April 16, 2025 • 54 mins
Freeze! FBI!
What drives someone to chase money at any cost? When does the desperate need for parental approval lead us down dangerous paths? I welcome retired FBI Special Agent Jerri Williams to The Film Nuts Podcast to explore these questions through the lens of the 2000 film Boiler Room.
Williams brings 26 years of FBI experience investigating fraud and corruption to this rich conversation. Her career highlight—a three-year undercover operation dubbed "Operation Duct Tape" that took down 14 telemarketing fraud operations—mirrors the financial crimes depicted in the film. She shares fascinating behind-the-scenes details about how real-world telemarketing scams operate, explaining how fraudsters would bribe procurement officers with gift certificates to approve wildly inflated invoices for everyday products.
But what truly captivates Jerri about "Boiler Room" goes beyond its crime elements. "The fact that it was related to the type of work I had done in the FBI was what made me interested in watching it," she explains, "but once I watched it, it was the redemption story that got me hooked." Jerri and I explore the film's emotional core—particularly the devastating relationship between Giovanni Ribisi's character Seth and his father, a federal judge who shows nothing but disappointment in his son's choices.
The discussion reveals surprising personal connections, including Jerri's confession that her very first job was in telemarketing, creating a full-circle connection to her FBI career and her appreciation for this film. She also shares insights on media portrayals of law enforcement, critiquing shows that glorify corrupt tactics while praising stories that show accountability.
Whether you're a crime drama enthusiast, interested in financial fraud, or simply appreciate stories of redemption, this episode offers a uniquely informed perspective on Boiler Room that will make you want to revisit this underappreciated gem of American cinema.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Clip (00:00):
Notorious BIG said it best Either you're slinging crack
rock or you got a wicked jumpshot.
Nobody wants to work for itanymore.
There's no honor in taking thatafter school job at Mickey D's
Honor's in the dollar kid.
So with the white boy way ofslinging crack rock, I became a
stockbroker.
Jerri Williams (00:20):
This sounds kind of corny, but it captured my
heart.
This sounds kind of corny, butit captured my heart.
The fact that it was related tothe type of work I had done in
the FBI was what made meinterested in watching it.
But once I watched it, it wasthe redemption story that got me
hooked.
I'm a girl for a goodredemption story.
(00:40):
The feel, the need, the pain,the agony of wanting to be
better than you are.
Taylor D. Adams (00:50):
Hey folks, welcome back to the Film Nuts
podcast.
I am your host, your cinematicguide and hopefully your friend,
taylor D Adams.
Thank you all so much forjoining me today.
You guys ever try really hardto make someone proud but end up
just screwing everything up.
No, just me, okay.
(01:11):
Well, in today's episode we'rediscussing a movie about someone
who's just trying his best tomake a living, trying to make
his father proud, but he justcan't seem to get it right.
In Boiler Room, the pressureour main character, seth, feels
is augmented by the ways popularmedia and society tell him, as
well as us, what success lookslike.
(01:32):
And sometimes that influencecan be so strong that sometimes
your exciting new job as ajunior stockbroker turns out to
be just a cog in a giantfinancial crime ring.
But Seth is determined to makethings right and that's why my
guest today loves this movie.
Jerri Williams is an author,podcaster and retired special
(01:54):
agent with the FBI.
Her podcast, fbi Retired CaseFile Review, dives deep into
crimes, frauds and schemes herand her colleagues have
investigated over the years.
So her background, mixed withher love of redemption stories,
makes Jerri the perfect guestto discuss Boiler Room.
Jerri and I talk about how shefirst got involved with the FBI
(02:15):
how a telemarketing scamactually works.
And does Boiler Room deserve tohave a shoe thrown at it?
Don't worry, she explains whatthat means.
So let's talk stock tips anddaddy issues.
Here's Jerri Williams talkingabout Boiler Room on the Film
Nuts podcast.
Jerri Williams (02:38):
I'm really good.
This has been a fun andinteresting time for me as far
as being an FBI agent.
A lot of things going on.
Taylor D. Adams (02:51):
Yeah, I was actually going to ask you.
I kind of turned off my newsfeeds a while ago, just because
things got really overwhelming.
But for you as a retired FBIspecial agent is that correct?
But for you as a retired FBIspecial agent?
Clip (03:04):
is that correct?
Taylor D. Adams (03:06):
What is your take or what are your worries or
concerns about what ishappening right now with the
current administration'sinvolvement with the FBI?
Jerri Williams (03:15):
It's concerning.
I mean, the FBI has fought tobe independent for its entire
existence and now I just wonder.
You know I'm, I'm gonna, I'm ona kind of wait and see mode,
trying to figure out, you know,what's going on, what's
(03:36):
happening.
Things are moving so fast thatI just have to take the time to
not panic and not think ofthings to worry about and just
wait and see.
I mean, I am so connected tothe FBI, even though I retired
it's nearly 20 years ago, so Iretired in 2008.
(03:59):
But I'm still very connected, Ikeep up to date on what's going
on.
And so, yeah, I'm in a wait andsee mode, but I am concerned.
Taylor D. Adams (04:09):
What did the FBI when you were involved?
What did it mean to you?
Actually, I want to rewind evenfurther back.
How did you first become an FBIagent?
Jerri Williams (04:19):
Well, I was a juvenile probation officer.
I had majored in psychology andthe position that I had was
actually called an aftercarecounselor.
So I was using my psychologyand during therapy with the
families of the kids that I hadunder my caseload.
All of them had beenadjudicated and sent away to
(04:42):
reform schools and group homesthroughout the state of Virginia
, and I traveled to them tryingto help them integrate back into
the community once they werereleased, and so that was what I
did.
And then one day I saw thisnewsletter that said the FBI was
looking to hire more women andmore minorities, and I had never
(05:06):
even thought about joining theFBI.
I wasn't afraid of lawenforcement in the sense that my
roommate, who is still my bestfriend today, was a police
officer after graduating fromcollege, and so I was already
connected to that.
Graduated from college, and soI was already connected to that.
(05:29):
So I thought let me give him acall and see what this is about.
And, luckily for me, the agentwho answered the phone, randy
Waldrop, I'll always rememberhim.
He recruited me.
I was on the phone with him forat least 45 minutes, you know,
as he told me about the FBIbecause this was back before the
internet.
So I mean to do research youhad to, you know, get up and go
(05:52):
to the library, you know, or buysome books.
So he told me about it and itjust interests me, and I thought
, yeah, which was good, becauseabout six months later I was
walking into the FBI Academy.
Taylor D. Adams (06:07):
What happened during that recruitment process?
What sold you on being a partof the FBI?
Jerri Williams (06:14):
If I'm going to be really honest.
Taylor D. Adams (06:15):
I would love if you were really honest.
Jerri Williams (06:18):
Because I don't know if this makes me sound good
or what, but it was the salary.
I was doubling my salary.
I was making $14,000 a year asa juvenile probation officer in
Newport News, Virginia.
This is back in 1982.
And when I found out that thestarting salary for an FBI agent
(06:42):
back then was $28,000.
I mean, exactly, you know,double.
Yeah, I was like this is goingto work.
We're going to make this work.
Taylor D. Adams (06:52):
Yeah, there is absolutely nothing to be ashamed
of.
Like, oh, double what I'mmaking.
Yeah, I'm in.
Like cause, like what I mean,it feels it's a job, it's a task
, it's a job, it's a task, it'sa career.
Was there ever a point wherelet's say, okay, the, the salary
got you in.
You're like, yeah, now I'm in.
Was there ever a point afterthat, when you were were being
(07:13):
an fbi agent, that you felt likethis was like the good work
that you were?
Jerri Williams (07:19):
doing?
Oh, absolutely.
And I think you start to feelthat when you first get in, when
you're at the FBI Academy, andyou start learning about the
history, start learning aboutthe cases, start learning about
the of violations and protectingour communities, and then you
(07:50):
start to feel like, okay, thisis more than a job, as the
slogan goes for the FBI.
It's a job like no other.
And you really start tounderstand that and you really
start to understand that andeven though you hear a lot of
stuff about the FBI now, when anFBI agent goes into a community
(08:11):
, interacts with a victim, theyfeel happy TV shows and they've
read the books and they'vewatched the movies and what most
people know about the FBI theyget from entertainment media the
(08:35):
books, the TV shows and themovies and so, yeah, they're
relieved that we're there andwhen you have that type of
interaction, you feel it and youfeel proud and you know that.
You know it's a job that meanssomething.
Taylor D. Adams (08:52):
So so, speaking of media, you were with the FBI
till 2008, 2008.
And so you retired from the FBI, and now you've got a media
empire going on.
Clip (09:09):
You've got a long running podcast.
Taylor D. Adams (09:12):
You've authored a number of books, so what was
that pivot like, and why did youeven pivot toward that
direction After I?
