June 13, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode, I’m joined by New York Times Best Selling fantasy author, Kel Kade.
Kel’s new book, Sanctum of the Soul, was published by Tor in February 2025 and completes her brilliant new trilogy. As well as discussing the new book, we also dive into the character creation process and how to create fantasy worlds, discussing techniques and methods to ensure we don’t info dump!
Kel also shares her favourite and least favourite fantasy tropes, and we discuss some newer and more shocking tropes that writers should think about before including.
And Kel also discusses her amazing journey through the world of writing, starting out as a popular indie author with The King's Dark Tidings, before getting snapped up by Tor.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Thank you for listening to the Fantasy Writers Tool Shed.
If you'd like to join our writing community on Discord and
get access to fancy writing classes and books on Patreon,
check the links in the description.
And if you don't want to miss any future episodes, be sure to
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(00:23):
social media or with anyone who you think may be interested.
Thank you very much for listening.
Enjoy the show. Welcome to another episode of
the Fantasy Writers Tour Shed. I'm your host, Richie Berling,
(00:45):
and today I'm delighted to be joined by the New York Times
bestselling author Calcade Cal Welcome to the show.
Hello, thank you. My pleasure to be here.
Thank you very much for joining me on the day we're recording
this, your brand new book, Sanctum of the Soul.
It comes out in just seven days.Very exciting.
Congratulations. Thank you.
(01:07):
It's the last in the trilogy. Is this right in the current
series? That's correct.
Yes, the final book. How does it feel right in the
final book? It's a weight off my shoulders
for sure, but it's also really exciting because I get to see,
you know, all that I've been creating kind of wrap up and and
come to the conclusion. So I'm really excited about it.
(01:30):
Yeah, and I mean, it sounds likeyou're like, you say you're
ready to move on to something new.
Was there any sort of sort of sad aspects of moving on, like
saying goodbye to the charactersor anything like that?
Well, I really enjoy writing these books and I always leave
(01:51):
the option open that maybe I'll revisit these characters in this
world in the future installment or something, but but I don't
have any plans for that at the moment.
But yeah, it's a little bit, a little bit sad, but exciting at
the same time. Nice.
So for anyone who may not have read Yeah this series before, do
(02:11):
you fancy telling us a bit aboutit?
And what it's all about. I really love the the sort of
trope twist in this one, but would you mind telling us about
it? Yeah, so this is a, you know,
hero's journey kind of story. It starts out with a prophecy.
(02:33):
And of course, the the chosen 1 is is destined to either win or
fail. And there's a little bit of a
little bit of A twist at the beginning.
And I don't want to really go into too much about that because
it'll spoil it for anybody who hasn't read the series.
(02:56):
But we see some unusual characters going on through
throughout the series. There's there's a cranky
Forester, there's Reaper and theundead and mages and Wizards and
just a colorful carrot cast of gods.
(03:19):
A lot of different types of people come together and and
create this story. That sounds amazing.
So I think a nice tapestry of ofcharacters as well.
Do you? Do you place a lot of emphasis
on the characters when you writeyour stories?
I, I believe my stories are primarily character driven.
(03:40):
I really write it from from the character's perspective and, and
draw a lot on their their feelings and emotions and how
they respond and react to the events that are happening around
them. So yeah, I definitely lean
heavily into the characters. Yeah, what you think's the most
important part of of writing a character driven story.
(04:00):
You know, I see I'm I'm working with the right at the moment and
we were talking about this the other day.
And when you're writing those first drafts, like it's some
some aspects of that character developments and it's just
aren't there in the first draftsare the and it's for me anyway,
sort of I was just to go back and add in and develop a bit
more. But what's it like for you?
(04:21):
What's your process like when itcomes to exploring what these
characters are like and helping the reader build like solid
connections with them? Well, I, I kind of lean heavily
into the dialogue both between characters and within a
character, him or herself. I think it's important to show
(04:42):
those those inner thoughts and feelings that the character
experiences to really help the reader to connect with them,
that are to understand them, to understand their motivations and
their strengths and weaknesses, and just fill out the character
as as if it's a a real human being.
(05:03):
I think that that's the best wayto unite the the reader with the
story. Yeah, it's, it's definitely a
tricky thing. I I always remember reading a
line and a book on writing and said you don't just need to know
what a character wants for breakfast.
You need to know why he wants it.
(05:23):
And that when you think of it like that, it's like you've got
to go the extra step. It's like it's OK for this
character to feel like this, butyou've got to look at the why as
well, haven't you? That's a really reveal who they
are. They're very fascinating.
And so the world is quite uniquein the story.
And does that come from your background in science?
(05:51):
I do really enjoy creating the world's and I definitely draw
from my background in geosciences to kind of flesh out
the world and make it make it realistic, but also add that
element of fantasy to it to makeit a little bit more than what
you experienced in in real life,but also make it believable at
(06:14):
the same time. Nice.
