John Carter (2012) Empowering Others and Leading with Integrity | Failure Isn't Final - The Fandom Portals Podcast

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
By control but empathy.
Do we sometimes chaserecognition when what we really
want is respect?
In this episode, you'll learnhow the movie John Carter from
2012 shows us that trueleadership is rooted in
integrity and not dominance.

(00:28):
Welcome to the Phantom PortalsPodcast, a podcast that explores
how fandoms and film can help uslearn and grow.
I'm Aaron, a teacher andlifelong film fan, and each week
on the podcast, we explore thestories we love, learn more
about ourselves and the worldsthat shape us.
Today, I am joined by myco-host, Rash Rackham.
Hello.
And today we are introducing abrand new theme arc, which is

(00:50):
titled Failure Isn't Final.
And we decided to look at all ofthe movies that aimed high,
stumbled, but still havesomething to teach us.
And by stumbled, we mean they'reabsolutely flopped at the box
office.
They're either flopped at thebox office or they
underperformed to the pointwhere they had catastrophic,
what's the word I'm looking for?
Consequences for any kind ofsequel that kind of occurred, or

(01:11):
for the studio at least.
So from misguided epics tomisunderstood visions, this
series will ask, what do storiesthat failed to find their
audience teach us about findingourselves?
The very first instalment isnone other than John Carter from
2012, which is in fact, to date,at time of recording, the
largest financial flop in thehistory of Brash.

(01:31):
Do you want a brief synopsis tothis floppy fish of a film?

SPEAKER_02 (01:36):
Yeah, yeah.
John Carter follows a wearyCivil War veteran who was
mysteriously transported toMars, known by its inhabitants
as Basum.
Thanks to the planet's lowgravity, Carter gains the
incredible strength and leapingabilities, can leak building a
single bound just like Superman.

SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 (01:53):
Carter Game, which drags him into a conflict
between warring Martian nations.
He befriends the four armedthrax, encounters the brilliant
warrior princess Deja Thoris,and slowly becomes a reluctant
hero who might be able to changethe fate of a dying planet.
As Carter learns the politicsand cultures of Bassoom, he
uncovers the influence ofmysterious therns, powerful

(02:15):
beings manipulating the war fromthe shadows.
What begins as Carter's attemptto escape his past becomes a
journey of purpose, love,loyalty, and as he fights to
unite the planet and protect thepeople, he has grown to care
for.

SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Or at least that's what they say he does.

SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
Who knows?
Who really knows?

SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Who really knows indeed?

SPEAKER_02 (02:35):
His nephew will know.

SPEAKER_00 (02:36):
Yes, his nephew, who apparently wrote the stories.
But in this episode, ladies andgentlemen, boys and girls, you
will learn that our theme arc,which is failure isn't final,
but specifically we're going toteach or learn the fact from
John Carter that true leadershipis rooted in integrity and not
dominance.
And we're also going to belooking, first of all, why this
film flopped.
We're going to talk a little bitabout that.

(02:56):
We're going to get ourcommunity's thoughts on this
movie, because we did some pollson our threads and our
Instagrams, and the responsesare pretty intriguing.
And we're also going to have alook at how the characters are
represented to see howleadership or or even just the
aspect of dominance through alot of violence in this movie is
portrayed on film.
Interestingly crash.

(03:17):
We did a poll on our threadscommunity, and we had up two or
just over 200 responses.
And the question was, was JohnCarter a bad movie?
Which way do you think our pollswung?
Was it a bad movie, yes, or wasit a bad movie?
No.

SPEAKER_02 (03:31):
Cutting how I feel, I'm going to say that it wasn't
a bad movie.

SPEAKER_00 (03:35):
Well, you would be with the majority.
76% of our responders andcommunity members said that John
Carter was not a bad movie.
Great movie?
Bad movie.
No.
Uh, and 24% said yes, it was avery bad movie.
So I think for me, there were alot of positives for this movie
in terms of its visualspectacle.

(03:56):
It was a lovely movie to watch,especially being from 2012.
I mean, like the Martians lookeda little bit janky, how you
going, but the the scenes andthe battles and the spaceships
and all of the differenteffects, including John Carter
like jumping from place to placelike a human-sized flea.

SPEAKER_02 (04:13):
It was all done pretty well.

SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh yeah, Taylor Kitch, the thelead actor, reported that he
hated it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
Yeah.
No, I 100% agree with the likethe spectacle of it.
It was like the world buildingitself was absolutely
phenomenal.
And it seems like they youprobably know because you're
smarter than I am, but the trickthat they use in movies where
they shoot everything in sort oflike so it really brings out
like the blues.

SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, they use different colourcorrective lenses and they did
colour grading after the fact inpost-production, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (04:46):
Because um you you can tell because uh like Lynn
Collins.

SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Yeah, her eyes, her eyes, holy just bluer than
sapphires.
That's it.
Yes, but um yeah, 100% agree.

SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
Like, and like it it's all like that's and the
almost the first thing you seewhen you see her because uh you
see her face, and then bang,just these like brilliantly blue
eyes, and you're like, damn, Ijust get eyes because my eyes
are blue, but then all thatblue.

SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
Yeah, yeah.
It's definitely color grading,and you know what, that has a
very strong similarity to a lotof the characters in Dune.
And funnily enough, this book,the John Carter book, predates
Dune and it predates Star Wars,and it actually laid the
foundation to a lot of of thosesci-fi kinds, fantasy things
that we really know and lovetoday.

(05:29):
Like, for example, what was hisname?
Edgar Rice Burroughs, who'sreally well known for writing
the Tarzan books, and this washis other well-known series,
John Carter of Mars.
Yeah, it it literally came outin the early nines, and
obviously Star Wars didn't comeout until the 70s, so this was
definitely an influencingfactor, but still not as popular
as those things that came afterit, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (05:50):
Yeah, well, I think uh I think it was just a more of
a failure to launch because backthe creator of Lunar Tunes
Warner Brothers were gonna makean animated adaptation back in
the early like 1930s orsomething like the 1950s or
something like that.
We're gonna make a well beforeit was actually gonna be before

(06:11):
Snow White, yeah.
And they had it going there andthey it just couldn't go
anywhere.
They just didn't gather anymoss, couldn't get any funding,
yeah.
And then it wasn't until like2012, like 80 years later or
what it was, uh that theyfinally were able to do
something with it and make amovie.

SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
Uh yeah.
There was lots of big namesattached to this throughout the
years as well, like studio-wiseand directorially speaking.
And to your point as well,Disney did end up picking it up
and they sunk a lot of moneyinto it because it came out or
it was going to be releasedduring a time when Disney was
basically looking for their nextbig thing.
So Pirates of the Caribbean wascoming towards an end and it

(06:53):
wasn't performing like it usedto at the box offices.
So it was looking for its nextbig sort of franchise that it
could hang its hat on.
And you'll remember during thistime, movies like The Prince of
Persia came out, John Cartercame out as well, Sorcerer's
Apprentice, all those kind ofmovies that were almost like
they were almost good.
They were almost good, but theyweren't quite there.
This was the one that Disneysort of put all its bank into.

