September 13, 2024 • 41 mins
In this episode I'm delighted to be joined by fantasy author, Kate J. Armstrong. Kate's new book Fyrebirds recently hit the shelves and in this episode we talk all about it.
We also dive into Kate's journey through the world of writing, how she found inspiration when it left her, and the crafty questions we love so much, such as how to create characters, magic systems readers love, and worlds people want to escape into.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
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(00:23):
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Thank you very much for listening.
Enjoy the show. Thank you for listening to the
Fantasy Writers Tour, Shed. I'm your host, Richie Billing,
(00:45):
and I'm delighted to be joined by author Kate J Armstrong.
Kate, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here. Thank you very much for joining
me. If you're a little bit
unfamiliar with Kate, debut novel Mike Birds was published
by Penguin in 2023 is a great acclaim and the second book in
the series, Firebirds comes out in August of this year.
(01:06):
Very exciting as well. Yeah.
So we're going to talk all aboutboth books today and while we do
so, we'll zoom in on the crafty things we love so much, like
creating characters and Watts and well, building and the magic
system is very interesting in inthese stories as well.
So definitely want to pick your brains about that.
But I always like to start from the beginning when we speak with
(01:29):
authors on the show. So tell us about UK.
How did you get into writing? Well, I've always, I imagine
everyone says this, but you know, I feel like I've always
been a writer. I've always been scribbling
since for as long as I can remember.
I think when I was younger, I wrote short stories mostly about
Dragons and epic poetry. And I got to high school and was
(01:51):
mostly writing poetry. And then I went to college and I
was getting an English degree inliterature.
And the problem with getting a degree in literature, I, I
found, is that the more you readthe great books and, you know,
the great writers, the more you start to get a complex about how
nothing I could possibly be thisgood.
(02:13):
And so I, I think I kind of psyched myself out in the years
when I was in college, I was still writing, but I, I had
never written anything longer than a short story.
I think when I was maybe 14, I'dwritten like 4 chapters, the
beginning of a novel. And I still to this day really
love writing beginnings. And everything after that is a
but yeah, I think then I graduated from college and I
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didn't want to start working right away.
I was like, what else can I do? So I saved a bunch of money and
I went backpacking, which, you know, I live in Australia now,
and every Australia, every Australian I talk to is like,
yes, you went travelling after college, right?
That's what we all do. And that wasn't the case for
Americans. All my friends were like, you're
doing what? But yeah, I wanted to just get
(02:58):
out and travel and see some of the world.
And that's what I did. And meeting people in different
cultures and just experiencing different ways of being really
open my eyes and it it invigorated me again and made me
want to write. So I was thinking I would become
a journalist, which is not exactly what happened.
But I ended up finding my way toAustralia and I did get my
(03:20):
master's degree there in journalism.
But while I was getting that degree, I basically just fell
back in love with writing stories and decided it was time
for me to try to write a novel. I think I was 25 and I thought,
OK, now is the time, let's see if I can do it.
And I think part of what took meso long is that I had it in mind
(03:41):
that I needed to write these literary, large literary tomes
of the kinds that I was enjoyingin college.
And it was finding my way back to genre, really finding my way
back to magic and back to fantasy, that really helped me
to find my voice in writing. So yeah, I wrote for about, oh
gosh, a decade. I think I wrote four or five
(04:03):
manuscripts. They were all set in our world
with a bit of a magical twist. So lots of speculative fiction.
And Night Birds was actually my first straight fantasy novel.
And when I started writing that book, something really just
clicked into place for me. And I found my home and fantasy.
It was wonderful to get to make up my own rules, my own world.
And yeah, there was just something about it that felt
(04:25):
right. So yeah.
And here I am. That's a great story.
It's interesting, like we alwayssay, like travel broadens the
mind where it literally does, doesn't it?
Like when you get out there and you see all these different ways
of living your life, it does fill you with inspiration.
I mean, what have you got? Any favorite places that you've
travelled to? Oh, so many, I mean, my travels
(04:48):
were definitely part of the inspiration for Night birds.
The the setting of the city of Simta was very inspired by
Venice. I've been to Venice a couple of
times and I think you can definitely see Venice in that
setting. Also New Orleans, which is a
city I've always loved. I just love the the feeling and
the the culture there. And a little bit of my now
hometown of Melbourne, Australia, they have my city has
(05:12):
a lot of winding secret lanewaysand teen noodle bars tucked
between, you know, trash cans. And it's just a great city for
discovering secret treasures. So, yeah, it's hard to say
favorite places, but I mean, I did end up moving to Australia.
So I have to say that that is myfavorite places I've ever
travelled. Yeah, there you go.
Then it's like I say, it's just reinvigorate you with that
(05:35):
inspiration. And that's so great that you
found it. And journalism's a good one,
isn't it? Because you are dealing with
human stories day in, day out. So did you work as a journalist
for a while? You know, I never did work as a
journalist, but I did do during the course of my career, a lot
of reading, a lot of talking to people in the course of doing
assignments and projects. And I do love talking to people.
(05:58):
And I ended up being a teacher, a high school teacher for
several years, which is certainly not journalism, but I
feel like my degree in journalism kind of led me there
because I love interviewing people.
I love talking to people and just hearing their stories.
It always invigorates my own andand has me thinking, you know,
has me thinking in ways that I wasn't thinking before.
(06:19):
So I think reading a lot of goodjournalism was very
inspirational for me. But when push came to shove, I
realized that the pace of the world of journalism was too
intense for me. I don't know.
I think this is going to stress me out, being a journalist and
not sure it's for me. And I had actually taken a bunch
(06:40):
of classes in the course of my career in publishing as well
'cause I'd always been interested in the publishing
world and working on the other side of the desk.
And I ended up being an editor, a non fiction editor for quite a
long time. I did some work for National
Geographic. I've worked in house for a
couple of Australian publishers.So by the time I came around to
(07:00):
getting published myself, I had been on the other side of the
desk and I, I knew a lot of whatwent on in house, which was
really helpful for me in, in making the the whole process of
publishing a little bit less confusing and terrifying.
I have to. Say yeah, no, that's definitely
a good a good leg up there. So tell us about Night Birds.
(07:22):
And this is the the first book in the series Firebirds has come
out in at the end of August. So tell us a bit about that.
So Night Birds is set in a worldwhere magic is illegal.
So imagine a 1920s style prohibition, except instead of
on booze, it's on magic. And within this world there's a
(07:42):
group of girls called the Night Birds and they will give you a
special and rare form of magic with just a kiss for a price.
But first you have to find them.They're very exclusive club and
you need to know which ears to whisper in and which doors to
knock on to find them. Their identities are the city's
(08:03):
best kept secret. No one knows who they truly are
and these girls are relatively settled and happy in these
privileged roles. They're treasured by the great
houses where the sort of upper echelons of society who watch
out for them and take care of them.
But then they're, the system starts to unravel and their
(08:23):
identities start to be revealed and they learn that perhaps this
gilded world that they've been living in was actually a gilded
cage all along and they have to figure out what to do about it.
And I actually have a podcast ofmy own with my friend and fellow
author Amy Kaufman. It's called Pub Dates.
And this month we're doing a series of read along episodes.
(08:45):
So we're doing 4 different episodes where we basically
recap everything that happened in Night Birds.
So if you were picking it up forthe first time or you just want
a refresher, you can always hop over there and have a listen.
There you go. So the magic system sounds
really interesting. The Night Beds can pass on
temporary powers, is that right?Yes, yes.
So they can kiss someone and give them their magic, but it's
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only for a short time, maybe a acouple of days and then it'll
wear off. What kinds of abilities do they
offer? So they're all, I would call
them kind of a glamour or illusion abilities for the most
part. So Matilde, one of our
characters, can give you the ability to look like someone
else completely. You sound like them, you look
(09:28):
like them. So you can essentially take on
their identity for a short time,which, you know, can have all
sorts of uses, both nefarious and not.
Sayer, one of our other night birds, can give you the gift of
camouflage, so essentially make you invisible.
And ASA, our third night bird, has perhaps the most potent
power out of all of them. She gives you the ability to
(09:50):
manipulate and change someone else's emotions.
And you can argue that if you can manipulate someone's
emotions, you can change the waythey think and the way they act.
