November 4, 2025 • 45 mins
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One in four adults are distant or estranged from a parent. We dig into why that happens and how to reverse the pattern by making home the safest place for truth. With licensed psychotherapist, Catherine Hickem, we unpack the habits that build lifelong closeness and the ones that quietly push kids away.
We discuss:
• the cost of fear driven parenting and hidden expectations
• modeling conflict resolution that heals, not harms
• treating adult kids with respect, curiosity and privacy
• owning mistakes and offering sincere apologies
• navigating holidays and time boundaries with clarity
• processing grief to show up present and kind
Be sure to check out Catherine's website where she offers free tools to strengthen your relationship with your adult children, and purchase her book, Heaven in Her Arms: Why God Chose Mary to Raise His Son and What It Means for You.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Parents, here's a sober reality.
One in four adults today aredistant or even estranged from
their parents.
That means when our kids growup, the odds are high that they
also might not want us in theirlives if we don't get
intentional right now about howwe parent.
(00:51):
Welcome back to the show.
I'm your host, Jordan Langdon.
And as moms and dads of youngkids, it's easy to sort of think
about that and go, you knowwhat, Jordan, this is a someday
problem, right?
Something we'll figure out whenthey're teenagers or in college.
But the truth is, guys, that thefoundation for a close lifelong
(01:13):
bond with our children is beingbuilt in these everyday moments
of parenting.
That's why I'm so excited fortoday's guest, Catherine Hickam.
For over 40 years, Catherine'sbeen walking parents through the
messy and complicated emotionsof conflict, change, and growth.
(01:36):
And she, like me, is a licensedclinical social worker.
She's a psychotherapist and anexecutive coach who has truly
dedicated her life to helpingpeople build healthy and lasting
relationships.
And today she's bringing herwisdom to a topic almost no one
is talking about.
How to raise kids who want tostay close to you into
(02:00):
adulthood.
This is one of thoseconversations that could change
the way you see your role as aparent forever.
So if you've ever wondered, am Idoing enough to make sure my
kids want me in their liveslater when they're adults and
having kids, stick around.
Catherine has answers and youdon't want to miss them.
(02:21):
Catherine, welcome to our show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Catherine, you have worked withfamilies for over 40 years.
So share with us what firstsparked your passion for really
helping parents build theselasting bonds with their kids.
What was sort of the aha momentthat made you realize so many
(02:45):
parent-child relationships areat risk of drifting apart?
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
I was working with uh parents of children under the
age of 18.
And what I noticed was there somany parents would come and say
to me, I am I doing it right?
I'm so scared, I'm gonna mess itup.
And my first thought to them wasthe fact that you're even aware
that you're asking the questionsays you have a pretty good shot
(03:10):
of not messing it up because youcare and you're you're hungry to
grow and to learn.
But what I also realized at thattime, we had a lot of parents
that were not knowing how todeal with conflict.
And when people don't know howto get deal with conflict, they
either go into denial or they gointo avoidance or they just cut
people off.
And then now we have a biggerproblem because we are not
(03:33):
modeling what healthy conflictresolution looks like.
And if you have a family thatyou really love, like someone in
your like your children, thelast thing you could ever
imagine was not having aconnection to them.
And so I had come across thisfamily that these parents they
came to me and they said, We'venot seen our children in six
(03:53):
years.
They won't talk to us, we haveno idea why.
And we are brokenhearted.
We have a grandchild we've neverseen.
We're not allowed to be in theirlives in any way, shape, or
form.
We don't know what to do.
And the pain that was in theirfaces and this the weeping just
moved me in such a manner that Ithought, this is so not right.
(04:18):
This was not God's heart.
This there's some pain in herethat has not been acknowledged.
There, there's something goingon.
And I and I began to payattention.
And as I began to look around, Iwas like, oh my goodness, this
is this isn't just this family.
This has become a major, majorissue.
(04:39):
And so I thought, all right,someone needs to be paying
attention to what it's like toparent in the adult years, you
know, and I went and lookedonline, I went and did all this
research.
Very, very, very little waswritten on parenting in the
adult years.
And I'm like, you're a parent inthe adult years far longer than
(05:00):
you are when they're living inyour home.
At least if you're healthy,that's you know, that could go
on 40, 50 years.
Um, my mom's still alive, she's90 years old.
So that, you know, I'm stillbeing parented by somebody.
And think of all those yearsthat could have been wasted in
families that didn't talk toeach other.
(05:21):
And so it just, I think it wasGod's desire to put this burden
on my heart to the point wherehe wouldn't let me not pay
attention to it.
And so I think he has a love forfamilies that goes be way beyond
what most therapists andspecialists have looked at.
And I think he says, now's thetime.
Now's the time that we payattention.
(05:42):
We've got to create healing.
Our our world needs families tobe strong.
And if there's brokenness andfractures, it's not gonna
happen.
And I saw it so magnified duringCOVID that the the severity, and
it I'm not taking sides one wayor the other, the severity of
what it did to families caused abreakdown.
(06:05):
And I see it even today.
I I was talking to somebody lastweek who um whose uncle will not
let anybody in the family cometo their home still after all
these years, if they didn't lineup on the same side of his
belief system as he did.
So the division is deep, andchildren and young adults are
suffering because they don'tfeel safe to go to talk with
(06:29):
their parents, but parents arealso kind of oblivious as to the
damage that they're creatingwith good intentions, but
they're still creating wallsinstead of bridges.
And I'm here about buildingbridges.
I the walls have got to gobecause the walls are a hundred
feet high in some families,which is really crushing the
future generations because thisis grandchildren are seeing the
(06:52):
disconnect between their parentsand their grandparents, and they
don't understand.
So now's the time for us toreally say, okay, what can we do
in order to restore and repairthe brokenness that's happening
in today's family?
And that and that was that waswhere I started.
And I'll tell you the story thatreally, really got my heart.
(07:13):
My daughter was home fromcollege between her junior and
senior year, and one of herfriends came to visit.
And we'll call him Jason.
And so we were having lunch, andTiff had left the room.
That's my daughter, and Jasonsaid to me, Mrs.
Hickam, did you know thatTiffany is the only friend that
I have who is the same in frontof her parents as she is behind
(07:34):
their back?
And I said, Really?
And he said, Yeah, the only one.
And I said, Well, what aboutyou, Jason?
Are you the same?
He said, Oh no, absolutely not.
And I said, Well, why is that?
And he said, Miss Sickum, I knowwhat my parents' expectations of
me are.
And he said, and when I don'tlive up to them, my mom cries
(07:56):
and my dad gets mad.
So I've just decided that whenI'm with them, I'll be who they
want me to be.
And when I walk out the door,I'll go back to being myself.
SPEAKER_01 (08:06):
But that gives me the chills, Catherine.
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
It just broke me.
It broke me.
And I said, I'm so sorry.
And he said, It's okay, MissSickum.
It's the normal for me andeverybody else.
SPEAKER_01 (08:19):
And that's when you realize this is not just him.
This is a majority of youngadults who leave home and they
say, I remember how it was.
I know exactly what's going tohappen.
Mom's going to break down.
Then I'm supposed to feel badthat I've hurt her feelings
because now it's about her beinghurt.
And dad is going to be angrythat I caused mom to cry.
(08:41):
And so we don't go there, shoveit under the rug, get back in
line into how I'm expected tobe.
And then all will be well andthe boat will not be rocked.
That's exactly what's happening.
And then, Catherine, what makesme think of something else is
that as adults, we're likelooking at our kids going, like,
oh, it seems like you're wearinga mask.
(09:03):
You know, why are you out thereat college?
Just be yourself.
And it's like, well, what are wedoing as parents to cause them
to put on a mask in the firstplace, right?
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
That's exactly right.
And there lies a major issuebecause they learn to live
double lives.
They learn to live the life thatthey think we want them to live.
So we will be happy.
So we won't be upset with them.
So they don't have to deal withour disappointment, which just
kills them.
They don't want to feelrejected.
(09:33):
They don't want to take the riskof losing the fact they may not
be loved the same way.
I can't tell you the number ofyoung adults who've said to me,
if I told my mom or dad thingsthat I've done or things that
I've participated in, they wouldnever, ever, ever treat me the
same.
And whether it's true or not,it's the fear that is driving
(09:56):
the relationship.
It's no longer truth, because itcould be true, it could not be
true, but it's fear.
So fear is now driving theserelationships.
And so I've never seen a gooddecision made out of fear, to be
honest with you.
No.
Ever.
Right?
So now we have these, thisgeneration have learned I can't
(10:18):
be who I am because it's notacceptable.
