May 13, 2025 • 47 mins
Award-winning YA author Sarah Arthur returns to the Toolshed to discuss her brilliant new book, Once A Castle.
Sarah also shares her experiences following the release of her debut YA novel (Once A Queen), what it was like writing book two, and how theme has played such an important role in the writing of both.
We also discuss Artificial Intelligence (AI) creeping into the writing world, and Sarah provides her expert insights into what 2025 holds for the world of Young Adult fantasy fiction.
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ABOUT SARAH ARTHUR
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/authors/2216828/sarah-arthur/
ONCE A CASTLE
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/213618161-once-a-castle
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/707441/once-a-castle-by-sarah-arthur/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
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(00:23):
social media or with anyone who you think may be interested.
Thank you very much for listening.
Enjoy the show. Thank you for listening to the
Fantasy Writers Tour Sheds. I'm your host, Richie Billing.
(00:45):
And today I'm delighted to be joined once again by the
brilliant best selling author, Sarah Arthur.
Sarah, welcome back to the show.Oh, it's so great to be here.
We had so much fun last time andI'm looking forward to it.
Thank you. I'm.
Delighted that you've decided tocome back.
It was like a brilliant chat andwe spoke all about your YA novel
Once Queen, about its unique portal based magic systems.
(01:09):
And what was really interesting is how it's sort of multiple
fantasy worlds within our own world.
So it's quite, really interesting and we've got loads
of positive comments, really loads of interesting listeners.
Like I mentioned to you before, it was off the bottom.
People love turtle fantasy, Theyreally do.
(01:31):
Yeah, that's so that's fine. We found our people.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
So how's it been since the firstbook came out?
Yeah, so so the first book came out at the end of January last
year, 2024. Once a queen.
And she's had a just absolutely brilliant run of just, I had a
wonderful time. And probably the best thing that
(01:53):
happened was the book got on theradar of a huge reading movement
here in the US called the Read, Read Aloud Revival.
And once those families got a hold of that book there it
became part of it was folded into their summer reading
program. So they had, they usually do
like 3 book clubs and one is foryounger kids and they read like
(02:16):
a collection of fairy tales and they called it was called Fairy
Tale Summer. And Sarah McKenzie is the one
who heads it up. So the littles all read a
collection of fairy tales and then middle grade readers read
Wing Feather Saga, or at least the first Wing Feather book,
which is published also by my publisher.
It's a middle grade fantasy series by Waterbrook Multnomah
(02:37):
through Penguin Random House. And then they chose once a Queen
as the read for the moms, which I thought was really
interesting. So the moms have a book group
and in my mind it's like 12 people, you know, getting on,
but no, there were like 700. There were like 700 people that
were like like tuning in as I was being interviewed by Sarah
(02:58):
this and it made for a best seller in in YA for the market I
write for. And then it was nominated for,
it was a Christie Award finalist, which in the market I
write for is like one of the highest honors for fiction for
(03:19):
YA. So yeah, it's been just actually
like, whatever dream you could want.
The only thing I didn't get was like a Newberry or something,
but that's fine. Still plenty of time.
Well, congratulations. Thank you.
Very well deserved as well. Like I know you've put a lot of
work into it and I suppose it just speaks to like your
expertise as a why a fiction writer.
(03:42):
You just understand younger people, don't you?
And I suppose that's why so manypeople were able to relate to it
and enjoy it and. Well, and I wrote it.
I wrote it for the 14 year old that I was, you know, my main
character's 14 and and I think that a lot of people as adults,
that's still an age group that they like that that that
(04:06):
Madeline Lengle would say she was the author of A Wrinkle in
time. I'm all the ages I have ever
been, but she often wrote for the age that she really still
resonated with inside herself. So a lot of her fiction was, you
know, that kind of younger teen.It's not the really
sophisticated YA that's dealing with like adult themes
(04:29):
necessarily. It's much more as those kids are
making the turn from childhood to into young adulthood.
It's like that, that liminal space where they just aren't
sure who they are yet. Their stuff.
They don't want to give up from their childhood yet become
adults, but they also know they have to become adults.
So that's that's my space too, that I seem to inhabit and I
(04:52):
find but like the moms in this in this book club just loved it
and they, you know, read it withtheir daughters and with their
sons and passed it on, you know,to their neighbors and friends.
So that was really lovely. It's for all of it.
Yeah. What do you think the biggest
thing that you learned from it all was?
(05:14):
Well, it was really interesting to do the interview with the
book club and they had so many questions about different
aspects of the book that that tome weren't as important.
But like, to them, it became this huge thing.
Like they were really interestedin the topiaries, which are just
(05:36):
sort of these like sculpted yew trees that dot the landscape of
the estate of Caracal in England, where once a queen, the
first book takes place. Oh, and the publisher calls them
the Caracal novels now because they almost always start there.
And then you end up having, you know, experiences of these other
worlds and then you always like end up back there so that the
(05:58):
house is almost like this hub, almost like AI don't know, like
a, a place between worlds where stuff happens.
But they were, you know, they, they were like really into the
asking me about the topiaries. And I was like, well, originally
they were statues. And my publisher was like,
that's too much like the White Witch's palace in Narnia.
(06:19):
And I was like, yeah, 'cause there's no statues in any other
fairy tale and fantasy literature.
Like, have you read it's Enchanted Castle?
No. OK, so it was just I, you know,
so we were just like, OK, well, topiaries then we're just gonna.
So these poor moms were like, wealso, we like, drove to a
different state to go to this Manor house that has topiaries.
(06:42):
And I was like, did you take pictures?
I wanna see it, but it it's it'sfunny to me because, you know,
in 100 years when the English professor is sitting in the
class with Richie Billings best selling fantasy story and is
saying now what did Richie do here?
Do you see? Notice what he did with this
coffee mug? This coffee mug is really,
(07:04):
really important. It's that theme just carries
through the whole book and from,you know, distant heaven.
You're like, yeah, no, it was no, it was just a narrative
device. I was just trying.
To move this. Next theme that I, I got a big
kick out of that actually, because you realize like, huh, I
wonder how much importance they've put on stuff that shows
(07:25):
up and, you know, class work that I love.
And it really was just the author.
You know, but I suppose that's one of the best things about it
is that everyone finds somethingspecific that they reson like
that resonates with them essentially, and that they
they're drawn to it and for somereason or another and it's
(07:46):
always the things they don't really think about.
Well, and I didn't, I mean, in my mind, I'm not aware
necessarily of how much these details are, are part of the
world building and part of the that feeling of having entered a
real space. So I don't want to take that
lightly. You know, like I want, I want
to, everything should matter. You know, it made me realize
(08:09):
like I probably should have thought a little more about
these topiaries and how they work and like what what role
they play. Yeah, did you?
So move on to book 2? Did the topiaries feature?
No, no, I couldn't. I, I could not figure out what
to do with them. In fact, I should probably.
No, they're in there. I think they're mentioned, but I
(08:34):
mean, I'd already basically written the book by the time I
did the book club, you know, book.
I'd written Book 2 Once a Castleby the time I sat down with
these moms to talk about Once a Queen, And by that point I'm
like, yeah, has to. Go back and rewrite.
Right. But I'm working on book three,
once a crown. So another, I think big surprise
(08:56):
is like how many loose ends I had left that I didn't realize
I'd left that I've got to now tie up these threads, no pun
intended, because weaving is a big theme.
So, yeah, I think I was doing that to, like, hedge my bets the
first time around. Like you could do a story about
this. You could do a story about this.
(09:16):
This could play a role. This is mysterious.
We're just going to leave that there.
It'll be a, you know, blind alley.
And then. But now that I've got them all
written down in one space, I'm like, this is a mess.
What? What was I?
Yeah, no. What was I so.
What was it like then like rightin the second stage?
Because I you mentioned that there was quite a few more
points of view characters. In this so once a queen is told
(09:40):
first person from the perspective of the 14 year old
girl from the US that comes overto England and spends the summer
with her British grandmother that she has met for the first
time that summer. So it's Cara call.
It's very mysterious. She's learning all of these
mysterious things about other worlds and her grandmother's
potential involvement in those worlds.
(10:01):
But towards the end of the book,I introduced some younger
characters. She has a good friend named
Frankie and his siblings. You know, I'm making sure that
they're you're getting to know them a little bit so that by the
time you get to book 2, now we have I very unwisely ended up
with five points of view. And they're not, it's not in
(10:21):
first person. It's like limited omniscient
third person. But we've got several of
Frankie's siblings now. So Tilly, who is his the next
sibling in the order, she's like16, has a big crush on Lord
Edwards middle son Charles who attends the nearby elite
(10:45):
boarding school and then her their middle brother Jack who's
like 15. And of course if you have a
Jack, you have to have a giant. So yes, but he doesn't have a
POV. And then there's Elsbeth, who is
like the next to youngest and her little brother.
