October 4, 2024 • 42 mins
In this 2nd part of The Fearless Road Podcast, what if you could transform your pain into a source of strength? Best-selling author and professional speaker Santou Carter joins us on this episode of the Dive deeper into the entrepreneurial journey with Santou Carter, multi-award-winning therapist and international bestselling author, on Part 2 of this Fearless Road Podcast. Explore the profound impact of early childhood experiences on shaping resilience and the ability to overcome adversity. Santou shares her personal story as a child war refugee, highlighting the challenges of navigating loss, confusion, and the struggle to be understood – feelings many entrepreneurs grapple with when facing setbacks.
This episode also delves into the power of honesty and self-compassion in the face of grief. Learn how embracing vulnerability and communicating authentically, even during difficult times, can strengthen your integrity and attract a community that resonates with your values. Santou emphasizes the importance of prioritizing self-care and setting healthy boundaries, empowering entrepreneurs to lead with authenticity and build a sustainable business and personal life.
Key Highlights:
- Early Childhood and Resilience: Santou shares her powerful story as a child war refugee, linking early life experiences to building resilience later in life.
- The Power of Community: Discover how proactive community building can provide a vital support system for entrepreneurs facing challenges.
- Discerning True Allies: Learn to identify and leverage relationships that offer genuine empathy and compassion.
- Honesty and Self-Compassion: Embrace vulnerability and communicate authentically to build integrity and attract a supportive community.
- Prioritizing Self-Care: Set healthy boundaries and prioritize self-care to navigate the emotional demands of entrepreneurship.
Quotes:
- Santou Carter: "That wound still kind of lives in me and comes up in unexpected times."
- Santou Carter: "...sometimes you can withdraw, and you can feel lonely and isolated...that's the time when you need to be proactive in reaching out to people who are understanding and going to be supportive."
- Santou Carter: "So grief kind of swings back and forth like a pendulum. Sometimes you're having dark days and low days, and then sometimes you swing out of that."
- Michael Devous: "When we use those little white lies, we're lying to ourselves...undermines our integrity, our personal integrity."
- Santou Carter: "Like attracts like. So if you're wanting someone to be kind to you, be kind to yourself, you know what that looks like."
Takeaways:
- Early childhood experiences can significantly influence an entrepreneur's resilience and ability to overcome adversity.
- Building a strong support system is crucial for navigating the challenges of the entrepreneurial journey.
- Entrepreneurs need to discern their true allies and cultivate relationships that offer genuine support.
- Honesty and self-compassion are essential for maintaining integrity and attracting a community that aligns with your values.
- Prioritizing self-care and setting boundaries are vital for achieving long-term success in business and personal life.
Supporting Links:
- Santou Carter's Website: griefsupport.co
- Free Resources: griefsupport.co/freeresources
- Contact Santou: griefsupport.co/contact
- Podcast Competition: griefsupport.co/podcast
Important Links:
- Santou Carter's Website: griefsupport.co
- Fearless Road Podcast:https://www.youtube.com/@TheFearlessRoad
- Michae
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey there, everybody, and welcome to the Fearless
Road podcast, where we exploreentrepreneurial insights,
stories and advice on embracingfear, breaking boundaries and
achieving goals on the road tosuccess.
I'm your host, michael DeVue,and after years of overcoming
obstacles and tragedy, I beganto wonder how does someone
become fearless?
(00:24):
Well, that's exactly what we'regoing to find out.
In every episode, we dive intothe lives of individuals who've
learned to turn fear into fuel,face some incredible challenges
and cultivate a fearless mindsetwhile navigating their fearless
road.
So join me for in-depthinterviews with some amazing
people where we investigate moredeeply the valleys on their
(00:45):
road to success, because thevalleys are where character is
built, foundations are laid andwhere the fearless are born.
Welcome to the Fearless RoadPodcast.
Let's jump in.
(01:08):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcomeback to the Fearless Road
podcast.
This is part two of myinterview with Santu Carter.
In part one, we briefly touchedon the concept of dynamic
diversity and how your namespecifically reflects your work
as a bridge between people andtheir healing journeys, and in
(01:28):
part two of our discussion,we're going to explore a couple
of key areas.
One is finding strength andresilience, and two is living a
full life despite loss.
So, if you will, please can youshare with us a little bit more
on your background and yourexperiences that led you to this
path in the area of loss?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah well, loss has been a theme, a major theme, in
my life since childhood, becauseI come from a family who are
genocide survivors, who aregenocide survivors and
eventually we settled into acountry where I was born and
then, five years later, when Iwas five years old, there was a
major civil war that broke outand I was a child war refugee.
(02:14):
And then we had to dislocateand move to another country, a
country where I didn't know thelanguage, and it created a lot
of confusion, loss, loss ofsecurity of my old home, loss of
(02:34):
familiarity, and it was quite astruggle.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
And so what it was I would imagine, a loss of a sense
of self, like you had youridentity just barely and then
all of a sudden it was tied toall these things.
Right as we enter the worldthrough the lens of our
caretakers, our parents and ourspaces, we forget that we
immediately begin to identifythe world around us, to
(03:02):
ourselves, and that begins tosay, oh, I am this thing and
this person here in this space,and that's suddenly ripped away.
I can't imagine how jarringthat must feel.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
It's like the death of a loved one, really, because
you're searching for somethingfamiliar and it's not there.
It's very much like a death andI know I struggled in the first
several years.
I don't know how many years Istruggled, but I was in primary
school or elementary school whenI arrived in the country and
(03:37):
those first few years werereally hard because I could
barely speak, I could notunderstand others and I couldn't
be understood.
Now there is something there.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I couldn't be understood.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Uh, and that's something I hear from grievers
all the time.
They don't understand.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
They judge me, they don't understand.
You know that that theme ispretty large.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
In one's life.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, communicating what we need.
Feeling unmoored and untetheredfrom your own sense of who you
are and what you know, whenpeople don't get you, can be
terrifying, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, it feels devastating, yeah, it's.
Yeah, it is, it is, it isreally hard, and that it's yeah,
it is, it is, it is really hardand that and I you know I was
reflecting earlier today thatthat wound still kind of lives
in me and comes up in unexpectedtimes.
So even now as an adult, whenI'm confused or can't
(04:57):
communicate or can't beunderstood, those old feelings
come up, like from when I was achild, and they come up suddenly
and I may sometimes burst intotears from frustration.
Feelings come up like from whenI was a child and they come up
suddenly and I may sometimesburst into tears from
frustration.
And you know that's like grief,that it sort of surfaces and
comes up unexpectedly in theform of tears or, yeah,
(05:18):
frustration, anger, all sorts ofemotions really.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
How well, let's say, let's go from.
That was your early childhood.
Can I ask where you were arefugee from?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Lebanon.
The country was Lebanon, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
What country were you moved to?
Was it America?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Oh, where did I move to?
No, it was Canada.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Oh, canada.
Well, at least among nicepeople, I mean, the Canadians
are, if anything, they're verynice people.
I mean, compared to Americans,we tend to be a bit harsh.
I imagine our environment isnot as friendly or welcoming.
Did you find that to besomething you compared to
(06:08):
because you came from Canada tohere?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Well, you have to remember that when I moved to
Canada, I was amongst childrenand I didn't dress the same, I
didn't have the same accent, andchildren can be quite
judgmental.
They're not always the mostgracious when you're in school.
So, yeah, I didn't have theeasiest time when I first
(06:35):
started.
By the time I got to highschool, it was okay.
Things had leveled out.
I picked up the Canadian accentand I sounded like everyone
else and, yeah, it was okay.
It was better in high school andI really made an effort to
reach out and make friends, makeclose, good friends.
So I was proactive, in kind ofcreating a community that was
(06:57):
accepting of me.
And that's something that Iwant to say about those who are
grieving that sometimes you canwithdraw and you can feel lonely
and isolated and your supportnetwork might be gone, and
that's the time it's hard, butthat's the time when you need to
be proactive and reaching outto people who are understanding
(07:17):
and going to be supportive.
So that's that's important,that that you can't just wait
for other people to reach out.