Jerri Williams (09:21):
had worked this career, working fraud and
corruption, for most of the timeI was in the FBI.
The last four or five years Iwas appointed as the
spokesperson for Philadelphia.
I was their media rep.
I was the one going out to thepublic For the branch of FBI.
Taylor D. Adams (09:39):
For the whole FBI.
Philadelphia Okay, got it.
Jerri Williams (09:51):
FBI Philadelphia .
I was the spokesperson speakingto the media and the public
about the FBI and what the FBIdid.
I was also a reader.
I've always been a reader in myentire life.
I'm an Air Force brat.
We traveled all over the worldGermany, England, Morocco,
France, and then even in theStates Maine, Massachusetts,
Spokane, Virginia so I wasalways moving, never lived
(10:14):
anywhere more than three years,and so books were my friends,
knowing that one day I'd like towrite one.
And also this career side whereI was now the spokesperson and
being in front of the camera andand promoting the FBI and so
(10:36):
for right.
When I retired, I took anotherrole in that area.
I was the director of mediarelations for SEPTA, which is
the transit system inPhiladelphia your buses, your
trains, your trolleys, yoursubways and so now I'm out there
again in the media promotingthe Philadelphia transit system.
(10:58):
I had already done it with theFBI, promoting and preserving
the public perception of the FBI, and so when I decided I wanted
to start writing books, Ialready had that background and
so I thought how do I use thisto get people to find me and get
people to be interested inreading my books?
(11:20):
And that's when I became apodcaster.
Most of my career I workedfraud and corruption.
Okay, you know yourembezzlements, your advance fees
, advance fee schemes, Ponzischemes.
Taylor D. Adams (11:33):
What is that?
Jerri Williams (11:34):
Advance fee is when maybe you want a loan,
you're trying to get a loan foryour, your business, and so you
go to a broker.
No banks are going to give youa loan, so you go to a broker.
No banks are going to give youa loan.
So you go to a loan broker andhe asked for an advance fee to
find you capital, to find you aninvestor, okay, and they take
your money and then they don'tdo anything, okay, okay.
(11:57):
And that happens a lot, andthere are complicated cases
because you have to prove thatthey did nothing or they never
had the means to do anything,because otherwise it's just a
bad business deal.
So I I love those cases.
I worked a lot of those cases,but I also did and this will go
(12:19):
into the movie that we'retalking about business to
business telemarketing fraud,and that was pretty exciting too
.
Why was it exciting?
Because the fraud, the scam,the deception is right out there
and of course you're going tocapture that it's a telephone
(12:40):
call.
So you're going to do a lot ofconsensual monitoring electronic
monitoring where you're goingto do a lot of consensual
monitoring, electronicmonitoring where you're
capturing those recordedstatements.
And you know it's always fun tobe able to go after a bad guy
and use their own words againstthem.
Taylor D. Adams (12:58):
You got them on tape and you're like no, we,
this is this.
Is it?
This is what we?
Jerri Williams (13:01):
didn't do that.
Oh, you didn't say that, areyou sure?
Yeah, let me play this back toyou.
Taylor D. Adams (13:07):
I was good, is that?
That's got to feel verysatisfying when you've got proof
of somebody, you've got thereceipts.
Jerri Williams (13:13):
You've got proof of somebody just lying through
their teeth there is nothingbetter and you know, and during
the time that I was workingthose cases, social media and
you know, texting was not as,and even emails, if you can
think about it, a lot of thosecases.
I worked in the 90s, so now it'seven better.
(13:33):
I mean, it's like the gift thatkeeps on giving when you're
trying to prove something.
You just go back to socialmedia, see what they said, go
back to email, go back to theirtexts.
See what they said.
Go back to email, go back totheir texts.
You know, see what they said.
You know what they were tellingpeople.
Taylor D. Adams (13:48):
It's a pretty good deal.
So, with that background andgoing toward this telemarketing
fraud, tell me why you wanted totalk about Boiler Room.
Jerri Williams (13:57):
Boiler Room has always been a movie that sounds
kind of corny, but it capturedmy heart.
Taylor D. Adams (14:05):
There's nothing corny about that at all.
Jerri Williams (14:14):
That's awesome.
You know the movie, of course,is about, you know, fraud and
corruption where you have, youknow, a group of young men
trying to get rich quick byconning people out of their
money.
Clip (14:24):
Harry, Harry, listen to this Jesus.
Taylor D. Adams (14:29):
Christ, what's going on over there?
Clip (14:31):
Do you see what I'm saying ?
People know the whole place isgoing nuts.
It's already at the point.
It just came off the restrictedlist.
Look, I'm advising all myclients to get in on this, and
heavy, Don't you see?
You get the same stock that wepicked up at eight.
Only now it's at four.
When it was at eight, I toldyou it was going to 20, right?
Yes?
you did.
Well, it's still going there,probably even higher now.
This doesn't change anything,except that you're going to be
making more money than you didbefore.
(14:52):
Harry, I liked it at eight, Ilove it at four.
Jerri Williams (14:57):
It's an average down for you, but is so
heartbreaking that I just lovedit.
I watched it again last nightin preparation for coming here,
and it got me again.
Taylor D. Adams (15:10):
Do you remember the first time you saw this?
Jerri Williams (15:14):
I don't recall the very first time, but it
would have been sometime like2003 or 4, because the movie
came out in 2000.
And I wasn't going out to themovies very often, so I had to
wait until it got toblockbusters.
So we're going back.
Yes To blockbuster time.
Taylor D. Adams (15:36):
I miss blockbusters so much yeah, so do
I.
Jerri Williams (15:38):
It was just kind of fun going through and
looking at the you know thecovers of the different videos
and making your choices.
So it would have been probablythree or four years after it had
come out.
But it was also after I hadworked this business of business
, telemarketing and so many ofthe things that were in the
(15:59):
movie.
I had experienced myself ininvestigating this case, which I
worked on for three years, ohwow.
Taylor D. Adams (16:08):
So I can't remember within the movie how
long, how long of a time thingstake.
But, and also, the FBI is like,not, it's not.
There's not a lot of FBIpresence in this movie.
They're there because theyserve an important purpose.
But is three years a normalamount of time to try and prove,
(16:32):
gather enough evidence for acase like this?
Jerri Williams (16:34):
Well, my case was much larger.
In the movie in Boiler Room,they're investigating one boiler
room, one firm, yeah, one firm,and mine.
I went after 14 at the sametime, whoa, so that's why it
(16:54):
took so long.
Taylor D. Adams (16:55):
That's why it takes a long time, right.
Jerri Williams (16:56):
And because I had this undercover phone bank,
that should I explain the casePlease?
I would love to hear it.
So it was business-to-businesstelemarketing fraud.
So, somewhat like whentelemarketers call individuals,
there are people who are sittingin a boiler room or a call
(17:19):
center and they have these leadsof businesses throughout the
country and, instead of sellingstock or investments like they
are in boiler room, they wereselling industrial products and
so their whole thing was to getto the procurement officer or
the maintenance person in thisparticular business, whether it
(17:44):
be a school or just a largecorporation.
They were trying to get to theperson that was in charge of
ordering industrial productslight bulbs, cleaning solutions,
duct tape, things like that.
And, matter of fact, the casewas called Operation Duct Tape,
because in the FBI when you havea large case you get a code
(18:07):
name.
So it was Operation Duct Tapeand the whole purpose of the
person that was calling was toget to the procurement officer
and bribe them.
Bribe them to then approveinvoices for products that were
obviously overpriced, usuallythe minimum 10 times what it
(18:31):
would cost you to purchase thatin a legitimate place.
Okay, and so the whole purposewas to bribe them, to get them
to approve the invoice and, at apoint where maybe they were
getting too much being shippedto them, just improve the
invoice and not even ship themerchandise.
(18:52):
And they were being bribed withgift certificates from big
stores like sears sears, I don'teven think sears is still
operating I can't say yes or no,but Sears and your kind of like
Home Depots and things likethat.
They were sending them giftcertificates so they could get
(19:13):
things like big screen TVs,refrigerators, riding lawnmowers
, washer and dryers.
So this was being sent to theprocurement officer at their
home.
Okay, and I believe they mighthave used this term in Boiler
Room, but they were looking fora taker.
So when you made that initialcall, you knew that your
(19:41):
procurement officer that youwere talking to as the
salesperson was a taker.
If he allowed you to get hishome address so that he could
mail these gift certificates totheir home, then you knew
somebody was a taker.
They were willing to take abribe in order to improve these
invoices and it was millions andmillions of dollars and for
some reason, I don't, myunderstanding was that
(20:03):
Philadelphia was like the centerfor this type of scam.
Okay, there were lots and lots,and that's where you were
working and that's where I wasworking in Philadelphia.
