniffed it out and this is this is exactly as
weird and as uncomfortable as itseems.
That's right.
It feels weird, because it isweird, yes, so then.
So, then we start working on aplan, and so we came up with
what do we think our plan is?
And he came up with run, yell,tell.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Run, yell tell.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
I was like that's great, run, yell, tell.
Absolutely.
So if someone starts to saysomething that makes you
uncomfortable or look at you inan uncomfortable way, you can
just run away, yell loudly sothat the people who you know can
help you will help you and thentell them what it was that
happened and made youuncomfortable.
And we identified who hispeople were at that stage of his
life, both inside my home,outside of my home, within
(31:55):
relatives that he could alwaysgo tell these people if
something happens.
Then and this is important wedid a role play and once you
hear what happened in my roleplay, you'll be like, oh my gosh
, this is so interesting howkids brains work.
So I said, okay, let's pretendthat someone says to you I'll
(32:16):
give you a hundred dollars Ifyou tickle my penis what do you?
do.
And I was expecting him,because we just had the
conversation, to say run yell,tell El Tel right.
Instead he looked at me and hegoes maybe a hundred dollars is
a lot of money.
Yes, I thought, oh my gosh.
Yes, I, I understand the valueof his intact sexual development
(32:40):
yes he doesn't understand thatbecause he hasn't sexually
developed and and so, like hejust wasn't sure, he's like
maybe that, maybe she's trickingme here Like maybe maybe a
hundred dollars is worth it,right, and so with him, I and I
have.
I come from a background ofprivilege where I really could
follow up on this offer.
So when you use your example,don't use a hundred dollars.
(33:02):
Say, what if someone offers you$10 to tickle your penis, what
do you do?
But I told him listen, anytimeanyone offers you anything to
touch your private parts, attachtheir private parts to look at
pictures of private parts, anyof that, you, whatever the offer
is, I will double it.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
So wise Kids can then in that moment be like, oh,
this is a cool stuffed animal,but I already know my mom said
she'd get me too.
Yes, um, and so I mean thisobviously can get tricky if you
are in a context where all of asudden another grandma and
grandpa are offering your kidstoys and then they come back and
like I told grandma no, causeyou'd get me too, right, and you
(33:43):
say like, no, I, I'm talkingabout if someone is trying to
hurt you by touching you orhaving you touch them or looking
at all that stuff.
So you're, you're repeating allthose things over and over so
they really have it in theirhead, and then the key is to
continue to bring it up overtime in a in a nonchalant way.
Hey, just checking in.
We had that conversation aboutsexual abuse.
(34:05):
Do you have any thoughts orquestions of any?
Anything come up?
You know, have you?
Has there been anything that'shappened that's felt like that
in the past or recently?
Yes, and then continuing overthe years.
And I would say you know, ifyou're, if you're not noticing
any concerning signs in yourchildren, like they've become
(34:26):
all of a sudden incrediblysullen and they're not talking
to you about anything.
You know that's a disturbinglike what's going on.
Let's say, your kid is actingfairly regulated and well, I
don't know, maybe every once amonth it's just like a check-in.
Hey, we haven't talked aboutsexual abuse in a while.
Has anything happened that'smade you uncomfortable?
Has anyone been creepy with youor, you know, have you heard of
anything happening to anybodyelse?
(34:47):
And most of the time they'regoing to say no, and that's
great.
But you've set the stage thatit's something they can bring to
you if and when they are ableto and ready to.
Sometimes it takes kids a whileto disclose.
Yes, kind of like what you wentthrough.
It takes a while to evenprocess what happened.
It's like what just happened.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yes, Was that?
Yes, and so I love the idea ofbringing it up, you know and
bringing it from.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
if it's a grownup, that grownup has also probably
made the child feel like it wastheir fault or it didn't really
happen.
There was probably gaslighting,you know.
So there's stuff our kids arehaving to process through Um and
that's why we continue childfeel like it was their fault or
it didn't really happen.
There was probably gaslighting,you know.
So there's stuff our kids arehaving to process through Um and
that's why we continue to bringit up because at different
developmental stages they mighthave more of an ability to talk
about it.
I know a lot of people who endup disclosing after they are in
(35:36):
a class where they learn aboutsomething like maybe they're in
junior high school and theyrealize, oh my gosh, that's what
my brother did to me.
Yes, that's that's actuallywhat my cousin tried to do to me
, um.
So I think, knowing as a parentthat we're setting up the stage
for our children to disclose tous and they may not immediately
disclose, it may take them sometime, but that we want them to
(35:57):
disclose at some point, nomatter what.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yes and Eli, I don't know if you've had I'm sure
you've had this experience inyour practice where you have an
adult client come to you andthey say you know, when you're
asking about their sexual abusehistory, was that something that
you experienced?
