Treasure Planet (2002) Masculinity, Father-Son Relationships and the Impact of One True Connection | Failure Isn't Final - The Fandom Portals Podcast

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
How often do we carry old wounds into new

(00:02):
relationships without evenrealizing it?
And what happens when someonefinally shows up for you in the
way that no one else ever has?
In this episode, you'll learnhow Treasure Planet shows that
being the person that steps upfor someone when the past has
burnt them can make all thedifference in the world.

(00:31):
Welcome to the Phantom PortalsPodcast, the podcast that
explores how fandoms and filmcan help us learn and grow.
I'm Aaron, a teacher andlifelong film fan, and each week
on the podcast, we explore thestories we love to learn more
about ourselves and the worldsthat shape us.
As always, today I'm joined byBrash Rackham.
How are you, Brash?
Hello, I am very well.

(00:52):
Good to have you here, Brash.
And we are here to talk aboutthe third movie in our theme arc
of Failure Isn't Final, where wetalk about the movies that aimed
high, stumbled, but still havesomething to teach us.
From the misguided epics tomisunderstood visions, this

series will ask (01:06):
what do stories that failed to find their
audience teach us aboutourselves?
This week we are doing acommunity pick brash.
We did a poll on our Instagramthat lasted for it was a it was
a fight bracket, like one ofthose cool fight bracket things.
We do one of those.
And you guys voted for thismovie, and it was this and eight

(01:27):
others or something like that.
But this one came outvictorious.
It's Treasure Planet from 2002.
So that's the movie we're doing.
And before we get into our mostvaluable takeaways and to talk
to you about what we're going tobe focusing on for this episode,
just a ground you brash is goingto give you one of his famous
synopses.
So without any further ado,Brash, tell us all about

(01:48):
Treasure Planet from 2002.

SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
What can I say?
Treasure Planet, a spaceadventurer, featuring teen
angst, pirate shenanigans, andquestionable parenting.
A long time ago, in a galaxyfar, far away, Jim Hawkins, a
teenage disaster with greathair, is busy perfecting his
life's passion, extreme sportsthat will inevitably cause

(02:09):
property damage.
His hobbies include brooding,skating on solar power death
traps, and brooding whileskating on solar power death
traps.
His life changes when a dyingspace pirate literally literally
crashes into his workplace andhands him a glowing orb that
essentially says, Hey kid, on anentire planet made of treasure
and danger, press here.

(02:32):
Naturally, Jim opens it and Jinuh Jim opens it, revealing a
story long told to him by hismother.
Jim ends up joining amagnificent steampunk space
galleon, which is captained byCaptain Amelia, a feline woman
who is 90% charm, 10% Sass, and100% out of Dr.
Doppler's league.

(02:53):
No matter what the universe.
The crew, imagine hiring for anormal job, but your applicants
all is exclusively people you'dnever let house to your plants.
They're all pirates, everysingle one, except for Dr.
Doppler, who is what you getwhen you cross a golden
retriever and a Victorianastronomer.
Astromer?
Most suspicious of all is JohnSilver, a cyborg cook with

(03:15):
suspicious number of mechanicallimbs and the vibe of a man
who's definitely mutiny beforebreakfast.
But he's also gives Jim actuallife advice.
So it's confusing for everyone.
Jim and Silver, the this isdefinitely therapy arc, because
Silver is told of Jim's absentdad.
And Silver's just like, fine,I'll do it myself.

(03:37):
What begins as a uh I will 100%betray you quickly turns into
the most heartwarming father-sonbonding montage in Disney
history.
There are lessons aboutresponsibility, tough love,
emotional eye contact, andshared trauma of having to deal
with a malfunctioning robot whospeaks exclusively in chaos.
Silver and Jim bond so hard thateven the audience forget Silver

(03:58):
is uh is in fact planningpiracy.
And everyone who watches themovie now says, Why did this
masterpiece flop?
Well, because the universe sawgreatness forming and said,
absolutely not.
Treasure Plan is like thatbeautiful, misunderstood friend
who peaked after high school.
Box Office disaster, absolutely.
Cult classic, no doubt.

(04:18):
If they ever made a live actionremake, I think we'd all go
feral.

SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Very, very true.
I think the biggest thing for meis definitely that animation
style, which we'll probably talkabout very, very soon.
But a lot of compellingcharacters in this one, Brash, a
lot of compelling characters,some of which will feature in
our most valuable takeaway,which was that sometimes the
greatest treasure is beingsomeone who helps another
recognize the wounds in theirpast and showing them that some

(04:44):
kindness is needed for them tomove forward into who they're
supposed to be.
We're gonna look at themes inthis one, such as like coming of
age through connection.
We're gonna look at some aspectsof fatherhood, masculinity, and
the expectation of boys throughthe characters of Silver and
Jim.
And we're gonna look atspecifically in terms of like
men and fathers, the balancebetween ambition and compassion.

(05:06):
And we're also gonna look at thepower of like one impactful
relationship on anybody's life,whether it be a boy or a young
person that you're helping or afriend.
So the power and impact of thatone person, that could be you,
or you might be the onereceiving it.
So that's our MVT, and we'regonna look into that very, very
soon.
But Brash, those first thoughtsof this amalgamation of 2D and

(05:28):
3D animations.
We'll start off with a threadscommenter, MXXTCH.
I don't know how to phoneticallysay that.
Says it's certainly one of thefew animated Disney features
that actually deserves a chancefor a live action remake.

SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
Yeah, I see that.
Well, see, it is probably one ofthe Disney's greatest animated
films.
Let's let's be honest.
But like like there's also otherones like you can't go past like
Lion King.
Oh, yeah.
Like that's like one of theall-time grades.

SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
Yeah, I I kind of watched this one and I hadn't
seen it for a really long time.
I probably watched it when I was13 or 14.
Didn't really hit.
It was just like a video storerental.
But then I watched it now, and Ithink the fact that I am now
like a father and I work at aschool with kids and I see these
kind of relationships happeningall the time, or these kind of

(06:22):
patterns in young boys happeningall the time.
I think it hit me a little bitharder this time when I watched
it.
I think that it was reallyambitious in 2002 to do a
combination of animation stylesin terms of the 2D, the 3D, and
then there was also 3D CGI thatwas rendered to a flat piece.
So all of Silver's like cogs andcyborg tree was the CGI that was

(06:44):
rendered down into a flat.
Yeah, and Ben as well.
He was he was also rendered downinto the flat.
But then there was alsoobviously the ships and some of
the background were were reallyobviously CGI, and it blended
these these two things prettypretty well together, I thought.
Like it stood up to a 2025viewing.
But at the time, I'm not sure ifthat was so well received

(07:05):
because I think Disney wasmoving pretty much forward into
their 3D animation space afterthe success of like their Pixar
runs of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (07:14):
I l I love I love the because there's sometimes
it's hit and miss, but I thinkthey did it like extremely well.
Because sometimes when you blenda 2D in with a 3D, it's sort of
it feels really out of place,like you're basically putting
like an old 2D cartoon over aflash new 3D modeled like world.

(07:36):
Yeah, so it's yeah, um, but Ibelieve they I think it's more
of because of the colourpatterns they use, they were
able to blend it in a lot moreto make it seem a bit more
seamless.
And uh yeah, I'm I was I was I'mreally impressed with especially
when they did it back in whatI'm pretty impressed with what
they were able to accomplish.

SPEAKER_00 (07:55):
Yeah, well I think that especially in the character
design of Silver, like flat havea 2D animated character like
Silver with some prettyflattened elements on him, and
not having it stand out so muchthat because if you remember the
scene where he's like cookingthe soup for the first time, and
everything's just impressive,it's quite quick, it's fluid, it

(08:16):
blends both of those animationstyles in so well, and it's like
you see the intricacy of hishand and the like the expert
design of that CGI animation,but then it's also obviously
blended with the 2D landscapeand the 2D design of Silver as
well.

SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
I think that'd be the scene that I'd say like to
everyone to watch, be like,that's what I mean.
Like, just watch that scene andyou'll understand exactly what
I'm saying, how everything justsort of just all sort of they
were able to like fade it andblend it all in together to make
one whole cohesive like project.

SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
Yeah.
I think an another aspect for methat I really enjoyed about
this, other than the charactersand the sort of relationship
dynamics and the themes presentwas the like the mashup of
pirates and space.
I think that always works well.
I can't think of a time when ithasn't worked well and it hasn't
hit for me.
But also like futuristfuturistic steampunk coexisting

(09:12):
with a classic piece ofliterature such as Robert Lewis
Stevenson's Treasure Island.
I think that whoever was sittingat the boardroom and having that
discussion was just like, okay,Treasure Island, but space is
just like that.
What a it's never been donebefore for one, but it's a
genius idea, and it's onlyoutranked by one Treasure Island
adaptation, which we've spokenabout before, and that is the

(09:34):
Muppets version of the MuppetTreasure Island, which is is
great.
But I think adding that likesteampunk element of it really
gave some depth to the story,rebranded it for a new audience,
but also like Jim was able to beshown as having more unique sets
of skills present for like amodern audience, so it made him
seem youthful compared to someof the pirates that were really

(09:57):
good at like seafaring andworking on boats and stuff.
Like he had that mechanicalacumen about him that obviously
isn't present in the literaturecharacter, but they took what
was good about Jim and theybuilt upon it by giving him that
little bit extra.
So I think that was somethingthat they did really well, also,
and it blended well with thefact that they were using old
school Disney animation and newDisney animation, pushing that

(10:20):
together because it's almostlike metaphorical.
Because if you're looking atRobert Lewis Stevenson's
Treasure Island being writtenway back in the early 1900s, I
don't know the exact year, butit was early, like that's the
old piece of literature, likethe old 2D animation, and then
blending it with the 3Danimation, which is the
steampunk, I think like itmetaphorically fits together

(10:41):
too.
So it's pretty smart of thedirectors to actually go for
this choice.
That's Ron Clements and JohnMuscar to blend those two
aspects.

SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
And um, I think it was a good choice too, because
if you if you look at mo likepretty much all of the Treasure
Planet, Treasure Islands andeverything in all the literature
for Treasure Planet, Jim isalways a like 10, 9, 10-year-old
kid.
Yep.
Like he's always like reallyyoung and honestly pretty
useless in all situations.

(11:13):
So where in this one they madehim like a bit, they made him
older and they made him moreable to bond with I reckon bond
better with Silver because he'sable to actually like do
hierarchy things that helps thembond together, yeah and more
faring things that bond themtogether.

(11:34):
Feel the fact that they made himaldo and more capable with
already a set of like his ownset of skills, yeah, that make
made him sort of stand out more,I think, to Silva to make him
want to be like, he there's moreto this kid than me see I.
And that's what sort of promptshim to actually get more

(11:54):
involved with him.

SPEAKER_00 (11:55):
Yeah, I I agree.
And I think that making himolder is also good because you
can see a range of emotionalarcs from him.
Like obviously, he's the angstyrebellious teenager when we meet
him, but he's got a historybefore that, which we explore in
Treasure Planet, which thenSilver taps into in a in a
particular way.
But I think without him being ateenager, the solid arc that

(12:18):
develops for Jim across themovie, it wouldn't be as
successful because obviously theheart of the story is the
relationship between Jim andSilver.
But that being said, there ismore to that relationship now
because Jim is able to makeautonomous decisions as a
teenager.
He's got a personality of hisown.
He doesn't just imprint on anadult because he's a cool pirate

(12:38):
that does dangerous things.
Like there is actually a littlebit of a psychological why as
why they actually start todevelop this relationship and
why Silver then reciprocatesthat in return.
So I think that that was abrilliant choice as well,
because not only did it probablybecause I I definitely think
this movie is targeted towardsboys, like a boy audience, and

(12:59):
probably around that age group,around the like the 10 to 15, 16
sort of year level.
So making that protagonist Jimolder also helps in that front.
It helps them relate to theprimary character in in Jim
Hawkins as well.
So I think it had a lot ofthings going for it, but we know
that we're doing this film brashbecause it fundamentally
flopped.
It was budgeted to$140 million,which was the most expensive,

(13:23):
I'll quote 2D animated moviethat Disney's ever done to date.
And worldwide, box office-wise,it only earned$100 million.
So to Disney, includingmarketing as well, like a loss
of quite a lot of money.
They actually said that theywrote off$74 million for this
movie, which is prettysignificant.
And I think one of the reasonsfor that was a lot of people

(13:44):
have said, and some people onour our threads have noted this
as well, that there was acrowded Christmas uh holiday
movie bracket.
Like this came out exactly thesame time as Harry Potter and
the Chamber of Secrets.

SPEAKER_01 (13:56):
Yeah, I've got that reading here.

SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Literally.
So it it hundred percent hadlots and lots of competition to
to try and stand out in on aChristmas sort of market.
And I think like we had athreader, Marshall Fisher 03.
They said they totallykneecapped it for no reason, and
Disney tried to push and gofully 3D, but they also released

(14:25):
it during a time when they saidthat it was released during
Chamber of Secrets, Spider-Man2, Revenge of the Sith, all of
these movies came out this sameyear, 2002, and it was just like
it was not destined to stand outabove those franchise IPs.
And I think that's a real bigshame because it's definitely
rose in significance and appealas people have started to

(14:49):
re-evaluate it over time.
And again, it's almost likepeople watched this when they
were 12, grew up and startedadvocating for it when they were
in their 20s to 30s, and thennow it's getting this this
resurgence, which I think isgreat because again, it was
voted by you guys, ourcommunity, as one that you
wanted us to do on the podcast.
So it's got some popularitythere, but it did indeed flop.

SPEAKER_01 (15:08):
And I I'm thinking back to it in 2012.
I was 12, we were 12, andthinking back to those those
sort of days, like it was almostto the point where we I think as

(15:29):
a sort of generation had sort ofstopped watching cartoons and
were moving firmly into the liveaction movies, whatever they uh
go to, like your Harry Potter's,your Lord of the Rings, and if
you wanted something fantasybased, it was always like, oh,
let's go look for the liveaction rather than the animated
versions.

(15:50):
And I think that would have andbecause it wasn't very m
marketed very well either, Ithink it was that those two
things of like just the time ofthe time of how it was, how
watching a Disney cartoon now at12 years old as a boy who seems
very anti-masculine and yeah,not the cool thing.

(16:11):
Not the cool thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 (16:12):
Yeah, which is funny because this movie deals with
themes like that too.
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (16:16):
Which we'll get into a bit later, but but I feel uh
there it's just just the timethe timing of it, I think, was
rock.
Because the directors said theyweren't going to do Hercules
unless they could do TreasurePlanet afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
Yeah, because this was a passion project for those
those two.

SPEAKER_01 (16:33):
But they wanted to do it years beforehand.

SPEAKER_00 (16:39):
Can't remember when I read that it was 17 years in
the making, just from initialconceptual idea to actually
premiere.

SPEAKER_01 (16:47):
So it was originally pitched in 1985 during the
production.
But they ended up doing theGreat Mouse Detective, which
also I love that movie too.
Dang it movie.
Love that.
And then they tried again afterdirecting The Little Mermaid,
and then they said no, and thenthey instead had to do Aladdin.

(17:08):
Then after directing Aladdin,they're like, Oh, can we do it
again?
And they're like, No, I want youto direct Hercules, and they're
like, Alright, fine, we'll doHercules, but we'll only do
Hercules if we can do first planafterwards, and then finally
able to do that.
So, and like Hercules was likewhat 1997, so then like, yeah,
what five years later they wouldbring it out and bring it to

(17:28):
life.

SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
Yeah, I th I think this one was actually also more
obviously experimental in termsof its animation, and I think
that might have put off somelike Disney traditionalists, you
might say, because they wereeither always fully in the 2D
camp or fully in the 3D camp,and this mixed both.
Yeah.
With that being said, though,Disney's always merged some form
of computer animation, even theearly classics like Aladdin when

(17:51):
he's going through the Cave ofWonders, as it's yeah, that's
the earliest, and even theBeauty and the Beast ballroom
dance sequence, they've alwayssort of merged them well, but I
think this one was more outwardin its expression of hey, we are
actually merging these two setsorts of animation styles.
And I think like maybe that's areason as well.
But yeah, I think that the likeyou could say that there might

(18:12):
have also been an ambiguoustarget audience.
I think it was definitely forboys and teenagers, but that
also might put off some peoplebecause as you said before,
teenagers going to see animatedmovies might not be the the
thing that happens, and youknow, marketing this as like an
adventure or a genetic a genericadventure movie may not have
been the right course of actionif that's the target audience

(18:35):
you're going for.
So I think there was definitelysome some difficulties in terms
of how this was portrayed, butI'm just sad to say and and sad
to hear that because of thislike flop status, it's not
getting a second look in termsof a live-action remake.
Honestly, I don't know if I'dlike one.
I'd watch it if it came out, butI don't think this needs one.

SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
Yeah, it depends on what they do with it.
Like if they go sort of downlike the Lion King, Lilo Stitch
root, and a true shot for shotand just botch it, or if they go
like what's the like the onlyDisney movie that's actually got
a lot of action, it's reallygood.
Is there one Jungle Book?
The Jungle Book?
I'll I like Jungle Book.

(19:18):
Yeah, they'd have to, they'dhave to oh to do what they did,
what DreamWorks did for how totrain your dragon.
Add it a little bit.
Added a little bit, but prettymuch kept the whole thing
exactly how the animated moviewent.

SPEAKER_00 (19:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, we had some conflictingopinions on our threads as well,
because as I said before, we hadone threader that said this is
definitely a Disney movie thatdeserves a live action remake.
Atlantis as well was in thatlist.
And then somebody could somebodyelse said Atlantis could get a
live action, and then also notDisney, but Road to El Dorado
could get a live action remake.

(19:50):
Both of those movies alsoflopped, by the way.
So I think like all three ofthose movies are pretty heavily
tailored towards boys and lesslike kid friendly as well.
So I think it could hurt couldhave hurt the movies, but I I
like live action-wise, not anecessity for me because I think
this story is best told as itsits right now.
And I really do like thecreative choice to blend those

(20:11):
two animation styles formetaphorical reasons, but also
like visually it looks good.
So I'm happy with how it is.

SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
Maybe who shows his gym?

SPEAKER_00 (20:18):
Oh, these days you could go with like Mason Thames,
who is like hiccup from how totrain your dragon.
You can go with him.
You could definitely like ifJoseph Gordon Levitt was
younger, who is the voice actorfor Jim Hawkins, like that's
just he's perfectly played.
So turn back time and give methat.
Another one, hmm, I don't know.

(20:39):
Maybe one of the Stranger Thingsboys.
Well, I was actually thinking uhTimothy Chalonet.
I don't think he'd do it though.

SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
I reckon he'd he'd be a good Jim.

SPEAKER_00 (20:50):
Yeah, yeah, I think so too, because he could
definitely pull off the um Theteenager look.
Yep, and the the angst as well.
He's got lots of emotionalrange, and he could definitely
get into those sort of softermoments and pull out the
emotionality too, because he'sdefinitely a brilliant actor,
but maybe Finn Wolfhart too,like he's pretty good, like from
Stranger Things.
Yeah, and he's got the physiquetoo, like he's like lanky and

(21:13):
teenage-looking too.
So, yeah.
We were talking as well, justoff camera before we were doing
this treasure planet episodeabout the importance of the
character of John Silver, and wemight sort of dive into our MVT
now and sort of start there.
So our MVT is sometimes thegreatest treasure is being
someone who helps anotherrecognize the wounds of their
past and then showing someonethe kindness that they need to

(21:35):
then move forward.
And Silver does portray thatrole, but we said it's very
difficult to portray a Long JohnSilver well, and we both agree
that like Tim Curry in theMuppets version, absolutely
phenomenal because he plays likevillainous really well, but like
villainous with a little bit ofcharm, and he also plays that
tenderness really well, and allthree are absolutely necessary

(21:56):
for a Long John Silver persona.
And, you know, this this versionof Long John Silver is voiced by
Barry Murray, and I think he hedoes a really good job of
connecting us to the characterearly through the way that he
speaks, obviously through piratevernacular, but then our
introduction to John Silver ishim in the cook's perspective

(22:21):
cooking up a meal for everybody,and then the filmmakers do this
wonderful thing by pairing himwith Morph to show his
compassionate side, and he'salways like very true and very
honest with his opinions, and heseems very welcoming and polite
and gentle, so they really likelure us into this sort of false
sense of comfort with him.
And I feel like Jim also feltthat, obviously, being very

(22:42):
skeptical from being warnedabout the cyborg, too.
But I feel like Lon Long JohnSilver is, and I've said this on
our threads, I think he's one ofthe greatest characters ever
written by Robert LewisStevenson, but also portrayed in
these movies, he has to be doneright for it to be a success.
So yeah, I I can't say enoughgood things about Silver.

SPEAKER_01 (23:04):
Oh, yeah, 100%.
The only thing I wish a bit moreof is because you don't get to
see too much of it, but like inthe scene where he has to go
full pirate, I had I wished ithad been a bit more uh more
aggressive.
Because even when he was goneoff, it was just him just
yelling and barking orders, itwasn't really him yucking.

(23:26):
You can sort of like you sawit's just sort of sort of
touching on his sort of actualpirate side.
Yeah.
Like when um when he tells offuh Scoop or whatever his name
is.

SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
Yeah, Scoop.
Played by Michael Wincott, bythe way, who is from The Crow.
He's the villain in the crow.
Insane deep voice, amazing forthe character.
What a what a character designtoo, just completely villainous
and scary.
Go ahead, Brash, sorry, I cutyou off.

SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
No, no, that's fine.
Um, but um, yeah, yeah.
But he plays the charmingswashbuckling father figure like
so perfectly.
Like every time he's likesitting there talking to Jim,
and like even the way he speaks,you're like he he speaks talks
like the old school long JohnSilver with a very thick pirate

(24:15):
vernacular, but then just thetone of voice and just the depth
of voice is almost like youcould almost like close your
eyes and hear your own fatherspeaking.
Yeah, sort of thing as a kid.
Like he's just like that is justhe was just perfect to a T.
I just wish they had of somehowdid more with his villainous
pirate side.

SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
Yeah.
Well, I think part of that isobviously because like it's a
kid's movie for one, but fortwo, I feel like Long John
Silver is a character and inthis movie Treasure Planet, is
he's a character that's in verymuch a lot of conflict because
he's in conflict with himself.
He's spent his life ambitiouslyseeking this treasure, which I
feel like is him sort ofself-validating his own

(24:58):
importance and his worth.
And in order for him to sort ofget that and to fit into and to
be seen as worthy, he has to bethis leader of the pirates who
is very boisterous, who is verymenacing and fierce, and he has
this reputation where everybodyhas to worry about the cyborg,
and he goes and he like destroysthe Benbo Inn, for example.

(25:19):
And in these scenes that you seehim around his pirate crew, he's
very much posturing thishypermasculinity in front of the
crew, and he's very muchsuppressing the feelings that
he's having of genuineconnection.
Because when I first watchedthis movie as well, in some of
the scenes when you're lookingat him, and he's making these
genuine promises to Jim later,when he's when he says, you

(25:41):
know, if you give me the map,then we can I'll give you an
equal share in the treasure.
You're sort of questioning like,is this the genuine silver or is
he just going to betray him?
Are we waiting for a betrayalhere?
And I think he walks that lineperfectly, but I think he does
that because the message that'sbeing portrayed here is
obviously, and I think growingup as as as boys, me, me, for

(26:03):
example, you're always sort ofgiven the message from your
friend group at least, andsometimes from people's parents,
you know, stay tough, do it allby yourself, be strong.
Like that's the the boymasculinity thing, the
expectation of boys, and it'svery common to this day.
It's more more common in variousdifferent cultural settings as
well.
But I think I don't think Silveris being his true self when he

(26:24):
is around his his piratecompanions.
And he says things like, youknow, like he's going to do the
same thing that happened to Mr.
Arrow to Scroop.
He's going to send him off andbe and he always resorts to that
sort of hypermasculine threatsof violence, posturing a loud
voice, yelling and screaming,throwing his weight around,
transferring his cyborg arm intoweapons, and just doing these

(26:46):
really big threats as a as ameans of portraying his power.
But I think the true John Silveris the version that we see of
him around Jim and when he'sactually having those genuine
conversations.
And you're right, because he isextremely attentive to Jim's
needs.
He takes an interest in what helikes to do.
He also like is genuinelyconcerned when he shows that

(27:09):
he's upset.
And I think also it's because hedoes see an element of himself
in Jim as a young man, but healso shows this vulnerability
and almost unintentionally ahealthy sort of masculinity for
Jim as he shows that compassion.
You can see him cuddling up tomore for not being afraid to
show that he really likes thiscute little adorable creature.

