August 13, 2024 • 46 mins
Jennifer L. Armentrout is one of the biggest authors in the world right now. A #1 NYT Bestseller, as well as a #1 International Bestseller, Jennifer has penned over 70 books in a range of genres and for all different audiences.
In this episode, we talk all about Jennifer's journey into writing and how it all led to the release of her brand new book, Born Of Blood And Ash, which hit the shelves on 13.08.2024 (link below).
We take a deep dive into Born Of Blood And Ash, exploring the writing side and how it felt to bring together the final book in the Flesh And Fire series.
We also dive into worldbuilding, character creation, and plotting, and Jennifer shares her best tips for writers.
It's truly an insightful interview with one of the best writers in the world. You're bound to learn something new.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
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(00:23):
social media or with anyone who you think may be interested.
Thank you very much for listening.
Enjoy the show. Welcome to another episode of
the Fantasy Writers Tool Shed. I'm your host, Richie Bowling.
(00:46):
And today I am delighted to be joined by number one New York
Times bestseller and international bestselling author
Jennifer L Almond Shrouds. Jennifer, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.Oh, thank you very much for
joining me. It's an honour to share with you
and you've got a new book out. Congratulations.
(01:07):
Thank you. Thank you.
It is blood and ash. Yes, it is coming out.
I believe it came out on August the 13th and it is the longest
book I've ever written. It's it's unnecessarily
enormous. But how big is it?
(01:28):
Well, this is it right here. So I don't know if you you get
to see it. It's I think it was I, I want to
say it was over 300,000 words. Yeah, it's a lot.
Bet that wasn't fun to edit. No, I'm sure my editors were
probably like I, I, my editors know like when I go silent from
(01:51):
them, like, because usually likeif I, you know, encounter a,
like a, a plot hole as I'm writing or like something that
I'm not sure about, like I'll message my editor to like, hey,
do you have time to jump on this?
So when I go completely quiet and they do not hear from me,
they have learned that means oneor two things.
(02:12):
I am running late on the book and I'm just voiding them or
like, yeah, I just don't want totell them something.
And so like I, there was severalmonths where I was just like, I
didn't reach out to be the publisher at all because I was
like, Oh my God. Because I kept going back and
redoing the beginning because I was like, OK, how do I, I need
(02:34):
to cut words out? Like I need to get some words
out. And I was like, OK, the
beginning would probably be the best part to do it.
And every time I did it, I wouldend up adding more stuff, which
is not helpful or like I couldn't remove it.
Like this was stuff that had to be in in the book.
And I mean, you know, they had they took it well, but they were
(02:58):
like, how many that they really don't care so much about the
word count as they do the page because a lot of people don't
realize this. Oh my gosh, I see your Kitty.
I just saw something white moving around the black.
I was like, what is happening back there?
(03:19):
But a lot of people don't realize that how a book is
published, like the format, there's only a certain amount of
pages that can be put into that book before you may have a
quality issue where you know, the binding won't stay together.
So, and also, of course, the cost of making the book goes up
per page. So, you know, that's the main
(03:42):
thing they they care about is OK, what's going to be the page
count? And what really effects that is
like, if you have like, say, forexample, like a bunch of short
chapters, it's like you can't start the chapter on the same
page. I mean, you can, but that's just
not how it's been done. They want to, you know, they
have to start on another page. So, you know, yeah, they were,
(04:04):
they, Yeah, they were, they werenervous, but it wasn't, it
wasn't as bad as we feared. That's always it's always a
tough balance between for you delivering what you read as
wants and obviously having to appease the powers that be.
Yeah, because it's a, it's a fine line.
(04:26):
And you know, and The thing is like when I first started
writing, I didn't. Of course, like most people, you
don't know about any of this. You don't you don't even think
about the fact that there's onlyso many pages, a trade paperback
and hold before this the spine breaks or the same for hardcover
or publishers have a price range.
They factor into their budgets that they know that the book
(04:47):
will cost between this amount. And that's how they determine
their pricing structure advance,if there's an advance like
everything. And you just don't realize that
until you know, And I mean, there's probably a lot of
authors who've been around for along time that just, you know,
which is OK, just was maybe never curious about it, what
goes on behind the scenes. But yeah, it can be hard.
(05:09):
I wish I didn't know some of this stuff because it gets in my
head as I'm writing and I'm like, oh, I can't.
Like, you know, that's what one of the reasons why I had gotten
behind on writing that book is because I just kept going back.
And if I hadn't really thought about that, I wouldn't have, you
know, spent two months trying toedit down words.
(05:30):
Yeah, especially that volume as well.
Fair play to you before we dive into that book where I always
like to ask about people's sort of journeys through writing and
how how you got into it and whatsort of led you down this path.
So mine, I feel like it is like pretty cliche.
(05:54):
I well, I guess it's not 100%. So I always wanted to be a
writer. And the reason being is because
I loved reading. And so I grew up very, very
poor. And so we didn't like for summer
vacations, for example, that that did not exist in her
household. But what my mom would do is with
(06:17):
my brother and I, she would during the summer, like we would
walk from her house down to the Public Library.
So and you know, I don't know ifyour libraries are like this,
but they would always have thesesections where there were books
that were donated to them. And usually books that are
donated to the library, They can't really put them in their
library system. So they go into like a free area
(06:39):
where, you know, you can keep the books.
And a lot of those books were always like romance or an
especially historical romance. And I don't know if you've ever
taken a gander at 1980s, nineties historical romance,
probably not the most appropriate thing for a 13 year
(07:00):
old to be reading, but I was. And so, but so, you know,
reading became an escape. Like it was a way from for me to
like just read about different times or different places.
And finally, as I got a little bit older and discovered the
young adult section, which, you know, wasn't anywhere near the
(07:20):
size that it, it is now. So I wanted to be able to do
that. But I knew that, you know,
becoming a writer is like, you know, it, it feels like a dream,
like it feels like a like a hot dream, like where it's like
you're not going to whatever. So I went to college for
completely not this psychology and sociology with a criminal
(07:45):
justice or criminology. That's really cool.
Yeah, because I suppose that's so helpful when getting into a
character's head, creating characters.
It's that is like one of the best degrees you probably could
have learned. Yeah, I tell myself that because
I had to pay off my student loans.
Like I was like, yeah, I, I am kind of using this, but I, I was
(08:08):
always fascinated with the humanmind.
And So what I wanted to do was work in what they call
behavioural science, which is, you know, back in the day, I'm
sure they call it something different now, it was called
profiling. Now, of course, profiling is
associated with not great things, but back then it was
(08:28):
basically studying certain casesso that you could build a
profile of a person who'd be more likely to do this.
And so that's, that's what I wanted to do.
But like, to do that, you usually have to be working
within the FBI. And, and then I had, you know,
back then they had a lot stricter, you know, drug
(08:52):
policies of your past. And so like, you know, I think
back then it was like you couldn't smoke pot more than
three times. You were then disqualified.
And now I'm sure great. And I'm like 3.
Like, why is it 3? It's like, why is 3 the magic
number here? Three strikes.
(09:13):
Yeah, it's like, OK, you're, yousmoked it three times.
You're a pothead. We can't trust you.
It's like, but so I ended up working.
I did work in the field of psychology for a little bit, but
like, you know, and then just one time I just started writing
again because I did write when Iwas a teenager and it kind of,
you know, it grew from there. But I always wanted to be a
(09:35):
writer. But I also knew this is, I
always tell like aspiring writers that, you know, you
don't have to go to college for,if you want to, you can, but you
don't have to go to college and major.
I would suggest go to college for your secondary because
getting, you know, into writing and being able to make a a lot
of a life off of it, a living off of it isn't easy.
(09:57):
And so, you know, having that backup, but it was, it was
something I always wanted to do because I loved reading so.
Much. And what What was the big break
like for you? Was it hard to break in and did
you ever feel like it was never going to happen?
Yeah, you know, I did because like, when like so much has
changed in the publishing world in the just even the last
(10:19):
decade. So I started writing seriously
probably in 2007, 2008, but I had like performance anxiety
basically. Like I wouldn't submit it
anybody because then it became real.
Like it was, you know, then you're actually doing this.
But during that time, keep in mind, so I think I finished the
(10:40):
book like in 2009 and then in 2010 I, you know, found this
website calledoritrack.net and this is a like a website back
then. I believe it still exists where
you could submit your queries, whatever your first 10 pages and
people in the forum would help critique it or make changes.
(11:02):
And but keep in mind, like back then, like Twitter, I think just
started, the Internet was nowhere near the way it is now.
