August 19, 2025 • 44 mins
Lori Oliver, Co-Founder & CEO of The Inactive Company, a sleep performance brand dedicated to developing technology and tools that enhance rest and recovery for everyone. Its innovative sleep mask, Inactivators™, is a scientifically backed solution to improve sleep. She has spent over 25 years as a veteran in brand and product building, driving business for corporate, consulting, and entrepreneurial companies from global to grassroots.
Jill MacRae is a marketing executive with over 25 years of experience in building businesses and brands across B2B, B2C, and non-profit sectors. She is the founder and principal of JMACRAE GROUP, a boutique consulting firm that advises and collaborates with companies to formulate and implement strategic initiatives for growth and sustainability. Additionally, she is a co-founder of The Inactive Company, a sleep performance brand dedicated to developing technology and tools that enhance rest and recovery for everyone. Its innovative sleep mask, Inactivators™, is a scientifically backed solution to improve sleep.
Lori and Jill's Links:
https://inactiveco.com/
Learn More about Dr. Darian:
Website: https://doctordarianparker.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/darianparker/
Dr. Darian's Affiliates:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, so today's program, again, in this podcast, we
always try to talk about something that's unique, but
it's also pretty relatable and can be used pretty instantly for
our colleagues here. So we have Lori and Jill here.
Thank you so much from the Inactive Company.
Thanks for just giving me some of your time.
I really appreciate it. Oh, no.
Thank you for having us, Darian.We appreciate it.
(00:23):
Great to be here. Well, this is a topic I really
think it'd be interesting talking about working with a
regular shift workers and in ourcase with our audience, working
with clients who are working, who are traveling regularly,
working night shift, all these different things.
But let's dive into a little bitbecause I love operational
definitions of things. It's, it's we often get tripped
(00:46):
up because we actually don't know what things mean often the
time. So would love for one of you to
talk a little bit about I just talked surface about it, but how
do we would we defined a regularirregular shift?
Workers So it's really, it's a really interesting topic because
you know, what we talk about a lot is training yourself to
(01:07):
sleep. And you have, you know, you were
born to sleep in a cycle, your circadian rhythm.
And when you even in the womb was already set to sort of work
when the sun, you know, when thesun goes down and then when the
sun comes up, you're sort of wired to wake up again.
So for a regular shift workers, they have to sort of retrain
(01:28):
their body and their sleep routine in order to shift their
circadian rhythm to make sure that they're optimizing their
sleep. So part of that is getting into
a, you know, a good routine, making sure that you can still
your brain can still start producing that melatonin to make
you fall asleep. So you've got to create the
environment, which is part of a lot of what we talked about on
(01:49):
what our products help you do. And a regular shift worker could
be anybody from what you would traditionally think of like a
first responder, firefighters, police officers, etcetera,
medical professionals that work night shifts and and others that
kind of come to mind typically. But also I think you have to
(02:10):
think about irregular shift workers also as just you and me
because we're busy people, especially if you have a
professional business, you have a family, you are typically
challenged by getting consistent, this consistent
regular ship asleep that Jill was just talking about.
And so you're constantly trying to shift your sleep to maximize
(02:34):
and get enough sleep. But still, I think a lot of us
struggle with, especially if we're traveling, really being
consistent and regular. So in some ways everybody is a
shift worker. That's really interesting.
And Laurie, it makes me think ofand now we have a large remote
workforce and in many ways you could say remote work is a
(02:57):
regular shift work because there's often no start and end
time for a lot of people and it could really be hazardous to
your sleep cycles based off of you just can work anytime you
want. Well, and I'll tell you what,
saying when COVID hit, yeah, when COVID hit, I sort of went
back to my college days and said, I'm just going to do this
(03:18):
tonight, you know, or I'm going to wake up at 4:00 AM, I'll bang
this out, whatever. And that is the worst thing any
of us can do. So I literally had to resist
that urge and retrain myself to stay regular and consistent
based on, you know. To answer, I'm guilty of it for
sure. Yeah, I think we all are guilty
(03:39):
of it. It's it's interesting to come
from a place of talking about something but also knowing it
intimately in many ways. Yeah, to for that.
So what are some things are a regular shift workers are
dealing with in terms of their sleep and their struggles Just
so we also can kind of start looking at the symptomology of
this and understanding what is the struggles.
(04:00):
If a client comes to me and theysay hey, and this happens
regularly, they are traveling every week for work, they're on
a plane, what is the struggle that they're dealing with
primarily or struggles? I mean, really it's like I said,
it's really the struggle is getting into a sleep routine
(04:20):
that will signal your body to start shutting down so that you
can optimize your sleep every day.
And that might change. I mean, we work with a lot of
professional athletes and it changes weekly, sometimes daily
for them when they're in hotels.So really it's, that is the
biggest struggle because everybody has some sort of
challenge, whether it's noise from another room or it's light
(04:42):
coming in from under the window or it is a, you know, my room is
too hot and I'm not really sure what to do about it.
So really being able to sort of say this is what works for me
and this is sort of my routine that I'm going to take with me
wherever I go. I think one of the other things
Darian, in addition to what Jilljust said, which is so true, is
(05:02):
that shift workers don't realizethey don't have a great
awareness of the fat or accountability for the fact that
they're not optimizing their sleep or getting enough sleep.
And fact, there was a Harvard study done of 7000 firefighters,
for example, where almost half of them didn't realize they
(05:23):
weren't getting enough sleep, but they were suffering from
sleep disorders. And athletes tell us all the
time and they're also research has shown that they're guilty of
not really getting it, that they're not getting enough sleep
to that the sleep that their body needs.
So just that awareness is also abig hurdle and an issue.
(05:46):
What's been the disconnect for the lack of awareness you think?
Sleep when you're dead culture, you know, really that fact that
it's a badge of honor to not sleep a lot and be proud of it
and power through the day. And so we've all tricked
ourselves into thinking that we are as good as if we had slept
(06:08):
the required 7 to 9 hours our body needs, but we're not.
And you know, research also shows that when you don't sleep
7 to 9 hours a night, you can't make good decisions.
You don't have a good mood, you your reaction times are way
slower, you're not accurate, youhave accidents, there are
(06:29):
problems, you know, so it doesn't matter who you are.
And some jobs, especially for ship workers are critically,
they, they manage life and deathsituations.
You have to be your best. So I think that it really is
mindset that is the biggest disconnect.
And we've trained ourselves, particularly Americans to, you
(06:50):
know, gosh, you should be grateful if you get 2 weeks of
vacation a year, you should work, work until you're just
about to drop. So it's sleep.
Redefining sleep culture I thinkis the biggest issue.
The other disconnect is people relate being in bed with
(07:11):
sleeping. So they they're like, well, I
was in bed, but I was reading orlooking at my phone or late in
that really you need to shut everything down and shut your
your brain down. So just because you're in bed
doesn't mean you're breathing. And if you're playing video
games or looking at your phone, doom scrolling, talking,
whatever, you're making it that much worse.
You're saying you think you're resting, but you're not
(07:32):
sleeping. Most definitely all great points
and things I talk to my clients about regularly actually and
have someone after this so I'm going to be talking about this
again actually. So it's all very relevant so
let's jump into some strategies here.
I think one of the things peoplelike about the podcast is that
we just get into, hey, what can I do?
(07:54):
So I know this could this is probably going to cover a lot of
things here. But for our regular shift
workers, what are some a few very instant strategies that
they could do to actually start under well understanding their
sleep patterns but also making achange behavioral intervention
to get better sleep for them? Wear a sleep mask when you, when
(08:20):
you go to sleep. No, really, I mean, I think
it's, it's, it's sort of like take the first step, you know,
admit to yourself like I need tostart a sleep routine.
And whether whether or not you're wearing a sleep mask,
it's have the mindset. Call yourself on it.
Set your alarm for no less than 7 hours.
Tell yourself, you know, I'm going to start turning
(08:41):
everything off 30 minutes beforeit's time to sleep and really
start training your brain almosthave Libyan style.
Like when I see my bed, I see mysleep mask.
I put my phone away. Your shoulders start to drop,
your eyes get a little sleepy. I mean, it really does.
Sleep is not magic. It's actually something that you
can train for and perfect and have to do that like you would
(09:03):
train for anything else. You've got to train for it.
And Speaking of shifting the mindsets, we talk about sleep
hygiene in terms of something that people in your world may
relate better to, and that is develop a sleep warm up.
Just like you stretch before youworkout, you need to power down
(09:24):
and do the things that Jill saidand then consider sleep your
sleep workout. It is as important that anything
you do movement wise during whenyou're awake, it's cleansing
your brain, it's regenerating your muscles.
It's really it's it's literally hitting every system in your
body. So changing your mindset around
(09:46):
sleep is productive. That's why we're called the
inactive company, because we really wanted people to
understand that just because you're laying there doesn't mean
your body isn't working just as hard as when you're doing a
workout. I would also say that that in
addition to kind of paying attention to how you power down
at night, think about how good sleep actually starts the minute
(10:10):
you wake up in the morning. And an easy thing to do is to
get morning sunlight in your eyes.