(27:33):
He talks about family when he'sfirst met and how it's an old
family recipe, which alsostrengthens the connection
there.
But he even like complimentsCaptain Amelia as well.
So he says, Yeah, you're as trimas a bonnie on a sloop with
sails and a fresh coat of paint.
And she's just like, keep thatflim flammery to yourself.
And he's just like, Oh, he goes,You cut me to the quick,

(27:53):
Captain.
I speak nothing but my heart allthe time.
And I'm like, that's actuallyprobably true about him.
Like he does speak honestly inthat aspect.
So I think for me, John reallyrepresents this man in conflict
where of the man he's supposedto be to his community as a as
what a man should be, and thenwho he actually is as a highly

(28:16):
emotionally sensitive guy whoreally wants to show this
vulnerable side but is unable tobecause he has this sense of
worth that isn't being met, andhe feels like finding golden
treasure will do that.
I especially like the scenewhere Jim asks him, So had that
happened to you anyway?
And he's referring to his hiscyborg attachments, and he says,

(28:38):
You give up with a few thingswhile you're chasing your dream,
and then Jim goes, Was it worthit?
And then Silver goes, I'm hopingit will be.
And I'm like, but that that justgoes to show, you know, and it
goes with the metaphor as well,you you give an arm and a leg
for XYZ, whatever it is, andhe's given an arm and a leg for
this ambition, this treasure,this need to feel worthy, this

(29:00):
want.
But I also think that he'sprobably equally wanting that
connection which he sees withJim.

SPEAKER_01 (29:08):
Yeah.
And like I would have likedbecause there was there's a
scene in the Muppets version ofTreasure Island where Jim and
Silver are talking, and Silvermakes a joke or something about
Will's father.
Yeah.
Jim's father.
And he's like, oh, sorry, boy, Ididn't mean to upset you.

SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
He was only playing Jim.
And he apologises too, doesn'the?

SPEAKER_01 (29:30):
Yeah, and he's like, um, he's like, oh, I my father
died too when I was young, whenI was eight, and he was a first
mate.
And then Jim's like, Oh, myfather's a first mate as well.
When he died, blah blah, andthen that sort of like helped
like bond them make that initialconnection.
They're both both roughly thesame age when they both lost

(29:51):
their fathers, blah blah blah,and their fathers were both
doing the same job.
And I think that helped likereally cement their bonds.
And I think something like thatI think something like that
probably would have helped memore believe that this
villainous pirate would have achange of heart towards this
kid, even though you do see liketheir bonds grow and he does

(30:14):
sort of find this this thing,there's no real straight up
side-by-side connection betweenthese two, like sort of like the
gym and the silver hat in theMuppets version.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, they don't tell us how orwhy.

SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (30:27):
Yeah.
I would have liked to know whyhe sees a lot of himself in him.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:32):
And I think um they do they do a little bit of that
in this movie where like Silvertells him, Didn't your your pup
ever teach you how to pickfights more carefully or
something like that?

SPEAKER_01 (30:42):
And then he's like, Oh no, no, he just dad abandoned
us, blah blah blah.
He's like, Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
And he's like, But yeah, I think that was that was
them kind of alluding to thefact and I think Silver does
apologize in that moment too.
He goes, Oh, sorry boy, I didn'tknow that kind of thing.
But he go he's he realizes thatJim has kind of grown up without
a father in this aspect.
But I also have noted, and itmight be me reading into
Silver's character a little bittoo much, but on a few of the

(31:08):
scenes you can see him justgiving these sort of glances and
looks that is animated in aswell to Jim that shows that he's
kind of being introspective.
So if he looks like down to theleft or whatever, or if he kind
of looks at Jim and lookssorrowful, I took that as him
being kind of introspective andreflecting on how he is or how
he wants to be or how his ownemotions or feeling at least a

(31:30):
little bit of empathy towardsJim, which is obviously a
feeling that pirates shouldn'thave, or in this aspect, like
like expectation of masculinitythat isn't appropriate in his
particular workplace, becausehe's very guarded about his
interactions with Jim.
Like they've been put togetherto work together in close
quarters, and they're alwaysseen side by side, and you can

(31:52):
see them in that montage doingvarious different activities
together, but it's even to thepoint where like Scroop teases
Silver about his relationshipwith Jim.
And you know, one of the lastthings that Silver says, because
you know, Scroop sees him sayingthat he's got the makings of

(32:13):
greatness in him, and we'llbreak down that scene a little
bit later, too.
But the last thing John Silversays in that moment to his mates
is I ain't gone soft.
So he's very aware that he needsto sort of keep up appearances
in this part of his life, but Ifeel like that montage does a
lot for us in terms of buildingthat relationship between the

(32:36):
two because it's a side-by-side,like it's a side-by-side
comparison.
And not only does it show thewound that Jim has, which is
obviously his father leaving andabandoning him, but it also
juxtaposes that, pushes itstraight together with Silva
showing up for him in the waythat the father never did.
And it never tells us why thefather left, it just shows us

(32:58):
that it like he did.
And I think that that abruptloss can, like in in a child's
formative years, it can disrupta child's internal working model
to the point where they're notable to trust or be emotionally
ready for other relationships,or they have this heightened
expectation of disappointmentand rejectment, and they can

(33:20):
later develop rebellious orself-isolationist behaviors to
the point where we see that inJim.
Like he grows up to be thisrebellious, risk-taking young
man who's brought back to theBenbo Inn by the mechanical
police.
And like even the last scenewhere he's riding his solar

(33:40):
board, you see him like go uppast through the atmosphere,
metaphorical of him likebreaking through the constraints
of his life right now.
He goes up through theatmosphere and then he like free
falls down.
Like that's a risky, risk-takingbehavior, and it's almost like
he doesn't really care becauseno one's really cared about him.
He's got this detachment becausehe has learnt that having

(34:01):
connection is hurtful.
So I think that that combinedwith the fact that like you see
the scene where he's runningdown the pier with his arm
outstretched to a father that'sgoing away, and then as he's
like reaching out, you see ascene-for-scmash cut of Jim back
when he's older, and then JohnSilver comes back in that sloop
and holds out his hand for himto come with him.

(34:23):
Like that that mashup combinedwith the the song who that was
sung by the lead singer of theGoo-Goo dolls as well.
Great, great artist.
Those two things together, Ithink, build that emotional
connection for the twocharacters for me.
Like within that, I don't knowhow long it was, it was like a
minute 40 or something likethat.
That did everything for me interms of me understanding why

(34:45):
they were so close.
So I think that there was a lotof emotional setup that led up
to that.
And I think Jim's freezeresponse in that also tells us,
you know, he's had a bit of atrauma reaction here, and
sometimes kids will shut downand be emotionally protective
after something like that.
But I feel like Silver's actionsafter that really reflect that

(35:07):
sort of presence that he wasafter.
Because one thing and one thingI like thought about as well was
yes, his father left him, but itseemed like Dr.
Doppler was always there as amale presence in his life.
So why didn't that connectionhappen for Jim?
And why did he attach himself toSilver?

SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
So Well, you gotta look at the relationship sort of
uh Dr.
Doppler and Jim's mum sort ofhad.
Like when he tries to interjecthimself to try and help Jim away
from being in trouble with therobot police.
And like, are you the father?
And he's like, Oh no, I'm not,and she's like, No way, look at
that.
He's like, sort of, like, Idon't know.

(35:51):
Like that never happened.
No, I don't think that he Idon't think there was ever sort
of like that.
If anything, he was more likethat, maybe like a distant
uncle, or yeah, that's a goodpoint too.
Sort of sort of like somethinglike that, where like he's been
around for all his life, butwhereas Jim's always been
excited about adventure and allthat kind of stuff.

(36:11):
Doppel has always wanted to goon an adventure, but he's always
been so in those in the booksand academic that that's never
really shone through.
And I think that would make it ahard connection between a kid
who wants adventure andexcitement wouldn't really mesh
with someone who's more stuck ina study and very learned.