And so there wasn't a lot of readily available information at
your fingertips. But also back then and this so
that's so this would be about 2010 and so that's what 14 wait
(11:23):
a minute. I can't count.
It's 14 years ago. Yes.
I'm like wait a minute time has no I.
I can't. I can't count.
I'm not connecting yet. Yeah, I was like, time has no
meaning now. But like self-publishing, for
example, or even small press publishing, meaning an
independent publisher that wasn't part at that time, like
(11:45):
the big six, it was heavily frowned upon.
It was not a thing for the vast majority of people and it was
extremely hard to get an agent. So I had to go about it like
pretty much the way everybody does.
But you know, I, I had some, I forget what I got was somebody
had posted advice somewhere and they said, like, while you're
(12:07):
out on submission with one book,start writing another book
because the first one may not beit, but the one you're working
on now maybe. So I, I, I kind of did that, but
my first publisher was a small press publisher and, and I had
that deal before I signed with an agent and then I signed with
(12:28):
an agent after that. But I did have a very unorthodox
way for that time because again,back then they, they were
self-publishing or indie publishing with an independent
publisher was heavily frowned upon.
But you know, I, I stuck with itand you know, I, you know, I
(12:51):
always believe the don't put your eggs all in one basket
mentality like, so you know it, but it, it was, it definitely an
unorthodox way. But I mean, I'm glad now for
newer writers, you have so many more options for people and
viable options than we did even 14 years.
(13:12):
Ago, Yeah. It's amazing how it's all
changed. One more question that I wanted
to ask you. Just you mentioned your
background and I cook quite a similar background and something
that is a bit of a bugbear for me isn't pasta syndrome.
I always wondered whether you suffered from that too when you
were starting out. Oh my God, I still have it.
(13:33):
Never. Goes away, does it?
No, I mean, I'm sure for some people it does and I envy them,
but I feel like it never really goes away.
And I and I for me, I always thought before that the reason
why it never went away from me is because I didn't start like
everybody else. Not no, not everybody else, but
other people who were in my genre at where, you know, they
(13:54):
went the extreme traditional right out the gate.
And so I always thought, OK, that's why I have imposter
syndrome. But then I realized, yeah, that
doesn't go away. It's like it just, I think it.
But you know what? There's a part of me that's that
is OK with that because I feel like the moment because I do
feel like once you don't have imposter syndrome and you're
(14:16):
like, OK, I've made it. I feel like yeah, you're going
to jinx yourself number. One, it keeps driving you on,
doesn't it? Yeah.
Yeah. And I also, I think that like
once you think you've made it, you start to believe your own
height. And the moment you believe your
own height, it it's shit at thatpoint.
(14:37):
Like I feel like we probably allat somebody, you know, have read
something or watched ATV show where we're like, Oh yeah, you
know, like we can tell when someone's in love with their
writing, not so much in love with the story they're telling
kind of vibe. But like, so I feel like having
imposter syndrome keeps you fromfrom that happening.
So at least there's a positive spin.
(14:58):
Yeah, definitely. Tell us all about Bone of Blood
Mash. It's the last book in the series
is a bit of an emotional one writing.
Yeah, I think any blast book in a series is always, like,
bittersweet. I mean, at least for me, there's
always a point in writing every book where I'm so done with it
and I just want to kill all the characters and just, you know,
(15:22):
announce new characters halfway through and be like, spoiler,
everybody's dead, here's the newcharacters.
But you do like, when you work, as with book, you know, in that
world for so long, they do almost become real to you for a
while. And and it's even, but it's it's
not so much that case with this book because this series is the
(15:44):
prequel to the main series, the blood and Ash and the characters
that you see in the flesh and fire series, you will see again
in blood and ash. So I don't, it's not like I'm
saying goodbye to them yet, but that does make it more
complicated because you have twotimelines basically that you
(16:06):
have to keep straight. That is in almost the same world
in a way. And it makes it a little bit
more complicated. But it is the final book for
this series. And what it's basically doing is
in the Blood and ash world, you learn that there are gods that
(16:26):
the people in the Kingdom worship.
And I knew that there was like this story behind a lot of what
was told about the gods weren't true.
Like basically what happens in history to us, right?
Where you have all these versions told over so many
years, you really no longer knowwhat is the truth, but there may
be a kernel of truth in it. And when I was like, I think it
(16:50):
was like book two or, you know, book two or three of the Blood
and Ash series, I was like, I was having to kind of summarize
it in that book. And then I realized, OK, wait a
minute. Instead of me summarizing it
like I should maybe tell how this happened.
And, and that's where the flesh and fire series came from.
(17:13):
So you basically are are in thatseries, you're learning about
what some of the things that happened that made the world
that you see in blood and ash the the way that it is.
And, and, and so that's where the idea came.
So you get also, you know, there's a lot of questions from
both series that you they finally get answered in this
(17:36):
series. So you don't have to read the
blood and Ash series. This can be read ahead of that.
It probably is beneficial to youto do that, but it's it's
really, you know, kind of paves the way for the the next book in
Blood and Ash series too. Nice.
Like the continuity there. Yeah, Yeah, it's fun, isn't it?
(17:59):
Just like playing around with these series, are they different
time periods or these sorts of all quite close together?
No, they're, they're, you know, it's so funny.
I always have readers. They want to know the exact
amount of years, probably the month.
And I refuse to say it. And the only reason why is
because I will forget what I said.
(18:19):
And they will be somebody who ismuch smarter than me, who's
going to sit down, read these books and actually figure out
the year, the month, the day andthe time difference.
And it'll be completely incorrect from what I said.
So I always give like this range, but it's, I always say
it's about it. It's several hundred to 1000
years. Oh.
(18:40):
Nice. Because I kind of looked at,
looked at like in our history oflike you look at like, for
example, the Roman Empire, right?
Like how advanced that was compared to everything that came
after that and how many years had to pass before society
started to once again start doing what was done in the in
(19:03):
the in the empire then. So that was kind of how I
imagined would be have to be that amount of years would have
to pass. But it's good in a way because
it keeps the actual timelines different enough that I don't
get them confused. But it's like I have to remember
(19:23):
when I'm in the Blood and Ash world, there's certain things
that those characters wouldn't know, you know?
So it can get a little in that way.
Yeah, I suppose it's nice to plant a few seeds as well the
next series all the time. But did you have a favorite part
of this book without giving any spoilers away?
Yeah, there is there, there are.There are a couple scenes that I
(19:48):
knew that I would always write and I knew this when I wrote the
second or third book in Blood and Ash.
Like there's a scene in the third book of the Blood and Ash
series that you finally is something is mentioned and you
actually finally see it, what they're referencing.
And so I was, I always knew thatwas coming.
(20:09):
I was excited to write that. There is also some stuff that
happens in this book that I wouldn't say because it's going
to, it's going to make me sound demented.
If I said it was my favorite scene, but I I feel like they
are because they're powerful in in a way that anybody who has a
(20:30):
lot of power, they're not going to be, they're not going to
always be good and they're not going to always be able to make
the right decision. It doesn't mean that they're
bad, but that doesn't mean that like basically it, it's kind of
showing. I've always believed this, like
no one should have ultimate power.
Like it's, it's going like that's saying it will corrupt at
(20:52):
some point and or you will in your anger, you know, do
something that is just as terrible as what you're angry
with. And so there's some I knew that
I was going to finally get to that point in the series where
you you can understand how the people, you know, how they
(21:15):
decided that they should not have, like they should have.
I'm trying to describe this without spoilers.
So like, like basically you, yousee why certain decisions were
made about who has absolute power, because nobody, I don't
feel like can truly wield that appropriately.
(21:37):
Something's going to happen. And they were hard scenes to
write. Because I do think I feel like
one thing a lot of books do, whether they're fancy, right,
whether they're dealing with aliens or vampires or gods, they
kind of mirror real life things that happen.
And where it's like one of the themes in this book and in this
(21:57):
series is at what point does anger turn to vengeance?
And once it becomes that, are you any better than that, what
you are fighting against? And knowing that I was finally
getting to that point in writingit, It was my favorite part to
write, but it was also the hardest because I feel like you
(22:20):
can look to the world and see examples of that where there's
no good people here, like in this situation.
And it I think it makes even fantasy books just so realistic
because again, I feel like you can look to outside and see
examples of this kind of stuff. Yeah.
(22:40):
And do you think people can relate to these issues more when
they're told in the story formatthen sort of just delivered on
news channels? I do I because I feel like I
feel like it's the same reason why comedians can sometimes can
say things that you're like, what, wait, what?
