Reclaiming Boundaries & Purpose with Kat Newport

In this powerful episode, we welcome the insightful and fearless Kat Newport, a compassionate leader and strategic problem-solver who is redefining what it means to be a purpose-driven woman. With a voice rooted in wisdom, empathy, and accountability, Kat offers real tools and guidance to help women overcome people-pleasing tendencies and build unshakable boundaries.

Kat speaks openly about dismantling the deeply ingrained patterns of “Good Girl Syndrome”—a societal conditioning that teaches women to prioritize others’ needs at the expense of their own well-being, values, and personal growth. If you’ve ever struggled to say no, felt guilty setting boundaries, or found yourself overextending to keep the peace, this episode is for you.

🧠 Key Takeaways from This Episode:

• How to identify and interrupt “Good Girl Syndrome” in daily life

• The two-part process of setting and maintaining strong boundaries

• Why boundary pushback is normal—and how to stay grounded when it happens

• Powerful reframing questions to ask during conflict or friction

• How to lead with both emotional intelligence and accountability

• Kat’s approach to balancing kindness with bold, results-driven decisions

Kat’s philosophy is clear: you don’t just set a boundary—you uphold it. Whether someone forgets or pushes back gently or forcefully, staying aligned with your values is your responsibility. Her practical insights into communicating boundaries with clarity and grace make this one of the most actionable and empowering episodes of the season.

💬 During moments of conflict or tension, Kat suggests asking:
“What is the concern?” and “How would you like to see this resolved in an ideal world?”
This shift to solution-oriented dialogue can transform not only workplace dynamics but personal relationships as well.

🎧 Final Thought:
This episode with Kat Newport is a game-changer for women ready to reclaim their time, voice, and energy. Tune in to learn how to stop living by others’ expectations and start leading from your own. It’s time to rewrite your story—with courage, compassion, and conviction.

Blog Excerpt: I think it’s safe to say that all women, at one point or another, have experienced “good girl syndrome,” which is very prominent in people pleasers. It’s always putting someone else above yourself, neglecting your own boundaries, self care, expectations, values, or health in the process.

Ways to Engage: What are some examples you’ve seen or experienced with “good girl syndrome?” Is this something you were aware of before listening to the episode or is new to you? Become aware of situations like this in your life or in the lives of those around you, supporting women in living unapologetically.

Timestamps:

Prioritizing Self Care - ( 3:07 )

Confidently Setting Boundaries - ( 4:16 )

Taking Care of Your Emotional Health as much as Your Physical Health - ( 6:52 )

Support self & other women unapologetically - ( 9:29 )

Coming Back to Your WHY and Your VALUES - ( 19:01 )

Living Out of Your Own Expectations - ( 45:25 )

Accepting the Layered Aspects of Yourself - ( 56:51 )

Living out FEEL, how does it affect your relationships - ( 1:01:56 )

5 Activities That Nourish You - ( 1:09:33 )

5 Words for How You Want to Feel in the Next Six Months - ( 1:12:47 )

Original Music by Valencia & Rio Saint-Louis

Want to be a guest on The F.E.E.L. Podcast? - Send Melissa Crook a message on PodMatch, here:

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hello, Melissa Crook here at TheField Podcast.
We've got some ways to engage for you to consider today with
our episode releasing Good Girl Syndrome with Cat Newport.
What are some examples you've seen or experienced with Good
Girl Syndrome? Is this something you were aware
of before listening to the episode or is this new to you?

(00:23):
I will be shocked, honestly, if this was new to you, but maybe
it is. Become aware of situations like
this in your life or in the lives of those around you.
Supporting women in living unapologetically, starting with
ourselves and those around us, not out of good Girl Syndrome
expectations, but who we authentically are.

(00:46):
We hope this gives you some things to think about today as
you engage with today's episode releasing Good Girl Syndrome
with Cat Newport. Thanks so much for being with
us. Hello and welcome back to The

(01:13):
Field Podcast. This week I'm here with a new
friend that I met via our good friends at Pod Match.
They always have such wonderful recommendations and some of my
best relationships and network that I've created in this work I
do on the Field Podcast and embracing Layers network have

(01:34):
been from our friends at Podmatch.
So always thankful for them. But we're going to talk about
and meet a woman today whose area of expertise is could not
be more important right now. It is a critical component of
our relationships, of our workplaces, of our personal

(01:56):
lives, all the spaces. And we're going to get into that
today with our guest, Kat Newport.
And you're going to understand what I'm talking about as we get
into this. Kat describes herself as a
compassionate leader. She balances kindness with
accountability, ensuring people feel heard while driving

(02:16):
results. She's fearlessly supportive.
She stands up for others while fostering a culture of care and
responsibility. She is purpose driven.
She leads with heart and conviction, making thoughtful
decisions that benefit both individuals and the bigger
picture. She's an empowered problem

(02:38):
solver. She tackles challenges head on
with empathy and strategic thinking.
And she's grounded yet courageous, approaches
situations with wisdom and emotional intelligence while
taking bold action when need it.I can't wait to jump into this
cat Newport. Welcome to the Field podcast.

(03:01):
Thank you so much for having me,Melissa.
I appreciate it. Absolutely.
All right, well, let's get rightinto it.
We're going to start with self-care.
Talk to me about prioritizing self-care in your life and what
your journey has been with that.So I've been in a corporate
environment for most of my adultlife.
So back in the 90s, as I date myself, self-care wasn't really

(03:30):
a thing. So, you know, really looking at
how that impacts your ability toengage with other people and how
that negatively impacted or my lack of self-care negatively
impacted my ability to show up as an effective and empathetic
leader. It, it sounds trite almost, you
know, you can't give from an empty tank.

(03:50):
But that's essentially what it'swhat it dropped down to.
And I found as I matured in my career, you know, taking that
step back, taking that time out,finding those things that I
enjoy and actually prioritizing them as opposed to working 90
hour weeks on the week, Yeah, actually showed up in a whole

(04:10):
different way in my career and in my personal life, of course.
Yeah, absolutely. So talk to me about the kind of
boundaries you learned you had to put around your time, your
resources, when you're like, OK,I got to be done today because I
got to go refresh and get the sleep and get the workout and
get the walk, the nature, whatever it is, the the time

(04:31):
with family, the time with friends that I need to refill my
cup at one point. Did you like, I've got to start
doing this so I can actually show up.
It's my healthiest, authentic self with a clear head and the
ability to bring my best self tothis place and to all my people.
Absolutely. So I think it came down to a

(04:53):
really a bit of a health crisis for me that it, it became that
I, I was in constant and chronicpain.
There was constant and chronic stress which did wonderful
things for my blood pressure. Oh my gosh, I know.
So it, it really sort of it cameto a head.
And of course, this this goes along with that midlife crisis
thing going, OK, do I want to keep going midlife?

(05:15):
I'm gonna sort of keep going with that.
And the answer was a firm no, I cannot keep going like this.
I've really got to change how I look at this.
And, and, and it really did start to roll when I, when I
quite realized looking backwardsand again, looking forwards,
that the work never really stops.
You know, I got to get this project done and it has to be

(05:35):
done today and it's got to be done now.
Now, now, now, now There's always something else right on
the right on the back end of that.
There's always something else that needs to be done now.
So it really became important tome to start prioritizing work.
Does this have to be done today?And a lot of my stress was I
have to do it now. There was that alarm blaring in

(05:56):
my head. It's got to happen today.
It's got to happen now. You know, I'm people are relying
on me. Oh, my goodness, what am I going
to do? You know?
And there was a quiet alarm fire.
And when I really had that moment to stop, when I really
said, OK, there, there, this is a pivot moment.
I'm getting sick. No, it's it's not really that

(06:17):
big of an emergency. If I do it today or I do it
tomorrow, is the world going to crumble?
And the answer was no. If there was a hard deadline,
you know, you had to file a brief for the legal team.
Fine, it's got to be done. But not everything has that kind
of deadline on it. It really doesn't.

