October 22, 2025 • 47 mins
Ever wonder why the second couple feels like the real main event? We sit down with Peachy—guest relations director for CitrusCon and creator of Church of BL—to trace how Boys’ Love evolves from gateway ships to full-blown obsession, and why fandom keeps returning to dangerous tropes, exquisite art, and redemption arcs that actually land. From Inuyasha-era headcanons to AO3 as a badge of honor, we connect the dots between fanfiction, validation, and the joy of seeing your characters live rent-free in someone else’s brain.
We trade manhwa must-reads—Taming The Tiger, Bloodlink, Mania—and dissect the gravitational pull of BJ Alex and the hard line some of us drew with Jinx. Along the way, we talk ABO Desire’s scene-stealing side couple and what writers can learn when secondary arcs outshine the leads. Regional flavors matter too: Korean BL as the perfect palate cleanser with real chemistry and earned intimacy; Thai BL leveling up direction, consent, and storytelling while shedding dated language and fixable misunderstandings. It’s fandom as critique, craft as care, and a reminder that global audiences are pushing the genre forward.
The conversation turns personal—visual novels as interactive BL where “bad endings” can be delicious, trans joy in getting to “be the boy,” and how gender exploration often blooms inside these stories. We open up about neurodivergence, masking, EMDR therapy, and the comfort of narratives that let emotions run high without apology. Parasocial boundaries get equal airtime: shipping actors vs. characters, calling people readers not fans, and keeping Discord communities vibrant without burning out. By the end, you’ll have a stacked rec list, a sharper lens for consent and redemption, and a deeper sense of why BL feels like home to so many.
Love the show? Follow, rate, and share it with a friend who has second couple syndrome. Drop your spiciest manhwa rec or your favorite redemption arc in the comments—what should we cover next?
Want the uncut chaos + bonus episodes? Join us inside the cult at Patreon.com/TheBurnedOutMuse. Or find everything else (Discord, socials, freebies) at linktr.ee/theburnedoutmuse.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:09):
Hey everybody, this is a special episode of the
Feral Fandoms Podcast.
I am here solo without Shannon.
She had a childcare crisis.
We are here to break down allkinds of fandom stuff revolving
around BL, which is greatbecause Shannon doesn't know
anything about BL and I'm dyingto talk to somebody about it.
Welcome!
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Hello.
Tell everybody who you are.
I'm Peachy.
I am the guest slash sponsor,director, guest relations
director for CitrusCon, a boys'love virtual 18 convention.
And I also run something calledthe Church of BL, which is my
own content creation stuff whereI talk about debauchery and
(00:53):
things like all of our favoritethings.
Love is my entire brand.
Yeah, so I've read everythingthat Only's ever written.
I'm kind of a simp.
I have all of the audiobooks.
(01:15):
Liam DeCosmo is a saint.
Isn't he amazing?
So it's it's really fun runninga convention that you give a
shit about because BL is myblood.
It is what I'm made up of.
And uh having a con for that,and that's like a good 30-40% of
my life now.
SPEAKER_01 (01:33):
So it's so much fun.
Yeah, I had such a blast atCitrus Con.
What was your gateway BL?
What was the first BL you everwatched?
SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
Oh god.
The gateway drug was probablyshipping in Inuyasha when I was
a young'un.
Um I am a piece of absolutegarbage.
So I would ship like InuyashaShoshomaru or Inuyasha and Koga.
Um and that just grew intoGoogling things that I shouldn't
(02:09):
be Googling at like 14.
And then that kind of ended upgoing towards like Ginger
Romantica and Gravitation, SekaiChi Hatsukoi, like all of the
the the classics.
I was there with the Yowiepaddle.
SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
Yeah.
How old do you think you werewhen you started getting into
BL?
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Like 14 or 15.
I won't say what year that wasbecause we have an age gap and I
don't want you to think aboutit.
An age gap?
Yeah.
You're much older.
You're my wife's age, if thathelps.
Oh.
SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
Would you like much older women?
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
That's a twiddle's hair.
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
A little bit of a gap.
Yeah, you're definitely youngerthan me because I can't even
remember seeing anything BLrelated as a child.
Like, I don't even think I metsomebody who was out of the
closet until I was like 19.
It wasn't now all of my friendsare gay, so I don't even
recognize straight peopleanymore.
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
I I've Except for the ones in my family.
I feel like I find my peoplelike all of our friends are all
like neurodivergent.
SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Yep, they're all neurodivergent and they're all
gay.
And so when I see straight,neurotypical people, I don't
know how to function.
I would say I was reading BLlong before I started watching
BL.
I was definitely into Lazen andstuff later, but I don't even
remember the first ship Istarted reading AO3,
(03:40):
fanfiction.net.
But the first BL I watched thatwasn't a common US show was Kin
Porsche.
Not late to the game I was agood game.
SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
That is that's a good one.
I was in the game before StuffLesen and Webtoon and stuff like
that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
You were naming some stuff that I was like, oh wow.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
I didn't really get on AO3 until probably COVID,
honestly.
Before COVID, I wasn't reallybig on fanfiction until like
COVID ruined me.
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
So yeah, I found fanfiction when my mom was sick.
When my mom was in hospice, Istumbled onto of all things the
most embarrassing thing in theworld.
Glee fanfiction.
About that in in other episodes.
Yeah, that's when I think Istumbled into AO3 specifically.
Yeah.
But yeah.
I remember fanfiction.net.
(04:41):
They were never as big.
They're not AO3.
AO3 just really exploded andjust it had longevity.
And I think that was probablybecause of Tumblr.
SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Yeah.
AO3's gonna be at the con.
Is it?
Yeah.
I think I can say that becauseI'm talking to them right now.
But uh if not, you guys didn'thear anything.
You heard nothing.
You heard nothing.
You can't be disappointed to us.
But I have connections with thepeople that run AO3, and uh
they're maybe possibly going todo a panel this year.
(05:12):
So that's cool.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
I think above all the things that really made me
feel like an accomplishedauthor, having people write fan
fiction and putting it on AO3was like my oh my god moment.
SPEAKER_00 (05:27):
I need to find this.
SPEAKER_01 (05:30):
It's there.
There's quite a few of them.
We're not talking like Destiolevels of love, but there's way
more than a little tiny authorlike me ever thought there would
be.
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
That's amazing.
I need to not only read this butwrite it.
Why have I not done thisalready?
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
I don't read it because I don't want it to
influence like my own storylinesbecause sometimes it's the same
reason I don't read gay romanceanymore, is because I'm like,
wow, they're way better at thisthan I am.
It gets in my head too much.
But I do look at it and oh look,look at that.
I made that.
And then Mulvaney Media, thatfan account that runs like a lot
(06:05):
of stuff.
She'll always put up whensomebody does a new fanfiction,
they'll send it to her andshe'll put it up on her account.
And I'm like, that's so cool.
That's yeah.
Somebody asked me, they're like,Oh my god, are you okay with us
writing fanfiction about yourstuff?
I'm like, please, please writefanfic.
Yes, don't make money off of it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:23):
Yeah, that is the one downside.
SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
Only because my entertainment attorney would
shoot me in the face.
I don't care.
My attorneys do, but I don'tgive a shit.
God, what are you watching rightnow?
Are you watching anything?
Are you reading anything?
What's what do you what's good?
What's good?
I'm really into Monhua rightnow.
Hurrying.
Somebody's been sending me likerecs, and I have not had a
chance.
I've between the podcast andwriting and the stupid 13 nights
(06:47):
of Halloween debacle that I'mgoing through that I thought was
gonna be a good idea, is just somuch work.
Oh, but yeah, somebody keepssending me all these good recs,
and I'm like, I don't have time,but I want to read them.
I'm like, I'm so behind on allthe good stuff coming out.
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
I'm just gonna go through my recents on lessons.
Oh my god, one of my favoriteauthors is called Brothers
Without a Tomorrow.
And they do, they're Korean,they do Manhua, and literally
everything they've ever writtenis fantastic and perfect and
amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
Give me titles.
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
Smyrna Capri is one.
Taming the Tiger is my favorite.
Zero is a newer one, but there'ssome stuff going on with that
one where we're not entirelycertain if it's gonna get
finished.
So I'm kind of upset.
Bloodlink is really good.
One that you in particular wouldlike based off of my parasocial
(07:42):
relationship with you throughyour books is Mania.
Oh, yeah, that sounds right up.
You would definitely like Mania.
It's gangsters and it actuallysounds familiar.
If you're into Monwa, you mighthave seen it.
Yeah.
It's it's very pretty, twistedending.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
I started with all of the typical Manoir, like Love
is an illusion and the kind oftamer ones.
Then I read BJ Alex, which wasso toxic.
Oh, yeah, and yet I could notput it down.
Yeah, could not put it down.
I was obsessed with it.
I gave up on Jinx like seasontwo.
(08:27):
Yeah.
I know he was so mean.
I normally I can handle it, butI'm just like, I don't know.
He was so physically mean.
I'm waiting a little harder.
SPEAKER_00 (08:40):
I'm waiting for it to be done because I like the
redemption arc because that'swhere they're at right now is
redeeming his bullshit.
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Well, and that's exactly what happened with BJ
Alex.
Yeah, is there always thatturning point, and I just kept
reading because I was like, atsome point it's gonna turn and
he's gonna turn into a totalsimp.
And I just can't get there.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
My favorite in BJ Alex is the other ship.
The other ship, the other shipand BJ Alex.
They're my favorite.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
I I love it.
100 it's second ship syndromefor sure.
And sometimes I wonder, becauseI'm obviously as an author, I
think about it all the time.
I'm like, how is it that we endup shipping the second couple so
much harder than the first in alot of series?
And like, why did the secondcouple go so hard if they
weren't the main couple?
(09:26):
You know what I mean?
Why didn't she develop the storyor he and then just go, you know
what?
This story is way more juicy inthe new Chinese BL, ABO Desire.
First off, I have not read ABODesire, I only watched it.
And the guy I was watching itwith kept calling him the
(09:47):
psychotic twink.
I've all seen one episode.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
I'm moving off of like one episode of what I've
seen.
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
I need to commit to it.
Yeah.
When I say this kid is unhinged,he's an enigma, which is fairly
common.
So I don't think I'm giving awayany spoilers.
Common knowledge, I should say.
But yeah, he's like an enigma,and he ends up impregnating an
alpha who does not realize he'san enigma.
It's very toxic, it's a very oldschool BL.
(10:18):
Like the second couple, theirstory is so much more juicy.
He's an omega who's takinghormones to pretend to be a
beta.
He's in love with his boss whohates omegas.
His boss is in love with him,but thinks he's a beta.
And it's just like it's so muchmore juicy, but somehow we get
16 episodes of the main couplewhose story gets resolved in ep
(10:38):
nine.
And I'm just like, who cares?