(23:03):
That if you heard said anyplace else that you wouldn't want to
listen to it. But if they can get you to laugh
at the same, and then it's like you don't realize that, yeah,
they're telling you something and you're laughing.
And and then hopefully, you know, once you think about it,
you start to realize, I think it's the same reason because it
doesn't feel like it's being shoved down your throat.
(23:24):
It doesn't feel like someone is,you know, on a moral high ground
trying to tell you, well, you'rewrong or they're wrong.
You're able to actually kind of watch it without feeling judged
or confused or whatever. You can read it.
And I, I do think, I mean, I've had, there's been examples I can
(23:44):
even think of in my older books where certain things would
happen. And it's like people would, you
know, you could see that it would be heavily close to like
immigration, where if you have aproblem with aliens being
rounded up, but you don't have aproblem with people in real life
having that same thing done to them, like where, you know, it
(24:05):
can make you sometimes stop and think, right?
Like, and when I say aliens, I mean aliens from space, not an
immigrant. So, but yeah, so I, I do think
it makes it easier for people because also, I think we forget
because of the Internet that people live in these very small
(24:26):
enclaves where they don't have the same experience as another
person. They don't have the ability to
meet different people or experience different lives.
And I think when they're reading, it does sometimes
expose people to different cultures, different beliefs,
different backgrounds. And people do learn that way,
especially when you get into more contemporary side of books,
(24:49):
but even in the fantasies. Do you feel like it's important
to include them kind of things in your stories?
I mean, I, you know, I think forme personally, it's not
something I go in intentionally writing.
Like I don't go in like I'm going to try to sneak a message
in here, you know, underneath people's nose.
(25:09):
But I think like when you deal with a fantasy book, for
example, you and you know, there's only, there's only so
many ways fantasy books are written, right?
Like they kind of have almost the same overarching plot of
there's sometimes kingdoms, there's there's the good people,
there's the bad people. And I feel like for me and like
(25:30):
many other fantasy writers, you actually look at history to kind
of shape how you tell it. And by doing that then you are,
you end up because history does repeat itself.
It seems like even if we know better, history will repeat,
seems to repeat itself, that yousometimes do find things
mirroring what's happening in the world around you.
(25:52):
And it's not always intentional,but I do think it does make it
more realistic because you can see like, again, you could be
dealing with any type of, you know, being that doesn't exist
in the real world, but they're facing the same problems.
Yeah. And I love it.
I just think it's so, so liberating to take what we see
(26:15):
in our world and and shape it inunique ways and ways that people
can relate to probably a lot more than when they say it.
And I suppose through the culture, sometimes we have to
that's how we reach people is through like cultural medium
songs, Bob Dylan, for example, like the amount of messages he
(26:39):
passed on through his songs. And I don't know, I think it's
it's brilliant that you're doingit.
And I think a lot more writers should consider not obviously
over it down your throat, but ifit's if it's there and the
opportunity is there and. Again, I think that like I feel
like it certain books, especially fantasy, I just don't
(27:01):
even see how that you couldn't find that in those books, right?
Like I feel like you're going tofind it because most of them are
inspired by even ones that have like the buffet running around
or Dragons. They have things that are
happening in there that happenedin our, you know, in our
history. And so I feel like you, you just
(27:24):
have it in there whether or not the author realizes they're
doing it. But again, I feel like the thing
for me with importance is fantasy.
When I'm reading it, I still want to believe it.
Like when I'm reading it, I got to believe it like you can, you
can tell me any line of bullshit.
I just got to believe it, right?I have to believe this story.
And like, I think one of the ways you do that is when you're
(27:47):
able to relate to that, like you're able to relate to certain
events, you know, not just the characters, but certain events
that are happening. Once you're able to relate to
all of that, it becomes so much more real to you as the reader.
And I think that's when you do start to get readers really
invested in the world itself andnot just the characters.
(28:08):
Yeah, I think that's that's stick with the the whale
building side because it's a massive topic in the world of
fantasy, isn't it? I mean this most distinguishing
feature. And so you're Wells very sort of
highly spoken of. How do you approach the creation
(28:29):
process? You know, strangely I got the so
I have written in every genre atthis point, like everything is
set for like religious or inspirational or historical.
I've written a lot of genres andI always wanted to write
fantasy, but I was very intimidated, intimidated by it
because you have you don't have like because you know, in every
(28:51):
other, you know, novel, most of them you the world are exists.
It's, you don't have to explain to people like how communication
happens or like you don't have, you know, you don't have to
explain or acknowledge the building, right?
Because you can just say a skyscraper and throw some
adjectives in there and people know what you're talking about
(29:13):
In fantasy. You didn't have to research what
could they built this building of if they didn't have this?
And then five hours later, you're pretty confident you
could build a freaking building.So like you have to, the world
becomes a character in a way, like it becomes its own living,
breathing thing. And I feel like that is what
(29:33):
took me the longest. I, I actually got the idea for
Blood and Ash while watching the2016 Olympics.
It has literally nothing to do with the Olympics at all.
I don't know why I did the idea.I was watching probably the the
gymnastics portion of it, and I just started.
I've always been a huge fan of Greek mythology, so I'm just
(29:55):
going to say it was that like the Greek aspect of it.
But I literally took me from 2016 to 2019 of fleshing out the
world because I was so nervous because again, I never wrote a
fantasy or high fantasy, I guessis what they would call it.
(30:19):
And it it just, I feel like I had to take my time and I had to
really flesh out this world. But yeah, it's it's, I think
it's as important as the characters because again, the
world can have Dragons, it can have witches, it can have
vampires, it can have shifters, it can have whatever.
It has to be believable and you know, when you write fantasy,
(30:40):
you have to create rules and then you have to stick to those
rules that you've created. So it it takes, I feel like it,
it's a lot building that. Is that one of the key things
you think to making it believable is the creation of
the rules and and sticking to them?
Yeah, I think I, I think the, the, I think the having like
(31:02):
guidelines, right? Like that because we, we like,
we have certain things we know we can't do in the in our world
and having that makes it OK. This isn't just a magical world.
But I do think what makes it more believable is the
characters and also like what the world, what is, what is the
part of that world, like society, things like that.
(31:24):
I think that's what makes it more believable to people is
because they can still like see themselves in that, as that
character in that world and the world makes sense to them.
Yeah, Nice. Excellent.
Well, building steps. I think that's one of the best
I've had though, is to treat theworld like a character.
I think that's really good. Yeah, actually.
(31:45):
The world changes. I have character words.
Yep. And it's, and I feel like with
fantasy, it's yeah, I feel like you have to because again, you
don't have the actual real worldto lean back.
And it it's it, it almost, it has, it has to come off the page
like that world. People have to be able to
picture it. Because when you are writing a
(32:06):
contemporary, you can, like I said, you can say a skyscraper.
People know what you're talking about.
They so they if you're a person who visualizes what you're
reading, they're able to do that.
But in fantasy, you really have to find out ways to describe
things in a way that isn't obvious what you're doing.
Yeah. So that people can visualize the
(32:26):
story as they're reading. What would you do do?
Would you like pick out certain details that give you enough to
form the image or would you go into quite a lot of detail about
things? You know, I would go into enough
detail. So, so basically when I'm
writing, I have to be able to see it in my head.
It has to play like a movie or ATV show in my head.
(32:49):
And if I can't, that means something's wrong with what I'm
writing. So if I'm writing it and I can
see it as I'm writing it, then Iknow I've given enough detail.
I try not to harp on the detail.Like I don't want like an entire
paragraph that's just explaininga forest, like, you know what I
(33:09):
mean? Unless there's something
important about that forest like, but I, I feel like if I'm
writing it and I'm seeing it, then I've got the detail.
But I do feel like that's different for every writer.
But I feel like as you, the writer, you have to be able to
at least visualize it to some extent.
But I do understand some people,which we all learned on the
(33:32):
Internet not too many years ago that some people don't see what
they read. So which is I'm one of those
people who do. And I never knew that there was
people that didn't. So I don't, I don't know about
you. Yeah, no, I'm same as you.
I, I, there was, I think there'sanother thing recently about
people. You have a sort of monologue in
the head and some people don't. Yeah, I was like.
(33:53):
But The thing is, I don't think they.
Understand what it'd be like to just be quiet, No.
No, no, because you ask them, I don't think they understand what
an inner monologue is. Because when you ask them, then
what do you hear? And they're like, my thoughts.
And I'm like, what do you think an inner monologue is?
