October 8, 2025 • 50 mins
Two writers who love fandom and hate sloppy endings sit down to unpack how Supernatural morphed from a gritty monster-of-the-week into a 15-season cultural juggernaut. We talk about why the Winchesters became comfort TV, how the show’s self-aware humor and meta episodes (hello, The French Mistake and Fan Fiction) built trust, and the parasocial magic that Jared, Jensen, and Misha nurtured through cons, charity, and behind-the-scenes chaos. If you’ve ever stayed with a show for the banter more than the plot, you’ll feel seen.
We also wade straight into the Destiel debate: the soldier-and-angel chemistry, the slow-burn subtext that launched a hundred thousand AO3 fics, and the heartbreak of a confession with no payoff. From queerbaiting to the kill-your-gays trope, we break down why that ending stung—and what storytellers can learn from it. This is a masterclass in UST, reader trust, and how archetypes thrive when you complicate them: grumpy/sunshine, cynic/naif, power/mercy. We pull craft takeaways you can use today, including a simple “one beat early” scene strategy to hook readers between chapters.
Beyond canon, we celebrate the fandom’s resilience: how community, memes, and fix-it fiction repaired what the finale fractured. Expect practical writing insights, fandom lore, and a few irreverent detours that feel like late-night con hallway chats. Hit play if you care about Supernatural, storytelling, or the delicate art of delivering on a long-promised slow burn.
Enjoyed this one? Subscribe, leave a review, and share with your favorite hunter or angel. Then hop into our Discord or Patreon to drop your hottest SPN take and your best Destiel gif.
Want the uncut chaos + bonus episodes? Join us inside the cult at Patreon.com/TheBurnedOutMuse. Or find everything else (Discord, socials, freebies) at linktr.ee/theburnedoutmuse.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
No, okay.
Now we're good.
All right.
So, but yeah.
We're not even on camera.
See me.
I know.
God, that's the worst part.
Is who and your mom was talkingabout how we're always looking
(00:21):
at ourselves when we areFaceTiming.
Yeah, don't you?
Especially now that I know Imake all these stupid fucking
faces.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Yeah.
My husband said to me one timeon a face on a video chat, I
have a question for you.
Who's the big picture right nowand who's the little picture?
And I said, I think you know theanswer.
Who is the big picture?
SPEAKER_01 (00:39):
You're the visual whole.
I'm the prize.
Sir, I'm always the big picture.
SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
Yes, exactly.
Well, what are we talking abouttoday?
Oh, should we do the intro?
Oh, hang on.
Wait, tell me what we're talkingabout and then we'll do the
intro.
Am I?
We're talking aboutsupernatural.
SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (00:53):
All of a sudden it just started doing these weird
little lines.
You know, when you see somebodytalking and it shows the yeah,
all of a sudden you disappearedand it was just the I could see
you talking, but I couldn't seeyou.
SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
I disintegrated.
I am now but a voice.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
You're the voice in the machine.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
The least favorite thing of me talking.
Well, no, you know what?
People are listening to us talk.
So let me not say that.
And you are listening, it turnsout.
SPEAKER_01 (01:21):
Yeah, no shit.
We're up to over 1300 downloads.
Wait, we we haven't done theintro.
Well, I'm talking about thisbecause this is gonna be all of
our extra for the podcast or forthe Patreon.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Patreons like to hear us.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Gibble gabble.
Oh my gosh, I know.
And I didn't edit any of thestuff that I put up on Patreon.
So they got every like, um, huh?
Us repeating ourselves, it's sobad.
I feel so sorry for them.
(02:00):
I never realized how much I saylike, like, like.
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
I'm like, uh, see, like.
I was like, why do I keep sayinglike?
And then I was like, stop sayinglike.
Um, you know what I mean?
That's us.
We drag our vowels too, it turnsout, because I tried to listen
to pop-ups, but I can't listento my own voice.
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
Because I'm like, and then uh like remember when I
used to make fun of Paris Hiltonbecause she lazy talked?
Like, that's me.
Oh my god, it's so hot.
Like now that's us.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Yeah, I'm getting whiter somehow every day.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
I don't know how it keeps it in this economy.
I didn't even think I could getany whiter.
Look at me.
I'm practically see-through.
Yet somehow I'm getting white.
Yeah, but you're not crackingthough.
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
I don't know.
We're skin.
I'm starting to I'm starting tosee it.
No, you're doing great.
SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
Well, yes, we're talking about supernatural.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
Have you I don't know much about it.
I do have a general idea ofsupernatural.
I get that they're brothers,there's a hot angel guy, but
they're not gay for each other.
We'll save it for the podcast.
All right.
SPEAKER_01 (03:14):
So I brought notes this time because I don't want
to forget nothing.
SPEAKER_00 (03:20):
We're getting better, guys.
I know look at us.
We're a professional podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (03:26):
I mean, we used to do this.
We used to do this three or fourin one day.
But no one was only 40 peoplewere listening.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
I know the pressure was really off back then.
unknown (03:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Why did we tell anybody we were actually making
this podcast?
SPEAKER_00 (03:41):
We did, and they were, that's nice, sweetheart.
SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
But now I have people who careabout what I have to say.
Weird.
And I'm along for the ride.
Okay, so I will officiallyintroduce us 321.
Hi, everybody.
Welcome back to the FeralPhantoms Podcast.
(04:04):
This is episode number four.
And today we will be talkingabout supernatural.
I'm only James, gay romanceauthor, well, writer of gay
romances, bisexual author, andguru, educator, okay, mother of
dragons.
No.
SPEAKER_00 (04:24):
And I'm here with Shannon Iselle, who is I have
very far less attributes to myname, which I don't think that's
true.
I am her bodyguard.
I'm her personal assistant.
I'm your bookshipper, customerservice lady.
Shop manager.
Shop manager, there we go.
I don't know what whatever shewants me to be.
(04:46):
The podcast house, she calls meand I say, Yes, mommy, whatever
you want.
SPEAKER_01 (04:49):
She stands next to me at signings and glares at
people and says things like, Youcould take a picture with her,
but don't tag her in it.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
Yeah.
And then she's like, Why do youkeep telling people to take
pictures with me?
And I'm like, because they wantto take your pictures with you.
Which is so weird.
SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Imagine if my teenage self could have ever
heard that people want to takepictures with me, they wouldn't
believe it.
They wouldn't believe it.
Yeah, I still don't believe itat all.
SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
Teenage U is a bitch.
So I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
So teenage you was a bitch too.
Okay.
Let's not get it twisted.
We were all none of us made itthrough our teen years without
being absolute nightmares.
I think some people did.
But I think we're just trying tomake ourselves feel better.
Nobody in our family.
I'm sure other people were nice.
We were not nice.
(05:39):
Some people loved their teenageyears.
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
I don't know who those people are, but someone I
just caught myself sayingeditors.
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
Yeah, don't worry.
I get rid of all of those.
They probably the people whosee, listen to us.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
Like ah, like ah, like ah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:55):
Like, like, like, like the people who listen to us
on the on any other platform butPatreon, they don't have to deal
with all the likes and the ums.
So don't worry.
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
SPEAKER_00 (06:07):
Still sign up for Patreon though.
SPEAKER_01 (06:09):
Yeah, please sign up for Patreon.
There's all kinds of good stuffon there.
Lots of likes and ums.
Lots of likes and ums.
And if that's not your thing,you could go to the Discord
where you don't have to hear us,but you can still talk about fan
stuff.
Yeah, this isn't required.
It's not required.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
And a lot of you are listening, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
And a lot of you are signing up for Patreon, which is
even crazier.
And thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
Thank you, Daddy.
Oh, we thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (06:33):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (06:35):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
Thank you, Daddy.
Thank you, Daddy.
SPEAKER_00 (06:38):
What's are we talking about today?
What are we talking about?
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
We are talking about supernatural.
I even wore my Winchester shirt.
Supernatural shirt.
So here we go.
I'm gonna be so self-consciousabout it now.
Editors, that's you.
Yeah.
So Supernatural lasted for 15seasons.
SPEAKER_00 (07:01):
Jesus.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
Which is crazy.
And I don't know how many peopleknow this, but it was only
supposed to be five.
When Eric Kripke originallycreated Supernatural, he said
five seasons and we're done.
And then I think it's seasonnumber four.
I think four is when weintroduced Castiel, and then it
(07:23):
shifted the whole projecttrajectory of the show.
It used to be kind of a monsterof the week thing, kind of like
how the X-Files used to beMonster of the Week, and then
all of a sudden it became aboutaliens.
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
Yeah, they like capture supernatural things and
they're hot.
And they're brothers and they'renot gay.
SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
Unless, of course, you're on AO3, in which case
they are very gay.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
They're not even gay for the angel guy.
I only know because the TikTokedits.
They're not gay for the guy.
SPEAKER_01 (07:52):
No, they're definitely gay for the angel.
Dean and Castiel are the Destialship that most people talk
about.
The other ship that most peopletalk about are Sam and Dean
together, which is why they callit Wincest.
Hey, look, I'm not yuckinganybody else.
When Game of Thrones does it,it's fine.
When the Winchester boys do it,it's taboo.
That's because, you know, theWinchester boys aren't rich and
(08:13):
they don't have dragons.
So there's no dragons?
I was gonna watch it, but ifthere's no dragons.
No, there's no dragons.
But yeah, it went from Monsterof the Week to Saving the World.
I started to watch Supernaturalwhen it first came out.
I watched the first threeepisodes, and then it's alright.
unknown (08:32):
You know?
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
WB.
I think it was the WB at first,and then it became the CW.
So it's it was on CW.
Which is so funny.
CW.
God, they have some of thecraziest shows, but they really
knew how to turn it out.
Yeah, they really did.
We but yeah, I watched the firstfew episodes.
I was not that into it.
(08:53):
Mostly because I knew JaredPadalecki from Gilmore Girls.
Who's that?
Jared Padalecki is the one whoplays Sam, the tall one.
He's like 6'6.
Okay.
Yeah.
And he played Rory's boyfriendin Gilmore Girls.
And not for nothing, but he waskind of a douchebag.
SPEAKER_00 (09:13):
So oh that that's our first boyfriend, right?
The one that wanted to likedress up like a 1950s.
SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
Yeah, and she loses her virginity to him when he's
married.
So crazy.
Yeah.
We'll get into Gilmore Girlsanother day because my mother
was obsessed with Gilmore girls.
Yeah.
But yeah, it's okay.
And you know how I am aboutsupernatural shows.
I love anything supernatural.
Your mom and I used to watchX-Files.
We used to watch that Americangothic show that nobody
remembers existing except me andmy mom.
SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
I remember it.
I was a child.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
I went back and tried to watch it.
I found it on YouTube, and it isso bad.
It is so bad.
It is cringe-worthy bad.
And not in a twilight way, butin a how did this get greenlit
by Hollywood way?
SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
It was so I remember they were southern and they
killed the little girl, right?
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Yeah.
What Salem was is what theywanted to be.
You know what I mean?
The show Salem, which was sodark.
Mick loved that show, but it wastoo raunchy for me.
It was like too gory.
I couldn't get past all theyeah.
No, sorry.
I I don't have the stomach forit anymore now that I'm not
nursing.
I don't just don't have thestomach for it.
But yeah, I wasn't really intoSupernatural until I don't know,
(10:26):
10 years ago.
I went back and I was bored andI was at home and they were
doing reruns.
And I just started watching thereruns, and I realized how
fucking funny that show is.
