July 13, 2024 • 49 mins
In this episode, I'm delighted to welcome bestselling author, Sarah Arthur.
Sarah's debut YA fantasy novel, Once A Queen has recently hit the shelves courtesy of Penguin Random House.
We chat all about writing a YA fantasy novel, creating characters, transitioning from writing non-fiction to fiction, creating a magic portal-based system, and building a fantasy world within our real world.
We also explore writing Young Adult fiction (YA) and how it's become its own genre that deals with issue-driven stories. Sarah shares some brilliant insights into how to connect with and reach a younger audience here.
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ONCE A QUEEN
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/707440/once-a-queen-by-sarah-arthur/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
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(00:23):
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Thank you very much for listening.
Enjoy the show. I'm thrilled to Welcome to the
Tool Shed best selling author Sarah Arthur.
(00:46):
So welcome to the show. Thanks so much, I'm glad to be
here. Oh, thank you for giving up your
time to join me especially we have a new book on the horizon
and it's your debut YA novel as well.
Once a queen. Yes.
Yeah, it's the. I understand it's the first in a
fantasy trilogy. It's going to be published by
(01:08):
Waterbrook, which is an imprint of Penguin Random House.
It's very, very exciting. Yeah, yeah.
So kind. Of I'm kind of pinching myself
because I feel like a dream for a long time, you know, since I
was little actually, to write fiction.
And after 12 non fiction books, it's kind of a big transition to
(01:28):
something different. But really, back to my first
love, Yeah. Amazing.
So we're going to talk all aboutthat today as well as writing YA
fantasy fiction more generally, which is becoming more and more
popular. We're also going to chat about
cross it over from non fiction to fiction.
I know it's we've, we've had quite a few questions in the
(01:49):
past about writing coming from that non fiction background and
and making a move because one ofyour best selling books isn't.
It is Walking with Frodo. It is a devotional journey
through Lord of the Rings. It sounds amazing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that goes back a long
way, as you can imagine, when. So I had been in working in
(02:10):
church settings here in the United States as a youth worker,
so working with students grades six through 12.
So that's, you know, those are all secondary, basically
secondary grades here. And having like my instincts as
it having been an English major were to talk about stories,
(02:30):
right? And just like dig into themes
and relate them to our faith andlooking at spiritual themes and
literature, which is just, you know, it's just what I do.
And so I would do small groups like where we would read The
Silver Chair by CS Lewis. And so when The Lord of the
Rings was in theaters, it was for me as a youth worker slash
(02:52):
former English major, it was like the perfect marriage of all
of my favorite things. And and I was like, did you know
Tolkien was a Catholic? And like in his letters, he says
this about, you know, like his faith is infused through all of
it, right? It's an act of worship for him.
You know, it's just fascinating stuff.
And I wanted my students to hearabout it, But when a publisher
(03:16):
picked up that idea, it was like, this is fantastic, right?
Like you, you can get to knock it out of the park at that
point. So super fun book and it did
really well. And that really launched my
writing career And and ever since, like most of my non
fiction books have been about the intersection of faith and
great stories, you know, poetry and and fiction of other authors
(03:40):
throughout the centuries. So yeah, awesome.
And you said you got into fiction before you started non
fiction. So tell us a bit about you, how
you started writing in those early days and and sort of what
challenges you you encountered? I mean like all the way back to
when I was six and wanted to hear like, how far back do we
(04:01):
want to go? Right.
It's I think for most people wholove stories and storytelling,
it starts when you're a small child and you're holding a book
in your hands, right? And you have an experience of
reading that happens to you the same way that the big storm of
snow is coming here in Michigan that's about to happen to us.
(04:24):
Like we remember some of those moments of an amazing story the
same way we remember a phone call about a tragedy or, you
know, something that happened inour our family history like it
happened to us. And I think that is the
beginning for me. And scribbling stories.
(04:49):
And as a kid, you're just doing reps and you think it's all fun
and games and it's wonderful, which it is.
But turns out it's also a craft that you need to learn.
Yeah. And so.
So one of my favorite quotes from Tolkien in his letters is
it is a curse having the epic temperament in an overcrowded
(05:10):
age devoted to snappy bits. Not much has changed.
Because he could never finish anything, right?
Like you're still Marillion and there's there's a million
beginnings to the history of Middle Earth or to like, I'm
going to tell the story from theelves side of things and the
from that side of things and Milky or like, I think I think
(05:35):
writing fiction is just a continuation of what is at the
soul of my formation. But I have had to learn how to
do it better. You know, that's I think the the
significant thing. Have you ever read a story you
wrote, you know, a while ago andyou're like, Oh no.
(05:58):
Yeah, Well, I, I like to be honest.
If I read over something that I wrote yesterday, I'd be like,
what's the other? I write this.
And I think that's a good thing.Sometimes it's a bit unnerving,
but if you're looking back at something and thinking I can do
better than that, then you're always, you've got that sort of
mindset of growth and improvement.
And I think that's always a goodthing.
You need that as a writer. I think the moments you you've
(06:21):
become consents is the moment you start getting worried.
Unless you've sold millions of books, of course.
But. Yeah, I mean, at that point,
like, what are you? You're like a genre writer and
you just have a formula and you just repeat it over and over and
over again. God forbid that I've ever what
I. You catch yourself now.
(06:44):
Yep. Yep.
Not a genre. You're talking about fantasy,
right? Which has its own kind of
formula. And there are expectations, as
is young adult literature. Same thing.
So, yeah, definitely. So tell us about Once a Queen,
how does it all lead to this? Because I understand you.
You started it a while ago. I did.
(07:06):
I mean, 20 years ago, I rememberhaving the initial idea for what
if there was a young American teenager who goes over to
England and meets her British grandmother for the first time,
and there's some mystery about why the estrangement right
(07:28):
between her mother and her grandmother.
Why? Why have they never met before?
And now she's at her grandmother's estate because of
course it's an estate. She's beginning to realize that
like, something's not right. Not only with her grandmother's
kind of overall mental health, maybe is a good way to put it,
(07:51):
but kind of magical realism kinds of things are happening.
And so she's beginning to question if the fairy tales she
heard as a child that she thinksshe has to give up as she
becomes a grown up, if there maybe actually true.
Yeah, her grandmother is maybe connected to those fairy tales
(08:12):
somehow. Oh, really cool.
Yeah. I've been reading SO and I have
been really enjoying exploring this mysterious grand house, all
the locked doors. And it sort of takes you back to
that, to being a kid and having back that curiosity and wanting
to know what is over there and what's behind that.
(08:34):
Yeah, well, and what is wrong with all these grown-ups?
Yeah. So and or, or maybe this is just
how grown-ups are, right? Like it's, it's, I think part of
growing up. And my character Eva is 14.
And so part of growing up for her is Bill is like, is this
just, is this just how grown-upsare or is something not right?
(08:57):
And she begins to kind of take that on herself.
And she also begins to internalize it, like, what am I
doing wrong that's making grandmother act this way, Right?
And I think a lot of kids do that.
They grown-ups don't often become vulnerable with children
to to clue them in on maybe someof the grief and loss that
(09:20):
shaped who those grown-ups are now.
Yeah, I think it's obvious. Yeah, I suppose it's from the
the adult perspective it's it's sort of sectionist.
You just don't want to expose them.
But from I know from miss out, from the kids perspective,
you're perfectly capable of understanding things and you
find that patronizing and belittle and that is frustrating
(09:42):
for a youngster. Yeah, absolutely.
I've, I've used this example before in other contexts in
stuff that I've written, but it's sort of, I have two sons.
I have a 13 year old and a 10 year old now.
And right now my 13 year old andmy 10 year old too, I can trust
them to pour milk from a gallon.Like here in the US, we do these
(10:04):
monster things of milk 'cause it's a whole lot.
But when they're little, like, like if they tried to pour that
milk into their cereal, I could just, I mean, like I knew what
was coming, right? They knew and the whole thing
would over, you know, just go everywhere.
And so there's this tension, even as a writer for young
adults of, like, what are they old enough to bear?
(10:28):
And at what point can they bear it?
And I know, you know, the adultsin Eva's life are trying to
protect her. Like you said, they're to give
her only as much as she can bear.
But at 14, she's like, come on. Bring it on, because you don't
really know. You're untested at that age,
aren't you? You don't really know.
(10:48):
I suppose that's. Unlock all those doors you want
to see. But what's behind the curtain?
Yeah. Yeah.
So it's it's focused on Eva and it does she you do a brilliant
job. Like I was connected with her
straight away. I carried on reading just to
find out what was going to happen next because you had that
connection with her. So how do you how did you
(11:10):
approach the creation of Eva andher developments as the story
went on? Oh, that's such a great
question. Well, I, so I think that I have
this weird ability to remember what it was like to be a
(11:31):
teenager. And I think some of that is
because for a long, long time, since college, I have worked
with teenagers. So I worked in religious
settings as a youth director with, you know, grades six
through 12 here in the US workedin various different ministry
settings. Like I worked at camps as a camp
(11:53):
counselor and that kind of thing.