It's your thoughts like. So I guess what they may be
thinking is that their, their thoughts don't have a voice that
(34:16):
they, you know what I mean? Doesn't have a voice, but I'm
like, ours has a voice like, youknow what I mean?
We just I, I, I think. It's the empty.
Right. Yeah, like.
What we see see in the the riotsin this country at the moment,
you, you makes you wonder. Yeah.
Well, yeah, So you maybe that isthe case.
There is a part of me sometimes that thinks, man, it would be
like kind of amazing just for a day if my head was completely
(34:39):
silent. It's like just.
But I feel like that leads to other problems down the road I
think. I'll enjoy it.
I do. I feel scared.
Yeah, I feel like the silence, you know, that's one thing in
this book, the character Sarah, Tina, she has, it was really
important to me to have like, even though she becomes a very
(35:02):
powerful person to have that this character has struggles
that we can identify with. And so she, she has anxiety
really bad. And, and for her, like when her
head's quiet is when it's the worst, like when she's not
focused on something, not doing something.
And when her head goes quiet, then that's when you know, it's
(35:26):
like if anybody's had anxiety, that's when you start paying
attention to the stupidest things.
Like you start noticing your heart rate and then you start
noticing your breathing. And if you're like me, then
you're like, well, why? How do I breathe?
Like, you know, you start falling down these weird mental
rabbit holes. And, you know, with her, it's
(35:47):
the silence is the worst. It's because that that allows
you to really think about thingsyou don't necessarily want to
think about. So yeah, I don't think, now that
I think about it, probably having a quiet mind doesn't stay
that way very long. Yeah, so it's like our
characters. Obviously writing a series, the
(36:11):
characters play a huge role in keeping readers with with the
books. So how do you approach the
creation of your characters? I think for me, it's like when
I, when anytime I start a book, there will be usually 2
characters that will immediatelycome to mind.
And I, you know, I, I know who they are in my head, like I,
(36:35):
what they're purposes, what someof their journey will be.
And then for me, how I write, like I have that basic
foundation that like with, with Serafina, she is someone who was
supposed to save her Kingdom butfailed, you know, even though it
really wasn't something she had control over it.
(36:57):
And so I knew that she had like this guilt and, you know, kind
of felt like people, you know, always thought about this when
they saw her. And she was also knew that she
wouldn't be known to many peoplebecause it was kind of like she
was hidden away as this, this failure.
And I knew that as I was starting to write it.
(37:20):
But then with characters I, I'velearned that no matter what you
may intend the journey to be, sometimes the story changes like
as you're writing it, the story sometimes can go into other
directions that then changes howthe characters developments
going to be. But I always have a general idea
(37:41):
of like one to two characters. And then once I start writing
like the secondary characters and other main characters start
to come up from when I'm writing.
Yeah, it's, it's amazing. How do these shape stories,
isn't it? And you go in through and then
you realize that this doesn't work.
So yeah. And, you know, and The thing is
(38:02):
like, I want to say that I have learned to let it go.
Like when it happens, like, you know, just let it go because it,
you're this story's telling you that what you originally planned
no longer works. I'm here to tell you, I've
written, I think 70 books. I have not learned this.
(38:22):
I I still fight it. What was your favorite genre?
You've written So many I know, probably most well known for the
romance the last few years, but what is your favorite genre?
You know, I think my favorite genre is probably the fantasy
(38:44):
and paranormal genres because they are a truth.
Like especially fantasy, it's, it's true escapism.
And I know a lot of readers readthose for that reason, but it
also, I think, you know, these authors forget that also gives
us that same thing where it's escapism.
And I think it's just something,and I think part of it too,
(39:05):
again, is I was always, always obsessed with like mythology,
Norse mythology, things like that.
And it's, you know, and fantasy just really reminds me of like
these stories that people at onetime really believe and you
know, and you, and then it again, like with my, the way my
head works, like a lot of writers, we just then we, we, we
(39:27):
always, we say something normal,but our thought doesn't end
there. So like they like, but what if
they were real? And so, and it's, I, I feel like
that's why, you know, my love for mythology grew into the love
of the paranormal and fantasy because again, you see a lot of
those roots in that in differentmythologies throughout the
(39:51):
entire world. You can see a lot of the
fantasies and even science fiction come from a lot of that.
And do you particularly enjoy a young adult audience?
Is that your sort of target audience do you think?
Not for these books. So these books are definitely
adults, but we, I do, there are younger readers who read them.
(40:11):
And when I wrote young adults, honestly, like they have like
these age guidelines. But really as a reader, you know
what you're ready for as a reader, typically, because when
I do write in adults and I go tolike young adult events, like
you can tell like readers who are like the, the middle teenage
years, like 1516, one of them isgoing to be, is going to seem so
(40:35):
much older than the one standingnext to them.
And so I feel like readers, theyknow what they're ready for.
But like, for example, if any ofthese books ended up in a young
adult library section, I'd be like, Oh my God, this may not be
great for them, but I started off writing an adult.
(40:58):
So it's always like, you know, my, you know, I feel like it's,
I haven't written an adult book in a while, but I feel like, I
don't want to say it's like going home because that sounds
cheesy, but it's, it's like, OK,that's how I got started was
writing an adult and I, and I want to write it again.
But, and I think with young adults, the reason why I think
(41:21):
people like to write it and readers love to read it is
because no matter what type of genre you're writing in, you
have people experiencing their firsts of everything, like first
loss, first heartache, first love, first lust, first
whatever. And I feel like that is
something people, even if it's sad, they sometimes want to
relive, like what it felt like before.
(41:44):
Yeah, you've experienced certain.
Things. No, let me get that first once.
Yeah. Awesome.
I've got one more question for you, Jeff.
What is the most important or the best piece of advice you've
got for any writers, aspiring writers out there?
You know, I think the best advice that I could give is, you
(42:07):
know, and this is something thatother people have said and, and
that's how I heard it. And it's going to sound so
simple is write what you like toread.
And again, people are probably are listening to this like,
well, no shit. However, that you forget that.
(42:27):
And especially as you progress in your writing career, you're
going to feel pressure whether you're with a publisher or not,
you're going to see what's selling and you're going to see
what everybody's talking about. You're going to see what's
trending out there. And sometimes if you're with a
publisher or an agent, they willsay, hey, have you ever thought
(42:49):
about writing XYZ? That's what everybody wants
right now. And or even without a publisher,
you can, you can look at and seelike what's ranked in the top
100 of Amazon. And you, you know, I need to be
writing this, which is fine if that is something you genuinely
want to write. And if you find yourself writing
(43:13):
in a genre that you do not read,it's not going to end well for
you. And because what's going to
either happen is you're going to, you're going to end up
hating, right? And you're going to hate the
process and, and it may not evenbe good because you don't know
the genre and you're not happy writing.
(43:33):
And I feel like at some point ina lot, a lot of authors, I was
there where a publisher wanted me to write something that I was
like, you know, I don't know, like it's just not my thing.
And because I don't write like what you what I would call
serious contemporary, like whereit, it's more of a literary kind
(43:56):
of thought to it. It's not my thing.
But like I, my publisher really,really was pushing for it and I
did it. But like, it was, it was, it was
so hard. I mean, it was to the point
where like, I was like, I don't even know why I'm doing this
right now. Like, you know, and I, I feel
like you do run the risk of getting real burnt out.
(44:18):
Like because, and again, I, I feel like we all some point find
ourselves there. And I found out where I saw that
somebody saying it, where they said, read what you want to
write. And it was something that I had
to remind myself that even if what I'm writing right now isn't
what's trending, it doesn't matter because trends always go
(44:39):
in a circle and they're always going to be readers there
reading what you're writing. And I, I think it's something we
forget. So it, it's the best sounds
super simple, but it's somethingwe forget.
Like as your career goes on. That's a very pleased advice.
Oh well, Jennifer, thank you very much again for giving us
time, your very busy schedule tochat with me.
(45:01):
I know a lot of people listening.
I'm going to find this is a veryuseful and insightful chat.
So thank you and congratulationsagain on the book.
I have no doubt it's going to beanother role in success.
And everyone listening at home, go out and buy a coffee to make
sure that happens. The links in the description.
Jennifer, where's the best placeto find out a bit more about you
and to maybe stay in touch and have you got a newsletter and
(45:23):
stuff people can subscribe to? Yes, if you go to my website,
itsjenniferarmantrout.com, you can sign up for the newsletter
there. Usually I'm on Instagram and
that's pretty much really, otherthan a reader group on Facebook,
I'm not really on any other social media site.