They, they say no one everbelieved me.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yes, I've had it one too many times.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Yes, and they didn't believe me that.
No one thought I was tellingthe truth.
They thought I was trying toget back at uncle Randy or
whatever, and so speak to that alittle bit.
I mean, if somebody, if yourchild, tells you that something
happened to them and it's yourbrother that did it to him, or
your husband's you know aunt orwhatever, yes, what, how, how
(36:42):
should you respond to them sothat they will continue talking
about it versus you knowshutting?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
it down.
So number one, that's we.
The reason I introduced andsaid we aren't in control of
making sure this doesn't happenwe're doing what we can to
prevent it, but we're not underthe delusion that we are in
control of making sure isbecause I think a lot of parents
in that moment are so full ofshame that, rather than
processing the grief, they theyjust come up with a different
(37:13):
narrative.
Well, this can't be that likecause.
They don't want to deal with itbecause it means they've failed
.
So we want to come to ourchildren with, with the
acceptance that they mayexperience this in the world.
One in three girls, one in sixboys, by the time they're 18.
Wow, and we've all witnessed theMe Too movement.
How many women have beensexually assaulted, sexually
(37:34):
abused, raped in adulthood aswell?
Like, the likelihood is, ourchildren will experience some
form of sexual violence in theirlifetime, and so we need to be
prepared to hold that travestyand tragedy with them, which
means we do need to believe them.
So if, in the future, mychildren come to me and say, mom
, this happened, my firstresponse is going to be I'm so
(37:55):
sorry, tell me what you rememberor tell me when.
Just very gently and openlyreceptive to them, telling the
story in that moment, and theymay not tell you a lot Not first
time, I might've just taken somuch courage to say it at all
that then they're like I don'twant to talk about it anymore.
Yes, and then our response isokay, we don't have to talk
(38:15):
right now.
We will figure this out, but wedon't talk right now.
And then our next line ofcommunication is I'm going to do
everything I can to make surethat that never happens again.
So that they hear that, Athey're believed, and they're
believed so much that B we aregoing to intervene in some way,
(38:35):
shape or form.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yes, one of the things that I heard you know
from clients is is that you knowwhen their kids come to
disclose that they have beenabused by a relative, someone
close to them, you know, in thehome they say you know, I'm
going to tell you this, but youcan't tell anyone, because I
don't want yes, you know uncleJoe to get in trouble and I
(38:57):
don't want him to go away orsomething.
I don't want something bad tohappen to his family because
he's going to go to jail, right.
And so then as a parent, you'reput in a position where it's
like, oh no, he's trusting in meor she's trusting in me, and so
what do I do about this?
So speak to that a little bit.
What advice would you give aparent in that situation?
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Okay.
So let's say they say beforethey disclose I want to tell you
something, but you have topromise not to tell anyone what
close I want to tell yousomething, but you have to
promise not to tell anyone.
What I want you to do is sayyou can tell me anything and no
matter what you tell me, I'mgoing to make sure that you are
safe, that we are safe, thateverybody in the situation is
safe.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
So you're not promising, you're not saying I'm
not going to tell anyone, butyou are reassuring what the fear
is underneath that.
Underneath that fear is,someone will get hurt.
Yes, which is another reason Ilike to tell parents please
don't do the shotgun approach toprotection.
Please don't tell your childrenIf anyone ever hurts you, I'm
going to send them to the finefarm.
If anybody ever hurts you, I'mgoing to take them out back and
(39:54):
teach them a lesson.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Don't do that, because now your children are
set up to protect you instead ofdisclosing to you so they won't
tell you because they're afraidyou're going to lose your
nutter and end up in jail.
Oh, that is so good.
Yes, do not.
Do not pre-tell them whatyou're, how you're going to hurt
the person if they get hurt bythem.
Ooh that's good, good reminder,that doesn't make children feel
protected.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
That makes children.
It adds to the pile of terror.
Yes, what makes children feelprotected is, if something ever
happens to you, I will believeyou and I will make sure it
stops, and then I will help youget the healing that you need to
get through it.
We will get through it together.
Yes, so that's.
The next message is this is notgoing to happen anymore and
(40:36):
we're going to get through.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
This message is this is not going to happen anymore
and we're going to get throughthis.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
And then you know your job is to go and go to your
village, to your friends andfamily members, partners,
whoever it is in your world thatcan help you grieve, because
it's.
It is not happening to you, butit is happening to you.
Being the parent of a childwho's experiencing trauma is is
a nightmare.