And so once I heard about it,once I learned about it, we
decided to do this operation,this Group 2 undercover
operation, where we luckily wentafter one person first, which
(20:25):
is like in boiler room.
There are so many similaritiesbut we went after one person
first, or one organization, onetelemarketing firm first, and
then we use those twoindividuals the owners to become
cooperating witnesses,individuals, the owners to
(20:47):
become cooperating witnesses.
And then I was able to get themto pass out leads to all these
other organizations that theywere connected to.
They thought they were callingpeople all over the country and
they were really calling me.
And so everybody who manned thephone banks, these fictitious
companies, fictitiousorganizations.
(21:08):
When we picked up the phone, webecame a procurement officer
who was very, very greedy.
I was more than happy to acceptthe gift certificates, to
ignore invoices and approveinvoices Wow.
(21:32):
So you were an actor.
Yeah, which is really fun andnot as dangerous.
Especially over the phone,because I was doing it over the
phone, yeah that's voice actingthat's great, so it was a lot of
fun, and so the reason it wenton for three years is because we
were getting all thesecompanies and so I couldn't take
(21:53):
down.
Once I had the information, uh,or the evidence for one company
, I couldn't take it downbecause I was still working on
other companies and actuallythey were stealing leads from
each other.
So maybe initially I believe itwas like maybe eight or ten
(22:13):
companies that we targeted yeahbut I ended up 14 because other
companies somehow got thoseleads.
Maybe salesmen moved to adifferent organization and they
started calling our fictitiousphones.
Wow.
Taylor D. Adams (22:37):
It was really interesting to a case that you
had recently worked as well, asthis emotional component Was
that kind of like.
That's what made you keep thismovie in mind the more time went
on.
Jerri Williams (22:53):
The fact that it was related to the type of work
I had done in the FBI was whatmade me interested in watching
it.
But once I watched it, it wasthe redemption story that got me
hooked.
I'm a girl for a goodredemption story, you know,
(23:13):
that's what I write.
The books that I've written areredemption stories.
That's what I like to read.
You know police procedurals orcrime stories where somebody you
know it may be the target, thebad guy, it may be the agent you
know has a story of redemptionand I love that.
And this movie goes way outwhen it comes to that the feel,
(23:39):
the need, the pain, the agony ofwanting to be better than you
are, the pain, the agony ofwanting to be better than you
are.
And that's what our maincharacter, whose name I can't
Seth, seth Seth Seth Davis, whois played by Giovanni Ribisi he,
just, he's such a great actor.
Yes, yeah, he's such a greatactor and I believe the story
(24:03):
and, yeah, I just love the movie.
Taylor D. Adams (24:08):
Well, you talked a little bit about how
the case is similar to somethingyou worked on.
You've authored many books,including this one you just
gifted me which I reallyappreciate, about kind of the
FBI myths and misconceptionsinside the TV shows and movies
we watch.
Misconceptions inside you knowthe tv and the tv shows and
movies we watch, so kind of onthis let's say, would you throw
(24:29):
your shoe at this movie or isthis?
No, this is like this is aproceed protocol wise, this is a
good fbi.
Jerri Williams (24:39):
Yes, that that is my rating system, because the
reality is that when it's notjust police officers and FBI
agents when we watch a crimestory, it's the same thing with
doctors when they watch amedical story, lawyers when they
watch a legal drama.
There are some times whenyou're watching this and you
think this person has doneabsolutely no research and you
(25:00):
want to take the book, if you'rereading the book and throw it
across the room.
Or if you're watching a TV showor movie, and you want to take
the book if you're reading thebook and throw it across the
room.
Or if you're watching a TV showor movie, you want to take your
shoe off and throw it at the TVbecause it is just so
unauthentic.
Taylor D. Adams (25:18):
Is that a word?
Yeah, sure, I think it is.
Jerri Williams (25:19):
Yeah, inauthentic, yeah, it's
inauthentic.
Taylor D. Adams (25:21):
Not authentic.
Jerri Williams (25:22):
Yeah, it's not authentic.
And you just think, couldn'tyou have just done a little
research?
And so in writing this book FBIMyths and Misconceptions a
manual for armchair detectives Ihave done the work for everyone
.
Taylor D. Adams (25:38):
You mentioned that you like the redemption
story.
What about?
Can you go any more specificsabout what about that redemption
story is so good for you towatch?
Jerri Williams (25:50):
well, I think probably because, knowing story
structure and that you shouldtry to strive for an arc.
You know an arc, you know wherethe your main characters again,
whether they're bad guys orgood guys start at one point and
(26:10):
go through a journey to anotherand the redemption plotline
serves that very well and I liketo see that journey.
I don't want just I'm not thatmuch into thrillers where
there's action, action, action,something happening every time,
(26:30):
because I really like thatpersonal story and so something
where they do show you that homelife.
You know police procedurals aregreat because if you do them
right you have that crime thatthe character is solving, but
(26:52):
you're also learning about themand how it affects.
As a matter of fact, josephWambaugh, rest in peace who
recently passed away.
Had this saying that I alwaysloved.
Passed away.
Had this saying that I alwaysloved and it is that a good
crime story is not how a copworks on a case, but how a case
(27:12):
works on a cop.
Taylor D. Adams (27:14):
Hmm, okay, yeah , I see that.
Jerri Williams (27:17):
And so that really is what redemption
stories are about.
It's whatever the person isdoing and going through, how
that helps them change.
Whether it's redemption storiesyou're supposed to change for
the good, I like to see thatjourney, that change.
Taylor D. Adams (27:36):
What about the?
When we talked off mic, youtalked about how you really
loved the.
You talked about how you reallyloved the relationship between
Seth and his dad, the judge.
What about that was sointeresting to you?
Jerri Williams (27:52):
It was dramatic and it was so real, and there's
not a lot of shows where they gointo such emotional depth when
they talk about some of thoseuncomfortable relationships
between fathers and son.
You might have one where thekid is trying to get the
father's attention and thefather's too busy with work, but
(28:16):
this one it's almost as if thejudge, who is the father, really
resents his son's lack ofambition.
Uh, I dropped out.
Clip (28:31):
Wanna tell us why?
Well, I gave it to you, dad,and it's just not.
It's just not for me, I see.
So that means you've been lyingto us for six months Six months
, seth.
Jerri Williams (28:42):
School's fine, dad.
My grades are good, dad.
All right, let's just leavethat for a second.
Uh, so you dropped out?
Clip (28:49):
That means you haven't been getting your student loan
checks right.
Is that right?
How you making a rent everymonth, seth?
Well, I'm running a businessand I'm just earning a living.
Jerri Williams (29:02):
Earning a living .
Is this what you call earning aliving?
Is that earning a living?
Earning a living Is this whatyou call earning a living?
Is that earning a living?
Huh, I mean, at one point inthe movie there's a scene where
he actually calls him anunbelievable piece of shit and
it was like whoa, this is afather talking about their son,
and there are other lines and itwas just so heartbreaking but
(29:27):
real.
I mean.
I don't know anybody thatpersonally from my family, but
I've heard of stories and heardof people talk about having
these really um, sad and youknow relationships with, with
parents and this one showed itin a way that was so raw and so
(29:49):
out there that it just it.
I mean it's as a mother of ofthree kids and, you know, a
grandmother.
It just really affected me andand always will.
Every time I watch, you know,the relationship between the
father and the son, the judgeand Seth will always tear at my
(30:11):
heart.
Taylor D. Adams (30:13):
Yeah, the relationship was super
interesting to me, especiallywhen we see, like the start of
the movie.
We see, you know, we have thislike flash forward of of like
there's a big party happening,All these stockbroker,
stockbroker dudes on a bus aboutto have a party, but then we
see Seth, kind of flashback, andhe's running his own business
(30:35):
Granted, it's, it's, it's acasino out of his house, Right.
Clip (30:38):
It's illegal.
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah.
Taylor D. Adams (30:41):
But I think that's what's so interesting is
that he's making money doingsomething illegal and his father
is disappointed in him.
Disappointed is probably themilder word for what he is
feeling.
He's disgusted yes, very muchso.
And so he, because he loves hisdad and wants to make him proud
, he decides to clean up his actin one way or another and finds
(31:05):
this in for a stock, being astockbroker basically, and when
that turns out to be alsoillegal, the fact that they were
both illegal, I think, isreally interesting with this,
because all Seth was trying todo was survive and make money,
which I think is superinteresting.
When his father talks about hislack of ambition, he's like, no
(31:26):
, he actually has it, it's justnot in a way that you approve of
.
And then when he tries to gofor lack of a better term
straight, he unknowingly is thendoing something illegal.
Jerri Williams (31:37):
And I think his motivation to me is really more
than just trying to make money.
He's trying to make money tomake his father proud.
That is his primary goal, andwhatever he does is to make his
father proud.
