October 15, 2025 • 55 mins
Fans don’t just watch; they build. This week we trace how Teen Wolf lit up the internet with sharp humor, pulpy lore, and explosive chemistry—then fumbled the bag by turning on the very community that made the show a phenomenon. We talk through the early magic: Stiles as the stealth lead, Derek as the reluctant anchor, hunters with silver-coded names, and a transformation aesthetic that chose human-adjacent menace over full-wolf horror. The storytelling worked because the emotional rules held, until Sterek became the center of gravity and the response shifted from playful winks to public ridicule.
We dig into what changed behind and in front of the camera: the rise of Dylan O’Brien and Tyler Hoechlin, network optics around age and queerness, and the real-world pressures that spook executives into hedging. Then we follow the fallout. When fans feel baited, they take their creativity elsewhere—AO3 flourished with richer packs, resurrected favorites, and a version of the mythos that protected core dynamics. We connect these dots to other TV pivots (9-1-1, Vampire Diaries, The Originals) and show how listening to on-screen chemistry is not “pandering”; it’s craft. Chemistry is data. Payoff is trust.
We also broaden the conversation to romance craft: why readers gravitate toward m/m romance, how BDSM can be written with consent and depth, and why calling queer love stories “porn” erases plot, agency, and character. The through line is clear: don’t promise what you won’t honor, don’t mock the people who amplify your work, and don’t confuse subtext with a marketing plan. If you’re building a world fans want to live in, treat them like co-architects, not props.
Enjoy the breakdown? Tap follow, drop a review, and share this episode with a friend who ships hard. Your downloads keep us caffeinated and feisty—what ship should we tackle next?
Want the uncut chaos + bonus episodes? Join us inside the cult at Patreon.com/TheBurnedOutMuse. Or find everything else (Discord, socials, freebies) at linktr.ee/theburnedoutmuse.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:10):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode five of the
Feral Phantoms podcast.
Today we are going to be divinginto Teen Wolf, and I have a
lot.
Twilight.
A lot to say.
We did Twilight already, episodethree.
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
Oh no, no, no, you're right.
My bad, my bad, my bad.
Sorry.
SPEAKER_02 (00:28):
Girl, it was only two episodes ago.
unknown (00:30):
What the hell?
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Anyway, I'm only James, gay romance author, and
this is Shannon, who apparentlyis very forgetful.
SPEAKER_00 (00:40):
Forgetful Shannon.
That's it.
You get no other informationabout me.
It's just Shannon.
I blackout.
I'm actually blackout drunk whenI do these at 11 in the morning.
So just that's my I can onlyhave a personality wasted.
So people are going to believeyou.
Good.
Write your letters.
Next week, Shannon'sintervention.
(01:01):
So write your letters.
I love when people write yourletters.
SPEAKER_02 (01:08):
We are both very tired today.
Neither of us got any sleep.
So this is going to be the oldschool, we're here for the
occult stuff, absolutely runningon caffeine version of us today.
Yeah.
When people stop being politeand start getting real.
(01:28):
Aging ourselves.
No shit.
So yeah, we're going to talkabout a teen wolf today.
And like I said, I have a lot tosay.
I was a huge, huge, huge TeenWolf fan until they kind of
screwed the pooch, in myopinion.
And this is basically just goingto be a masterclass on what not
to do when you have a supersuccessful show.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
And I'm assuming werewolves.
I've never seen it.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
We call them werewolves because for
werewolves, they were allweirdly hair-free when they were
in human form.
SPEAKER_00 (02:00):
Oh boo!
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
I like a hair.
Even they used to make fun ofthe fact that somehow none of
them had any hair on theirbodies.
So they used to call themwerewolves instead of
werewolves.
That's hilarious.
But yeah, it ran from I did notrealize it started in 2011 and
it ran till 2018, which seemslike yesterday to me.
(02:23):
Yes.
Even though I guess technicallyit's seven years ago, almost
eight, but it just seems likeyesterday, literally.
And it was loosely based on the1980s movie with Michael J.
Fox called Teen Wolf, which hadthe silliest looking wolves in
it.
It was very much a werewolves ofLondon wearing a letterman
(02:45):
jacket with fuzzy paws stickingout, kind of.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Like the Michael Jackson video.
With the werewolves in that.
unknown (02:51):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
Yes, exactly.
Lazy werewolfing.
I get it.
Yes, very, very lazy.
Jacob would be verydisappointed.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There was definitely no likebadass kind of sound.
Or like vampire diaries wherethey have to chain themselves
up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there was like, yeah, theirbones are cracking.
Yes.
That's right.
They did show the transition inthe vampire diaries because the
first time Tyler ever changes,it is the sound.
It's graphic.
SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:18):
The bones are cracking the sound.
That's why I could definitelynot want to be a werewolf if I
don't want to be a werewolfanyway.
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
It seems like they lose.
Unless I'm like sentient, I'mlike still me, and I'm just like
sneaking around like a littlewolf.
SPEAKER_02 (03:31):
Some of them are, and depending on your lore, some
people are still very much awareof who they are.
SPEAKER_03 (03:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:36):
And then some people, like in Teen Wolf, they
don't really turn into a fullwolf.
They become hybrid, a furry, ifyou will.
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
A furry.
Okay, so are they on two legs?
Is that what we're talkingabout?
They lope.
Oh what?
SPEAKER_02 (03:52):
They lope.
Like so they're still in humanform, but they run on all fours.
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
Okay, so they're weight.
Okay, good question.
So okay, so they're humans.
So they're humans, they'refurry.
They have fangs.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (04:06):
Pointy ears.
Paws.
We have paws.
They have paws, they have longnails, and then they they lope
like antelopes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:13):
Okay, I'm googling a teen wolf in full form, right?
I need to see this.
Teen wolf as a wolf.
SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Okay, but you might get Derek, who has the ability
to turn into a full wolfeventually.
Wait.
Oh, so they just get like weirdforeheads?
SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
Yes, they get weird, they get like Crow Magnon man
brow.
What the fuck is this, Martina?
That is not a werewolf.
Who told them that?
Okay, so they stick their jawout a little bit, okay?
They get a wider bridged nose,yeah.
Pointy ears, and then an emohaircut.
But yes, they have a very CrowMagnon man brow that arrives,
(04:52):
like and like they get thelittle emo haircut, and they've
got some chops, a little bit ofchops.
Yeah, yeah.
So they're actually not wolvesat all.
So to be clear, this is the man.
This is an odd-looking man.
I'll give them that.
SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
Very.
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
But this is in fact not a wolf.
SPEAKER_02 (05:11):
So I'm just saying he is.
If you guys are okay with it,I'm okay.
Obviously, people were into it.
Okay.
Again, I didn't get into TeenWolf until I got into the steric
fandom on AO3.
I started reading fanfics aboutStyles and Derek, the characters
on the show, before I ever gotinto Teen Wolf.
(05:32):
I thought they were canon.
I thought they were an actualcouple in Teen Wolf.
So I was really confused when Istarted watching the show.
Because at first, Styles, who'splayed by Dylan O'Brien, who
steals the show, by the way.
This is the whole, I think thisis kind of part of the beef with
(05:53):
beef.
What beef people?
SPEAKER_00 (05:55):
What's going on?
unknown (05:56):
Listen.
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
So 2011, boom, the show comes out.
People are these guys are hot.
It got a little bit of a buzzright from the beginning.
Nobody knew who Dylan O'Brienwas.
Tyler Posey was the star becausehe had been in a movie with
Jennifer Lopez when he was alittle kid.
So he was the one with the name,essentially.
(06:25):
But I had never heard of him.
I'd never heard of DylanO'Brien.
He was brand new, he'd neverdone anything before.
But episode one, Dylan O'Brien,his comedic timing, his sarcasm.
You know how much everybody justloves somebody who can deliver a
good sarcastic line.
He immediately overshadowedTyler Posey right off the bat.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
But in real life, they became best friends.
Boom.
They were everywhere together.
I'm pretty sure there are stillbest friends to this day.
So everybody on the set gotreally close with each other.
But in season one, Styles is inlove with the rich girl who
doesn't give him the time ofday, played by Holland Roden.
Her name is Lydia in the show.
(07:09):
Lydia is dating Colton Haynescharacter.
His name is Jackson in the show.
Very, very hot, very rich, very,very date rapey douche kind of
energy.
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
I thought you were gonna say that, give him another
compliment.
I'm like, I'm into it.
Oh, date rapey, cool.
SPEAKER_02 (07:26):
He's not really date rapy with a big setup, but
really he has like a reallyaggressive nature, and he's a
bully, for sure.
And he's mean to Lydia, whopretends to be very stupid, even
though she's a genius, um, whichyou don't really figure out
until later on in the firstseason.
Um but it starts with Posey'scharacter, Dylan O'Brien's
(07:49):
character.
So Scott and uh Styles going tolook for a dead body.
Styles' dad is uh the sheriff.
He hears that there's been adead body's been found in the
woods.
He's let's go look for it.
If you want to go look for abody, and Scott says, What kind
of body?
A body of water, idiot.
A dead body.
That was a big thing.
This is MTV.
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
MTV.
SPEAKER_02 (08:10):
Yeah.
They used to play things besidesridiculousness?
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
That's weird.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
Well, this was like their first big fiction type
show, not a reality TV show.
Um, so they go, they find halfof a dead body, they freak out.
Scott, who has asthma, loses hisinhaler, the sheriff shows up,
sees Styles.
Styles pretends he's out therealone.
Scott gets left in the woods,styles leaves with his dad, and
(08:38):
Scott gets attacked by ananimal.
A wolf.
Or a man.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
That kind of looks a little bit weird.
SPEAKER_02 (08:45):
He gets attacked by a furry.
SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
Yes, not even a furry.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
The furry community, to be clear, is in more costume
than this.
It's true.
They are in much more costumeand probably aren't out in the
woods attacking people.
Probably.
Probably.
I don't like to do broadstrokes.
No broad strokes here.
I've never seen a furry crimebefore.
I will say that.
Other than some people thinkbeing a furry is a crime.
(09:10):
I don't.
You know.
I don't want to yuck anybody'syuck.
This is a safe space.
That's right.
Okay, so the next morning,obviously, just in typical
werewolf fashion, he wakes up,suddenly he doesn't need his
inhaler.
Suddenly he can hear things heshouldn't be able to hear, see
things he shouldn't be able tosee.
He's got a little child.
Yeah.
He and Styles have been on thelittle cross team for a long
(09:30):
time, but neither of them everget to play because they're bad.
Now all of a sudden, he's likejust abs.
He's all exactly.
You know how it goes.
Makeover transition.
Scott has no idea what's goingon.
He is very happily justconfused, per usual.
(09:52):
He's too busy noticing the newgirl, Allison, who just rolled
into town.
He's like, I want that girl.
I'm never gonna get that girl.
She's too hot.
She's already hanging out withthe cool kids.
But Alison's, she's hot, butshe's quirky.
You know the type.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
Yeah, pizza, bearn, football.
SPEAKER_02 (10:09):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
She wears short skirts, uh, wear t-shirts,
cheese, t-shirts.
SPEAKER_02 (10:15):
She sees Scott, she likes Scott, so she doesn't care
that her friends don't likeScott.
Um, Lydia and her immediatelybecome besties.
And even though Lydia is alittle bit of a bitch in season
one, she's still likable enoughthat you don't hate her on the
spot.
You do hate Jackson because he'snot only mean to everybody else,
(10:35):
he's mean to Lydia.
And what's the point?
Now, in real life, this isimportant, this is why I'm
telling you this.
Colton Haynes is very much outof the closet now.
He is, has an ex-husband, Ithink he has a current husband.
But at the time, he when he gotthe role on Teen Wolf, he was
already out, right?
He had gone to prom with anotherboy.
(10:56):
They immediately stuffed himback in the closet and forced
him and Holland Roden to pretendto date.
SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
What the fuck?
Yeah, in the big 2011.
SPEAKER_02 (11:06):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's why this whole thingis so sus.
Because Jeff Davis, who wrotethe show, also wrote Criminal
Minds, FYI.
Um, you love this guy.
Yeah.
Jeff Davis, gay.
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
You'd think he probably didn't make them date.
That sounds like a producer.
SPEAKER_02 (11:23):
He didn't make them date, but he did do a lot of
fucked up shit.
So sorry, Jeff Davis.
I'm just calling it like I seeit.
I'm not sure.
Don't unsubscribe shows.
SPEAKER_00 (11:32):
Jeff Davis, don't drop your Patreon subscription,
please.
We love you.
I've never watched anythingyou've ever done, but I will.
Don't listen to her.
SPEAKER_02 (11:40):
I'm scared that you, of all people, have never
watched Criminal Minds.
Your mother loved that show.
She's the one who got me intoCriminal Minds.
I'm gonna watch Teen Wolf afterthis.
It's so good.
I'm telling you.
It's good in that cheesy wayvampire diaries is good, you
know?
Like where everything's just soover the top and dramatic, but
you can't stop watching it.
You hate the main character somuch.