Move this story, it is so muchjuicier.
Why don't we call me scraps?
SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
I was the same way with BJ Alex because I reread
stuff all the time, and I'lljust go back to only their
episodes, only their chapters,especially their extras, the
stuff that happened after theManhua is quote unquote done.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
Those are the best little side stories and the
little like extras.
SPEAKER_00 (11:04):
So good.
It's so fucking good.
Healthy, so good.
Like they had a reasonablyrealistic BDSM relationship.
They really did.
It wasn't super crazy toxicawful, which I like super crazy
toxic awful.
SPEAKER_01 (11:20):
I am a different person when I'm reading
fanfiction and when I'm readingany kind of manwall or manga.
I'm a different person.
I don't write it, but my god, doI mainline it?
I don't know why, but I love itso much.
It's so good.
Yeah, it's juicy.
It's so good.
SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
It's good shit.
SPEAKER_01 (11:39):
Trying to see some of the titles that I've
finished.
Do you want toxic monwan?
Hit me with all of it.
I'm down for all of it.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
Red Mansion.
Red Mansion is like almost likeyou need to be really
disconnected from the couple inorder to enjoy it because it's
that toxic.
It's that fucked up.
It's like Stockholm Syndromemeets general abuser, like
(12:11):
physically abused.
It's very, very, very, verydark.
Red Mansion is completed andit's really good.
It's very toxic.
Please don't at me like it's No,don't worry.
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
I don't hold any listen.
When I tell you the stuff that Ihave read, it's funny because I
sound like I'm being real, Idon't know, holier than thou
when it comes to say jinx, butnot really.
Because right now, my biggest,my favorite story I'm reading
right now is cash or credit.
Okay.
Have you checked that one out?
Oh my god.
(12:43):
Okay, so this kid gets thrown injail for I want to say hacking.
Yeah, he's a hacker.
He gets thrown in jail andbasically starts getting essayed
by this guard.
Okay.
Everybody's terrified of him,including the warden.
And he basically gets to dowhatever he wants in the prison.
(13:05):
But it turns out that he's likea mafia guy.
And he's after the kid inparticular because he ripped him
off.
But the kid doesn't know it.
He only knows him by his name.
So he's in there.
Oh, I'm going to basically makethis kid's life miserable and
then I'm going to kill him.
Only they're both falling inlove with each other.
(13:27):
So the warden's son is also aguard, and he's trying to
basically who I for some reason,somehow the kid and him have met
before, and he for the kid, butthe kid isn't into him.
But he thinks that he like hecan somehow get him away from
the guard's name is Michael.
He can get him away fromMichael, and then the kid will
be like grateful.
(13:47):
So he's trying to get the kid tosell out Michael, and he is
trying to play both of them sothat he doesn't basically end up
dead by one side or the other.
And it's just so juicy and it isso wrong on every level, but
it's just so good.
I'm really into mafia stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
So a lot of the gangster mafia type things that
I'm into are very, very toxic.
When you were talking about thatone, that made me think of Legs
That Won't Walk is a really goodone.
I have the Oh, it's so good.
SPEAKER_01 (14:18):
Sorry, I haven't read it.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
I haven't seen it with my eyeballs.
Some way.
That one also kind of has likesecond ship syndrome.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:32):
It's so hard.
What else did I read that wastoxic?
Painters of the Night is one ofmy absolute favorite.
I bought that the minute itended.
I have all of the merch.
I have everything.
I've only spent$200 just on themerch for that stuff.
The one I write like real uhright now that just started
season two was is it silk oversteel?
Steel over silk?
Have you silk silk silk?
SPEAKER_00 (14:53):
We'll get it eventually.
Yes, very good.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
It's so good.
And I was reading the extras,and the author said that they
were going to start the seriesas season two.
Like they were gonna start itwith them being toxic and then
falling in love, but then forsome reason they decided that it
would be better for them to fallfor each other and then have him
be like betray him at the end,and then have season two just be
(15:20):
the whole revenge arc.
And I was like, oh, that's sogood.
That's so good.
Because it makes it so muchjuicier now.
It's just so good, it's so toxicand so wrong.
But I love a good period piece.
I love that.
I don't know what I'm watchingright now.
No.
Oh my god.
(15:40):
Okay.
Ty, Ty Biel, it's Demundi, whichusually I used to be hit or
miss.
I'm not gonna lie.
I love Z and Nanu.
They're very cute, they're verysweet, they're adorable in real
life.
They're good.
I could not get through the nextprints.
It was a little too cheesy forme.
I'm not a fairy tale person.
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:02):
But then they came out with they have all their new
couples in shows now.
Thomas and Kang, I believe.
They did your sky.
Very cute, but very addictive.
The whole thing, sugar in yourmouth kind of stuff.
It just there wasn't a sadmoment to be found in it.
It was just all puppies andunicorns the whole way through.
(16:25):
Very cute.
I call it my palate cleanserafter I get through a really
toxic one.
I'll go back and I'll watchthat.
Yeah.
But then they just came out withKim Jiro, which is this kid has
a karmic curse put on him, andyou don't really know why.
Uh-huh.
But basically, since he was alittle kid, they've been trying
to have this curse lifted, andhe's going to die on his 21st
(16:47):
birthday.
So the mom ends up dying becauseof the curse, and then the dad
becomes a Buddhist monk tryingto atone for his son's karma.
And he becomes friends with thiskid.
They go to the kid's village,and he starts falling in love
with the village priest, who is100% so fucking hot.
(17:14):
He's so beautiful.
And the acting is breathtaking.
The special effects are amazing.
It's so good.
I was shocked that Dumundy putthis out.
That's how good it was.
And not because they producenecessarily bad stuff, but in
the past they've produced mehstuff, real middle of the road.
Not great, not bad.
(17:34):
And a lot of toxic storylinesthat aren't the stuff that could
have been like fixed with oneconversation last 12 episodes.
I can't stand that shit.
SPEAKER_00 (17:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:44):
Because it's not realistic.
We all know that if somebody didsomething to you, you're gonna
go to them and just be like,what the fuck is your problem?
Oh, I saw you kiss somebody.
I'm not gonna talk to you aboutit for four episodes.
No, you're storming into thatrestaurant, you're gonna be
like, What the fuck is going on?
Nobody is that well adjusted ornon-well adjusted that they're
just gonna let it fester.
Not anymore.
Maybe back in the 80s, but notnow.
(18:06):
So that stuff drives me nuts.
But yeah, every episode isbetween an hour and two hours
long.
Jesus.
And it never feels like that.
Every time the episode ends, I'mlike, no.
I love Vincenzo.
Oh my god, I love Vincenzo.
I want a season two so badly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
I'm waiting for an inspo for Park.
Really?
SPEAKER_01 (18:29):
Oh much sense.
I loved him so much in Vincenzo,and I was so sad when it ended
that I literally used him as myinspo for park.
That's amazing.
He's so beautiful.
Though the one who plays thepsycho, the really hot psycho
that was.
He used to be got seven, Ithink.
SPEAKER_00 (18:45):
No, his group.
Oh my god, I wish he was in gotseven.
That would have been amazing.
Oh my god, he's got too muchpower.
I can't think of his group, butlike he's fucking beautiful.
SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
Yeah.
What the fuck up?
I was like, tell me you're notlying to me, right?
Oh my god.
I saw the announcement.
I literally started sending itto everybody I know who watches
Ben Chen.
So I was like, he's getting aBL.
Oh my god, our dreams are comingtrue.
SPEAKER_00 (19:11):
Korean BL is a thing.
I think I just haven't watchedenough of it because the ones
that I have watched just aren'tmy vibe.
Like they're a little toosquishy for me.
SPEAKER_01 (19:23):
I will say all of the BLs that have been my
favorite have usually beenKorean.
But like for different reasons.
I love semantic error.
Yeah.
Because one, I read it first.
Right.
I anger the BL gods.
I'm sorry.
Something just flew off myshelf.
(19:43):
Jesus Christ.
I am alone in my room right now.
Something just blew off myshelf.
Sorry.
Okay.
But yeah, because I loved themain leads.
I thought they were so cute.
And I just liked theirbehind-the-scenes stuff.
And I think that's thatinfluenced it heavily.
(20:04):
But Ballboy Taxics is anotherone that is very cute and
fluffy, and it's got the sizedifference that I just can't get
enough of.
But this one had sex.
It had kisses that were so good.
I was like, do you guys havesomething going on?
Right.
Because the chemistry waschemistrying.
(20:27):
Trying to think of, yeah.
Secret relationships was juicy.
Really juicy.
And that was Korean.
But yeah, they are usually notheavy.
I find them, like I said, to begood palette cleansers, like in
between.
I feel the same way about GMM TVshows.
Yeah.
I will say that they're gettingthe acting.
(20:48):
I don't know what they did tothose boys.
They put them through some kindof machine.
Now all of a sudden they allknow how to kiss.
Now all of a sudden, theiracting is actually pretty
top-notch.
Yeah.
Their storylines are gettingbetter.
The directing is getting better.
They've gotten far away from thestupid, traditional, like old
school stuff that they used todo where you were just like,
(21:10):
this is not, this is abusive.
Yeah.
This isn't even sexy.
It's just bad sex and abuse.
SPEAKER_00 (21:17):
Oh, we're gonna figure out if we're gonna be
friends or not.
Do you like Thorn type?
Did I like it?
SPEAKER_01 (21:24):
It was the second BL I ever watched.
Put it this way, I watched itmore than once.
I liked their chemistry and Iliked the premise in that I
think it was actually realisticin that I think a lot of people
(21:47):
who claim they hate gays havesome unresolved sexual interest
that they haven't really tappedinto.
Because homophobe is gonna belike, you know what?
I'll let you make that.
I'll let you hit it from theback as an apology.
(22:08):
As an apology.
That would be my go-to.
SPEAKER_00 (22:11):
I need to give it another shot.
The vendetta against it.
It's my least favorite.
I just want to hug me.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
Like I will tell you that I would never in a million
years recommend it as a BL.
If somebody was like, oh, I needa BL to watch, it it wouldn't
even be on my radar.
Yeah.
I feel a lot, I would feel thatway about a lot of her work,
though, to be honest.
You know what I mean?
Like Love in the Air.
Again, I will say about Love inthe Air that the other than two
(22:46):
points, it was a very realisticdom-sub relationship, with the
exception of one, he didn't tellthem they were in a dom-sub
relationship.
Okay.
Two, this kid had no clue, likethat he was being manipulated.
And you don't really know howdeep the manipulation goes until
(23:08):
the end of the series, likeliterally the last episode.
You realize that he set this upfrom the very beginning.
Again, side couple syndrome,like the second couple's story
was more interesting, but alsoit was way more.
She has a habit of doing this.
She does things that are supertoxic, but she somehow also
(23:29):
makes the person doing the toxicbehavior just redeemable enough.