It is really one of the best,it's the most memed show ever.
(10:48):
They say Supernatural has a giftfor everything, and they're not
lying.
And if you ever have been onTumblr, it doesn't matter what
fandom, it doesn't matter what'shappening, there will always be
a supernatural fan who's got agif, a meme, something that fits
that occasionally.
SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
I've seen him around and I'm not in it.
I've seen him.
I know a lot about the show.
I've never watched it.
SPEAKER_01 (11:11):
Yeah, it's yeah, because it's just one of those
things that's now ingrained inculture.
Anybody who's our age definitelyknows it.
SPEAKER_02 (11:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:22):
Yeah.
So I started watching it, and itbecomes a comfort show.
And I think that's why it lastedas long as it did, because it
got to a point where I didn'teven care what the storyline was
that week.
I only cared that I got to seethem and I got to hear their
snarky comments and their stupidlittle jokes.
(11:43):
And then I started getting intothe behind the scenes stuff.
Because if you thinkSupernatural's funny, their
bloopers and their behind thescenes are crying.
You're laughing so hard.
Because it's three guys who arebest friends in real life.
And they get to goof off all daylong in a job where they just
(12:06):
get to go and hang out withtheir buddies.
So it really didn't matter tothem what the story lacked was.
Because they got to good workand prank each other.
SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
It makes them more wanting to watch when people are
involved in that.
Because I know I like that.
Like when I know they'reenjoying what they're doing,
that makes me want to watch.
SPEAKER_01 (12:26):
You feel like you're part of it when you see the
behind the scenes.
And I think that's why withauthors, they say that
parasocial relationships aresuper important.
When your readers like you as aperson, they will support you in
all your endeavors.
They'll download 1300 times justto make sure that your podcast
(12:49):
does well, just because theylike you as a person.
Yeah, it's true.
A lot of people don't want to beon camera like me, and a lot of
people don't want to go to cons,they don't want to be seen.
And I get that, but meeting yourreaders and interacting with
them, even just on Patreon.
I use my Patreon like a diarysometimes.
(13:10):
If you saw some of theself-absorbed whining I do to my
patrons, and they're just girl,oh God, oh yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:21):
When you've never lost into your Patreon, I'm
scared of them.
SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
When I found out I was on that banned book list, I
was just like, guys, listen.
I really just like unloaded on.
SPEAKER_00 (13:35):
How did I get on that list?
I just simply let everyone knowhow much I fucking hate MAGA
every day of my life.
And they put me on a list.
SPEAKER_01 (13:45):
And I was really proud of that list until like
the death threat stuff started.
And then I was like, you know,being on a list kind of sucks.
SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
Oh no, the Nazis don't like me.
I know what side of history I'llbe on.
SPEAKER_01 (13:57):
Remember when we all agreed that we hated Nazis?
Wasn't that a good time?
SPEAKER_00 (14:01):
Yeah, that was bipartisan.
unknown (14:03):
Bipartisan.
SPEAKER_01 (14:05):
It used to be the one thing we could all agree on.
SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
Not a political podcast, by the way, but it
always does a little well.
SPEAKER_01 (14:12):
We don't like Nazis.
Well, when you talk aboutsupernatural, you kind of have
to get a little politicalbecause there's nobody more
political than Misha Collins whoplays Castel.
Oh my God.
I once had a dream I was marriedto him, and I woke up so sad
that I wasn't.
And I'm not lying.
I was depressed when I woke upand realized that that had just
(14:33):
been a dream.
He's my ideal for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
I wonder if he had the same dream.
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
No, no, I did not.
SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
I did not think Misha Collins was at home
dreaming about a fat red.
No, I totally find her.
You're his Cinderella.
He's looking for you.
SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
Yeah, I can't imagine what it is he's trying
to put on.
My big ass feet.
Well, actually, my feet areprobably dainty compared to the
other girls in our family, butyou know, we won't be able to do
that.
SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
Well, I like how you didn't specifically call me out.
Well, because Shannon Mikhailahas big feet too.
SPEAKER_01 (15:06):
I always tell her you can find yeah, you can find
your shoes in the drag queenstores.
They make big size shoes,especially high heels.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
You're a everybody stop supporting her.
She's a foot shamer.
Heard of fat shaming?
What have you heard of?
Foot shaming.
Yeah.
I could control how big my feetgot.
I would fall over if I didn'thave big feet.
I'm six foot tall.
Not a foot podcast, by the way.
SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
No, you have to pay for extra for that.
If you want to see our feet, youcan join the Patreon and request
it.
We're not above that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:42):
My PayPal is.
SPEAKER_01 (15:45):
But yeah, a couple of weeks ago, Amisha Collins did
a dramatic reading of that Trumpletter to Epstein on his look
that up when we get off.
Yeah, no, he totally did.
He's very, very political.
But another reason that it wentso well, and again, it's that
parasocial relationship.
Misha Collins had a dedicatedphone number where supernatural
(16:11):
fans could text him if they werehaving a bad day.
SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
Swear to God, he had your K-pop boys.
SPEAKER_01 (16:18):
Yeah.
But he would talk directly topeople.
He would talk to them.
And when they started charginghim for the phone calls for the
longest time, he paid it.
He just paid it.
But then when it got to be toomuch, he crowdsourced the money
to keep the number.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
Because he didn't want him right now.
SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
I don't know.
I don't know.
I haven't looked it up.
But if anybody could, if youcould get a hold of any
celebrity, it would probably beMisha Collins.
SPEAKER_00 (16:47):
I text Misha.
I don't know.
1-800 Misha.
SPEAKER_01 (16:54):
But he's got a really interesting backstory
because for the longest time, hewas actually living in a tent
with his wife while while hebuilt their house.
So like by hand?
Yeah.
And he only wore clothes thatfans sent him.
(17:15):
He didn't like go out and buyfancy clothes.
He just wears that's whysometimes you'll see him and
he's wearing jeans that haveholes in them because he's been
wearing them for so long.
He doesn't care.
He doesn't care about fashion.
He doesn't care about any ofthat stuff.
He's very much, he has GishWest, uh Gish Wes, which is or
Gish, Gish Wish.
Oh my gosh.
It basically it's a scavengerhunt, a global scavenger hunt
(17:38):
that he puts on.
And you can create teams and youcan participate by doing all of
the little things that theyrequire of you.
And it's a charity thing that hedoes.
And it blew up into this hugething for years.
And I don't know if he stilldoes it, but for a long time he
did it.
And it was like the greatAmerican scavenger hunt or
(17:59):
something like that.
And at the end, do you find him?
Oh, I'm which I would havesigned up.
I would have signed up if thatwas the case.
SPEAKER_00 (18:08):
Bring it back, Misha.
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
I didn't know.
But yeah, Misha Collins is hiswife actually wrote a book on
his ex-wife now, wrote a book onswinging.
Okay.
Yeah.
So one time Charlie No.
Charlie Sheen once made thisbecause he's such a scumbag,
Charlie Sheen, but he made thiscomment.
(18:30):
I wrote the book on swinging orwhatever.
And Misha Collins responded,actually, my wife wrote the book
on swinging.
SPEAKER_00 (18:38):
The link to her book.
So they're swingers?
So there's a chance.
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
There's a chance.
Well, they're divorced, so he'ssingle as far as I know.
Though he's been hanging outwith this guy who's been his
friend for a long time, who kindof just blew up.
He had a film that went, I thinkthe Cannes Film Festival.
So like he's kind of beenhanging out a lot with this one
particular guy.
And he hasn't really made itlike a secret that he doesn't
(19:03):
seem to really care about gendermuch.
He's very LGBTQ friendly.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
But ally.
SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
And possibly adjacent.
He might just be the LGBTQ.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (19:16):
Not a Misha Collins podcast, by the way.
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
No, it's not.
But I do love Misha, so I'mgoing to talk about him because
I just I adore him and I lovehow he actually cares about the
people who come to the cons andeverything.
But honestly, Jerry Padaleckiand Jensen Accles are the same
way.
They almost invented these showcons because Supernatural has
(19:40):
cons that is just forSupernatural fans.
And the fans put it together andthen they get the actors to come
and be on panels.
And Jensen Accles singssometimes.
Amisha Collins sings sometimes.
They oh can you still hear me?
SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
I can hear you.
SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
They disconnected your video.
Oh, there you are.
It says I'm unstable.
Oh no, my connection isunstable.
SPEAKER_00 (20:07):
Oh.
SPEAKER_01 (20:08):
I was like, I know, but hey.
SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
We really need reminding right now.
We know.
My therapist says I'm fine.
Apparently, join the Patreon andthey know all about it.
They're like, quick, downloadthe podcast.
Download it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
That's my personal Patreon, my only James Patreon,
by the way.
You don't have to listen to mewhine on the Phantom Podcast.
What about the Pharaoh Phantoms?
Okay, you can listen to Shannonwhine on the Pharaoh Phantoms
podcast page.
I can still see you even.
But yeah, so they really createdthat whole parasocial
relationship where they didn'thave a lot of boundaries with
(20:44):
their fans.
They would their fans would comeup to them and be like, Can we
prom pose?
You know, and they'd be like,sure.
And they'll do the prom posewhere they're like chest to back
and have their arms around them.
SPEAKER_00 (20:55):
Sometimes they put this on TikTok.
SPEAKER_01 (20:58):
Yeah.
Sometimes it would be Jared andJensen, and then them in the
middle.
Silly little things like agirl's husband would stand off
to the side and she'd be beingdipped by Jensen Ackles and he
would have a mad face.
It was just really funny andcute.
And they tell Jensen Ackles isthe best storyteller.
Well, him and Misha Collinsboth.
They tell these stories, realstories, about things that
(21:21):
happen in their lives, butthey're just such good
storytellers that even when itsounds almost self-absorbed,
you're so engrossed in the waythey tell the stories that
you're just okay, and then whathappened?
And they're funny.
And you can get away with somuch when you're funny.
You know that.
I know that.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
And they're hot.
They're funny and hot.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Jensen Ackles is absolutely ideal.
He is beautiful.
Misha Collins is still my numberone, but Jensen Ackles is not
bad.
Not bad at all.
And I'm sure people are in thehome screaming, how dare you!
He's punching me out right now.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
No, fuck you, Misha.
SPEAKER_01 (21:57):
But Jensen and Jared, from the time they
started the podcast, they livedtogether for the longest time
until they got married to theirrespective partners.
SPEAKER_00 (22:05):
They were roommates.
SPEAKER_01 (22:08):
They were roommates.
And there was definitely a lotof talk in the beginning.
That's weird.
But they say they're brothers.
They both are from Texas.
They're both, you know.
But then Jared gets in trouble alot for running his mouth.
He has a tendency to say shitthat really pisses people off.
And that goes to the Destialshipper thing.
(22:33):
I don't know when Destielofficially kicked off.
Obviously, it had to be after heshowed up in season four,
clearly.
I didn't notice it at first, butwhen I started, like I said, I
was a steric fanfic reader.
We're gonna talk about Teen Wolfnext, so prepare yourselves,
guys, because I got a lot tosay.
Google it.
I don't know.
(22:53):
But he they really leaned in tothe Castile Dean thing because
it was easy to do.
SPEAKER_00 (23:08):
Uh-oh.
You gotta tap your mic, baby.
SPEAKER_01 (23:11):
God damn it.
This stupid mic, I hate it.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
But yeah, stop trying to put it down your
throat, and then we'll be okay.
SPEAKER_01 (23:21):
And this is why we are not a visual podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (23:25):
Not a blowjob podcast yet.