Their little brother Georgie shows up, but he doesn't have
(11:07):
APOV. But then there's also a
character from Ternival, which is the fairy tale world.
Her name is Zara. And then there's Arash, who is
the grandson of the Rastagar families.
They're refugees from Iran who have opened up a tea shop and a
bookshop in the village of UpperWolverne, where the Addison
family, Frankie's siblings, are all from.
(11:29):
So we still see Frankie and Eva,but I thought it'd be kind of
fun to see Eva like in third person, like what her, you know,
what people who see her and knowher think of her and, and who
she is and how she acts. So that was kind of fun.
It's quite a powerful device though, isn't it?
I find it's like showing, like you say, just showing the reader
(11:52):
how all the characters think andfeel about a character.
I think that's one of the best ways to characterize actually.
Well, then you have different, like, really, really different
perspectives. I mean, Jack, the middle child,
he's just been crushed by this, you know, five siblings, right?
And he's in the middle. He just wants to be left alone.
(12:14):
Elizabeth and Tilly, who are theonly two girls in the family,
are kind of at each other's throats now.
Elizabeth, who's 12, is like annoyed with Tilly for growing
up and leaving her behind and giving more attention to this
cute boy instead of to her, you know, her only sister.
And Arash is, we learn along theway has experienced some trauma
(12:37):
as a refugee and how that has limited his.
Like he he very much feels only safe around his family.
So not only is he thrust out of Upper Wolverine, which is
already foreign to him, but he'snow, you know, they they all end
up having adventures in Ternivalwhere like, at least for Arash,
(13:04):
he still feels like the odd man out because he's clearly not of
European descent like a bunch ofthe other characters, but he's
like, how am I still the odd manout?
There's literally a dwarf right there and there's literally a
Centaur who's like a guy from the waist up and a horse from
the waist down. And I'm still the weirdo this,
you know, like he's suspected asbeing like from a foreign
(13:28):
country that has always been at war with ternival, etcetera.
So it's like you're it's taking the things that are their
struggles in this world and amplifying them through through
the door, through a different ina different world and realizing
like they've brought all their problems with them.
So it's, you know, it's not the place.
(13:49):
These are things they have to resolve.
There are people they need to apologize to.
There are people that they, you know, there are ways Arash needs
to claim his voice. There's you know, so there's and
the fun part is like I introduced Jack, but then you
see him through Arash's perspective, right?
And we see inside Arash's mind, but then he's viewed from Zara's
(14:13):
perspective from Terra Noval andall that kind of fun stuff.
So. It seems like thematically it's
a very, very strong thematicallyin terms of like what you're
exploring in the story. What are the kinds of themes did
you have it was that you set outto explore?
When you're thinking about this,because you've got so many
(14:35):
brilliant different perspectives, it sounds like
it's something that you wanted to to dive into.
Yeah, the part, well, part of the challenge, I mean, and maybe
we talked about this before, butI, I love classic fairy tales
and fantasy literature. It's, you know, I was sort of
(14:58):
brought up on all of that. And so CS Lewis and Jr.
Tolkien and E Nesbitt and a lot of the European fairy tales and
revisiting some of those in the past decade, I've begun to
realize like, OK, so, so there are ways that that women, for
instance, in CS OS and Tolkien are they're, they're perceived
(15:22):
in a particular way, that particular role to play.
And while Aon is a wonderful sort of like reversal of a bunch
of tropes in The Lord of the Rings, you know, my son's in
watching the films over Christmas break when she pulls
her helmet off and is like, you know, with an ask, well, like I
am no man. They were like, and I was like,
(15:44):
that's right. Those are the sons I'm raising
in this world. And I realized, like, that
should not be a scene that's like few and far between.
Like there's there should be ways that we see Queens being
really prominent and we have thereturn of the king in The Lord
of the Rings. What if we have Queens
(16:07):
returning? What if we have, you know,
storylines that really feature women?
So the first book, Once a Queen was really me both giving an
homage to those classic authors and also arguing with arguing
with them a bit. And they're dead, so they can't
argue back, which is great because I would not survive
Louis anyway, who is an expert debater.
(16:30):
But I, I was trying to, you know, really push the idea that
that you can, you can track this, the story of a realm
through its Queens. You cannot tell the story of
British history without its three longest reigning monarchs.
So it's like, how do we how do we do that without sounding
(16:53):
angry, snippy, you know, and I don't want to do that and make
like my sons feel small, right? Like that, as if because their
stories matter too, right? So how do we how do we do that
in a way that's expansive instead of like descriptive and
(17:13):
narrow? So then it wants a castle.
Now with these five perspectives.
It was really fun for me becausePersianate characters like this
family from Iran and then Zara who in ternival she too is
descended of refugees to ternival and they have kind of a
(17:37):
Persianate history that you realize begins to develop over
the course of the story. The so because we have those
characters in it and I am, as you can see, very blonde, blue
eyed, you know, woman of European descent for whom this
would be a very gutsy and perhaps stupid move to write
(17:57):
from that perspective. Because, you know, we're
supposed to write what we know, right?
The publisher has sensitivity readers or like authenticity
readers that they will get the manuscript to.
And mine both books so far, Oncea Queen and Once a Castle have
been read by this wonderful betareader named Cyrus.
(18:22):
And his his input on the Persianate characters has been
so heartening to me. After the first book, I was
like, OK, he really thinks I cando this like this is amazing.
So and then he's reading Once a Castle and I'm giving Arash and
(18:43):
Zara as much air time as these people of European descent.
And yeah, they're the strangers,right?
They're the ones like, how did their storylines, you know, work
with all of this? And it was delightful for him to
name what I was trying to do. He was the first one of all my
(19:04):
editors and everybody to say, I get it.
You are. How did he I I should pull up
his what he said. So get the wording right.
But essentially, he said, in a lot of Western fantasy
literature, people of southern climates of dark, darker skinned
(19:27):
people are often painted as siding with, you know, evil,
right. So the South coming in, in Lord
of the Rings, you have, you havethe, the southern with the
Oliphants and it's all very, youknow, person and slash, Turkish
slash. I mean, and these, these were
(19:48):
the fairy tales that Lewis and Tolkien read growing up was the
the stuff that was forged duringthe Crusades.
And so it's like that shaped a lot of European fairy tales as
they developed in the 12th and 13th centuries.
So Cyrus was like, I see what you're doing.
You're giving them just as much air time as the European
(20:10):
characters. And by the end, you realize you
can't tell the one story withoutthe other, and that royal lines
run through through all of thesefamilies and that they are, in
fact, you can't tease them apart.
By the time we get to the end ofthe story, and as one reviewer
(20:31):
said in Goodreads, she was like,I gasped aloud multiple times.
Because it's not what you're expecting.
You're expecting those characters to be like extra
tropes that are just there to kind of affirm the royal lineage
of whoever and like, you know, Idon't know, be the loyal
sidekicks. And he he was just so grateful
(20:55):
that I didn't. And he's like, I have a feeling
we're going to be in in their world eventually, in the
kingdoms they come from. And I'm like, yes, once a crown.
Once a crown. So when you said also write this
book, did you have a in mind what kind of themes you want to
tackle? Or is that something that I
mean, how do you approach theme generally, because it is
(21:15):
something that a lot of writers find tough and you have a great
ability to nail it. And I think why a as a whole, it
seems to place more emphasis on themes and teachable things that
like young people can take away and and use and buy the life.
(21:35):
Yeah, it's hard to do that without like smashing people
over the head too with like hair.
And a lot of yai think I don't actually really resonate with a
a ton of it, in part because it can be so issues driven.
It's often very issues and it's stuff that that is really
(21:58):
important and it's giving it, it's amplifying voices that have
not been heard that need to be heard.
And I, I do resonate with that part of it.
Some of the more adult themes inYA.
I'm like, oh, come on, just let kids be kids, right?
Like like they'll like, none of these themes were invented by
teenagers. You know, drugs and sex and all
(22:20):
that. Like, like adults invented that
shit. Sorry, invented that stuff.
My bad. Feel free at it.
I don't care. It doesn't bother me.
Might bother my publisher, but it doesn't bother me.
They, you know, teenagers didn'tinvent that stuff.
So there are other things they care about.
They care about family relationships.
(22:41):
They care about the siblings. They care about making a
difference in the world. They want to be heard, but not
like to become like the the iconof some sort of cause.