(06:38):
And really stepping back and understanding that and, and
taking that space for yourself is super important and, and I
think that's one of the biggest lessons I learned.
Yeah, absolutely. So much good stuff there and
which goes really nicely into taking care of our emotional
health, mental health, physical health.
You just gave examples of how your body was deteriorating

(07:02):
physically from what you were putting it through with these
hours with these self-imposed stressors and expectations.
And I think so many times we do that.
We got, I got to prove myself. I got to show my worth.
I got to show how valuable I am.I can't disappoint anybody.
And so we put, and we think we can just go and go and go.

(07:23):
And that's not reality. We all have to stop at some
point and refresh and refill, but we start seeing the physical
ramifications of that. You mentioned the blood
pressure, the body pain, so muchof that manifestation is from
mental and emotional stressors that we're experiencing.

(07:44):
Absolutely, absolutely. You've summed it up perfectly.
I, I can't, I can't add more to that.
Yeah, yeah. And so you started experiencing
that. At what point did you decide?
Because part of doing this and setting the healthy boundaries
and prioritizing your Wellness requires effective
communication. We are not mind readers.

(08:07):
Other people cannot read our minds.
But so many times we keep waiting for someone to see how
we're suffering, how tired we are, how much we're giving, how
much we're contributing. If we just keep going, going,
going and we don't stop to ask questions or inform where we're
actually at, people are going toassume we're fine most of the

(08:31):
time. Most of the time people are not
going to. Maybe a few close relationships
will be like, ha, you seem like you're a burden.
The lamp at both ends a little bit.
Maybe we should talk about that.But most of the time it's upon
us to communicate that. But when we've created this
environment where we're available all the time, then all

(08:51):
of a sudden we're scared. Like what's going to happen when
I start communicating? I need something different.
What impact is this having on myrelationships outside of work?
Am I able to show up for them ina way that's needed?
And what kind of underlying undertones of problems and
conflict are arising there? It requires really clear,

(09:14):
sometimes hard conversations. And so this has become really a
calling card for you, something that you're very passionate
about. South, talk to me about your
move into that, because to me, our next talking point is how we
can support ourselves and other women in living
unapologetically. Clear, concise communication is

(09:38):
a number one calling card here. First, for showing up for
yourself and encouraging and inviting other people into that
and helping women know we're talking about women.
You help a lot, everybody, but we're talking about women here.
In this case, we're afraid to speak up.
We don't know our own value, that we deserve to have a voice
in the room, that we deserve to be seen and heard, that it's not

(10:02):
OK for us to be continually interrupted.
What it looks like to be a womanin the room that's got a little
more deposits in the bank that you might be able to extend a
hand. And hey, hey, I don't think
Sarah was finished yet. Can we let her finish?
She was she was in the middle ofa good idea, you know, ways we
can extend that. But this communication and not

(10:25):
being afraid of conflict and knowing that having those
conversations is actually going to minimize the space, the
conflict long term. When we decide I got to, I got
to take care of myself. I got to bring this up, We got
to have this hard conversation. We're at a values impasse.
And so I, I've said a lot there,but talk to me about this

(10:48):
transition because this to me islike your sweet spot of where
you really show up unapologetically for yourself
and for and, and encourage others as well and bring them
along with you. Absolutely.
So there's so many things as you're talking and the little
lights are going off in my head,so I'm hoping I remember them
all as being moved through. So the first one I kind of want

(11:08):
to address is the good girl syndrome in so many cultures,
particularly North America, particularly in Gen.
X and before we were, we were raised to be good girls.
Put your own self on the back burner, take care of everyone
else. Don't make too much noise.
They're there. Just be a good girl.

(11:30):
And this is not only instilled in us in our core families, our
nuclear families, It's it's, it's within the culture, you
know, you know, famous figures saying, well, you're not a nice
girl, you're not a nice woman. You know, these, these things
come out and it just sort of sits there.
So we have to identify and be able to identify when that

(11:51):
programming coming out and, and it does, which leads me into my
second light bulb, which is boundaries.
So everyone needs boundaries andboundaries are scary.
The first thing I often counsel and I often coach folks through
is figuring out where they need boundaries.

(12:12):
You know what? We say boundaries and people
think, OK, these big walls whereI'm going to block people out,
and that's not the case. Boundaries are more like living
hedges. They grow, they evolve.
They need tending and trimming. And, you know, all of these
things to, you know, good fencesmake good neighbors.
Yeah, with that. So when you're trying to think

(12:35):
of boundaries and you're lookingat when and where to set
boundaries, figure out where you're getting a pinch, where
you feel put upon. Oh, so and so did this and it
makes me uncomfortable. This might be that little flag
in the sand going. This might be a spot where we're
going to just put up a little hedge.
We're going to put up a boundary.
Here because there's. Obviously something that I feel
is impinging, you know, well, they always take advantage of

(12:57):
me. Well, you're complicit in that.
Why are they taking advantage ofyou?
Why do they think that? Where's your boundary?
How have you communicated that boundary, you know?
So. Pinch points and these flags
along the way are points where you can start putting up those
boundaries. And it's going to feel very
uncomfortable in the beginning, particularly if you've been

(13:19):
taught to be the good girl, to be the quiet one, to be
complicit, to be, you know, pliable to other people.
A lot of us are people pleasers a lot.
It's they're a social creature. People pleasing keeps us safe,
you know, and to set a boundary,it's not a pleasing thing.

(13:40):
It's also not a horrible, terrible, you know, bash them
over the head with your boundarykind of moment.
But it is an uncomfortable moment where, you know, I'm not
really comfortable talking aboutthis with you right now.
Perhaps I'll come back to you later.
It means I have to put the boundary in place.
I see you're upset. I get that, but I don't have

(14:04):
anything in the tank for you right now.
And then standing by that, right.
And you have to be able to be, and it's not the bad guy per SE.
You've got to be the one who's comfortable enough to put a
brick onto the, the edge around your hedge saying no, I'm going
to reinforce this a little bit that that I need some space.

(14:27):
So those are the two big ones that that pre programming from
our families, the pre program from the culture we're in, the
fact that we're social creaturesto begin with.
So our our base brain is saying get along at all costs and we're
going to get, you know, we're going to get.
So there's so much going on. And then that identification of
boundaries, the setting of boundaries, and then the

(14:48):
maintenance of boundaries, whicheverybody seems to forget about,
you have to maintain them. It's not up to the other person
to memorize all your boundaries and exactly where they are.
You're going to have to compassionately communicate
those on a regular basis. Now, Tuesday nights are my
nights. I'm sorry, I can't work late.
No, no, really, Tuesday nights, like I told you 3 weeks ago,

(15:10):
can't do Tuesday nights. You know, those are the 2 ones
that I wanted to bring up. Well, those are really good and
I love what you, you said so many good things there.
And I want to go back to we, we see ourselves as the bad guy.
Really we're self advocating. This is a form of self-care.
This is a form of self preservation.

(15:31):
This is a form of living out of our own expectations that we
really want that are really healthy for US versus what we
set beforehand because we were trying to live by somebody
else's. We wanted to make sure they were
satisfied with us, that we neverdisappointed them.
This is really what taking care of yourself in a whole authentic

(15:53):
way looks like. And so really kind of reframing
the messaging on that and the, and the fact you've got to
continue. It's it's, you know, the one
thing to write them down and getexcited and identify where they
are. But then you got to communicate
them. And the people that
authentically care about you andare really in relationship with

(16:17):
you, whether it's in work or outside of work, because they
want you to be well and understand that you being well
means you're better for yourselffirst and foremost, because they
care about you and also you're better for them.
You bring a clear headed, clear thinking, freshly rejuvenated
mind and spirit to the workplace, to the work, to the

(16:39):
space you're in to the relationship.
If people are are don't respond in a way they just want to keep
you the way you are, this might be a clue that it's time to
think about a different space tobe in.
And that can be a really hard thing to do, but to to honor
yourself in that way. And when you aren't, haven't

(17:01):
been doing this very long, it may take a few reminders, People
may not get it the first time. And you've got to stay with
that. And you can't take that.
Sometimes we take people's pushback as a sign we've done
something wrong. No, it's not a sign you've done
something something wrong. They're just not used to it yet.
They just haven't been accustomed to you showing up

(17:24):
this way, communicating this clearly, setting it out there so
you got to give them time and atsome point you have to make a
decision. I think's too, where you've
reminded several times this has been going on for six months
now. They keep coming back to you.
And I need you to really put this in your calendar, stick it
in your mind, put it in a stickynote on your desk.