So, And they all have different relationships with being a night
bird, what that means, how comfortable they are with this
system. I mean, really, this is a story
about magical courtesans. That's what I was thinking as I
(10:13):
was writing it. They're giving away something
quite precious, something quite coveted, and they all have
different feelings about what that means.
It's really interesting and it'sso unique.
I've never come across anything like it.
And it's such a clever way of, of using magic because I always
like magic when it's limited. And this is a really good way of
(10:33):
doing it. But also it's, I imagine, like,
you had a lot of fun using that kind of system in the story as a
means of like critiquing the sort of idiosyncrasies of our
society. It was that one of the sorts of
driving forces behind the idea. I was.
So I actually have yet another podcast.
(10:55):
I've been running it for about 5years.
It's a history podcast called The Explores and it's
essentially about women in history.
So it's about time travelling back and finding out what life
was like for women of the past. And I was deep into the first
season of that show when I started writing Night Birds.
And it was really formative in what Night Birds became, I think
(11:17):
because I was reading a lot, especially about the 19th
century and what life was like for women in America and in the
Western world. I was reading about prostitution
and sex workers during the CivilWar.
And I just have always been fascinated by the fact that
courtesans throughout history could be some of the most
powerful women in their society.They were in a league of their
(11:40):
own. They had access to political
figures. They had a voice in a way that
very few women around them did. But they could also find
themselves in really precarious situations.
They were always kind of doing this high wire act where if they
were in dealing with really exclusive and rich clients who
(12:02):
could protect them, they could actually end up in a really
powerful position, but they could also end up in very
vulnerable positions. You know, it's it's being a
courtesan that is a role in which you can very easily be
exploited. And so I had that rattling
around in my head, and I had been thinking about this world
where magic was illegal, and what would it mean if there was
(12:22):
a prohibition on magic, and within this world, the most
potent and powerful magic was only wielded by women.
What would that look like? And so I took a lot of
inspiration from history, the 1920s, obviously, I call it a
1920s tinted fantasy because it definitely has 1920s vibes
culturally. But then we've got the
(12:44):
Renaissance. We've got kind of the Victorian
era in terms of the very patriarchal structure of the
society. And these girls are essentially
operating in a system where theythey they are protected, their
identities are protected. The whole idea behind the night
birds is these girls. So magic mostly runs through
(13:04):
these great house bloodlines. And when a girl manifests her
magic, she becomes a night bird for several years.
And the at the end of her service, she will marry someone
rich and influential and sort ofof her choosing.
Although is he unclear, a littlebit murky, and you know she's
going to have a rich and gilded life and pass her magic on to
(13:27):
the next generation of women. And Matilde, one of her main
characters, he's very indoctrinated in the system.
Her grandmother was a night bird.
She comes from a long line of them and she thinks this is
fine, there's no problem with the system.
But the other two girls, Sayer and ASA, have come from outside
the great houses. Ones come from a far-flung
islands. The other has come from
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essentially like the other side of the tracks.
She, her mother was a night birdwho fell from grace and she's
experienced life outside the protective glow of the great
houses. So she is very jaded and brings
a very different perspective andreally makes Matilde question
the whole book is questioning these structures of power,
(14:08):
especially structures of power controlled by men.
Who are they really meant to protect and to preserve?
And, and these girls basically keep running up against that
over and over and over. So yeah, I would say just loving
history and reading about history and women in history was
one of my biggest inspirations. Yeah, that's fantastic.
And the way you've explored it as well and and like challenge
(14:32):
it with a new story. I think we I was interviewing
writer called Manda Scott and she's just right, a similar kind
of story that's sort of challenging these these things
and it's I feel like it's becomemore important than ever know
and now we've made progress, butI don't think we've done enough.
And I think writers should definitely start tackling it
(14:53):
more in the stories, even if it's on like a not as focal a
points. And what do you think?
Do you think there's more of a need to do this kind of thing or
just depend on the story that you're trying to tell?
I I absolutely think there is a need.
I want people to read my story and be entertained, but I also
want them to read night birds and see a reflection of our
(15:15):
world, the injustices in our world.
I mean, most of the things that the girls experience, the small
injustices are things that I experienced or one of my friends
experienced growing up. The way the double standards,
the just the things that women experience in the world with
many frustrations and and limitations that they still
(15:35):
experience. I think it's easy to say we've
come a long way from where we once were.
And it's true, we have. But I think there's still a lot
to say about the way we've builtour our society and who it
benefits and who it doesn't. I mean, you know, the
prohibition in my book is based very much on the 1920s.
That was only about 100 years ago.
(15:57):
And while, and, and if you look at that history, you can see
that prohibition didn't really hurt the wealthy because they
could afford to pay bribes and get around it.
It created this really seedy underworld, criminal underworld
that you could argue was not good for Americans, especially
their major cities. And the people who really
suffered under prohibition were often the poor and the
(16:20):
marginalized. And isn't that so often true?
It's still true of many, many ofthe laws and rules that we
create today. So yeah, I absolutely think that
every book is a reflection of the world we're living in in
some way. And I think we all need to be
grappling with what our world looks like and what should we
change. And I think that's what's
(16:41):
wonderful about fantasy, especially young adult fantasy.
Is it creates this almost safe space to talk about really
serious issues? I mean, when I was writing
Firebirds, the sequel, Roe Versus Wade had just been
overturned in the States. I was thinking a lot about that
and women's bodily autonomy and rights and that absolutely, you
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know, if you read the book, you'll see that has worked its
way right into Firebirds. Lots of questions about agency
and about a woman's power over her own body and her own
choices. I think we should be grappling
with this stuff. And when you do it in fantasy,
it creates this safe place to play with it.
It doesn't feel as pointed. And so you can ask big questions
(17:25):
that I think can be tougher to ask in a contemporary piece.
Yeah, and sometimes just framingit in a different way and or
tell it in a telling it in a story for it just it can connect
with people on in different waysand people absorb things and
information in different ways too.
Don't. They yeah, that's right, yeah.
(17:46):
So tell us about Firebirds. Firebirds.
Well, I got accused by many readers with Night Birds of
writing a cliffhanger. I didn't think it was a
cliffhanger. I thought it was a gentle but
steep slope down to the sea, so there were a lot of threads
certainly left dangling at the end of Night Birds, lots still
(18:07):
to explore. And I was just so excited.
I'd never written the sequel before, never written more than,
you know, a stand alone. And so it was a it was a big
challenge, but a really excitingchallenge to get to continue to
play around in this world and tosee what else my characters were
going to do. So in the Firebirds, you see
(18:28):
that essentially the the night bird system has been revealed.
These girls cannot return to thelife that they were living
before. And the stakes have been raised
because now in night birds, mostof society didn't know that
girls with magic existed, were athing.
Now everybody knows. And So what does that you know?
(18:48):
What does that mean? What does that look like?
How do people react? So you have the powers that be
trying to control them, trying to create registries and getting
girls to sign up for them. You have the church.
The church is violently anti magic and thinks that any girls
with magic should be at best brought in for questioning, at
(19:08):
worst killed. Historically that's what they
did with witches. And then you have the people who
are really divided on what to dowith girls with magic.
And so the night birds now feel a responsibility to they're all,
well, not all of them, but some of them are in a form of hiding.
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And they're all trying to figureout basically what is their role
in what happens next. You know, is it should they
stand up for all girls with magic and try to create a safer
world for them? Or do they just try to take care
of themselves? They have a lot of problems that
they need to tackle and at the end of Night Birds, all of the
girls are separated essentially kind of physically and
(19:51):
emotionally, and they have to work their way back to each
other. So yeah, we've got some, a lot
of, I like to call them my bad daddies.
We have a lot of bad man villains in Book 2 that we need
to deal with. We have a foreign king who, that
wasn't one of my first ideas I had about the sequels.
I knew I wanted some foreign king who was.
Lusting after magic. He doesn't have it where he
(20:13):
lives. It only is in the Udaean
Republic where the story is set and he wants it.
And so we're going to have him trying to invade.
So we're going to have to deal with a foreign threat.
But you also have lots of internal threats.
There is a, as I was talking about before, I was very
inspired by real life with this.There is a new drug circulating
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the city that perhaps has the power to essentially take away a
girl's agency and to force her to wield her magic, however the
person who drugs her wills. So it's kind of like a magical
date rape drug a little bit. So very nefarious.
