07. Flavors of Confidence: Unearthing Self-Love and Resilience with Massimo Ragotti

Our Fearless Road podcast this week takes you through an emotional rollercoaster with our special guest, Massimo Ragotti. As a serial entrepreneur, motivational speaker, and recovery advocate, Massimo's journey is a stirring testament to the power of confidence, self-love, and resilience. We delve into his battle with addiction and bipolar disorder and how he leveraged these challenges into a powerful narrative to inspire others. 

Intriguingly, we debunk the common misconception of the "fake it till you make it" mindset and explore the negative implications it brings to our personal growth. Massimo's unique perspective, shaped by his own trials, sheds light on this harmful mindset. Instead, we bring to the forefront the concept of authentic confidence and its significant role in overcoming addiction and mental health stigma. We also touch upon the concerning issue of device dependency, particularly among the younger generation, and the harmful role of social media in shaping our self-worth.

In line with our discussion, we introduce Massimo's empowering book, "Flavors of Confidence: A Sober Method," a compelling resource designed to help you tackle imposter syndrome, the fear of judgment, and inspire you to unearth your unique "flavor of confidence." Join us for this enlightening episode as we unravel the power of unfeigned confidence with Massimo Ragotti. You'll uncover how confidence and fearlessness can transform your journey, helping you rise above any challenge life throws your way.

Episode Transcript

Michael Devous (00:00):
Hey everybody, coming to you from the Fearless
Red podcast studio, it's MichaelDeVue and this week we have
Massimo Ragotti.
Now this episode has beenre-recorded several times in
order to get it right.
I've had so many strugglessinking up audio, with technical
issues, you name it but I wasbound and determined and so was

(00:22):
Massimo.
He's an incredible individualwith an incredible story, coming
from being a serialentrepreneur, a distinguished
public speaker, motivationalspeaker, as well as a recovery
addict addiction recovery addict.
Massimo has this book calledthe Flavors of Confidence, which

(00:42):
came out previously, and now anew version called the Flavors
of Confidence A Sober Method.
And both of these books reallyhelp us step beyond the
addiction recovery programmingand into a life of additional
opportunities for recovery andthriving and living.
And his energy is infectious,his joy is brilliant, his mind

(01:07):
is creative and he is aninspiration.
So this week on the FearlessRoad, you know we're going to
dive a little bit into some ofthese addiction stories, a
little bit into this particularjourney for Massimo, and
hopefully you guys are going toget some amazing tips and tricks
about how to navigate your ownpersonal addictions, step beyond

(01:27):
the recovery methods of the 12step programs and into some new
ways of recovery and some newideas about how you can live and
thrive and become even moresuccessful.
Massimo Ragotti, one of myfavorites, love this guy.
I hope you enjoy it, okay, oh,ladies and gentlemen, here we

(01:57):
are back in studio again at theFearless Road podcast with none
other than the amazing and thewonderful Massimo Ragotti.
We are re-recording becauseboth of us had some issues with
our recording, which you'veknown about for a while.
I've talked about it on theshow and hopefully today you're
going to get an excellentversion of both of us.
So, if not, hopefully Massimolooks and sounds great, because

(02:20):
he's the focus of today's talkand today's interview.
So don't worry about me, justlisten to Massimo and you will
fall in love with this amazingperson who, by the way, I'm just
going to introduce you to yourspeaker, author, entrepreneur
with an incredible story andincredible, incredible
experience, who helps addictsfind their unique flavor of
confidence to achieve andmaintain sobriety.

(02:44):
Massimo currently enduresbipolar disorder, struggles with
the mental health with which weappreciate and we value, has
struggled with multipleaddictions for 23 years and his
attempts to self-medicate, as weall do.
A former addict myself.
He never deeded, though,because he made his own path by
founding companies as anentrepreneur in telecom, baking,

(03:06):
association management,software development,
entertainment, talent management, logistics and health care,
because, if that wasn't enoughnot an overachiever at all
Addiction eventually overtookhis ability to function and was
living on the streets of KansasCity in 2015.
But he remade himself.
He came back from the streets,stood up sober, rose to success

(03:31):
and is here to share his journeyand his sobriety, and the
methods he used to get there andmaintain it with his new book
that is out now Flavors ofConfidence.
Ladies and gentlemen, it is myesteemed pleasure to welcome
Massimo Regotti.
Massimo, how are you?

Massimo Rigotti (03:48):
doing buddy.
Wow, what an introduction.
I don't know what to say.

Michael Devous (03:54):
Well, I had time to like, you know, I had to
redo it, I had to like one upmyself from before after
foobarring the last recording.

Massimo Rigotti (04:04):
I would rerecord with you any day.
I always enjoy ourconversations.

Michael Devous (04:07):
Well, I thank you for being in studio with me
and coming back to do this.
I think you know.
First of all, your message isextremely important for us to
get out there and because yourbook is, I think, is it
rereleasing or is it a newversion or reedited?

Massimo Rigotti (04:20):
It's a new book , so my first book, Flavors of
Confidence a reflection forthose in need was more the
self-memoir of where I had beenmy whole life and a very light
at the end just detailing themethodology that I got sober.
What this book is Flavors ofConfidence sober method, which

(04:43):
is a detailed, deep dive intothe method and nearly as long a
book at 170 pages, so it is whatI would consider akin to the
big book.
Rather, if you're an AA person,this is the guide which you
will use if you utilize theFlavors of Confidence sober
methodology to get sober andstay that way, which is what all

(05:09):
of us want.

Michael Devous (05:10):
Well, I think you know, yes, although those of
us who are probably in themidst of it don't think they
want it right now, you will oneday, by the way, God, love you
and pray that you get there withthe rest of us, because when
you're on the other side ofsobriety, when you're on this
side, where things are so muchbrighter and the world is so
much more intense and amazing, Iknow it can sometimes feel

(05:32):
intense and it can sometimesfeel overwhelming, but I will
tell you that the things thatyou can achieve on the other
side of sobriety are astoundingand so many of my colleagues,
friends and people that I lovein the industry that I talk to
are doing so many incrediblethings with their lives once we
get clean and once we get sober.

(05:54):
And I think you know what'sinteresting about that.
I think so many of us wereartists and overachievers and,
you know, like AAA personalitiesto begin with.
I think the drugs or thealcohol or the medicating
typically for us, I think, ispart of a way to balance that
energy level that we'reconstantly filled with.

(06:14):
That overwhelms us right, and Ithink we get to this sort of
place where suddenly we findourselves medicating because we
don't know how to control anddeal with that part of our
personal energy.
But then eventually, when weget well, life slows you down
Just because you get older, butonce it does, man, when you can

(06:35):
start harnessing it and rain itin and control it.
Man, some of the things we dois pretty amazing, especially
like you.

Massimo Rigotti (06:42):
Well, thank you and I agree with absolutely
everything you said.
The very interesting thing thatI found, especially living on
the streets, because you come upagainst a lot of people who are
addicts yes, several people whostruggle especially with
schizophrenia would be the mostcommon mental health ailment

(07:04):
that I saw when I was on thestreets, which is very scary to
interact with.
But I'm very comfortableinteracting with schizophrenics
now in a way that you know itused to scare me a little bit
because you weren't sure exactlywho you were talking to at that
moment.

Michael Devous (07:20):
Well and I think personalities are one of the
things I talk about is I have avery different personality that
I present to so many differentpeople, depending on the room,
the audience, the job, the role,my friends, and I never thought
of it as a disorder.
I used it as a coping mechanism.
But I also learned very earlywhen I was younger.

(07:42):
This is something I talkedabout a little bit in my
bullying episode, which wasepisode four.
I don't know if you listened orheard about that, but I did.
I watched it.
It was very good, thank you.
And one of the things I learnedhow to do was to be a chameleon
for others, and I was very luckythat I was, that I landed in
theater very early, becausetheater afforded me the

(08:04):
opportunity to really explorethose alternate egos, those
those different personalities,and allow myself to sort of get
those things out.
And then I realized it was askill set and a tool you could.
You could use it in the realworld to manage situations and
manage different outcomes withdifferent sets of people by sort

(08:27):
of adjusting yourself to meettheir needs, you know.