And the first one I don't knowwhy he didn't realize his father
(31:58):
was not going to be happy abouthim running an illegal casino,
you know, in his home.
But the second one again theword heartbreaking that he
thinks I finally made it.
You know, I'm going to take mySeries 7 and I'm going to become
a stockbroker, and his fatherwas proud.
(32:18):
His father was really excitedwhen he heard that he was going
to, you know, to do that, and hewas very, very proud.
And so when Seth slowlyrealizes that it's illegal too,
this is a fraud, he's actuallygot it.
I mean, he is just he's notsure what to do.
(32:41):
He wants to get out.
He begs his father to help himget out because it's happened
and he's so embarrassed.
Clip (32:51):
And the casino.
The casino was a fuckingbusiness and I ran it pretty
fucking well, dad, and to thinkthat I closed it for you.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
When did you close it?
And then I went after this jobbecause I thought it was what
you wanted me to be doing.
Seth Seth.
Wait a second.
When did you close it?
(33:12):
And I tried to make the changesthat you wanted me to, and I'm
leaving JT.
Now.
I'm just asking you for thisone thing, dad.
Just this one thing, please,just to help your son.
Taylor D. Adams (33:25):
Was there ever a point when you were first
starting out in your career, wasthere ever a goal to make your
folks proud?
Jerri Williams (33:32):
Oh, as soon as I became well, I think they were
proud when I went to collegebecause they didn't go to
college.
So you know, I think in mostcases, every child wants to make
their parents proud.
They want to show their parentsthat the values and you know,
(33:53):
and the love that you've givento me.
I'm returning that by being anupstanding citizen in the
community.
So, yeah, we all want to makeour parents proud and when I
became an FBI agent, I thinkthey were extremely proud.
They were there with me when Iwas sworn in I.
(34:15):
You know I have a picture thatI keep.
Oh, that's so cool.
Neither of them are still alive,but they were very, very very
proud.
Taylor D. Adams (34:22):
So I kind of want to dive in a little bit
more about kind of with GiovanniRibisi's character.
I don't it's like there's kindof a fully realized redemption,
because the movie ends kind ofabruptly.
Yes, it does, and so we don'treally get to see, like the the
(34:44):
the aftermath of his choices,but we do get to see the thing
that sparks him to kind ofchange his ways and also go to
his father and try to try to gethim to help him, and then the
father gets caught on on tape Iwant you to testify.
Clip (35:04):
What are you offering?
Full immunity and what?
What happens with my father?
I mean, he won't do any time,sir.
I haven't done anything legal.
So then what's the deal?
Then the deal is I lose myjudgeship, just going along for
the ride.
I have nothing to do with that,excuse me.
What is that supposed to mean?
You're going to release thetape to the press.
(35:27):
Makes your case much moreglamorous with the involvement
of a federal judge.
Taylor D. Adams (35:30):
It's so interesting to me that this
movie decides not to show us howthe case is resolved.
How would this case resolve, doyou think?
Jerri Williams (35:42):
Well, that was the one thing about the movie
when we get into how I like toreview movies for teachable
moments.
Seth's relationship in the FBIkind of was off Because Nina
Long, wonderful actress, but Idon't understand why they went
to her when they could have gonedirectly to Seth, you know, and
(36:05):
gathered a lot of thatinformation.
But I think his redemption doestake place in the movie when he
starts to see these clues thatit's illegal and he continues to
search them out.
I think we would not have calledthat redemption if he saw
(36:26):
something and he ignored it yeah, that's true, but the fact that
he kept looking and keptfinding and kept searching for
what was illegal and how hecould get out of this.
Of course he was trying to getout of it in a way where he
would still make some money, butthe redemption, I think, is
(36:49):
solidified when he goes out ofhis way to get the money back
from the one victim whose lifehe's destroyed by taking their
life savings.
Clip (36:59):
His name is Harry Renard.
I don't know him.
Well, I think you should,because we're about to lose him
and he dropped $50,000 on FerroTech this week alone.
And you want to do what?
Well, I want to keep him here.
I think that we should give hima chunk of the MedPAD and IPO.
We don't just hand out an IPOto somebody who had a bad day in
(37:19):
the market.
Look, michael, this guy is afucking whale and he's going to
do an obscene amount of businesswith this firm.
You're somehow just sure ofthis.
Yeah, the guy completely trustsme.
He doesn't even need the money.
He owns the biggest foodscompany in Wisconsin.
Jerri Williams (37:36):
So I do even need the money.
He owns the biggest foodscompany in wisconsin, so I do
think the redemption is shown inthe movie.
Taylor D. Adams (37:39):
Okay, yeah, you know.
Yeah, you're right.
Jerri Williams (37:39):
I think what I think of is like I wanted to see
all the guys go I wanted to seethe whole firm just get burned
to the ground well, you saw thatin a sense, when the caravan
yeah cars pulled into theparking lot and you know what
was going to happen next.
Yes, for me, that would havemade the whole movie.
You know what was going tohappen next?
Yes, for me, that would havemade the whole movie.
You know, to continue on to allof that next phase.
(38:01):
That would have made it a realFBI movie for me.
Um this one is really features.
You know our has an FBI elementto it, but it is not an FBI
movie.
Yeah.
Taylor D. Adams (38:15):
Cop shows and movies have just been around
forever, like it's it's a bigthing, it's, it's rife material
for procedural shows to showjust really good stories.
We like as audiences, we likeseeing people who are good at
their jobs, regardless of whatthat job is.
Um, but there's also like a lotof I mean, mean I don't the
(38:36):
popular term with like showslike Law and Order and stuff
like this, with like a lot ofstuff that Dick Wolf creates.
It's kind of this like the thiscopaganda model where, like,
we're portraying our heroes aspolice officers.
You know, we want to celebratethe renegade who believes he's
above the law because he getsresults.
Is there anything that you'veseen, show or movie-wise, where
(38:56):
you see something along thoselines that you personally feel
is detrimental to almost like alaw enforcement reputation?
Chicago, okay, chicago.
Pd yeah, okay.
Jerri Williams (39:11):
Because there is a corruption and an
undercurrent of doing whatevermeans is necessary to get the
bad guy.
I've only watched that showonce or twice and it turned me
off right away, you know, tothink that people are watching
this and thinking that thisunderhanded way of going about
(39:37):
justice, you know, is acceptable.
And so there are TV shows thatshow that, in a more of a
conspiracy where everybody'sinvolved in this activity, that
turns me off.
Of course you know everybody'sgoing to have.
That turns me off.
(39:57):
Of course you know, you knoweverybody's going to have.
In every situation there aregoing to be people that, uh, are
going to go off the the thepath that they're supposed to be
on yeah, and so showing that asan individual and then, of
course, following through andshowing that person, get you
know the consequences of that.
I love those stories, but onewhere you have somebody who's
(40:20):
supposed to be the good guy butis all doing all this
underhanded and bad stuff behindthe scenes.
That turns me off.
Taylor D. Adams (40:29):
Yeah feel like there's I feel like there's
almost this modern sense ofwatching um, watching someone
who has a certain profession,whose job is to fight crime or
do good or whatever it is.
(40:50):
There's almost like an escapistmentality where we want to see
the ideal version of how thosethings happen, like we don't
want to see as much as we youknow, we might have a bit, a
little bit of rebellious spiritagainst.
Some of us have a rebelliousspirit against authority and all
this other stuff.
I feel like, at at the verybase level, we all want to see,
(41:13):
like you said, quote, quote,unquote.
Justice come full um is.
Is there anything I mean youmentioned chicago pd?
Is there anything that we'rekind of as viewers when we watch
shows like this?
Is there anything we should beaware of about what might
constitute a quote, good or badrepresentation of law
(41:38):
enforcement?
Jerri Williams (41:41):
Reality.
You know you don't of course,as creators.
You know as novelists orscreenwriters.
You know you want to use yourimagination to create your story
, but you can also look at whatis happening for real to get
(42:04):
that story foundation and so,hopefully, when you have a bad
cop, the reason that you knowthat person's a bad cop is
because of the consequences thatthat person has faced.
We want that.
Taylor D. Adams (42:24):
That's for sure .
Jerri Williams (42:25):
It doesn't always happen, but we want that.
It's also very American to wantstories to end happily.
Taylor D. Adams (42:36):
I mean.
Jerri Williams (42:36):
I've watched foreign films and they end with
the person that you've beencheering for the whole film
having something terrible happenand you're like what?
That's not what I wanted.
No, that's not what I wanted atall, all and so, but we like
(43:00):
that, we like a happy endinghere and so, um, the happy
ending for me in a show thatshows law enforcement acting
badly is to make sure those lawenforcement officers are receive
consequences they're heldaccountable.
Taylor D. Adams (43:12):
Yeah, I feel like that's.