(36:34):
But that's also probably thoughhow Jim picked up mechanical
skills as well, maybe throughthe help of Doppler.
We don't really know, but likefor some reason he seemed he
like must have like a naturalnatural sort of affinity for
mechanics.
But maybe it was the help ofDoppler, maybe giving him books
on them or something like that,or doing some sort of uncle-ish

(36:56):
sort of things to help him growin that sort of aspect, is why
he's so good at mechanics.

SPEAKER_00 (37:01):
Yeah, I definitely think it was Doppler who is the
reason behind Jim actually beingable to activate that map.
I think that was definitelysomething influenced by him,
like going through gizmos andgadgetry like that.
But I think you're right, interms of like the friendly uncle
or the guardian that's there,he's almost like, yes, he's a
friendly presence, but Doppleris very like warm and nurturing

(37:21):
also.
And he kind of gets that fromhis mum as well.
So it's almost like Doppler isis like a second helping, you
could say, or a second versionof his mum.
So he's got two sort of peoplein that sort of space for him,
but he doesn't really have thatperson who is the hands-on,
adventurous role model for himthat he kind of needed.

SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
Go in the I'd play catch person.

SPEAKER_00 (37:41):
Yeah, exactly, growing up.
So I think he's definitely gotthese isolationalist sort of
views and he's got thisself-reliance that you can see
has developed over time becausehe's built his own illegal solar
thing that he sails around on.
Windsurfer.
Yeah, windsurfer.
And, you know, he's got thesewhat um what's the word for it?

(38:02):
He's got these copingstrategies, coping behaviors
that he he needs in order tomove forward.
And you know, I think some ofthose coping strategies he may
or may not have observed fromfrom Sarah, his mother.
Like she, you can see her justlike emotionally suppressing it,
and she's always like a hardworker.
So maybe you could infer thatshe kind of swept it under the
rug and like hold it togetherand do it all for Jim.

(38:24):
But you know, research showsthat talking about and
expressing your emotions in ahealthy way and feeling them
when you feel them and talkingthem through with with kids at
age-appropriate levels isactually helpful for getting
through things in that way.
So like Sarah's silent tears,although well-intentioned, may
or may not have forced Jim tolearn that suppressing those

(38:47):
emotions is the way you getthrough hard times until he kind
of like ends up meeting Silver,who's very much like a hard on
his sleeve kind of guy, and youcan see him like very happy.
He'll express himself happily asthey're engaging in communal
activities.
And like you can see this in inkids all the time.
Like sometimes I'll in like awork setting, you can see them

(39:07):
young boys that are extremelyvulnerable are usually the most
brazen and show the most bravadoin the yard.
And like it's not a one-to-onecase, but sometimes that is a
connection, and you can see themeither disengaged or sometimes
they're clingy with a trustedadult.
Sometimes they overreact to likediscipline as well, because they

(39:28):
scan for signs all the time whenthey have this sort of
interaction that um others willleave or others will hurt them,
or connection is is tricky anddifficult, but most of the time
it's like risk seeking or risktaking behaviors as well.
So I think that through thismovie, obviously we see that

(39:48):
scene through the the mashup,but then we also see John Silver
sort of coming through and beingit's almost like a one for one.
It's it's it doesn't Jim's storydoesn't really start with
adventure, it starts.
With learning that the peoplethat need him most or that he
needs most doesn't really chooseto stay.
So that scars him and shapes himfor the rest of the movie.

(40:11):
And his relationship with Silverslowly builds to fixing that.

SPEAKER_01 (40:15):
Yeah, because like I I think one of my favorite,
well, besides Amelia, because Ithink Amelia's like my favourite
character, actually.
She is just like just so quickwitted and funny and just like
Emma Thompson voices her sowell.

SPEAKER_00 (40:26):
So good.
I just like that she brought hersort of British vernaculars into
it as well.
She's like, I'll have a spot oftea and I'll be fine after she
takes like a massive cannonbullet.

SPEAKER_01 (40:35):
Yeah, as I've got nothing to worry about.
But um uh Jim's mother, Sarah,her character is I've grown up
with like with a lot of strongwomen who like my mother, and
and I see like she a lot ofSarah in my own mother.
She's very strong-willed andvery like emotionally like keeps

(40:57):
it all in, won't let anythingout, no matter how tough it is,
no matter how much of a littleprick I was when I was a kid.
Yeah.
And I think watching it back inthe day, I was just like, oh
yeah.
But then watching it like now,especially like today, and like
I know I know a lot of motherslike I know a few mothers who
are probably the strongestpeople I've ever met in my life,

(41:20):
just purely because the amountof work and their work ethic
that they do and they put inwith little to no real give
back.
Um it's just yeah, I've alwaysnow that extra appreciative of
characters like Sarah in theseshows who sort of do their best,

(41:42):
the best they can, all the time.
And like you can still see Jim,like she, even though he never
had that sort of father figure,Jim isn't like because they they
try and make him out to be atroublemaker, but he's not like
really a troublemaker.

SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
He's got a kind heart though, that's the thing.
Like he's act he's acting out,but you know that he's a good
kid.

SPEAKER_01 (42:03):
And and his acting out was he wanted to skateboard
through the ball.
Like he didn't know.
Yeah, he didn't want to go outand kill people, he wanted to go
out and like do anything likethat.
It was just that he wanted to dosomething dangerous because he
feels like he needs to do thatto be tough and get by and get

(42:26):
through it and seek that sort ofadventure that he's been craving
for.
And I think then John helps himbring that out.
And then when John eventually uhbetrays him again, when he
realizes that he is that piratethat Billy Bones warned me
about, he sort of, instead ofhim sort of falling into that
sort of depressed, how couldyou, he sort of took the lessons

(42:49):
that Silver taught him, and thenalso took lessons he took like
growing up with his mother who'sa strong character, and was
like, you know what?
Screw you.
I'm happy who I are with who Iam and who I've got.
I don't need you, I'm strong onmy own.
And he sort of proves thattowards the end when he sort of

(43:10):
stands up to Silver.

SPEAKER_00 (43:12):
Yeah, yeah.
When he says, what does he say?
There's one thing that youtaught me, and it was to stick
with it, or something like that.
But I feel like you're right, itdoes also come from Sarah to the
point where he he has enoughdetermination within himself and
obviously emotional drive tothen go ahead and like change
his future or work towards afuture and work towards his

(43:33):
dream, which let's not forget,like Sarah was the one that told
him the bedtime stories in thefirst place and encouraged the
like in quotes legend that hebelieved was true.
So the seed of that adventurousspirit definitely belongs in
Sarah, I would say, as well.

SPEAKER_01 (43:50):
So I think Jim's character, especially when he
was younger, mistaked that seedfrom the father that Ben,
because his father went off togo on adventures.
And he probably mistaked thathis father would rather have it
would rather have adventures andgo off and swashbuckle than be

(44:11):
there with his family.
I think that's the sort of theseed of why when he does all his
uh windsurfing on the solar kitesurfboard and why it's so
dangerous and he's so likebecause he's trying to chase and
see what that thrill is that isso compelling that it made his
father leave and go off on anadventure.

(44:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:33):
That's so well said.
I think you're absolutely rightthere.

SPEAKER_01 (44:36):
And then I think he realized later on that wasn't in
fact his father, it was hismother and the people around him
who encouraged him and made himwho he is.

SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
Yeah, and I th I think that's definitely the
case, especially in that momentwhere you know he is putting a
lot of stock in Silver, and Ifeel like it's for good reason.
Like Silver is definitelysomeone who's investing time
with him.
But when they do encounterconflict, Jim and Silver both
kind of fall into old patterns,but I feel like Jim moves
through it a little bit easierthan Silver because Silver goes

(45:08):
back to his hyper-masculine kindof yelling and posturing as he
does.
And you know, he says, if it'snot done, if I don't have that
map in my hands by nightfall,I'll like blast you with all the
cannons that we have on theship.
So he definitely falls back intothose patterns because I feel
like he's been posturing orbeing this version of himself
that really isn't his his trueself for a little bit longer

(45:29):
than Jim.
And and Jim definitely sort oftakes that into account as well.
But before all this happens, Ithink that the turning point
scene for both of thesecharacters in terms of Jim and
Silver is that scene you've gotthe makings of greatness in you,
just like that scene betweenthose two after a traumatic
event, because in the movie,obviously, Arrow is lost to the

(45:52):
black hole, and Scroop is theone that cut his line, but uh
Jim was responsible for thelines.
So, and you know, Silver hasthis inkling that that is what
occurred, Scroop cut the line,but Jim is feeling very guilty
and very forlorn at the aspectthat this lost pirate or this
lost crew member may actually behis fault.
And I think the best thing thatSilva does in that scene was

(46:15):
obviously he's there for Jim,but he models this thing that we
call like co-regulation, whereyou know, if a child shows
distress or a and a caregiver'sattuned to that response, they
can either escalate or soothethe response based on how they
act.
And he kind of stayed calm, hestayed steady, he was in
proximity, and he offered like areally genuine, heartfelt

(46:37):
compliment.
And it kind of affirmedeverything that Jim kind of
believed about him that wasinstilled by Sarah in the first
place, and it was something thathe needed to hear, and obviously
by someone he respects.
And as we talked about before,Jim is this hyper-vigilant
character who's very attuned tofeeling disappointment from
connection from others as aresult of this kind of wound
that he has.

(46:58):
And Silver saying that affirmsthat belief, and he slowly
starts to open up to the pointwhere like the moment for me was
when he rests his head on hisbelly, and he was just like,
He's he's a boy that neededcomfort, and he got comfort from
Silver, and Silver's like, Whatthe heck is this?
Like, what do I do here?
And he like hugged him, and theyhad that moment of like

(47:18):
connection, but the best partabout it was that Silver doesn't
try to be perfect, like he justdid what he thought was right in
that moment and did what he feltwould be good for this boy that
he is he's soft with, and it wasactually exactly what he he
needed.
So I think the lesson andsomething I need to learn as
well about being a father is Ialways try to be this perfect

(47:41):
example or this perfectrepresentation of a dad, so my
kids can see me being a good manor a good person or good to my
my partner Kalia, so they canmodel that in their own life.
But I think what I learned fromthis movie and from watching
Silver is that he makesmistakes.
Yes, he's not perfect, but healways tries his best for one,
and then for two, he'semotionally available and ready

(48:03):
and responsive in a way that isneeded when required.
So it's not about being perfect,it's more about being present
with your time and yeah, showingup emotionally as well.
So I think that that was theturning point of resilience for
Jim because after that he sortof his possibilities expand.

(48:26):
And you can see it happen in myworkplace too, when you have
these kids that really justdon't want to connect, don't
want to engage with thelearning.
There's like things you can doin terms of like building trust
with that kid is the biggestthing that you can do.
So that doesn't have to be likebig grand gestures, it's micro
connections over an extendedperiod of time.

(48:47):
So it's like two to threepositive interactions a week you
could do.
So instead of like it might bethe kid that's always in trouble
for one, but if you're theperson that always talks to him
about how his footy game went onthe weekend, whether he's been a
good kid or whether he hasshowed some behaviors that
aren't what is acceptable,whether you are still the person
that talks to him about footy,whether he does that or he

(49:07):
doesn't, it shows that you areinvested with that child based
on their identity, not on theirbehavior.
And that's exactly what thatchild needs in order to then
open up and then create thoseopportunities for agency and
like meaningful strength-basedrelationships that provide them
with learning opportunities forthe future, but also to get a

(49:28):
little faith back in the peoplewithin a system that they may
have seen lots of them treatthem in a different way, for
example.
So I think that's what Silverdoes too in that montage where
he's like teaching him how totie a knot, peeling potatoes
together while they're justsitting next to one another.
And then, yeah, creating thoseopportunities as well for like

(49:50):
for Jim to connect through ashared activity, but also for
him to show his what's the word,prowess or skill, because you
know how he's like teaching himhow to ride that long boat, and
then he just takes the the reinsand goes.
Yeah.
So I think that's reallyimportant in that aspect of why
Silver unintentionally connectedwith Jim in the way that he
exactly needed when all he didwas kind of be himself.

(50:13):
And I also like in that scenebecause he praises his identity,
not his performance.
So he says to him, and you cando this with kids as well, you
can say, like, praise them forhow thoughtful they are, or
praise them that they're beinggenerous or kind instead of like
you won the race.
You could say, I really like theeffort that you put in.
And I think Silver does thatwhen he says you have the

(50:34):
makings of greatness in you, andthen later on he says, Look at
you shining like a solar flareor solar.
Yeah, yeah.
So he's he's commenting on thethings that make Jim's identity
who he is, not based on whetherhe's a good pirate or whether
he's a good sailor.
He cares for him whether hemakes a mistake or he he he

(50:55):
feels about him the exact sameway.
So I think that that wasprobably my favorite scene in
the movie, and it's definitely afamous one.
You see it going through the therounds all the time.
All right.
The we've and that's also showsjust how impactful one trusting
relationship can be for anindividual as well.
And that could be a friend, itcould be a child, it could be

(51:15):
somebody your own age, it couldbe an elder as well.
And it's just, yeah, that thatfaith that he had in him and to
be there when he needed him wasexactly what he what he needed.
So I think the last scene that Ikind of want to talk about in
Jim and Silver's relationship isthat goodbye scene at the end.
And I know you like, what areyour thoughts on this?

SPEAKER_01 (51:35):
Because you said you didn't really like because it
felt a little bit rushed, butI'm talking specifically about
No, I I don't mind I don't mindI don't mind them saying they're
like their goodbye sort of scenebecause that seemed like on like
it's basically as soon as I goback to the ship, he's like, uh
I'm out of here before I'm injail.
So and that that that that itwas just after that it seemed
rushed, like there was no sortof explanation or no montage, it

(51:59):
was just them all just goingback to this newly built
building where people arepregnant and had kids.

SPEAKER_00 (52:05):
Oh, right, right, right.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (52:07):
Like they just had just like jump forward however
long that was, and it just yeah,it was just a bit too quick for
me.
I would have liked to see likemaybe like the building under
like a montage like the buildingbeing reconstructed, or maybe
like Mamilia and the Doctorgetting married or something,
but um the silver and uh Jimsort of parting was like was

(52:30):
pretty spot on with how even themovies went.
Where yeah, Jim helps him escapeor lets him escape and he sails
in sunset and he calls back,wishing him all the best, and
everything like that, and you'llsee him around the solar system
and pays off.

SPEAKER_00 (52:49):
Yeah, well I think that for me that's the like for
Jim, he experiences thatdeparture again with a father
figure, you could say, but thistime it's like it's it's a
departure and it's not like abetrayal.
So it's the the difference therelike that.

SPEAKER_01 (53:03):
Well, this one's it's a goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 (53:05):
Yeah, yeah, and there there is a secure
attachment between those two nowas well, because they've they've
shown up for each other duringan experience where obviously
they'd relied on one another,and Jim was consciously chosen
by by Silver.
Like if you flash back to thescene where he's literally
choosing between the gold orJim, like obviously it's a

(53:25):
Disney movie, he's not gonna letJim fall to his death, and
Silver goes off with the gold,like what a vicious ending that
would be for us to watch.

SPEAKER_01 (53:31):
But I do like I'd like to point out that I I do
also equivalate the fact uh howmuch Silver ends up liking Jim
to Morph as well.
Yeah.
Because it was Morph who likesort of nudged him when he was
like, hold on to the sloop tosay, hey, Jim's in trouble, and

(53:54):
then he sort of like turned andhis his idle cyborg eye to spot
him and goes, damn, and then hasto make a decision.
Because if Morph hadn't attachedhim on the shoulder, he would
have just been there holding onto the ship and Jim could have
fallen and he wouldn't have beennoticed.
Yeah, but it was that more itwas that more because I think
Morph Morph was sort of liketheir tether in a way, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (54:17):
And also I feel like metaphorically they kind of
conscience toward each other.

SPEAKER_01 (54:22):
So if you remember that scene where they're
fighting over the map, and thenyeah, could be could be in there
both like tons of well that wasadulted to that scene.