(17:47):
I need you to quit asking me to violate a boundary that I've
continually and clearly communicated with you, or we're
going to have to have a different conversation about our
relationship, our connection, our times, you know, those kinds
of things. And not being afraid to do that.
But don't take it as a sign you're doing something wrong in
it. New habits.

(18:08):
Your nervous system has to be trained that this new way is
healthy for you. Because I talk about this all
the time on here, but our nervous, and I've just learned
this five years ago through my own work and my own therapy.
Our nervous system equates safety with familiarity so many
times. And so if all of a sudden we
start showing up in this new way, it's going to take time for

(18:32):
our nervous system to recalculate and re equate.
So don't don't misunderstand that discomfort is meaning
you're doing something wrong as well.
I think those are really important things that you've
that that we've got to talk about when we're talking about
this. When did you decide to move in

(18:54):
this direction? When was your like, OK, it's
time for me. And this really kind of goes
into where the importance of setting and coming back to your
why and your values and everything you do.
At some point, your why, your values were pointing you.
I have to believe in this direction.
So talk to me about that, that OK, there's a need here and for

(19:19):
the betterment of us all and boyhowdy, do we need to know how to
have conversations and work through conflict right now more
than any other time that I can imagine in our history.
So talk to me about your move. You know the guidance of your
listening to your inner knowing and your wine values and
deciding. This is the route I'm going to

(19:40):
go. So, yeah, it was, it was a very
long, I was working at a leadership position and one of
the things that was on my my docket was organizational
developments. They're providing a professional
development to colleagues and sourcing programs and presenting

(20:01):
programs. And one of the very first ones I
was requested to present was conflict management.
And it started out as a cute little 2 hour thing.
This yeah, here's something, this is OK.
And then it went to a day, and then it went to two days, and
then it went to three days. And is like, there's definitely

(20:21):
something here just within this organization.
And it was a customer service organization, forward facing
organization, you know, really on the ball in that regard.
So when I finally left that position and I was in a bit of a
hiatus and I was taking time offto write my book.
And I'm like, so I know I'm writing a book.

(20:42):
This has been a lifelong tree. What am I going to write it
about? You know, and I want to get into
coaching and I want to get into leadership.
And you know, leadership is so broad it.
Really. Is it?
Really is so how do I niche down?
How do I listen to the heart song and follow the heart song?
And you know, looking over my experience over the years,

(21:02):
looking over what worked and youknow what, what sparked the
passion and I do refer to this often as my passion project.
This is the passion. I really sat down and started
thinking about conflict. Out of all the stuff that I've
done, I've got the most feedback, touched the most
lives, seen the most impact frommanaging conflict and supporting

(21:24):
others and learning how to manage conflict.
So that started OK, how does this come out and how does this
manifest? So becoming that conflict coach,
working with individuals who arein state planning, you know,
money and death and family, but where's the conflict there, You
know, working with that and working in mediation and, and,

(21:44):
you know, looking at that from an HR perspective as well as I'm
an HR manager, you know, all of these different facets came out
like, OK, this, this is it. And, and to your point, it, it
is so needed. And we have so many of us have
never been taught how to do it, that it, it just seemed to
click. And it's also, you know, really,

(22:05):
really based where there are twopeople, you are going to have
conflict. Conflict is simply a difference
of opinion, your opinion versus my opinion.
You like chocolate, I like vanilla.
We are now have a conflict, you know, and, and the weight of
that conflict will obviously differ.
But but that's kind of how it it, it evolved going.
Where's that niche? Where has the impact been in my

(22:26):
life so far? And how do I pull that together
and and make this a bigger energy as I move forward in my
career, my life? Yeah, in a nutshell.
Yeah, but that's you said something so important.
I mean so many things so important there.
But what really came to mind, and you and I talked about this

(22:46):
a little bit before we started recording, was there's so much
fear around it, but where there's there's knowledge
creates a power and a confidence.
So when we have knowledge, when we have resources, then it, it,
it removes the fear and the ability.
But for some reason it sometimestakes a nudge for people to even

(23:09):
ask for the resources and feel empowered in this space.
And so Even so, how do you, how do you approach people when
you're like, you know, I think Ican help you.
This is how and you see the fear.
What it what? What are some examples that you
use to remind them of this is actually going to remove that

(23:33):
that not remove it completely. Sometimes conversations are just
hard no matter how many tools you have, but it's going to give
you a resources to feel like you've got something to draw on
going in. So when working with clients who
do start exhibiting that that risk aversion, that anxiousness
around those difficult conversations around the

(23:54):
potential conflicts, even the word conflict can cause anxiety
and people. So they're more.
Difficult conversations, which in my mind is essentially the
same thing, but. Whatever makes it work.
Whatever makes it work. So when approaching that
anxiousness, it it is really about sitting down and walking
through that risk assessment. What do you actually think is

(24:17):
going to happen here? And one of the examples I really
love to use, and I came across it ages ago and it just sort of
keeps coming up is, you know, going to the family reunion and
really not wanting to talk to grandma because, you know,
grandma's going to bring up yourweight you.
Really put on a couple. Pounds there, dear.
You know she's going to bring upthe weight.
Here's a respected elder. Here's a woman that you love.

(24:41):
Here's a topic you really don't like to talk about.
Don't want to talk about the love handles or the hips or
whatever it is. You don't want to do it.
But what is the real risk here? If you say grandma, why don't we
just go play cards? I don't want to talk about this.
I'm not comfortable here. What is the real risk there?
You know? Well, he's going to stop loving

(25:02):
me and the family's going to hate me.
And, you know, we all go to thiscatastrophic kind of thing and
she's going to die of a heart attack.
And they told her she can't talkabout it.
OK, let's walk that back a little bit.
Granted, lot they're fears, not terribly logical, but but
they're fierce and they're there.
So. So now that we've got worst case
scenario in a box over here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(25:24):
Well, poor grandma, because you tell her you don't want her to
talk about your weight anymore. Let's be realistic.
What's going to actually happen?Well, she could get mad.
OK, What does that look like andwhat does that mean?
And how does that manifest? You know, and, and really
starting to unpack the, the fearand the assumptions around

(25:46):
what's going on. We treat thoughts and
assumptions as truth rather thantreating them as just thoughts
and assumptions so many times. Very much so.
Very much so. It's very much like, no, no, I'm
not going to send my food back. I know it's not what I ordered,
but I'm not going to send it back because they're going to
spit in my food. OK, Wanted the chicken, not the

(26:12):
steak. Yeah.
It's the things that that we we kind of start to internalize
and, and this is where I come back to the messages that you're
giving yourself, the messages that you're on boarding.
And I see this a lot. And I saw this with my own kids
and I see this a lot with some of my clients, that the
messaging that you're ingesting,particularly from social media

(26:35):
is going to impact how you perceive reality.
Well, if I say, you know, if I say this or, you know, I get
angry at somebody on the roads, they're going to come.
They're going to smash my windowopen with a tire.
OK, This is what you're seeing on the TikTok.
I get it. But it is not as likely as

(26:55):
you're probably making it out today.
Yeah, Yeah, that's a really goodexample.
I mean, what we ingest, what is in our subconscious and what we
start, man, because those algorithms are, they just keep
feeding you that you can go downa rabbit hole real quick and all
of a sudden you're scared to death of everything or angry

(27:17):
about something that maybe you should be a little angry about,
but not to the level that you'vegotten to because the algorithm
has just kept reeling, reeling, reeling, reeling.
So bringing that people back to what's a more likely scenario,
let's break this down into what could actually be.
And that in itself removes fear because you're like, that truth,

(27:39):
that thought we're not going to treat, or that thought that
here, we're not going to treat that as truth.
I'm not going to tell you it's not absolutely possible,
impossible. But what do we think is going to
actually happen here? Yeah.
And that's really kind of a basic premise, but I think we
overlook that. Very much so.