So tell us a bit about this world, in particular in in the
series. Well, as as I mentioned, there's
there's a whole multiple pantheons of gods who have
created this, this world and many other worlds as well, but
(06:37):
it's focused on this one world. And these these gods are kind of
reminiscent of the Greek Roman gods.
You know, they have their petty squabbles and, and their
strengths and weaknesses and their their interactions and
then their motivations for interfering in the lives of of
the humans that live in the world are often petty and and
(07:02):
other times they have life altering circumstances.
And then there's the plethora ofbeings that that live in the
world besides the humans who adda little element of fantasy to
the story. And then of course we have the
humans. And some of these humans have
(07:28):
abilities that others may not have.
They may have some magic or unique abilities that make them
special and others others don't.They're just people who have to
go through the world and exist and survive as just average,
average people. So it's it's a whole cast of of
(07:51):
characters that have to satisfy these different roles that they
play. Yeah.
Do you spend a lot of time on the world building process?
It kind of comes to me as I write.
I don't. I don't spend a lot of time in
the beginning fleshing out the world.
And really when I dive into a story, I'm first thinking about
(08:16):
the characters and what is this character doing and where are
they and, and who are, are the influences on this character?
And then their world kind of starts expanding.
And as it's expanding for the character, it's expanding for
the reader and it gets larger and larger and, and integrates
(08:38):
more of, of the universe that exists around them.
So the reader gets to experiencethat awe and and the new
experiences with the with the character.
Yeah, it's definitely an approach of hearing more and
(08:58):
more people take that one. It's what I follow as well,
because the reality is we don't have the time to be spending
days building details that we potentially may never use.
So this more efficient, supposedto.
Well, it's definitely work. Works well for the reason you
just said as well, because it's more natural, it's more organic,
(09:22):
like the characters discovering things as they're moving through
the story. And yeah.
Well, and and nobody really wants to read a big information
dump at the beginning of the book.
Nobody wants to read a long drawn out explanation of the
world and it's, and all its features and, and you know,
whether it has deities or, or the religious system or the
(09:45):
magic system, you know, they, they want to experience it, like
you said, organically as, as thestory is progressing and to
really be presented of what's with what, what's relevant at
the time. And you know, if we bogged them
down with too many details in the beginning of our fantastic
world building, then the story gets really slow and maybe a
(10:08):
little bit boring. Yeah.
Do you ever worry that you've gone too far with like the world
building details and do you haveany sort of ways to try and
catch whether you've gone a little bit too too detailed?
Well, there's always a lot more that I know about the world than
(10:31):
I actually include in the books.And so I would like to integrate
some of this information into the books, but it doesn't really
have a place in the book. So it's important, not, like I
said, not to bog down in the details and just let it happen
(10:51):
as as it's presented and only only include what's relevant to
the story. Yeah, very good advice.
And one thing I wanted to ask you about, without giving too
much away about the book, was fantasy tropes.
Just generally we don't have to talk about the one that the
book, the book looks at. But what do you think about
(11:14):
tropes and mixing them up? Because do you speak to some
writers and especially some sortof newer writers and the the
sort of look at this, these sortof classic tropes and sort of
put them on a pedestal? Like we can't, you can't touch
them. That's like, this is what people
love. This is what sort of inspired us
(11:36):
to get into fantasy in the firstplace.
But there's so much fun to be had and just taking a hammer to
them and smashing us a bit. So mixing them up a bit a little
bit as well. So what's your view?
You're the the professional hey with the brilliant track record
(11:58):
of doing this and I'd love to get your insights.
Well, I think it's, it's definitely important to include
some of these well worn tropes because that's what gets people
excited about, about the genre is getting to experience these
elements that, that they've experienced in other stories.
(12:20):
And they, they really, really enjoyed them and, and want to
see more of that. And so when I started writing my
books, I decided that I wanted to include all of the things
that I really enjoyed about reading and exclude the things I
didn't like about it. And so I, I drew on, you know,
(12:43):
inspiration from things that I'dread and then added my own
element to it and in some cases completely flipped it upside
down because it's, it's fun to approach it from a different
perspective and show sometimes these tropes don't work out.
And I think it's fun to show that when when something goes
(13:05):
awry and and it doesn't happen the way it typically happens in
a fantasy story. Yeah, have you got a a trope
that you particularly dislike? For sure there's there's one
trope that I I think is a very sensitive subject.
(13:26):
I think that far too many fantasy series want to make the
female character. Maybe it's the protagonist,
maybe it's a supporting character.
In order for her to develop and grow and become stronger, they
think that it requires her to beraped.
And I've had even readers message me about some of my
(13:51):
characters saying, oh, this character needs to be raped so
she'll become stronger. And I think it's it's a horrible
trope. I don't think it should be
included in in fantasy stories. Yes.
To be honest, I don't read a lotof stories with that kind of
thing, but I didn't realize it had become quite common.
