October 29, 2025 • 35 mins
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
Hi, everybody.
Welcome to episode seven of theFeral Phantoms Podcast.
Seven.
James, male male romance author.
Busy, busy person.
SPEAKER_01 (00:24):
Pretty much.
So I'm a little out of it.
And I am here with Shannon.
It's me.
I have one client.
She's exclusive.
SPEAKER_00 (00:36):
She likes long walks on the beach.
In your paladas, getting lost inthe rain.
The people at Dunkin' Donutsknow me by name.
I'm so mad.
I ordered an extra large.
That's how much caffeine I waslooking for.
And it sucked.
It's a gamble.
It's the beauty of Duncan.
Is it gonna be perfect?
No.
No, no.
Depends on who's working thatday.
Yeah.
(00:57):
And how much they're in a goodmood.
Okay, so let's talk about TaylorSwift.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Hey, swizzle.
SPEAKER_00 (01:09):
I have notes.
I have so many notes.
But yeah, so I did a freshlisten this morning because I
wanted to get my listen opinionbecause after I hear a song over
and over again, it kind ofbecomes an earworm and you just
like it because it's popular onTikTok or like whatever.
So you have to see the edits.
unknown (01:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:29):
Yeah.
It's like it gets in your head,and all of a sudden you're like,
do I like this song or do I justhear it every six seconds?
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
This one is like one of the ones that you kind of
have to marinate with.
And know that, yes, TorturedPoets Department was poetry.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
Okay, so I actually liked the album.
Like it feels almostcontroversial to say that I
liked it.
But okay, granted, there aresome songs that I was just like,
I will never listen to this oneagain.
Pretty much.
The only two no-skip albums Ihave for Taylor Swift are 1989
and Red.
And that was back in her oldschool days when she delivered
(02:07):
in a very poppy way, but likewhen you really listened and
read the lyrics, you were like,shit, that's deep.
And okay, so here's my here's mytake on before and then I'll let
you have your show.
Show.
Okay, my favorite song is Lifeof a Showgirl.
It's so good.
It's so good.
(02:27):
The second favorite isdefinitely The Fate of Ophelia.
And it's catchy.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
100 on the lid.
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
Yes, it's and it's not even like a lyrics thing.
It's just one of those thingswhere I could just see myself
listening to this on repeat.
You know, we're happy.
SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
It doesn't have to be that deep.
unknown (02:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Ancel is interesting.
How about Lee Romantic?
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
That's my next favorite.
Actually, Romantic.
And it gives me a very highschool enemies.
It's giving 90s.
I could almost lay a teenagedirtbag over this.
100%.
Girl.
How do we feel about it?
(03:16):
I like when she storytells, youknow what I mean?
Because a lot of her songs are,I don't know, about her life,
but when she gets into that realdeep storytelling mode, that's
when I dig her the most.
Anyone called me, honey.
Yeah, exactly.
Ruin the Friendship is verydepressing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Messages.
Fucking friends.
Yeah.
Apparently, that's the hot take.
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
Um Elizabeth Taylor.
I love Elizabeth Taylor.
It's so good.
I think Elizabeth Taylor is oneof those songs that I need
another listen kicks in for me.
Sounds like that.
Like a lot of songs I need tolike kind of like really feel
them.
Like I need to look at thelyrics.
I need to lock in.
But things like Life of aShowgirl, Canceled, The Fate of
(04:05):
Aphelia, like those are onesthat like you hear the first
time and you like the music andyou're just like, okay, this is.
People hate canceled.
Because and I know why they hatecanceled.
Because it's verytongue-in-cheek.
It's very her being like, youknow, everybody gets canceled
for everything.
I'm being canceled all the timebecause getting canceled in the
author world happens uh probabpretty much three times a day.
SPEAKER_01 (04:29):
Um, I think this her fans, all these songs, there's
theories.
So actually romantic, they thinkis about Olivia Rodrigo.
I don't know if you know abouther.
Olivia Rodrigo used to open forher, and then they had some kind
of out.
I don't know what happened.
Olivia Rodrigo has a photo shootof holding a severed hand that
(04:52):
had a bunch of friendshipbracelets on.
She said performing for TaylorSwift fans felt like she was
performing for a bunch ofchildren.
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Rodrigo has beef with Sabrina Carpenter too,
doesn't she?
Because Sabrina Carpenter wasthe next.
So I think that SabrinaCarpenter and her dated the same
guy, and Olivia Rodrigo wrotethat whole fucking album that
made her famous over SabrinaCarpenter.
Maybe that's why Tate picked hernext.
That's why when you said that, Iwas like, wait a year you're so
(05:20):
messy.
See, Sabrina Carpenter andOlivia Rodrigo are pop stars
involved in the public feud in2021 after Rodrigo's song
Driver's License was speculatedto be about Carpenter and their
mutual ex Joshua Bassett, whoguess what?
Nobody remembers anymore.
Who?
But you know who they do?
Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo,Sabrina Carpenter.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
Well, that's who they think romantic is about.
SPEAKER_00 (05:44):
Yeah, it makes sense, especially now that I see
that's you know, with Sabrinabeing on Life of a Showgirl.
SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
It's yeah, no, it's that's how she keeps everybody
hooked.
Because we know when the nextalbum comes out, we get little
pieces of her opinion oneverything we've been reading.
Because she doesn't say shit,but she'll be like, hey, am I?
SPEAKER_00 (06:03):
It's like a wink, no.
And that's something likeauthors need to really
understand.
It's not just bonding with yourfans, it's they're in on the
joke.
Like nobody else is, and anybodywho's not in the circle doesn't
get it, but those who are in thecircle are like, whatever,
because we get it and you don't,kind of thing.
Yes, and I think that's part ofthe reason why a lot of couples
(06:27):
in like Asian BL and in justlike BL in general never come
out, but they never deny eitherbecause it keeps people hooked.
Once you know that they are acouple or they're not a couple,
then it just doesn't, it's notas interesting.
But if you're watchingeverything they do and you're
trying to decode every littlehidden meaning, it just gives
(06:50):
you that dopamine hit that youwant.
Because you could talk about itto people.
You're like, oh, are they?
Aren't they?
Did you see this?
Yeah, yeah.
And so that's part of what Iloved about like about Taylor
Swift's marketing is that shedoes so many things that they've
mastered in Asia too, but younever see other artists do here.
(07:11):
It's interesting that TaylorSwift gets a pass when a lot of
other artists don't, when theydo try to be a little bit
different.
SPEAKER_01 (07:21):
I think it's because she's unapologetic.
Like with this album, she'slike, if you don't like it, I'm
not the art police.
SPEAKER_00 (07:25):
Well, that's the whole point of like canceled, is
like she's basically justsaying, like, I'm never going to
be a hundred percent right.
Like, I'm never going to do theright thing 100% because I'm a
human being and everything.
Like, people fuck up, you know?
But nowadays, you're if you're acelebrity, you're never allowed
to fuck up.
You're not allowed to be toorich, you're not allowed to be
too loud, you're not allowed tohave an opinion that somebody
(07:48):
might consider controversial.
SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
More often, everyone's supporting a
billionaire somewhere.
They're like, I can't supportTaylor Swift, even though she
literally for fun scrollsGoFundMe, like it's social
media, and just donates topeople often.
She gives tons of money to heremployees.
Everybody who's worked with her,like her dancers, she has the
same bass guy from debut.
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
Put it this way: like, Mark Cuban is a but nobody
he nobody talks shit about MarkCuban because he donates money,
he's a Democrat, he does all thesame things Taylor Swift does.
But somehow Taylor Swift is theelitist billionaire, like trying
to be the commoner.
But Mark Cuban gets a pass.
And he buys the differenceexactly.
SPEAKER_01 (08:31):
She's a woman, she did make her own money, and then
everyone saying that this isconservative dog whistling in
this album does not know thatshe publicly came out against
Donald Trump and got deaththreats up the ass.
Like, she can barely go tofootball games.
Now, when she goes to thefootball game, she has to have
like a bulletproof thing.
