Are you repeating the same writing mistakes without realising it? In this episode, writing coach and author Suzy Vadori reveals the biggest errors she sees in authors, and how to avoid them.
Join Richie Billing and Suzy Vadori as they explore Suzy’s journey from businesswoman to bestselling YA fantasy author and coach.
We dive into her unique approach to character creation, immersive world-building, and the crucial missteps that hold writers back.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
Why so many authors struggle with character arcs and how to fix them.
Practical world-building strategies that bring your setting to life without slowing the story.
The top three mistakes authors make when switching from business mindset to creative craft.
How Suzy’s coaching practice and author experience provide clarity, structure and growth.
How to build your author brand and writing career from the ground up.
Whether you’re working on your first novel or deep into your series, you’ll walk away with actionable advice.
✍️ More from Suzy Vadori:
Website: https://suzyvadori.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/suzyvadori/?hl=en
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/suzyvadoriauthor/
✍️ Join our community & writing tools:
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/TheFantasyWritersToolshed
Website and writing classes: https://richiebilling.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Fantasy Writers
Tool Shed. I'm your host, Richie Belling,
and today I'm delighted to be joined by the brilliant YA
author, editor and writing coach, Susie Vidori.
Susie, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me Richie.
It's so great to be here. Well, thank you very much for
joining me. It's great to have you here,
(00:31):
number one. And we had a really great chat
last week, didn't we #2 on your own podcast.
We did. You're going to be on my podcast
as well. I love, love, love.
My audience is going to love your take on fantasy writing, so
it's fun to be here too. So listeners will soon discover
that we are, we both love channel writing.
(00:53):
When there's four, I think that's fair to say definitely.
And why not do it again? But I think with your skills and
expertise as a as a writing coach, obviously a very talented
and widely read author, there's always lots to learn.
So I always like to begin at thebegin.
(01:17):
I think that's some people like to dive in media res, but I
think I like to see people's journeys.
So do you mind telling us about your how you got into writing
and what your journey through the writing world has been like?
Absolutely. I love the M Media Res reference
with my people. We can throw those things out
there. Yeah.
(01:37):
I mean, how did I get started out as a writer?
I just always knew I was going to write a book.
And when I talk to people, they often say something similar when
you feel called to write a book,that you just always knew that
you were a writer. And you might not have skills to
do it at the time. But it was just one of those
things that I always knew that Iwould be a writer.
And I wrote a lot of half books as a teenager, which means, I
(01:58):
mean, I moved a lot. This is before the Internet,
before the cloud. So I lost a notebook or I, you
know, I had a computer that caught fire.
That's the story I love to tell when I tour in schools.
And and so you lose them. And but as an adult, I was just
like, I'm going to write a book one day.
I didn't know what it was going to be, to be honest.
(02:19):
And I was grappling with that because I was a business
executive and, you know, people worry about this.
And I, you know, I, I never laugh at anybody who thinks, oh,
goodness, what's gonna happen when I hit it big time and it
doesn't work out with my other persona.
You know, very few of us ever have to worry about that.
But that's what you think, right?
And so I was like, well, I don'twant to write something racy
(02:41):
because, like, it doesn't fit. And I have kids and all the
things, right? And they don't want to do
something too controversial. I don't want to do something,
you know, like I just had all these negative thoughts around
what I didn't want to do. And then at some point, YA
became really big, and I could see that I could write something
for a wide audience. I could write something with
(03:02):
really relevant human ideas thatI wanted to portray, and I could
still keep my job as an executive.
Now, that didn't last long because writing took over and
it's not something that happens for everybody.
And it wasn't something that I planned.
I thought I was going to write books on the side, and then it
kind of became my life and my job and where I was comfortable
(03:25):
and where I was, you know, thriving.
And yeah, I like to say writing a book, you don't know what's
going to happen. If you'd have told me a decade
ago that I was going to be a book coach and be on podcast
talking and this would be my job, I would have thought you
were nuts. Like I was a business executive.
That was my identity. And so it was a really
(03:47):
interesting path. But it's gonna open doors.
Those of you who are just starting out, you're writing
your books is going to open doors.
You don't know what they're going to be.
You can't control it, but it will change your life.
It will change your path. Yeah, it's like a battle for how
long you can resist. Yeah, right.
(04:08):
Yeah. I just think.
Yeah, I was just going to say it's a battle for how long you
can resist and how closely your author persona matches your,
your real humanity or your real self.
I think, you know, as a businessexecutive, I was great at my
job. I was made a lot of money for
the companies that I worked with.
And just at some level I was always sort of working for
(04:33):
somebody else and doing somebodyelse's dream.
And writing is a whole differentthing.
It's it's a whole different level of being a human.
And I'm grateful for that. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah. It's interesting that you say
that like we do spend a lot of our time making other people
rich and it's, it is a brilliantthing because writing is is all
(04:57):
for you. Well, it's for the reader as
well, but. It's for the readers, and in
this case, I also help other writers.
You know, as a book coach, I help an editor.
I help other writers as well figure out their potential as a
writer, which is a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah.
So what, what made you sort of lean into YA?
(05:18):
What was what is it about young adult fiction that sort of draws
you to order? Love the pace, it's fast-paced,
but also at the time I really wanted to write and they didn't
necessarily want to only write YA fiction, but I wanted to
write something that my kids could read.
(05:39):
I wrote the Found to my first book, the first draft on
maternity leave with my third child and she's 14 now.
So, you know, they're kind of past that sort of tween and
middle grade. And my oldest is 19, it doesn't
read that much anymore at all because she's off at university
and and doesn't have time. But yeah, really just I, I
(06:00):
wanted to write something that was all-encompassing that I
could do in my spare time. And fantasy, I mean, really my
favorite, I think we had this discussion last week as well.
But my favorite genres to read are historical fiction.
But I don't enjoy doing the research.
And when I write, I don't want to be encumbered by all the work
that comes with that because because I have such a busy other
(06:24):
sort of part of my brain that works on other things.
And so fantasy is amazing because I get to make it all up
and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's if
it's true or not, right? Definitely, yeah, as well as the
best things you you've always got that get out of jail free
card if you ever need. Exactly, get out of jail free
(06:44):
card where you know magic can solve it.
Magic can you know? You can always introduce new
levels of it, or your magic can change.
I could talk about magic systemsall day long, sometimes I do.
Yeah, I suppose for YA, it's oneof the big appeals, I imagine.
Is that one of the key sort of elements that you need in AYA
book? Well, I mean, not necessarily
(07:08):
like you don't need to have fantasy.
There's definitely contemporary YA and actually in 2020, YE was
a little bit slow. Like YE fantasy was a little bit
slow because they purchased a lot.
The publishing had purchased traditional publishing and
purchased a lot. And so my agent was saying, Hey,
let's do something contemporary just for now.
And so I wrote this, I think I shared this story with you
(07:30):
before, but I wrote this, I wrote this contemporary novel.
And then all of a sudden, you know, a couple of 10 pages in, I
was like called up my agent and I'm like, so writing, it's
contemporary, it's teens, they're doing the things.
And then all of a sudden phantompirate ship shows up on the
(07:51):
horizon. And it's see.
And my agent was like, all right, I see where this is
going. I'm like, I tried, man.
I I can't do it. I tried.
I can't, I can't write contemporary.
I just love it so much. It's like, it's like the fantasy
piece of it is just so much fun.And writing fiction is just such
a pleasure, pleasure, such a joy.
(08:13):
When I'm writing first drafts, Iget out of my house, which is
where I edit everybody else's work in my office here.
And I get out of my house, I make the day of it.
I have make it fun. Sometimes I ride outside under a
tree. I love being near water.
I ride at a pub somewhere that I'm just really happy.
And it feels absolutely ridiculous that it's my job
(08:35):
because it is such such a great profession.
Nice. So it sounds like, yeah, you've
got a very, very a process that you like and, you know, works
for you. And I always think that's one of
the most important things you need to learn when you get into
writing. This is how you work and
(08:55):
understand them, what you need to do to get the most out of the
time, the writing time that you do have.
So did it take you a while to sort of learn about your own
writing preferences? And my goodness, so long,
Richie, a child. I don't know how long we have on
this podcast today. Yeah.
I mean, I think that's what led me to becoming a book coach and
(09:18):
an editor in the 1st place was because it took me so long to
learn. I mean, I was always, I like to
say that my only skill. I mean, I did some really cool
jobs and I've worked in every department in huge companies and
in small companies. And if you look at my resume, it
doesn't always make sense. But what you can see is I got
promoted and I got promoted and I got promoted.
And there's progression. And they moved within companies
(09:41):
and they would say like, put me in the biggest mess.
I don't care if that's in finance or products or marketing
or sales or wherever. Wherever you need something
figured out, That's where I liketo be because I could figure out
the big picture of it and get itgoing.
So, but I like to say that my only skill and the reason I
could move so fluidly and all these opportunities opened up
(10:03):
for me around the world that I got to work was because I can
communicate. So my skill set was
communication and being able to take a really complex idea and
break it down into something that made sense to other people.
And that's needed in business. It's also needed in writing.