(07:14):
And we had one of our communitymembers whose name was Holloway
Holdfast that said, this isn't abad movie, and it only failed
because Disney sat on theirasses and didn't make market it
at all.
And after doing some reading, Iactually potentially agree
because it had an ineffectivemarketing campaign to where the
trailers really failed tojustify or clearly explain the
plot of the movie because itwasn't such a branded IP like

(07:37):
Star Wars or Dune was, it wasreally kind of hard to sell to
the point where it was it waskind of like a misleading tone
as well.
So the director whose name wasAndrew Stanton, he kind of
rejected the studio's ideas andled this ineffective campaign,
you might say.
One example that they give isthat he put Led Zeppelin's
cashmere in one of the trailersand was seen as making the film

(07:58):
seem a little bit dated.
Another one was this movie wasset to be premiered through its
trailer, like trailer releaseduring one of the Super Bowls.
And that's a really great timefor movies to to debut their
trailers because obviously itgets millions and millions of
viewers.
But there's a really unluckyslot, and it happens when
somebody has an injury,basically.
Like if somebody has an injuryand they play one of the ad

(08:20):
slots, it's like a hoodoo thatapparently that movie is gonna
go bad.
And John Carter, its trailer,occurred during an injury
stoppage during the Super Bowl.
So it lacked promotion.
This was also the director'sfirst stint at a live action
movie.
The director, um, Andrew Stantonis actually like really well
known in the animation scene.

(08:41):
He directed and wrote A Bug'sLife, Finding Nemo, Finding
Dory, Wally, Toy Story 1, 2, and3.
And his live action writingcredits, he's he's written the
Obi-Wan series as well.
And you know, he had a goodwriting team with him, like
Michael Chabon.
He wrote the screenplay forSpider-Man 2, arguably the best
Spider-Man movie.
So it's not to say that therewasn't talent behind the scenes

(09:03):
with this movie, but it was alsoreported that Disney kind of
looked at Andrew Stanton becauseof his success and was just
like, here's a blank check.
And he has himself admitted thathe was kind of drunk with the
the money and the power of it.
But one but one thing I'venoticed is I actually dove into
the John Carter novel a littlebit in preparation for this
podcast.
And it is a very, I will sayit's it's dated.

(09:23):
It's entertaining, but it's it'sdated to the point where it is a
very like journalistic accountof John Carter's time on Mars,
and it's very first person.
And by that I mean we arefiguring things out about this
planet of Barsoom as John Carterfigures it out in the books.
Whereas in this movie, the scaleis completely expanded to the

(09:44):
point where, as we commentedbefore, the world building, the
nations, all those thingsexisted, the talks, they were
all there, but it was releasedsort of slowly, which I think
may or may not have workedbetter or worse for this film
because you were kind of giventime to absorb it.
So some mistakes were made, Ithink, but I also think some
things happened that were out ofthis movie's control that caused

(10:05):
it to to flop a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 (10:06):
Yeah, well, one of the things was the title, John
Car John Carter.
Like instead of saying like JohnCarter and the Princess of Mars
or John Carter of Mars orsomething like that, like it's
just John Carter.

SPEAKER_00 (10:18):
Exactly.
Yeah, that was that was a lastminute decision too.
Because you'll notice in some ofthe promo they still have the
the symbols that has JCM.
That's like the logo of the JohnCarter franchise if it ever took
off.
But obviously in the title,we've got John Carter until the
very end of the movie.

SPEAKER_02 (10:34):
Yeah, and because uh because this uh in the John
Carter movie, it took a lot ofits basis off the book Princess
of Mars of that series.
Like having it say like JohnCarter and the Princess of Mars
or something like that probablywould have helped it just by
people being able to be moreaware of what it actually is
than just John Carter.

SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
Or at least they'd know what they're going into,
you know?

SPEAKER_02 (10:54):
They don't Disney avoided using Mars in anything
they did with this movie, likebeing on Mars and they just
didn't say anything about Mars.

SPEAKER_00 (11:04):
Yeah, and I heard that was because their film Mars
Needs Mums or something likethat really flopped and failed,
so that they thought that Marswas a was a word that they
couldn't use in their productionanymore.
But yeah, I'm just wonderinglike there's this whole fear of
fear of risk coming from Disneythrough this era as well,
because as I said before,Pirates of the Caribbean on
Stranger Tides had a huge budgetand it came out at a similar

(11:25):
time just before, and it had alower than expected profit.
This one here had a massive umbudget as well, over 300
million, and it didn't rake inas much as that, let's just say.

SPEAKER_02 (11:36):
It's but and what confuses me, especially like
with Disney, is they predicateall these fears, but they don't
they don't even know the causethemselves.
They just it's just they shootfrom the hip.
What they do is they play itsafe and they deviate from what
the original media is about, andthen so then they just they just
take that fear from there andrun ramp it.

SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
I mean, it was a pretty competitive release in
terms of 2020 twelve, because itwas the same year obviously The
Avengers came out, the DarkKnight Rises came out, John
Carter had to stand out a lot inorder to make its money back for
one.
And one thing that a lot ofpeople have said as well, and
some of our community has saidthat as well, is that Taylor
Kitch kind of wasn't leading manmaterial enough to carry a film

(12:22):
into a franchise.
So we have William the trackerthat says lead actors must have
some measure of charisma,whether they're unknown or movie
stars.
The two leads in this wereboring, the movie's amazing
visuals, just couldn't save it.
So that was the other side ofthe opinion.
Did they say who the second leadwas?
I think they're talking aboutLynn Collins in this space.
Or if they're talking aboutWillem Defoe, I'll have to

(12:43):
disagree because Tarzar just wasmy favourite character.
I'm gonna talk about him a lotlater.

SPEAKER_02 (12:48):
Well, real realistically, for a lot of the
time, it is like if you look atLynn Collins' amount that she's
in it, for like a lot of thesort of end start, she's not
really in it except when they dolike the flash out to where she
is.
But there's a whole huge chunkof when she's he's there with
the tracks.

SPEAKER_00 (13:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think um like the cast ispretty stacked.
Like it's got Willem Dafoe asTarz Tarkas, Mark Strong as
Matthias Shang, Dominic West isin as Sab Thorne, and we have
also Thomas Hayden Church, whoeverybody knows is Sandman in
Spider-Man 3.
He plays Tal Hajas, and thenSola as well, played by Samantha
Morton, and obviously we haveTaylor Kitch playing the titular

(13:26):
John Carter.
I am a fan of Taylor Kitsch, Iwill say, but I am a fan of him
from Friday Night Lights, and inFriday Night Lights, he played a
very brooding football playercalled Tim Riggins, and I feel
like his brooding nature hascarried him through a lot of
different roles that he hasplayed in his uh his time here.
People might also know him fromWolverine Origins, where he
played a version of Gambit thatwasn't very well received.

(13:48):
But I feel like he has made hisname more well known in the TV
scene, playing playing parts inthe terminal list and also true
detective.
What what was your thoughts onTaylor Kitch as a leading man in
this one, Brash?
Were you sold by him or not somuch?
Dialogue stilted is some of thecomments we got from our our
threads.

SPEAKER_02 (14:05):
That's what I was gonna say.
I don't mind him in the leadingman.
Arcany would Arcony makes aperfect John Carter.
The writing wasn't very thedialogue writing.

SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know what?
I think that's universal.
I don't think it's a TaylorKitsch thing and just John
Carter's lines.
I think the lines throughoutthese movies from a lot of the
characters are a little bitstilted.
And and it's kind of cornycliche as well.
So even to the point where, likeat the start, the Tyshane.
Yeah, exactly.
Very dismal.
And maybe it's because we'recoming at from an adult lens and

(14:35):
it's meant for people probablymaybe younger than us.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (14:38):
But I don't know how, because you've got people
getting their arms cut off andin the movie and like the whole
pit where they they um slaughterall the hatchlings.
Slaughter all the hatchlingsbecause they can't take him with
them, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
Yep.
They're not strong enough toclimb out.
Yeah, I think that there aresome adult things.
That's a that's probably anotherthing.
It didn't really hit its tone interms of its target audience.

SPEAKER_02 (14:58):
No, it seemed too light, like everything too
seemed too light and bright tobe to deal with some of the
themes that were in it.

SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Yeah, exactly.
So it wasn't quite for for kids,but it wasn't quite for adults,
and it kind of was a bit toocorny and cheesy for teenagers.
So I think it definitely floppedfor a reason, you could say, but
I don't think the reason isbecause Taylor Kitch couldn't
carry the project.
So, with that being said,obviously, yourself and our
community, or the majority ofour community, believe that it's

(15:26):
not a bad movie.
Through this theme arc, we'relooking at what failures can
teach us.
And one of the things that Ikept noting through this movie,
and part of our most valuabletakeaway, is that I found in
this one that I was looking atleadership, more specifically
through our main character ofJohn Carter, but also through
some of the other characters aswell, and how power changes

(15:47):
hands within this movie.
And I think one thing that Ifound was that power in in Basum
or in Mars in this movie wasvery it was very much
strength-based.
It was based on control, it wasbased on fear, it was basically
it was based on sustained,outdated systems of power that
really showed one person'sdominance over another.
And that's historically accuratefor the time period that it was

(16:09):
written for sure.
Who has the biggest dick?
Basically, yeah.
Who has the biggest dick, whohas the biggest stick?
But it's literally the firstscene of the movie when you know
Matthias Shang comes down andsays, You'll rule over all of
Basum, and there'll be no onewho can defy you when he gives
him the ninth ray weapon.
And then Sad Thorn is a pawn anda puppet for the rest of the

(16:30):
movie where he's leading thenation of Zedanger.
It's Zedanger, isn't it?
Yeah.
And Zadenga like go through andjust annihilate everything on
Barsoom using this basically godweapon.
And it's it's to me that sort ofpattern continues throughout all
of the different societies inBasum.
Like obviously, through theTarks, it echoes in a more
primal form because they havethis survivalist brutality as

(16:53):
well.
And compassion has no place inthe Tharks either.

SPEAKER_02 (16:56):
Yeah.
And then but um yeah, they to goas far as even to say it, like
how they've watched countlessworlds destroy themselves to be
rebuilt again, then they'll justhelping this one along and by
giving him the gold weaponbecause he'll just destroy
everything, everything will die,and then they'll start again.
So just try instead of trying tofix it and trying to instead of
trying to fix it or make itbetter.

SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
Well, that's the whole message through the whole
thing, isn't it?
The the people that Matai Shangbelong to, I've forgotten what
they're actually called, but thepeople that Matai Shang belong
to, they have supposedly watchedover lots of generations of
people, and they pick a verycontrollable person to install
their will on a planet andbasically take over it via
conquest.
So you can tell, like you cansee that this is like a

(17:39):
primitive way to control peopleand oppress them to the point
where it exposes a world whereobedience basically replaces
respect.
So there's also some sometheorists whose name is Borman
and Palensky, and they say thatif if leaders lead with ethical
principles and not withdominance, it fosters long-term

(17:59):
cohesion.
So followers don't respond tofear indefinitely, basically,
because they respond tofairness, purpose, and
consistency, which is not thecase in in this story of John
Carter, because basically theguy with the biggest weapon is
going to win, or in the fact ofthe the farks, it's the
strongest one will rule.
And Tars Tarkas is that, or atleast he's posturing to be that

(18:21):
for a great portion of the filmuntil Taj Hajas, who's played by
Thomas Hayden Church, takes overbecause he's showing the
weakness of compassion, I'llsay, in in quote Marks towards
Solar.
So like it's very, very evidentprimarily through the Tharks,
because even as you said before,you know, there are 18
hatchlings who are yet to hatch,they said, and they won't

(18:41):
they're not worthy to be aThark, so they literally just
destroy them.
So there's just thatindoctrinated idea that
dominance and strength is whattakes control.
And for me, I really wanted JohnCarter to stand above that and
basically not reinforce thistheme, but subvert it.
But through this movie andtowards the end especially, he
basically gains power throughthe same means that any other

(19:05):
person in this world does, whichis through power and a show of
brute force and strength in thearena.
And and basically he's usinghe's using the villain's way to
control and gain power asopposed to doing something
opposite and being a leader inthat manner as well.
So I I kind of don't think JohnCarter is representing good

(19:26):
leadership or good traits of aleader in this movie.
I feel like he is definitely oneof the least popular characters,
in my eyes at least, that showshow he can change a system, if
you know what I mean by that.

SPEAKER_02 (19:37):
Yeah.
But uh but that goes along withhis character too, because his
character through the whole lineis he he doesn't want he doesn't
want to lead, he doesn't want todo anything, he just wants to be
left alone with his little goldmine and just be concluded.

SPEAKER_00 (19:52):
I was not sold on that either because he was he's
a guy, right, that just wantshis cave of gold is what they
kept going back to the wholetime.
And he even said to hisConfederate buddy at the start,
he was just like, Whatever it isI was supposed to owe to your
country, I've I've paid in fullbecause we get those flashbacks
where he uh he lost his wife andhis child and he, you know, he
plays with the wedding bandthroughout the the movie to show

(20:13):
that he's got this history as tosiding with somebody and it
going against him in the longrun, personally.
So I think what was supposed tocome off as him being
non-committal due to a morallyrighteous reason, like I don't
feel like he's not fighting orengaging in a cause because he's
opposed to the violent way thatthey're oppressing power.

(20:34):
I feel like it's because he justdoesn't want to, which like he
doesn't go one way or the other.
And when he actually does, hedoesn't commit to a side because
of any kind of belief or valuethat changes.
He does it for romanticinterest.
So he falls in love with withDeja Thorus.
Yeah.
He falls in love with DejaThorus.
And then, you know, she actuallyhas a real banger of a quote

(20:55):
too, because when they're in thecave and they're working out how
the transporting system workswhen they follow the river of
Is, uh, she says, well, he saysto her, War is a shameful thing.
And then she says back to him,not when a noble cause is taken
up by those who can make adifference.
He says, You made a differencetoday, Virginia, name your
price.
And he goes, I'm not for hire.
So I think that she is the oneplanting the seeds of the

(21:18):
values, and she is actuallymaking a difference through
changing the culture, changingthe way of something that could
occur.
Whereas John Carter just jumpsin and uses violence to take
over and be a leader again.
So the two people that goagainst this trend is Deja
Thoris and Tarz Tarkas, andthey're my favorite characters.
So I don't know why John Cartergets their respect at the end,

(21:41):
because I feel like Tarzaristhroughout shows the Tarks a new
way to exist, whereas JohnCarter just comes in and incites
them for a war that they're notreally involved in to start
with.
And that's my rant about howJohn Carter isn't a hero.

SPEAKER_02 (21:56):
To be fair though, the only reason why Tars Tarkas
does change his stance isbecause John Carter.

SPEAKER_00 (22:02):
That point I will give you.
That point I will give you.
He is so indoctrinated in theculture, like Tarz Tarkas sees
John Carter.

SPEAKER_02 (22:10):
As has his daughter, like just allows his daughter to
be marked so many times justbecause he does want to try to
fight against it.

SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
Very good point.
To the point where John Carteractually speaks out against his
decision and he works out, andyou know, he says there's
there's no room left to markher, basically.
She has no room for anothermark.
So it shows you that Tarzarkasis unwillingly moving forward
with the cultural practice ofthe Tarks.
John Carter comes and basicallyverbally outbursts towards it

(22:40):
and says, you know, this isn'tthe way that you should do it.
So yes, okay.
He does inspire Tarzarkas to actupon his thoughts of compassion.
However, he does rally the mobthrough forces of violence in
the end.
So he does move one stone inTarzarkas, I'll give him that.
But in the end, he falls back toold habits, and then, you know,

(23:01):
he even claims like fight like athark in the arena scene there.
And, you know, there's thatwhole thing where they say a
warrior may change his medal,but not his heart.
And I think that John Carterchanges for he's supposed to be
portrayed as this virtuous hero.
And I'm just not sold on it,Brash, for the whole time,
because his motivations aremurky from situation to
situation.