SPEAKER_01 (23:27):
But again, for money.
There's a patrons.
But yeah, so the steric fandomled me to the Destial fandom.
And I read some of the fanfics,and at first I was like, oh, I
get it.
People are fantasizing about it,whatever.
But then when I went back and Irewatched the show, like for the
900th time, I was like, oh no,this is deliberate subtext.
(23:51):
100%.
They leaned into this Dean andCast thing.
And this is what you have to becareful with when it comes to
the unresolved sexual tension,which is great.
The 90s lived for unresolvedsexual tension.
It's always like Mulder andScully from X-Files.
We we spent what nine seasonsbeing like, are they ever gonna
(24:13):
fuck?
What the hell?
SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
Um and so it was good, but if they don't get that
payoff at some point, it justespecially when it comes to two
men, then it's just queerbaiting.
And unfortunately, we get that alot in a lot of different shows.
And especially it wassupernatural, where it's Dean's
character is a super macho,extra manly, got it, always a
(24:37):
womanizer, always never wants tobe in a relationship for long.
And I don't know if you've knownany closeted gay men.
There's a lot of yeah, there's alot of similarities in how a lot
of these guys behave when itcomes to women because they're
trying to compensate for thefact that they're gay and they
don't want to be.
(24:58):
But yeah, so they just leanedmore and more into it to the
point where they actuallystarted getting in on the joke.
They have an episode called TheFrench Mistake, where Sam and
Dean get shoved into their reallives.
And so in the episode, thereJensen and Misha and Jared, you
(25:22):
see their real wives, you seelike the real people who are
behind the show, Robert Singerand all these people.
Everybody's playing themselves,but in an alternate universe.
But the alternate universe istheir real lives.
Okay.
And the whole show is anover-exaggeration of their real
lives.
Jared Padalecki and his wife areraising emus, which is not true.
(25:45):
But like, and the whole joke iswow, you're a real douchebag in
this life.
They're constantly making fun ofeach other and their real lives.
But then they have anotherepisode way in the future called
fanfiction, and they go to ahigh school that's putting on a
supernatural musical.
(26:07):
And in the show, Sam or Dean andCass end up together.
SPEAKER_00 (26:15):
I love that.
So they knew it.
They knew it.
I have a question for you.
Is there any actual romanticinterests while they're playing
this up in the background?
Are these boys cracking chicksor what are they doing?
SPEAKER_01 (26:28):
I mean in the show or in real life?
In the show.
There's never any women.
There's in the early seasons,they said get out of here,
girls.
In the early seasons, there wasa few girls that cycled through,
but nobody ever stuck around forlong because they realized that
nobody was in it for the girls.
And they kill off every fuckingwoman in the show.
(26:50):
If you like a girl, she's dead.
Sorry, that's just the rules.
It's very game of thrones.
And there was a huge, hugebacklash when they killed off a
character named Charlie.
This girl.
I can't remember who plays her.
Felicia Day, I think, plays her.
And everybody loved her.
She was a lesbian, she was agamer girl, and she helped them
(27:11):
constantly.
And oh, she was a hacker.
She was just that really coolgirl that everybody wishes they
were, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (27:17):
Yeah, another character, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Yeah.
And they killed her off in theworst conceivable way.
It backfired on them so bad thatthey brought back an alternate
version of her.
SPEAKER_00 (27:25):
Oh, okay.
That's the good thing aboutsupernatural being the name.
We can you can't.
SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
Because they do kill them off so often and then bring
them back with Sam and Dean diedprobably eight times throughout
the whole thing.
I think Cass died three timesand came back.
Bobby dies and comes back.
SPEAKER_00 (27:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
Well, and that's the thing.
At the very end of the show,when people do start dying for
real finale, that's when youkind of go, I can't believe they
ended it like this.
This is such bullshit.
But Supernatural createdfanfiction in a way, and people
are raging right now.
That's not fucking true.
But there's over a hundredthousand Destial fics.
(28:11):
That's a lot of people who wereshipping Cass and Dean together.
SPEAKER_00 (28:17):
And when you watch the show, one of the only things
I knew about the show at thebeginning of this podcast, I was
like, right, the angel and thebrother, they're doing it,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (28:25):
Yeah.
And so when that fanfic episodecame up and they end up
together, and it's two girlsplaying them.
So they're lesbians, but they'replaying Cass and Dean.
And so the girl who's thisreally uptight chick, and she
plays the director, and she's ahigh school girl, and she's just
and one of the lines is well,you can't spell subtext without
(28:49):
butt sex.
I'm like, What?
Yeah, so she lets it hang there,and he's just and so of course
Sam is teasing him through thewhole car ride because he's why
is it Destial and not this?
And why is it not Sam andCastill?
And why is it not Sam?
And then he says, wait till youfind out about the windcest or
(29:09):
something to that effect.
And he's like, I'm sorry, what?
Yeah, no, it's really, reallyfunny.
But it's a musical, so beprepared because they do burst
into song.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
I've been doing it.
I like a good I like a goodsinging moment.
So they became self-awareessentially.
SPEAKER_01 (29:24):
They had no problems breaking the fourth wall.
And I think when you do thatwell, your audience will just go
along with you.
If you've built that trust, youknow.
And I think they were just happythey even acknowledged the whole
Destill thing.
And they played it up at consand stuff.
Misha Collins and Jensen Acclesare very good sports about it.
(29:46):
They think it's great, they takepictures together, they do all
of the things, especially ifit's charity.
They're very down to helpwhoever.
And that's kind of where thingsgot a little dicey because Jared
Padalecki.
Came out very strongly aboutDean's not gay, Cass isn't gay,
not overtly saying fuck Desti L,but you know, is this the
(30:10):
writer?
SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
Is he the writer?
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
Sam is Jared Padelecki is the brother, Sam.
SPEAKER_00 (30:15):
Oh, oh.
Well, no.
He's the one.
SPEAKER_01 (30:17):
Yeah, so come on, sorry to.
Well, no, I'm just I don't wantto piss anybody off, but at the
same time, I want to be honest.
And okay, so the show ends whenCOVID hits.
And because of that, they had alot of restrictions on how they
could film.
And so Misha Collins went to thedirector and was like, I think
(30:44):
when Castile gets killed for thefinal time, he should tell Dean
he loves him, like he's in lovewith him.
And the director was like, Oh, Idon't know if we can do that.
And then he went to Jensen,like, how do you feel about
this?
And he's like, Fuck it, yeah,let's do it.
Great, you know.
So the scene is Cass sacrificeshimself for Dean.
(31:10):
But before he does, he gives aspeech that has everybody in
tears, including Jensen,basically telling him, You're
not the failure your dad saysyou were.
You know, you don't have toprove yourself to anybody.
All the shit that a big toughguy has probably wanted to hear
from their actual father foryears, you know.
And he just gave him permissionto just not be this super macho
(31:34):
dude or whatever.
And then he dies.
He sacrifices himself to saveDean.
And Dean's devastated, but hejust keeps thinking he's gonna
come back, you know.
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
But it it doesn't happen thistime.
And then they just gloss over,what do you call it?
Anticlimactic, you know what Imean?
Here's this big gay, I love you,and then you kill him.
(31:58):
So he does do that.
He says, I love you, Dean.
Well, that's also debatedbecause in the translated
version he says, I love you.
In the non-translated version, Idon't think he actually says the
words exactly, I love you.
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
But it was very clear it was a declaration of
love or whatever, like romanticlove, too.
SPEAKER_01 (32:18):
Very romantic, yeah.
And then it brought up the killyour gaze trope, which is
something that people are sofucking tired of.
And I didn't realize, but killyour gaze is an actual film
thing that this man in the 60screated that said, You can show
(32:42):
deeply flawed characters, andthese are his words, not mine.
So they can be gay, they can bewhores, they can be drug
addicts, but you have to killthem in the end.
They have to be morallypunished.
Should just describe my 20s.
Me too.
Please don't kill me, Mr.
Director.
Yeah, so but they had to die.
They had to so that you couldsay, yes, they live this life,
(33:05):
but it's very immoral and youshouldn't do it.
And then they die.
And then they die.
And this is something that hasbeen going on in film and
television for so long that it'slike people always talk about
queer joy and love victor oryoung royals, like all of these
shows where you get people whoare gay and happy and not dead.
SPEAKER_00 (33:29):
And it's the LGBTQ.
Or in your books, the gays aregonna kill you.
Exactly.
They're coming for you.
You and you, they're gonna getya.
SPEAKER_01 (33:42):
They don't care if you're gay or straight.
If you're a shithead, they'regoing to kill you.
SPEAKER_00 (33:46):
They're going to kill you.
SPEAKER_01 (33:47):
Yeah, they're gonna kill you.
And they my readers demand thatsomebody die at the end of every
book.
More murder.
SPEAKER_00 (33:54):
More murder, book lady.
So the last, right?
SPEAKER_01 (33:58):
The last episode of Supernatural, uh, first off,
Dean, they kill off Dean too, inthe stupidest way fucking
possible.
And that pissed a lot of peopleoff, too.
Because he literally gets shovedagainst some sharp object and
gets impaled and dies.
And after 15 seasons of monsterhunting, he gets taken out by a
(34:18):
rusty fucking nail.
You know, people were, how dareyou?
How dare you do this to DeanWinchester?
But in the last episode, theybring back pretty much
everybody.
They show Sam going on, he getsmarried, he has kids, but you
never see who the wife is, younever really see the kids.
You just see him living to anold age, and then you see them
(34:40):
reuniting, like in heaven orwhatever, but you never see
Cass.
They imply that Cass is there,but you don't see him.
And they said it's because ofCOVID regulations they couldn't
have Misha on the set, yadayada.
And people were, that's weirdbecause you have everybody else
on the set, but you don't haveMisha on the set.
That sort of thing.
And I'm sure there are peopleright now who are gonna listen
(35:00):
to this podcast and be like,you're getting it all wrong.
And if I am, I'm sorry.
I am not an expert by any meanson supernatural.
I am more a casual fan who justhappens to know a lot of the
lore through Tumblr.
SPEAKER_00 (35:14):
But also, don't listen.
But yeah, so Supernatural reallythey figured out a way to make
the show almost secondary to thelove people had for Jared and
(35:39):
Jensen and Misha.
SPEAKER_01 (35:41):
They were willing to support them in almost anything
because again, the show was soself-aware of how ridiculous it
was, and it did get ridiculoustowards the end.
I think there's an episodetitled Chris Angel is a
douchebag.
SPEAKER_00 (36:00):
Is he?
He probably is.
And they just have things thatare just fun, and they know that
we're just not everything has tobe that D.
Exactly.
And don't get me started becauseTaylor Swift just put out Life
of a Showgirl and everyone'shating on it.
And I just want everyone to knowsomething right motherfucking
out.
Is it a little cheesy?
Yes.
Is she saying dick a lot?
Fine, okay.
(36:21):
Let did she write a whole songcalled Wood about Travis
Kelsey's penis?
Yes.
But you can't be a tortured poetforever, everyone.
Okay, you can't.
SPEAKER_01 (36:31):
What happens when you're not depressed anymore?
SPEAKER_00 (36:34):
She has never gotten dick like this before.
She told me her my closepersonal friend Taylor Shook
told me in that song Have y'allever fucked a six foot seven
dude?
Because what?
Um I'm happy for her.
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
I have fucked a six foot seven dude.
I was not at all impressed.