(12:01):
You don't like Scott.
You will in the beginning, andeventually he just becomes more
and more unlikable.
And Styles almost becomes themain character, which I'm sure
probably pissed Tyler Posey offa little bit, but he never
stopped being friends with DylanO'Brien.
Even when Dylan O'Brien gotsuper famous and did the maze
runner and all this other stuffand started getting main
(12:21):
character roles, and Tyler Poseystarted doing OnlyFans, they
were still besties, you know?
So OnlyFansy.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:29):
He's he's yeah.
We'll get to that too if we havetime.
Anyway, so we'll make time.
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
I want to hear about that.
SPEAKER_02 (12:37):
I love an entrepreneur.
One styles is constantly makingcomments that make you think
that he's bisexual.
In one part, he's asking if thegay kid at school thinks he's
attractive.
Another, he asks Scott if theycould just try making out to see
if they're into each other.
(12:58):
And then when I want to seeseason oh god, is it season
three, season four?
In one of them, they're killingvirgins, and Stylus is still a
virgin, and he's in the lockerroom and he's freaking out, and
he's somebody needs to sex meright now, basically.
I need to get laid.
And he's trying to get Scott tobasically take one for the team.
(13:20):
Somebody's gotta fuck me, dude,because I am probably the only
virgin left in school.
And so Danny, the gay kid,basically closes a locker and
he's like, I'll do it.
Styles is like, really?
Oh, that's so sweet.
Seriously?
And he's like, Yeah, plan onstaying the night.
I like to cuddle.
And he's like, really?
He's like, no, not really, youidiot.
(13:40):
And he like leaves.
Oh, boo! What the hell?
Styles is literallydisappointed.
Everybody's like, okay, yeah,he's bisexual.
Cool.
He can still like Lydia and bebisexual.
Right.
But whenever he is on screenwith Derek, the chemistry is
chemistrying.
Like to the point where even thewriters realized immediately
(14:03):
that their chemistry was sogood, they started manufacturing
reasons to put the two of themon screen together.
And then the Starek Phantom wasborn in season one, immediately
right off the bat, because it'sthe grumpy sunshine, it's the
enemies to lovers kind of thing,because everybody thinks that
Derek's A, a murderer, and B,he's the one who turns Scott.
(14:26):
He's neither of those things.
SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
He's not a murderer either.
Damn.
SPEAKER_02 (14:29):
No.
Well, he is eventually, but notthen.
SPEAKER_00 (14:31):
Not yet.
SPEAKER_02 (14:32):
Give it time.
He thinks he's a murdererbecause he gets involved with Al
Okay, so Allison's family turnsout to be werewolf hunters.
Oh, obviously, we need hunters.
He does not know that her familyhunts werewolves, and she does
not know that she's dating awerewolf.
SPEAKER_00 (14:47):
I get it.
Is there like an originalfamily?
Are they like a founding family?
Yes.
Yeah, okay, okay, okay.
I know the vibe.
SPEAKER_02 (14:55):
We've been hunting werewolves for hundreds of
years.
They're French.
Like her last name is Argent,which means silver.
Like, there's lore, and they getdeeper into that lore the
further you go into the show.
But she has no idea.
She just thinks her dad is anarms dealer, which is kind of
crazy in and of itself.
But you know, they have her momis wild.
(15:16):
Her mom is this super severelooking woman with uber short
red hair, looks like she couldkick your ass in a boxing ring,
right?
Okay.
Her dad is played by one of thehottest men alive.
Also, I'm almost 100% positiveis gay in real life.
Everybody in this show, a littlegay in real life.
(15:36):
It's crazy.
Some of the most talented peoplein the world.
What are you gonna do about it?
Right?
Um, but yeah, so her dad, superhot.
His name in the show is ChrisArgent, gorgeous, chef's kiss.
Uh and he, of course, isclocking that he knows all about
Derek's family because they area big family of actual
(15:58):
werewolves.
They weren't turned, they wereborn wolves.
So he's clocking Derek's family.
Derek is trying to recruitScott.
He still thinks that Derek's theone who turned him.
Nobody knows who actually turnedhim.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
Into a werewolf, not gay, to be clear.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
Like he's not actually turned people.
He's not propaganda, as far aswe know.
But Derek's family was killed ina fire.
You don't really know much moreabout that.
You just know he's basically anorphan, and all of his family,
including his extended family,died in a fire, except for his
uncle, who is basicallycatatonic, burned to a crisp,
(16:36):
and a nursing home, even thoughhe's in his 30s.
SPEAKER_00 (16:39):
Nice.
SPEAKER_02 (16:40):
He's just living his life.
SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
Laying it on a little thick, MTV.
All right.
Listen, they know how to write astory.
They said WB, pull my beer.
SPEAKER_02 (16:49):
They really did.
They really did.
They knew they had to competewith things like the vampire
diaries.
Yeah.
And charmed.
So the whole first season isjust who turned Scott.
Spoiler alert.
Turns out to be the uncle who'sin the coma.
Oh.
How do you do that from thecoma?
He's not in a coma.
He has arisen.
(17:10):
But you don't know that.
Sneaky!
unknown (17:13):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (17:14):
End of season one.
Allison learns her father is ahunter.
Her father's, I won't kill himif you agree to never see him
again.
Starcross lovers, Romeo andJuliet.
Here we go.
Boom.
Season one ends.
Everybody expects Scott andAllison to be the stars of the
show.
Boom.
Nope.
It's Starek.
Everybody wants Styles and Derektogether.
They start winning shipcompetitions everywhere.
(17:37):
And MTV immediately leans intoit.
They start running campaigns.
They start putting Dylan O'Brienand Tyler Hecklin on boats
together.
We're on a ship.
Really hamming it up.
Loving it.
Loving the attention.
Their fandom starts raisingmoney for causes, starts doing
(17:57):
all kinds of stuff underSteric's name.
And again, they're reallyencouraging it.
They're going on lives, all ofthem, they're all talking about
their favorite ship beingStarek.
Even Holland Roden.
And everybody is in on it.
And Holland Roden's supposed tobe the love interest of Styles.
And then in between season oneand season two, Tyler Hecklin
(18:19):
goes from hot 17-year-oldlooking twink to hot 30-year-old
looking twunk.
Same guy.
Yes, he just hit, I would callit a growth spurt, I guess.
But he went from being ripped inswimmer form to being roided up
(18:42):
almost.
And I don't mean he tooksteroids, just he had that like
look, all of a sudden he's got afull beard.
All of a sudden he's just gothair everywhere.
He just sprouted.
And there was no hiding the factthat he is not, in fact, a
teenage boy.
So then I think they got scaredbecause Styles is supposed to be
17 in the show.
And now Tyler Heckland goes fromlooking 19 to looking 29.
(19:06):
And they were like, if we did gothere, it might look sus.
And they just start changing upthe math because in season one,
they mention that Derek was acouple of years ahead of them in
school, right?
So now they're, I want to saythey were juniors when the show
starts.
So you're like, oh, okay.
So they're 16, 17, he's 19 or20.
(19:29):
Not a big deal.
All of a sudden, they just startmaking the math further and
further apart every season.
And so that never happened.
Like they never said that.
And of course, people startgoing, what the fuck?
And then I don't know whathappened, but all of a sudden,
the whole show turned on thesteric fandom.
Like Steric helped them win anaward, and like Tyler Posey
(19:52):
walked off stage and tossed theaward.
Real nasty.
SPEAKER_03 (19:56):
What?
SPEAKER_02 (19:57):
Yeah.
And then they started making funof people who were shipping
steric.
They started openly mocking themon social media, calling them
crazy, saying there was noreason for them to even think
that steric was a thing.
They got real nasty with it.
And not everybody, but TylerPosey was pretty vocal about it.
(20:21):
And it could have just been sourgrapes, because he is supposed
to be the lead, the maincharacter of the show.
And it was very clearly becomingnot about him.
But they were still queerbaiting.
There's a scene where Styles ismaking out with this girl who in
the beginning of the season waswith another girl.
And he's like, I thought youlike girls.
(20:42):
And she's like, I do.
And he's like, but you also likeboys.
And she's like, Yeah.
And he's like, oh, cool.
And she's like, and you likegirls?
And he's like, yeah.
And she's like, Do you like boystoo?
And he like pauses.
Like he's thinking about it.
And so everybody's like, okay,so they are telling us that he's
(21:04):
at least questioning that he'sbisexual, or at least
questioning that he's bisexual.
And they just keep doing this,but there's no payoff.
But when they started openlymocking the steric fandom, the
fandom left.
And they took their ratings withthem.
And they basically took all ofthe lore from the show.
(21:28):
They went to AO3 and theycreated their own fandom.
They created their own lore,their own sh everything.
They changed ships.
They changed people who weretogether.
They put other people together.
They brought back people fromthe dead that should have never
been killed off in the firstplace.
Everybody was obsessed with thelittle mini pack that Derek puts
(21:48):
together in season one.
One of the girls had epilepsyand they constantly made fun of
her.
And then he obviously put herthrough the werewolf machine,
and then all of a sudden she waslike super hot and evil.
Yeah, yeah.
And everybody really loved her.
They loved, God, I can'tremember his name now, but they
killed them all off.
And people were upset aboutthat.
(22:10):
So on AO3, they resurrectedthem, they created their own
packs, they changed things.
And but around all of that,steric was the key.
They were the big ship that hadeverybody held together.
And there were hundreds ofthousands of fanfics.
Between AO3, between Wattpad,between fanfic.net, there was so
many fics about them.
(22:30):
And ratings on the show startedto dip because nobody wanted to
watch the show because they hadfelt betrayed.
And if they had just queerbaited everybody, at this point
we're used to it.
And they probably would havestuck around.
And I want to say I watched tillseason five when Dylan O'Brien
got hurt on the set of the MazeRunner.
(22:51):
And he wasn't there for a wholeseason.
I watched almost to the bitterend, but I was what do you call
it?
Disheartened, I guess.
And it didn't matter anymorebecause it really became clear
that they just didn't give afuck about the people who were
making the show.
And it sucked because they hadsuch great lore.
(23:13):
They had, and when I was writingYA, I was writing all about like
Celtic mythology.
And Jeff Davis and I werebasically playing in the same
sandbox.
Banshees, werewolves.
We were writing about the sametypes of characters.
So I was obsessed with it atfirst.
But the more they talked shitabout the steric fandom, the
(23:34):
more people just stopped givinga shit about the show entirely,
which sucked because the lorewas still good.
They were still towards the end,just like every show, they were
phoning it in.
But they were trying.
SPEAKER_00 (23:45):
They were trying.
Well, they shot themselves inthe foot, right?
SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
Yeah.
And then Tyler Hecklin got therole of Superman.
So he started being written offthe show.
Dylan O'Brien was getting biggerand bigger because of the maze
runner.
He still kept coming back.
But then when he got into thatnear fatal accident where he got
sucked under the truck that wasfilming him during a stunt and
(24:09):
fractured pretty much every bonein his face, he had to be gone
for almost a year of doingreconstructive surgery.
Um, yeah.
And so they had to write him offthe show for a little while.
And then when he came back, hisface wasn't a hundred percent,
he was still swollen, he wasstill like, so they had him
(24:30):
coming in and out, and it just,I don't know, it just didn't
work.
And it just didn't work.
It makes me mad because it wassuch a good show, and I feel
like they've ruined it with justtheir inability to handle the
fact that people wanted a gayship that they themselves not
(24:54):
only hinted at, but even said,Oh, well, we might make it
happen.
We might make it happen.
SPEAKER_00 (24:58):
I wonder what changed.
Well, you said because he lookedolder.
SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
I that was one thing.
I also think probably just likethey shoved Colton Haynes back
in the closet, I think they wereprobably like, yeah, on screen
it would look great, but in reallife, Tyler Hecklin playing
Superman, Dylan O'Brien playingthis maze runner character, it
might ruin your future to play agay character, you know, now,
(25:24):
this early in your career.
Also, there's rumors that TylerHecklin is gay in real life, and
they may have been worried thathim playing a gay character
would that narrative a littleharder about him being gay in
real life.
Because there was always theseblind items, heavily implying
that he and his girlfriend atthe time, who was remember in
(25:47):
Pitch Perfect, the girl who'salways flirting with Anna
Kendricks, the main character.
Oh, what the hell is her name?
Britney Snow.
Her name's Britney Snow in reallife.
I've never watched PitchPerfect.
Oh, really?
Oh my gosh, that's crazy.
Uh but anyway, Britney Snow andTyler Heckland dated, I want to
say for a few years, andeverybody was like, they're not
(26:08):
really dating, they're beardingfor each other because she's the
lesbian and he's gay, and theydon't want anybody to know.
I don't know if that's true ornot.
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
People I'm just I'm gonna tell you, they say it
about everybody, the gay loresin particular.
SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
Yeah, well, I'm just saying, I wouldn't doubt if
Taylor Swift is bisexual, butyou can still like men too, you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (26:28):
But it's also none of my business, you know what I
mean?