Have your first cup of coffee ortea outside if you can.
If you can't sit by a window and, you know, just sit in the
sun if you can and just get somelight into your eyes.
If it's a cloudy day, you're still getting that light.
(10:31):
That kind of anchors your circadian rhythm and begins to
set you up for a good night of sleep 12 hours later.
About four art I'm going to start getting to different
regular shift workers here. So this is one that's pretty
common, especially with my clients.
And I know a lot of my colleagues there's your, your
weekly business traveler. And I know you mentioned sleep
(10:53):
mask. I have sleep mask.
I, I'm very serious about sleep.So I, I'm all about this, but I
think a lot of my colleagues were just getting into someone
who's traveling every week and they're going to a variety of
different time zones. What are some kind of easier
things or some quick things theycould do to start to better
train themselves for better sleep in in that schedule they
(11:15):
have? Don't be extreme as you try to
change your schedule. Shift in 15 to 30 minute
increments. You know, resist the urge to
arrive at your destination and sleep for six hours.
That's not helpful. So shift slightly and give
(11:35):
yourself the time to catch up. You can bank sleep, You can
sleep more before you leave on atrip, and that's helpful.
You can nap, but don't nap longer than 30, Max 60 minutes.
But really it's about sort of subtly shifting to help your
body transition to a new time zone and schedule.
(11:56):
Not an abrupt here I am, I'm going to sleep half a day and
then I'll wake up refreshed. And take take your sleep routine
with you like it's the whatever you're doing at home.
Also do it on the road because again, it's the signal, it's
behavioral. So it doesn't really matter
(12:16):
where you are or what time is it.
As you start getting into your routine, your body will say,
that's my signal. I got to start relaxing.
Let's talk more about bank banking, sleep.
I don't think a lot of my colleagues probably have heard
of this so much. Let's dive more into that.
And what does the literature sayabout banking sleep?
Because I have to be honest, I haven't heard much about this
(12:37):
myself. Well, we always like to first
say we are not sleep doctors, sowe don't want to talk above our
pay scale. But we do pay attention to the
research, that of primary sourcesources like Harvard Medical
School, the National Institute of Health, etcetera, and to some
very prominent sleep doctors andsleep banking, just like naps is
(12:59):
a real thing. But just like I said, you, you
have to be intentional about it.You have to say I'm going to
leave in 2 days. So tonight I'm going to sleep 30
minutes longer. I'm not going to run myself
ragged for the two days prior toleaving on an overnight flight,
(13:20):
you know, across in the ocean. I'm so you have to kind of just
plan ahead and talk to yourself around.
I'm not going to go, I'm going to go 80%.
I'm not going to go 110% for theday before I have to travel from
Atlanta to London. And then you, you, you bank up a
(13:40):
few extra minutes and we're again, we're not talking about
hours, but you just you, you have a few extra minutes so that
then you can help start manage asubtle shift to the new time
zone while you're there. That makes a lot of sense with
that. And now just to be clear, so
(14:01):
like you said, not hours, I think a lot of people think I'm
just going to sleep a couple hours, add that in.
So we're saying that that's actually probably a negative at
that point versus just doing some minutes for that.
Yeah, if you just think about itthe same way the literature
talks about naps, it's similar. You know, you don't want to take
a three hour nap in the middle of the day when you're home.
(14:23):
It's not helpful. It can be very helpful to take a
twenty, 30-40 minute nap in the middle of the day when you're
home. Same with if you're traveling
and you're trying to shift time zones.
You just can't. It's not you're groggy.
You're not. You're not doing yourself any
favors. I mean, I wish I could tell you
(14:44):
exactly what's happening with your brain and your body, but
it's not helpful. Most definitely.
What about the use of melatonin for clients when they're
traveling regularly? Can we talk a little bit about
that? So melatonin occurs naturally in
(15:05):
your brain and the most effective way to optimize
melatonin is to make sure that you're an environment that has
complete blackout because that is the true signal to your brain
to produce that melatonin and that's actually what makes you
fall asleep. Everybody reacts differently and
it's really funny because when Lori and I started this company,
(15:26):
like I was OD ING on melatonin and I would falling asleep is
not my issue. Staying asleep is my issue.
So I would wake up in the Melanoma, I would actually take
a lot, fall asleep, sleep hard and then wake up and I couldn't
get back to sleep. Everybody reacts differently,
but if you can actually again, train yourself to fall asleep as
naturally as possible with a with a blacked out environment,
(15:49):
you're better off than actually taking over the counter
melatonin. It it is immensely helpful for
some people. Now there are people who don't
produce enough on their own, andthat's kind of where it started
was helping those people fall asleep.
But it it shouldn't be treated as an ongoing sleep aid because
your body does start to metabolize it.
(16:11):
So at some point it won't work for you anymore.
How can I just thought of this when you said that how can
someone find out if they're not producing enough melatonin in
their body? That's a great question.
You'd probably have to be diagnosed.
I'll see if I can cite a study for you.
But I think. I'm thinking about someone who's
(16:32):
if I, if I'm telling someone that at least I'm thinking I'm
like, well, how would I know that?
Like you know that that I think would be pretty interesting to
know. Let me see.
I'm looking at my notes, see if I can find the answer while we
talk about. Sorry, Laura, you're going to
say something. Well, I was just going to say
that it is, you know, taking melatonin externally doesn't
(16:53):
work for everybody, even if you are producing melatonin.
And, you know, I think it's important just here to say you
also don't want to rely on Benadryl or, you know, any other
kind of aid like that that some people take for sleep because
that really is not good for yourbrain in the long term.
(17:17):
It's it's turn your brain completely off.
And there's a lot of research around that.
Melatonin, you know, a lot of people, and I'm mentioning it
because a lot of people think ofmelatonin as being benign.
And that's what we thought aboutBenadryl.
Benadryl was in everything and people were taking it off label
as a sleep aid because we all thought it was not harmful.
(17:41):
And guess what? Turns out it is.
So I think the same with any kind of supplement.
Melatonin is a supplement, It's not regulated.
So just use it cautiously and carefully.
So here's the answer. The symptoms are what you would
think they would be. Difficulty falling asleep,
waking up repeatedly, feeling tired during the day, super
groggy, memory lapses, those types of things.
(18:04):
And your primary care provider can do a blood or urine test to
measure your melatonin levels and then counsel you after that
so it can be tested. I find I find that pretty
interesting because I don't think I've ever had that
conversation with a client that maybe you're not producing
enough melatonin. Yeah, which I think is pretty
unique. It's something I would
definitely have to add into my practice to discuss that when
(18:27):
someone tells me these are the things they're struggling with.
One way, right? One way to do your own test is
perhaps to wear a sleep mask that provides 100% darkness.
Because if you are not getting 100% darkness, and if you listen
to Andrew Huberman, he's, you know, cited all sorts of
research around this very fact, if you don't get absolute 100%
(18:50):
darkness, you can't get your owninternal signal to your brain to
produce melatonin. So even if there is a red light
attached to a screen you know still on at night in your room
with this otherwise dark, that is impacting the production of
your melatonin naturally. Would you think that would be
(19:11):
good to discuss? I never thought about this, but
I think it'd be interesting. Part of a strategy is when you
know for your business travelers, whether they're
booking hotels and places like that themselves or someone at
the company, is that they need to really focus on finding
accommodations or lodging that works for their sleep schedule
and for for the darkness for that.
(19:33):
Because I find when I travel a decent amount, most places that
I stay are nowhere near like my house.
Like I have the full on 100% darkness in my room.
I can't even see my hand in front of my eyes.
Like at night, I need it to be super dark.
But I find that most places don't do that, so it may require
more work for a person to figurethat out, you know?
(19:54):
Which is what why we came to thesleep mask and why we decided
this needed to be re engineered and innovative.
It's 100 year old product that no one ever really considered
for. How can we use it to how can we
build it to achieve complete darkness no matter where you
are, The second factor to producing melatonin and to
(20:17):
inducing sleep is coolness. So.
We were asking why hasn't anyonebuilt kind of a temperature
regulation naturally into a sleep mask?
Because if you can't afford a fancy hotel that has blackout
curtains and nice Matt cooling mattresses and that sort of
thing, you know, a sleep mask isan affordable solution that is
(20:42):
easy to travel with that can accomplish the same thing.
So it's, it's, it's really interesting how we make it
really complicated, which also stresses us out and makes us
sleep less. But if you keep it simple and
you're just consistent and, you know, you find a tool or two
that works for you and you startappreciating the benefits of
(21:05):
sleep and you really internalizehow good sleep is for you.
I think a lot of people would besurprised how sleep comes more
naturally and they'll get more. Yeah, most definitely.