So, what do you want her to do?
(08:52):
Like, she has stalkers sneakingin her windows.
You're not gonna catch medefending billionaires this
hard.
So don't make me do it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
And then Elizabeth Taylor was good.
Father figure makes me laughbecause it's so mafia romance
coded.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
Yeah, you'll be sleeping with the fishes before
you know you drown in whoseportraits on the mantle of an MM
romance.
Do you know what it's about?
I don't sold her masters, so shedidn't know.
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
This is about the masters thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
And then so she is him, so she's him in the song.
Like he, you know, it's notScooterbron, it's the original
guy who sold it to Scooterbron.
About he does shady shit likeanyway.
He said he so in the song, he'sshe's him, like, you know, I'm
I'm gonna take care of you,da-da-da-da.
(09:43):
And then in the next course, inthe next course, she's her, and
she's like, ah, turns out mydick is bigger.
So she's talking about shit thathappened to her, and people just
aren't they're not getting it,they're it's not clicking with
them.
So it's a little corny, butshe's always been a little
corny.
SPEAKER_00 (09:59):
Like, well, yeah, I mean, there's nothing to me,
there's nothing wrong with beingcorny.
Uh, I will say, Eldest daughteris giving me Elena Bellaswan
feels because I'm a soft girl.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
I don't like it when she does that.
That some people are saying awhite woman came out on TikTok
and said when she said she's nota savage or a bad bitch, she's
actually being racist againstblack women.
And then the black woman cameout and said, interesting.
Tell me why when we said whenshe said the word is savage and
bad bitch, why is thatautomatically take you to black?
Tell us.
(10:31):
So she's always said that uh shewears short skirts, I wear
t-shirts.
She's always been afraid of acool bitch, she knows she's not
cool.
That's the she gets it.
Just like I'm not cool, I'm notsexy.
SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
But I think that is where a lot of people are like
eye-rolling because it's likeshe is cool, she is hot, she's
not because she has a lot ofnerdy interests and she's not
afraid to talk about them.
SPEAKER_01 (10:58):
Yeah, and I think she doesn't have a big fat juicy
ass.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
Let's talk about wood.
Not my favorite.
I would have to say it's thesecond to last favorite next to
that wish list song.
SPEAKER_01 (11:12):
Little wish list.
It was weirdly never dreamt of abasketball hoop.
SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
No, I think it's because it's kind of giving
careful what you wish for.
You know, it's oh, you can be abillionaire if you want to.
I just want a little whitepicket fence and a nice yard and
having kids with you.
That's really easy to say whenyou're a billionaire.
Easy to be like, oh, I don'tcare about it.
I just want kids.
(11:39):
And it's like, yeah, because youdid the ambitious part.
SPEAKER_01 (11:42):
You're fucking rich now.
Even if you just had TravisKelsey money, that's still I'll
never have a third of that in myentire life.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
You would still be a rich bitch.
Good for you.
And this is the thing.
It's like, what is too rich?
We're all supposed to beambitious, we're all supposed to
want everything, we're allsupposed to like be able to have
it all.
Like, yo, you can be everybodywants you to have that.
Where's the cutoff where you gofrom being rich to being so rich
that now you're a twat?
(12:16):
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
It's once you start surpassing Well you're doing it
too much, you're successing toomuch, you're dropping too many
albums when other people'sfavorites are dropping albums,
or you know what it is, and it'seasy to hate people that are
just continue to break recordsafter record after record after
record.
People saying they hate thealbum, but checks your
(12:39):
scoreboard, they're fuckinglistening to it, they're
knocking on wood.
And when I heard that song forthe first time, I was giggling,
kicking my feet.
Listen, I don't know if you knowwho she's been dating her whole
life, but it's these twink assdeep ass flick boys.
SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
There's songs in this album that she wrote just
for her.
Yes, you know what I mean?
She wrote songs that were justfor her, and I get it.
I mean, when you're in love, youwant to fucking brag about it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
Never been dicked down like this before.
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
There are many hard to see mad right now, just
punching the air.
SPEAKER_01 (13:14):
There are skinny little twinks, and I just know.
I just know.
She also dated really deep.
She did like the whole like deepmusician guy.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Yeah, she dated Maddie Healy, which he talked
about himself in the thirdperson the entire interview.
Like, what the fuck is that?
And also, yes, she was reallyyoung, and he was not.
SPEAKER_01 (13:34):
And fairness too, I think she dated uh Jonah.
Was it a Jonas?
She did date a Jonas brother.
And she was like 20 orsomething, and he was like, I
think 17, 18.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Yeah, I'm actually kind of like thrown by the the
amount of people over the last20 years who even women, when
you're like looking at the agedifference in some of these
relationships in Hollywood,you're just like nobody flagged
(14:05):
that?
No 2000s things get a littlemurky.
SPEAKER_01 (14:08):
I never did it myself.
SPEAKER_00 (14:08):
Yeah, not that was a little shady.
SPEAKER_01 (14:10):
I think the only time I ever like dated somebody
younger than me, I didn't evenknow their age until afterwards,
and there was only a two-yearage difference between us, but I
made a note specifically about aquote that I saw that I thought
was relevant to everyone was madabout all the variants, right?
(14:32):
So Yeah, that's one of thethings I wanted to talk about.
You start, and I saw oh wait, Ithink I found it.
Hang on.
Damn it.
It was something like variantsdon't create a demand, they feed
the demand.
So she's creating variantsbecause there is already a
market for it.
So, like in like for you, youcan create 20 different variants
(14:55):
for your books because there's ademand for it.
People aren't gonna get mad atyou because you're not Taylor
Swift, they're just gonna behappy that they have different
choices.
But I thought that was a goodquestion.
No, they get don't get don't getdon't get a choice.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Some people do get mad.
But it's like one of thosethings where you know I tell
people they're not Pokemon, Ihave to catch them all to you
and let the other ones go.
No, it's just marketing.
It one, it's just marketing, buttwo, I only have a limited
supply of things that I workwith.
I only have 30 books that I'vewritten.
I've only been doing this foryears, like at least in the MM
(15:29):
space.
No, like there's a cat voice.
Oh no, poor Lobo.
Are you scared?
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
That's enough.
Well, the cat just beat the shitup for no reason.
SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
Yeah, I'm the editor.
Larians.
Well, I just launched my artisteditions yesterday.
SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
And they're so pretty.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
Shout out to T-Reader.
Oh my gosh, I love her so much.
She sends me memes all the timeabout K-pop demon hunters.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
I said, Talisha, I'm in the shop.
What are we doing?
She goes, Ah, I got it.
I said, How many do you have?
She's one of the people thatbought a mystery swag bag.
And I messaged her and I said,Talisha, you have it all.
There's nothing in this bag thatyou don't have.
(16:15):
She bought two.
I said, Talisha, what are wedoing, babe?
We just got money to burn.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
She's in the UK.
I think some people do.
I think some people think thatlike I'm their favorite charity.
They just like my books and theywant me.
SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
She bought two mystery bags and then she's
like, Can I do a giveaway?
I have all this stuff.
I said, I know, bitch.
I know.
I told you you didn't.
She's like, but yeah, just incase.
I'm telling you, there is nojust in case.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
Well, I will tell you that we're making these
character cards, this artistthat I'm working with, and
they're just gonna be cards thatwe throw randomly into the box
when you ship something.
SPEAKER_01 (16:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
So like people can collect them, but they won't
necessarily know what they'regonna get.
SPEAKER_01 (16:58):
Oh, they are Pokemon cards.
You said you promise no Pokemoncards.
Lies! Lies.
Everybody rewind a minute and 30seconds back, which goes,
they're not Pokemon cards.
SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
You don't have to collect them all.
And you know how I know this?
Because I am looking at my shelfof tiny tan toys from fucking
McDonald's.
And you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01 (17:19):
It's crazy because we were doing them for Presley,
my sister-in-law.
SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
Yeah, no, she got them all.
In Asia, you just walk up to thething and you push the button
and you tell them which one youwant.