(14:12):
It is a strange, I've read it, I've read it in a number of in a
number of books. It it happens pretty frequently.
And I mean, it's important to toshow a bit of reality, you know,
in a realistic world, if there's, there's war and strife
and sometimes these horrible things happen.
But I don't think it should be arequirement or a mechanism for
(14:35):
helping your character to evolve.
I, I think that people depend onthat far too much.
It it there should be other waysto make characters stronger.
Yeah, definitely, yeah. Is there any sort of like sort
of new newish tropes that you quite like or you found quite
(14:55):
interesting? Wow, yeah, I I kind of lean back
on on the on some of the older tropes.
I really like the coming of age stories, you know, the, the rags
to riches kind of kind of tale. I.
(15:19):
Can't think of an underdog story, don't we?
Yeah, it's great. I can't think of any newer
tropes off the top of my head, but I'm sure I'm sure there's
plenty that I would appreciate. Yeah, it's interesting because
just because when you said thereabout that trope, it's like,
it's not like say, it's not something I'd say.
(15:39):
So it must be like a one that develops in the last few years,
but one I'm not really a fan of.And I'll tell you why.
It's because I came from a broken home.
But I don't like the mental figure because it's it assumes
that like the only way that you can sort of grow or overcome
(16:03):
obstacles is with the help of some kind of parental figure.
When I think the reality is a lot of people are just left to
sort of do it themselves and make their own way.
And the mental figure, when I see it used, they just cause a
sort of swoop in and save the day.
(16:26):
And I don't know, I just don't think that's the reality for a
lot of people. So that's my least famous.
Well, that's that's certainly a good one.
And and it's often often used. There's always the the wise old
wizard that that helps, you know, helps them get along or,
or the grandfatherly figure or or whatever.
(16:49):
Yeah, that's a good one. But but I can see from your
perspective how how not having that mentor in your life and
having to depend on yourself would be valuable.
Yeah, I suppose it's like it's one of the good things about
playing around with these troubles is that the different
(17:10):
perspectives that you can take and like what you've done, you
can you can really find a lot oforiginality and just spinning
it. So it's always a good one to
play around with. And something I was to talk to
you about was your journey through writing, because your
latest series is published by 4 and you've got a very successful
(17:32):
self-publishing self published series, haven't you called The
King's Dark Tidings? Yes.
And So what was it like for you?Like starting out with writing?
Is that where you began with TheKing's Dark Tidings?
And how has it been for you? Yeah, I, when I first started
(17:52):
writing, I was actually working on my doctorate in geosciences
and I ran out of funding. And so I was taking a bit of a
hiatus and I started writing just for the fun of it, to give
me something to do. And I started writing a
different series in the beginning, but then quickly this
(18:13):
character kind of took over my mind.
He kept revisiting me and I and he was it was so funny to me
that I, I started writing littlebits and pieces about that
character and and eventually I just switched completely to a
new book and started writing. And that was that was reskin
from the King's dark tithing series.
(18:34):
And so I started publishing those myself, self-publishing.
And after they became very successful, I was contacted by
my editor at Tor who asked me ifI would be interesting and and
writing a series for them and and I just jumped on it.
(18:55):
I I really enjoy being a self published author, but I also
enjoyed publishing with Tor so Ijust consider myself a hybrid
author. Yeah, it's a, it's the best of
both worlds, isn't it? I think.
I think nowadays a lot of like traditionally published writers
are trying to do more of the self published stuff from that's
(19:19):
from a lot of the writers that I've spoken to in the last year
or so. What was it like when you began
self-publishing your stories, and what was the sort of the
catalyst, Do you think that sortof sparked all of the attention
around them? I think I, I was, I was putting
(19:45):
a lot of my, my stress and anxiety into writing it and it
kind of provided me a release of, of that energy.
And I think that really struck Achord with readers.
A lot of people have written to me saying they were going
through a hard time and that reading the books really helped
(20:09):
them to. Kind of relax and feel some
sense of security, which I foundto be interesting considering
the content of the books. But but I think that maybe that
that emotion that I was expressing during the writing
phase really must have come across and and kind of worked it
(20:32):
way into the readers. I think it was also good timing.
I think I, I published it the first book, December 29th of
2015. It was right at the end of the
year. It was right after Christmas,
you know, people had had their gift cards or whatever and, and
people were off of school or work and they were looking for
(20:55):
some entertainment. And I think it was partially
just really good timing. So there's there's so many
elements that that could go intoit, but in some ways maybe it
was a little bit of luck. That's amazing.
I can say it's the story is is spoken to a lot of people, which
is a powerful thing. And and do you just continue to
(21:19):
expand that series? Yes, that's an ongoing series.
I'm currently writing book 7 andthat series the which I hope
will come out maybe around the summertime.
Nice. So.
So what's it like then in livingthis hybrid life as a sort of
(21:42):
self published off and traditionally published over?