Not necessarily. So it's so so it's kind of
bringing it down to those familyrelationships.
That was really important to me to continue to to focus on that.
(23:05):
And I'm trained theologian, so Ican't write without digging into
deeper themes. You know, I'm just, I think like
we talked about last time, it's that sense of other world, of
another world breaking in on this one, that we're not alone
in the universe that, you know, as we are experiencing life and
(23:27):
its events unfold, we're beginning to sense that there's
like there's some sort of plot that we're part of that we're
that we get to have a role in and actually matters, that it
means something more than just our birth and death date, death
dates on a headstone. That's that's really important
to me. And I want kids to experience
(23:48):
that sense of of being part of astory that began before they got
here and will continue long after they're gone.
Yeah, it's, it's a special thingto be able to do, isn't it?
It's lovely and it comes out of having worked with teenagers for
years and seeing, especially with stories like how much it
(24:09):
unlocks for them. It's just they're we're all
still kids with a kind of wide eyed wonder and you don't have
to give that up just because yougrow up, you know?
I, I really agree with what you said before.
I think it was the quote that you are every age you've been,
but there's just that one particular age that you always
(24:32):
go back to in your mind and in your heart, because I suppose it
might be in the happiest time orperiods is how we've got the
most fondest memories. Well.
Yeah. Interesting, isn't it?
Those vanishing Saturday mornings where you could just
wake up and read until somebody came.
Like, have you had breakfast? Yeah, it's like 11:00 AM and
(24:54):
you're like still in your jammies, but you're almost the
Rivendell. Yeah, there you go.
Don't stop me now. What do you think the biggest
challenge was in writing the second book compared to the
first? Oh yeah, probably the time
crunch. I think maybe we've talked the
(25:17):
first time about how once the Queen unfolded over decades,
like it really the seed of the idea came very early to me in my
writing career, but I didn't make the shift till fiction with
I I didn't make that till once the Queen came out 20 years
after my first non fiction book.And so I had all of that time to
(25:38):
like, you know, many, many layers and iterations of the
story, but once a castle and nowonce a crown, I'm just cranking
these things out. And turns out I'm a little more
like Tolkien than Lewis. Lewis could just, he just dashed
stuff off. It was ridiculous.
(25:59):
Tolkien, you know, he he's he said at one point it's a curse
having an epic temperament and aage devoted to snappy bits.
Yeah. And I think that that's, you
know, I think I have an epic temperament.
So it's hard to collapse the theway the just kind of marinating
(26:20):
in a story while you're folding laundry or going on a walk or
riding on the bus. Like there's stuff that happens
in your imagination when you're not actually writing it and when
you have to, when you have to sit down and write it with such
a terrible turn around crunch time is can be kind of stifling
actually. So how?
How long did you get to to do? The second book, yeah, it was
(26:45):
due last August. Well, no, no, we're talking
about, oh, I'm writing the thirdbook right now, which was due
last August. So it's kind of a similar time
frame. I missed my deadline for book 2
and, but I would say the bulk ofit I cranked out in about 3
months and it's, it's over 100,000 words.
(27:06):
So the I, I had to, I wanted to get to for book three.
I was like, I cannot have 5 PO VS I cannot do that, not do this
again. So I did I, I, it took me a
while. So I had to figure out how to
shrink it down Once a crown is going to be 3PO VS but there's a
new character still and like anyway, I'm it's exhausting.
(27:32):
I don't recommend any ACE at all.
Yeah, so. I think.
A lot of people do it who do these like list series where one
comes out every year or even 2. I don't know.
I don't know how they do. It, I don't know, it's like a
mental trick, isn't it? Just to sort of, I don't know,
almost like not worry about whatyou're writing as much.
(27:54):
Just trust in yourself. It's incredible.
Yes, trust yourself and get the story out.
There's nothing to edit at leastlike, you know, just get it out.
There is a there is a writing mentor.
Her name is Jessica Brody and she does a kind of master class
(28:15):
on fast drafting through the writing mastery Academy, I think
it's called. And it's all online, but I did
I, it's like you watch videos and then there's these like
worksheets and things as you're working on your book like that
you're, you're doing. And the fast drafting model was,
is, has been really fascinating.And I've been kind of doing a
(28:38):
hybrid version of that, which isbasically like you'd set timers,
like you write until the timer goes.
And then if you're on a roll, you set another timer and you
keep going, but you don't do more than like an hour at a
stretch. And then you give your brain the
chance to, you know, do other stuff 'cause it also needs that,
(28:59):
that downtime. And you don't, when you, when
you pick up the next day, you don't reread anything.
You just start right where you were and you keep going.
And if along the way you realizeyou need to make a change, like
you're gonna change a character's name or gender or
whatever, you make a note in themanuscript at the moment So you
(29:21):
don't go back and make all thosechanges because that's just
going to like derail the forwardmomentum.
You just make a note because future you is going to be
smarter than current you is the way she's spelled it.
And so just make a note you're changing their name.
And then when you do subsequent revisions, you can, that's when
you go in and you change their name through the whole draft and
(29:43):
you change whatever those details were that you realized
you needed to add. And so I'm doing a a variation
on that. Very, very well.
That's what I do as well, just no distractions until.
You get to in theory. Yeah.
In theory, yeah. But yeah, that sounds really
cool. It's it's.
(30:05):
It's going to exercise and I mean learning something new,
right? Like we're, it's like a math
class in, in a career that, you know, I thought I knew.
And lo and behold, there are other ways to do it.
Yeah, there's always something. These are learning and writing.
Absolutely. I love that about it.
Yeah. Yeah.
And you've got to stay open minded, haven't you?
(30:26):
And you've got to accept that the stories, new things up there
to learn. I always say because we, when we
recruit writers, because we haveto give them a lot of feedback.
And it's always the people who don't listen to the feedback
that basically don't stay in thejob.
And I always say to them, like the minute you stop or the
(30:47):
minute you think you know it allbasically is the minute you're a
bad writer, you become a bad. Writer because you just become.
Complacent you, you think you'reamazing, you don't need to go
back and edit stuff. It's bad, bad attitude to us.
Yes, yeah, yeah, my challenge too.
Well, and maybe this has been like, I think this has been a
(31:11):
boon actually for writing this quickly is I will write, I will
read even the fast drafted versions to my sons in the
evenings. And they're 14 and 11 now.
And and their feedback has been really great because 14 year old
boy is, is like, he doesn't careabout your emotions at all.
(31:33):
Like he doesn't care. He's gonna just say what he
thinks and, and and they're going to point out when things
are cringe. And this is good because this is
my readership, but it has also, I think it has taught me to also
be like much more like aggressive with my edits.
(31:59):
Like they're, they're just, theyjust don't hold back.
So it's like I'm literally editing as we're, as I'm reading
it loud, realizing like, oh, this is not.
Yeah, no. So I mean, they've caught
everything from like unintentional innuendo to to
like, mom, you use that descriptive word a lot.
Can you, is there something elseyou can use me to go, You know,
(32:23):
type in synonyms for whatever. But yeah, yeah, really.
If you really if you really wantyourself to be edited within an
inch of its life, read it to teenagers.
There you go. Yeah, yeah, there's one final
question I've got for you. Just kid says the the the state
(32:47):
of publishing generally, particularly in white fiction.
And we're moving into a brand new year.
It's obviously being a bit of a turbulent one with like AI and
stuff like that. And as someone who's active in
the industry at the moment, what, what is it like for you as
we move into this new year? What is, have you noticed any
trends in the types of books that are coming out or the types
(33:09):
of messages that publishers are focusing on?
And what is going on in in YA in25/20/25?
Well, one trend I noticed that was or that I read about that
was really fascinating to me is the trend of the like publishers
(33:32):
will take one of their best selling backlist books.
Maybe it's like the first in a best selling series or it's like
the best loved of a detective series or something like that.
Or maybe it's a classic and they're doing these really high
design like gift collectible booklins of these books and and
(33:58):
it's almost like and and people already have like multiple
copies of these books. I mean, but this is the one,
this is this is the one that youreally want because it's the,
you know, it's the really detailed illustrated edition of
Harry Potter. Those have, I mean, you'll see
the OR like with the Lord of theRings, it'll be with some of the
(34:21):
original illustrations by Oh my gosh, who was the the
illustrator that did the stuff for the films for way to
workshop? Al Alan Lee.
Is that right, Alan Alan Lee, I think.
And so, so these, these, this isan interesting trend to me
because now we have AI capable of creating literary art.
(34:49):
And yet people are wanting almost like, it's like they're
wanting the treasured, actual, like, hold it in your hands,
real thing, like the actual bookin their hands.
They don't want to. That's not the Kindle edition.