So you go to your people andyou process and you get wise
(41:00):
counsel from therapists, fromsupports, and you get connected
to other grownups that are goingto help you figure out how to
help your child through this.
And it does get messy, you knowlike.
So what?
If so, this scenario happens waytoo often is that when a
sibling, an older siblingusually a boy, not always a boy
(41:20):
assaults um a younger sibling,and so the younger sibling
discloses to and your brainfreezes because you were only
prepared to deal with somepsychopathic pedophile and you
were going to just call the copsand end their life, their life
as they knew it, and now it'syour other child.
Oh, so different.
It's so different and it'sunfortunately not uncommon.
(41:44):
33% of all sexual abuse happensfrom child to child.
I believe, that 80% of sexualabuse happens at the hands of
someone we know and trust.
So you know, like I said, youwere in a small percentage of
people that experienced sexualabuse outside of those contexts.
But so if, if that's thesituation, and one sibling to
the next, you you're going tohave to do a lot of different
(42:07):
forms of investing.
So, first of all, you'recommunicating to the younger
sibling I'm so proud of you fortelling me that was so brave.
And they're like is Danny goingto get in trouble?
And you're like Danny is goingto get help.
We are going to make sure thatwhatever's going on with Danny
gets what it needs, but he isnot going to be able to do that
to you again.
Yes, this is this won't happenagain.
(42:28):
I'm so proud of you.
And then you're going to have alot of complexity and this is
why you need to have aprofessional in your corner if
this has occurred in your life,and I know a lot of people get
freaked out because what if CPSgets called?
First of all, I want everyoneto know that CPS very rarely
takes kids out of homes.
They don't want to take yourkid out of your home.
They don't want to pay to takeyour kid out of your home.
(42:49):
They're really only going totake kids out of homes where
caregivers are truly neglectfuland are truly abusive.
Yes, so even if CPS gets called, what that will actually likely
unlock in your life is moreresources.
Yes, agreed.
If they don't, they don't, butif they do so if you're sharing
(43:11):
with a therapist hey, this iswhat my child told me that their
sibling was touching theirprivate parts or having them.
Um, this is a specific scenario.
I've worked with a siblingsexual abuse.
An older sibling was having itin their sibling.
Take all their clothes off,take a shower and like do
gymnastics moves in the shower.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Okay, I haven't heard that one before, but this
things happen.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
That's right.
So you know this is what'shappened and you're you're
telling a therapist like this iswhat's happened.
You want the therapist to helpyou really evaluate and make
sure that's all that hashappened.
Not that that isn't in itselftraumatic, confusing,
disorienting and a form oftrauma, but that we want to make
sure there's not other stuffgoing on, Like what's the full
extent of this, um?
(43:55):
And then we want to make surethat we know what it is that's
motivating that older child.
Is this curiosity, right?
So, again, maybe we've raisedour children not talking about
these things because we weretold they were bad and scary and
we thought we weren't supposedto and so we didn't.
And so now we have an11-year-old boy in the home
who's very curious about bodiesand is like well, my sister has
(44:18):
a body and I want to see what itlooks like, and so they're
trying, you know, like, is itmotivated by curiosity or has
this child been exposed topornography early?
Have they had their own traumafrom somebody else?
Another child or anothergrownup?
We're really wanting toevaluate what's going on.
Another child or anothergrownup?
(44:39):
We're really wanting toevaluate what's going on, yes,
and then we're going toestablish really clear rules
about you know when and wherethese two kids, or all of our
kids, are to be alone with eachother.
We're going to make sure we'retalking about sexual abuse.
We're going to have familytherapy so that our children
don't have to have the trauma ofbeing dropped and ignored along
with the trauma of havingexperienced some form of sexual
(45:01):
violation.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yes, because I think that I think the common response
for parents, when they get soshocked that this has happened,
is separate them.
You've got to go over there.
You're going to have to go tograndma's for a few weeks.
I can tell we sort this out,and so I like your approach of
saying like we're going to healthis together, we're going to
get help together.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yeah, you know and I think it really depends Right.
So like this is another caseI've been working on for a long
time, but the older brother was15 and the daughter was 12 and
he raped her, yeah, so like inthat context um, you know, this
daughter never told her parentsbecause she really sensed that
(45:43):
they wouldn't know what to do.
That was her sense.
Um, and so didn't, didn't evenlike fully remember until
adulthood, until she couldprocess it later on, Um, but if
a child is disclosing like aviolent level of assault from a
sibling, then actually it mightbe appropriate.
But we want to do that again.
We want to do this withconfidence and love.
(46:03):
Hey, what, what happened therewas really not OK.