Massimo Rigotti (08:31):
Yes, and I think a lot of us do that to
varying degrees.
Yes, yes, I think you're right,absolutely, and we at least
those who are bright enough toknow that you have to match the
energy of a room in order tosucceed in life.
But that is definitely a skillset that requires some, some
time and an age.
I think experience it helps youalong the way in that, or else

(08:55):
you don't succeed you and youreally need to pay attention to
that.
Read the room.
They always say.
You know, read the room, readthe room.
Yeah, I was the same way.
I had the theater backgroundand did much the same thing.
I knew how I had to act incertain situations in order to
be successful, and that'sexactly what I did, and that

(09:18):
also can become very tiresome.

Michael Devous (09:20):
Yes.

Massimo Rigotti (09:21):
Eventually, you keep on that mask, keeping up
the mask.
Oh man, yeah, it becomes sothick you may as well start at
four in the morning and slap iton the makeup.
Seriously, there is no way thatyou match inside.
Yes, and as it gets thicker andthicker, it is so hard to hold

(09:41):
and uphold that image to theworld, and that's ultimately
what brought me crashing down.

Michael Devous (09:47):
I think that's interesting that you point that
out when I normally I would divein right now to ask you about
your background.
We will get to that in just asecond, but I did an interview
previously with Kat LaCohi Ithink that was the one that just
came out and she specializes inhelping people recognize that
the persona that they'veliterally been hiding is the

(10:07):
authentic version of themselvesand that that's the one that
needs to be brought to the stage.
That's the one that needs to bebrought forward, is the one
that we've all tampered down,and I, like you, use this skill
to build so many chameleonversions of myself.
That's, by the time I hit mythirties, I didn't know who was

(10:28):
the real me anymore and Istarted doing drugs, meth and
everything else, and it justtook me down a dark path.
But I think that's part of it.
I got lost in the versions ofme that I gave to everybody,
that I no longer knew who washere at home and I was lost in
my own skin, you know.

Massimo Rigotti (10:46):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I liken it to kind of a houseof cards.
Yeah, that that's really whatyou are.
You're fragile, and, and themore that you build that up,
nobody has seen you.

Michael Devous (11:01):
Yes, and and, and so you start really
wondering who you are and wholoves you, right, if you haven't
been giving them the real you,then do they really love you?
Like there becomes a cycle thatyou go into your head about
wait, if I haven't been me, thenthey love somebody that isn't

(11:22):
me.
Oh my God, who are these people?
Are they really my friends?
Am I really their friend?
And you know, of course, whenyou're down in the darkest
depths of drug addiction oraddiction of any kind, you can
spin out in that kind ofthinking.
Speaking of spinning out, wehave already spun and I was
supposed to ask everybody waswas asked Moscow, like I do at

(11:44):
the beginning, to give us somebackground so that the audience
can learn a little bit about youand where you, how you got here
.
So please, I digress, Iapologize, but oh tell, I love
this.
I just you know how I get withyou.
I can't stop myself.

Massimo Rigotti (11:58):
This is great, see.
Anyone who's watching this willinstantly recognize that the
two of us have become goodfriends.
Yes, and that that's.
That's a fantastic thing.
So this makes it relatable, andI and we haven't known each
other that long.

Michael Devous (12:10):
No, but I'm so connected to your story and to
your adventure and to yourjourney.
I feel like we have a verysimilar path and so many similar
experiences.
But I get you and I get eachother very quickly.
We just sort of snapped andjust clicked.

Massimo Rigotti (12:23):
Yeah, we did so .
Anyway, I had what anyone wouldclassify as a typical American
boy type of upbringing.
I was born in Lincoln, Nebraska, and I grew up in the Midwest,
from from Lincoln to Ohio tograduate high school in Kansas

(12:44):
City.
After graduation, I try I wenthere and there and everywhere.
I was in Los Angeles for anumber of years in the
entertainment business, as youalready mentioned, back in
Kansas City after I got married,divorced and now years later,
here I am in Lincoln, nebraska,for about a year now.
So I've gone full circle aroundthe country and I'm back home

(13:09):
done it been there yeah yeah,yeah, exactly.
So that's kind of like thetravel story, but sure the kind
of unique.
Why on earth did this guy headdown this wild path that has him
talking about?
Sobriety begins before I wasborn.
My mom and my father splitbefore I was born and ultimately

(13:32):
my mom remarried when I wasthree and I was adopted by my
dad, who raised me and I had afantastic upbringing.
Yet there was this feeling ofabandonment that struck deep
within me.
When I was eight years old waswhen my dad adopted me and my
father didn't show up to courtand there was a lot of

(13:55):
interaction between people and Iheard a lot of things that I
probably shouldn't heard and orshould have been counseled and
talked to you about what I heard, because it really gave me the
sense that I wasn't working.
You know why?
Why wasn't he here?
You know, was I too ugly?
Was I dumb?

Michael Devous (14:13):
Yes, because what happens in me?
We fill in the, we fill in thequestions, our mind, as I
mentioned this to you before.
When we tell ourselves stories,this is what we're built to do.
If there's not, if it's notfinished, if there's not a great
beginning, middle and end, ourminds will fill in the blanks
and it typically fills it inwith our insecurities and our

(14:34):
lack of self worth.
And I don't understand why thatis, but that's how we develop
our fears Like.
And then, as a boy, just samething with me when I was, when I
was growing up, getting bulliednot only by the students but
also by my teachers.
It shared, it told everybodywhat my worth was and I began to
look at it, thinking I must bedifferent than everybody else

(14:54):
and not as good as everybodyelse, and I didn't know how else
to measure that.
And since there's no counselingand no outlet and nobody to
talk to at the time, just likeyou, we begin to fill in those
holes for ourselves.
Yeah, yeah, that's, that'sexactly what happens, and when
you're a percocious young person, you tend to do that at an

(15:19):
extreme level because you'reable to think of how much, how
much daydreaming did you do andget in trouble for, like I got
so much daydreaming, mike,that's where my brain went nine
times out of 10.
So I was always buildingstories and worlds in my head,
so it's no wonder that I beganto apply them to my, to the

(15:39):
world around me, you know.

Massimo Rigotti (15:40):
Yeah, well, you know, mom said my overachieve.
Overachievement was veryapparent at a young age because
I had two imaginary friends andthe three of us did things
together.
Yeah, so I mean that's.

Michael Devous (15:57):
I feel you, I had an audience, you know, so I
was always performing forsomebody, like it didn't.
I didn't need you in the room,I had an entire audience.
Ladies and gentlemen, here I am, like it was.
I could make the whole thing up, but I didn't necessarily need
everybody to be there.

Massimo Rigotti (16:14):
Right, right, and so you find yourself capable
of doing remarkable things.
So, as, as my childhoodcontinues, I was a good student,
I graduated with honors, Istarted college, but what
started to occur about this timeis that my bipolar disorder

(16:34):
really manifested.
Yeah, it started to reallymanifest.
Yeah, and in extreme mania, Iwas diagnosed my freshman year
of college, but I disregardedthis.
I just said, ah, there'snothing wrong with me, yeah,
it's so standard.

Michael Devous (16:50):
But that's because your, your brain, is
telling you the wrong stuff atthe same time, like it's.
That's what's so hard aboutbipolar is you're inside it and
you, you can't see out from here, right, you're?
It's like that, that sayingwhere they're.
Like you can't read theinstructions from inside the job
.
Yes, exactly.