And the fact that I couldn't do that right away, you know, I
thought I'd be instantly good ata lot of us think this coming
(10:25):
from a different industry. Oh, you know, I thought I'd be
instantly good at writing books,and I wasn't.
And I had to, you know, really work at that.
I thought I could just write down during nap time and write
this book. And I knew that what was coming
out on the page was not up to snuff with what I was writing,
but I didn't know how to fix it.And so I spent, you know, years
(10:47):
studying and trying to figure out what are those things?
And I found it really frustrating in the writing
community because many people were helpful.
By the way, I, I didn't find I was expecting to get shut down.
And people were great, but it was a lot of you're almost
there, keep going. You've got this and not a lot
(11:08):
of, hey, specifically what you're doing is so cliche
because it's actually the easiest way to set up a scene.
Why don't you try this, Right? Which is the way that I teach
now. So I didn't get a lot of that.
And I had to figure a lot of that out on my own just from
trial and error and figuring outwhat, you know, getting 10
opinions and figuring out what'sthe common ground and what,
what's going to fix this. And so I started putting
(11:30):
together these little Nuggets and, and yeah, it, it took me a
long time to figure out how to write, but I've got it now.
Yeah, I think a lot of people dogo into it with the attitude
that you mentioned there, that you because they've might be
successful in something else. The Do you think the skills
translate? I mean, I was a lawyer and I
(11:52):
could invite legal stuff, OK, But I soon realized that I
couldn't really write fiction. And you do You do have to study
and you have to learn. You have to put the hours in and
it you've got to be really patient because it does take
time. And I always like to have the
(12:12):
mindset that you can always write something better tomorrow
than what you did today. And then that way you're always
looking to get better and you'renever satisfied.
And I'm always scared of being satisfied because then I'll be
complacent and. Yeah, I mean, if you then back
to my varied resume, I was always looking for that next
(12:35):
challenge. And I think a decade into
writing, I'm challenged each andevery day and I can think of a
million things that I'd like to try in my next book to make it
more complicated to challenge myself to learn something new.
I honestly don't think to get bored of editing other people's
work is such a gift to me because it's amazing.
(12:55):
Like I, I read the like I, I need to give myself enough time.
I'm actually very fast in terms of an editor.
It's kind of a joke in my community because they're like,
wow, Susie, like you are intense.
You get a lot done. And, and part of that is also
like really great when I send things out and don't know when
it's coming back, It's very anxiety juicing.
(13:17):
And so I like to give a deadline, and I need a deadline
myself. Yeah, it's very complex.
And, you know, No2 manuscripts need.
Yes, there's lots of things thatare common.
And that's what I base my courses on is like, here's the,
you know, the top 10 things thatevery writer comes to me needs
to learn. You can find those in my
courses. But when I do it personally, I
(13:39):
take it very personally. And I try to figure out, OK,
well, in this case, this part ofyour book isn't working yet.
Here's some suggestions. You don't have to take my
suggestions, but here's three ways you could fix it.
Let's talk about it and figure out which one of these or
something completely different is going to fix it.
But here's the problem. Here's why it's not going to
land with readers. Here's, you know, some
(14:02):
suggestions to fix it. And then we we work through
those problems that way. I don't think I'm ever going to
get bored because every single book and everybody's brains work
differently. And so it's an amazing challenge
that I love. Yeah, definitely.
I mean, so some people listeningwho may have heard of writing
coaches, but they don't really understand what they do or what
(14:24):
benefits they can offer. So do you mind telling them
giving us like a sort of a bit of an overview of, of the role
of a coaching and, and the benefits that you've seen your
students sort of reap as as they've gone through the
process? Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, they're most people are more familiar with editing and I
(14:44):
do developmental editing as well, which is looking at the
whole book and then providing suggestions or, or reacting
basically like a really, you know, a really highly skilled
beta reader who can't just tell you, you know, that they did
like something or didn't like something.
But the wise, right, this didn'tland because of this way that
you've structured it. And This is why it's not
(15:05):
working, you know, and how to fix it.
That's all the things in developmental editing.
Coaching can work from the very beginning of the process or it
can come in at the end coaching.Like think of it as a personal
trainer for your for your writing life.
I mean, we can all buy a gym membership and go to the gym.
We don't always know what to do when we get there.
(15:27):
We're not always motivated to doit.
But coaching is a similar phenomenon.
You could take my courses, but if you want that Cadillac
experience and somebody to driveyou every single day and to read
everything that you write and togive that push and pull and to
teach you in that one-on-one setting versus a group program,
I've got lots of group programs.Then that's what a book coach
(15:49):
does. So we do three things as that
personal trainer for your writing life.
There's motivation, right? Motivation and deadlines and
that accountability in the project management and so that
you're not like, OK, well, when is this project and you know,
when is this book going to be done?
It's like, OK, well, here's how you write and here's what's
possible so that we have some deadlines that you can set to,
(16:13):
but then also the writing craft.It's it's a one-on-one coach and
you can learn from the ground upwhat your particular style and
how your voice is gonna be the best it can be on the page.
And then the third thing is emotional support because we
have days. We all have days.
And writing a book is not for the faint of heart.
(16:35):
And sometimes all you need is tobe able to tell somebody, hey,
this week was really hard For these reasons.
And, you know, I'm always there for that because we're humans.
Again, I think writing is the closest thing that we can to
sort of defining our humanity and getting that down and
(16:55):
sharing that with the world is scary, so.
Yeah, and we do it alone, don't we?
Most of the time anyway. And I think when I've seen
writers in our writing community, when they've got the
confidence in like gathered enough confidence to reach out
(17:15):
and then start forming like critique groups or doing beta
read swaps and stuff like that, that's when you see them start
to really get better. And so I always feel like it is
worthwhile working with other people when you feel ready to do
that. But I think a lot of people the
(17:36):
you may not feel comfortable working with other writers and
feeling like you might feel too self-conscious, for example.
So I know when that there's someone else out there like an
editor or a coach, you can really sort of give you the
feedback that you need. I think that's really valuable
and it's worth knowing about because a lot of people, they
(17:59):
just, they don't even know that that kind of service is out
there. It's pretty new, honestly.
You know, a decade ago or two decades ago, this, this job
didn't exist because this was something that publishing houses
would take on. They, you know, you could pitch
them a promising, A promising story or send them a sample and
then agents or publishers would work with you to finish that.
(18:22):
That isn't the case anymore. And a lot of times people will
come to me and say, well, do youknow, do I need to pay for a
developmental edit? Because isn't my editor going to
do that for me once I get a traditional contract?
The truth is you're not going toget a traditional contract these
days unless you've already had it edited, right?
Because they expect it to be as polished as can be, and they do
(18:44):
not have the time to work with every writer and help them come
along. So, yeah, so it's a bit of a
newer position that fills that gap.
Yeah, I like you say, it gives people structure and direction
when they feel like they're lacking it.
So I think it's a, it's really good, good idea.
I mean what? I was going to say, I was at a
(19:05):
conference this weekend and somebody said something and I'm
still trying to work on it, but I'll test it out here with you.
And it was something like, it isscary to share your writing.
And as long as you haven't haven't shared it, it's sort of
in that limbo, like that limbo where writing limbo where you
think it might be good, but you don't know and you're never
(19:27):
going to know if you never shareit, right.
And it's like, I think of the Schrodinger's cat, right?
Like the the cat in the box. And as long as you don't open
the box, you don't know if the cat is alive or dead, right?
Like, and so they're kind of both things at once.
And it's the same as your writing.
If you're not, you know, if you can, if you could find great
critique partners, amazing, you know, you don't necessarily have
(19:49):
to pay for these things. But at the same time, I've also
met many people who got ripped to shreds by a critique partner
and didn't write for 10 years, right?
So we've got to be careful aboutwho we're sharing that with and,
and who we're asking for help because sometimes it's not a
great situation, right? So there's a, there's a trust
(20:11):
level as well. But yeah, if you never share
your writing, it might be brilliant, but it might not be.
And you're never going to know until you share it.
So when I read stories, one thing, well, the main thing that
I'm drawn to is the characters. So I was wondering what advice
you have for any writers out there who are looking to create
(20:32):
lifelike characters and what kind of mistakes that you've
seen people make in regards to characters over the years.
Yeah. I mean, certainly, OK, so we're
kind of two, I could talk about this all day or two.
I'm going to try to be succinct with regards to characters.
Just know that in a novel length, I I coach books.
(20:52):
And so if you're writing short story or other things, this may
not apply. But in a novel length book, you
need a lot, right? You're going to spend a lot of
time with this character. So pick somebody that you're
fascinated by because if you pick something that you're not
interested in, you're going to get very bored.
You can do sort of a simpler character if you're doing a a
(21:14):
shorter story because you don't have time to delve into all the
things. But definitely you want your
characters to be flawed. But the number one advice that I
would give people and the numberone thing that people get get,
I'm going to say get wrong but or have struggle with.
And even after we work on it, it's a really hard thing is in
the novel. What I see, and I said this
(21:35):
earlier, you know, when it with my own writing, some things
become cliche. And they're not cliche because
they're overdone or because you're copying it.