I feel like I've passed the age of learning how to use those
(45:47):
appropriately. So, but yeah, if you go to my
website, you can find links to where you can actually interact
with me and sign up for the newsletter.
Awesome. Thank you very much again.
It's an absolute pleasure and thank you everyone for
listening.
Thank you for listening to the Fantasy Risers Tool Shed.
If you'd like to join our writing community on Discord and
get access to fantasy writing classes and books on Patreon,
check the links in the description.
And if you don't want to miss any future episodes, be sure to
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quick rating on Spotify or iTunes and share this episode on
(00:23):
social media or with anyone who you think may be interested.
Thank you very much for listening.
Enjoy the show. Welcome to another episode of
the Fantasy Writers Tool Shed. I'm your host, Richie Bowling.
(00:46):
And today I am delighted to be joined by number one New York
Times bestseller and international bestselling author
Jennifer L Almond Shrouds. Jennifer, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.Oh, thank you very much for
joining me. It's an honour to share with you
and you've got a new book out. Congratulations.
(01:07):
Thank you. Thank you.
It is blood and ash. Yes, it is coming out.
I believe it came out on August the 13th and it is the longest
book I've ever written. It's it's unnecessarily
enormous. But how big is it?
(01:28):
Well, this is it right here. So I don't know if you you get
to see it. It's I think it was I, I want to
say it was over 300,000 words. Yeah, it's a lot.
Bet that wasn't fun to edit. No, I'm sure my editors were
probably like I, I, my editors know like when I go silent from
(01:51):
them, like, because usually likeif I, you know, encounter a,
like a, a plot hole as I'm writing or like something that
I'm not sure about, like I'll message my editor to like, hey,
do you have time to jump on this?
So when I go completely quiet and they do not hear from me,
they have learned that means oneor two things.
(02:12):
I am running late on the book and I'm just voiding them or
like, yeah, I just don't want totell them something.
And so like I, there was severalmonths where I was just like, I
didn't reach out to be the publisher at all because I was
like, Oh my God. Because I kept going back and
redoing the beginning because I was like, OK, how do I, I need
(02:34):
to cut words out? Like I need to get some words
out. And I was like, OK, the
beginning would probably be the best part to do it.
And every time I did it, I wouldend up adding more stuff, which
is not helpful or like I couldn't remove it.
Like this was stuff that had to be in in the book.
And I mean, you know, they had they took it well, but they were
(02:58):
like, how many that they really don't care so much about the
word count as they do the page because a lot of people don't
realize this. Oh my gosh, I see your Kitty.
I just saw something white moving around the black.
I was like, what is happening back there?
(03:19):
But a lot of people don't realize that how a book is
published, like the format, there's only a certain amount of
pages that can be put into that book before you may have a
quality issue where you know, the binding won't stay together.
So, and also, of course, the cost of making the book goes up
per page. So, you know, that's the main
(03:42):
thing they they care about is OK, what's going to be the page
count? And what really effects that is
like, if you have like, say, forexample, like a bunch of short
chapters, it's like you can't start the chapter on the same
page. I mean, you can, but that's just
not how it's been done. They want to, you know, they
have to start on another page. So, you know, yeah, they were,
(04:04):
they, Yeah, they were, they werenervous, but it wasn't, it
wasn't as bad as we feared. That's always it's always a
tough balance between for you delivering what you read as
wants and obviously having to appease the powers that be.
Yeah, because it's a, it's a fine line.
(04:26):
And you know, and The thing is like when I first started
writing, I didn't. Of course, like most people, you
don't know about any of this. You don't you don't even think
about the fact that there's onlyso many pages, a trade paperback
and hold before this the spine breaks or the same for hardcover
or publishers have a price range.
They factor into their budgets that they know that the book
(04:47):
will cost between this amount. And that's how they determine
their pricing structure advance,if there's an advance like
everything. And you just don't realize that
until you know, And I mean, there's probably a lot of
authors who've been around for along time that just, you know,
which is OK, just was maybe never curious about it, what
goes on behind the scenes. But yeah, it can be hard.
(05:09):
I wish I didn't know some of this stuff because it gets in my
head as I'm writing and I'm like, oh, I can't.
Like, you know, that's what one of the reasons why I had gotten
behind on writing that book is because I just kept going back.
And if I hadn't really thought about that, I wouldn't have, you
know, spent two months trying toedit down words.
(05:30):
Yeah, especially that volume as well.
Fair play to you before we dive into that book where I always
like to ask about people's sort of journeys through writing and
how how you got into it and whatsort of led you down this path.
So mine, I feel like it is like pretty cliche.
(05:54):
I well, I guess it's not 100%. So I always wanted to be a
writer. And the reason being is because
I loved reading. And so I grew up very, very
poor. And so we didn't like for summer
vacations, for example, that that did not exist in her
household. But what my mom would do is with
(06:17):
my brother and I, she would during the summer, like we would
walk from her house down to the Public Library.
So and you know, I don't know ifyour libraries are like this,
but they would always have thesesections where there were books
that were donated to them. And usually books that are
donated to the library, They can't really put them in their
library system. So they go into like a free area
(06:39):
where, you know, you can keep the books.
And a lot of those books were always like romance or an
especially historical romance. And I don't know if you've ever
taken a gander at 1980s, nineties historical romance,
probably not the most appropriate thing for a 13 year
(07:00):
old to be reading, but I was. And so, but so, you know,
reading became an escape. Like it was a way from for me to
like just read about different times or different places.
And finally, as I got a little bit older and discovered the
young adult section, which, you know, wasn't anywhere near the
(07:20):
size that it, it is now. So I wanted to be able to do
that. But I knew that, you know,
becoming a writer is like, you know, it, it feels like a dream,
like it feels like a like a hot dream, like where it's like
you're not going to whatever. So I went to college for
completely not this psychology and sociology with a criminal
(07:45):
justice or criminology. That's really cool.
Yeah, because I suppose that's so helpful when getting into a
character's head, creating characters.
It's that is like one of the best degrees you probably could
have learned. Yeah, I tell myself that because
I had to pay off my student loans.
Like I was like, yeah, I, I am kind of using this, but I, I was
(08:08):
always fascinated with the humanmind.
And So what I wanted to do was work in what they call
behavioural science, which is, you know, back in the day, I'm
sure they call it something different now, it was called
profiling. Now, of course, profiling is
associated with not great things, but back then it was
(08:28):
basically studying certain casesso that you could build a
profile of a person who'd be more likely to do this.
And so that's, that's what I wanted to do.
But like, to do that, you usually have to be working
within the FBI. And, and then I had, you know,
back then they had a lot stricter, you know, drug
(08:52):
policies of your past. And so like, you know, I think
back then it was like you couldn't smoke pot more than
three times. You were then disqualified.
And now I'm sure great. And I'm like 3.
Like, why is it 3? It's like, why is 3 the magic
number here? Three strikes.
(09:13):
Yeah, it's like, OK, you're, yousmoked it three times.
You're a pothead. We can't trust you.
It's like, but so I ended up working.
I did work in the field of psychology for a little bit, but
like, you know, and then just one time I just started writing
again because I did write when Iwas a teenager and it kind of,
you know, it grew from there. But I always wanted to be a
(09:35):
writer. But I also knew this is, I
always tell like aspiring writers that, you know, you
don't have to go to college for,if you want to, you can, but you
don't have to go to college and major.
I would suggest go to college for your secondary because
getting, you know, into writing and being able to make a a lot
of a life off of it, a living off of it isn't easy.
(09:57):
And so, you know, having that backup, but it was, it was
something I always wanted to do because I loved reading so.
Much. And what What was the big break
like for you? Was it hard to break in and did
you ever feel like it was never going to happen?
Yeah, you know, I did because like, when like so much has
changed in the publishing world in the just even the last
(10:19):
decade. So I started writing seriously
probably in 2007, 2008, but I had like performance anxiety
basically. Like I wouldn't submit it
anybody because then it became real.
Like it was, you know, then you're actually doing this.
But during that time, keep in mind, so I think I finished the
(10:40):
book like in 2009 and then in 2010 I, you know, found this
website calledoritrack.net and this is a like a website back
then. I believe it still exists where
you could submit your queries, whatever your first 10 pages and
people in the forum would help critique it or make changes.
(11:02):
And but keep in mind, like back then, like Twitter, I think just
started, the Internet was nowhere near the way it is now.
And so there wasn't a lot of readily available information at
your fingertips. But also back then and this so
that's so this would be about 2010 and so that's what 14 wait
(11:23):
a minute. I can't count.
It's 14 years ago. Yes.