Sometimes the one that's hadthe loss has to do the reaching
out.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
When we're in that space and I'll say this, as
entrepreneurs, not just as anormal human, Normal human Like
entrepreneurs are super humansor something, but I mean, I
suppose they are in some ways.
You know, they tackle things ona regular basis that most
individuals would just be likeno, thank you, I'm not going to
(07:56):
go down that path, Mainlybecause we invite it.
You know, as entrepreneurs, weinvite additional struggle,
obstacles, challenges by puttingourselves, our dreams, our
ambitions out there in the world.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
But there's a part of us, I think, that wants to
minimize and compartmentalizesome of those struggles, and so,
when the very thing that weneed to do is to reach out, what
we end up doing is sort ofputting it aside, sort of giving
it, going like in a little tidylittle box and saying you don't
want to get to you later.
I've really got some importantthings to deal with, and we get
(08:32):
very good at piece dividingourselves up into the parts that
can deal with specific thingsat specific times, and so,
eventually, what we'vediscovered is the very thing
that we needed to do originally.
We've put off for so long.
I think you mentioned beforepart of my problem was shoving
(08:52):
the little red ball down underthe water until it finally just
explodes and it can't take thepressure anymore.
How do you help us come toterms with the fact that what we
probably need to do is bring itto the surface and ask for that
help?
What can we do to identify thatvery need or that very moment,
(09:18):
when maybe that is the thingthat is stopping us from
progressing and we're not awareof it?
Right, we've trained ourselvesnot to be.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I think the best advice that I would say for that
is to really discern who is onyour side, in a sense, who
offers compassion towards you,who offers compassion towards
(09:50):
you.
So family and friends that weused to have may not be the most
supportive anymore once you'veexperienced a significant loss,
and so you have to become reallydiscerning.
It's almost like fine tuningyour antenna to know who to
reach out to that's appropriatefor this particular stage in
your life.
So the grief stage, theintensity stage and I would also
(10:14):
say that there are people soondiscover that there are
different types of friends andthere might be there might be
good friends or there might be afriend that was really good
friends in the past, and thenall of a sudden they become
either illiterate or judgmentalabout your grief and go are you
(10:34):
still grieving?
Like can't you get over it?
And when they say things likethat, it doesn't mean oh, these
people don't understand anything, I'll just cut them out of my
life, like it's tempting to cutthem out.
But what you can discern isthat this friend just wants the
good times, they just want to behappy and positive, and so you
(11:00):
can reach out to them whenyou're in a good place.
So grief kind of swings back andforth like a pendulum, right?
Sometimes you're having darkdays and low days and then
sometimes you swing out of thatand for your you know, I don't,
I don't know an hour a day,depending on the person.
When you're on the upswing,that's the friend that you you
contact, say, want to go to amovie or want to go for a walk
(11:21):
in the park, right, and you'lllearn not to contact them when
you're in your dark space.
And you find other friends thatyou can contact when you're in a
low space or a dark space,right, who will be there for you
, giving you the hugs and justthe quiet that you might need,
the silence that you might needand or a meal that you might
need.
So it's having to learn who toreach out to and when, because
(11:48):
our emotions can be all over theplace when you're grieving and
in loss.
So it's about learning,learning what feeling you have
and who the best person would be.
It's kind of like having atoolbox and knowing which tool
to use for the right job.
Right.
So you have to pick and choosethe right tool you know for
(12:13):
different projects and in thatsense, that's what you need to
do with friends as well Pick andchoose who the right person is
to connect with for the emotionthat you're feeling.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yes, I mean, I don't know that we I'm sure that we do
, on some level, identify ourfriends and the people around us
as that individual.
You know that.
Well, that's the.
That's the person I go to forthis.
That's the person.
We may not say it specificallyin those words, but we know
because our filters haveidentified who we turn to when
we want fill in the blank.
(12:44):
Our filters have identified whowe turn to when we want fill in
the blank and I'm curious, ifthere's, if you could suggest
for us when, a when a bigtragedy happens, a moment bigger
than than the usual challengesthat we normally will face, and
we can call that death of aloved one.
We can call that the loss of afriend or a relative or a loved
one, and that doesn'tnecessarily have to mean death.
(13:06):
We could lose them in a numberof different ways.
Is there a set of like three orfour things we can do, steps we
can take to give ourselves apause, Like when those things
happen?
You know, one of the things Ihad to be reminded from a friend
was hey, take a step, Take astep back for just a second and
(13:27):
assess.
This has happened.
You deserve this.
It's time to reflect what doyou need?
Like I was pushing, pushing,pushing, you know, my brain
going forward.
The fires were a prime examplewhere this big thing had taken
place and I was in the go go, gofix, repair help mode and I
(13:49):
hadn't stopped to ask myselfwhat do you need, who can you
get it from and how are youfeeling?
Or maybe it's how are youfeeling?
What do you need?
Who can get it from One ofthose things?
And is there a thing we can dofor ourselves?
You know, they have thattherapy where they're like tap,
tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap,tap.
Mine's more like slap, slap,slap, wake up.
(14:11):
You need, you might need totake a minute and look around,
because you're the only one notpaying attention to what's going
on, you know, and you're you.
You got to take a moment, and Ithink a lot of us, I'm sure, do
that, because being busy feelsvaluable.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there's huge pressurefrom society to constantly be
productive, right?
So, there are times when it'slegitimately okay not to be
productive all the time aretimes when it's legitimately
okay not to be productive allthe time.
And the other thing I wanted tosay was sometimes and you know
(14:52):
I'm trying not to make asweeping statement and make
comments about genders, butsometimes women are socialized
to be constantly giving,constantly looking out for other
people, caring about theirneeds.
I mean, men can be like thattoo.
Men can be great caregivers.
Um, so it's looking out for.
(15:17):
If your personality naturallyleans towards caring for
everyone else, you may still tryto care for other people in
your grief.
That's the moment that you stepback.
When you have experienced amajor loss or a major stress in
your life, it's okay to sayactually, I need to step back
(15:38):
and start caring for myself,because it's going to be hard to
find people who are going to beconstantly there caring for you
.
It's going to be hard for youto articulate your needs.
So, for example, if someoneasks you in your grief, what do
you need, your mind is going togo blank.
You're not going to answer.
It's not going to come easilyor naturally to say, oh, I need
(16:03):
someone to do the groceries forme.
Yes, because they don't haveanything Because, you know,
oftentimes we lose our appetiteand we just don't care.
We don't care if we're eatingor not.
And we don't care if we'reeating healthily or not, and so
it can be very hard at thatmoment to kind of ask for help,
(16:25):
because we're always giving,giving, giving, always giving,
giving, giving.
And for anyone who's listening,who might be in that boat, who
might be kind of observingsomeone who's grieving and not
knowing what to do, I wouldsuggest don't ask them what they
need, just give them the basics.
So, for example, show up attheir door with a basket of food
(16:48):
or groceries, or cook them ameal and say are you going to be
home at this day, in this time?
Great, you could surprise themand just show up when you know
that they're going to be homeand say here you go.
I made an extra pan of lasagnafor you.
You know something like that.
So yes.
(17:08):
Yeah, I don't know if thatcomfort food never hurts.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I mean, there's a reason why people bring up tons
of it to funerals.
You know it's.
It's so true is that thegesture of something homemade
first of all, is specificallyfor me.
My mother was a big food person.
We cooked in the kitchen and wecelebrated with food.
(17:34):
It was her love language, wasmaking food for her family and
serving them, and she was anamazing cook, studied all kinds
of different kinds of cookingmethods and different kinds of
flavor profiles, from Mexican toChinese to Indian, you name it.
So we always had a verycolorful palette.
We're introduced to a verycolorful palette, and so for me,
(17:54):
celebrating in the kitchen andbeing in that space is a very
natural thing for me.
So when someone brings me a dish, a homemade dish, it's a love
gesture that really touches me.
But I also know that whenyou're in that space and that
crisis mode and that grief mode,you're not hungry, but you will
(18:16):
be, and it's probably going tobe, not at the normal times of
the day, but maybe at 2.30 inthe morning after you've had a
really severe cry and you can'tseem to get back to sleep.