It's the, it's, there's something about the aesthetic of
(35:10):
the physical object and its beauty as a work of art that is
in this digital age of like not being able to tell what is real
and fake arts and what is real and fake literary art, among
other. I mean, there's, there's all
kinds of, you know, ways that this is going, but people,
(35:31):
people want the real thing. And I think that's a fascinating
trend. I really do.
I've noticed that a lot as well.We've got a, a publisher, I
think a publisher, or maybe it'sjust a in a sort of specialist
printer and they're called the broken binding, I think it's
called. And they do like really artistic
(35:54):
fantasy books. Yeah.
Like the the page, the side of the pages are all painted and.
Looks amazing. Oh yeah, it's yeah, it's the
yeah, yeah. So.
So what used to have been like agold, gold.
Yeah. Up on the pages is an actual
work of art. Yes, yeah, yes.
(36:15):
That is fascinating to me. And then there's also this
movement. I'm gonna pull this book down.
So I wrote a book that was basically like my theology of
the imagination. Like, what role does the imagine
play in our kind of spiritual and moral formation?
It's called the God Hungry Imagination.
And the year that came out, my brother-in-law, who is a book
(36:40):
binder, took the part and and this is the book, this is the
paperback book. But he, he put it in, you know,
a, a real leather like handmade paper, marbled paper.
I mean, it's just an extraordinary piece and
(37:02):
beautifully stamped, you know, on the spine.
And then he did his own leather stamping there.
And his name's Phil Deloria. He and my sister have a farm in
northern Michigan called Fiddlehead Farm.
But but that, that, that, that to me, I'll be so curious to see
(37:30):
where this trend of like that, that hand, like the actual
artists having their hands on anobject that you then hold.
Yeah, as a kind of backlash against.
AI. The digital it's.
Quite a shame really, because obviously, oh, I'd say it's
probably a positive thing because if there's a demand for
(37:52):
it, which there is, the publishers are going to do it
because they're going to make more money selling a book for 30
LB instead of 10 LB. Yeah.
Which, yeah, they'll be delighted with that.
But if it keeps artists in work,that's a really good thing.
It probably gives artists more work, especially in a time where
(38:13):
people's jobs and livelihoods are threats.
Oh yeah. I mean, I started off as a
freelancer doing a lot of curriculum writing a lot of
curriculum for youth, you know, education.
And a lot of what I did could bedone by AI now.
(38:34):
And so there's a way that those freelance jobs are going away.
And so how does an artist keep something alive?
Like I would, I, it will be interesting to see if, if
there's this continued trend toward, back towards like actual
hand drawn illustrated, you know, books, not just digitally
(38:57):
drawn illustrations. Like what are what of these kind
of ancient art forms on how, howwill they stay known?
Like how won't I just, you know,I hate for some of us to get
lost. I sat down with my sons and I
(39:18):
know we need to wrap up, but we were, it's really interesting
'cause I, I basically sat them down and I said, 'cause my son
was given a whole huge beautifulset of like Sharpie markers of
all kinds of different colors bymy sister and brother-in-law.
And, and he's drawing Dragons and they're very like super
(39:38):
saturated colors and bright and he's having a great time.
I said, I'm so glad you're doingthis because you someday will
tell your grandchildren and great grandchildren that you
remember life before AI. You remember what it was like to
create your own stuff without a computer creating it for you,
You, you. Might be with some of the last
(40:02):
people who can tell the difference between a real work
of art and an AI generated work of art because you saw the real
stuff and you made the real stuff and don't stop making the
real stuff. And then we and then we talked
about like, how does how do we keep a crafter an art alive?
Like how do we not lose the ability to write a story, lose
(40:22):
the ability to draw a dragon? And so they were brainstorming
like, well, you know, we could do clubs where we get together
and we draw and we could, you know, they were trying to figure
out how do we not lose the ability to generate real art in
the world it. Could be a vague topic for any
(40:44):
series of novels. Yeah, I've been.
I've been thinking about that. Although I think that they need
to write them with me, which would be really, really
interesting. Yeah.
And then also I, I, I want to hear you describe again because
I missed some of the details about how do you mind talking
about how you did a soundtrack for your?
Yeah. So since we're on the sort of
(41:05):
subject. The title of the book when it
comes out. Yeah, so I know it's a bit
controversial using any part of AI, but I mean, I don't have
access to an orchestra, so for this one I thought it'd be OK I.
Do. Yeah.
So, yeah. So what I've done for this
(41:25):
novella, it's it's called Together We Rise and there's 8
characters with 88 parts of the story, 8 characters, and for
each character created a theme song.
And what the, the song is, it's like classic epic Lord of the
Rings style music, which you used in a tool called UDO to
(41:50):
create. You just kind of engineer it and
take it in the direction you want.
And what the reason why I decided to do this is because I
mean, we said before about how powerful music can be when it's
combined with other types of arts.
So we said Lord of the Rings andyou mentioned listening to the
(42:12):
the hover music. And yeah, before we before we
started recording, Yeah. Watching Lord of the Rings with
our songs over Christmas. And like, as the music is
starting, I look over at my husband and he and I are both
crying because these films were so important to us as newlyweds.
Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's like, it is so
powerful, isn't it? And it can elevate things to, to
(42:35):
new levels. So that's why I wanted to do it.
And well, one thing I was keen to do is to have songs that
match your mirror, the emotionaljourney that the character goes
through in each chapter. So.
So I thought that was quite cool.
And yeah, it just showed me the kind of things that you can do
(42:56):
now, isn't it? Was so was the book already
drafted at this point and this was like a way to or where was
it? Part of your journey of creating
these characters was to have to really zero in on on who they
are and what what their experience is.
Yeah, I think I, I kind of, I was drafting the book already
and then once I realised you could do this and then was
(43:17):
playing around with it and getting interesting results and
I was like, this is quite interesting and.
Well, and why not I? Think it does because.
I mean it's like illustrations, right?
I mean looking drew like so here's oh, wait, no, I mean he
this is this is his and the cover of the annotated Hobbit.
(43:40):
They have his full colour illustration of Smaug.
And then as I was trying to get a handle on what.
Oh well, it was when they were trying to figure out Jim Tierney
is the, the cover artist for my books once a Castle.
And he wanted to get a sense of what Zara looks like.
And I was like, well, then I, I was trying to find like an image
(44:03):
online and I just couldn't find it.
So I just drew her and, and I hadn't yet written most of the
scenes. You know, where like the the
full part of her story really starts to come out.
And there was something about drawing her that made her even
more real to me. And I wonder if the music maybe
(44:23):
kind of played that role for you.
It certainly makes it more cinematic when you're when
you're listening to the songs and then you're thinking about
what that character's doing. You visualize it quite strongly
and then you do feel your emotions.
And if it sort of triggers you abit, then you're like, I think
I'm, I'm quite close there. Yeah.
Well. It's sort of yeah.
(44:46):
And I write, I have very varioussoundtracks I write too.
But I did find it was really funny.
I did find myself more with Oncea Queen.
I was listening to more like yo-yo Ma and Tony Anderson.
I'd love he does a lot of digital, like sort of grand epic
(45:07):
soundtrack kinds of things. I was, I was listening to them
and, and I'd be like, oh, this is so sad and this is so feeling
all of these emotions. And then with once the castle, I
listen to a lot of like Pirates of the Caribbean.
This is more of an adventure story and I'd be like, man, they
do a lot of running in this book.
(45:27):
And, and I I think it is a powerful effect.
And, and I think the challenge too is if the reader isn't
listening to that same soundtrack, does the plot and
the storyline and the charactershit them in the same way that
it, I thought it was hitting right like that.
It affected me. But the fact that you created
soundtracks that other people will be able to listen to,
(45:48):
that's a whole like that is so cool.
Yeah, I know. I thought it might work quite
well. Yeah.
We'll see what happens. I'll send you.
I'll send you the book and you can see.
Yeah, I. Would love that.
I would love that, that'd be so great.
Yeah, awesome. Thank you very much.
It's been wonderful chatting with you again.
Oh. That's lovely.
(46:08):
As always, so great. Thank you.
Good luck with the release of Once the Castle.
Yeah, February 11th, Once the Castle.
Yeah. And then this time next year
we'll be doing Once a Crown. Yeah, come, come back and talk
about that one as well. I can't wait.
I'm so excited. I'm so excited.
You've been done them first. Oh my gosh, Dear Lord.
(46:31):
Where's the best place to learn more about you and to find out
more about the book? Yeah, I'm at saraharthur.com and
that's Sarah with an H and I'm also on various socials at Holy
Dreaming. Amazing.