So now they'll go find friendswhere it will be acceptable.
Those friends may not be thewisest counsel.
So what happens when they reallyget into trouble?
I was reading some research fromthe Pew Institute, and it said,
I think the the statistic was44% of adult children would tell
(10:40):
their parent if they were introuble with a mental health
problem.
Okay, only 44%.
So that means 56% won't tell.
Well, when the stats are 36.2%of adult children between 18 and
25 have a mental illness.
(11:02):
Where are these young adultsgoing to go if they're in
trouble?
Who will they talk to?
Who can they trust?
So you see, we have to be reallyclear about our expectations.
And what parents don't seem tounderstand is they've lived with
us.
They lived with us for 18 years.
They know our biases, ourprejudices, they've heard us
(11:23):
talk about other people, they'veheard us be judgmental.
They know us probably in someways better than we know
ourselves.
So we can't fool them.
The only thing we could do issit down and have a really
important conversation and justsay, hey, I want to talk about
something.
And that is, I want to make sureyou understand that there is
nothing you could ever bring tome that would ever cause me not
(11:46):
to stand by you and to not loveyou with everything that I am.
And yeah, I'm gonna own the factthat there have been times you
probably heard me be critical ofother people and maybe critical
of your friends.
I own that.
And that wasn't right of me.
But I also want to make one morething clear to you.
Nothing will ever cause me notto love you well.
(12:08):
I may not understand you, I maynot even can get my hands around
your choices, but nothing everwill cause me not to love you.
Do you know how incrediblyempowering that would be and
healing that would be just tohave that simple conversation
with adult children?
(12:28):
Yeah, that would be the healing,it would restore hope, it would
restore a sense of safety, itwould restore a sense of they do
love me, right?
And I think we need that.
This country needs this, theworld needs this.
And so we need to look atourselves as parents and say,
(12:53):
what could they have learned inmy home that I really didn't
want them to learn?
SPEAKER_01 (12:57):
Yes.
And then you're talking aboutgoing to them.
They're adults right now.
You can do this even whenthey're teenagers or when
they're young, right?
Is saying, I messed up.
You witnessed some things in ourhome that I wish you wouldn't
have, you know, the way wetalked to each other or the
criticism we had about the theJoneses and when they decided
(13:19):
to, you know, move to Kansas inthe middle of COVID and we
thought that was crazy orwhatever.
Like, you know, we shouldn'thave judged.
And a matter of fact, peoplehave free will to do what they
want, and that means you do andI do, and and that we are
responsible for ourselves anddoing the right things.
But there is just absolutelynothing that you can do that
(13:43):
would separate you from me andmy love for you.
I mean, where does this messagecome from?
Straight from scripture, right?
SPEAKER_00 (13:51):
Straight from scripture.
It is the heart of God, right?
And when we can do that with ourchildren, that is the closest
manifestation of God Himselfliving himself out in us to
them.
Because I grew up in the church.
My father was a minister.
I was married to a minister for35 years.
I understand the body of Christreally well.
(14:12):
And I understand it can also beone of the most harsh, difficult
places to be in terms ofcomparison and judgment.
And sometimes the church is notsafe.
Sometimes it's a fabulous place.
But sometimes we learn greatthings and sometimes we learn
not so great things.
And our generation of children,until recently, had moved far
(16:01):
away from the church.
And there are reasons for it.
And it started with judgment.
It started with not feeling thatthey belonged, they weren't
safe, they couldn't bethemselves.
They will go look for places tofind acceptance.
And not all those places arealways good places.
But they're looking for love andthey're looking for acceptance.
(16:23):
And if they can't find it athome, they will go wherever they
need to go to find it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
That's how strong the need for acceptance really
is.
Think about Maslow's hierarchyof needs, you know, and you got
the most basic right front andcenter.
You got to have food and waterand shelter and love, right?
And love to any human being issomeone denying themselves to
(16:52):
serve us, to just be open andsaying, This is not about me.
This relationship is about youcoming to me in full
vulnerability, you know, at yourdarkest hour and saying, You're
the person that I'm trusting inmy life as my mom or my dad to
(17:12):
just lay it out here and tellyou this is what's going on with
me.
We had this conversation withour teenage son, right?
Where it's like, listen, you'vebeen through some stuff, you've
made some decisions that you'renot happy about and we're
confused about or whatever.
And you know what?
This is part of life.
You're discovering, you knowwhat who you are, what you
(17:34):
believe in, you know, how tostand up to people and peer
pressure, and you're gonna tripand fall.
We have tripped and falled, fella million times, and we still
are today.
That's why we continue toapologize to you as parents.
We continue to ask you forforgiveness, and we continue to
(17:55):
admit our wrongs to you becausethat is also modeling that it's
okay to admit your wrong and totake personal responsibility for
some choices that didn't line upreal well.
SPEAKER_00 (18:08):
Well, and and what you're giving him is the
opportunity for redemption,right?
Which is what Jesus gives usevery single second of the day.
We have an opportunity to beredeemed.
Unfortunately, when we'redealing with expectations, there
is this thing that if we don'tmeet expectations, if the young
adults don't meet expectations,they can be shamed.
(18:28):
And because it's it made theparents look bad, they hurt
their reputation, they were adisappointment on a grand scale.
And so as a result, that shamehas no place to go.
Guilt, you can do somethingabout.
Shame is a dead end, and itreally sours a person's sense of
(18:53):
their value.
And that's what happens whenexpectations play a really
unhealthy role in a in a family,right?
And so if we can get aware ofwhat all our expectations are,
we can start to clean them up orwe can start to get clear with
them, you know.
And I'll hear parents say, Oh, Idon't really have that many, you
(19:15):
know, they have their own lives.
And I'll I simply go, well,let's talk about the holidays.
And then it gets really quietbecause everybody has an opinion
about well, aren't you gonnacome here for Christmas?
Or I th we this what are wegonna do about our tradition?
We've always done it this way.
Something small doesn't seemlike that big of a deal, but
guess what?
(19:35):
It becomes a big deal, and nowwe have conflict, and now we
have hurt feelings, and now wehave mom crying because it's not
gonna look like it always haslooked.
So it can get real dicey reallyfast, and we don't see it as
parents.
We don't see all the differentways that we have these
expectations.
(19:56):
And um I heard a mom say to melast week, she said, yeah, she
said, you know, my child justwent away um to college for the
first time, and she said, I'malready wondering how much time
he's gonna spend with mewhenever he comes home from
college versus seeing all hisfriends.
It's like, good for you thatyou're thinking about it, but
get really clean and reallyhonest about, you know, what do
(20:18):
you need?
And if you need to spend timewith him, communicate that in a
respectful, healthy way and justsay, hey, I know you're gonna
want to see your friends, but Ijust want to let you know
sometime during the weeks atyour home, I want to have some
time with you too.
So can you carve out some timewith me?
I mean, just something thatsimple, right?
Is respectful, it's honoring,it's communicating value, it's
saying I'm not assuminganything.
(20:40):
And it's it's it's starting totreat them as the adults that
they are that they've not beenaccustomed to being treated like
that before.
So it's a great way to practice,you know, this the season of
transition because they'relearning to put on the adult,
you know, role themselves.
(21:00):
They're gonna need practice atthat.
But we also have to have graceand we have to let them show
them, you know, we get this isnew to you.
And so, but I just want you toknow you're you're important to
me, and I just want to have sometime.
I mean, they want to please usstill.
If we have done any decent, anydecent job, they want to please
(21:22):
us, they don't want to be atodds with us, but we have to
also release them to do whatthey were created to do, which
is now fly and learn and growand fall and make mistakes and
pick themselves up.
Those are the things that we geta chance to be to have a front
row seat to watch, which is sucha gift, right?
It's such an incredible gift.
(21:43):
Uh I have two children.
My son is 41, my daughter is 40,and I've been in great
conversations with them justthis week.
Um he lives, my son lives inSingapore, so we have to be a
little bit more coordinated withhis timing schedule.
But I was thinking back aboutall the lessons that they've
taught me, that they have beenthe greatest teachers of my
(22:04):
life, the greatest teachers ofwhat really mattered, the
greatest teachers of humility,the greatest teachers of love.
I just, I just recall that fromthe from day one, my son's
birthday was on Saturday, and Ihe was adopted, he's adopted.
Um, I didn't get to hold himuntil the 15th.
And I remember when I held himfor the first time, that it was
(22:26):
really the first time in my lifethat I felt that I was loved and
I hadn't earned it.
That it was simply God justloving me and giving me this
incredible gift of this child.