It's it's darker than the first book.
I think it's darker. It's a little grittier.
(20:54):
But we also get to see the girlsdo really Big Magic.
We get to kind of see them finally become, you know, these
magical, magical entities like own their power and really come
into that power. That's very cool.
So when you're when you were writing, we're supposed going
back to mic beds for this question book and characters
(21:17):
that the three mic beds play a huge role in this.
So you tell us a bit about your character creation process.
When I when the idea first came to me, there was a short time
when I thought the story was going to be single point of
view. Matilde was the first character
to come to me, and I think in many ways she's the main
(21:37):
character. She is the institutionalized
night bird who comes from a longline of them.
And I think she has in some waysthe most to learn out of all the
girls she has to really, she's sheltered.
She's kind of a sheltered rich girl who doesn't really know how
the other half lives, and she learns eventually.
(21:59):
But her voice was really strong to me.
And so I thought, OK, well, I can see her and I think that
she'll make a great point of view character.
But I very quickly realized I wanted to tell a story about how
you can see a system like the night bird system from different
angles and in different ways. And so I knew, OK, and it's also
(22:19):
a story about sisterhood. It's a story about the bonds
that these girls form and the power that can be found in
female friendship especially. And so I, I knew that the other
night birds needed to have theirown voices and their own
opinions. And so from there I thought,
well, who would make a good foilfor Sayer?
Pardon me, who would make a goodfoil for Matilde?
(22:40):
And the first one to come to me was Sayer, because she is very
much like Matilde. She comes from a great house
family. They really could have lived
very similar lives. But Sayers took a left turn
because her mother was essentially kicked out of the
system. She was almost exiled.
And so Sayer has grown up in a really gritty part of the city,
(23:01):
and she has just lived a very different life from Matilde.
And she's very resentful of the night bird system.
And she forces Matilde to confront that perhaps it doesn't
protect its girls as well as it pretends to, and that it's more
exploitative than Matilde wants to admit.
And then we have ASA. So ASA is the, she's the out
really the outsider. She's the fish out of water.
(23:24):
She comes from a small country town.
She's very nervous about magic. And I wanted a character who had
moral qualms about her magic andusing her magic.
The church in my world preaches that magic is not magic, is
holy. It is not meant to be used by
just any old person, and especially not by women.
(23:45):
They corrupt it and they make itdark and they twist it.
And she has grown up with this in her ear at church every
Sunday. And so when she becomes a night
bird, she has tons of moral qualms that, you know, what does
it mean to give my magic away tosomeone else?
Will it corrupt to me? Will it corrupt to them?
Is this, is this morally? Is this OK?
Is this the right thing to do? The other two girls don't worry
(24:08):
about that too much, but I thinkthe three of them together
create a really interesting dynamic because they are such
different characters. And so yes, I started with
Matilde and built out from her and thought about what kinds of
characters would really challenge Matilde and would also
challenge the reader to think about this world and this system
(24:29):
in a completely different way. And I love writing a multi POV
book. This is, I think the first time
I've written the three points ofview and I just fell in love
with it. It's, and the book is written in
third person, which I think helped to create a unified voice
for the book. But they all do have their
different perspectives and voices and ways of seeing the
(24:50):
world. And I really loved being able to
transition between them. Yeah.
It's, it's interesting that you say that like because I always
like to play around with different perspectives, but give
characters that uniqueness as well.
So how did you approach that? Like how did you sort of try and
make each one unique whilst maintaining that sort of overall
(25:12):
narration? Yeah.
I mean, I do think it helped that it's in, it's in third
person present. So the narration feels cohesive
because it's all in third personrather than first.
But I I thought a lot about their origin stories, where they
came from. So ASA comes from the
illashiles. So she grew up speaking a
different language than Sarah and Matilde.
(25:34):
And I knew and she grew up in a basically a very Ireland esque
coastal islands community. And I wanted that reflected in
everything she did. So, you know, she's had to learn
a new language to come to the city.
And so we see how she's just notquite as comfortable as the
other two girls, not as comfortable in her own skin, but
(25:56):
certainly not in her environment.
I tried to, I made-up a little bit of the Ilish language, which
was so fun. I'm sure it would not stand up
if a linguist, you know, got in there and actually looked at it.
But yeah, I tried to incorporatejust little pieces of home into
her storyline and into her voiceand how she would look at
(26:16):
things. So there's lots of Ilish lore
and there are bits of Ilish language.
Whereas Sayer, who grew up in a gritty part of the city, she has
a lot of friends who are gang affiliated basically.
So in my world there are lots ofSandpiper gangs.
So think like 1920s style criminal gangs.
And that's reflected as well in her vernacular and language and
(26:40):
the way she sees the world. She always carries a knife.
She's very distrustful because she's learned to be distrustful.
And so when she walks into a ballroom, she sees a bunch of
people whose pockets she could pick and people who might.
Are they a threat to her or are they not?
Whereas Mathilde, that doesn't even cross her mind because
she's grown up so sheltered and so safe that she thinks she owns
(27:01):
the world. She sees the world as a as a
game that she's winning, you know?
So yeah, thinking about their backgrounds, where they came
from and how that would change their world view and and kind of
reflect their point of view, that really helped me to make
sure that they felt distinct. Nice, great advice.
The world sounds really interesting, 1920s prohibition
(27:24):
era. How did you use also approach
the creation of that? And one question I always think
it's really important is how didyou reveal that in a way that
wasn't info dumpy? It was always a big problem for
writing. Well, I'll tell you there's a
reason why Night Birds is rathera thick book.
(27:45):
There's a lot of world building to do.
I think I was about probably 20%of the way through drafting
Night Birds before it hit me, Oh, this is a prohibition story.
That's what this is. This is a world where magic is
illegal and it's created this underworld and it's I, I, I
don't know, I, I didn't start out with that idea.
(28:08):
I think I, it was always swirling in the back of my mind,
but I didn't really intentionally sit down and do
any research on the 1920s beforeI started writing.
But once I realized that's what I was doing, I knew I stopped.
I ended up watching a documentary by Ken Burns called
Prohibition. And I took all of these notes
about, OK, what did this law actually do?
(28:31):
Who did it impact? What were its ripple effects,
you know, its pros and cons. How did people think about it?
And then after I was done, I took my notes and I crossed out
everywhere. I put alcohol, and I wrote magic
instead. And I thought, OK, what here
works and what here excites me and what doesn't.
(28:52):
And that was really, really helpful in framing my
prohibition and figuring out, for my purposes, you know, what
what translates from what actually happened in the 1920s
into my world and makes sense for the story I'm trying to
tell. So yeah, I just, I've always
been really interested in what happens when you make something
illegal and you drive an underground.
(29:13):
And again, some of this goes back to my historical research
around sex work and prostitution.
I mean, they're just such wild stories about what has happened
when prostitution has been made illegal in the United States,
for example, during the Civil War.
You know, wherever you have war,you have sex work.
(29:33):
It's just the way it is. Soldiers need something to do in
their downtime, I suppose. And it got so bad in some places
in the South that they ended up because it was illegal.
All these people were getting diseases.
It was a bad situation. And so the Army ended up in
certain places making it legal and kind of bringing it back
into the light and saying, OK, well, if you want to for a
(29:54):
woman, if you want to engage in sex work, you need a special
license and you have to go to a doctor once a week and be
tested. And it actually really benefited
these women because they had somewhere to go.
If a soldier treated them badly,they had someone to complain to.
They had regular check UPS. And then of course, as soon as
the war was over, you know, everything was that was all over
(30:15):
and it was illegal again. So, but I've always just been
really interested in what happens when you make something
illegal. It doesn't go away.
Often when you're talking about alcohol, like the 1920s, booze
didn't go away just because it was illegal.
It just created this really vibrant underground, which, I
mean, we read about it now and it's like, oh, that seems very
(30:36):
glamorous. But it had a lot of dark sides
as well, created this criminal underworld, lots of gang
violence, and it also meant thatbooze wasn't regulated very well
and so you had a lot of bootleg that could kill people.
And a lot of lot of like legitimate, like sorts of
innocence, hard working people would be criminals overnight
because they might have been working in a distillery or
(30:59):
brewery and then next thing theycan't do that anymore.