I'm like wait a minute time has no I.
I can't. I can't count.
I'm not connecting yet. Yeah, I was like, time has no
meaning now. But like self-publishing, for
example, or even small press publishing, meaning an
independent publisher that wasn't part at that time, like
(11:45):
the big six, it was heavily frowned upon.
It was not a thing for the vast majority of people and it was
extremely hard to get an agent. So I had to go about it like
pretty much the way everybody does.
But you know, I, I had some, I forget what I got was somebody
had posted advice somewhere and they said, like, while you're
(12:07):
out on submission with one book,start writing another book
because the first one may not beit, but the one you're working
on now maybe. So I, I, I kind of did that, but
my first publisher was a small press publisher and, and I had
that deal before I signed with an agent and then I signed with
(12:28):
an agent after that. But I did have a very unorthodox
way for that time because again,back then they, they were
self-publishing or indie publishing with an independent
publisher was heavily frowned upon.
But you know, I, I stuck with itand you know, I, you know, I
(12:51):
always believe the don't put your eggs all in one basket
mentality like, so you know it, but it, it was, it definitely an
unorthodox way. But I mean, I'm glad now for
newer writers, you have so many more options for people and
viable options than we did even 14 years.
(13:12):
Ago, Yeah. It's amazing how it's all
changed. One more question that I wanted
to ask you. Just you mentioned your
background and I cook quite a similar background and something
that is a bit of a bugbear for me isn't pasta syndrome.
I always wondered whether you suffered from that too when you
were starting out. Oh my God, I still have it.
(13:33):
Never. Goes away, does it?
No, I mean, I'm sure for some people it does and I envy them,
but I feel like it never really goes away.
And I and I for me, I always thought before that the reason
why it never went away from me is because I didn't start like
everybody else. Not no, not everybody else, but
other people who were in my genre at where, you know, they
(13:54):
went the extreme traditional right out the gate.
And so I always thought, OK, that's why I have imposter
syndrome. But then I realized, yeah, that
doesn't go away. It's like it just, I think it.
But you know what? There's a part of me that's that
is OK with that because I feel like the moment because I do
feel like once you don't have imposter syndrome and you're
(14:16):
like, OK, I've made it. I feel like yeah, you're going
to jinx yourself number. One, it keeps driving you on,
doesn't it? Yeah.
Yeah. And I also, I think that like
once you think you've made it, you start to believe your own
height. And the moment you believe your
own height, it it's shit at thatpoint.
(14:37):
Like I feel like we probably allat somebody, you know, have read
something or watched ATV show where we're like, Oh yeah, you
know, like we can tell when someone's in love with their
writing, not so much in love with the story they're telling
kind of vibe. But like, so I feel like having
imposter syndrome keeps you fromfrom that happening.
So at least there's a positive spin.
(14:58):
Yeah, definitely. Tell us all about Bone of Blood
Mash. It's the last book in the series
is a bit of an emotional one writing.
Yeah, I think any blast book in a series is always, like,
bittersweet. I mean, at least for me, there's
always a point in writing every book where I'm so done with it
and I just want to kill all the characters and just, you know,
(15:22):
announce new characters halfway through and be like, spoiler,
everybody's dead, here's the newcharacters.
But you do like, when you work, as with book, you know, in that
world for so long, they do almost become real to you for a
while. And and it's even, but it's it's
not so much that case with this book because this series is the
(15:44):
prequel to the main series, the blood and Ash and the characters
that you see in the flesh and fire series, you will see again
in blood and ash. So I don't, it's not like I'm
saying goodbye to them yet, but that does make it more
complicated because you have twotimelines basically that you
(16:06):
have to keep straight. That is in almost the same world
in a way. And it makes it a little bit
more complicated. But it is the final book for
this series. And what it's basically doing is
in the Blood and ash world, you learn that there are gods that
(16:26):
the people in the Kingdom worship.
And I knew that there was like this story behind a lot of what
was told about the gods weren't true.
Like basically what happens in history to us, right?
Where you have all these versions told over so many
years, you really no longer knowwhat is the truth, but there may
be a kernel of truth in it. And when I was like, I think it
(16:50):
was like book two or, you know, book two or three of the Blood
and Ash series, I was like, I was having to kind of summarize
it in that book. And then I realized, OK, wait a
minute. Instead of me summarizing it
like I should maybe tell how this happened.
And, and that's where the flesh and fire series came from.
(17:13):
So you basically are are in thatseries, you're learning about
what some of the things that happened that made the world
that you see in blood and ash the the way that it is.
And, and, and so that's where the idea came.
So you get also, you know, there's a lot of questions from
both series that you they finally get answered in this
(17:36):
series. So you don't have to read the
blood and Ash series. This can be read ahead of that.
It probably is beneficial to youto do that, but it's it's
really, you know, kind of paves the way for the the next book in
Blood and Ash series too. Nice.
Like the continuity there. Yeah, Yeah, it's fun, isn't it?
(17:59):
Just like playing around with these series, are they different
time periods or these sorts of all quite close together?
No, they're, they're, you know, it's so funny.
I always have readers. They want to know the exact
amount of years, probably the month.
And I refuse to say it. And the only reason why is
because I will forget what I said.
(18:19):
And they will be somebody who ismuch smarter than me, who's
going to sit down, read these books and actually figure out
the year, the month, the day andthe time difference.
And it'll be completely incorrect from what I said.
So I always give like this range, but it's, I always say
it's about it. It's several hundred to 1000
years. Oh.
(18:40):
Nice. Because I kind of looked at,
looked at like in our history oflike you look at like, for
example, the Roman Empire, right?
Like how advanced that was compared to everything that came
after that and how many years had to pass before society
started to once again start doing what was done in the in
(19:03):
the in the empire then. So that was kind of how I
imagined would be have to be that amount of years would have
to pass. But it's good in a way because
it keeps the actual timelines different enough that I don't
get them confused. But it's like I have to remember
(19:23):
when I'm in the Blood and Ash world, there's certain things
that those characters wouldn't know, you know?
So it can get a little in that way.
Yeah, I suppose it's nice to plant a few seeds as well the
next series all the time. But did you have a favorite part
of this book without giving any spoilers away?
Yeah, there is there, there are.There are a couple scenes that I
(19:48):
knew that I would always write and I knew this when I wrote the
second or third book in Blood and Ash.
Like there's a scene in the third book of the Blood and Ash
series that you finally is something is mentioned and you
actually finally see it, what they're referencing.
And so I was, I always knew thatwas coming.
(20:09):
I was excited to write that. There is also some stuff that
happens in this book that I wouldn't say because it's going
to, it's going to make me sound demented.
If I said it was my favorite scene, but I I feel like they
are because they're powerful in in a way that anybody who has a
(20:30):
lot of power, they're not going to be, they're not going to
always be good and they're not going to always be able to make
the right decision. It doesn't mean that they're
bad, but that doesn't mean that like basically it, it's kind of
showing. I've always believed this, like
no one should have ultimate power.
Like it's, it's going like that's saying it will corrupt at
(20:52):
some point and or you will in your anger, you know, do
something that is just as terrible as what you're angry
with. And so there's some I knew that
I was going to finally get to that point in the series where
you you can understand how the people, you know, how they
(21:15):
decided that they should not have, like they should have.
I'm trying to describe this without spoilers.
So like, like basically you, yousee why certain decisions were
made about who has absolute power, because nobody, I don't
feel like can truly wield that appropriately.
(21:37):
Something's going to happen. And they were hard scenes to
write. Because I do think I feel like
one thing a lot of books do, whether they're fancy, right,
whether they're dealing with aliens or vampires or gods, they
kind of mirror real life things that happen.
And where it's like one of the themes in this book and in this
(21:57):
series is at what point does anger turn to vengeance?
And once it becomes that, are you any better than that, what
you are fighting against? And knowing that I was finally
getting to that point in writingit, It was my favorite part to
write, but it was also the hardest because I feel like you
(22:20):
can look to the world and see examples of that where there's
no good people here, like in this situation.
And it I think it makes even fantasy books just so realistic
because again, I feel like you can look to outside and see
examples of this kind of stuff. Yeah.
(22:40):
And do you think people can relate to these issues more when
they're told in the story formatthen sort of just delivered on
news channels? I do I because I feel like I
feel like it's the same reason why comedians can sometimes can
say things that you're like, what, wait, what?
(23:03):
That if you heard said anyplace else that you wouldn't want to
listen to it. But if they can get you to laugh
at the same, and then it's like you don't realize that, yeah,
they're telling you something and you're laughing.