Here, they're like, whatever,bitch, just take your toy and
go.
I don't care if you've gotseven.
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Come back tomorrow for another happy meal.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Meanwhile, in Asia, they're like, How about we just
give you the toy you want andyou go walk somewhere?
Eat.
Go eat your vegetables.
Well, actually, McDonald's isn'tnearly as unhealthy in Asia as
it is here.
Yeah, you can get vegetableshere.
Yeah, exactly.
What are they talking about?
Yeah, but no, like, I mean youknow me.
(17:56):
I'm a huge stray kids fan.
I get every photo card, all ofthem, and I never know what I'm
gonna get.
And if I was really dedicated,like some of these people are, I
would trade them with otherpeople.
And people do that, they tradethem to get the full set of
whatever they're missing.
And yeah, you know, until peoplesell random shit in there.
SPEAKER_01 (18:17):
But I mean or complain that they already had
it.
Yeah, I couldn't have been moreclear that this was leftover
stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
Most people were happy.
We had a few complainers thatwere like just could not wait to
run to the reviews to be like,like, we told you.
They're like, how dare you giveme what I paid for?
Like, I don't know what theywanted.
But most people were happy witheverything.
Yeah.
I mean, I thought there wasgonna be kickback about the
(18:44):
price of the artist editionsbecause they're so expensive.
I mean, part of it is going tocharity, so like, but I I mean,
we sold 30 just yesterday.
Like, and luckily you don't haveto fulfill any of those.
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
Well, I have to request the fulfillment.
Okay.
I wish you were the oneindividually paying for them.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
I'd be poor.
Yeah, I think that that's whatTaylor does really well.
Also, when she was cancelledwith that whole with can't yeah,
and she really got cancelled thefuck boots down.
And she did exactly what I woulddo.
She disappeared, she took sometime, she reinvented herself a
(19:34):
little bit, she came back andshe owned it in a way Reputation
is my favorite album.
What catapulted her from likeA-less celebrity to like God
tier, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (19:47):
Because I I'm just curious who on Kanye's team
leaked the other part of thatphone call that actually cleared
her, where she did say, I don'treally know how I feel about
make that bitch famous.
I don't really like that line,or whatever she said.
And they cut that part out ofthe phone call.
(20:08):
And then I don't to this day,everyone says it was Chris
Jenner.
They think she's this like asecret Swifty.
I don't think she did that toher own daughter.
She sold her own daughter sextape.
True.
So I still to this day wonderwho leaked that.
But when she came back, the trueSwifties were like, I don't give
a fuck.
I wasn't a Swifty back then, Iwas doing crazy shit.
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
I appreciate when you part of me wonders if it was
all just a publicity stunt,because I know so many people
like on the inside.
Like, I have a friend who worksfor a A-list celebrity, and so
much of it is manufactured, somuch of the stuff, like of
(20:52):
people dating is manufactured,so much of the drama is
manufactured.
There are A-list celebrities whocall paparazzi to tell them
they'll be someplace, just sothey could be like, stop taking
my picture.
But I mean, like, of course, andit's just so it have all been an
elaborate, like, publicitystunt.
Yeah.
And if it was, good on all ofthem.
(21:14):
I don't think so.
I think she has some emotion.
I don't have any skin in thegame.
I guess.
But I remember when it happened,there was people who were like,
oh, when it came when her sideof the story came out and it was
proven, then everybody was like,hmm.
It's weird that somehow she gota hold of the other side of the
phone call.
How long has she been sitting onthat?
(21:34):
You know, like, was it allplanned because she did have
that other side of the phonecall?
Or did somebody defect somebodyelse?
Somebody else leaked it.
It wasn't well, it might havebeen Taylor Swift, we don't
know, but yeah.
But honestly, it could have beenanything.
It could have been Taylor'slawyers going to people being
like, Hey, if you can prove thisis, you know, there's something,
you know, if you could prove ourside, you know, and they leaked
(21:56):
it that way.
Just put in a uh Taylor Swifttook my video off of YouTube.
Like, no, she didn't.
Taylor Swift has no idea thatyou used her song in a wedding
video.
She doesn't.
YouTube.
It's why Ren, the music artist,is so famous.
Because you, when you're signingup, you have to basically say
whether people have the rightsto use your whole song, your
(22:19):
whole video when they'rereacting to your stuff.
And that's why you'll see a lotof reactors pause and like talk
and then start the song againand then pause because you have
to have these breaks.
Ren was like, I don't care.
He's like, if you're gonna talkabout my music, have my video,
like yeah, watch the wholething, it's totally worth it.
And he skyrocketed because ofthat.
(22:41):
I will tell anybody who wants tobe a YouTuber, Stray Kids and
Ren, if you talk nicely aboutthose two fandoms, they will
come running.
They will shoot your YouTubechannel to the stratosphere in
very small measure.
They call them renegades, likethe Ren fans, they call them
renegades.
Like, they love to hear peoplefind Ren because he is so like
(23:06):
different.
Like his music is everywhere, heraps, he's sings, he plays
guitar, he does like all kindsof stuff.
And I think that that's why likewhen people are like, Oh, they
she copyright striked me.
I'm like, no, she didn't.
She has no idea that you usedher song in a video.
(23:27):
She's not Taylor Swift, amonumental corporation who has
hundreds of employees that shehas to keep going easily.
SPEAKER_01 (23:36):
She could for the rest of their lives without
doing another thing.
The exact same albums, well,with vault tracks, and we still
want the reputation vaulttracks.
I don't care if you don'tre-record the album, that's
fine.
You own it now, that's great.
Release the vault tracks, bitch.
Okay, I know you're gettingdicked down, you're busy.
Go ahead, release that.
That they would outsell theoriginal, you know what I mean?
(23:56):
And the her fans would literallynot listen to anything that
wasn't Taylor's version.
And Taylor's version is such athing with the Swifties that
just so interesting.
And she's like, Yeah, who wouldthink, like, who would do that?
You know, like who, and then shedid it.
It's revolutionary to the musicindustry, and new artists are
(24:17):
paying attention to masters andowning your own art.
And she just got her master'sback, and that's her life's
work.
Uh, it would be like if you, Iguess if you're traditionally
published or something, owningyour own book, owning your own
story, like selling that away.
SPEAKER_00 (24:34):
The person who wrote the vampire diaries, Smith, she
she lost the rights to write herown characters.
She had to write fan fictionabout characters she created in
a shared world concept on Amazonjust to keep writing her own
characters because something inthat contract yeeted control of
(24:55):
her own characters.
And that is why I pay money toan entertainment lawyer, and I
we sat on that Japan contractfor over a year of negotiations
because there was just certainthings that they would not like
concede to until we just gotdown to like the you know, you
either yes or no kind of thing.
(25:17):
And so many people don't knowuntil it happens to you, like
the whole masters thing thatpeople getting discovered.
I don't want to be a bother.
I don't want like you know, I'mjust gonna go.
Exactly.
You know, whoever you're workingwith saw your talent, they saw
whatever, and they were like, Ohyeah, this kid's got something.
(25:40):
It's a business to these people,it always will be, and they
don't give a fuck.
And that is like that hustleculture where it's just like if
you want to make money, youcan't be empathetic, you can't
be nice, you have to becutthroat.
I think we're getting away fromthat in some aspects, but I
don't think that will everhappen in the entertainment
industry.
I don't think they'll ever getaway from that entirely.
SPEAKER_01 (26:03):
Well, I think it was what she did, it's definitely
made people pay more attentionto their intellectual property,
especially creative types likeyourself, people in music, your
intellectual property, even ifyou're new to it, you know,
don't let people take advantageof you.
SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
Well, and that's the thing, you don't know until you
know.
When I wrote Children Shouldn'tPlay with Dead Things, I thought
I had researched everythingthere was to know about indie
authors.
And then, like a week after Ipublished, I was like, I don't
know what the fuck I'm doing.
There's so many new authors whodon't know even the basic stuff,
and there's no trad pub likethat's gonna do it all for them.