(28:00):
And, and it's also, and I love your point about the nervous
system, it's about training the nervous system to get
comfortable with the uncomfortable.
So when we're looking at boundaries and we're looking at
having those difficult conversations, conflicts, we're
looking at having those, You know, it's about starting small
where the risk is small. It's about sending the chicken

(28:21):
back when you ordered the steak because what's the risk of ever
seeing that waiter again? Probably not a lot.
What is going to happen to your relationship with the waiter?
Probably not a lot. I've known him for 6 minutes
versus starting out with your boss.
You're a loser and didn't give me a raise.

(28:43):
Yeah. So instead of taking the nervous
system and jumping full into theshock, which works for some
folks, I'm not going to, I'm notgoing to get to get it.
I'm, I'm once I get over the original fear, I'm, I'm a
cannonball girl. Yeah, some folks need that,
that, that gradual build up. So we start with the waiter and
then we go to the library where you see that librarian on a

(29:04):
regular basis and on a weekly basis.
And you're really not happy. And you want to talk about
something, you know, the, the parking in the front, whatever.
And then bring it up to eventually you get to grandma
and eventually then, oh gosh, wegot to mom.
Now we're going to go to the boss and ask for that race, You
know, with the risk associated with it, because risk is, is
based on so many things. You know what you're asking for

(29:27):
the relationship involved from the type of relationship and the
depth of the relationship. You know, if you've never really
been close to your mother, confronting your mother and
having that difficult conversation might not be as
impactful as someone who has been very close and has an
intramesh relationship with thatparent.
You know, so it's it's very individual.
So I I find a lot of time folks coming to me and going.

(29:47):
So what's the silver bullet? And my very unsatisfying answer
is there isn't 1 Yes. You got to do the work.
What is your bullet? Because this is all about you.
Because we're all individuals. We all have reprogramming.
Even when I work with families, for example, when we're doing
the coaching, I have two sistersthat are like 16-18 months

(30:10):
apart. They were raised in the same
home by the same parents and have two totally different
perspectives on life. They have two totally different
perspectives on how they were raised.
They have two totally different relationships with the same
parent in the same household, separated by only 18 months.
So yeah, there is no silver bullet.
Yeah, that's such a good example.

(30:32):
Because no one's truth is less, no one's lived experience is
less true than the other, even though it's very different.
And so creating space for everybody to be heard, seen and
known, even when your story and their story aren't in alignment,
doesn't minimize. And that's really the first step

(30:53):
in being able to have a meaningful conversation with
each other is just that understanding that empathy,
listening, I mean, gosh, listening is such a big
component of this. And I'm, I say that because I
am, I am not always the best listener in conflict.

(31:14):
I'm ready to fight. I'm ready with the next
comeback. I'm because I grew up in an
environment where that was very much the case.
So I've had to learn how to showup at a level set in these
situations. I've had to learn to say, I'm
feeling more emotionally chargedthan I think is good for this

(31:37):
conversation right now. So can we table this for 24
hours, 30 minutes a week and come back to it?
Because so many times what happens with that is it swept
under the rug and it's never visited again and it creeps up
later into a bigger, badder problem.
But tabling that and committing to a time to come back to it.

(31:58):
But it starts with that, that seeing each other and stories
with empathy and understanding and not just dismissing the the
truth in their own story just because it's different from
yours. Very much so.
There's got to be an openness toto build on your thought.
There's got to be an openness toaccept the other person's

(32:18):
perception as reality and incorporate that into your own.
Just because you have different perspective about a certain
situation doesn't mean the otherperson is wrong and you are
right. If you're walking into a
difficult conversation or a conflict with a win lose
mentality, you've already lost. There is no way this is going to

(32:42):
end well at all. I've been in mediations and, and
we were there for oh golly, we had about 8 hours total together
split up over difference. And it was this dichotomy
between one individual and another individual.
Well, you did this. Well, that's not what I did.
I actually did this. No, no, no, I'm sure you did
that. A No, no, no, what I was meaning

(33:03):
to do was B No, no, no, What youdid was A and we spent 8 hours
with both of them. So entrenched that even taking
each other's perspectives and they were so entrenched in the A
versus B that you're wrong, I'm right.
This is not going to end until you agree with me that the
mediation was unsuccessful. It just at 8 hours, we called it

(33:27):
saying, OK, this is not going anywhere.
I don't feel like I'm helping. I don't know if you feel like
I'm helping, but we do have to stop.
And so really being open to changing your step to change
your perspective. And this works not only in
families as well, but at work that no, no, my department needs

(33:48):
A, No, no, my department needs B.
It's like, OK, well, if we both need something, we got to figure
out how to do it. Yeah.
Yeah. And so often it becomes, you
know, getting troops into your camp going, OK, we're going to
do A because that's our department, and I'm going to
talk to the boss over there. And then the other person is
gathering their troops. And.
And the next thing we know, we're in our trenches on the

(34:08):
opposite side is the battlefield, you know, one
wanting A and one wanting B. And this is not good for an
organization from a strategic perspective.
This is suicide. Not going to happen, you know,
And, and it requires that ability to be emotionally
intelligent enough to say, OK, for the better good of the
organization, we have to bring A&B together and figure out what
C looks like. Yeah.

(34:29):
And that's. Terribly hard, yeah, but you
have to be. I think you hit something so
important. You have to decide going into
this what your end goal is. If your end goal is winning,
then you're you need to turn back out and go back out the
door and and get to a different space where your end goal is.
Where can we come to some kind of resolution that, you know, we

(34:54):
may both have to give up some things, but we both are better
off as a whole in the relationship, in the
organization, in the family dynamic, whatever it is.
And if they're if, if both parties aren't willing to accept
that part of the deal or there'sjust some non negotiables that
you know, then you're not going to get anywhere.

(35:15):
You've got to be part of it. You can't expect someone to come
in with your skill set and just have that, that silver bullet
again, that we talked about, this is a this is joint.
And sometimes there's things we all need to have our non
negotiables. And at that point it might be
deciding, you know, maybe it's time for this relationship to
take a backseat. Maybe I need to love you from

(35:36):
afar for a while. Maybe it's time for us to
dissolve and do something different.
That can be true and sometimes that can be what needs to be
done. But if you really, if you're
going into that again with that I got to win mentality, then
probably not going to get very far.

(35:58):
Agreed, agreed. And one of the things I see, and
you see this on the TikTok a lotbecause I do the the conflict
thing and I, I, I see it on the TikTok a lot that you didn't
agree with me. So I'm just going to cut her
out. Oh, boy.
If your go to in conflict is if we don't reach a resolution,
you're out of my life forever. That's your first go to.

