From Horror Fan to Final Destination Bloodlines. How Jeffrey Reddick Changed Horror for Millennials.

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, it's Aaron here from the Fandom
Portals podcast.
I just wanted to introduce youto this episode where I have a
really great chat with JeffreyReddick, the creator of the
Final Destination franchise.
We dive into so much in thisepisode.
Not only do we talk about hisexperience on the Final
Destination franchise.
We also talk about bloodlinesand the cultural shift that's

(00:20):
occurring with horror movies,and we also deep dive into a
little bit to do with hishistory, his process and he's
just a really warm and awesomeguest to have on a podcast.
Guys.
Not only that, but he's areally great human as well.
He has a knack for storytellingand he also is very
appreciative of his fans andloves the genre of horror.
So I really hope you enjoy thisepisode with Jeffrey Reddick on

(00:42):
the Fandom Portals Podcast andthank you so much for listening.
Welcome to the Fandom PortalsPodcast, where we explore the

(01:03):
fandoms that help us learn andgrow.
Today we are joined by a veryspecial guest.
It's the mastermind and creatorbehind some of horror's most
iconic franchises.
He's a writer, producer anddirector in the industry.
It's Jeffrey Reddick, thecreator of the Final Destination
franchise.
He's a trailblazer in thehorror genre.
Jeffrey has turned his ideainto a cultural phenomenon that

(01:25):
changed how we look at fate,death, destiny and sometimes
some everyday accidents.
How are you going, jeffrey?
And happy 4th of July as well.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Happy 4th of.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
July.
How are you, aaron?
Very well, thank you, very wellindeed.
So first of all, thank you somuch for joining me on the
podcast.
It's great to have you on.
I wanted to start by asking youabout your career in horror,
because you've been writing inthe genre for quite a long time
now.
How did your passion for horrorturn into the career that

(01:55):
you've sort of made now?
Where did it all start for you?

Speaker 2 (01:58):
You know it all started when I was very young.
I just I fell in love with thehorror genre.
You know, me and my friendswhen we were way too young to be
watching horror films, justwatched.
You know, at first it wasalways just looking for like the
bloodiest movies we could find,like that was our thing.
And our parents weren't veryhappy that we were watching
horror.
But they were like, well, atleast we know, because we would

(02:19):
either watch it at my house ormy friend Calvin's house my
friend, like we were always atone of our three houses my house
or my friend Calvin's house, ormy friend, like we were always
at one of our three houses.
So they're like, well, at leastwe know where they are and
they're out of trouble.
So we'll let them.
We'll let them watch this.
But I saw the original Nightmareon Elm Street, which is kind of
my favorite.
Well, it's not kind of, it's myfavorite horror film of all
time and it really changed mylove for horror into like an

(02:40):
obsession, like cause I could.
I saw what that film like, allthe stuff that you could do.
I know there'd been a couple ofkind of reality bending horror
films before that, but I'd neverseen it done in that way.
And, you know, the concept wasbrilliant, the set pieces were
brilliant, the script wasbrilliant, freddie, you know,
iconic killer Nancy, iconicfinal girl.

(03:01):
So yeah, I just I that likemovie blew my mind.
And it's funny because thatactually led to my career,
because when I saw the film Iwent home and I banged out a
treatment for a prequel and,yeah, I'm 14.
This is like 19, not to datemyself, but it's 1984.
Like you know, I you know, andI lived in a trailer in the
hills of Kentucky, like nothingabout the film industry, I was

(03:23):
just this little hillbillyhorror fan.
And I went home and I bangedout a prequel idea and I mailed
it to Bob Shea.
I found out his address in NewYork and I mailed it to the head
of New Line Cinema and he sentit back and he's like you know,
we don't read unsolicitedmaterial, and so I had to look
up what that meant because I wasonly 14.
And then I was like, oh, and soI just wrote him back and I

(03:44):
sent it again and I'm like, look, sir, I've spent three dollars
on your movie, I think you can,or your movies.
So I think you could take fiveminutes to read my story and he
actually read it and he got backto me and him and his assistant
, joy Mann, who became like agodmother to me, she was just
the most amazing woman.
They stayed in touch with meand they would send me scripts
and they would just encourage me.

(04:05):
You know, obviously I didn't.
I was not a good writer at 14,not having ever even read a
script.
But they didn't tell me that,they just told me like positive
things to focus on and work on,and from age 14 to 19, you know,
from age 14 to 19, I stayed intouch with them and got scripts
and got better at writing.
I went to college in Kentuckyand studied theater because I

(04:26):
knew I always wanted to work inthe movie business.
And during the summer of mysophomore year I got a summer
grant and auditioned for theAmerican Academy of Dramatic
Arts in New York and I got in totheir summer program.
So I went there and when I wasin New York they offered me an
internship at New Line.
So I was 19 years old and inNew York and you know, I ended
up getting an agent, an actingagent, and I had an intern at

(04:50):
New Line, you know, which didNightmare on Elm Street, and I
was like 19.
And you know how, you knownaive but super optimistic, yeah
, and I was like, well, this isreally easy, I'm just going to
stay in New York and you know,not finish school and stay in
New York and just do it and cutto the reality, you know, of
life and acting and writing,kind of kicking in.

(05:12):
But the thing that I that was aconstant was I stayed at New
Line and they ended up creatinga position for me in house and
then I I worked there.
I ended up working there 11years.
You know, it was 19 when Istarted working there and I was
27, I think when I set up.
You know, new Line bought thetreatment for Final Destination
and then they had me write thefirst draft of it.

(05:33):
It was a long journey.
You know the, you know, wouldyou just say, the ages.
It doesn't sound maybe thatlong, but it was a long journey.
But also being in the studiowas so invaluable because it
taught me how movies are reallymade.
If you don't work in thebusiness, you know, and don't
know about it, you just think,oh, wow, they find a good script
and then they just make it andit's like, oh no, there are a

(05:55):
thousand little pieces anddecisions that go into like what
even gets to the point of beingconsidered, even gets to the
point of being considered.
And then you know, at new linethere was like these scripts
they had the scripts that weregreen lit and filming, then they
had the priority scripts theywere working on, then they had
the almost priority scripts, orwe were kind of, and then they
had the other scripts they wereworking on and then they had all

(06:16):
the scripts that were like ifwe get to them, but a lot of
times it was just end up nevergetting made.
So there was a.
You just saw how vast themachine was to actually get a
movie made.
So it helped.
It helped a lot with me notpersonally taking a rejection
Like being devastated if I had ascript passed on, because I
realized like I could see thedecision making processes and a

(06:39):
lot of times it wasn't about thescript, it was about, you know
there was something similar oryou know there was a focus on
comedy at that moment in time,so they were really focused on
con.
So there were a lot of thingsthat would go into it.
So it just helped me kind ofstay pretty zen.
You know, throughout this, youknow these many, many years in

(07:01):
the business.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
So it sounds like you've gone on a pretty big
learning journey and it wasreally good of the people at New
Line originally to foster thatpassion in you for writing and
creating, especially because Iknow that when I'm a teacher by
trade I know that a lot of thetimes the arts, especially kind
of writing and things like thatthey sometimes go by the wayside
, or they can at least.
But I really admire yourgumption and continuity to go