And I just remember from thatmoment on how God used him and
my daughter to really teach meabout what really matters.
(22:47):
And I they keep teaching me tothis day.
I keep learning from them and Ikeep growing.
And if we can look at that asthis is an opportunity for our
lives to be richer in ways wedidn't expect because we're
learning from them, not becausewe're telling them what to do or
having them meet ourexpectations or being an
extension of our unmet needs,which is so often the weight we
(23:11):
do put on them, then what we'regonna do is really free them to
really live in the fullness ofthe identity which God created
them for, instead of trying tolive in the identity that we
designed for them because we hada need to be special or
important and they're gonna dowhat we couldn't do.
So we have a lot of work to doas parents.
(23:34):
We got to clean up some stuffand we need to look in the
mirror and we need to start withourselves because the healthier
we are, the more we can bring tothe table to them in their adult
years and really free them tobe, like I said, their best
version.
But if they're if they're doingcleanup duty on our unmet needs,
(23:55):
on our dysfunction, we are aburden.
We are not a blessing.
SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
And that's not God's heart.
That's not God's heart.
That is not what he wants forour family.
I want to go back to the verybeginning of the interview when
you said, you know, parentingyour adult children beyond 18
years, because so many times wehear as parents who are raising
school age kids that you all,you know, you got 18 summers
(24:24):
with them, or, you know, thatjust that like it all ends when
they turn 18 and they graduatefrom high school.
Then they fly the nest and ourjob is done.
And I'm not hearing that messagefrom you.
I'm hearing you say, foster thisrelationship, build this
relationship on a foundation oftrust and safety, that nothing
(24:48):
that you do or say, no matterwhat labels or diagnoses you
have, you're not going toseparate yourself from our love.
It's always safe here.
We can talk about things withoutbig blow ups and big reactions,
and we can work as a teamthrough these things.
That that is so importantbecause you're still continuing
(25:10):
to parent your children whenthey are adults in a different
way.
But I'm hearing this messagelike your parenting years of
parenting adults are far greaterthan this, you know, platform
from zero to 18.
And so talk a little bit aboutthat.
(25:31):
Like, how do you think adultkids feel about or think about,
you know, being parented stillby their parents?
SPEAKER_00 (25:42):
It's all in our howl.
If I continue to parent adultchildren the way I parented them
when they were living at home,that relationship will become
distant.
It will not work because itlacks the respect that comes
with being an adult, right?
But if I embrace my adultchildren with honor and respect
(26:06):
and curiosity, if I refrain fromtelling them what to do and
being very quick to give myopinions, but I really seek to
understand how they're thinkingand how I can support them and
you know, and create theenvironment that says, you can
come to me when something'stough and I'm not gonna judge
(26:26):
you and I'm not gonna talk toother people about it because
this is your story to tell, it'snot mine.
That is the kind of parentingthat adults want in their lives
from the people who brought theminto the world because they have
history, there is love, there istrust.
If we've, you know, if wecontinue to fan the flame of
(26:47):
what we started, but we're ableto make the shifts that go with
respect, respecting them forwhere they are developmentally,
then they're gonna come back tous.
They're gonna seek out ourcounsel, they're gonna want to
know, hey, mom, can I run thisby you?
And then that's when we getinvited to share our thoughts
(27:09):
and to share opinions.
But if we are imposing our willor dictating our pleasure or our
approval based upon theirchoices and their decisions,
then what's gonna happen iswe're gonna, we are gonna create
the walls, we're gonna burn thebridge.
And so I didn't bring mychildren into the world to just
send them off at 18.
(27:31):
I brought them into the world tohave a relationship with them to
the very last breath of my bodybecause I loved them with a love
that I didn't even know waspossible.
And I don't, and I want them tofeel that love to the very last
breath of my body.
And even long after I'm gone, ifI have done my job well, they
(27:51):
will walk securely and knowingthat they were loved deeply and
as well as a human being couldhave done it.
And that will give themsomething in their essence and
in their soul that they can thenpass on to their next
generation, whatever that maylook like.
So I think we need to broadenour definition because some of
(28:14):
our most impactful days areactually could be ahead of us.
And let me I just want to sharethis quick story.
My dad was a great father forthe first five years of my life.
Um, there was an event that'stoo long, probably, for me to
share, but that changed him.
And for the next 20 years, hewas a very difficult, demanding
father.
I knew he loved me, but heexpected perfectionism from me,
(28:36):
publicly would call me out infront of the congregation for no
reason whatsoever, um, was verytough on me.
I I can't even begin to putwords on how tough it was.
And I remember the drastic shiftfrom being five when he changed,
and all of a sudden he was nolonger that kind of dad.
And then I tried, you know, tostay under the radar because I
(28:58):
didn't want to be seen becausethat meant I would be further
ashamed.
At 15, I got up the courage togo meet him at his office to set
up an appointment.
And I walked and I said, Dad, Iwant to have a good relationship
with you.
And um what I want to talk aboutthat.
And he threw me out of hisoffice, and so I didn't um try
again until I was 25.
(29:19):
At 25, at that point, I wasmarried.
I'd had three years of therapy.
I was a therapist at that point,and so I made another
appointment and I said, Hey dad,I want to talk about a
relationship.
And in that moment, my dad saidto me, I made a lot of mistakes
with you.
And he said, I can't undo what Idid.
And he said, Kathy, only thing Ican do is give me one my word
(29:41):
that I will be the dad that youneed moving forward, not the dad
that you had.
In that moment, I felt seen, Ifelt heard, I felt known, and I
felt loved.
And for the next 30 some oddyears of my life, I had the most
amazing father who could nothave been better to me.
(30:04):
He redeemed, he restored, heloved well, he he was so
respectful, he was stillprotective, he was kind, he
asked my opinion.
I mean, I could never have askedfor anything more.
And the reason I share that ismaybe some of us out there have
really not done a great job inour first 15 to 20 years.
(30:25):
Maybe we blew it, maybe we werea hot mess and we didn't start
getting our acts together tillnow.
But I'm gonna tell you that it'snever too late to be a great
parent.
It is never too late to rightthe wrong, and we can't dictate
how quickly our children willreceive it, we can't dictate how
(30:48):
fast they'll build trust with usagain.
But we have to give it a shot.
We have to know that in themidst of us being maybe the mess
that we were, that we took itseriously and we owned our part
of that, and we went to them andwe humbly said we're sorry, and
(31:09):
gave us, give us, and hopefullythey'll give us that chance to
continue to redeem it and tolearn and to grow and and see
what God would have in store forthe future.
I just don't think we can quit.
I think we have to keep trying.
You know, God never quits on us,ever, no matter how many times
we blow it.
(31:30):
But I think we also can't quiton our kids, no matter how many
times they blow it.
Now, that doesn't mean we don'thave boundaries.
That doesn't mean that we're nothealthy.
It doesn't mean that sometimeswe have to have real clarity on
what's acceptable and what'snot, because sometimes these
circumstances in life are prettysevere and pretty tough.
But it doesn't mean that wedon't have the right heart.
(31:52):
We can always have the rightheart.
And that's the thing between usand God.
We just say, You know, I'mscared.
You know, uh, I'm a big believerin truth telling and with Jesus
and say, you know, here's what'strue, Jesus.
Right now, I'm not happy, but Idon't want to show up and be
punishing and or show up and andbe unkind or show up and be
(32:12):
reactive.
We got to be truthful with himso we can then be honoring with
our our children.
And it will be a magnet thatdraws them to us when we are the
healthiest versions of ourselvesand we can own our stuff.
There's safety in that, andthere's respect in that, and
there's honor in that, and trustcan be built.
(32:32):
And our generation of adultchildren have need us more now
than ever before to be solid andto be that wall that they can
bounce against without us beingthe reaction and the rejection
and the shamer.
So we have work to do.
And my heart is to quote helpevery parent out there that
(32:55):
wants to know how to make thathappen.
God's in the business ofrestoring, and that's that's
what I think He wants to do withthis generation of parents with
adult children.
SPEAKER_01 (33:07):
Amen, Kathy.
That was so well said.
I love your message of hope.
It's never too late, but also asense of urgency.
Our kids need us now.
The culture is throwing so muchat us that goes against our
fundamental beliefs and faithand morals.
(33:27):
And we want to raise kids whostand strong in their moral
character, who, you know, whosethey are and how to keep their
faith out there when everythingis going crazy.
And we have to be thatfoundation of trust and support
for them at home, even when weare navigating these things for
(33:48):
the first time, you know,experiencing it along with them.