Yeah, I agree with you there,like I want, it doesn't matter
what what color uniform you'rewearing, or if you're wearing a
uniform at all.
Like if you do something bad,we all want people those people,
to be held accountable,regardless of who they are.
Jerri Williams (43:31):
And going back to the movie in Boiler Room, you
see that.
You see that the people thatdid wrong are going to be held
accountable.
Taylor D. Adams (43:41):
Do you have a favorite moment or scene from
this film?
Jerri Williams (43:48):
It's that heartbreaking scene where Seth
goes to the judge and admitsthat it's wrong and he is crying
, he's sobbing, he's begging hisfather to help him.
I mean, this, he's a young man,but he is a man and for him to
(44:12):
now revert to the most child andchild is not in a negative way.
But this, this is a young, thisis a boy crying and asking and
begging for his father's love.
That scene, I mean, it's justso well acted, you know, and I I
(44:32):
think for me.
A lot of times when I'mwatching a show, there are
things in it that take me out ofthe story, and this is one that
put me so deep in that storythat it's become one of my
favorites.
Taylor D. Adams (44:47):
You bring up a good point about just the child
aspect.
I think everyone other than thejudge in this movie and the FBI
agents or everyone involvedwith the JT Marlin is a child.
That that is how I am seeing.
You know, when Seth goes overto you know one of the head
guys's house and they're alllike watching.
(45:08):
They're watching the WallStreet or they talk about Glenn
Gary, glenn Ross.
You know they're eating pizzaand there's like nothing set up
in the entire house but a couchand a TV.
Jerri Williams (45:23):
Seth.
What's up?
Man Wait outside.
Clip (45:25):
I thought you weren't going to make it.
Man, sit down, grab a slice,have a beer.
You think he fucked?
Hannah, or you think she fuckedher Both of them.
He's just moving in.
What do you?
Taylor D. Adams (45:35):
mean he's been there eight months.
When I was apartment hoppingwhile I was in college and
recently after college, I didn'tunpack either.
But yeah, I was like in myearly 20s, like you're still
you're not developed yet, likeyou're still figuring stuff out,
which I think is so importantto kind of showcase those kind
of individuals in this movie andhow young they are when they're
putting on a performance of howthey think an adult should act.
Jerri Williams (45:58):
So there is a line in the movie where Seth is
told that he needed to act as if.
Act as if you're rich, act asif you're the best investment
stockbroker there is to put onthat air.
It's almost like the uh, thefake it till you make it yeah
and I think that is one of thethings that you see throughout
(46:23):
the movie when you talk aboutthese guys that you know are
trying to live large, butthey're really boys.
You know young boys acting asif they're men yeah, a yeah 100.
Taylor D. Adams (46:38):
That's what I was getting.
The whole time I was like theseare kids.
These are children trying to,they're when they're on the
phone, pretending that thesethings like that's part of sales
, um, try to.
I don't think.
I don't, can't remember if theyuh say this in this movie, but
it's just the first job I everfull for a time, full-time bob
ever had.
I was a car salesman and thesales technique was to get
(47:01):
somebody to say yes three timesto anything and then you got him
on the hook and I'm like that'sit brought me back to that way
of thinking where you can saythe goal is for you to say
whatever you need to in order toget your, your mark or whoever,
to say yes three times.
And the fact that these aresuch young people just doing
(47:26):
what they've been like, beenwhat they feel like success is,
and it's not even just becausetheir boss is telling them that.
It's because, like, what'simportant, money is important
and what's out right now, likethese, the, or what's out within
the past decade, like thesemovies that portray success,
these movies that kind of we cantake the wrong message from,
(47:47):
like I know plenty of peoplewatch Wolf of Wall Street and
take the wrong message from thatmovie.
The wrong message from thatmovie and it's just super
fascinating to me that we've gota movie about that and then
your central character realizeshow wrong everything is and
breaks away.
Jerri Williams (48:04):
And that may be what I love about this movie,
because you're right.
In Wolf of Wall Street, I mean,they celebrate this gluttonous
need for money and stuff and yousee that in Boiler Room, but
then you get to see the otherside of it.
(48:24):
That is probably.
You know what you just remindedme.
My very first job wastelemarketing Really, and get
this was telemarketing Really,and get this.
I sold Sears maintenanceagreements to people who had
just purchased, you know, washmachines and dryers.
(48:45):
Are you sure you weren't partof a con?
I work for Sears but I'm surewe use some of those and it's
not like I forgot about that.
But you know, connecting that,that first job to this movie and
my career kind of came fullcircle.
Yeah, it's also the first well,the only time I was ever fired
(49:09):
too.
Oh so it was my first job, Okay,I worked at in high school.
I had to go to this littleoffice and get on the phone with
the lead card to people who hadjust recently purchased.
This is amazing that I'mthinking about this two or three
(49:32):
year extended warranty service.
And a lot of times people youknow the machine wasn't working
right, it had already had to beserviced, and you know so they
were irate, you know.
Oh, while you're on the phone,let me tell you the knob came
off, you know, and so they'reyelling at you.
And so one time a customer wasyelling at me and had slammed
(49:55):
the phone down and hung up.
And after they hung up I saidsomething and slammed the phone
down and hung up, but I wasn'ttalking to the client, but my
boss thought I was.
I got fired, Wow.
But you know what?
Taylor D. Adams (50:12):
Yeah, I hated that job.
I mean, yeah, I imagine whenyou took that you were like, oh,
this is the career I'm going tohave.
Jerri Williams (50:19):
Yeah, Telemarketing is a hard job and
so just having to take thatbreath and pick up the phone and
dial it again, knowing thatyou're going to have to make
hundreds of calls to get thatone, yes, is very, very
difficult.
So not that I feel sorry fortelemarketers I'm.
(50:44):
You know, when I get a call,luckily on the cell phone, you
know they tell you right nowprobably spam and say you can
ignore it.
Taylor D. Adams (50:50):
Yeah, potentially spam.
I get that a lot yeah.
Jerri Williams (50:53):
But yeah, yeah, that's really strange.
I forgot about that.
That's funny how it works out,maybe that's why I like this
movie so much.
Taylor D. Adams (51:01):
I like to think that for me at least, like
professionally, when I go fromone long term gig to another,
whether it's like it's devotingall of my time and I'm getting
paid, or it's just a passionproject that I'm really into, I
find that whatever I'm I work onnext has built upon what I've
(51:22):
previously worked on and it justkind of goes and goes, and goes
and goes, and so that's how I Imean, that's kind of what.
What happened with you, atleast from this kind of like you
know, um yeah, fromtelemarketer to FBI agent who
worked on a telemarketing scam,who then loves this movie?
I think it makes total sense,okay.
Jerri Williams (51:38):
Wow, thank you.
How much did I owe you for thistherapy session for me to find
my innermost motivation?
Taylor D. Adams (51:47):
You can donate at patreoncom slash film nuts.
This was so much fun.
I'm so glad you came on theshow and I can't thank you
enough, and I'm really lookingforward to reading your book FBI
Myths and Misconceptions amanual for armchair detectives.
Oh man, I can't wait to solve acrime after this.
Thanks, jerri, you're welcome.
(52:11):
The reason I love doing the showis that everyone has different
reasons for enjoying what theylove and sometimes on the show
my guest is able to discovereven more of those reasons and
I'm not going to lie, it feelspretty good if I'm the one
helping someone else deepentheir love for their favorite
movie or favorite TV show.
I think it's incredibly coolhow our upbringing, our job, our
(52:34):
goals and much more influencewhat we love to watch.
A huge thanks to Jerri forchatting with me today and a
$50,000 stock option to you forjoining us in our little
discussion.
Before you go, please check outJerri's podcast FBI Retired
Case File Review and the manybooks she's written.
(52:54):
You'll find a link to all thatstuff in the show notes.
If you enjoyed the show today,please go ahead and subscribe on
your favorite podcast platformof choice to stay up to date on
all of our episodes and if youhappen to be listening to this
on Apple Podcasts, please leavea rating and review.
We really appreciate it and ithelps us get noticed by more
awesome people like yourself,and I produce all these episodes
out of my own pocket, so if youwant to help support the show,
(53:18):
please consider backing us onPatreon.
For more info on that, checkout the show notes or visit
patreoncom.
Slash film nuts, our theme thisseason, is brought to us by J
Mac, our artwork is designed byMadungwa Subuhudi, our head of
production is Keaton Lusk, andall episodes of the film nuts
podcast are are produced andedited by me, taylor D Adams.
If you want to get in touch,you can email filmnutspodcast at
(53:40):
gmailcom or follow us onInstagram and TikTok at
filmnutspodcast.
And don't forget to join theNuthouse Discord community
absolutely free by checking outthe link in the show notes.
There's all kinds of coolpeople in there who love movies
and TV and all kinds ofentertainment, so jump on in.
