01. The Accidental Entrepreneur

In our premiere episode for the Fearless Road Podcast, we interview Jen Salerno, 22 yr veteran of the hospitality and events industry. In this episode she shares her insights and courage allowing us inside the thoughts and experiences that have shaped her career as an industry expert, a thought leader and an entrepreneur.

Episode Transcript

Michael Devous (00:02):
Okay, hey, just out walking on the property
trying to get some fresh air andsome ideas in my head, but I
wanted to say this is thepremiere episode of the Fearless
Road podcast, very excitedabout having Jen Solerno from
JTS Connect on the show as myfirst guest.
A 20-year veteran of the eventsand hospitality industry,

(00:24):
specializing in bringingtogether audiences and team
members and connecting themthrough ideas that shape our
industry.
Why I love this particularepisode is Jen shares with us
how she redefines courage,especially in this post, during
COVID and post COVID time.
She shares with us what it'slike to lean into, what feels

(00:48):
hard, recognizing the power ofvulnerability and the moment she
discovered she was anaccidental entrepreneur.
So I think it's going to be agreat episode.
I think you're going to learn alot.
Hopefully you get a bit of anunderstanding of what the show's
like and, yeah, you're comingon the journey.
So welcome to the Fearless Roadpremiere episode, jen Solerno.

(01:11):
Hey, we'll see you there.
Stay fearless.
Bye, hi everybody and welcometo the Fearless Road podcast.

(01:32):
I am here in studio with theamazing Jen Solerno.
She is the event professionalwho speaks to and represents
events, specifically talkingabout moderators, talking about
presentation, talking aboutperformance and coaching event
professionals around the globeand with the organization PCMA.

(01:54):
Is that correct?

Jen Salerno (01:57):
Actually, I do work with PCMA.
I partner with them.
I, though, I have my owncompany, which is JTS Connect.
That's right, that's right andhow are?

Michael Devous (02:06):
we connecting.
We're connecting people Rightnow.
Riverside Studios in New Mexicoand you're in Chicago right.

Jen Salerno (02:15):
I am in Chicago.
So I love being here in Chicago, just because, well, obviously
it's a wonderful city I'm sureyou've been, yes, I have Good
good but also it's just such ahub for event professionals in
general.
Right, PCMA, like you mentioned, is headquartered here.
I part of the Greater Midwestchapter which has such a robust

(02:37):
membership base here in Chicagoand the surrounding areas.
So, yep, I love being here.

Michael Devous (02:42):
Awesome.
Well, I love Chicago,especially the riverboat tour.
I know that that's probably amassive cliche, but getting to
see the city from the backsideand the river, where things
originally the river was behindeverything was the back of
buildings was where I supposethey were dumping back in the
day Terrible Americanexperiences.

(03:03):
But what's really cool about itis you get to see sort of an
underbelly of the city in a veryunique perspective.
It's just a very cool river andit's super neat that it comes
through the middle of thesebuildings and underneath stuff
and that's I think that's cool.
I love Chicago.

Jen Salerno (03:22):
It's so funny that she just brought that up.
I was just talking with myhusband about my desire to do
one of those tours.
I'm like let's do it thisweekend.
It's been forever.
I used to be a concierge that'show I started in the event
industry, actually and so Idon't think I've done a tour
since then, when I was learningabout the city.
So that was a good 25 years ago.

Michael Devous (03:44):
Nice Well, welcome to the Fearless Road
podcast.
Jen and I connected viaLinkedIn, but mainly through
events and most recently Ibelieve it was the leadership
event for the LeadershipConference for PCMA.
I got to host a game show whichwas very corny and very funny

(04:07):
but it was very entertaining toget people to connect and to
engage and stuff for the event,which was a lot of fun and I
really enjoyed being able to dothat.
I've had a lot of respect forJen for, I think, about two
years Now, I want to say,monitoring and watching her
career and what she does in theevent industry.
I, of course, come from theevents industry.

(04:28):
I spent about 15 to 20 years ofmy life either producing,
managing, coordinating, creatingevents for people.
I understand intimately what ittakes to put on a successful
event.
You have to be a kind ofparticular individual to do this
business, to be in thisindustry, so give our audience.

(04:50):
Yeah, exactly, I mean, there's alittle type A, there's a little
bit of, you know, overachieving.
I think you know meticulous.
So tell the audience, just forthose of us who may or may not
be familiar with your career andwho you are.
Give us a little bit ofbackground, both professionally
and personally, so we can get toknow you.

Jen Salerno (05:10):
Oh well, thank you.
It's always a fun question.
They have tried to figure outhow, where to go with the origin
story, right?
But so so I mentioned that Ithat I did start my career in
the events and hospitalityindustry really, and I started
with hospitality, like I said,as a concierge.
So right out of college Istarted working at the Palmer

(05:33):
House Hilton as a concierge,which I had no clue what I was
doing, right, I was.
How many of us had a clue?

Michael Devous (05:41):
when we first started out, Like none of us.

Jen Salerno (05:42):
Well, I guess right , who knows anything about their
first day?

Michael Devous (05:46):
I love that about do you know what I mean
when we're younger and we'resort of blissfully ignorant
about life and we just go yeah,I'm going to go do that and you
just go and do it.
So you know.

Jen Salerno (05:55):
Well, I mean, you know, I think you just hit on
something that we'll have totalk about later as we continue
on in this episode right, nope,I'll take my note.
Pin that for later.
The whole just just do it right.
But yeah, but yeah.
So it was.
It was such a cool experienceto to work in especially that

(06:15):
property, the Palmer House.
It's just such a old, historic,iconic property.
So what better place to getstarted in my hospitality and
events career?
So after about a year and ahalf of being at Concierge I
realized that wow, there's acareer to be had here and I I
seized that opportunity.
So I worked my way up throughthe convention services

(06:37):
department and eventually movedon to what was at the time
called the Chicago Conventionand Tourism Bureau.
Now it's to Chicago, so, butthe Chicago CBB works there for
a few years and learned a wholedifferent perspective of the
hospitality and events industry.
You know McCormick Place andall of the special event venues.
It was such a cool experienceto do that.

(06:59):
And then I went back to hotelsfor a while because I realized
that I missed the camaraderie ofhotels and I needed to learn
sales.
That's something that I had notdone yet.
And I'll talk about fear.
I still have a fear of sales.
It's a hard, hard gig.

Michael Devous (07:20):
Sales is not.
I do not envy salespeople atall.
I think I was very blessed inmy life to fall into certain
types of career paths Didn'trequire there were sales
components to to it, of course,but yeah, always.
I think that's true in a lot ofways for a lot of different

(07:41):
career and industries.
But when I fell into it, itjust was natural for me to pitch
what I was doing, how I wasdoing it, to the people who
wanted to hear about it and thenbuy in.
So I lucked out, I think, inthat way, because it was just
easy for me to do, you know,because I loved what I was doing
, and I think that that reallyresonates with people.
If you're coming from a placeof authenticity authenticity

(08:04):
about your joy of what you'reworking on and what you're doing
for them then a sale becomesnot a sale but more of a
relationship opportunity.
I suppose.

Jen Salerno (08:13):
Oh, totally agree, and I think that's really the
key for those of us who maybedon't have that typical sales
persona, salesperson persona,which I just don't and didn't.
I'll never forget my directorat the time having the whole
sales team take one of thosepersonality tests yes, you know,
and just to see like you know,like what's the.

(08:34):
I just did one last, this pastweek.

Michael Devous (08:36):
Oh really, oh funny.
I'm starting to see if mypersonality's changed.
I'm just like haven't I grown?
Haven't I adapted, haven't Ibecome somebody new?
And my personality was likenope, you are still type this,
you're still you know, isn'tthat?