And so we're going to have tohave you stay at grandma's Dad's
going to go with you so thatyou're not alone.
But we're going to take a fewdays and maybe it's during those
few days that you're gettingprofessional help and assessment
to figure out all of the insand outs of what's happened.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
The goal is not to ruin the life of the child who
has offended, because why arethey offending Exactly?
They're not okay, they're notokay.
But it is to get them theresources and help they need in
hopes that they can heal andrecover and move into a
different zone.
I mean, this is messy, messy,messy business no doubt this is
which is why I think so many ofus would prefer to just never
(46:45):
talk about it Like that onehappened to me.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Right, but we have to talk about it, because the more
we talk about it in our circles, in our communities, the more
common this feels like, yeah,body safety, you know, just like
bicycle safety, swimming safety, the more common this feels
like, yeah, body safety, youknow, just like bicycle safety,
swimming safety.
You're right.
It's just we need to make itmore of a our common vernacular
so that we can be in eachother's corners, because I've
witnessed so many times whereparents feel so ashamed.
(47:12):
It's like, no, nobody knows inour family that this happened.
Nobody not, not my sister, notmy parents I couldn't even bear
to tell my spouse or somethingand it's like, guys, yeah, that
doesn't make it better.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
That doesn't create healing for anybody.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Absolutely not.
So I I'm so grateful thatyou're out there, you're on
social media, you're on yourwebsite, attachmentnerdcom.
You are counseling people.
You have retreats for parentsto learn more about this and
understand their own attachmentpatterns and identify their own
areas of trauma in their past toreally make this something that
(47:49):
we can connect with, not beafraid of, but instead be
prepared for.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Yes, yes, yes.
Well, and the other note I wanteveryone to have is that the
most powerful thing we do toprotect our children in the
world is to cultivate the typeof secure attachment with them
that lends to them wanting torun to our arms when things feel
scary and overwhelming, likethat piece of the puzzle is so
massive, and that's why I reallydo push back on behavioral type
(48:22):
parenting approaches wherewe're trying to punish our
children into obedience or we'retrying to motivate them through
negative consequences.
It messes with the attachmentrelationship.
We need to have boundaries, weneed to have limits.
We need to teach our childrenwhat's okay and not okay in
social behavior, but we don'thave to hurt them in order for
(48:44):
them to learn, and I want us allto remember that.
You know when we're in a new joband we're learning something
new.
We don't need the people whoare training us to threaten to
dock our pay if we don't do itright the first, second, third
or fourth time.
We need them to give us cluesand guides and ideas.
Right, and that's notpermissive.
(49:05):
Permissive is just ignoring andnot helping a child to develop.
But we can be connectedteachers and guides so that when
the big bad stuff comes, ourchildren are more likely to come
tell us so that we can helpthem, so that we can prevent it
from being a years longencounter and instead it be.
You know, a creepy feeling inthe parking lot.
(49:27):
You know, yes, that's we.
We, we want our children to beable to have resilience, and
resilience comes from connection.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Yes, you're so right.
I you know.
I was talking about my ownexperience that I shared earlier
with my parents and my parentssaid you know, our parents never
talked about this stuff with us, so why would they talk to us
about this?
Right, it's like they'rethinking like, well, we just
that wasn't common talk aroundour house, like nobody shared
(49:56):
about that.
You kind of heard about it frompeople who had already
experienced something bad.
But you know what you're sayingis lay the foundation early
with your kids.
Four to five, make this commontalk.
Don't scare them every timethey do something wrong by
punishing them and onlyrewarding, like pure obedience,
(50:18):
without questioning anything.
Right, because that createsfear and they're just obeying
because they're afraid of you.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
Yeah, that's compliance.
We want our children to becooperative, but not compliant,
because we all know that notevery person in power in the
world is wielding their powerwith kindness and grace and
creativity Right, and so, likethere are places we want our
children to defy authority yes,and and, and we definitely want
(50:45):
them to defy the authority of agrownup who's trying to sexually
abuse them and grooming them,and we can't teach them that
skill if we're also teachingthem blind obedience.
So we have to think inrelational terms.
I have so much more information.
There's a whole free webinar onsexual abuse prevention where I
go even more in depth througheach of the stages and how you
(51:08):
think about that and I giveexamples.
You can kind of watch me liketalk to a pretend baby about
their body parts et cetera, sothat you can get kind of deeper,
more details on this preventionprocess, as well as heaps and
heaps and heaps of informationin my membership where you can
go watch videos on how to staycalm when your child's upset or
(51:32):
how to help you and your partnerget on the same page about
parenting kind of all the thingsentailed in cultivating secure
attachment for our kids and thebiggest piece of what we know
from the data, of how we offerour children secure attachment
experiences with us, is abouthave we done our own work about
our own attachment experiences?