And you open that refrigeratordoor and there's that lovely
little thing of lasagna orwhatever that somebody had.
Just you know chicken, tandoorior something in your life and
(18:36):
you just eat.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And you're fed and that's such a nice thing, and I
think we forget that.
We want to ask what do you need?
But just providing them with anice dish is a big move.
It's a nice gesture, it's easyto do too, you know, yeah, and
it's If you're a good cook.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah, or buy it, you know, or have a restaurant or a
fast food place deliver it totheir home right.
Well, we had our friend.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yes, yes, we had a family recently that we were
helping through their grief andwe were there in Texas.
We're here and we couldn't justdeliver.
So what we did?
We got them an Instacart order.
And we just said hey, here's,you know, $500 on Instacart.
Get whatever your family needsthis week.
(19:31):
If you need more, let us know,we'll put more in there.
You can order anything and haveit delivered.
We know you can't get from thehouse, for whatever reason.
Please take advantage of this.
They were so grateful becausethey could order anything.
Suddenly they were out oftoilet paper.
You know, suddenly they wereout of toilet paper and you know
the effort to just leave thehouse just to go get basic
(19:54):
supplies was not something thatthey felt they could even manage
at this juncture.
So being able to just go ontheir phone and order it and
have it delivered without eventhinking about it was a relief
for them too, absolutely.
(20:15):
Yeah, I want to explore a fewother things.
There's an importance oftalking about empathy and
compassion, which we'vementioned previously and we
touched on that, but I want togo into vulnerability.
I mentioned before thatvulnerability was like I think
of it as a superpower, andliving a life, a full life,
despite loss, requires anunderstanding of your
(20:38):
vulnerability, transitioning andpivoting from a life of loss
and tragedy and using this toadapt and adopt a different
perspective, but also maintain asense of vulnerability
(20:59):
throughout the entire process,while embracing others.
Can you walk us through alittle bit about that?
How did you get through andfrom these tragic moments and
then now you're delivering it asa service to other people?
Was there a time in your lifewhere that didn't make sense and
all of a sudden you woke up andwere like this is what I can do
, or have you always been givingback?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I think there was a pivotal moment in my life,
(21:57):
no-transcript and it wasn'tuntil, you know, I was caring
for her for months until shepassed, because she knew it was
terminal and she wasn't going torecover from it.
And it wasn't until afterwardsthat I realized that this is the
work that I wanted to do toserve people and particularly to
(22:20):
support children.
So I did so.
I went and that thatfive-year-old girl was just
lovely, I really liked her and,um, I then started, then started
.
You know, I trained in, I didmy master's and I started
working with young people forquite some time to be able to
(22:42):
support them.
Because I know you say the wordvulnerable who is most
vulnerable than children?
Right?
So I started working with thevulnerable and the elderly as
well, but I focus mostly onchildren, which I just love
their energy, I love the joy andI love their vulnerability and
(23:10):
really helping them find of 26,.
I started serving in the bestway I knew how, in whatever ways
that I could, whatevercircumstances that they were
going through.
So it started.
Young, most people aren't acarer at the age of 12 of
someone with terminal illness,aren't a carer at the age of 12
(23:35):
of someone with terminal illness.
So I was really thrown into thedeep end to care for someone
who was vulnerable.
But I really enjoyed it.
I mean it was a beautifulexperience because she was a
beautiful woman and she reallytaught me a lot about how to be
gracious and how to care forothers.
Even in the last moments of herdays, the last moments of her
(23:56):
life, she was thinking aboutother people and connecting
other people and saying, oh, youshould meet so-and-so and this
person might help you, and itwas just incredible to watch.
So, yeah, I think and I alsowant to say something else about
vulnerability.
I mean, I talked about it fromyour perspective, but I also,
(24:19):
when I hear the word vulnerable,I also think about compassion
as well, it with yourself whenyou realize that you're
vulnerable, because we all arevulnerable at certain points in
our time, in our life.
You know, sometimes we'restrong and sometimes we're not,
sometimes we collapse, sometimeswe're, you know, at a loss
(24:44):
really, and collapsed, and we'revulnerable in that moment to
being judged, to beingcriticized, because no one likes
to see other people who areweak and helpless.
Come on, get up, keep going,keep being productive.
There's that mantra of keepgoing, fight, fight, fight to
(25:06):
survive and keep going, but whenpeople are vulnerable, or
having what I call a duvet day,where duvet is you know, what I
mean like a blanket day, wherethey just want to hide under the
blanket the whole day in bed.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
I've had myself some duvet days, don't you worry.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
And that's okay.
And I want to say somethingabout having compassion for
yourself when you're vulnerable,because it is normal, it will
happen.
And by self compassion I don'tnecessarily mean self pity, I
mean just caring for yourself,like saying it's okay, you know
(25:46):
what today, and I and I say this, and I encourage people to say,
say this to others I'm having agrieving day today.
I'm going to be okay tomorrow,but today I'm having a grieving
day and I'm going to rearrangemy life to acknowledge that.
So you know, I may not be doingas much today as I might
(26:07):
another day, so I'm not going tobe as productive, I'm not going
to be meeting all mycommitments, I might cancel
things Perfectly.
Okay, you know.
Communicate that with othersand say and stand, stand in your
, in your fierce self-compassion.
You know you can like and I'veand I've written blogs about
(26:29):
this Like, if there are holidayscoming up, for example, and
people expect you to be at afamily function and you can't
cope or you just don't want togo, it's all right to cancel and
say I'm having a grieving day,you know I'm not going to be
able to make it today.
And to warn, not warn, to letpeople know ahead of time.
(26:49):
I may cancel on this day.
I'm just letting you know thatI'm going to play by ear.
I'm going to take each daymoment by moment, and if I'm
crying on a particular day and Ican't make it out the door,
that's where I'm at and to justbe strong in that and not have
(27:10):
people going, really stillyou're going to cancel.
You're still crying.
All that kind of stuff.
Put it aside because, as I say,they can't offer some people
can't offer the same level ofcompassion that you can for
yourself.
If you learn how to and it'ssuch an important skill to be
(27:31):
able to do that, to learn how tooffer yourself just some
gentleness, saying it's allright.
You know it's likeself-soothing, well, it's honor.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
I think you know, one of the things that I spoke
about a few times that struck meabout integrity is about the
promises and the love that weshow ourselves.
When we build our calendars outand we build out the things
that we're supposed to do and wecancel on ourselves, when we
(28:02):
move our time around in order toaccommodate another paying
client, when we hit the snoozeon our own lives, invariably
what we're doing is telling ourbrain and it remembers
everything every single time.
We do that I'm discounting you,I'm discounting my value, I'm
saying you're not important,you're not valuable, you can be
moved, you can be manipulated,you can be changed.
(28:24):
And in those moments when wefail to honor the part of
ourselves that truly deservesthis moment of grieving, what
are we saying to ourselves?
What scar mental andpsychological scar are we
creating in our lives when wedon't honor the part of
(28:47):
ourselves that deserves thatmoment?
I had one recently where I didalmost exactly what you said.
I had several meetings that dayand I just sent them all a
message I'm having a day and Ididn't say grieving day, but I
was like it's an emotional.
This is a really hard one forme today.
I'm so sorry, but I wish Icould tell you it was a stomach
ache or about whatever, but it'snot.
(29:08):
I just, emotionally, I'm notthere today and you deserve to
have somebody that's there forthese meetings.
I can't do it.
I will, you know.
Let's rearrange, let'sreschedule.
I really apologize.
I got so much kindness frompeople saying thank you for
sharing that vulnerability withme.
(29:28):
Of course I honor that we canreschedule whenever it's time
with me.
Of course I honor that we canreschedule whenever it's time,
and for me it's never theholidays, it's never the big
things that really show up andbother me.
It's weird moments, just randomdays where suddenly I feel like
I've been punched in the gut bymy emotions and that's probably
like you were saying my littlered balls are coming up.