And now I'm a, and I've volunteered also for a long,
long time. And now I am a substitute
teacher in an urban public, in urban public middle schools here
in the state capital of Michigan.
So the kids are, I'm, I'm dealing with kids all the time.
I have a 13 year old now. And a lot of it was just
(12:16):
remembering and observing. Yeah, and also, I mean Eva, the
the many more layers of like revisions I would do.
She would become richer and richer character.
And that's so much. And thanks, thanks to the people
who were beta readers that gave me feedback on her friends of
(12:37):
mine who have written books who helped me understand like basic
stuff about fiction that I thought I knew instinctively.
But like, once you get a handle on the craft of it, you're like,
oh, that's what the really good writers are doing, and I didn't
even notice. For instance, the emotional
valence of a chapter at the beginning needs to change by the
(13:00):
end. If she's anxious by the end, she
needs to feel better or be more anxious.
If at the beginning she feels awesome, her relationship with
her grandmother is fantastic, bythe end it's got to be like even
better, like you want to know, like is it going to be like this
to the rest of the book or in you sort of hit the bottom right
like it's. Peaks and troughs almost.
(13:22):
Yeah, and and that is that's notjust a like you hook the reader
kind of thing, but it's really adolescence in a nutshell.
Yeah, you're up and down hormones.
Oh, 100%, because you're still learning who you are as a person
with emotions and hormones aren't helping and it's all
you're everywhere, right? So that was actually really fun.
(13:44):
Yeah. Yeah, nice.
And there's really interesting magic aspect to it, isn't that
with the portals and stuff like that.
Can you tell us about that, how you came up with that side of
it? I'm addicted to portal fantasy
and it goes in and out of popularity in the fantasy world.
But for me, magical realism where where the the world's
(14:09):
beyond ours are breaking in on this one that is really
fascinating to me. So as you read the book, you'll
see elements of like The Secret Garden in there, right, which
itself has some magical realism with creation and how it speaks
to the characters and life kind of being always happening and
(14:31):
like, but I really, I wanted those portals to be very
evocative of stories that we grew up reading, very E Nesbit,
you know, Madeleine L'engel and A Wrinkle in Time, CS Lewis with
Narnia. I didn't want it to just be like
Tolkien where it all takes placein this the world, or at least a
(14:55):
reimagined like Europe prior to the remaking of the world.
Yeah. And the age of men, I really, I
really wanted it to be like, youcould literally be walking down
the street and the stop sign could open up and like all of a
sudden, like, what is that in there?
That's very cool. And climbing out of it kind of
(15:18):
feeling. So yeah.
No, that's that's awesome. And obviously it's Aya and it's
become so popular, hasn't it especially like romance?
It's probably it's always been around, isn't it, with like
Twilight and things, but it seems in, I mean, especially
(15:39):
speak to agents and and editors.That's all he really wants.
So, and it's I think it's because it's driven and fueled a
lot by this brilliant readership, which seems to be
thriving on places like TikTok and Instagram.
And you can make an author's career overnight, it seems.
(16:02):
Yeah. And so you're.
Buying right? It's like how?
Yeah. So how did you, how do you,
you've obviously drawn to it, how do you approach it?
If anyone out there wants to write YA, what would you say is
the most important things to keep in mind?
Well, probably the most important thing that I have
(16:24):
heard along the way from people who are in who who you know, are
talking about the publishing world and like reflecting
thoughtfully on it. Sarah Mackenzie from the Real
Loud revival here in the US is, is one that that that has she
coined the idea of YA as a genre.
Maybe she didn't coin it, but heard it from somebody.
But she's kind of taken that andrun with it.
(16:47):
And I think that's really insightful.
It's not just an age level, it'sa genre.
So it has certain expectations with it.
And here in the US it the expectations are it's issues
driven. So right now, if it's about,
well, excuse me, issues of like racism and gender or, you know,
(17:07):
climate change or you name it, it's, it's a hot topic that
young people are thinking and talking about.
Then it's that drives the, the narrative that drives the kinds
of books that are getting pickedup.
And, and you know, romance and sexuality is a big part of that.
And it's much more like edgy. The characters are doing much
(17:31):
more experimental things with stuff that's maybe not legal or
maybe not recommended. You know, which is a trope for
adolescents, right? Like the trope is that all
adolescents are experimenting with stuff they're not supposed
to be. When in my studies in seminary
about in Graduate School about adolescents, it's actually most
(17:58):
behaviors that adolescents engage in that are maybe
antisocial or at risk are actually behaviors invented by
grown-ups. So, So it I think it's a trope
and I think it's an expectation.That's maybe not necessarily the
case for all kids, but for for this story, the history of it.
(18:22):
And it's in my conversations with publishing houses about it,
at some points they'd be like, we can't tell if this is middle
grade, like younger, like ages 8to 12, like more habit ish, like
a primary source, like, or is itlike a what is this like?
Because it's not issues driven. It's a multi generational family
story with fantasy and fairy tale elements.
(18:47):
Because I am most interested in Eva and her grandmother like
that is my primary interest she had.
I mean, Frankie's in there as a good friend, hers who who's her
age and that relationship develops, but it not in Aya kind
of way. So for me, I think that the area
I write in is the most interesting to me with a main
(19:10):
character who's 14, she's a young teen.
It's not YA, but it's also not middle grade.
So, and I'm grateful to have a publisher who saw the potential
of that because that is kind of an empty space in between the
two genres, right? Where a 14 year old is not ready
(19:30):
necessarily to be experimenting with drugs and may never have
any interest with that. But they can't figure out why
the why the blank, they're adults around them are acting
this way. And this is what I can expect as
I turn my face to adulthood. So that's kind of the space I
inhabit. I like the relationship that you
explored as well between grandparents and grandchilds.
(19:51):
Like I had really close relationships with my
grandmothers and I I do, I love the the perspective of the older
person. Like again, it's not really new
feature. So it's really refreshing to see
that relationship, but it's not,I suppose it's like a sort of
bit like the mentor figure, isn't it?
(20:13):
But I think you did it in like areally refreshing way because
you've got that closer familiar relationship.
Yeah. So how did you find writing the
sort of dynamics between the twoof them?
Yeah, well, it there there's a author Q&A in the back of the
book where I give a little background on my own
(20:33):
relationship with my maternal grandmother, who died when I was
14. And, and realizing it over time
that she had had a lot of traumaas a young person and how that
affected her sense of security in a in an unsafe world
universe. Right.
Like they're like, like at any point you could be hit with
(20:55):
something traumatizing. And that really made it
difficult for her to trust and to be open and vulnerable.
But at the same time, she was wonderfully loving to me as a
child. And I remember her singing Frere
Jacques to me 'cause she had studied French and but that but
(21:18):
walking but but observing my ownmom's journey and taking care of
her as she was diagnosed with cancer and dying as a 14 year
old. It was, it was, it was really
powerful and interesting and sadand hard and, and you know, I, I
(21:43):
also like teenagers and young adults like this is when
grandparents are aging and this is when they can't, you know, we
start to lose them right And even.
Usually it's like your first experience of like significant
loss. Yeah, and that's real.
That's real. It doesn't matter.
(22:05):
You know that it's not. It doesn't matter.
You might not be super close to your grandparents, but your
parent is grieving. Right.
And that's. You.
So it's complicated, and it's a season in life when that's
becoming, like, real to you in ways that maybe it wasn't
before. Yeah.
And it's great that you get the the genre to explore these
(22:27):
themes with. And I know that's something that
you wanted to do in this book. Yeah.
So how how did you weave that into your story?
Well, yeah, I it it over 20 years, the story began to teach
me what it was about, right. I didn't set out to write a
(22:49):
story about a girl, a 14 year old, who was basically like
exploring the same kinds of dynamics in a relationship with
a grandparent like I, you know, like that I had experienced.
So that kind of wove itself in and I think that so, so five
(23:14):
years ago I was diagnosed with cancer.
I was diagnosed with breast cancer when my sons were four
and seven, which is super young.I mean, it was.
Suicide to me. And, and I, I really had a
moment where I was like, I've got to finish this book because
it's like the book of my heart. And if I don't it'll.
(23:38):
And so that's, I think that is really the moment when Eva's
relationship with her grandmother, like I understood
the stakes, right? Like it, it wasn't just a story
anymore. It was about a, a young person
potentially like their sense of what can be lost right in these
(24:03):
relationships. And and also recognizing that
like we are that we can't, we can't, we don't get to tell the
last chap like we, we don't get to invent the story of our lives
in the way that we would want them to go.
(24:25):
And nor can we manipulate people.
We can't tell other people's story.
Like I couldn't like manhandle my grandmother into being like,
you can trust people. You can love them.
Like you don't have to let go offaith or whatever, you know,
before you, like, you can reclaim all that before you die.
But what if they don't, right? Like how do we sit with people
(24:46):
in their pain and still love them?