I think this message, what Ihear you saying really, is like
this is a journey where we areside by side.
SPEAKER_00 (34:00):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
We are partnering together in life.
This is your place to come backto to know that everything's on
the table, above the table,nothing's under the rug.
Like we can have, you know,reasonable conversations where
we respect each other'sopinions, politely may disagree,
but at the end, love each otherthrough it.
(34:23):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (34:25):
You know, one last thing, Jordan, that's I think
really important is for parentsto understand.
And that is there are going tobe times and seasons in our
adult children's lives thatwe're going to grieve.
We may grieve the fact that theymade choices that have
consequences that will be withthem the rest of their lives.
But we need to grieve.
(34:45):
We don't need to share thatgrief with our adult children,
but we need to be able to mournthe loss so that way we can heal
and we can release so we can befully present for where they are
now.
And when we don't do that, wehold on tightly to what we
thought should have been, andthat's when we can become
(35:07):
punishing, or that's when we canbe wounding.
And nothing good comes fromthat.
But most of us don't want to dothe grief because we don't want
to feel the pain.
The fact is we're feeling thepain anyway.
But let's go ahead and feel itso we can get it behind us and
not carry it with us.
And that's what I think mostpeople don't appreciate.
The purpose of grief is for usto be able to get through it and
(35:32):
not to carry it forever.
So I just think it's importantthat we throw that element into
our understanding that, yeah,sometimes things happen and we
can't fix that.
But we can grieve and moveforward and heal.
SPEAKER_01 (35:48):
Thank you for giving us permission to just be in our
grief and to expect to walkthrough it, that that's the
point of grief is for us toacknowledge our feelings, maybe
some disappointments or somewrongs on our own part, but that
if we feel those things, thenwhat you're saying is we can
(36:09):
heal that as well.
And so what you feel you canheal so that then you can get
back in a place ofreconciliation with your adult
child and have thatrelationship.
You can close that gap, you canbuild that bridge back so that
there's not that distance orestrangement because you have
(36:30):
worked on your stuff separateand apart from your child, so
that you have the ability totruly be present for them, not
being present while you'remanaging all your own stuff that
keeps bubbling over because it'snot dealt with.
SPEAKER_00 (36:45):
Right.
It's so true.
And I think one other thoughtwith for parents to pay
attention to is that when theystart to get angry, they start
to get upset, to ask thequestion, what is it that I'm
scared of?
If you can get to the root causeof your fear, you can
de-escalate your anger and thenyou can really address the real
(37:05):
issue.
Because behind all the anger isfear, fear of something.
We may not know what it isimmediately, but if we'll take
the time to step back and reallysit with it and ask the Lord,
show me what is it that I'mscared of here that's that's
causing this reaction that'scausing, you know, and and for
(37:28):
me, I will tell you when I startto have that fear, I always go
back, it's a part of my faithwhere he's saying, You're not
trusting me with this.
You know, this is I know this isreally close to your heart, and
you're not trusting me withthis.
I'll give you a personalexample.
My daughter has had severehealth issues for a very, very
long time, and um, she's dealingwith infertility.
(37:51):
She's 40 and she was born to bea mom.
And I get scared that she won'tbe one.
And I have to take that to himand say, I don't understand, but
I'm gonna choose to trust youanyway.
And and I'm but I'm scared.
And I'm scared because I'mscared for her pain.
(38:12):
I'm scared because I know howbad she wants one.
And so I'm just gonna tell you,Jesus, I I'm scared for her, and
I'm scared for for me.
And I just hand it to him.
So today I'm gonna hand it toyou, and I'm not gonna, I'm not
gonna pick it up again.
It's yours today.
And I let him have it.
And I walk away and I just thenmove forward thinking, okay,
(38:37):
Catherine, let's talk aboutwhat's true.
What's true is he's in he's inthe business of restoring
health, he's in the business ofbeing of being the giver of
life.
He is not limited by age.
He is not limited.
So I go off and saying, let's,we're gonna focus on what's
true.
And then I can then have a greatday because I am now focusing on
what is true, on who he is,versus my focus being on
(39:01):
circumstances that I have nocontrol over.
So I just think life's alwaysabout practicing, right?
Always about learning, alwaysabout being, I think for me,
it's always about being reallyhonest.
I'm I'm a big believer that Godprefers real over good.
And so therefore, real for memeans being really honest.
And sometimes my honesty isn'treally pretty.
You know, it's really blunt andvery direct, but he loves me
(39:24):
anyway, just like I love mineanyway.
So I just think if we can keepit real, keep it honest, and
keep our focus on the one who isin charge of it all, you know,
that's that's where our poweris, and that's where our
strength lies.
SPEAKER_01 (39:40):
And amen.
Amen.
Catherine Hickam, you have justdone a beautiful job of giving
us a practical way to let go ofsome of this stuff.
It's surrendering, it'ssurrendering to God.
The worries on our hearts, thefears that plague us and keep us
(40:01):
from having a close relationshipwith our kids is just a personal
conversation with God, not thiscrazy religious words and all
these special prayers.
You don't have to do it thatway.
It'll be, like you said, heprefers honest over good and
just wants to hear from us,wants to know our hearts.
If we knock, the door will beopened and he will answer these
(40:23):
prayers.
And I love how you alsoencourage us to remind ourselves
of the truth.
Because when we get in ourfears, we start telling
ourselves all these lies thatabsolutely do not line up with
what God is or does for us orwants for our lives.
And so just getting back to thatplace, whether you have those
written down somewhere or youhave a special book or your
(40:45):
Bible or whatever it is thathelps you remember the truth of
your faith to go back to that.
And the way you talk about this,Catherine, is so awesome because
it reminds me of the book ofyours that I just read.
I just read your book, Heaven inHer Arms, Why God Chose Mary to
Raise His Son and What It Meansfor You.
(41:07):
This is a beautiful book.
Could you talk just a minuteabout this book and your
inspiration for writing it, andthen tell people where they
could find you and this book sothat they can continue on this
journey with you?
Oh, well, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (41:20):
Um, you know, every little girl when she grows up,
if she has been uh a part of thea Christmas pageant, she always
wanted to play the role of Mary,right?
Because that was like the starof the nativities.
And she was the one whoscripture so when I started
reading it, I started saying,there's so much here.
And so I heard Jesus say to me,I want you to read my story
(41:43):
about Mary every day for sixmonths.
So I did, every day for sixmonths.
And what he showed me, therewere 17 verses, and in every
verse there was a rich truthabout why he selected her
because I always was curious,how come she got picked?
She was 14.
How did she get picked?
What made her special?
And he showed me in every versewhat made her special.
(42:05):
And I was like, oh my goodness,this is such, this is so rich
and so powerful.
And I thought, I just need tolet other people know what he
showed me.
So I sat down and I wrote thisbook on explaining my impression
of why he picked her.
But the last chapter in chapter18 was what he did in her, he
(42:27):
can do in us, and that all thequalities that were manifested
in who she was is his heart forhis people.
And so we too could have thevery qualities in the essence of
her being if we dare to trusthim the way she dared to trust
him.
And so that was my that was myheart for writing that book.
(42:47):
You can reach me atparentingadultchildren
today.com.
I'm I'm also on TikTok andInstagram.
And so um I try to get messagesout there pretty frequently on
how to encourage and address thecurrent issues that I think are
really impacting parents ofadult children.
And next year I do have a bookcoming out called It's Never Too
Late to Be a Great Parent.
(43:09):
And so, because I want people tohave that kind of hope.
SPEAKER_01 (43:13):
Well, thank you so much, Catherine.
You have really blessed us withjust how to bridge this gap in
parenting adult children and howwe can do things today to stay
connected with our childrenthrough the years and avoid
estrangement and distance andjust have the type of love
between us that God wants forus.
(43:35):
I think you're gonna have a lotof people reaching out to you.
I want to repeat your website,parentingadultchildren today dot
com,parentingadultchildrentoday.com.
And if you want to grab a copyof Catherine's book, you love
her style, how she's talking onthe podcast today, I can tell
this is just who you are,unscripted, just from your
(43:58):
heart.
Pick up a copy of her book,Heaven in Her Arms, Why God
Chose Mary to Raise His Son, andwhat it means for you.
Catherine, it's been such apleasure.
I want to personally thank youfor your obedience to God's call
(44:18):
on your life, because you sharedwith us that God put it on your
heart to sit down with scriptureand read his story every day for
six months.
If that is the only message youget out of this, I want you to
hear, parents, clear time forGod in your life because that's
(44:39):
how you hear from him.
He has a very specific messagefor you.