(07:26):
through and continue writing andtake that feedback, continue to
get better, because it soundslike you've learned along the
way and sometimes they say youdidn't know that the machine
behind Hollywood, as it were,but did that kind of help you to
originally push to get yourscreenplays looked at?
The fact that it was almostlike the naivety of youth, you
might say.
I think by the time I got toNew Line originally pushed to
get your, your sort ofscreenplays looked at the the
fact that you it was almost likethe naivety of youth, you might

(07:47):
say I think by the time I gotto new line, especially because
I read coverage that was done onthe scripts that they never
told me.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
They just told me the positive stuff to work on.
And then I read the coverage Iwas like, oh shit, like there's
so much I'd you know, I'm gladthey didn't tell me this stuff
when I was younger.
I would have, I would have quitwriting because you know
there's coverage like this isjust awful.
I have to step back because ofwhat you just said about being a
teacher, because that's that'sone of it's so funny that you
bring that up, because I'm goingback to Kentucky at the end of

(08:16):
August and you know we'rethey're talking about bringing,
like you know, more jobs andopportunities, especially like
in the arts.
Like you know, more jobs andopportunities, especially like
in the arts and that was one ofmy big things I was talking
about on our conference call wasthat A?
You know it's very frustratingthat the arts are kind of the
first thing to kind of be cutfrom school budgets and they're
not encouraged enough, becausearts not only are a way to help

(08:40):
people express themselves andcome out of their shell and help
discover who they are, but italso does keep them out of,
especially when you live inrural areas where there's not a
lot of stuff to do.
It keeps them out of troubleand it gives them a positive
outlet for their thing.
And teachers I got to get on myteacher rant because teachers
are so fucking important.
I always say this.
I'm not just saying thisbecause of you, but teachers are

(09:02):
so important and they've been.
Even when I was growing up,like I remember, our teachers
would have to bring pencils toschool because the schools
didn't get enough, have enoughmoney to pay for it.
So, especially in like ruralareas and poor areas, like
schools are underfunded.
They're always under.
You know, teachers do so muchand are under appreciated and
are valued.

(09:29):
If it weren't for my teacherslike my English teachers were
the ones who really, you know,pushed me about my writing and
was like you were really good.
And I had one teacher inparticular, ms Bellamy, who she
was an English teacher but overone semester she I talked her
into like doing like a talentshow for the school, and so all
the kids, like you know, fromthe athletes to the really
nervous, quiet kids, like we allcame together and like put on
this talent show that, like, thewhole town came to see and it
brought up, you know, and it wasso powerful to like bring all

(09:49):
these people together.
And I actually took MissBellamy to the premiere of Final
Destination in New York and wewere on the Rosie O'Donnell show
.
It's online because I hadpromised her, like when I make
it, like you know, I'm takingyou to the premiere of my movie,
so so, yeah, we brought her outto New York for the premiere

(10:11):
and the studio had us on theRosie O'Donnell show and it was
all because of the teacher thingand it's just, it's bravo to
you for being a teacher, cause Iknow that it is.
I know that you know howvaluable it is because you do it
, obviously, because you love it, and you know the positive
impact it can have on students.
But, yeah, I, that's just oneof my, one of my lifelong pet
peeves is how education alwaysseems to be under.

(10:32):
They're always trying to findsome reason to like, especially
with public teachers is to likeundercut and underpay and under
school.
You know the people that needaccess to schools the most and
it's um, so anyway, I won't rantabout everything you bring up,
but that is very near and dear.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
You know, teaching is very near and dear to my heart
and my journey no, I thinkthat's it's a really good and
honest point, because I reallydo love the, the work that I do
and I see students every daythat have these passions that
need to be fostered and some ofthe time, the creative energy
that these kids have it needs tokind of be supported and

(11:12):
fostered in that way.
So I'm glad that that happenedto you and shout out to Ms
Bellamy, was it, ms Bellamy?

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah yeah, she's no longer with us, unfortunately,
but her and Ms Murphy and Ms Imean I loved all my teachers,
but my English teachers were theones that really because I
wanted to act, but then actingwas a lot different, the
landscape was a lot different ifyou looked like me back in the
day for acting.
So I decided that writing wasthe best way to stay in the

(11:40):
business and the game.
So I've always had a fondnessfor my English teachers
especially, but I appreciatedall of them.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, and I think you know writing, but also within
the horror genre as well.
I'm, as I said to you before,I'm pretty new to the to the
horror genre and that's purelybecause I kind of had this, this
brain, where images kind ofstick in my head a little bit.
I've kind of avoided it becauseI don't want to have those
lingering sort of things.
But I've actually found thathorror has been a really good
medium to tell different kindsof stories and for the

(12:09):
exploration of various differentsort of personal beliefs or
whether it be, you know,exploring grief, trauma,
existential fears, things likethat.
Like there's a horror moviethat came out called the Beast
Within that stars Kit Haringtonand that was kind of like a big
allegory for stopping familialviolence and family trauma and

(12:29):
things like that.
So I found that through myjourney of going through the
horror genre it's actually alittle bit deeper and a little
bit more creative than what Ifirst thought it was.
So could I get your thoughts onhow horror can be like the
vehicle or the vessel for thingslike that, for people?

Speaker 2 (12:49):
especially coming from a writer like yourself.
Yeah, I mean, I think that'sbeen, that's kind of been the
quandary of horror creators forsuch a long time as is even when
you have a movie like ahereditary or I mean, get out,
got some accolades, buthereditary, or you know, you
have these, these movies thatare have a-list talent, you, you
know, working on them, doingamazing jobs.
The genre's always kind of beenseen as, like you know, the

(13:10):
black sheep of the film industryand you know, again, that's why
I fell in love with Nightmareon Elm Street, because I read
Fangoria as like the horror, theoldest kind of horror Bible
that's been around, as far aslike interviewing people.
That's been around.
As far as like interviewingpeople.
And so I would read all theseinterviews with Wes Craven and
see how much thought he put into the film and how the film was
about like kind of the sins ofthe parents coming back upon the

(13:32):
children and, you know, notbeing believed.
And you know allegories, foryou know a lot of these films
are allegories for like dealingwith trauma or grief or, and
sometimes they're just fun andbloody.
But even at the, even at thecore of the fun and bloody ones.
There is that theme of goodversus evil and usually in
horror the final girl or thefinal boy in horror films is

(13:57):
somebody who's going throughstuff as somebody who in this
world of the film is kind of inthe background or kind of
they're not the most popular,you know, they're not.
You know, in movie termsthey're not the hottest, you
know most popular person inschool or the most athletic.
They're usually arepresentation of somebody who's
kind of unseen or kind ofdismissed as like oh, that's

(14:19):
just, that's just a normalperson, like that's not the
beauty queen or the you know oranything like that.
So there's always been thisundercurrent of of you and even
the most basic horror films isthe empowerment of somebody who
doesn't have a lot of power inthe world of the film and is
kind of dismissed and they, thatperson rises to save the day.