Yeah.
To where you want to give themthe benefit of the doubt.
It is the epitome of theintimate partner violence
relationship where you're like,I hate that one thing, but
there's all these other things.
And that's how they keep you.
(23:51):
That's how they keep you.
But unfortunately, all of herbooks are that way.
Love see, love in the air.
Everything she does just hasthis toxic undertone to it, to
the point where even she is nowgoing back and fixing stuff in
her stories because she'srealizing the backlash, like
calling the bottom wife, stufflike that.
(24:14):
As soon as they saw theinternational backlash from
that, they literally went backin and changed the subtitles.
Yeah.
Because I think they're nowrealizing that it's gotten so
much bigger than theyanticipated it would.
It's gone so global.
It's just like K-pop.
Like it's now far outside ofKorea.
And international fans are lesstolerant of things that some
(24:40):
people just say, oh, it'scultural.
And they just don't tolerate it.
And it's not even just Americanssticking their nose in things.
It's everywhere.
Everybody is saying, no, that'snot right.
And so they have to like we haveto cater to our fans.
We have to keep that going.
And we plan on talking aboutthis more in the podcast because
(25:01):
Shannon doesn't really see howthey run like TI BL ships.
SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
And how they get you to ship the actors together, not
the roles.
I wanted to talk about it on thepodcast because when you're
talking to authors, it's likeit's that parasocial
relationship.
And it's crazy what people arewilling to ride out with you if
they're like, no, we're friends.
And I genuinely I call myreaders fans now because that
(25:28):
it's the feral fandoms podcast.
But I never liked calling themfans before.
I always called them my readersbecause I felt like fans makes
it seem like you're up here andthey're down here.
And that's just not something Iever want to think about because
honestly, I'm such a normalperson that every day I wake up
(25:49):
and I'm like, I still can'tbelieve people read my books.
You know what I mean?
I I get up, I get dressed, I sitdown with my coffee, and I just
do my job.
And it's just, but people arejust, oh my God, I can't believe
I'm meeting you and it's notthat big a deal.
SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
The first time we ever talked, I was exactly like
that.
Like, I go back and I look atthe replay of our panel from
Last Citrus Con, and I'm sittingthere like- Oh, crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (26:14):
I was so worried.
I swear to God, I was soworried.
I was like, what if I saysomething stupid?
What if I do something stupid?
What if I don't know enoughabout the source material to
actually provide any kind ofconversation?
Are the source material?
And Shannon will want to talkabout my books on the podcast,
and I'm like, that's not whywe're here.
Anyway.
That's not why we're here.
But what you do, and it doesn'tmatter.
(26:36):
That's not because I don't know.
It's one of those things whereI'm both an attention whore, but
also can't handle compliments.
I get that.
I want people to like me, but Idon't want them to tell me they
like me.
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
Yeah.
I want to make stuff.
I want you to like it, but atthe same time, please don't
compliment me because I don't doanything else.
SPEAKER_01 (26:57):
That's exactly like my therapist would have a field
day with that.
SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
Right after this.
SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
What's funny is I remember telling my therapist
when I dream, I don't dreamabout anything that has to do
with myself.
Yeah.
When I'm always somebody else,I'm a different person.
And I'm basically watchingthings happen to these people.
And she goes, even in yourdreams, you're not the center.
It's like, damn.
That was hard.
(27:23):
God damn.
Well shit.
To know that.
Yeah.
It was like my other therapisttelling me, you make friends
with your therapist so you don'thave to do any work.
That's just mean.
SPEAKER_00 (27:37):
That's just mean.
SPEAKER_01 (27:38):
Then I got shipped off EMDR therapy.
unknown (27:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:41):
Which I just graduated from.
I have three therapists, so I'mright there with you.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
Two group therapy.
When I finished EMDR therapy,she's like, I have the name of
some other therapist that I wantyou to see.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Whoa, whoa.
You said we were done.
She's like, no, no, I said wewere done.
You and me.
Now I think you need talktherapy.
I think I talk enough.
SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
My books are my talk therapy.
Thank you.
I just take it out on mycharacters.
SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
Poor babies.
My poor babies.
We love them.
unknown (28:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
Lynn, you'll like the newsletter thing that's
happening right now.
Oh.
Because my 13 nights ofHalloween is basically I'm doing
like a couple story every day orevery other day, depending on
what else I'm doing in thenewsletter that day.
But basically, we're doing abunch of sales, and I'm doing
stories of all the couples at aparty that Thomas is throwing
called The Villains ofVigilantes Gala.
(28:39):
And it's basically all of mycharacters together in one room
hunting down one specific personthat people have been waiting to
get killed off for years.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
That's great.
Your Patreon.
SPEAKER_01 (28:54):
I need to join your Patreon just so I can like this
will be on the Patreon for thepodcast, but I'll send you the
link so you can watch itwhenever you want.
But also, I'll give you amembership to the Patreon.
You don't have to fuck up.
As long as you have it, it'sfine.
We're friends, girl.
SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
Actually, I didn't even ask your pronouns to them,
but I'm totally I'm fluid.
It's fine.
Was she her?
Maybe.
It is what it is.
SPEAKER_01 (29:23):
Anytime somebody asks me my pronouns, I stumble.
You know what I mean?
Because I'm just she her,because I always have, because
that just seems like that's thecase.
But then some days I don'treally know that actually is.
Yeah.
But you know what?
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
I've got enough to unpack it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Put that on a little shelf fornow.
Unpacking to understand that Iwas a they them.
Like it took a lot of therapyand a lot of talking and
thinking about things that youdon't want to think about.
And yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:50):
And it's just I have grandkids now.
And I hate when people try tolike gender them in a way my my
my grandsons love.
Butterflies.
They love princess stuff.
They love, and I'm like, yeah,buy them the purple unicorn
pajamas.
Buy them the and thank God mydaughter and her wife are like
obviously just fuck yeah, putthem in a P2.
(30:11):
I don't care.
But other people, because we'rein North Carolina, and there's
just that, oh well, you wouldn'tlet them wear that, would you?
Yeah, yeah, fuck off.
Eat shit.
Eat shit.
And honestly, I've gotten to apoint where I don't even have a
filter about it anymore becauseI just don't care.
I'm just like, and of course, mymy son-in-law, because my
daughter's Polly, so she has awife and a boyfriend, the kid's
father.
(30:31):
And he's like, Oh, you're beingtoo vocal about this stuff.
You're being too loud.
There's a lot of people aroundhere who are Trump supporters,
and it's really bad right now.
And I'm never gonna be silent.
I'm just not I wasn't born thatway.
I wasn't built that way.
Somebody like somebody has tobe.
I'm on that banned book list nowbecause of it.
They put me on that banned booklist because of it.
(30:53):
Amazing, dude.
That's a the first time it cameout, Jex Lane put it on her
site, and I was looking, and myname wasn't on it, and I was so
upset that my name wasn't on it.
And then the next time she putup a list, I was there and I was
like, I think 109, and I waslike, Yeah, finally.
The only thing that freaked meout though is that they had my
real name as well as both my pennames on there.
(31:14):
And that's when I realized I wasway too accessible on the
internet and I had to lock thatshit down.
I scrubbed myself from theinternet because I don't care.
Me personally, fuck it,whatever.
I've lived long enough on thisplanet, it's really not that big
a deal.
But my children and mygrandchildren are important to
me, so I wanted them not soaccessible, but me, God, every
(31:36):
given day, I'm just like, ugh,let's do this shit.
SPEAKER_00 (31:40):
Yep, yep, relatable, same.
Yeah, I wish I could rememberwhat the fuck it's called, but
there's another like band booklist that's literally called the
BL list.
Like, they don't know.
They don't know.
It's great.
I need to let me Google it.
(32:00):
I saw it on John Oliver.
Google it's the shit.
SPEAKER_01 (32:04):
It's great.
Actually, I was telling mydaughter the other day, thank
god for the Daily Show and forJohn Oliver.
It's the only way to palette anyof the shit that's going on
right now.
Yeah, it's the only way to getthrough it is to literally just
laugh about it.
SPEAKER_00 (32:20):
Yeah, I swear to god it exists.
SPEAKER_01 (32:22):
But they send it to me when you find it.
SPEAKER_00 (32:24):
Yeah, you need to learn Discord.
SPEAKER_01 (32:28):
I'm trying.
I thank God I have so manypeople who were are willing to
run it for me.
Yeah because my Discord for OnlyJames is so out of control now.
I go in there and I'm like, oh,like there's so many threads and
so many things, and I'm justlike, okay, this is
overwhelming.
And then I created the Discordfor the burned out muse, and
it's the same thing.
Now there's 700 people in there,there's eight million threads,
(32:51):
and I just go in there and I'mlike, oh, wrong room.
And I just leave because I getoverwhelmed so easily.
I thank God, like other peopleare in there just like
controlling the situation.
But I made this place forauthors, and then all these
authors and fans showed up, andI'm this is too much.
What?
I'm a thing, and people come toit.
It's like being field of dreams.
(33:11):
I was like, if you build it,they will come.
And then they came, and I waslike, nope, we're closed.
Yeah, sorry.
Everybody needs to go home.
But I'm happy because they dowriting sprints and they do all
kinds of cool stuff in there,and like it's good.
And I try to go in and do stufffor the podcast and for the
Patreon in there.
I wanted to see if because atone point I had actually planned
(33:32):
on doing a real interview, butthat never goes to plan because
I have absolutely no attentionspan whatsoever.
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
I don't either.
And if you ever want to do thisagain, I am fucking down.
SPEAKER_01 (33:46):
Oh, yeah, I will definitely be bringing you back
on.
Oh, thanks! Tell me about Churchof BL.
Tell me about what because yousay content creation, but what
does that entail for those?
SPEAKER_00 (33:56):
I don't have many subscribers.
Subscribe to my YouTube.
My main stuff is on Discord.
My Discord server is Feral.
We have live streams all thetime where we play visual novels
and uh BL stuff.
What's a visual novel?
What's a visual?
Oh, honey.
It's BL but interactive.
(34:17):
It's a game.
You can play gay boy games.
So it's like the pick your ownadventure books.
It's like that, but a game.
You're the main just the generalexample.
(34:39):
You would be the main boy, andthen you would have your love
interests, and you as the playercharacter, you get to pick what
you say, and what you saydetermines which love interest
you get, and then you can eitherget good endings or bad endings.
Um sometimes the bad endings arethe good endings.
This is a whole genre of things.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
You're never gonna get things done again.
I have Rex players and watch ithappen.
Yes! Oh my god.
Maybe I'll just learn Discord bywatching you.
unknown (35:16):
Fuck yeah!
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
But I play visual novels all the time.
That's a thing, it's a thing,and it's great to be the boy.
It's it's it's great, especiallyfrom a trans point of view.
It's an experience to get to bethe boy.