(26:41):
Like you, when you become anindie author, you become your
own business owner.
I'm lucky because now I'm at apoint where I have, you know,
you and Molly and people that Ican kind of like spread out some
of the responsibility.
SPEAKER_01 (26:55):
Well, then there's so many people out there with
services like Breathless Lit andother people.
You could easily find somebodyin author services that can
guide you, put you to the rightprinter.
Like they just know the stuff.
They're like, Well, there's thisprinter out of here, and there's
this printer, and they can justguide you cost money.
SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
Which that's where like the whole paying for an
editor versus just publishingyour book without an editor,
don't you?
Readers hate mistakes in books,pay an editor, but like a lot of
authors who don't have the moneyare like, oh, it's elitist to
say that my book is bad becauseI don't have an editor.
It's your call.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
If you want to put out a bookthat people may get thrown out
(27:36):
of the story by multiple errors,then my brain automatically
corrects.
And that's a lot of people won'tnotice.
It's like a lot of people usingthe software to translate books
or using Google to translatetheir books.
A lot of German readers, they'rewilling to overlook that because
they just want the story, youknow.
But a lot of them aren't, youknow.
(27:57):
So it's just hit or miss.
And it's just what you'rewilling to.
Me, I'm a Virgo, I'm aperfectionist.
I can't stand the idea ofsomebody looking at my books and
finding a mistake.
It happens all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
One time we had a cover mistake, we misspelled
psycho.
Remember that?
SPEAKER_00 (28:10):
Yeah, we misspelled on the cover of books that we
had to order in advance.
It would suck.
Special editions.
SPEAKER_01 (28:15):
Yeah, special editions.
Yeah, that was uh nightmarefuel.
Yeah, after I had shipped out250 boxes, and let me tell you,
these were a set of eight.
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
Yeah.
With merchants, definitely notone of our boxes.
SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
Nightmares.
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
If I ever boxes were showing up, responsible for
she's gonna quit.
SPEAKER_01 (28:36):
Oh my gosh.
It was and then Psycho wasmisspelled, and the email
started rolling in.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
I have a whole character swap in my story.
Like in Moonstruck, somewherealong the way, I in one
paragraph switched twocharacters, Nico and Levi.
Like I switched their names,which happens all the time.
Like it happens all the time.
So it got flipped through thewhole story.
SPEAKER_01 (29:06):
Was that before you had ARC or before you were
putting out your chapters onPatreon?
Yes.
It was way catch that shit.
Kai, but my name is Kiki, andI'm one of the arc readers.
SPEAKER_00 (29:17):
They're quick with us.
If I had my if I had had myreaders then, it definitely
would have gotten caught.
But it was just when my Patreonwas starting to go from like 32
readers to like more than that.
Because Unhinged did well,Psycho did better.
Moonstruck is where it thetrajectory sort of like yeah,
(29:37):
like my income doubled, then ittripled, then it quadrupled, and
after that, it was kind of likeyeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:43):
Our best sellers unhinged in the shop.
Unhinged, unhinged, actually,alternate paperback.
That's what I'm always thinkingabout.
They love the snakes.
Well, they I think people aremoving away from models.
SPEAKER_00 (29:55):
It's really the the naked chest covers are always
going to be.
Controversial.
Some people love them, somepeople hate them.
It's why we do alternate coversbecause then it gives them the
option of like whether they wantthey sell better or whether they
want something more ambiguous.
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
As your shop manager, I'll let you know the
alternate covers they sell sincethey're fully always available.
She had to close the window, itwas raining so hard.
Like I'm not sure if you don'tthink I have a white noise
machine.
So that the alternate covers.
I don't know if people aremoving away from models.
I don't know.
I don't know the data on that.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
Nora Phoenix does a literal survey of all of her
readers every year, and then shespits out the data to all of us
about like, do they still wantManchest?
Do they not want Manchester?
I don't know if she's put outher her survey.
I think she does it in likeMarch.
But like I said, I always justdo the model cover, and then a
few months later I'll do analternate cover that people can
(30:49):
get if you don't like them.
SPEAKER_01 (30:51):
I don't know that's that makes sense.
Like I'll buy it, I'll read it.
I think that's mostly instraight romance that they're
doing the cartoons.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
No, there's a lot of cartoon covers.
You see it a lot in hockeyromance, like sports romance.
They love the love hypothesis.
Yeah, exactly.
Anything that's rom-commie,yeah, you'll see a lot of the
cartoon covers.
Disciplinary action.
SPEAKER_01 (31:18):
Yeah, but it's not, but it's it's just more like
it's not a human man.
Yeah, it's just that wasprobably before you had money.
You can sign like 900 differenttogether in a man.
You have somebody stalking menin Brazil.
It's true.
I do.
SPEAKER_00 (31:34):
Hey, I'm looking for a guy that could pass for like
21, 22 um tattoos, preferably,you know, short hair, dark hair,
like, or I'll say, This guyneeds to have like a really
Abercrombie look, and then he'lllike send me a whole list, like
a whole thing full of likehalf-naked men, and he's like,
(31:55):
Do any of these float your boat?
And I have to I feel like such acreep because I'm like a dirty
old man.
I'm just like, no, illegal.
Well, the guy who actually allof the cover models for
Jericho's boys, with theexception of Paladin, have all
come from this guy, and they'veall been custom photo shoots.
So that's why I get like as manyf shots of these guys as I do,
(32:18):
is because I've literally paidfor the entire photo shoot.
But it's definitely a weird partof my job to be like, hi, I'm a
50-year-old woman and I needyoung boys for my covers.
Creepy.
It feels creepy, even thoughthey're all adult.
Even beyond their photos.
(32:39):
It's gross.
It's gross because you, a15-year-old child, are thinking
about the fact that you might beable to see that like happen.
SPEAKER_01 (32:47):
We're just not allowed to have hobbies besides
like knitting and we're notallowed to be cool anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (32:52):
I saw Okay.
I saw a girl yesterday, she's46, she had eight-year-old
twins.
Well, somebody was like, Whywould you ever do that?
And she's like, Oh, you know, 20years of infertility followed by
finally having the money to havebabies.
Sorry.
This is my uterus, so I'll dowhatever I want.
But everybody's everybody's meanon social media.
We know that.
(33:13):
Yeah, they're brave.
They're so brave.
It's really easy to be bravebehind a keyboard.
No, I think we did good.
I think we can always do a parttwo of Taylor Swift because I
think there's so much thatpeople can learn from like her
marketing.
SPEAKER_01 (33:28):
It's so relatable to literary spaces.
Oh, because it's art.
SPEAKER_00 (33:32):
Well, yeah, art is art.
She's basically a writer as faras like she's a storyteller who
just puts her stories to music.
Yeah.
I feel like Ren is the same way.
A lot of yeah, a lot of peoplethey make songs that are just
poppy and catchy, and like, andthat's great because I love that
too.
But yeah, we can do a part two.
SPEAKER_01 (33:50):
If the Swifties are here, yeah, exactly.
Comment, like, review if you'rea Swifty.
Oh, are the Olivia Rodrigo fanshere?
Let us know in the comments.
We're very nice.
You guys are super nice.
They are nice, right?
We like the songs.
Olivia Rodrigo.
You said forever, and now Idrive a little pasture street.
SPEAKER_00 (34:11):
My album was great.
Like a lot of like little, likethere were some great songs on
there.
I think you can I think we'veproven that.
SPEAKER_01 (34:18):
I'm not loyal.
Do I love Taylor Swift?
Yeah.
I listened to Olivia Rodrigo.
SPEAKER_00 (34:21):
You are on Taylor, don't get it twisted.
I don't think people love you.
This girl will go to the mat forTaylor Swift.
If you like us, rate, review,subscribe.
If you're an author and you wantmore information, like how you
can use Taylor Swift's marketingideas for yourself, hit us up on
the Patreon, and we will catchyou on in the next one.
(34:42):
Bye.
On the flip side.
Catch you on the flip side.
I'm relevant.
SPEAKER_01 (34:46):
Bye.
Bye.