(36:19):
You're going to end up very lonely.
Yeah. While it's always on the table
and it's always an option, depending on the relationship,
depending on all sorts of factors, we can go that way.
But what do you really want? And this is where I bring the
tool in called the Oculus owl. It's it's a quick little
acronym, also known as empathetic insertion 3 three

(36:43):
letters to make who. So think of the owl.
Think of who. And before you step into a room
for a difficult conversation, the West is what?
Without emotion, without the boiling water, What exactly is
it that you're you're the concern is?
Yeah. And you would be surprised how

(37:04):
difficult that is when you sit down saying I'm going to go talk
to this person and I really haveto articulate without emotion,
without saying they're crazy, this is all their fault.
You know, re identifying dispassionately what the concern
is H in The Who stands for how, how do you want to see it

(37:24):
resolved? In an ideal world, you know, I
would prefer you to come to me instead of talking to the boss
so we can potentially find a resolution together.
OK, Yeah, I have concerns when the boss comes to me about a
question I've asked you. I would prefer that we work
together on a solution. So can we set up a call before
it goes to the boss so that we can potentially come to a

(37:46):
solution? And then the O is opening
yourself up to the relationship and negotiation.
What do you think about that? I don't want it to go to the
boss. This is a concern for me right
out of the gate. I want some time to talk about
it together before we go to the boss.
What do you think about my idea?Instead of you're always

(38:06):
crawling around behind my back and running to the boss and
every little thing that's stupid, you're going to stop.
I'm saying the same thing. Yes, the delivery and the words
matter. Very much so.
And it it's getting yourself beyond the tit, tit, tit, tit,
tit, tit and into the Oculus, out into the dispassionate,

(38:29):
what's going on into the objective.
This is how I would like to see it resolved.
And then opening yourself up to negotiation because you,
Melissa, might have a different option.
It's like, well, they have to bekept abreast.
I agree. So let's copy them on the
meeting as an optional attendance.
What do you think about that? And there's that negotiation.
I want A, you want B, and we're finding something in the middle

(38:53):
without compromising either one of us for our non negotiables.
Yeah, but it's the dispassion and working through those
emotions yourself because quite honestly, your emotions are your
problem. I have my own to deal with.
Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
If you're coming to me with a conflict, expecting me to make
you feel better, you're going tobe disappointed because the last

(39:15):
time I checked, not a human alive had a magic wand to make
you feel anything. Yeah.
I cannot make you feel happy. I cannot make you feel sad.
I cannot make you feel. Responsible.
Too. No.
These are your choices as much as an unpopular decision.
And to comment, that is your choice.
To be angry is precisely that, your choice.

(39:38):
The guy cuts off, cuts you off in traffic, it is your choice to
lay on the the horn, tailgate them and make rude gestures.
That is your choice. Nobody's forcing you to do that.
But they caught me. Yes, it is very frustrating.
Yes, they. All.
Yeah, yeah. Yes, you were scared, but you
chose to get upset. Yeah, yeah.

(40:01):
And respond in that way, yeah. Decides that and when I'm in
these coaching relationships, a lot of time that that taking
responsibility for your own emotional reaction takes a lot
of work. A lot of times we haven't been
taught to do that. They make me so angry.
They made you angry? Well, they are a very powerful
person. But yeah, you gave your power

(40:25):
away and getting into that why? What is in your story that is
igniting this? What is the why behind it?
Is it actually them or what doesthis light up in you that is
that this is based in from whatever scenario, whatever
situation time in your life and getting.
I've had to really work on this that getting curious rather than

(40:48):
judgmental getting and but it requires a really like pause and
think through because I'm a veryemotional person and you ask
anybody that knows me, I can be very reactionary and very get
very fired up about things I'm very passionate about.
So this is something I have to be mindful of all of the time.

(41:11):
And I had to even learn that that kind of response well may
have some justification in the core of it is not going to move
the needle necessarily on something.
And what's a better, more well thought out, well planned way
and healthier as well for me to really get to where I'm going

(41:36):
and, and consider, you know, I think you hit on something so
important that our emotions, theway we feel, how we show up in
the world, taking care of those things is on us to do our own
work and ask those hard questions and get curious about
the sources and heal those places that need to be healed so
we can show up present and as objective as possible when these

(42:01):
conflicts come up. So, yeah, going back to that
silver bullet, sorry folks, it'sa whole layered process that we
that we have to go into. Very much so when you were
speaking, what what clicked for me was a client I was working
with and a leadership coaching and they had this horrible
conflict going on with their boss.
I hate them. They're terrible and it's awful.

(42:23):
Every time they talk to me, I lose my mind.
It's just, and it's like, OK, sowhat's the what's the West here?
What are you upset about in thisinstance?
Well, it's just that. But where's the emotion coming
from? Well, she says, it's just like
my mother did back up the bus. Your boss is not your mom.
So what do you think your boss'smotivation is for saying this?

(42:47):
Well, they're just trying to do that.
OK, so your boss's motivation isthis, this is what's bothering
you. How do you want it to?
So if we were able to identify and start to separate a little
bit that emotional reaction because they use a similar
phrasing and tone as someone in their past and how we're going
to move forward with that, knowing that the intent may not

(43:07):
be the same. Yeah, yeah.
So and, and focusing forward because so many times I, I get
caught with, with my clients andwe're stuck.
Well, well, it's just, well, it OK, Can we forward face, please?
I appreciate the backward face, but you came to me for a
leadership problem. You want to be a better leader.
So how are you going to do that?You want to get better at

(43:29):
conflicts so you can progress and get that promotion you want.
How are you going to do that? And looking backwards saying,
well this happened to me in my past and This is why I react the
way I do and you're just going to have to deal with it is not
helpful. No, no.
And it just keeps you going on the same trajectory instead of
being like, we can't assume everybody's going to.
But it it, you know, it tells you how much that imprints on

(43:53):
us. And when something like that
imprints on us and continues to come up, we have to go back and
heal that wound or open that door, acknowledge that emotion
and figure out what we need to do so that every time we have a
situation come up like that, that many times these things
come up over and over and over again in the world.
We're not attaching that past situation to this current one

(44:14):
all the time, because then we'rejust going to stay stuck.
Very much so. And and that's the defining
moment between coaching and counseling.
As a coach, I'm very forward focused.
I want you to get that promotion.
I want you to heal that riff with your family.
I am forward focus. If you start turning back around
and wanting to deal with whatever issues happen back

(44:37):
there, that's your counselor, that's your therapist, that's
your psychiatry, and we have a multifaceted approach.
You go to the right professionalfor the right thing.
I love that delineation. That was really good and really
important and I think under important for people to
understand when they are lookingfor guidance, direction,

(44:58):
insights, resources to really befully thinking what it is.
Am I looking for and is that a reasonable ask from this
particular person or do I need to bring in other place people
in other parts of my life so that this can actually be
successful? Yes, I still need this.
So thank you for that. That was really good.

(45:19):
And this really, we've been talking about this the whole
time, really, especially the last few minutes.
But living out of your own expectations versus others, We
run into people all the time. You had to come to that point
where it's like living out of what I've decided the workplace
and these places expect of me isnot serving me anymore.

(45:40):
That good girl script is not serving me anymore.
And we all have to get to a place where, and some people
don't. I mean, sadly, some people don't
get there and they continue to suffer because they think they
don't have a choice. They think they don't see a way
out or they're not willing. They're comfortable.

(46:02):
And I, and I always say comfort can be the enemy of curiosity
and health. So I'm not talking about comfort
of having electricity and running water in those kind and
food. I'm talking about comfort in
your social situations, your work situations.
Are you thriving? You and I both.
We do work that lights us up, that makes us want to get up in

(46:25):
the morning, that inspires us tohave these conversations.
Sometimes that's not possible for everybody in their
workspace. But are you feeling your cup and
your place up with other things that light you up?
Hobbies, activities that nourishyou, those kinds of things.
But you got to a point where yourealized this was necessary.

(46:47):
And so much of what you do is really helping people
communicate their expectations instead of assuming that people
just know or they should know orthey're or my expectations
aren't as important as their expectations.
You know, we give our power away.
So talk to me about your own expectations journey and how

(47:10):
that helps you in the work that you do today with people.
Very much so. So when I, I started, when I
started my career, I very much fell into it.
I started a part time job that turned into a full time job that
you know, I I started climbing up the ladder going.
This works. All right.