Jen Salerno (08:50):
interesting.

Michael Devous (08:51):
Well.

Jen Salerno (08:51):
I mean, we can definitely grow, I think, in
ways that maybe don't change ourcore belief system or the
things that like drive us tomotivate us Don't really make us
who we are?
Yeah, right.
So the challenge for me was youknow, all the sales people on
the team have, like this thing,this graph that looks like this
and mine looks like this, andhe's just like why are you doing
this?
And like, yeah, I don't know,maybe this is not the right

(09:13):
career path.

Michael Devous (09:14):
This might be an indicator that you're on the
road Right.

Jen Salerno (09:19):
Like the relationship piece, like you
said, like okay, like that's theway to sell.
I suppose if you are a personlike me or maybe like you, who
just doesn't have that likesuper competitive edge, like
always, like close business,close business, like I, just
that's just not me.
But if I love my product and Ilove and I believe in what I'm
doing, I'll talk to you all daylong and just convince you

(09:41):
that's true.

Michael Devous (09:41):
You can't shut me up.
Work with me.
If you get me started onsomething I'm passionate about,
there's no stopping it.

Jen Salerno (09:46):
Don't you love when you, when you're talking about
something and you feel that,that the passion come out and
just the words spill out of you.

Michael Devous (09:54):
You're in the flow, as they say.

Jen Salerno (09:56):
I love the flow.
I love the flow.

Michael Devous (09:59):
Well before we flow into more concepts and
ideas and questions about fear.
So give us a little backgroundon your personal life.
You've shared some of yourprofessional experiences, so
take us through, gentlemen, thehuman.
Is there a story there or someinteresting or OG, og stories
that got you a into the whereyou are today?

(10:22):
Specifically be some of thebiggest challenges you face as a
human being on this planet?
And I know that's probably youcan't do it in five minutes or
less.
So you know what.
I just gave you a big, massivequestion.

Jen Salerno (10:34):
So I can do this, michael, I know I can't and I
have to give you credit, I'veactually never been asked that
question before.
You know, there's always thecareer question how did you get
to where you are today and yourcareer trajectory?
But you know, as far as the howdoes the personal piece play
into it?
That's a that's a really goodquestion.
But so I mean, long story short.
I I live here, like it's in theChicagoland area.

(10:56):
I've been married for almost 20years and have two kids.
Thank you, yeah.

Michael Devous (11:04):
Relationships, relationships.
If you can maintain a solidrelationship with your partner
for that long, you've got somefoundation.
You've got some skills andfoundation and character traits
that probably lend it reallywell to your professional career
, I think, in buildingrelationships.
I think that's important.

Jen Salerno (11:21):
Look at you connecting dots.
I love that.
Well you know, as, as amoderator, you know that that's
I can recognize that that is amajor skill.
So I think you've got that.
But you're right though you are, you're hitting it on the head,
I guess.
And that's just the whole pieceof of building lasting
relationships, which is socrucial and critical in our

(11:43):
industry knowing how to partnerwhen to when to admit that
you're wrong, when to learn,when to you know all of those
different skills and and thediscomfort also that comes with
that kind of thing, and the nicething about having a partner
for so long is that you can workon those things and, you know,

(12:05):
just eventually learn how tolean into what feels hard and
realize that you can overcome it.

Michael Devous (12:11):
Which that comes from.
It just struck me when you saidit because you can work on
these things with the partner.
That comes from commitment.
This is something I feel likein terms of business, business
partnerships, relationships thatwe build with other companies,
clients and stuff.
What kind of commitment do wemake to them and do they make to

(12:35):
us where we can actuallyrealize a mutually beneficial
relationship that can be workedon?
Not everything is going to gogreat, Not everything is going
to be perfect, but are we awareof the development of that
commitment in a relationshipthat says you know what I'm
going to be in this and stickwith you because I believe in
what you're doing and how you doit, but we're engaged enough

(12:56):
that we can talk about the areaswhere we need improvement, make
mistakes Things aren't workingout quite as well and give you
that chance to actually makethose improvements for the
client and make the changesnecessary to keep the
relationship positive, ongoingand productive?

Jen Salerno (13:11):
You're so right and , as you were saying, all that I
was thinking about and thinkthis is something that's true in
it's definitely true in myrelationship with my husband,
but then also true in businesspartnerships as well and the
fact that it is going to changeand evolve over time and you
always have the choice to growtogether or to grow apart, and

(13:35):
so I think the key is being ableto kind of roll with the
punches and realize that thereare times that maybe one person
needs to be supported more, like, for example, I'll just say
that one professional aspectthat I didn't hit on was that
the seven years prior to thepandemic, I was with a company

(13:57):
called On Peak, which is ahousing bureau, and that is
where I really had most of mycareer, growth and development.
I became a director there, so itwas a really great experience
and I had a nice salary.
I had a nice, healthy salaryand my husband is self-employed

(14:17):
and he has been self-employedfor many years now, and so I was
the one who had this like supersolid salary, the insurance,
all that stuff.
Then the pandemic happens andthat totally shifted.
I lost that job All of a sudden, me who is the breadwinner,

(14:38):
with a solid, secure position.
I couldn't bring that to myfamily anymore.
That was off the table.
And then he still self-employedand has a successful job and
company, but still it was just ashift right when he had to step
into this role and I had tostep more into this role of

(14:59):
being more around the house andsupporting here.
And, frankly, I'm stilllearning how to deal with that
shift in our relationshipstructure Because it's really
different.
It's really different.
I guess my point is that thatcan happen in business
partnerships too, and justcompanies that work together and

(15:21):
weather the changes that we'veseen over the last few years,
and it's just going to be amatter of can business partners
or vendors or suppliers growtogether, or maybe it's
sometimes it's time to just cutties.

Michael Devous (15:38):
Part ways, yeah, speaking of which, you're
talking here specifically aboutyour journey as an entrepreneur
a female entrepreneur in America, which is a little different
than an entrepreneur in othercountries, as I'm learning that
the way that they do businessand how they see business and
relationships it's verydifferent.

(15:58):
Americans view it veryaggressively, but also
tactically, and, of course,there's so many different shows
and so many different programsand so much content built around
entrepreneurs.
So do you have a personalphilosophy about
entrepreneurship, your journeyas an entrepreneur?

Jen Salerno (16:21):
A personal philosophy, which is I still
don't know if I still don't knowif I'm cut out for it.

Michael Devous (16:27):
No, I am.
Well, it could be.
It could be in developmentright.

Jen Salerno (16:30):
It is in development.
I mean, I never, ever, wantedto be an entrepreneur.
It was just was not part of mydesire.
Like I mentioned being atUnpeak, the company that I was
at prior to this whole new timeof life, I probably would have

(16:51):
retired there.
To be honest, I was very, veryhappy there with what I was
doing.
I mean, did I have a littlelike nagging feeling that was
like, yeah, you have a fewlittle dreams there, you know,
and maybe I guess I just didn'trealize that that maybe was a
little entrepreneurial bug.

Michael Devous (17:14):
So it's so.
You're kind of like theaccidental entrepreneur.
Oh my gosh, totally Like, yes,accidental and COVID pushed me
into it as well when I realizedthat the skill sets I'd built
over my entire life, therelationships I had built, the
different career paths and jobsand things I had had done
actually suited me very well tobe an entrepreneur.