SPEAKER_02 (23:21):
I don't think he is meant to be sold as a virtuous
hero.
He's not the hero they deserve,he's the hero they need.
Okay.
Tell me more.
Well, so he is he's sick of warbecause of his family dying, and
he his family's died, he doesn'twant to be part of it anymore.
He kept he keeps getting draggedback into it reluctantly, and he
keeps trying to find a way out,but he his nature isn't for war,

(23:45):
it's to protect.
But he couldn't protect hisfamily.

unknown (23:48):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (23:49):
So even when even when he's trying to run away,
they're running into the inions,and Brian Cranston's character
gets shot, and he's riding off,and he he looks back and sees
that he's injured and he's likeand just couldn't do it.
He had to turn back and say,like, at least try and save him.
And then it's the same with thethrax, he the thrax, he doesn't
want to get involved.

(24:09):
He keeps trying to escape, whichkeeps messing up solar,
unfortunately.
Eventually becomes sort of aprotector for solar as well.

SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
Yeah, because he's instructed to take her with him
down the river is and that wasthe condition Tarz Tarkas said.
He's just like, I'll let youguys go because you have shamed
us through our culturaltraditions, but I'll let you
guys go if you take her becauseshe can't take another mark.

SPEAKER_02 (24:30):
And then the same thing, uh then she also, by the
way, Solar is probably myfavourite character in the show,
played by Sametha Morton.
She was in The Whale, plays thedaughter to his mother and wife,
amazing movie.
But also with oh am I thinkingwrong now, when she gets dragged
into um Deja Thorus's theconflict with them as well, how
she's like, Oh, help us fighthim, you got amazing powers,

(24:52):
help us point him.
He's like, I don't want to fightanyone.
I don't want my gold and I wantto go away because every time I
get dragged in someone, I haveto protect something and I end
up getting hurt for it.
And but I mean eventually theattraction of her does give in
for take away.
But I don't I don't think it'sbecause purely because the fact
that she's attractive.
I think it's because of all thethings he's seen her do.

(25:14):
The fact that she can protectherself, the thing the the fact
that she is brave and strong andsmart in her own right, that he
feels that he doesn't have toalways protect her.
He doesn't have to be theprotector of he can just and you
see that towards the end.
He's not he's realistically,he's not the leader of the
people anymore.

SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
He is though.

SPEAKER_02 (25:34):
No, no, no, not Tucson.
Right at the end.

SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
He sits with Deja Thoros, who is the leader, Deja.

SPEAKER_02 (25:40):
Yes, Deja Thoros, he's the leader.
He's the concubine.
Exactly.
He is the concubine.
He is and like he's well, he'sthe leader of the Thrax person.
Well, he's not I don't he's notthe leader, isn't he?
He's the right hand.
Well, he challenges Because hehe fights on behalf of of Tars

(26:01):
Tarkas.
Tartarkis.
I don't think he does it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
He challenges no, he challenges Tal Hajas in combat,
because that's what theirtradition dictates, and he beats
Tal Hajas in a violent episodewhere he basically beheads him
after defeating two white, largeapes, which also you could say
is metaphorical to what andforeshadowing to what happens
before, because there's the twobig nations of Zedonga and
Helium fighting each other, sothat's like the two apes that

(26:25):
are coming through, and thenJohn Carter basically squashes
one with the other and thentakes off the head, which is Tal
Hajjass in this in thissituation.
But that's that's the part thatI'm I'm not really sold on for
him because you know Bauman saysthat true leaders should align
their actions with their values,and earning respect through
fairness and empathy is betterthan earning it through showings

(26:46):
of strength and violence.
So he says that you know, I'mdone with war, I don't want to
fight anything, but even beforehe picks a side, he solves every
conflict with violence, everysingle one.

SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
He jumps into battle at a moment it's not like he's
going up to walk up to Indiansand say, Hey, peace.
And just hope he's not talking.
He tried to talk, but one of theother guys shot first.

SPEAKER_00 (27:08):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (27:09):
Wasn't his fault, and then they start shooting at
him, so all is he gonna do justlet him shoot him and just be
like, oh no, man, I'm cool.
And the same with in the arena,he is strapped to a boulder,
which pretty much gets rid ofrid of his jumping and his
strength abilities.
And then it wasn't until Solusand Tarzarkas were in trouble
that he then goes all superhumanfleet superman and bust the rock

(27:33):
and smash the other white apeand throw the other white ape uh
do all the violency part.
It's only when he when theothers are about to pretty much
die that he comes in and savesthem.
And it's the same when they'releaving the River of Is.
He jumps off the thing to fight.
He could have died right then,too, when he does that big epic

(27:54):
s just sort that I love thatpart too.
It's like one of my favoriteparts.
But no, he he he does that sothe others could get away, not
so he would to be some big heroand not to even probably
survive.
He didn't think he was probablygonna survive, but he does, of
course, because he's his maincharacter.
That's the one.

SPEAKER_00 (28:10):
They're near into the second one that never
happened.

SPEAKER_02 (28:12):
That pot armor.
But um he doesn't he doesn't doit for himself.
He does he everything, everytime he fights, he does it for
someone else.
And that's why he wanted hisgold, like his mount, his cave
of gold.
That's why he wanted to go awayfrom it all and be recluse,
because he keeps getting draggedinto other people's wars and
fights when he doesn't want to.

(28:33):
And then that's why at the veryend, when it's all said and
done, he's like, I'm now justgonna be a concubine and you can
run the joint, and I'm justgonna be your boy toy.

SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
See, that's that's what I think I don't like about
him because empowering otherscreates a lasting
transformation, right?
And he empowered the Tharks tore to join Helium, and you know,
this it it's leadership that'sbased on warfare and his his
charisma and the show of forcethat he had.
And it what's going to happenwhen Zedanga are defeated?
Is he is are they going tonegotiate treaties between the

(29:05):
Tharks and Helium?
Like what kind of leader is hethen?
Because he's just incited thismob to fight for them due to the
mutual cause that they have.
But then in the end of themovie, the true villains, which
is the people that are led byMatthias Shang, Mark Strong's
character, they're still aroundand and to the point where they
send him back to Earth.
So when he leaves and he goes,and the fact that he hasn't

(29:27):
really created that that lastingchange through empowering
others, like he's empoweredTarzaris, yes, I'll agree with
that.
But was that enough for him toto really sort of sit and say
that it's the moral conundrum orthe moral contradiction that
doesn't sit right with me forhim?
It's the fact that yes, I knowhe's fighting people because
he's dragged into it and becausehe's he's kind of forced to, but

(29:51):
I just feel like if he is goingto be a leader that leads
through fairness and respectingme a leader.
Yeah, but

SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
That's the whole point.
The whole point is he doesn'twant to be a leader.

SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
He's also gaining peace through like war and
destruction, which is exactlythe same thing that Sab Than's
doing.

SPEAKER_02 (30:08):
But that's the but that was the thing is that's
already happen that was alreadyhappening.
He didn't incite the war, hedidn't start the war.
Well, realistically, with hishelp, he finished the war.
He stopped the war.

SPEAKER_00 (30:19):
Well, I can agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 (30:20):
The war was fighting the war was starting before him,
and then the the Tarks, Thrax.

SPEAKER_00 (30:27):
Yeah, yeah.
The Tarks.

SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
They Tarx Tarks.
They and they were an oppressedpeople living in ruins that had
to hide every time a ship flewover the top.

SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
Well, that's that's why they loved him so much, is
because he had a power that theythought, well Tarztarkas thought
they could use against Zedanger.
Yeah.
Because he was the jumping man.

SPEAKER_02 (30:45):
Exactly.
Again, they would he was justanother weapon for someone else
to use when they drag him intotheir conflict.
But he shows he shows them allthat well, he shows Helium and
the uh Tarx that there's a newdifferent way.
Unfortunately, the Empire is adifferent story, they couldn't
tell them because they were soblinded and so enthralled by the
Thurns that they were beyondwell, realistically, once the

(31:09):
leader of the Thurns, um what'shis name, was killed, the the
Zover, everyone sort ofsurrendered, and that was the
end of it.

SPEAKER_00 (31:19):
Classic runtime issue right there.
It's just like, yeah, we wecan't talk about how this is
going to completely resolve, sothey're all going to surrender
when their leader dies.

SPEAKER_02 (31:26):
But for all th for all in terms of purposes, he
wants all he wants is peace, hewants to end wars, and he
accomplished that goal.

SPEAKER_00 (31:34):
I think for John Carter, it's more about him
finding belonging, because youknow, he he'd lost his place in
terms of where he belonged inthe Confederate army.
He lost his wife and his child,so he really had nothing sort of
going for him, and then when hewent to Barsoom, he found a new
cause and a new person to love.
So for him, his story was kindof a bit more about belonging.
The thing that I might need totransition on in my thinking

(31:55):
with John Carter is not thathe's represented as a leader,
but perhaps he's represented assomebody who empowers other
leaders.
Because if you look at the twocharacters around him, like Deja
Thoris, for example, she is avery powerful woman in her
place, to the point where theoriginal novel is called
Princess of Mars, like JohnCarter and the Princess of Mars.
Like she's completely relegatedin terms of a title character on

(32:16):
the banner of the movie.
But I feel like the story couldhave been a little bit more
compelling if they gave her alittle bit more headline,
because you know, her belief inthe ninth ray and in science was
that alternative to war that shewas talking about, because she
says Sab Than is using it fordestruction only, whereas she's
studying the ninth ray becauseshe feels like it could be a
source of restoration.

(32:37):
And it reflects her leadership,which is rooted in intellect and
empathy, but it also reflectsthat cultural system because as
soon as like they saw herscientific experiment begin to
work, they gave her credence andattention.
But then when it failed, theywere just like, oh no, we'll
marry you off.
Like that's the only thing wecould do.
You did have a good idea love,but unfortunately, you're just a
silly girl and we'll marry youoff.

(32:58):
Yeah, like that's all hercharacter was kind of useful.
Yeah.
So they gave her usefulness whenshe appeared to have value to
the nation, but then herusefulness was relegated back to
being a puppet to marry SabThorne and cause that peace.
However, in terms of what I saidbefore about her actions
aligning with her values, hervalue was that that wasn't

(33:21):
correct.
She should not be used that way.
And her action was to run awayand find an alternative.
So she went and found John.
So I feel like she's a leader.

SPEAKER_02 (33:29):
That's the funny thing though, because then she
didn't want to be used, so sheran away, found John, and then
wanted to use John.

SPEAKER_00 (33:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that's that's the thing.
Like, she like I feel like thisnarrative really sidelines her
and it reinforces John Carter'sphysical dominance as opposed to
her emotional clarity andintellect, which I think is what
drives the narrative forward,really.
That combined with like TarzTarkas embodying that struggle
where both of those characters,Deja Thoros and Tarz Tarkas, are

(34:02):
struggling to maintain their ownideals and values in a system
that really oppresses that.
So by contrast for Tarzaris, forexample, Carter's actions are
really reactive and kind of, Iwill say, self-justifying.
Like he being he does bringpeace through war.
And Tars Tarkas is all for thatas well, but he's also very
empathetic and compassionatetowards his own kin, for

(34:24):
example, like Solar, which isvery unconventional for his
species, to the point where he'sseen as an outcast.
Like he's seen as a leader, butas soon as he shows those
qualities, he's then seen as anoutcast until John Carter comes
along and obviously advocatesfor him.
So perhaps I'm looking at JohnCarter in the way that I feel
like he should be the leader,but I feel like perhaps he is

(34:45):
then empowering others, as Isaid before, because prior to
your comment, I thought that hehe really didn't do that in
terms of the both armies, likethe Tharks and the Heliumites,
but he actually did do that interms of the two individual
characters from each of thoseraces, like for the Tarx, he did
Tarz Tarkas, and for Helium hedid the princess.

SPEAKER_02 (35:05):
And we haven't talked enough about Sola.
Poor Solar, who gets strappedwith this dude who doesn't know
where he is, doesn't know what'sgoing on, so he keeps trying to
fucking escape, which keepsgetting her in trouble.
And she all she's trying to dois just be like, can you chill?
Because if I get friended onemore time, I am done.
Yeah.
And this dude just does notlisten to her and just keeps

(35:25):
fucking around.
And poor Solar has to pay forit.
The whole m the whole movie.
The whole movie.
Sol's just trying to like be themother and be like, all right,
kids, calm down.
And everyone's like going crazy,running around, jumping around
over the gym.

SPEAKER_00 (35:38):
And well, that's you could say that that's that's her
journey as like the mother inthis space, because obviously
Tarzarka says when thehatchlings are released, he's
like, let Sola have a hatchling,and then everyone's like, fine,
he can have she can have thewhite worm.
The white worm.

SPEAKER_02 (35:54):
Yeah, which is like another shame on the family that
Sola kind of just absorbsbecause that's yeah, but
constantly has taken it, andthen but like the fact that she
just keeps going and likebecause I think she went to the
river this to pretty much die.
Yeah, but and then John waslike, why?

(36:16):
It's because it's the way, andit's like, no, fuck the way.

SPEAKER_00 (36:19):
Yeah, but you can you can actually see like
through little things that thedirector's done to show that
this this violence and thisculture of like battle is rife
through the the Tharks.
Because if you remember when theZ the Zidangas came over and the
ships were like firing upon themand John John Carter started
jumping up and battling them,you can see that scene where all
of the Tharks are actually likeplacing bets on the winner and

(36:41):
who would wipe out one and oneor the other.
And you know, Tarz Tarkas playsas his wager on John, he's just
like, I I put my my money on onJohn Carter.
And you know, that that's alsowhen we see that the princess
also is given value again forthe power that she exhibits
because John says, you know,stand behind me, I'll protect

(37:02):
you to the point where she pullsout a sword and is then
considered an equal becauseshe's you know, she's she
doesn't need protecting orsaving, as to your point before.
She she alongside him.
So she didn't need that kind ofempowering from him because she
already had that.
But I feel like to empower hervoice, she did need John to do
that.
So I don't know.

(37:23):
I don't know if she's well Idon't think she's well
represented as a as a femalesort of character in this
because I feel like she's onlygiven credence and power when is
useful to the male charactersfor one, but then to your point
towards the end, she is thenobviously given that leadership
role over her father, and Johndoes slide into that concubine
position, as you might say.

(37:44):
So yeah, I think that it's justit's kind of a little bit muddy
for me the way that thesecharacters run, but there's also
like there is a lot to digest inthis film.

SPEAKER_02 (37:52):
Oh, because it's already a built world.
It's already a built world, it'salready gonna have a there's
already a war started thathappened many years ago.
Like there's already so much somuch thing that something that's
already happened in the worldand in the lore of this place,
that one movie sort of isn'tenough to sort of touch on it.