SPEAKER_00 (54:30):
Oh, was it?
Yeah, yeah, because I think thatthat that shows like that
they're wrestling obviously withthe affections of Morph, but
also with what they're sort ofgoing for, like the map or the
connection with with with Morphis what what what are they going
for?
The connection with the map.

SPEAKER_01 (54:45):
Who has a strong connection?

SPEAKER_00 (54:47):
Yeah, yeah, and that's who Morph would have gone
for because that's all he caresabout.
He's not a little being thatbenefits from gold at all.
But I think like Silver holdingon to that barge of gold with
his mechanical cyborg and thenreaching out to Jim with his
normal alien, like humanoid.
That's metaphorical too, becauseyou can look at it like it is a
cold and calculating choice togo for the gold, just like his

(55:08):
cyborg, and it is a warm andhuman and feeling-based choice
to go for Jim.
And obviously, he tries to doboth, and you can see him
looking both ways and obviouslypained by it.
He goes, What sort of fool am I?
And he goes and he he gets toJim.
But you know, even before that,I kind of knew that that was the
decision he's going to makebecause he had the opportunity

(55:29):
to get the the map multipletimes.
Like he had Jim lined up in hissights, he could have taken a
shot at him, he didn't even try.
And you can see him like lookaway and be like, ah, damn it.
Because so you knew, like, assoon as Jim was in trouble, he
was going to go for that.
So I think Silver all along knewthat that relationship was more
important than the gold, which Ithink is a really great

(55:50):
revelation for him becauseobviously he's lost so much, an
arm and a leg, but in his laterlife through meeting Jim, he
learned that the connection wasthe real prize over the over the
actual treasure.
So yeah, I think that likereward is never found in the
treasure that we chase.
I think it's more in the peoplethat we choose, and that was

(56:11):
exemplified in the end scene aswell.
But I like it because Jim startsto show more signs that he is
kind of repairing as well.
So he has reduced defensivebehaviors, he has those subtle
acts of trust where he will letsilver go.
You can see him also you couldsay healthier risk taking

(56:32):
because he does go and then tryto join the guard or whatever it
is.

SPEAKER_01 (56:35):
And you know, like a role like the Royal Space Navy.

SPEAKER_00 (56:40):
Yeah, yeah.
And you can see this in ki inkids too when you're sort of
trying to work with them, whenyou're starting to see that
repair occurring, they mightshow care in disguised ways.
So, like they might bring youlike something small, like you
could find a snack on your tableor something like that as a
teacher, or you know, they couldask you or call you a nickname
that you you're you're not usedto.

(57:00):
Like, for example, Jim calls atthe end, he's just like, see a
lady a scallywag or somethinglike that.
So he's showing that care in adisguised way, showing he's
opening up to that the fact ofthe relationship.
But also visually, I've seen alot of posts that show Jim at
the start of the movie and he'swearing like all black and a
really dark vest and coat, andhe's just like really forlorn
into himself, and he hasanimated bags under his eyes.

(57:22):
And then combine that with theending image where we see him
all in white in very pristinesort of outfits, his face looks
less forlorn, like he's he's gotthat sort of repair happening,
and he's letting himself be seenfor positive things, like he's
showing up more authentically inthe world, he's not showing any
sort of sadness, he's happilytaking part in events at the

(57:42):
Benbo Inn, where you can see himlike dancing around and enjoying
cake, and and he's also likebeing vulnerable in moments with
with Silver, like they both cry.
But interestingly, you seeSilver as well, he's just like,
Oh, I must have some grease inthis cyborg guy.
So you can still you'll see thathe's just like still too
masculine to cry, or all habitsdie hard, but you can see his
connection there with Jim isgrowing.
So these are two characters thatare transformed by each other.

(58:04):
I absolutely love that becauseI'm a character guy, and I think
that there is so much to learnfrom from these two characters,
but especially Silver.
Like, I feel like I relate tohim more as an older person now
than I did way back, becauseyeah, Jim was my guy when I was
watching the Muppets one, andthen now it's Silver, so funny

(58:25):
how things like that change.

SPEAKER_01 (58:27):
So I'm I'm still on the thought you you you feel
he's he was changed, man, andall the things I still am on the
side of he was always a pirate,he was always a bastard, and he
did uh eventually care for Jimin a way of like it was like a

(58:48):
son he never had, but more so totry and because he's always like
come with me, lad.
Um to reach his own means, yeah,like like for his own end, and
like why not have the treasureand have your little comfort pet
son with you as well.
Well, that's definitely what hewent for through the middle of

(59:09):
the movie, and then definitelyuntil he was like, Because like
even when um like if if I if Iwanted to be more convinced that
he genuinely had strong emotion,was always going to choose Jim,
when they're going to shoot theship down, I would have liked to
hit like more him to be thataccidental worry come out of him

(59:33):
and him be like, don't shoot,he's on the ship.
And then when they sort of likehis heart grew to sort of look
at him where he's like, He's gotthe map, we'll lose the map.
Like, I would probably be moreconvinced, but his shabbies is
like, don't shoot it, they'vegot the we'll lose the map.
And then that yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (59:48):
See, I took it that way initially I took it the
first way that you saidinitially, when you said it that
way.
I was kind of looking at Silver,going, Oh, he's saying that he
shouldn't shoot Jim's ship down,and he's using that line
afterwards to cover up the fact.
That he really just doesn't wantto shoot Jim because he had the
opportunity to shoot him beforethat and he and he didn't for
one.
But then also like at the endwhen they're they're coming up

(01:00:10):
with their escape plan, onething that Silver does then is
like he advocates for the adultsin the room to trust Jim and his
ingenuity to get them out of thecoral.
Yeah.
So I feel like he does have thatfaith in him to the point where
like, and there are definitelymoments I do agree where you do
wonder whether Silver'sallegiances lie with the gold or

(01:00:32):
with Jim.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:32):
I mean, isn't that isn't the point though?
That's the thing.
That's the point, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:36):
And I think for the audience, that's the dance you
do, and it's the exact samedance I did, honestly, with Jack
Sparrow when I watch Pirates ofthe Caribbean.
I was like, is this guy on myside or is he gonna betray it?
Like, and I think that's thebeauty and why I love pirate
media so much, is because it'sjust that you never know where
the human whether it's too farburied to come out or whether it

(01:00:57):
is like hiding under the surfaceto all this posturing and and
false masculinity.
But I think in this case, I liketo believe that Silver was an
advocate of the relationshipwith Jim from the start.
I feel like he was a good guythat and he he probably did
exactly what Jim did.
Like he he made these recklesschoices in order to fill
something like a hole that wasin him.
Like in the Muppets version, weknow that Silver's father also

(01:01:20):
died or or left.
So maybe he was also doing thatrisk-taking behavior in order to
fill that void.
And he always was that sort ofsensitive soul underneath.
So I like to see Silver in thatin that sort of light.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:32):
Well there was a possibility we could have sworn
that for the Treasure Planet 2.
Um because there was gonna be atwo.
Yeah, there was gonna be a two,and it was gonna show partially
um uh Silver's backstory andthen jump into the after

(01:01:53):
Treasure Planet, where Jim wasgoing to reunite with Silver to
take down Iron Beard, which I'mI'm assuming would be like the
Blackbeard equivalent for Yeah,the Edward Peach of Treasure
Teach version of Treasure Planetwho was going to be voiced by
William Defoe.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:09):
Oh, that would have been sick.
So it definitely wouldn't clashbecause obviously Michael
Wincott would be gone withScroob, so the voices got a very
similar voice.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:17):
I think from what I read, and Ironbeard already had
a history.
I think it was Silver and hisactual had a love is love
interest, and he sort of goedher and sort of left her behind
to go join the pirate crew ofIronbeard, and then after

(01:02:41):
several raids and that and howvicious and how cruel and how
much Ironbeard how cruel andvicious he was and how much he
skimmed everyone else on uhpayment except for himself, and
how much he took for himself andnot gave to the rest of the
crew.
Silver tried overthrowing him,and Ironbeard cut off his arm

(01:03:02):
and his leg.
And probably his eye as well.
Yeah.
Because Iron Beard's also acyborg, well, he was human and
then eventually became more andmore cyborg as well.
So he would have been moremachine than Silver was.
Yeah, yeah.
And then but he sort of hard hesort of made Silver become part
machine as well.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:22):
But one thing that is also a thing that movie goes
like movie makers do is theyposition two characters to be
the opposites of each other toshow the growth of one.
So if you're looking at Silvercompared with with Scroop, for
example, Scroop is obviously thepirate pirate who is extremely
aggressive, extremelythreatening, extremely like