Massimo Rigotti (17:12):
Exactly, you were inside the job and of
course, I didn't want to thinkthat there was anything wrong
with me.
We never do yeah.
I think a lot of people do yeahIn.
In.
Looking back at it, part of mebelieves that the reason that I
felt that way is that I alreadyfelt discarded.
I already felt inadequate.
I already felt like I wasn'tworth anyone's love or attention

(17:32):
.
So I had all these thingsworking against me.
And now you want to make mebipolar too.
Well, yeah, I should just offmyself.

Michael Devous (17:38):
And now I got to take medication and I got to go
see a shrink.
And, by the way, when you and Iwere being diagnosed, this was
like the eighties, you know, andit was if you were popular, you
had a therapist.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Exactly Because your mom,because your mom and dad were
getting divorced.
But if you were not popular,you you had a shrink and you

(17:58):
were, you were crazy, like yeah,you were.
There was still a stigma aroundmental health, absolutely, and
it was just coming into its own.
It was just finally starting tobe recognized as a valuable
component of life and ofrelationships and of
communication.
And we were at the very earlystages where it was still a
stigma to be diagnosed withanything and have to go talk to

(18:20):
a shrink, unless you werepopular and your mom was on
Xanax.

Massimo Rigotti (18:24):
Well, yeah, and then you were one of the cool
kids.
You had the designer drugs,yeah.

Michael Devous (18:29):
So, true.

Massimo Rigotti (18:31):
It's wild to think about and I was recounting
this with somebody earliertoday just to recognize the fact
that even 10 years ago it wasstill a challenge to say that
you were fighting an addictionthat in today it's pretty
accepted to go to a bar withfriends that are drinking and

(18:54):
say I don't drink.
And people not to badger youinto drinking, yes, Now they're
supportive, oh, no problem.

Michael Devous (19:02):
They don't ask you any questions, they don't
question the phase like but thatis also coupled with the fact
that when we were in our placeof employment, you could not
mention or admit this becauseyou could get fired, whereas
today that's not the case.
Back then it was you could getfired if you had an addiction
and admitted you needed help.
The company wasn't responsiblefor helping you, they didn't

(19:24):
care about your well-being.
And today I think it's well.
Not all companies do this, butit's vastly different.
Number one.
Number two if you are diagnosed, it's now part of HIPAA
violation, so you can't bediscriminated against for it as
a result of employment.

Massimo Rigotti (19:41):
And what that is done, which is a good thing,
is that there's a lot broadersupport in family networks.
Yes, and I don't even feel andI think you're the same way is
that you didn't necessarily feellike you had all the support
that you would have wanted fromyour extended family in framing
up that stability around you.
I mean, I felt personally likeI couldn't even reach out to

(20:04):
those closest to me, as whatwould they think of this
situation on me?

Michael Devous (20:09):
Well, you mean when you were 19 and you were
diagnosed, or the addiction?
Yes, I can imagine that it wasone of those things.
You feel responsible for it.
In a way, that means I need tocarry this, it's my burden, I
don't need to put it on anybodyelse and so, as a result, I
don't need to tell anybody andlet burden them with my

(20:29):
situation.
Well, what's weird about that isyou don't know jack shit about
it, like I didn't know anything.
You know what I'm saying.
Like there's, we're not givinga handbook on crazy and going
like, here you go.
By the way, welcome to the club, we're all here to support you.
It's sort of like uh, you're onyour own and you're trying to
figure it out and, yes, there'sa self help section at you know

(20:51):
Barnes and Noble.
But you could get lost downthat rabbit hole too, without
knowing exactly what it is youshould be doing for yourself.
Then, on top of it, all thosevoices in your head are telling
you you don't have a problem,those people are crazy.
Why are they telling you thisdude, just keep going.
Just keep doing what you'redoing, you're going to be fine,
you can handle this.

Massimo Rigotti (21:09):
Just pack it on , you know exactly, and as, as
you do that and you start tosucceed, you know, coming out of
this without leaning on anyone,excuse me I was able to
continue onward.

Michael Devous (21:25):
Well, those were probably.
Those were probablyaffirmations that you were okay
Because you had some successesunder your belt and you were
like I'm good, right, I'm doingit, but look at me, I'm killing
it, right, exactly, as opposedto you're actually clicking up
the the roller coaster ride forthe edges.

Massimo Rigotti (21:48):
Right, right, no, it wasn't that at all.
Instead, you know, it wassuccess after success in life is
really where I landed.
You know, I went out, I droppedout of college and I ended up
starting several companies insuccession across different
industries and where theaddiction kind of went off its

(22:10):
rails not to speed this along,but there's no sense in talking
about all of the years there butwhere it really went off the
rails is when I was working inthe entertainment business,
because it went from takingclients out to for drinks at and
then that was just part of theday to drinking at breakfast,
drinking at lunch, drinking atnight.

(22:31):
Man, I can't keep going.
Oh, here you go, moss, here'ssome cocaine.
Oh, cool, thanks, I appreciatethat I can keep working a little
bit the hamster wheel.

Michael Devous (22:40):
And the first time you're like, oh, my God, I
can think I can.
I can do 10 times more stuffthan you're exactly, and you can
.
It's a real, it is a realachievement, if you will, for a
very short window, yes.
When you're like, wow, look atme, I'm pushing through, I'm
getting so much stuff done, andso you keep thinking you want to

(23:01):
do more.
But then you also have totemper it because you're like I
can't get to sleep.
So now I got to take all thatstuff to lying down.
Yeah Right, next thing you knowyou're having, you know,
dorothy syndrome.

Massimo Rigotti (23:13):
Yes, yes, exactly, and then eventually
real.
I think really in the beginningwhat it is as someone who's
bipolar and really I admit eventoday I really enjoy mania
periods Because the amount ofthings that I can get done when

(23:34):
I'm in a mania are unbelievable.

Michael Devous (23:37):
Because you're tapping into that part of your
brain.
That is the overachieving, thatis the adrenaline rush, that is
all of those firing modes,brain ideations that are coming
forth.
It's not like you're tappinginto the bad parts, you are
tapping into the good parts.
It's just you're tapping intoit with an excessive amount of
adrenaline and hormones andother things.

(23:59):
That cannot be sustained andthen when the crash happens, you
don't know what to do.
On the other side, there is nolike.
You don't know what's happeningto your life and to your
thinking on the other side ofthat.
Talk us through a little bitabout the other side of mania
for you.
I know you landed in thestreets finally in Kansas, which
was post-using, and of coursethat's what happens to most of

(24:22):
us is that we use to enhancethat part of ourselves that we
think is the best the mania, ifyou will and we reach certain
levels of success and then wehave to do more and more and
more and more of the drugs andthe alcohol and the things to
medicate the rest right, andthen the crash happens.

(24:43):
So I imagine the crash for youis pretty rough.

Massimo Rigotti (24:49):
The crash was pretty rough, so we're going to
tiptoe back just into the verybeginnings of the crash Now.
Nobody would have realized thatI was in the midst of the crash
at the time, but in early 2014,in March of that year, I got
together a few of my friends andwe took a vacation to Destin,
florida, and that's where I met,on the beach, samantha Thomas,

(25:12):
and we became likeinstantaneously connected is the
best way that I can describe it.
It was one of those just firstsite this is my person type of
situations and we became veryclose and kept in contact.
But I was going off the railsand she was challenged herself a

(25:33):
little bit in the confidencedepartment and she had done a
self portrait and the title ofthe self portrait was flavors of
confidence.
Now you can see whereeverything kind of ties together
.
Okay, and the self portrait shedescribed to me was that she
was just pieces of a fake hole,and it's really interesting Say

(25:55):
that again pieces of a fake hole, of a fake hole, a fake hole.
So she's like you know, shejust and so when you look at the
self portrait, if you standback literally just three feet
from it, it looks like a verypolished painting, but if you go
up close you realize that it'sliterally probably close to
20,000 dots that sheindividually dotted and faded,

(26:21):
and I mean it's reallyremarkable.
So, basically, the point ofthis was that she didn't have
the confidence to to, or feellike she had the confidence
necessary to get on with herlife and and really fleshed that
out at me.
She asked me so many questionsabout my own confidence and then
we took this exploration.