SPEAKER_00 (38:11):
Yeah, well, in the first two minutes of the movie,
we find out a few things.
Barsoom is what we call Mars.
Zidanger is a city that'scausing death across Mars.
It's a predator city, it'smoving, it's devouring
everything, it's draining allthe life from Barsoom.
We then learn about Helium, whostands firm against Barsoom,
it's the only one that does, andthe airships, and it's an
airship-to-airship battle, andthere's also a sandstorm that's
coming through, and you know,Helium, which led Helium to have

(38:33):
these massive losses, and as aresult of that, Zidanger is just
annihilating everybody.
So from let's literally twominutes, we just get dump after
dump after dump after dump.
And that's why I think, as Isaid at the start of this, when
I was looking at reading theactual John Carter novel, it
expresses the world building asJohn Carter experiences it.

(38:54):
So I as a as far as I've readinto the book so far, I haven't
heard mention of the Zudangapeople or the people from Helium
because at the moment John isstill with the Tharks.
So we're learning all about theTharks.
We know all about John and hislife on Earth before he got
transported there.
We know all about him as aConfederate soldier, and we're
slowly learning these things asit goes.

(39:14):
So I think that yes, AndrewStanton tried to build this
immersive and expansive world,which is great.
It's probably one of the betterthings about this movie, to be
sure, but I feel like the waythat it was approached probably
wasn't the best for newcomingaudiences, I'll say.

SPEAKER_02 (39:30):
And I like we say this nearly on every sort of
movie that comes from a bookseries.
It's better on the show.

SPEAKER_00 (39:37):
It should have been a TV show.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
Give us more time.
Yeah, like it gives us more timeand you can and you can do it in
sections.

SPEAKER_00 (39:45):
So like you've got like an hour block that you can
sort of thumb out, like so thatslow burn is sometimes better,
especially when the content isrich and deep.
That's the thing.
We need more time with JohnCarter's character because I
feel like his transition from Idon't want to fight to anybody
to I will now unite two largearmies of people that have been
warring for a long time againstone common foe.

(40:06):
I feel like that jump happensway too quickly.
And I feel like the way thatthey band-aided is that scene
where Tarzarka sort of tellsJohn, he goes, the Tharks will
not like I I won't be able tosave this red woman, he says, if
he doesn't agree to fight forthe Tharks.
And then to save her life, Johnreluctantly agrees to do that.
And then that's that's when hegets the victory and everybody

(40:27):
commends him, and he and youknow, you made a difference
today, Virginia, that kind ofthing.
So I feel like he gets thatlittle taste, and we are given
little tastes throughout thestart of the movie where we see
his virtuous side, we see thathe doesn't really want to
involve himself in a cause, andhe's got this backstory, but I
just feel like it doesn't fullycome together for me to the
point where at the start of thispodcast, when I was talking to

(40:48):
you, I was like, is he supposedto be the leader or is he
supposed to be empowering othersor is he supposed to be and I
watched this three times, so Ijust think that it doesn't fully
cohesively come together in a ina way that really sort of
expresses what they wanted towith the character of John
Carter.
But I do feel like thatTarzarkis and Deja Thoros should
have gotten more screen timebecause they definitely do show

(41:12):
that that that leadership isrooted in integrity over
dominance, because those are thetwo characters who really go
against their oppressors interms of the cultural norm.
And you know, it takes anoutsider to come in and show
them like, hey, this isn't thisisn't right.
So maybe those three as a trioare good.
Yeah, but just needed more timewith it, I think, Brash.

SPEAKER_02 (41:34):
Yeah.
And we can't forget like one ofthe most important characters in
the whole entire movie, theyoung Thark, voiced by David
Schummer.
Really?
Yep.
Wow, that's a deep cut.
Yeah, so one of the tharks thatyells out on the rocks that
yells out ships are coming.

SPEAKER_00 (41:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (41:53):
Yep, that's David Schummer.

SPEAKER_00 (41:55):
I wonder why he decided maybe he was just on the
lot one day.
Yeah.
Or they needed maybe they haveit on recording or something.

SPEAKER_02 (42:00):
Literally, like he's not part of the cast, he's just
he's listed as a cameo.

SPEAKER_00 (42:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Let's talk about Matthias Shangfor a bit here because he's like
the puppet master of this wholething.
And what would what did you sayhis people are?
Are the therns, aren't they?
Therns.
Yep.
Yeah, they're seen as this thismyth that sort of uh navigate
across the the land of Bar Sumto the point where you know they
they're so focused on thisuniversal conquest.
And, you know, they're startingwith Barsoom, and they can see

(42:25):
that people from Earth haveincreased strength, increased
agility.
They have as like one personfrom Earth wreaks absolute havoc
and mayhem across everythingthat they've been trying to
operate here on Barsoom.
And so obviously he's a JohnCarter's a problem to to
Matthias Shang.
So he sees John and Earthlingsas a big thing.
Well, I don't know how they theywouldn't have, or maybe they

(42:47):
didn't know because noearthlings have ever been to
Mars.
I'm I'm of the opinion, and Igot the inkling that the therns
were originally from Earth.
Like I don't know what they are,whether they're spiritual or
whatever, but they they they'retalking about this river of is
and when the oceans used to liveon on Barsoom.
But yeah, Mattai Shang wanted toto stop and eliminate anyone
with knowledge of any kind ofninth ray, like at the wedding

(43:10):
ceremony.
That was his ultimate end goal.
At the wedding ceremony, hewanted to basically eliminate
anyone's knowledge of the ninthray, cut the head off the beast,
is what he says.
And then he says balance must berestored.
So is he just is he leveling theplaying field?
What's he doing?

SPEAKER_02 (43:23):
Because you see, you see it on his face the first
time that John Carter likejumps, and he's like he's like,
What the fuck?
He didn't uh like he had no ideathat someone from Earth would
have this accountability becausehe or he didn't realise that
someone from Earth was eventhere at the time, and he's
like, What the hell?
That's a person from Earth, andthen he's like sort of jumped

(43:43):
around, and that's why he's likewhen you talk to him, he's like
knows where he's from becausehe's like he spent a lot of time
on Earth, and he's like knowsfrom like the south.

SPEAKER_00 (43:52):
Well, yeah, he says that he knows of it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:54):
So yeah, I but I they I think for as much power
as they have, they like 'causethe the thing I hated most about
the therns was I didn'tunderstand their purpose.

SPEAKER_01 (44:06):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (44:07):
I was just about to say is their purpose just to
watch worlds burn and then watchthem grow again?
Is that what it's like?

SPEAKER_00 (44:16):
Yeah, well they said because he said they've been
controlling the destiny ofplanets for ages, but Matthai
Shang actually says to John hedoesn't have a dog in this
fight.
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, he he says he doesn'the says to John he doesn't have
a dog in this fight, and thenShang also says, I also don't
because I am I'm eternal.
Like I live beyond this as well.

(44:36):
So to the point where it's likepower through oppression of
force is is less powerful thanbeing able to control those that
are doing the destroying, yetthey're they're controlling the
people that are doing thedestroying.

SPEAKER_02 (44:46):
Like Shang feels like the death of the princess
is going to be But the thing istotally this world's world's
gonna burn anyway, so we'regonna get along.

SPEAKER_00 (44:55):
It's like and they they use that cliche term like
balance must be restored.
So we see this this thismassive, like almost
mythological religious figure ofMatai Shang and the Thurns just
having a hand in every pie tothe point where they infiltrate
and and poses different figures.

(45:18):
Well, he was controllable,that's why they did that.
And that that was quite quicklytoo.

SPEAKER_02 (45:23):
It's like, how is that con that balance?
That's just that's tipping thescales.

SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
It's very much tipping the scales to the point
where they've given power to oneto conquest over the other.
But if you think about it aswell, it kind of did produce
balance because the Tharks andthen Helium rose up to to unite
and battle against the peoplefrom Zidanger as well.
Yeah.
So and then, you know, there'sjust so many pieces going on in
this in this movie where youknow Sab Thorn comes and

(45:52):
essentially he's an ally becausehe wants nothing more than to
marry Deja Thoros, and then likethat was a big betrayal.
It's it's yeah, it was justpretty messy throughout.
Yeah, motivations were fuzzy.

SPEAKER_02 (46:02):
Because I don't know, like they're all getting
this from like the books andeverything like that.
But I would have liked a morereasonable reason as to why the
Thurns are intervening or whythey care.

SPEAKER_00 (46:15):
Because if you think about it, the Zedangans weren't
really like they were constantlywarring, yes, before the Thurns
got there, but they weren'treally bad, so to speak.
They were just really kind ofinfluenced by one Thern and Sab
Thorne's will for ultimate powerto the point where it literally
caused a chain of events thatled to everybody's kind of
destruction and big vacuums ofpower and things like that.

(46:37):
So like I I definitely agree.
I think the thirds in this spaceweren't as fleshed out as they
probably could, but they wereseen as like this overarching
power, which may or may not havebeen resolved in later movies
that we never got.
But I think there's an openinginstallment.

SPEAKER_02 (46:56):
Three of him kills.
He kills he kills Mark Strong's,like Matai Shang.
He kills the one at the verystart when he gets the medallion
in the first place, and he killsthe one that tries to take the
medallion back that they said hefound when he wants to get back
to Mars.

SPEAKER_00 (47:11):
Yeah, and the biggest loser move John Carter
did in this whole thing wasthrow away that medallion
seconds before he got sent backto Earth.
Like, what a dummy.

SPEAKER_02 (47:19):
Yeah, he's like, Well, I don't need to go back
anymore.
Hey, you're going back.

SPEAKER_00 (47:24):
And on a synopsis point as well, moving away from
the power discussion, on asynopsis point, like that last
20 minutes where he gets sentback to Earth, and then it's
like a speed run of the thingshe does to get back, that that
could have also been literallyits own movie.
Like that was just completelyrushed to the point where they
could have even just ended thefilm when he is happy at Mars on
the on the balcony there, but Idon't know why they chose not

(47:45):
to.
That again shows like the Thurnscontrol over a different realm.
But you know what I actuallythink?
I think that they originally didthis and they introduced the
Thurns and Matthias MatthiasShang because they wanted them
to be that overarching powerthat looms in the distance that
everybody fears.
If you remember Dungeons andDragons, the movie Honor Among
Thieves, remember how like therogue, Hugh Grant's character,

(48:08):
he was kind of pulling all thestrings as the evil guy, but
then in the shadows you saw thatscene where there was that evil
kind of wizard.
What were those wizards called?
The Red Wizards.
Yeah, the Red Wizards.
And literally that was probablypreparing for the Red Wizards to
be a villain later on, but weonly just saw that one menacing
shot of that dark person in theshadowy corridor in that movie.
I feel like Dungeons and Dragonsdid a better job of

(48:29):
foregrounding a teacher villainthan this movie.
I would like like Mark Strong isan amazing actor.
No faults on Mark Strong.
He played a great character,always plays a good villain.

SPEAKER_02 (48:38):
But I feel like the Thurns should have been, like
you said, more in the shadows.
I don't think you should haveseen it.
I don't think you should haveseen it.

SPEAKER_00 (48:44):
You should have you should have been able to have
felt their presence, but notseen Yeah, even like a Thanos
end credit scene doesn't have tobe an end credit scene, but like
Sab Thorne should have beenDominic West's character, Sab
Thorne should have been thevillainous villain of this
movie.
Like he should have been the thefocal point villain, and then at
the very end, towards this, wefigure out hey, Matthias Shang

(49:05):
and the Thurns are actually likepulling the strings on all of
this.
So that gives you the secondstage of of narrative
storytelling where John Carterand Deja Thoris have to do that.
Yeah, yeah, go for it.
New segment, everybody, it'scalled Hear Me Out.

SPEAKER_02 (49:20):
So Mark Strong's character, you see him, but like
quotes, and you don't like whenyou see his face, you hear his
voice, you know it's MarkStrong.
You hear him, he gives him theweapon, he tells him what he
needs to do, and then that's it.
Bashes.
Yes, yeah.
And then he comes and then hecomes in, and then when it all
gets fucked up at the end, andJohn Carter wins and reclaims
the weapon and blah blah blahfrom the boat.

SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
Yep, and the ninth ray is back in the hands of Deja
Thoros, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (49:45):
Yep.
Then at like the end credit, asyou said, the Thurnous thing at
the end, where Mark Strong'scharacter's doing something
else, somewhere else thing, oneof his other thern members comes
up and says, We have a problem.
And then it turns, it's MarkStrong at the end.
Something like that.
And then that builds a thing oflike, oh shit, now the Thurns

(50:08):
There's a bigger villain.
There's a bigger villain.
And their sights are now purelyset on John Carter because he
messed up their plans.

SPEAKER_00 (50:17):
Yeah, and Deja Thoris too, because obviously
she's the leader of the arenanow, too.
But yeah, I I think that wouldhave been great.
Like reduce Mark Strong's roleto the point where he's the
looming villain.
Really focus on Sab Than DominicWest's character as the big
villain of this story.
Because you're absolutely right.
At the start of the movie, givehim the ninth ray, give him that
ultimate power, make it like alooming sort of dark power, so

(50:39):
you know it's a little bitnaughty that he has it, did not
develop that on his own.
Yeah, I think that would havebeen the way to go because I
think they definitely did try tofit too many things in this
movie.
But it but it's interesting,through this this discussion
with you, I've re-evaluated mystance on like how I see John
Carter as a character.
Because being called John Carterand him being the title

(50:59):
character and him being in aDisney movie, you think that
formulaic operation has to occurwhere obviously Taylor Kitch's
John Carter has to be the onethat's the hero and showing the
leadership qualities.
Through talking to you, Iactually have seen that he kind
of inspires the leadershipqualities in others, which is
one of the biggest qualities ofa leader as well.
So he is integrated, full ofintegrity.

SPEAKER_02 (51:20):
He's a main character who's a support
character.

SPEAKER_00 (51:22):
Yes.
Oh yeah, there's a good mate,you're on fire tonight.
That is so good.
Because yeah, you're absolutelyright.
Even though he does have somelike like full-on action
sequences, he's front and centera lot.
But I feel like Willem Defoe'sdevelopment and Deja Deja Thoris
at Lil Collins' development isdefinitely attributed to John
Carter's presence and theshakeup that he provides.

(51:43):
So yeah, I think I think thatthat really sort of summarizes
it.
So do you want to go into ourour little rating here, Brash?

SPEAKER_02 (51:50):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (51:51):
So for me, I'll go I'll go first.
I'll go first.
I'll go first, I'll go first.
So for me, I think obviously mynitpicks are that it's there's
too much story in this to thepoint where like nothing is
truly well done, but it doesopen up a lot of discussion for
us, and I think the world isrich and vast, a lot of
potential.
Sad that it that like there'snothing that has come of it.
I would watch anything thatcomes from this IP in the future

(52:14):
because I'm in now and I knowthe various factions and things
like that, but this movie is aas in particular.
I think it just nothing wasreally done well except for like
the visual effects.
I feel like John Carter islikable in terms of his role.
I still think he uses thevillains' tactics to win, but I
do like Tarzarkas and DajaThoros, so I kind of gave it a
serviceable 2.5 for me.