You know what's interesting, I was fine when I talked to
clients that and they, you know,are struggling with their mood
(21:25):
regulation and and emotional regulation.
I. Please.
Jill's like, let me, let me raise the hand here.
And I always tell them I said, and they're like, I don't know
what to do. I, I feel like I, I don't want
to like go off the hook all the time.
And I'm, I'm irritable when I say, you know, actually if you
just slept better or probably get rid of most of that for you,
you would feel more even regularly as a person.
(21:48):
But I think what we as humans do, we often jump to the more
complicated idea or treatment totreat something instead of
mastering the basics. It couldn't possibly make you
sleeping less. Most people don't realize that
sleep isn't just, I mean, your body is working really hard and
you have to be asleep for it to work really hard.
So it strengthens your immune system.
(22:10):
It strengthens your cognitive ability, it improves your
memory. You know, it does all these
things for you. And the other reason that people
don't talk about it so much and the culture that we live in is
that sleep is the only human performance factor that you
cannot replace. You can't cheat it.
You can't fake it. You can't drink a tonic for it.
Take a pill for it. Your body my sleep.
(22:30):
And we we were designed that way.
And so, you know, in our today and I also guilty of buying
everything off of Amazon and Instagram.
You can't buy anything for sleep.
So people will default to, oh, let me try, you know, this
smoothie with, you know something in it that will make
you, it might make you go to sleep, but it's not replacing
your sleep. Right.
(22:52):
And people often using differentaids and that are basically just
sedation for people versus actually having deep sleep, REM
sleep, things of that nature. So how will we approach none of
our business travelers, let's say, and this is pretty regular,
kind of your night shift nurses,your, your shift workers.
(23:13):
Actually, casino workers are great.
I lived in Vegas for a long time.
A lot of people work in casinos overnight and struggling.
They struggle with how do I fit an exercise with this crazy
insane schedule that I have and also how do I get great sleep so
I can have good exercise sessions for that.
How will we approach this? God love them because the the
(23:36):
casino workers in particular arestanding in the most brightly
lit room for, you know, the entire shift.
And that could be as you said and probably is in the evening
worst time ever. And they may try to work out
after their shift, which just raises their cortisol and makes
(23:59):
them even less likely to go to sleep.
So I think what the best probably the best strategies are
to work out earlier pre shift. Make sure that you are doing
kind of the morning basics to set yourself up for an evening
of sleep success like the morning light, but then work out
earlier on the earlier side. Stop drinking caffeine by noon
(24:23):
because the half life of caffeine is 6 hours and you'll
be feeling it later. Even if thinking you need it to
get through the shift. Try without it and see what
happens. I bet you'll manage and I think
probably lacking out when you get home, you know, the sleep
(24:43):
mask. Again, we keep harping on this
not because we're a sleep mask company, but because it just
makes so much sense. Literally, we have clients,
athletes who are traveling now overseas to go to football
games, playing at night, play inthe afternoon, all different
times of day, you know, all overthe US, even different time
(25:04):
frames. And they're recognizing that
just the simple visual cue of I'm going to put on this mask
and I'm going to black out the world.
If you're coming off from your casino shift and all that light
and you suddenly achieve 100% blackout by putting on this, we
(25:29):
call it a performance tool, you will get better sleep.
I mean, I think it really is just shifting to time to go to
sleep. When we say blackout, we mean
darkness. We don't mean lose your mind,
no. Exactly.
Just to be clear. For your life, I want to be
clear here. Like, you're just getting
blackout. Like, wow, you say someone's
(25:49):
going. To change it at the wrong time,
that's fine. Over like what is not?
What? Here like not ten shots.
Yeah, 10 shots blackout. You're good.
No, no. Then you'll read your sleep mask
in the morning when you have a hangover.
Your father. Speaking of it.
Yeah, right. So Speaking of sleep masks, you
(26:11):
mentioned like the the design ofthe sleep.
Now all sleep masks are not created equal in this.
I tried ton of them. And this is I think a really
good moment here in this podcastto teach what is a in a really
effective sleep mask to use for regular shift folks or if you're
just traveling somewhere for summer vacation, whatever.
(26:32):
And because that's what's alwaysa struggle.
I have that for myself and otherclients where you're like, oh,
I'm just going somewhere four orfive hours away.
And that first night of sleep, just so terrible when you get to
the hotel or wherever. Well, the sleep mask that we
designed, Lori really designed it as we have a patent on ours
and it's because we incorporatedall of the features and benefits
(26:56):
that address the needs of your body to help you fall asleep
like 100% darkness. It is customizable to your face
and head size so that you can achieve that.
You push it around your Lori, you can model, you can actually
push it on your nose and eyebrow.
We do have a face change material that helps with
thermoregulation, so it actuallyabsorbs the heat off your face,
(27:19):
leaving your face feeling coolerbecause your body temperature
rises as your circadian rhythm starts to wind down and that's
one of the things that makes youwake up.
So if you can stay cooler a little longer, you'll sleep a
little longer. We actually tested this with a
third party testing company. You can sleep up to 30 minutes
longer. Comfort is also key.
So hopefully I admit you can find a mouse with ours doesn't
(27:41):
have any hardware. There are others out there.
We actually have a self stretching elastic strap so that
a, you can place it on your headwhere you want, but also if it's
a little tight, you can pull it and it self adjusts.
That's super key and it's ergonomically designed.
It's super light. You can actually open your eyes
completely underneath. And if you have super long
(28:02):
eyelashes or falsies, they won'tbump the inside of the mask
because we designed it with likethis concave pocket.
So any and all of the all of those working together is why we
were able to get a patent on ours.
But those are the things that wewould recommend when you're
looking for a sleep mask. Everybody's face shape is
(28:23):
different. Your features are different
sizes and shapes. And so you know to have one mask
that you can actually mold to your personal features and fits
your head and allows you to sleep on your back, on your
side, on your stomach, however you want to without any kind of
bumps or big Velcro humps or anything is what we were going
(28:45):
for. And you know, we even thought a
lot of people were men and womenhave braids and ponies.
So we wanted the strap to accommodate the wearer to, to
put any a pair through the middle of the strap or to help
them position the mask on their head and face the way it's
comfortable for them. So we, you know, we were hoping
(29:05):
to give everybody a lot of options to achieve the 100%
darkness and to also be comfortable when they slept.
So what are some other tools in the toolkit from an act of that
help people to sleep better, especially, again keeping in
mind for this crew, especially our regular shift workers, what
(29:26):
are some things they can add to their toolkit to help them with
this? We have what we call the Sleep 7
Playbook that's actually on our website and you can get to it
pretty easy and it's 7 steps. It's based on cognitive
behavioral insomnia therapy and it's really, you know, there's
seven steps to everything, right?
So in steps of being successful,7 steps to better habits, and we
(29:47):
adapted that to seven steps to better sleep.
And we call it the Sleep 7 Playbook, which incorporates a
lot of the things that we talkedabout, you know, make sure that
you are setting your alarm for no no earlier than 7 to 9 hours.
Make sure that your room temperature is super cool.
Make sure that your sleeping space is just that it's a safe
(30:10):
place to go to sleep and you're not working also guilty, but
you're not working, reading, eating in the space that you're
supposed to be sleeping. So they're really good.
Seven steps to helping you cue your brain again.
So that you say I'm going to start getting into this, I'm
automatically going to cue my body that it's time to sleep,
(30:30):
and then your body starts to work for you.
We can link that in your podcast.
That's great notes if you want to Darian because it is science
backed and the CBTI that Jill was just talking about it.
Research has shown that it is the most effective intervention
for insomnia, and so we really did base it on science, and it
(30:55):
addresses everything from habit to sleep culture, you know,
teaming up and supporting other people.
Community Communities. Affirmations, utilizations, all
of it. So it's all condensed into 7
easy steps that I think that your audience could help to
share with ship workers and others.
We were just talking with firefighters who said that they
(31:19):
just need to wrap their heads around getting everybody
comfortable with it's time to goto sleep, even if it's in the
daytime because most of their calls are at night.
You know, they all report to a their first shift earlier in the
evening, but they don't go to bed necessarily early.
So they're working to change that together, not just, you
(31:42):
know, one off one person at a time, but but doing it as a
whole group. That makes a lot of sense.
I was thinking too a little bit about Jill.
You mentioned the setting your alarm clock for the 7 to 9
hours. This is not a topic I think I've
discussed when I've talked aboutsleep in the past.
Is there? Do we think that people don't do
(32:04):
that regularly? Why?
Why would people set it for lessthan that?
Let's talk about that. I think they, they just say, oh,
I, you know, I haven't gone to sleep yet and all of a sudden
it's midnight and I have to be up at six, you know, so go to
bed at 10 and set it for still set it for 6:00.