Are there any sort of benefits to one side over the other or
any negatives that you found? What's your view so far?
Well, I've, I've been part of the self published community a
(22:03):
lot more than with the traditionally published
community. I've attended a lot more
conferences and things like thatwith self published community.
So I feel a little bit more connected with the self
published community. With the traditionally
published, There's this, there'sthis idea by some people that
(22:27):
some people carry that you're not a real author unless you
were traditionally published. And I think that's really
changing a lot now a lot of people no longer hold that
opinion that, and I think deservedly so people, people who
self publish are, are definitelyauthors and nobody should be
(22:49):
looking down upon them because self-publishing is hard.
It's it that you have to do everything yourself.
You know, you, you have to do your advertising and your book
formatting and your, your artwork and you know you have to
do it or you have to hire someone to do it.
And you are your own publisher. So I think there's a lot of
(23:12):
growing respect for self published authors.
Yeah, definitely. Like you've got a.
It's not just being a writer, isit?
You've got to do what, two or three different professions?
Yeah. So verify it's.
It's great to see success stories like this and we do have
a lot of indie authors, self published authors, listening to
the show and I'm sure they'll take a lot of inspiration from
(23:34):
seeing your fantastic success. So yeah, go and check it out.
We'll put the link for King's Dark Tarding books in the
description. Do you have any advice for
anyone who's maybe going considering going down a
self-publishing? Like what would you say is the
best place to start and what arethe sort of hurdles to avoid?
(23:55):
Well, I think the the 1st place to start is you need a good
book. I've met a lot of people who
spend most of their time focusing on marketing and
advertising, trying to find the newest algorithm and the newest
gimmick to really push their books.
But if you don't have a good book, no matter how much you
(24:18):
push it, it's, it's just not going to find the success that
you hope for. And even if it does find some
success through intensive marketing, you may not find
success with subsequent books because people may not like it
very much. So you need to start with a with
a really good book. And I think it's really
important to write what you love.
(24:43):
Write what you want to write. Write the story that you want to
read as a reader. And we all started out as
readers. That's why we love write.
We love books, so I think it's important to write what what you
would want to read. I don't write to trend.
I don't follow the trends. Some people try to publish in
(25:05):
genres that maybe aren't their their cup of tea because they
want to hit that trend and and get popular.
Maybe that works for some people, but it's not the way I
write. I prefer to write what I love to
read, so. Yeah, I completely get that.
I mean, it just feels like a chore, doesn't it, when you're
(25:26):
trying to find something that you're just not interested in.
And I definitely agree that likethe reader would can almost feel
the enthusiasm and that you put into writing a story that you
want to write and that you're interested in as well.
And I think. I think the writing is going to
(25:47):
be better if if you're if your soul is invested in it, the
writing will be better. Yeah, amazing.
So I've got one more question for you.
It's something I always ask every writer that comes on the
show, writing life. A lot of highs, a lot of lows,
probably more lows than highs. But for you, what was your
(26:10):
biggest saw? What has been your biggest
challenge as a writer and how did you go over cover?
Well, as a writer, my biggest challenge Probably imposter
syndrome. Yeah.
(26:33):
Yeah, I I got very popular very quickly and I just didn't
believe it. It, it never really struck and
all, all along I've felt like I was just kind of playing catch
(26:53):
up to the rest of the writing community, like I, I didn't
really belong. And it's only, it's only been
recently that I've started to feel really comfortable being in
the community and saying, you know, I, I really am an author.
I mean, I've written 10 books and yet I, it's only now I'm,
I'm feeling like, like this is this is where I belong.
(27:16):
No, it's, it's weird, isn't it? I mean, I suffer from it a lot.
What do you think? Where do you think it stems from
for you? I could just.
Have you been able to pinpoint anything in particular that
could make you feel like this more so than other people?
I think that it's, it started with with my motivation for
publishing. I, I never intended to become an
(27:38):
author. As I said I was, I was working
on my doctorate in geosciences and that was where my mind was.
That was what I, I thought I would be doing for the rest of
my life. And so when I, when I started
writing, I, I had no intention of publishing it.
I was just writing for myself tosee if I could do it.
(27:59):
And then once I had two books worth of material, I said, well,
why not throw it up on Amazon and just see what happens?
And so I think it was because I went into it without the intent
to become a writer. And so when I suddenly was one,
it didn't feel real. And, and I've had a hard time
(28:22):
switching in my mind from a career in geosciences to one of
writing fantasy novels. So which to me I think was was
the right decision. But but yeah, it definitely
didn't feel real for a long time.
Yeah, hopefully it feels very real now.
Kel, thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure
(28:43):
chatting with you. It's wish you all the very best
of luck for the new book. Please go and check it out.
The link is in the description. If anyone would like to learn
more about you and all of the books that you've published,
where's the best place for them to go?
Now you can go to my website itskelkade.com KELKAD e.com.