And and then hopefully, you know, once you think about it,
you start to realize, I think it's the same reason because it
doesn't feel like it's being shoved down your throat.
(23:24):
It doesn't feel like someone is,you know, on a moral high ground
trying to tell you, well, you'rewrong or they're wrong.
You're able to actually kind of watch it without feeling judged
or confused or whatever. You can read it.
And I, I do think, I mean, I've had, there's been examples I can
(23:44):
even think of in my older books where certain things would
happen. And it's like people would, you
know, you could see that it would be heavily close to like
immigration, where if you have aproblem with aliens being
rounded up, but you don't have aproblem with people in real life
having that same thing done to them, like where, you know, it
(24:05):
can make you sometimes stop and think, right?
Like, and when I say aliens, I mean aliens from space, not an
immigrant. So, but yeah, so I, I do think
it makes it easier for people because also, I think we forget
because of the Internet that people live in these very small
(24:26):
enclaves where they don't have the same experience as another
person. They don't have the ability to
meet different people or experience different lives.
And I think when they're reading, it does sometimes
expose people to different cultures, different beliefs,
different backgrounds. And people do learn that way,
especially when you get into more contemporary side of books,
(24:49):
but even in the fantasies. Do you feel like it's important
to include them kind of things in your stories?
I mean, I, you know, I think forme personally, it's not
something I go in intentionally writing.
Like I don't go in like I'm going to try to sneak a message
in here, you know, underneath people's nose.
(25:09):
But I think like when you deal with a fantasy book, for
example, you and you know, there's only, there's only so
many ways fantasy books are written, right?
Like they kind of have almost the same overarching plot of
there's sometimes kingdoms, there's there's the good people,
there's the bad people. And I feel like for me and like
(25:30):
many other fantasy writers, you actually look at history to kind
of shape how you tell it. And by doing that then you are,
you end up because history does repeat itself.
It seems like even if we know better, history will repeat,
seems to repeat itself, that yousometimes do find things
mirroring what's happening in the world around you.
(25:52):
And it's not always intentional,but I do think it does make it
more realistic because you can see like, again, you could be
dealing with any type of, you know, being that doesn't exist
in the real world, but they're facing the same problems.
Yeah. And I love it.
I just think it's so, so liberating to take what we see
(26:15):
in our world and and shape it inunique ways and ways that people
can relate to probably a lot more than when they say it.
And I suppose through the culture, sometimes we have to
that's how we reach people is through like cultural medium
songs, Bob Dylan, for example, like the amount of messages he
(26:39):
passed on through his songs. And I don't know, I think it's
it's brilliant that you're doingit.
And I think a lot more writers should consider not obviously
over it down your throat, but ifit's if it's there and the
opportunity is there and. Again, I think that like I feel
like it certain books, especially fantasy, I just don't
(27:01):
even see how that you couldn't find that in those books, right?
Like I feel like you're going tofind it because most of them are
inspired by even ones that have like the buffet running around
or Dragons. They have things that are
happening in there that happenedin our, you know, in our
history. And so I feel like you, you just
(27:24):
have it in there whether or not the author realizes they're
doing it. But again, I feel like the thing
for me with importance is fantasy.
When I'm reading it, I still want to believe it.
Like when I'm reading it, I got to believe it like you can, you
can tell me any line of bullshit.
I just got to believe it, right?I have to believe this story.
And like, I think one of the ways you do that is when you're
(27:47):
able to relate to that, like you're able to relate to certain
events, you know, not just the characters, but certain events
that are happening. Once you're able to relate to
all of that, it becomes so much more real to you as the reader.
And I think that's when you do start to get readers really
invested in the world itself andnot just the characters.
(28:08):
Yeah, I think that's that's stick with the the whale
building side because it's a massive topic in the world of
fantasy, isn't it? I mean this most distinguishing
feature. And so you're Wells very sort of
highly spoken of. How do you approach the creation
(28:29):
process? You know, strangely I got the so
I have written in every genre atthis point, like everything is
set for like religious or inspirational or historical.
I've written a lot of genres andI always wanted to write
fantasy, but I was very intimidated, intimidated by it
because you have you don't have like because you know, in every
(28:51):
other, you know, novel, most of them you the world are exists.
It's, you don't have to explain to people like how communication
happens or like you don't have, you know, you don't have to
explain or acknowledge the building, right?
Because you can just say a skyscraper and throw some
adjectives in there and people know what you're talking about
(29:13):
In fantasy. You didn't have to research what
could they built this building of if they didn't have this?
And then five hours later, you're pretty confident you
could build a freaking building.So like you have to, the world
becomes a character in a way, like it becomes its own living,
breathing thing. And I feel like that is what
(29:33):
took me the longest. I, I actually got the idea for
Blood and Ash while watching the2016 Olympics.
It has literally nothing to do with the Olympics at all.
I don't know why I did the idea.I was watching probably the the
gymnastics portion of it, and I just started.
I've always been a huge fan of Greek mythology, so I'm just
(29:55):
going to say it was that like the Greek aspect of it.
But I literally took me from 2016 to 2019 of fleshing out the
world because I was so nervous because again, I never wrote a
fantasy or high fantasy, I guessis what they would call it.
(30:19):
And it it just, I feel like I had to take my time and I had to
really flesh out this world. But yeah, it's it's, I think
it's as important as the characters because again, the
world can have Dragons, it can have witches, it can have
vampires, it can have shifters, it can have whatever.
It has to be believable and you know, when you write fantasy,
(30:40):
you have to create rules and then you have to stick to those
rules that you've created. So it it takes, I feel like it,
it's a lot building that. Is that one of the key things
you think to making it believable is the creation of
the rules and and sticking to them?
Yeah, I think I, I think the, the, I think the having like
(31:02):
guidelines, right? Like that because we, we like,
we have certain things we know we can't do in the in our world
and having that makes it OK. This isn't just a magical world.
But I do think what makes it more believable is the
characters and also like what the world, what is, what is the
part of that world, like society, things like that.
(31:24):
I think that's what makes it more believable to people is
because they can still like see themselves in that, as that
character in that world and the world makes sense to them.
Yeah, Nice. Excellent.
Well, building steps. I think that's one of the best
I've had though, is to treat theworld like a character.
I think that's really good. Yeah, actually.
(31:45):
The world changes. I have character words.
Yep. And it's, and I feel like with
fantasy, it's yeah, I feel like you have to because again, you
don't have the actual real worldto lean back.
And it it's it, it almost, it has, it has to come off the page
like that world. People have to be able to
picture it. Because when you are writing a
(32:06):
contemporary, you can, like I said, you can say a skyscraper.
People know what you're talking about.
They so they if you're a person who visualizes what you're
reading, they're able to do that.
But in fantasy, you really have to find out ways to describe
things in a way that isn't obvious what you're doing.
Yeah. So that people can visualize the
(32:26):
story as they're reading. What would you do do?
Would you like pick out certain details that give you enough to
form the image or would you go into quite a lot of detail about
things? You know, I would go into enough
detail. So, so basically when I'm
writing, I have to be able to see it in my head.
It has to play like a movie or ATV show in my head.
(32:49):
And if I can't, that means something's wrong with what I'm
writing. So if I'm writing it and I can
see it as I'm writing it, then Iknow I've given enough detail.
I try not to harp on the detail.Like I don't want like an entire
paragraph that's just explaininga forest, like, you know what I
(33:09):
mean? Unless there's something
important about that forest like, but I, I feel like if I'm
writing it and I'm seeing it, then I've got the detail.
But I do feel like that's different for every writer.
But I feel like as you, the writer, you have to be able to
at least visualize it to some extent.
But I do understand some people,which we all learned on the
(33:32):
Internet not too many years ago that some people don't see what
they read. So which is I'm one of those
people who do. And I never knew that there was
people that didn't. So I don't, I don't know about
you. Yeah, no, I'm same as you.
I, I, there was, I think there'sanother thing recently about
people. You have a sort of monologue in
the head and some people don't. Yeah, I was like.
(33:53):
But The thing is, I don't think they.
Understand what it'd be like to just be quiet, No.
No, no, because you ask them, I don't think they understand what
an inner monologue is. Because when you ask them, then
what do you hear? And they're like, my thoughts.
And I'm like, what do you think an inner monologue is?
It's your thoughts like. So I guess what they may be
thinking is that their, their thoughts don't have a voice that
(34:16):
they, you know what I mean? Doesn't have a voice, but I'm
like, ours has a voice like, youknow what I mean?
We just I, I, I think. It's the empty.
Right. Yeah, like.