(17:34):
And while I had the bug and Ihad the same thing, you're like,
you know, it'd be kind of coolif I could just you know X, y
and Z, and wouldn't it be niceto have my own business.
And then the other thoughtsflood in.
Oh my God, I have to manageeverything and I'm going to have
, you know, like, how am I goingto build revenue?
And all the other questionsthat could come in.
You know, when you're, whenyou're trying to step into the
arena of entrepreneurship, andthen suddenly you find yourself

(17:57):
doing it like you're alreadythere and and then you're
looking around, going oh, that'show these things take place.

Jen Salerno (18:04):
Well, you know you're so right and the other
thing that you realize and thenonce you really start consuming
that multitude ofentrepreneurial content that you
mentioned is out there becauseyou're right, there is no
shortage you start reallylistening to how other
entrepreneurs got started orother people I mean even people
that are close industrycolleagues and you were like, oh

(18:27):
, like everyone's literally justtrying to figure it out day by
day.
Like okay, sure there's somepeople who have figured it out.
You know many, many, many stepsahead of where I am, or maybe
where you are, but he justrealized that no one is born
knowing this knowledge.
We are like no, just trying tofigure it out.

Michael Devous (18:47):
We have.
Our audience has built up ofentrepreneurs, subject matter
experts and business leaders andexecutive leaders and things
like that, so they are thirsty,always thirsty, for additional
knowledge and experiences in theentrepreneurial, on the
entrepreneurial journey.
Speaking of which, on ourjourney here at the Fearless Red

(19:07):
, we talk about fear.
So we're going to get into fearwith Jen Slerno and we will be
right back.
Okay, and we are back with JenSlerno on the Fearless Red
podcast.
Don't mind me while I hiccupand mess up my speaking.
That's cool.
We were just talking about thecareer path with entrepreneurs,

(19:29):
the philosophy ofentrepreneurship, and now we're
going to dig a little deeperinto fear.
Obviously, that's what wetalked about here on the
Fearless Road the valleys, notpeaks.
We talk about the journey toget to success and what that
looks like, and today we aregoing to be getting a little
deep dive with Jen Slerno on herjourney with fear.
So talk to us a little bit.

(19:49):
Do you have an OG, because youmentioned an origin story
earlier Do you have an OG storyabout fear?

Jen Salerno (20:00):
Oh, I'm going to go back, yes, and I would say I
was thinking about this.
As far as my, my, myrelationship and journey with
fear and the different ways thatI have probably not really
acknowledged that it wassomething, that that's what it

(20:20):
was.

Michael Devous (20:21):
But I mean, yes, I understand that statement
right there, because sometimesyou didn't realize that it was
fear you were dealing with Someof the skill sets that we're
raised with.
Nurture versus nature, familyand our surroundings provides us
with a filter and a perspectivethat doesn't always see fear

(20:41):
for what it is.

Jen Salerno (20:43):
Yes, I would agree, and you know not to not to
avoid the question, I'll go backto what I was going to say.
I just want to add that I wasthinking about the fact that
sometimes this fear that keepsshowing up throughout life is
like well, why, like what is thefear?

(21:06):
And like I feel like I almoststill can't even answer that
question exactly, like whatexactly is the purpose of this
fear?
Why is it coming?

Michael Devous (21:17):
But that's what this, that's what this show is
about.
It is to ask that question why?
Why do you keep popping up, whyare you always here, why do you
keep running me down, why youchallenge me every single time I
turn a corner and try to dosomething, boom, there's that
nagging fear, or that questionof worthiness, or that you know
you're attempting to besomething that you're not.

(21:38):
And and yeah, I'm asking thatsame question, which is what's
the purpose of it If we don't,if we don't lean into it and ask
what the purpose is?
Are we running from it?
Are we avoiding it?
Are we not using it correctly?
And I think we can find a wayto make it a better tool in our
lives.
And so, yeah, what's the OG?
Tell me the story.

Jen Salerno (21:58):
So I was thinking about when I was working at the
Palmer House and at the time Iwas in the convention services
department and this actually hasnothing to do with with work,
to be honest but I was thinkingabout something where I realized
that, you know, sometimes youjust like have a fear, or or

(22:22):
maybe even the fear just likedisappears and there's some
other kind of overpowering,something that takes over.
But I had just moved into acondo I'm actually had purchased
a condo and I was in my mid 20sand it was a brand new gut
rehab situation and so they weretrying to turn over.

(22:42):
You know, the former, likepeople who are developing it and
made it into now they're likeokay, now we need a new board
and everything.
Like something inside my body Ithink I was 25 at the time was
just like you have to bepresident, you have to be
president of the association,like, like it is going to fall

(23:04):
to you.
It's not something I wanted todo, something I was terrified to
do, but it was something thatwas like you, this is on you,
and I don't know what made methink that.

Michael Devous (23:14):
It just sounds like you were called to it, just
internally called to the taskfor the challenge.

Jen Salerno (23:20):
Kind of yeah, and but like this is not to say that
there wasn't like fearassociated with that and like
every time we step into somekind of leadership role and I
had I had a boss of mine pointout to me you know, he's the gen
, you are a leader.
And I'm like, what are youtalking about?
Like I don't see myself thatway at all, right, not, I'm

(23:43):
scared to do this, I'm scared todo that.
And he's just like, yeah,except that you know, you, you
have a desire to like move upand grow in this department.
You did this, you're doing that.
And then I thought to myself Iwas captain of truly Eagan High
School, and then the whole thingwith the president of the condo
association or whatever.

(24:04):
And it's just kind of funny tothink about all those different
times where something seemsreally scary to do but then yet
it's just like a total, likedesire to just do it anyway, to
kind of push through that fear.
So maybe the OG fear story isthe fact that there are times

(24:25):
when you're really really calledto do something.
You just stare that fear in theface and say, like move out of
the way, because I, this issomething that has to be done,
and I- Jane, did you justdescribe courage?
I guess I did.
Is that the flip side of fear,would you say?

Michael Devous (24:46):
I know, actually I don't think that it's the
flip side of fear.
This is interesting.
You and I had talked previouslybecause we do our homework.
We did About Brunet Brown andshe mentions courage, talked
about courage a lot, as well asshame and other things that I
find fascinating.
Fear has been obvious.
I mean, courage has beendescribed as facing fear and

(25:07):
knowing that you have fear aboutsomething and doing it anyway.
I think that's a little kind ofoblivious.
I think real courage isunderstanding the risks and the
challenges in front of you 100%and then taking them on and
mitigating them based on yourunderstanding of a few things.
One is desire and passion fordoing what it is you wanna do.

(25:28):
Two, you know what.
I have enough confidence in whatI'm capable of to take this on,
even with those risk factors,even with the self-doubt that's
dragging me down or bothering meor confronting me.
And three, that you somehow knowand I don't know if I wanna
describe this as hope, but it'ssomething that you know that's

(25:49):
on the other side, the unknownresult.
That's on the other side ofthis challenge, on the other
side of this task, that there'sgoing to be some reward, that
there's a growth opportunity,there's change that's coming.
But part of you knows there's atickle in the back of your
brain, or your soul, your spirit, that goes you know what, if I
do do this, something great isgonna become of me, something

(26:10):
amazing is gonna happen.
I feel that and I need to takethis on and I think that is real
courage, because the risk offailing and the cost at failing
it gets greater and higher themore you care about what you're
taking on and you are so fullyaware and present and of what
that risk is to you and to thepeople that it impacts, that

(26:34):
even though you take it and doit anyway, I think that's real
courage in the face of all ofthat.

Jen Salerno (26:40):
Well, I wish that that is something that we could
tap into all the time.
So I think that's somethingthat I find so bizarre about
fear, or when you have the lackof courage, is trying to
remember those past experiencesand being like I did that, why
can't like where is that now?

(27:02):
And also the fact that it canbe something as simple as do.