I'll put all the links in the description.
Well, thank you very much Sir. It's been a pleasure, as always.
Awesome. I'm happy to writing to all the
(46:52):
listeners out there. Yeah.
Thank you very much everyone. That's in the whole everyone
speak to you soon. Ready.
Take care. Thank you.
Thank you for listening to the Fantasy Writers Tool Shed.
If you'd like to join our writing community on Discord and
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(00:23):
social media or with anyone who you think may be interested.
Thank you very much for listening.
Enjoy the show. Thank you for listening to the
Fantasy Writers Tour Sheds. I'm your host, Richie Billing.
(00:45):
And today I'm delighted to be joined once again by the
brilliant best selling author, Sarah Arthur.
Sarah, welcome back to the show.Oh, it's so great to be here.
We had so much fun last time andI'm looking forward to it.
Thank you. I'm.
Delighted that you've decided tocome back.
It was like a brilliant chat andwe spoke all about your YA novel
Once Queen, about its unique portal based magic systems.
(01:09):
And what was really interesting is how it's sort of multiple
fantasy worlds within our own world.
So it's quite, really interesting and we've got loads
of positive comments, really loads of interesting listeners.
Like I mentioned to you before, it was off the bottom.
People love turtle fantasy, Theyreally do.
(01:31):
Yeah, that's so that's fine. We found our people.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
So how's it been since the firstbook came out?
Yeah, so so the first book came out at the end of January last
year, 2024. Once a queen.
And she's had a just absolutely brilliant run of just, I had a
wonderful time. And probably the best thing that
(01:53):
happened was the book got on theradar of a huge reading movement
here in the US called the Read, Read Aloud Revival.
And once those families got a hold of that book there it
became part of it was folded into their summer reading
program. So they had, they usually do
like 3 book clubs and one is foryounger kids and they read like
(02:16):
a collection of fairy tales and they called it was called Fairy
Tale Summer. And Sarah McKenzie is the one
who heads it up. So the littles all read a
collection of fairy tales and then middle grade readers read
Wing Feather Saga, or at least the first Wing Feather book,
which is published also by my publisher.
It's a middle grade fantasy series by Waterbrook Multnomah
(02:37):
through Penguin Random House. And then they chose once a Queen
as the read for the moms, which I thought was really
interesting. So the moms have a book group
and in my mind it's like 12 people, you know, getting on,
but no, there were like 700. There were like 700 people that
were like like tuning in as I was being interviewed by Sarah
(02:58):
this and it made for a best seller in in YA for the market I
write for. And then it was nominated for,
it was a Christie Award finalist, which in the market I
write for is like one of the highest honors for fiction for
(03:19):
YA. So yeah, it's been just actually
like, whatever dream you could want.
The only thing I didn't get was like a Newberry or something,
but that's fine. Still plenty of time.
Well, congratulations. Thank you.
Very well deserved as well. Like I know you've put a lot of
work into it and I suppose it just speaks to like your
expertise as a why a fiction writer.
(03:42):
You just understand younger people, don't you?
And I suppose that's why so manypeople were able to relate to it
and enjoy it and. Well, and I wrote it.
I wrote it for the 14 year old that I was, you know, my main
character's 14 and and I think that a lot of people as adults,
that's still an age group that they like that that that
(04:06):
Madeline Lengle would say she was the author of A Wrinkle in
time. I'm all the ages I have ever
been, but she often wrote for the age that she really still
resonated with inside herself. So a lot of her fiction was, you
know, that kind of younger teen.It's not the really
sophisticated YA that's dealing with like adult themes
(04:29):
necessarily. It's much more as those kids are
making the turn from childhood to into young adulthood.
It's like that, that liminal space where they just aren't
sure who they are yet. Their stuff.
They don't want to give up from their childhood yet become
adults, but they also know they have to become adults.
So that's that's my space too, that I seem to inhabit and I
(04:52):
find but like the moms in this in this book club just loved it
and they, you know, read it withtheir daughters and with their
sons and passed it on, you know,to their neighbors and friends.
So that was really lovely. It's for all of it.
Yeah. What do you think the biggest
thing that you learned from it all was?
(05:14):
Well, it was really interesting to do the interview with the
book club and they had so many questions about different
aspects of the book that that tome weren't as important.
But like, to them, it became this huge thing.
Like they were really interestedin the topiaries, which are just
(05:36):
sort of these like sculpted yew trees that dot the landscape of
the estate of Caracal in England, where once a queen, the
first book takes place. Oh, and the publisher calls them
the Caracal novels now because they almost always start there.
And then you end up having, you know, experiences of these other
worlds and then you always like end up back there so that the
(05:58):
house is almost like this hub, almost like AI don't know, like
a, a place between worlds where stuff happens.
But they were, you know, they, they were like really into the
asking me about the topiaries. And I was like, well, originally
they were statues. And my publisher was like,
that's too much like the White Witch's palace in Narnia.
(06:19):
And I was like, yeah, 'cause there's no statues in any other
fairy tale and fantasy literature.
Like, have you read it's Enchanted Castle?
No. OK, so it was just I, you know,
so we were just like, OK, well, topiaries then we're just gonna.
So these poor moms were like, wealso, we like, drove to a
different state to go to this Manor house that has topiaries.
(06:42):
And I was like, did you take pictures?
I wanna see it, but it it's it'sfunny to me because, you know,
in 100 years when the English professor is sitting in the
class with Richie Billings best selling fantasy story and is
saying now what did Richie do here?
Do you see? Notice what he did with this
coffee mug? This coffee mug is really,
(07:04):
really important. It's that theme just carries
through the whole book and from,you know, distant heaven.
You're like, yeah, no, it was no, it was just a narrative
device. I was just trying.
To move this. Next theme that I, I got a big
kick out of that actually, because you realize like, huh, I
wonder how much importance they've put on stuff that shows
(07:25):
up and, you know, class work that I love.
And it really was just the author.
You know, but I suppose that's one of the best things about it
is that everyone finds somethingspecific that they reson like
that resonates with them essentially, and that they
they're drawn to it and for somereason or another and it's
(07:46):
always the things they don't really think about.
Well, and I didn't, I mean, in my mind, I'm not aware
necessarily of how much these details are, are part of the
world building and part of the that feeling of having entered a
real space. So I don't want to take that
lightly. You know, like I want, I want
to, everything should matter. You know, it made me realize
(08:09):
like I probably should have thought a little more about
these topiaries and how they work and like what what role
they play. Yeah, did you?
So move on to book 2? Did the topiaries feature?
No, no, I couldn't. I, I could not figure out what
to do with them. In fact, I should probably.
No, they're in there. I think they're mentioned, but I
(08:34):
mean, I'd already basically written the book by the time I
did the book club, you know, book.
I'd written Book 2 Once a Castleby the time I sat down with
these moms to talk about Once a Queen, And by that point I'm
like, yeah, has to. Go back and rewrite.
Right. But I'm working on book three,
once a crown. So another, I think big surprise
(08:56):
is like how many loose ends I had left that I didn't realize
I'd left that I've got to now tie up these threads, no pun
intended, because weaving is a big theme.
So, yeah, I think I was doing that to, like, hedge my bets the
first time around. Like you could do a story about
this. You could do a story about this.
(09:16):
This could play a role. This is mysterious.
We're just going to leave that there.
It'll be a, you know, blind alley.
And then. But now that I've got them all
written down in one space, I'm like, this is a mess.
What? What was I?
Yeah, no. What was I so.
What was it like then like rightin the second stage?
Because I you mentioned that there was quite a few more
points of view characters. In this so once a queen is told
(09:40):
first person from the perspective of the 14 year old
girl from the US that comes overto England and spends the summer
with her British grandmother that she has met for the first
time that summer. So it's Cara call.
It's very mysterious. She's learning all of these
mysterious things about other worlds and her grandmother's
potential involvement in those worlds.
(10:01):
But towards the end of the book,I introduced some younger
characters. She has a good friend named
Frankie and his siblings. You know, I'm making sure that
they're you're getting to know them a little bit so that by the
time you get to book 2, now we have I very unwisely ended up
with five points of view. And they're not, it's not in
(10:21):
first person. It's like limited omniscient
third person. But we've got several of
Frankie's siblings now. So Tilly, who is his the next
sibling in the order, she's like16, has a big crush on Lord
Edwards middle son Charles who attends the nearby elite
(10:45):
boarding school and then her their middle brother Jack who's
like 15. And of course if you have a
Jack, you have to have a giant. So yes, but he doesn't have a
POV. And then there's Elsbeth, who is
like the next to youngest and her little brother.