To the point where he knew Iwasn't going to be impressed,
and he tried to warn me inadvance, and I did not take the
warning.
Anyway.
(37:12):
No, it's definitely not.
And I'm sorry if I'm hurting thetwo men who listens feelings.
Not really.
Not a dick podcast, but we'reprobably gonna talk about a lot
of dicks on this podcast, butnot in the literal sense.
SPEAKER_00 (37:27):
My husband barely knows that I'm even on a
podcast, apparently.
So I could talk about thepodcast.
Oh my god, I know.
He was like, oh, are you guyspodcasting again?
I've talked to him at almost atnauseam about it.
Isn't that crazy?
He's like, Yeah, but I wasn'tsure if it was the other podcast
or this podcast.
Yeah.
Not a prelude to my divorcepodcast.
Yet.
SPEAKER_01 (37:47):
Dot dot dot.
SPEAKER_00 (37:48):
Not two divorces.
I can't do it.
I'm not fucking Elizabeth Taylorgoing for my third husband.
My ex is on his fifth wife, soMichael?
SPEAKER_01 (37:58):
Yeah.
Oh, sorry.
The editors.
I don't care.
Fuck him.
I'll give you a social securitynumber.
I still remember it.
Anyway.
But so after Supernatural ended,most fan fiction writers ran to
AO3 to fix the ending.
They were like, you guys suck atthis.
Clearly, we tried to let youhandle it, but you were wrong.
(38:20):
You did it all wrong, so we'regonna fix it.
And they did.
And they wrote amazing likestories about the ending and how
it should have gone.
And they did a such a great jobof fixing it that I almost feel
like they should have just leftit to the fans to write the
ending.
SPEAKER_00 (38:39):
I think fans feel like that about a lot of things.
SPEAKER_01 (38:41):
Yeah, and it we're gonna get into that in the Teen
Wolf episode because the fansdid take over at one point, and
we'll get into that.
But I think we're gonna do aship of the week, which
obviously in this episode wouldbe a segment?
A segment.
SPEAKER_02 (38:59):
A segment?
SPEAKER_00 (39:00):
A segment look at us like a real podcast.
Oh, ship of the week.
I like it.
Break it down for me.
What are we doing?
SPEAKER_01 (39:08):
Well I wanted to discuss the tropes and the
psychology behind it, and it'sthe soldier and the angel.
You know, you've got thegrizzled bad boy and the guy
who's almost too good, theangel, and he becomes more
human.
But the nice thing aboutsupernatural was even the angel
(39:29):
was flawed.
Like he got to a point where hewas, I'm obviously the only
moral person here, so now I haveto be God.
And then he became God, and hebecame very much a not nice god.
Not that the god insupernatural's name is Chuck.
That's definitely God's name.
SPEAKER_00 (39:46):
Yeah, if she was a man, because she's not, but
she's not.
SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
Wait, Chuck is God in Supernatural, and he was a
real dick, and he basicallysaid, I'm done with y'all.
You do whatever the fuck youwant.
You suck.
And he just left everybody tofend for themselves.
So when Misha decides he's gonnabe God, he quickly backslides
into not good guy territory, butthat doesn't last long.
(40:12):
But yeah, so it's the soldierand the angel, and the fact that
Dean is so cynical and Cass isso naive because he's never
lived on Earth.
So everything is completely newto him, and so everything is
literal to him, and that's whatmakes it funny is the
(40:35):
juxtaposition of the cynical guyand the naive one.
It's the sunshine grumpy tropethat everybody loves, it's the
sarcastic one with the broodingone.
It's done over and over again,and we can't get enough of it.
That's why romance is so great.
Because you can beat a tropeinto the ground and people will
(40:57):
thank you for it.
We put this is a trope in ourstories, where anywhere else
they're just oh, tropes.
No, you want to stay away fromthose.
You want to be different, youwant to be unique, you want to
be this.
There's nothing unique ordifferent.
There's just everything underthe sun has been done before.
It's just how you put your ownspin on it now.
SPEAKER_00 (41:14):
People like the banter, and it's the way you
write it, you know.
So not everybody can do it,obviously, because I've read
some bad books.
SPEAKER_01 (41:21):
You know, I mean, I think we've all read some really
bad books, but but I'll stillread it.
unknown (41:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:29):
I took notes last night.
I was gonna be really good aboutthis, but the archetype clash,
the soldier in the angel, andthen the tension again, the
unresolved sexual tension fornine, ten seasons is that's it's
so good because even though youknow they'll never go there, you
(41:50):
go, but what if they did?
You know, what if they did?
And that keeps you on the edgeand it keeps you going.
But I will say if you're awriter and you're going to keep
your two main characters apart,you gotta put them together in
the end.
Because if you do likeSupernatural did and you have a
(42:11):
big love confession and then youkill your character, it's not
gonna go well for you.
And I will tell you this fromjust seeing backlash from other
author friends.
Once you break your reader'strust, you're not getting it
back.
You kill off a favoritecharacter, you don't give them
(42:32):
the happily ever after in aromance, you kill off one of
your characters in a romancenovel.
Isn't that not technically aromance then?
Because there's definitely not,yeah.
There's no that's exactly thethe where everybody was going
with this.
But also, you know, if you're astraight woman, don't use gay
men to like work throughwhatever your fucking issues
are.
Just saying.
(42:53):
So again, if you break areader's trust, you by all means
do the unresolved sexualtension.
If you're especially inromanticy, book two, they don't
even see each other.
All they do is talk about eachother for an entire book, and
then they get back together inbook three.
It's it's a romanticy trope tothis at this point.
Yeah, I'm into it.
(43:13):
Yeah, by all means, but justknow that if you don't get them
together, you're gonna breakyour reader's trust, and then
they're not gonna read anythingelse by you.
Even if you come back and you'relike, guys, I've learned my
lesson.
I will tell you this.
I was, I don't know, maybe 15,and my sister Tammy used to read
all the bodice rippers.
You know, the old schoolhistorical romances.
(43:36):
And I used to read them too,because I used to steal my
sister's mom and mygrandmother's book.
SPEAKER_00 (43:41):
Those covers were scandalous as a child.
Scandalous.
SPEAKER_01 (43:44):
Mother, like one of my f sisters' favorite authors
wrote a book, and the girl wasaccused of being a witch.
And her and the guy, herboyfriend or whatever, the love
interest, are in a wagon andthey are racing towards a cliff.
And Tammy's, oh, at any minute,they're going to not go over the
edge.
And then the writer kills themoff, Felmal and Louise style.
(44:06):
They go off the edge, and that'sthe end of the story, and they
die.
She never picked up another bookby that author.
She was, and she loved thisauthor.
She was devastated.
And she just said, No, neveragain.
Never reading this person again.
They ruined it, they ruinedeverything.
It doesn't matter how famous youare or how much money you make,
(44:26):
if you're not willing to neverwrite another book again, then
don't break your reader's trustby killing your gaze, by not
fulfilling that unresolvedsexual tension, by queer
baiting.
It's going to ruin everythingyou've worked so hard to put
(44:47):
together.
So that's my takeaway from theship of the week is don't fuck
it up, guys.
SPEAKER_00 (44:55):
Don't shit the bed.
You got this.
Authors.
SPEAKER_01 (45:02):
Oh, God.
I feel like I've been giving alecture for the last hour.
SPEAKER_00 (45:06):
That's the point, though.
I think that's why we startedthe podcast.
That's why they're listening.
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
I know, but I feel like I don't give them enough
helpful educational information.
If you're a writer, what didthey get out of this?
You just did it.
It was great.
SPEAKER_00 (45:19):
Thanks.
I I was inspired.
I was inspired not to shit thebat.
And I I'm dyslexic.
I can't write anything.
SPEAKER_01 (45:29):
So I will say, if you are a writer and you are
listening to this, and you wantto dive into the conversation on
Discord, that would be awesome.
We would love to hear what youhave to say.
And I do this thing on Patreoncalled a ritual dare.
And at the end of all of myworkbooks that I have for them
(45:52):
that come out every Monday,which I haven't done for this
Monday.
Sorry, guys.
Oh yeah, sorry.
It's Wednesday.
It's already done.
SPEAKER_00 (45:58):
Wednesday.
I'm sure she did it.
It's fine, guys.
It's fine.
Everything's fine.
She did it.
SPEAKER_01 (46:03):
But yeah, so I always give them a ritual dare,
which is telling them, take yourwork in progress, do this, share
it with us in the Discord or onPatreon.
So for this week, I thought Iwould do it on the podcast.
So if you're a writer and youwant to share it with us, just
pick a scene from your work inprogress and just end it one
beat earlier than you usuallywould to see if you can create
(46:26):
that tension so you can kind ofhook your readers into the next
chapter because you really don'tever want to answer a question
without creating anotherquestion.
I was great at this when it cameto my YA books.
There was nobody better at thatshit than me.
I used to write my books likethey were a movie of the week.
I was always ending a chapterright when they were like, ah.
(46:49):
And then I would move on to thenext thing.
I would put another person's POVthat was like across town and
make them wait for three morechapters before we got back.
SPEAKER_00 (46:58):
I hate it, but I love it because when I get to
that, it'll be like some fuckerwho's getting healed in the
different world and my mainbitch is about to get killed.
And then I'll be like, andanyway, Dorian still can't walk.
Let's talk about that for thenext 60 pages.
Yeah.
And that's what you want to do.
SPEAKER_01 (47:13):
So if you normally solve the problem before you
move on to the next chapter,just end it a beat earlier.
And if you want to share it inthe podcast, in a podcast?
No.
In a Discord.
Make your own podcast.
Or make your own podcast.
That's fine too.
If you think I suck at this,just make your own podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (47:33):
Steal the idea.
SPEAKER_01 (47:35):
As easy as you think it is, guys.
Steal the idea.
Do it yourself.
Exactly.
But yeah, if you want to shareit in the Discord, that would be
great.
You can either share it underthe episode thread or if you
want just positive feedback.
We have a thread that's justhype me up.
If you just can't handle thecriticism like me, and you just
want people to be like, bitch,that is the best thing I've ever
(47:55):
fucking read.
We have a thread for that too.
Yeah, we have thread foreverything.
We have a thread for everything.
Thread for everything.
No, we really do.
Everybody kept saying, Whatabout a thread for this?
So now in the Discord, there's90 of them.
But they're very well organizedby no fault of my own.
I have two admins that are verygood at organizing these people.
(48:18):
So they're easy to find.
Well, because I suck ateverything other than writing.
And some people say I suck atwriting.
But not you.
SPEAKER_00 (48:28):
Not you, dear listener.
You would never suck it.
SPEAKER_01 (48:30):
You guys are here for me, and I appreciate that.
I think we should end it herethough.
And again, you can find us onPatreon, you can find us on
Discord.
You can rate, review, subscribe,download.
All of that really helps us getseen, get more listeners.
I almost said readers.
SPEAKER_00 (48:49):
Read every single thing that you guys have said
about us.
SPEAKER_01 (48:52):
I not only read it, I screenshotted it and sent it
to Shannon, and then I used itin our social media.
We appreciate every comment youguys give us.
I like being in your ears.
And I did create a social mediafor the actual feral phantoms
podcast.
So if you want to look for that,that would be great.
All of our stuff is brought toyou basically by the Burned Out
(49:14):
Muse, which is my sister companythat does all of the things.
So if you see the Burned OutMuse, follow that too.
I have a lot of good writingadvice on there, or I will.
And I think that's it for today.
We're talking about Teen Wolfnext time.