And you're, you know, you're getting your 7 to 9 hours or,
you know, one when you start to get into a habit and a sleep
(32:27):
warm up. And I'm honestly speaking from
personal experience here, Lori will vouch I was a horrible
sleeper. You know, sleep also be get
sleep. Doctors will tell you that.
So the more you can sleep, the more you will sleep if you allow
your body to. And I went from probably 4 1/2,
five hours tonight to 6 1/2 or 7hours a night just because I
(32:49):
didn't get up at 5:30 or 6 or, you know, I started backing
things up and I, you know, you can, you can, I also started
getting deeper REM sleep. And, you know, in the beginning
I was like getting really short cycles and waking up all the
time. But then I was like, oh, it's
not time to wake up that. So I started, you know, training
myself and I just didn't get outof bed.
(33:10):
The 7 to 9 hours is for a reason, and that is it gives
your body enough time to go through the required 4 to 5
R.E.M. Cycles that really do all the
work in your body while you're sleeping.
Yeah, I, you know, that kind of sleep opportunity time, I just
don't think enough people give themselves enough of that and
(33:32):
when I talk to clients about their sleep, sometimes I'm
actually not sure if they're telling me the truth about their
sleep We're. All in kind of like.
Right. It's kind of like the whole
term, like people often overestimate how much is the
exercise and underestimate how much they eat and I think add
sleep to this, that people oftenoverestimate how much they're
sleeping. There aren't only.
(33:54):
Your sleep. We talk about that, too.
Exactly because because I, I don't think people are asleep
because they'll say, OK, this is, these are the parameters.
Here's our training program for sleep.
But then it's always, they were doomed scrolling, they were on
their phone, and then all the sudden the time gets away and
then that opportunity. So I think that's another
important part of the conversation is just honesty
(34:16):
about your sleep habits, you know?
I think my cue was I was gettingsick a lot.
I actually ended up with pneumonia.
I was in the hospital like called L'Oreal and and that was
my biggest wake up moment. Since then, it's been 2 years.
I haven't had a cold. I haven't been sick at all since
I started. Like I was like, it's, it's got
to be sleep because you know, I was trying to do everything
(34:38):
else, right. Are we going to say something in
addition to that? Just I think the people don't
realize, they don't think peoplenotice that they look tired or
that they're not as sharp as they usually are, but people
notice, they noted. And.
So I think you have, if you haveclients who come in one day and
(34:59):
look tired, I think that you're doing them a favor by saying you
look tired. How did you sleep last night?
What time did you go to bed? You know, that doesn't have to
take up your whole session, but it could be an important
reminder that I notice, I see you and you can you're, you're
better you, you know, you can dobetter and be better and be
healthier. Yeah, it's just such a
(35:22):
interesting conversation as I experienced this a lot with
clients and and maybe this is a little different thing, but I
think similar. And again, I think not talked
about is, you know, when I askedsomebody get with them, hey, how
are you feeling today? And if their answer is
consistently just OK, like it's never good or it's just I'm
like, this is probably a sleep issue here.
(35:45):
I mean, how can your day always be just OK all the time?
Like and what? And so it's really talking to
them like, hey, your performance, sleep is the
foundation of this performance and among amongst a lot of other
things. But I really think it's a
massive cure off for most emotional issues that happen
with people. They're very uneven with poor
(36:06):
sleep. I'm like this.
Is hands up episodes Raise your hand up this zoo.
There have been studies that have shown just addressing the
actual performance, not the mood, but that if two teams, all
things being equal, play a game,the team that slept better the
(36:27):
night before will win every time, hands down.
So it's so interesting to see that on another day, if some,
you know, a different team sleptbetter, then people will play
better. I mean, and so we're apply that
across the board to everything we've been talking about, your
mood, your creativity, your decision making, your accuracy,
(36:51):
your ability to be injury free in any kind of workout or
anything that you do it. It really is across the board
the foundational factor, as you said Darien, that can really
help keep you on the better. Side of the equation, are we
seeing teams like actually focuson this?
(37:11):
I mean, as much as I mean, obviously if as athlete teams
are actually traveling with eachother, they're going to
different places or at differenthotels and stuff, are the actual
coaches and organizations saying, hey, this is a
performance issue and we're going to implement a protocol
for this? Are we seeing more of that?
Yes, the we work with a lot of the NFL teams, they consider our
(37:36):
sleep mask to be part of the performance equipment.
In fact, so we have the a travelcase that not only keeps the
mask, you know, bacteria and dust free and moisture
resistant, but also kind of looks cool.
But it gives the sleep mask an actual place.
And then with the teams especially, but also with
companies and other customers that we have when, when we have
(38:00):
sort of bulk or team orders, we're able to apply the team
logo onto the other side of our mask with the team's permission,
which then signals to the members of the team that this is
company or team issued performance equipment.
This is part of the protocol. It's as important as your helmet
in football. It has our logo on it.
(38:22):
And you you need to use it as part of the team.
That said, so they they are using these the NFLPA just
bought inactivators for all of the athletes traveling overseas
this year which is 7 teams A. Lot of games this year too
coming up, yeah. Exactly.
But on the other side of that equation is a lot of the
coaches, and this includes NFL team coaches, are saying we tell
(38:46):
these guys to sleep until we're blue in the face, but we can't
be in the, you know, in the hotel room with them the night
before the game to, you know, wehave they all obviously have
times they have to go to sleep, but they can't police actual
sleep. And, you know, players are on
(39:06):
their phones and whatever and they're sleeping with another
player sometimes. So it's difficult for everybody,
but they are really trying to implement protocols and sleep
cultures. Well, it's interesting too.
Like I often think coaches and trainers are some of the worst
(39:28):
sleepers too have some of the words like coach.
Coach culture often celebrates, especially NFL coaches, of
staying up game planning all night, sleeping at the office,
sleeping a very tenuous term on a couch or some unideal
situation. So it's interesting that
(39:48):
organizations are investing moreinto sleep, but they should be
investing to the coaches too if they're going to tell the
players that. Coaches also need to be more
mindful of this because a lot ofcoaches have very poor sleep
habits. And just like trainers, lot of
trainers have hugely poor sleep habits.
I know this. I used to run clubs, hire tons
(40:09):
of trainers and our trainers were some of the worst sleep
deprived people in the club which was so crazy to think
about. You have to walk the walk.
I mean your clients, your players notice when you're not
your best too. So totally agree and it's so.
True, right. People notice when you're tired.
(40:29):
I thought, I want to keen on that because I think we try to
put on this facade that no one, they don't see this.
Like it's like, no, you're in a bad mood all the time, like,
like it is. And I think we just don't want
people to see that. But it's so obvious for that.
I always tell my clients becausethey say, Darren, you're always
very even keeled. You're always in a pretty good
(40:49):
mood. It's like because I sleep
regularly very well. I all life is training to me.
Everything in life is training. I approach it all the same way
and and sleep is no different. You have to train to be a great
sleeper. Most people I know have to do
that. Very few people I know are like,
oh man, I just knock out 910 no problem.
And I was like pretty rare people in life.
(41:11):
You know, that's true. That is true.
But it also, if people would just have the right attitude
about it, it can be very simple at the same time.
Yeah. So that's a struggle.
Too, I think the attitude, you know, it's like when someone
tells you, I tried everything, Ijust can't, I just can't sleep.
And I'm like, have you tried everything like?
Well, and also maybe reminding them we were all born knowing
(41:37):
how to sleep. Look at a baby.
Babies sleep because they know how much sleep they need when
they're tired. So we all fundamentally know how
to sleep. We get all stressed out about
it. We get all in our heads about
it. We are in denial.
We're, we're doing all the things we do in life, especially
when you know, if you're a high performer or you're driven in
(42:00):
some way. But at the end of the day, if
you apply some of the disciplinethat you're applying in a gym or
at work to sleep, you'll get results.
Love it. That's awesome.
Well, this has been a pretty enlightening conversation.
I love coming back to sleep and especially with this population
(42:20):
that we're seeing so many peoplework like this.
And as we get into more remote work and different forms of
working, we're going to continueto see this issue pop up.
So thank you both for coming on to talk about this and let
everyone know about an active company and how they can connect
with it. We'll certainly have stuff in
the show show notes about it, but would love to just give some
(42:42):
more information about that. Thank you.
Thank you. We Jill, you want to take that
one? You can go to inactiveco.com.
You can follow us on social media.
We also are free to come speak to any organization or, you
(43:03):
know, event that's happening. We actually are working right
now with the LA Fire Department who want us to come out and talk
about sleep. We go to talk to NFL teams to
talk about sleep. We can tailor us what we call a
sleep briefing for you. We can do it personally.
So yeah, they're, they can get, they can either reach out to us
directly at sleep at inactiveco.com or also DM us on
(43:27):
social media and we'll respond. On your phone.
Thank you both for being on today.
I really appreciate it. And I talked about a topic
that's really important and, andwe all raised our hand for some
things that happened today. You know, we're guilty of some
of this stuff too. I love relatability.