It's it's great.
It's a good time.
SPEAKER_01 (35:36):
Because of how I write, I'm always the boy,
right?
But it does change how Ivisualize things, yeah.
Which is so weird because I onceread something that said, I read
so much BL that I now experiencelike porn from the man's point
of view rather than a woman's.
Yes, and that's exactly how itis.
(35:57):
I like it, it has altered myviewpoint in so many things.
It's crazy.
And that's where I think thegender dysphoria comes in.
And I'm just like, wait aminute.
SPEAKER_00 (36:09):
There's a panel that I don't know if we're gonna have
it this year, but we had iteither last year or year before
last that somebody runs aboutgender and boys' love, and how a
lot of people, like a good chunkof people in the boys' love
community, have found theirgender through boys' love and
have found that I'm not a girl.
I'm not, and for X, Y, Z reason,and I relate incredibly too much
(36:32):
to gay men, and I relate so muchto the male experience that it's
my is this.
SPEAKER_01 (36:39):
One of my readers sent me a message the other day,
and he literally said, You writefrom a perspective of a gay man
so well, I wouldn't doubt youwere gay in your last life.
Yeah, and my first thought was,I feel like I'm gay in this one.
Yeah, I have an ex-wife and Ihave an ex-husband, and to me,
they were both the same mehsituation.
SPEAKER_00 (37:00):
I wouldn't recommend either if I'm being honest.
Dude, I have friends that areace, that are asexual, that are
the horniest people I've evermet in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (37:11):
That's you don't have that.
Like, yeah, yeah, I love sex.
I'm not a fan of sex with otherpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
Like, I always tell people I'm the best I've ever
had.
I have a wife, so I can't saythat too loud.
She understands me.
He knows they're kind of thebest they've ever had.
Yeah, no, like I like sex to anextent that I that's all I read
about.
But at the same time, I'm veryparticular about IRL stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
Okay, first off, I was never particular.
That's the problem.
I think that's because mydaughter makes fun of me all the
time because she's like, youwrite sex for a living, but you
haven't had sex in forever.
And listen, if you had theamount of sex I have, I'm
retired.
I'm retired, I'm benched.
She tired, she tired.
Like she's exhausted, she'sgood, she's fine, she's sad
enough.
But like at the same time, I Ihated the anxiety that always
(38:06):
came with sex, but I thinkthat's from the neurodivergent
part of my brain.
Same.
You know, and because I wasn'tdiagnosed until later in life, I
think things would have made alot more sense.
Yeah, but like there was no suchthing as autism when I was a
kid.
Same.
You were just weird.
Yep, you were just the weirdkid.
So she was just the weird girlwho cried in the bathtub at
parties for no reason.
Like I was like, not because Iwas overstimulated or
(38:28):
overwhelmed or anything, justbecause I was preaching to the
choir.
SPEAKER_00 (38:32):
Yeah.
In the 90s.
And in the 90s, girls didn'thave autism.
SPEAKER_01 (38:37):
So you didn't have autism, you didn't have ADHD
because they never tested any ofthose things on girls.
It was always purpoise.
Even when they all medicalresearch was for voice.
SPEAKER_00 (38:46):
Right.
Even when they did, it's I stilldidn't because I masked too
well.
And it's just we had no choice.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (38:54):
Oh my we had no choice but to mask.
Like we had no choice but tomask.
And I look at it now, and partof the reason that I was in EMDR
therapy for so long is because Iliterally had no emotions about
anything.
SPEAKER_00 (39:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
I had learned to just shut everything off to the
point where it didn't matterwhat you told me.
When my mom died, I was like,oh, moving on with my day,
because it was easier to just bewhatever everybody wanted you to
be.
Yeah, relatable.
Yeah.
And it's crazy because I see itnow in other people, and I'm
just wow.
Well, there's this one guy Ifollow on Instagram who is
(39:29):
basically, I can't remember whathis name is, but it's I think
Unmasked is in his title.
And when he's talking, he doesthe thing where his hands are
always moving, but he wasbasically telling people about
how he used to mask, and hesnapped that mask back into
place.
And it was so jarring to see howhe just behaved like everybody
(39:52):
else and spoke like everybodyelse and used the same slang and
the vernacular and everything.
And then when that mask is off,he's a completely different
person.
And people were like, Oh, if youcan do that, you're not
autistic.
No, wrong.
It was one of those momentsbecause it's so frustrating.
We just learn to be chameleons,we learn to be whatever we have
to be to make the situation ascomfortable for everyone else as
(40:15):
possible.
My mom used to say that all thetime.
You're such a little chamon.
Nobody realizes like who you arebecause of how you just blend in
with everybody.
I'm like, why do you think thatis?
SPEAKER_00 (40:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:26):
Boom.
SPEAKER_00 (40:27):
Let's just say my favorite character of yours is
Wyatt.
And I have mommy issues where hehas daddy issues.
And uh yes, yes, that that isme.
Relatable, Aaron.
SPEAKER_01 (40:41):
Yeah, I have daddy issues issues for sure when it
comes to my dad, it wasdefinitely children are
basically to be seen, not heard,suck it up, buttercup.
That's me and the world doesn'trevolve around you.
Like, not everything's aboutyou.
Just stand up to your bullies,they're gonna bully you forever.
You're such a coward, that kindof shit.
(41:02):
Yeah, no.
My dad was old school, he wasborn in 1928.
He was 50 when I was born.
Nice.
He was that guy.
He was the guy you had to likeshake their foot and duck when
they woke up.
Yeah, he would come up swinging.
But yeah, my dad didn't get meat all.
I was the baby of six.
My next oldest sibling was 11years older than me, and
(41:23):
everybody else was completelyneurotypical.
And then there was me.
Yeah.
And I had a vocabulary thatwould choke a horse at the age
of three.
I was gifted, but I was alsohorribly shy.
I was overly emotional.
I didn't understand.
I would ask questions thatpeople never wanted to hear the
child ask, especially when I wasin Lutheran school.
(41:44):
And I'd be like, that doesn'tmake sense.
I wasn't welcome to our therapysession.
It started an hour earlier.
SPEAKER_00 (41:49):
Yeah, yeah.
But boys love dicks.
I like those.
They're cool.
Dicks.
unknown (41:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:55):
I like when they touch.
I like them on other people.
I don't personally want one onme because gender reasons, but
uh, I like them on other people.
SPEAKER_01 (42:05):
If I'm not using one, I really don't have any
reason for it to be around.
SPEAKER_00 (42:09):
Yeah.
Them from afar.
Like I'm not feeling your D isfine.
It's just like I um I'm good.
I feel it's situational.
Yeah.
Close to being ace.
SPEAKER_01 (42:20):
Like I don't love vagina.
Yeah.
Did you ever see the movie EasyA with Emma Stone?
I've heard of it.
So it's one of my favoritemovies.
Okay, like it's so snarky, andshe delivers that sarcasm so
well.
But at one point, she's helpingher gay friend pretend he's not
gay.
So they're pretending to havesex in the bedroom.
So jumping on the bed togetherand making it sound like they're
(42:43):
doing it.
And at some point she gives himher underwear to make it like
more believable.
And he like makes this face thatshe's like, What do you think I
have down there?
I know what's with that face,you know?
Why are you looking at it likethat?
But I always laugh because I'malways like whenever it's like,
I it's a choice to be gay.
I'm like, Oh, then I've got somenews for you.
You are choosing to be straight.
(43:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You are choosing to be straightbecause only bisexual people
would think that it was a choicewhether they decided to like men
or women.
Yep.
I my child came out to me whenshe was, I don't know, maybe 12.
We were driving in the car andshe just said, How would you
feel if I wanted to date women?
I was like, okay.
(43:25):
I just kept driving and she'slike, That's it.
And I was like, What do you wantme to do?
And that's how it I don't carewho you date, just don't date a
dick.
It shouldn't be that big.
Oh my god.
Like, gender's a construct.
I don't really give a shitwhat's in people's pants.
Like it doesn't really matter tome.
I was like, Yeah, if you'retrying to rebel, you're gonna
have to pick a new way because Idon't care.
Like, I don't care.
It's not working.
So fantastic.
(43:46):
But she's been with her wife.
Like, they've met when they were11.
Oh, that's cute.
My daughter's gonna be 28 thisyear.
They've been together for a longtime.
My nephew met his wife when theywere 14, and he's in his 40s
now.
Yeah.
unknown (44:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:01):
My family, they just latch on to people and they
imprint like ducklings, andthat's a meanwhile, me, I've got
about seven to ten business dayswith anybody, and I'm like,
okay, you're getting on mynerves.
SPEAKER_00 (44:11):
It will happen if it needs to happen.
SPEAKER_01 (44:13):
My ex-wife was my best friend first.
So it felt like just a naturalprogression.
Yeah.
I definitely have to be friendswith somebody first because I
don't trust people.
Same.
I have massive trust issues.
So I need you to do aninternship before I offer the
position.
I need to know that you'rewilling to stick out my crazy
(44:36):
before I offer the full-timeposition because I'm not an easy
person to deal with.
I am fully aware.
I am a Virgo in every sense ofthe word.
Like I am very much a hot messin all aspects of my life.
But yeah, no, I definitely am anacquired taste, but I also am
very picky.
SPEAKER_00 (44:56):
It's good to be picky.
SPEAKER_01 (44:58):
Yeah, I think so.
One time my mom used to say, itwas an old quote from a black
and white star, Buster Keaton orCharlie Chaplin, where it was
like, I'd never want to be amember of a club that would have
me as a member.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
And that's how I feel about dating.
Oh my god.
Oh, you need such a standardtire.
That's why we go to Thairs.
Welcome to Therapy.
No, I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
Mentally avoiding with you and the audience.
Let's get together and talkabout fandom stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (45:24):
I feel like that goes hand in hand with the
panels on citrus colours.
Yep.
Because I think that it does gohand in hand.
Every week I get people who go,Oh my god, I totally agreed with
you the whole time, or I totallyget it.
Nobody ever says the stuff thatyou guys say.
And I think that's why, becausewe have no filter.
We just give our honest opinionon things.
SPEAKER_00 (45:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:49):
Well, if you ever want to come on and actually, if
there's anything you want topromote or you want to talk
about, like any books you wantto talk about or whatever, any
things you're reading orwhatever, you should come back
on with Shannon because I thinkyou and Shannon would get along
famously.
She's also got no filter.
Fuck yeah.
She is she is somebody who is.
She's a Sagittarius, I will tellyou that.
SPEAKER_00 (46:11):
I'm a cancer, if that helps at all.
SPEAKER_01 (46:14):
Oh, you guys will get along great.
Cancers and Sagittarius alwayslove each other so much.
Like my daughter, every time shehas a new friend, I'm like, a
cancer.
She's a Sagittarius.