(14:40):
So there's wish fulfillmentthere in a way, because most of
the horror people that I meetlike I'm always surprised not
anymore, because now we have theinternet people can see
interviews with me.
But early before the internetpeople would meet me and be like
wow, you're a lot nicer andsweeter than I thought you like
I was.
I didn't know what you're gonnabe like and it's like most of

(15:01):
my writer, director, actorfriends who love the genre are
like the nicest, sweetest peoplebecause they, being an artist
already kind of makes you anoutsider as far as like
respectability and people saying, oh, you know, get a real job,
so add horror on top of that andyou're kind of like an outsider
in an outsider career.
So you know I love that.

(15:22):
That.
You know I've always and it'snot I never lead with the
message usually.
You know I love that.
That.
You know I've always, and it'snot I never lead with the
message.
You know, in my stuff, like, butyou know I do deal with like
themes of like bullying, like inTamra.
Or you know, obviously FinalDestination is about mortality
and you know you can't cheatdeath like that's.
You know it's an, it's aninevitability.

(15:44):
And you know, as I've gottenolder now, because I have always
been more fun, concept horrorand with layers in there, like I
mean it's not like you know Idon't.
You know I try to really writecharacters that are universal or
phenomena like dead awake,which is about sleep, paralysis,
which is something that peoplereally experience, or don't look

(16:06):
back, which is is, you know,really deals with the bystander
effect of people in a groupseeing something bad happen.
A lot of them won't intervenebecause of different reasons,
you know, psychological reasons.
But as I've gotten older andespecially as I've seen the
world kind of get more divisive,like my last, my last script,
which we're right now it's thefirst original thing I've
written for myself as opposed tobeing hired to write it for

(16:29):
somebody else, and this one itwas just like I've got all this,
like you know, agita for lackof a better word inside me about
how the world is going rightnow.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
It's kind of a global , global thing and it's it's.
It's really the lack of empathythat we have, and I know a lot
of that sprung out of COVID, youknow, when a lot of us were
isolated and it was kind of atraumatic world event where none
of us knew what was going onand had no control over our
lives and got locked up in ourown homes.
And you know, again, that'sjust the hard realities of it,

(17:03):
aside from the fear of COVIDitself.
It's like you know, and we'venever, I think that really
separated us, you know, becausewe were all isolated for so long
.
And then, you know, so peoplestarted going down rabbit holes
and, you know, the worst thingyou can do is be in your own
brain alone for a long period oftime, and so we we've

(17:25):
disconnected so much is on aperson-to-person level that
there's just so much hate anddivision that is a lot of it's
just being manufactured, in myopinion, like to keep us, keep
us engaged, but in a negativeway.
This new script I've written isvery much deals with that kind
of hatred in a really cool way.

(17:46):
So this is the first time whereI really like just kind of not
to be graphic but cut a, cut avein open and just like let it
bleed on the page.
As far as like, okay, I don't,I've not wanted to deal with
like the shit that I've dealtwith as a, you know, as a gay
person of color who grew up poorand I am also in a minority
religion in america, which anyfour of those things would get

(18:09):
you enough yeah, to enough grief, but to have them all together
and I've walked through lifedealing with it in a very
positive way and seeing the bestin people and being patient and
being kind.
But you know there's a lot thatyou have to bury to kind of
keep that up.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah, and I think it's really what I'm hearing is
it's really good that you havethis vehicle of writing to sort
of pursue that sort of passionin you and those concerns that
you have as well.
Yes, when you sort of firststarted with your writing, you
mentioned that you wrote somescreenplays to nightmare of elm
street.
I read somewhere as well thatthe the final destination script

(18:52):
sort of originated from anx-files episode script.
It wasn't from an x-file yeah,they.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
They always get it messed up.
Because what happened is I wastrying to get a t, an agent, and
so you need to have a featuresample and a TV sample for them
to read.
And they always wantedsomething that was already on
the air to show that you couldwrite in, because your original
movie sample would show that youcould write your own characters
.
But for TV they wanted to knowthat you could write other

(19:19):
characters in their voices, intheir voices.
So I did write an X-Files specscript to get an agent, but it
never went to the actual X-Files.
Like my friends at New Linewere like, this is a great idea
for a feature.
So it never went to the X-Files.
But in a kind of cool, kind ofkarmic, meant to be twist of
fate, james Wong and GlennMorgan, who had worked on the
X-Files, ended up coming onboard Final Destination, james

(19:45):
to direct, and then Glenn jameswrote the shooting script, you
know, based off my, my originalscripts.
There's there's that reallykind of cool kind of connection.
But but over the years, yeah,people, I've read articles where
it's like it was a rejectedx-files script.
I'm like no, it wasn't, I neversent it to them, but yeah, it's
.
It is funny how like.
That's why I always, when Italk to people about pursuing
like your dreams or your art,it's like you, you never know if

(20:06):
you're putting stuff out there,you never know how it's going
to come back.
So the fact that I started asan X-Files script it was enough
to get me an agent.
So I got meetings out of that.
But then my friends at New Linewere like this is a great idea
for a feature.
Let's, you should write this asa feature.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
And I'm like OK so that's really good and I think
that I'm not sure if it's theright one, but I kind of tracked
it down.
First of all, there was acharacter called aaron in it,
which is awesome, and secondly,I was just wondering what sort
of things transferred over fromthe, the x-files spec script
that you did, to the, the finaldestination sort of, because I

(20:45):
know it was a collaborativeprocess that you sort of went
through with your, with yourscreenplay.
What sort of stayed in?
How much voice did you have interms of creating that that sort
of final product?
And and you know what came fromthe X-Files script and what was
sort of added in.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Well it is.
It was an interesting longprocess because what stayed from
the script was the premonitionin the early draft, you know, in
the early drafts of thetreatment they were adults, oh
yeah, and then so that thatstayed in the script.
But then scream came out, whichI love, and that was wes craven
again and kevin williams andhis wife, but he's an amazing

(21:23):
writer.
But when scream came out theywere like, well, what if would
you mind making them allteenagers?
Because teenagers are hot again, I'm like sure, like i't care.
So then we made all thecharacters teenagers.
So I kept the male final guywhich is from the X-Files, and
obviously in the X-Files script,you know, there was never any
kind of Grim Reaper kind ofpersonification of death.