What we see see in the the riotsin this country at the moment,
you, you makes you wonder. Yeah.
Well, yeah, So you maybe that isthe case.
There is a part of me sometimes that thinks, man, it would be
like kind of amazing just for a day if my head was completely
(34:39):
silent. It's like just.
But I feel like that leads to other problems down the road I
think. I'll enjoy it.
I do. I feel scared.
Yeah, I feel like the silence, you know, that's one thing in
this book, the character Sarah, Tina, she has, it was really
important to me to have like, even though she becomes a very
(35:02):
powerful person to have that this character has struggles
that we can identify with. And so she, she has anxiety
really bad. And, and for her, like when her
head's quiet is when it's the worst, like when she's not
focused on something, not doing something.
And when her head goes quiet, then that's when you know, it's
(35:26):
like if anybody's had anxiety, that's when you start paying
attention to the stupidest things.
Like you start noticing your heart rate and then you start
noticing your breathing. And if you're like me, then
you're like, well, why? How do I breathe?
Like, you know, you start falling down these weird mental
rabbit holes. And, you know, with her, it's
(35:47):
the silence is the worst. It's because that that allows
you to really think about thingsyou don't necessarily want to
think about. So yeah, I don't think, now that
I think about it, probably having a quiet mind doesn't stay
that way very long. Yeah, so it's like our
characters. Obviously writing a series, the
(36:11):
characters play a huge role in keeping readers with with the
books. So how do you approach the
creation of your characters? I think for me, it's like when
I, when anytime I start a book, there will be usually 2
characters that will immediatelycome to mind.
And I, you know, I, I know who they are in my head, like I,
(36:35):
what they're purposes, what someof their journey will be.
And then for me, how I write, like I have that basic
foundation that like with, with Serafina, she is someone who was
supposed to save her Kingdom butfailed, you know, even though it
really wasn't something she had control over it.
(36:57):
And so I knew that she had like this guilt and, you know, kind
of felt like people, you know, always thought about this when
they saw her. And she was also knew that she
wouldn't be known to many peoplebecause it was kind of like she
was hidden away as this, this failure.
And I knew that as I was starting to write it.
(37:20):
But then with characters I, I'velearned that no matter what you
may intend the journey to be, sometimes the story changes like
as you're writing it, the story sometimes can go into other
directions that then changes howthe characters developments
going to be. But I always have a general idea
(37:41):
of like one to two characters. And then once I start writing
like the secondary characters and other main characters start
to come up from when I'm writing.
Yeah, it's, it's amazing. How do these shape stories,
isn't it? And you go in through and then
you realize that this doesn't work.
So yeah. And, you know, and The thing is
(38:02):
like, I want to say that I have learned to let it go.
Like when it happens, like, you know, just let it go because it,
you're this story's telling you that what you originally planned
no longer works. I'm here to tell you, I've
written, I think 70 books. I have not learned this.
(38:22):
I I still fight it. What was your favorite genre?
You've written So many I know, probably most well known for the
romance the last few years, but what is your favorite genre?
You know, I think my favorite genre is probably the fantasy
(38:44):
and paranormal genres because they are a truth.
Like especially fantasy, it's, it's true escapism.
And I know a lot of readers readthose for that reason, but it
also, I think, you know, these authors forget that also gives
us that same thing where it's escapism.
And I think it's just something,and I think part of it too,
(39:05):
again, is I was always, always obsessed with like mythology,
Norse mythology, things like that.
And it's, you know, and fantasy just really reminds me of like
these stories that people at onetime really believe and you
know, and you, and then it again, like with my, the way my
head works, like a lot of writers, we just then we, we, we
(39:27):
always, we say something normal,but our thought doesn't end
there. So like they like, but what if
they were real? And so, and it's, I, I feel like
that's why, you know, my love for mythology grew into the love
of the paranormal and fantasy because again, you see a lot of
those roots in that in differentmythologies throughout the
(39:51):
entire world. You can see a lot of the
fantasies and even science fiction come from a lot of that.
And do you particularly enjoy a young adult audience?
Is that your sort of target audience do you think?
Not for these books. So these books are definitely
adults, but we, I do, there are younger readers who read them.
(40:11):
And when I wrote young adults, honestly, like they have like
these age guidelines. But really as a reader, you know
what you're ready for as a reader, typically, because when
I do write in adults and I go tolike young adult events, like
you can tell like readers who are like the, the middle teenage
years, like 1516, one of them isgoing to be, is going to seem so
(40:35):
much older than the one standingnext to them.
And so I feel like readers, theyknow what they're ready for.
But like, for example, if any ofthese books ended up in a young
adult library section, I'd be like, Oh my God, this may not be
great for them, but I started off writing an adult.
(40:58):
So it's always like, you know, my, you know, I feel like it's,
I haven't written an adult book in a while, but I feel like, I
don't want to say it's like going home because that sounds
cheesy, but it's, it's like, OK,that's how I got started was
writing an adult and I, and I want to write it again.
But, and I think with young adults, the reason why I think
(41:21):
people like to write it and readers love to read it is
because no matter what type of genre you're writing in, you
have people experiencing their firsts of everything, like first
loss, first heartache, first love, first lust, first
whatever. And I feel like that is
something people, even if it's sad, they sometimes want to
relive, like what it felt like before.
(41:44):
Yeah, you've experienced certain.
Things. No, let me get that first once.
Yeah. Awesome.
I've got one more question for you, Jeff.
What is the most important or the best piece of advice you've
got for any writers, aspiring writers out there?
You know, I think the best advice that I could give is, you
(42:07):
know, and this is something thatother people have said and, and
that's how I heard it. And it's going to sound so
simple is write what you like toread.
And again, people are probably are listening to this like,
well, no shit. However, that you forget that.
(42:27):
And especially as you progress in your writing career, you're
going to feel pressure whether you're with a publisher or not,
you're going to see what's selling and you're going to see
what everybody's talking about. You're going to see what's
trending out there. And sometimes if you're with a
publisher or an agent, they willsay, hey, have you ever thought
(42:49):
about writing XYZ? That's what everybody wants
right now. And or even without a publisher,
you can, you can look at and seelike what's ranked in the top
100 of Amazon. And you, you know, I need to be
writing this, which is fine if that is something you genuinely
want to write. And if you find yourself writing
(43:13):
in a genre that you do not read,it's not going to end well for
you. And because what's going to
either happen is you're going to, you're going to end up
hating, right? And you're going to hate the
process and, and it may not evenbe good because you don't know
the genre and you're not happy writing.
(43:33):
And I feel like at some point ina lot, a lot of authors, I was
there where a publisher wanted me to write something that I was
like, you know, I don't know, like it's just not my thing.
And because I don't write like what you what I would call
serious contemporary, like whereit, it's more of a literary kind
(43:56):
of thought to it. It's not my thing.
But like I, my publisher really,really was pushing for it and I
did it. But like, it was, it was, it was
so hard. I mean, it was to the point
where like, I was like, I don't even know why I'm doing this
right now. Like, you know, and I, I feel
like you do run the risk of getting real burnt out.
(44:18):
Like because, and again, I, I feel like we all some point find
ourselves there. And I found out where I saw that
somebody saying it, where they said, read what you want to
write. And it was something that I had
to remind myself that even if what I'm writing right now isn't
what's trending, it doesn't matter because trends always go
(44:39):
in a circle and they're always going to be readers there
reading what you're writing. And I, I think it's something we
forget. So it, it's the best sounds
super simple, but it's somethingwe forget.
Like as your career goes on. That's a very pleased advice.
Oh well, Jennifer, thank you very much again for giving us
time, your very busy schedule tochat with me.
(45:01):
I know a lot of people listening.
I'm going to find this is a veryuseful and insightful chat.
So thank you and congratulationsagain on the book.
I have no doubt it's going to beanother role in success.
And everyone listening at home, go out and buy a coffee to make
sure that happens. The links in the description.
Jennifer, where's the best placeto find out a bit more about you
and to maybe stay in touch and have you got a newsletter and
(45:23):
stuff people can subscribe to? Yes, if you go to my website,
itsjenniferarmantrout.com, you can sign up for the newsletter
there. Usually I'm on Instagram and
that's pretty much really, otherthan a reader group on Facebook,
I'm not really on any other social media site.
I feel like I've passed the age of learning how to use those
(45:47):
appropriately. So, but yeah, if you go to my
website, you can find links to where you can actually interact
with me and sign up for the newsletter.
Awesome. Thank you very much again.
It's an absolute pleasure and thank you everyone for
listening.
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