SPEAKER_00 (46:25):
Me and my wife are both cancers.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (46:29):
That's a lot of feelings.
SPEAKER_00 (46:31):
A lot of emotions.
Wow.
But that's probably a goodthing.
No, we talk about fuckingeverything.
And it's it's amazing to justhave someone that you can just
communicate with and it's not abig fucking deal.
It isn't a huge ordeal to belike, hey, I want to talk about
this thing, and they're justlike, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (46:50):
And then we she like all your BL stuff?
SPEAKER_00 (46:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:54):
Fujoshi.
So oh, then you should bring heron too.
Yeah, yeah.
That sounded way creepier than Imeant it to.
No, it's fine.
I think that would beinteresting.
But all right, I will let yougo.
I want to do this again.
I definitely want to do thisagain.
It's so much fun.
I'll bring Shannon on.
You can bring your wife.
(47:15):
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you so much for putting upwith this mess.
SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
Dude, thank you.
Email me.
SPEAKER_01 (47:24):
Yeah.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (47:26):
Bye.
Hey everybody, this is a special episode of the
Feral Fandoms Podcast.
I am here solo without Shannon.
She had a childcare crisis.
We are here to break down allkinds of fandom stuff revolving
around BL, which is greatbecause Shannon doesn't know
anything about BL and I'm dyingto talk to somebody about it.
Welcome!
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Hello.
Tell everybody who you are.
I'm Peachy.
I am the guest slash sponsor,director, guest relations
director for CitrusCon, a boys'love virtual 18 convention.
And I also run something calledthe Church of BL, which is my
own content creation stuff whereI talk about debauchery and
(00:53):
things like all of our favoritethings.
Love is my entire brand.
Yeah, so I've read everythingthat Only's ever written.
I'm kind of a simp.
I have all of the audiobooks.
(01:15):
Liam DeCosmo is a saint.
Isn't he amazing?
So it's it's really fun runninga convention that you give a
shit about because BL is myblood.
It is what I'm made up of.
And uh having a con for that,and that's like a good 30-40% of
my life now.
SPEAKER_01 (01:33):
So it's so much fun.
Yeah, I had such a blast atCitrus Con.
What was your gateway BL?
What was the first BL you everwatched?
SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
Oh god.
The gateway drug was probablyshipping in Inuyasha when I was
a young'un.
Um I am a piece of absolutegarbage.
So I would ship like InuyashaShoshomaru or Inuyasha and Koga.
Um and that just grew intoGoogling things that I shouldn't
(02:09):
be Googling at like 14.
And then that kind of ended upgoing towards like Ginger
Romantica and Gravitation, SekaiChi Hatsukoi, like all of the
the the classics.
I was there with the Yowiepaddle.
SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
Yeah.
How old do you think you werewhen you started getting into
BL?
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Like 14 or 15.
I won't say what year that wasbecause we have an age gap and I
don't want you to think aboutit.
An age gap?
Yeah.
You're much older.
You're my wife's age, if thathelps.
Oh.
SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
Would you like much older women?
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
That's a twiddle's hair.
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
A little bit of a gap.
Yeah, you're definitely youngerthan me because I can't even
remember seeing anything BLrelated as a child.
Like, I don't even think I metsomebody who was out of the
closet until I was like 19.
It wasn't now all of my friendsare gay, so I don't even
recognize straight peopleanymore.
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
I I've Except for the ones in my family.
I feel like I find my peoplelike all of our friends are all
like neurodivergent.
SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Yep, they're all neurodivergent and they're all
gay.
And so when I see straight,neurotypical people, I don't
know how to function.
I would say I was reading BLlong before I started watching
BL.
I was definitely into Lazen andstuff later, but I don't even
remember the first ship Istarted reading AO3,
(03:40):
fanfiction.net.
But the first BL I watched thatwasn't a common US show was Kin
Porsche.
Not late to the game I was agood game.
SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
That is that's a good one.
I was in the game before StuffLesen and Webtoon and stuff like
that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
You were naming some stuff that I was like, oh wow.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
I didn't really get on AO3 until probably COVID,
honestly.
Before COVID, I wasn't reallybig on fanfiction until like
COVID ruined me.
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
So yeah, I found fanfiction when my mom was sick.
When my mom was in hospice, Istumbled onto of all things the
most embarrassing thing in theworld.
Glee fanfiction.
About that in in other episodes.
Yeah, that's when I think Istumbled into AO3 specifically.
Yeah.
But yeah.
I remember fanfiction.net.
(04:41):
They were never as big.
They're not AO3.
AO3 just really exploded andjust it had longevity.
And I think that was probablybecause of Tumblr.
SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Yeah.
AO3's gonna be at the con.
Is it?
Yeah.
I think I can say that becauseI'm talking to them right now.
But uh if not, you guys didn'thear anything.
You heard nothing.
You heard nothing.
You can't be disappointed to us.
But I have connections with thepeople that run AO3, and uh
they're maybe possibly going todo a panel this year.
(05:12):
So that's cool.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
I think above all the things that really made me
feel like an accomplishedauthor, having people write fan
fiction and putting it on AO3was like my oh my god moment.
SPEAKER_00 (05:27):
I need to find this.
SPEAKER_01 (05:30):
It's there.
There's quite a few of them.
We're not talking like Destiolevels of love, but there's way
more than a little tiny authorlike me ever thought there would
be.
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
That's amazing.
I need to not only read this butwrite it.
Why have I not done thisalready?
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
I don't read it because I don't want it to
influence like my own storylinesbecause sometimes it's the same
reason I don't read gay romanceanymore, is because I'm like,
wow, they're way better at thisthan I am.
It gets in my head too much.
But I do look at it and oh look,look at that.
I made that.
And then Mulvaney Media, thatfan account that runs like a lot
(06:05):
of stuff.
She'll always put up whensomebody does a new fanfiction,
they'll send it to her andshe'll put it up on her account.
And I'm like, that's so cool.
That's yeah.
Somebody asked me, they're like,Oh my god, are you okay with us
writing fanfiction about yourstuff?
I'm like, please, please writefanfic.
Yes, don't make money off of it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:23):
Yeah, that is the one downside.
SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
Only because my entertainment attorney would
shoot me in the face.
I don't care.
My attorneys do, but I don'tgive a shit.
God, what are you watching rightnow?
Are you watching anything?
Are you reading anything?
What's what do you what's good?
What's good?
I'm really into Monhua rightnow.
Hurrying.
Somebody's been sending me likerecs, and I have not had a
chance.
I've between the podcast andwriting and the stupid 13 nights
(06:47):
of Halloween debacle that I'mgoing through that I thought was
gonna be a good idea, is just somuch work.
Oh, but yeah, somebody keepssending me all these good recs,
and I'm like, I don't have time,but I want to read them.
I'm like, I'm so behind on allthe good stuff coming out.
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
I'm just gonna go through my recents on lessons.
Oh my god, one of my favoriteauthors is called Brothers
Without a Tomorrow.
And they do, they're Korean,they do Manhua, and literally
everything they've ever writtenis fantastic and perfect and
amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
Give me titles.
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
Smyrna Capri is one.
Taming the Tiger is my favorite.
Zero is a newer one, but there'ssome stuff going on with that
one where we're not entirelycertain if it's gonna get
finished.
So I'm kind of upset.
Bloodlink is really good.
One that you in particular wouldlike based off of my parasocial
(07:42):
relationship with you throughyour books is Mania.
Oh, yeah, that sounds right up.
You would definitely like Mania.
It's gangsters and it actuallysounds familiar.
If you're into Monwa, you mighthave seen it.
Yeah.
It's it's very pretty, twistedending.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
I started with all of the typical Manoir, like Love
is an illusion and the kind oftamer ones.
Then I read BJ Alex, which wasso toxic.
Oh, yeah, and yet I could notput it down.
Yeah, could not put it down.
I was obsessed with it.
I gave up on Jinx like seasontwo.
(08:27):
Yeah.
I know he was so mean.
I normally I can handle it, butI'm just like, I don't know.
He was so physically mean.
I'm waiting a little harder.
SPEAKER_00 (08:40):
I'm waiting for it to be done because I like the
redemption arc because that'swhere they're at right now is
redeeming his bullshit.
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Well, and that's exactly what happened with BJ
Alex.
Yeah, is there always thatturning point, and I just kept
reading because I was like, atsome point it's gonna turn and
he's gonna turn into a totalsimp.
And I just can't get there.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
My favorite in BJ Alex is the other ship.
The other ship, the other shipand BJ Alex.
They're my favorite.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
I I love it.
100 it's second ship syndromefor sure.
And sometimes I wonder, becauseI'm obviously as an author, I
think about it all the time.
I'm like, how is it that we endup shipping the second couple so
much harder than the first in alot of series?
And like, why did the secondcouple go so hard if they
weren't the main couple?
(09:26):
You know what I mean?
Why didn't she develop the storyor he and then just go, you know
what?
This story is way more juicy inthe new Chinese BL, ABO Desire.
First off, I have not read ABODesire, I only watched it.
And the guy I was watching itwith kept calling him the
(09:47):
psychotic twink.
I've all seen one episode.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
I'm moving off of like one episode of what I've
seen.
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
I need to commit to it.
Yeah.
When I say this kid is unhinged,he's an enigma, which is fairly
common.
So I don't think I'm giving awayany spoilers.
Common knowledge, I should say.
But yeah, he's like an enigma,and he ends up impregnating an
alpha who does not realize he'san enigma.
It's very toxic, it's a very oldschool BL.
(10:18):
Like the second couple, theirstory is so much more juicy.
He's an omega who's takinghormones to pretend to be a
beta.
He's in love with his boss whohates omegas.
His boss is in love with him,but thinks he's a beta.
And it's just like it's so muchmore juicy, but somehow we get
16 episodes of the main couplewhose story gets resolved in ep
(10:38):
nine.
And I'm just like, who cares?
Move this story, it is so muchjuicier.
Why don't we call me scraps?
SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
I was the same way with BJ Alex because I reread
stuff all the time, and I'lljust go back to only their
episodes, only their chapters,especially their extras, the
stuff that happened after theManhua is quote unquote done.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
Those are the best little side stories and the
little like extras.
SPEAKER_00 (11:04):
So good.
It's so fucking good.
Healthy, so good.
Like they had a reasonablyrealistic BDSM relationship.
They really did.
It wasn't super crazy toxicawful, which I like super crazy
toxic awful.
SPEAKER_01 (11:20):
I am a different person when I'm reading
fanfiction and when I'm readingany kind of manwall or manga.
I'm a different person.
I don't write it, but my god, doI mainline it?
I don't know why, but I love itso much.
It's so good.
Yeah, it's juicy.
It's so good.
SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
It's good shit.
SPEAKER_01 (11:39):
Trying to see some of the titles that I've
finished.
Do you want toxic monwan?
Hit me with all of it.