(29:04):
I'll put the link in the description as well.
Kel, thank you very much again. It's been an absolute pleasure
and again, all the best for the the new book.
Thank you. Thank you.
I really appreciate you. Appreciate you having me on.
No. And thank you very much for
listening at home.
Thank you for listening to the Fantasy Writers Tool Shed.
If you'd like to join our writing community on Discord and
get access to fancy writing classes and books on Patreon,
check the links in the description.
And if you don't want to miss any future episodes, be sure to
follow or subscribe. And to support the show, leave a
quick rating on Spotify or iTunes and share this episode on
(00:23):
social media or with anyone who you think may be interested.
Thank you very much for listening.
Enjoy the show. Welcome to another episode of
the Fantasy Writers Tour Shed. I'm your host, Richie Berling,
(00:45):
and today I'm delighted to be joined by the New York Times
bestselling author Calcade Cal Welcome to the show.
Hello, thank you. My pleasure to be here.
Thank you very much for joining me on the day we're recording
this, your brand new book, Sanctum of the Soul.
It comes out in just seven days.Very exciting.
Congratulations. Thank you.
(01:07):
It's the last in the trilogy. Is this right in the current
series? That's correct.
Yes, the final book. How does it feel right in the
final book? It's a weight off my shoulders
for sure, but it's also really exciting because I get to see,
you know, all that I've been creating kind of wrap up and and
come to the conclusion. So I'm really excited about it.
(01:30):
Yeah, and I mean, it sounds likeyou're like, you say you're
ready to move on to something new.
Was there any sort of sort of sad aspects of moving on, like
saying goodbye to the charactersor anything like that?
Well, I really enjoy writing these books and I always leave
(01:51):
the option open that maybe I'll revisit these characters in this
world in the future installment or something, but but I don't
have any plans for that at the moment.
But yeah, it's a little bit, a little bit sad, but exciting at
the same time. Nice.
So for anyone who may not have read Yeah this series before, do
(02:11):
you fancy telling us a bit aboutit?
And what it's all about. I really love the the sort of
trope twist in this one, but would you mind telling us about
it? Yeah, so this is a, you know,
hero's journey kind of story. It starts out with a prophecy.
(02:33):
And of course, the the chosen 1 is is destined to either win or
fail. And there's a little bit of a
little bit of A twist at the beginning.
And I don't want to really go into too much about that because
it'll spoil it for anybody who hasn't read the series.
(02:56):
But we see some unusual characters going on through
throughout the series. There's there's a cranky
Forester, there's Reaper and theundead and mages and Wizards and
just a colorful carrot cast of gods.
(03:19):
A lot of different types of people come together and and
create this story. That sounds amazing.
So I think a nice tapestry of ofcharacters as well.
Do you? Do you place a lot of emphasis
on the characters when you writeyour stories?
I, I believe my stories are primarily character driven.
(03:40):
I really write it from from the character's perspective and, and
draw a lot on their their feelings and emotions and how
they respond and react to the events that are happening around
them. So yeah, I definitely lean
heavily into the characters. Yeah, what you think's the most
important part of of writing a character driven story.
(04:00):
You know, I see I'm I'm working with the right at the moment and
we were talking about this the other day.
And when you're writing those first drafts, like it's some
some aspects of that character developments and it's just
aren't there in the first draftsare the and it's for me anyway,
sort of I was just to go back and add in and develop a bit
more. But what's it like for you?
(04:21):
What's your process like when itcomes to exploring what these
characters are like and helping the reader build like solid
connections with them? Well, I, I kind of lean heavily
into the dialogue both between characters and within a
character, him or herself. I think it's important to show
(04:42):
those those inner thoughts and feelings that the character
experiences to really help the reader to connect with them,
that are to understand them, to understand their motivations and
their strengths and weaknesses, and just fill out the character
as as if it's a a real human being.
(05:03):
I think that that's the best wayto unite the the reader with the
story. Yeah, it's, it's definitely a
tricky thing. I I always remember reading a
line and a book on writing and said you don't just need to know
what a character wants for breakfast.
You need to know why he wants it.
(05:23):
And that when you think of it like that, it's like you've got
to go the extra step. It's like it's OK for this
character to feel like this, butyou've got to look at the why as
well, haven't you? That's a really reveal who they
are. They're very fascinating.
And so the world is quite uniquein the story.
And does that come from your background in science?
(05:51):
I do really enjoy creating the world's and I definitely draw
from my background in geosciences to kind of flesh out
the world and make it make it realistic, but also add that
element of fantasy to it to makeit a little bit more than what
you experienced in in real life,but also make it believable at
(06:14):
the same time. Nice.
So tell us a bit about this world, in particular in in the
series. Well, as as I mentioned, there's
there's a whole multiple pantheons of gods who have
created this, this world and many other worlds as well, but
(06:37):
it's focused on this one world. And these these gods are kind of
reminiscent of the Greek Roman gods.