They're cliche because they're the easiest thing or the most
natural thing in the world. And all writers come to that
same conclusion naturally if they haven't learned otherwise.
And so it does get overdone. And that's why things become
(21:56):
cliche. What happens with characters is
often times, especially in YA, but in other genres as well, and
for adults, is we have a character and when I ask them,
you know, what they want in life, they want to do the right
thing. Is the answer right?
They want to do the right thing.And I've got to tell you that
(22:18):
that might be true in real life,that we just want to do the
right thing and we're altruisticand all those other things.
It doesn't make for a good main character because it's boring,
right? It's boring and it's cliche.
If you just say that my character wants to do this thing
and save the world because it's the right thing to do.
(22:39):
I got to tell you, nobody's going to, nobody's going to read
that book. So if that's your answer, you
got to dig deeper because you'vegot to figure out what is the
deeply personal reason why your character will go above and
beyond what any normal person would do in order to save the
world, right? Or to do whatever it is that
(23:00):
they want to do. And that's the number one issue
that I see with their writing. Once you solve that and you give
them a deeply personal reason, you know, if if the world is at
risk, they personally will die. Even framing it that way and say
I'm trying to save my own skin is way more interesting than
just I think it's the right thing to do.
(23:23):
So challenge yourselves on that.If that's your answer, you got
to dig deeper. It's not wrong and good for you
that you want to save the world or that your character wants to,
but I can tell you it is not enough to carry a book.
It's boring. Yeah, how, how is your?
Is there any sort of ways or checks that you have to that
writers can use to see if a story is a little bit too dull
(23:46):
or flat? Dollar flat.
Well, I mean, if we there's a million, yes, there's a million,
but just keeping going on the character side, I think you just
need to check in on their agency, right.
So agency is the concept that they want something and they
have a reason for it. So it's all kind of related.
(24:08):
So if we know what their deeply personal reason is for wanting
to go above and beyond what any normal person would do to get,
you know, this, this thing done that they're trying to do, and
we know what they want, all of asudden that gives your character
many, many things to do, right. And so these days, we're writing
much more, especially in genre fiction, in fantasy, we're
(24:29):
writing much more from a deep perspective.
And you want to color everything, everything with your
character's perspective, right? We're not some narrator pulled
way back that you might have seen in books 30 years ago.
That's describing stuff from 1000.
Foot viewer, Spider Man up on the wall looking down.
We're a person moving through the world and we notice things
(24:53):
that we will notice. Same thing is true for agency.
If you know why they're doing, like if you know what they want
in a scene, that gives them stuff to do, right?
So that they're not just standing there observing what's
happening. They're in there trying to get
that done, whatever it is that they want, right?
And so if you've got that, then you'll find that you have lots
(25:15):
of things, stuff for your characters to do.
If they're doing nothing and they'd just be standing there,
you've got an agency problem. Sounds great.
No, it's a brilliant way to sortof understand the character
because like you say, it's, it's, it's not just like one
thing you've got to think about.You've got to think about all
(25:36):
these different elements to makeit all so convincing and
engaging. Like you've got to basically
make the reader believe that everything is that is happening
is valid and justified. Like you're saying it is hard to
do with characters because people like say, go down easy
routes and they don't really delve deeper into what is moving
(25:58):
that person emotionally. And that is like everything we
do is emotional. Like we have emotional responses
to everything and it's only themsort of like extreme situations
that drive us to do drastic things.
And like you said there, we you need to understand what what
(26:19):
that isn't within our characters.
So yeah, great bit of advice. Absolutely.
And if you, if you've, if you'vemade those, so two things can
happen when I challenge a writeron this, if it's missing on the
pages, two things can happen. And that's where the coaching
piece comes in, because it's notjust me handing that a thing and
saying that it's missing on the page.
It's it's a dialogue between us saying, hey, like, what do you
(26:42):
think? And sometimes the writer says,
gosh, I hadn't thought of that. I need to think about it right
and decide. But even more often the writer
can talk about it and say, well,they want this and they want
that and they want this and theywant that and this is the whole
thing and they know because manyof us has been carrying around,
(27:03):
you know, I like to ask writers,how long does it take you to
write your first book and the ads?
I mean, once somebody said threeweeks, but other than that, it's
years and years and years because we carry around these
stories and you know, all of that information, but maybe it
didn't make it onto the page. And I can tell you if it's not
there and you know the the answer, it's pretty easy to fix.
(27:24):
It's like a couple of sentences.It's not a rewrite, right?
Like I'm not like, go back and rewrite your story.
It's like, hey, if you could just give them instead of them
standing around, maybe have theminteracting and trying to steal
something because they need thisother thing, right?
Like give them something to do. It's way more interesting.
But a lot of times, writers actually have those answers in
(27:44):
their heads and they didn't either didn't realize it wasn't
on the page, or they just didn'tthink it mattered.
And it matters. Those, Yeah.
Are there any other sorts of pitfalls that you see a lot of
writers fall into? Yeah.
Now Richie's like, let's keep going on this.
What? Oh my gosh.
I mean, what's the? Most common 1 is.
(28:09):
What the most common one is? I mean, that's a big one.
I think the other thing, I mean,I'm going to pull back 1000
feet. I could go on all day.
Like I said, I've got whole courses full of things that I
see When you, when you work on 50 to 100 books a year, right,
the patterns emerge and you start to see what everybody
does. And it's not, it's not the fault
(28:32):
of the writers. Like I said, usually those
cliche things or those overdone things are not because they're
copying, because actually those things don't ever make it into
published fiction. So you might think you're
completely original. What you don't realize is that
it's like just the easiest way to do something.
So for instance, I like to share.
I've met, I mean, I, I, I'm, youknow, friends with many agents
(28:56):
as well and so over why and theywill share what their pet peeves
are. And one of the things that you
would have no way of knowing unless you have that
conversation is that, you know, opening a book with either a
dream or somebody waking up is apet peeve for people.
Because again, it's not that youyou don't see it that often in
(29:18):
published works because it doesn't make it into it.
But it is the easiest way for a new writer who hasn't learned to
manage the passage of time in their books to open a scene.
It's like, well, their day starts when they wake up.
So I'm going to show them wakingup and then their day ends with
them falling asleep. I guarantee you that you, you
(29:39):
know, every single reader out there on the planet will assume
that they woke up and will assume that they eventually
sleep because that's one of our downfalls as humans.
And, and maybe it's like in a magic system, you need limits in
a, in humanity, we have this limit where we need to actually
sleep. And when we don't have sleep
four times, then maybe that's a stressor.
(29:59):
But in general, if you don't mention it, we know you woke up
and we know you went to sleep. So cut those parts, please.
There's lots of things like thatwhere they're just the easiest
way to set things up. And so if you've been reading
manuscripts for a very long time, which I have, or if you're
an agent or a publisher who reads many, many, many more
manuscripts than I will ever read in my lifetime.
(30:22):
Was that a recent conference where where a few agents shared,
one said 2000 queries a year, one said 6001, said 8000.
So you can just see like 8000 queries a year.
That's more than 30 queries a day.
If you never take a day off and you read, you know, 300 and
67365 days a year, I don't know what, what, what fantasy
(30:43):
universe has 367 days? See, I get to make things up.
But. But yeah, it's a lot, right?
And so they start to see these patterns of what is the easiest,
like where, where is the writer taking a shortcut?
Where has the writer not pushed themselves?
Where has the writer not learnedyet how to get around that?
Does that make sense? So there's some tells, yeah.
(31:06):
Yeah, that's that's a really good bit of advice.
And it's people just think like I always, I would say to these
people as like, if you think of like a plot points or the next,
the next thing you could jump tojust stop and think about all
the other ones as well. Don't just settle for the first
one or the most convenient one. Like, think about something
that's going to have a bit more conflict in it, or could make
(31:28):
things a bit more difficult and list as many as you can and only
then choose the next sort of route to take when you've.
Got all. The options before.
I have an exercise that I do with newer writers, which is
start the same scene three ways.And in some ways it gives me
like, like it makes me cringe toeven think because if somebody
(31:48):
asked me to write, rewrite my scenes, I've had I've had
editors say, hey, why don't you just write this one from scratch
again and see what happens? I'm like, that does not feel
productive. But I do this exercise with new
writers to say, write the same scene 3 different ways, right?
And this exercise actually comesfrom my mentor Jenny Nash from
author, the CEO of Author Accelerator.
(32:10):
So you need to give credit wherecredit is due because it's her
exercise that I just think is brilliant for newer writers.
But it's, it's right. The same scene 3 three different
ways. And so you go into the scene and
you write it and it's timed. And then you maybe start the
scene 5 minutes earlier or 5 minutes later, or change the
setting or bring a different character in and it's the same
(32:32):
scene. And, and the whole idea is to
stretch exactly what you just said, Richie, stretch the
writer's brain so that they don't just settle on the first
thing that comes to mind. Because I can tell you it's not
going to be the best one. It's probably going to be that
cliche one. So you're telling the story or
or even showing. I mean, I'm all about show,
don't tell, but you're maybe even showing the scene, but from
(32:54):
the simplest perspective possible.