And I think that that the poignant aspect of of what
people are telling me about the book, that's the season when
that began to be expressed in the story, 'cause we were living
and I'm, I'm as far as we know, cancer free now.
Oh. Amazing, great news.
(25:07):
Which is amazing. Yeah, congratulations.
Universe for good. Really blessed with great
healthcare in this specific circumstance, but it affects
more and more families, right? And there is, it does show up in
my book as well as battering diagnosis.
(25:31):
So not to not too many spoilers,but that was real for us.
Did you find the quite therapeutic right in the story
then? I haven't been through this, but
I do find right and read therapeutic sometimes, and
especially if I've got somethingthat's playing on my mind.
You, you could end up just starting a a random story, but
(25:53):
it's it's sort of you having a conversation with yourself about
what is troubling you. And do you ever find that aspect
quite helpful? I have.
I'm not sure I'd say it about this story so much because I
was. So for me, Eva was the focus.
Like I want. I didn't want my experience of a
(26:13):
diagnosis, my own diagnosis to Eclipse her journey.
So I think I was. And so I was maybe trying to
protect her a little bit, but also make it.
I didn't want her journey to be robbed of its uniqueness.
Like I wanted this to be Eva while like making it as
realistic as possible. When you get to the final, like
(26:36):
5th or 6th of the book, you'll you'll understand what I'm
talking about. But what did happen when I was
supposed to be writing that is Ihad the idea for another story.
It was a story for grown-ups where there was a woman who is
she shows up at the Cancer Center for her six months
(26:59):
checkup and sees a friend who ditched her when she was
diagnosed with cancer, who was just like praying for you but
never and realizes that that person has just gotten a
diagnosis. And so I was like, I had a lot
of rage, like when I was facing cancer, it was like, my response
(27:20):
to grief is to get just really ticked off.
And so that book was good therapeutic.
It's not. It's mostly just first chapters
right now, but I was preserving Eva grown up rage that my sons
would have to have this as one of their earliest memories,
(27:42):
right? Yeah.
Made me mad I just channelled itall into this other story.
Yeah. Oh, well, it comes out on the
30th of January and that's rightin the 30th of January, not far
away at all. Month.
Yeah, I know. Fuck day soon.
How did you find the process of getting it published?
(28:06):
And was that a tough one? A long one?
How's it? What was your experience of it
all? It was, there were moments of,
like, agony and moments of serendipity, which is what is
like basically publishing in a nutshell.
I think it's like you can do allthe right things and nothing
(28:27):
happens. And then you can just have a
random conversation at an, you know, with a random person and
all of a sudden the next steps in the future are wide open.
So, yeah, I, you know, I something I understood about the
transition from nonfiction to fiction is I needed an agent.
(28:49):
So I had done all of my own. I had pitches and everything for
nonfiction 'cause I was working with smaller publishers and
that's, that works. Fiction does not work that way.
Especially the bigger New York houses like Penguin Random
House, Herbert Collins, they agents are key.
(29:11):
And so after all those years of doing my own stuff, I had to get
an agent and that, that was really hard.
But then my current agent, this is crazy story it would take
forever to tell. So I'm just gonna say she read
my books for teenagers as a teenager, went off to school to
(29:35):
get into publishing, started to work for an agent, found out I
wanted an agent and was like, I would love to.
I didn't know you were writing fiction.
Let me look at your stuff and then signed SO.
Oh amazing, played a long game there.
Yeah, exactly. Like one of my friends was like,
it's like you custom designed anagent for yourself.
Oh yeah, growing your own agent.No story I could tell you would
(29:58):
be like replicable for anyone listening.
And you know, it's a good strategy though.
And then? The long game like.
Yeah, well, sometimes it might be quicker actually, because it
takes that long for agents to get back to you.
Yeah. And then my my editor is
somebody I knew from a previous publishing house when I was
doing non fiction. So again, the long game, right?
(30:19):
Like people don't always stay inthe roles that they're in, nor
with the same publisher. And so she ended up at this
publishing house, reached out when she found out an agent, she
knew I was writing this story. She really drafts of it and was
like, I want to look at what she's got.
So again, we want it all to happen right away.
(30:44):
I wanted fiction to happen rightaway.
But 20 years later, here is the dream right happening.
And all along the way, it's a story of opening my fists and
letting go of how I think this is supposed to happen and and
being in it for the long game. Yeah, I think that's what you
(31:04):
got to get used to. It's a marathon, isn't it?
Not aspirants. Yeah.
So we mentioned, you know, fiction.
It's it's a really. I was checking some of the books
out and obviously the Lord of the Rings ones were in my eye.
It was a big poster behind me asI.
See. Rohan, yes.
(31:25):
Anyone listening? I've got a big Rohan poster
behind me, but it's, yeah, it's,it's, it's tricky.
I know when I I used to be a lawyer and when I started
writing fiction, I found it really tough to to almost find
your voice because you've sort of been conditions or writing.
This was a rigid, very formal way and it was it took years, a
(31:47):
lot of practice, and I know thata lot of other writers who have
come from sort of professional background and the transit do
non more fiction writing. It even counted that as well.
So how did you did you encounterthat as well?
First and foremost, because you know you've written fiction
before you started non fiction. And if you did, how terrible.
(32:10):
But yes, And how did you overcome any challenges that you
encountered? I'm not even sure I have
overcome them, to be honest. They're they're in my face every
day because I'm writing book twoin the series now once in case
which is supposed to come out next year sometime.
So it's like I'm up against it every minute of every day.
(32:33):
But yeah, so it's that it's thatthe change of style is a really
big one. And I would say like, I'm, I
wasn't writing briefs. I was allowed to, you know,
there was a creative element to a lot of my nonfiction, but I
have a super strong first personessay voice that I've honed over
time, you know, over 20 years. And it's really good.
(32:56):
Like it's I'm really good at it and it comes really easily and I
feel really confident. Fiction is not that for me.
I feel like a total poser. I feel like there's so many
amazing authors who came before me.
Like why? I walk into a bookstore and I'm
like, OK, forget it. Like why?
(33:17):
The world does not need another book, much less from me.
I think that is the biggest change is that before with
nonfiction, I was like a trapezeartist who could just like,
effortlessly jump from one thingto another.
And like with fiction, I look down and I'm like, is there a
(33:39):
safety net? I can't see a safety kind.
Of. Thing will this hold?
Like, will they catch me? And I think there's a kind of
cruelty in the review world for fiction that there isn't
anything. Nonfiction.
That makes me really anxious andnervous.
Like you either get what I'm doing or I'm the worst author
(34:03):
you've ever read in your life. So it's like some.
People just don't get it. That's the thing.
That's why I'm in fiction. It's like this book wasn't for
me in fiction. It's like just burn the book
now, save the money, don't bother.
They're the ones I hate the mostis like, oh, come put this down.
(34:23):
Read it in one sitting. Three stars.
I was like, yeah, yeah. If you, if you read a book in
one go, you know what I mean? I think that's that's pretty
impressive. It should be more than three
stars, maybe more. Yeah, it's wild to me.
Or they'll be like, I loved thisbook so much.
It was so great. And they give it three stars and
you're like, do not maybe understand how this works.
(34:46):
You're not comparing it to like.I know well, there's something
we need to be aware of now like this is something that I've,
I've not really discussed on thepodcast, but I did chat about it
in an event recently and I see what you think about this
because you're going into book promo time.
So it's. Been book launch time for six
(35:06):
months. That's yeah.
It's so hard to write book two while I'm also yeah.
But this is something to be aware of and especially
something to pass on to any publishers.
If you work with certain book tour companies, I don't know, I
won't say any names, but just bebe careful.
What I've found now in this age of AI is that we've got a lot of
(35:31):
book tour companies making fake profiles and then just getting
rewrites of existing reviews andcharging writers, what, 100 plus
dollars for a book promotion andreview service And all you're
getting is fake Goodreads profiles with AI generated
(35:51):
reviews. So be careful.
I am. I'm going to reveal a lot more
about it, but it's it's on that we need to watch out for,
especially if you spend the money on it.
Yeah. Have you encountered anything
like that so far in your promotions or?
Yeah. I don't.
I don't know if it's the difference between a larger.
(36:15):
Traditional publishing house. You've got the network, haven't
you? A.
Mechanism for marketing and publicity.
But as an author you should not be paying for any of that that
comes with the agreement with the publishing house.
That is you are working togetheron those things.
You should not. There should not be add-ons for.
Those things. I've been, I've had lots of
(36:38):
people asking me those questionsbecause if they've self
published or if they've done a hybrid publishing kind of
situation, there are all these add-ons, right?
Like we'll get your stuff reviewed and blah, blah, blah
for X number of dollars. No, no, unless you hire a
publicist who has known track record and that's you know, you
(37:06):
know, that takes researching. That's you.
They don't come to you. Those people.
Those people don't come to you. You you find them and they
should be, you know, vetted and certified and.