And I mean, I always think the progression on drugs has been
one of the most damaging things to society.
Nixon kicked it off in the 70s going on a lot longer than that,
but it created as long. Have you ever seen the wire and
my favorite TV show what? It just captures the impact so
(31:21):
well because it's all about ripple effects.
It's a create. If you declare war on something
that prohibition, it creates deals in them attitudes and then
next thing you know, like it's, it's the people against the
state and the state to to in through the hours of the people
that are the police who are enforcing it.
(31:42):
And then it's almost like we look at it in America now with
the student protest. It's like minister as police.
It's it's insane. Like the level of of of sorts of
it is like war. That's what it feels like,
domestic war and against the people that they're meant to be
(32:02):
protecting. And that's like one example of
what prohibition can do. Yeah.
So it's it's amazing, like exploring it.
Yeah, I tried to touch on all ofthat in the series.
I mean, you have a a police called the wardens who were the
ones who were supposed to be policing prohibition.
But most of prohibition in my world is policed by the church,
which as you can imagine, is problematic on a couple of
(32:25):
different fronts. And I also tried to show how
this criminal system impacted people differently.
So you have girls like the nightbirds who are sheltered and
protected and live in a world ofmoney.
And then you have the everyday person who, you know, you take
some bad bootleg and it can ruinyou for life.
You also have in my world, So there's intrinsic magic, which
(32:47):
is what the night birds have, and then you have alchemical
magic. So if you have the right
knowledge and tools, you can make certain kinds of magic
alchemically. And one of our main characters,
Alec Padano, is, is something ofa rogue alchemist.
He brews many illegal things. And if he got caught, he might
be hung, He might go to the gallows.
(33:08):
Whereas, you know, Mathilde is protected by layers of wealth
and privilege. And they are very friends.
But something that they argue about a lot is exactly that, you
know, he tries to tell Mathilde,you need to look beyond your
world and see what's happening out here.
Because for US average folk, this is a dangerous game and
these rules are unfair and they unfairly punish those who need
(33:32):
these things most. And you need to open your eyes
and see it. And so that's a lot of what the
story is about is challenging that system and how it can be
corrupted and who it hurts. Nice, All the more reasons to
read. I think so.
I think so. Definitely.
So really we're out of time, butone question I would like to ask
(33:53):
is about your experiences navigating the world of
publishing. A lot of authors who and writers
who listen to the show always have lots of questions about
this, these kind of things like agents and editors and
publishers. So what experiences and insights
have you got to share, Keith? Gosh.
Well, you know, it took me about, I'd say 10 years of
(34:14):
trying seriously to get an agentand then get a book deal.
So, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to take you
that long, but it might. It's all about perseverance.
I think no matter where you are in your publishing career,
you're going to hear no a lot. Even when you've been published,
you still hear no. And you have to be ready to feel
(34:35):
those Nos and to not let it knock you back too much.
You know, to be able to just keep going and keep writing and
knowing that one no, doesn't mean that it's over and that,
you know, you can't have a career in writing.
So yeah, I mean, I just, I just as I was working other jobs,
other careers, I just kept writing away, trying to hone my
craft and my voice. And yeah, I think I was 5
(34:59):
manuscripts in. I was 4 manuscripts in when I
got an agent. And I was lucky in a way because
I think I had queried with my third agent.
So I just sent out lots of, you know, letters trying to find an
agent for my third manuscript and I did not get an agent.
So I was like, well, all right, that sucks, but let's keep
going. So I wrote the next thing.
(35:20):
And with my 4th manuscript, I had a bunch of critique partners
actually, who had been kind of forged the path ahead of me and
had already gotten agents and gotten published.
And a couple of them were with the same agency, Adams Literary.
And they're typically close to submissions, so they only really
(35:41):
take authors on referral. And I was lucky enough that they
put me in touch and I was able to pitch my 4th book to Josh
Adams, who is now my agent, and he loved it.
And yeah, I'll never forget the feeling of having that phone
call with an agent and thinking,all right, it's happening.
This is really happening. So I think a lot of authors,
(36:03):
aspiring authors struggle at that point at the trying to get
an agent point. You know, you do need an agent
today. I, I think it's, it's hard.
I shouldn't say you absolutely need an agent, but I do think
you, you want one if you can getone.
And that can be a really big hurdle.
And I think all you can do is just keep going knowing that
it's almost like dating, you know, in, in a way, it's like
(36:26):
authorial dating. You have to find the right fit
for you, and the agent really gets you and gets your work and
is excited to help you put it out into the world.
So yeah, once I got an agent, I remember thinking, OK, that's
it, I have an agent, so now I'm going to get published.
That's the next step. So we took my manuscript out on
submission, and while we got lots of positive feedback, in
(36:52):
the end, nobody, no publisher, picked it up.
And I was really surprised by this.
I don't think I was properly prepared for the fact that this
happens all the time with debut authors, but also more seasoned
authors. I have friends who have put out
published 3 books, 8 books, 10 books, and they still sometimes
get proposals and manuscripts knocked back and not picked up
by publishers. So I think, as I said before,
(37:15):
you have to be prepared that there are always going to be
setbacks. But I was very surprised by
that. I think that was the biggest
surprise for me was like, what do you mean no one wants to
publish my my delightful novel? But yeah, luckily I was already
working on Night Birds and I hada decent chunk of that done.
And my agent just said just justfinished snipers and let's keep
(37:35):
going, you know? And so that's what I did.
You just you focus on the next project, I think.
And one of my biggest pieces of advice would be not to sit on
one project too long. I think my 4th manuscript, for
many different reasons, I was working on it for probably four
years. And you can get really bogged
(37:56):
down in your own story, in your own head if you sit on something
too long and you become really precious about it, and it's
really hard to let go. So yeah, I was glad that I had
another very different project waiting in the wings that I
could pick up and run with, and luckily that one did get
published. So it's a wild roller coaster of
an industry, but if you want to,it's wonderful too.
(38:19):
I mean, it's been an incredible experience publishing Night
Birds. My publisher, Penguin in the US
have been just fantastic. They've given me so much love
and my editor has been wonderfulto work with.
And I feel very lucky, but it's hard too.
It's it's hard. You know, Firebirds was the
first book I wrote under deadline, under contract and
under deadline, and that was like a whole new challenge to
(38:42):
try to meet those deadlines. It can be really hard.
But yeah, I think it's been mostly wonderful, but it's taken
a lot of hard work and perseverance.
I think you just don't, don't get discouraged.
One person's no is another person's hell yes.
Yeah, that's great advice. And I think the key word there
is perseverance. It's there's a lot of lows and
(39:03):
you just got to keep keep powering through and trust that
it'll all pay off. Absolutely.
I will. OK.
Thank you very much for chattingwith me tonight.
Yeah, absolutely. Lovely learning all about you.
You're right. And I'm particularly inspired by
what inspires you. It's, it's, it's been really
(39:23):
lovely hearing all about it. Well, it's been wonderful
chatting with you. I appreciate you having me on
the show. No problem.
Where's the best place for anyone who wants to learn a bit
more about you and your writing to go and look?
Well, you can always go to my website which is Kate J
armstrong.com and there are lotsof links there to my my podcasts
(39:46):
as well. So if you want to hear me
talking in depth about writing, probably the best place to go is
Pub Dates, which is my podcast with Amy Kaufman.
We take readers behind the scenes on publishing night
birds. So you can hear all about
basically in real time as I was editing and working on publicity
and marketing. And then the book came out, you
(40:06):
know, that's it's a it's a cool glimpse behind the scenes of how
a book gets made. We talk about cover design and
maps and just all sorts of stuff.
So if you're a fantasy lover anda writer, that is the place to
go. And there's also my history
podcast, the Explores, where I talk not as much about writing,
but I certainly talk a lot abouthistory and where I get my
(40:28):
inspiration. Nice.
I think you should come back on and talk all about some being a
female historical figures. I like to talk all about that
kind of stuff. It's it's great inspiration.
I'd say it's it's helped inspireyour stories.
So yeah, if you'd like to come back on, we'll we'll cover that
as well. I would love to except once you
(40:49):
get me talking about that. Well, thank you Kate, again,
it's been lovely. Shout out with you and thank you
everyone for listening at home.