(21:44):
So I kept that.
But then after a while thatbecame a problem for the studios
because they were like you know, we don't know how we can do a
movie without showing death.
So in my final draft they mademe put in like an angel of death
but kind of like the X-Files,like it didn't show up.
It wasn't killing thecharacters, it was just taunting

(22:04):
Aaron.
But those are the things thatstayed.
Pretty much everything elsebecause of the you know you're
going from feature to and you'refocusing on a group of
teenagers, changed, you know,like you know, the idea that
death was killing in the orderthat they would have died in the
plane crash, like that wassomething I came up with in the
development process, just so itwasn't a straight up almost

(22:25):
slasher movie with death beingthe killer.
So that changed.
And then I think the biggestchange with James and Glenn
which I think is brilliant, wasmy version was very much kind of
Nightmare on Elm Streetinfluenced.
So death was using everycharacter survivor's guilt to
create, you know, this kind of,put them in their worst fears

(22:46):
and they ended up killingthemselves in ways that look
like accidents.
So in the movie Todd, you know,aaron's friend or Alex's friend
Aaron, that's from the TVepisode, yeah, and that's your
name and my middle name, alexHis friend, you know, gets hung
in the shower and in my scripthe rigged a noose up in the
garage and was kind of callinghis father on his car phone and

(23:09):
apologizing for some stuff he'ddone and the father's rushes
home not knowing, like you don'tknow this, you don't know what
Todd has done, but when thefather opens a garage clicker it
ends up hanging there.
So there were a lot ofcharacter archetypes that stayed
the same.
But when they added the RubeGoldberg aspect, which again I
think really opened thefranchise up to a wider audience

(23:33):
than would normally go see ahorror film, I thought that was
really brilliant.
And the good thing is I workedat the studio so I would get
every draft of the script in and, you know, give notes that
would go back to them Once.
I kind of know my role as a, asa writer and having been
through the process before, oncea script is like moving forward

(23:56):
and and you like, you know youlike the directors and you, you
know you like their work theycome up with some cool stuff.
You know my job at that pointwas just the same as a studio.
It was like let's just makesure what they're turning in is,
you know, as strong as it canbe If we have any holes.
And we I didn't even reallyhave, honestly didn't have very
many notes once.

(24:16):
Once they started turning inthe shooting script, like I
thought they did a really goodjob with the thing and you know
there was enough of my story andstructure and characters and
kind of the solid foundationthere that I was.
Just you know, again, I thoughtthe stuff they did actually
made it stronger.
So, you know, I was reallyhappy with the way the film

(24:39):
turned out.
I mean, there were, you knowthere was a new ending that was
shot, because I know the endingthat they filmed was definitely
much more intellectual.
You know, and you know Alexdied and then Clear was alive
and had his child that she namedalex, and then carter was still
there.
But test audiences for you knowthis is, you know why you
should you got to test your testyour films.

(25:01):
It's awful, it sounds onlycreative.
But test audiences were likeyou know, they wanted something
bigger and plus, they were likewhy is this asshole guy?
Like oh yeah, he's hanging outwith with clear.
You know what's up with that.
And so, to the studio's credit,they spent an extra like
million dollars and like reshotthe ending which works actually

(25:23):
beautifully because it kind ofties into the whole.
They were starting, you know,on a trip to Paris and it ends
there and that yeah, so thewhole thing is such a it is a
process and again I'm justreally happy with, with the
final result and it found anaudience.
It was a word of mouth hit, likeusually horror films open high

(25:45):
and then drop 50 percent it'skind of the standard drop rate
for horror films and our movieopened at number three.
So it didn't open at number onebecause, new line, they put
marketing behind it but theydidn't quite know how to like.
We didn't have a jason or afreddie or, you know, michael
myers.
So the trailers were reallycool but you had to trust that
the audience is going to bethere and I I was very confident

(26:07):
.
You know I'm sitting in thatand I'm like it's going do good.
And then it opened to numberthree and they're like it's
doing OK.
But then during the week westarted noticing the numbers
going up.
So every week it kept climbinghigher and so that's why, you
know, I'm always so grateful.
Every filmmaker I know isgrateful for the fans.
So this isn't just me, but I'mjust saying like that's why I am

(26:30):
so grateful for the fans, likeI never take you know my career
because I'm a fan myself, but Inever take my career for granted
because I just rememberwatching it go up each week and
my core fans are you know,they're going to check it out
and they're talking about it.
You guys are the best.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
That's so good, yeah, and I think that with that word
of mouth thing it's it's becomea millennial sort of classic
hit really and it definitelyfound its audience in that sort
of space.
And I I know as well that youwere talking before about the,
you know, death being thatinvisible force, was there a
whole lot of pushback for you toactually create a physical

(27:08):
embodiment of that?

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Oh yes, so much From the studio.
Like it was funny, craig Perrywho you know I always say is
like the daddy of the filmbecause he's been the producer
and he's the one and his partner, sheila, who came on, you know
they became partners after thefirst film but they've been like

(27:30):
literally the parents of thisfranchise.
As far as you know.
They became partners after thefirst film but they've been like
literally the parents of thisfranchise.
As far as you know, theproducers really are the ones
that kind of keep every movie ontrack and kind of fight for
quality stuff and have to dealwith the creative and the studio
.
So, you know, craig and I reallyfought for a long time to not
because we were like that's thewhole point is like death For a
long time to not because we werelike that's the whole point is
like death, because I didn'twant to tie death into any kind

(27:54):
of religious or spiritual or not, or no matter what your belief
system is.
I didn't want to tie it intoanything that would limit people

(28:16):
from being impacted by themovie.
So even when we did the Angelof Death, there's no real, it
was just a shadowy figure thatshowed up after Alex figured out
the order and he tried to gosave a character and then he
realized he forgot the orderbecause some characters didn't
switch seats on the plane, likethe angel that kind of just

(28:38):
showed up in the shadows, kindof taunting him but it wasn't
like a christian, like you know,grim reaper I don't know, but
you know it was it was stillvague, but, um, it was.
It was a battle.
And then I know that James andGlenn went through the same, you
know the same thing with thestudio.
And it's fine because they weretaking a chance on.

(28:59):
They were taking a chance onconcept because it wasn't a
typical, it wasn't what you wereseeing coming out at the time,
which was like more slasherbased horror films Like this was
more esoteric, and they were,so I I understood the
trepidation on their part, butthe good news is everybody
fought the good fight and thestudio, at the end of the day,

(29:22):
released it without having ushave a yeah I think it kind of
worked best because I know forme anyway, the fear of the
unknown is is more scary thansort of anything that you can
create.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
But also what you can imagine the villain or slasher
is is usually a lot scarier thanwhat it ends up sort of being
at the end of the the movieanyway.
So it kind of plays into that.
But it also kind of also allowsfor that rube goldberg horror
subgenre that you were talkingabout earlier, because there's
there's those elaborate deathset pieces that happen and I

(30:00):
think that the, the invisibleantagonist, so to speak, kind of
lends itself really well to tothat sort of aspect that has
become really prominent throughthe franchise.
And I kind of love the way youguys did it, because you know,
in the movies you can see it aslike a gust of wind or you can
see it as various sort ofnatural effects, for one like

(30:21):
lightning or things like that,where it sort of tells the
audience you know death isapproaching or death is watching
or something's going to occurin this space.
It kind of allowed the audienceto kind of play detective
because it didn't show like thetension in these movies didn't
come from.
If the characters would die, itwould come from how they died,

(30:42):
which was a really sort ofbrilliant twist on a usual
horror sort of trope, which Ithought was really great too,
and especially in the new one,bloodlines, they've kind of
transitioned it to be that penny, and that penny is just going
viral all across.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
I know, I know.
And again, like, yeah, that'swhat I loved when Glenn and
James came up with the RubeGoldberg aspect, because, again,
it was a way to A keep awayfrom the studio making them show
any kind of death thing, but itdid make it universal in that
it's like everyday things aroundyou could do it.
So you know it's.