Their little brother Georgie shows up, but he doesn't have
(11:07):
APOV. But then there's also a
character from Ternival, which is the fairy tale world.
Her name is Zara. And then there's Arash, who is
the grandson of the Rastagar families.
They're refugees from Iran who have opened up a tea shop and a
bookshop in the village of UpperWolverne, where the Addison
family, Frankie's siblings, are all from.
(11:29):
So we still see Frankie and Eva,but I thought it'd be kind of
fun to see Eva like in third person, like what her, you know,
what people who see her and knowher think of her and, and who
she is and how she acts. So that was kind of fun.
It's quite a powerful device though, isn't it?
I find it's like showing, like you say, just showing the reader
(11:52):
how all the characters think andfeel about a character.
I think that's one of the best ways to characterize actually.
Well, then you have different, like, really, really different
perspectives. I mean, Jack, the middle child,
he's just been crushed by this, you know, five siblings, right?
And he's in the middle. He just wants to be left alone.
(12:14):
Elizabeth and Tilly, who are theonly two girls in the family,
are kind of at each other's throats now.
Elizabeth, who's 12, is like annoyed with Tilly for growing
up and leaving her behind and giving more attention to this
cute boy instead of to her, you know, her only sister.
And Arash is, we learn along theway has experienced some trauma
(12:37):
as a refugee and how that has limited his.
Like he he very much feels only safe around his family.
So not only is he thrust out of Upper Wolverine, which is
already foreign to him, but he'snow, you know, they they all end
up having adventures in Ternivalwhere like, at least for Arash,
(13:04):
he still feels like the odd man out because he's clearly not of
European descent like a bunch ofthe other characters, but he's
like, how am I still the odd manout?
There's literally a dwarf right there and there's literally a
Centaur who's like a guy from the waist up and a horse from
the waist down. And I'm still the weirdo this,
you know, like he's suspected asbeing like from a foreign
(13:28):
country that has always been at war with ternival, etcetera.
So it's like you're it's taking the things that are their
struggles in this world and amplifying them through through
the door, through a different ina different world and realizing
like they've brought all their problems with them.
So it's, you know, it's not the place.
(13:49):
These are things they have to resolve.
There are people they need to apologize to.
There are people that they, you know, there are ways Arash needs
to claim his voice. There's you know, so there's and
the fun part is like I introduced Jack, but then you
see him through Arash's perspective, right?
And we see inside Arash's mind, but then he's viewed from Zara's
(14:13):
perspective from Terra Noval andall that kind of fun stuff.
So. It seems like thematically it's
a very, very strong thematicallyin terms of like what you're
exploring in the story. What are the kinds of themes did
you have it was that you set outto explore?
When you're thinking about this,because you've got so many
(14:35):
brilliant different perspectives, it sounds like
it's something that you wanted to to dive into.
Yeah, the part, well, part of the challenge, I mean, and maybe
we talked about this before, butI, I love classic fairy tales
and fantasy literature. It's, you know, I was sort of
(14:58):
brought up on all of that. And so CS Lewis and Jr.
Tolkien and E Nesbitt and a lot of the European fairy tales and
revisiting some of those in the past decade, I've begun to
realize like, OK, so, so there are ways that that women, for
instance, in CS OS and Tolkien are they're, they're perceived
(15:22):
in a particular way, that particular role to play.
And while Aon is a wonderful sort of like reversal of a bunch
of tropes in The Lord of the Rings, you know, my son's in
watching the films over Christmas break when she pulls
her helmet off and is like, you know, with an ask, well, like I
am no man. They were like, and I was like,
(15:44):
that's right. Those are the sons I'm raising
in this world. And I realized, like, that
should not be a scene that's like few and far between.
Like there's there should be ways that we see Queens being
really prominent and we have thereturn of the king in The Lord
of the Rings. What if we have Queens
(16:07):
returning? What if we have, you know,
storylines that really feature women?
So the first book, Once a Queen was really me both giving an
homage to those classic authors and also arguing with arguing
with them a bit. And they're dead, so they can't
argue back, which is great because I would not survive
Louis anyway, who is an expert debater.
(16:30):
But I, I was trying to, you know, really push the idea that
that you can, you can track this, the story of a realm
through its Queens. You cannot tell the story of
British history without its three longest reigning monarchs.
So it's like, how do we how do we do that without sounding
(16:53):
angry, snippy, you know, and I don't want to do that and make
like my sons feel small, right? Like that, as if because their
stories matter too, right? So how do we how do we do that
in a way that's expansive instead of like descriptive and
(17:13):
narrow? So then it wants a castle.
Now with these five perspectives.
It was really fun for me becausePersianate characters like this
family from Iran and then Zara who in ternival she too is
descended of refugees to ternival and they have kind of a
(17:37):
Persianate history that you realize begins to develop over
the course of the story. The so because we have those
characters in it and I am, as you can see, very blonde, blue
eyed, you know, woman of European descent for whom this
would be a very gutsy and perhaps stupid move to write
(17:57):
from that perspective. Because, you know, we're
supposed to write what we know, right?
The publisher has sensitivity readers or like authenticity
readers that they will get the manuscript to.
And mine both books so far, Oncea Queen and Once a Castle have
been read by this wonderful betareader named Cyrus.
(18:22):
And his his input on the Persianate characters has been
so heartening to me. After the first book, I was
like, OK, he really thinks I cando this like this is amazing.
So and then he's reading Once a Castle and I'm giving Arash and
(18:43):
Zara as much air time as these people of European descent.
And yeah, they're the strangers,right?
They're the ones like, how did their storylines, you know, work
with all of this? And it was delightful for him to
name what I was trying to do. He was the first one of all my
(19:04):
editors and everybody to say, I get it.
You are. How did he I I should pull up
his what he said. So get the wording right.
But essentially, he said, in a lot of Western fantasy
literature, people of southern climates of dark, darker skinned
(19:27):
people are often painted as siding with, you know, evil,
right. So the South coming in, in Lord
of the Rings, you have, you havethe, the southern with the
Oliphants and it's all very, youknow, person and slash, Turkish
slash. I mean, and these, these were
(19:48):
the fairy tales that Lewis and Tolkien read growing up was the
the stuff that was forged duringthe Crusades.
And so it's like that shaped a lot of European fairy tales as
they developed in the 12th and 13th centuries.
So Cyrus was like, I see what you're doing.
You're giving them just as much air time as the European
(20:10):
characters. And by the end, you realize you
can't tell the one story withoutthe other, and that royal lines
run through through all of thesefamilies and that they are, in
fact, you can't tease them apart.
By the time we get to the end ofthe story, and as one reviewer
(20:31):
said in Goodreads, she was like,I gasped aloud multiple times.
Because it's not what you're expecting.
You're expecting those characters to be like extra
tropes that are just there to kind of affirm the royal lineage
of whoever and like, you know, Idon't know, be the loyal
sidekicks. And he he was just so grateful
(20:55):
that I didn't. And he's like, I have a feeling
we're going to be in in their world eventually, in the
kingdoms they come from. And I'm like, yes, once a crown.
Once a crown. So when you said also write this
book, did you have a in mind what kind of themes you want to
tackle? Or is that something that I
mean, how do you approach theme generally, because it is
(21:15):
something that a lot of writers find tough and you have a great
ability to nail it. And I think why a as a whole, it
seems to place more emphasis on themes and teachable things that
like young people can take away and and use and buy the life.
(21:35):
Yeah, it's hard to do that without like smashing people
over the head too with like hair.
And a lot of yai think I don't actually really resonate with a
a ton of it, in part because it can be so issues driven.
It's often very issues and it's stuff that that is really
(21:58):
important and it's giving it, it's amplifying voices that have
not been heard that need to be heard.
And I, I do resonate with that part of it.
Some of the more adult themes inYA.
I'm like, oh, come on, just let kids be kids, right?
Like like they'll like, none of these themes were invented by
teenagers. You know, drugs and sex and all
(22:20):
that. Like, like adults invented that
shit. Sorry, invented that stuff.
My bad. Feel free at it.
I don't care. It doesn't bother me.
Might bother my publisher, but it doesn't bother me.
They, you know, teenagers didn'tinvent that stuff.
So there are other things they care about.
They care about family relationships.
(22:41):
They care about the siblings. They care about making a
difference in the world. They want to be heard, but not
like to become like the the iconof some sort of cause.
Not necessarily. So it's so so it's kind of
bringing it down to those familyrelationships.
That was really important to me to continue to to focus on that.