Yeah, to be honest, I did use one of the publicist that I did
use was using AI and they did have like they look pretty legit
(37:27):
and stuff like that. But the were wasn't any sort of.
So like you've got like review sites like Trustpilot, there's
no independent reviews. So you're always taking that
stab in the dark. And that's my thing.
You've got a lot. It's really hard.
But I was at the same time, I was using it as a bit of an
experiment to see what was goingon with these sort of book tour
companies and PR agents and stuff.
(37:50):
Oh yeah. And.
And don't get me wrong, like the, the publishers are they,
they do a lot, but they don't doeverything like the author is
still expected to do a lot. I am, you know, it's really
unusual, unless you're like JohnGresham or something to have
book tours booked for you by your publisher.
(38:13):
Like I am also like, hi, I've, I've made relationships with
bookstores for 20 years. Like I can reach out to events
coordinators and be like, I'll be in your area.
Can I come to you or your library or whatever is going on?
And so some of it is figuring out your own bandwidth for what
you can and can't do. Like at a certain point I
(38:34):
realized, like I'm not a Blogger.
I don't I don't give away my words for free.
So no, I'm not going to do that.And so you have to figure out
like, what are you going to 0 inon?
What parts of the expectations from the publisher can you and
can't you do and the, and, and you should not be shelling out
(38:54):
your own dollars for stuff. You know, you really shouldn't
that that's that's a team effortwith the publishing company.
But they should be taking on thefinancial risk of those things.
And they really should have the outlets in the, the, the, the,
the access that you don't anyway, right?
(39:18):
So that's part of why you sign with them.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the structure.
Yeah, yeah. It's all built into what they
do. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm sorry.
That's that's really. Hard.
He was very interested. Yeah.
I researched what there's like aa database of books that were
used to train AI and one of themis near.
(39:40):
Oh, really? Yeah.
It's so gross and so awful and like, what can you do?
You know, the Writers Guild or Authors Guild of in the US is
working on some of that. Yeah, I know.
It scrapes all the websites. So my website was was involved
as well. It's like it is such sort of
complete violation. I know it you, you put your
(40:03):
stuff out, you put your stuff out there, but you don't consent
for to be using that way. It is massive copyright
infringement like so hopefully something will be done, but I
don't think anyone wants to. I know.
I don't think anyone knows how. Yeah, I am glad.
I will say I am glad that AI is smarter because my stuff was in
there. I'm just kidding.
(40:25):
I've elevated the level of conversation.
You've you've contributed to the.
Oh, it just feels gross all the way around.
I know it's, it doesn't seem to be slowing down as well.
It just seems to be getting moresophisticated, better
capabilities. Like my brother's a full time
YouTube. He came in to me last night and
said, Oh yeah, there's this new AII too.
(40:45):
Now I can make YouTube videos and oh lovely nice.
So that'll put me also there. But I work in digital marketing
as well. So writing copywriting as a as a
profession, that's taken a massive whack unless you're
doing like really technical highlevel sort of medical legal
(41:06):
stuff that you need like qualifications to understand the
content then. Yeah, and fair use law in the US
is so slippery. It's so not well defined.
And like, you know, there were moments where I would like,
hyperventilate and be like, are we going to get sued because
Frodo is in the title? And I'm like, no, no, no, no.
You can talk about a work of literature.
(41:27):
You really can. Like, you can.
I wasn't like doing fan fiction where I was like taking the idea
and making it mine. So.
But I still like periodically wake up in a cold sweat and be
like, no, no, we're pulling out.No more Frodo.
No, we're done. Yeah, it's understandable
though, because I'll tell you what, they they love a lawsuit.
(41:48):
The the token state they suit someone this recycling company
in in England called Lord of theBins.
It's so great, those poor people.
Why? Why?
Yeah. And it's, it's it's terrifying,
actually. But but something I think, you
(42:10):
know, if we think about the longgame, like we've talked about
already, I just, I just feel like it's really important for
me to have integrity in my own work and know that my work has
its own internal. It's not sacred, but it's, it
(42:32):
is, it's original to me. And it may have elements of all
of these other fantasy and fairytales in them.
I mean, you've as you're readingit, you're like, Oh, that's so E
Nesbitt or whatever. But the same when we read CS
Lewis, we're like, Oh, that's soHans Christian Andersen or even
that, you know, he's so E Nesbitt there.
(42:53):
Because we cannot escape from from the influence of these
authors on the landscape of our imagination of the way that we
understand how stories are told and that it's fun to put them in
conversation with each other andwith our contemporary age and
see what happens. Right.
Like without it becoming. It's part tribute and part like
(43:14):
ongoing conversation without, like without crossing lines
into, oh, that's clearly somebody else's character that
I'm taking. It's it's not, you know, so
like, how do we, you know, and when we're creating work that
outlasts us, I can kind of give or take AI, right?
(43:37):
Like this is, this is for me andmy kids, my own.
Yeah, right. Yeah, I think I don't feel like
it's ever going to replace humancreativity.
What I worry about is like I've,there's a famous bookmark I said
that I follow. He's a successful author as
(44:00):
well. And before Christmas he started
advertising this author program which was all centred around
using AI to help. Now I don't mind using, if
you're using it as like a promptor something like that, I, I
could draw the line and get an AI to write stuff for you.
And that is what he was promoting.
(44:21):
And ironically, he was. He said, Oh yeah, you can get it
to write entire scenes for you so that you can free up time to
do the thing that you love, which is writing.
What the hell? But the writing is what you
love. Like that's you.
Get any machine to do it for you.
(44:42):
What the hell? That's not writing.
It's so. Interesting.
Like, I wonder if like with the invention of like type, right,
If there were handwriting, yeah.That's not writing.
How can you? Allow that machine to do your
work for you. But the, but that's the, that's
the mechanics of it. It's the creative process that
(45:04):
has been short circuited. And that it'll be interesting to
see how that plays out because we are made to create things.
I mean, this is straight up Tolkien, right?
Like we are made in the image ofa maker.
And I'm saying that as a person of faith.
Not everybody would agree with that.
But you can't argue with the fact that the creative process
has a, has a kind of a mind of its own and a life.
(45:27):
Your characters are gonna do stuff that you did not intend.
And there's, there's kind of a life there that's hard to
explain. And it, it doesn't go away from
generation to generation, that creativity will always be there,
that desire to make things. And so it'll be interesting to
see, yeah, to see how it. Yeah.
(45:50):
I think the copyright issue likeyou mentioned before, that's
going to be a major one, becauseif you use like an AI generated
image for a book cover, you can't copyright that image.
And likewise if authors are starting to use AI, you even
just passages of the book, do they then surrender the whole
copyright? Is it all like you?
(46:13):
It's it's massively, massively uncertain.
And I would just stay clear justfrom like an ethical point of
view that you can't really call yourself a writer if you're
getting a machine to write for you unless you've got some kind
of impairments, which is totallyunderstandable.
But. Yeah, yeah.
Oh, gosh. Like, what would Tolkien say is
(46:34):
just like, just like an amazing man who invented languages while
he was in the trenches? One like no.
Like no. We'll have to make an AI model a
Tolkien and ask. Him.
Yeah, right there we go. In his actual voice, like in his
action, yeah. Oh, Sarah, it's been absolutely
(46:55):
wonderful chatting with you. I'm calling a lot of ground and
well. And I could see how you you
could totally break this into A2parter too, all about what we
talked about at the beginning and then we're wading into AI.
I'm sure it's not a conversationthat's over either.
I'll definitely hear. What you're.
I think I might make it a staplequestion this year because it is
such a big thing. Every interview I'm going to ask
(47:17):
what you think about AI because I'm doing a a Potter survey at
the minute as we go into this new year.
Just just to anyone who wants todo it, it could be a beginner
writer, it could be a writer well into the career, just to
see have they been affected by AI Like you say, you've been
affected because your book has been used as part of the
modelling. And it's just to get a bit of an
(47:41):
insight because I don't know, I've chat with a lot of writer
friends in the community and everyone just feels a bit
helpless. Yeah, and and then don't talk to
professors of of writing either,unless you want to go down an
entire like they are up against.They're up against like imagine
grading papers right now, like did this student?
(48:04):
Is this actually their work? And also wondering like, what's
the point? You know, when a Provost, this
literally was on a conversation with some friends of mine who
are in higher education, where they were like, yeah, I was at a
meeting recently where our Provost said, well, maybe with
AI in the mix, we won't have to teach writing anymore.
And the keynote speaker after that said the day we stop
(48:27):
teaching writing is the day I die.
It is scary, isn't it? Well, yeah, we'll see.
We'll see. So say, if anyone wants to find
out more about you, how what's the best place to look?
Where to where should we go? Yep, I've put everything at
saraharthur.com in as clean a way as possible.
(48:48):
You can get from there to even to like pre-order information
about the book and all the perksthat my publisher is offering.
And that's Sarah with an H. Lovely.
And once the Queen is out on the30th of January, check it out.