(47:34):
So it was more of a fall in and I've encountered this also with
so many clients over the ages, ages over the years.
That's now we'll sit down and I had to sit down and I had to do
it with myself. I actually had a mentor who sit
down and asked me the same question.
I find this is a silver bullet. What are your goals?

(47:55):
I have encountered so many professionals in my career that
when we sit down to take a look at what is your next step, What
are your goals? What do you want?
You either get, I don't know, orthe flip answer.
I want your job. I'm like, OK, we, we need to
flesh that out all. Right.
Again, we're going to ask. A question really.

(48:21):
A lot of us get into these things.
You know, we become executives, become professionals, we become
leaders. And is this what we want?
Is this a conscious decision or are we following the next piece
of Flotsam and Jessam that sort of floats past the raft?
You know, when articulating whatdo you want to do with your
life, people will sit and and very much to your point, there's

(48:46):
a comfort. Well, I'm I'm in a job and I'm,
I'm OK. OK, you're in a job and you're
OK. But are you happy?
Well, what does happy mean? What would happy mean to you?
Because you're you came to me saying you're gaining weight and
you're looking at potentially getting a new job.
So what does happy mean to you? Yeah, Yeah.
And, and it's really sitting down and being able to explore

(49:07):
that. And I do challenge folks once a
year, sit down at least five points.
What are your goals? What are your goals and how have
they changed since last year andwhy have they changed since last
year? Do we have a new baby on the
way? That'll change your goals,
right? Upside down all of a sudden goes

(49:27):
in the corporate ladder to beinga present parent.
You know, it can, it can change for every individual, but there
are so many people I've come across and it's just
heartbreaking when I find it. What do you want to do?
What are your life goals? And there's really nothing on
the plate. You know, there's parsley left
on the edge, but there's no meatand potatoes, and that'll stifle

(49:50):
you. That causes mental stress.
That causes a feeling of being stuck.
Well, I'll just sit here until something gets better or until
something catastrophic happens. What happens if you downsize?
What happens if you get, you know, filtered out?
You get your pink slip? What's going to what's going to
happen then? And this is where it can become

(50:10):
catastrophic for the individual who doesn't have goals, who
doesn't have that next level setup, or at least a vague idea of
what the next level looks. Yeah, yeah.
The most successful folks I've found have that goal.
You know, I'm going to straighten up, I'm going to fly
right and I'm going to move up the ladder to the next level by

(50:30):
doing XY and Z. And lo and behold, we did it.
It's like, OK, Sir, are you happy now?
Is this, is this it? Well, no, no, I think I can do
more. I think I can do better.
I'm a fairly smart person. I've got the education behind
me. What would happen maybe if I I
went to a different level of it?I don't know.
What do you want out of it? And lo and behold, the goals

(50:51):
were set and this individual went from entry level position
and is currently vice president.It's was about the goals and
being open to the lessons and being open to the challenge and
being open to be uncomfortable, being brave.

(51:11):
Yeah. And that.
Uncomfortable. Piece yes, a huge difference
between this individual and someothers that I've worked with who
I don't have goals. I'm OK where I am.
Are you? Are you sure?
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, because there is
an an error that people carry about them when they are

(51:33):
comfortable versus satisfied andthose can look very different.
And I love your piece about coming back and checking in with
yourself every year. Are you, are you, are your goals
the same? Have they changed?
Are you looking to be more present for your family?
Do are your parents reaching years where you need to spend

(51:54):
some more time with them, care for them?
Figure that out? Are you wanting to travel more?
Do you, are you feeling the needto infuse more activities that
nourish you? You know, values that you have
that you're not making enough space for to kind of maybe you
are where you want to be. You've made that BP role.
You're happy in the job, you feel like you're meeting, but

(52:16):
there's other areas of your life.
I mean, just getting and, and getting like where is that Y
coming from? Is it coming from my own
expectations and what I authentically care about?
Is it being driven by something else and, and parsing that out
because that will make a difference.
I mean, I think so many of us, and I know this is the case for
me. You get to 455055 and you start

(52:42):
assessing your life and who's expectations and am I living out
of who's why, whose values. If I'm feeling angsty, that's
telling me I need to ask myself these questions and really using
these frameworks, this frameworkthat I use on here, the

(53:02):
framework that you're talking about, start checking in with
yourself. Because we go through different
seasons, it is unrealistic to think that everything's just
going to stay static as we grow and evolve and change, just go
through different seasons, unexpected things are going to
happen. And so are you firmly rooted
enough in your why, your value, your expectations, who you are

(53:25):
as a person that you can weatherthat storm, that unexpected
storm? I mean, there's so many pieces
and that goes into, comes back to being able to communicate
effectively. Once you know what those YS,
those values, those things are, who do you need to communicate
those two first? Communicate them to yourself.

(53:47):
But who else needs to hear aboutthis?
Which really, I mean that that'ssuch a key component of this.
And this comes nicely back around into where we started the
conversation, talking about boundaries and the difficult
conversations that go with them.Because as your goals change,

(54:08):
your boundaries need tending, your boundaries will change.
You've got to move the, the, the, the Bush a little bit.
You've got to move the hedge just a little bit.
And that ties into your goals, which is going to make setting
that boundary easier, which is going to make having that
conversation easier. If you don't know why you're
setting a boundary and you don'tknow what your your angle is, it

(54:30):
becomes very difficult because you don't have a firm footing in
that motivation and in that thatvalue setting.
And, and it does become hard andbecomes much easier to waffle.
It becomes much easier to say I said it and maybe they got yeah.
Right, right. And going back to that, you

(54:51):
know, again, we have to like when we show up a little
differently or things change, wegot to keep communicating that.
We got to get our system comfortable with that.
We got to settle into that and stay committed to that and also
make if you're coming from someone else's why expectation
or hope that they where they want you to be, you're it's not
going to stick either. It's got to be from you.

(55:14):
And that might be part of the hard conversation is like, I
understand this is important to you and this comes up in
relationships, your partners, your kids, your parents, But but
this is where I am on it. And I cannot effectively I
execute this in my life because this isn't what's authentically
tied to me. And I understand that might
disappoint you, but I need to not disappoint myself.

(55:37):
So how do we, you know, how do we get to a common place of of
being able to move? Forward.
In this space. Because when we're having those
difficult conversations, when we're having those conflicts,
we're investing in the relationship.
We're not breaking a relationship.

(56:00):
If you avoid the conflict, if you avoid the difficult
conversation, if you ignore it or you cut the individual off,
the investment that goes into that relationship has ended.
Yeah. And the, the IT will depreciate
in value. That relationship will
depreciate at that point. So conflict, when we we have it

(56:21):
in our head that conflict is a bad thing.
It's not it's, it's precious andit's valuable and it shows that
you're willing to commit to thatrelationship.
Yeah, and builds trust because you you're both willing to show
up and work through that the thedifficult stuff you need.

(56:43):
It means enough to both of you. Yeah, that's so good.
All right. And we'll come back to that in a
little bit in a minute, But talkto me about accepting the
layered aspects of yourself. I think so many, the ability to
like really feel good about yourself, feel good about your
value, and communicate effectively on your own behalf.

(57:04):
A lot of it is is layered in, pun intended, the ability to
accept the layered aspects of yourself, the parts where you
made decisions you wish you hadn't.
You chose a job you wish you didn't.
You stayed longer than you should have.
You, you know, whatever the casemay be, the surprise happened.
You didn't respond the way you wanted to.
You can't go back and change it.But it is a part of your story.

(57:27):
And so getting instead of, you know, trying to hide it or
having shame around it, accepting it, that embodies and
impacts how you feel about yourself and also embodies and
impacts your ability to communicate authentically and
honestly and fully so that you can have the kind of

(57:47):
relationship that is going to feel good to you and the person
you're in a relationship with. And this goes for relationships
in your personal life as well asyour work life.
So talk to me about your layers journey.
So the layers journey for me sort of came down to, to two
points and I, I jotted them downas you were speaking.