(23:05):
And I'm trained theologian, so Ican't write without digging into
deeper themes. You know, I'm just, I think like
we talked about last time, it's that sense of other world, of
another world breaking in on this one, that we're not alone
in the universe that, you know, as we are experiencing life and
(23:27):
its events unfold, we're beginning to sense that there's
like there's some sort of plot that we're part of that we're
that we get to have a role in and actually matters, that it
means something more than just our birth and death date, death
dates on a headstone. That's that's really important
to me. And I want kids to experience
(23:48):
that sense of of being part of astory that began before they got
here and will continue long after they're gone.
Yeah, it's, it's a special thingto be able to do, isn't it?
It's lovely and it comes out of having worked with teenagers for
years and seeing, especially with stories like how much it
(24:09):
unlocks for them. It's just they're we're all
still kids with a kind of wide eyed wonder and you don't have
to give that up just because yougrow up, you know?
I, I really agree with what you said before.
I think it was the quote that you are every age you've been,
but there's just that one particular age that you always
(24:32):
go back to in your mind and in your heart, because I suppose it
might be in the happiest time orperiods is how we've got the
most fondest memories. Well.
Yeah. Interesting, isn't it?
Those vanishing Saturday mornings where you could just
wake up and read until somebody came.
Like, have you had breakfast? Yeah, it's like 11:00 AM and
(24:54):
you're like still in your jammies, but you're almost the
Rivendell. Yeah, there you go.
Don't stop me now. What do you think the biggest
challenge was in writing the second book compared to the
first? Oh yeah, probably the time
crunch. I think maybe we've talked the
(25:17):
first time about how once the Queen unfolded over decades,
like it really the seed of the idea came very early to me in my
writing career, but I didn't make the shift till fiction with
I I didn't make that till once the Queen came out 20 years
after my first non fiction book.And so I had all of that time to
(25:38):
like, you know, many, many layers and iterations of the
story, but once a castle and nowonce a crown, I'm just cranking
these things out. And turns out I'm a little more
like Tolkien than Lewis. Lewis could just, he just dashed
stuff off. It was ridiculous.
(25:59):
Tolkien, you know, he he's he said at one point it's a curse
having an epic temperament and aage devoted to snappy bits.
Yeah. And I think that that's, you
know, I think I have an epic temperament.
So it's hard to collapse the theway the just kind of marinating
(26:20):
in a story while you're folding laundry or going on a walk or
riding on the bus. Like there's stuff that happens
in your imagination when you're not actually writing it and when
you have to, when you have to sit down and write it with such
a terrible turn around crunch time is can be kind of stifling
actually. So how?
How long did you get to to do? The second book, yeah, it was
(26:45):
due last August. Well, no, no, we're talking
about, oh, I'm writing the thirdbook right now, which was due
last August. So it's kind of a similar time
frame. I missed my deadline for book 2
and, but I would say the bulk ofit I cranked out in about 3
months and it's, it's over 100,000 words.
(27:06):
So the I, I had to, I wanted to get to for book three.
I was like, I cannot have 5 PO VS I cannot do that, not do this
again. So I did I, I, it took me a
while. So I had to figure out how to
shrink it down Once a crown is going to be 3PO VS but there's a
new character still and like anyway, I'm it's exhausting.
(27:32):
I don't recommend any ACE at all.
Yeah, so. I think.
A lot of people do it who do these like list series where one
comes out every year or even 2. I don't know.
I don't know how they do. It, I don't know, it's like a
mental trick, isn't it? Just to sort of, I don't know,
almost like not worry about whatyou're writing as much.
(27:54):
Just trust in yourself. It's incredible.
Yes, trust yourself and get the story out.
There's nothing to edit at leastlike, you know, just get it out.
There is a there is a writing mentor.
Her name is Jessica Brody and she does a kind of master class
(28:15):
on fast drafting through the writing mastery Academy, I think
it's called. And it's all online, but I did
I, it's like you watch videos and then there's these like
worksheets and things as you're working on your book like that
you're, you're doing. And the fast drafting model was,
is, has been really fascinating.And I've been kind of doing a
(28:38):
hybrid version of that, which isbasically like you'd set timers,
like you write until the timer goes.
And then if you're on a roll, you set another timer and you
keep going, but you don't do more than like an hour at a
stretch. And then you give your brain the
chance to, you know, do other stuff 'cause it also needs that,
(28:59):
that downtime. And you don't, when you, when
you pick up the next day, you don't reread anything.
You just start right where you were and you keep going.
And if along the way you realizeyou need to make a change, like
you're gonna change a character's name or gender or
whatever, you make a note in themanuscript at the moment So you
(29:21):
don't go back and make all thosechanges because that's just
going to like derail the forwardmomentum.
You just make a note because future you is going to be
smarter than current you is the way she's spelled it.
And so just make a note you're changing their name.
And then when you do subsequent revisions, you can, that's when
you go in and you change their name through the whole draft and
(29:43):
you change whatever those details were that you realized
you needed to add. And so I'm doing a a variation
on that. Very, very well.
That's what I do as well, just no distractions until.
You get to in theory. Yeah.
In theory, yeah. But yeah, that sounds really
cool. It's it's.
(30:05):
It's going to exercise and I mean learning something new,
right? Like we're, it's like a math
class in, in a career that, you know, I thought I knew.
And lo and behold, there are other ways to do it.
Yeah, there's always something. These are learning and writing.
Absolutely. I love that about it.
Yeah. Yeah.
And you've got to stay open minded, haven't you?
(30:26):
And you've got to accept that the stories, new things up there
to learn. I always say because we, when we
recruit writers, because we haveto give them a lot of feedback.
And it's always the people who don't listen to the feedback
that basically don't stay in thejob.
And I always say to them, like the minute you stop or the
(30:47):
minute you think you know it allbasically is the minute you're a
bad writer, you become a bad. Writer because you just become.
Complacent you, you think you'reamazing, you don't need to go
back and edit stuff. It's bad, bad attitude to us.
Yes, yeah, yeah, my challenge too.
Well, and maybe this has been like, I think this has been a
(31:11):
boon actually for writing this quickly is I will write, I will
read even the fast drafted versions to my sons in the
evenings. And they're 14 and 11 now.
And and their feedback has been really great because 14 year old
boy is, is like, he doesn't careabout your emotions at all.
(31:33):
Like he doesn't care. He's gonna just say what he
thinks and, and and they're going to point out when things
are cringe. And this is good because this is
my readership, but it has also, I think it has taught me to also
be like much more like aggressive with my edits.
(31:59):
Like they're, they're just, theyjust don't hold back.
So it's like I'm literally editing as we're, as I'm reading
it loud, realizing like, oh, this is not.
Yeah, no. So I mean, they've caught
everything from like unintentional innuendo to to
like, mom, you use that descriptive word a lot.
Can you, is there something elseyou can use me to go, You know,
(32:23):
type in synonyms for whatever. But yeah, yeah, really.
If you really if you really wantyourself to be edited within an
inch of its life, read it to teenagers.
There you go. Yeah, yeah, there's one final
question I've got for you. Just kid says the the the state
(32:47):
of publishing generally, particularly in white fiction.
And we're moving into a brand new year.
It's obviously being a bit of a turbulent one with like AI and
stuff like that. And as someone who's active in
the industry at the moment, what, what is it like for you as
we move into this new year? What is, have you noticed any
trends in the types of books that are coming out or the types
(33:09):
of messages that publishers are focusing on?
And what is going on in in YA in25/20/25?
Well, one trend I noticed that was or that I read about that
was really fascinating to me is the trend of the like publishers
(33:32):
will take one of their best selling backlist books.
Maybe it's like the first in a best selling series or it's like
the best loved of a detective series or something like that.
Or maybe it's a classic and they're doing these really high
design like gift collectible booklins of these books and and
(33:58):
it's almost like and and people already have like multiple
copies of these books. I mean, but this is the one,
this is this is the one that youreally want because it's the,
you know, it's the really detailed illustrated edition of
Harry Potter. Those have, I mean, you'll see
the OR like with the Lord of theRings, it'll be with some of the
(34:21):
original illustrations by Oh my gosh, who was the the
illustrator that did the stuff for the films for way to
workshop? Al Alan Lee.
Is that right, Alan Alan Lee, I think.
And so, so these, these, this isan interesting trend to me
because now we have AI capable of creating literary art.
(34:49):
And yet people are wanting almost like, it's like they're
wanting the treasured, actual, like, hold it in your hands,
real thing, like the actual bookin their hands.
They don't want to. That's not the Kindle edition.
It's the, it's, there's something about the aesthetic of
(35:10):
the physical object and its beauty as a work of art that is
in this digital age of like not being able to tell what is real
and fake arts and what is real and fake literary art, among
other. I mean, there's, there's all
kinds of, you know, ways that this is going, but people,
(35:31):
people want the real thing. And I think that's a fascinating
trend. I really do.