So have we reflected on what weexperienced growing up with our
(51:56):
caregivers?
Have we grieved any parts ofthat that were insecure or
painful?
And then we can start to applyand grow and relate to our kids
in more secure ways.
So that's what my book is.
It's not a parenting book, it'sactually to help you go back and
learn what happened to you, howit impacted you.
(52:20):
There's a section that likereferences sexual abuse, because
that can be a piece of yourattachment puzzle If you were
sexually abused and then youshut down and you stopped going
to your parents about anythingthat affected your attachment
pattern.
And then a whole section onkind of what you developed as
coping skills and then how canyou now learn to rely securely
on the other adults in your life?
(52:40):
So how can you build secureattachment relationships that
co-regulate and support you?
And if because if we aren'tdoing that, we can't give our
kids what they need we're justgoing to get overstimulated,
overtired, we're going to bepissy, we're going to revert
back to some of those patternsthat we learned when we were
little.
Um, so that's, that is the like.
Last resource I have is my book, securely attached.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
I love, I love, I love it and it's beautifully
designed.
You have such a unique lookabout yourself, about your
website, attachmentnerdcom, yourbook.
When did it come?
Speaker 2 (53:14):
out.
It's recent.
It actually comes out November21st, so we're 12 days away.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Yes, Exciting you guys.
You have to get a copy.
I've linked the Amazon.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
You know, amazon purchase link right here in the
show notes.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
Yes, so you'll have no problem getting it.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
And right now, anyone who pre-orders.
So if you order it in the next12 days, um, or if you hear this
podcast and you order it, causemaybe it'll be after order date
, I don't know Okay, well, I'lljust say that.
So anyone who orders my bookcan, um, send that receipt to
hello at attachment nerdcom, andjust let me know that you heard
me here on this podcast and Iwill send you a code for 50% off
(53:54):
the membership.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
You're blessing our parent community.
Okay, so they buy the book,send you a copy of the receipt
that they bought the book, andthen they get 50% off of your
membership.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
Yes, and there are monthly, quarterly and yearly
options, so you can get quite abit off.
If you link on the yearly one,it's quite a lot of money off
bit off.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
if you link on the yearly one, it's quite a lot of
money off.
Yes, and if you're new to Eliand her message and her, you
know her brand, attachment nerd,which I just love because I
don't know that you're a nerd,but you definitely have you
bring the brains and the sciencebehind all this attachment.
You know theory and and make itso practical for people.
But if you're not ready to jumpinto a membership, follow her
(54:43):
on Instagram please, tiktok.
She's got a billion videosshort reels, long webinars, like
PDFs, like downloadableresources, free resources that
go with the video.
So I'm a very visually orientedperson.
Like.
I have to hear it.
But then I want, like aworksheet or a printable that I
can write on, and you've gotthem both.
(55:04):
So jam packed, jam packed withresources and attachment nerd.
Yes, yes, so blessed to haveyou on our show.
You're always welcome back onthe families of character show.
There's so much that you haveto offer.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
I loved being here.
Thank you for having me andthank you for doing what you're
doing for families.
It's such a gift.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Absolutely, guys.
I just want to point you toanother resource so you know
that if you're a part of ourcommunity the thrive community
by families of character onFacebook, that's our private
community that we have launchedsome parent coaching.
So we just kicked off our firstsession last night and it was
(55:44):
fire.
People are really wanting toshare, to dig in, to identify
the things that are going wellin their family and also to just
have a safe space to talk aboutthings that maybe they're not
so confident about when it comesto parenting kids and some of
(56:05):
these topics just like sexualabuse, and so that is a new
service that we're offering isparent coaching.
So, yes, go to our website,families of charactercom, hit
the shop button and you will beable to see whatever coaching
options we have going oncurrently and get notified of
the new ones.
Also, when this episodelaunched, you got an email in
(56:28):
your inbox.
So we send out an email everyTuesday and so you can sign up
for our newsletter at familiesof charactercom Just hit the
subscribe button up top.
And if you're listening to thison audio, but you want to see
what we look like talking backand forth, and this gal's style
(56:49):
her rock and earrings and herlipstick, which is her signature
.
Look go to YouTube and check usout.
It's on our YouTube channel,families of Character, and you
can watch there.
So again, thank you very much,eli, for sharing and blessing
our community with suchpractical resources and giving
(57:09):
us hope about prevention andintervention with sexual abuse.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
Thank you for having me Jordan, yes.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
Okay, guys, we'll catch you on another episode
real soon.
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