(31:14):
It is funny because, um, I lovebloodline.
It's been so long since we'vehad one and it's a combination
that you know I I spoke to thescreenwriters before they
started the script and just, youknow screenwriters that I very
much admired, so I was so gladthey were doing it, but they
were such big fans and so I justgave them a couple of you know
things that I would you know,because screenwriters that I
very much admired, so I was soglad they were doing it, but
they were such big fans and so Ijust gave them a couple of you
know things that I would youknow, cause they were like, what
do you think?

(31:35):
Like, we know it's important tous as fans, but what do you
think is important?
And I said, well, here's acouple of things.
And then I'd like to clear upthat one character's fate and
one of the I'm trying to try notto spoil movies like I want to
make it canon that this personsurvived, since they did survive
in the movie.
But then on some dvd extras ona later movie, they were like,

(31:55):
oh, this character died.
And so I said can we just clearthat up and have tony todd come
back?
But the directors too, like theyare the nicest, like most I
mean this in the most positiveway like geeky, like geekiest
fans of this franchise.
So they approached it not onlyas filmmakers but like, with

(32:17):
like, and again, it's a, it's afun horror movie.
Like I'm not, and so I knowwe're not making, like you know,
even Private Ryan here likemaking a fun horror film.
But there's a level of respectthat they and passion and
excitement they dug so much intoit.
Because, like the log truck islike probably my proudest moment

(32:40):
, you know coming up with that,because that was kind of the
thing.
And now I'm like it is funnybecause that penny, that penny
needs to get a like a supportingcharacter.
Yeah, uh, saturn award, becauseit was just brilliant how they
weaved that through the wholemovie.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah, it's such a good through line they put so
much in there.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
I was listening to the commentary and it's just the
care that they put into so muchof it and that trickles down to
everybody the writers, theactors.
They were very open with theproduction designers.
They were like put as manyEaster eggs in here as you want,
like, and Tony Todd coming backand giving his last performance
and them letting him ad lib hislast lines to the audience,

(33:21):
knowing that that was kind ofhis parting words in this
franchise to the world, was sotouching.
So there was just so much loveand passion that went into this
one that I just frig love it.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
I had such a blast it was a really great cinema
experience for me and I didn'tsee it when it first came out.
I saw it like I don't knoweight, eight or nine weeks after
it originally released and thecinema was still half full and
it was still like full of reallypassionate sort of fans because
they they had the, the physicalsort of reaction to the moments
that you'd expect.
It was really, really great andI love the, the soundtrack and

(33:55):
the blending of that kind ofthing in there as well, and they
really went to town on the rubegoldberg in that one.
I think it's so good too.
But yeah, I'm a big fan of thenew one too and I'm a massive
fan of the franchise.
You did mention the log truck.
I'll be remiss if I don't askyou, because when I told
everybody that I was sort ofgoing to talk to you, they said
ask him about the log truck.

(34:16):
I was okay, like, how did thatsort of come about?
And you know a lot of thepeople that sort of asked me to
talk to you about it has saidthat whenever they see a log
truck now they back off abouttwo or three kilometers off the
speed limit.
So it's had that sort oflasting effect.
So how did that sort of comeabout?

Speaker 2 (34:33):
but then also, did you, did you know that the
impact would, would be this vast, not only on that moment of the
log truck, but just thisfranchise as a whole, like it's
gone, generational really it'sfunny how I came up with the
idea like we'd had this thegeneral story worked out, but
originally it was going to bethe kids are going to flor,
florida, and they stop at ahotel and it was going to be a
hotel fire.
Craig Perry, whose name Imention often, was just like I

(34:57):
like the hotel fire, but I wishwe had something bigger.
I was driving home to visit myfamily in Kentucky.
That's when I came up with theconcept of the first one was
flying home to visit my familyin Kentucky.
So I always have to giveKentucky a shout out for not
only raising me right but alsofor inspiration.
But yeah, like we were just.

(35:18):
You know, I was riding on themountain Parkway in Kentucky and
got behind a log truck and thenI just pulled into the next
lane and then it just hit me andI pulled off the freeway and I
called Craig like it was reallylate, and I woke him up, which
is so Hollywood to say.
But I was like what about a logtruck?
And he's like whoa, so theyslow down.
I was like what about a logtruck on the freeway and the

(35:43):
chain breaks and he's likethat's a fucking opening.
I love that story because it'salso like how important, like
artists, living life is, becauseyou don't know where
inspiration is going to hit you.
And I had been holed up at homeracking my brain trying to
think of something to replacethe fire.
And then I was going home tovisit my family and it was just

(36:06):
like I was so focused because Ihate driving, so I was so
focused on driving home that Iwasn't thinking about the movie.
And then I get behind that logtruck and I'm like, oh, I hate
those things.
And then I went over and it waslike light bulb moment.
But to your second question,just growing up as a fan,
certainly you always keep asequel in mind.
All my favorite horror movieshave sequels.

(36:27):
So I thought if we were luckywe would have a sequel.
I did think that the impact isnot something that I it's so
hard for me to get my headaround.
Like I get log truck memes andmy friends are sending me log
truck videos and TikTok, it'slike like almost every other day

(36:48):
like I will get something to dowith like log trucks or people
saying you know doing videoswhere it's like this is a final
destination moment, so to tohave that be in the zeitgeist 25
years later.
It's really cool, but it'sstill hard to get my head around
.
You know it's still hard to youknow I'll be like oh you're,

(37:11):
don't you know it's still hardto you know I'll be like oh,
you're don't.
You know like this is.
I was like it's cool, but youknow it's like also, I'm very.
I grew up in kentucky.
They teach you to be veryhumble there, so I never go
around going.
Ha ha, ha, like yeah I'm inthis eye following the mustache.
Yeah, it's never like that, butit it just.
It's really grateful.
And I also I would be remiss ifI didn't thank chris bender,

(37:32):
who was working with me, whotook the idea to craig perry and
his producing partner at thetime, warren zide, but also my
friend brett leitner, who cameup with a title, because
originally it was called flight180.
I know the directors liked thetitle and they wanted to keep it
, but I knew that if there was asequel we couldn't call it
flight 182 and flight 183.
And so we were really rackingour brains and my friend brett

(37:54):
leitner came into the office oneday and he's like, what about
final destination?
Like what do you mean?
He goes, well, we just I justlanded and they say you've
reached your final destinationwhen you land on a plane.
And that's your.
You know, final destination onthis planet is when you die.
And I was like that that'sreally cool.
And so I called the producer upand he's like, yeah, that's it,

(38:15):
you got it.
I mean, you're still runninginto that, you know, aha, not
the final destination after all,but it's.
You know, it's just cool.
And you know, I mean, just as afan, you know it still makes
that, no matter how old I get,it still like.
It takes me back to being that14-year-old kid and thinking
about Nightmare on Elm Street.