Thank you all again.
So much for joining me todayand until next time, I hope your
parents approve of all yourdecisions or not Uh, I don't
(54:03):
know your life.
Um, just do what makes youhappy and don't hurt anyone,
okay?
Um, I'm going to read uhJerri's book now.
Um, yeah, I'm excited.
Anyway, hope you'll join usnext time.
Bye.
Notorious BIG said it best Either you're slinging crack
rock or you got a wicked jumpshot.
Nobody wants to work for itanymore.
There's no honor in taking thatafter school job at Mickey D's
Honor's in the dollar kid.
So with the white boy way ofslinging crack rock, I became a
stockbroker.
Jerri Williams (00:20):
This sounds kind of corny, but it captured my
heart.
This sounds kind of corny, butit captured my heart.
The fact that it was related tothe type of work I had done in
the FBI was what made meinterested in watching it.
But once I watched it, it wasthe redemption story that got me
hooked.
I'm a girl for a goodredemption story.
(00:40):
The feel, the need, the pain,the agony of wanting to be
better than you are.
Taylor D. Adams (00:50):
Hey folks, welcome back to the Film Nuts
podcast.
I am your host, your cinematicguide and hopefully your friend,
taylor D Adams.
Thank you all so much forjoining me today.
You guys ever try really hardto make someone proud but end up
just screwing everything up.
No, just me, okay.
(01:11):
Well, in today's episode we'rediscussing a movie about someone
who's just trying his best tomake a living, trying to make
his father proud, but he justcan't seem to get it right.
In Boiler Room, the pressureour main character, seth, feels
is augmented by the ways popularmedia and society tell him, as
well as us, what success lookslike.
(01:32):
And sometimes that influencecan be so strong that sometimes
your exciting new job as ajunior stockbroker turns out to
be just a cog in a giantfinancial crime ring.
But Seth is determined to makethings right and that's why my
guest today loves this movie.
Jerri Williams is an author,podcaster and retired special
(01:54):
agent with the FBI.
Her podcast, fbi Retired CaseFile Review, dives deep into
crimes, frauds and schemes herand her colleagues have
investigated over the years.
So her background, mixed withher love of redemption stories,
makes Jerri the perfect guestto discuss Boiler Room.
Jerri and I talk about how shefirst got involved with the FBI
(02:15):
how a telemarketing scamactually works.
And does Boiler Room deserve tohave a shoe thrown at it?
Don't worry, she explains whatthat means.
So let's talk stock tips anddaddy issues.
Here's Jerri Williams talkingabout Boiler Room on the Film
Nuts podcast.
Jerri Williams (02:38):
I'm really good.
This has been a fun andinteresting time for me as far
as being an FBI agent.
A lot of things going on.
Taylor D. Adams (02:51):
Yeah, I was actually going to ask you.
I kind of turned off my newsfeeds a while ago, just because
things got really overwhelming.
But for you as a retired FBIspecial agent is that correct?
But for you as a retired FBIspecial agent?
Clip (03:04):
is that correct?
Taylor D. Adams (03:06):
What is your take or what are your worries or
concerns about what ishappening right now with the
current administration'sinvolvement with the FBI?
Jerri Williams (03:15):
It's concerning.
I mean, the FBI has fought tobe independent for its entire
existence and now I just wonder.
You know I'm, I'm gonna, I'm ona kind of wait and see mode,
trying to figure out, you know,what's going on, what's
(03:36):
happening.
Things are moving so fast thatI just have to take the time to
not panic and not think ofthings to worry about and just
wait and see.
I mean, I am so connected tothe FBI, even though I retired
it's nearly 20 years ago, so Iretired in 2008.
(03:59):
But I'm still very connected, Ikeep up to date on what's going
on.
And so, yeah, I'm in a wait andsee mode, but I am concerned.
Taylor D. Adams (04:09):
What did the FBI when you were involved?
What did it mean to you?
Actually, I want to rewind evenfurther back.
How did you first become an FBIagent?
Jerri Williams (04:19):
Well, I was a juvenile probation officer.
I had majored in psychology andthe position that I had was
actually called an aftercarecounselor.
So I was using my psychologyand during therapy with the
families of the kids that I hadunder my caseload.
All of them had beenadjudicated and sent away to
(04:42):
reform schools and group homesthroughout the state of Virginia
, and I traveled to them tryingto help them integrate back into
the community once they werereleased, and so that was what I
did.
And then one day I saw thisnewsletter that said the FBI was
looking to hire more women andmore minorities, and I had never
(05:06):
even thought about joining theFBI.
I wasn't afraid of lawenforcement in the sense that my
roommate, who is still my bestfriend today, was a police
officer after graduating fromcollege, and so I was already
connected to that.
Graduated from college, and soI was already connected to that.
(05:29):
So I thought let me give him acall and see what this is about.
And, luckily for me, the agentwho answered the phone, randy
Waldrop, I'll always rememberhim.
He recruited me.
I was on the phone with him forat least 45 minutes, you know,
as he told me about the FBIbecause this was back before the
internet.
So I mean to do research youhad to, you know, get up and go
(05:52):
to the library, you know, or buysome books.
So he told me about it and itjust interests me, and I thought
, yeah, which was good, becauseabout six months later I was
walking into the FBI Academy.
Taylor D. Adams (06:07):
What happened during that recruitment process?
What sold you on being a partof the FBI?
Jerri Williams (06:14):
If I'm going to be really honest.
Taylor D. Adams (06:15):
I would love if you were really honest.
Jerri Williams (06:18):
Because I don't know if this makes me sound good
or what, but it was the salary.
I was doubling my salary.
I was making $14,000 a year asa juvenile probation officer in
Newport News, Virginia.
This is back in 1982.
And when I found out that thestarting salary for an FBI agent
(06:42):
back then was $28,000.
I mean, exactly, you know,double.
Yeah, I was like this is goingto work.
We're going to make this work.
Taylor D. Adams (06:52):
Yeah, there is absolutely nothing to be ashamed
of.
Like, oh, double what I'mmaking.
Yeah, I'm in.
Like cause, like what I mean,it feels it's a job, it's a task
, it's a job, it's a task, it'sa career.
Was there ever a point wherelet's say, okay, the, the salary
got you in.
You're like, yeah, now I'm in.
Was there ever a point afterthat, when you were were being
(07:13):
an fbi agent, that you felt likethis was like the good work
that you were?
Jerri Williams (07:19):
doing?
Oh, absolutely.
And I think you start to feelthat when you first get in, when
you're at the FBI Academy, andyou start learning about the
history, start learning aboutthe cases, start learning about
the of violations and protectingour communities, and then you
(07:50):
start to feel like, okay, thisis more than a job, as the
slogan goes for the FBI.
It's a job like no other.
And you really start tounderstand that and you really
start to understand that andeven though you hear a lot of
stuff about the FBI now, when anFBI agent goes into a community
(08:11):
, interacts with a victim, theyfeel happy TV shows and they've
read the books and they'vewatched the movies and what most
people know about the FBI theyget from entertainment media the
(08:35):
books, the TV shows and themovies and so, yeah, they're
relieved that we're there andwhen you have that type of
interaction, you feel it and youfeel proud and you know that.
You know it's a job that meanssomething.
Taylor D. Adams (08:52):
So so, speaking of media, you were with the FBI
till 2008, 2008.
And so you retired from the FBI, and now you've got a media
empire going on.
Clip (09:09):
You've got a long running podcast.
Taylor D. Adams (09:12):
You've authored a number of books, so what was
that pivot like, and why did youeven pivot toward that
direction After I?
Jerri Williams (09:21):
had worked this career, working fraud and
corruption, for most of the timeI was in the FBI.
The last four or five years Iwas appointed as the
spokesperson for Philadelphia.
I was their media rep.
I was the one going out to thepublic For the branch of FBI.
Taylor D. Adams (09:39):
For the whole FBI.
Philadelphia Okay, got it.
Jerri Williams (09:51):
FBI Philadelphia .
I was the spokesperson speakingto the media and the public
about the FBI and what the FBIdid.
I was also a reader.
I've always been a reader in myentire life.
I'm an Air Force brat.
We traveled all over the worldGermany, England, Morocco,
France, and then even in theStates Maine, Massachusetts,
Spokane, Virginia so I wasalways moving, never lived
(10:14):
anywhere more than three years,and so books were my friends,
knowing that one day I'd like towrite one.
And also this career side whereI was now the spokesperson and
being in front of the camera andand promoting the FBI and so
(10:36):
for right.
When I retired, I took anotherrole in that area.
I was the director of mediarelations for SEPTA, which is
the transit system inPhiladelphia your buses, your
trains, your trolleys, yoursubways and so now I'm out there
again in the media promotingthe Philadelphia transit system.