Thank you for listening to the Fantasy Risers Tool Shed.
If you'd like to join our writing community on Discord and
get access to fantasy writing classes and books on Patreon,
check the links in the description.
And if you don't want to miss any future episodes, be sure to
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quick rating on Spotify or iTunes and share this episode on
(00:23):
social media or with anyone who you think may be interested.
Thank you very much for listening.
Enjoy the show. Thank you for listening to the
Fantasy Writers Tour, Shed. I'm your host, Richie Billing,
(00:45):
and I'm delighted to be joined by author Kate J Armstrong.
Kate, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here. Thank you very much for joining
me. If you're a little bit
unfamiliar with Kate, debut novel Mike Birds was published
by Penguin in 2023 is a great acclaim and the second book in
the series, Firebirds comes out in August of this year.
(01:06):
Very exciting as well. Yeah.
So we're going to talk all aboutboth books today and while we do
so, we'll zoom in on the crafty things we love so much, like
creating characters and Watts and well, building and the magic
system is very interesting in inthese stories as well.
So definitely want to pick your brains about that.
But I always like to start from the beginning when we speak with
(01:29):
authors on the show. So tell us about UK.
How did you get into writing? Well, I've always, I imagine
everyone says this, but you know, I feel like I've always
been a writer. I've always been scribbling
since for as long as I can remember.
I think when I was younger, I wrote short stories mostly about
Dragons and epic poetry. And I got to high school and was
(01:51):
mostly writing poetry. And then I went to college and I
was getting an English degree inliterature.
And the problem with getting a degree in literature, I, I
found, is that the more you readthe great books and, you know,
the great writers, the more you start to get a complex about how
nothing I could possibly be thisgood.
(02:13):
And so I, I think I kind of psyched myself out in the years
when I was in college, I was still writing, but I, I had
never written anything longer than a short story.
I think when I was maybe 14, I'dwritten like 4 chapters, the
beginning of a novel. And I still to this day really
love writing beginnings. And everything after that is a
but yeah, I think then I graduated from college and I
(02:36):
didn't want to start working right away.
I was like, what else can I do? So I saved a bunch of money and
I went backpacking, which, you know, I live in Australia now,
and every Australia, every Australian I talk to is like,
yes, you went travelling after college, right?
That's what we all do. And that wasn't the case for
Americans. All my friends were like, you're
doing what? But yeah, I wanted to just get
(02:58):
out and travel and see some of the world.
And that's what I did. And meeting people in different
cultures and just experiencing different ways of being really
open my eyes and it it invigorated me again and made me
want to write. So I was thinking I would become
a journalist, which is not exactly what happened.
But I ended up finding my way toAustralia and I did get my
(03:20):
master's degree there in journalism.
But while I was getting that degree, I basically just fell
back in love with writing stories and decided it was time
for me to try to write a novel. I think I was 25 and I thought,
OK, now is the time, let's see if I can do it.
And I think part of what took meso long is that I had it in mind
(03:41):
that I needed to write these literary, large literary tomes
of the kinds that I was enjoyingin college.
And it was finding my way back to genre, really finding my way
back to magic and back to fantasy, that really helped me
to find my voice in writing. So yeah, I wrote for about, oh
gosh, a decade. I think I wrote four or five
(04:03):
manuscripts. They were all set in our world
with a bit of a magical twist. So lots of speculative fiction.
And Night Birds was actually my first straight fantasy novel.
And when I started writing that book, something really just
clicked into place for me. And I found my home and fantasy.
It was wonderful to get to make up my own rules, my own world.
And yeah, there was just something about it that felt
(04:25):
right. So yeah.
And here I am. That's a great story.
It's interesting, like we alwayssay, like travel broadens the
mind where it literally does, doesn't it?
Like when you get out there and you see all these different ways
of living your life, it does fill you with inspiration.
I mean, what have you got? Any favorite places that you've
travelled to? Oh, so many, I mean, my travels
(04:48):
were definitely part of the inspiration for Night birds.
The the setting of the city of Simta was very inspired by
Venice. I've been to Venice a couple of
times and I think you can definitely see Venice in that
setting. Also New Orleans, which is a
city I've always loved. I just love the the feeling and
the the culture there. And a little bit of my now
hometown of Melbourne, Australia, they have my city has
(05:12):
a lot of winding secret lanewaysand teen noodle bars tucked
between, you know, trash cans. And it's just a great city for
discovering secret treasures. So, yeah, it's hard to say
favorite places, but I mean, I did end up moving to Australia.
So I have to say that that is myfavorite places I've ever
travelled. Yeah, there you go.
Then it's like I say, it's just reinvigorate you with that
(05:35):
inspiration. And that's so great that you
found it. And journalism's a good one,
isn't it? Because you are dealing with
human stories day in, day out. So did you work as a journalist
for a while? You know, I never did work as a
journalist, but I did do during the course of my career, a lot
of reading, a lot of talking to people in the course of doing
assignments and projects. And I do love talking to people.
(05:58):
And I ended up being a teacher, a high school teacher for
several years, which is certainly not journalism, but I
feel like my degree in journalism kind of led me there
because I love interviewing people.
I love talking to people and just hearing their stories.
It always invigorates my own andand has me thinking, you know,
has me thinking in ways that I wasn't thinking before.
(06:19):
So I think reading a lot of goodjournalism was very
inspirational for me. But when push came to shove, I
realized that the pace of the world of journalism was too
intense for me. I don't know.
I think this is going to stress me out, being a journalist and
not sure it's for me. And I had actually taken a bunch
(06:40):
of classes in the course of my career in publishing as well
'cause I'd always been interested in the publishing
world and working on the other side of the desk.
And I ended up being an editor, a non fiction editor for quite a
long time. I did some work for National
Geographic. I've worked in house for a
couple of Australian publishers.So by the time I came around to
(07:00):
getting published myself, I had been on the other side of the
desk and I, I knew a lot of whatwent on in house, which was
really helpful for me in, in making the the whole process of
publishing a little bit less confusing and terrifying.
I have to. Say yeah, no, that's definitely
a good a good leg up there. So tell us about Night Birds.
(07:22):
And this is the the first book in the series Firebirds has come
out in at the end of August. So tell us a bit about that.
So Night Birds is set in a worldwhere magic is illegal.
So imagine a 1920s style prohibition, except instead of
on booze, it's on magic. And within this world there's a
(07:42):
group of girls called the Night Birds and they will give you a
special and rare form of magic with just a kiss for a price.
But first you have to find them.They're very exclusive club and
you need to know which ears to whisper in and which doors to
knock on to find them. Their identities are the city's
(08:03):
best kept secret. No one knows who they truly are
and these girls are relatively settled and happy in these
privileged roles. They're treasured by the great
houses where the sort of upper echelons of society who watch
out for them and take care of them.
But then they're, the system starts to unravel and their
(08:23):
identities start to be revealed and they learn that perhaps this
gilded world that they've been living in was actually a gilded
cage all along and they have to figure out what to do about it.
And I actually have a podcast ofmy own with my friend and fellow
author Amy Kaufman. It's called Pub Dates.
And this month we're doing a series of read along episodes.
(08:45):
So we're doing 4 different episodes where we basically
recap everything that happened in Night Birds.
So if you were picking it up forthe first time or you just want
a refresher, you can always hop over there and have a listen.
There you go. So the magic system sounds
really interesting. The Night Beds can pass on
temporary powers, is that right?Yes, yes.
So they can kiss someone and give them their magic, but it's
(09:07):
only for a short time, maybe a acouple of days and then it'll
wear off. What kinds of abilities do they
offer? So they're all, I would call
them kind of a glamour or illusion abilities for the most
part. So Matilde, one of our
characters, can give you the ability to look like someone
else completely. You sound like them, you look
(09:28):
like them. So you can essentially take on
their identity for a short time,which, you know, can have all
sorts of uses, both nefarious and not.
Sayer, one of our other night birds, can give you the gift of
camouflage, so essentially make you invisible.
And ASA, our third night bird, has perhaps the most potent
power out of all of them. She gives you the ability to
(09:50):
manipulate and change someone else's emotions.
And you can argue that if you can manipulate someone's
emotions, you can change the waythey think and the way they act.