And it may be something moresimple than what Catherine
heard.
Read something every day for sixmonths.
Um, but he wants you to listenand he has a very specific
message for each one of usparents.
So set aside a little time eachday to hear from God and expect
(45:03):
a nudge from him in one way orthe other.
Guys, I'll catch you on anotherepisode of the Families of
Character show real soon.
Thanks for tuning in, and we'llbe back with another episode
next week.
Parents, here's a sober reality.
One in four adults today aredistant or even estranged from
their parents.
That means when our kids growup, the odds are high that they
also might not want us in theirlives if we don't get
intentional right now about howwe parent.
(00:51):
Welcome back to the show.
I'm your host, Jordan Langdon.
And as moms and dads of youngkids, it's easy to sort of think
about that and go, you knowwhat, Jordan, this is a someday
problem, right?
Something we'll figure out whenthey're teenagers or in college.
But the truth is, guys, that thefoundation for a close lifelong
(01:13):
bond with our children is beingbuilt in these everyday moments
of parenting.
That's why I'm so excited fortoday's guest, Catherine Hickam.
For over 40 years, Catherine'sbeen walking parents through the
messy and complicated emotionsof conflict, change, and growth.
(01:36):
And she, like me, is a licensedclinical social worker.
She's a psychotherapist and anexecutive coach who has truly
dedicated her life to helpingpeople build healthy and lasting
relationships.
And today she's bringing herwisdom to a topic almost no one
is talking about.
How to raise kids who want tostay close to you into
(02:00):
adulthood.
This is one of thoseconversations that could change
the way you see your role as aparent forever.
So if you've ever wondered, am Idoing enough to make sure my
kids want me in their liveslater when they're adults and
having kids, stick around.
Catherine has answers and youdon't want to miss them.
(02:21):
Catherine, welcome to our show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Catherine, you have worked withfamilies for over 40 years.
So share with us what firstsparked your passion for really
helping parents build theselasting bonds with their kids.
What was sort of the aha momentthat made you realize so many
(02:45):
parent-child relationships areat risk of drifting apart?
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
I was working with uh parents of children under the
age of 18.
And what I noticed was there somany parents would come and say
to me, I am I doing it right?
I'm so scared, I'm gonna mess itup.
And my first thought to them wasthe fact that you're even aware
that you're asking the questionsays you have a pretty good shot
(03:10):
of not messing it up because youcare and you're you're hungry to
grow and to learn.
But what I also realized at thattime, we had a lot of parents
that were not knowing how todeal with conflict.
And when people don't know howto get deal with conflict, they
either go into denial or they gointo avoidance or they just cut
people off.
And then now we have a biggerproblem because we are not
(03:33):
modeling what healthy conflictresolution looks like.
And if you have a family thatyou really love, like someone in
your like your children, thelast thing you could ever
imagine was not having aconnection to them.
And so I had come across thisfamily that these parents they
came to me and they said, We'venot seen our children in six
(03:53):
years.
They won't talk to us, we haveno idea why.
And we are brokenhearted.
We have a grandchild we've neverseen.
We're not allowed to be in theirlives in any way, shape, or
form.
We don't know what to do.
And the pain that was in theirfaces and this the weeping just
moved me in such a manner that Ithought, this is so not right.
(04:18):
This was not God's heart.
This there's some pain in herethat has not been acknowledged.
There, there's something goingon.
And I and I began to payattention.
And as I began to look around, Iwas like, oh my goodness, this
is this isn't just this family.
This has become a major, majorissue.
(04:39):
And so I thought, all right,someone needs to be paying
attention to what it's like toparent in the adult years, you
know, and I went and lookedonline, I went and did all this
research.
Very, very, very little waswritten on parenting in the
adult years.
And I'm like, you're a parent inthe adult years far longer than
(05:00):
you are when they're living inyour home.
At least if you're healthy,that's you know, that could go
on 40, 50 years.
Um, my mom's still alive, she's90 years old.
So that, you know, I'm stillbeing parented by somebody.
And think of all those yearsthat could have been wasted in
families that didn't talk toeach other.
(05:21):
And so it just, I think it wasGod's desire to put this burden
on my heart to the point wherehe wouldn't let me not pay
attention to it.
And so I think he has a love forfamilies that goes be way beyond
what most therapists andspecialists have looked at.
And I think he says, now's thetime.
Now's the time that we payattention.
(05:42):
We've got to create healing.
Our our world needs families tobe strong.
And if there's brokenness andfractures, it's not gonna
happen.
And I saw it so magnified duringCOVID that the the severity, and
it I'm not taking sides one wayor the other, the severity of
what it did to families caused abreakdown.
(06:05):
And I see it even today.
I I was talking to somebody lastweek who um whose uncle will not
let anybody in the family cometo their home still after all
these years, if they didn't lineup on the same side of his
belief system as he did.
So the division is deep, andchildren and young adults are
suffering because they don'tfeel safe to go to talk with
(06:29):
their parents, but parents arealso kind of oblivious as to the
damage that they're creatingwith good intentions, but
they're still creating wallsinstead of bridges.
And I'm here about buildingbridges.
I the walls have got to gobecause the walls are a hundred
feet high in some families,which is really crushing the
future generations because thisis grandchildren are seeing the
(06:52):
disconnect between their parentsand their grandparents, and they
don't understand.
So now's the time for us toreally say, okay, what can we do
in order to restore and repairthe brokenness that's happening
in today's family?
And that and that was that waswhere I started.
And I'll tell you the story thatreally, really got my heart.
(07:13):
My daughter was home fromcollege between her junior and
senior year, and one of herfriends came to visit.
And we'll call him Jason.
And so we were having lunch, andTiff had left the room.
That's my daughter, and Jasonsaid to me, Mrs.
Hickam, did you know thatTiffany is the only friend that
I have who is the same in frontof her parents as she is behind
(07:34):
their back?
And I said, Really?
And he said, Yeah, the only one.
And I said, Well, what aboutyou, Jason?
Are you the same?
He said, Oh no, absolutely not.
And I said, Well, why is that?
And he said, Miss Sickum, I knowwhat my parents' expectations of
me are.
And he said, and when I don'tlive up to them, my mom cries
(07:56):
and my dad gets mad.
So I've just decided that whenI'm with them, I'll be who they
want me to be.
And when I walk out the door,I'll go back to being myself.
SPEAKER_01 (08:06):
But that gives me the chills, Catherine.
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
It just broke me.
It broke me.
And I said, I'm so sorry.
And he said, It's okay, MissSickum.
It's the normal for me andeverybody else.
SPEAKER_01 (08:19):
And that's when you realize this is not just him.
This is a majority of youngadults who leave home and they
say, I remember how it was.
I know exactly what's going tohappen.
Mom's going to break down.
Then I'm supposed to feel badthat I've hurt her feelings
because now it's about her beinghurt.
And dad is going to be angrythat I caused mom to cry.
(08:41):
And so we don't go there, shoveit under the rug, get back in
line into how I'm expected tobe.
And then all will be well andthe boat will not be rocked.
That's exactly what's happening.
And then, Catherine, what makesme think of something else is
that as adults, we're likelooking at our kids going, like,
oh, it seems like you're wearinga mask.
(09:03):
You know, why are you out thereat college?
Just be yourself.
And it's like, well, what are wedoing as parents to cause them
to put on a mask in the firstplace, right?
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
That's exactly right.
And there lies a major issuebecause they learn to live
double lives.
They learn to live the life thatthey think we want them to live.
So we will be happy.
So we won't be upset with them.
So they don't have to deal withour disappointment, which just
kills them.
They don't want to feelrejected.
(09:33):
They don't want to take the riskof losing the fact they may not
be loved the same way.
I can't tell you the number ofyoung adults who've said to me,
if I told my mom or dad thingsthat I've done or things that
I've participated in, they wouldnever, ever, ever treat me the
same.
And whether it's true or not,it's the fear that is driving
(09:56):
the relationship.
It's no longer truth, because itcould be true, it could not be
true, but it's fear.
So fear is now driving theserelationships.
And so I've never seen a gooddecision made out of fear, to be
honest with you.
No.
Ever.
Right?
So now we have these, thisgeneration have learned I can't
(10:18):
be who I am because it's notacceptable.
So now they'll go find friendswhere it will be acceptable.
Those friends may not be thewisest counsel.
So what happens when they reallyget into trouble?
I was reading some research fromthe Pew Institute, and it said,
I think the the statistic was44% of adult children would tell
(10:40):
their parent if they were introuble with a mental health
problem.
Okay, only 44%.
So that means 56% won't tell.