So what else is possible, right?Where else can you move this and
to get your brain to think differently, especially when
you're running fiction, Even if you're writing nonfiction, I
work with a lot of memoir and nonfiction clients as well.
You can still stretch yourself alittle bit and try it from
different perspectives and figure out what the best way,
(33:16):
not the easiest way, not the fastest way, what's the best
way, the most effective way to get your point across.
And if you're making those decisions, your book is going to
be so much more effective. It's a great bit of advice as
well. You mentioned show and tell
there. That's also one that gets spoken
a lot about in the right and well.
(33:37):
So it's something that you're quite interested in, isn't
there? I'm actually fascinated by it.
And again, it, you know, we all go back to our own origin story
or back story. And it won't bore you by going
back to my childhood again. But yeah, show, don't tell is
one of the first pieces of advice that you sort of hear
about. And people learn about not
(34:00):
naming emotions, you know, show your emotions.
And I took those courses at university where where they
teach you that piece of it. But show don't tell is like a a
huge topic that I think is so fascinating because I'm
fascinated by readers brains Andmy whole philosophy is, hey, how
do you tell a story? I mean, it's kind of like
(34:21):
bringing persuasive language or sales language into your book.
Of course, you're not being salesy, but it's like, how do I
get my idea that I'm so excited about and how do I use words to
make my reader excited about it also?
And how do I use words the most effectively and show don't tell
is the most effective way to do that.
(34:42):
And, and so, I mean, I can't getinto all of it, but how do we
the whole idea behind it is, OK,I can tell you a story about
what happened, but how do I makeyou feel like you're really
there? How do I make you feel care
about my characters? How do I interpret it for you
and show you what it means to mycharacter to have this thing
(35:05):
happen because it might be different than what I feel,
right? For me, you know, maybe missing
a meal or something isn't so dire because I, you know, I
don't know if you were using thevideo for this or not, but I'm
pretty well fed. Like I could probably miss a
meal. I'd be OK.
But for somebody in one of our fantasy stories, especially epic
(35:27):
fantasy when they're on this journey, maybe missing a meal
means that they're not going to be hip top shaped for their
battle or something, right? So how do we show those things?
How do we show what we want to, what we want to share in the
book without, you know, without glossing over the important
parts? How do we make our reader
experience it like they're there?
How do we let up their brains? How do we make them, you know,
(35:50):
relate it to their own lives? All of those things.
It's such a complex topic and sofascinating to me.
Yes. Yeah, it is a lot of psychology
and it's, I really like that youbrought that up because it
really interests me how you create these images in people's
minds and, and how writers take different approaches to do it,
(36:10):
achieving it. And yeah, that's another reason
why. Yeah.
And I mean, it's so interesting.Yeah.
And you were asking, I mean, I'll keep on this theme of what
do I see is the most common mistake.
And I would say it's uncomfortable to do.
You feel like you're being cheesy when you first Start
learning show, don't tell techniques.
(36:30):
It feels like it's overdone, like it's, it's going to be
whatever. And I can say to writers, I
said, you know what, I will, I will let you know when you're
doing it too much because there will come a day after I've
worked with a writer for about 6months is like this magic
number. All of a sudden I get a scene.
I'm like, you're showing too much because it does happen.
I mean, there's certainly a place for telling.
(36:52):
And the idea is, how do you you know which pieces of the book
are important and which pieces aren't?
You could show me that wake up scene in grave detail about, you
know, rubbing my eyes and fluttering my eyelids and moving
around in the bed. But if don't care about that
scene, then you're kind of boring me by showing it.
(37:12):
You know, she woke up or skipping that all together is
fine, right? So, so it's, it's picking and
choosing. But I, I will say that it takes
a long time before a writer actually is doing it too much.
But many writers, especially newer writers, think that
they're doing it too much from off the get go and they think
(37:33):
they're being too obvious about it.
And I can tell you, you're probably not.
You're probably not doing it toomuch, especially with magic.
Let's bring it back to fantasy because I'm talking a lot about
newer writers. But let's bring this back to
fantasy. The biggest mistake that I see
in fantasy, I mean, not all fantasy has magic, but much of
it does, is making your magic oryour paranormal or your whatever
(37:57):
that is too small. So that I might think that it's
just something normal that somebody's doing a hyperbole or
exaggerating about. Make it big, make it weird.
Whatever your magic is, make it huge.
Give it a color, give it a sound.
Like, how do we make it 3D? You know, for whatever reason, a
(38:19):
lot of times we have cerebral magic.
I can read minds or I can do this or I can do that.
And it kind of writers tend to be really quiet about it and
just slip it in that she heard this thought in her head, but
make it weird, make it big, slowit down.
That's important. Show those pieces.
That's a really good bit of comments on that.
(38:39):
Yeah, I, I was actually talking with someone before about True
Detective season 1. I don't know if you ever seen
it, but I mean that's a it's a pretty right.
It's a brilliant story, but every now and then one of the
main characters, Rust, you get these so all sorts of like
magical and psychedelic visions.And it's not that that's the
(39:07):
extent of it in the story. There's nothing else magical or
in and you don't even know if it's like, like magic, for
example, for it's enough to makeyou wonder.
And for me, that's the, the beauty of magic is that it's,
it's something to wonder about. And I mean.
You don't have to give away the farm or explain it.
(39:28):
Not that's not what I'm saying, but make it interesting, right.
So how they portray that? If they just had him having a
thought, if it was written like a thought and then you're like,
was that magic or was that not magic?
But make it weird enough that you're like, wait a minute, that
doesn't feel like real life, right?
(39:48):
Do they make it weird? Is it weird enough to be
intrigued? Do they make it weird enough to
be intriguing in that situation?Yeah, and like I say, I'm
talking about it now. Exactly.
Right. Because you, you you're like,
wow, I remembered that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Don't be afraid. And the other thing I will say,
(40:09):
I don't know why I'm on this tangent.
Like I said, you asked me a question.
I can talk all day. What else do I see, especially
with respect to fantasy books, is we want to somewhere in the
opening even like one mistake, especially in why a fantasy that
I see writers do is, you know, you have this kid or this teen
(40:30):
with no magic. So the first half of the book is
their boring life with no magic,and the second-half of their
book is the book, like all the magic starts.
You kind of, you know, your opening chapters are a contract
with your reader and you're showing them what it's going to
be like. So you have to give away the
farm, but make sure that you're pulling forward in that opening
(40:51):
scene. Something weird.
Something weird's going to happen to give us an idea that
this isn't a boring contemporaryworld, that something's going to
happen. Because different readers like
different things. And if you read half a book of
somebody you know going to prom and the football game, and then
the other half of the book is them going to a Quidditch match
(41:11):
or something else, right? You've broken that contract with
your reader. They're two different books, and
it feels really disjointed. So make sure even if you're not
planning, even if your characterdoesn't know about magic yet,
even if you're planning to, to introduce it later.
And a lot of people say, but Susie, it's all in the
second-half. And I'm like, yeah, but you've
got to kind of give us a hint, right?
(41:33):
Give us a hint. Let us know.
Yeah, exactly. Foreshadow it.
Perfect. Yeah, I feel bad now saying that
because inline novella together with your eyes magic only pops
up at the very end and there's no legend of it at all.
So. But it's a bit of a revelation
that it does exist. It's like a new thing, so.
(41:56):
OK, well, you know. Explain me well.
But it is set in a world. It's not exactly a secret.
I've seen the covers for it and the blurbs for it.
It's not exactly a secret that there's going to be something
magical. Or is it?
It's not right. Yeah, well, in a fantasy world
anything can happen, so always expect the unexpected.
They think can happen exactly. You know what, and and I can
(42:17):
hear the comments now because people will say, Hey, there's
all these examples where what you're saying Susie is a great
book, right, Like they did what you say is incorrect and it's a
great book. And that's the thing.
There are absolutely exceptions,but you know, when we're looking
over all, and I'm sure that I'm sure that story is amazing, but
(42:40):
when you look at it overall, youwant to be doing things that
give you the best chance to likemake it the easiest for your
reader to engage. So the more things you don't
have to do everything that I say, certainly, and you can
still have a very successful novel, short story, book,
whatever you're writing and not do these things.
(43:00):
But if you if you break every rule and don't do any of them,
you're going to end up, you know, with a very confused
reader and probably not what youthink, which is a very intrigued
reader. But certainly you can.
You can break any one of these rules, Richie, and still be
totally fine. Yeah, you can be the anarchist.
(43:20):
Susie, thank you very much. It's been lovely chatting with
you. You've shared an awful lot of
wisdom and I've learned loads, so I'm sure I love the listeners
at home. We've learned a lot as well.
If anyone would like to learn more about you, you're right in
all your coaching. Where's the best place for them
to go? Head to my website
itsallthere@suzievidori.com It'sgot all my ongoing programs as
(43:42):
well as my coaching programs. Awesome.
There'll be links in the description, but Suzie, thank
you very much. Again, appreciate it very much.
It's been. Have an amazing time Richie.
Thanks I let's do this again soon.