It's so important in life. We're not here telling you we're
(43:48):
perfect about any of this stuff either.
We're try hard like everyone else, but all coming from a
place of wanting people to be them, their best selves and to
leave with this. There's actually tremendous
amounts of research and one research study has over I think
four, 500,000 people over long longitudinally over time shows
that sleeping better actually helps to mitigate a lot of the
(44:11):
symptoms of depression and anxiety.
So just sleeping absolutely feelbetter and your day-to-day daily
life. Thanks Jill and Lori, appreciate
you both. Thank you.
Take care. All right, that's it.
All right, so today's program, again, in this podcast, we
always try to talk about something that's unique, but
it's also pretty relatable and can be used pretty instantly for
our colleagues here. So we have Lori and Jill here.
Thank you so much from the Inactive Company.
Thanks for just giving me some of your time.
I really appreciate it. Oh, no.
Thank you for having us, Darian.We appreciate it.
(00:23):
Great to be here. Well, this is a topic I really
think it'd be interesting talking about working with a
regular shift workers and in ourcase with our audience, working
with clients who are working, who are traveling regularly,
working night shift, all these different things.
But let's dive into a little bitbecause I love operational
definitions of things. It's, it's we often get tripped
(00:46):
up because we actually don't know what things mean often the
time. So would love for one of you to
talk a little bit about I just talked surface about it, but how
do we would we defined a regularirregular shift?
Workers So it's really, it's a really interesting topic because
you know, what we talk about a lot is training yourself to
(01:07):
sleep. And you have, you know, you were
born to sleep in a cycle, your circadian rhythm.
And when you even in the womb was already set to sort of work
when the sun, you know, when thesun goes down and then when the
sun comes up, you're sort of wired to wake up again.
So for a regular shift workers, they have to sort of retrain
(01:28):
their body and their sleep routine in order to shift their
circadian rhythm to make sure that they're optimizing their
sleep. So part of that is getting into
a, you know, a good routine, making sure that you can still
your brain can still start producing that melatonin to make
you fall asleep. So you've got to create the
environment, which is part of a lot of what we talked about on
(01:49):
what our products help you do. And a regular shift worker could
be anybody from what you would traditionally think of like a
first responder, firefighters, police officers, etcetera,
medical professionals that work night shifts and and others that
kind of come to mind typically. But also I think you have to
(02:10):
think about irregular shift workers also as just you and me
because we're busy people, especially if you have a
professional business, you have a family, you are typically
challenged by getting consistent, this consistent
regular ship asleep that Jill was just talking about.
And so you're constantly trying to shift your sleep to maximize
(02:34):
and get enough sleep. But still, I think a lot of us
struggle with, especially if we're traveling, really being
consistent and regular. So in some ways everybody is a
shift worker. That's really interesting.
And Laurie, it makes me think ofand now we have a large remote
workforce and in many ways you could say remote work is a
(02:57):
regular shift work because there's often no start and end
time for a lot of people and it could really be hazardous to
your sleep cycles based off of you just can work anytime you
want. Well, and I'll tell you what,
saying when COVID hit, yeah, when COVID hit, I sort of went
back to my college days and said, I'm just going to do this
(03:18):
tonight, you know, or I'm going to wake up at 4:00 AM, I'll bang
this out, whatever. And that is the worst thing any
of us can do. So I literally had to resist
that urge and retrain myself to stay regular and consistent
based on, you know. To answer, I'm guilty of it for
sure. Yeah, I think we all are guilty
(03:39):
of it. It's it's interesting to come
from a place of talking about something but also knowing it
intimately in many ways. Yeah, to for that.
So what are some things are a regular shift workers are
dealing with in terms of their sleep and their struggles Just
so we also can kind of start looking at the symptomology of
this and understanding what is the struggles.
(04:00):
If a client comes to me and theysay hey, and this happens
regularly, they are traveling every week for work, they're on
a plane, what is the struggle that they're dealing with
primarily or struggles? I mean, really it's like I said,
it's really the struggle is getting into a sleep routine
(04:20):
that will signal your body to start shutting down so that you
can optimize your sleep every day.
And that might change. I mean, we work with a lot of
professional athletes and it changes weekly, sometimes daily
for them when they're in hotels.So really it's, that is the
biggest struggle because everybody has some sort of
challenge, whether it's noise from another room or it's light
(04:42):
coming in from under the window or it is a, you know, my room is
too hot and I'm not really sure what to do about it.
So really being able to sort of say this is what works for me
and this is sort of my routine that I'm going to take with me
wherever I go. I think one of the other things
Darian, in addition to what Jilljust said, which is so true, is
(05:02):
that shift workers don't realizethey don't have a great
awareness of the fat or accountability for the fact that
they're not optimizing their sleep or getting enough sleep.
And fact, there was a Harvard study done of 7000 firefighters,
for example, where almost half of them didn't realize they
(05:23):
weren't getting enough sleep, but they were suffering from
sleep disorders. And athletes tell us all the
time and they're also research has shown that they're guilty of
not really getting it, that they're not getting enough sleep
to that the sleep that their body needs.
So just that awareness is also abig hurdle and an issue.
(05:46):
What's been the disconnect for the lack of awareness you think?
Sleep when you're dead culture, you know, really that fact that
it's a badge of honor to not sleep a lot and be proud of it
and power through the day. And so we've all tricked
ourselves into thinking that we are as good as if we had slept
(06:08):
the required 7 to 9 hours our body needs, but we're not.
And you know, research also shows that when you don't sleep
7 to 9 hours a night, you can't make good decisions.
You don't have a good mood, you your reaction times are way
slower, you're not accurate, youhave accidents, there are
(06:29):
problems, you know, so it doesn't matter who you are.
And some jobs, especially for ship workers are critically,
they, they manage life and deathsituations.
You have to be your best. So I think that it really is
mindset that is the biggest disconnect.
And we've trained ourselves, particularly Americans to, you
(06:50):
know, gosh, you should be grateful if you get 2 weeks of
vacation a year, you should work, work until you're just
about to drop. So it's sleep.
Redefining sleep culture I thinkis the biggest issue.
The other disconnect is people relate being in bed with
(07:11):
sleeping. So they they're like, well, I
was in bed, but I was reading orlooking at my phone or late in
that really you need to shut everything down and shut your
your brain down. So just because you're in bed
doesn't mean you're breathing. And if you're playing video
games or looking at your phone, doom scrolling, talking,
whatever, you're making it that much worse.
You're saying you think you're resting, but you're not
(07:32):
sleeping. Most definitely all great points
and things I talk to my clients about regularly actually and
have someone after this so I'm going to be talking about this
again actually. So it's all very relevant so
let's jump into some strategies here.
I think one of the things peoplelike about the podcast is that
we just get into, hey, what can I do?
(07:54):
So I know this could this is probably going to cover a lot of
things here. But for our regular shift
workers, what are some a few very instant strategies that
they could do to actually start under well understanding their
sleep patterns but also making achange behavioral intervention
to get better sleep for them? Wear a sleep mask when you, when
(08:20):
you go to sleep. No, really, I mean, I think
it's, it's, it's sort of like take the first step, you know,
admit to yourself like I need tostart a sleep routine.
And whether whether or not you're wearing a sleep mask,
it's have the mindset. Call yourself on it.
Set your alarm for no less than 7 hours.
Tell yourself, you know, I'm going to start turning
(08:41):
everything off 30 minutes beforeit's time to sleep and really
start training your brain almosthave Libyan style.
Like when I see my bed, I see mysleep mask.
I put my phone away. Your shoulders start to drop,
your eyes get a little sleepy. I mean, it really does.
Sleep is not magic. It's actually something that you
can train for and perfect and have to do that like you would
(09:03):
train for anything else. You've got to train for it.
And Speaking of shifting the mindsets, we talk about sleep
hygiene in terms of something that people in your world may
relate better to, and that is develop a sleep warm up.
Just like you stretch before youworkout, you need to power down
(09:24):
and do the things that Jill saidand then consider sleep your
sleep workout. It is as important that anything
you do movement wise during whenyou're awake, it's cleansing
your brain, it's regenerating your muscles.
It's really it's it's literally hitting every system in your
body. So changing your mindset around
(09:46):
sleep is productive. That's why we're called the
inactive company, because we really wanted people to
understand that just because you're laying there doesn't mean
your body isn't working just as hard as when you're doing a
workout. I would also say that that in
addition to kind of paying attention to how you power down
at night, think about how good sleep actually starts the minute
(10:10):
you wake up in the morning. And an easy thing to do is to
get morning sunlight in your eyes.
Have your first cup of coffee ortea outside if you can.
If you can't sit by a window and, you know, just sit in the
sun if you can and just get somelight into your eyes.
If it's a cloudy day, you're still getting that light.
(10:31):
That kind of anchors your circadian rhythm and begins to
set you up for a good night of sleep 12 hours later.