SPEAKER_02 (26:30):
It's none of my but I think that that might have had
something to do with it.
Maybe just their management waslike, this could fuck up your
career if you do it this early.
Because Dylan O'Brien has playedgay characters now.
He's played gay characters, he'splayed trans characters, or not
trans, cross-dressingcharacters.
But anyway, he clear and I thinkhis sister is queer, so I don't
(26:53):
think that they had any problemmalice, right, you know, or
anything against gay charactersin any way.
I just think that somewherealong the way, somebody put the
kibosh on it.
And instead of just saying,Yeah, we would love to do it,
but unfortunately, that's justnot how we plotted the series,
blah, blah, blah.
(27:13):
There could have been a milliondifferent ways to handle it, but
instead, somehow they chose toturn on the fandom that helped
make them.
And it really just caused thewhole trajectory of the show to
just crash and burn.
Right.
And even when they came back andthey did the movie, they still
pushed Styles and Derektogether.
(27:35):
They still made it where theywere on screen a ton.
Even though Styles is now withLydia, even Lydia is making
jokes about how Styles and Derekare always together, blah, blah,
blah.
How she's basically implying howshe's like one of those girls
that just has to deal with thefact that her man has another.
SPEAKER_00 (27:57):
Yeah, but then they never give it to you.
So then it's kind of it makes iticky.
SPEAKER_02 (28:02):
And again, it's that same thing we talked about
before.
If you're going to do theunresolved sexual tension and
you have no intention of givingthem that payoff, don't do it.
Because I tell you right now, ifJeff Davis ever just showed up
with another show, I'd be like,no.
Like, I still watch CriminalMinds, and now all of a sudden,
(28:22):
Criminal Minds is gay as fuck.
Just so you know, there wasn't asingle gay to be found in the
original Criminal Minds, but inthe reboot of Criminal Minds,
canonically straight charactersare now gay.
And good.
Because you know what?
People in the middle of theirlives decide, I'm tired of
pretending I'm not attracted towomen.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Every day a lesbian is born.
That's right.
I haven't given up hope that I'mactually not straight.
SPEAKER_02 (28:52):
Listen, quite a dollar for every woman who sat
at home hoping that one daythey're just gonna look at
another woman and be like, ohno, I am actually a lesbian, or
I am bisexual.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Please.
I've tried it quite a few times.
And every time I was like, Iwish I liked this so much.
You so pretty.
SPEAKER_02 (29:15):
I like anything.
I don't really, I don't reallyhave a preference.
I learned that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:19):
I know whore.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
A celibate whore.
I know, right?
And the amount of sex I've had,I feel like I've really just
earned the right to retire.
Just ran out.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
There's like a finite amount of sex someone
should have.
Because I disagree.
I think you could be having alot of people.
SPEAKER_02 (29:37):
Because my numbers, and I guess my takeaway as far
as authors go is for the love ofGod, do not disappoint your
readers and don't queer bait.
We see this a lot in Tradpub,where if you are querying a
manuscript and you go to lookfor an agent, you see a ton of
(29:58):
agents that are like, we'reLooking for POC characters,
people of color, we're lookingfor BIPOC authors, we're looking
for queer characters, andsomehow they pick authors
writing queer characters who arestraight white women who in no
(30:19):
way have any queer history.
And you're just how is it ifyou're looking for diversity?
There's no diversity to befound.
And you get, and I know it's outthere because I have tons of
indie friends who are queer.
Indy is where India.
SPEAKER_00 (30:39):
Yeah.
Safic in particular is reallyhard to find in like a Barnes
and Noble traditionallypublished.
SPEAKER_02 (30:47):
Savic because it doesn't sell and it sucks.
But I don't, you know what itis?
It's because straight women readgay romance, but straight women
won't read lesbian romance.
(31:08):
And again, it goes back to alot.
I know a lot of gay men like tosay that women are fetishizing
them.
And I'm not saying that therearen't women out there,
especially of a certaindemographic, who do fetishize
gay men.
But a lot of women are readingMM romance because it allows
(31:30):
them to read a story that hasnothing to do with them.
They don't have to identify withany character.
They're just sitting back andwatching two people fall in love
without having to put themselvesin either character's shoes.
Which when you're readingstraight romance, unfortunately,
if you like dark romance, youare you basically have all kinds
(31:56):
of misogyny stuffed down yourthroat, literally in some cases.
SPEAKER_00 (32:01):
And they tell you to like it.
So it's he fucked you with thegun over the side of the boat
while the sharks were swarming,right?
No offense.
And if you're into that, I'm notyucking, you're yum.
But it's a little rapey, and youknow what, and that's fine.
Emphasizing about things anddoing them are different.
SPEAKER_02 (32:16):
Fine.
I don't care.
I'm not at all about censoringwhat people enjoy or write.
I don't care.
Write anything you want.
Absolutely.
However, me personally, I likewriting dark romance and I like
writing BDSM romance, but Idon't want to push a narrative
(32:39):
that a lot of these BDSMstraight romances push that
says, if you're a sub in thebedroom, you're a sub in every
aspect of your life.
And that's just not true.
Most people who are submissiveare actually very dominant
outside of the bedroom.
And that is why they look forsubmission in the bedroom
because they don't want to thinkanymore.
(33:00):
They don't want to makedecisions in the bedroom.
They have to make decisionseverywhere else.
They just want to turn theirbrains off.
And that never seems to be thecase in these books.
And if you've ever met actualDoms who know what they're doing
and are actually into thatlifestyle, these are normal
(33:21):
people.
Outside of the scene, they'rejust normal people.
They aren't misogynistic in anyway, shape, or form.
They're just your boyfriend.
They're just your Dom if you'renot even in a relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (33:33):
They are not their kinks, right?
So even if you're a furry, ifyou're a foot guy, like I know
we joke about the foot stuff,that's just what you're into.
I don't know if you have anyreal control over it, but your
kink isn't your personality.
SPEAKER_02 (33:45):
Somebody who was forced to study like human
sexuality when I was in nursingschool, you don't.
When you're between the ages of10 and 12, they have this thing
called, and it sounds so creepy,but it's called your love map.
Okay.
And whatever is happening whenyou hit that sort of puberty, it
imprints in your brain.
(34:06):
And so that is how peopledevelop not only not necessarily
just kinks, but preferences.
Yeah.
You know, some people likebigger women, some people like
smaller, some people like biggermen, some people like smaller.
And it can also warp into somepeople find feet sexually
appealing.
SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
It's something that's you stumble upon.
Somebody's like, want to trythis?
And you're like, eh, no, andthen you try it and you're like,
wow.
Well, it's like a meme more.
Yeah, it's that meme where it'slike me reading a new king.
You know, where it's like, yeah,I'm into it.
Also, to go back to reading malemale, it's also where as someone
who reads pretty traditionallyall the time, it's always I
(34:48):
gotta listen to at least ahundred to two hundred words of
how tiny she is.
How she's also gonna take overthe world, obviously.
Yeah, she's obviously the mostpowerful, she's just super
skinny, she's so tiny, she's sobeautiful, she's so this, she's
gotta pick between this guy andthat guy, and she's never gonna
pick the blonde one.
(35:08):
We already know what's going onthere.
She's gonna pick the guy who'slike kind of sarcastic to her,
but we're calling it darkromance.
I don't know.
But to your point, I think whereyou're just reading about two
men fall in love.
It isn't, and I think peopleoversexualize your books.
There is sex in your books, butpeople aren't always reading it
to fucking goon.
You know what I mean?
They're reading it becausethere's a story, it's eight
(35:29):
fucking books.
You think the whole thing isthey're all just banging all the
time?
They're banging, but they'redoing stuff.
You have to have a plot.
People really are patronizingwhen it comes to that.
They call it gay porn, it's notgay porn, and a lot of people
jokingly say that about mybooks.
SPEAKER_02 (35:45):
Melissa used to say that all the time, yeah.
Yeah, and it used to annoy theshit out of me because I don't
write gay porn, I write gayromance, right?
Gay romance, but because it'stwo men, we're calling it gay
porn, and it it people thinkthat excuses it in some way, or
that makes it okay to read gayromance, but it's mostly just
porn, which it to me is theexact opposite.
(36:06):
Like somebody told me that theywere just reading a gay romance
for the sex, I'd be like, that'screepy and weird, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Or if a woman likes uh a drag in school and people
are fucking it's smut, but like99.99, they only fuck at the
last 50 pages, and that's justdiminishing things that women
like, it's diminishing the LGBTQcommunity, it's just a way to
subscribe to purity culture as awhole.
(36:32):
Women shouldn't enjoy readingabout sex, certainly shouldn't
enjoy watching two men fall inlove.
Because why would you?
Because you're not involved, asif our minds can't process
something that doesn't involveus, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (36:45):
Enjoy something unless we're the center of it.
Which I mean some men can'tenjoy something unless it's
about them.
I don't know, I don't know, youknow, and I think that some men
think that women sexualize gayromance because I think that men
sexualize two women together.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, and I don't mean gay menbecause I'm that, but I think
(37:07):
straight men see two womentogether and they're fine with
it because they're like, oh no,two women together is hot.
SPEAKER_00 (37:14):
Yeah, because he thinks he could interrupt that.
They're I get it.
He thinks he could have that,you know what I mean?
Two women being in love and in acommitted relationship is not
real to them.
They can't conceptually oh who'sthe guy?
There is no guy.
SPEAKER_02 (37:28):
That's the point, babe.
To to process it in their brain.
SPEAKER_00 (37:33):
Not all straight guys, by the way.
Of course not.
We're not broad strokes.
SPEAKER_02 (37:39):
Yeah.
Whenever we're generalizing, Iwould like to think that the
guys who aren't like that, thetwo that are listening, like I
would like to think it's notyou, Robert.
Robert, we love you.
Yeah, it's not you guys.
We're not talking about you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:53):
It's a certain group, and we know who they are.
The Chads, the Brads, right?
What Taylor said to the Chads,the Brads, and the Dads.
Yep.
That's who we're talking about.
SPEAKER_02 (38:01):
Yeah.
And I got so tired of feelinggross when I read a romance
novel.
When, and again, I hate to sayit, but it's after Fifty Shades
showed up on the scene that itjust I don't know that it
started to feel misogynistic, orif it just shined such a big
(38:27):
spotlight on it by being so overthe top that it made me confront
the fact.
Remember the movie TheSecretary?
Okay, and here's the thing, Ilove the movie The Secretary.
SPEAKER_00 (38:43):
I liked it too.
Was it problematic?
SPEAKER_02 (38:46):
It was it's problematic in that he started a
BDS relationship with somebodywithout their consent and
without any kind of abuse her alittle bit.
SPEAKER_01 (39:03):
He used it to shift her from self-harm into a
slightly healthier pain,sexuality.
SPEAKER_00 (39:21):
Yeah, but then remember he made her sit at that
desk and kiss herself and stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (39:25):
But that wasn't really abuse.
That was more I'm so deep intothe BDSM culture.
It was I want to say like atest.
It was a way for her to prove,but also for her to be, look
what I can do.
I'm so good at being your subthat I will sit here until the
(39:49):
end of time.
SPEAKER_00 (39:50):
And then all her family comes in trying to
convince her to get up.
SPEAKER_02 (39:53):
Yeah, and I think he left because he always leaves,
and he was just, yeah, I neverfell in love with the others,
and I left, and I am in lovewith her, but I have to leave
because I'm the problem kind ofthing.
Yeah.
She was, I don't care thatyou're a problem, kind of.
I like your problems.
I like your problems.
Your problems and my problemswere they're both two deeply
(40:16):
fucked up people whose crazymatches each other.
And that's my whole brand.
SPEAKER_00 (40:23):
Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_02 (40:25):
Two deeply fucked up people who are toxic for anybody
else in the world whose crazymatches in a way that they're
toxic works for them, you know?
Because I don't think there'sany such thing as a perfect
relationship.
You can have somebody who'sperfect for you, but you can't
really have somebody who'sperfect.
They don't exist.
And if they did, they wouldannoy the fuck out of you.
(40:46):
Because you're not nobody is,nobody's perfect.
And if you somehow foundsomebody who behaves as if they
were, there's probably somethingdeeply, deeply wrong with them
that they're hiding.
Those are the people who one dayyou go into the freezer and
suddenly there's six heads inthere.
Like those people are neverreally they have a second
family, exactly.
There's always something, andyou find out at the will they
(41:09):
appear, the weirder they turnout to be.
So I like showing how toxicpeople fit together.
I don't know, because again, Ilike the toxicity in fiction, I
like dark romance, I don't likemisogyny, I don't like toxic
relationships in which they'remean to each other, they're too
(41:33):
possessive of each other in anegative, abusive way.
You can be toxic to everybodyelse, but you're not allowed to
be toxic to your partner.
SPEAKER_00 (41:42):
And so that's why I write I'm not into the I know a
lot of people and if you're intohim being like super like I get
the mob romances and stuffbecause I'm I'm a straight white
lady on book talk.
SPEAKER_02 (41:54):
Yeah, I don't like abusive possessiveness.