Definitely, yeah. And thank you, everyone for
listening. Thank you for listening to the
Fantasy Writers Tool Shed. If you'd like to join our
writing community on Discord andget access to fantasy writing
(44:06):
classes and books on Patreon, check the links in the
description. And if you don't want to miss
any future episodes, be sure to follow or subscribe.
And to support the show, leave aquick rating on Spotify or
iTunes and share this episode onsocial media or with anyone who
you think may be interested. Thank you very much for
(44:26):
listening. Enjoy the show.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Fantasy Writers
Tool Shed. I'm your host, Richie Belling,
and today I'm delighted to be joined by the brilliant YA
author, editor and writing coach, Susie Vidori.
Susie, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me Richie.
It's so great to be here. Well, thank you very much for
joining me. It's great to have you here,
(00:31):
number one. And we had a really great chat
last week, didn't we #2 on your own podcast.
We did. You're going to be on my podcast
as well. I love, love, love.
My audience is going to love your take on fantasy writing, so
it's fun to be here too. So listeners will soon discover
that we are, we both love channel writing.
(00:53):
When there's four, I think that's fair to say definitely.
And why not do it again? But I think with your skills and
expertise as a as a writing coach, obviously a very talented
and widely read author, there's always lots to learn.
So I always like to begin at thebegin.
(01:17):
I think that's some people like to dive in media res, but I
think I like to see people's journeys.
So do you mind telling us about your how you got into writing
and what your journey through the writing world has been like?
Absolutely. I love the M Media Res reference
with my people. We can throw those things out
there. Yeah.
(01:37):
I mean, how did I get started out as a writer?
I just always knew I was going to write a book.
And when I talk to people, they often say something similar when
you feel called to write a book,that you just always knew that
you were a writer. And you might not have skills to
do it at the time. But it was just one of those
things that I always knew that Iwould be a writer.
And I wrote a lot of half books as a teenager, which means, I
(01:58):
mean, I moved a lot. This is before the Internet,
before the cloud. So I lost a notebook or I, you
know, I had a computer that caught fire.
That's the story I love to tell when I tour in schools.
And and so you lose them. And but as an adult, I was just
like, I'm going to write a book one day.
I didn't know what it was going to be, to be honest.
(02:19):
And I was grappling with that because I was a business
executive and, you know, people worry about this.
And I, you know, I, I never laugh at anybody who thinks, oh,
goodness, what's gonna happen when I hit it big time and it
doesn't work out with my other persona.
You know, very few of us ever have to worry about that.
But that's what you think, right?
And so I was like, well, I don'twant to write something racy
(02:41):
because, like, it doesn't fit. And I have kids and all the
things, right? And they don't want to do
something too controversial. I don't want to do something,
you know, like I just had all these negative thoughts around
what I didn't want to do. And then at some point, YA
became really big, and I could see that I could write something
for a wide audience. I could write something with
(03:02):
really relevant human ideas thatI wanted to portray, and I could
still keep my job as an executive.
Now, that didn't last long because writing took over and
it's not something that happens for everybody.
And it wasn't something that I planned.
I thought I was going to write books on the side, and then it
kind of became my life and my job and where I was comfortable
(03:25):
and where I was, you know, thriving.
And yeah, I like to say writing a book, you don't know what's
going to happen. If you'd have told me a decade
ago that I was going to be a book coach and be on podcast
talking and this would be my job, I would have thought you
were nuts. Like I was a business executive.
That was my identity. And so it was a really
(03:47):
interesting path. But it's gonna open doors.
Those of you who are just starting out, you're writing
your books is going to open doors.
You don't know what they're going to be.
You can't control it, but it will change your life.
It will change your path. Yeah, it's like a battle for how
long you can resist. Yeah, right.
(04:08):
Yeah. I just think.
Yeah, I was just going to say it's a battle for how long you
can resist and how closely your author persona matches your,
your real humanity or your real self.
I think, you know, as a businessexecutive, I was great at my
job. I was made a lot of money for
the companies that I worked with.
And just at some level I was always sort of working for
(04:33):
somebody else and doing somebodyelse's dream.
And writing is a whole differentthing.
It's it's a whole different level of being a human.
And I'm grateful for that. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah. It's interesting that you say
that like we do spend a lot of our time making other people
rich and it's, it is a brilliantthing because writing is is all
(04:57):
for you. Well, it's for the reader as
well, but. It's for the readers, and in
this case, I also help other writers.
You know, as a book coach, I help an editor.
I help other writers as well figure out their potential as a
writer, which is a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah.
So what, what made you sort of lean into YA?
(05:18):
What was what is it about young adult fiction that sort of draws
you to order? Love the pace, it's fast-paced,
but also at the time I really wanted to write and they didn't
necessarily want to only write YA fiction, but I wanted to
write something that my kids could read.
(05:39):
I wrote the Found to my first book, the first draft on
maternity leave with my third child and she's 14 now.
So, you know, they're kind of past that sort of tween and
middle grade. And my oldest is 19, it doesn't
read that much anymore at all because she's off at university
and and doesn't have time. But yeah, really just I, I
(06:00):
wanted to write something that was all-encompassing that I
could do in my spare time. And fantasy, I mean, really my
favorite, I think we had this discussion last week as well.
But my favorite genres to read are historical fiction.
But I don't enjoy doing the research.
And when I write, I don't want to be encumbered by all the work
that comes with that because because I have such a busy other
(06:24):
sort of part of my brain that works on other things.
And so fantasy is amazing because I get to make it all up
and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's if
it's true or not, right? Definitely, yeah, as well as the
best things you you've always got that get out of jail free
card if you ever need. Exactly, get out of jail free
(06:44):
card where you know magic can solve it.
Magic can you know? You can always introduce new
levels of it, or your magic can change.
I could talk about magic systemsall day long, sometimes I do.
Yeah, I suppose for YA, it's oneof the big appeals, I imagine.
Is that one of the key sort of elements that you need in AYA
book? Well, I mean, not necessarily
(07:08):
like you don't need to have fantasy.
There's definitely contemporary YA and actually in 2020, YE was
a little bit slow. Like YE fantasy was a little bit
slow because they purchased a lot.
The publishing had purchased traditional publishing and
purchased a lot. And so my agent was saying, Hey,
let's do something contemporary just for now.
And so I wrote this, I think I shared this story with you
(07:30):
before, but I wrote this, I wrote this contemporary novel.
And then all of a sudden, you know, a couple of 10 pages in, I
was like called up my agent and I'm like, so writing, it's
contemporary, it's teens, they're doing the things.
And then all of a sudden phantompirate ship shows up on the
(07:51):
horizon. And it's see.
And my agent was like, all right, I see where this is
going. I'm like, I tried, man.
I I can't do it. I tried.
I can't, I can't write contemporary.
I just love it so much. It's like, it's like the fantasy
piece of it is just so much fun.And writing fiction is just such
a pleasure, pleasure, such a joy.
(08:13):
When I'm writing first drafts, Iget out of my house, which is
where I edit everybody else's work in my office here.
And I get out of my house, I make the day of it.
I have make it fun. Sometimes I ride outside under a
tree. I love being near water.
I ride at a pub somewhere that I'm just really happy.
And it feels absolutely ridiculous that it's my job
(08:35):
because it is such such a great profession.
Nice. So it sounds like, yeah, you've
got a very, very a process that you like and, you know, works
for you. And I always think that's one of
the most important things you need to learn when you get into
writing. This is how you work and
(08:55):
understand them, what you need to do to get the most out of the
time, the writing time that you do have.
So did it take you a while to sort of learn about your own
writing preferences? And my goodness, so long,
Richie, a child. I don't know how long we have on
this podcast today. Yeah.
I mean, I think that's what led me to becoming a book coach and
(09:18):
an editor in the 1st place was because it took me so long to
learn. I mean, I was always, I like to
say that my only skill. I mean, I did some really cool
jobs and I've worked in every department in huge companies and
in small companies. And if you look at my resume, it
doesn't always make sense. But what you can see is I got
promoted and I got promoted and I got promoted.
And there's progression. And they moved within companies
(09:41):
and they would say like, put me in the biggest mess.
I don't care if that's in finance or products or marketing
or sales or wherever. Wherever you need something
figured out, That's where I liketo be because I could figure out
the big picture of it and get itgoing.
So, but I like to say that my only skill and the reason I
could move so fluidly and all these opportunities opened up
(10:03):
for me around the world that I got to work was because I can
communicate. So my skill set was
communication and being able to take a really complex idea and
break it down into something that made sense to other people.
And that's needed in business. It's also needed in writing.
And the fact that I couldn't do that right away, you know, I
thought I'd be instantly good ata lot of us think this coming
(10:25):
from a different industry. Oh, you know, I thought I'd be
instantly good at writing books,and I wasn't.
And I had to, you know, really work at that.
I thought I could just write down during nap time and write
this book. And I knew that what was coming
out on the page was not up to snuff with what I was writing,
but I didn't know how to fix it.And so I spent, you know, years
(10:47):
studying and trying to figure out what are those things?
And I found it really frustrating in the writing
community because many people were helpful.