About four art I'm going to start getting to different
regular shift workers here. So this is one that's pretty
common, especially with my clients.
And I know a lot of my colleagues there's your, your
weekly business traveler. And I know you mentioned sleep
(10:53):
mask. I have sleep mask.
I, I'm very serious about sleep.So I, I'm all about this, but I
think a lot of my colleagues were just getting into someone
who's traveling every week and they're going to a variety of
different time zones. What are some kind of easier
things or some quick things theycould do to start to better
train themselves for better sleep in in that schedule they
(11:15):
have? Don't be extreme as you try to
change your schedule. Shift in 15 to 30 minute
increments. You know, resist the urge to
arrive at your destination and sleep for six hours.
That's not helpful. So shift slightly and give
(11:35):
yourself the time to catch up. You can bank sleep, You can
sleep more before you leave on atrip, and that's helpful.
You can nap, but don't nap longer than 30, Max 60 minutes.
But really it's about sort of subtly shifting to help your
body transition to a new time zone and schedule.
(11:56):
Not an abrupt here I am, I'm going to sleep half a day and
then I'll wake up refreshed. And take take your sleep routine
with you like it's the whatever you're doing at home.
Also do it on the road because again, it's the signal, it's
behavioral. So it doesn't really matter
(12:16):
where you are or what time is it.
As you start getting into your routine, your body will say,
that's my signal. I got to start relaxing.
Let's talk more about bank banking, sleep.
I don't think a lot of my colleagues probably have heard
of this so much. Let's dive more into that.
And what does the literature sayabout banking sleep?
Because I have to be honest, I haven't heard much about this
(12:37):
myself. Well, we always like to first
say we are not sleep doctors, sowe don't want to talk above our
pay scale. But we do pay attention to the
research, that of primary sourcesources like Harvard Medical
School, the National Institute of Health, etcetera, and to some
very prominent sleep doctors andsleep banking, just like naps is
(12:59):
a real thing. But just like I said, you, you
have to be intentional about it.You have to say I'm going to
leave in 2 days. So tonight I'm going to sleep 30
minutes longer. I'm not going to run myself
ragged for the two days prior toleaving on an overnight flight,
(13:20):
you know, across in the ocean. I'm so you have to kind of just
plan ahead and talk to yourself around.
I'm not going to go, I'm going to go 80%.
I'm not going to go 110% for theday before I have to travel from
Atlanta to London. And then you, you, you bank up a
(13:40):
few extra minutes and we're again, we're not talking about
hours, but you just you, you have a few extra minutes so that
then you can help start manage asubtle shift to the new time
zone while you're there. That makes a lot of sense with
that. And now just to be clear, so
(14:01):
like you said, not hours, I think a lot of people think I'm
just going to sleep a couple hours, add that in.
So we're saying that that's actually probably a negative at
that point versus just doing some minutes for that.
Yeah, if you just think about itthe same way the literature
talks about naps, it's similar. You know, you don't want to take
a three hour nap in the middle of the day when you're home.
(14:23):
It's not helpful. It can be very helpful to take a
twenty, 30-40 minute nap in the middle of the day when you're
home. Same with if you're traveling
and you're trying to shift time zones.
You just can't. It's not you're groggy.
You're not. You're not doing yourself any
favors. I mean, I wish I could tell you
(14:44):
exactly what's happening with your brain and your body, but
it's not helpful. Most definitely.
What about the use of melatonin for clients when they're
traveling regularly? Can we talk a little bit about
that? So melatonin occurs naturally in
(15:05):
your brain and the most effective way to optimize
melatonin is to make sure that you're an environment that has
complete blackout because that is the true signal to your brain
to produce that melatonin and that's actually what makes you
fall asleep. Everybody reacts differently and
it's really funny because when Lori and I started this company,
(15:26):
like I was OD ING on melatonin and I would falling asleep is
not my issue. Staying asleep is my issue.
So I would wake up in the Melanoma, I would actually take
a lot, fall asleep, sleep hard and then wake up and I couldn't
get back to sleep. Everybody reacts differently,
but if you can actually again, train yourself to fall asleep as
naturally as possible with a with a blacked out environment,
(15:49):
you're better off than actually taking over the counter
melatonin. It it is immensely helpful for
some people. Now there are people who don't
produce enough on their own, andthat's kind of where it started
was helping those people fall asleep.
But it it shouldn't be treated as an ongoing sleep aid because
your body does start to metabolize it.
(16:11):
So at some point it won't work for you anymore.
How can I just thought of this when you said that how can
someone find out if they're not producing enough melatonin in
their body? That's a great question.
You'd probably have to be diagnosed.
I'll see if I can cite a study for you.
But I think. I'm thinking about someone who's
(16:32):
if I, if I'm telling someone that at least I'm thinking I'm
like, well, how would I know that?
Like you know that that I think would be pretty interesting to
know. Let me see.
I'm looking at my notes, see if I can find the answer while we
talk about. Sorry, Laura, you're going to
say something. Well, I was just going to say
that it is, you know, taking melatonin externally doesn't
(16:53):
work for everybody, even if you are producing melatonin.
And, you know, I think it's important just here to say you
also don't want to rely on Benadryl or, you know, any other
kind of aid like that that some people take for sleep because
that really is not good for yourbrain in the long term.
(17:17):
It's it's turn your brain completely off.
And there's a lot of research around that.
Melatonin, you know, a lot of people, and I'm mentioning it
because a lot of people think ofmelatonin as being benign.
And that's what we thought aboutBenadryl.
Benadryl was in everything and people were taking it off label
as a sleep aid because we all thought it was not harmful.
(17:41):
And guess what? Turns out it is.
So I think the same with any kind of supplement.
Melatonin is a supplement, It's not regulated.
So just use it cautiously and carefully.
So here's the answer. The symptoms are what you would
think they would be. Difficulty falling asleep,
waking up repeatedly, feeling tired during the day, super
groggy, memory lapses, those types of things.
(18:04):
And your primary care provider can do a blood or urine test to
measure your melatonin levels and then counsel you after that
so it can be tested. I find I find that pretty
interesting because I don't think I've ever had that
conversation with a client that maybe you're not producing
enough melatonin. Yeah, which I think is pretty
unique. It's something I would
definitely have to add into my practice to discuss that when
(18:27):
someone tells me these are the things they're struggling with.
One way, right? One way to do your own test is
perhaps to wear a sleep mask that provides 100% darkness.
Because if you are not getting 100% darkness, and if you listen
to Andrew Huberman, he's, you know, cited all sorts of
research around this very fact, if you don't get absolute 100%
(18:50):
darkness, you can't get your owninternal signal to your brain to
produce melatonin. So even if there is a red light
attached to a screen you know still on at night in your room
with this otherwise dark, that is impacting the production of
your melatonin naturally. Would you think that would be
(19:11):
good to discuss? I never thought about this, but
I think it'd be interesting. Part of a strategy is when you
know for your business travelers, whether they're
booking hotels and places like that themselves or someone at
the company, is that they need to really focus on finding
accommodations or lodging that works for their sleep schedule
and for for the darkness for that.
(19:33):
Because I find when I travel a decent amount, most places that
I stay are nowhere near like my house.
Like I have the full on 100% darkness in my room.
I can't even see my hand in front of my eyes.
Like at night, I need it to be super dark.
But I find that most places don't do that, so it may require
more work for a person to figurethat out, you know?
(19:54):
Which is what why we came to thesleep mask and why we decided
this needed to be re engineered and innovative.
It's 100 year old product that no one ever really considered
for. How can we use it to how can we
build it to achieve complete darkness no matter where you
are, The second factor to producing melatonin and to
(20:17):
inducing sleep is coolness. So.
We were asking why hasn't anyonebuilt kind of a temperature
regulation naturally into a sleep mask?
Because if you can't afford a fancy hotel that has blackout
curtains and nice Matt cooling mattresses and that sort of
thing, you know, a sleep mask isan affordable solution that is
(20:42):
easy to travel with that can accomplish the same thing.
So it's, it's, it's really interesting how we make it
really complicated, which also stresses us out and makes us
sleep less. But if you keep it simple and
you're just consistent and, you know, you find a tool or two
that works for you and you startappreciating the benefits of
(21:05):
sleep and you really internalizehow good sleep is for you.
I think a lot of people would besurprised how sleep comes more
naturally and they'll get more. Yeah, most definitely.
You know what's interesting, I was fine when I talked to
clients that and they, you know,are struggling with their mood
(21:25):
regulation and and emotional regulation.
I. Please.
Jill's like, let me, let me raise the hand here.
And I always tell them I said, and they're like, I don't know
what to do. I, I feel like I, I don't want
to like go off the hook all the time.
And I'm, I'm irritable when I say, you know, actually if you
just slept better or probably get rid of most of that for you,
you would feel more even regularly as a person.