Do I leave?
Hi, everybody.
Welcome to episode seven of theFeral Phantoms Podcast.
Seven.
James, male male romance author.
Busy, busy person.
SPEAKER_01 (00:24):
Pretty much.
So I'm a little out of it.
And I am here with Shannon.
It's me.
I have one client.
She's exclusive.
SPEAKER_00 (00:36):
She likes long walks on the beach.
In your paladas, getting lost inthe rain.
The people at Dunkin' Donutsknow me by name.
I'm so mad.
I ordered an extra large.
That's how much caffeine I waslooking for.
And it sucked.
It's a gamble.
It's the beauty of Duncan.
Is it gonna be perfect?
No.
No, no.
Depends on who's working thatday.
Yeah.
(00:57):
And how much they're in a goodmood.
Okay, so let's talk about TaylorSwift.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Hey, swizzle.
SPEAKER_00 (01:09):
I have notes.
I have so many notes.
But yeah, so I did a freshlisten this morning because I
wanted to get my listen opinionbecause after I hear a song over
and over again, it kind ofbecomes an earworm and you just
like it because it's popular onTikTok or like whatever.
So you have to see the edits.
unknown (01:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:29):
Yeah.
It's like it gets in your head,and all of a sudden you're like,
do I like this song or do I justhear it every six seconds?
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
This one is like one of the ones that you kind of
have to marinate with.
And know that, yes, TorturedPoets Department was poetry.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
Okay, so I actually liked the album.
Like it feels almostcontroversial to say that I
liked it.
But okay, granted, there aresome songs that I was just like,
I will never listen to this oneagain.
Pretty much.
The only two no-skip albums Ihave for Taylor Swift are 1989
and Red.
And that was back in her oldschool days when she delivered
(02:07):
in a very poppy way, but likewhen you really listened and
read the lyrics, you were like,shit, that's deep.
And okay, so here's my here's mytake on before and then I'll let
you have your show.
Show.
Okay, my favorite song is Lifeof a Showgirl.
It's so good.
It's so good.
(02:27):
The second favorite isdefinitely The Fate of Ophelia.
And it's catchy.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
100 on the lid.
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
Yes, it's and it's not even like a lyrics thing.
It's just one of those thingswhere I could just see myself
listening to this on repeat.
You know, we're happy.
SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
It doesn't have to be that deep.
unknown (02:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Ancel is interesting.
How about Lee Romantic?
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
That's my next favorite.
Actually, Romantic.
And it gives me a very highschool enemies.
It's giving 90s.
I could almost lay a teenagedirtbag over this.
100%.
Girl.
How do we feel about it?
(03:16):
I like when she storytells, youknow what I mean?
Because a lot of her songs are,I don't know, about her life,
but when she gets into that realdeep storytelling mode, that's
when I dig her the most.
Anyone called me, honey.
Yeah, exactly.
Ruin the Friendship is verydepressing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Messages.
Fucking friends.
Yeah.
Apparently, that's the hot take.
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
Um Elizabeth Taylor.
I love Elizabeth Taylor.
It's so good.
I think Elizabeth Taylor is oneof those songs that I need
another listen kicks in for me.
Sounds like that.
Like a lot of songs I need tolike kind of like really feel
them.
Like I need to look at thelyrics.
I need to lock in.
But things like Life of aShowgirl, Canceled, The Fate of
(04:05):
Aphelia, like those are onesthat like you hear the first
time and you like the music andyou're just like, okay, this is.
People hate canceled.
Because and I know why they hatecanceled.
Because it's verytongue-in-cheek.
It's very her being like, youknow, everybody gets canceled
for everything.
I'm being canceled all the timebecause getting canceled in the
author world happens uh probabpretty much three times a day.
SPEAKER_01 (04:29):
Um, I think this her fans, all these songs, there's
theories.
So actually romantic, they thinkis about Olivia Rodrigo.
I don't know if you know abouther.
Olivia Rodrigo used to open forher, and then they had some kind
of out.
I don't know what happened.
Olivia Rodrigo has a photo shootof holding a severed hand that
(04:52):
had a bunch of friendshipbracelets on.
She said performing for TaylorSwift fans felt like she was
performing for a bunch ofchildren.
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Rodrigo has beef with Sabrina Carpenter too,
doesn't she?
Because Sabrina Carpenter wasthe next.
So I think that SabrinaCarpenter and her dated the same
guy, and Olivia Rodrigo wrotethat whole fucking album that
made her famous over SabrinaCarpenter.
Maybe that's why Tate picked hernext.
That's why when you said that, Iwas like, wait a year you're so
(05:20):
messy.
See, Sabrina Carpenter andOlivia Rodrigo are pop stars
involved in the public feud in2021 after Rodrigo's song
Driver's License was speculatedto be about Carpenter and their
mutual ex Joshua Bassett, whoguess what?
Nobody remembers anymore.
Who?
But you know who they do?
Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo,Sabrina Carpenter.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
Well, that's who they think romantic is about.
SPEAKER_00 (05:44):
Yeah, it makes sense, especially now that I see
that's you know, with Sabrinabeing on Life of a Showgirl.
SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
It's yeah, no, it's that's how she keeps everybody
hooked.
Because we know when the nextalbum comes out, we get little
pieces of her opinion oneverything we've been reading.
Because she doesn't say shit,but she'll be like, hey, am I?
SPEAKER_00 (06:03):
It's like a wink, no.
And that's something likeauthors need to really
understand.
It's not just bonding with yourfans, it's they're in on the
joke.
Like nobody else is, and anybodywho's not in the circle doesn't
get it, but those who are in thecircle are like, whatever,
because we get it and you don't,kind of thing.
Yes, and I think that's part ofthe reason why a lot of couples
(06:27):
in like Asian BL and in justlike BL in general never come
out, but they never deny eitherbecause it keeps people hooked.
Once you know that they are acouple or they're not a couple,
then it just doesn't, it's notas interesting.
But if you're watchingeverything they do and you're
trying to decode every littlehidden meaning, it just gives
(06:50):
you that dopamine hit that youwant.
Because you could talk about itto people.
You're like, oh, are they?
Aren't they?
Did you see this?
Yeah, yeah.
And so that's part of what Iloved about like about Taylor
Swift's marketing is that shedoes so many things that they've
mastered in Asia too, but younever see other artists do here.
(07:11):
It's interesting that TaylorSwift gets a pass when a lot of
other artists don't, when theydo try to be a little bit
different.
SPEAKER_01 (07:21):
I think it's because she's unapologetic.
Like with this album, she'slike, if you don't like it, I'm
not the art police.
SPEAKER_00 (07:25):
Well, that's the whole point of like canceled, is
like she's basically justsaying, like, I'm never going to
be a hundred percent right.
Like, I'm never going to do theright thing 100% because I'm a
human being and everything.
Like, people fuck up, you know?
But nowadays, you're if you're acelebrity, you're never allowed
to fuck up.
You're not allowed to be toorich, you're not allowed to be
too loud, you're not allowed tohave an opinion that somebody
(07:48):
might consider controversial.
SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
More often, everyone's supporting a
billionaire somewhere.
They're like, I can't supportTaylor Swift, even though she
literally for fun scrollsGoFundMe, like it's social
media, and just donates topeople often.
She gives tons of money to heremployees.
Everybody who's worked with her,like her dancers, she has the
same bass guy from debut.
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
Put it this way: like, Mark Cuban is a but nobody
he nobody talks shit about MarkCuban because he donates money,
he's a Democrat, he does all thesame things Taylor Swift does.
But somehow Taylor Swift is theelitist billionaire, like trying
to be the commoner.
But Mark Cuban gets a pass.
And he buys the differenceexactly.
SPEAKER_01 (08:31):
She's a woman, she did make her own money, and then
everyone saying that this isconservative dog whistling in
this album does not know thatshe publicly came out against
Donald Trump and got deaththreats up the ass.
Like, she can barely go tofootball games.
Now, when she goes to thefootball game, she has to have
like a bulletproof thing.