The if I can't have you, nobodywill kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (42:00):
Yeah, like I'll literally I'll kill you.
SPEAKER_02 (42:01):
Like literally you, yeah, I'll literally kill you.
And some of them are into it.
SPEAKER_00 (42:06):
Yeah, I'm more into the I'll kill the world, I'll
burn the world for you.
Yeah, that's more my jam a lamb.
SPEAKER_02 (42:14):
That's why I like writing the villains who are
like it's the fuck everybody butyou.
Yeah, yeah, but also they're nothurting women, they're not
hurting children, they're notout there hurting innocent
people because I need myviolence to have morals, and I
just tried to write superimmoral characters, and it just
(42:34):
doesn't work for me.
It just doesn't work for me.
I my brain instantly just goes,nope, nope, nope, nope, nope,
nope.
I can't do it.
SPEAKER_00 (42:40):
Well, because these are your characters, so like
they're there are people in yourbrain.
Yeah, like there are people inyour brain, they're just
existing little psychopathsbouncing around in your brain.
So you're like, my baby wouldn'tdo that.
Let me stop.
SPEAKER_02 (42:54):
And that's the funny thing is I'm writing the sequel
to um disciplinary action, whichwas my first Daddy Kink book
that was full BDSM.
And I decided to write thesecond book about the villain in
the first book.
So I had to make sure that hewas basically going to suffer
(43:15):
for what he did to my characterin the first book.
And you better, because you knowthey're gonna be waiting.
He's going to suffer, but the hebasically enters into a very I
wanted to take Fifty Shades ofGrey and do it my way.
So it's a logic puzzle to me.
It's like I have to make itwork, but I have to make it work
in a way that's not dark, butit's not icky.
SPEAKER_00 (43:38):
It's dark, but it's not icky, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (43:40):
Yeah, and it's fun for me to just keep towing the
line a little bit further andfurther.
Sorry, we got into a wholedifferent aspect.
SPEAKER_00 (43:47):
I think we stayed on topic more today than usual.
SPEAKER_02 (43:49):
I really think we do, but that's just because I'm
real heated about Twilight.
It all again, it like our shipof the week.
It's what could have been.
It's the same thing withCastell.
Your ship finally does becomecanon, and I'll say that there's
a show on air called 911, andthere's two characters in the
(44:10):
show 911, Eddie and Buck, Ithink they are.
And are you gonna say they'reboth firefighters?
Maybe one of them's a paramedic.
I'm not sure.
I don't watch the show, so ifI'm wrong, guys, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (44:20):
So that was right up your alley, so they're in the
eye.
SPEAKER_02 (44:22):
And everybody was, yeah, they're definitely into
each other.
They're definitely a ship, butthey should be canon.
And they were basically soanti-willing to make this
happen.
They created an entirely newspin-off called 911 Lone Star.
It's basically takes place inTexas, and Rob Lowe plays the
chief of the fire department,and he basically creates the
(44:44):
queerest fire department in allof Texas.
It's just BIPOC everywhere.
You've got his son who's gay,you have a trans firefighter,
you have a Muslim firefighter,his gay son is dating a police
officer who is also gay.
It was almost like they justover-corrected.
They were like, Oh, you wantgays?
(45:05):
Here, but no, you can't makethese guys because there's too
many Republican, you know, whitenationalists that love 911 that
we can't have we can't have thegays because they'll revolt.
Well, then the show gotcancelled and it got picked up
by a different network, and theywere like, Oh, you want gay?
(45:27):
We'll make them gay.
And so they made one of the twoof them gay, start dating a man,
not the other one that they shipwith, and everybody went, wait a
minute, what the fuck?
We said we wanted these twotogether, not that we just
(45:47):
wanted them gay.
But it seems like what they'redoing is they wanted to put him
in a relationship with a man sothat the other one in the ship
was like, Whoa, not only are yougay, but you're not gay for me.
What the fuck, man?
We're raising a child together,yeah.
(46:08):
And so I think they're justslowly getting there, you know,
they're trying to make it arealistic transition versus just
like bippity bobbity-boo, nowyou're both gay.
Yeah, you just catch each otherin the middle.
I'm only kind of watching itfrom the sidelines, so I don't
have all the details.
I watch a lot of shows viaTikTok clips, yeah.
But I can tell you that sincethey did start transitioning,
(46:30):
the ratings went through theroof, everybody's talking about
it.
I know because I heard about itand I don't watch the show.
So sometimes doing the thingthat your audience wants is
gonna save your show.
Again, look at the vampirediaries.
In she's canonically in thebooks with Stefan.
(46:50):
It didn't work in the show.
No, it didn't.
The chemistry between her andDamon was too good, and it would
not have been believable for herto look at Damon and have all of
this sexual tension and thenlook at Stefan, who she didn't
have any real chemistry with,and be like, No, I choose that
(47:12):
guy.
It just you would have had tohave been Stefan was just
hotter.
SPEAKER_00 (47:18):
Damon was just hotter, even in the books.
I was like, You're dumb.
Yeah, you're dumb.
I was 13, I was like, You'restupid.
SPEAKER_02 (47:25):
Listen, uh when Damon ends up with the fat
redhead, my teenage heart wassinging.
I'm a fat redhead, I could havehad Damon.
This is me, she's writing aboutme.
I could have had him, buthonestly, and it's interesting
because again, he ends up withBonnie in the books, but you
(47:46):
could see the chemistry betweenhim and Bonnie in the show, too.
But when you saw them asfriends, you went, yeah, that
still makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (47:55):
Yeah, like no, but then they were like made it
happen.
You know what they she can'thave, though, is a happy ending
because we're gonna have we'regonna go ahead and kill him.
SPEAKER_02 (48:03):
Listen, I am telling you, and I might get in trouble
for saying this, but it seemsvery clear that Julie Pleck had
it out for Catgram.
SPEAKER_00 (48:14):
I think that's pretty canon.
I think everybody knows I thinkshe said it out loud.
I think multiple cast membershave said that out loud.
SPEAKER_02 (48:21):
I think that she just, I don't know what it was.
Now, I know with the guy whoplays Alaric, it's just that
he's a big fucking racist Trumpsupporter.
Yeah, but he looks like one.
That's yeah, I don't know ifthat's the same thing with Julie
Pluck, uh, or if there was someother beef we don't know about.
SPEAKER_00 (48:38):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (48:39):
They seem determined to just fuck over Cat Graham,
which is crazy to me becauseshe's beautiful, she's an
excellent actress, she can singlike fucking crazy.
She speaks like five fuckinglanguages.
They could have done a milliondifferent things with her
character.
Yep.
But instead, they killed Enzo.
God damn it, they killed Enzo.
(48:59):
I loved him so much.
SPEAKER_00 (49:01):
It was I love that's why I'm more I at the end of the
day, I was more of an originalsfan than even the vampire
diaries because the originals,oh, that is such a sexy show.
SPEAKER_02 (49:11):
And I think it's because it's just the vampires
are just hotter, they're justlike and they they had less
morality, you know what I mean?
Like you never knew what theywere gonna do.
They tried to keep the morals inthe vampire diaries because
that's one, it was canon in thebooks, but also like even when
Damon was doing somethingcompletely fucking off the wall,
(49:33):
just balls out crazy.
No, you still found a way tojustify it in your head.
You can't justify the shit thatthe originals did.
Plus, I just love New Orleans,so like was just fucking insane.
SPEAKER_00 (49:50):
He was freaking hot, Caroline.
You're an idiot, Caroline.
You're I would have folded.
He wouldn't even how easy itwould have been, he wouldn't
have even wanted it.
He'd have been like, hello, andI said, bite me.
SPEAKER_03 (50:02):
Just fall over with her legs in the air.
SPEAKER_00 (50:04):
Whatever you want, it's yours forever, 100,000
years.
SPEAKER_02 (50:09):
That guy in my book Rogue, like I used him as inspo
for the brother.
That's the just the literalworst.
And people were so mad at me forusing him as the villain
villain.
I was like, Did you see Klaus'scharacter?
SPEAKER_00 (50:23):
I didn't care.
And you know when he did theright thing when the other
vampires were trying to takeover New Orleans and they got
out of hands.
Okay, Daddy Klaus had to handlethat.
And what was it?
What's his brother's name?
Because he could get it too.
What's his brother's name?
No, okay, Elijah.
SPEAKER_02 (50:35):
Oh, that's mine.
That's mine.
Klaus, yes, I get it.
I get the appeal, but Elijahthat cop was such a gentleman
until he wasn't.
That man would murder eightpeople in a suit, in a suit, and
just show up at your front doorand find a way to get in.
SPEAKER_00 (50:55):
He was that quiet, he could get it too.
I mean, it's a why chooseadventure at this point.
Even the sister, yeah.
Oh, sister.
Poor Rebecca.
SPEAKER_02 (51:05):
They were so.
Mick had such a crush on herbecause she was in uh HTO.
So was the girl who playedHaley.
The girl who played Haley andthe girl who played Rebecca both
played in HTOO.
That's funny.
SPEAKER_00 (51:15):
I remember she loved that show, yeah.
I remember Kaylee loved thatshow too.
SPEAKER_02 (51:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:19):
Um ended up being the girls.
SPEAKER_02 (51:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:23):
But Rebecca, poor.
Is it are we have wait?
Let's do the vampire.
SPEAKER_02 (51:27):
Save this for the vampire.
SPEAKER_00 (51:28):
We already just this is a two for one.
This is longer than we usuallygo to.
SPEAKER_02 (51:31):
This is basically three part.
The 20, like there's like, Idon't know, 20 minutes of it is
the sound check on Patreon.
But but yeah, no, we'll pickthis up next week and we'll do
the vampire directory.
SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
And we have to capture Taylor and what is going
on in my personal fandom rightnow.
unknown (51:49):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (51:50):
Well, do you want to do Taylor Swift next week or do
you want to do the VampireSwift?
Okay, we'll do Taylor Swift.
They're already coming backaround.
They're already coming backaround on Life of a Showgirl.
You stupid newbie bitches.
SPEAKER_02 (52:01):
Well, that's what happens.
They had they had to like theyimmediate backlash, and then a
bunch of people were like, Thisisn't fucking about you.
And then they realized that ifthey kept talking shit, they
were gonna suddenly look likethe assholes instead of calling
her an asshole.
But we're gonna get into thatnext week.
Oh, I know all the lore, baby.
And I'm going to do someresearch and listen to the new
(52:22):
album so I at least have anappeal.
SPEAKER_00 (52:25):
Listen to listen to the album, but don't do any
research.
Because I what do I know aboutKaka Doo doo nothing when you're
talking about it?
SPEAKER_02 (52:30):
No, no, I meant just by research, I meant I'm gonna
listen to the album.
That's about all I have to do.
SPEAKER_00 (52:34):
Watch some reactions from your favorite reactors.
SPEAKER_02 (52:37):
Oh no, I can because I have Knox Hill's Patreon and
he did the entire album, so I'llwatch with him.
SPEAKER_00 (52:43):
Elizabeth Taylor is one of my favorites.
SPEAKER_02 (52:46):
Wait, Elizabeth Taylor, the actress?
Isn't she dead?
SPEAKER_00 (52:49):
Uh The Fate of Ophelia, Opalite, Top Three.
I don't love Cancelled.
It's not, it's a no-skip albumfor me.
All of them are.
But Cancelled is not necessarilymy favorite.
Uh oh, we'll get into it.
unknown (53:04):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (53:04):
All right, we'll get into it next week.
Actually, I think personally,what I think your favorite song
is gonna be is actuallyromantic.
That's what I think is gonna beyour favorite song.
We'll see.
SPEAKER_02 (53:13):
Okay, okay, we'll see.
Anyway, if you liked thisdiatribe, please rate with you,
subscribe, download.
Downloads really help us.
A lot of you showed up last weekfor episode four and brought
those numbers.
So thank you.
Most people don't get yeah, mostpeople don't get those numbers
in a month.
We got them in a week, so weappreciate you.
SPEAKER_00 (53:34):
We love we love that you listen to our ramblings.
SPEAKER_02 (53:37):
Yes.
You want more breakdowns if youwant literally my emotional
breakdown.
SPEAKER_00 (53:43):
I'll can FaceTime you guys personally if you want.
I usually have my breakdownaround 5:30 when the kids like
are really nuts and I'm tryingto and I'm touched out.
So no extra charge.
I actually could use thesupport.
SPEAKER_02 (53:55):
I can just I can just have her turn the cameras
on at five.
And if you want those breakdownson the Google Home levels, and
it's a literal breakdown.
SPEAKER_00 (54:05):
It's just yeah, or the gentle parenting is left and
uh things start gettingquestionable.
SPEAKER_02 (54:10):
At the$10 tier, we do have all of the tech stuff
that baby authors probably wantanswered, but don't know even
what to look for.
And then at the$25 level, wehave my my breakdowns.
No, my little obsession scrolls,they're like nine pages.
They give you all kinds of tipsand tricks and just fandom
(54:33):
things you can do in your ownbooks to help build your own
fandoms.