(26:42):
While I'm, I'll had a home and Istill you know, I was still
functioning.
We really explored this indepth over the summer of 2014
and into the fall, and that'swhere I really learned a lot
about you know how to frame up,possibly confidence.
We started talking aboutstoicism.
We were relating on ways thatwe could do it.

(27:04):
Of course, all log.
She said to me you reallyshould stop putting that poison
in you, referring to thealcohols.
Bless you, thank you, and and.
But it wasn't until years laterthat I brought this all back in
and and saw that it actuallyhad a foundational function in
me Not drinking any.
So we, we get to the end of theyear, in December of that year,

(27:27):
I've out on the street and andduring this period.
I didn't always have a phone.
I got a PO box and Samanthawrote me letters and she'd asked
me all sorts of questions thatwould keep get me thinking and
keep me going through this whole, this whole period and Really
got me reflecting on myself Oneof the things that really stands

(27:48):
out on me, and it was a movingletter and that I I ended up
sending her an eight page reply.
It was Every time you take adrink.
I want you to write down whatyou were thinking before you
wanted to take the drink andthen write down why you actually
went through with taking thedrink.
And I mean that gets youthinking a lot about why am I
doing this?
And as I went through thatexercise, yeah, and reflected on

(28:09):
it, I realized that once again,all of this was going back to
fear of abandonment, and soreally I had had the opportunity
to figure out what was reallyailing me.
Why was what was I running from?
And and it's kind ofinteresting I was running from
everyone For the fear that theywould run for me, if that makes

(28:31):
any sense.

Michael Devous (28:32):
So I mean, well, yeah, well, it goes back to I,
I need to do it to you firstbefore you do it to me.
Or, as I was doing it when Iwas a kid, I'll do it to myself
first.
So you, when you do it, itdoesn't hurt as bad.
Yeah, yeah, that was mythinking, because I would.
That's how.
That's where myself deprecatinghumor came from.
I'll make fun of myself firstand poke fun at all the things

(28:54):
that are wrong with me Publiclyand make you laugh about it, so
that you won't then turn aroundand use it against me.
It's already out there, so itdisarms them.
But what you're doing is you'rechipping away at your
self-worth.
You're chipping away at yourown value.
When?
When did you wake up andrealize you were still carrying
that abandonment, that boy fromthe courtroom From so many years

(29:17):
ago?

Massimo Rigotti (29:18):
It took me all the way until October of 2015.
Oh, to you to recognize that.

Michael Devous (29:25):
So that's a long time I was ten months.
Well, you were pin-palling withher the entire time, right,
yeah, it was a sort of a.
She was your pin-pall in thedarkness.
Yeah, you, you rode thedarkness from October of 2014
through October of 2015.

Massimo Rigotti (29:38):
December or 24 December until October of 2015
is when I was like really in thedepths of of of everything, and
then I recognized where I wasat, what I needed to do.
But that wasn't enough, it'sstill.
I was challenged, because thenI was in the actual Throws of.
I got to get rid of the alcohol, which is a physiological

(30:00):
challenge.
At that point, Well, it's both.

Michael Devous (30:04):
I would imagine that once you get to that place,
it's physiological,psychological and emotional,
like you're.
It's a trip threat such asscenario.

Massimo Rigotti (30:12):
It is, it is, but I recognized why I was
drinking.
So now it was okay, I should'vebeen writing it down.
You've been, yeah, okay, okay,yeah.
So I had, I mean, and I haveall my notes and everything from
this period.
It's really interesting to goback and read it.
Wow.
So I, because I was journalingat this time so I have a very
active Recollection and when Iwent back and wrote this book

(30:33):
that just came out sober method,I've reviewed those notes from
the time period when we werecorresponding in 2015 and it was
really interesting to take alook back and see how I came to
formulate what I did, and Ithought it was really important
to be to go back and look atthose journals while I was
writing this book so that I gotthe most unique view and I share

(30:54):
some of that in the in thebeginning of the book, before I
really dive into the method,because I think it's important
that people understand that howI came to this, this methodology
, was very honestly, through myown experience and In
collaborating with somebody else.
Were you?

Michael Devous (31:13):
okay, so Going back and looking at those and
reading them.
Were they triggers?
Was it a trip?
Were you afraid that it wouldbe triggers for you?

Massimo Rigotti (31:23):
The the reason.
No, I wasn't worried that itwould be a trigger in terms of a
Rinking.
However, I knew that it wouldbe difficult and we haven't got
to this, but we'll go ahead andthrow it in at this point
because it completes the storyin.
In August of August 1st of 2020, samantha was murdered by a

(31:44):
drunk driver and, and, and.
So it Talk about little circle,yeah, and some sort of weird
fold full circle type of.
That's the only way I can kindof complete the completed in my
mind yeah, but it's.

Michael Devous (31:58):
I don't want to say it's ironic, no, but it's
also a bit poetic in a very darkway.
Do you know what I'm sayinglike?
The irony is that she saved youand the person that saved you
was killed by somebody who alsohad an addiction.

Massimo Rigotti (32:12):
Exactly exactly , and that's a hard thing for me
.
So I mean there are more tearsthat were that brought upon by
reading the these things thanthan anything else.
It because it it hurts, itstill hurts, it's an open wound
in a lot of ways.
I mean it's.
It's behind me Three years now,but it still feels very fresh.

Michael Devous (32:32):
Well, it should.
I mean you loved her and she,you know was, was a pivotal,
influential individual in yourlife that helped shape and
change who you were.
Actually I was a change you,but she brought out the real you
.
She allowed the you to be seenand I think she saw the real you
before you did she did.

Massimo Rigotti (32:52):
That's funny.
You say that because it was.
It's actually the very day thatwe met, the night that we met
she.
She told me that I didn't haveto be drunk to be amazing and
Nobody had ever said that.

Michael Devous (33:06):
isn't it incredible when you hear that
for the first time and you'relike, yeah, you don't realize
that that's what you're doing,like when it stops you in your
tracks Because you you didn'tthink that's what you were doing
, you thought you were justenjoying yourself For the
longest time and then, all of asudden, it took over and it's
like there's this part, there'sthis moment when the window,

(33:27):
like you know, you like you pullthe curtain back a little bit
and you're like, oh my god, I'mstuck in here.
Look at what I've done tomyself, right?

Massimo Rigotti (33:35):
Yeah, no, absolutely so.
It.
It was definitely as you say.
She changed my life, anddefinitely for the better.
But really all that she did,and all she would ever claim
that she did, is that she justFinally had me look in the
mirror and see myself, and thenit's all she would.

(33:56):
She would, she never would takeany credit as I tried to give
her for really helping me.
It was she, I know.
She was happy to to help, butat the same time she put that
back on me and said you had towant it.
And I and I take that as beingvery important to share with
everybody.
Anybody, anybody who wants tonot be an addict anymore.

(34:18):
They have to want it.
And until they want it yes,until you want it, if you're
listening and you're, you'restruggling with addiction you
have to want it.
You have to decide for yourselfthat this is for you.
You can't think about anybodyelse.
You have to think about how itbetter is you?
Because when I thought aboutother people, I couldn't get rid
of the last piece.

Michael Devous (34:38):
I already knew what was wrong with me, but
until I said I want to do thisfor me and I and I decided that
then I never wanted to haveanother drink or do any more
Drunk and don't you think thatmaking that statement, the
problem or the challenge Ishould say that we face In
making this statement you haveto want to do it for yourself Is

(34:59):
that you don't see you'reworthy of it and because of that
you can't make this statement.
And with that's where we we getstuck.
At that last Step, that lasthurdle of Getting clean, getting
sober, getting back on on trackwith our lives, is because deep
down inside, what we reallyfight Is our own self-value and

(35:20):
our own self-worth.
There's a hole there that we'vebeen feeling for so many years
that by the time we get to aplace where we have to stand up
for Ourselves and say I believein myself and I think I'm worthy
of sobriety, that's a very hardThing to say when you don't
believe you're worthy of love oranything else.