(58:07):
Sorry, didn't forget the first one is Grace.
There is not one human being alive who's ever done everything
in their life absolutely perfectly the way it a should
have been done. And for those of you who don't
see the camera I'm using really big air quotes should have been

(58:30):
done or I could have done better.
You know, I I call it shooting on yourself.
Don't do that. It should have been better
giving yourself the grace that I'm a flawed human being just
like everybody else. You know, things happened, I
fixed them. Whatever happened.
The second piece was learning. What did I learn as opposed to I

(58:53):
should have, or I'm so bad, or Imade such a mistake, I'm so
stupid. What was my lesson?
What is my take away from this event or takeaways depending on
the event that I'm going to try to put into my future

(59:14):
experiences and and really trying to take the lesson and
the grace, OK, I screwed it up, but I learned X and I'm going to
use X over there. Yeah, it's that forward facing
this and not getting stuck into that feedback loop of I made a
mistake, I made a mistake, I made a mistake, I made a

(59:34):
mistake. Giving yourself the grace that
Yep, you made a mistake, move on.
Yep. Yep, Yep, we all do.
Mm Hmm. Well, I'm so embarrassed.
That's fair. We're allowed to be embarrassed.
And it doesn't last forever. Not unless you make it last
forever. So giving yourself to make the

(59:57):
mistake and then once the mistake is made, to learn from
the mistake. What are my carry forwards?
Yeah. Yeah, so important because I
think too, if you're in constantconflict with yourself on these
things, it's going to be very difficult to work through
conflict with other people because you're in constant
conflict with yourself. Do you see a relationship
between that when you're workingwith people?

(01:00:20):
Very much, Sarah. And this brings us back to the
goals. What do you want out of life?
I hate my job. OK, So what do you want out of
life? Yeah, yeah, OK.
I, I hate my girlfriend. OK, So what do you want out of
life? You know, it, it, it kind of
comes back to the goals. We're, we're stuck in this
place, but we don't know where we're going.
So. So there's that feeling of

(01:00:40):
helplessness that that starts tofeed on it.
Every human being I have ever met, and I'm sure every human
being that you've ever met is whole and complete and has the
answers for their own life. Yeah, the job of a coach, the
job of a mentor, the job of a friend is to help that

(01:01:01):
individual realize their capacity.
What did you learn? Give yourself the grace to let
go and then use those learnings in the future.
Yeah. Only you can see what's going on
in your life. And I I encounter this so much
with clients where, well, just tell me what to do.
I can't tell you what to do because my life, my choices, my

(01:01:24):
perspectives are exactly that, mine.
Yeah, Yeah. So whatever I tell you is not
going to fit. So let's talk about what you
need, what you think, what toolsyou have, what resources you
have, and how you're going to apply them.
Yeah, well, that's really good. I love what you said about we

(01:01:46):
all have it within us. We all have the tools.
Sometimes you just need someone to help pull them out, ask the
right questions, get you thinking about them.
That's so good. All right in living out feel
which you do so well, finding anempowerment, embracing layers.
Your journey has LED you to thispoint.
Talk to me in your own personal life what that has done to your

(01:02:10):
for your relationship with yourself as well as your
relationship with other people because these tools you use are
are work in both the workplace and in our relationships.
And so talk to me about that foryou and the impact on you
yourself so. As the two I used to be really,
really bad at conflict. I just want to put that out

(01:02:31):
there into the universe. I own it completely.
Oh my God, I used to be really bad.
We. Work in the things that we need
the most help on. I swear we do.
So really understanding that, OK, I really suck at this and,
and how am I going to move forward and how I'm going to
make this better. And the more I learn that

(01:02:52):
conflict is everywhere. Conflict is happening all the
time. Even if you don't realize it,
you know, getting the wrong coffee from the barista, you're
in conflict. You know, it's happening all the
time. And most of us deal with it
without even thinking about it, without having that emotional
hit. How do I make that happen?
And so moving from a point of being frightened to talk to

(01:03:13):
people, being frightened to say the wrong things, saying the
wrong things, because I finally got the courage to say, oh, no,
that was bad. And moving from there.
And it's definitely helped with the anxiousness and the stress
and the blood pressure that thatkind of goes along with it.
The more grace I had, the easierit was to engage in the

(01:03:36):
conflict. The more I took the events as
lessons learned as opposed to punishments for myself that I
made a mistake and I'm being punished.
The more lessons I took from it,the easier it was to iterate to
the next level, which gained confidence, which brought me
into a different career, which brought me to a point where a

(01:03:58):
lifelong dream of writing a bookactually became a reality.
Where I was willing to reach outand build the relationships for
people to help me. Even though we had different
ideas. My literary coach and I, we, we,
we got into it. I'm not going to lie.
Well, I don't like your idea. And you like that.
What do you think of which? Yeah, we were.

(01:04:18):
And I still have a really excellent relationship with
them. And it's not that the conflict
broke the relationship. The conflict burst a product.
It burst my passion project. And without that conflict, I
don't think I would have gotten to where I needed to be.
And and again, that that comes back to that.
What are my lessons? What am I learning?

(01:04:39):
Yes, I messed up that chapter, giving myself the grace to go
back into it again. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it would be, would have
been so easy to put down the idea of writing a book so many
times, so many times. But I'm going to have the
conflict. It's not total garbage.
I'm not being punished. I have the grace to fix it.

(01:05:00):
Yeah, to move on to the next level.
I love how you talked about punish, seeing it as punishments
versus learnings and lessons. That's really a powerful switch
because when you can see it in that learnings and lessons
versus punishments, you can start seeing choices, you can
start feeling like you can startfeeling like you're not stuck.

(01:05:21):
And that is a very important flip to switch in your mind and
how you view that and the power of the mind in that.
On your on your relationship side, outside of workplaces and
work projects, how have you seenthis manifest itself in your
relationships? So from a personal level,

(01:05:43):
definitely when it was let's avoid conflict, let's do this.
I'm I'm pretty sure that led to my first divorce.
I'm not calling one of many things.
Sure, but no, that's a big component of a relationship.
Very much so. And and we did not fight well.
We did not have conflict. Well, moving into the next

(01:06:06):
relationship with OK, everything's copacetic.
We're just not gonna fight at all.
And to not let's have these conflicts to let's talk it out.
And as I've seen that evolution over 20 years, 25, Oh my God,
very long. Time as I've.
Seen that evolution in that relationship it it's led to at

(01:06:28):
least on my side and I can't speak for them, but it's led to
my ability to see them as a morecomplete more autonomous human
being than when I did when we first married.
It's like, OK, so there's the partner, this is what you know,
this is great and this is them and you know, the the depth of
understanding of another human being.
When I have the grace to accept I've made some mistakes and

(01:06:52):
willingness to learn and and recognize and give the grace to
them as well that yeah, so great.
We didn't show up quite right. How are we going to do this?
We move forward and being willing to to put the effort
into the grace. And I mean, there, every
relationship has the hiccups and, and man, if I had some

(01:07:13):
hiccups, but sitting with it andbeing able to say no, the grace,
I'm going to, I'm going to hold on to the grace.
I could flush this relationship so easily, but I'm going to hold
on to the grace. Yeah, yeah.
We're going to see if we can move through this, you know,
made all the difference in the world.
Yeah, I bet you hear a lot when you're talking to people about

(01:07:34):
communication, the importance ofI statements when you're
communicating what you're experiencing, is that something
that you see and your work as a important part of instead of you
did, you should have, you didn't, versus the way I'm
experiencing this is X. Is that something that comes up

(01:07:54):
in when you're working with people?
Very much so. So even with just the language
of how to do the Oculus out how to do The Who, I feel that I
think that I saw that I experienced becomes a a game
changer takes the heat out of it.
This also talks in the agency. You made me so angry.
You did that to me. I don't have control over my own

(01:08:16):
life. We're in that victim stance.
Life is happening to me. Once we're moving towards more
of the I statements, we end up being more of a participant in
our own life as opposed to having life happen to us.
We're we're participating a little bit more.
It's like, no, we're we're here.This is happening.