And again, Shannon's like, Ihave no fucking idea who Teen
Wolf is.
SPEAKER_00 (49:32):
Is that cool?
Are we cool with that, guys?
Let me know because I don't knowwhat's going on.
Wait till the Taylor Swiftepisode, okay?
Because I'm gonna lost.
Then I'll be sitting here beinglike, uh-huh.
She got her master's back.
Oh, well, it's a Taylor Swiftlistening party, okay?
And I'm gonna break down for youwhy it's not a one-dimensional
album.
Okay, Life of the Showgirl isgood.
And if you don't like fun, andif you don't like whimsy, and if
(49:53):
you don't want to get a littlehot girl, white girl drunk
sometimes and just dance andtalk about dick, then that's
your problem.
SPEAKER_01 (50:01):
And on that note, we'll see you next week, guys.
SPEAKER_00 (50:05):
Great week.
Bye.
No, okay.
Now we're good.
All right.
So, but yeah.
We're not even on camera.
See me.
I know.
God, that's the worst part.
Is who and your mom was talkingabout how we're always looking
(00:21):
at ourselves when we areFaceTiming.
Yeah, don't you?
Especially now that I know Imake all these stupid fucking
faces.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Yeah.
My husband said to me one timeon a face on a video chat, I
have a question for you.
Who's the big picture right nowand who's the little picture?
And I said, I think you know theanswer.
Who is the big picture?
SPEAKER_01 (00:39):
You're the visual whole.
I'm the prize.
Sir, I'm always the big picture.
SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
Yes, exactly.
Well, what are we talking abouttoday?
Oh, should we do the intro?
Oh, hang on.
Wait, tell me what we're talkingabout and then we'll do the
intro.
Am I?
We're talking aboutsupernatural.
SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (00:53):
All of a sudden it just started doing these weird
little lines.
You know, when you see somebodytalking and it shows the yeah,
all of a sudden you disappearedand it was just the I could see
you talking, but I couldn't seeyou.
SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
I disintegrated.
I am now but a voice.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
You're the voice in the machine.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
The least favorite thing of me talking.
Well, no, you know what?
People are listening to us talk.
So let me not say that.
And you are listening, it turnsout.
SPEAKER_01 (01:21):
Yeah, no shit.
We're up to over 1300 downloads.
Wait, we we haven't done theintro.
Well, I'm talking about thisbecause this is gonna be all of
our extra for the podcast or forthe Patreon.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Patreons like to hear us.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Gibble gabble.
Oh my gosh, I know.
And I didn't edit any of thestuff that I put up on Patreon.
So they got every like, um, huh?
Us repeating ourselves, it's sobad.
I feel so sorry for them.
(02:00):
I never realized how much I saylike, like, like.
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
I'm like, uh, see, like.
I was like, why do I keep sayinglike?
And then I was like, stop sayinglike.
Um, you know what I mean?
That's us.
We drag our vowels too, it turnsout, because I tried to listen
to pop-ups, but I can't listento my own voice.
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
Because I'm like, and then uh like remember when I
used to make fun of Paris Hiltonbecause she lazy talked?
Like, that's me.
Oh my god, it's so hot.
Like now that's us.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Yeah, I'm getting whiter somehow every day.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
I don't know how it keeps it in this economy.
I didn't even think I could getany whiter.
Look at me.
I'm practically see-through.
Yet somehow I'm getting white.
Yeah, but you're not crackingthough.
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
I don't know.
We're skin.
I'm starting to I'm starting tosee it.
No, you're doing great.
SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
Well, yes, we're talking about supernatural.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
Have you I don't know much about it.
I do have a general idea ofsupernatural.
I get that they're brothers,there's a hot angel guy, but
they're not gay for each other.
We'll save it for the podcast.
All right.
SPEAKER_01 (03:14):
So I brought notes this time because I don't want
to forget nothing.
SPEAKER_00 (03:20):
We're getting better, guys.
I know look at us.
We're a professional podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (03:26):
I mean, we used to do this.
We used to do this three or fourin one day.
But no one was only 40 peoplewere listening.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
I know the pressure was really off back then.
unknown (03:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Why did we tell anybody we were actually making
this podcast?
SPEAKER_00 (03:41):
We did, and they were, that's nice, sweetheart.
SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
But now I have people who careabout what I have to say.
Weird.
And I'm along for the ride.
Okay, so I will officiallyintroduce us 321.
Hi, everybody.
Welcome back to the FeralPhantoms Podcast.
(04:04):
This is episode number four.
And today we will be talkingabout supernatural.
I'm only James, gay romanceauthor, well, writer of gay
romances, bisexual author, andguru, educator, okay, mother of
dragons.
No.
SPEAKER_00 (04:24):
And I'm here with Shannon Iselle, who is I have
very far less attributes to myname, which I don't think that's
true.
I am her bodyguard.
I'm her personal assistant.
I'm your bookshipper, customerservice lady.
Shop manager.
Shop manager, there we go.
I don't know what whatever shewants me to be.
(04:46):
The podcast house, she calls meand I say, Yes, mommy, whatever
you want.
SPEAKER_01 (04:49):
She stands next to me at signings and glares at
people and says things like, Youcould take a picture with her,
but don't tag her in it.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
Yeah.
And then she's like, Why do youkeep telling people to take
pictures with me?
And I'm like, because they wantto take your pictures with you.
Which is so weird.
SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Imagine if my teenage self could have ever
heard that people want to takepictures with me, they wouldn't
believe it.
They wouldn't believe it.
Yeah, I still don't believe itat all.
SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
Teenage U is a bitch.
So I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
So teenage you was a bitch too.
Okay.
Let's not get it twisted.
We were all none of us made itthrough our teen years without
being absolute nightmares.
I think some people did.
But I think we're just trying tomake ourselves feel better.
Nobody in our family.
I'm sure other people were nice.
We were not nice.
(05:39):
Some people loved their teenageyears.
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
I don't know who those people are, but someone I
just caught myself sayingeditors.
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
Yeah, don't worry.
I get rid of all of those.
They probably the people whosee, listen to us.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
Like ah, like ah, like ah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:55):
Like, like, like, like the people who listen to us
on the on any other platform butPatreon, they don't have to deal
with all the likes and the ums.
So don't worry.
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
SPEAKER_00 (06:07):
Still sign up for Patreon though.
SPEAKER_01 (06:09):
Yeah, please sign up for Patreon.
There's all kinds of good stuffon there.
Lots of likes and ums.
Lots of likes and ums.
And if that's not your thing,you could go to the Discord
where you don't have to hear us,but you can still talk about fan
stuff.
Yeah, this isn't required.
It's not required.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
And a lot of you are listening, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
And a lot of you are signing up for Patreon, which is
even crazier.
And thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
Thank you, Daddy.
Oh, we thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (06:33):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (06:35):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
Thank you, Daddy.
Thank you, Daddy.
SPEAKER_00 (06:38):
What's are we talking about today?
What are we talking about?
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
We are talking about supernatural.
I even wore my Winchester shirt.
Supernatural shirt.
So here we go.
I'm gonna be so self-consciousabout it now.
Editors, that's you.
Yeah.
So Supernatural lasted for 15seasons.
SPEAKER_00 (07:01):
Jesus.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
Which is crazy.
And I don't know how many peopleknow this, but it was only
supposed to be five.
When Eric Kripke originallycreated Supernatural, he said
five seasons and we're done.
And then I think it's seasonnumber four.
I think four is when weintroduced Castiel, and then it
(07:23):
shifted the whole projecttrajectory of the show.
It used to be kind of a monsterof the week thing, kind of like
how the X-Files used to beMonster of the Week, and then
all of a sudden it became aboutaliens.
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
Yeah, they like capture supernatural things and
they're hot.
And they're brothers and they'renot gay.
SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
Unless, of course, you're on AO3, in which case
they are very gay.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
They're not even gay for the angel guy.
I only know because the TikTokedits.
They're not gay for the guy.
SPEAKER_01 (07:52):
No, they're definitely gay for the angel.
Dean and Castiel are the Destialship that most people talk
about.
The other ship that most peopletalk about are Sam and Dean
together, which is why they callit Wincest.
Hey, look, I'm not yuckinganybody else.
When Game of Thrones does it,it's fine.
When the Winchester boys do it,it's taboo.
That's because, you know, theWinchester boys aren't rich and
(08:13):
they don't have dragons.
So there's no dragons?
I was gonna watch it, but ifthere's no dragons.
No, there's no dragons.
But yeah, it went from Monsterof the Week to Saving the World.
I started to watch Supernaturalwhen it first came out.
I watched the first threeepisodes, and then it's alright.
unknown (08:32):
You know?
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
WB.
I think it was the WB at first,and then it became the CW.
So it's it was on CW.
Which is so funny.
CW.
God, they have some of thecraziest shows, but they really
knew how to turn it out.
Yeah, they really did.
We but yeah, I watched the firstfew episodes.
I was not that into it.
(08:53):
Mostly because I knew JaredPadalecki from Gilmore Girls.
Who's that?
Jared Padalecki is the one whoplays Sam, the tall one.
He's like 6'6.
Okay.
Yeah.
And he played Rory's boyfriendin Gilmore Girls.
And not for nothing, but he waskind of a douchebag.
SPEAKER_00 (09:13):
So oh that that's our first boyfriend, right?
The one that wanted to likedress up like a 1950s.
SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
Yeah, and she loses her virginity to him when he's
married.
So crazy.
Yeah.
We'll get into Gilmore Girlsanother day because my mother
was obsessed with Gilmore girls.
Yeah.
But yeah, it's okay.
And you know how I am aboutsupernatural shows.
I love anything supernatural.
Your mom and I used to watchX-Files.
We used to watch that Americangothic show that nobody
remembers existing except me andmy mom.
SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
I remember it.
I was a child.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
I went back and tried to watch it.
I found it on YouTube, and it isso bad.
It is so bad.
It is cringe-worthy bad.
And not in a twilight way, butin a how did this get greenlit
by Hollywood way?
SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
It was so I remember they were southern and they
killed the little girl, right?
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Yeah.
What Salem was is what theywanted to be.
You know what I mean?
The show Salem, which was sodark.
Mick loved that show, but it wastoo raunchy for me.
It was like too gory.
I couldn't get past all theyeah.
No, sorry.
I I don't have the stomach forit anymore now that I'm not
nursing.
I don't just don't have thestomach for it.
But yeah, I wasn't really intoSupernatural until I don't know,
(10:26):
10 years ago.
I went back and I was bored andI was at home and they were
doing reruns.
And I just started watching thereruns, and I realized how
fucking funny that show is.
It is really one of the best,it's the most memed show ever.
(10:48):
They say Supernatural has a giftfor everything, and they're not
lying.
And if you ever have been onTumblr, it doesn't matter what
fandom, it doesn't matter what'shappening, there will always be
a supernatural fan who's got agif, a meme, something that fits
that occasionally.
SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
I've seen him around and I'm not in it.
I've seen him.
I know a lot about the show.
I've never watched it.
SPEAKER_01 (11:11):
Yeah, it's yeah, because it's just one of those
things that's now ingrained inculture.
Anybody who's our age definitelyknows it.
SPEAKER_02 (11:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:22):
Yeah.
So I started watching it, and itbecomes a comfort show.
And I think that's why it lastedas long as it did, because it
got to a point where I didn'teven care what the storyline was
that week.
I only cared that I got to seethem and I got to hear their
snarky comments and their stupidlittle jokes.
(11:43):
And then I started getting intothe behind the scenes stuff.