So, what do you want her to do?
(08:52):
Like, she has stalkers sneakingin her windows.
You're not gonna catch medefending billionaires this
hard.
So don't make me do it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
And then Elizabeth Taylor was good.
Father figure makes me laughbecause it's so mafia romance
coded.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
Yeah, you'll be sleeping with the fishes before
you know you drown in whoseportraits on the mantle of an MM
romance.
Do you know what it's about?
I don't sold her masters, so shedidn't know.
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
This is about the masters thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
And then so she is him, so she's him in the song.
Like he, you know, it's notScooterbron, it's the original
guy who sold it to Scooterbron.
About he does shady shit likeanyway.
He said he so in the song, he'sshe's him, like, you know, I'm
I'm gonna take care of you,da-da-da-da.
(09:43):
And then in the next course, inthe next course, she's her, and
she's like, ah, turns out mydick is bigger.
So she's talking about shit thathappened to her, and people just
aren't they're not getting it,they're it's not clicking with
them.
So it's a little corny, butshe's always been a little
corny.
SPEAKER_00 (09:59):
Like, well, yeah, I mean, there's nothing to me,
there's nothing wrong with beingcorny.
Uh, I will say, Eldest daughteris giving me Elena Bellaswan
feels because I'm a soft girl.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
I don't like it when she does that.
That some people are saying awhite woman came out on TikTok
and said when she said she's nota savage or a bad bitch, she's
actually being racist againstblack women.
And then the black woman cameout and said, interesting.
Tell me why when we said whenshe said the word is savage and
bad bitch, why is thatautomatically take you to black?
Tell us.
(10:31):
So she's always said that uh shewears short skirts, I wear
t-shirts.
She's always been afraid of acool bitch, she knows she's not
cool.
That's the she gets it.
Just like I'm not cool, I'm notsexy.
SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
But I think that is where a lot of people are like
eye-rolling because it's likeshe is cool, she is hot, she's
not because she has a lot ofnerdy interests and she's not
afraid to talk about them.
SPEAKER_01 (10:58):
Yeah, and I think she doesn't have a big fat juicy
ass.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
Let's talk about wood.
Not my favorite.
I would have to say it's thesecond to last favorite next to
that wish list song.
SPEAKER_01 (11:12):
Little wish list.
It was weirdly never dreamt of abasketball hoop.
SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
No, I think it's because it's kind of giving
careful what you wish for.
You know, it's oh, you can be abillionaire if you want to.
I just want a little whitepicket fence and a nice yard and
having kids with you.
That's really easy to say whenyou're a billionaire.
Easy to be like, oh, I don'tcare about it.
I just want kids.
(11:39):
And it's like, yeah, because youdid the ambitious part.
SPEAKER_01 (11:42):
You're fucking rich now.
Even if you just had TravisKelsey money, that's still I'll
never have a third of that in myentire life.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
You would still be a rich bitch.
Good for you.
And this is the thing.
It's like, what is too rich?
We're all supposed to beambitious, we're all supposed to
want everything, we're allsupposed to like be able to have
it all.
Like, yo, you can be everybodywants you to have that.
Where's the cutoff where you gofrom being rich to being so rich
that now you're a twat?
(12:16):
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
It's once you start surpassing Well you're doing it
too much, you're successing toomuch, you're dropping too many
albums when other people'sfavorites are dropping albums,
or you know what it is, and it'seasy to hate people that are
just continue to break recordsafter record after record after
record.
People saying they hate thealbum, but checks your
(12:39):
scoreboard, they're fuckinglistening to it, they're
knocking on wood.
And when I heard that song forthe first time, I was giggling,
kicking my feet.
Listen, I don't know if you knowwho she's been dating her whole
life, but it's these twink assdeep ass flick boys.
SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
There's songs in this album that she wrote just
for her.
Yes, you know what I mean?
She wrote songs that were justfor her, and I get it.
I mean, when you're in love, youwant to fucking brag about it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
Never been dicked down like this before.
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
There are many hard to see mad right now, just
punching the air.
SPEAKER_01 (13:14):
There are skinny little twinks, and I just know.
I just know.
She also dated really deep.
She did like the whole like deepmusician guy.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Yeah, she dated Maddie Healy, which he talked
about himself in the thirdperson the entire interview.
Like, what the fuck is that?
And also, yes, she was reallyyoung, and he was not.
SPEAKER_01 (13:34):
And fairness too, I think she dated uh Jonah.
Was it a Jonas?
She did date a Jonas brother.
And she was like 20 orsomething, and he was like, I
think 17, 18.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Yeah, I'm actually kind of like thrown by the the
amount of people over the last20 years who even women, when
you're like looking at the agedifference in some of these
relationships in Hollywood,you're just like nobody flagged
(14:05):
that?
No 2000s things get a littlemurky.
SPEAKER_01 (14:08):
I never did it myself.
SPEAKER_00 (14:08):
Yeah, not that was a little shady.
SPEAKER_01 (14:10):
I think the only time I ever like dated somebody
younger than me, I didn't evenknow their age until afterwards,
and there was only a two-yearage difference between us, but I
made a note specifically about aquote that I saw that I thought
was relevant to everyone was madabout all the variants, right?
(14:32):
So Yeah, that's one of thethings I wanted to talk about.
You start, and I saw oh wait, Ithink I found it.
Hang on.
Damn it.
It was something like variantsdon't create a demand, they feed
the demand.
So she's creating variantsbecause there is already a
market for it.
So, like in like for you, youcan create 20 different variants
(14:55):
for your books because there's ademand for it.
People aren't gonna get mad atyou because you're not Taylor
Swift, they're just gonna behappy that they have different
choices.
But I thought that was a goodquestion.
No, they get don't get don't getdon't get a choice.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Some people do get mad.
But it's like one of thosethings where you know I tell
people they're not Pokemon, Ihave to catch them all to you
and let the other ones go.
No, it's just marketing.
It one, it's just marketing, buttwo, I only have a limited
supply of things that I workwith.
I only have 30 books that I'vewritten.
I've only been doing this foryears, like at least in the MM
(15:29):
space.
No, like there's a cat voice.
Oh no, poor Lobo.
Are you scared?
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
That's enough.
Well, the cat just beat the shitup for no reason.
SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
Yeah, I'm the editor.
Larians.
Well, I just launched my artisteditions yesterday.
SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
And they're so pretty.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
Shout out to T-Reader.
Oh my gosh, I love her so much.
She sends me memes all the timeabout K-pop demon hunters.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
I said, Talisha, I'm in the shop.
What are we doing?
She goes, Ah, I got it.
I said, How many do you have?
She's one of the people thatbought a mystery swag bag.
And I messaged her and I said,Talisha, you have it all.
There's nothing in this bag thatyou don't have.
(16:15):
She bought two.
I said, Talisha, what are wedoing, babe?
We just got money to burn.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
She's in the UK.
I think some people do.
I think some people think thatlike I'm their favorite charity.
They just like my books and theywant me.
SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
She bought two mystery bags and then she's
like, Can I do a giveaway?
I have all this stuff.
I said, I know, bitch.
I know.
I told you you didn't.
She's like, but yeah, just incase.
I'm telling you, there is nojust in case.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
Well, I will tell you that we're making these
character cards, this artistthat I'm working with, and
they're just gonna be cards thatwe throw randomly into the box
when you ship something.
SPEAKER_01 (16:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
So like people can collect them, but they won't
necessarily know what they'regonna get.
SPEAKER_01 (16:58):
Oh, they are Pokemon cards.
You said you promise no Pokemoncards.
Lies! Lies.
Everybody rewind a minute and 30seconds back, which goes,
they're not Pokemon cards.
SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
You don't have to collect them all.
And you know how I know this?
Because I am looking at my shelfof tiny tan toys from fucking
McDonald's.
And you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01 (17:19):
It's crazy because we were doing them for Presley,
my sister-in-law.
SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
Yeah, no, she got them all.
In Asia, you just walk up to thething and you push the button
and you tell them which one youwant.