(29:48):
You're, like you know, suddenlyfinding their way to the top
and popping for me.
You know, because I've gotsomething I've shoved down there
so long ago that I didn't payattention to.
And today I'm trying my best tolearn about these vulnerable
moments and honor thesevulnerable moments, but not only
honor them in the sense that Itake care of myself, but by
verbally saying to other peopleI'm honoring my need.
(30:12):
Today, I'm honoring myself bydoing this and hopefully that
helps others stand up and do itfor themselves and we can role
model in that way.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
And there's something really important here about
being honest, important hereabout being honest.
So you, you know, you recognizethat you didn't say I've got a
tummy ache or I'm feelingphysically ill, because that is
far more acceptable in societyto be physically ill than to
(30:47):
have an emotionally wonky daybut you were really honest and
they could see that transparencyand that integrity by saying
I'm having an emotional day.
We don't have to call it agrieving day, we can say I'm
having an emotional day andbecause it's so rare for someone
to be that honest and to saythat, to use that phrase and to
(31:09):
say that I think you got thatlevel of wow, you know I can
relate to this.
I've had emotional days in thepast and I can offer him that,
that kindness.
And I want to say one morething that if you or if anyone
encounters some kind ofcriticism or judgment like when
you're saying I'm not having agood day today and you, instead
(31:33):
of receiving kindness, youreceive criticism and all that I
want people to understand thatthat's about them, not about you
.
So that's about them not havingprocessed their grief and your
feelings, your intense emotionsthat are coming up is activating
their unprocessed emotions andthey don't want to feel it, so
(31:55):
they try and shut you down,because they're so used to
shutting themselves down thatthey're trying to shut you down
as well.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yes, and that's not healthy.
Yes, and I think you'retouching on something here.
Additionally, when we use thoselittle white lies, we're lying
to ourselves, we're lying aboutthe feelings we're having Right,
we're covering it up using alittle lie because it might make
somebody else feel comfortable.
(32:20):
We're doing a few things hereundermines our integrity, our
personal integrity.
Two, when we find out someonedoesn't support us, when we find
out someone isn't in alignment,when we find someone doesn't
(32:40):
respond positively supportivelyto our situation when we're
being honest.
That's valuable information toknow If you've been saving them
from responding this way becauseyou've been lying to them or
giving them an out.
You don't know if that's yourreal friend.
You have no idea if that personcan support you.
(33:02):
So eventually, down the line,when something happens and
teeters and they act in acertain way and you feel
surprised, you've deniedyourself the information you've
needed all along to make adetermination about who you need
in your life.
And you have now thatinformation to go.
Oh, thank you for letting meknow who you really are.
That's important for me.
(33:24):
I now know that I don't need togo to you for this.
I now know I don't need toshare these things with you.
I now know I can carve that outof my life and put you a little
further away if I need to,because what I want to do is
make sure I'm surrounded bypeople who do love and respect
me and have integrity andcompassion for me.
And how do we do that if we'renot being truthful with them
(33:44):
about who we are and how we feel?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, and it's almost like I'm trying to think of a
phrase, and the only phrase thatcomes to mind is birds of a
feather flock together, Right orno?
It's almost like I'm trying tothink of a phrase and the only
phrase that comes to mind isbirds of a feather flock
together, right or no?
here's a better phrase likeattracts, like.
So if you're wanting someone tobe kind to you, you know be.
When you're kind to yourself,you know what that looks like
(34:09):
and you'll know how to recognizeit in someone else.
And so I love what you said,Michael, about not just being
honest with yourself, buthonoring your feelings, so that
you can recognize when someoneelse honors your feelings, Right
.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yes, 100%.
And speaking of this, you knowfor listeners out there who are
experiencing grief, and I wantto remind you guys, if you want
Santu's help and her support,you can reach out to
griefsupportcoco and thenforward slash free resources.
I would be remiss if I didn'tmention, by the way, she also
(34:51):
has her own podcast and we wantto support her.
So if you loved listening towhat she has to say and you want
to be a supporter of the San Tu, please vote for her in the
podcast competition for women.
The link is called griefsupport G-R-I-E-F.
Grief support dot.
Co.
Forward slash podcasts andit'll be in the show notes as
(35:11):
well.
You can vote as of thisOctoberober, I believe, right
october 1st.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, that's the deadline.
Yeah, and I just want to say,in case people are looking um, I
don't have my own podcast, I'mI I'm in a competition where I'm
um, where people can vote forme as a guest expert on
podcasts's there's there's othercategories.
Yeah, there's there's othercategories of other people
(35:36):
entering the competition aspodcast hosts.
but I've entered the competitionas a guest expert, so on that
page that you've mentioned onthe pod, on my grief supportco
podcast page.
I've got lots of other podcastson there where I've been a
guest and you know people arewelcome to listen to those as
well.
I talk about loss and grief onthose as well, so you can listen
to them.
(35:56):
Uh, or, you know, if you don'thave a lot of time to listen,
you can just simply click on abutton to vote for me from
having listened to this one.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Well, I I'm going to just confess, talking to you is
like having a verbal hug.
Every time I have you on thesecalls I just feel like I'm
getting hugged every single time.
It makes me feel loved and seenand appreciated and I know
that's not easy for a lot ofpeople to just say.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
But I wanted to let you know that it really does
warm me.
I'm welling up because that'sthe nicest thing anyone has ever
said to me, certainly on apodcast, but just in general.
Wow, that's such a beautifulthing to say, it's true.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
You have an energy about you that is vibrantly
comforting for me.
I hope the listeners can hearthat through this podcast.
Do you know when they'relistening that it is just so
comforting and I love that.
I hope people will reach out toyou.
So, in that vein, would youlike to leave our listeners with
anything final that you'd liketo say before we sign off?
Speaker 2 (37:20):
sign off.
Hmm, how to distill all that Iknow in one summary sentence?
That's a tough one.
Maybe I'll say something aboutthe importance of getting early
support and the importance, Iwould say, of counseling or
therapy, and I'm not.
I think I want to say thisbecause there's a lot of people
(37:45):
out there who may callthemselves a grief coach or a
counselor.
They may have had a life, onelife experience, in the realm of
death or loss and I think theycan support others.
And I think what I want to sayis, just as you would discern
(38:06):
which family member or friendyou would disclose things, to
discern carefully whatprofessional you seek out to
support you in your grief,because grief is very complex,
there's a lot to it and there'sthere's a lot of theory that one
needs to know.
So they need to know, likegrief counselors need to know
(38:28):
about attach, or I should callthem therapists, because
counselors don't learn aboutattachment theory, they don't
learn about trauma theory, andthose two areas are really
important for someone to knowabout in order to help you in a
deep kind of way, so that you'renot leaving that counseling
session going.
That didn't really help me muchand I've just wasted all my
(38:49):
time I'm still not much betterthan I was before, and so I just
want to encourage people toreally do your due diligence in
who you reach out for, whetherthat's family, friend or a
professional.
Do your due diligence becauseyou don't.
You want to be able to moveforward and progress and to move
(39:12):
forward in a way that helps youto lift your soul and to feel
better.
And I know that I can do thatnaturally with my personality
type, but it also comesnaturally because I've been
studying it for so long.
I'm studying the greats thatcame before me and studying the
(39:35):
greats that came before me,whereas other people I've
encountered in the field haven'tstudied the greats, haven't
studied any kind of theory andthey're just kind of guessing at
how to help you and reachinginto their own experience.
And you need to have a muchbroader understanding of what's
going to help people than justwhat helped you in your own
experience of loss.
So I don't usually talk aboutthat, but I was talking about
(40:00):
that with someone else recentlyand that's what's on my heart
today and at the moment, becausepeople can really suffer in
their grief and I I just I can'tbear to see people suffering
unnecessarily because I've seenso much suffering myself.
I want to help alleviate thatas quickly and as easily as
(40:22):
possible for people.
So yeah, I've got a real heartfor lifting people out of their
suffering.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Well, you do and you have, excuse me, you have a
life's experience of bothtragedy and overcoming study and
hard work and effort andconnecting Ladies and gentlemen.