Michael Devous (27:09):
I wanna post down links in today and then
feeling so kind of fear aboutthat something so small, most
things yes, where's that kid whogot back on that bicycle after
falling down a hundred times andstill learned how to ride that
as a child?
Just the act of learning to ridea bicycle when you look at it
and you stand back, little tinykid on two wheels, going fast,

(27:36):
the risk of failing which, bythe way, every time you fail in
riding a bicycle, you get hurt,like literally get hurt, you
fall off, you fall down.
It's no joke.
But kids have this resilientspirit that goes get back up and
get on there.
You know, of course they havetheir parents backing them up

(27:56):
and helping them and guidingthem and cheering them on all
the way, but which is probably agreat thing.
By the way, surround yourselfwith people that love, respect
you and support you and hold youup and in that light that's
gonna hold your candle up inthat storm and not only protect
it for you but relight it withtheir light and their joy and
their energy.
If that's you know what I mean,get those people around you and

(28:16):
you will always get back up andride the bicycle.

Jen Salerno (28:18):
I think you hit down a big key right.
There is a support system, yeah.

Michael Devous (28:23):
Yeah, I think it's crucial to have one
surrounding.
And if that's one of the things, when you look at the fears
that you're facing in your lifeor the choices that you're
making, do you have a supportsystem that can help you with
that particular fear you'refacing, that particular
challenge you're about toovercome, or the thing that you
wanna become next?
If you can identify thatthere's a gap there, then

(28:45):
perhaps filling that gap withthe right support system or
individual who can back you upwill give you that actual little
nudge that you need to takethat challenge on and find the
courage to face that fear.
Right, very true, very true.
Well, okay, so I was looking atsome of your posts on LinkedIn.
I was, you know, trolling andscrolling and you had a post in

(29:10):
June that you labeled fear orfulfillment, and you had talked
about Steven Pressfield's book,the word War of Arts, and said
the more scared we are of workor calling, the more sure we can
be that we have to do it, andyou mentioned that you had a

(29:32):
choice.
I can let myself feelintimidated and unworthy, get
stuck comparing myself andasking who do I think I am to be
here, or I can remind myselfthat I'm on my own journey, that
I'm investing in this coursebecause I know in my heart that
I'm meant to do this and that Iaspire to be around people who
inspire fulfillment.
So where are you with thatjourney and that philosophy?

(29:58):
I love that you wrote thisbecause, yes, there are two ways
to feel about taking on a newproject, a new career path, a
new job, a new course thatyou're trying to do, especially
when you're the one that'schanging, when it's you that is
making some deep, meaningful,impactful change in your person

(30:20):
by taking this on that sort ofimposter syndrome or that
self-doubt that can creep in.
But I love how you're remindingyourself that you're on a
journey.
Talk to me a little bit aboutthat journey.
And you're still on the journey.
I assume this was only a fewmonths ago, oh my gosh, you're
like nope, I'm done.

Jen Salerno (30:37):
I'm out, See you later.
Listening back to what I wrote,I mean, the first thought that
went in my head was well, wheredid that go?
How do I?
I do this.

Michael Devous (30:50):
All the time I look back at my stuff and
somebody shows it to me, I'mlike, oh, that's really cool.
Who wrote that?
And they're like you did.
And I'm like, oh my God.

Jen Salerno (30:58):
Wait, where did that attitude go?
Because I must and I rememberwhen I did that post, because I
was reading that book thatmorning and I came across that
and I was just like, oh you know, turn to the computer and I'm
just like inspired, inspired inthat flow state or whatever,
just like those things just comepouring out.
And then I will go back andlook and be like, oh right, so

(31:21):
you said something aboutreminder Like maybe we should go
back and read all of ourLinkedIn posts as reminders.
But when we do have thosemoments of clarity because I
think that's what it is.
Those are these moments ofclarity.
I guess what really ischallenging is where I'm at on

(31:42):
my journey right now, or I mean,maybe it's been challenged
throughout my whole life andmaybe is for most people, is
that you have to.
It is a constant daily reminder, like I don't think anyone just
reaches that point, like yousaid, where it's like, oh no, I
have reached the end of thisjourney.
I am, you know, I'm fear, I'm100% fear less, like I right.

(32:08):
I mean I don't think thatthat's ever going to happen.

Michael Devous (32:13):
I really should put a dash in it called the fear
less road, because the practiceis to learn how to fear less
and move into and move towardsand lean into doing more right
With your life, your challenges,whatever those things are.
No one's completely 100%fearless.
There's not possible RightUnless you're a sociopath, I

(32:34):
suppose.
But and no dig on sociopaths,so don't dive on my show but the
idea of this practice on thejourney is, I think sometimes we
fall out of practice, we justget distracted by life.
We get distracted by politicsand TV and family and other
people's issues and things goingon.
That our actual practice ofbeing fearless, learning to be

(32:57):
fearless, asking the questionsand investigating our own
personal journey and our growthit just falls to the wayside
because we start putting otherpriorities first.
I think this practice is crucial.
I think we don't want to waittill we're 50 and just wake up
one day and go oh my God, howdid I get here?
Which is what happened to meagain.
I mean, I've done that fivetimes oh my God, how did I get

(33:20):
here?
Well, do you really want tokeep asking the question or do
you want to be more present andintentional with the practice of
your own life, your own journey.

Jen Salerno (33:30):
Yes, so true, I love that you said that, because
it's just such a.
We do have that choice.
Like you know, I will totallyacknowledge that where I am now,
this journey that I'm on ofentrepreneurship and this
constant facing of fear, whichhas just been exceptional and so

(33:52):
much growth, but it's notsomething that I intentionally
set out to do.
I was kind of, I'm going to say, forced into it, really because
of the pandemic, and so Idefinitely, like I love reading
stories about people who, youknow, made this leap because
they felt like they that's whatthey had to do at the time, and
it's just like wow, like to gofrom something where you felt

(34:14):
super solid, and then you'relike, no, I'm going to jump off
a cliff.
You know, I just was kind ofpushed off a cliff, right, so
it's like, well, I yeah.

Michael Devous (34:22):
We're all I mean .
If you look at that, if youlook at the meme of the world,
and there's like this cliff andthe world's like slowly being
shoved to it by COVID.
You know, necessity is themother of all invention, and
some of those people gotsquirrel suits and dove.
Some of them got parachutes andfloated out.
Other people fell to their.
To my like, covid really shookthe proverbial snow globe of

(34:45):
this planet and what settled outof it, I think, was this
intense growth ofentrepreneurial spirit, of
people taking on things theynever would have done before,
because you had to.
You just had to reinventyourself and find a new path,
and that energy, I think, hasseeped into a lot of places
around the globe.

(35:05):
That is creating newopportunity, new businesses, new
ideas, new pathways, and Ithink that's a pretty cool,
pretty cool thing.

Jen Salerno (35:13):
I do too.
And the funny thing about that,I think you're so right that it
did infuse a whole new worldfor a lot of people.
And also we have we have manydifferent social kind of
platforms to think for that aswell, right, I mean, it's just a
perfect storm of opportunityfor people between being able to

(35:34):
grow this, grow your businesson LinkedIn or Instagram or
TikTok or whatever it may be,but also then the amount of
people who maybe didn't have todidn't have that exact same
experience.
So sometimes I'll go toindustry events and I'll run
into people who I knew fiveyears ago or back in the day
when I was in a completelydifferent career role and they

(35:58):
say I just I love how you'vereinvented yourself, like, I
think it's so amazing and I'mjust like and I always think
about when people say that to mebecause I'm like anyone can
like.

Michael Devous (36:12):
I am like who am ?