Because if you thinkSupernatural's funny, their
bloopers and their behind thescenes are crying.
You're laughing so hard.
Because it's three guys who arebest friends in real life.
And they get to goof off all daylong in a job where they just
(12:06):
get to go and hang out withtheir buddies.
So it really didn't matter tothem what the story lacked was.
Because they got to good workand prank each other.
SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
It makes them more wanting to watch when people are
involved in that.
Because I know I like that.
Like when I know they'reenjoying what they're doing,
that makes me want to watch.
SPEAKER_01 (12:26):
You feel like you're part of it when you see the
behind the scenes.
And I think that's why withauthors, they say that
parasocial relationships aresuper important.
When your readers like you as aperson, they will support you in
all your endeavors.
They'll download 1300 times justto make sure that your podcast
(12:49):
does well, just because theylike you as a person.
Yeah, it's true.
A lot of people don't want to beon camera like me, and a lot of
people don't want to go to cons,they don't want to be seen.
And I get that, but meeting yourreaders and interacting with
them, even just on Patreon.
I use my Patreon like a diarysometimes.
(13:10):
If you saw some of theself-absorbed whining I do to my
patrons, and they're just girl,oh God, oh yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:21):
When you've never lost into your Patreon, I'm
scared of them.
SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
When I found out I was on that banned book list, I
was just like, guys, listen.
I really just like unloaded on.
SPEAKER_00 (13:35):
How did I get on that list?
I just simply let everyone knowhow much I fucking hate MAGA
every day of my life.
And they put me on a list.
SPEAKER_01 (13:45):
And I was really proud of that list until like
the death threat stuff started.
And then I was like, you know,being on a list kind of sucks.
SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
Oh no, the Nazis don't like me.
I know what side of history I'llbe on.
SPEAKER_01 (13:57):
Remember when we all agreed that we hated Nazis?
Wasn't that a good time?
SPEAKER_00 (14:01):
Yeah, that was bipartisan.
unknown (14:03):
Bipartisan.
SPEAKER_01 (14:05):
It used to be the one thing we could all agree on.
SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
Not a political podcast, by the way, but it
always does a little well.
SPEAKER_01 (14:12):
We don't like Nazis.
Well, when you talk aboutsupernatural, you kind of have
to get a little politicalbecause there's nobody more
political than Misha Collins whoplays Castel.
Oh my God.
I once had a dream I was marriedto him, and I woke up so sad
that I wasn't.
And I'm not lying.
I was depressed when I woke upand realized that that had just
(14:33):
been a dream.
He's my ideal for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
I wonder if he had the same dream.
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
No, no, I did not.
SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
I did not think Misha Collins was at home
dreaming about a fat red.
No, I totally find her.
You're his Cinderella.
He's looking for you.
SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
Yeah, I can't imagine what it is he's trying
to put on.
My big ass feet.
Well, actually, my feet areprobably dainty compared to the
other girls in our family, butyou know, we won't be able to do
that.
SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
Well, I like how you didn't specifically call me out.
Well, because Shannon Mikhailahas big feet too.
SPEAKER_01 (15:06):
I always tell her you can find yeah, you can find
your shoes in the drag queenstores.
They make big size shoes,especially high heels.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
You're a everybody stop supporting her.
She's a foot shamer.
Heard of fat shaming?
What have you heard of?
Foot shaming.
Yeah.
I could control how big my feetgot.
I would fall over if I didn'thave big feet.
I'm six foot tall.
Not a foot podcast, by the way.
SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
No, you have to pay for extra for that.
If you want to see our feet, youcan join the Patreon and request
it.
We're not above that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:42):
My PayPal is.
SPEAKER_01 (15:45):
But yeah, a couple of weeks ago, Amisha Collins did
a dramatic reading of that Trumpletter to Epstein on his look
that up when we get off.
Yeah, no, he totally did.
He's very, very political.
But another reason that it wentso well, and again, it's that
parasocial relationship.
Misha Collins had a dedicatedphone number where supernatural
(16:11):
fans could text him if they werehaving a bad day.
SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
Swear to God, he had your K-pop boys.
SPEAKER_01 (16:18):
Yeah.
But he would talk directly topeople.
He would talk to them.
And when they started charginghim for the phone calls for the
longest time, he paid it.
He just paid it.
But then when it got to be toomuch, he crowdsourced the money
to keep the number.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
Because he didn't want him right now.
SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
I don't know.
I don't know.
I haven't looked it up.
But if anybody could, if youcould get a hold of any
celebrity, it would probably beMisha Collins.
SPEAKER_00 (16:47):
I text Misha.
I don't know.
1-800 Misha.
SPEAKER_01 (16:54):
But he's got a really interesting backstory
because for the longest time, hewas actually living in a tent
with his wife while while hebuilt their house.
So like by hand?
Yeah.
And he only wore clothes thatfans sent him.
(17:15):
He didn't like go out and buyfancy clothes.
He just wears that's whysometimes you'll see him and
he's wearing jeans that haveholes in them because he's been
wearing them for so long.
He doesn't care.
He doesn't care about fashion.
He doesn't care about any ofthat stuff.
He's very much, he has GishWest, uh Gish Wes, which is or
Gish, Gish Wish.
Oh my gosh.
It basically it's a scavengerhunt, a global scavenger hunt
(17:38):
that he puts on.
And you can create teams and youcan participate by doing all of
the little things that theyrequire of you.
And it's a charity thing that hedoes.
And it blew up into this hugething for years.
And I don't know if he stilldoes it, but for a long time he
did it.
And it was like the greatAmerican scavenger hunt or
(17:59):
something like that.
And at the end, do you find him?
Oh, I'm which I would havesigned up.
I would have signed up if thatwas the case.
SPEAKER_00 (18:08):
Bring it back, Misha.
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
I didn't know.
But yeah, Misha Collins is hiswife actually wrote a book on
his ex-wife now, wrote a book onswinging.
Okay.
Yeah.
So one time Charlie No.
Charlie Sheen once made thisbecause he's such a scumbag,
Charlie Sheen, but he made thiscomment.
(18:30):
I wrote the book on swinging orwhatever.
And Misha Collins responded,actually, my wife wrote the book
on swinging.
SPEAKER_00 (18:38):
The link to her book.
So they're swingers?
So there's a chance.
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
There's a chance.
Well, they're divorced, so he'ssingle as far as I know.
Though he's been hanging outwith this guy who's been his
friend for a long time, who kindof just blew up.
He had a film that went, I thinkthe Cannes Film Festival.
So like he's kind of beenhanging out a lot with this one
particular guy.
And he hasn't really made itlike a secret that he doesn't
(19:03):
seem to really care about gendermuch.
He's very LGBTQ friendly.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
But ally.
SPEAKER_01 (19:11):
And possibly adjacent.
He might just be the LGBTQ.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (19:16):
Not a Misha Collins podcast, by the way.
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
No, it's not.
But I do love Misha, so I'mgoing to talk about him because
I just I adore him and I lovehow he actually cares about the
people who come to the cons andeverything.
But honestly, Jerry Padaleckiand Jensen Accles are the same
way.
They almost invented these showcons because Supernatural has
(19:40):
cons that is just forSupernatural fans.
And the fans put it together andthen they get the actors to come
and be on panels.
And Jensen Accles singssometimes.
Amisha Collins sings sometimes.
They oh can you still hear me?
SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
I can hear you.
SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
They disconnected your video.
Oh, there you are.
It says I'm unstable.
Oh no, my connection isunstable.
SPEAKER_00 (20:07):
Oh.
SPEAKER_01 (20:08):
I was like, I know, but hey.
SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
We really need reminding right now.
We know.
My therapist says I'm fine.
Apparently, join the Patreon andthey know all about it.
They're like, quick, downloadthe podcast.
Download it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
That's my personal Patreon, my only James Patreon,
by the way.
You don't have to listen to mewhine on the Phantom Podcast.
What about the Pharaoh Phantoms?
Okay, you can listen to Shannonwhine on the Pharaoh Phantoms
podcast page.
I can still see you even.
But yeah, so they really createdthat whole parasocial
relationship where they didn'thave a lot of boundaries with
(20:44):
their fans.
They would their fans would comeup to them and be like, Can we
prom pose?
You know, and they'd be like,sure.
And they'll do the prom posewhere they're like chest to back
and have their arms around them.
SPEAKER_00 (20:55):
Sometimes they put this on TikTok.
SPEAKER_01 (20:58):
Yeah.
Sometimes it would be Jared andJensen, and then them in the
middle.
Silly little things like agirl's husband would stand off
to the side and she'd be beingdipped by Jensen Ackles and he
would have a mad face.
It was just really funny andcute.
And they tell Jensen Ackles isthe best storyteller.
Well, him and Misha Collinsboth.
They tell these stories, realstories, about things that
(21:21):
happen in their lives, butthey're just such good
storytellers that even when itsounds almost self-absorbed,
you're so engrossed in the waythey tell the stories that
you're just okay, and then whathappened?
And they're funny.
And you can get away with somuch when you're funny.
You know that.
I know that.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
And they're hot.
They're funny and hot.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Jensen Ackles is absolutely ideal.
He is beautiful.
Misha Collins is still my numberone, but Jensen Ackles is not
bad.
Not bad at all.
And I'm sure people are in thehome screaming, how dare you!
He's punching me out right now.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
No, fuck you, Misha.
SPEAKER_01 (21:57):
But Jensen and Jared, from the time they
started the podcast, they livedtogether for the longest time
until they got married to theirrespective partners.
SPEAKER_00 (22:05):
They were roommates.
SPEAKER_01 (22:08):
They were roommates.
And there was definitely a lotof talk in the beginning.
That's weird.
But they say they're brothers.
They both are from Texas.
They're both, you know.
But then Jared gets in trouble alot for running his mouth.
He has a tendency to say shitthat really pisses people off.
And that goes to the Destialshipper thing.
(22:33):
I don't know when Destielofficially kicked off.
Obviously, it had to be after heshowed up in season four,
clearly.
I didn't notice it at first, butwhen I started, like I said, I
was a steric fanfic reader.
We're gonna talk about Teen Wolfnext, so prepare yourselves,
guys, because I got a lot tosay.
Google it.
I don't know.
(22:53):
But he they really leaned in tothe Castile Dean thing because
it was easy to do.
SPEAKER_00 (23:08):
Uh-oh.
You gotta tap your mic, baby.
SPEAKER_01 (23:11):
God damn it.
This stupid mic, I hate it.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
But yeah, stop trying to put it down your
throat, and then we'll be okay.
SPEAKER_01 (23:21):
And this is why we are not a visual podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (23:25):
Not a blowjob podcast yet.
SPEAKER_01 (23:27):
But again, for money.
There's a patrons.
But yeah, so the steric fandomled me to the Destial fandom.
And I read some of the fanfics,and at first I was like, oh, I
get it.
People are fantasizing about it,whatever.
But then when I went back and Irewatched the show, like for the
900th time, I was like, oh no,this is deliberate subtext.
(23:51):
100%.
They leaned into this Dean andCast thing.
And this is what you have to becareful with when it comes to
the unresolved sexual tension,which is great.
The 90s lived for unresolvedsexual tension.
It's always like Mulder andScully from X-Files.
We we spent what nine seasonsbeing like, are they ever gonna
(24:13):
fuck?
What the hell?
SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
Um and so it was good, but if they don't get that
payoff at some point, it justespecially when it comes to two
men, then it's just queerbaiting.