A best-selling author,professional speaker and coach
and trainer, Santu Carter.
(40:49):
You can find out moreinformation at her website,
griefsupportco.
Thank you very much for yourtime and your efforts at making
this world a better place whenit comes to grief.
If you are out there and you'relistening, if you are suffering
from something tragic, you knowwe put on these coats, we put
(41:14):
on this armor, we try to getthrough.
But please remember, be verydiligent and compassionate with
your heart.
It needs the time and the spaceand the attention to heal from
these things and you're worth itand it is very important you
find a qualified individual tohelp you get through there and
if you want that support andthat help, you can certainly
(41:35):
find it with Santu Carter, mybeautiful, beautiful guest today
on the Fearless Road podcast.
Thank you so much for whatyou've done and for everything
that you do, and much love toyou today.
Ladies and gentlemen, this hasbeen a great one.
It's been a wonderful part twowith Santu Carter.
I hope you've enjoyed it.
(41:55):
Please put your response likesubscribe, do all those
wonderful things you know downbelow, or whatever it is.
Uh, to let us know that you'veenjoyed this episode.
And if you need to find outmore, like I've said, you can go
to thefearlessroadcom.
(42:19):
Uh, you can go on YouTube orwherever and I'll put all the
links and stuff in the shownotes for you.
But this has been Santu Carteron the Fearless Road with
griefsupportco.
Thanks so much.
Thank you, michael, it's been apleasure.
You're welcome.
Hey, stay fearless.
All right, bye everybody,absolutely.
Hey there, everybody, and welcome to the Fearless
Road podcast, where we exploreentrepreneurial insights,
stories and advice on embracingfear, breaking boundaries and
achieving goals on the road tosuccess.
I'm your host, michael DeVue,and after years of overcoming
obstacles and tragedy, I beganto wonder how does someone
become fearless?
(00:24):
Well, that's exactly what we'regoing to find out.
In every episode, we dive intothe lives of individuals who've
learned to turn fear into fuel,face some incredible challenges
and cultivate a fearless mindsetwhile navigating their fearless
road.
So join me for in-depthinterviews with some amazing
people where we investigate moredeeply the valleys on their
(00:45):
road to success, because thevalleys are where character is
built, foundations are laid andwhere the fearless are born.
Welcome to the Fearless RoadPodcast.
Let's jump in.
(01:08):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcomeback to the Fearless Road
podcast.
This is part two of myinterview with Santu Carter.
In part one, we briefly touchedon the concept of dynamic
diversity and how your namespecifically reflects your work
as a bridge between people andtheir healing journeys, and in
(01:28):
part two of our discussion,we're going to explore a couple
of key areas.
One is finding strength andresilience, and two is living a
full life despite loss.
So, if you will, please can youshare with us a little bit more
on your background and yourexperiences that led you to this
path in the area of loss?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah well, loss has been a theme, a major theme, in
my life since childhood, becauseI come from a family who are
genocide survivors, who aregenocide survivors and
eventually we settled into acountry where I was born and
then, five years later, when Iwas five years old, there was a
major civil war that broke outand I was a child war refugee.
(02:14):
And then we had to dislocateand move to another country, a
country where I didn't know thelanguage, and it created a lot
of confusion, loss, loss ofsecurity of my old home, loss of
(02:34):
familiarity, and it was quite astruggle.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
And so what it was I would imagine, a loss of a sense
of self, like you had youridentity just barely and then
all of a sudden it was tied toall these things.
Right as we enter the worldthrough the lens of our
caretakers, our parents and ourspaces, we forget that we
immediately begin to identifythe world around us, to
(03:02):
ourselves, and that begins tosay, oh, I am this thing and
this person here in this space,and that's suddenly ripped away.
I can't imagine how jarringthat must feel.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
It's like the death of a loved one, really, because
you're searching for somethingfamiliar and it's not there.
It's very much like a death andI know I struggled in the first
several years.
I don't know how many years Istruggled, but I was in primary
school or elementary school whenI arrived in the country and
(03:37):
those first few years werereally hard because I could
barely speak, I could notunderstand others and I couldn't
be understood.
Now there is something there.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I couldn't be understood.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Uh, and that's something I hear from grievers
all the time.
They don't understand.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
They judge me, they don't understand.
You know that that theme ispretty large.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
In one's life.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, communicating what we need.
Feeling unmoored and untetheredfrom your own sense of who you
are and what you know, whenpeople don't get you, can be
terrifying, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, it feels devastating, yeah, it's.
Yeah, it is, it is, it isreally hard, and that it's yeah,
it is, it is, it is really hardand that and I you know I was
reflecting earlier today thatthat wound still kind of lives
in me and comes up in unexpectedtimes.
So even now as an adult, whenI'm confused or can't
(04:57):
communicate or can't beunderstood, those old feelings
come up, like from when I was achild, and they come up suddenly
and I may sometimes burst intotears from frustration.
Feelings come up like from whenI was a child and they come up
suddenly and I may sometimesburst into tears from
frustration.
And you know that's like grief,that it sort of surfaces and
comes up unexpectedly in theform of tears or, yeah,
(05:18):
frustration, anger, all sorts ofemotions really.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
How well, let's say, let's go from.
That was your early childhood.
Can I ask where you were arefugee from?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Lebanon.
The country was Lebanon, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
What country were you moved to?
Was it America?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Oh, where did I move to?
No, it was Canada.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Oh, canada.
Well, at least among nicepeople, I mean, the Canadians
are, if anything, they're verynice people.
I mean, compared to Americans,we tend to be a bit harsh.
I imagine our environment isnot as friendly or welcoming.
Did you find that to besomething you compared to
(06:08):
because you came from Canada tohere?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Well, you have to remember that when I moved to
Canada, I was amongst childrenand I didn't dress the same, I
didn't have the same accent, andchildren can be quite
judgmental.
They're not always the mostgracious when you're in school.
So, yeah, I didn't have theeasiest time when I first
(06:35):
started.
By the time I got to highschool, it was okay.
Things had leveled out.
I picked up the Canadian accentand I sounded like everyone
else and, yeah, it was okay.
It was better in high school andI really made an effort to
reach out and make friends, makeclose, good friends.
So I was proactive, in kind ofcreating a community that was
(06:57):
accepting of me.
And that's something that Iwant to say about those who are
grieving that sometimes you canwithdraw and you can feel lonely
and isolated and your supportnetwork might be gone, and
that's the time it's hard, butthat's the time when you need to
be proactive and reaching outto people who are understanding
(07:17):
and going to be supportive.
So that's that's important,that that you can't just wait
for other people to reach out.
Sometimes the one that's hadthe loss has to do the reaching
out.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
When we're in that space and I'll say this, as
entrepreneurs, not just as anormal human, Normal human Like
entrepreneurs are super humansor something, but I mean, I
suppose they are in some ways.
You know, they tackle things ona regular basis that most
individuals would just be likeno, thank you, I'm not going to
(07:56):
go down that path, Mainlybecause we invite it.
You know, as entrepreneurs, weinvite additional struggle,
obstacles, challenges by puttingourselves, our dreams, our
ambitions out there in the world.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
But there's a part of us, I think, that wants to
minimize and compartmentalizesome of those struggles, and so,
when the very thing that weneed to do is to reach out, what
we end up doing is sort ofputting it aside, sort of giving
it, going like in a little tidylittle box and saying you don't
want to get to you later.
I've really got some importantthings to deal with, and we get
(08:32):
very good at piece dividingourselves up into the parts that
can deal with specific thingsat specific times, and so,
eventually, what we'vediscovered is the very thing
that we needed to do originally.
We've put off for so long.
I think you mentioned beforepart of my problem was shoving
(08:52):
the little red ball down underthe water until it finally just
explodes and it can't take thepressure anymore.
How do you help us come toterms with the fact that what we
probably need to do is bring itto the surface and ask for that
help?
What can we do to identify thatvery need or that very moment,
(09:18):
when maybe that is the thingthat is stopping us from
progressing and we're not awareof it?