(01:08:37):
I'm angry, but they didn't make me angry.
The next step in agency is leading your own life.
I am making the choice to do this.
I made the choice to do this. So there I, I see it as 3 levels
and I'm sure there's so many other models, but I see it as 3
levels. You know, that victim of life,
that participants in life and then the leader of life.

(01:08:59):
When we slide up and down the scale, there are sometimes where
we're all going to sit down at the victim's side going, why did
this happen? And we're all going to slide
back up and down, really depending.
But the more you can sit in the participant to leader level, the
less stress you're going to to feel because you'll feel more
agency, you'll feel more empowered.
Yeah, and that leads to that, back to that emotional, mental,

(01:09:23):
physical health piece we were talking about earlier.
This all ties into that. So good.
Oh my gosh, so many good resources today.
We're we're getting ready to wrap up here.
Name 5 activities that nourish you.
I have activities that nourish me.
I'm a visual artist, so paintingfor sure.

(01:09:43):
I do love a good drawing, just slapping colour down on
something. So I'm one of those those folks,
those adult colouring books. It, it just provides an outlet.
I am a Kemper. I live out by the mountains in
the summer, particularly I live in Canada, so there's a lot of
snow right now. I probably don't want to go in

(01:10:04):
the mountains today. Am I eating it?
Yeah, not tonight. So.
So heading over to the hoods andand, you know, living in the
mountains, you've got a lot of dead spots.
So. Oh, no, my phone doesn't work.
Come on again. I'm just, no, I'm unplugged.
I am done and, and forming that connection with my partner and

(01:10:29):
feeding into that, that primary relationship and, and I do have
children and making sure that I'm, I'm present for them,
understanding that there's more to life than than the work
piece. There's more to life than the
passion project and really connecting with that core
foundation of my family. Well and right?
Honestly what a great gift your what you've learned about

(01:10:51):
communication and those resources and skills are for
your kids and they might not understand it now I've got 3
grown children. They eventually get there, but
what a powerful tool for them toreceive.
So I have children ranging in ages from 9 to 28.

(01:11:12):
I, I, I, you know. Oops, 28.
When I. Look at the 28 year old and I
look at the 26 year old and I see how they manage conflict and
I see how they communicate and Isee how they interact.
It's like, OK, I did OK. Yeah.
My my 9 year old could join the UN tomorrow and leave them all

(01:11:34):
in the dust. The negotiations for emotional
intelligence on that shot. He is.
He is 9 when he gets to 16. I am in so much trouble.
It's like, Oh no, I taught them too soon.
Yeah, yeah. This child can negotiate.
So just seeing the differences that even showing up as a parent

(01:11:57):
and seeing how my ability to communicate, my ability to
manage conflict has impacted my subsequently my children's
ability. So it sounds like I'm
experimenting on my children. That's not the case, but just
seeing that that. They that they pick up on what
they see, you know, I mean, if our words don't match our
actions, then they wouldn't havepicked up on that.

(01:12:17):
So I wanted to bring that up because I think that's really
powerful and it's such an important skill for this
generation. I mean, I'm a, I'm a Gen.
Xer 2 and I've got millennials and Gen.
ZS. I'm like, we might be OK because
they are much better at listening, talking and working
through conflict than we are. Maybe we have some hope in the

(01:12:38):
world. That's what I'm I'm holding on
to. So that's a really powerful
piece of this. So thank you for sharing that. 5
words on how you want to feel the next six months.
Impassioned. Peaceful.

(01:12:58):
Yes, those can coexist. Impassioned, peaceful, engaged,
relaxed and satisfied. Really good.
I like that and I like you pointed out that those can
engage together because they really can use many of the tools
we talked about today. Speaking of tools, tell people
where they can find you, how they can follow you, get your

(01:13:20):
book. All of this will be on our
website on our resources page atembracinglayers.com.
So no worries, listeners, you'llhave access to this, but I want
to give Kat a chance to share that right now as well.
Absolutely the best place to getin contact with me with all the
other links to everything else is on my website at
smartconflictbook.com. So smartconflictbook.com, all

(01:13:43):
one word. You can find my LinkedIn on
there. You can find I'm on Instagram.
That was that was, that was, that was, that was, that was
hard to learn. I can do this.
You can get my book on Amazon, Smart conflict, turning disputes
into growth opportunities. So that is out in the world as

(01:14:06):
well. It's contains a lot of the tools
we've been talking about today, talks about connecting past to
present to future. It's got the Oculus owl in
there. So if you didn't have time to
run it down or you're listening to the podcast in your car, you
can you can flag it all in there, along with a lot of other
things. Yeah, and your websites full of
resources, you've got videos on there and, and, and statements
from people you've worked with. There's a lot of great resources

(01:14:28):
there, Cat. We could have talked all day
about this. This is such an important
component for people to have in their toolbox understanding
with, to feel like it's accessible to them and something
that they can do well in the world that we live in today and
the way we engage with each other.

(01:14:50):
So thank you for this work that you do, for trusting yourself to
move and identify this niche, and for how you show up in the
world and for being here with metoday and sharing these
wonderful resources. People out there, if you're
listening, if conflict is something that makes you quiver,
go to these resources that cat has and get it and think about

(01:15:14):
your why behind it. Unpack whether your fears are
based in truth or or what's actually happening here.
I think that it can be so helpful for us when we can
engage in this in a healthy way.It creates healthy work
environments. It creates healthy
relationships, healthy neighborhoods, a healthy world.

(01:15:34):
If we can all learn how to engage in this in an authentic,
healthy, empathetic, respectful way.
And Cat has great resources to help us do that.
But thank you so much for your time today.
I appreciate everything that youshared.
Thank you so much for having me,Melissa.
It's been a great conversation. You bet All right, everybody,
don't be afraid. Don't have to be afraid.

(01:15:56):
Don't let this get in the way ofliving the life that you want to
live and communicating that to those around you.
I I think that has so much powerin the our ability to embrace
our layers and live the authentic, healthy well life we
want to live. So think about that.
Take these resources with you and have a great week.

(01:16:20):
Hello, Melissa Crook here. Thank you so much for joining us
on the field podcast today. Finding empowerment, Embracing
Layers. I hope you found today's
framework and resources supportive and informative.
To learn more about all that we offer here at the Embracing
Layers Network, visit embracinglayers.com.

(01:16:42):
You can go to our contact form to schedule me as a speaker for
your next conference, workshop, or seminar.
You can go to our book page to order our book.
The Jessica Garrison, our wonderful and talented writer
and author authored with my support and engage with this
framework in written form with your journal or in a book club

(01:17:05):
with other women inviting them on this journey with you.
You can look at our resources page for all of the helpful and
insightful resources our guests offer and share.
You can find the schedule for our weekly together we feel
women's panel conversations thatwe're holding each Monday on our
YouTube channel and you can findthe links to all the spaces and

(01:17:27):
places. You can then follow engage with
us on social media and join our engagements that are happening
on our sub SAT site. There is also a donation page
where you can donate to support our work to ensure we can
continue to bring you these incredible guests, conversations
and support. Thanks again for joining me this

(01:17:50):
week. Share with your friends and give
us a review on your favorite listening platform.
Your feedback helps us ensure we're bringing you the content
that will best support you and having an empowered Embracing
Layers journey. Take good care and thanks for
giving us some of your valuable time today.
We truly appreciate you so deeply.

(01:18:17):
Embracing Layers. Yeah, we get to, we get to feel.