Massimo Rigotti (35:38):
That's very true and that's why flavors of
confidence is so work so well,because the cornerstone of all
of the sobriety work isConfidence.
And that is what I realized andrecognized and that was the
brilliance of this, of thiswhole entire endeavor and in the
conversations we had back in2015 and 2014 was that

(36:00):
confidence was the root of beingable to take that next step,
because if I was confident withwho I was and what I was capable
of, I didn't need a drink Inorder to do what I wanted to do.
People often say, with the mostcommon thing, you always hear I
need some liquid courage.
You know, everybody's heardthat term.
Yes, yes, nobody needs anyliquid courage.

(36:20):
Liquid courage is just going tomake you make a fool of
yourself.
Yeah, it would be a muchsmarter if you just had the
inner confidence to go dowhatever it is.
Don't take a shot and go talkto the girl.
Just go over and say hello toher.

Michael Devous (36:35):
So tell me, how would you then describe
confidence from your side of thefence, with what you've
experienced, and especiallybecause you've written this book
, how would you begin todescribe confidence?
A lot of people say it's sohard to be confident.
How do I find my selfconfidence?
And and you're painting apicture here where, where just
having confidence is an.

(36:55):
Is that enough, or is it adevelopment you're talking about
here, like what's our journeywith this?

Massimo Rigotti (37:00):
Oh well, it is enough once you have it.
And it's funny because I I kickoff the second chapter of this
book by Literally pulling out adictionary and defining
confidence is it's defined inthe dictionary, yeah, and then
pointing out the fact that youcan tell that the the editors of
the dictionary you know, Idon't know what those people are
called, but anyway we'll callthem editors but that they don't

(37:23):
even know what confidence isbecause they define it in this
Nebulous sense that they don'tknow what it is.
But you know what confidence iswhen you see it and and that.
And I think that that's verytrue.
But In order to feel confidentis really just feeling secure
that, no matter what gets thrownat you in a situation, you are

(37:43):
not going to waver from who youare.
And when you feel that way,you're confident.
If you ever do not feel thatway, you're not confident.
And there are still momentsthat I'm not confident, but I
tell you what they're very fewand far between.
There are very few situations Ifind myself in now where I'm
not confident to take an actionand know that I'm taking the

(38:05):
correct action.
That is true to myself.

Michael Devous (38:08):
Yes, I have this absurd amount of confidence
like I step into it's.
It is it's almost mania for mebecause People always say you
know that when they've observedme and stuff, they're like you
just go after and do stuff.
And I honestly really thinkthat this goes back.
I think I mentioned it to youin the previous time when we
were recording to, when I I metMary Kay For the first time and

(38:31):
was working on.
I was a dancer in her show andI got to escort her on stage and
introduce her to the 10,000women screaming and she was
always wearing this beautifulpendant that's like a bumblebee
and I was always looking at it,wondering.
And she Caught me staring atthe bumblebee and she mentioned
she's like you're staring at mypendant and I was like, yes, I
mean, you're the queen bee of amulti-billion dollar company,

(38:55):
why do you wear this bumblebee?
I'm not sure I understand thepurpose of it.
She says well, it's veryinteresting that you would ask.
The bumblebee is physiologicallynot supposed to be able to fly
because its wings are are toosmall To actually hold up the
size of its body, so technicallyspeaking it shouldn't be able
to fly.
But she said you know what I,she leaned in and she's like you
know what I love about the bee?
And I was like, no, she goes,the bee doesn't know it.

(39:17):
And I was like, and then, andthen the curtains open and I had
to walk out and I was like itjust occurred to me.
I was like, oh, that's me, Idon't know it.
I don't know, I can't fly, Idon't know that my wings aren't
supposed to be able to do whatthey do.
I just go and attack the thingI wanna do.
I just go, take it on and Istep into it with all the

(39:40):
failures that are gonna come,with all the stumbling blocks
that are gonna happen.
I step fully, 100% into that.
And I guess I don't realizethat there's a negative thing
there.
I don't think I realize youcould get people are gonna judge
you for it Like this podcastand stuff, where I was like I'm
gonna do this podcast and I'mgonna be out there, I'm gonna be
talking.
I have absolutely zero feardoing this Now.

(40:02):
Do I have the fear of runningthe business side of it and
making sure that I get enoughlikes and followers and all that
stuff?
Yes, I don't really understandhow to manage all the social
media marketing and play in thatsandbox, but here, having
conversations with one on one,with people talking about
authenticity, talking aboutcourage and fear at the

(40:23):
intersection of our lives andbeing business people and
like-minded people who reach outand affect and impact the world
100% my place, no problem, andI've always had that.
I think you've always had that.
I think you sparkle withconfidence.
One of the things a lot ofpeople say on the Speaker Lab as
well have mentioned about yourepeatedly is you carry this

(40:46):
beautiful confidence andauthority over yourself and with
who you are, and I wonder ifthat's.
I know that's something thatyou and I have in common, but I
also wonder if it's somethingthat you and I not only carry
with us at the core of who weare, but sort of today, because
of what it's been through, it'snow become this wholly different

(41:08):
thing.
It wasn't just because I'mblissfully naive and stupid,
trying everything under the sunand I'm young and I don't care.
It comes with miles and milesand miles of road behind me,
stepping forward and saying I'vegot this and if I don't, I'm
gonna be okay.

Massimo Rigotti (41:28):
Yeah, yeah, I tell you if you just hit on
something with that laststatement.
If it doesn't, I'm gonna beokay.
My mom often says that I'm acat.

Michael Devous (41:41):
Landing on your feet right.

Massimo Rigotti (41:43):
Yeah, and the first time I heard her say that
I'm like, I don't really likecats.

Michael Devous (41:48):
So when she said , that and she knows this, so
when she said that to me once.

Massimo Rigotti (41:52):
I was like what ?
Then I understood what shemeant.
She told me that she doesn'tworry about me, cause she knows
I'll always land on my feet, andshe said that when I was a
drunk and a drug addict.
So that ability was there.
What wasn't there, or what itwas at that point was fake

(42:14):
confidence and I talk a littlebit about this in my book as
well is that if you put up thatfake confidence, people see
through it.
It's not authentic.

Michael Devous (42:25):
So, in this world of fake it till you make
it, people who have impostersyndrome that are suffering
under the weight of that fake it, who practiced the art of the
fake it till you make itsituation, mainly because they
were suffering from FOMO here'sa bunch of acronyms that we're
gonna throw out at you, yeah,yeah yeah, you know there were
fear of missing out on somethingright, so they began to fake it
until they made it.

(42:45):
I've done that in certainscenarios, but do you think that
there's a danger inherent innot owning the authenticity of
your experience by faking it?

Massimo Rigotti (42:57):
Absolutely.
That's so funny.
You bring that up Cause Iliterally say I literally wrote
that that is the least, my leastfavorite term fake it until you
make it, because you're not.
You might think that you'refaking it, but you're not.
Everybody knows, everybody seesthrough it and it's a lot.
It's a lot more rewarding andof course, I didn't see this

(43:22):
until the other side, but I cantell you right now it's a lot
more rewarding to walk into asituation and walk right up to
whoever's in charge to say youknow, I've never done this
before.
I have no idea what's going on.
Could you, you know, give mesome direction?
Wow, you would be amazed at theresponse you get.
You just made a friend for therest of the evening in a way

(43:43):
that you probably never thoughtwas possible.