Right, we've trained ourselvesnot to be.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I think the best advice that I would say for that
is to really discern who is onyour side, in a sense, who
offers compassion towards you,who offers compassion towards
(09:50):
you.
So family and friends that weused to have may not be the most
supportive anymore once you'veexperienced a significant loss,
and so you have to become reallydiscerning.
It's almost like fine tuningyour antenna to know who to
reach out to that's appropriatefor this particular stage in
your life.
So the grief stage, theintensity stage and I would also
(10:14):
say that there are people soondiscover that there are
different types of friends andthere might be there might be
good friends or there might be afriend that was really good
friends in the past, and thenall of a sudden they become
either illiterate or judgmentalabout your grief and go are you
(10:34):
still grieving?
Like can't you get over it?
And when they say things likethat, it doesn't mean oh, these
people don't understand anything, I'll just cut them out of my
life, like it's tempting to cutthem out.
But what you can discern isthat this friend just wants the
good times, they just want to behappy and positive, and so you
(11:00):
can reach out to them whenyou're in a good place.
So grief kind of swings back andforth like a pendulum, right?
Sometimes you're having darkdays and low days and then
sometimes you swing out of thatand for your you know, I don't,
I don't know an hour a day,depending on the person.
When you're on the upswing,that's the friend that you you
contact, say, want to go to amovie or want to go for a walk
(11:21):
in the park, right, and you'lllearn not to contact them when
you're in your dark space.
And you find other friends thatyou can contact when you're in a
low space or a dark space,right, who will be there for you
, giving you the hugs and justthe quiet that you might need,
the silence that you might needand or a meal that you might
need.
So it's having to learn who toreach out to and when, because
(11:48):
our emotions can be all over theplace when you're grieving and
in loss.
So it's about learning,learning what feeling you have
and who the best person would be.
It's kind of like having atoolbox and knowing which tool
to use for the right job.
Right.
So you have to pick and choosethe right tool you know for
(12:13):
different projects and in thatsense, that's what you need to
do with friends as well Pick andchoose who the right person is
to connect with for the emotionthat you're feeling.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yes, I mean, I don't know that we I'm sure that we do
, on some level, identify ourfriends and the people around us
as that individual.
You know that.
Well, that's the.
That's the person I go to forthis.
That's the person.
We may not say it specificallyin those words, but we know
because our filters haveidentified who we turn to when
we want fill in the blank.
(12:44):
Our filters have identified whowe turn to when we want fill in
the blank and I'm curious, ifthere's, if you could suggest
for us when, a when a bigtragedy happens, a moment bigger
than than the usual challengesthat we normally will face, and
we can call that death of aloved one.
We can call that the loss of afriend or a relative or a loved
one, and that doesn'tnecessarily have to mean death.
(13:06):
We could lose them in a numberof different ways.
Is there a set of like three orfour things we can do, steps we
can take to give ourselves apause, Like when those things
happen?
You know, one of the things Ihad to be reminded from a friend
was hey, take a step, Take astep back for just a second and
(13:27):
assess.
This has happened.
You deserve this.
It's time to reflect what doyou need?
Like I was pushing, pushing,pushing, you know, my brain
going forward.
The fires were a prime examplewhere this big thing had taken
place and I was in the go go, gofix, repair help mode and I
(13:49):
hadn't stopped to ask myselfwhat do you need, who can you
get it from and how are youfeeling?
Or maybe it's how are youfeeling?
What do you need?
Who can get it from One ofthose things?
And is there a thing we can dofor ourselves?
You know, they have thattherapy where they're like tap,
tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap,tap.
Mine's more like slap, slap,slap, wake up.
(14:11):
You need, you might need totake a minute and look around,
because you're the only one notpaying attention to what's going
on, you know, and you're you.
You got to take a moment, and Ithink a lot of us, I'm sure, do
that, because being busy feelsvaluable.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there's huge pressurefrom society to constantly be
productive, right?
So, there are times when it'slegitimately okay not to be
productive all the time aretimes when it's legitimately
okay not to be productive allthe time.
And the other thing I wanted tosay was sometimes and you know
(14:52):
I'm trying not to make asweeping statement and make
comments about genders, butsometimes women are socialized
to be constantly giving,constantly looking out for other
people, caring about theirneeds.
I mean, men can be like thattoo.
Men can be great caregivers.
Um, so it's looking out for.
(15:17):
If your personality naturallyleans towards caring for
everyone else, you may still tryto care for other people in
your grief.
That's the moment that you stepback.
When you have experienced amajor loss or a major stress in
your life, it's okay to sayactually, I need to step back
(15:38):
and start caring for myself,because it's going to be hard to
find people who are going to beconstantly there caring for you
.
It's going to be hard for youto articulate your needs.
So, for example, if someoneasks you in your grief, what do
you need, your mind is going togo blank.
You're not going to answer.
It's not going to come easilyor naturally to say, oh, I need
(16:03):
someone to do the groceries forme.
Yes, because they don't haveanything Because, you know,
oftentimes we lose our appetiteand we just don't care.
We don't care if we're eatingor not.
And we don't care if we'reeating healthily or not, and so
it can be very hard at thatmoment to kind of ask for help,
(16:25):
because we're always giving,giving, giving, always giving,
giving, giving.
And for anyone who's listening,who might be in that boat, who
might be kind of observingsomeone who's grieving and not
knowing what to do, I wouldsuggest don't ask them what they
need, just give them the basics.
So, for example, show up attheir door with a basket of food
(16:48):
or groceries, or cook them ameal and say are you going to be
home at this day, in this time?
Great, you could surprise themand just show up when you know
that they're going to be homeand say here you go.
I made an extra pan of lasagnafor you.
You know something like that.
So yes.
(17:08):
Yeah, I don't know if thatcomfort food never hurts.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I mean, there's a reason why people bring up tons
of it to funerals.
You know it's.
It's so true is that thegesture of something homemade
first of all, is specificallyfor me.
My mother was a big food person.
We cooked in the kitchen and wecelebrated with food.
(17:34):
It was her love language, wasmaking food for her family and
serving them, and she was anamazing cook, studied all kinds
of different kinds of cookingmethods and different kinds of
flavor profiles, from Mexican toChinese to Indian, you name it.
So we always had a verycolorful palette.
We're introduced to a verycolorful palette, and so for me,
(17:54):
celebrating in the kitchen andbeing in that space is a very
natural thing for me.
So when someone brings me a dish, a homemade dish, it's a love
gesture that really touches me.
But I also know that whenyou're in that space and that
crisis mode and that grief mode,you're not hungry, but you will
(18:16):
be, and it's probably going tobe, not at the normal times of
the day, but maybe at 2.30 inthe morning after you've had a
really severe cry and you can'tseem to get back to sleep.
And you open that refrigeratordoor and there's that lovely
little thing of lasagna orwhatever that somebody had.
Just you know chicken, tandoorior something in your life and
(18:36):
you just eat.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And you're fed and that's such a nice thing, and I
think we forget that.
We want to ask what do you need?
But just providing them with anice dish is a big move.
It's a nice gesture, it's easyto do too, you know, yeah, and
it's If you're a good cook.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah, or buy it, you know, or have a restaurant or a
fast food place deliver it totheir home right.
Well, we had our friend.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yes, yes, we had a family recently that we were
helping through their grief andwe were there in Texas.
We're here and we couldn't justdeliver.
So what we did?
We got them an Instacart order.
And we just said hey, here's,you know, $500 on Instacart.
Get whatever your family needsthis week.
(19:31):
If you need more, let us know,we'll put more in there.
You can order anything and haveit delivered.
We know you can't get from thehouse, for whatever reason.
Please take advantage of this.
They were so grateful becausethey could order anything.
Suddenly they were out oftoilet paper.
You know, suddenly they wereout of toilet paper and you know
the effort to just leave thehouse just to go get basic
(19:54):
supplies was not something thatthey felt they could even manage
at this juncture.
So being able to just go ontheir phone and order it and
have it delivered without eventhinking about it was a relief
for them too, absolutely.
(20:15):
Yeah, I want to explore a fewother things.