By the way, I, I didn't find I was expecting to get shut down.
And people were great, but it was a lot of you're almost
there, keep going. You've got this and not a lot
(11:08):
of, hey, specifically what you're doing is so cliche
because it's actually the easiest way to set up a scene.
Why don't you try this, Right? Which is the way that I teach
now. So I didn't get a lot of that.
And I had to figure a lot of that out on my own just from
trial and error and figuring outwhat, you know, getting 10
opinions and figuring out what'sthe common ground and what,
what's going to fix this. And so I started putting
(11:30):
together these little Nuggets and, and yeah, it, it took me a
long time to figure out how to write, but I've got it now.
Yeah, I think a lot of people dogo into it with the attitude
that you mentioned there, that you because they've might be
successful in something else. The Do you think the skills
translate? I mean, I was a lawyer and I
(11:52):
could invite legal stuff, OK, But I soon realized that I
couldn't really write fiction. And you do You do have to study
and you have to learn. You have to put the hours in and
it you've got to be really patient because it does take
time. And I always like to have the
(12:12):
mindset that you can always write something better tomorrow
than what you did today. And then that way you're always
looking to get better and you'renever satisfied.
And I'm always scared of being satisfied because then I'll be
complacent and. Yeah, I mean, if you then back
to my varied resume, I was always looking for that next
(12:35):
challenge. And I think a decade into
writing, I'm challenged each andevery day and I can think of a
million things that I'd like to try in my next book to make it
more complicated to challenge myself to learn something new.
I honestly don't think to get bored of editing other people's
work is such a gift to me because it's amazing.
(12:55):
Like I, I read the like I, I need to give myself enough time.
I'm actually very fast in terms of an editor.
It's kind of a joke in my community because they're like,
wow, Susie, like you are intense.
You get a lot done. And, and part of that is also
like really great when I send things out and don't know when
it's coming back, It's very anxiety juicing.
(13:17):
And so I like to give a deadline, and I need a deadline
myself. Yeah, it's very complex.
And, you know, No2 manuscripts need.
Yes, there's lots of things thatare common.
And that's what I base my courses on is like, here's the,
you know, the top 10 things thatevery writer comes to me needs
to learn. You can find those in my
courses. But when I do it personally, I
(13:39):
take it very personally. And I try to figure out, OK,
well, in this case, this part ofyour book isn't working yet.
Here's some suggestions. You don't have to take my
suggestions, but here's three ways you could fix it.
Let's talk about it and figure out which one of these or
something completely different is going to fix it.
But here's the problem. Here's why it's not going to
land with readers. Here's, you know, some
(14:02):
suggestions to fix it. And then we we work through
those problems that way. I don't think I'm ever going to
get bored because every single book and everybody's brains work
differently. And so it's an amazing challenge
that I love. Yeah, definitely.
I mean, so some people listeningwho may have heard of writing
coaches, but they don't really understand what they do or what
(14:24):
benefits they can offer. So do you mind telling them
giving us like a sort of a bit of an overview of, of the role
of a coaching and, and the benefits that you've seen your
students sort of reap as as they've gone through the
process? Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, they're most people are more familiar with editing and I
(14:44):
do developmental editing as well, which is looking at the
whole book and then providing suggestions or, or reacting
basically like a really, you know, a really highly skilled
beta reader who can't just tell you, you know, that they did
like something or didn't like something.
But the wise, right, this didn'tland because of this way that
you've structured it. And This is why it's not
(15:05):
working, you know, and how to fix it.
That's all the things in developmental editing.
Coaching can work from the very beginning of the process or it
can come in at the end coaching.Like think of it as a personal
trainer for your for your writing life.
I mean, we can all buy a gym membership and go to the gym.
We don't always know what to do when we get there.
(15:27):
We're not always motivated to doit.
But coaching is a similar phenomenon.
You could take my courses, but if you want that Cadillac
experience and somebody to driveyou every single day and to read
everything that you write and togive that push and pull and to
teach you in that one-on-one setting versus a group program,
I've got lots of group programs.Then that's what a book coach
(15:49):
does. So we do three things as that
personal trainer for your writing life.
There's motivation, right? Motivation and deadlines and
that accountability in the project management and so that
you're not like, OK, well, when is this project and you know,
when is this book going to be done?
It's like, OK, well, here's how you write and here's what's
possible so that we have some deadlines that you can set to,
(16:13):
but then also the writing craft.It's it's a one-on-one coach and
you can learn from the ground upwhat your particular style and
how your voice is gonna be the best it can be on the page.
And then the third thing is emotional support because we
have days. We all have days.
And writing a book is not for the faint of heart.
(16:35):
And sometimes all you need is tobe able to tell somebody, hey,
this week was really hard For these reasons.
And, you know, I'm always there for that because we're humans.
Again, I think writing is the closest thing that we can to
sort of defining our humanity and getting that down and
(16:55):
sharing that with the world is scary, so.
Yeah, and we do it alone, don't we?
Most of the time anyway. And I think when I've seen
writers in our writing community, when they've got the
confidence in like gathered enough confidence to reach out
(17:15):
and then start forming like critique groups or doing beta
read swaps and stuff like that, that's when you see them start
to really get better. And so I always feel like it is
worthwhile working with other people when you feel ready to do
that. But I think a lot of people the
(17:36):
you may not feel comfortable working with other writers and
feeling like you might feel too self-conscious, for example.
So I know when that there's someone else out there like an
editor or a coach, you can really sort of give you the
feedback that you need. I think that's really valuable
and it's worth knowing about because a lot of people, they
(17:59):
just, they don't even know that that kind of service is out
there. It's pretty new, honestly.
You know, a decade ago or two decades ago, this, this job
didn't exist because this was something that publishing houses
would take on. They, you know, you could pitch
them a promising, A promising story or send them a sample and
then agents or publishers would work with you to finish that.
(18:22):
That isn't the case anymore. And a lot of times people will
come to me and say, well, do youknow, do I need to pay for a
developmental edit? Because isn't my editor going to
do that for me once I get a traditional contract?
The truth is you're not going toget a traditional contract these
days unless you've already had it edited, right?
Because they expect it to be as polished as can be, and they do
(18:44):
not have the time to work with every writer and help them come
along. So, yeah, so it's a bit of a
newer position that fills that gap.
Yeah, I like you say, it gives people structure and direction
when they feel like they're lacking it.
So I think it's a, it's really good, good idea.
I mean what? I was going to say, I was at a
(19:05):
conference this weekend and somebody said something and I'm
still trying to work on it, but I'll test it out here with you.
And it was something like, it isscary to share your writing.
And as long as you haven't haven't shared it, it's sort of
in that limbo, like that limbo where writing limbo where you
think it might be good, but you don't know and you're never
(19:27):
going to know if you never shareit, right.
And it's like, I think of the Schrodinger's cat, right?
Like the the cat in the box. And as long as you don't open
the box, you don't know if the cat is alive or dead, right?
Like, and so they're kind of both things at once.
And it's the same as your writing.
If you're not, you know, if you can, if you could find great
critique partners, amazing, you know, you don't necessarily have
(19:49):
to pay for these things. But at the same time, I've also
met many people who got ripped to shreds by a critique partner
and didn't write for 10 years, right?
So we've got to be careful aboutwho we're sharing that with and,
and who we're asking for help because sometimes it's not a
great situation, right? So there's a, there's a trust
(20:11):
level as well. But yeah, if you never share
your writing, it might be brilliant, but it might not be.
And you're never going to know until you share it.
So when I read stories, one thing, well, the main thing that
I'm drawn to is the characters. So I was wondering what advice
you have for any writers out there who are looking to create
(20:32):
lifelike characters and what kind of mistakes that you've
seen people make in regards to characters over the years.
Yeah. I mean, certainly, OK, so we're
kind of two, I could talk about this all day or two.
I'm going to try to be succinct with regards to characters.
Just know that in a novel length, I I coach books.
(20:52):
And so if you're writing short story or other things, this may
not apply. But in a novel length book, you
need a lot, right? You're going to spend a lot of
time with this character. So pick somebody that you're
fascinated by because if you pick something that you're not
interested in, you're going to get very bored.
You can do sort of a simpler character if you're doing a a
(21:14):
shorter story because you don't have time to delve into all the
things. But definitely you want your
characters to be flawed. But the number one advice that I
would give people and the numberone thing that people get get,
I'm going to say get wrong but or have struggle with.
And even after we work on it, it's a really hard thing is in
the novel. What I see, and I said this
(21:35):
earlier, you know, when it with my own writing, some things
become cliche. And they're not cliche because
they're overdone or because you're copying it.
They're cliche because they're the easiest thing or the most
natural thing in the world. And all writers come to that
same conclusion naturally if they haven't learned otherwise.
And so it does get overdone. And that's why things become
(21:56):
cliche. What happens with characters is
often times, especially in YA, but in other genres as well, and
for adults, is we have a character and when I ask them,
you know, what they want in life, they want to do the right
thing. Is the answer right?
They want to do the right thing.And I've got to tell you that
(22:18):
that might be true in real life,that we just want to do the
right thing and we're altruisticand all those other things.