So, And they all have different relationships with being a night
bird, what that means, how comfortable they are with this
system. I mean, really, this is a story
about magical courtesans. That's what I was thinking as I
(10:13):
was writing it. They're giving away something
quite precious, something quite coveted, and they all have
different feelings about what that means.
It's really interesting and it'sso unique.
I've never come across anything like it.
And it's such a clever way of, of using magic because I always
like magic when it's limited. And this is a really good way of
(10:33):
doing it. But also it's, I imagine, like,
you had a lot of fun using that kind of system in the story as a
means of like critiquing the sort of idiosyncrasies of our
society. It was that one of the sorts of
driving forces behind the idea. I was.
So I actually have yet another podcast.
(10:55):
I've been running it for about 5years.
It's a history podcast called The Explores and it's
essentially about women in history.
So it's about time travelling back and finding out what life
was like for women of the past. And I was deep into the first
season of that show when I started writing Night Birds.
And it was really formative in what Night Birds became, I think
(11:17):
because I was reading a lot, especially about the 19th
century and what life was like for women in America and in the
Western world. I was reading about prostitution
and sex workers during the CivilWar.
And I just have always been fascinated by the fact that
courtesans throughout history could be some of the most
powerful women in their society.They were in a league of their
(11:40):
own. They had access to political
figures. They had a voice in a way that
very few women around them did. But they could also find
themselves in really precarious situations.
They were always kind of doing this high wire act where if they
were in dealing with really exclusive and rich clients who
(12:02):
could protect them, they could actually end up in a really
powerful position, but they could also end up in very
vulnerable positions. You know, it's it's being a
courtesan that is a role in which you can very easily be
exploited. And so I had that rattling
around in my head, and I had been thinking about this world
where magic was illegal, and what would it mean if there was
(12:22):
a prohibition on magic, and within this world, the most
potent and powerful magic was only wielded by women.
What would that look like? And so I took a lot of
inspiration from history, the 1920s, obviously, I call it a
1920s tinted fantasy because it definitely has 1920s vibes
culturally. But then we've got the
(12:44):
Renaissance. We've got kind of the Victorian
era in terms of the very patriarchal structure of the
society. And these girls are essentially
operating in a system where theythey they are protected, their
identities are protected. The whole idea behind the night
birds is these girls. So magic mostly runs through
(13:04):
these great house bloodlines. And when a girl manifests her
magic, she becomes a night bird for several years.
And the at the end of her service, she will marry someone
rich and influential and sort ofof her choosing.
Although is he unclear, a littlebit murky, and you know she's
going to have a rich and gilded life and pass her magic on to
(13:27):
the next generation of women. And Matilde, one of her main
characters, he's very indoctrinated in the system.
Her grandmother was a night bird.
She comes from a long line of them and she thinks this is
fine, there's no problem with the system.
But the other two girls, Sayer and ASA, have come from outside
the great houses. Ones come from a far-flung
islands. The other has come from
(13:48):
essentially like the other side of the tracks.
She, her mother was a night birdwho fell from grace and she's
experienced life outside the protective glow of the great
houses. So she is very jaded and brings
a very different perspective andreally makes Matilde question
the whole book is questioning these structures of power,
(14:08):
especially structures of power controlled by men.
Who are they really meant to protect and to preserve?
And, and these girls basically keep running up against that
over and over and over. So yeah, I would say just loving
history and reading about history and women in history was
one of my biggest inspirations. Yeah, that's fantastic.
And the way you've explored it as well and and like challenge
(14:32):
it with a new story. I think we I was interviewing
writer called Manda Scott and she's just right, a similar kind
of story that's sort of challenging these these things
and it's I feel like it's becomemore important than ever know
and now we've made progress, butI don't think we've done enough.
And I think writers should definitely start tackling it
(14:53):
more in the stories, even if it's on like a not as focal a
points. And what do you think?
Do you think there's more of a need to do this kind of thing or
just depend on the story that you're trying to tell?
I I absolutely think there is a need.
I want people to read my story and be entertained, but I also
want them to read night birds and see a reflection of our
(15:15):
world, the injustices in our world.
I mean, most of the things that the girls experience, the small
injustices are things that I experienced or one of my friends
experienced growing up. The way the double standards,
the just the things that women experience in the world with
many frustrations and and limitations that they still
(15:35):
experience. I think it's easy to say we've
come a long way from where we once were.
And it's true, we have. But I think there's still a lot
to say about the way we've builtour our society and who it
benefits and who it doesn't. I mean, you know, the
prohibition in my book is based very much on the 1920s.
That was only about 100 years ago.
(15:57):
And while, and, and if you look at that history, you can see
that prohibition didn't really hurt the wealthy because they
could afford to pay bribes and get around it.
It created this really seedy underworld, criminal underworld
that you could argue was not good for Americans, especially
their major cities. And the people who really
suffered under prohibition were often the poor and the
(16:20):
marginalized. And isn't that so often true?
It's still true of many, many ofthe laws and rules that we
create today. So yeah, I absolutely think that
every book is a reflection of the world we're living in in
some way. And I think we all need to be
grappling with what our world looks like and what should we
change. And I think that's what's
(16:41):
wonderful about fantasy, especially young adult fantasy.
Is it creates this almost safe space to talk about really
serious issues? I mean, when I was writing
Firebirds, the sequel, Roe Versus Wade had just been
overturned in the States. I was thinking a lot about that
and women's bodily autonomy and rights and that absolutely, you
(17:03):
know, if you read the book, you'll see that has worked its
way right into Firebirds. Lots of questions about agency
and about a woman's power over her own body and her own
choices. I think we should be grappling
with this stuff. And when you do it in fantasy,
it creates this safe place to play with it.
It doesn't feel as pointed. And so you can ask big questions
(17:25):
that I think can be tougher to ask in a contemporary piece.
Yeah, and sometimes just framingit in a different way and or
tell it in a telling it in a story for it just it can connect
with people on in different waysand people absorb things and
information in different ways too.
Don't. They yeah, that's right, yeah.
(17:46):
So tell us about Firebirds. Firebirds.
Well, I got accused by many readers with Night Birds of
writing a cliffhanger. I didn't think it was a
cliffhanger. I thought it was a gentle but
steep slope down to the sea, so there were a lot of threads
certainly left dangling at the end of Night Birds, lots still
(18:07):
to explore. And I was just so excited.
I'd never written the sequel before, never written more than,
you know, a stand alone. And so it was a it was a big
challenge, but a really excitingchallenge to get to continue to
play around in this world and tosee what else my characters were
going to do. So in the Firebirds, you see
(18:28):
that essentially the the night bird system has been revealed.
These girls cannot return to thelife that they were living
before. And the stakes have been raised
because now in night birds, mostof society didn't know that
girls with magic existed, were athing.
Now everybody knows. And So what does that you know?
(18:48):
What does that mean? What does that look like?
How do people react? So you have the powers that be
trying to control them, trying to create registries and getting
girls to sign up for them. You have the church.
The church is violently anti magic and thinks that any girls
with magic should be at best brought in for questioning, at
(19:08):
worst killed. Historically that's what they
did with witches. And then you have the people who
are really divided on what to dowith girls with magic.
And so the night birds now feel a responsibility to they're all,
well, not all of them, but some of them are in a form of hiding.
(19:29):
And they're all trying to figureout basically what is their role
in what happens next. You know, is it should they
stand up for all girls with magic and try to create a safer
world for them? Or do they just try to take care
of themselves? They have a lot of problems that
they need to tackle and at the end of Night Birds, all of the
girls are separated essentially kind of physically and
(19:51):
emotionally, and they have to work their way back to each
other. So yeah, we've got some, a lot
of, I like to call them my bad daddies.
We have a lot of bad man villains in Book 2 that we need
to deal with. We have a foreign king who, that
wasn't one of my first ideas I had about the sequels.
I knew I wanted some foreign king who was.
Lusting after magic. He doesn't have it where he
(20:13):
lives. It only is in the Udaean
Republic where the story is set and he wants it.
And so we're going to have him trying to invade.
So we're going to have to deal with a foreign threat.
But you also have lots of internal threats.
There is a, as I was talking about before, I was very
inspired by real life with this.There is a new drug circulating
(20:33):
the city that perhaps has the power to essentially take away a
girl's agency and to force her to wield her magic, however the
person who drugs her wills. So it's kind of like a magical
date rape drug a little bit. So very nefarious.