Well, when the stats are 36.2%of adult children between 18 and
25 have a mental illness.
(11:02):
Where are these young adultsgoing to go if they're in
trouble?
Who will they talk to?
Who can they trust?
So you see, we have to be reallyclear about our expectations.
And what parents don't seem tounderstand is they've lived with
us.
They lived with us for 18 years.
They know our biases, ourprejudices, they've heard us
(11:23):
talk about other people, they'veheard us be judgmental.
They know us probably in someways better than we know
ourselves.
So we can't fool them.
The only thing we could do issit down and have a really
important conversation and justsay, hey, I want to talk about
something.
And that is, I want to make sureyou understand that there is
nothing you could ever bring tome that would ever cause me not
(11:46):
to stand by you and to not loveyou with everything that I am.
And yeah, I'm gonna own the factthat there have been times you
probably heard me be critical ofother people and maybe critical
of your friends.
I own that.
And that wasn't right of me.
But I also want to make one morething clear to you.
Nothing will ever cause me notto love you well.
(12:08):
I may not understand you, I maynot even can get my hands around
your choices, but nothing everwill cause me not to love you.
Do you know how incrediblyempowering that would be and
healing that would be just tohave that simple conversation
with adult children?
(12:28):
Yeah, that would be the healing,it would restore hope, it would
restore a sense of safety, itwould restore a sense of they do
love me, right?
And I think we need that.
This country needs this, theworld needs this.
And so we need to look atourselves as parents and say,
(12:53):
what could they have learned inmy home that I really didn't
want them to learn?
SPEAKER_01 (12:57):
Yes.
And then you're talking aboutgoing to them.
They're adults right now.
You can do this even whenthey're teenagers or when
they're young, right?
Is saying, I messed up.
You witnessed some things in ourhome that I wish you wouldn't
have, you know, the way wetalked to each other or the
criticism we had about the theJoneses and when they decided
(13:19):
to, you know, move to Kansas inthe middle of COVID and we
thought that was crazy orwhatever.
Like, you know, we shouldn'thave judged.
And a matter of fact, peoplehave free will to do what they
want, and that means you do andI do, and and that we are
responsible for ourselves anddoing the right things.
But there is just absolutelynothing that you can do that
(13:43):
would separate you from me andmy love for you.
I mean, where does this messagecome from?
Straight from scripture, right?
SPEAKER_00 (13:51):
Straight from scripture.
It is the heart of God, right?
And when we can do that with ourchildren, that is the closest
manifestation of God Himselfliving himself out in us to
them.
Because I grew up in the church.
My father was a minister.
I was married to a minister for35 years.
I understand the body of Christreally well.
(14:12):
And I understand it can also beone of the most harsh, difficult
places to be in terms ofcomparison and judgment.
And sometimes the church is notsafe.
Sometimes it's a fabulous place.
But sometimes we learn greatthings and sometimes we learn
not so great things.
And our generation of children,until recently, had moved far
(16:01):
away from the church.
And there are reasons for it.
And it started with judgment.
It started with not feeling thatthey belonged, they weren't
safe, they couldn't bethemselves.
They will go look for places tofind acceptance.
And not all those places arealways good places.
But they're looking for love andthey're looking for acceptance.
(16:23):
And if they can't find it athome, they will go wherever they
need to go to find it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
That's how strong the need for acceptance really
is.
Think about Maslow's hierarchyof needs, you know, and you got
the most basic right front andcenter.
You got to have food and waterand shelter and love, right?
And love to any human being issomeone denying themselves to
(16:52):
serve us, to just be open andsaying, This is not about me.
This relationship is about youcoming to me in full
vulnerability, you know, at yourdarkest hour and saying, You're
the person that I'm trusting inmy life as my mom or my dad to
(17:12):
just lay it out here and tellyou this is what's going on with
me.
We had this conversation withour teenage son, right?
Where it's like, listen, you'vebeen through some stuff, you've
made some decisions that you'renot happy about and we're
confused about or whatever.
And you know what?
This is part of life.
You're discovering, you knowwhat who you are, what you
(17:34):
believe in, you know, how tostand up to people and peer
pressure, and you're gonna tripand fall.
We have tripped and falled, fella million times, and we still
are today.
That's why we continue toapologize to you as parents.
We continue to ask you forforgiveness, and we continue to
(17:55):
admit our wrongs to you becausethat is also modeling that it's
okay to admit your wrong and totake personal responsibility for
some choices that didn't line upreal well.
SPEAKER_00 (18:08):
Well, and and what you're giving him is the
opportunity for redemption,right?
Which is what Jesus gives usevery single second of the day.
We have an opportunity to beredeemed.
Unfortunately, when we'redealing with expectations, there
is this thing that if we don'tmeet expectations, if the young
adults don't meet expectations,they can be shamed.
(18:28):
And because it's it made theparents look bad, they hurt
their reputation, they were adisappointment on a grand scale.
And so as a result, that shamehas no place to go.
Guilt, you can do somethingabout.
Shame is a dead end, and itreally sours a person's sense of
(18:53):
their value.
And that's what happens whenexpectations play a really
unhealthy role in a in a family,right?
And so if we can get aware ofwhat all our expectations are,
we can start to clean them up orwe can start to get clear with
them, you know.
And I'll hear parents say, Oh, Idon't really have that many, you
(19:15):
know, they have their own lives.
And I'll I simply go, well,let's talk about the holidays.
And then it gets really quietbecause everybody has an opinion
about well, aren't you gonnacome here for Christmas?
Or I th we this what are wegonna do about our tradition?
We've always done it this way.
Something small doesn't seemlike that big of a deal, but
guess what?
(19:35):
It becomes a big deal, and nowwe have conflict, and now we
have hurt feelings, and now wehave mom crying because it's not
gonna look like it always haslooked.
So it can get real dicey reallyfast, and we don't see it as
parents.
We don't see all the differentways that we have these
expectations.
(19:56):
And um I heard a mom say to melast week, she said, yeah, she
said, you know, my child justwent away um to college for the
first time, and she said, I'malready wondering how much time
he's gonna spend with mewhenever he comes home from
college versus seeing all hisfriends.
It's like, good for you thatyou're thinking about it, but
get really clean and reallyhonest about, you know, what do
(20:18):
you need?
And if you need to spend timewith him, communicate that in a
respectful, healthy way and justsay, hey, I know you're gonna
want to see your friends, but Ijust want to let you know
sometime during the weeks atyour home, I want to have some
time with you too.
So can you carve out some timewith me?
I mean, just something thatsimple, right?
Is respectful, it's honoring,it's communicating value, it's
saying I'm not assuminganything.
(20:40):
And it's it's it's starting totreat them as the adults that
they are that they've not beenaccustomed to being treated like
that before.
So it's a great way to practice,you know, this the season of
transition because they'relearning to put on the adult,
you know, role themselves.
(21:00):
They're gonna need practice atthat.
But we also have to have graceand we have to let them show
them, you know, we get this isnew to you.
And so, but I just want you toknow you're you're important to
me, and I just want to have sometime.
I mean, they want to please usstill.
If we have done any decent, anydecent job, they want to please
(21:22):
us, they don't want to be atodds with us, but we have to
also release them to do whatthey were created to do, which
is now fly and learn and growand fall and make mistakes and
pick themselves up.
Those are the things that we geta chance to be to have a front
row seat to watch, which is sucha gift, right?
It's such an incredible gift.
(21:43):
Uh I have two children.
My son is 41, my daughter is 40,and I've been in great
conversations with them justthis week.
Um he lives, my son lives inSingapore, so we have to be a
little bit more coordinated withhis timing schedule.
But I was thinking back aboutall the lessons that they've
taught me, that they have beenthe greatest teachers of my
(22:04):
life, the greatest teachers ofwhat really mattered, the
greatest teachers of humility,the greatest teachers of love.
I just, I just recall that fromthe from day one, my son's
birthday was on Saturday, and Ihe was adopted, he's adopted.
Um, I didn't get to hold himuntil the 15th.
And I remember when I held himfor the first time, that it was
(22:26):
really the first time in my lifethat I felt that I was loved and
I hadn't earned it.
That it was simply God justloving me and giving me this
incredible gift of this child.
And I just remember from thatmoment on how God used him and
my daughter to really teach meabout what really matters.
(22:47):
And I they keep teaching me tothis day.
I keep learning from them and Ikeep growing.