(38:42):
And then it's like if I toldthat kid there would be memes
going around about a scene hecreated one day in a horror
movie.
Well, he would have probablysaid you're damn right there.
I had a lot of gumption when Iwas young, but it is really cool
, that's really great, I'm verygrateful and again it's all back
to the fans.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
you know it really is yeah, well, I can, I can attest
because final destination wasmy nightmare of elm street for
me, because it was kind of theyou know you're all over for a
sleepover, put on a horror moviewhile the parents are asleep,
kind of thing that that wasfinal destination for me and I
know that's sort of theexperience for a lot of people,
my age and it's.
It's sort of become a lot ofpeople's gateway into the horror

(39:14):
genre as well, which is good.
Yeah, I just think it reallytouches base with those sort of
millennials especially.
But I really like thatbloodlines has come out, so it's
again for a new generationthat's sort of going to be
enjoying that sort of phase ofit as well, yeah yeah, that's
really great, okay.
So I think I want to ask youabout some of the like, some of

(39:35):
the, the transitions that youmade between final destination
one and final destination two,because I know that in final
destination one you were, you'rethe writer and creator, along
with some other collaborators aswell, but then on final
destination two, you kind ofbecame the executive producer.
How do those sort of rolesdiffer, and what was the change
in responsibility like for that,in shifting from that writer to

(39:57):
the producer for the sequel?

Speaker 2 (40:00):
this shift wasn't wasn't huge.
What happened is I wrote thestory for the second one, which
was a lot of fun Cause I got todo a lot of stuff that I like
doing, cause, you know we Iwanted to set up like a group of
teenagers and then kill themall off except for Kimberly, so
you thought you were going tofollow them and then kind of
have the ripple effect of thesurvivors in this movie were

(40:22):
tied to the fact that the peoplein the first movie cheated,
death and also bring back someof the og players from the first
movie.
So I wrote the story for thatone and eric bress and j mackie
gruber, who had done a greatmovie called the butterfly
effect, were brought on to towrite that script and expand the
story as well.
And so the funny thing is I wasstill working this is how

(40:46):
un-Hollywood I was is I wasstill working at the studio in
New York when the first moviecame out, when I wrote the story
for the second one and thenwhen I sold it, and then finally
they were like Jeffrey, you'vegot a sequel coming out to like
a hit movie, like you're awriter.
Now you need to leave the nest,because I would have just stayed

(41:08):
at new line, probably the restof it, you know, not the rest of
my life.
I would have eventually left.
But I would have just stayedthere working you know, my day
job in marketing and television,you know and not thought, oh,
wow, I, you know I should do thehollywood thing and have left
and and really moved to la andstarted really pushing and doing
all the hustle that you need todo when you, when you sell a
movie.
So you know, I learned a lot.
I had learned a lot anyway, andI was more involved on the

(41:29):
creative side before the filmstarted shooting on the first
film than most writers are.
So on the second film, I wasjust really involved in, like
you know, the development of thescript and, you know,
discussing cast with people youknow with, with the team, and
then I went to visit the set,you know, for like a week and
got got to see some of the.
I didn't get to see the coolstuff on the crash because it

(41:51):
was like the pickup it waspicking up with like different
people in their alreadyoverturned cars or you know, and
things like that, but you know,it was just, it was cool, just
to go behind the scenes and hangout with the director and see
you know how he'd laid out thecrash site on this huge, massive
table with like little cars andlittle motorcycles and a little

(42:13):
log truck and a little cop car.
So, yeah, it was just.
It was just a lot of fun.
But the thing I learned againthis is from being at the studio
too is like there is kind ofthe hierarchy.
Like you know, once you sell ascript, technically it's out of
your hands, like they can dowhatever they want with it.
You have no say over anything.
I've been very fortunate thatI've made friends with, like you

(42:33):
know, david Ellis, who workedon the second one, who who's no
longer with us, unfortunately,but he worked on Bloodlines and
the writers.
So I've learned through on allmy films like that.
I get to know all the directors.
It's not Machiavellian like,because I know their fear is
that you're going to come on setand try to be like that.

(42:54):
That's not what I wrote andtechnically when you sell a
script it becomes the director'svision, unless they ask you to
be a part of it, and so if I'mnot asked to be a part of it, I
still will be.
You know, like with thedirector on tamra and steve
minor well, steve minor wantedme to stay involved, but but
even the directors on like tamraand stuff like that, I formed a

(43:14):
relationship early on wherethey knew that I'm not going to
come in and try to like undercutthem in any way.
Like I just love visiting set,being on set, watching them,
learning from them.
I've learned, that's taught mea lot of like skills that have
been very useful.
As far as being an executiveproducer or producer, you know,

(43:35):
technically executive producerit's the titles are weird Like,
technically an executiveproducer is somebody who's maybe
involved in some of thecreative decisions, but most of
the time they bring in money.
Like if you're just dealingwith a film in general, if it's
a studio film, obviously thestudio is providing the money,
so you don't have to worry aboutany of that.
Producers can be anybody from.

(43:56):
Sometimes you'll give somebodyyou'll give a A-list actor, a
producer credit to have them bein the film, credit to have them
be in the film.
Producer, producer is somebodylike Craig who from beginning to
end you know, from the minutethe idea starts being developed
till the film is released iswith it all the time, making
sure everything is runningsmoothly, making sure everything

(44:16):
, all the crew is hired.
You're dealing with the studio,trying to keep them happy while
also giving the filmmakerseverything they need to make the
film as good as possible.
That's a, you know, a true, onthe ground producer is like soup
to nuts or whatever that phraseis.
Yeah, that's the ball.
I forget what it is, but fromthe beginning to the end,
they're like every day that itjust consumes their life.

(44:41):
They're probably under thedirector.
They're probably Well.
They're probably, yeah,director.
They're probably well.
They're probably, yeah, they'reinvolved longer because they're
there before the director comeson.
But, aside from the directors,they're probably the busiest.
Yeah, as far as, like puttingout all the fires and dealing
with all the, all the differentelements that come together to
make a film happen.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
So you mentioned as part of your role as producer,
you had some influence on sortof the casting choices and
things like that, and we had AliLata come back as Clear Rivers
for number two.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
I read somewhere as well that Devin Sauer wasn't
available to come, but it sortof brings up the question to me
about how inevitable death'ssort of plan is in these movies.
And looking at FinalDestination 2, it is the only
one in the franchise where wetechnically have two survivors
that occur at the sort of end.
So so what are your thoughts onthe trajectory of those two
characters, but also commentingas well on on devon sower's

(45:34):
character of alex browning sortof dying off screen to a fateful
brick accident as well?
So what are your thoughts onthose sort of?