SPEAKER_02 (52:36):
I watched this movie back in 2012 when it first came
out.
And I I really I did reallyenjoy it then, especially for
the time because it was 2012,nothing overly spectacular.
The Avengers came out that year.
Yeah, but like but I mean like Imean like before like before
2012, you had Iron Man, it waslike fucking fantastic, and

(52:57):
yeah, but like you also hadmovies like The Incredible Hulk
and Hulk that were like reallynot that great.
This would actually be not toobad.
I mean I'd really enjoy this.
And uh because I love and I lovethe world, I love world
building, I love lore.
And I'm like this is such likethis has the potential to be so

(53:17):
so good.

SPEAKER_00 (53:18):
I could run a DD game in this world, quite
honestly.
Like warring factions, yep,absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 (53:24):
That's why like my my current campaign on because
I've started watching black sablack sales again.
I've created a part of a piratecampaign.
So that that's the campaign onMondays.
So I really enjoy this movie andI still do I still do enjoy it,
even though there are partsbecause the the thing that I
think if I'm nitpicking that Ihated the most is the writing

(53:48):
and the writing dialogue.
The dialogue, yeah.
That that's what I would get.
And the whole purpose of thethird their whole reasoning,
what they're just there to helpthe world destroy itself
quicker.

SPEAKER_01 (54:02):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (54:03):
What they got internally is what they can't
wait.

SPEAKER_00 (54:05):
No, or just let it play.
Let it play.

SPEAKER_02 (54:08):
No, that's like uh but anyway, but I think also I
do think also the fact that thatDJ was getting close to working
at the ninth ring also was acause of them saying, Hey, we
need to get fucked we need toget fucked to get rid of
Hillium.
Yeah, it wasn't so much Ilium,it's just per.
They just need to get rid ofher, they could have just
assassinated her at some pointwhen she was sleeping at night.

SPEAKER_00 (54:26):
Well, that's what I mean.
I did I didn't get the fullscene where where Mark Strong's
character does the wholemonologue to John Carter, which
is also a nitpick for me for allmovies.
I hate it when the villainmonologues to the hero when
they've got them beat.
I'm like, you know what's gonnahappen here.
He's gonna escape and use allthe knowledge that you gave him
to thwart your evil plan.
No one doesn't like don't dothat.
Thwart my plans.

(54:48):
Like that's that's obviouslypride and hubris in in action,
right?
There is like don't don'tposture and tell everybody your
plan before it's actually fullyDon't tell people you're
internal when you can get shotwith a pistol and die.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Your racing rash, your stars.

SPEAKER_02 (55:05):
I will I I give this three.

SPEAKER_00 (55:07):
Okay.
That's serviceable.

SPEAKER_02 (55:09):
Nice solid three.

SPEAKER_00 (55:10):
I will note before we put this on our fandom
portals on a board, we do have acomment from Reload161, who's a
member of our threads community.
They had a really sort ofsummarizing comment for this,
and they said uh verbatim,they're just like, ah geez,
well, in the end, I wasn't a bigfan of the movie.
It felt kind of bloated, butthat's not to say that there
weren't some elements I didn'tlike.

(55:31):
I really liked the score.
I thought it had a pretty coolsweeping theme by Michael
Giacino.
Then again, it's been a fewyears, it might have to be time
for a revisit.
So at the very least, thePhantom Porters podcast, we hope
to do that by our enticingsocial media posts of the
episodes we put out there.
Give it a rewatch, give itanother go.
Yeah, see what you can learnfrom it.

SPEAKER_02 (55:50):
Exactly.
That's that's the thing,especially.

SPEAKER_00 (55:52):
It's the shtick of our whole podcast.

SPEAKER_02 (55:53):
When you yeah, when you watch when you watch
something when you're younger,it's always good to go back and
revisit it so you can try andcatch the things that you may
not have noticed.
Because I always enjoy likere-watching something and going,
hey, I didn't catch that before,but now I've caught it this
time.
Or rewatching meaning, like Ididn't see it playing out this
way, or the theme of it beinglike this, but now that I'm
rewatching it, like I can seethe move from a different

(56:15):
perspective.
Yeah.
I always enjoy that.
And that's our whole that's ourwhole purpose.

SPEAKER_00 (56:19):
That is our whole purpose indeed.
Three divided by two.
Ah damn it.
So 2.75 is what it gets.

SPEAKER_02 (56:26):
2.75.

SPEAKER_00 (56:27):
2.75 between Brash's rating of three and mine of 2.5
out of five.
Well, this is kind of easy.

SPEAKER_02 (56:32):
Kinda easy?

SPEAKER_00 (56:33):
Yeah.
So it sits 22nd on our PhantomPortals honor board.
It is below Venom, the lastdance, and above the Ewoks
Adventure.
It is the only thing so far thatwe have rated 2.75.

SPEAKER_01 (56:43):
Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 (56:44):
There you go.
So that was easy.
Below Venom.
Venom.
Yeah, above Ewok.
So, with that, ladies andgentlemen, boys and girls, we
have finished our episode onJohn Carter.
The first episode in our newtheme arc of failure isn't
final, where we have learnedsomething today from this movie
that has catastrophicallyflopped.

(57:05):
We would be greatly appreciativeif you would not let this
podcast flop.
And you would share it with afriend on socials or even just
word of mouth, does a great biglot for small podcasters like
us.
And if you're watching this onYouTube, you'll be currently
seeing a picture of Ace, who isour third unofficial co-host and
husky pup that belongs to Brash,but is loved by me also, and

(57:25):
he'll be very sad if you don't.
So there's a little guilt tripfor you.
I don't usually do them, buthere we are.
Next week, Brash, we are doingyour favorite movie of all time,
Aragon from 2006.
I love dragons, but Brash hatesthis movie.
So he's gonna hold all thesecomments off until next week's
episode, but you can be surethat will be the synopsis of the

(57:49):
episode, basically.

SPEAKER_02 (57:50):
And also, guys, I love you all.
I'm not angry, just disappointedSpeed Racer.

SPEAKER_00 (57:55):
He wanted Speed Racer.
Our community picks are final.
We do have our community pickscoming up as well, which is
content voted by you.
If you want to be a part ofthose sorts of things as well
and disappoint Brash even more,you can get on our social medias
and vote for the movies that hewants or does not want, however
you want to feel.
But Aragon is next up, and we'llbe learning all about or seeing

(58:15):
what we can learn about fromthat flop.
And Brash, I challenge you tofind something that you learn
from this.
Yes, yes.
Finding the weeks to come.
That one will be out very, verysoon.
Guys, before we sign off, wealways do our gratitudes.
For me, I'm grateful for myfootball team friends here at
the Townsville Cyclones.

(58:36):
There's a great bunch ofgentlemen there.
This morning we went for amorning run, which isn't my
favorite thing to do, but doingit with mates motivates me to do
that.
And they're a great bunch oflads to talk to.
So thank you to the TownsvilleCyclones.
Thank you for the run club thathappens on Sunday mornings,
keeping me fit.
They're all, I won't sayincredibly younger than me, but
there is between five andfifteen years age difference

(58:58):
between our youngest and andoldest player.
So I'm grateful that I'm able tospend my time with some amazing
people that help my mentalwealth being.
But yes, your gratitudes, Brash.

SPEAKER_02 (59:11):
My gratitudes, I am grateful for Instagram reels.
Recently those food ones.
Where food makes yeah, wherepeople just make like these
weird foods or make foods, andthen you have other people who
try and make them and say andsee if they slap or not.
Very cool.
I learned how to make Big Macsauce because of that.

(59:33):
I know.
And I made I made my own Big Macburgers.
Very nice.

SPEAKER_00 (59:37):
Absolutely delicious.
So, ladies and gentlemen, boysand girls, that is it for our
John Carter episode on FailureIsn't Final.
Keep learning, keep growing,keep loving Phantoms.
See you later, everybody.
Bye.

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