There's an importance oftalking about empathy and
compassion, which we'vementioned previously and we
touched on that, but I want togo into vulnerability.
I mentioned before thatvulnerability was like I think
of it as a superpower, andliving a life, a full life,
despite loss, requires anunderstanding of your
(20:38):
vulnerability, transitioning andpivoting from a life of loss
and tragedy and using this toadapt and adopt a different
perspective, but also maintain asense of vulnerability
(20:59):
throughout the entire process,while embracing others.
Can you walk us through alittle bit about that?
How did you get through andfrom these tragic moments and
then now you're delivering it asa service to other people?
Was there a time in your lifewhere that didn't make sense and
all of a sudden you woke up andwere like this is what I can do
, or have you always been givingback?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I think there was a pivotal moment in my life,
(21:57):
no-transcript and it wasn'tuntil, you know, I was caring
for her for months until shepassed, because she knew it was
terminal and she wasn't going torecover from it.
And it wasn't until afterwardsthat I realized that this is the
work that I wanted to do toserve people and particularly to
(22:20):
support children.
So I did so.
I went and that thatfive-year-old girl was just
lovely, I really liked her and,um, I then started, then started
.
You know, I trained in, I didmy master's and I started
working with young people forquite some time to be able to
(22:42):
support them.
Because I know you say the wordvulnerable who is most
vulnerable than children?
Right?
So I started working with thevulnerable and the elderly as
well, but I focus mostly onchildren, which I just love
their energy, I love the joy andI love their vulnerability and
(23:10):
really helping them find of 26,.
I started serving in the bestway I knew how, in whatever ways
that I could, whatevercircumstances that they were
going through.
So it started.
Young, most people aren't acarer at the age of 12 of
someone with terminal illness,aren't a carer at the age of 12
(23:35):
of someone with terminal illness.
So I was really thrown into thedeep end to care for someone
who was vulnerable.
But I really enjoyed it.
I mean it was a beautifulexperience because she was a
beautiful woman and she reallytaught me a lot about how to be
gracious and how to care forothers.
Even in the last moments of herdays, the last moments of her
(23:56):
life, she was thinking aboutother people and connecting
other people and saying, oh, youshould meet so-and-so and this
person might help you, and itwas just incredible to watch.
So, yeah, I think and I alsowant to say something else about
vulnerability.
I mean, I talked about it fromyour perspective, but I also,
(24:19):
when I hear the word vulnerable,I also think about compassion
as well, it with yourself whenyou realize that you're
vulnerable, because we all arevulnerable at certain points in
our time, in our life.
You know, sometimes we'restrong and sometimes we're not,
sometimes we collapse, sometimeswe're, you know, at a loss
(24:44):
really, and collapsed, and we'revulnerable in that moment to
being judged, to beingcriticized, because no one likes
to see other people who areweak and helpless.
Come on, get up, keep going,keep being productive.
There's that mantra of keepgoing, fight, fight, fight to
(25:06):
survive and keep going, but whenpeople are vulnerable, or
having what I call a duvet day,where duvet is you know, what I
mean like a blanket day, wherethey just want to hide under the
blanket the whole day in bed.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
I've had myself some duvet days, don't you worry.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
And that's okay.
And I want to say somethingabout having compassion for
yourself when you're vulnerable,because it is normal, it will
happen.
And by self compassion I don'tnecessarily mean self pity, I
mean just caring for yourself,like saying it's okay, you know
(25:46):
what today, and I and I say this, and I encourage people to say,
say this to others I'm having agrieving day today.
I'm going to be okay tomorrow,but today I'm having a grieving
day and I'm going to rearrangemy life to acknowledge that.
So you know, I may not be doingas much today as I might
(26:07):
another day, so I'm not going tobe as productive, I'm not going
to be meeting all mycommitments, I might cancel
things Perfectly.
Okay, you know.
Communicate that with othersand say and stand, stand in your
, in your fierce self-compassion.
You know you can like and I'veand I've written blogs about
(26:29):
this Like, if there are holidayscoming up, for example, and
people expect you to be at afamily function and you can't
cope or you just don't want togo, it's all right to cancel and
say I'm having a grieving day,you know I'm not going to be
able to make it today.
And to warn, not warn, to letpeople know ahead of time.
(26:49):
I may cancel on this day.
I'm just letting you know thatI'm going to play by ear.
I'm going to take each daymoment by moment, and if I'm
crying on a particular day and Ican't make it out the door,
that's where I'm at and to justbe strong in that and not have
(27:10):
people going, really stillyou're going to cancel.
You're still crying.
All that kind of stuff.
Put it aside because, as I say,they can't offer some people
can't offer the same level ofcompassion that you can for
yourself.
If you learn how to and it'ssuch an important skill to be
(27:31):
able to do that, to learn how tooffer yourself just some
gentleness, saying it's allright.
You know it's likeself-soothing, well, it's honor.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
I think you know, one of the things that I spoke
about a few times that struck meabout integrity is about the
promises and the love that weshow ourselves.
When we build our calendars outand we build out the things
that we're supposed to do and wecancel on ourselves, when we
(28:02):
move our time around in order toaccommodate another paying
client, when we hit the snoozeon our own lives, invariably
what we're doing is telling ourbrain and it remembers
everything every single time.
We do that I'm discounting you,I'm discounting my value, I'm
saying you're not important,you're not valuable, you can be
moved, you can be manipulated,you can be changed.
(28:24):
And in those moments when wefail to honor the part of
ourselves that truly deservesthis moment of grieving, what
are we saying to ourselves?
What scar mental andpsychological scar are we
creating in our lives when wedon't honor the part of
(28:47):
ourselves that deserves thatmoment?
I had one recently where I didalmost exactly what you said.
I had several meetings that dayand I just sent them all a
message I'm having a day and Ididn't say grieving day, but I
was like it's an emotional.
This is a really hard one forme today.
I'm so sorry, but I wish Icould tell you it was a stomach
ache or about whatever, but it'snot.
(29:08):
I just, emotionally, I'm notthere today and you deserve to
have somebody that's there forthese meetings.
I can't do it.
I will, you know.
Let's rearrange, let'sreschedule.
I really apologize.
I got so much kindness frompeople saying thank you for
sharing that vulnerability withme.
(29:28):
Of course I honor that we canreschedule whenever it's time
with me.
Of course I honor that we canreschedule whenever it's time,
and for me it's never theholidays, it's never the big
things that really show up andbother me.
It's weird moments, just randomdays where suddenly I feel like
I've been punched in the gut bymy emotions and that's probably
like you were saying my littlered balls are coming up.
(29:48):
You're, like you know, suddenlyfinding their way to the top
and popping for me.
You know, because I've gotsomething I've shoved down there
so long ago that I didn't payattention to.
And today I'm trying my best tolearn about these vulnerable
moments and honor thesevulnerable moments, but not only
honor them in the sense that Itake care of myself, but by
verbally saying to other peopleI'm honoring my need.
(30:12):
Today, I'm honoring myself bydoing this and hopefully that
helps others stand up and do itfor themselves and we can role
model in that way.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
And there's something really important here about
being honest, important hereabout being honest.
So you, you know, you recognizethat you didn't say I've got a
tummy ache or I'm feelingphysically ill, because that is
far more acceptable in societyto be physically ill than to
(30:47):
have an emotionally wonky daybut you were really honest and
they could see that transparencyand that integrity by saying
I'm having an emotional day.
We don't have to call it agrieving day, we can say I'm
having an emotional day andbecause it's so rare for someone
to be that honest and to saythat, to use that phrase and to
(31:09):
say that I think you got thatlevel of wow, you know I can
relate to this.
I've had emotional days in thepast and I can offer him that,
that kindness.
And I want to say one morething that if you or if anyone
encounters some kind ofcriticism or judgment like when
you're saying I'm not having agood day today and you, instead
(31:33):
of receiving kindness, youreceive criticism and all that I
want people to understand thatthat's about them, not about you
.