Speaker 2 (45:41):
well, two thoughts, because in the story, in the
story that I wrote, I broughtthem both back.
Like they both came back and wecouldn't get devon back.
And you know I've I've made nobones and I think the people
that have done the movie haveprobably been like, oh, if we
could do it again, we would havenot, you know, because he, alex
, was the franchise final guy,so in my original story he

(46:03):
actually survived the secondmovie as well, but then that
changed the fates of some of theother people unfortunately.
But yeah, it's, it sucked thatwe couldn't have it back and I
just, you know, I know thesecond film leaned more into the
comedy and the humor, but Ireally hated how they you know,
it's kind of how they saidkimberly died in a wood chipper,
like I don't know, I don't, Idon't you know, on the DVD

(46:25):
extras of part three, it's likeI don't know why you, you know,
because when I see these movies,even if they're not my movies,
like when I go see a movie likeA Nightmare on Elm Street, like
I fall in love with thesecharacters and I want them to
survive and I want them to win,and if they die, I think it
needs to be done respectfully atleast.
Like you know, halloweenresurrection, you know the way

(46:46):
they killed Jamie Lee Curtis offand that was just like I don't
care if the movie was amasterpiece after that.
Like you completely, you knownot even the fact that you
killed her, but you killed herin such a stupid way.
So it was the same thing withAlex.
It's like a head in the brick,like really like that's just a
smack in the face to the fansand to the character and to the

(47:07):
actor.
Really pissed me off, to behonest.
But you know, I'm glad you know, because the whole idea with
Final Destination is that youcan't cheat death, but I I
always wanted it to be that youcould prolong your life.
You know, like death isinevitable, but it doesn't have
to be within the scope of themovie happening, and so that's
why I was very happy with youknow how kimberly and officer

(47:30):
burke survived at the end ofpart two, which got me again
annoyed in part three, becauseon the dvd extras they were like
, oh, they got killed in a woodchipper and then, just by the
nature of the films, we ended uphaving films where everybody
dies at the end.
So you know, I told theproducer, like this is not like
we're painting ourselves into acorner, first of all creatively,
if you're just going to haveeverybody get killed at the end

(47:51):
of all the movies.
So that that was one of those.
Since we were talking about it,like that was one of the notes I
had for the writers onbloodlines, I'm like can we
please make it canon that kimsurvived and Officer Burke is
probably still alive too?
Like they didn't mention him byname, but she was the visionary
in that movie, so it would makesense that Tony Todd would

(48:12):
mention her by name, but OfficerBurke is probably alive as well
because she broke the chain.
That was the one thing I askedthem if they would kind of give
us clear, you know, kind of makeofficial canon for the movie so
that we do know that everymovie is not going to end with
everybody dying at the end of it.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
Yeah, I think that's really good too, because it
allows to get that investment aswell and it's it's sort of
asking the audience to look atthe characters that are coming
along through the film andthinking if they will survive or
not.
But I really like the you know,you can't cheat death theme that
overarches the FinalDestination franchise.

(48:49):
I also like the fact that thatcan also be coupled with like
you can choose how you live.
So for me, when you're lookingat Final Destination, it's
almost like you know death isthat inevitable thing, but what
you do with that time that youhave is really important.
Like that's the kind of youknow it's a fun horror movie.
But you can kind of getmessages from these kind of
things that happen in the FinalDestination movies as well,

(49:11):
because there are a lot ofthemes that it sort of touches
on.
I was wondering if you couldtalk to me about some of those
themes that sort of come and arepresented to you, some that
were intentional and some thatmaybe you've heard from other
people that have watched themovies before.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
I mean, for me it was especially when I wrote the
first one.
You know, even starting fromthe story point of view, it was
interesting.
It was because things weredifferent when the characters
were older, because they wereall dealing with different,
because they're different ages,so they were all dealing with
different things about theirmortality.
It's like I had a couple ofolder characters who were like
you know, you know, in myoriginal treatment, so they were

(49:46):
a lot closer, you know, notthat close as I get older, not
that close, still a long timeoff.
But you know, their perception,their perspective on life was a
lot different than theteenagers that were more care.
The younger characters are morecarefree, but then when you
make them all teenagers, thenobviously there's a sense when
you're that young, that you'reinvincible, and so all of a

(50:07):
sudden you're, you're gettingthis death like thrust on you.
And when I, you know, when I wasyoung, at the time, you know
like I again, I spent my, youknow, from 19 I was, I wasn't
sheltered because I was workingat the studio but I was
absorbing all the kind ofbusiness nuances and the

(50:31):
marketing stuff and things likethat.
You know, I wasn't didn'tnecessarily write it like with a
whole bunch of like subtextualstuff in it.
You know it was important tolike have this idea that you
should, we need to live life tothe fullest because you never
know how long you're going tolive.
Like you know, I've had a lotof people in my life who died

(50:52):
even before I wrote the script,who died way too young.
And you know and I try not to,because my mom had me when she
was 50, so my mom had me muchlater in life, but I didn't know
it because she didn't tell us.
You know, she just said I couldhave birthdays at 45.
And so we just never knew howold she was until I was in my
20s and I went home and I foundlike her birth certificate.

(51:14):
I'm like holy crap, because mymom was like up until her late
80s, was like great shape.
You know she would, she couldchase in high school Again, this
is Kentucky back in the growingup, back in the eighties.
But you know, if I didsomething wrong, I mean she
would chase me down, she wouldmake me go get a switch and she
would whip me and she chased meto tough parental love.

(51:36):
But it, it definitely, itdefinitely put us kept me and my
sister on tracks.
So for me, like, age is just anumber in a way, because she
lived to be 97.
And so, even though I turned 56in seven to eight days, I look
at it like, oh, I'm only sixyears older, older than my mom

(51:57):
was when she had me, so you know.
So my perspective on life is isyou got to live it to the
fullest?
As you get older, you startrealizing there's so much that's
out of your control and youhave to be patient with people.
But when tragedy strikes yourlife, the world doesn't stop.
You know, and that's a hard one.
Yeah, you know, I like when mylike.

(52:17):
I realize, because you live lifeand, and you know, we, you know
we spend most of our lives justworking, working, working to
get by, survive, make ends meet,and that's kind of our, what
we're taught is kind of how we,especially in this country, like
.
I know other countries havedifferent models, but in America
it's like work as many hours asyou can to make sure you can

(52:39):
feed your family and fuck you ifyou're complaining, you're lazy
.
But I realized, like, when I'mlike.
So I had this whole thing in myhead, like I could never stop
working.
My mom got sick and passed awayand I had to, and I just
stopped everything for like acouple months, you know, so that
my sister and I could, like youknow, handle everything back

(52:59):
home.
And I learned in that momentlike a the world didn't fall
apart if I wasn't.
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Completely in control of it.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Like my world.
The world didn't fall apart ifI didn't, if I wasn't writing
and turning shit in, like things, but also the world didn't.
I mean, my friends cared and myfamily cared and you know,
people that knew me cared thatmy mom passed away, because they
knew that that our family isvery tight, but the world didn't
stop and say we're going togive Jeff a break.
You know his mom died.

(53:30):
So you just you learn a lot oflife lessons.
I think this isn't necessarily alesson, but I think one of the
things that I love is going toconventions and speaking at like
schools and stuff where I'llmeet parents who have introduced
their kids to the finaldestination movies and it's
become like a bonding thing, agenerational bonding thing.