They're about nine pages.
There's usually worksheetsinvolved.
SPEAKER_00 (54:41):
So if that's your thing, that tickles your pickle.
SPEAKER_02 (54:45):
Yeah, exactly.
That's the$25 tier.
Tech is the$10 tier, and thenthe$5 tier is all of this
without the ads, without thecuts, with all of our ums,
likes, and uhs.
SPEAKER_00 (54:57):
Oh, yeah, that's fun, you guys.
That's a benefit.
Yeah, I'm not gonna lie.
SPEAKER_02 (55:02):
I do go through, but I do take some of the ums and
likes out because I can't handleit.
SPEAKER_01 (55:09):
You're alone.
SPEAKER_02 (55:19):
And then I wonder if somebody's editing it's on the
cutting room floor, babe, forsure.
All right, guys, we will talk toyou next week.
Bye.
Hey everybody, welcome to episode five of the
Feral Phantoms podcast.
Today we are going to be divinginto Teen Wolf, and I have a
lot.
Twilight.
A lot to say.
We did Twilight already, episodethree.
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
Oh no, no, no, you're right.
My bad, my bad, my bad.
Sorry.
SPEAKER_02 (00:28):
Girl, it was only two episodes ago.
unknown (00:30):
What the hell?
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Anyway, I'm only James, gay romance author, and
this is Shannon, who apparentlyis very forgetful.
SPEAKER_00 (00:40):
Forgetful Shannon.
That's it.
You get no other informationabout me.
It's just Shannon.
I blackout.
I'm actually blackout drunk whenI do these at 11 in the morning.
So just that's my I can onlyhave a personality wasted.
So people are going to believeyou.
Good.
Write your letters.
Next week, Shannon'sintervention.
(01:01):
So write your letters.
I love when people write yourletters.
SPEAKER_02 (01:08):
We are both very tired today.
Neither of us got any sleep.
So this is going to be the oldschool, we're here for the
occult stuff, absolutely runningon caffeine version of us today.
Yeah.
When people stop being politeand start getting real.
(01:28):
Aging ourselves.
No shit.
So yeah, we're going to talkabout a teen wolf today.
And like I said, I have a lot tosay.
I was a huge, huge, huge TeenWolf fan until they kind of
screwed the pooch, in myopinion.
And this is basically just goingto be a masterclass on what not
to do when you have a supersuccessful show.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
And I'm assuming werewolves.
I've never seen it.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
We call them werewolves because for
werewolves, they were allweirdly hair-free when they were
in human form.
SPEAKER_00 (02:00):
Oh boo!
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
I like a hair.
Even they used to make fun ofthe fact that somehow none of
them had any hair on theirbodies.
So they used to call themwerewolves instead of
werewolves.
That's hilarious.
But yeah, it ran from I did notrealize it started in 2011 and
it ran till 2018, which seemslike yesterday to me.
(02:23):
Yes.
Even though I guess technicallyit's seven years ago, almost
eight, but it just seems likeyesterday, literally.
And it was loosely based on the1980s movie with Michael J.
Fox called Teen Wolf, which hadthe silliest looking wolves in
it.
It was very much a werewolves ofLondon wearing a letterman
(02:45):
jacket with fuzzy paws stickingout, kind of.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Like the Michael Jackson video.
With the werewolves in that.
unknown (02:51):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
Yes, exactly.
Lazy werewolfing.
I get it.
Yes, very, very lazy.
Jacob would be verydisappointed.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There was definitely no likebadass kind of sound.
Or like vampire diaries wherethey have to chain themselves
up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there was like, yeah, theirbones are cracking.
Yes.
That's right.
They did show the transition inthe vampire diaries because the
first time Tyler ever changes,it is the sound.
It's graphic.
SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:18):
The bones are cracking the sound.
That's why I could definitelynot want to be a werewolf if I
don't want to be a werewolfanyway.
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
It seems like they lose.
Unless I'm like sentient, I'mlike still me, and I'm just like
sneaking around like a littlewolf.
SPEAKER_02 (03:31):
Some of them are, and depending on your lore, some
people are still very much awareof who they are.
SPEAKER_03 (03:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:36):
And then some people, like in Teen Wolf, they
don't really turn into a fullwolf.
They become hybrid, a furry, ifyou will.
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
A furry.
Okay, so are they on two legs?
Is that what we're talkingabout?
They lope.
Oh what?
SPEAKER_02 (03:52):
They lope.
Like so they're still in humanform, but they run on all fours.
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
Okay, so they're weight.
Okay, good question.
So okay, so they're humans.
So they're humans, they'refurry.
They have fangs.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (04:06):
Pointy ears.
Paws.
We have paws.
They have paws, they have longnails, and then they they lope
like antelopes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:13):
Okay, I'm googling a teen wolf in full form, right?
I need to see this.
Teen wolf as a wolf.
SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Okay, but you might get Derek, who has the ability
to turn into a full wolfeventually.
Wait.
Oh, so they just get like weirdforeheads?
SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
Yes, they get weird, they get like Crow Magnon man
brow.
What the fuck is this, Martina?
That is not a werewolf.
Who told them that?
Okay, so they stick their jawout a little bit, okay?
They get a wider bridged nose,yeah.
Pointy ears, and then an emohaircut.
But yes, they have a very CrowMagnon man brow that arrives,
(04:52):
like and like they get thelittle emo haircut, and they've
got some chops, a little bit ofchops.
Yeah, yeah.
So they're actually not wolvesat all.
So to be clear, this is the man.
This is an odd-looking man.
I'll give them that.
SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
Very.
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
But this is in fact not a wolf.
SPEAKER_02 (05:11):
So I'm just saying he is.
If you guys are okay with it,I'm okay.
Obviously, people were into it.
Okay.
Again, I didn't get into TeenWolf until I got into the steric
fandom on AO3.
I started reading fanfics aboutStyles and Derek, the characters
on the show, before I ever gotinto Teen Wolf.
(05:32):
I thought they were canon.
I thought they were an actualcouple in Teen Wolf.
So I was really confused when Istarted watching the show.
Because at first, Styles, who'splayed by Dylan O'Brien, who
steals the show, by the way.
This is the whole, I think thisis kind of part of the beef with
(05:53):
beef.
What beef people?
SPEAKER_00 (05:55):
What's going on?
unknown (05:56):
Listen.
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
So 2011, boom, the show comes out.
People are these guys are hot.
It got a little bit of a buzzright from the beginning.
Nobody knew who Dylan O'Brienwas.
Tyler Posey was the star becausehe had been in a movie with
Jennifer Lopez when he was alittle kid.
So he was the one with the name,essentially.
(06:25):
But I had never heard of him.
I'd never heard of DylanO'Brien.
He was brand new, he'd neverdone anything before.
But episode one, Dylan O'Brien,his comedic timing, his sarcasm.
You know how much everybody justloves somebody who can deliver a
good sarcastic line.
He immediately overshadowedTyler Posey right off the bat.
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
But in real life, they became best friends.
Boom.
They were everywhere together.
I'm pretty sure there are stillbest friends to this day.
So everybody on the set gotreally close with each other.
But in season one, Styles is inlove with the rich girl who
doesn't give him the time ofday, played by Holland Roden.
Her name is Lydia in the show.
(07:09):
Lydia is dating Colton Haynescharacter.
His name is Jackson in the show.
Very, very hot, very rich, very,very date rapey douche kind of
energy.
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
I thought you were gonna say that, give him another
compliment.
I'm like, I'm into it.
Oh, date rapey, cool.
SPEAKER_02 (07:26):
He's not really date rapy with a big setup, but
really he has like a reallyaggressive nature, and he's a
bully, for sure.
And he's mean to Lydia, whopretends to be very stupid, even
though she's a genius, um, whichyou don't really figure out
until later on in the firstseason.
Um but it starts with Posey'scharacter, Dylan O'Brien's
(07:49):
character.
So Scott and uh Styles going tolook for a dead body.
Styles' dad is uh the sheriff.
He hears that there's been adead body's been found in the
woods.
He's let's go look for it.
If you want to go look for abody, and Scott says, What kind
of body?
A body of water, idiot.
A dead body.
That was a big thing.
This is MTV.
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
MTV.
SPEAKER_02 (08:10):
Yeah.
They used to play things besidesridiculousness?
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
That's weird.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
Well, this was like their first big fiction type
show, not a reality TV show.
Um, so they go, they find halfof a dead body, they freak out.
Scott, who has asthma, loses hisinhaler, the sheriff shows up,
sees Styles.
Styles pretends he's out therealone.
Scott gets left in the woods,styles leaves with his dad, and
(08:38):
Scott gets attacked by ananimal.
A wolf.
Or a man.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
That kind of looks a little bit weird.
SPEAKER_02 (08:45):
He gets attacked by a furry.
SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
Yes, not even a furry.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
The furry community, to be clear, is in more costume
than this.
It's true.
They are in much more costumeand probably aren't out in the
woods attacking people.
Probably.
Probably.
I don't like to do broadstrokes.
No broad strokes here.
I've never seen a furry crimebefore.
I will say that.
Other than some people thinkbeing a furry is a crime.
(09:10):
I don't.
You know.
I don't want to yuck anybody'syuck.
This is a safe space.
That's right.
Okay, so the next morning,obviously, just in typical
werewolf fashion, he wakes up,suddenly he doesn't need his
inhaler.
Suddenly he can hear things heshouldn't be able to hear, see
things he shouldn't be able tosee.
He's got a little child.
Yeah.
He and Styles have been on thelittle cross team for a long
(09:30):
time, but neither of them everget to play because they're bad.
Now all of a sudden, he's likejust abs.
He's all exactly.
You know how it goes.
Makeover transition.
Scott has no idea what's goingon.
He is very happily justconfused, per usual.
(09:52):
He's too busy noticing the newgirl, Allison, who just rolled
into town.
He's like, I want that girl.
I'm never gonna get that girl.
She's too hot.
She's already hanging out withthe cool kids.
But Alison's, she's hot, butshe's quirky.
You know the type.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
Yeah, pizza, bearn, football.
SPEAKER_02 (10:09):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
She wears short skirts, uh, wear t-shirts,
cheese, t-shirts.
SPEAKER_02 (10:15):
She sees Scott, she likes Scott, so she doesn't care
that her friends don't likeScott.
Um, Lydia and her immediatelybecome besties.
And even though Lydia is alittle bit of a bitch in season
one, she's still likable enoughthat you don't hate her on the
spot.
You do hate Jackson because he'snot only mean to everybody else,
(10:35):
he's mean to Lydia.
And what's the point?
Now, in real life, this isimportant, this is why I'm
telling you this.
Colton Haynes is very much outof the closet now.
He is, has an ex-husband, Ithink he has a current husband.
But at the time, he when he gotthe role on Teen Wolf, he was
already out, right?
He had gone to prom with anotherboy.
(10:56):
They immediately stuffed himback in the closet and forced
him and Holland Roden to pretendto date.
SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
What the fuck?
Yeah, in the big 2011.
SPEAKER_02 (11:06):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's why this whole thingis so sus.
Because Jeff Davis, who wrotethe show, also wrote Criminal
Minds, FYI.
Um, you love this guy.
Yeah.
Jeff Davis, gay.
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
You'd think he probably didn't make them date.
That sounds like a producer.
SPEAKER_02 (11:23):
He didn't make them date, but he did do a lot of
fucked up shit.
So sorry, Jeff Davis.
I'm just calling it like I seeit.
I'm not sure.
Don't unsubscribe shows.
SPEAKER_00 (11:32):
Jeff Davis, don't drop your Patreon subscription,
please.
We love you.
I've never watched anythingyou've ever done, but I will.
Don't listen to her.
SPEAKER_02 (11:40):
I'm scared that you, of all people, have never
watched Criminal Minds.
Your mother loved that show.
She's the one who got me intoCriminal Minds.
I'm gonna watch Teen Wolf afterthis.
It's so good.
I'm telling you.
It's good in that cheesy wayvampire diaries is good, you
know?
Like where everything's just soover the top and dramatic, but
you can't stop watching it.
You hate the main character somuch.
(12:01):
You don't like Scott.
You will in the beginning, andeventually he just becomes more
and more unlikable.
And Styles almost becomes themain character, which I'm sure
probably pissed Tyler Posey offa little bit, but he never
stopped being friends with DylanO'Brien.
Even when Dylan O'Brien gotsuper famous and did the maze
runner and all this other stuffand started getting main
(12:21):
character roles, and Tyler Poseystarted doing OnlyFans, they
were still besties, you know?
So OnlyFansy.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:29):
He's he's yeah.
We'll get to that too if we havetime.
Anyway, so we'll make time.
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
I want to hear about that.
SPEAKER_02 (12:37):
I love an entrepreneur.
One styles is constantly makingcomments that make you think
that he's bisexual.
In one part, he's asking if thegay kid at school thinks he's
attractive.
Another, he asks Scott if theycould just try making out to see
if they're into each other.