Here, they're like, whatever,bitch, just take your toy and
go.
I don't care if you've gotseven.
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Come back tomorrow for another happy meal.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Meanwhile, in Asia, they're like, How about we just
give you the toy you want andyou go walk somewhere?
Eat.
Go eat your vegetables.
Well, actually, McDonald's isn'tnearly as unhealthy in Asia as
it is here.
Yeah, you can get vegetableshere.
Yeah, exactly.
What are they talking about?
Yeah, but no, like, I mean youknow me.
(17:56):
I'm a huge stray kids fan.
I get every photo card, all ofthem, and I never know what I'm
gonna get.
And if I was really dedicated,like some of these people are, I
would trade them with otherpeople.
And people do that, they tradethem to get the full set of
whatever they're missing.
And yeah, you know, until peoplesell random shit in there.
SPEAKER_01 (18:17):
But I mean or complain that they already had
it.
Yeah, I couldn't have been moreclear that this was leftover
stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
Most people were happy.
We had a few complainers thatwere like just could not wait to
run to the reviews to be like,like, we told you.
They're like, how dare you giveme what I paid for?
Like, I don't know what theywanted.
But most people were happy witheverything.
Yeah.
I mean, I thought there wasgonna be kickback about the
(18:44):
price of the artist editionsbecause they're so expensive.
I mean, part of it is going tocharity, so like, but I I mean,
we sold 30 just yesterday.
Like, and luckily you don't haveto fulfill any of those.
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
Well, I have to request the fulfillment.
Okay.
I wish you were the oneindividually paying for them.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
I'd be poor.
Yeah, I think that that's whatTaylor does really well.
Also, when she was cancelledwith that whole with can't yeah,
and she really got cancelled thefuck boots down.
And she did exactly what I woulddo.
She disappeared, she took sometime, she reinvented herself a
(19:34):
little bit, she came back andshe owned it in a way Reputation
is my favorite album.
What catapulted her from likeA-less celebrity to like God
tier, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (19:47):
Because I I'm just curious who on Kanye's team
leaked the other part of thatphone call that actually cleared
her, where she did say, I don'treally know how I feel about
make that bitch famous.
I don't really like that line,or whatever she said.
And they cut that part out ofthe phone call.
(20:08):
And then I don't to this day,everyone says it was Chris
Jenner.
They think she's this like asecret Swifty.
I don't think she did that toher own daughter.
She sold her own daughter sextape.
True.
So I still to this day wonderwho leaked that.
But when she came back, the trueSwifties were like, I don't give
a fuck.
I wasn't a Swifty back then, Iwas doing crazy shit.
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
I appreciate when you part of me wonders if it was
all just a publicity stunt,because I know so many people
like on the inside.
Like, I have a friend who worksfor a A-list celebrity, and so
much of it is manufactured, somuch of the stuff, like of
(20:52):
people dating is manufactured,so much of the drama is
manufactured.
There are A-list celebrities whocall paparazzi to tell them
they'll be someplace, just sothey could be like, stop taking
my picture.
But I mean, like, of course, andit's just so it have all been an
elaborate, like, publicitystunt.
Yeah.
And if it was, good on all ofthem.
(21:14):
I don't think so.
I think she has some emotion.
I don't have any skin in thegame.
I guess.
But I remember when it happened,there was people who were like,
oh, when it came when her sideof the story came out and it was
proven, then everybody was like,hmm.
It's weird that somehow she gota hold of the other side of the
phone call.
How long has she been sitting onthat?
(21:34):
You know, like, was it allplanned because she did have
that other side of the phonecall?
Or did somebody defect somebodyelse?
Somebody else leaked it.
It wasn't well, it might havebeen Taylor Swift, we don't
know, but yeah.
But honestly, it could have beenanything.
It could have been Taylor'slawyers going to people being
like, Hey, if you can prove thisis, you know, there's something,
you know, if you could prove ourside, you know, and they leaked
(21:56):
it that way.
Just put in a uh Taylor Swifttook my video off of YouTube.
Like, no, she didn't.
Taylor Swift has no idea thatyou used her song in a wedding
video.
She doesn't.
YouTube.
It's why Ren, the music artist,is so famous.
Because you, when you're signingup, you have to basically say
whether people have the rightsto use your whole song, your
(22:19):
whole video when they'rereacting to your stuff.
And that's why you'll see a lotof reactors pause and like talk
and then start the song againand then pause because you have
to have these breaks.
Ren was like, I don't care.
He's like, if you're gonna talkabout my music, have my video,
like yeah, watch the wholething, it's totally worth it.
And he skyrocketed because ofthat.
(22:41):
I will tell anybody who wants tobe a YouTuber, Stray Kids and
Ren, if you talk nicely aboutthose two fandoms, they will
come running.
They will shoot your YouTubechannel to the stratosphere in
very small measure.
They call them renegades, likethe Ren fans, they call them
renegades.
Like, they love to hear peoplefind Ren because he is so like
(23:06):
different.
Like his music is everywhere, heraps, he's sings, he plays
guitar, he does like all kindsof stuff.
And I think that that's why likewhen people are like, Oh, they
she copyright striked me.
I'm like, no, she didn't.
She has no idea that you usedher song in a video.
(23:27):
She's not Taylor Swift, amonumental corporation who has
hundreds of employees that shehas to keep going easily.
SPEAKER_01 (23:36):
She could for the rest of their lives without
doing another thing.
The exact same albums, well,with vault tracks, and we still
want the reputation vaulttracks.
I don't care if you don'tre-record the album, that's
fine.
You own it now, that's great.
Release the vault tracks, bitch.
Okay, I know you're gettingdicked down, you're busy.
Go ahead, release that.
That they would outsell theoriginal, you know what I mean?
(23:56):
And the her fans would literallynot listen to anything that
wasn't Taylor's version.
And Taylor's version is such athing with the Swifties that
just so interesting.
And she's like, Yeah, who wouldthink, like, who would do that?
You know, like who, and then shedid it.
It's revolutionary to the musicindustry, and new artists are
(24:17):
paying attention to masters andowning your own art.
And she just got her master'sback, and that's her life's
work.
Uh, it would be like if you, Iguess if you're traditionally
published or something, owningyour own book, owning your own
story, like selling that away.
SPEAKER_00 (24:34):
The person who wrote the vampire diaries, Smith, she
she lost the rights to write herown characters.
She had to write fan fictionabout characters she created in
a shared world concept on Amazonjust to keep writing her own
characters because something inthat contract yeeted control of
(24:55):
her own characters.
And that is why I pay money toan entertainment lawyer, and I
we sat on that Japan contractfor over a year of negotiations
because there was just certainthings that they would not like
concede to until we just gotdown to like the you know, you
either yes or no kind of thing.
(25:17):
And so many people don't knowuntil it happens to you, like
the whole masters thing thatpeople getting discovered.
I don't want to be a bother.
I don't want like you know, I'mjust gonna go.
Exactly.
You know, whoever you're workingwith saw your talent, they saw
whatever, and they were like, Ohyeah, this kid's got something.
(25:40):
It's a business to these people,it always will be, and they
don't give a fuck.
And that is like that hustleculture where it's just like if
you want to make money, youcan't be empathetic, you can't
be nice, you have to becutthroat.
I think we're getting away fromthat in some aspects, but I
don't think that will everhappen in the entertainment
industry.
I don't think they'll ever getaway from that entirely.
SPEAKER_01 (26:03):
Well, I think it was what she did, it's definitely
made people pay more attentionto their intellectual property,
especially creative types likeyourself, people in music, your
intellectual property, even ifyou're new to it, you know,
don't let people take advantageof you.
SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
Well, and that's the thing, you don't know until you
know.
When I wrote Children Shouldn'tPlay with Dead Things, I thought
I had researched everythingthere was to know about indie
authors.
And then, like a week after Ipublished, I was like, I don't
know what the fuck I'm doing.
There's so many new authors whodon't know even the basic stuff,
and there's no trad pub likethat's gonna do it all for them.
(26:41):
Like you, when you become anindie author, you become your
own business owner.