Michael Devous (43:45):
One of the things that occurs to me, and I
just listening to you talk aboutthat while we're discussing
this, my brain was just sort ofruminating on it.
I don't think I like the word.
I don't think I like the phrasefake it till you make it,
because what it suggests is thatthere's no start.
What it suggests is thatthere's no beginning for anyone
until you've arrived.
Right, unless you've arrived,then you can claim in stake

(44:08):
you're not an imposter.
Well, what the fuck does thebeginning look like?
Like what is the journey to getthere look like?
If you don't fall and stub yourknee and stub your toe and break
whatever and learn from thoselessons, that's not faking it.
You're making like.
That's making it.
You're literally taking thesteps all the hard ones, by the
way to get to that place, andevery one of us that is

(44:30):
successful, every singleentrepreneur out there that
brags in front of his milliondollar plane at his $300,000
sports car, has done thatjourney.
And that's not fake, that'sreal.
So why do we put that monikeron it?
I don't think I like it either.

Massimo Rigotti (44:47):
Yeah, that's why I don't like it.
It's the authentic and youcompletely you took it apart and
you figured out exactly whatI've been espousing for years
now is like I just don't like it.
It brings off the wrong energy.
It's very similar to somethingthat I talk about as well.
That is very important, andthat is this has got me into

(45:10):
some trouble in the past withsome 12 step programs.
I will not ever say hi, I'mMassimo, I'm an alcoholic.
No, I'm not.
I'm not an alcoholic.
I've overcome that.
I am better than that.

Michael Devous (45:24):
I'm 100% there.
I'm 100% with you there.
I don't walk around saying I'ma drug addict, I don't do drugs
anymore, I stopped doing drugs,I'm beyond doing drugs.
In fact, I'm on the other sofar on the other side of it that
it doesn't even occur to me toeven be bothered with that
anymore, because I've changed atthe core of who I am.
I don't need to keep walkingthat path and bringing it up

(45:46):
every single time.
I tell a story, because that'sno longer my story.
It is part of a journey thatI've been on, certainly, and
that's a roadside you can goback and look at, but it isn't
where I'm headed and it isn'twho I am today.
You know what I'm saying, soI'll kind of with you on that
one.

Massimo Rigotti (46:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, what it is is it's anaffirming statement.
You know we spend this time.
You're going into a program andyou're supposed to believe that
you're powerless over asubstance.
Well, that's not helpful, right?
Because at the same time,you're powerless over something.
You're supposed to have thestrength to overcome it.
The two are coming at eachother from different directions.

(46:24):
It is never gonna work in yourmind.

Michael Devous (46:27):
But I think that's why they ask us to
relinquish that authority to Godof our understanding, or a
higher power, as they say,because for some reason, I
suppose that that byrelinquishing the authority and
the power of the drug addiction,because you were powerless to
control it, by giving that overto an entity that is bigger than
you, you are now relieved ofthe responsibility of what?

(46:50):
Of changing, of taking steps,because you're not responsible.
Clearly you've proven that andyou can't manage your life.
You know, because that's whatwe're saying.

Massimo Rigotti (47:00):
Exactly, and so I understand the premise, yes,
but in practice I don't believethat it does.
I'm a man of faith, so I'mspeaking that that's important.
However, I think, as a matterof practice in one's own being,
you have to have the innerstrength within you to recognize

(47:22):
that, hey look, you're the onecausing these issues.
You are the one that has thestruggle.
You can overcome it.

Michael Devous (47:29):
Well, you had the power to get here.
You had the power to create thesituation.
That means you own.
If you own it 100% instead ofrelinquishing it, I mean
literally own it, taking full,100% responsibility for every
step and every problem and everydeath and every incident hurt
that you've done, then then, andonly then, can you then affect

(47:50):
the power to change it.
If you're giving it away toevery single person, if you're
giving it away to this programand you're giving away to that
person who's helping you or thatperson who's doing it or
whatever it is, and you're notowning it 100%, how do you then
take ownership of your sobrietyand your recovery?
How do you take ownership ofthe next step on your journey
when it's given to everybodyelse, right?

(48:12):
That part I never understood.

Massimo Rigotti (48:14):
Yeah, well, I mean, you sound like a disciple
of my program.

Michael Devous (48:18):
I love it, I mean like you're totally nailing
it out here and, speaking ofthe program, ladies and
gentlemen here at the Felix Roadpodcast, talking to Massimo
Ragotti, who's new book, theFlavors of Confidence, tell me
the sub title Sober method.
Sober method, which is thesecond version, by the way,
that's out now available onAmazon and other fine retailers.
Please pick it up and get itand then join the conversation,

(48:41):
cause I think you're gonnadiscover a lot of interesting
things about not only yourself,but the journey that you can
take in terms of discoveringwhat confidence really means.
And for those of us out here whosuffer from fear of judgment,
from competition, fromcomparison disease, or if you're
always comparing yourself toother people, or if you have

(49:03):
imposter syndrome and you doubtyour own self worth and self
value, flavors of Confidenceshows you, in several steps, how
you can begin to gain that backand take it back underneath
your own wings and be the onethat flies and be the one that
carries yourself through andinto any situation that comes
forward.

(49:23):
So, massimo, take us throughsome of the other challenges
that in the book, specificallybecause we could get many
tangents on your life, thestreets and what you've done as
an entrepreneur.
The journey that you've had isincredible.
How does Flavors of Confidencethe method?
How does it help otherentrepreneurs currently where

(49:44):
they're at?
What can they do and get fromthe book that they didn't get
from the first one?

Massimo Rigotti (49:49):
Oh, absolutely.
So.
The most important thing thatyou're gonna get out of this is
finding yourself.
This is a tool book, or this isa workbook that you can take
and really apply to any life.
You don't have to be an addictfor this book to be an
incredible impact on your life,because the basis of all of this
starts with Stoic, which is theS.

(50:10):
So Stoic stands for StoicObserve, behavior, execute and
Restore and it works like aprocess improvement plan, like
the Deming Cycle for those ofyou out there in manufacturing.
So you're completing a step,you're going around, you're
working through it and you comeback and then you take another
step in your improvement process.

(50:30):
One of the most important thingsfor those that are addicts is
that I'm not coming out here inthe process and saying you need
to go cold turkey.
I don't think that that issomething that is doable by a
lot of people.
Quitting smoking by cold turkeydoes not work very often, nor
does drinking, nor does doingdrugs.
It's a lot easier to makemeasurable gains in your

(50:52):
progress by making measurablegains in your psychology.
How am I thinking about things?
Am I improving my mood?
Am I improving the way that Ireflect on each day and you'll
find, by going through theprocess where you're observing
what you're doing, you'reremapping your behavior, you're
then executing.
In that step, you're measuringwhat you have mapped out in your

(51:15):
observation and your behaviorchange, and by doing that you're
able to very quickly see oh,that's not working.
I need to go back and change alittle bit of something here
that I'm doing in my behaviorand maybe I should cut this
person out of my life.
And if I do that, then okay,look, that adjustment made this
change.
Now I only want two drinks aday, okay.
So I mean, I'm boiling it downvery into a very, very simple

(51:40):
but just in order to get thepoint across that I think it's
very important that yourimprovement doesn't have to come
all at once.

Michael Devous (51:48):
But we're living in this for time, yes, and I
think we're living in this worldof iterative generation, change
, right, Incremental iterativechange for both our products and
services.
Why not for our leadershiptraining in our companies?
Why not for our development,internal development, culturally

(52:10):
speaking, for the corporationand the company, as well as our
personal right.
So if we were taking a verypragmatic view of this and which
is what you do you break itdown for us in these steps and
you, you create this sort ofiterative cycle for us to take a
look at and journal and andwrite down.
Once we get from here to hereand we look at the changes that
need to be nith, we take areflexive look back and we go.