You know, they have their petty squabbles and, and their
strengths and weaknesses and their their interactions and
then their motivations for interfering in the lives of of
the humans that live in the world are often petty and and
(07:02):
other times they have life altering circumstances.
And then there's the plethora ofbeings that that live in the
world besides the humans who adda little element of fantasy to
the story. And then of course we have the
humans. And some of these humans have
(07:28):
abilities that others may not have.
They may have some magic or unique abilities that make them
special and others others don't.They're just people who have to
go through the world and exist and survive as just average,
average people. So it's it's a whole cast of of
(07:51):
characters that have to satisfy these different roles that they
play. Yeah.
Do you spend a lot of time on the world building process?
It kind of comes to me as I write.
I don't. I don't spend a lot of time in
the beginning fleshing out the world.
And really when I dive into a story, I'm first thinking about
(08:16):
the characters and what is this character doing and where are
they and, and who are, are the influences on this character?
And then their world kind of starts expanding.
And as it's expanding for the character, it's expanding for
the reader and it gets larger and larger and, and integrates
(08:38):
more of, of the universe that exists around them.
So the reader gets to experiencethat awe and and the new
experiences with the with the character.
Yeah, it's definitely an approach of hearing more and
(08:58):
more people take that one. It's what I follow as well,
because the reality is we don't have the time to be spending
days building details that we potentially may never use.
So this more efficient, supposedto.
Well, it's definitely work. Works well for the reason you
just said as well, because it's more natural, it's more organic,
(09:22):
like the characters discovering things as they're moving through
the story. And yeah.
Well, and and nobody really wants to read a big information
dump at the beginning of the book.
Nobody wants to read a long drawn out explanation of the
world and it's, and all its features and, and you know,
whether it has deities or, or the religious system or the
(09:45):
magic system, you know, they, they want to experience it, like
you said, organically as, as thestory is progressing and to
really be presented of what's with what, what's relevant at
the time. And you know, if we bogged them
down with too many details in the beginning of our fantastic
world building, then the story gets really slow and maybe a
(10:08):
little bit boring. Yeah.
Do you ever worry that you've gone too far with like the world
building details and do you haveany sort of ways to try and
catch whether you've gone a little bit too too detailed?
Well, there's always a lot more that I know about the world than
(10:31):
I actually include in the books.And so I would like to integrate
some of this information into the books, but it doesn't really
have a place in the book. So it's important, not, like I
said, not to bog down in the details and just let it happen
(10:51):
as as it's presented and only only include what's relevant to
the story. Yeah, very good advice.
And one thing I wanted to ask you about, without giving too
much away about the book, was fantasy tropes.
Just generally we don't have to talk about the one that the
book, the book looks at. But what do you think about
(11:14):
tropes and mixing them up? Because do you speak to some
writers and especially some sortof newer writers and the the
sort of look at this, these sortof classic tropes and sort of
put them on a pedestal? Like we can't, you can't touch
them. That's like, this is what people
love. This is what sort of inspired us
(11:36):
to get into fantasy in the firstplace.
But there's so much fun to be had and just taking a hammer to
them and smashing us a bit. So mixing them up a bit a little
bit as well. So what's your view?
You're the the professional hey with the brilliant track record
(11:58):
of doing this and I'd love to get your insights.
Well, I think it's, it's definitely important to include
some of these well worn tropes because that's what gets people
excited about, about the genre is getting to experience these
elements that, that they've experienced in other stories.
(12:20):
And they, they really, really enjoyed them and, and want to
see more of that. And so when I started writing my
books, I decided that I wanted to include all of the things
that I really enjoyed about reading and exclude the things I
didn't like about it. And so I, I drew on, you know,
(12:43):
inspiration from things that I'dread and then added my own
element to it and in some cases completely flipped it upside
down because it's, it's fun to approach it from a different
perspective and show sometimes these tropes don't work out.
And I think it's fun to show that when when something goes
(13:05):
awry and and it doesn't happen the way it typically happens in
a fantasy story. Yeah, have you got a a trope
that you particularly dislike? For sure there's there's one
trope that I I think is a very sensitive subject.
(13:26):
I think that far too many fantasy series want to make the
female character. Maybe it's the protagonist,
maybe it's a supporting character.
In order for her to develop and grow and become stronger, they
think that it requires her to beraped.
And I've had even readers message me about some of my
(13:51):
characters saying, oh, this character needs to be raped so
she'll become stronger. And I think it's it's a horrible
trope. I don't think it should be
included in in fantasy stories. Yes.
To be honest, I don't read a lotof stories with that kind of
thing, but I didn't realize it had become quite common.
(14:12):
It is a strange, I've read it, I've read it in a number of in a
number of books. It it happens pretty frequently.
And I mean, it's important to toshow a bit of reality, you know,
in a realistic world, if there's, there's war and strife
and sometimes these horrible things happen.