(53:50):
Like I'll meet families whereit's like you know their kid who
is, you know, you know in theirteens and then their kid who is
, you know, probably maybe stilla little too young.
They'll let them watch likewithout the bloody parts, but
it's fun to see like familieskind of bonding over this film,
like that's the thing that kindof makes me really happy is like
because I I again, I know how,I know all the great things that

(54:13):
horror can do as far as helpingpeople deal with again, with
trauma, deal with grief, dealwith with issues that are
troubling them, and also, on theartistic side, allowing people
to express themselves.
So for me, it's always just funto see like the family bonding
you know where it's like me andmy son are bonding over this and

(54:34):
I'm like, oh, you're a good dad, keep doing it.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
That's really good and first of all, thank you for
sharing your story.
And also, I can't imagine howrewarding it must be to go to
conventions and things like thatand have people talk about your
creative work like that.
As somebody who has drawnbefore does a podcast, I feel
like that would be just such arewarding experience.
I was going to ask you whatyour sort of most valuable

(54:58):
takeaway from your life andcareer and work on these movies
has been, but we kind of touchedon it there.
So is there anything else thatyou'd like to add in that sort
of space in terms of a takeawaythat you'd like to share to our
audiences, or do you think we'vekind of touched on it with what
you've said just there?

Speaker 2 (55:12):
I think we've definitely touched on on the
takeaways.
Yeah, I mean I again.
I I do think out of importantlessons, because I do tend to be
like little gay Oprah when Iget on podcasts and want to
impart a few things.
You know, I think you know andI'm not.

(55:32):
And this isn't wrapping up,it's just like to finish on what
you're always open to learning.
Because I, when you stopgrowing or think that you've
reached the peak of your likeI'm the best there is at this,
you're probably not a, butyou're not going to be open to
grow and this business is abusiness, unfortunately.

(55:55):
So you keep doing your art andI think if you keep at it,
people will find it and you willhave, but you have it's.
Persistence and patience arelike the key things to like to
hold on to and and also treatingpeople well.
Like going back to what I saidabout where the world is today.
Like this, it's a.
Any artistic world or anybusiness world is pretty small

(56:17):
and people will tolerate badbehavior if you're bringing them
lots of money, but it's muchbetter if you treat people with
dignity and kindness, becausethe people that I grew up in the
industry with are now likerunning studios and I wasn't
nice to them because I was likesomeday they may run a studio
and I may want to talk.
You know, like I just treatedthem well, because that's how I

(56:38):
was raised is to just treateverybody with respect, no
matter where they come from orwhat their beliefs are.
And so it's better to live yourlife that way, because you know
it's much easier to sleep atnight when you aren't so busy
worrying about oh my God, Iscrewed all these people over.
How am I going to cover, youknow?
Or the worst, where you juststart becoming like where you
don't care.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
So yeah, I can 100% agree with that.
I think kindness is the bestway to to approach a lot of
situations.
You mentioned before as well.
You know persistence and sortof hard work in the in the space
.
Do you feel like horror as agenre has progressed since those
days in the sort of 70s, 80s,90s when, when horror sort of

(57:18):
first started to become popularto to like now?
For example, like sinners cameout this year and that's gotten
great critical acclaim as sortof a genre bending horror flick
but then also like the Substancehas been nominated for lots of
different sort of Academy Awards.
So do you feel like thelandscape for horror is changing
for the better in terms of thatspace?
Is it getting more recognition?

Speaker 2 (57:39):
You know what I would like to think.
So, because the thing that I'veseen is again, I've been in the
at this such a long time as faras like creatively and like
obviously this is called showbusiness.
So the people that financemovies only care about the
business side.
Horror has always been thesafest bet as far as getting a

(58:01):
return on your investment.
You know, like a good return onyour investment if you you know
, if you're talking to investors, like if you want to make money
, if you want to guaranteeyou're going to make money,
horror movies is the safest betand it has had a lot of huge
success.
But you know you'll have classicmovies like you look back and
like the exorcist, you know it.
You know, got academy nods, andso you see times in history

(58:24):
where it seems like horror isstarting to get respect.
And then all of a sudden it'slike, oh, we're back.
You know they're still makingmoney off of it and they're
still making a lot of them.
But when you get to the area ofrespect, it's like, yeah,
they're still not there yet.
And then you know the substance.
Yes, you know that's a greatsign.
Substance, yes, you know that'sa great sign.

(58:46):
And sinners.
So glad it came out.
But it's funny because youstill get that pushback where,
you know, I talk to people and Ido this every time there's an
original movie that comes outthat normally nobody would make
because it is a genre bendingmovie that also has, like, a
mostly all-black cast, so thoseare like everything separately,
like a kind of Western.
You know, all black cast, mixedgenre, musical, like all those

(59:12):
things would be like if I triedto pitch that, they'd be like
well now.
So when it becomes a success,you're like look, this just
shows you and they're like well,that's just because of Ryan
Coogler and Michael B Jordan.
I'm like that's why you made it.
But the audience, yes, went tosee that.
You know, obviously that hadsome say in it, that had some
say in why they went to see it.

(59:33):
But it's still a different acompletely.
I loved it.
But it is a unique,untraditional film that
audiences could have very wellrejected, you know, but they
didn't because they wantsomething unique.
So I don't, I never know ifthey're going to take the right
lessons from from what whatcomes out.
Like Megan, too, like thatmovie has had huge brand

(59:56):
awareness and huge marketingcampaign, and Jason Blum has
said it himself, so I don't feelbad saying it.
But you know they decided to goin a completely different
direction and make Megan to likean action, like a sassy you
know memeable action movie asopposed to a horror movie, and
the audience has stayed away.
So it's like you would hopethat they start respecting it

(01:00:18):
more.
It also comes down to like who'sfinancing the movies

(01:01:07):
no-transcript.
He said something very and Iwas like fuck, if I didn't know
that I'd been asking you to bein a bunch of movies, because
you know, like you never knowwhat's going on behind the
scenes.
But you know, I think thecombination of the movie itself
being clever and smart and thenalso having such great actresses

(01:01:30):
and actors in it, but alsomaybe that personal thing about
oh wow, that's why she hasn'tbeen acting for so long, it
wasn't because she wasn't on,she just quit.
You know it's a tough businessman and you know that's the sad
thing.
As artists we can be very notsensitive in like a meh kind of
way.
But you know, if somebody tellsyou like you know you're riding

(01:01:52):
socks, yeah, your heydays arebehind you, you know if I can
pack it up and get out of here,like you know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
No, I can see that as well, because I think a lot of
artists especially sort of pourtheir their heart and soul into
stuff as well, and it's a verysort of personal endeavor for a
lot of creators.
So I can definitely see how itwould impact them and I'm just
really glad that so many of themhave sort of ventured forth and
have their sort of passionfostered.
And I hope to do it as well inmy career as a teacher.
But I just want to really,really thank you for your time,

(01:02:27):
jeffrey.
It's been an amazingconversation.
I've learned so much from youand I just want to appreciate
all the work that you've done inthe industry and really just
thank you for coming onto thepodcast and having a chat with
me today.
I can't thank you enough.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
No, I really appreciate it and thank you.
And thank you for being ateacher as well.
Like I said, that's honestly,like that's one of the most
noble professions in our world.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
So, thank you, thank you so much for that.
I do appreciate it.
So, all right, thank you verymuch.
We'll see you later.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Have a great day.

Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
You too, bye, take care.

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