I've noticed that a lot as well.We've got a, a publisher, I
think a publisher, or maybe it'sjust a in a sort of specialist
printer and they're called the broken binding, I think it's
called. And they do like really artistic
(35:54):
fantasy books. Yeah.
Like the the page, the side of the pages are all painted and.
Looks amazing. Oh yeah, it's yeah, it's the
yeah, yeah. So.
So what used to have been like agold, gold.
Yeah. Up on the pages is an actual
work of art. Yes, yeah, yes.
(36:15):
That is fascinating to me. And then there's also this
movement. I'm gonna pull this book down.
So I wrote a book that was basically like my theology of
the imagination. Like, what role does the imagine
play in our kind of spiritual and moral formation?
It's called the God Hungry Imagination.
And the year that came out, my brother-in-law, who is a book
(36:40):
binder, took the part and and this is the book, this is the
paperback book. But he, he put it in, you know,
a, a real leather like handmade paper, marbled paper.
I mean, it's just an extraordinary piece and
(37:02):
beautifully stamped, you know, on the spine.
And then he did his own leather stamping there.
And his name's Phil Deloria. He and my sister have a farm in
northern Michigan called Fiddlehead Farm.
But but that, that, that, that to me, I'll be so curious to see
(37:30):
where this trend of like that, that hand, like the actual
artists having their hands on anobject that you then hold.
Yeah, as a kind of backlash against.
AI. The digital it's.
Quite a shame really, because obviously, oh, I'd say it's
probably a positive thing because if there's a demand for
(37:52):
it, which there is, the publishers are going to do it
because they're going to make more money selling a book for 30
LB instead of 10 LB. Yeah.
Which, yeah, they'll be delighted with that.
But if it keeps artists in work,that's a really good thing.
It probably gives artists more work, especially in a time where
(38:13):
people's jobs and livelihoods are threats.
Oh yeah. I mean, I started off as a
freelancer doing a lot of curriculum writing a lot of
curriculum for youth, you know, education.
And a lot of what I did could bedone by AI now.
(38:34):
And so there's a way that those freelance jobs are going away.
And so how does an artist keep something alive?
Like I would, I, it will be interesting to see if, if
there's this continued trend toward, back towards like actual
hand drawn illustrated, you know, books, not just digitally
(38:57):
drawn illustrations. Like what are what of these kind
of ancient art forms on how, howwill they stay known?
Like how won't I just, you know,I hate for some of us to get
lost. I sat down with my sons and I
(39:18):
know we need to wrap up, but we were, it's really interesting
'cause I, I basically sat them down and I said, 'cause my son
was given a whole huge beautifulset of like Sharpie markers of
all kinds of different colors bymy sister and brother-in-law.
And, and he's drawing Dragons and they're very like super
(39:38):
saturated colors and bright and he's having a great time.
I said, I'm so glad you're doingthis because you someday will
tell your grandchildren and great grandchildren that you
remember life before AI. You remember what it was like to
create your own stuff without a computer creating it for you,
You, you. Might be with some of the last
(40:02):
people who can tell the difference between a real work
of art and an AI generated work of art because you saw the real
stuff and you made the real stuff and don't stop making the
real stuff. And then we and then we talked
about like, how does how do we keep a crafter an art alive?
Like how do we not lose the ability to write a story, lose
(40:22):
the ability to draw a dragon? And so they were brainstorming
like, well, you know, we could do clubs where we get together
and we draw and we could, you know, they were trying to figure
out how do we not lose the ability to generate real art in
the world it. Could be a vague topic for any
(40:44):
series of novels. Yeah, I've been.
I've been thinking about that. Although I think that they need
to write them with me, which would be really, really
interesting. Yeah.
And then also I, I, I want to hear you describe again because
I missed some of the details about how do you mind talking
about how you did a soundtrack for your?
Yeah. So since we're on the sort of
(41:05):
subject. The title of the book when it
comes out. Yeah, so I know it's a bit
controversial using any part of AI, but I mean, I don't have
access to an orchestra, so for this one I thought it'd be OK I.
Do. Yeah.
So, yeah. So what I've done for this
(41:25):
novella, it's it's called Together We Rise and there's 8
characters with 88 parts of the story, 8 characters, and for
each character created a theme song.
And what the, the song is, it's like classic epic Lord of the
Rings style music, which you used in a tool called UDO to
(41:50):
create. You just kind of engineer it and
take it in the direction you want.
And what the reason why I decided to do this is because I
mean, we said before about how powerful music can be when it's
combined with other types of arts.
So we said Lord of the Rings andyou mentioned listening to the
(42:12):
the hover music. And yeah, before we before we
started recording, Yeah. Watching Lord of the Rings with
our songs over Christmas. And like, as the music is
starting, I look over at my husband and he and I are both
crying because these films were so important to us as newlyweds.
Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's like, it is so
powerful, isn't it? And it can elevate things to, to
(42:35):
new levels. So that's why I wanted to do it.
And well, one thing I was keen to do is to have songs that
match your mirror, the emotionaljourney that the character goes
through in each chapter. So.
So I thought that was quite cool.
And yeah, it just showed me the kind of things that you can do
(42:56):
now, isn't it? Was so was the book already
drafted at this point and this was like a way to or where was
it? Part of your journey of creating
these characters was to have to really zero in on on who they
are and what what their experience is.
Yeah, I think I, I kind of, I was drafting the book already
and then once I realised you could do this and then was
(43:17):
playing around with it and getting interesting results and
I was like, this is quite interesting and.
Well, and why not I? Think it does because.
I mean it's like illustrations, right?
I mean looking drew like so here's oh, wait, no, I mean he
this is this is his and the cover of the annotated Hobbit.
(43:40):
They have his full colour illustration of Smaug.
And then as I was trying to get a handle on what.
Oh well, it was when they were trying to figure out Jim Tierney
is the, the cover artist for my books once a Castle.
And he wanted to get a sense of what Zara looks like.
And I was like, well, then I, I was trying to find like an image
(44:03):
online and I just couldn't find it.
So I just drew her and, and I hadn't yet written most of the
scenes. You know, where like the the
full part of her story really starts to come out.
And there was something about drawing her that made her even
more real to me. And I wonder if the music maybe
(44:23):
kind of played that role for you.
It certainly makes it more cinematic when you're when
you're listening to the songs and then you're thinking about
what that character's doing. You visualize it quite strongly
and then you do feel your emotions.
And if it sort of triggers you abit, then you're like, I think
I'm, I'm quite close there. Yeah.
Well. It's sort of yeah.
(44:46):
And I write, I have very varioussoundtracks I write too.
But I did find it was really funny.
I did find myself more with Oncea Queen.
I was listening to more like yo-yo Ma and Tony Anderson.
I'd love he does a lot of digital, like sort of grand epic
(45:07):
soundtrack kinds of things. I was, I was listening to them
and, and I'd be like, oh, this is so sad and this is so feeling
all of these emotions. And then with once the castle, I
listen to a lot of like Pirates of the Caribbean.
This is more of an adventure story and I'd be like, man, they
do a lot of running in this book.
(45:27):
And, and I I think it is a powerful effect.
And, and I think the challenge too is if the reader isn't
listening to that same soundtrack, does the plot and
the storyline and the charactershit them in the same way that
it, I thought it was hitting right like that.
It affected me. But the fact that you created
soundtracks that other people will be able to listen to,
(45:48):
that's a whole like that is so cool.
Yeah, I know. I thought it might work quite
well. Yeah.
We'll see what happens. I'll send you.
I'll send you the book and you can see.
Yeah, I. Would love that.
I would love that, that'd be so great.
Yeah, awesome. Thank you very much.
It's been wonderful chatting with you again.
Oh. That's lovely.
(46:08):
As always, so great. Thank you.
Good luck with the release of Once the Castle.
Yeah, February 11th, Once the Castle.
Yeah. And then this time next year
we'll be doing Once a Crown. Yeah, come, come back and talk
about that one as well. I can't wait.
I'm so excited. I'm so excited.
You've been done them first. Oh my gosh, Dear Lord.
(46:31):
Where's the best place to learn more about you and to find out
more about the book? Yeah, I'm at saraharthur.com and
that's Sarah with an H and I'm also on various socials at Holy
Dreaming. Amazing.
I'll put all the links in the description.
Well, thank you very much Sir. It's been a pleasure, as always.
Awesome. I'm happy to writing to all the
(46:52):
listeners out there. Yeah.
Thank you very much everyone. That's in the whole everyone
speak to you soon. Ready.
Take care. Thank you.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.