It's it's darker than the first book.
I think it's darker. It's a little grittier.
(20:54):
But we also get to see the girlsdo really Big Magic.
We get to kind of see them finally become, you know, these
magical, magical entities like own their power and really come
into that power. That's very cool.
So when you're when you were writing, we're supposed going
back to mic beds for this question book and characters
(21:17):
that the three mic beds play a huge role in this.
So you tell us a bit about your character creation process.
When I when the idea first came to me, there was a short time
when I thought the story was going to be single point of
view. Matilde was the first character
to come to me, and I think in many ways she's the main
(21:37):
character. She is the institutionalized
night bird who comes from a longline of them.
And I think she has in some waysthe most to learn out of all the
girls she has to really, she's sheltered.
She's kind of a sheltered rich girl who doesn't really know how
the other half lives, and she learns eventually.
(21:59):
But her voice was really strong to me.
And so I thought, OK, well, I can see her and I think that
she'll make a great point of view character.
But I very quickly realized I wanted to tell a story about how
you can see a system like the night bird system from different
angles and in different ways. And so I knew, OK, and it's also
(22:19):
a story about sisterhood. It's a story about the bonds
that these girls form and the power that can be found in
female friendship especially. And so I, I knew that the other
night birds needed to have theirown voices and their own
opinions. And so from there I thought,
well, who would make a good foilfor Sayer?
Pardon me, who would make a goodfoil for Matilde?
(22:40):
And the first one to come to me was Sayer, because she is very
much like Matilde. She comes from a great house
family. They really could have lived
very similar lives. But Sayers took a left turn
because her mother was essentially kicked out of the
system. She was almost exiled.
And so Sayer has grown up in a really gritty part of the city,
(23:01):
and she has just lived a very different life from Matilde.
And she's very resentful of the night bird system.
And she forces Matilde to confront that perhaps it doesn't
protect its girls as well as it pretends to, and that it's more
exploitative than Matilde wants to admit.
And then we have ASA. So ASA is the, she's the out
really the outsider. She's the fish out of water.
(23:24):
She comes from a small country town.
She's very nervous about magic. And I wanted a character who had
moral qualms about her magic andusing her magic.
The church in my world preaches that magic is not magic, is
holy. It is not meant to be used by
just any old person, and especially not by women.
(23:45):
They corrupt it and they make itdark and they twist it.
And she has grown up with this in her ear at church every
Sunday. And so when she becomes a night
bird, she has tons of moral qualms that, you know, what does
it mean to give my magic away tosomeone else?
Will it corrupt to me? Will it corrupt to them?
Is this, is this morally? Is this OK?
Is this the right thing to do? The other two girls don't worry
(24:08):
about that too much, but I thinkthe three of them together
create a really interesting dynamic because they are such
different characters. And so yes, I started with
Matilde and built out from her and thought about what kinds of
characters would really challenge Matilde and would also
challenge the reader to think about this world and this system
(24:29):
in a completely different way. And I love writing a multi POV
book. This is, I think the first time
I've written the three points ofview and I just fell in love
with it. It's, and the book is written in
third person, which I think helped to create a unified voice
for the book. But they all do have their
different perspectives and voices and ways of seeing the
(24:50):
world. And I really loved being able to
transition between them. Yeah.
It's, it's interesting that you say that like because I always
like to play around with different perspectives, but give
characters that uniqueness as well.
So how did you approach that? Like how did you sort of try and
make each one unique whilst maintaining that sort of overall
(25:12):
narration? Yeah.
I mean, I do think it helped that it's in, it's in third
person present. So the narration feels cohesive
because it's all in third personrather than first.
But I I thought a lot about their origin stories, where they
came from. So ASA comes from the
illashiles. So she grew up speaking a
different language than Sarah and Matilde.
(25:34):
And I knew and she grew up in a basically a very Ireland esque
coastal islands community. And I wanted that reflected in
everything she did. So, you know, she's had to learn
a new language to come to the city.
And so we see how she's just notquite as comfortable as the
other two girls, not as comfortable in her own skin, but
(25:56):
certainly not in her environment.
I tried to, I made-up a little bit of the Ilish language, which
was so fun. I'm sure it would not stand up
if a linguist, you know, got in there and actually looked at it.
But yeah, I tried to incorporatejust little pieces of home into
her storyline and into her voiceand how she would look at
(26:16):
things. So there's lots of Ilish lore
and there are bits of Ilish language.
Whereas Sayer, who grew up in a gritty part of the city, she has
a lot of friends who are gang affiliated basically.
So in my world there are lots ofSandpiper gangs.
So think like 1920s style criminal gangs.
And that's reflected as well in her vernacular and language and
(26:40):
the way she sees the world. She always carries a knife.
She's very distrustful because she's learned to be distrustful.
And so when she walks into a ballroom, she sees a bunch of
people whose pockets she could pick and people who might.
Are they a threat to her or are they not?
Whereas Mathilde, that doesn't even cross her mind because
she's grown up so sheltered and so safe that she thinks she owns
(27:01):
the world. She sees the world as a as a
game that she's winning, you know?
So yeah, thinking about their backgrounds, where they came
from and how that would change their world view and and kind of
reflect their point of view, that really helped me to make
sure that they felt distinct. Nice, great advice.
The world sounds really interesting, 1920s prohibition
(27:24):
era. How did you use also approach
the creation of that? And one question I always think
it's really important is how didyou reveal that in a way that
wasn't info dumpy? It was always a big problem for
writing. Well, I'll tell you there's a
reason why Night Birds is rathera thick book.
(27:45):
There's a lot of world building to do.
I think I was about probably 20%of the way through drafting
Night Birds before it hit me, Oh, this is a prohibition story.
That's what this is. This is a world where magic is
illegal and it's created this underworld and it's I, I, I
don't know, I, I didn't start out with that idea.
(28:08):
I think I, it was always swirling in the back of my mind,
but I didn't really intentionally sit down and do
any research on the 1920s beforeI started writing.
But once I realized that's what I was doing, I knew I stopped.
I ended up watching a documentary by Ken Burns called
Prohibition. And I took all of these notes
about, OK, what did this law actually do?
(28:31):
Who did it impact? What were its ripple effects,
you know, its pros and cons. How did people think about it?
And then after I was done, I took my notes and I crossed out
everywhere. I put alcohol, and I wrote magic
instead. And I thought, OK, what here
works and what here excites me and what doesn't.
(28:52):
And that was really, really helpful in framing my
prohibition and figuring out, for my purposes, you know, what
what translates from what actually happened in the 1920s
into my world and makes sense for the story I'm trying to
tell. So yeah, I just, I've always
been really interested in what happens when you make something
illegal and you drive an underground.
(29:13):
And again, some of this goes back to my historical research
around sex work and prostitution.
I mean, they're just such wild stories about what has happened
when prostitution has been made illegal in the United States,
for example, during the Civil War.
You know, wherever you have war,you have sex work.
(29:33):
It's just the way it is. Soldiers need something to do in
their downtime, I suppose. And it got so bad in some places
in the South that they ended up because it was illegal.
All these people were getting diseases.
It was a bad situation. And so the Army ended up in
certain places making it legal and kind of bringing it back
into the light and saying, OK, well, if you want to for a
(29:54):
woman, if you want to engage in sex work, you need a special
license and you have to go to a doctor once a week and be
tested. And it actually really benefited
these women because they had somewhere to go.
If a soldier treated them badly,they had someone to complain to.
They had regular check UPS. And then of course, as soon as
the war was over, you know, everything was that was all over
(30:15):
and it was illegal again. So, but I've always just been
really interested in what happens when you make something
illegal. It doesn't go away.
Often when you're talking about alcohol, like the 1920s, booze
didn't go away just because it was illegal.
It just created this really vibrant underground, which, I
mean, we read about it now and it's like, oh, that seems very
(30:36):
glamorous. But it had a lot of dark sides
as well, created this criminal underworld, lots of gang
violence, and it also meant thatbooze wasn't regulated very well
and so you had a lot of bootleg that could kill people.
And a lot of lot of like legitimate, like sorts of
innocence, hard working people would be criminals overnight
because they might have been working in a distillery or
(30:59):
brewery and then next thing theycan't do that anymore.