I'm down for all of it.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
Red Mansion.
Red Mansion is like almost likeyou need to be really
disconnected from the couple inorder to enjoy it because it's
that toxic.
It's that fucked up.
It's like Stockholm Syndromemeets general abuser, like
(12:11):
physically abused.
It's very, very, very, verydark.
Red Mansion is completed andit's really good.
It's very toxic.
Please don't at me like it's No,don't worry.
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
I don't hold any listen.
When I tell you the stuff that Ihave read, it's funny because I
sound like I'm being real, Idon't know, holier than thou
when it comes to say jinx, butnot really.
Because right now, my biggest,my favorite story I'm reading
right now is cash or credit.
Okay.
Have you checked that one out?
Oh my god.
(12:43):
Okay, so this kid gets thrown injail for I want to say hacking.
Yeah, he's a hacker.
He gets thrown in jail andbasically starts getting essayed
by this guard.
Okay.
Everybody's terrified of him,including the warden.
And he basically gets to dowhatever he wants in the prison.
(13:05):
But it turns out that he's likea mafia guy.
And he's after the kid inparticular because he ripped him
off.
But the kid doesn't know it.
He only knows him by his name.
So he's in there.
Oh, I'm going to basically makethis kid's life miserable and
then I'm going to kill him.
Only they're both falling inlove with each other.
(13:27):
So the warden's son is also aguard, and he's trying to
basically who I for some reason,somehow the kid and him have met
before, and he for the kid, butthe kid isn't into him.
But he thinks that he like hecan somehow get him away from
the guard's name is Michael.
He can get him away fromMichael, and then the kid will
be like grateful.
(13:47):
So he's trying to get the kid tosell out Michael, and he is
trying to play both of them sothat he doesn't basically end up
dead by one side or the other.
And it's just so juicy and it isso wrong on every level, but
it's just so good.
I'm really into mafia stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
So a lot of the gangster mafia type things that
I'm into are very, very toxic.
When you were talking about thatone, that made me think of Legs
That Won't Walk is a really goodone.
I have the Oh, it's so good.
SPEAKER_01 (14:18):
Sorry, I haven't read it.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
I haven't seen it with my eyeballs.
Some way.
That one also kind of has likesecond ship syndrome.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:32):
It's so hard.
What else did I read that wastoxic?
Painters of the Night is one ofmy absolute favorite.
I bought that the minute itended.
I have all of the merch.
I have everything.
I've only spent$200 just on themerch for that stuff.
The one I write like real uhright now that just started
season two was is it silk oversteel?
Steel over silk?
Have you silk silk silk?
SPEAKER_00 (14:53):
We'll get it eventually.
Yes, very good.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
It's so good.
And I was reading the extras,and the author said that they
were going to start the seriesas season two.
Like they were gonna start itwith them being toxic and then
falling in love, but then forsome reason they decided that it
would be better for them to fallfor each other and then have him
be like betray him at the end,and then have season two just be
(15:20):
the whole revenge arc.
And I was like, oh, that's sogood.
That's so good.
Because it makes it so muchjuicier now.
It's just so good, it's so toxicand so wrong.
But I love a good period piece.
I love that.
I don't know what I'm watchingright now.
No.
Oh my god.
(15:40):
Okay.
Ty, Ty Biel, it's Demundi, whichusually I used to be hit or
miss.
I'm not gonna lie.
I love Z and Nanu.
They're very cute, they're verysweet, they're adorable in real
life.
They're good.
I could not get through the nextprints.
It was a little too cheesy forme.
I'm not a fairy tale person.
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:02):
But then they came out with they have all their new
couples in shows now.
Thomas and Kang, I believe.
They did your sky.
Very cute, but very addictive.
The whole thing, sugar in yourmouth kind of stuff.
It just there wasn't a sadmoment to be found in it.
It was just all puppies andunicorns the whole way through.
(16:25):
Very cute.
I call it my palate cleanserafter I get through a really
toxic one.
I'll go back and I'll watchthat.
Yeah.
But then they just came out withKim Jiro, which is this kid has
a karmic curse put on him, andyou don't really know why.
Uh-huh.
But basically, since he was alittle kid, they've been trying
to have this curse lifted, andhe's going to die on his 21st
(16:47):
birthday.
So the mom ends up dying becauseof the curse, and then the dad
becomes a Buddhist monk tryingto atone for his son's karma.
And he becomes friends with thiskid.
They go to the kid's village,and he starts falling in love
with the village priest, who is100% so fucking hot.
(17:14):
He's so beautiful.
And the acting is breathtaking.
The special effects are amazing.
It's so good.
I was shocked that Dumundy putthis out.
That's how good it was.
And not because they producenecessarily bad stuff, but in
the past they've produced mehstuff, real middle of the road.
Not great, not bad.
(17:34):
And a lot of toxic storylinesthat aren't the stuff that could
have been like fixed with oneconversation last 12 episodes.
I can't stand that shit.
SPEAKER_00 (17:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:44):
Because it's not realistic.
We all know that if somebody didsomething to you, you're gonna
go to them and just be like,what the fuck is your problem?
Oh, I saw you kiss somebody.
I'm not gonna talk to you aboutit for four episodes.
No, you're storming into thatrestaurant, you're gonna be
like, What the fuck is going on?
Nobody is that well adjusted ornon-well adjusted that they're
just gonna let it fester.
Not anymore.
Maybe back in the 80s, but notnow.
(18:06):
So that stuff drives me nuts.
But yeah, every episode isbetween an hour and two hours
long.
Jesus.
And it never feels like that.
Every time the episode ends, I'mlike, no.
I love Vincenzo.
Oh my god, I love Vincenzo.
I want a season two so badly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
I'm waiting for an inspo for Park.
Really?
SPEAKER_01 (18:29):
Oh much sense.
I loved him so much in Vincenzo,and I was so sad when it ended
that I literally used him as myinspo for park.
That's amazing.
He's so beautiful.
Though the one who plays thepsycho, the really hot psycho
that was.
He used to be got seven, Ithink.
SPEAKER_00 (18:45):
No, his group.
Oh my god, I wish he was in gotseven.
That would have been amazing.
Oh my god, he's got too muchpower.
I can't think of his group, butlike he's fucking beautiful.
SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
Yeah.
What the fuck up?
I was like, tell me you're notlying to me, right?
Oh my god.
I saw the announcement.
I literally started sending itto everybody I know who watches
Ben Chen.
So I was like, he's getting aBL.
Oh my god, our dreams are comingtrue.
SPEAKER_00 (19:11):
Korean BL is a thing.
I think I just haven't watchedenough of it because the ones
that I have watched just aren'tmy vibe.
Like they're a little toosquishy for me.
SPEAKER_01 (19:23):
I will say all of the BLs that have been my
favorite have usually beenKorean.
But like for different reasons.
I love semantic error.
Yeah.
Because one, I read it first.
Right.
I anger the BL gods.
I'm sorry.
Something just flew off myshelf.
(19:43):
Jesus Christ.
I am alone in my room right now.
Something just blew off myshelf.
Sorry.
Okay.
But yeah, because I loved themain leads.
I thought they were so cute.
And I just liked theirbehind-the-scenes stuff.
And I think that's thatinfluenced it heavily.
(20:04):
But Ballboy Taxics is anotherone that is very cute and
fluffy, and it's got the sizedifference that I just can't get
enough of.
But this one had sex.
It had kisses that were so good.
I was like, do you guys havesomething going on?
Right.
Because the chemistry waschemistrying.
(20:27):
Trying to think of, yeah.
Secret relationships was juicy.
Really juicy.
And that was Korean.
But yeah, they are usually notheavy.
I find them, like I said, to begood palette cleansers, like in
between.
I feel the same way about GMM TVshows.
Yeah.
I will say that they're gettingthe acting.
(20:48):
I don't know what they did tothose boys.
They put them through some kindof machine.
Now all of a sudden they allknow how to kiss.
Now all of a sudden, theiracting is actually pretty
top-notch.
Yeah.
Their storylines are gettingbetter.
The directing is getting better.
They've gotten far away from thestupid, traditional, like old
school stuff that they used todo where you were just like,
(21:10):
this is not, this is abusive.
Yeah.
This isn't even sexy.
It's just bad sex and abuse.
SPEAKER_00 (21:17):
Oh, we're gonna figure out if we're gonna be
friends or not.
Do you like Thorn type?
Did I like it?
SPEAKER_01 (21:24):
It was the second BL I ever watched.
Put it this way, I watched itmore than once.
I liked their chemistry and Iliked the premise in that I
think it was actually realisticin that I think a lot of people
(21:47):
who claim they hate gays havesome unresolved sexual interest
that they haven't really tappedinto.
Because homophobe is gonna belike, you know what?
I'll let you make that.
I'll let you hit it from theback as an apology.
(22:08):
As an apology.
That would be my go-to.
SPEAKER_00 (22:11):
I need to give it another shot.
The vendetta against it.
It's my least favorite.
I just want to hug me.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
Like I will tell you that I would never in a million
years recommend it as a BL.
If somebody was like, oh, I needa BL to watch, it it wouldn't
even be on my radar.
Yeah.
I feel a lot, I would feel thatway about a lot of her work,
though, to be honest.
You know what I mean?
Like Love in the Air.
Again, I will say about Love inthe Air that the other than two
(22:46):
points, it was a very realisticdom-sub relationship, with the
exception of one, he didn't tellthem they were in a dom-sub
relationship.
Okay.
Two, this kid had no clue, likethat he was being manipulated.
And you don't really know howdeep the manipulation goes until
(23:08):
the end of the series, likeliterally the last episode.
You realize that he set this upfrom the very beginning.
Again, side couple syndrome,like the second couple's story
was more interesting, but alsoit was way more.
She has a habit of doing this.
She does things that are supertoxic, but she somehow also
(23:29):
makes the person doing the toxicbehavior just redeemable enough.
Yeah.
To where you want to give themthe benefit of the doubt.
It is the epitome of theintimate partner violence
relationship where you're like,I hate that one thing, but
there's all these other things.
And that's how they keep you.
(23:51):
That's how they keep you.
But unfortunately, all of herbooks are that way.
Love see, love in the air.
Everything she does just hasthis toxic undertone to it, to
the point where even she is nowgoing back and fixing stuff in
her stories because she'srealizing the backlash, like
calling the bottom wife, stufflike that.
(24:14):
As soon as they saw theinternational backlash from
that, they literally went backin and changed the subtitles.
Yeah.
Because I think they're nowrealizing that it's gotten so
much bigger than theyanticipated it would.
It's gone so global.
It's just like K-pop.
Like it's now far outside ofKorea.
And international fans are lesstolerant of things that some
(24:40):
people just say, oh, it'scultural.
And they just don't tolerate it.
And it's not even just Americanssticking their nose in things.
It's everywhere.