Link will be in the description.Sarah, thank you very much
again. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Lovely, so honoured to be with you.
Thank. You thank you everyone for
(49:10):
listening.
Thank you for listening to the Fantasy Risers Tool Shed.
If you'd like to join our writing community on Discord and
get access to fantasy writing classes and books on Patreon,
check the links in the description.
And if you don't want to miss any future episodes, be sure to
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quick rating on Spotify or iTunes and share this episode on
(00:23):
social media or with anyone who you think may be interested.
Thank you very much for listening.
Enjoy the show. I'm thrilled to Welcome to the
Tool Shed best selling author Sarah Arthur.
(00:46):
So welcome to the show. Thanks so much, I'm glad to be
here. Oh, thank you for giving up your
time to join me especially we have a new book on the horizon
and it's your debut YA novel as well.
Once a queen. Yes.
Yeah, it's the. I understand it's the first in a
fantasy trilogy. It's going to be published by
(01:08):
Waterbrook, which is an imprint of Penguin Random House.
It's very, very exciting. Yeah, yeah.
So kind. Of I'm kind of pinching myself
because I feel like a dream for a long time, you know, since I
was little actually, to write fiction.
And after 12 non fiction books, it's kind of a big transition to
(01:28):
something different. But really, back to my first
love, Yeah. Amazing.
So we're going to talk all aboutthat today as well as writing YA
fantasy fiction more generally, which is becoming more and more
popular. We're also going to chat about
cross it over from non fiction to fiction.
I know it's we've, we've had quite a few questions in the
(01:49):
past about writing coming from that non fiction background and
and making a move because one ofyour best selling books isn't.
It is Walking with Frodo. It is a devotional journey
through Lord of the Rings. It sounds amazing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that goes back a long
way, as you can imagine, when. So I had been in working in
(02:10):
church settings here in the United States as a youth worker,
so working with students grades six through 12.
So that's, you know, those are all secondary, basically
secondary grades here. And having like my instincts as
it having been an English major were to talk about stories,
(02:30):
right? And just like dig into themes
and relate them to our faith andlooking at spiritual themes and
literature, which is just, you know, it's just what I do.
And so I would do small groups like where we would read The
Silver Chair by CS Lewis. And so when The Lord of the
Rings was in theaters, it was for me as a youth worker slash
(02:52):
former English major, it was like the perfect marriage of all
of my favorite things. And and I was like, did you know
Tolkien was a Catholic? And like in his letters, he says
this about, you know, like his faith is infused through all of
it, right? It's an act of worship for him.
You know, it's just fascinating stuff.
And I wanted my students to hearabout it, But when a publisher
(03:16):
picked up that idea, it was like, this is fantastic, right?
Like you, you can get to knock it out of the park at that
point. So super fun book and it did
really well. And that really launched my
writing career And and ever since, like most of my non
fiction books have been about the intersection of faith and
great stories, you know, poetry and and fiction of other authors
(03:40):
throughout the centuries. So yeah, awesome.
And you said you got into fiction before you started non
fiction. So tell us a bit about you, how
you started writing in those early days and and sort of what
challenges you you encountered? I mean like all the way back to
when I was six and wanted to hear like, how far back do we
(04:01):
want to go? Right.
It's I think for most people wholove stories and storytelling,
it starts when you're a small child and you're holding a book
in your hands, right? And you have an experience of
reading that happens to you the same way that the big storm of
snow is coming here in Michigan that's about to happen to us.
(04:24):
Like we remember some of those moments of an amazing story the
same way we remember a phone call about a tragedy or, you
know, something that happened inour our family history like it
happened to us. And I think that is the
beginning for me. And scribbling stories.
(04:49):
And as a kid, you're just doing reps and you think it's all fun
and games and it's wonderful, which it is.
But turns out it's also a craft that you need to learn.
Yeah. And so.
So one of my favorite quotes from Tolkien in his letters is
it is a curse having the epic temperament in an overcrowded
(05:10):
age devoted to snappy bits. Not much has changed.
Because he could never finish anything, right?
Like you're still Marillion and there's there's a million
beginnings to the history of Middle Earth or to like, I'm
going to tell the story from theelves side of things and the
from that side of things and Milky or like, I think I think
(05:35):
writing fiction is just a continuation of what is at the
soul of my formation. But I have had to learn how to
do it better. You know, that's I think the the
significant thing. Have you ever read a story you
wrote, you know, a while ago andyou're like, Oh no.
(05:58):
Yeah, Well, I, I like to be honest.
If I read over something that I wrote yesterday, I'd be like,
what's the other? I write this.
And I think that's a good thing.Sometimes it's a bit unnerving,
but if you're looking back at something and thinking I can do
better than that, then you're always, you've got that sort of
mindset of growth and improvement.
And I think that's always a goodthing.
You need that as a writer. I think the moments you you've
(06:21):
become consents is the moment you start getting worried.
Unless you've sold millions of books, of course.
But. Yeah, I mean, at that point,
like, what are you? You're like a genre writer and
you just have a formula and you just repeat it over and over and
over again. God forbid that I've ever what
I. You catch yourself now.
(06:44):
Yep. Yep.
Not a genre. You're talking about fantasy,
right? Which has its own kind of
formula. And there are expectations, as
is young adult literature. Same thing.
So, yeah, definitely. So tell us about Once a Queen,
how does it all lead to this? Because I understand you.
You started it a while ago. I did.
(07:06):
I mean, 20 years ago, I rememberhaving the initial idea for what
if there was a young American teenager who goes over to
England and meets her British grandmother for the first time,
and there's some mystery about why the estrangement right
(07:28):
between her mother and her grandmother.
Why? Why have they never met before?
And now she's at her grandmother's estate because of
course it's an estate. She's beginning to realize that
like, something's not right. Not only with her grandmother's
kind of overall mental health, maybe is a good way to put it,
(07:51):
but kind of magical realism kinds of things are happening.
And so she's beginning to question if the fairy tales she
heard as a child that she thinksshe has to give up as she
becomes a grown up, if there maybe actually true.
Yeah, her grandmother is maybe connected to those fairy tales
(08:12):
somehow. Oh, really cool.
Yeah. I've been reading SO and I have
been really enjoying exploring this mysterious grand house, all
the locked doors. And it sort of takes you back to
that, to being a kid and having back that curiosity and wanting
to know what is over there and what's behind that.
(08:34):
Yeah, well, and what is wrong with all these grown-ups?
Yeah. So and or, or maybe this is just
how grown-ups are, right? Like it's, it's, I think part of
growing up. And my character Eva is 14.
And so part of growing up for her is Bill is like, is this
just, is this just how grown-upsare or is something not right?
(08:57):
And she begins to kind of take that on herself.
And she also begins to internalize it, like, what am I
doing wrong that's making grandmother act this way, Right?
And I think a lot of kids do that.
They grown-ups don't often become vulnerable with children
to to clue them in on maybe someof the grief and loss that
(09:20):
shaped who those grown-ups are now.
Yeah, I think it's obvious. Yeah, I suppose it's from the
the adult perspective it's it's sort of sectionist.
You just don't want to expose them.
But from I know from miss out, from the kids perspective,
you're perfectly capable of understanding things and you
find that patronizing and belittle and that is frustrating
(09:42):
for a youngster. Yeah, absolutely.
I've, I've used this example before in other contexts in
stuff that I've written, but it's sort of, I have two sons.
I have a 13 year old and a 10 year old now.
And right now my 13 year old andmy 10 year old too, I can trust
them to pour milk from a gallon.Like here in the US, we do these
(10:04):
monster things of milk 'cause it's a whole lot.
But when they're little, like, like if they tried to pour that
milk into their cereal, I could just, I mean, like I knew what
was coming, right? They knew and the whole thing
would over, you know, just go everywhere.
And so there's this tension, even as a writer for young
adults of, like, what are they old enough to bear?
(10:28):
And at what point can they bear it?
And I know, you know, the adultsin Eva's life are trying to
protect her. Like you said, they're to give
her only as much as she can bear.
But at 14, she's like, come on. Bring it on, because you don't
really know. You're untested at that age,
aren't you? You don't really know.
(10:48):
I suppose that's. Unlock all those doors you want
to see. But what's behind the curtain?
Yeah. Yeah.
So it's it's focused on Eva and it does she you do a brilliant
job. Like I was connected with her
straight away. I carried on reading just to
find out what was going to happen next because you had that
connection with her. So how do you how did you
(11:10):
approach the creation of Eva andher developments as the story
went on? Oh, that's such a great
question. Well, I, so I think that I have
this weird ability to remember what it was like to be a
(11:31):
teenager. And I think some of that is
because for a long, long time, since college, I have worked
with teenagers. So I worked in religious
settings as a youth director with, you know, grades six
through 12 here in the US workedin various different ministry
settings. Like I worked at camps as a camp
(11:53):
counselor and that kind of thing.