(21:48):
But I think what we as humans do, we often jump to the more
complicated idea or treatment totreat something instead of
mastering the basics. It couldn't possibly make you
sleeping less. Most people don't realize that
sleep isn't just, I mean, your body is working really hard and
you have to be asleep for it to work really hard.
So it strengthens your immune system.
(22:10):
It strengthens your cognitive ability, it improves your
memory. You know, it does all these
things for you. And the other reason that people
don't talk about it so much and the culture that we live in is
that sleep is the only human performance factor that you
cannot replace. You can't cheat it.
You can't fake it. You can't drink a tonic for it.
Take a pill for it. Your body my sleep.
(22:30):
And we we were designed that way.
And so, you know, in our today and I also guilty of buying
everything off of Amazon and Instagram.
You can't buy anything for sleep.
So people will default to, oh, let me try, you know, this
smoothie with, you know something in it that will make
you, it might make you go to sleep, but it's not replacing
your sleep. Right.
(22:52):
And people often using differentaids and that are basically just
sedation for people versus actually having deep sleep, REM
sleep, things of that nature. So how will we approach none of
our business travelers, let's say, and this is pretty regular,
kind of your night shift nurses,your, your shift workers.
(23:13):
Actually, casino workers are great.
I lived in Vegas for a long time.
A lot of people work in casinos overnight and struggling.
They struggle with how do I fit an exercise with this crazy
insane schedule that I have and also how do I get great sleep so
I can have good exercise sessions for that.
How will we approach this? God love them because the the
(23:36):
casino workers in particular arestanding in the most brightly
lit room for, you know, the entire shift.
And that could be as you said and probably is in the evening
worst time ever. And they may try to work out
after their shift, which just raises their cortisol and makes
(23:59):
them even less likely to go to sleep.
So I think what the best probably the best strategies are
to work out earlier pre shift. Make sure that you are doing
kind of the morning basics to set yourself up for an evening
of sleep success like the morning light, but then work out
earlier on the earlier side. Stop drinking caffeine by noon
(24:23):
because the half life of caffeine is 6 hours and you'll
be feeling it later. Even if thinking you need it to
get through the shift. Try without it and see what
happens. I bet you'll manage and I think
probably lacking out when you get home, you know, the sleep
(24:43):
mask. Again, we keep harping on this
not because we're a sleep mask company, but because it just
makes so much sense. Literally, we have clients,
athletes who are traveling now overseas to go to football
games, playing at night, play inthe afternoon, all different
times of day, you know, all overthe US, even different time
(25:04):
frames. And they're recognizing that
just the simple visual cue of I'm going to put on this mask
and I'm going to black out the world.
If you're coming off from your casino shift and all that light
and you suddenly achieve 100% blackout by putting on this, we
(25:29):
call it a performance tool, you will get better sleep.
I mean, I think it really is just shifting to time to go to
sleep. When we say blackout, we mean
darkness. We don't mean lose your mind,
no. Exactly.
Just to be clear. For your life, I want to be
clear here. Like, you're just getting
blackout. Like, wow, you say someone's
(25:49):
going. To change it at the wrong time,
that's fine. Over like what is not?
What? Here like not ten shots.
Yeah, 10 shots blackout. You're good.
No, no. Then you'll read your sleep mask
in the morning when you have a hangover.
Your father. Speaking of it.
Yeah, right. So Speaking of sleep masks, you
(26:11):
mentioned like the the design ofthe sleep.
Now all sleep masks are not created equal in this.
I tried ton of them. And this is I think a really
good moment here in this podcastto teach what is a in a really
effective sleep mask to use for regular shift folks or if you're
just traveling somewhere for summer vacation, whatever.
(26:32):
And because that's what's alwaysa struggle.
I have that for myself and otherclients where you're like, oh,
I'm just going somewhere four orfive hours away.
And that first night of sleep, just so terrible when you get to
the hotel or wherever. Well, the sleep mask that we
designed, Lori really designed it as we have a patent on ours
and it's because we incorporatedall of the features and benefits
(26:56):
that address the needs of your body to help you fall asleep
like 100% darkness. It is customizable to your face
and head size so that you can achieve that.
You push it around your Lori, you can model, you can actually
push it on your nose and eyebrow.
We do have a face change material that helps with
thermoregulation, so it actuallyabsorbs the heat off your face,
(27:19):
leaving your face feeling coolerbecause your body temperature
rises as your circadian rhythm starts to wind down and that's
one of the things that makes youwake up.
So if you can stay cooler a little longer, you'll sleep a
little longer. We actually tested this with a
third party testing company. You can sleep up to 30 minutes
longer. Comfort is also key.
So hopefully I admit you can find a mouse with ours doesn't
(27:41):
have any hardware. There are others out there.
We actually have a self stretching elastic strap so that
a, you can place it on your headwhere you want, but also if it's
a little tight, you can pull it and it self adjusts.
That's super key and it's ergonomically designed.
It's super light. You can actually open your eyes
completely underneath. And if you have super long
(28:02):
eyelashes or falsies, they won'tbump the inside of the mask
because we designed it with likethis concave pocket.
So any and all of the all of those working together is why we
were able to get a patent on ours.
But those are the things that wewould recommend when you're
looking for a sleep mask. Everybody's face shape is
(28:23):
different. Your features are different
sizes and shapes. And so you know to have one mask
that you can actually mold to your personal features and fits
your head and allows you to sleep on your back, on your
side, on your stomach, however you want to without any kind of
bumps or big Velcro humps or anything is what we were going
(28:45):
for. And you know, we even thought a
lot of people were men and womenhave braids and ponies.
So we wanted the strap to accommodate the wearer to, to
put any a pair through the middle of the strap or to help
them position the mask on their head and face the way it's
comfortable for them. So we, you know, we were hoping
(29:05):
to give everybody a lot of options to achieve the 100%
darkness and to also be comfortable when they slept.
So what are some other tools in the toolkit from an act of that
help people to sleep better, especially, again keeping in
mind for this crew, especially our regular shift workers, what
(29:26):
are some things they can add to their toolkit to help them with
this? We have what we call the Sleep 7
Playbook that's actually on our website and you can get to it
pretty easy and it's 7 steps. It's based on cognitive
behavioral insomnia therapy and it's really, you know, there's
seven steps to everything, right?
So in steps of being successful,7 steps to better habits, and we
(29:47):
adapted that to seven steps to better sleep.
And we call it the Sleep 7 Playbook, which incorporates a
lot of the things that we talkedabout, you know, make sure that
you are setting your alarm for no no earlier than 7 to 9 hours.
Make sure that your room temperature is super cool.
Make sure that your sleeping space is just that it's a safe
(30:10):
place to go to sleep and you're not working also guilty, but
you're not working, reading, eating in the space that you're
supposed to be sleeping. So they're really good.
Seven steps to helping you cue your brain again.
So that you say I'm going to start getting into this, I'm
automatically going to cue my body that it's time to sleep,
(30:30):
and then your body starts to work for you.
We can link that in your podcast.
That's great notes if you want to Darian because it is science
backed and the CBTI that Jill was just talking about it.
Research has shown that it is the most effective intervention
for insomnia, and so we really did base it on science, and it
(30:55):
addresses everything from habit to sleep culture, you know,
teaming up and supporting other people.
Community Communities. Affirmations, utilizations, all
of it. So it's all condensed into 7
easy steps that I think that your audience could help to
share with ship workers and others.
We were just talking with firefighters who said that they
(31:19):
just need to wrap their heads around getting everybody
comfortable with it's time to goto sleep, even if it's in the
daytime because most of their calls are at night.
You know, they all report to a their first shift earlier in the
evening, but they don't go to bed necessarily early.
So they're working to change that together, not just, you
(31:42):
know, one off one person at a time, but but doing it as a
whole group. That makes a lot of sense.
I was thinking too a little bit about Jill.
You mentioned the setting your alarm clock for the 7 to 9
hours. This is not a topic I think I've
discussed when I've talked aboutsleep in the past.
Is there? Do we think that people don't do
(32:04):
that regularly? Why?
Why would people set it for lessthan that?
Let's talk about that. I think they, they just say, oh,
I, you know, I haven't gone to sleep yet and all of a sudden
it's midnight and I have to be up at six, you know, so go to
bed at 10 and set it for still set it for 6:00.
And you're, you know, you're getting your 7 to 9 hours or,
you know, one when you start to get into a habit and a sleep
(32:27):
warm up. And I'm honestly speaking from
personal experience here, Lori will vouch I was a horrible
sleeper. You know, sleep also be get
sleep. Doctors will tell you that.
So the more you can sleep, the more you will sleep if you allow
your body to. And I went from probably 4 1/2,
five hours tonight to 6 1/2 or 7hours a night just because I
(32:49):
didn't get up at 5:30 or 6 or, you know, I started backing
things up and I, you know, you can, you can, I also started
getting deeper REM sleep. And, you know, in the beginning
I was like getting really short cycles and waking up all the
time. But then I was like, oh, it's
not time to wake up that. So I started, you know, training
myself and I just didn't get outof bed.