Everybody is saying, no, that'snot right.
And so they have to like we haveto cater to our fans.
We have to keep that going.
And we plan on talking aboutthis more in the podcast because
(25:01):
Shannon doesn't really see howthey run like TI BL ships.
SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
And how they get you to ship the actors together, not
the roles.
I wanted to talk about it on thepodcast because when you're
talking to authors, it's likeit's that parasocial
relationship.
And it's crazy what people arewilling to ride out with you if
they're like, no, we're friends.
And I genuinely I call myreaders fans now because that
(25:28):
it's the feral fandoms podcast.
But I never liked calling themfans before.
I always called them my readersbecause I felt like fans makes
it seem like you're up here andthey're down here.
And that's just not something Iever want to think about because
honestly, I'm such a normalperson that every day I wake up
(25:49):
and I'm like, I still can'tbelieve people read my books.
You know what I mean?
I I get up, I get dressed, I sitdown with my coffee, and I just
do my job.
And it's just, but people arejust, oh my God, I can't believe
I'm meeting you and it's notthat big a deal.
SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
The first time we ever talked, I was exactly like
that.
Like, I go back and I look atthe replay of our panel from
Last Citrus Con, and I'm sittingthere like- Oh, crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (26:14):
I was so worried.
I swear to God, I was soworried.
I was like, what if I saysomething stupid?
What if I do something stupid?
What if I don't know enoughabout the source material to
actually provide any kind ofconversation?
Are the source material?
And Shannon will want to talkabout my books on the podcast,
and I'm like, that's not whywe're here.
Anyway.
That's not why we're here.
But what you do, and it doesn'tmatter.
(26:36):
That's not because I don't know.
It's one of those things whereI'm both an attention whore, but
also can't handle compliments.
I get that.
I want people to like me, but Idon't want them to tell me they
like me.
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
Yeah.
I want to make stuff.
I want you to like it, but atthe same time, please don't
compliment me because I don't doanything else.
SPEAKER_01 (26:57):
That's exactly like my therapist would have a field
day with that.
SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
Right after this.
SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
What's funny is I remember telling my therapist
when I dream, I don't dreamabout anything that has to do
with myself.
Yeah.
When I'm always somebody else,I'm a different person.
And I'm basically watchingthings happen to these people.
And she goes, even in yourdreams, you're not the center.
It's like, damn.
That was hard.
(27:23):
God damn.
Well shit.
To know that.
Yeah.
It was like my other therapisttelling me, you make friends
with your therapist so you don'thave to do any work.
That's just mean.
SPEAKER_00 (27:37):
That's just mean.
SPEAKER_01 (27:38):
Then I got shipped off EMDR therapy.
unknown (27:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:41):
Which I just graduated from.
I have three therapists, so I'mright there with you.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
Two group therapy.
When I finished EMDR therapy,she's like, I have the name of
some other therapist that I wantyou to see.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Whoa, whoa.
You said we were done.
She's like, no, no, I said wewere done.
You and me.
Now I think you need talktherapy.
I think I talk enough.
SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
My books are my talk therapy.
Thank you.
I just take it out on mycharacters.
SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
Poor babies.
My poor babies.
We love them.
unknown (28:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
Lynn, you'll like the newsletter thing that's
happening right now.
Oh.
Because my 13 nights ofHalloween is basically I'm doing
like a couple story every day orevery other day, depending on
what else I'm doing in thenewsletter that day.
But basically, we're doing abunch of sales, and I'm doing
stories of all the couples at aparty that Thomas is throwing
called The Villains ofVigilantes Gala.
(28:39):
And it's basically all of mycharacters together in one room
hunting down one specific personthat people have been waiting to
get killed off for years.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
That's great.
Your Patreon.
SPEAKER_01 (28:54):
I need to join your Patreon just so I can like this
will be on the Patreon for thepodcast, but I'll send you the
link so you can watch itwhenever you want.
But also, I'll give you amembership to the Patreon.
You don't have to fuck up.
As long as you have it, it'sfine.
We're friends, girl.
SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
Actually, I didn't even ask your pronouns to them,
but I'm totally I'm fluid.
It's fine.
Was she her?
Maybe.
It is what it is.
SPEAKER_01 (29:23):
Anytime somebody asks me my pronouns, I stumble.
You know what I mean?
Because I'm just she her,because I always have, because
that just seems like that's thecase.
But then some days I don'treally know that actually is.
Yeah.
But you know what?
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
I've got enough to unpack it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Put that on a little shelf fornow.
Unpacking to understand that Iwas a they them.
Like it took a lot of therapyand a lot of talking and
thinking about things that youdon't want to think about.
And yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:50):
And it's just I have grandkids now.
And I hate when people try tolike gender them in a way my my
my grandsons love.
Butterflies.
They love princess stuff.
They love, and I'm like, yeah,buy them the purple unicorn
pajamas.
Buy them the and thank God mydaughter and her wife are like
obviously just fuck yeah, putthem in a P2.
(30:11):
I don't care.
But other people, because we'rein North Carolina, and there's
just that, oh well, you wouldn'tlet them wear that, would you?
Yeah, yeah, fuck off.
Eat shit.
Eat shit.
And honestly, I've gotten to apoint where I don't even have a
filter about it anymore becauseI just don't care.
I'm just like, and of course, mymy son-in-law, because my
daughter's Polly, so she has awife and a boyfriend, the kid's
father.
(30:31):
And he's like, Oh, you're beingtoo vocal about this stuff.
You're being too loud.
There's a lot of people aroundhere who are Trump supporters,
and it's really bad right now.
And I'm never gonna be silent.
I'm just not I wasn't born thatway.
I wasn't built that way.
Somebody like somebody has tobe.
I'm on that banned book list nowbecause of it.
They put me on that banned booklist because of it.
(30:53):
Amazing, dude.
That's a the first time it cameout, Jex Lane put it on her
site, and I was looking, and myname wasn't on it, and I was so
upset that my name wasn't on it.
And then the next time she putup a list, I was there and I was
like, I think 109, and I waslike, Yeah, finally.
The only thing that freaked meout though is that they had my
real name as well as both my pennames on there.
(31:14):
And that's when I realized I wasway too accessible on the
internet and I had to lock thatshit down.
I scrubbed myself from theinternet because I don't care.
Me personally, fuck it,whatever.
I've lived long enough on thisplanet, it's really not that big
a deal.
But my children and mygrandchildren are important to
me, so I wanted them not soaccessible, but me, God, every
(31:36):
given day, I'm just like, ugh,let's do this shit.
SPEAKER_00 (31:40):
Yep, yep, relatable, same.
Yeah, I wish I could rememberwhat the fuck it's called, but
there's another like band booklist that's literally called the
BL list.
Like, they don't know.
They don't know.
It's great.
I need to let me Google it.
(32:00):
I saw it on John Oliver.
Google it's the shit.
SPEAKER_01 (32:04):
It's great.
Actually, I was telling mydaughter the other day, thank
god for the Daily Show and forJohn Oliver.
It's the only way to palette anyof the shit that's going on
right now.
Yeah, it's the only way to getthrough it is to literally just
laugh about it.
SPEAKER_00 (32:20):
Yeah, I swear to god it exists.
SPEAKER_01 (32:22):
But they send it to me when you find it.
SPEAKER_00 (32:24):
Yeah, you need to learn Discord.
SPEAKER_01 (32:28):
I'm trying.
I thank God I have so manypeople who were are willing to
run it for me.
Yeah because my Discord for OnlyJames is so out of control now.
I go in there and I'm like, oh,like there's so many threads and
so many things, and I'm justlike, okay, this is
overwhelming.
And then I created the Discordfor the burned out muse, and
it's the same thing.
Now there's 700 people in there,there's eight million threads,
(32:51):
and I just go in there and I'mlike, oh, wrong room.
And I just leave because I getoverwhelmed so easily.
I thank God, like other peopleare in there just like
controlling the situation.
But I made this place forauthors, and then all these
authors and fans showed up, andI'm this is too much.
What?
I'm a thing, and people come toit.
It's like being field of dreams.
(33:11):
I was like, if you build it,they will come.
And then they came, and I waslike, nope, we're closed.
Yeah, sorry.
Everybody needs to go home.
But I'm happy because they dowriting sprints and they do all
kinds of cool stuff in there,and like it's good.
And I try to go in and do stufffor the podcast and for the
Patreon in there.
I wanted to see if because atone point I had actually planned
(33:32):
on doing a real interview, butthat never goes to plan because
I have absolutely no attentionspan whatsoever.
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
I don't either.
And if you ever want to do thisagain, I am fucking down.
SPEAKER_01 (33:46):
Oh, yeah, I will definitely be bringing you back
on.
Oh, thanks! Tell me about Churchof BL.
Tell me about what because yousay content creation, but what
does that entail for those?
SPEAKER_00 (33:56):
I don't have many subscribers.
Subscribe to my YouTube.
My main stuff is on Discord.
My Discord server is Feral.
We have live streams all thetime where we play visual novels
and uh BL stuff.
What's a visual novel?
What's a visual?
Oh, honey.
It's BL but interactive.
(34:17):
It's a game.
You can play gay boy games.
So it's like the pick your ownadventure books.
It's like that, but a game.
You're the main just the generalexample.
(34:39):
You would be the main boy, andthen you would have your love
interests, and you as the playercharacter, you get to pick what
you say, and what you saydetermines which love interest
you get, and then you can eitherget good endings or bad endings.
Um sometimes the bad endings arethe good endings.
This is a whole genre of things.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
You're never gonna get things done again.
I have Rex players and watch ithappen.
Yes! Oh my god.
Maybe I'll just learn Discord bywatching you.
unknown (35:16):
Fuck yeah!
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
But I play visual novels all the time.
That's a thing, it's a thing,and it's great to be the boy.
It's it's it's great, especiallyfrom a trans point of view.
It's an experience to get to bethe boy.
It's it's great.
It's a good time.
SPEAKER_01 (35:36):
Because of how I write, I'm always the boy,
right?
But it does change how Ivisualize things, yeah.
Which is so weird because I onceread something that said, I read
so much BL that I now experiencelike porn from the man's point
of view rather than a woman's.
Yes, and that's exactly how itis.
(35:57):
I like it, it has altered myviewpoint in so many things.
It's crazy.
And that's where I think thegender dysphoria comes in.
And I'm just like, wait aminute.
SPEAKER_00 (36:09):
There's a panel that I don't know if we're gonna have
it this year, but we had iteither last year or year before
last that somebody runs aboutgender and boys' love, and how a
lot of people, like a good chunkof people in the boys' love
community, have found theirgender through boys' love and
have found that I'm not a girl.
I'm not, and for X, Y, Z reason,and I relate incredibly too much
(36:32):
to gay men, and I relate so muchto the male experience that it's
my is this.