(10:58):
I had already done it with theFBI, promoting and preserving
the public perception of the FBI, and so when I decided I wanted
to start writing books, Ialready had that background and
so I thought how do I use thisto get people to find me and get
people to be interested inreading my books?
(11:20):
And that's when I became apodcaster.
Most of my career I workedfraud and corruption.
Okay, you know yourembezzlements, your advance fees
, advance fee schemes, Ponzischemes.
Taylor D. Adams (11:33):
What is that?
Jerri Williams (11:34):
Advance fee is when maybe you want a loan,
you're trying to get a loan foryour, your business, and so you
go to a broker.
No banks are going to give youa loan, so you go to a broker.
No banks are going to give youa loan.
So you go to a loan broker andhe asked for an advance fee to
find you capital, to find you aninvestor, okay, and they take
your money and then they don'tdo anything, okay, okay.
(11:57):
And that happens a lot, andthere are complicated cases
because you have to prove thatthey did nothing or they never
had the means to do anything,because otherwise it's just a
bad business deal.
So I I love those cases.
I worked a lot of those cases,but I also did and this will go
(12:19):
into the movie that we'retalking about business to
business telemarketing fraud,and that was pretty exciting too
.
Why was it exciting?
Because the fraud, the scam,the deception is right out there
and of course you're going tocapture that it's a telephone
(12:40):
call.
So you're going to do a lot ofconsensual monitoring electronic
monitoring where you're goingto do a lot of consensual
monitoring, electronicmonitoring where you're
capturing those recordedstatements.
And you know it's always fun tobe able to go after a bad guy
and use their own words againstthem.
Taylor D. Adams (12:58):
You got them on tape and you're like no, we,
this is this.
Is it?
This is what we?
Jerri Williams (13:01):
didn't do that.
Oh, you didn't say that, areyou sure?
Yeah, let me play this back toyou.
Taylor D. Adams (13:07):
I was good, is that?
That's got to feel verysatisfying when you've got proof
of somebody, you've got thereceipts.
Jerri Williams (13:13):
You've got proof of somebody just lying through
their teeth there is nothingbetter and you know, and during
the time that I was workingthose cases, social media and
you know, texting was not as,and even emails, if you can
think about it, a lot of thosecases.
I worked in the 90s, so now it'seven better.
(13:33):
I mean, it's like the gift thatkeeps on giving when you're
trying to prove something.
You just go back to socialmedia, see what they said, go
back to email, go back to theirtexts.
See what they said.
Go back to email, go back totheir texts.
You know, see what they said.
You know what they were tellingpeople.
Taylor D. Adams (13:48):
It's a pretty good deal.
So, with that background andgoing toward this telemarketing
fraud, tell me why you wanted totalk about Boiler Room.
Jerri Williams (13:57):
Boiler Room has always been a movie that sounds
kind of corny, but it capturedmy heart.
Taylor D. Adams (14:05):
There's nothing corny about that at all.
Jerri Williams (14:14):
That's awesome.
You know the movie, of course,is about, you know, fraud and
corruption where you have, youknow, a group of young men
trying to get rich quick byconning people out of their
money.
Clip (14:24):
Harry, Harry, listen to this Jesus.
Taylor D. Adams (14:29):
Christ, what's going on over there?
Clip (14:31):
Do you see what I'm saying ?
People know the whole place isgoing nuts.
It's already at the point.
It just came off the restrictedlist.
Look, I'm advising all myclients to get in on this, and
heavy, Don't you see?
You get the same stock that wepicked up at eight.
Only now it's at four.
When it was at eight, I toldyou it was going to 20, right?
Yes?
you did.
Well, it's still going there,probably even higher now.
This doesn't change anything,except that you're going to be
making more money than you didbefore.
(14:52):
Harry, I liked it at eight, Ilove it at four.
Jerri Williams (14:57):
It's an average down for you, but is so
heartbreaking that I just lovedit.
I watched it again last nightin preparation for coming here,
and it got me again.
Taylor D. Adams (15:10):
Do you remember the first time you saw this?
Jerri Williams (15:14):
I don't recall the very first time, but it
would have been sometime like2003 or 4, because the movie
came out in 2000.
And I wasn't going out to themovies very often, so I had to
wait until it got toblockbusters.
So we're going back.
Yes To blockbuster time.
Taylor D. Adams (15:36):
I miss blockbusters so much yeah, so do
I.
Jerri Williams (15:38):
It was just kind of fun going through and
looking at the you know thecovers of the different videos
and making your choices.
So it would have been probablythree or four years after it had
come out.
But it was also after I hadworked this business of business
, telemarketing and so many ofthe things that were in the
(15:59):
movie.
I had experienced myself ininvestigating this case, which I
worked on for three years, ohwow.
Taylor D. Adams (16:08):
So I can't remember within the movie how
long, how long of a time thingstake.
But, and also, the FBI is like,not, it's not.
There's not a lot of FBIpresence in this movie.
They're there because theyserve an important purpose.
But is three years a normalamount of time to try and prove,
(16:32):
gather enough evidence for acase like this?
Jerri Williams (16:34):
Well, my case was much larger.
In the movie in Boiler Room,they're investigating one boiler
room, one firm, yeah, one firm,and mine.
I went after 14 at the sametime, whoa, so that's why it
(16:54):
took so long.
Taylor D. Adams (16:55):
That's why it takes a long time, right.
Jerri Williams (16:56):
And because I had this undercover phone bank,
that should I explain the casePlease?
I would love to hear it.
So it was business-to-businesstelemarketing fraud.
So, somewhat like whentelemarketers call individuals,
there are people who are sittingin a boiler room or a call
(17:19):
center and they have these leadsof businesses throughout the
country and, instead of sellingstock or investments like they
are in boiler room, they wereselling industrial products and
so their whole thing was to getto the procurement officer or
the maintenance person in thisparticular business, whether it
(17:44):
be a school or just a largecorporation.
They were trying to get to theperson that was in charge of
ordering industrial productslight bulbs, cleaning solutions,
duct tape, things like that.
And, matter of fact, the casewas called Operation Duct Tape,
because in the FBI when you havea large case you get a code
(18:07):
name.
So it was Operation Duct Tapeand the whole purpose of the
person that was calling was toget to the procurement officer
and bribe them.
Bribe them to then approveinvoices for products that were
obviously overpriced, usuallythe minimum 10 times what it
(18:31):
would cost you to purchase thatin a legitimate place.
Okay, and so the whole purposewas to bribe them, to get them
to approve the invoice and, at apoint where maybe they were
getting too much being shippedto them, just improve the
invoice and not even ship themerchandise.
(18:52):
And they were being bribed withgift certificates from big
stores like sears sears, I don'teven think sears is still
operating I can't say yes or no,but Sears and your kind of like
Home Depots and things likethat.
They were sending them giftcertificates so they could get
(19:13):
things like big screen TVs,refrigerators, riding lawnmowers
, washer and dryers.
So this was being sent to theprocurement officer at their
home.
Okay, and I believe they mighthave used this term in Boiler
Room, but they were looking fora taker.
So when you made that initialcall, you knew that your
(19:41):
procurement officer that youwere talking to as the
salesperson was a taker.
If he allowed you to get hishome address so that he could
mail these gift certificates totheir home, then you knew
somebody was a taker.
They were willing to take abribe in order to improve these
invoices and it was millions andmillions of dollars and for
some reason, I don't, myunderstanding was that
(20:03):
Philadelphia was like the centerfor this type of scam.
Okay, there were lots and lots,and that's where you were
working and that's where I wasworking in Philadelphia.
And so once I heard about it,once I learned about it, we
decided to do this operation,this Group 2 undercover
operation, where we luckily wentafter one person first, which
(20:25):
is like in boiler room.
There are so many similaritiesbut we went after one person
first, or one organization, onetelemarketing firm first, and
then we use those twoindividuals the owners to become
cooperating witnesses,individuals, the owners to
(20:47):
become cooperating witnesses.
And then I was able to get themto pass out leads to all these
other organizations that theywere connected to.
They thought they were callingpeople all over the country and
they were really calling me.
And so everybody who manned thephone banks, these fictitious
companies, fictitiousorganizations.
(21:08):
When we picked up the phone, webecame a procurement officer
who was very, very greedy.
I was more than happy to acceptthe gift certificates, to
ignore invoices and approveinvoices Wow.
(21:32):
So you were an actor.
Yeah, which is really fun andnot as dangerous.
Especially over the phone,because I was doing it over the
phone, yeah that's voice actingthat's great, so it was a lot of
fun, and so the reason it wenton for three years is because we
were getting all thesecompanies and so I couldn't take
(21:53):
down.
Once I had the information, uh,or the evidence for one company
, I couldn't take it downbecause I was still working on
other companies and actuallythey were stealing leads from
each other.