(52:30):
Is it working?
Is that step?
And, by the way, one of thethings I talked when I was first
starting out making thispodcast and developing the
concept for this podcast, whichis talking about the
entrepreneurship journey, I feellike too many people claim that
stake of entrepreneurshipwithout giving credit to those
of us who are on the journey,who deny you the right to the

(52:51):
title because you haven't made amillion dollars, right?
So to me, this is part ofrecognizing every step you take
in the direction of your heartand the direction of your
mission and the direction ofyour authenticity is a reward.
It is.
It should be recognized andvalued and as a success.
Those little steps are majorsuccesses.

(53:13):
Nobody got to the top of themountain jumping to it.
You stepped all the way up thatmountain and every step was no
less valuable than the one thatcame before right, so you can't
compare them and say, oh, thatwas a better step than that one.
No, did you get to the top ofthe mountain?
Then great, every step thosefeet took, every single stumble
that you made, is a valuablepart of the journey that got you

(53:33):
there.
And I think your pragmatic viewcould be very valuable to
leadership, executive leadership, especially in these training
programs, and culture,especially culture shifts at
corporations, by looking at itfrom this angle.

Massimo Rigotti (53:47):
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean anything that you want
to improve about yourself.
This is the perfect way tobring out your unique flavor of
confidence.
That's the whole point of thebook.
Yes, Sure, I'm out here talkingabout sobriety, because it's
near and dear to my heart andobviously it has impacted me in
a large way.
But what is so interesting?

(54:07):
From my first book, I received aletter from a reader that told
me that they had used my methodwhich is only like 12 pages in
the back of the last book asopposed to this very detailed
book that I just wrote and theyhad used it to help with their
device addiction, and thathonestly blew my mind a little
bit because I had not stopped tothink about them.
The power of the system that Ihad created could literally help

(54:30):
anybody find an improvement intheir life if they were focused
on the reflective aspect and theincremental improvement that
they can make.
So and again this ties backinto the fake it until you make
it.
Yeah, you don't need to fake ituntil you make it.
You just need to make it alittle bit and then look and say
, hey, look, I'm doing better.

Michael Devous (54:50):
Well, it's interesting that you say that,
because I was just thinking thisactually taps into one of the
diseases that all of us have,which is we all get to the same.
All of us have done this raiseyour hand if you haven't liar.
We get to this place in yourlife where you look, you go, oh
my god, how did I get here?
And we have our head down andwe're so busy doing the things

(55:15):
and life and everything that weforget how we got there.
And it's almost like you'retaking advantage of that little
disease of our minds that if youfocus on the little bitty steps
and you're down here just doingthe little bitty steps and go,
oh, look at that little bittystep, oh, look at that little
bitty step, oh, look at thatlittle bitty step, before you
know it, when you look up,you're like holy shit, yeah, I'm

(55:35):
down here, yeah, I got up down,and you take advantage of that
little part of us.
I think that it does this inour own lives and if we put it
to use in a proper way, in apositive way, it can actually
benefit us.

Massimo Rigotti (55:50):
Absolutely.
It's those little rewards thatyou get along the way.
And of course, device addictionmay as well throw out one of
the biggest, two biggest tipsthat I've given.
I'm still working through this.
I'm going to write a third bookabout device addiction because
it seems to be something that isquite popular and I think that
maybe with some study I couldlend my hand here a little bit.

(56:13):
But I think that the sobermethod would work for it, but
maybe with some alterations alittle bit that focused in on
device.
So the two things that I wouldrecommend is one turn off all
your notifications, just turnthem off, just just turn them
off.
I know that that sounds like oh, I mean other than the phone
ringing.
Turn them off, and if you dothat you're you're going to find

(56:33):
that you're not going to grabyour phone quite as often and if
that doesn't work, to stop yourengagement.
Most smartphones have theability to turn to grayscale.
You know, turn your phone tograyscale, you'll find it pretty
boring in a hurry.

Michael Devous (56:49):
If it's not so colorful, if it's not another
piece of candy, another piece ofcandy another piece of candy.

Massimo Rigotti (56:55):
You got it.
And because every one of theseapps.
One thing that's very tellingis a statement that I heard Elon
Musk make here recently when hewas talking about X.
He didn't say that he wantedpeople to use the platform less.
Instead, he said they'redeveloping it to be the time on

(57:15):
it to be less regretful.
Okay, all these.
He didn't want you to regretyour time like you do on certain
other platforms.
Like all of these platforms outhere, all these apps are
designed to take all of them upaway your energy.
And do you ever get done likescrolling through Instagram for
two hours or tick tock for twohours and go man, I just wasted

(57:38):
my life.
I mean, I don't personally dothat, but I hear it a lot from
people and I'm 15 minutes a dayon social media and I feel like
that's a healthy relationship.
Like I feel like I've formed ahealthy relationship with my
devices, where they're toolsrather than me working for the
device.

Michael Devous (57:57):
Well, the thing about this is, with the things
that became that were anentertaining distraction have
become a focus of our work, andour sales and our marketing and
all the other aspects of ourlives are now 100% tied to what
was essentially supposed to havebeen a nice entertaining
distraction, and instead we are.

(58:21):
We are tied into them to thepoint where it was giving us
this sort of feedback loop thatwe're suffering from, but then
now we have to use it in orderto just do business.
So now we're stuck, not beingable to disassociate or take
time off from that entertainingdistraction.
We now have to be on it all thetime, and so I think what

(58:42):
you're saying is like well, youand a lot of other people are
pointing out that, establishinga time of day in your process
and your regimen and what haveyou where you give or gift
yourself a freedom from thatdistraction, from those
notifications, from that buzz,right, right, and there's a
generation of kids right now.

(59:04):
You and I are not part of that.
We grew up where we didn't havethis right.

Massimo Rigotti (59:08):
We were like I ran to the phone in the kitchen
because it was the only phone wehad.

Michael Devous (59:12):
You know well we we, we dedicated Thursday
nights for family TV.
I mean, everybody gatheredaround the sofa to watch a
program because it only came outon Thursday.

Massimo Rigotti (59:23):
Yeah, you wouldn't forward to you didn't
know if it would ever be a rerun.
Yeah, I mean like what's arerun, what's?

Michael Devous (59:29):
a rerun.
Who's got that, you know?
Where do we, you know?
And, by the way, at the time,reruns were really bad
television, exactly.
So, yeah, I think you know we,we look forward to the
distractions that were availableto us, because we only got them
once in a while.
We didn't have it inundatingour brains and our psyche and
our energy all of the time.

(59:50):
So I'm curious, what ishappening, like with your book
specifically is probably goingto address some of this, but
with this generation and thenext generation and then the one
the millennials and the Zs, whoI think are suffering from this
, this constant barrage of dataand feedback loop from these
devices, where they don't escapethere is no time off for them

(01:00:14):
from this world and ofelectronic feedback, you know,
stimuli what else can they getfrom your?
Is there a chapter in your bookthat talks about this
specifically or addresses that?

Massimo Rigotti (01:00:27):
Yeah, it was a late ad at the end.
I actually have a.
I added a chapter at the end ofthe book right before I was
headed to publish.
I pulled it back and I decidedI was gonna add a chapter on
device addiction.
It's actually the name of thechapter is device addiction is
real.
I want to make sure it's clearto everybody that this is a real

(01:00:47):
thing and we really need toaddress it and find a way to
have a very you're very correctin what you said.
We have these devices all thetime.
They're used for business andin those generations they grew
up going through middle school,high school, college, constantly
attached to them as socialdevices, and so it's very tough

(01:01:08):
possibly for them to break that.
Oh well, my social is just oneicon away from my email that I
were replying my boss on, and toslip into that and the next
thing you know, they've wasted10 minutes at work.
And that can be avoided againby just having notifications
like the icon notificationsturned off.

(01:01:28):
If you don't see the little 10or 99 sitting on your, your
TikTok, you're like I'm probablynot gonna open it because
nothing's going on.
There's something in your brainthat connects and says if I
don't see that, then I know thatthere's nothing going on.
I mean, what's weird is thatyour brain does know there's
something going on but you don'thave that dopamine release of

(01:01:49):
like I'm gonna get a littledopamine if I see that 99 go to
zero, you know.