SPEAKER_01 (36:39):
One of my readers sent me a message the other day,
and he literally said, You writefrom a perspective of a gay man
so well, I wouldn't doubt youwere gay in your last life.
Yeah, and my first thought was,I feel like I'm gay in this one.
Yeah, I have an ex-wife and Ihave an ex-husband, and to me,
they were both the same mehsituation.
SPEAKER_00 (37:00):
I wouldn't recommend either if I'm being honest.
Dude, I have friends that areace, that are asexual, that are
the horniest people I've evermet in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (37:11):
That's you don't have that.
Like, yeah, yeah, I love sex.
I'm not a fan of sex with otherpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
Like, I always tell people I'm the best I've ever
had.
I have a wife, so I can't saythat too loud.
She understands me.
He knows they're kind of thebest they've ever had.
Yeah, no, like I like sex to anextent that I that's all I read
about.
But at the same time, I'm veryparticular about IRL stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
Okay, first off, I was never particular.
That's the problem.
I think that's because mydaughter makes fun of me all the
time because she's like, youwrite sex for a living, but you
haven't had sex in forever.
And listen, if you had theamount of sex I have, I'm
retired.
I'm retired, I'm benched.
She tired, she tired.
Like she's exhausted, she'sgood, she's fine, she's sad
enough.
But like at the same time, I Ihated the anxiety that always
(38:06):
came with sex, but I thinkthat's from the neurodivergent
part of my brain.
Same.
You know, and because I wasn'tdiagnosed until later in life, I
think things would have made alot more sense.
Yeah, but like there was no suchthing as autism when I was a
kid.
Same.
You were just weird.
Yep, you were just the weirdkid.
So she was just the weird girlwho cried in the bathtub at
parties for no reason.
Like I was like, not because Iwas overstimulated or
(38:28):
overwhelmed or anything, justbecause I was preaching to the
choir.
SPEAKER_00 (38:32):
Yeah.
In the 90s.
And in the 90s, girls didn'thave autism.
SPEAKER_01 (38:37):
So you didn't have autism, you didn't have ADHD
because they never tested any ofthose things on girls.
It was always purpoise.
Even when they all medicalresearch was for voice.
SPEAKER_00 (38:46):
Right.
Even when they did, it's I stilldidn't because I masked too
well.
And it's just we had no choice.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (38:54):
Oh my we had no choice but to mask.
Like we had no choice but tomask.
And I look at it now, and partof the reason that I was in EMDR
therapy for so long is because Iliterally had no emotions about
anything.
SPEAKER_00 (39:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
I had learned to just shut everything off to the
point where it didn't matterwhat you told me.
When my mom died, I was like,oh, moving on with my day,
because it was easier to just bewhatever everybody wanted you to
be.
Yeah, relatable.
Yeah.
And it's crazy because I see itnow in other people, and I'm
just wow.
Well, there's this one guy Ifollow on Instagram who is
(39:29):
basically, I can't remember whathis name is, but it's I think
Unmasked is in his title.
And when he's talking, he doesthe thing where his hands are
always moving, but he wasbasically telling people about
how he used to mask, and hesnapped that mask back into
place.
And it was so jarring to see howhe just behaved like everybody
(39:52):
else and spoke like everybodyelse and used the same slang and
the vernacular and everything.
And then when that mask is off,he's a completely different
person.
And people were like, Oh, if youcan do that, you're not
autistic.
No, wrong.
It was one of those momentsbecause it's so frustrating.
We just learn to be chameleons,we learn to be whatever we have
to be to make the situation ascomfortable for everyone else as
(40:15):
possible.
My mom used to say that all thetime.
You're such a little chamon.
Nobody realizes like who you arebecause of how you just blend in
with everybody.
I'm like, why do you think thatis?
SPEAKER_00 (40:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:26):
Boom.
SPEAKER_00 (40:27):
Let's just say my favorite character of yours is
Wyatt.
And I have mommy issues where hehas daddy issues.
And uh yes, yes, that that isme.
Relatable, Aaron.
SPEAKER_01 (40:41):
Yeah, I have daddy issues issues for sure when it
comes to my dad, it wasdefinitely children are
basically to be seen, not heard,suck it up, buttercup.
That's me and the world doesn'trevolve around you.
Like, not everything's aboutyou.
Just stand up to your bullies,they're gonna bully you forever.
You're such a coward, that kindof shit.
(41:02):
Yeah, no.
My dad was old school, he wasborn in 1928.
He was 50 when I was born.
Nice.
He was that guy.
He was the guy you had to likeshake their foot and duck when
they woke up.
Yeah, he would come up swinging.
But yeah, my dad didn't get meat all.
I was the baby of six.
My next oldest sibling was 11years older than me, and
(41:23):
everybody else was completelyneurotypical.
And then there was me.
Yeah.
And I had a vocabulary thatwould choke a horse at the age
of three.
I was gifted, but I was alsohorribly shy.
I was overly emotional.
I didn't understand.
I would ask questions thatpeople never wanted to hear the
child ask, especially when I wasin Lutheran school.
(41:44):
And I'd be like, that doesn'tmake sense.
I wasn't welcome to our therapysession.
It started an hour earlier.
SPEAKER_00 (41:49):
Yeah, yeah.
But boys love dicks.
I like those.
They're cool.
Dicks.
unknown (41:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:55):
I like when they touch.
I like them on other people.
I don't personally want one onme because gender reasons, but
uh, I like them on other people.
SPEAKER_01 (42:05):
If I'm not using one, I really don't have any
reason for it to be around.
SPEAKER_00 (42:09):
Yeah.
Them from afar.
Like I'm not feeling your D isfine.
It's just like I um I'm good.
I feel it's situational.
Yeah.
Close to being ace.
SPEAKER_01 (42:20):
Like I don't love vagina.
Yeah.
Did you ever see the movie EasyA with Emma Stone?
I've heard of it.
So it's one of my favoritemovies.
Okay, like it's so snarky, andshe delivers that sarcasm so
well.
But at one point, she's helpingher gay friend pretend he's not
gay.
So they're pretending to havesex in the bedroom.
So jumping on the bed togetherand making it sound like they're
(42:43):
doing it.
And at some point she gives himher underwear to make it like
more believable.
And he like makes this face thatshe's like, What do you think I
have down there?
I know what's with that face,you know?
Why are you looking at it likethat?
But I always laugh because I'malways like whenever it's like,
I it's a choice to be gay.
I'm like, Oh, then I've got somenews for you.
You are choosing to be straight.
(43:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You are choosing to be straightbecause only bisexual people
would think that it was a choicewhether they decided to like men
or women.
Yep.
I my child came out to me whenshe was, I don't know, maybe 12.
We were driving in the car andshe just said, How would you
feel if I wanted to date women?
I was like, okay.
(43:25):
I just kept driving and she'slike, That's it.
And I was like, What do you wantme to do?
And that's how it I don't carewho you date, just don't date a
dick.
It shouldn't be that big.
Oh my god.
Like, gender's a construct.
I don't really give a shitwhat's in people's pants.
Like it doesn't really matter tome.
I was like, Yeah, if you'retrying to rebel, you're gonna
have to pick a new way because Idon't care.
Like, I don't care.
It's not working.
So fantastic.
(43:46):
But she's been with her wife.
Like, they've met when they were11.
Oh, that's cute.
My daughter's gonna be 28 thisyear.
They've been together for a longtime.
My nephew met his wife when theywere 14, and he's in his 40s
now.
Yeah.
unknown (44:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:01):
My family, they just latch on to people and they
imprint like ducklings, andthat's a meanwhile, me, I've got
about seven to ten business dayswith anybody, and I'm like,
okay, you're getting on mynerves.
SPEAKER_00 (44:11):
It will happen if it needs to happen.
SPEAKER_01 (44:13):
My ex-wife was my best friend first.
So it felt like just a naturalprogression.
Yeah.
I definitely have to be friendswith somebody first because I
don't trust people.
Same.
I have massive trust issues.
So I need you to do aninternship before I offer the
position.
I need to know that you'rewilling to stick out my crazy
(44:36):
before I offer the full-timeposition because I'm not an easy
person to deal with.
I am fully aware.
I am a Virgo in every sense ofthe word.
Like I am very much a hot messin all aspects of my life.
But yeah, no, I definitely am anacquired taste, but I also am
very picky.
SPEAKER_00 (44:56):
It's good to be picky.
SPEAKER_01 (44:58):
Yeah, I think so.
One time my mom used to say, itwas an old quote from a black
and white star, Buster Keaton orCharlie Chaplin, where it was
like, I'd never want to be amember of a club that would have
me as a member.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
And that's how I feel about dating.
Oh my god.
Oh, you need such a standardtire.
That's why we go to Thairs.
Welcome to Therapy.
No, I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
Mentally avoiding with you and the audience.
Let's get together and talkabout fandom stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (45:24):
I feel like that goes hand in hand with the
panels on citrus colours.
Yep.
Because I think that it does gohand in hand.
Every week I get people who go,Oh my god, I totally agreed with
you the whole time, or I totallyget it.
Nobody ever says the stuff thatyou guys say.
And I think that's why, becausewe have no filter.
We just give our honest opinionon things.
SPEAKER_00 (45:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:49):
Well, if you ever want to come on and actually, if
there's anything you want topromote or you want to talk
about, like any books you wantto talk about or whatever, any
things you're reading orwhatever, you should come back
on with Shannon because I thinkyou and Shannon would get along
famously.
She's also got no filter.
Fuck yeah.
She is she is somebody who is.
She's a Sagittarius, I will tellyou that.
SPEAKER_00 (46:11):
I'm a cancer, if that helps at all.
SPEAKER_01 (46:14):
Oh, you guys will get along great.
Cancers and Sagittarius alwayslove each other so much.
Like my daughter, every time shehas a new friend, I'm like, a
cancer.
She's a Sagittarius.
SPEAKER_00 (46:25):
Me and my wife are both cancers.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (46:29):
That's a lot of feelings.
SPEAKER_00 (46:31):
A lot of emotions.
Wow.
But that's probably a goodthing.
No, we talk about fuckingeverything.
And it's it's amazing to justhave someone that you can just
communicate with and it's not abig fucking deal.
It isn't a huge ordeal to belike, hey, I want to talk about
this thing, and they're justlike, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (46:50):
And then we she like all your BL stuff?
SPEAKER_00 (46:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:54):
Fujoshi.
So oh, then you should bring heron too.
Yeah, yeah.
That sounded way creepier than Imeant it to.
No, it's fine.
I think that would beinteresting.
But all right, I will let yougo.
I want to do this again.
I definitely want to do thisagain.
It's so much fun.
I'll bring Shannon on.
You can bring your wife.
(47:15):
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you so much for putting upwith this mess.
SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
Dude, thank you.
Email me.
SPEAKER_01 (47:24):
Yeah.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (47:26):
Bye.
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