Jen Salerno (36:13):
I, no one can do that.

Michael Devous (36:14):
Right, but this is exactly what my family and my
friends said to me.
You always just reinventyourself.
It's so easy for you.
You just land on your feet, man.
Every time something happens,you just poof, come out with a
whole new you and a whole newwhatever.
And I'm like, do I?

Jen Salerno (36:32):
Is that what I'm doing?

Michael Devous (36:33):
Yeah, exactly, and this is what I've talked
about, I think I mentioned toyou before, which is, if you're
not living your life withintention and meaningful purpose
, if you're not, if you'reasleep at the wheel of your own
car of life right, you've got iton autopilot then you just you
accidentally do these things.
You're not intentionally doingthese things, and then when you

(36:55):
discover that you're over time,you have accidentally used the
same set of skills, the samecharacteristic traits and the
same energy or whatever toreinvent yourself, to start over
, to pick yourself back up, andyou just do this because
somewhere deep inside, that'snaturally how you operate, but
you've never been doing itintentionally.

(37:16):
I woke up one day thinking ohmy God, for 50 years I've been
doing this.
What if I did it intentionally?
Like what if I used that energywith real purpose behind it,
set some intentional goals,right Goals, what could I
achieve?
Like what would I become nextif I actually used this for good

(37:36):
?
You know, with great power comesgreat responsibility.

Jen Salerno (37:40):
I love it Well, and you know.
That's why, you know, I thinkit's so important that you're
starting, that you have thispodcast right, because it is
being able to say to just theyou know, you and I are both
like okay, like sure, we havemade some of these moves, either
, you know, purposely oraccidentally or whatever, but
like we are both looking at eachother, like at ourselves,

(38:01):
saying we're just regular people, right.

Michael Devous (38:05):
Right, doesn't everybody just do this?

Jen Salerno (38:07):
Yeah, I thought everybody did this Right.

Michael Devous (38:10):
And so, for the, it never occurred to me to
examine it as a thing you know,like a habit or a.
You know what I mean.
Or is it my go-to?
Is it my fail?
Am I falling back to this?
And when you know one of theinteresting things Travis
Elliott, my yogi instructor,said I love you.
We fall to our practice, meaningthat if you're not practicing

(38:33):
and training 100% every singleday to improve yourself and
build that foundation, what youfall back to, what you fall down
to, what you fall onto, iswhat's left right.
It's the weakest part ofyourselves.
It's that.
It's that, it's that that space, that a doesn't have what you
need, isn't supported or isn'tgetting you where you need to go
.
And for those of us who have a,who have a, either accidentally

(38:55):
practice this, this art ofreinvention and reinventing
ourselves, or choosing to tocome up with new changes and
challenges for ourselves.
Apparently, that foundation webuilt has grown and strengthened
and become a go-to place for uswhen we fall.
And I don't say fail, because Idon't think you're a fail person
that fails.
I'm not a person, I don't thinkthat fails.

(39:17):
I learn If, if, if somethinghappens, it doesn't work out, I
learned.
I learned something aboutmyself, something about the
thing that I'm tackling orsomething about the world around
me, and I can use that to growand change and improve my life
in some way, shape or form.
It may not be huge andimpactful, but it is crucial.
It is a crucial understandingto know that what we fall back

(39:39):
to is is is that area, thatspace that you've been
practicing all along, and it'simportant to make sure you're
well trained and and you've keptup your practice.

Jen Salerno (39:47):
It is amazing and talk about how you could use
yoga in like every, it's likethe perfect analogy for business
and and just you know, a guideto life.
I'm completely with you.
Yes, it's such a wonderful,there's so many wonderful
philosophies that you can takewith you.
I want to.
I want to tell a story.

(40:09):
It made me think aboutsomething.

Michael Devous (40:11):
Let's everybody's studio.
This one, let's get this.

Jen Salerno (40:15):
There's a vulnerable moment for the show.
Okay.

Michael Devous (40:19):
Vulnerability, the power, the source.
Let's talk about this.

Jen Salerno (40:23):
Back in May I did something that was.
That was a big leap for me andit was, you know, I.
So I'm on this entrepreneurialjourney as a moderator and an MC
and I did an event.
I MCed an event.
I've MCed events, I've MCedsessions.
I've moderated plenty ofsessions, probably mostly
virtual, over the last severalyears, right, and then slowly

(40:47):
there were some more in-personthings happening, but this was,
to be completely honest, thefirst multi-day conference MC
in-person in front of a.
It was about a 500 personaudience, right, the first time.
That in itself terrifying.

(41:08):
Right, like I knew I'd beenworking, working towards it.
Yes, I've been working on allthese, you know, over the last
three years, the skill set to doit, but like there's nothing
like actually doing it, yes, andfor our audience.

Michael Devous (41:23):
Just by the way, if you're not familiar with the
event industry space and whatan MC does for an event like
she's describing with, there's a500 person event, multi-day the
MC is the glue.
The MC is the narrator of theentire course and path that the
event takes, based on what theevent planners and the creators

(41:43):
wanted the messaging that has toget out there, the updates that
have to come out through theday, the keeping up with the
spirit and the energy, theconnecting of people and
resources and engagementopportunities throughout the
event.
You're the thing they look at.
You're there on camera in frontof everybody 100% of the time,
making sure that everything'sgoing smoothly and ensuring that
people get what they need andthat the messages that are

(42:05):
coming through are beingcommunicated.
So take us through that journey.

Jen Salerno (42:09):
Well, I mean, first of all, I could not have said
it better myself.
That was perfect.
That was like literally exactlyhow to describe that role.
I know.

Michael Devous (42:17):
Yeah, so no pressure right.
It's just you and three daysand the 500 people waiting
breathlessly for you toentertain them and keep them up
to speed.
Exactly.

Jen Salerno (42:27):
And really it was.
I knew I could do it and I diddo it, and I know that I
executed it.
I'm going to say professionally, because I'm a professional
right Like I prepped.
What came out of that, though?
I will say there was somefeedback, there was feedback,

(42:49):
and it was not exactly what Iwas hoping for, and what happens
, what happens when you get thatkind of feedback After
something like that, the thingyou've been working for, holy
cow how did you take it?
You know?

Michael Devous (43:06):
I mean, at first , Because at three days have
been in Jerry Like, no, itwasn't horrible, it wasn't
horrible and it was what I,frankly, I knew.

Jen Salerno (43:16):
I knew that that was, I knew what my weakness was
going into it, and weaknessbeing that it was the first time
, but also just just the factthat I'm still learning.
Frankly, I'm still gaining,trying to gain confidence of
being on a stage, and which iswhich sounds bizarre because

(43:37):
it's like, well, this is whatI'm doing and I love doing it
and I do have a certain degreeof natural ability to do that.
But there is a differencebetween getting up and giving a
speech you've practiced versusMCing, which is a lot of improv,
right, and that is an it's more.

Michael Devous (43:56):
Well, mcing is your personality.
I mean, mcing is you when thechip.
So the biggest challenge Ithink most of us have these days
and I'm going to say this forevery industry and almost every
person on this planet is to findyour authenticity and live it.
When you share thatauthenticity in a public forum,

(44:18):
on a stage, with people who willreview that personality and
that authenticity, and if itdoesn't resonate with them, it
can be very challenging and verydifficult to swallow that I
wasn't a good fit but I didn'tbring my authenticity game or

(44:40):
whatever.

Jen Salerno (44:41):
Well, that was it.
I didn't bring authenticity, Ibrought professionalism, like I
said, but like I, I kept myselfin a.
I think I kept myself in a box,like, like.

Michael Devous (44:54):
Jen Well scripted, like well scripted and
Jen Okay.