(12:58):
And then when I want to seeseason oh god, is it season
three, season four?
In one of them, they're killingvirgins, and Stylus is still a
virgin, and he's in the lockerroom and he's freaking out, and
he's somebody needs to sex meright now, basically.
I need to get laid.
And he's trying to get Scott tobasically take one for the team.
(13:20):
Somebody's gotta fuck me, dude,because I am probably the only
virgin left in school.
And so Danny, the gay kid,basically closes a locker and
he's like, I'll do it.
Styles is like, really?
Oh, that's so sweet.
Seriously?
And he's like, Yeah, plan onstaying the night.
I like to cuddle.
And he's like, really?
He's like, no, not really, youidiot.
(13:40):
And he like leaves.
Oh, boo! What the hell?
Styles is literallydisappointed.
Everybody's like, okay, yeah,he's bisexual.
Cool.
He can still like Lydia and bebisexual.
Right.
But whenever he is on screenwith Derek, the chemistry is
chemistrying.
Like to the point where even thewriters realized immediately
(14:03):
that their chemistry was sogood, they started manufacturing
reasons to put the two of themon screen together.
And then the Starek Phantom wasborn in season one, immediately
right off the bat, because it'sthe grumpy sunshine, it's the
enemies to lovers kind of thing,because everybody thinks that
Derek's A, a murderer, and B,he's the one who turns Scott.
(14:26):
He's neither of those things.
SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
He's not a murderer either.
Damn.
SPEAKER_02 (14:29):
No.
Well, he is eventually, but notthen.
SPEAKER_00 (14:31):
Not yet.
SPEAKER_02 (14:32):
Give it time.
He thinks he's a murdererbecause he gets involved with Al
Okay, so Allison's family turnsout to be werewolf hunters.
Oh, obviously, we need hunters.
He does not know that her familyhunts werewolves, and she does
not know that she's dating awerewolf.
SPEAKER_00 (14:47):
I get it.
Is there like an originalfamily?
Are they like a founding family?
Yes.
Yeah, okay, okay, okay.
I know the vibe.
SPEAKER_02 (14:55):
We've been hunting werewolves for hundreds of
years.
They're French.
Like her last name is Argent,which means silver.
Like, there's lore, and they getdeeper into that lore the
further you go into the show.
But she has no idea.
She just thinks her dad is anarms dealer, which is kind of
crazy in and of itself.
But you know, they have her momis wild.
(15:16):
Her mom is this super severelooking woman with uber short
red hair, looks like she couldkick your ass in a boxing ring,
right?
Okay.
Her dad is played by one of thehottest men alive.
Also, I'm almost 100% positiveis gay in real life.
Everybody in this show, a littlegay in real life.
(15:36):
It's crazy.
Some of the most talented peoplein the world.
What are you gonna do about it?
Right?
Um, but yeah, so her dad, superhot.
His name in the show is ChrisArgent, gorgeous, chef's kiss.
Uh and he, of course, isclocking that he knows all about
Derek's family because they area big family of actual
(15:58):
werewolves.
They weren't turned, they wereborn wolves.
So he's clocking Derek's family.
Derek is trying to recruitScott.
He still thinks that Derek's theone who turned him.
Nobody knows who actually turnedhim.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
Into a werewolf, not gay, to be clear.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
Like he's not actually turned people.
He's not propaganda, as far aswe know.
But Derek's family was killed ina fire.
You don't really know much moreabout that.
You just know he's basically anorphan, and all of his family,
including his extended family,died in a fire, except for his
uncle, who is basicallycatatonic, burned to a crisp,
(16:36):
and a nursing home, even thoughhe's in his 30s.
SPEAKER_00 (16:39):
Nice.
SPEAKER_02 (16:40):
He's just living his life.
SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
Laying it on a little thick, MTV.
All right.
Listen, they know how to write astory.
They said WB, pull my beer.
SPEAKER_02 (16:49):
They really did.
They really did.
They knew they had to competewith things like the vampire
diaries.
Yeah.
And charmed.
So the whole first season isjust who turned Scott.
Spoiler alert.
Turns out to be the uncle who'sin the coma.
Oh.
How do you do that from thecoma?
He's not in a coma.
He has arisen.
(17:10):
But you don't know that.
Sneaky!
unknown (17:13):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (17:14):
End of season one.
Allison learns her father is ahunter.
Her father's, I won't kill himif you agree to never see him
again.
Starcross lovers, Romeo andJuliet.
Here we go.
Boom.
Season one ends.
Everybody expects Scott andAllison to be the stars of the
show.
Boom.
Nope.
It's Starek.
Everybody wants Styles and Derektogether.
They start winning shipcompetitions everywhere.
(17:37):
And MTV immediately leans intoit.
They start running campaigns.
They start putting Dylan O'Brienand Tyler Hecklin on boats
together.
We're on a ship.
Really hamming it up.
Loving it.
Loving the attention.
Their fandom starts raisingmoney for causes, starts doing
(17:57):
all kinds of stuff underSteric's name.
And again, they're reallyencouraging it.
They're going on lives, all ofthem, they're all talking about
their favorite ship beingStarek.
Even Holland Roden.
And everybody is in on it.
And Holland Roden's supposed tobe the love interest of Styles.
And then in between season oneand season two, Tyler Hecklin
(18:19):
goes from hot 17-year-oldlooking twink to hot 30-year-old
looking twunk.
Same guy.
Yes, he just hit, I would callit a growth spurt, I guess.
But he went from being ripped inswimmer form to being roided up
(18:42):
almost.
And I don't mean he tooksteroids, just he had that like
look, all of a sudden he's got afull beard.
All of a sudden he's just gothair everywhere.
He just sprouted.
And there was no hiding the factthat he is not, in fact, a
teenage boy.
So then I think they got scaredbecause Styles is supposed to be
17 in the show.
And now Tyler Heckland goes fromlooking 19 to looking 29.
(19:06):
And they were like, if we did gothere, it might look sus.
And they just start changing upthe math because in season one,
they mention that Derek was acouple of years ahead of them in
school, right?
So now they're, I want to saythey were juniors when the show
starts.
So you're like, oh, okay.
So they're 16, 17, he's 19 or20.
(19:29):
Not a big deal.
All of a sudden, they just startmaking the math further and
further apart every season.
And so that never happened.
Like they never said that.
And of course, people startgoing, what the fuck?
And then I don't know whathappened, but all of a sudden,
the whole show turned on thesteric fandom.
Like Steric helped them win anaward, and like Tyler Posey
(19:52):
walked off stage and tossed theaward.
Real nasty.
SPEAKER_03 (19:56):
What?
SPEAKER_02 (19:57):
Yeah.
And then they started making funof people who were shipping
steric.
They started openly mocking themon social media, calling them
crazy, saying there was noreason for them to even think
that steric was a thing.
They got real nasty with it.
And not everybody, but TylerPosey was pretty vocal about it.
(20:21):
And it could have just been sourgrapes, because he is supposed
to be the lead, the maincharacter of the show.
And it was very clearly becomingnot about him.
But they were still queerbaiting.
There's a scene where Styles ismaking out with this girl who in
the beginning of the season waswith another girl.
And he's like, I thought youlike girls.
(20:42):
And she's like, I do.
And he's like, but you also likeboys.
And she's like, Yeah.
And he's like, oh, cool.
And she's like, and you likegirls?
And he's like, yeah.
And she's like, Do you like boystoo?
And he like pauses.
Like he's thinking about it.
And so everybody's like, okay,so they are telling us that he's
(21:04):
at least questioning that he'sbisexual, or at least
questioning that he's bisexual.
And they just keep doing this,but there's no payoff.
But when they started openlymocking the steric fandom, the
fandom left.
And they took their ratings withthem.
And they basically took all ofthe lore from the show.
(21:28):
They went to AO3 and theycreated their own fandom.
They created their own lore,their own sh everything.
They changed ships.
They changed people who weretogether.
They put other people together.
They brought back people fromthe dead that should have never
been killed off in the firstplace.
Everybody was obsessed with thelittle mini pack that Derek puts
(21:48):
together in season one.
One of the girls had epilepsyand they constantly made fun of
her.
And then he obviously put herthrough the werewolf machine,
and then all of a sudden she waslike super hot and evil.
Yeah, yeah.
And everybody really loved her.
They loved, God, I can'tremember his name now, but they
killed them all off.
And people were upset aboutthat.
(22:10):
So on AO3, they resurrectedthem, they created their own
packs, they changed things.
And but around all of that,steric was the key.
They were the big ship that hadeverybody held together.
And there were hundreds ofthousands of fanfics.
Between AO3, between Wattpad,between fanfic.net, there was so
many fics about them.
(22:30):
And ratings on the show startedto dip because nobody wanted to
watch the show because they hadfelt betrayed.
And if they had just queerbaited everybody, at this point
we're used to it.
And they probably would havestuck around.
And I want to say I watched tillseason five when Dylan O'Brien
got hurt on the set of the MazeRunner.
(22:51):
And he wasn't there for a wholeseason.
I watched almost to the bitterend, but I was what do you call
it?
Disheartened, I guess.
And it didn't matter anymorebecause it really became clear
that they just didn't give afuck about the people who were
making the show.
And it sucked because they hadsuch great lore.
(23:13):
They had, and when I was writingYA, I was writing all about like
Celtic mythology.
And Jeff Davis and I werebasically playing in the same
sandbox.
Banshees, werewolves.
We were writing about the sametypes of characters.
So I was obsessed with it atfirst.
But the more they talked shitabout the steric fandom, the
(23:34):
more people just stopped givinga shit about the show entirely,
which sucked because the lorewas still good.
They were still towards the end,just like every show, they were
phoning it in.
But they were trying.
SPEAKER_00 (23:45):
They were trying.
Well, they shot themselves inthe foot, right?
SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
Yeah.
And then Tyler Hecklin got therole of Superman.
So he started being written offthe show.
Dylan O'Brien was getting biggerand bigger because of the maze
runner.
He still kept coming back.
But then when he got into thatnear fatal accident where he got
sucked under the truck that wasfilming him during a stunt and
(24:09):
fractured pretty much every bonein his face, he had to be gone
for almost a year of doingreconstructive surgery.
Um, yeah.
And so they had to write him offthe show for a little while.
And then when he came back, hisface wasn't a hundred percent,
he was still swollen, he wasstill like, so they had him
(24:30):
coming in and out, and it just,I don't know, it just didn't
work.
And it just didn't work.
It makes me mad because it wassuch a good show, and I feel
like they've ruined it with justtheir inability to handle the
fact that people wanted a gayship that they themselves not
(24:54):
only hinted at, but even said,Oh, well, we might make it
happen.
We might make it happen.
SPEAKER_00 (24:58):
I wonder what changed.
Well, you said because he lookedolder.
SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
I that was one thing.
I also think probably just likethey shoved Colton Haynes back
in the closet, I think they wereprobably like, yeah, on screen
it would look great, but in reallife, Tyler Hecklin playing
Superman, Dylan O'Brien playingthis maze runner character, it
might ruin your future to play agay character, you know, now,
(25:24):
this early in your career.
Also, there's rumors that TylerHecklin is gay in real life, and
they may have been worried thathim playing a gay character
would that narrative a littleharder about him being gay in
real life.
Because there was always theseblind items, heavily implying
that he and his girlfriend atthe time, who was remember in
(25:47):
Pitch Perfect, the girl who'salways flirting with Anna
Kendricks, the main character.
Oh, what the hell is her name?
Britney Snow.
Her name's Britney Snow in reallife.
I've never watched PitchPerfect.
Oh, really?
Oh my gosh, that's crazy.
Uh but anyway, Britney Snow andTyler Heckland dated, I want to
say for a few years, andeverybody was like, they're not
(26:08):
really dating, they're beardingfor each other because she's the
lesbian and he's gay, and theydon't want anybody to know.
I don't know if that's true ornot.
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
People I'm just I'm gonna tell you, they say it
about everybody, the gay loresin particular.
SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
Yeah, well, I'm just saying, I wouldn't doubt if
Taylor Swift is bisexual, butyou can still like men too, you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (26:28):
But it's also none of my business, you know what I
mean?
SPEAKER_02 (26:30):
It's none of my but I think that that might have had
something to do with it.
Maybe just their management waslike, this could fuck up your
career if you do it this early.
Because Dylan O'Brien has playedgay characters now.
He's played gay characters, he'splayed trans characters, or not
trans, cross-dressingcharacters.
But anyway, he clear and I thinkhis sister is queer, so I don't
(26:53):
think that they had any problemmalice, right, you know, or
anything against gay charactersin any way.
I just think that somewherealong the way, somebody put the
kibosh on it.
And instead of just saying,Yeah, we would love to do it,
but unfortunately, that's justnot how we plotted the series,
blah, blah, blah.
(27:13):
There could have been a milliondifferent ways to handle it, but
instead, somehow they chose toturn on the fandom that helped
make them.
And it really just caused thewhole trajectory of the show to
just crash and burn.
Right.
And even when they came back andthey did the movie, they still
pushed Styles and Derektogether.