But I don't think it should be arequirement or a mechanism for
(14:35):
helping your character to evolve.
I, I think that people depend onthat far too much.
It it there should be other waysto make characters stronger.
Yeah, definitely, yeah. Is there any sort of like sort
of new newish tropes that you quite like or you found quite
(14:55):
interesting? Wow, yeah, I I kind of lean back
on on the on some of the older tropes.
I really like the coming of age stories, you know, the, the rags
to riches kind of kind of tale. I.
(15:19):
Can't think of an underdog story, don't we?
Yeah, it's great. I can't think of any newer
tropes off the top of my head, but I'm sure I'm sure there's
plenty that I would appreciate. Yeah, it's interesting because
just because when you said thereabout that trope, it's like,
it's not like say, it's not something I'd say.
(15:39):
So it must be like a one that develops in the last few years,
but one I'm not really a fan of.And I'll tell you why.
It's because I came from a broken home.
But I don't like the mental figure because it's it assumes
that like the only way that you can sort of grow or overcome
(16:03):
obstacles is with the help of some kind of parental figure.
When I think the reality is a lot of people are just left to
sort of do it themselves and make their own way.
And the mental figure, when I see it used, they just cause a
sort of swoop in and save the day.
(16:26):
And I don't know, I just don't think that's the reality for a
lot of people. So that's my least famous.
Well, that's that's certainly a good one.
And and it's often often used. There's always the the wise old
wizard that that helps, you know, helps them get along or,
or the grandfatherly figure or or whatever.
(16:49):
Yeah, that's a good one. But but I can see from your
perspective how how not having that mentor in your life and
having to depend on yourself would be valuable.
Yeah, I suppose it's like it's one of the good things about
playing around with these troubles is that the different
(17:10):
perspectives that you can take and like what you've done, you
can you can really find a lot oforiginality and just spinning
it. So it's always a good one to
play around with. And something I was to talk to
you about was your journey through writing, because your
latest series is published by 4 and you've got a very successful
(17:32):
self-publishing self published series, haven't you called The
King's Dark Tidings? Yes.
And So what was it like for you?Like starting out with writing?
Is that where you began with TheKing's Dark Tidings?
And how has it been for you? Yeah, I, when I first started
(17:52):
writing, I was actually working on my doctorate in geosciences
and I ran out of funding. And so I was taking a bit of a
hiatus and I started writing just for the fun of it, to give
me something to do. And I started writing a
different series in the beginning, but then quickly this
(18:13):
character kind of took over my mind.
He kept revisiting me and I and he was it was so funny to me
that I, I started writing littlebits and pieces about that
character and and eventually I just switched completely to a
new book and started writing. And that was that was reskin
from the King's dark tithing series.
(18:34):
And so I started publishing those myself, self-publishing.
And after they became very successful, I was contacted by
my editor at Tor who asked me ifI would be interesting and and
writing a series for them and and I just jumped on it.
(18:55):
I I really enjoy being a self published author, but I also
enjoyed publishing with Tor so Ijust consider myself a hybrid
author. Yeah, it's a, it's the best of
both worlds, isn't it? I think.
I think nowadays a lot of like traditionally published writers
are trying to do more of the self published stuff from that's
(19:19):
from a lot of the writers that I've spoken to in the last year
or so. What was it like when you began
self-publishing your stories, and what was the sort of the
catalyst, Do you think that sortof sparked all of the attention
around them? I think I, I was, I was putting
(19:45):
a lot of my, my stress and anxiety into writing it and it
kind of provided me a release of, of that energy.
And I think that really struck Achord with readers.
A lot of people have written to me saying they were going
through a hard time and that reading the books really helped
(20:09):
them to. Kind of relax and feel some
sense of security, which I foundto be interesting considering
the content of the books. But but I think that maybe that
that emotion that I was expressing during the writing
phase really must have come across and and kind of worked it
(20:32):
way into the readers. I think it was also good timing.
I think I, I published it the first book, December 29th of
2015. It was right at the end of the
year. It was right after Christmas,
you know, people had had their gift cards or whatever and, and
people were off of school or work and they were looking for
(20:55):
some entertainment. And I think it was partially
just really good timing. So there's there's so many
elements that that could go intoit, but in some ways maybe it
was a little bit of luck. That's amazing.
I can say it's the story is is spoken to a lot of people, which
is a powerful thing. And and do you just continue to
(21:19):
expand that series? Yes, that's an ongoing series.
I'm currently writing book 7 andthat series the which I hope
will come out maybe around the summertime.
Nice. So.
So what's it like then in livingthis hybrid life as a sort of
(21:42):
self published off and traditionally published over?
Are there any sort of benefits to one side over the other or
any negatives that you found? What's your view so far?
Well, I've, I've been part of the self published community a
(22:03):
lot more than with the traditionally published
community. I've attended a lot more
conferences and things like thatwith self published community.