Michael Devous (01:01:53):
Well, one of the things I'm worried about or I
should say that I'm concernedabout a little bit here is that
this generation, so much oftheir identity, is tied to the
device, meaning that they grewup developing an identity,
developing a persona, developingthe things you and I developed

(01:02:16):
through expectation ofperformance to other people,
changing who we are in order tofit in, doing all those
different things and thenultimately developing addictions
as a result of filling thathole in that gap.
We didn't have our identitytied to a social media persona,
we didn't have our identity tiedto a digital device, and I

(01:02:36):
wonder what they're gonna end upwithin their 40s and 50s when
so much of who they are is tiedto this device and all the
things that they've used it for.
When you and I can put it downand walk away, we know what that
means when we go.
This isn't me.
You know what I'm saying.
It doesn't represent me.

(01:02:57):
It's a piece of work and stuffthat I use at the tool.
We could say that withconfidence.
Thank you, flavors ofconfidence about these devices.
We could go turn it off.
I don't want to hear from it,but they don't have that
identity.
They don't have that space oftime when they were somebody
else without it.
Do you know what I mean?

Massimo Rigotti (01:03:18):
I do know what you mean and I think that's why
it's very important that thosethat don't have addictions, that
are in that in thosegenerations, especially those
that are pushing into their 30s,that they really look at it.
If it's not sober method, thatit needs to be something else,
because, building themselves,most of them have very low

(01:03:39):
confidence in their ability tostand without their device in
their hand.
Take it away from them Withouttheir device in their hand.
That's how dependent so many ofthem are and that's a that's a
scary thing.
So, basically, what happens isthat that social media, like
that's already a persona.

(01:03:59):
It's no different than what Idid by putting on that mask and
not knowing who I was.
Yes, I would argue that a lotof this occurs in them as well,
except it's been delayed by manymore years, because they can
keep up that social personaprobably until their early to
mid 30s, and then they're goingto be very challenged to keep up
with the generation below themand then they're gonna find

(01:04:22):
themselves undeveloped, as islike who am I?
Yes, I think that that'salready beginning to happen,
because I hear it sometimes withsome of my younger friends I
don't really know who I am.
How can you not know who youare?

Michael Devous (01:04:35):
You're 25 years old, but we vote and we didn't
have that distraction, we didn'thave this alter ego through a
device, that that we couldvicariously live through or
exist through, that we thoughtwas giving us some kind of value
or worth, right, and then forthat to go away, for that to be
challenged at a certain point inyour development and I'm not

(01:04:57):
talking early, I'm talking bythe time you get 30, something
like you know, when you start tochange and you're no longer
youthful and you're no longerthe top and you're no longer
whatever the those things arethat those algorithms treat you
and reward you with right.
Well, fuck that, fuck thosealgorithms.
Because, by the way, we all gethere, ladies and gentlemen, you
all get older.
Yeah, I'll get wrinkles, we allget on this side of it and the
algorithms don't care about us.

(01:05:18):
No, they don't want to hearfrom us.
Well, guess what Life exists onthe other side of the algorithm
?

Massimo Rigotti (01:05:24):
Life is better on the other side of the
algorithm.

Michael Devous (01:05:27):
Freedom.
There's a little freedom there.
You know what I mean.
That's right.
They're gonna.
They're gonna need this book.
They're gonna need someguidance and some steps to like
navigate how to get beyond thephone.
You know what I mean.

Massimo Rigotti (01:05:39):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And how to?
That comes right back into ithow to be confident with who
they are, discovering who theyreally are and and who they are
is framed up by whatever personathat has existed since they
were a teenager on theirInstagram or their TikTok, and
and that is a very tough thingto uphold you change.

(01:06:01):
You change a lot in your early20s.
I mean, I know both of us havechanged a lot over over our
lifetimes.
I feel sometimes like I'velived at least two times and I'm
on my third right now Five.
Like for me it's like five orsix, yeah, exactly yeah, you
know, yeah, so that they're inthis really extended period of
trying to interact with theworld in a way, and a lot of

(01:06:24):
them are doing it without havingany addiction, but their
addiction is actually thatdevice.
They're addicted to the persona, yeah, which isn't even really
them.

Michael Devous (01:06:32):
Yeah so it's.

Massimo Rigotti (01:06:33):
It's really something interesting.
Like I said, I'm diving into itbecause Talk about a Poster
syndrome.
Yeah, yeah, I have a lot of.
I have a lot of empathy forthese individuals and I really
want to figure it out because Ithink they're gonna need help as
they cross that, cross that.

Michael Devous (01:06:53):
Well, I agree with you and I think you know
what the Fearless Road podcastis here to help ladies and
gentlemen, whether you're on theentrepreneurial journey or
whether you're fake it till youmake it journey, or whether
you're trying to find your ownconfidence journey.
By the way, it's a journey.
All of us are on it.
We all stumble on this road andwe all try to find our own way

(01:07:13):
and our own path to authenticity.
And let me tell you, getting toyour authentic self and living
your authentic self is really ablessing.
And Massimo Ragotti, with ustoday, flavors of confidence.
It is a guide and and he is abeacon of light to help you get
there.
Please pick up this book,please find him.

(01:07:33):
And where can they find you?
On your social media.
What channels can they get you?

Massimo Rigotti (01:07:36):
on.
They can find me on socialmedia and I'll go ahead and
announce on your podcast becauseby the time this drops it will
be out there.
But I am starting my ownchannel on all the socials.
It is sober method.
You can find me there.
You can find me there.
I'm gonna be doing snippets,daily reminders.
We're gonna have sober Monday'sand execution Thursday's and

(01:08:03):
we're gonna get through theprogram together with tips and
tricks and and and help everyoneout there who is that wants to
make a change, that wants toimprove who they are and who
they see in the mirror and andhave the confidence to walk into
any room and know they aretheir own person.
I think that that strength, ifI can, if I can give that to

(01:08:23):
just a few hundred people, thatwould be an amazing thing for me
to leave behind in this world,but I really hope that it's far
more than a few hundred.
I hope.

Michael Devous (01:08:32):
I think it's going to make an impact,
absolutely, and we're here forit 100%.
The Fairless Road is gonna beright behind you.
We're gonna be following andpaying attention and walking
along this path with you and, ofcourse, I'm gonna be picking up
the new book so that I can getcaught up on this as well.
And if you need any advice, youguys want to listen in, you
want to call in, you want tolike, you know text at mention.

(01:08:52):
Whatever you need to do, we arehere to help you find your
Fearless Road, whether you're anentrepreneur, whether you're a
business person or whetheryou're just starting out in this
world and you'd like to putdown that device and and gain
some confidence at findingyourself.
This is the journey.
This is the path.
With us today at the FearlessRoad podcast is Massimo Ragotti,

(01:09:13):
his new book, the flavors ofconfident a sober method is out
now and it's in.
It's going to be on a newchannel which is going to be
amazing.
So thank you, massimo, so muchfor coming and joining me again
and being a part of this journeywith me on the Fearless Road.
I hope to talk to you again andand get to some like other side
of these things and discoverand talk a little bit about your
journey when you were on yourroad or, as we called, the

(01:09:37):
street.
There were some interestingstories that we didn't get to
cover in today's episode, butperhaps Massimo will come back
and share them with us again.
Ladies and gentlemen, let'sthank Massimo Ragotti for
joining us today and please beconfident in your life and
yourself.
You're worth every singlemoment of it.
Believe that.

(01:09:57):
And what do we say?
Stay Fearless.
Hey guys, thanks for listeningto the Fearless Road podcast.
If you like what you hear andyou love what you see, remember
to like and subscribe.
And if you're interested inMassimo's book, the flavors of
confidence, the sober method,make sure you pick it up today
at amazoncom.
I will put the links below bye.