Jen Salerno (44:59):
Jen didn't come out on that stage, Okay, and so,
and it was noticeable, so, okay.
So when I so yes, was there Benand Jerry's or you know the
tears for sure, tears for sure,and and and, long walks and
thinking and reflecting and allof that, but also it's like

(45:20):
double down, Like that's where Ialso, like I had, I had the
little period of sadness andthen it was like, well, what am
I, what am I going to do here?
So it's like I know that I needto get some additional
confidence to just like, letsome, let whatever it is go.
That makes me afraid to just beme on a stage, right?

(45:40):
So you know, I'm going to signup for an improv course and just
like, like that's the move, youknow, like that it's that, and
I probably should have done it along time ago, but, like you
know, it's just I just got tokeep doing it.
You know what another thing thatI think about all the time is
like, just like I should just dolike 30 days of like LinkedIn

(46:02):
lives, Like so, if audience, ifyou're listening to who's going
to watch, I don't care, nobodybut just the act of like going
on a camera for 30 days and justlike break down, break down
that fear of just letting it out.

Michael Devous (46:22):
Yes, and listeners, I will tell you like
every one of you out therelistening should take an improv
class.
Take an improv class.
I swear you're gonna discoverso many things about yourself
that you didn't know before.
But you also, when you completethese courses and these improv
opportunities, your confidencein conversations, in live
reactions, in personalrelationships, in engaging with

(46:46):
others in public spaces whetherthat be one-on-one, with
multiple people or in aprofessional setting you will
gain improvisational skillsetsthat you can put in your pocket
and be like ha ha, I know how toplay this game, I can say you
know what if, and I can askpertinent questions or I can
tease out something thatsomebody else was saying,

(47:06):
because improv is cool.
It's just a great opportunity tosee where your authenticity
lies, in terms of both yoursense of humor as well as your
listening skills, because if youare not a good listener, you
cannot do improv.
You've got to learn to hearwhat others are saying in order
to play off of it, and thatmeans you've got to be tuned in,

(47:29):
and that's, I think, animportant.
I think a lot of us aren'ttuned in right.
We walk into our work spaces,we walk into our offices, we
walk into our buildings.
Hi, it's Rhodes.
You know how was your day?
Having coffee and by the coolerand stuff like that, we're
really not tuning in to whatpeople are saying and probably
their body language as well.

Jen Salerno (47:47):
We're just like in our heads most of the time,
right, you're living in thisspace if you're living in a
space of just like right there,right there with you and
listening to you, I'm gonnabounce off of you Like I mean,
and that's what an MC I know,like I know that's what an MC's
job is, and I know I've seen youknow fabulous MCs, and like

(48:09):
when you were hosting that gameshow, I mean you were like very,
very authentic, I mean you know.
I mean it was just like you.

Michael Devous (48:16):
Did you know, right before we went, when we
went live?
Because we were live.
This is a live broadcast forthose of you who don't know in
front of how many thousands ofpeople were at the event, at the
conference.

Jen Salerno (48:26):
Oh gosh, I mean it was at least 4,000, I think yeah
.

Michael Devous (48:32):
There was a gulp moment when the camera went
live and I knew that I was on ascreen somewhere in front of all
these people and I was like mymouth went dry.
My hands I keep.
They were shaking.
But they were down here and Iwas like, oh my God, get it
under control, michael.
Like you've done this before.
What the hell are you doing,like?

(48:52):
Why are you so nervous?
Where'd this come from?
You know and this is not thetime to have the inner
conversation with my fear, likewhich I normally would do which
is hey, are you okay?
What's going on with you?
Why are you suddenly showing up?
Let's sit down and talk aboutthis.
Well, I can't do it on camerabecause I'm in front of all
these people at an event, so I'mlike you gotta take a backseat,
I gotta perform.

(49:14):
So I need you to calm down so Ican be real and enjoy myself,
and that's my job is to bringthe joy in the moment at the
funding engagement.
Right, I can't be cold andnervous for these people.
I gotta be that glue factorthat engages with them and
brings them together, makes themfeel comfortable on camera.

Jen Salerno (49:32):
And you did so.
Like I know, those of usparticipating or watching
probably didn't notice that atall.
You know, I certainly didn't,probably because I was in my own
little fear moment.
Right, If I was a contestant orsomething like that.
I know I had to talk Every timeyou have to.
You know you have to talk.
It's like you get that littlelittle butterflies right, but

(49:53):
then once you're going, it'sfine.
But I mean the thing that's soimpressive.
You know, like how many yearshave you been doing that kind of
role?
I mean, like you just said,it's the fear still strikes you.

Michael Devous (50:04):
It's still there .
It does, and I think that'sbecause, like I said before,
when you know you're steppinginto something that is important
to you, that is of moral,ethical, philosophical, personal
, emotional value, you're gonnabe a little nervous.
Right, you're carrying thislittle egg of joy and experience

(50:24):
.
You could drop it.
You know you could make amistake, it could cost you
something.
You know If you lost it or ifit didn't work, the amazing
thing is is it's never gonnakill you.
I mean, unless you're jumpingoff a cliff, it's not gonna kill
you.
You know these fall downs, theserisks, these mistakes, this
fear that you feel you're notgoing to die, you will change,

(50:48):
there will be an impact andthere may be a consequence.
But if you take every one ofthose and use it as a building
block for the next experience, Ithink we can turn that fear
into a fuel and we can make itpowerful for us and the sense of
direction and give us someguidance on where we are with
ourselves in those moments.

(51:08):
Right, if it pops up, thatmeans something's happening in
that moment you should be awareof, you need to wake up and pay
attention, because there'ssomething happening in this
moment that is resonating withyour little fear factor.
Your little mingdala is goingoff right and warning you about
something that's valuable andimportant to you in this moment.

Jen Salerno (51:27):
I mean, if that isn't like a guide to life, I
don't know what is.

Michael Devous (51:33):
Write it down.

Jen Salerno (51:35):
No wait, you're so right.
I mean, it is an indicator.
It is like a flag that's likehello, something important is
happening, pay attention.

Michael Devous (51:45):
Hello, pay attention, yeah when what's the
opportunity?

Jen Salerno (51:49):
Yes, like what.

Michael Devous (51:51):
What is the opportunity?
And and so I'm gonna jump herefor my opportunity to ask you,
jen Slerno, what is yourrelationship with fear?

Jen Salerno (52:03):
My relationship with fear is it?
I cannot say.

Michael Devous (52:08):
Do you have one?
Are you aware that you have one?
Oh?

Jen Salerno (52:11):
yes, I do and I mean it is.
I cannot say that.
I'm at a point where fear is myfriend.
I know that's.
I know that's the ultimate goal.
Fair enough.

Michael Devous (52:26):
It is.

Jen Salerno (52:26):
It's more like.
It's more like that.
It's like a naggingex-boyfriend when you're like
why are you popping up again?

Michael Devous (52:39):
We got bad blood .

Jen Salerno (52:41):
It's like Taylor Swift, you know, and so I am
still working on everything thatyou, everything you just said
about the fact that when it popsup, it's like okay, wait, this
is opportunity.
You know, I still am extremelysusceptible to letting it
negatively impact me, and sothat is the practice.

(53:03):
The practice is to kind of putup that shield of against, you
know, the nagging ex.
That text does not have tothrow you off, you know Right,
and just say, okay, you can justhang out right there, like it's

(53:25):
almost like saying, like yousaid, like you need to take a
backseat right now, like youjust like don't, let I let it
bother me.
I do still let it bother me.