(27:35):
They still made it where theywere on screen a ton.
Even though Styles is now withLydia, even Lydia is making
jokes about how Styles and Derekare always together, blah, blah,
blah.
How she's basically implying howshe's like one of those girls
that just has to deal with thefact that her man has another.
SPEAKER_00 (27:57):
Yeah, but then they never give it to you.
So then it's kind of it makes iticky.
SPEAKER_02 (28:02):
And again, it's that same thing we talked about
before.
If you're going to do theunresolved sexual tension and
you have no intention of givingthem that payoff, don't do it.
Because I tell you right now, ifJeff Davis ever just showed up
with another show, I'd be like,no.
Like, I still watch CriminalMinds, and now all of a sudden,
(28:22):
Criminal Minds is gay as fuck.
Just so you know, there wasn't asingle gay to be found in the
original Criminal Minds, but inthe reboot of Criminal Minds,
canonically straight charactersare now gay.
And good.
Because you know what?
People in the middle of theirlives decide, I'm tired of
pretending I'm not attracted towomen.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Every day a lesbian is born.
That's right.
I haven't given up hope that I'mactually not straight.
SPEAKER_02 (28:52):
Listen, quite a dollar for every woman who sat
at home hoping that one daythey're just gonna look at
another woman and be like, ohno, I am actually a lesbian, or
I am bisexual.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Please.
I've tried it quite a few times.
And every time I was like, Iwish I liked this so much.
You so pretty.
SPEAKER_02 (29:15):
I like anything.
I don't really, I don't reallyhave a preference.
I learned that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:19):
I know whore.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
A celibate whore.
I know, right?
And the amount of sex I've had,I feel like I've really just
earned the right to retire.
Just ran out.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
There's like a finite amount of sex someone
should have.
Because I disagree.
I think you could be having alot of people.
SPEAKER_02 (29:37):
Because my numbers, and I guess my takeaway as far
as authors go is for the love ofGod, do not disappoint your
readers and don't queer bait.
We see this a lot in Tradpub,where if you are querying a
manuscript and you go to lookfor an agent, you see a ton of
(29:58):
agents that are like, we'reLooking for POC characters,
people of color, we're lookingfor BIPOC authors, we're looking
for queer characters, andsomehow they pick authors
writing queer characters who arestraight white women who in no
(30:19):
way have any queer history.
And you're just how is it ifyou're looking for diversity?
There's no diversity to befound.
And you get, and I know it's outthere because I have tons of
indie friends who are queer.
Indy is where India.
SPEAKER_00 (30:39):
Yeah.
Safic in particular is reallyhard to find in like a Barnes
and Noble traditionallypublished.
SPEAKER_02 (30:47):
Savic because it doesn't sell and it sucks.
But I don't, you know what itis?
It's because straight women readgay romance, but straight women
won't read lesbian romance.
(31:08):
And again, it goes back to alot.
I know a lot of gay men like tosay that women are fetishizing
them.
And I'm not saying that therearen't women out there,
especially of a certaindemographic, who do fetishize
gay men.
But a lot of women are readingMM romance because it allows
(31:30):
them to read a story that hasnothing to do with them.
They don't have to identify withany character.
They're just sitting back andwatching two people fall in love
without having to put themselvesin either character's shoes.
Which when you're readingstraight romance, unfortunately,
if you like dark romance, youare you basically have all kinds
(31:56):
of misogyny stuffed down yourthroat, literally in some cases.
SPEAKER_00 (32:01):
And they tell you to like it.
So it's he fucked you with thegun over the side of the boat
while the sharks were swarming,right?
No offense.
And if you're into that, I'm notyucking, you're yum.
But it's a little rapey, and youknow what, and that's fine.
Emphasizing about things anddoing them are different.
SPEAKER_02 (32:16):
Fine.
I don't care.
I'm not at all about censoringwhat people enjoy or write.
I don't care.
Write anything you want.
Absolutely.
However, me personally, I likewriting dark romance and I like
writing BDSM romance, but Idon't want to push a narrative
(32:39):
that a lot of these BDSMstraight romances push that
says, if you're a sub in thebedroom, you're a sub in every
aspect of your life.
And that's just not true.
Most people who are submissiveare actually very dominant
outside of the bedroom.
And that is why they look forsubmission in the bedroom
because they don't want to thinkanymore.
(33:00):
They don't want to makedecisions in the bedroom.
They have to make decisionseverywhere else.
They just want to turn theirbrains off.
And that never seems to be thecase in these books.
And if you've ever met actualDoms who know what they're doing
and are actually into thatlifestyle, these are normal
(33:21):
people.
Outside of the scene, they'rejust normal people.
They aren't misogynistic in anyway, shape, or form.
They're just your boyfriend.
They're just your Dom if you'renot even in a relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (33:33):
They are not their kinks, right?
So even if you're a furry, ifyou're a foot guy, like I know
we joke about the foot stuff,that's just what you're into.
I don't know if you have anyreal control over it, but your
kink isn't your personality.
SPEAKER_02 (33:45):
Somebody who was forced to study like human
sexuality when I was in nursingschool, you don't.
When you're between the ages of10 and 12, they have this thing
called, and it sounds so creepy,but it's called your love map.
Okay.
And whatever is happening whenyou hit that sort of puberty, it
imprints in your brain.
(34:06):
And so that is how peopledevelop not only not necessarily
just kinks, but preferences.
Yeah.
You know, some people likebigger women, some people like
smaller, some people like biggermen, some people like smaller.
And it can also warp into somepeople find feet sexually
appealing.
SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
It's something that's you stumble upon.
Somebody's like, want to trythis?
And you're like, eh, no, andthen you try it and you're like,
wow.
Well, it's like a meme more.
Yeah, it's that meme where it'slike me reading a new king.
You know, where it's like, yeah,I'm into it.
Also, to go back to reading malemale, it's also where as someone
who reads pretty traditionallyall the time, it's always I
(34:48):
gotta listen to at least ahundred to two hundred words of
how tiny she is.
How she's also gonna take overthe world, obviously.
Yeah, she's obviously the mostpowerful, she's just super
skinny, she's so tiny, she's sobeautiful, she's so this, she's
gotta pick between this guy andthat guy, and she's never gonna
pick the blonde one.
(35:08):
We already know what's going onthere.
She's gonna pick the guy who'slike kind of sarcastic to her,
but we're calling it darkromance.
I don't know.
But to your point, I think whereyou're just reading about two
men fall in love.
It isn't, and I think peopleoversexualize your books.
There is sex in your books, butpeople aren't always reading it
to fucking goon.
You know what I mean?
They're reading it becausethere's a story, it's eight
(35:29):
fucking books.
You think the whole thing isthey're all just banging all the
time?
They're banging, but they'redoing stuff.
You have to have a plot.
People really are patronizingwhen it comes to that.
They call it gay porn, it's notgay porn, and a lot of people
jokingly say that about mybooks.
SPEAKER_02 (35:45):
Melissa used to say that all the time, yeah.
Yeah, and it used to annoy theshit out of me because I don't
write gay porn, I write gayromance, right?
Gay romance, but because it'stwo men, we're calling it gay
porn, and it it people thinkthat excuses it in some way, or
that makes it okay to read gayromance, but it's mostly just
porn, which it to me is theexact opposite.
(36:06):
Like somebody told me that theywere just reading a gay romance
for the sex, I'd be like, that'screepy and weird, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Or if a woman likes uh a drag in school and people
are fucking it's smut, but like99.99, they only fuck at the
last 50 pages, and that's justdiminishing things that women
like, it's diminishing the LGBTQcommunity, it's just a way to
subscribe to purity culture as awhole.
(36:32):
Women shouldn't enjoy readingabout sex, certainly shouldn't
enjoy watching two men fall inlove.
Because why would you?
Because you're not involved, asif our minds can't process
something that doesn't involveus, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (36:45):
Enjoy something unless we're the center of it.
Which I mean some men can'tenjoy something unless it's
about them.
I don't know, I don't know, youknow, and I think that some men
think that women sexualize gayromance because I think that men
sexualize two women together.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, and I don't mean gay menbecause I'm that, but I think
(37:07):
straight men see two womentogether and they're fine with
it because they're like, oh no,two women together is hot.
SPEAKER_00 (37:14):
Yeah, because he thinks he could interrupt that.
They're I get it.
He thinks he could have that,you know what I mean?
Two women being in love and in acommitted relationship is not
real to them.
They can't conceptually oh who'sthe guy?
There is no guy.
SPEAKER_02 (37:28):
That's the point, babe.
To to process it in their brain.
SPEAKER_00 (37:33):
Not all straight guys, by the way.
Of course not.
We're not broad strokes.
SPEAKER_02 (37:39):
Yeah.
Whenever we're generalizing, Iwould like to think that the
guys who aren't like that, thetwo that are listening, like I
would like to think it's notyou, Robert.
Robert, we love you.
Yeah, it's not you guys.
We're not talking about you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:53):
It's a certain group, and we know who they are.
The Chads, the Brads, right?
What Taylor said to the Chads,the Brads, and the Dads.
Yep.
That's who we're talking about.
SPEAKER_02 (38:01):
Yeah.
And I got so tired of feelinggross when I read a romance
novel.
When, and again, I hate to sayit, but it's after Fifty Shades
showed up on the scene that itjust I don't know that it
started to feel misogynistic, orif it just shined such a big
(38:27):
spotlight on it by being so overthe top that it made me confront
the fact.
Remember the movie TheSecretary?
Okay, and here's the thing, Ilove the movie The Secretary.
SPEAKER_00 (38:43):
I liked it too.
Was it problematic?
SPEAKER_02 (38:46):
It was it's problematic in that he started a
BDS relationship with somebodywithout their consent and
without any kind of abuse her alittle bit.
SPEAKER_01 (39:03):
He used it to shift her from self-harm into a
slightly healthier pain,sexuality.
SPEAKER_00 (39:21):
Yeah, but then remember he made her sit at that
desk and kiss herself and stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (39:25):
But that wasn't really abuse.
That was more I'm so deep intothe BDSM culture.
It was I want to say like atest.
It was a way for her to prove,but also for her to be, look
what I can do.
I'm so good at being your subthat I will sit here until the
(39:49):
end of time.
SPEAKER_00 (39:50):
And then all her family comes in trying to
convince her to get up.
SPEAKER_02 (39:53):
Yeah, and I think he left because he always leaves,
and he was just, yeah, I neverfell in love with the others,
and I left, and I am in lovewith her, but I have to leave
because I'm the problem kind ofthing.
Yeah.
She was, I don't care thatyou're a problem, kind of.
I like your problems.
I like your problems.
Your problems and my problemswere they're both two deeply
(40:16):
fucked up people whose crazymatches each other.
And that's my whole brand.
SPEAKER_00 (40:23):
Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_02 (40:25):
Two deeply fucked up people who are toxic for anybody
else in the world whose crazymatches in a way that they're
toxic works for them, you know?
Because I don't think there'sany such thing as a perfect
relationship.
You can have somebody who'sperfect for you, but you can't
really have somebody who'sperfect.
They don't exist.
And if they did, they wouldannoy the fuck out of you.
(40:46):
Because you're not nobody is,nobody's perfect.
And if you somehow foundsomebody who behaves as if they
were, there's probably somethingdeeply, deeply wrong with them
that they're hiding.
Those are the people who one dayyou go into the freezer and
suddenly there's six heads inthere.
Like those people are neverreally they have a second
family, exactly.
There's always something, andyou find out at the will they
(41:09):
appear, the weirder they turnout to be.
So I like showing how toxicpeople fit together.
I don't know, because again, Ilike the toxicity in fiction, I
like dark romance, I don't likemisogyny, I don't like toxic
relationships in which they'remean to each other, they're too
(41:33):
possessive of each other in anegative, abusive way.
You can be toxic to everybodyelse, but you're not allowed to
be toxic to your partner.
SPEAKER_00 (41:42):
And so that's why I write I'm not into the I know a
lot of people and if you're intohim being like super like I get
the mob romances and stuffbecause I'm I'm a straight white
lady on book talk.
SPEAKER_02 (41:54):
Yeah, I don't like abusive possessiveness.
The if I can't have you, nobodywill kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (42:00):
Yeah, like I'll literally I'll kill you.
SPEAKER_02 (42:01):
Like literally you, yeah, I'll literally kill you.
And some of them are into it.
SPEAKER_00 (42:06):
Yeah, I'm more into the I'll kill the world, I'll
burn the world for you.
Yeah, that's more my jam a lamb.
SPEAKER_02 (42:14):
That's why I like writing the villains who are
like it's the fuck everybody butyou.
Yeah, yeah, but also they're nothurting women, they're not
hurting children, they're notout there hurting innocent
people because I need myviolence to have morals, and I
just tried to write superimmoral characters, and it just
(42:34):
doesn't work for me.
It just doesn't work for me.
I my brain instantly just goes,nope, nope, nope, nope, nope,
nope.
I can't do it.
SPEAKER_00 (42:40):
Well, because these are your characters, so like
they're there are people in yourbrain.