(33:10):
The 7 to 9 hours is for a reason, and that is it gives
your body enough time to go through the required 4 to 5
R.E.M. Cycles that really do all the
work in your body while you're sleeping.
Yeah, I, you know, that kind of sleep opportunity time, I just
don't think enough people give themselves enough of that and
(33:32):
when I talk to clients about their sleep, sometimes I'm
actually not sure if they're telling me the truth about their
sleep We're. All in kind of like.
Right. It's kind of like the whole
term, like people often overestimate how much is the
exercise and underestimate how much they eat and I think add
sleep to this, that people oftenoverestimate how much they're
sleeping. There aren't only.
(33:54):
Your sleep. We talk about that, too.
Exactly because because I, I don't think people are asleep
because they'll say, OK, this is, these are the parameters.
Here's our training program for sleep.
But then it's always, they were doomed scrolling, they were on
their phone, and then all the sudden the time gets away and
then that opportunity. So I think that's another
important part of the conversation is just honesty
(34:16):
about your sleep habits, you know?
I think my cue was I was gettingsick a lot.
I actually ended up with pneumonia.
I was in the hospital like called L'Oreal and and that was
my biggest wake up moment. Since then, it's been 2 years.
I haven't had a cold. I haven't been sick at all since
I started. Like I was like, it's, it's got
to be sleep because you know, I was trying to do everything
(34:38):
else, right. Are we going to say something in
addition to that? Just I think the people don't
realize, they don't think peoplenotice that they look tired or
that they're not as sharp as they usually are, but people
notice, they noted. And.
So I think you have, if you haveclients who come in one day and
(34:59):
look tired, I think that you're doing them a favor by saying you
look tired. How did you sleep last night?
What time did you go to bed? You know, that doesn't have to
take up your whole session, but it could be an important
reminder that I notice, I see you and you can you're, you're
better you, you know, you can dobetter and be better and be
healthier. Yeah, it's just such a
(35:22):
interesting conversation as I experienced this a lot with
clients and and maybe this is a little different thing, but I
think similar. And again, I think not talked
about is, you know, when I askedsomebody get with them, hey, how
are you feeling today? And if their answer is
consistently just OK, like it's never good or it's just I'm
like, this is probably a sleep issue here.
(35:45):
I mean, how can your day always be just OK all the time?
Like and what? And so it's really talking to
them like, hey, your performance, sleep is the
foundation of this performance and among amongst a lot of other
things. But I really think it's a
massive cure off for most emotional issues that happen
with people. They're very uneven with poor
(36:06):
sleep. I'm like this.
Is hands up episodes Raise your hand up this zoo.
There have been studies that have shown just addressing the
actual performance, not the mood, but that if two teams, all
things being equal, play a game,the team that slept better the
(36:27):
night before will win every time, hands down.
So it's so interesting to see that on another day, if some,
you know, a different team sleptbetter, then people will play
better. I mean, and so we're apply that
across the board to everything we've been talking about, your
mood, your creativity, your decision making, your accuracy,
(36:51):
your ability to be injury free in any kind of workout or
anything that you do it. It really is across the board
the foundational factor, as you said Darien, that can really
help keep you on the better. Side of the equation, are we
seeing teams like actually focuson this?
(37:11):
I mean, as much as I mean, obviously if as athlete teams
are actually traveling with eachother, they're going to
different places or at differenthotels and stuff, are the actual
coaches and organizations saying, hey, this is a
performance issue and we're going to implement a protocol
for this? Are we seeing more of that?
Yes, the we work with a lot of the NFL teams, they consider our
(37:36):
sleep mask to be part of the performance equipment.
In fact, so we have the a travelcase that not only keeps the
mask, you know, bacteria and dust free and moisture
resistant, but also kind of looks cool.
But it gives the sleep mask an actual place.
And then with the teams especially, but also with
companies and other customers that we have when, when we have
(38:00):
sort of bulk or team orders, we're able to apply the team
logo onto the other side of our mask with the team's permission,
which then signals to the members of the team that this is
company or team issued performance equipment.
This is part of the protocol. It's as important as your helmet
in football. It has our logo on it.
(38:22):
And you you need to use it as part of the team.
That said, so they they are using these the NFLPA just
bought inactivators for all of the athletes traveling overseas
this year which is 7 teams A. Lot of games this year too
coming up, yeah. Exactly.
But on the other side of that equation is a lot of the
coaches, and this includes NFL team coaches, are saying we tell
(38:46):
these guys to sleep until we're blue in the face, but we can't
be in the, you know, in the hotel room with them the night
before the game to, you know, wehave they all obviously have
times they have to go to sleep, but they can't police actual
sleep. And, you know, players are on
(39:06):
their phones and whatever and they're sleeping with another
player sometimes. So it's difficult for everybody,
but they are really trying to implement protocols and sleep
cultures. Well, it's interesting too.
Like I often think coaches and trainers are some of the worst
(39:28):
sleepers too have some of the words like coach.
Coach culture often celebrates, especially NFL coaches, of
staying up game planning all night, sleeping at the office,
sleeping a very tenuous term on a couch or some unideal
situation. So it's interesting that
(39:48):
organizations are investing moreinto sleep, but they should be
investing to the coaches too if they're going to tell the
players that. Coaches also need to be more
mindful of this because a lot ofcoaches have very poor sleep
habits. And just like trainers, lot of
trainers have hugely poor sleep habits.
I know this. I used to run clubs, hire tons
(40:09):
of trainers and our trainers were some of the worst sleep
deprived people in the club which was so crazy to think
about. You have to walk the walk.
I mean your clients, your players notice when you're not
your best too. So totally agree and it's so.
True, right. People notice when you're tired.
(40:29):
I thought, I want to keen on that because I think we try to
put on this facade that no one, they don't see this.
Like it's like, no, you're in a bad mood all the time, like,
like it is. And I think we just don't want
people to see that. But it's so obvious for that.
I always tell my clients becausethey say, Darren, you're always
very even keeled. You're always in a pretty good
(40:49):
mood. It's like because I sleep
regularly very well. I all life is training to me.
Everything in life is training. I approach it all the same way
and and sleep is no different. You have to train to be a great
sleeper. Most people I know have to do
that. Very few people I know are like,
oh man, I just knock out 910 no problem.
And I was like pretty rare people in life.
(41:11):
You know, that's true. That is true.
But it also, if people would just have the right attitude
about it, it can be very simple at the same time.
Yeah. So that's a struggle.
Too, I think the attitude, you know, it's like when someone
tells you, I tried everything, Ijust can't, I just can't sleep.
And I'm like, have you tried everything like?
Well, and also maybe reminding them we were all born knowing
(41:37):
how to sleep. Look at a baby.
Babies sleep because they know how much sleep they need when
they're tired. So we all fundamentally know how
to sleep. We get all stressed out about
it. We get all in our heads about
it. We are in denial.
We're, we're doing all the things we do in life, especially
when you know, if you're a high performer or you're driven in
(42:00):
some way. But at the end of the day, if
you apply some of the disciplinethat you're applying in a gym or
at work to sleep, you'll get results.
Love it. That's awesome.
Well, this has been a pretty enlightening conversation.
I love coming back to sleep and especially with this population
(42:20):
that we're seeing so many peoplework like this.
And as we get into more remote work and different forms of
working, we're going to continueto see this issue pop up.
So thank you both for coming on to talk about this and let
everyone know about an active company and how they can connect
with it. We'll certainly have stuff in
the show show notes about it, but would love to just give some
(42:42):
more information about that. Thank you.
Thank you. We Jill, you want to take that
one? You can go to inactiveco.com.
You can follow us on social media.
We also are free to come speak to any organization or, you
(43:03):
know, event that's happening. We actually are working right
now with the LA Fire Department who want us to come out and talk
about sleep. We go to talk to NFL teams to
talk about sleep. We can tailor us what we call a
sleep briefing for you. We can do it personally.
So yeah, they're, they can get, they can either reach out to us
directly at sleep at inactiveco.com or also DM us on
(43:27):
social media and we'll respond. On your phone.
Thank you both for being on today.
I really appreciate it. And I talked about a topic
that's really important and, andwe all raised our hand for some
things that happened today. You know, we're guilty of some
of this stuff too. I love relatability.
It's so important in life. We're not here telling you we're
(43:48):
perfect about any of this stuff either.
We're try hard like everyone else, but all coming from a
place of wanting people to be them, their best selves and to
leave with this. There's actually tremendous
amounts of research and one research study has over I think
four, 500,000 people over long longitudinally over time shows
that sleeping better actually helps to mitigate a lot of the
(44:11):
symptoms of depression and anxiety.
So just sleeping absolutely feelbetter and your day-to-day daily
life. Thanks Jill and Lori, appreciate
you both. Thank you.
Take care. All right, that's it.
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