And if we can look at that asthis is an opportunity for our
lives to be richer in ways wedidn't expect because we're
learning from them, not becausewe're telling them what to do or
having them meet ourexpectations or being an
extension of our unmet needs,which is so often the weight we
(23:11):
do put on them, then what we'regonna do is really free them to
really live in the fullness ofthe identity which God created
them for, instead of trying tolive in the identity that we
designed for them because we hada need to be special or
important and they're gonna dowhat we couldn't do.
So we have a lot of work to doas parents.
(23:34):
We got to clean up some stuffand we need to look in the
mirror and we need to start withourselves because the healthier
we are, the more we can bring tothe table to them in their adult
years and really free them tobe, like I said, their best
version.
But if they're if they're doingcleanup duty on our unmet needs,
(23:55):
on our dysfunction, we are aburden.
We are not a blessing.
SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
And that's not God's heart.
That's not God's heart.
That is not what he wants forour family.
I want to go back to the verybeginning of the interview when
you said, you know, parentingyour adult children beyond 18
years, because so many times wehear as parents who are raising
school age kids that you all,you know, you got 18 summers
(24:24):
with them, or, you know, thatjust that like it all ends when
they turn 18 and they graduatefrom high school.
Then they fly the nest and ourjob is done.
And I'm not hearing that messagefrom you.
I'm hearing you say, foster thisrelationship, build this
relationship on a foundation oftrust and safety, that nothing
(24:48):
that you do or say, no matterwhat labels or diagnoses you
have, you're not going toseparate yourself from our love.
It's always safe here.
We can talk about things withoutbig blow ups and big reactions,
and we can work as a teamthrough these things.
That that is so importantbecause you're still continuing
(25:10):
to parent your children whenthey are adults in a different
way.
But I'm hearing this messagelike your parenting years of
parenting adults are far greaterthan this, you know, platform
from zero to 18.
And so talk a little bit aboutthat.
(25:31):
Like, how do you think adultkids feel about or think about,
you know, being parented stillby their parents?
SPEAKER_00 (25:42):
It's all in our howl.
If I continue to parent adultchildren the way I parented them
when they were living at home,that relationship will become
distant.
It will not work because itlacks the respect that comes
with being an adult, right?
But if I embrace my adultchildren with honor and respect
(26:06):
and curiosity, if I refrain fromtelling them what to do and
being very quick to give myopinions, but I really seek to
understand how they're thinkingand how I can support them and
you know, and create theenvironment that says, you can
come to me when something'stough and I'm not gonna judge
(26:26):
you and I'm not gonna talk toother people about it because
this is your story to tell, it'snot mine.
That is the kind of parentingthat adults want in their lives
from the people who brought theminto the world because they have
history, there is love, there istrust.
If we've, you know, if wecontinue to fan the flame of
(26:47):
what we started, but we're ableto make the shifts that go with
respect, respecting them forwhere they are developmentally,
then they're gonna come back tous.
They're gonna seek out ourcounsel, they're gonna want to
know, hey, mom, can I run thisby you?
And then that's when we getinvited to share our thoughts
(27:09):
and to share opinions.
But if we are imposing our willor dictating our pleasure or our
approval based upon theirchoices and their decisions,
then what's gonna happen iswe're gonna, we are gonna create
the walls, we're gonna burn thebridge.
And so I didn't bring mychildren into the world to just
send them off at 18.
(27:31):
I brought them into the world tohave a relationship with them to
the very last breath of my bodybecause I loved them with a love
that I didn't even know waspossible.
And I don't, and I want them tofeel that love to the very last
breath of my body.
And even long after I'm gone, ifI have done my job well, they
(27:51):
will walk securely and knowingthat they were loved deeply and
as well as a human being couldhave done it.
And that will give themsomething in their essence and
in their soul that they can thenpass on to their next
generation, whatever that maylook like.
So I think we need to broadenour definition because some of
(28:14):
our most impactful days areactually could be ahead of us.
And let me I just want to sharethis quick story.
My dad was a great father forthe first five years of my life.
Um, there was an event that'stoo long, probably, for me to
share, but that changed him.
And for the next 20 years, hewas a very difficult, demanding
father.
I knew he loved me, but heexpected perfectionism from me,
(28:36):
publicly would call me out infront of the congregation for no
reason whatsoever, um, was verytough on me.
I I can't even begin to putwords on how tough it was.
And I remember the drastic shiftfrom being five when he changed,
and all of a sudden he was nolonger that kind of dad.
And then I tried, you know, tostay under the radar because I
(28:58):
didn't want to be seen becausethat meant I would be further
ashamed.
At 15, I got up the courage togo meet him at his office to set
up an appointment.
And I walked and I said, Dad, Iwant to have a good relationship
with you.
And um what I want to talk aboutthat.
And he threw me out of hisoffice, and so I didn't um try
again until I was 25.
(29:19):
At 25, at that point, I wasmarried.
I'd had three years of therapy.
I was a therapist at that point,and so I made another
appointment and I said, Hey dad,I want to talk about a
relationship.
And in that moment, my dad saidto me, I made a lot of mistakes
with you.
And he said, I can't undo what Idid.
And he said, Kathy, only thing Ican do is give me one my word
(29:41):
that I will be the dad that youneed moving forward, not the dad
that you had.
In that moment, I felt seen, Ifelt heard, I felt known, and I
felt loved.
And for the next 30 some oddyears of my life, I had the most
amazing father who could nothave been better to me.
(30:04):
He redeemed, he restored, heloved well, he he was so
respectful, he was stillprotective, he was kind, he
asked my opinion.
I mean, I could never have askedfor anything more.
And the reason I share that ismaybe some of us out there have
really not done a great job inour first 15 to 20 years.
(30:25):
Maybe we blew it, maybe we werea hot mess and we didn't start
getting our acts together tillnow.
But I'm gonna tell you that it'snever too late to be a great
parent.
It is never too late to rightthe wrong, and we can't dictate
how quickly our children willreceive it, we can't dictate how
(30:48):
fast they'll build trust with usagain.
But we have to give it a shot.
We have to know that in themidst of us being maybe the mess
that we were, that we took itseriously and we owned our part
of that, and we went to them andwe humbly said we're sorry, and
(31:09):
gave us, give us, and hopefullythey'll give us that chance to
continue to redeem it and tolearn and to grow and and see
what God would have in store forthe future.
I just don't think we can quit.
I think we have to keep trying.
You know, God never quits on us,ever, no matter how many times
we blow it.
(31:30):
But I think we also can't quiton our kids, no matter how many
times they blow it.
Now, that doesn't mean we don'thave boundaries.
That doesn't mean that we're nothealthy.
It doesn't mean that sometimeswe have to have real clarity on
what's acceptable and what'snot, because sometimes these
circumstances in life are prettysevere and pretty tough.
But it doesn't mean that wedon't have the right heart.
(31:52):
We can always have the rightheart.
And that's the thing between usand God.
We just say, You know, I'mscared.
You know, uh, I'm a big believerin truth telling and with Jesus
and say, you know, here's what'strue, Jesus.
Right now, I'm not happy, but Idon't want to show up and be
punishing and or show up and andbe unkind or show up and be
(32:12):
reactive.
We got to be truthful with himso we can then be honoring with
our our children.
And it will be a magnet thatdraws them to us when we are the
healthiest versions of ourselvesand we can own our stuff.
There's safety in that, andthere's respect in that, and
there's honor in that, and trustcan be built.
(32:32):
And our generation of adultchildren have need us more now
than ever before to be solid andto be that wall that they can
bounce against without us beingthe reaction and the rejection
and the shamer.
So we have work to do.
And my heart is to quote helpevery parent out there that
(32:55):
wants to know how to make thathappen.
God's in the business ofrestoring, and that's that's
what I think He wants to do withthis generation of parents with
adult children.
SPEAKER_01 (33:07):
Amen, Kathy.
That was so well said.
I love your message of hope.
It's never too late, but also asense of urgency.
Our kids need us now.
The culture is throwing so muchat us that goes against our
fundamental beliefs and faithand morals.
(33:27):
And we want to raise kids whostand strong in their moral
character, who, you know, whosethey are and how to keep their
faith out there when everythingis going crazy.
And we have to be thatfoundation of trust and support
for them at home, even when weare navigating these things for
(33:48):
the first time, you know,experiencing it along with them.
I think this message, what Ihear you saying really, is like
this is a journey where we areside by side.
SPEAKER_00 (34:00):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
We are partnering together in life.
This is your place to come backto to know that everything's on
the table, above the table,nothing's under the rug.
Like we can have, you know,reasonable conversations where
we respect each other'sopinions, politely may disagree,
but at the end, love each otherthrough it.
(34:23):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (34:25):
You know, one last thing, Jordan, that's I think
really important is for parentsto understand.