Yeah, like there are people inyour brain, they're just
existing little psychopathsbouncing around in your brain.
So you're like, my baby wouldn'tdo that.
Let me stop.
SPEAKER_02 (42:54):
And that's the funny thing is I'm writing the sequel
to um disciplinary action, whichwas my first Daddy Kink book
that was full BDSM.
And I decided to write thesecond book about the villain in
the first book.
So I had to make sure that hewas basically going to suffer
(43:15):
for what he did to my characterin the first book.
And you better, because you knowthey're gonna be waiting.
He's going to suffer, but the hebasically enters into a very I
wanted to take Fifty Shades ofGrey and do it my way.
So it's a logic puzzle to me.
It's like I have to make itwork, but I have to make it work
in a way that's not dark, butit's not icky.
SPEAKER_00 (43:38):
It's dark, but it's not icky, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (43:40):
Yeah, and it's fun for me to just keep towing the
line a little bit further andfurther.
Sorry, we got into a wholedifferent aspect.
SPEAKER_00 (43:47):
I think we stayed on topic more today than usual.
SPEAKER_02 (43:49):
I really think we do, but that's just because I'm
real heated about Twilight.
It all again, it like our shipof the week.
It's what could have been.
It's the same thing withCastell.
Your ship finally does becomecanon, and I'll say that there's
a show on air called 911, andthere's two characters in the
(44:10):
show 911, Eddie and Buck, Ithink they are.
And are you gonna say they'reboth firefighters?
Maybe one of them's a paramedic.
I'm not sure.
I don't watch the show, so ifI'm wrong, guys, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (44:20):
So that was right up your alley, so they're in the
eye.
SPEAKER_02 (44:22):
And everybody was, yeah, they're definitely into
each other.
They're definitely a ship, butthey should be canon.
And they were basically soanti-willing to make this
happen.
They created an entirely newspin-off called 911 Lone Star.
It's basically takes place inTexas, and Rob Lowe plays the
chief of the fire department,and he basically creates the
(44:44):
queerest fire department in allof Texas.
It's just BIPOC everywhere.
You've got his son who's gay,you have a trans firefighter,
you have a Muslim firefighter,his gay son is dating a police
officer who is also gay.
It was almost like they justover-corrected.
They were like, Oh, you wantgays?
(45:05):
Here, but no, you can't makethese guys because there's too
many Republican, you know, whitenationalists that love 911 that
we can't have we can't have thegays because they'll revolt.
Well, then the show gotcancelled and it got picked up
by a different network, and theywere like, Oh, you want gay?
(45:27):
We'll make them gay.
And so they made one of the twoof them gay, start dating a man,
not the other one that they shipwith, and everybody went, wait a
minute, what the fuck?
We said we wanted these twotogether, not that we just
(45:47):
wanted them gay.
But it seems like what they'redoing is they wanted to put him
in a relationship with a man sothat the other one in the ship
was like, Whoa, not only are yougay, but you're not gay for me.
What the fuck, man?
We're raising a child together,yeah.
(46:08):
And so I think they're justslowly getting there, you know,
they're trying to make it arealistic transition versus just
like bippity bobbity-boo, nowyou're both gay.
Yeah, you just catch each otherin the middle.
I'm only kind of watching itfrom the sidelines, so I don't
have all the details.
I watch a lot of shows viaTikTok clips, yeah.
But I can tell you that sincethey did start transitioning,
(46:30):
the ratings went through theroof, everybody's talking about
it.
I know because I heard about itand I don't watch the show.
So sometimes doing the thingthat your audience wants is
gonna save your show.
Again, look at the vampirediaries.
In she's canonically in thebooks with Stefan.
(46:50):
It didn't work in the show.
No, it didn't.
The chemistry between her andDamon was too good, and it would
not have been believable for herto look at Damon and have all of
this sexual tension and thenlook at Stefan, who she didn't
have any real chemistry with,and be like, No, I choose that
(47:12):
guy.
It just you would have had tohave been Stefan was just
hotter.
SPEAKER_00 (47:18):
Damon was just hotter, even in the books.
I was like, You're dumb.
Yeah, you're dumb.
I was 13, I was like, You'restupid.
SPEAKER_02 (47:25):
Listen, uh when Damon ends up with the fat
redhead, my teenage heart wassinging.
I'm a fat redhead, I could havehad Damon.
This is me, she's writing aboutme.
I could have had him, buthonestly, and it's interesting
because again, he ends up withBonnie in the books, but you
(47:46):
could see the chemistry betweenhim and Bonnie in the show, too.
But when you saw them asfriends, you went, yeah, that
still makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (47:55):
Yeah, like no, but then they were like made it
happen.
You know what they she can'thave, though, is a happy ending
because we're gonna have we'regonna go ahead and kill him.
SPEAKER_02 (48:03):
Listen, I am telling you, and I might get in trouble
for saying this, but it seemsvery clear that Julie Pleck had
it out for Catgram.
SPEAKER_00 (48:14):
I think that's pretty canon.
I think everybody knows I thinkshe said it out loud.
I think multiple cast membershave said that out loud.
SPEAKER_02 (48:21):
I think that she just, I don't know what it was.
Now, I know with the guy whoplays Alaric, it's just that
he's a big fucking racist Trumpsupporter.
Yeah, but he looks like one.
That's yeah, I don't know ifthat's the same thing with Julie
Pluck, uh, or if there was someother beef we don't know about.
SPEAKER_00 (48:38):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (48:39):
They seem determined to just fuck over Cat Graham,
which is crazy to me becauseshe's beautiful, she's an
excellent actress, she can singlike fucking crazy.
She speaks like five fuckinglanguages.
They could have done a milliondifferent things with her
character.
Yep.
But instead, they killed Enzo.
God damn it, they killed Enzo.
(48:59):
I loved him so much.
SPEAKER_00 (49:01):
It was I love that's why I'm more I at the end of the
day, I was more of an originalsfan than even the vampire
diaries because the originals,oh, that is such a sexy show.
SPEAKER_02 (49:11):
And I think it's because it's just the vampires
are just hotter, they're justlike and they they had less
morality, you know what I mean?
Like you never knew what theywere gonna do.
They tried to keep the morals inthe vampire diaries because
that's one, it was canon in thebooks, but also like even when
Damon was doing somethingcompletely fucking off the wall,
(49:33):
just balls out crazy.
No, you still found a way tojustify it in your head.
You can't justify the shit thatthe originals did.
Plus, I just love New Orleans,so like was just fucking insane.
SPEAKER_00 (49:50):
He was freaking hot, Caroline.
You're an idiot, Caroline.
You're I would have folded.
He wouldn't even how easy itwould have been, he wouldn't
have even wanted it.
He'd have been like, hello, andI said, bite me.
SPEAKER_03 (50:02):
Just fall over with her legs in the air.
SPEAKER_00 (50:04):
Whatever you want, it's yours forever, 100,000
years.
SPEAKER_02 (50:09):
That guy in my book Rogue, like I used him as inspo
for the brother.
That's the just the literalworst.
And people were so mad at me forusing him as the villain
villain.
I was like, Did you see Klaus'scharacter?
SPEAKER_00 (50:23):
I didn't care.
And you know when he did theright thing when the other
vampires were trying to takeover New Orleans and they got
out of hands.
Okay, Daddy Klaus had to handlethat.
And what was it?
What's his brother's name?
Because he could get it too.
What's his brother's name?
No, okay, Elijah.
SPEAKER_02 (50:35):
Oh, that's mine.
That's mine.
Klaus, yes, I get it.
I get the appeal, but Elijahthat cop was such a gentleman
until he wasn't.
That man would murder eightpeople in a suit, in a suit, and
just show up at your front doorand find a way to get in.
SPEAKER_00 (50:55):
He was that quiet, he could get it too.
I mean, it's a why chooseadventure at this point.
Even the sister, yeah.
Oh, sister.
Poor Rebecca.
SPEAKER_02 (51:05):
They were so.
Mick had such a crush on herbecause she was in uh HTO.
So was the girl who playedHaley.
The girl who played Haley andthe girl who played Rebecca both
played in HTOO.
That's funny.
SPEAKER_00 (51:15):
I remember she loved that show, yeah.
I remember Kaylee loved thatshow too.
SPEAKER_02 (51:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:19):
Um ended up being the girls.
SPEAKER_02 (51:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:23):
But Rebecca, poor.
Is it are we have wait?
Let's do the vampire.
SPEAKER_02 (51:27):
Save this for the vampire.
SPEAKER_00 (51:28):
We already just this is a two for one.
This is longer than we usuallygo to.
SPEAKER_02 (51:31):
This is basically three part.
The 20, like there's like, Idon't know, 20 minutes of it is
the sound check on Patreon.
But but yeah, no, we'll pickthis up next week and we'll do
the vampire directory.
SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
And we have to capture Taylor and what is going
on in my personal fandom rightnow.
unknown (51:49):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (51:50):
Well, do you want to do Taylor Swift next week or do
you want to do the VampireSwift?
Okay, we'll do Taylor Swift.
They're already coming backaround.
They're already coming backaround on Life of a Showgirl.
You stupid newbie bitches.
SPEAKER_02 (52:01):
Well, that's what happens.
They had they had to like theyimmediate backlash, and then a
bunch of people were like, Thisisn't fucking about you.
And then they realized that ifthey kept talking shit, they
were gonna suddenly look likethe assholes instead of calling
her an asshole.
But we're gonna get into thatnext week.
Oh, I know all the lore, baby.
And I'm going to do someresearch and listen to the new
(52:22):
album so I at least have anappeal.
SPEAKER_00 (52:25):
Listen to listen to the album, but don't do any
research.
Because I what do I know aboutKaka Doo doo nothing when you're
talking about it?
SPEAKER_02 (52:30):
No, no, I meant just by research, I meant I'm gonna
listen to the album.
That's about all I have to do.
SPEAKER_00 (52:34):
Watch some reactions from your favorite reactors.
SPEAKER_02 (52:37):
Oh no, I can because I have Knox Hill's Patreon and
he did the entire album, so I'llwatch with him.
SPEAKER_00 (52:43):
Elizabeth Taylor is one of my favorites.
SPEAKER_02 (52:46):
Wait, Elizabeth Taylor, the actress?
Isn't she dead?
SPEAKER_00 (52:49):
Uh The Fate of Ophelia, Opalite, Top Three.
I don't love Cancelled.
It's not, it's a no-skip albumfor me.
All of them are.
But Cancelled is not necessarilymy favorite.
Uh oh, we'll get into it.
unknown (53:04):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (53:04):
All right, we'll get into it next week.
Actually, I think personally,what I think your favorite song
is gonna be is actuallyromantic.
That's what I think is gonna beyour favorite song.
We'll see.
SPEAKER_02 (53:13):
Okay, okay, we'll see.
Anyway, if you liked thisdiatribe, please rate with you,
subscribe, download.
Downloads really help us.
A lot of you showed up last weekfor episode four and brought
those numbers.
So thank you.
Most people don't get yeah, mostpeople don't get those numbers
in a month.
We got them in a week, so weappreciate you.
SPEAKER_00 (53:34):
We love we love that you listen to our ramblings.
SPEAKER_02 (53:37):
Yes.
You want more breakdowns if youwant literally my emotional
breakdown.
SPEAKER_00 (53:43):
I'll can FaceTime you guys personally if you want.
I usually have my breakdownaround 5:30 when the kids like
are really nuts and I'm tryingto and I'm touched out.
So no extra charge.
I actually could use thesupport.
SPEAKER_02 (53:55):
I can just I can just have her turn the cameras
on at five.
And if you want those breakdownson the Google Home levels, and
it's a literal breakdown.
SPEAKER_00 (54:05):
It's just yeah, or the gentle parenting is left and
uh things start gettingquestionable.
SPEAKER_02 (54:10):
At the$10 tier, we do have all of the tech stuff
that baby authors probably wantanswered, but don't know even
what to look for.
And then at the$25 level, wehave my my breakdowns.
No, my little obsession scrolls,they're like nine pages.
They give you all kinds of tipsand tricks and just fandom
(54:33):
things you can do in your ownbooks to help build your own
fandoms.
They're about nine pages.
There's usually worksheetsinvolved.
SPEAKER_00 (54:41):
So if that's your thing, that tickles your pickle.
SPEAKER_02 (54:45):
Yeah, exactly.
That's the$25 tier.
Tech is the$10 tier, and thenthe$5 tier is all of this
without the ads, without thecuts, with all of our ums,
likes, and uhs.
SPEAKER_00 (54:57):
Oh, yeah, that's fun, you guys.
That's a benefit.
Yeah, I'm not gonna lie.
SPEAKER_02 (55:02):
I do go through, but I do take some of the ums and
likes out because I can't handleit.
SPEAKER_01 (55:09):
You're alone.
SPEAKER_02 (55:19):
And then I wonder if somebody's editing it's on the
cutting room floor, babe, forsure.
All right, guys, we will talk toyou next week.
Bye.
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