And now I'm a, and I've volunteered also for a long,
long time. And now I am a substitute
teacher in an urban public, in urban public middle schools here
in the state capital of Michigan.
So the kids are, I'm, I'm dealing with kids all the time.
I have a 13 year old now. And a lot of it was just
(12:16):
remembering and observing. Yeah, and also, I mean Eva, the
the many more layers of like revisions I would do.
She would become richer and richer character.
And that's so much. And thanks, thanks to the people
who were beta readers that gave me feedback on her friends of
(12:37):
mine who have written books who helped me understand like basic
stuff about fiction that I thought I knew instinctively.
But like, once you get a handle on the craft of it, you're like,
oh, that's what the really good writers are doing, and I didn't
even notice. For instance, the emotional
valence of a chapter at the beginning needs to change by the
(13:00):
end. If she's anxious by the end, she
needs to feel better or be more anxious.
If at the beginning she feels awesome, her relationship with
her grandmother is fantastic, bythe end it's got to be like even
better, like you want to know, like is it going to be like this
to the rest of the book or in you sort of hit the bottom right
like it's. Peaks and troughs almost.
(13:22):
Yeah, and and that is that's notjust a like you hook the reader
kind of thing, but it's really adolescence in a nutshell.
Yeah, you're up and down hormones.
Oh, 100%, because you're still learning who you are as a person
with emotions and hormones aren't helping and it's all
you're everywhere, right? So that was actually really fun.
(13:44):
Yeah. Yeah, nice.
And there's really interesting magic aspect to it, isn't that
with the portals and stuff like that.
Can you tell us about that, how you came up with that side of
it? I'm addicted to portal fantasy
and it goes in and out of popularity in the fantasy world.
But for me, magical realism where where the the world's
(14:09):
beyond ours are breaking in on this one that is really
fascinating to me. So as you read the book, you'll
see elements of like The Secret Garden in there, right, which
itself has some magical realism with creation and how it speaks
to the characters and life kind of being always happening and
(14:31):
like, but I really, I wanted those portals to be very
evocative of stories that we grew up reading, very E Nesbit,
you know, Madeleine L'engel and A Wrinkle in Time, CS Lewis with
Narnia. I didn't want it to just be like
Tolkien where it all takes placein this the world, or at least a
(14:55):
reimagined like Europe prior to the remaking of the world.
Yeah. And the age of men, I really, I
really wanted it to be like, youcould literally be walking down
the street and the stop sign could open up and like all of a
sudden, like, what is that in there?
That's very cool. And climbing out of it kind of
(15:18):
feeling. So yeah.
No, that's that's awesome. And obviously it's Aya and it's
become so popular, hasn't it especially like romance?
It's probably it's always been around, isn't it, with like
Twilight and things, but it seems in, I mean, especially
(15:39):
speak to agents and and editors.That's all he really wants.
So, and it's I think it's because it's driven and fueled a
lot by this brilliant readership, which seems to be
thriving on places like TikTok and Instagram.
And you can make an author's career overnight, it seems.
(16:02):
Yeah. And so you're.
Buying right? It's like how?
Yeah. So how did you, how do you,
you've obviously drawn to it, how do you approach it?
If anyone out there wants to write YA, what would you say is
the most important things to keep in mind?
Well, probably the most important thing that I have
(16:24):
heard along the way from people who are in who who you know, are
talking about the publishing world and like reflecting
thoughtfully on it. Sarah Mackenzie from the Real
Loud revival here in the US is, is one that that that has she
coined the idea of YA as a genre.
Maybe she didn't coin it, but heard it from somebody.
But she's kind of taken that andrun with it.
(16:47):
And I think that's really insightful.
It's not just an age level, it'sa genre.
So it has certain expectations with it.
And here in the US it the expectations are it's issues
driven. So right now, if it's about,
well, excuse me, issues of like racism and gender or, you know,
(17:07):
climate change or you name it, it's, it's a hot topic that
young people are thinking and talking about.
Then it's that drives the, the narrative that drives the kinds
of books that are getting pickedup.
And, and you know, romance and sexuality is a big part of that.
And it's much more like edgy. The characters are doing much
(17:31):
more experimental things with stuff that's maybe not legal or
maybe not recommended. You know, which is a trope for
adolescents, right? Like the trope is that all
adolescents are experimenting with stuff they're not supposed
to be. When in my studies in seminary
about in Graduate School about adolescents, it's actually most
(17:58):
behaviors that adolescents engage in that are maybe
antisocial or at risk are actually behaviors invented by
grown-ups. So, So it I think it's a trope
and I think it's an expectation.That's maybe not necessarily the
case for all kids, but for for this story, the history of it.
(18:22):
And it's in my conversations with publishing houses about it,
at some points they'd be like, we can't tell if this is middle
grade, like younger, like ages 8to 12, like more habit ish, like
a primary source, like, or is itlike a what is this like?
Because it's not issues driven. It's a multi generational family
story with fantasy and fairy tale elements.
(18:47):
Because I am most interested in Eva and her grandmother like
that is my primary interest she had.
I mean, Frankie's in there as a good friend, hers who who's her
age and that relationship develops, but it not in Aya kind
of way. So for me, I think that the area
I write in is the most interesting to me with a main
(19:10):
character who's 14, she's a young teen.
It's not YA, but it's also not middle grade.
So, and I'm grateful to have a publisher who saw the potential
of that because that is kind of an empty space in between the
two genres, right? Where a 14 year old is not ready
(19:30):
necessarily to be experimenting with drugs and may never have
any interest with that. But they can't figure out why
the why the blank, they're adults around them are acting
this way. And this is what I can expect as
I turn my face to adulthood. So that's kind of the space I
inhabit. I like the relationship that you
explored as well between grandparents and grandchilds.
(19:51):
Like I had really close relationships with my
grandmothers and I I do, I love the the perspective of the older
person. Like again, it's not really new
feature. So it's really refreshing to see
that relationship, but it's not,I suppose it's like a sort of
bit like the mentor figure, isn't it?
(20:13):
But I think you did it in like areally refreshing way because
you've got that closer familiar relationship.
Yeah. So how did you find writing the
sort of dynamics between the twoof them?
Yeah, well, it there there's a author Q&A in the back of the
book where I give a little background on my own
(20:33):
relationship with my maternal grandmother, who died when I was
14. And, and realizing it over time
that she had had a lot of traumaas a young person and how that
affected her sense of security in a in an unsafe world
universe. Right.
Like they're like, like at any point you could be hit with
(20:55):
something traumatizing. And that really made it
difficult for her to trust and to be open and vulnerable.
But at the same time, she was wonderfully loving to me as a
child. And I remember her singing Frere
Jacques to me 'cause she had studied French and but that but
(21:18):
walking but but observing my ownmom's journey and taking care of
her as she was diagnosed with cancer and dying as a 14 year
old. It was, it was, it was really
powerful and interesting and sadand hard and, and you know, I, I
(21:43):
also like teenagers and young adults like this is when
grandparents are aging and this is when they can't, you know, we
start to lose them right And even.
Usually it's like your first experience of like significant
loss. Yeah, and that's real.
That's real. It doesn't matter.
(22:05):
You know that it's not. It doesn't matter.
You might not be super close to your grandparents, but your
parent is grieving. Right.
And that's. You.
So it's complicated, and it's a season in life when that's
becoming, like, real to you in ways that maybe it wasn't
before. Yeah.
And it's great that you get the the genre to explore these
(22:27):
themes with. And I know that's something that
you wanted to do in this book. Yeah.
So how how did you weave that into your story?
Well, yeah, I it it over 20 years, the story began to teach
me what it was about, right. I didn't set out to write a
(22:49):
story about a girl, a 14 year old, who was basically like
exploring the same kinds of dynamics in a relationship with
a grandparent like I, you know, like that I had experienced.
So that kind of wove itself in and I think that so, so five
(23:14):
years ago I was diagnosed with cancer.
I was diagnosed with breast cancer when my sons were four
and seven, which is super young.I mean, it was.
Suicide to me. And, and I, I really had a
moment where I was like, I've got to finish this book because
it's like the book of my heart. And if I don't it'll.
(23:38):
And so that's, I think that is really the moment when Eva's
relationship with her grandmother, like I understood
the stakes, right? Like it, it wasn't just a story
anymore. It was about a, a young person
potentially like their sense of what can be lost right in these
(24:03):
relationships. And and also recognizing that
like we are that we can't, we can't, we don't get to tell the
last chap like we, we don't get to invent the story of our lives
in the way that we would want them to go.
(24:25):
And nor can we manipulate people.
We can't tell other people's story.
Like I couldn't like manhandle my grandmother into being like,
you can trust people. You can love them.
Like you don't have to let go offaith or whatever, you know,
before you, like, you can reclaim all that before you die.
But what if they don't, right? Like how do we sit with people
(24:46):
in their pain and still love them?
And I think that that the poignant aspect of of what
people are telling me about the book, that's the season when
that began to be expressed in the story, 'cause we were living
and I'm, I'm as far as we know, cancer free now.