And that is there are going tobe times and seasons in our
adult children's lives thatwe're going to grieve.
We may grieve the fact that theymade choices that have
consequences that will be withthem the rest of their lives.
But we need to grieve.
(34:45):
We don't need to share thatgrief with our adult children,
but we need to be able to mournthe loss so that way we can heal
and we can release so we can befully present for where they are
now.
And when we don't do that, wehold on tightly to what we
thought should have been, andthat's when we can become
(35:07):
punishing, or that's when we canbe wounding.
And nothing good comes fromthat.
But most of us don't want to dothe grief because we don't want
to feel the pain.
The fact is we're feeling thepain anyway.
But let's go ahead and feel itso we can get it behind us and
not carry it with us.
And that's what I think mostpeople don't appreciate.
The purpose of grief is for usto be able to get through it and
(35:32):
not to carry it forever.
So I just think it's importantthat we throw that element into
our understanding that, yeah,sometimes things happen and we
can't fix that.
But we can grieve and moveforward and heal.
SPEAKER_01 (35:48):
Thank you for giving us permission to just be in our
grief and to expect to walkthrough it, that that's the
point of grief is for us toacknowledge our feelings, maybe
some disappointments or somewrongs on our own part, but that
if we feel those things, thenwhat you're saying is we can
(36:09):
heal that as well.
And so what you feel you canheal so that then you can get
back in a place ofreconciliation with your adult
child and have thatrelationship.
You can close that gap, you canbuild that bridge back so that
there's not that distance orestrangement because you have
(36:30):
worked on your stuff separateand apart from your child, so
that you have the ability totruly be present for them, not
being present while you'remanaging all your own stuff that
keeps bubbling over because it'snot dealt with.
SPEAKER_00 (36:45):
Right.
It's so true.
And I think one other thoughtwith for parents to pay
attention to is that when theystart to get angry, they start
to get upset, to ask thequestion, what is it that I'm
scared of?
If you can get to the root causeof your fear, you can
de-escalate your anger and thenyou can really address the real
(37:05):
issue.
Because behind all the anger isfear, fear of something.
We may not know what it isimmediately, but if we'll take
the time to step back and reallysit with it and ask the Lord,
show me what is it that I'mscared of here that's that's
causing this reaction that'scausing, you know, and and for
(37:28):
me, I will tell you when I startto have that fear, I always go
back, it's a part of my faithwhere he's saying, You're not
trusting me with this.
You know, this is I know this isreally close to your heart, and
you're not trusting me withthis.
I'll give you a personalexample.
My daughter has had severehealth issues for a very, very
long time, and um, she's dealingwith infertility.
(37:51):
She's 40 and she was born to bea mom.
And I get scared that she won'tbe one.
And I have to take that to himand say, I don't understand, but
I'm gonna choose to trust youanyway.
And and I'm but I'm scared.
And I'm scared because I'mscared for her pain.
(38:12):
I'm scared because I know howbad she wants one.
And so I'm just gonna tell you,Jesus, I I'm scared for her, and
I'm scared for for me.
And I just hand it to him.
So today I'm gonna hand it toyou, and I'm not gonna, I'm not
gonna pick it up again.
It's yours today.
And I let him have it.
And I walk away and I just thenmove forward thinking, okay,
(38:37):
Catherine, let's talk aboutwhat's true.
What's true is he's in he's inthe business of restoring
health, he's in the business ofbeing of being the giver of
life.
He is not limited by age.
He is not limited.
So I go off and saying, let's,we're gonna focus on what's
true.
And then I can then have a greatday because I am now focusing on
what is true, on who he is,versus my focus being on
(39:01):
circumstances that I have nocontrol over.
So I just think life's alwaysabout practicing, right?
Always about learning, alwaysabout being, I think for me,
it's always about being reallyhonest.
I'm I'm a big believer that Godprefers real over good.
And so therefore, real for memeans being really honest.
And sometimes my honesty isn'treally pretty.
You know, it's really blunt andvery direct, but he loves me
(39:24):
anyway, just like I love mineanyway.
So I just think if we can keepit real, keep it honest, and
keep our focus on the one who isin charge of it all, you know,
that's that's where our poweris, and that's where our
strength lies.
SPEAKER_01 (39:40):
And amen.
Amen.
Catherine Hickam, you have justdone a beautiful job of giving
us a practical way to let go ofsome of this stuff.
It's surrendering, it'ssurrendering to God.
The worries on our hearts, thefears that plague us and keep us
(40:01):
from having a close relationshipwith our kids is just a personal
conversation with God, not thiscrazy religious words and all
these special prayers.
You don't have to do it thatway.
It'll be, like you said, heprefers honest over good and
just wants to hear from us,wants to know our hearts.
If we knock, the door will beopened and he will answer these
(40:23):
prayers.
And I love how you alsoencourage us to remind ourselves
of the truth.
Because when we get in ourfears, we start telling
ourselves all these lies thatabsolutely do not line up with
what God is or does for us orwants for our lives.
And so just getting back to thatplace, whether you have those
written down somewhere or youhave a special book or your
(40:45):
Bible or whatever it is thathelps you remember the truth of
your faith to go back to that.
And the way you talk about this,Catherine, is so awesome because
it reminds me of the book ofyours that I just read.
I just read your book, Heaven inHer Arms, Why God Chose Mary to
Raise His Son and What It Meansfor You.
(41:07):
This is a beautiful book.
Could you talk just a minuteabout this book and your
inspiration for writing it, andthen tell people where they
could find you and this book sothat they can continue on this
journey with you?
Oh, well, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (41:20):
Um, you know, every little girl when she grows up,
if she has been uh a part of thea Christmas pageant, she always
wanted to play the role of Mary,right?
Because that was like the starof the nativities.
And she was the one whoscripture so when I started
reading it, I started saying,there's so much here.
And so I heard Jesus say to me,I want you to read my story
(41:43):
about Mary every day for sixmonths.
So I did, every day for sixmonths.
And what he showed me, therewere 17 verses, and in every
verse there was a rich truthabout why he selected her
because I always was curious,how come she got picked?
She was 14.
How did she get picked?
What made her special?
And he showed me in every versewhat made her special.
(42:05):
And I was like, oh my goodness,this is such, this is so rich
and so powerful.
And I thought, I just need tolet other people know what he
showed me.
So I sat down and I wrote thisbook on explaining my impression
of why he picked her.
But the last chapter in chapter18 was what he did in her, he
(42:27):
can do in us, and that all thequalities that were manifested
in who she was is his heart forhis people.
And so we too could have thevery qualities in the essence of
her being if we dare to trusthim the way she dared to trust
him.
And so that was my that was myheart for writing that book.
(42:47):
You can reach me atparentingadultchildren
today.com.
I'm I'm also on TikTok andInstagram.
And so um I try to get messagesout there pretty frequently on
how to encourage and address thecurrent issues that I think are
really impacting parents ofadult children.
And next year I do have a bookcoming out called It's Never Too
Late to Be a Great Parent.
(43:09):
And so, because I want people tohave that kind of hope.
SPEAKER_01 (43:13):
Well, thank you so much, Catherine.
You have really blessed us withjust how to bridge this gap in
parenting adult children and howwe can do things today to stay
connected with our childrenthrough the years and avoid
estrangement and distance andjust have the type of love
between us that God wants forus.
(43:35):
I think you're gonna have a lotof people reaching out to you.
I want to repeat your website,parentingadultchildren today dot
com,parentingadultchildrentoday.com.
And if you want to grab a copyof Catherine's book, you love
her style, how she's talking onthe podcast today, I can tell
this is just who you are,unscripted, just from your
(43:58):
heart.
Pick up a copy of her book,Heaven in Her Arms, Why God
Chose Mary to Raise His Son, andwhat it means for you.
Catherine, it's been such apleasure.
I want to personally thank youfor your obedience to God's call
(44:18):
on your life, because you sharedwith us that God put it on your
heart to sit down with scriptureand read his story every day for
six months.
If that is the only message youget out of this, I want you to
hear, parents, clear time forGod in your life because that's
(44:39):
how you hear from him.
He has a very specific messagefor you.
And it may be something moresimple than what Catherine
heard.
Read something every day for sixmonths.
Um, but he wants you to listenand he has a very specific
message for each one of usparents.
So set aside a little time eachday to hear from God and expect
(45:03):
a nudge from him in one way orthe other.
Guys, I'll catch you on anotherepisode of the Families of
Character show real soon.
Thanks for tuning in, and we'llbe back with another episode
next week.
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