And I mean, I always think the progression on drugs has been
one of the most damaging things to society.
Nixon kicked it off in the 70s going on a lot longer than that,
but it created as long. Have you ever seen the wire and
my favorite TV show what? It just captures the impact so
(31:21):
well because it's all about ripple effects.
It's a create. If you declare war on something
that prohibition, it creates deals in them attitudes and then
next thing you know, like it's, it's the people against the
state and the state to to in through the hours of the people
that are the police who are enforcing it.
(31:42):
And then it's almost like we look at it in America now with
the student protest. It's like minister as police.
It's it's insane. Like the level of of of sorts of
it is like war. That's what it feels like,
domestic war and against the people that they're meant to be
(32:02):
protecting. And that's like one example of
what prohibition can do. Yeah.
So it's it's amazing, like exploring it.
Yeah, I tried to touch on all ofthat in the series.
I mean, you have a a police called the wardens who were the
ones who were supposed to be policing prohibition.
But most of prohibition in my world is policed by the church,
which as you can imagine, is problematic on a couple of
(32:25):
different fronts. And I also tried to show how
this criminal system impacted people differently.
So you have girls like the nightbirds who are sheltered and
protected and live in a world ofmoney.
And then you have the everyday person who, you know, you take
some bad bootleg and it can ruinyou for life.
You also have in my world, So there's intrinsic magic, which
(32:47):
is what the night birds have, and then you have alchemical
magic. So if you have the right
knowledge and tools, you can make certain kinds of magic
alchemically. And one of our main characters,
Alec Padano, is, is something ofa rogue alchemist.
He brews many illegal things. And if he got caught, he might
be hung, He might go to the gallows.
(33:08):
Whereas, you know, Mathilde is protected by layers of wealth
and privilege. And they are very friends.
But something that they argue about a lot is exactly that, you
know, he tries to tell Mathilde,you need to look beyond your
world and see what's happening out here.
Because for US average folk, this is a dangerous game and
these rules are unfair and they unfairly punish those who need
(33:32):
these things most. And you need to open your eyes
and see it. And so that's a lot of what the
story is about is challenging that system and how it can be
corrupted and who it hurts. Nice, All the more reasons to
read. I think so.
I think so. Definitely.
So really we're out of time, butone question I would like to ask
(33:53):
is about your experiences navigating the world of
publishing. A lot of authors who and writers
who listen to the show always have lots of questions about
this, these kind of things like agents and editors and
publishers. So what experiences and insights
have you got to share, Keith? Gosh.
Well, you know, it took me about, I'd say 10 years of
(34:14):
trying seriously to get an agentand then get a book deal.
So, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to take you
that long, but it might. It's all about perseverance.
I think no matter where you are in your publishing career,
you're going to hear no a lot. Even when you've been published,
you still hear no. And you have to be ready to feel
(34:35):
those Nos and to not let it knock you back too much.
You know, to be able to just keep going and keep writing and
knowing that one no, doesn't mean that it's over and that,
you know, you can't have a career in writing.
So yeah, I mean, I just, I just as I was working other jobs,
other careers, I just kept writing away, trying to hone my
craft and my voice. And yeah, I think I was 5
(34:59):
manuscripts in. I was 4 manuscripts in when I
got an agent. And I was lucky in a way because
I think I had queried with my third agent.
So I just sent out lots of, you know, letters trying to find an
agent for my third manuscript and I did not get an agent.
So I was like, well, all right, that sucks, but let's keep
going. So I wrote the next thing.
(35:20):
And with my 4th manuscript, I had a bunch of critique partners
actually, who had been kind of forged the path ahead of me and
had already gotten agents and gotten published.
And a couple of them were with the same agency, Adams Literary.
And they're typically close to submissions, so they only really
(35:41):
take authors on referral. And I was lucky enough that they
put me in touch and I was able to pitch my 4th book to Josh
Adams, who is now my agent, and he loved it.
And yeah, I'll never forget the feeling of having that phone
call with an agent and thinking,all right, it's happening.
This is really happening. So I think a lot of authors,
(36:03):
aspiring authors struggle at that point at the trying to get
an agent point. You know, you do need an agent
today. I, I think it's, it's hard.
I shouldn't say you absolutely need an agent, but I do think
you, you want one if you can getone.
And that can be a really big hurdle.
And I think all you can do is just keep going knowing that
it's almost like dating, you know, in, in a way, it's like
(36:26):
authorial dating. You have to find the right fit
for you, and the agent really gets you and gets your work and
is excited to help you put it out into the world.
So yeah, once I got an agent, I remember thinking, OK, that's
it, I have an agent, so now I'm going to get published.
That's the next step. So we took my manuscript out on
submission, and while we got lots of positive feedback, in
(36:52):
the end, nobody, no publisher, picked it up.
And I was really surprised by this.
I don't think I was properly prepared for the fact that this
happens all the time with debut authors, but also more seasoned
authors. I have friends who have put out
published 3 books, 8 books, 10 books, and they still sometimes
get proposals and manuscripts knocked back and not picked up
by publishers. So I think, as I said before,
(37:15):
you have to be prepared that there are always going to be
setbacks. But I was very surprised by
that. I think that was the biggest
surprise for me was like, what do you mean no one wants to
publish my my delightful novel? But yeah, luckily I was already
working on Night Birds and I hada decent chunk of that done.
And my agent just said just justfinished snipers and let's keep
(37:35):
going, you know? And so that's what I did.
You just you focus on the next project, I think.
And one of my biggest pieces of advice would be not to sit on
one project too long. I think my 4th manuscript, for
many different reasons, I was working on it for probably four
years. And you can get really bogged
(37:56):
down in your own story, in your own head if you sit on something
too long and you become really precious about it, and it's
really hard to let go. So yeah, I was glad that I had
another very different project waiting in the wings that I
could pick up and run with, and luckily that one did get
published. So it's a wild roller coaster of
an industry, but if you want to,it's wonderful too.
(38:19):
I mean, it's been an incredible experience publishing Night
Birds. My publisher, Penguin in the US
have been just fantastic. They've given me so much love
and my editor has been wonderfulto work with.
And I feel very lucky, but it's hard too.
It's it's hard. You know, Firebirds was the
first book I wrote under deadline, under contract and
under deadline, and that was like a whole new challenge to
(38:42):
try to meet those deadlines. It can be really hard.
But yeah, I think it's been mostly wonderful, but it's taken
a lot of hard work and perseverance.
I think you just don't, don't get discouraged.
One person's no is another person's hell yes.
Yeah, that's great advice. And I think the key word there
is perseverance. It's there's a lot of lows and
(39:03):
you just got to keep keep powering through and trust that
it'll all pay off. Absolutely.
I will. OK.
Thank you very much for chattingwith me tonight.
Yeah, absolutely. Lovely learning all about you.
You're right. And I'm particularly inspired by
what inspires you. It's, it's, it's been really
(39:23):
lovely hearing all about it. Well, it's been wonderful
chatting with you. I appreciate you having me on
the show. No problem.
Where's the best place for anyone who wants to learn a bit
more about you and your writing to go and look?
Well, you can always go to my website which is Kate J
armstrong.com and there are lotsof links there to my my podcasts
(39:46):
as well. So if you want to hear me
talking in depth about writing, probably the best place to go is
Pub Dates, which is my podcast with Amy Kaufman.
We take readers behind the scenes on publishing night
birds. So you can hear all about
basically in real time as I was editing and working on publicity
and marketing. And then the book came out, you
(40:06):
know, that's it's a it's a cool glimpse behind the scenes of how
a book gets made. We talk about cover design and
maps and just all sorts of stuff.
So if you're a fantasy lover anda writer, that is the place to
go. And there's also my history
podcast, the Explores, where I talk not as much about writing,
but I certainly talk a lot abouthistory and where I get my
(40:28):
inspiration. Nice.
I think you should come back on and talk all about some being a
female historical figures. I like to talk all about that
kind of stuff. It's it's great inspiration.
I'd say it's it's helped inspireyour stories.
So yeah, if you'd like to come back on, we'll we'll cover that
as well. I would love to except once you
(40:49):
get me talking about that. Well, thank you Kate, again,
it's been lovely. Shout out with you and thank you
everyone for listening at home.
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