And unfortunately, we get that alot in a lot of different shows.
And especially it wassupernatural, where it's Dean's
character is a super macho,extra manly, got it, always a
(24:37):
womanizer, always never wants tobe in a relationship for long.
And I don't know if you've knownany closeted gay men.
There's a lot of yeah, there's alot of similarities in how a lot
of these guys behave when itcomes to women because they're
trying to compensate for thefact that they're gay and they
don't want to be.
(24:58):
But yeah, so they just leanedmore and more into it to the
point where they actuallystarted getting in on the joke.
They have an episode called TheFrench Mistake, where Sam and
Dean get shoved into their reallives.
And so in the episode, thereJensen and Misha and Jared, you
(25:22):
see their real wives, you seelike the real people who are
behind the show, Robert Singerand all these people.
Everybody's playing themselves,but in an alternate universe.
But the alternate universe istheir real lives.
Okay.
And the whole show is anover-exaggeration of their real
lives.
Jared Padalecki and his wife areraising emus, which is not true.
(25:45):
But like, and the whole joke iswow, you're a real douchebag in
this life.
They're constantly making fun ofeach other and their real lives.
But then they have anotherepisode way in the future called
fanfiction, and they go to ahigh school that's putting on a
supernatural musical.
(26:07):
And in the show, Sam or Dean andCass end up together.
SPEAKER_00 (26:15):
I love that.
So they knew it.
They knew it.
I have a question for you.
Is there any actual romanticinterests while they're playing
this up in the background?
Are these boys cracking chicksor what are they doing?
SPEAKER_01 (26:28):
I mean in the show or in real life?
In the show.
There's never any women.
There's in the early seasons,they said get out of here,
girls.
In the early seasons, there wasa few girls that cycled through,
but nobody ever stuck around forlong because they realized that
nobody was in it for the girls.
And they kill off every fuckingwoman in the show.
(26:50):
If you like a girl, she's dead.
Sorry, that's just the rules.
It's very game of thrones.
And there was a huge, hugebacklash when they killed off a
character named Charlie.
This girl.
I can't remember who plays her.
Felicia Day, I think, plays her.
And everybody loved her.
She was a lesbian, she was agamer girl, and she helped them
(27:11):
constantly.
And oh, she was a hacker.
She was just that really coolgirl that everybody wishes they
were, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (27:17):
Yeah, another character, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Yeah.
And they killed her off in theworst conceivable way.
It backfired on them so bad thatthey brought back an alternate
version of her.
SPEAKER_00 (27:25):
Oh, okay.
That's the good thing aboutsupernatural being the name.
We can you can't.
SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
Because they do kill them off so often and then bring
them back with Sam and Dean diedprobably eight times throughout
the whole thing.
I think Cass died three timesand came back.
Bobby dies and comes back.
SPEAKER_00 (27:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
Well, and that's the thing.
At the very end of the show,when people do start dying for
real finale, that's when youkind of go, I can't believe they
ended it like this.
This is such bullshit.
But Supernatural createdfanfiction in a way, and people
are raging right now.
That's not fucking true.
But there's over a hundredthousand Destial fics.
(28:11):
That's a lot of people who wereshipping Cass and Dean together.
SPEAKER_00 (28:17):
And when you watch the show, one of the only things
I knew about the show at thebeginning of this podcast, I was
like, right, the angel and thebrother, they're doing it,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (28:25):
Yeah.
And so when that fanfic episodecame up and they end up
together, and it's two girlsplaying them.
So they're lesbians, but they'replaying Cass and Dean.
And so the girl who's thisreally uptight chick, and she
plays the director, and she's ahigh school girl, and she's just
and one of the lines is well,you can't spell subtext without
(28:49):
butt sex.
I'm like, What?
Yeah, so she lets it hang there,and he's just and so of course
Sam is teasing him through thewhole car ride because he's why
is it Destial and not this?
And why is it not Sam andCastill?
And why is it not Sam?
And then he says, wait till youfind out about the windcest or
(29:09):
something to that effect.
And he's like, I'm sorry, what?
Yeah, no, it's really, reallyfunny.
But it's a musical, so beprepared because they do burst
into song.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
I've been doing it.
I like a good I like a goodsinging moment.
So they became self-awareessentially.
SPEAKER_01 (29:24):
They had no problems breaking the fourth wall.
And I think when you do thatwell, your audience will just go
along with you.
If you've built that trust, youknow.
And I think they were just happythey even acknowledged the whole
Destill thing.
And they played it up at consand stuff.
Misha Collins and Jensen Acclesare very good sports about it.
(29:46):
They think it's great, they takepictures together, they do all
of the things, especially ifit's charity.
They're very down to helpwhoever.
And that's kind of where thingsgot a little dicey because Jared
Padalecki.
Came out very strongly aboutDean's not gay, Cass isn't gay,
not overtly saying fuck Desti L,but you know, is this the
(30:10):
writer?
SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
Is he the writer?
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
Sam is Jared Padelecki is the brother, Sam.
SPEAKER_00 (30:15):
Oh, oh.
Well, no.
He's the one.
SPEAKER_01 (30:17):
Yeah, so come on, sorry to.
Well, no, I'm just I don't wantto piss anybody off, but at the
same time, I want to be honest.
And okay, so the show ends whenCOVID hits.
And because of that, they had alot of restrictions on how they
could film.
And so Misha Collins went to thedirector and was like, I think
(30:44):
when Castile gets killed for thefinal time, he should tell Dean
he loves him, like he's in lovewith him.
And the director was like, Oh, Idon't know if we can do that.
And then he went to Jensen,like, how do you feel about
this?
And he's like, Fuck it, yeah,let's do it.
Great, you know.
So the scene is Cass sacrificeshimself for Dean.
(31:10):
But before he does, he gives aspeech that has everybody in
tears, including Jensen,basically telling him, You're
not the failure your dad saysyou were.
You know, you don't have toprove yourself to anybody.
All the shit that a big toughguy has probably wanted to hear
from their actual father foryears, you know.
And he just gave him permissionto just not be this super macho
(31:34):
dude or whatever.
And then he dies.
He sacrifices himself to saveDean.
And Dean's devastated, but hejust keeps thinking he's gonna
come back, you know.
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
But it it doesn't happen thistime.
And then they just gloss over,what do you call it?
Anticlimactic, you know what Imean?
Here's this big gay, I love you,and then you kill him.
(31:58):
So he does do that.
He says, I love you, Dean.
Well, that's also debatedbecause in the translated
version he says, I love you.
In the non-translated version, Idon't think he actually says the
words exactly, I love you.
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
But it was very clear it was a declaration of
love or whatever, like romanticlove, too.
SPEAKER_01 (32:18):
Very romantic, yeah.
And then it brought up the killyour gaze trope, which is
something that people are sofucking tired of.
And I didn't realize, but killyour gaze is an actual film
thing that this man in the 60screated that said, You can show
(32:42):
deeply flawed characters, andthese are his words, not mine.
So they can be gay, they can bewhores, they can be drug
addicts, but you have to killthem in the end.
They have to be morallypunished.
Should just describe my 20s.
Me too.
Please don't kill me, Mr.
Director.
Yeah, so but they had to die.
They had to so that you couldsay, yes, they live this life,
(33:05):
but it's very immoral and youshouldn't do it.
And then they die.
And then they die.
And this is something that hasbeen going on in film and
television for so long that it'slike people always talk about
queer joy and love victor oryoung royals, like all of these
shows where you get people whoare gay and happy and not dead.
SPEAKER_00 (33:29):
And it's the LGBTQ.
Or in your books, the gays aregonna kill you.
Exactly.
They're coming for you.
You and you, they're gonna getya.
SPEAKER_01 (33:42):
They don't care if you're gay or straight.
If you're a shithead, they'regoing to kill you.
SPEAKER_00 (33:46):
They're going to kill you.
SPEAKER_01 (33:47):
Yeah, they're gonna kill you.
And they my readers demand thatsomebody die at the end of every
book.
More murder.
SPEAKER_00 (33:54):
More murder, book lady.
So the last, right?
SPEAKER_01 (33:58):
The last episode of Supernatural, uh, first off,
Dean, they kill off Dean too, inthe stupidest way fucking
possible.
And that pissed a lot of peopleoff, too.
Because he literally gets shovedagainst some sharp object and
gets impaled and dies.
And after 15 seasons of monsterhunting, he gets taken out by a
(34:18):
rusty fucking nail.
You know, people were, how dareyou?
How dare you do this to DeanWinchester?
But in the last episode, theybring back pretty much
everybody.
They show Sam going on, he getsmarried, he has kids, but you
never see who the wife is, younever really see the kids.
You just see him living to anold age, and then you see them
(34:40):
reuniting, like in heaven orwhatever, but you never see
Cass.
They imply that Cass is there,but you don't see him.
And they said it's because ofCOVID regulations they couldn't
have Misha on the set, yadayada.
And people were, that's weirdbecause you have everybody else
on the set, but you don't haveMisha on the set.
That sort of thing.
And I'm sure there are peopleright now who are gonna listen
(35:00):
to this podcast and be like,you're getting it all wrong.
And if I am, I'm sorry.
I am not an expert by any meanson supernatural.
I am more a casual fan who justhappens to know a lot of the
lore through Tumblr.
SPEAKER_00 (35:14):
But also, don't listen.
But yeah, so Supernatural reallythey figured out a way to make
the show almost secondary to thelove people had for Jared and
(35:39):
Jensen and Misha.
SPEAKER_01 (35:41):
They were willing to support them in almost anything
because again, the show was soself-aware of how ridiculous it
was, and it did get ridiculoustowards the end.
I think there's an episodetitled Chris Angel is a
douchebag.
SPEAKER_00 (36:00):
Is he?
He probably is.
And they just have things thatare just fun, and they know that
we're just not everything has tobe that D.
Exactly.
And don't get me started becauseTaylor Swift just put out Life
of a Showgirl and everyone'shating on it.
And I just want everyone to knowsomething right motherfucking
out.
Is it a little cheesy?
Yes.
Is she saying dick a lot?
Fine, okay.
(36:21):
Let did she write a whole songcalled Wood about Travis
Kelsey's penis?
Yes.
But you can't be a tortured poetforever, everyone.
Okay, you can't.
SPEAKER_01 (36:31):
What happens when you're not depressed anymore?
SPEAKER_00 (36:34):
She has never gotten dick like this before.
She told me her my closepersonal friend Taylor Shook
told me in that song Have y'allever fucked a six foot seven
dude?
Because what?
Um I'm happy for her.
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
I have fucked a six foot seven dude.
I was not at all impressed.
To the point where he knew Iwasn't going to be impressed,
and he tried to warn me inadvance, and I did not take the
warning.
Anyway.
(37:12):
No, it's definitely not.
And I'm sorry if I'm hurting thetwo men who listens feelings.
Not really.
Not a dick podcast, but we'reprobably gonna talk about a lot
of dicks on this podcast, butnot in the literal sense.
SPEAKER_00 (37:27):
My husband barely knows that I'm even on a
podcast, apparently.
So I could talk about thepodcast.
Oh my god, I know.
He was like, oh, are you guyspodcasting again?
I've talked to him at almost atnauseam about it.
Isn't that crazy?
He's like, Yeah, but I wasn'tsure if it was the other podcast
or this podcast.
Yeah.
Not a prelude to my divorcepodcast.
Yet.
SPEAKER_01 (37:47):
Dot dot dot.
SPEAKER_00 (37:48):
Not two divorces.