I'm lucky because now I'm at apoint where I have, you know,
you and Molly and people that Ican kind of like spread out some
of the responsibility.
SPEAKER_01 (26:55):
Well, then there's so many people out there with
services like Breathless Lit andother people.
You could easily find somebodyin author services that can
guide you, put you to the rightprinter.
Like they just know the stuff.
They're like, Well, there's thisprinter out of here, and there's
this printer, and they can justguide you cost money.
SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
Which that's where like the whole paying for an
editor versus just publishingyour book without an editor,
don't you?
Readers hate mistakes in books,pay an editor, but like a lot of
authors who don't have the moneyare like, oh, it's elitist to
say that my book is bad becauseI don't have an editor.
It's your call.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
If you want to put out a bookthat people may get thrown out
(27:36):
of the story by multiple errors,then my brain automatically
corrects.
And that's a lot of people won'tnotice.
It's like a lot of people usingthe software to translate books
or using Google to translatetheir books.
A lot of German readers, they'rewilling to overlook that because
they just want the story, youknow.
But a lot of them aren't, youknow.
(27:57):
So it's just hit or miss.
And it's just what you'rewilling to.
Me, I'm a Virgo, I'm aperfectionist.
I can't stand the idea ofsomebody looking at my books and
finding a mistake.
It happens all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
One time we had a cover mistake, we misspelled
psycho.
Remember that?
SPEAKER_00 (28:10):
Yeah, we misspelled on the cover of books that we
had to order in advance.
It would suck.
Special editions.
SPEAKER_01 (28:15):
Yeah, special editions.
Yeah, that was uh nightmarefuel.
Yeah, after I had shipped out250 boxes, and let me tell you,
these were a set of eight.
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
Yeah.
With merchants, definitely notone of our boxes.
SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
Nightmares.
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
If I ever boxes were showing up, responsible for
she's gonna quit.
SPEAKER_01 (28:36):
Oh my gosh.
It was and then Psycho wasmisspelled, and the email
started rolling in.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
I have a whole character swap in my story.
Like in Moonstruck, somewherealong the way, I in one
paragraph switched twocharacters, Nico and Levi.
Like I switched their names,which happens all the time.
Like it happens all the time.
So it got flipped through thewhole story.
SPEAKER_01 (29:06):
Was that before you had ARC or before you were
putting out your chapters onPatreon?
Yes.
It was way catch that shit.
Kai, but my name is Kiki, andI'm one of the arc readers.
SPEAKER_00 (29:17):
They're quick with us.
If I had my if I had had myreaders then, it definitely
would have gotten caught.
But it was just when my Patreonwas starting to go from like 32
readers to like more than that.
Because Unhinged did well,Psycho did better.
Moonstruck is where it thetrajectory sort of like yeah,
(29:37):
like my income doubled, then ittripled, then it quadrupled, and
after that, it was kind of likeyeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:43):
Our best sellers unhinged in the shop.
Unhinged, unhinged, actually,alternate paperback.
That's what I'm always thinkingabout.
They love the snakes.
Well, they I think people aremoving away from models.
SPEAKER_00 (29:55):
It's really the the naked chest covers are always
going to be.
Controversial.
Some people love them, somepeople hate them.
It's why we do alternate coversbecause then it gives them the
option of like whether they wantthey sell better or whether they
want something more ambiguous.
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
As your shop manager, I'll let you know the
alternate covers they sell sincethey're fully always available.
She had to close the window, itwas raining so hard.
Like I'm not sure if you don'tthink I have a white noise
machine.
So that the alternate covers.
I don't know if people aremoving away from models.
I don't know.
I don't know the data on that.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
Nora Phoenix does a literal survey of all of her
readers every year, and then shespits out the data to all of us
about like, do they still wantManchest?
Do they not want Manchester?
I don't know if she's put outher her survey.
I think she does it in likeMarch.
But like I said, I always justdo the model cover, and then a
few months later I'll do analternate cover that people can
(30:49):
get if you don't like them.
SPEAKER_01 (30:51):
I don't know that's that makes sense.
Like I'll buy it, I'll read it.
I think that's mostly instraight romance that they're
doing the cartoons.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
No, there's a lot of cartoon covers.
You see it a lot in hockeyromance, like sports romance.
They love the love hypothesis.
Yeah, exactly.
Anything that's rom-commie,yeah, you'll see a lot of the
cartoon covers.
Disciplinary action.
SPEAKER_01 (31:18):
Yeah, but it's not, but it's it's just more like
it's not a human man.
Yeah, it's just that wasprobably before you had money.
You can sign like 900 differenttogether in a man.
You have somebody stalking menin Brazil.
It's true.
I do.
SPEAKER_00 (31:34):
Hey, I'm looking for a guy that could pass for like
21, 22 um tattoos, preferably,you know, short hair, dark hair,
like, or I'll say, This guyneeds to have like a really
Abercrombie look, and then he'lllike send me a whole list, like
a whole thing full of likehalf-naked men, and he's like,
(31:55):
Do any of these float your boat?
And I have to I feel like such acreep because I'm like a dirty
old man.
I'm just like, no, illegal.
Well, the guy who actually allof the cover models for
Jericho's boys, with theexception of Paladin, have all
come from this guy, and they'veall been custom photo shoots.
So that's why I get like as manyf shots of these guys as I do,
(32:18):
is because I've literally paidfor the entire photo shoot.
But it's definitely a weird partof my job to be like, hi, I'm a
50-year-old woman and I needyoung boys for my covers.
Creepy.
It feels creepy, even thoughthey're all adult.
Even beyond their photos.
(32:39):
It's gross.
It's gross because you, a15-year-old child, are thinking
about the fact that you might beable to see that like happen.
SPEAKER_01 (32:47):
We're just not allowed to have hobbies besides
like knitting and we're notallowed to be cool anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (32:52):
I saw Okay.
I saw a girl yesterday, she's46, she had eight-year-old
twins.
Well, somebody was like, Whywould you ever do that?
And she's like, Oh, you know, 20years of infertility followed by
finally having the money to havebabies.
Sorry.
This is my uterus, so I'll dowhatever I want.
But everybody's everybody's meanon social media.
We know that.
(33:13):
Yeah, they're brave.
They're so brave.
It's really easy to be bravebehind a keyboard.
No, I think we did good.
I think we can always do a parttwo of Taylor Swift because I
think there's so much thatpeople can learn from like her
marketing.
SPEAKER_01 (33:28):
It's so relatable to literary spaces.
Oh, because it's art.
SPEAKER_00 (33:32):
Well, yeah, art is art.
She's basically a writer as faras like she's a storyteller who
just puts her stories to music.
Yeah.
I feel like Ren is the same way.
A lot of yeah, a lot of peoplethey make songs that are just
poppy and catchy, and like, andthat's great because I love that
too.
But yeah, we can do a part two.
SPEAKER_01 (33:50):
If the Swifties are here, yeah, exactly.
Comment, like, review if you'rea Swifty.
Oh, are the Olivia Rodrigo fanshere?
Let us know in the comments.
We're very nice.
You guys are super nice.
They are nice, right?
We like the songs.
Olivia Rodrigo.
You said forever, and now Idrive a little pasture street.
SPEAKER_00 (34:11):
My album was great.
Like a lot of like little, likethere were some great songs on
there.
I think you can I think we'veproven that.
SPEAKER_01 (34:18):
I'm not loyal.
Do I love Taylor Swift?
Yeah.
I listened to Olivia Rodrigo.
SPEAKER_00 (34:21):
You are on Taylor, don't get it twisted.
I don't think people love you.
This girl will go to the mat forTaylor Swift.
If you like us, rate, review,subscribe.
If you're an author and you wantmore information, like how you
can use Taylor Swift's marketingideas for yourself, hit us up on
the Patreon, and we will catchyou on in the next one.
(34:42):
Bye.
On the flip side.
Catch you on the flip side.
I'm relevant.
SPEAKER_01 (34:46):
Bye.
Bye.
Do I leave?
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