Oh. Amazing, great news.
(25:07):
Which is amazing. Yeah, congratulations.
Universe for good. Really blessed with great
healthcare in this specific circumstance, but it affects
more and more families, right? And there is, it does show up in
my book as well as battering diagnosis.
(25:31):
So not to not too many spoilers,but that was real for us.
Did you find the quite therapeutic right in the story
then? I haven't been through this, but
I do find right and read therapeutic sometimes, and
especially if I've got somethingthat's playing on my mind.
You, you could end up just starting a a random story, but
(25:53):
it's it's sort of you having a conversation with yourself about
what is troubling you. And do you ever find that aspect
quite helpful? I have.
I'm not sure I'd say it about this story so much because I
was. So for me, Eva was the focus.
Like I want. I didn't want my experience of a
(26:13):
diagnosis, my own diagnosis to Eclipse her journey.
So I think I was. And so I was maybe trying to
protect her a little bit, but also make it.
I didn't want her journey to be robbed of its uniqueness.
Like I wanted this to be Eva while like making it as
realistic as possible. When you get to the final, like
(26:36):
5th or 6th of the book, you'll you'll understand what I'm
talking about. But what did happen when I was
supposed to be writing that is Ihad the idea for another story.
It was a story for grown-ups where there was a woman who is
she shows up at the Cancer Center for her six months
(26:59):
checkup and sees a friend who ditched her when she was
diagnosed with cancer, who was just like praying for you but
never and realizes that that person has just gotten a
diagnosis. And so I was like, I had a lot
of rage, like when I was facing cancer, it was like, my response
(27:20):
to grief is to get just really ticked off.
And so that book was good therapeutic.
It's not. It's mostly just first chapters
right now, but I was preserving Eva grown up rage that my sons
would have to have this as one of their earliest memories,
(27:42):
right? Yeah.
Made me mad I just channelled itall into this other story.
Yeah. Oh, well, it comes out on the
30th of January and that's rightin the 30th of January, not far
away at all. Month.
Yeah, I know. Fuck day soon.
How did you find the process of getting it published?
(28:06):
And was that a tough one? A long one?
How's it? What was your experience of it
all? It was, there were moments of,
like, agony and moments of serendipity, which is what is
like basically publishing in a nutshell.
I think it's like you can do allthe right things and nothing
(28:27):
happens. And then you can just have a
random conversation at an, you know, with a random person and
all of a sudden the next steps in the future are wide open.
So, yeah, I, you know, I something I understood about the
transition from nonfiction to fiction is I needed an agent.
(28:49):
So I had done all of my own. I had pitches and everything for
nonfiction 'cause I was working with smaller publishers and
that's, that works. Fiction does not work that way.
Especially the bigger New York houses like Penguin Random
House, Herbert Collins, they agents are key.
(29:11):
And so after all those years of doing my own stuff, I had to get
an agent and that, that was really hard.
But then my current agent, this is crazy story it would take
forever to tell. So I'm just gonna say she read
my books for teenagers as a teenager, went off to school to
(29:35):
get into publishing, started to work for an agent, found out I
wanted an agent and was like, I would love to.
I didn't know you were writing fiction.
Let me look at your stuff and then signed SO.
Oh amazing, played a long game there.
Yeah, exactly. Like one of my friends was like,
it's like you custom designed anagent for yourself.
Oh yeah, growing your own agent.No story I could tell you would
(29:58):
be like replicable for anyone listening.
And you know, it's a good strategy though.
And then? The long game like.
Yeah, well, sometimes it might be quicker actually, because it
takes that long for agents to get back to you.
Yeah. And then my my editor is
somebody I knew from a previous publishing house when I was
doing non fiction. So again, the long game, right?
(30:19):
Like people don't always stay inthe roles that they're in, nor
with the same publisher. And so she ended up at this
publishing house, reached out when she found out an agent, she
knew I was writing this story. She really drafts of it and was
like, I want to look at what she's got.
So again, we want it all to happen right away.
(30:44):
I wanted fiction to happen rightaway.
But 20 years later, here is the dream right happening.
And all along the way, it's a story of opening my fists and
letting go of how I think this is supposed to happen and and
being in it for the long game. Yeah, I think that's what you
(31:04):
got to get used to. It's a marathon, isn't it?
Not aspirants. Yeah.
So we mentioned, you know, fiction.
It's it's a really. I was checking some of the books
out and obviously the Lord of the Rings ones were in my eye.
It was a big poster behind me asI.
See. Rohan, yes.
(31:25):
Anyone listening? I've got a big Rohan poster
behind me, but it's, yeah, it's,it's, it's tricky.
I know when I I used to be a lawyer and when I started
writing fiction, I found it really tough to to almost find
your voice because you've sort of been conditions or writing.
This was a rigid, very formal way and it was it took years, a
(31:47):
lot of practice, and I know thata lot of other writers who have
come from sort of professional background and the transit do
non more fiction writing. It even counted that as well.
So how did you did you encounterthat as well?
First and foremost, because you know you've written fiction
before you started non fiction. And if you did, how terrible.
(32:10):
But yes, And how did you overcome any challenges that you
encountered? I'm not even sure I have
overcome them, to be honest. They're they're in my face every
day because I'm writing book twoin the series now once in case
which is supposed to come out next year sometime.
So it's like I'm up against it every minute of every day.
(32:33):
But yeah, so it's that it's thatthe change of style is a really
big one. And I would say like, I'm, I
wasn't writing briefs. I was allowed to, you know,
there was a creative element to a lot of my nonfiction, but I
have a super strong first personessay voice that I've honed over
time, you know, over 20 years. And it's really good.
(32:56):
Like it's I'm really good at it and it comes really easily and I
feel really confident. Fiction is not that for me.
I feel like a total poser. I feel like there's so many
amazing authors who came before me.
Like why? I walk into a bookstore and I'm
like, OK, forget it. Like why?
(33:17):
The world does not need another book, much less from me.
I think that is the biggest change is that before with
nonfiction, I was like a trapezeartist who could just like,
effortlessly jump from one thingto another.
And like with fiction, I look down and I'm like, is there a
(33:39):
safety net? I can't see a safety kind.
Of. Thing will this hold?
Like, will they catch me? And I think there's a kind of
cruelty in the review world for fiction that there isn't
anything. Nonfiction.
That makes me really anxious andnervous.
Like you either get what I'm doing or I'm the worst author
(34:03):
you've ever read in your life. So it's like some.
People just don't get it. That's the thing.
That's why I'm in fiction. It's like this book wasn't for
me in fiction. It's like just burn the book
now, save the money, don't bother.
They're the ones I hate the mostis like, oh, come put this down.
(34:23):
Read it in one sitting. Three stars.
I was like, yeah, yeah. If you, if you read a book in
one go, you know what I mean? I think that's that's pretty
impressive. It should be more than three
stars, maybe more. Yeah, it's wild to me.
Or they'll be like, I loved thisbook so much.
It was so great. And they give it three stars and
you're like, do not maybe understand how this works.
(34:46):
You're not comparing it to like.I know well, there's something
we need to be aware of now like this is something that I've,
I've not really discussed on thepodcast, but I did chat about it
in an event recently and I see what you think about this
because you're going into book promo time.
So it's. Been book launch time for six
(35:06):
months. That's yeah.
It's so hard to write book two while I'm also yeah.
But this is something to be aware of and especially
something to pass on to any publishers.
If you work with certain book tour companies, I don't know, I
won't say any names, but just bebe careful.
What I've found now in this age of AI is that we've got a lot of
(35:31):
book tour companies making fake profiles and then just getting
rewrites of existing reviews andcharging writers, what, 100 plus
dollars for a book promotion andreview service And all you're
getting is fake Goodreads profiles with AI generated
(35:51):
reviews. So be careful.
I am. I'm going to reveal a lot more
about it, but it's it's on that we need to watch out for,
especially if you spend the money on it.
Yeah. Have you encountered anything
like that so far in your promotions or?
Yeah. I don't.
I don't know if it's the difference between a larger.
(36:15):
Traditional publishing house. You've got the network, haven't
you? A.
Mechanism for marketing and publicity.
But as an author you should not be paying for any of that that
comes with the agreement with the publishing house.
That is you are working togetheron those things.
You should not. There should not be add-ons for.
Those things. I've been, I've had lots of
(36:38):
people asking me those questionsbecause if they've self
published or if they've done a hybrid publishing kind of
situation, there are all these add-ons, right?
Like we'll get your stuff reviewed and blah, blah, blah
for X number of dollars. No, no, unless you hire a
publicist who has known track record and that's you know, you
(37:06):
know, that takes researching. That's you.
They don't come to you. Those people.
Those people don't come to you. You you find them and they
should be, you know, vetted and certified and.
Yeah, to be honest, I did use one of the publicist that I did
use was using AI and they did have like they look pretty legit
(37:27):
and stuff like that. But the were wasn't any sort of.