It doesn't make for a good main character because it's boring,
right? It's boring and it's cliche.
If you just say that my character wants to do this thing
and save the world because it's the right thing to do.
(22:39):
I got to tell you, nobody's going to, nobody's going to read
that book. So if that's your answer, you
got to dig deeper because you'vegot to figure out what is the
deeply personal reason why your character will go above and
beyond what any normal person would do in order to save the
world, right? Or to do whatever it is that
(23:00):
they want to do. And that's the number one issue
that I see with their writing. Once you solve that and you give
them a deeply personal reason, you know, if if the world is at
risk, they personally will die. Even framing it that way and say
I'm trying to save my own skin is way more interesting than
just I think it's the right thing to do.
(23:23):
So challenge yourselves on that.If that's your answer, you got
to dig deeper. It's not wrong and good for you
that you want to save the world or that your character wants to,
but I can tell you it is not enough to carry a book.
It's boring. Yeah, how, how is your?
Is there any sort of ways or checks that you have to that
writers can use to see if a story is a little bit too dull
(23:46):
or flat? Dollar flat.
Well, I mean, if we there's a million, yes, there's a million,
but just keeping going on the character side, I think you just
need to check in on their agency, right.
So agency is the concept that they want something and they
have a reason for it. So it's all kind of related.
(24:08):
So if we know what their deeply personal reason is for wanting
to go above and beyond what any normal person would do to get,
you know, this, this thing done that they're trying to do, and
we know what they want, all of asudden that gives your character
many, many things to do, right. And so these days, we're writing
much more, especially in genre fiction, in fantasy, we're
(24:29):
writing much more from a deep perspective.
And you want to color everything, everything with your
character's perspective, right? We're not some narrator pulled
way back that you might have seen in books 30 years ago.
That's describing stuff from 1000.
Foot viewer, Spider Man up on the wall looking down.
We're a person moving through the world and we notice things
(24:53):
that we will notice. Same thing is true for agency.
If you know why they're doing, like if you know what they want
in a scene, that gives them stuff to do, right?
So that they're not just standing there observing what's
happening. They're in there trying to get
that done, whatever it is that they want, right?
And so if you've got that, then you'll find that you have lots
(25:15):
of things, stuff for your characters to do.
If they're doing nothing and they'd just be standing there,
you've got an agency problem. Sounds great.
No, it's a brilliant way to sortof understand the character
because like you say, it's, it's, it's not just like one
thing you've got to think about.You've got to think about all
(25:36):
these different elements to makeit all so convincing and
engaging. Like you've got to basically
make the reader believe that everything is that is happening
is valid and justified. Like you're saying it is hard to
do with characters because people like say, go down easy
routes and they don't really delve deeper into what is moving
(25:58):
that person emotionally. And that is like everything we
do is emotional. Like we have emotional responses
to everything and it's only themsort of like extreme situations
that drive us to do drastic things.
And like you said there, we you need to understand what what
(26:19):
that isn't within our characters.
So yeah, great bit of advice. Absolutely.
And if you, if you've, if you'vemade those, so two things can
happen when I challenge a writeron this, if it's missing on the
pages, two things can happen. And that's where the coaching
piece comes in, because it's notjust me handing that a thing and
saying that it's missing on the page.
It's it's a dialogue between us saying, hey, like, what do you
(26:42):
think? And sometimes the writer says,
gosh, I hadn't thought of that. I need to think about it right
and decide. But even more often the writer
can talk about it and say, well,they want this and they want
that and they want this and theywant that and this is the whole
thing and they know because manyof us has been carrying around,
(27:03):
you know, I like to ask writers,how long does it take you to
write your first book and the ads?
I mean, once somebody said threeweeks, but other than that, it's
years and years and years because we carry around these
stories and you know, all of that information, but maybe it
didn't make it onto the page. And I can tell you if it's not
there and you know the the answer, it's pretty easy to fix.
(27:24):
It's like a couple of sentences.It's not a rewrite, right?
Like I'm not like, go back and rewrite your story.
It's like, hey, if you could just give them instead of them
standing around, maybe have theminteracting and trying to steal
something because they need thisother thing, right?
Like give them something to do. It's way more interesting.
But a lot of times, writers actually have those answers in
(27:44):
their heads and they didn't either didn't realize it wasn't
on the page, or they just didn'tthink it mattered.
And it matters. Those, Yeah.
Are there any other sorts of pitfalls that you see a lot of
writers fall into? Yeah.
Now Richie's like, let's keep going on this.
What? Oh my gosh.
I mean, what's the? Most common 1 is.
(28:09):
What the most common one is? I mean, that's a big one.
I think the other thing, I mean,I'm going to pull back 1000
feet. I could go on all day.
Like I said, I've got whole courses full of things that I
see When you, when you work on 50 to 100 books a year, right,
the patterns emerge and you start to see what everybody
does. And it's not, it's not the fault
(28:32):
of the writers. Like I said, usually those
cliche things or those overdone things are not because they're
copying, because actually those things don't ever make it into
published fiction. So you might think you're
completely original. What you don't realize is that
it's like just the easiest way to do something.
So for instance, I like to share.
I've met, I mean, I, I, I'm, youknow, friends with many agents
(28:56):
as well and so over why and theywill share what their pet peeves
are. And one of the things that you
would have no way of knowing unless you have that
conversation is that, you know, opening a book with either a
dream or somebody waking up is apet peeve for people.
Because again, it's not that youyou don't see it that often in
(29:18):
published works because it doesn't make it into it.
But it is the easiest way for a new writer who hasn't learned to
manage the passage of time in their books to open a scene.
It's like, well, their day starts when they wake up.
So I'm going to show them wakingup and then their day ends with
them falling asleep. I guarantee you that you, you
(29:39):
know, every single reader out there on the planet will assume
that they woke up and will assume that they eventually
sleep because that's one of our downfalls as humans.
And, and maybe it's like in a magic system, you need limits in
a, in humanity, we have this limit where we need to actually
sleep. And when we don't have sleep
four times, then maybe that's a stressor.
(29:59):
But in general, if you don't mention it, we know you woke up
and we know you went to sleep. So cut those parts, please.
There's lots of things like thatwhere they're just the easiest
way to set things up. And so if you've been reading
manuscripts for a very long time, which I have, or if you're
an agent or a publisher who reads many, many, many more
manuscripts than I will ever read in my lifetime.
(30:22):
Was that a recent conference where where a few agents shared,
one said 2000 queries a year, one said 6001, said 8000.
So you can just see like 8000 queries a year.
That's more than 30 queries a day.
If you never take a day off and you read, you know, 300 and
67365 days a year, I don't know what, what, what fantasy
(30:43):
universe has 367 days? See, I get to make things up.
But. But yeah, it's a lot, right?
And so they start to see these patterns of what is the easiest,
like where, where is the writer taking a shortcut?
Where has the writer not pushed themselves?
Where has the writer not learnedyet how to get around that?
Does that make sense? So there's some tells, yeah.
(31:06):
Yeah, that's that's a really good bit of advice.
And it's people just think like I always, I would say to these
people as like, if you think of like a plot points or the next,
the next thing you could jump tojust stop and think about all
the other ones as well. Don't just settle for the first
one or the most convenient one. Like, think about something
that's going to have a bit more conflict in it, or could make
(31:28):
things a bit more difficult and list as many as you can and only
then choose the next sort of route to take when you've.
Got all. The options before.
I have an exercise that I do with newer writers, which is
start the same scene three ways.And in some ways it gives me
like, like it makes me cringe toeven think because if somebody
(31:48):
asked me to write, rewrite my scenes, I've had I've had
editors say, hey, why don't you just write this one from scratch
again and see what happens? I'm like, that does not feel
productive. But I do this exercise with new
writers to say, write the same scene 3 different ways, right?
And this exercise actually comesfrom my mentor Jenny Nash from
author, the CEO of Author Accelerator.
(32:10):
So you need to give credit wherecredit is due because it's her
exercise that I just think is brilliant for newer writers.
But it's, it's right. The same scene 3 three different
ways. And so you go into the scene and
you write it and it's timed. And then you maybe start the
scene 5 minutes earlier or 5 minutes later, or change the
setting or bring a different character in and it's the same
(32:32):
scene. And, and the whole idea is to
stretch exactly what you just said, Richie, stretch the
writer's brain so that they don't just settle on the first
thing that comes to mind. Because I can tell you it's not
going to be the best one. It's probably going to be that
cliche one. So you're telling the story or
or even showing. I mean, I'm all about show,
don't tell, but you're maybe even showing the scene, but from
(32:54):
the simplest perspective possible.
So what else is possible, right?Where else can you move this and
to get your brain to think differently, especially when
you're running fiction, Even if you're writing nonfiction, I
work with a lot of memoir and nonfiction clients as well.
You can still stretch yourself alittle bit and try it from
different perspectives and figure out what the best way,
(33:16):
not the easiest way, not the fastest way, what's the best
way, the most effective way to get your point across.