Michael Devous (53:35):
But don't you think that's part of it, that
part of the reason why we do nothandle fear well is because
we've been taught all our livesnot to handle it well.
Like we've been taught crushyour fear, kill your fear, push
it away, shove it down, run fromit.
If you have to ignore it, it'lljust go away.

(53:57):
None of those are activelyengaging with it as a fair and
valuable component of your life.
Like, if it's fear you'refeeling, it isn't from the
outside right, it's not somebodydoing something to you, it's
you, it's your personality, it'sone of your personality traits

(54:18):
the kind personality trait, thehappy personality trait, joyful
personality, sad personalitytrait.
Well, fear is one of yourpersonality traits and it has a
voice and it isn't going away.
And I feel like what we've beentaught is to treat it like some
redheaded stepchild we wantnothing to do with and I just
think that's not working.

(54:38):
It just isn't working and it'snot healthy.
And so, yeah, my job or my roleor my passion right now, you
know, with Fearless Road andwith Making for your Friend, is
to look at it differently andstart treating our fear as a
valued partner in our journeywith life.
And how do you treat a valuedpartner?
What do you do with a valuedpartner?

(54:59):
What are the steps we take toincrease and engage with and
foster a relationship with avalued partner?
Right, right, and I think if westart framing it or reframing
it this way, I think we willcome through and out the other
side of fear so much, so muchbetter and more improved than

(55:20):
than we ever could have beforeif we treated it.

Jen Salerno (55:24):
It's so right.
It is all in the reframe, soyour fear is.

Michael Devous (55:30):
Oh, it's all in the reframe Right.

Jen Salerno (55:32):
It's all in fear is an uncomfortable emotion, right
, and so that's.
That's another area and I thinkabout.
This is a phrase that my one ofmy yoga teacher said that I
really try to hang on to andremember, which is find comfort
in the discomfort and oh, yesright and I always think about

(55:57):
it when he would say it would bein a half pigeon.
Right Like right.

Michael Devous (56:03):
And like just breathe in to this breathe into
this discomfort, find somecomfort here, and it's like man
like and so that yeah, for thoseof you who don't know, sorry
I'm we just made a referenceyoga pose called the half pigeon
in Yin practice.
So there's yoga.
There's like yoga, power yoga,which is the, the Yang, which is

(56:26):
the active, moving through allthese poses with a lot of energy
and power.
Yin is the relaxed and calmversion of this holding a pose
for a long period of time.
And one of those poses you holdin Yin yoga it's called the
pigeon.
You fold one leg in front, oneleg behind and then you're
supposed to lean over that leg.
You're supposed to lay down andrelax and put your head on the

(56:47):
floor.
Well, if you have hips like meand knees like me and a back
like me staying in that pose, isnot comfortable at all yeah and
sitting in that, sitting inthat discomfort, your brain
starts to do things fiddle,monkey, mind, you name it.
All kinds of things are goingto flutter in on your brain

(57:08):
because it's trying to get youout of a pose that is physically
a little uncomfortable.
But you have to breathe throughit and maintain and I think
it's important practice insitting in discomfort because
you can do it.
You can and you won't.
You won't die, it's not goingto kill you.
But what you learn aboutyourself is that when you, when

(57:30):
you're approached withdiscomfort, when you know it's
coming, in a situation that'sgoing to arise where your
discomfort is there and live andactive, because you've
practiced this before, becauseyou've done other things where
you've sat in discomfort longenough to go okay, okay, I'm
gonna get this you can use thatpractice in these situations and
I think it makes a bigdifference.

(57:51):
I do too.

Jen Salerno (57:51):
I do too, and so it really comes down and we keep
using the word practice and Ithink that's such a key, such a
key because it is, you know,like, like a meditation practice
.
You know they always say it'slike five minutes a day is way
better than two hours once aweek.
You know, like it's just, it'sa daily thing.
It is a daily thing that youhave to just keep pushing

(58:13):
yourself to do, and life is apractice.

Michael Devous (58:18):
Life is a practice.
None of us got a book or amanual on this.
None of us were sent down heregoing.
I got this human watch maybeJesus, okay, like, maybe he had
this but the rest of us, we'reall here shooting from the hip.
We're all here just trying ourbest, you know, stumbling over
the things that and, by the way,life brings so many strange and
weird confrontations andobstacles and opportunities.

(58:40):
And it totally depends on whichpath you're chasing and where
you're putting that energy,because each direction you go
you're going to get a new set ofobstacles, a new set of
challenges, a new set ofopportunities in front of you.
There's no book Now.
There's us, there's thefearless road, there's podcasts
you can listen to, there'speople you can you can you can
listen to, a tune into, to get alittle feedback and insight on.
But, trust me, you're not aloneon this journey of life and it

(59:02):
is a practice to be fearless andtry to stay fearless.
So, talking a little bit aboutthat part of the practice, are
there any specific goals ormilestones in your practice at
life that you have upcoming infront of you?

Jen Salerno (59:21):
Well, I will say, you know, I had a podcast
previously and it was called theRoom Black, and I did.
I ran it for about two years,so from summer 2020 to summer of
2022.
And then I stopped because Ifelt like I was getting busy,

(59:41):
and I was, and I still am.
However, talk about somethingthat's a practice, right, I mean
the.
The practice of running andoperating and hosting a podcast
is something that is extremelybeneficial.
So a hand swap to you for fordoing it, but I do feel like
it's something that I want tostart again, not not that

(01:00:04):
specific podcast, but somethinga little different, not having
to do with fear, but yes, Ipicked a good subject.

Michael Devous (01:00:15):
I'm just saying it was like, wow, this is what
you want to talk about.

Jen Salerno (01:00:19):
It's so, it's super helpful.
I know that everyone's going toloving it, but yeah, but so
something like I would say thatthat is, that is something.
A goal that I have is to getthat going again Because,
honestly, it's, it keeps me inpractice.
It keeps me, you know, honingmy craft of speaking and

(01:00:40):
conversing and and moderatingconversations, and I just want
to get back to that more,because it's something that I
really do love doing and it canonly make me better.

Michael Devous (01:00:51):
Well, if this is your, if this is your art, if
engaging with people is your art, right and and using your voice
as a platform is is part ofyour art, then how do we
practice?
Like, where's my canvas?
You know, picasso could go intoyour studio every afternoon
alone by himself and his paintbrushes and his colors and

(01:01:11):
create magic, but he practiced,right.
I mean, it was an art for himto practice getting on that
canvas.
Well, I thought of the samething last year when I was this
idea of the podcast and mymotivational speaking career
came about.
I wanted a place to practicethe art of me.
I wanted a place to.

(01:01:32):
I wanted a canvas and aplatform where all of the paint
brushes and colors of who I amcould come to life and that I
could give and use that to giveback to a community.
And I and I feel like you'reright, that this is, this is
where I practice and it's it's,it's a space for me to really
just sort of, you know, learnhow to be a better me by

(01:01:53):
listening to other people andown their journeys.

Jen Salerno (01:01:56):
Yes, so thank you for having me here.
Thank you for allowing me todescribe how you describe
different things about yourjourney or entrepreneurship, or
the work that you do.
You have a very beautiful wayof describing it it is a gift.
So this, this is, this is, thisis where you're meant to be for
sure Speaking to share my gift.

Michael Devous (01:02:19):
Yes, and speaking of that, like my last
sort of well, before I get to mylast question, actually, there
was a second post that you wroteback in March.
You just talked about some ofyour milestones and your future
that you want to tackle and addto your particular plate, which
I find interesting because youposted are you placing

(01:02:43):
unnecessary limits on yourselfSometime?
Limits are good for us.
However, have you ever stoppedto consider if you're placing
limits on yourself or othersthat might not be so helpful, so
you're placing the opposite ofa limit?
Is you're placing a bar rightIn life?
I think we do both.