So like you've got like review sites like Trustpilot, there's
no independent reviews. So you're always taking that
stab in the dark. And that's my thing.
You've got a lot. It's really hard.
But I was at the same time, I was using it as a bit of an
experiment to see what was goingon with these sort of book tour
companies and PR agents and stuff.
(37:50):
Oh yeah. And.
And don't get me wrong, like the, the publishers are they,
they do a lot, but they don't doeverything like the author is
still expected to do a lot. I am, you know, it's really
unusual, unless you're like JohnGresham or something to have
book tours booked for you by your publisher.
(38:13):
Like I am also like, hi, I've, I've made relationships with
bookstores for 20 years. Like I can reach out to events
coordinators and be like, I'll be in your area.
Can I come to you or your library or whatever is going on?
And so some of it is figuring out your own bandwidth for what
you can and can't do. Like at a certain point I
(38:34):
realized, like I'm not a Blogger.
I don't I don't give away my words for free.
So no, I'm not going to do that.And so you have to figure out
like, what are you going to 0 inon?
What parts of the expectations from the publisher can you and
can't you do and the, and, and you should not be shelling out
(38:54):
your own dollars for stuff. You know, you really shouldn't
that that's that's a team effortwith the publishing company.
But they should be taking on thefinancial risk of those things.
And they really should have the outlets in the, the, the, the,
the access that you don't anyway, right?
(39:18):
So that's part of why you sign with them.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the structure.
Yeah, yeah. It's all built into what they
do. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm sorry.
That's that's really. Hard.
He was very interested. Yeah.
I researched what there's like aa database of books that were
used to train AI and one of themis near.
(39:40):
Oh, really? Yeah.
It's so gross and so awful and like, what can you do?
You know, the Writers Guild or Authors Guild of in the US is
working on some of that. Yeah, I know.
It scrapes all the websites. So my website was was involved
as well. It's like it is such sort of
complete violation. I know it you, you put your
(40:03):
stuff out, you put your stuff out there, but you don't consent
for to be using that way. It is massive copyright
infringement like so hopefully something will be done, but I
don't think anyone wants to. I know.
I don't think anyone knows how. Yeah, I am glad.
I will say I am glad that AI is smarter because my stuff was in
there. I'm just kidding.
(40:25):
I've elevated the level of conversation.
You've you've contributed to the.
Oh, it just feels gross all the way around.
I know it's, it doesn't seem to be slowing down as well.
It just seems to be getting moresophisticated, better
capabilities. Like my brother's a full time
YouTube. He came in to me last night and
said, Oh yeah, there's this new AII too.
(40:45):
Now I can make YouTube videos and oh lovely nice.
So that'll put me also there. But I work in digital marketing
as well. So writing copywriting as a as a
profession, that's taken a massive whack unless you're
doing like really technical highlevel sort of medical legal
(41:06):
stuff that you need like qualifications to understand the
content then. Yeah, and fair use law in the US
is so slippery. It's so not well defined.
And like, you know, there were moments where I would like,
hyperventilate and be like, are we going to get sued because
Frodo is in the title? And I'm like, no, no, no, no.
You can talk about a work of literature.
(41:27):
You really can. Like, you can.
I wasn't like doing fan fiction where I was like taking the idea
and making it mine. So.
But I still like periodically wake up in a cold sweat and be
like, no, no, we're pulling out.No more Frodo.
No, we're done. Yeah, it's understandable
though, because I'll tell you what, they they love a lawsuit.
(41:48):
The the token state they suit someone this recycling company
in in England called Lord of theBins.
It's so great, those poor people.
Why? Why?
Yeah. And it's, it's it's terrifying,
actually. But but something I think, you
(42:10):
know, if we think about the longgame, like we've talked about
already, I just, I just feel like it's really important for
me to have integrity in my own work and know that my work has
its own internal. It's not sacred, but it's, it
(42:32):
is, it's original to me. And it may have elements of all
of these other fantasy and fairytales in them.
I mean, you've as you're readingit, you're like, Oh, that's so E
Nesbitt or whatever. But the same when we read CS
Lewis, we're like, Oh, that's soHans Christian Andersen or even
that, you know, he's so E Nesbitt there.
(42:53):
Because we cannot escape from from the influence of these
authors on the landscape of our imagination of the way that we
understand how stories are told and that it's fun to put them in
conversation with each other andwith our contemporary age and
see what happens. Right.
Like without it becoming. It's part tribute and part like
(43:14):
ongoing conversation without, like without crossing lines
into, oh, that's clearly somebody else's character that
I'm taking. It's it's not, you know, so
like, how do we, you know, and when we're creating work that
outlasts us, I can kind of give or take AI, right?
(43:37):
Like this is, this is for me andmy kids, my own.
Yeah, right. Yeah, I think I don't feel like
it's ever going to replace humancreativity.
What I worry about is like I've,there's a famous bookmark I said
that I follow. He's a successful author as
(44:00):
well. And before Christmas he started
advertising this author program which was all centred around
using AI to help. Now I don't mind using, if
you're using it as like a promptor something like that, I, I
could draw the line and get an AI to write stuff for you.
And that is what he was promoting.
(44:21):
And ironically, he was. He said, Oh yeah, you can get it
to write entire scenes for you so that you can free up time to
do the thing that you love, which is writing.
What the hell? But the writing is what you
love. Like that's you.
Get any machine to do it for you.
(44:42):
What the hell? That's not writing.
It's so. Interesting.
Like, I wonder if like with the invention of like type, right,
If there were handwriting, yeah.That's not writing.
How can you? Allow that machine to do your
work for you. But the, but that's the, that's
the mechanics of it. It's the creative process that
(45:04):
has been short circuited. And that it'll be interesting to
see how that plays out because we are made to create things.
I mean, this is straight up Tolkien, right?
Like we are made in the image ofa maker.
And I'm saying that as a person of faith.
Not everybody would agree with that.
But you can't argue with the fact that the creative process
has a, has a kind of a mind of its own and a life.
(45:27):
Your characters are gonna do stuff that you did not intend.
And there's, there's kind of a life there that's hard to
explain. And it, it doesn't go away from
generation to generation, that creativity will always be there,
that desire to make things. And so it'll be interesting to
see, yeah, to see how it. Yeah.
(45:50):
I think the copyright issue likeyou mentioned before, that's
going to be a major one, becauseif you use like an AI generated
image for a book cover, you can't copyright that image.
And likewise if authors are starting to use AI, you even
just passages of the book, do they then surrender the whole
copyright? Is it all like you?
(46:13):
It's it's massively, massively uncertain.
And I would just stay clear justfrom like an ethical point of
view that you can't really call yourself a writer if you're
getting a machine to write for you unless you've got some kind
of impairments, which is totallyunderstandable.
But. Yeah, yeah.
Oh, gosh. Like, what would Tolkien say is
(46:34):
just like, just like an amazing man who invented languages while
he was in the trenches? One like no.
Like no. We'll have to make an AI model a
Tolkien and ask. Him.
Yeah, right there we go. In his actual voice, like in his
action, yeah. Oh, Sarah, it's been absolutely
(46:55):
wonderful chatting with you. I'm calling a lot of ground and
well. And I could see how you you
could totally break this into A2parter too, all about what we
talked about at the beginning and then we're wading into AI.
I'm sure it's not a conversationthat's over either.
I'll definitely hear. What you're.
I think I might make it a staplequestion this year because it is
such a big thing. Every interview I'm going to ask
(47:17):
what you think about AI because I'm doing a a Potter survey at
the minute as we go into this new year.
Just just to anyone who wants todo it, it could be a beginner
writer, it could be a writer well into the career, just to
see have they been affected by AI Like you say, you've been
affected because your book has been used as part of the
modelling. And it's just to get a bit of an
(47:41):
insight because I don't know, I've chat with a lot of writer
friends in the community and everyone just feels a bit
helpless. Yeah, and and then don't talk to
professors of of writing either,unless you want to go down an
entire like they are up against.They're up against like imagine
grading papers right now, like did this student?
(48:04):
Is this actually their work? And also wondering like, what's
the point? You know, when a Provost, this
literally was on a conversation with some friends of mine who
are in higher education, where they were like, yeah, I was at a
meeting recently where our Provost said, well, maybe with
AI in the mix, we won't have to teach writing anymore.
And the keynote speaker after that said the day we stop
(48:27):
teaching writing is the day I die.
It is scary, isn't it? Well, yeah, we'll see.
We'll see. So say, if anyone wants to find
out more about you, how what's the best place to look?
Where to where should we go? Yep, I've put everything at
saraharthur.com in as clean a way as possible.
(48:48):
You can get from there to even to like pre-order information
about the book and all the perksthat my publisher is offering.
And that's Sarah with an H. Lovely.
And once the Queen is out on the30th of January, check it out.
Link will be in the description.Sarah, thank you very much
again. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Lovely, so honoured to be with you.
Thank. You thank you everyone for
(49:10):
listening.
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