And if you're making those decisions, your book is going to
be so much more effective. It's a great bit of advice as
well. You mentioned show and tell
there. That's also one that gets spoken
a lot about in the right and well.
(33:37):
So it's something that you're quite interested in, isn't
there? I'm actually fascinated by it.
And again, it, you know, we all go back to our own origin story
or back story. And it won't bore you by going
back to my childhood again. But yeah, show, don't tell is
one of the first pieces of advice that you sort of hear
about. And people learn about not
(34:00):
naming emotions, you know, show your emotions.
And I took those courses at university where where they
teach you that piece of it. But show don't tell is like a a
huge topic that I think is so fascinating because I'm
fascinated by readers brains Andmy whole philosophy is, hey, how
do you tell a story? I mean, it's kind of like
(34:21):
bringing persuasive language or sales language into your book.
Of course, you're not being salesy, but it's like, how do I
get my idea that I'm so excited about and how do I use words to
make my reader excited about it also?
And how do I use words the most effectively and show don't tell
is the most effective way to do that.
(34:42):
And, and so, I mean, I can't getinto all of it, but how do we
the whole idea behind it is, OK,I can tell you a story about
what happened, but how do I makeyou feel like you're really
there? How do I make you feel care
about my characters? How do I interpret it for you
and show you what it means to mycharacter to have this thing
(35:05):
happen because it might be different than what I feel,
right? For me, you know, maybe missing
a meal or something isn't so dire because I, you know, I
don't know if you were using thevideo for this or not, but I'm
pretty well fed. Like I could probably miss a
meal. I'd be OK.
But for somebody in one of our fantasy stories, especially epic
(35:27):
fantasy when they're on this journey, maybe missing a meal
means that they're not going to be hip top shaped for their
battle or something, right? So how do we show those things?
How do we show what we want to, what we want to share in the
book without, you know, without glossing over the important
parts? How do we make our reader
experience it like they're there?
How do we let up their brains? How do we make them, you know,
(35:50):
relate it to their own lives? All of those things.
It's such a complex topic and sofascinating to me.
Yes. Yeah, it is a lot of psychology
and it's, I really like that youbrought that up because it
really interests me how you create these images in people's
minds and, and how writers take different approaches to do it,
(36:10):
achieving it. And yeah, that's another reason
why. Yeah.
And I mean, it's so interesting.Yeah.
And you were asking, I mean, I'll keep on this theme of what
do I see is the most common mistake.
And I would say it's uncomfortable to do.
You feel like you're being cheesy when you first Start
learning show, don't tell techniques.
(36:30):
It feels like it's overdone, like it's, it's going to be
whatever. And I can say to writers, I
said, you know what, I will, I will let you know when you're
doing it too much because there will come a day after I've
worked with a writer for about 6months is like this magic
number. All of a sudden I get a scene.
I'm like, you're showing too much because it does happen.
I mean, there's certainly a place for telling.
(36:52):
And the idea is, how do you you know which pieces of the book
are important and which pieces aren't?
You could show me that wake up scene in grave detail about, you
know, rubbing my eyes and fluttering my eyelids and moving
around in the bed. But if don't care about that
scene, then you're kind of boring me by showing it.
(37:12):
You know, she woke up or skipping that all together is
fine, right? So, so it's, it's picking and
choosing. But I, I will say that it takes
a long time before a writer actually is doing it too much.
But many writers, especially newer writers, think that
they're doing it too much from off the get go and they think
(37:33):
they're being too obvious about it.
And I can tell you, you're probably not.
You're probably not doing it toomuch, especially with magic.
Let's bring it back to fantasy because I'm talking a lot about
newer writers. But let's bring this back to
fantasy. The biggest mistake that I see
in fantasy, I mean, not all fantasy has magic, but much of
it does, is making your magic oryour paranormal or your whatever
(37:57):
that is too small. So that I might think that it's
just something normal that somebody's doing a hyperbole or
exaggerating about. Make it big, make it weird.
Whatever your magic is, make it huge.
Give it a color, give it a sound.
Like, how do we make it 3D? You know, for whatever reason, a
(38:19):
lot of times we have cerebral magic.
I can read minds or I can do this or I can do that.
And it kind of writers tend to be really quiet about it and
just slip it in that she heard this thought in her head, but
make it weird, make it big, slowit down.
That's important. Show those pieces.
That's a really good bit of comments on that.
(38:39):
Yeah, I, I was actually talking with someone before about True
Detective season 1. I don't know if you ever seen
it, but I mean that's a it's a pretty right.
It's a brilliant story, but every now and then one of the
main characters, Rust, you get these so all sorts of like
magical and psychedelic visions.And it's not that that's the
(39:07):
extent of it in the story. There's nothing else magical or
in and you don't even know if it's like, like magic, for
example, for it's enough to makeyou wonder.
And for me, that's the, the beauty of magic is that it's,
it's something to wonder about. And I mean.
You don't have to give away the farm or explain it.
(39:28):
Not that's not what I'm saying, but make it interesting, right.
So how they portray that? If they just had him having a
thought, if it was written like a thought and then you're like,
was that magic or was that not magic?
But make it weird enough that you're like, wait a minute, that
doesn't feel like real life, right?
(39:48):
Do they make it weird? Is it weird enough to be
intrigued? Do they make it weird enough to
be intriguing in that situation?Yeah, and like I say, I'm
talking about it now. Exactly.
Right. Because you, you you're like,
wow, I remembered that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Don't be afraid. And the other thing I will say,
(40:09):
I don't know why I'm on this tangent.
Like I said, you asked me a question.
I can talk all day. What else do I see, especially
with respect to fantasy books, is we want to somewhere in the
opening even like one mistake, especially in why a fantasy that
I see writers do is, you know, you have this kid or this teen
(40:30):
with no magic. So the first half of the book is
their boring life with no magic,and the second-half of their
book is the book, like all the magic starts.
You kind of, you know, your opening chapters are a contract
with your reader and you're showing them what it's going to
be like. So you have to give away the
farm, but make sure that you're pulling forward in that opening
(40:51):
scene. Something weird.
Something weird's going to happen to give us an idea that
this isn't a boring contemporaryworld, that something's going to
happen. Because different readers like
different things. And if you read half a book of
somebody you know going to prom and the football game, and then
the other half of the book is them going to a Quidditch match
(41:11):
or something else, right? You've broken that contract with
your reader. They're two different books, and
it feels really disjointed. So make sure even if you're not
planning, even if your characterdoesn't know about magic yet,
even if you're planning to, to introduce it later.
And a lot of people say, but Susie, it's all in the
second-half. And I'm like, yeah, but you've
got to kind of give us a hint, right?
(41:33):
Give us a hint. Let us know.
Yeah, exactly. Foreshadow it.
Perfect. Yeah, I feel bad now saying that
because inline novella together with your eyes magic only pops
up at the very end and there's no legend of it at all.
So. But it's a bit of a revelation
that it does exist. It's like a new thing, so.
(41:56):
OK, well, you know. Explain me well.
But it is set in a world. It's not exactly a secret.
I've seen the covers for it and the blurbs for it.
It's not exactly a secret that there's going to be something
magical. Or is it?
It's not right. Yeah, well, in a fantasy world
anything can happen, so always expect the unexpected.
They think can happen exactly. You know what, and and I can
(42:17):
hear the comments now because people will say, Hey, there's
all these examples where what you're saying Susie is a great
book, right, Like they did what you say is incorrect and it's a
great book. And that's the thing.
There are absolutely exceptions,but you know, when we're looking
over all, and I'm sure that I'm sure that story is amazing, but
(42:40):
when you look at it overall, youwant to be doing things that
give you the best chance to likemake it the easiest for your
reader to engage. So the more things you don't
have to do everything that I say, certainly, and you can
still have a very successful novel, short story, book,
whatever you're writing and not do these things.
(43:00):
But if you if you break every rule and don't do any of them,
you're going to end up, you know, with a very confused
reader and probably not what youthink, which is a very intrigued
reader. But certainly you can.
You can break any one of these rules, Richie, and still be
totally fine. Yeah, you can be the anarchist.
(43:20):
Susie, thank you very much. It's been lovely chatting with
you. You've shared an awful lot of
wisdom and I've learned loads, so I'm sure I love the listeners
at home. We've learned a lot as well.
If anyone would like to learn more about you, you're right in
all your coaching. Where's the best place for them
to go? Head to my website
itsallthere@suzievidori.com It'sgot all my ongoing programs as
(43:42):
well as my coaching programs. Awesome.
There'll be links in the description, but Suzie, thank
you very much. Again, appreciate it very much.
It's been. Have an amazing time Richie.
Thanks I let's do this again soon.
Definitely, yeah. And thank you, everyone for
listening. Thank you for listening to the
Fantasy Writers Tool Shed. If you'd like to join our
writing community on Discord andget access to fantasy writing
(44:06):
classes and books on Patreon, check the links in the
description. And if you don't want to miss
any future episodes, be sure to follow or subscribe.
And to support the show, leave aquick rating on Spotify or
iTunes and share this episode onsocial media or with anyone who
you think may be interested. Thank you very much for
(44:26):
listening. Enjoy the show.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.