(01:03:43):
masculine to the point where heis just really violent in his
sort of mannerisms, ruthless,yeah, fearsome as well, and he
has power due to that fearfactor that he does.
Whereas Silver is presenting asthat, and I feel like that's the
opposition that the audiencesort of sees through these two
characters.
Silver presents as that, butreally you see that underside to

(01:04:04):
him where he's got that kindheart and that gooey centre, and
he's got that love for morph.
Scroop, on the other hand,absolutely would never do that,
and he would only becausewhenever Scroop did it, like
remember when he said that we'velost Mr.
Arrow and you could see himalmost going to the captain in
crocodile tears or or lobstertears, and you're just like,

(01:04:24):
what a load of crap.
Like it's completely like that.
I never felt that way withSilver's interaction.
There was almost like a oh, isit or is it not?
But when you looked at Scroop,it was always this has an agenda
behind it.
He has a definite gold-basedagenda.
He's here for the money.
There is nothing that he caresabout more than that.
Because yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:49):
Well, if you look at Silver in other media too, like
take Black Sails for instance inthat.
He's very charming, he's goodwith his words, he's good at
storytelling and all that kindof jazz.
But he's he was never he wasnever really a pirate.
Like he was never really like avicious Star Wars sailing

(01:05:10):
expert.
Uh like a violent person.
So like if he needed to, hewould he would defend himself
and if he needed to a fight whenhe needed to, but he was he was
always more so using his wordsand using his ability to
persuade others to be on get onhis side.
And I think even in TreasurePlanet, he is the same.

(01:05:30):
Like he is he's a very good atmanipulating and using his words
to get what he wants.
So like convincing like the restof his crew that he hasn't gone
soft.
Yeah.
Using that by being all bravadoand saying how he'll cast
Scrooge out out into the thinglike he did Mr.
Arrow and like more threateningrather than that, even though he

(01:05:52):
does have the mechanical side toback it up.
Like you can see, and I thinkwith the if they had it on the
second one and you saw hisbackstory, you would have seen
how like he wasn't really likethat kind of a vicious pirate,
like Troop is like the the IronBeard character would have been,
and he would have been more likeyeah, every other sort of

(01:06:13):
iteration of Silver where he'smore charming rather than a
ruthless person.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:19):
I first before we move on from that, I just want
to shout out Luke Arnold, who'san Australian actor who does
play John Silver.
Very talented man.
Yeah, he he does play a reallygood part in Black Sales.
So if you haven't checked itout, go and check out Black
Sales if you like pirate stuffand give some love to Luke
Arnold.
Also a great author.
He's written some really good umurban fantasy books.
But yeah, with the John Silver,in the actual original novel, it

(01:06:44):
is always portrayed that he isthe one that ends Arrow or kills
Arrow in some sort of way.
And every version I've seen,whether it be the Muppets
version or Treasure Planet, hassteered away from that.
And I feel like they do thatintentionally because that would
divide the audience in terms ofwhether they think that Silver
was a good man or an evil man.

(01:07:05):
Like killing is a prettydefinitive because you could be
like, yeah, he cares for Jim,but he also killed Arrow.
So what are we I can't like him?
So I think that's a smart choicewhen you're talking about film
to from book adaptations.
I'm not sure how it played outin in Black Sales, but I do know
that that was that wasdefinitely a change that they've
made from here.

(01:07:26):
And it probably would have madehim seem more ruthless, but I
think it at the cost of thatwould have been the loss of the
relationship arc that he hadwith Jim and Silver and the
audience believing that too.
So all right.
Let's go to rate it brash.
Let's do that.
Alright.
So for me, I'm not beatingaround.
I gave it five out of five,which if you're a Phantom

(01:07:47):
Portals person, this is probablylike the seventh movie that I've
given five out of five.
So I want to thank you guys as acommunity for voting it in.
I hadn't seen it for a while.
I'm not sure, like, if I sawthis when I was a bit younger, I
may not have given it as much asI did.
But I love the combinedanimation style.
I love the relationship betweenJim and Silver.

(01:08:07):
Five out of five is what I gaveit, and I'm proud to say it.
Brash.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:11):
Four out of five.
No, sorry, sorry, four pointfive out of five.
Okay.
Because uh that 0.5 is purebecause I didn't like their
rushed ending of them justhaving a party and people have
kids.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:24):
Alright, so with a five out of five from me and a
four point five from Brash, thishas an average of four point
seven.
So this is second in our PhantomPortals honor board.
It is second after Forest Gump,and it has knocked Guardians of
the Galaxy Volume 3 down tothird place.
So with that in mind, like hardto believe it flopped initially,

(01:08:46):
but also there is definitely aresurging audience for this
movie.
I did also watch this with withRiver.
His favourite was Jim, and he'sgetting to that age now.
This is moving into mygratitudes, too, actually.
So we'll move into gratitude.
Yeah, grateful that River and Iare starting to watch movies
together, sharing something thatI I love with him, and he also
loves watching movies.

(01:09:09):
And, you know, he he also kindof humbles me to the point where
like I I feel like through mywork I've got all this expertise
in how to deal with children atvarious different developmental
ages, and I can help them inwhatever they're going through.
But like he has this really goodway of humbling me and making me
realize like, wait a minute,bro, you don't actually know

(01:09:31):
that much because every kid isdifferent, and obviously there
are still lots of things that Ihave to learn.
He helps me grow, he'sunashamedly himself all the
time.
He's so joyful, and you know,he's he's at that stage where he
was asking questions through thethrough the movie, which I know
is like annoying for people, buthe was asking all of the right

(01:09:52):
questions.
Like he he was saying, like, isJim's mum gonna go on the ship
too?
And I was like, probably not.
And then he at the end, like hesaid, Why isn't Silver staying
with Jim?
So I was like, Okay, like he'sactually getting this.
And I was like, How do I explainthis to a four-year-old?

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:08):
But if he had stayed, he'd have to go to
prison.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:11):
Yeah, well, I said that.
And he's just like, and then thenext question came, which was
what's prison?
I was like, okay, here we are.
So yeah, I'm I'm grateful for mymy son.
And I think that's that's kindof relevant for the episode that
we did, but also like the notjust the fact that I can watch
movies with him, but the factthat he challenges me every day
in a very good way.
He helps me grow, and I'm soproud to be his dad, and I'm so

(01:10:33):
glad that he's my son.
All right, that's been ourepisode, ladies and gentlemen,
boys and girls on TreasurePlanet.
Thank you so much for thatcommunity pick.
If you want to engage in thosecommunity picks, we've decided
to do more of those.
There is going to be one comingup for our Christmas episode.
We're going to let you decidewhich Christmas movie we do.
So go ahead and join ourInstagram, which is at
fandomportals.
We do them all on there.

(01:10:54):
A lot of the comments that weread out come from threads.
So definitely come and be a partof our community and and yeah,
join the fun.
Last year we did Red One.
It was Brash's first everepisode on, and we just picked
that one.
It wasn't a community one, andit's yeah, it was a good way to
kick off.
But we want your Christmasrecommendations.
That is definitely for sure.

(01:11:16):
So that would be greatlyappreciated if you came and
joined us on our shows.
Next week, however, we are goingto be looking at the final film
in our arc, which is FailureIsn't Final.
And it is another communitypick, another movie that
flopped.
It is Batman and Robin, the onewith George Clooney.
You guys picked this one outover another eight movies.

(01:11:38):
It was definitely the one thatcame out on top.
This one here technically didn'tflop, but it was definitely
under received and killed thefranchise.
So I think it definitely fits inour theme arc of value isn't
final.
That's me signing off.
Make sure you tune in for thatepisode and join us on socials
if you want to hear from us inbetween.
Keep learning, keep growing, andkeep loving fandoms and film.

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Treasure Planet (2002) Masculinity, Father-Son Relationships and the Impact of One True Connection | Failure Isn't Final

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Treasure Planet (2002) Masculinity, Father-Son Relationships and the Impact of One True Connection | Failure Isn't Final