So that's about them not havingprocessed their grief and your
feelings, your intense emotionsthat are coming up is activating
their unprocessed emotions andthey don't want to feel it, so
(31:55):
they try and shut you down,because they're so used to
shutting themselves down thatthey're trying to shut you down
as well.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yes, and that's not healthy.
Yes, and I think you'retouching on something here.
Additionally, when we use thoselittle white lies, we're lying
to ourselves, we're lying aboutthe feelings we're having Right,
we're covering it up using alittle lie because it might make
somebody else feel comfortable.
(32:20):
We're doing a few things hereundermines our integrity, our
personal integrity.
Two, when we find out someonedoesn't support us, when we find
out someone isn't in alignment,when we find someone doesn't
(32:40):
respond positively supportivelyto our situation when we're
being honest.
That's valuable information toknow If you've been saving them
from responding this way becauseyou've been lying to them or
giving them an out.
You don't know if that's yourreal friend.
You have no idea if that personcan support you.
(33:02):
So eventually, down the line,when something happens and
teeters and they act in acertain way and you feel
surprised, you've deniedyourself the information you've
needed all along to make adetermination about who you need
in your life.
And you have now thatinformation to go.
Oh, thank you for letting meknow who you really are.
That's important for me.
(33:24):
I now know that I don't need togo to you for this.
I now know I don't need toshare these things with you.
I now know I can carve that outof my life and put you a little
further away if I need to,because what I want to do is
make sure I'm surrounded bypeople who do love and respect
me and have integrity andcompassion for me.
And how do we do that if we'renot being truthful with them
(33:44):
about who we are and how we feel?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, and it's almost like I'm trying to think of a
phrase, and the only phrase thatcomes to mind is birds of a
feather flock together, Right orno?
It's almost like I'm trying tothink of a phrase and the only
phrase that comes to mind isbirds of a feather flock
together, right or no?
here's a better phrase likeattracts, like.
So if you're wanting someone tobe kind to you, you know be.
When you're kind to yourself,you know what that looks like
(34:09):
and you'll know how to recognizeit in someone else.
And so I love what you said,Michael, about not just being
honest with yourself, buthonoring your feelings, so that
you can recognize when someoneelse honors your feelings, Right
.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yes, 100%.
And speaking of this, you knowfor listeners out there who are
experiencing grief, and I wantto remind you guys, if you want
Santu's help and her support,you can reach out to
griefsupportcoco and thenforward slash free resources.
I would be remiss if I didn'tmention, by the way, she also
(34:51):
has her own podcast and we wantto support her.
So if you loved listening towhat she has to say and you want
to be a supporter of the San Tu, please vote for her in the
podcast competition for women.
The link is called griefsupport G-R-I-E-F.
Grief support dot.
Co.
Forward slash podcasts andit'll be in the show notes as
(35:11):
well.
You can vote as of thisOctoberober, I believe, right
october 1st.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, that's the deadline.
Yeah, and I just want to say,in case people are looking um, I
don't have my own podcast, I'mI I'm in a competition where I'm
um, where people can vote forme as a guest expert on
podcasts's there's there's othercategories.
Yeah, there's there's othercategories of other people
(35:36):
entering the competition aspodcast hosts.
but I've entered the competitionas a guest expert, so on that
page that you've mentioned onthe pod, on my grief supportco
podcast page.
I've got lots of other podcastson there where I've been a
guest and you know people arewelcome to listen to those as
well.
I talk about loss and grief onthose as well, so you can listen
to them.
(35:56):
Uh, or, you know, if you don'thave a lot of time to listen,
you can just simply click on abutton to vote for me from
having listened to this one.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Well, I I'm going to just confess, talking to you is
like having a verbal hug.
Every time I have you on thesecalls I just feel like I'm
getting hugged every single time.
It makes me feel loved and seenand appreciated and I know
that's not easy for a lot ofpeople to just say.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
But I wanted to let you know that it really does
warm me.
I'm welling up because that'sthe nicest thing anyone has ever
said to me, certainly on apodcast, but just in general.
Wow, that's such a beautifulthing to say, it's true.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
You have an energy about you that is vibrantly
comforting for me.
I hope the listeners can hearthat through this podcast.
Do you know when they'relistening that it is just so
comforting and I love that.
I hope people will reach out toyou.
So, in that vein, would youlike to leave our listeners with
anything final that you'd liketo say before we sign off?
Speaker 2 (37:20):
sign off.
Hmm, how to distill all that Iknow in one summary sentence?
That's a tough one.
Maybe I'll say something aboutthe importance of getting early
support and the importance, Iwould say, of counseling or
therapy, and I'm not.
I think I want to say thisbecause there's a lot of people
(37:45):
out there who may callthemselves a grief coach or a
counselor.
They may have had a life, onelife experience, in the realm of
death or loss and I think theycan support others.
And I think what I want to sayis, just as you would discern
(38:06):
which family member or friendyou would disclose things, to
discern carefully whatprofessional you seek out to
support you in your grief,because grief is very complex,
there's a lot to it and there'sthere's a lot of theory that one
needs to know.
So they need to know, likegrief counselors need to know
(38:28):
about attach, or I should callthem therapists, because
counselors don't learn aboutattachment theory, they don't
learn about trauma theory, andthose two areas are really
important for someone to knowabout in order to help you in a
deep kind of way, so that you'renot leaving that counseling
session going.
That didn't really help me muchand I've just wasted all my
(38:49):
time I'm still not much betterthan I was before, and so I just
want to encourage people toreally do your due diligence in
who you reach out for, whetherthat's family, friend or a
professional.
Do your due diligence becauseyou don't.
You want to be able to moveforward and progress and to move
(39:12):
forward in a way that helps youto lift your soul and to feel
better.
And I know that I can do thatnaturally with my personality
type, but it also comesnaturally because I've been
studying it for so long.
I'm studying the greats thatcame before me and studying the
(39:35):
greats that came before me,whereas other people I've
encountered in the field haven'tstudied the greats, haven't
studied any kind of theory andthey're just kind of guessing at
how to help you and reachinginto their own experience.
And you need to have a muchbroader understanding of what's
going to help people than justwhat helped you in your own
experience of loss.
So I don't usually talk aboutthat, but I was talking about
(40:00):
that with someone else recentlyand that's what's on my heart
today and at the moment, becausepeople can really suffer in
their grief and I I just I can'tbear to see people suffering
unnecessarily because I've seenso much suffering myself.
I want to help alleviate thatas quickly and as easily as
(40:22):
possible for people.
So yeah, I've got a real heartfor lifting people out of their
suffering.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Well, you do and you have, excuse me, you have a
life's experience of bothtragedy and overcoming study and
hard work and effort andconnecting Ladies and gentlemen.
A best-selling author,professional speaker and coach
and trainer, Santu Carter.
(40:49):
You can find out moreinformation at her website,
griefsupportco.
Thank you very much for yourtime and your efforts at making
this world a better place whenit comes to grief.
If you are out there and you'relistening, if you are suffering
from something tragic, you knowwe put on these coats, we put
(41:14):
on this armor, we try to getthrough.
But please remember, be verydiligent and compassionate with
your heart.
It needs the time and the spaceand the attention to heal from
these things and you're worth itand it is very important you
find a qualified individual tohelp you get through there and
if you want that support andthat help, you can certainly
(41:35):
find it with Santu Carter, mybeautiful, beautiful guest today
on the Fearless Road podcast.
Thank you so much for whatyou've done and for everything
that you do, and much love toyou today.
Ladies and gentlemen, this hasbeen a great one.
It's been a wonderful part twowith Santu Carter.
I hope you've enjoyed it.
(41:55):
Please put your response likesubscribe, do all those
wonderful things you know downbelow, or whatever it is.
Uh, to let us know that you'veenjoyed this episode.
And if you need to find outmore, like I've said, you can go
to thefearlessroadcom.
(42:19):
Uh, you can go on YouTube orwherever and I'll put all the
links and stuff in the shownotes for you.
But this has been Santu Carteron the Fearless Road with
griefsupportco.
Thanks so much.
Thank you, michael, it's been apleasure.
You're welcome.
Hey, stay fearless.
All right, bye everybody,absolutely.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.