I can't do it.
I'm not fucking Elizabeth Taylorgoing for my third husband.
My ex is on his fifth wife, soMichael?
SPEAKER_01 (37:58):
Yeah.
Oh, sorry.
The editors.
I don't care.
Fuck him.
I'll give you a social securitynumber.
I still remember it.
Anyway.
But so after Supernatural ended,most fan fiction writers ran to
AO3 to fix the ending.
They were like, you guys suck atthis.
Clearly, we tried to let youhandle it, but you were wrong.
(38:20):
You did it all wrong, so we'regonna fix it.
And they did.
And they wrote amazing likestories about the ending and how
it should have gone.
And they did a such a great jobof fixing it that I almost feel
like they should have just leftit to the fans to write the
ending.
SPEAKER_00 (38:39):
I think fans feel like that about a lot of things.
SPEAKER_01 (38:41):
Yeah, and it we're gonna get into that in the Teen
Wolf episode because the fansdid take over at one point, and
we'll get into that.
But I think we're gonna do aship of the week, which
obviously in this episode wouldbe a segment?
A segment.
SPEAKER_02 (38:59):
A segment?
SPEAKER_00 (39:00):
A segment look at us like a real podcast.
Oh, ship of the week.
I like it.
Break it down for me.
What are we doing?
SPEAKER_01 (39:08):
Well I wanted to discuss the tropes and the
psychology behind it, and it'sthe soldier and the angel.
You know, you've got thegrizzled bad boy and the guy
who's almost too good, theangel, and he becomes more
human.
But the nice thing aboutsupernatural was even the angel
(39:29):
was flawed.
Like he got to a point where hewas, I'm obviously the only
moral person here, so now I haveto be God.
And then he became God, and hebecame very much a not nice god.
Not that the god insupernatural's name is Chuck.
That's definitely God's name.
SPEAKER_00 (39:46):
Yeah, if she was a man, because she's not, but
she's not.
SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
Wait, Chuck is God in Supernatural, and he was a
real dick, and he basicallysaid, I'm done with y'all.
You do whatever the fuck youwant.
You suck.
And he just left everybody tofend for themselves.
So when Misha decides he's gonnabe God, he quickly backslides
into not good guy territory, butthat doesn't last long.
(40:12):
But yeah, so it's the soldierand the angel, and the fact that
Dean is so cynical and Cass isso naive because he's never
lived on Earth.
So everything is completely newto him, and so everything is
literal to him, and that's whatmakes it funny is the
(40:35):
juxtaposition of the cynical guyand the naive one.
It's the sunshine grumpy tropethat everybody loves, it's the
sarcastic one with the broodingone.
It's done over and over again,and we can't get enough of it.
That's why romance is so great.
Because you can beat a tropeinto the ground and people will
(40:57):
thank you for it.
We put this is a trope in ourstories, where anywhere else
they're just oh, tropes.
No, you want to stay away fromthose.
You want to be different, youwant to be unique, you want to
be this.
There's nothing unique ordifferent.
There's just everything underthe sun has been done before.
It's just how you put your ownspin on it now.
SPEAKER_00 (41:14):
People like the banter, and it's the way you
write it, you know.
So not everybody can do it,obviously, because I've read
some bad books.
SPEAKER_01 (41:21):
You know, I mean, I think we've all read some really
bad books, but but I'll stillread it.
unknown (41:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:29):
I took notes last night.
I was gonna be really good aboutthis, but the archetype clash,
the soldier in the angel, andthen the tension again, the
unresolved sexual tension fornine, ten seasons is that's it's
so good because even though youknow they'll never go there, you
(41:50):
go, but what if they did?
You know, what if they did?
And that keeps you on the edgeand it keeps you going.
But I will say if you're awriter and you're going to keep
your two main characters apart,you gotta put them together in
the end.
Because if you do likeSupernatural did and you have a
(42:11):
big love confession and then youkill your character, it's not
gonna go well for you.
And I will tell you this fromjust seeing backlash from other
author friends.
Once you break your reader'strust, you're not getting it
back.
You kill off a favoritecharacter, you don't give them
(42:32):
the happily ever after in aromance, you kill off one of
your characters in a romancenovel.
Isn't that not technically aromance then?
Because there's definitely not,yeah.
There's no that's exactly thethe where everybody was going
with this.
But also, you know, if you're astraight woman, don't use gay
men to like work throughwhatever your fucking issues
are.
Just saying.
(42:53):
So again, if you break areader's trust, you by all means
do the unresolved sexualtension.
If you're especially inromanticy, book two, they don't
even see each other.
All they do is talk about eachother for an entire book, and
then they get back together inbook three.
It's it's a romanticy trope tothis at this point.
Yeah, I'm into it.
(43:13):
Yeah, by all means, but justknow that if you don't get them
together, you're gonna breakyour reader's trust, and then
they're not gonna read anythingelse by you.
Even if you come back and you'relike, guys, I've learned my
lesson.
I will tell you this.
I was, I don't know, maybe 15,and my sister Tammy used to read
all the bodice rippers.
You know, the old schoolhistorical romances.
(43:36):
And I used to read them too,because I used to steal my
sister's mom and mygrandmother's book.
SPEAKER_00 (43:41):
Those covers were scandalous as a child.
Scandalous.
SPEAKER_01 (43:44):
Mother, like one of my f sisters' favorite authors
wrote a book, and the girl wasaccused of being a witch.
And her and the guy, herboyfriend or whatever, the love
interest, are in a wagon andthey are racing towards a cliff.
And Tammy's, oh, at any minute,they're going to not go over the
edge.
And then the writer kills themoff, Felmal and Louise style.
(44:06):
They go off the edge, and that'sthe end of the story, and they
die.
She never picked up another bookby that author.
She was, and she loved thisauthor.
She was devastated.
And she just said, No, neveragain.
Never reading this person again.
They ruined it, they ruinedeverything.
It doesn't matter how famous youare or how much money you make,
(44:26):
if you're not willing to neverwrite another book again, then
don't break your reader's trustby killing your gaze, by not
fulfilling that unresolvedsexual tension, by queer
baiting.
It's going to ruin everythingyou've worked so hard to put
(44:47):
together.
So that's my takeaway from theship of the week is don't fuck
it up, guys.
SPEAKER_00 (44:55):
Don't shit the bed.
You got this.
Authors.
SPEAKER_01 (45:02):
Oh, God.
I feel like I've been giving alecture for the last hour.
SPEAKER_00 (45:06):
That's the point, though.
I think that's why we startedthe podcast.
That's why they're listening.
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
I know, but I feel like I don't give them enough
helpful educational information.
If you're a writer, what didthey get out of this?
You just did it.
It was great.
SPEAKER_00 (45:19):
Thanks.
I I was inspired.
I was inspired not to shit thebat.
And I I'm dyslexic.
I can't write anything.
SPEAKER_01 (45:29):
So I will say, if you are a writer and you are
listening to this, and you wantto dive into the conversation on
Discord, that would be awesome.
We would love to hear what youhave to say.
And I do this thing on Patreoncalled a ritual dare.
And at the end of all of myworkbooks that I have for them
(45:52):
that come out every Monday,which I haven't done for this
Monday.
Sorry, guys.
Oh yeah, sorry.
It's Wednesday.
It's already done.
SPEAKER_00 (45:58):
Wednesday.
I'm sure she did it.
It's fine, guys.
It's fine.
Everything's fine.
She did it.
SPEAKER_01 (46:03):
But yeah, so I always give them a ritual dare,
which is telling them, take yourwork in progress, do this, share
it with us in the Discord or onPatreon.
So for this week, I thought Iwould do it on the podcast.
So if you're a writer and youwant to share it with us, just
pick a scene from your work inprogress and just end it one
beat earlier than you usuallywould to see if you can create
(46:26):
that tension so you can kind ofhook your readers into the next
chapter because you really don'tever want to answer a question
without creating anotherquestion.
I was great at this when it cameto my YA books.
There was nobody better at thatshit than me.
I used to write my books likethey were a movie of the week.
I was always ending a chapterright when they were like, ah.
(46:49):
And then I would move on to thenext thing.
I would put another person's POVthat was like across town and
make them wait for three morechapters before we got back.
SPEAKER_00 (46:58):
I hate it, but I love it because when I get to
that, it'll be like some fuckerwho's getting healed in the
different world and my mainbitch is about to get killed.
And then I'll be like, andanyway, Dorian still can't walk.
Let's talk about that for thenext 60 pages.
Yeah.
And that's what you want to do.
SPEAKER_01 (47:13):
So if you normally solve the problem before you
move on to the next chapter,just end it a beat earlier.
And if you want to share it inthe podcast, in a podcast?
No.
In a Discord.
Make your own podcast.
Or make your own podcast.
That's fine too.
If you think I suck at this,just make your own podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (47:33):
Steal the idea.
SPEAKER_01 (47:35):
As easy as you think it is, guys.
Steal the idea.
Do it yourself.
Exactly.
But yeah, if you want to shareit in the Discord, that would be
great.
You can either share it underthe episode thread or if you
want just positive feedback.
We have a thread that's justhype me up.
If you just can't handle thecriticism like me, and you just
want people to be like, bitch,that is the best thing I've ever
(47:55):
fucking read.
We have a thread for that too.
Yeah, we have thread foreverything.
We have a thread for everything.
Thread for everything.
No, we really do.
Everybody kept saying, Whatabout a thread for this?
So now in the Discord, there's90 of them.
But they're very well organizedby no fault of my own.
I have two admins that are verygood at organizing these people.
(48:18):
So they're easy to find.
Well, because I suck ateverything other than writing.
And some people say I suck atwriting.
But not you.
SPEAKER_00 (48:28):
Not you, dear listener.
You would never suck it.
SPEAKER_01 (48:30):
You guys are here for me, and I appreciate that.
I think we should end it herethough.
And again, you can find us onPatreon, you can find us on
Discord.
You can rate, review, subscribe,download.
All of that really helps us getseen, get more listeners.
I almost said readers.
SPEAKER_00 (48:49):
Read every single thing that you guys have said
about us.
SPEAKER_01 (48:52):
I not only read it, I screenshotted it and sent it
to Shannon, and then I used itin our social media.
We appreciate every comment youguys give us.
I like being in your ears.
And I did create a social mediafor the actual feral phantoms
podcast.
So if you want to look for that,that would be great.
All of our stuff is brought toyou basically by the Burned Out
(49:14):
Muse, which is my sister companythat does all of the things.
So if you see the Burned OutMuse, follow that too.
I have a lot of good writingadvice on there, or I will.
And I think that's it for today.
We're talking about Teen Wolfnext time.
And again, Shannon's like, Ihave no fucking idea who Teen
Wolf is.
SPEAKER_00 (49:32):
Is that cool?
Are we cool with that, guys?
Let me know because I don't knowwhat's going on.
Wait till the Taylor Swiftepisode, okay?
Because I'm gonna lost.
Then I'll be sitting here beinglike, uh-huh.
She got her master's back.
Oh, well, it's a Taylor Swiftlistening party, okay?
And I'm gonna break down for youwhy it's not a one-dimensional
album.
Okay, Life of the Showgirl isgood.
And if you don't like fun, andif you don't like whimsy, and if
(49:53):
you don't want to get a littlehot girl, white girl drunk
sometimes and just dance andtalk about dick, then that's
your problem.
SPEAKER_01 (50:01):
And on that note, we'll see you next week, guys.
SPEAKER_00 (50:05):
Great week.
Bye.
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