So I feel a little bit more connected with the self
published community. With the traditionally
published, There's this, there'sthis idea by some people that
(22:27):
some people carry that you're not a real author unless you
were traditionally published. And I think that's really
changing a lot now a lot of people no longer hold that
opinion that, and I think deservedly so people, people who
self publish are, are definitelyauthors and nobody should be
(22:49):
looking down upon them because self-publishing is hard.
It's it that you have to do everything yourself.
You know, you, you have to do your advertising and your book
formatting and your, your artwork and you know you have to
do it or you have to hire someone to do it.
And you are your own publisher. So I think there's a lot of
(23:12):
growing respect for self published authors.
Yeah, definitely. Like you've got a.
It's not just being a writer, isit?
You've got to do what, two or three different professions?
Yeah. So verify it's.
It's great to see success stories like this and we do have
a lot of indie authors, self published authors, listening to
the show and I'm sure they'll take a lot of inspiration from
(23:34):
seeing your fantastic success. So yeah, go and check it out.
We'll put the link for King's Dark Tarding books in the
description. Do you have any advice for
anyone who's maybe going considering going down a
self-publishing? Like what would you say is the
best place to start and what arethe sort of hurdles to avoid?
(23:55):
Well, I think the the 1st place to start is you need a good
book. I've met a lot of people who
spend most of their time focusing on marketing and
advertising, trying to find the newest algorithm and the newest
gimmick to really push their books.
But if you don't have a good book, no matter how much you
(24:18):
push it, it's, it's just not going to find the success that
you hope for. And even if it does find some
success through intensive marketing, you may not find
success with subsequent books because people may not like it
very much. So you need to start with a with
a really good book. And I think it's really
important to write what you love.
(24:43):
Write what you want to write. Write the story that you want to
read as a reader. And we all started out as
readers. That's why we love write.
We love books, so I think it's important to write what what you
would want to read. I don't write to trend.
I don't follow the trends. Some people try to publish in
(25:05):
genres that maybe aren't their their cup of tea because they
want to hit that trend and and get popular.
Maybe that works for some people, but it's not the way I
write. I prefer to write what I love to
read, so. Yeah, I completely get that.
I mean, it just feels like a chore, doesn't it, when you're
(25:26):
trying to find something that you're just not interested in.
And I definitely agree that likethe reader would can almost feel
the enthusiasm and that you put into writing a story that you
want to write and that you're interested in as well.
And I think. I think the writing is going to
(25:47):
be better if if you're if your soul is invested in it, the
writing will be better. Yeah, amazing.
So I've got one more question for you.
It's something I always ask every writer that comes on the
show, writing life. A lot of highs, a lot of lows,
probably more lows than highs. But for you, what was your
(26:10):
biggest saw? What has been your biggest
challenge as a writer and how did you go over cover?
Well, as a writer, my biggest challenge Probably imposter
syndrome. Yeah.
(26:33):
Yeah, I I got very popular very quickly and I just didn't
believe it. It, it never really struck and
all, all along I've felt like I was just kind of playing catch
(26:53):
up to the rest of the writing community, like I, I didn't
really belong. And it's only, it's only been
recently that I've started to feel really comfortable being in
the community and saying, you know, I, I really am an author.
I mean, I've written 10 books and yet I, it's only now I'm,
I'm feeling like, like this is this is where I belong.
(27:16):
No, it's, it's weird, isn't it? I mean, I suffer from it a lot.
What do you think? Where do you think it stems from
for you? I could just.
Have you been able to pinpoint anything in particular that
could make you feel like this more so than other people?
I think that it's, it started with with my motivation for
publishing. I, I never intended to become an
(27:38):
author. As I said I was, I was working
on my doctorate in geosciences and that was where my mind was.
That was what I, I thought I would be doing for the rest of
my life. And so when I, when I started
writing, I, I had no intention of publishing it.
I was just writing for myself tosee if I could do it.
(27:59):
And then once I had two books worth of material, I said, well,
why not throw it up on Amazon and just see what happens?
And so I think it was because I went into it without the intent
to become a writer. And so when I suddenly was one,
it didn't feel real. And, and I've had a hard time
(28:22):
switching in my mind from a career in geosciences to one of
writing fantasy novels. So which to me I think was was
the right decision. But but yeah, it definitely
didn't feel real for a long time.
Yeah, hopefully it feels very real now.
Kel, thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure
(28:43):
chatting with you. It's wish you all the very best
of luck for the new book. Please go and check it out.
The link is in the description. If anyone would like to learn
more about you and all of the books that you've published,
where's the best place for them to go?
Now you can go to my website itskelkade.com KELKAD e.com.
(29:04):
I'll put the link in the description as well.
Kel, thank you very much again. It's been an absolute pleasure
and again, all the best for the the new book.
Thank you. Thank you.
I really appreciate you. Appreciate you having me on.
No. And thank you very much for
listening at home.
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