(01:03:04):
We place limits and we placebars, and somewhere in between
these two, right In that zone,is where we live.
Right, this is the space welive in, this is the space we
exist in and hopefully, this isthe space where we're abundant
and we're growing and we'rebeing amazing.
But if our limits and our barsare too close together, is there
room for growth?

(01:03:24):
Oh man.

Jen Salerno (01:03:25):
That's a good question, Terry Bradshaw.
Write that down.
I could help.

Michael Devous (01:03:31):
But wonder I want to be on my bed with my
little journal and be like isthere room for growth?

Jen Salerno (01:03:40):
I love the way that you just described all of that.
Yeah, I think they can be tooclose together.
I think that, and I find thisin myself too.
You just asked me a questionabout what my goal is.
Like okay, well, I already hada podcast, so like that's my
goal to start it again.
No, but like there is more.
There is more, and I almostfeel like I do I dare to even

(01:04:02):
think it or speak it or say it,and that is the key is allowing
ourselves to want that and tothink it and to say it and to
speak it out loud.

Michael Devous (01:04:15):
So that's, you're talking about
vulnerability, which brings meto my final question.
We ask our guests, when theycome on the Fearless Road, to
share their personal journeyswith us, especially talking
about fear, which means we haveto be vulnerable and, as I've

(01:04:36):
always said, this is avulnerable space.
This is a great space to shareyour vulnerability and be
vulnerable.
You will not be judged here.
You will not be ridiculed.
This is a space to bevulnerable and share
vulnerability.
Talk to me about isvulnerability necessary for
courage?
Is it vulnerable?
Is vulnerability necessary forprogress?

Jen Salerno (01:04:55):
Yes, oh yeah, I think so for sure.
I feel like women tend to havean easier time with this aspect
because we are allowed, we areallowed to feel more vulnerable
and to act more vulnerable andto speak in a more vulnerable
way.

Michael Devous (01:05:16):
There's that society limit on men and bar for
women.

Jen Salerno (01:05:21):
Yes.

Michael Devous (01:05:22):
Right Men are limited because we're not
allowed to be vulnerable, womenare encouraged instead of bar
high Be vulnerable.
You're not a woman if you'renot vulnerable.

Jen Salerno (01:05:30):
Exactly so.
Yes, it is 100% necessary.
I have a friend who is a manand he is extremely emotional
and shows vulnerability a lot,and then in the next breath
we'll say I'm sorry to be soweak, and I say you are not weak

(01:05:53):
.
That's incredible strength toshow that?

Michael Devous (01:06:00):
How do we teach God I'm going to say the world,
and I know this is ambitious,hopefully my show reaches the
world how do we begin to teachour audience and our listeners
that vulnerability is a powersource?
It is a source of yourauthentic power and it is the
place where your creativity,your ingenuity, your love, your

(01:06:21):
joy, your abundance comes fromyour growth.
That is the nurturing soil onwhich we grow the fields of
brilliance and ingenuity andcreativity.
How do we teach that?
How do we share with the worldand people that being vulnerable
is okay, not just okay?

Jen Salerno (01:06:40):
It's necessary.
And it's showing strength.
I think it's a show of strength.

Michael Devous (01:06:48):
Well, so then it requires first I guess it
requires a redefining.
Right, you have to redefinewhat vulnerability is as
strength and vulnerability twosides of the same coin.
Right, you can't get strengthif you're not vulnerable.
I mean, let's put it in gymperspective you go into a gym

(01:07:10):
and you stand there and you'relike I want to get big and
muscular and strong.
Well, guess what?
You can't do that if you don'tpick up a weight.
You got to get vulnerable firstand find out that's too heavy,
You're never going to lift it.
You got to go down here and saywell, I'm going to start with
the 15-pounder.

Jen Salerno (01:07:28):
You're right, though that's a great way to
analogy.

Michael Devous (01:07:34):
Right.
So if what you want is growth,if what you want is advancement,
if what you want is progress inyour life, you have to start
from a place of vulnerabilityand acknowledge there are places
that need strengthening andplaces that need growing and
places that need training andpractice.
That's vulnerability, that'sacknowledging.
I need to grow and in order todo that, I got to get vulnerable

(01:07:57):
first and I got to pass throughthis.
Gosh, I love exploring thesethings because they help me see.
You know, in my perspective,that I have had these strengths
all my life, that I have had andI have been displacing or
misplacing my strengths bymislabeling them, by not giving

(01:08:22):
them appropriate attention andby not honoring them as part of
me, and I think it's time we dothat.
I think it's time we take astep back and we honor fear, we
honor vulnerability.
We honor that.
It takes those things to get tocourage.
It takes those things to get tofearless.
Right, gosh, good stuff.
So if people want to find JenSilvernaut, how do we find it?

(01:08:47):
You?

Jen Salerno (01:08:47):
mentioned LinkedIn, which I'm very thankful for.
So, yes, that is definitelywhat I'm posting the most these
days.
That just I guess that's justwhere I like to have the
conversations, that similar towhat we're having now.
I do have an Instagram accountand some JT Salerno Facebook as
well, but, yeah, linkedinprimarily.

(01:09:08):
And then my company is JTSConnect, so my Evo website, so
JTSconnectcom, and that is.
It is through this company thatI offer event hosting, mcing,
moderating, as well as podcasthosting or on-camera hosting
services to any type of client.
But I do love to serve theevents and hospitality industry,

(01:09:30):
because that is where I camefrom.

Michael Devous (01:09:34):
And they love you.
Speaking of loving you, I loveyou and I'm so appreciative of
you for coming on this showtoday and sharing with us your
journey.
I'm sure I'm going to have youback again, because it's a
journey and you're going tolearn some things and you're
going to have some new stuff toshare especially when you're
sitting in these bars.
Right, so when we let everybodygo today, is there a message or

(01:09:58):
anything you'd like to sharewith the audience before you
part?
Is there some kind of positivefeedback?

Jen Salerno (01:10:04):
Yeah, I mean, I would say for anyone listening,
it really just comes down to youjust kind of do it.
This is funny.
So my husband who is for suremy biggest cheerleader by far he

(01:10:26):
likes to quote Martin Lawrencefrom the 90s.
He's nothing to it but to do it, and 99.9% of the time he's
totally right.
It is.

Michael Devous (01:10:43):
Ain't no thing but a chicken wing.

Jen Salerno (01:10:45):
Just do it, just do it.
I think about you going, youknow, like you were saying
before going on the game show,like just you, just have to do
it.
Me before that event three dayMC just do it, just do it.
Like what other choice do youhave?
Just do it.

Michael Devous (01:11:03):
Oh well, you have a lot of choices.
You can go back to sleep andhit that snooze button on your
life.
That's the thing you know.
But what does that go nowaccomplish you?
You know, accomplish for you.
What does that go on accomplish?
Don't hit this news button onyour life.
Wake up people, because you areon a journey and it's a
practice at this life and youcan become fearless.
So thank you for joining us onthe fearless road.

(01:11:24):
Thank you for sharing your timeand your ears and listening to
us today.
If you want to learn more,obviously, go to the fearless
roadcom with the podcast, or youcan look us up on YouTube as
well and see the blog, all theinformation there.
So, Jen Slernow, namaste, andthank you so much for sharing
your fearless journey with ustoday on the fearless road.

Jen Salerno (01:11:42):
Thank you for having me.
It's been amazing.
It's been wonderful chattingwith you, Michael.

Michael Devous (01:11:45):
Of course You're welcome Okay.
Bye everybody, we'll see youlater.