So maybe initially I believe itwas like maybe eight or ten
(22:13):
companies that we targeted yeahbut I ended up 14 because other
companies somehow got thoseleads.
Maybe salesmen moved to adifferent organization and they
started calling our fictitiousphones.
Wow.
Taylor D. Adams (22:37):
It was really interesting to a case that you
had recently worked as well, asthis emotional component Was
that kind of like.
That's what made you keep thismovie in mind the more time went
on.
Jerri Williams (22:53):
The fact that it was related to the type of work
I had done in the FBI was whatmade me interested in watching
it.
But once I watched it, it wasthe redemption story that got me
hooked.
I'm a girl for a goodredemption story, you know,
(23:13):
that's what I write.
The books that I've written areredemption stories.
That's what I like to read.
You know police procedurals orcrime stories where somebody you
know it may be the target, thebad guy, it may be the agent you
know has a story of redemptionand I love that.
And this movie goes way outwhen it comes to that the feel,
(23:39):
the need, the pain, the agony ofwanting to be better than you
are, the pain, the agony ofwanting to be better than you
are.
And that's what our maincharacter, whose name I can't
Seth, seth Seth Seth Davis, whois played by Giovanni Ribisi he,
just, he's such a great actor.
Yes, yeah, he's such a greatactor and I believe the story
(24:03):
and, yeah, I just love the movie.
Taylor D. Adams (24:08):
Well, you talked a little bit about how
the case is similar to somethingyou worked on.
You've authored many books,including this one you just
gifted me which I reallyappreciate, about kind of the
FBI myths and misconceptionsinside the TV shows and movies
we watch.
Misconceptions inside you knowthe tv and the tv shows and
movies we watch, so kind of onthis let's say, would you throw
(24:29):
your shoe at this movie or isthis?
No, this is like this is aproceed protocol wise, this is a
good fbi.
Jerri Williams (24:39):
Yes, that that is my rating system, because the
reality is that when it's notjust police officers and FBI
agents when we watch a crimestory, it's the same thing with
doctors when they watch amedical story, lawyers when they
watch a legal drama.
There are some times whenyou're watching this and you
think this person has doneabsolutely no research and you
(25:00):
want to take the book, if you'rereading the book and throw it
across the room.
Or if you're watching a TV showor movie, and you want to take
the book if you're reading thebook and throw it across the
room.
Or if you're watching a TV showor movie, you want to take your
shoe off and throw it at the TVbecause it is just so
unauthentic.
Taylor D. Adams (25:18):
Is that a word?
Yeah, sure, I think it is.
Jerri Williams (25:19):
Yeah, inauthentic, yeah, it's
inauthentic.
Taylor D. Adams (25:21):
Not authentic.
Jerri Williams (25:22):
Yeah, it's not authentic.
And you just think, couldn'tyou have just done a little
research?
And so in writing this book FBIMyths and Misconceptions a
manual for armchair detectives Ihave done the work for everyone
.
Taylor D. Adams (25:38):
You mentioned that you like the redemption
story.
What about?
Can you go any more specificsabout what about that redemption
story is so good for you towatch?
Jerri Williams (25:50):
well, I think probably because, knowing story
structure and that you shouldtry to strive for an arc.
You know an arc, you know wherethe your main characters again,
whether they're bad guys orgood guys start at one point and
(26:10):
go through a journey to anotherand the redemption plotline
serves that very well and I liketo see that journey.
I don't want just I'm not thatmuch into thrillers where
there's action, action, action,something happening every time,
(26:30):
because I really like thatpersonal story and so something
where they do show you that homelife.
You know police procedurals aregreat because if you do them
right you have that crime thatthe character is solving, but
(26:52):
you're also learning about themand how it affects.
As a matter of fact, josephWambaugh, rest in peace who
recently passed away.
Had this saying that I alwaysloved.
Passed away.
Had this saying that I alwaysloved and it is that a good
crime story is not how a copworks on a case, but how a case
(27:12):
works on a cop.
Taylor D. Adams (27:14):
Hmm, okay, yeah , I see that.
Jerri Williams (27:17):
And so that really is what redemption
stories are about.
It's whatever the person isdoing and going through, how
that helps them change.
Whether it's redemption storiesyou're supposed to change for
the good, I like to see thatjourney, that change.
Taylor D. Adams (27:36):
What about the?
When we talked off mic, youtalked about how you really
loved the.
You talked about how you reallyloved the relationship between
Seth and his dad, the judge.
What about that was sointeresting to you?
Jerri Williams (27:52):
It was dramatic and it was so real, and there's
not a lot of shows where they gointo such emotional depth when
they talk about some of thoseuncomfortable relationships
between fathers and son.
You might have one where thekid is trying to get the
father's attention and thefather's too busy with work, but
(28:16):
this one it's almost as if thejudge, who is the father, really
resents his son's lack ofambition.
Uh, I dropped out.
Clip (28:31):
Wanna tell us why?
Well, I gave it to you, dad,and it's just not.
It's just not for me, I see.
So that means you've been lyingto us for six months Six months
, seth.
Jerri Williams (28:42):
School's fine, dad.
My grades are good, dad.
All right, let's just leavethat for a second.
Uh, so you dropped out?
Clip (28:49):
That means you haven't been getting your student loan
checks right.
Is that right?
How you making a rent everymonth, seth?
Well, I'm running a businessand I'm just earning a living.
Jerri Williams (29:02):
Earning a living .
Is this what you call earning aliving?
Is that earning a living?
Earning a living Is this whatyou call earning a living?
Is that earning a living?
Huh, I mean, at one point inthe movie there's a scene where
he actually calls him anunbelievable piece of shit and
it was like whoa, this is afather talking about their son,
and there are other lines and itwas just so heartbreaking but
(29:27):
real.
I mean.
I don't know anybody thatpersonally from my family, but
I've heard of stories and heardof people talk about having
these really um, sad and youknow relationships with, with
parents and this one showed itin a way that was so raw and so
(29:49):
out there that it just it.
I mean it's as a mother of ofthree kids and, you know, a
grandmother.
It just really affected me andand always will.
Every time I watch, you know,the relationship between the
father and the son, the judgeand Seth will always tear at my
(30:11):
heart.
Taylor D. Adams (30:13):
Yeah, the relationship was super
interesting to me, especiallywhen we see, like the start of
the movie.
We see, you know, we have thislike flash forward of of like
there's a big party happening,All these stockbroker,
stockbroker dudes on a bus aboutto have a party, but then we
see Seth, kind of flashback, andhe's running his own business
(30:35):
Granted, it's, it's, it's acasino out of his house, Right.
Clip (30:38):
It's illegal.
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah.
Taylor D. Adams (30:41):
But I think that's what's so interesting is
that he's making money doingsomething illegal and his father
is disappointed in him.
Disappointed is probably themilder word for what he is
feeling.
He's disgusted yes, very muchso.
And so he, because he loves hisdad and wants to make him proud
, he decides to clean up his actin one way or another and finds
(31:05):
this in for a stock, being astockbroker basically, and when
that turns out to be alsoillegal, the fact that they were
both illegal, I think, isreally interesting with this,
because all Seth was trying todo was survive and make money,
which I think is superinteresting.
When his father talks about hislack of ambition, he's like, no
(31:26):
, he actually has it, it's justnot in a way that you approve of
.
And then when he tries to gofor lack of a better term
straight, he unknowingly is thendoing something illegal.
Jerri Williams (31:37):
And I think his motivation to me is really more
than just trying to make money.
He's trying to make money tomake his father proud.
That is his primary goal, andwhatever he does is to make his
father proud.
And the first one I don't knowwhy he didn't realize his father
(31:58):
was not going to be happy abouthim running an illegal casino,
you know, in his home.
But the second one again theword heartbreaking that he
thinks I finally made it.
You know, I'm going to take mySeries 7 and I'm going to become
a stockbroker, and his fatherwas proud.
(32:18):
His father was really excitedwhen he heard that he was going
to, you know, to do that, and hewas very, very proud.
And so when Seth slowlyrealizes that it's illegal too,
this is a fraud, he's actuallygot it.
I mean, he is just he's notsure what to do.
(32:41):
He wants to get out.
He begs his father to help himget out because it's happened
and he's so embarrassed.
Clip (32:51):
And the casino.
The casino was a fuckingbusiness and I ran it pretty
fucking well, dad, and to thinkthat I closed it for you.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
When did you close it?
And then I went after this jobbecause I thought it was what
you wanted me to be doing.
Seth Seth.
Wait a second.
When did you close it?
(33:12):
And I tried to make the changesthat you wanted me to, and I'm
leaving JT.
Now.
I'm just asking you for thisone thing, dad.
Just this one thing, please,just to help your son.
Taylor D. Adams (33:25):
Was there ever a point when you were first
starting out in your career, wasthere ever a goal to make your
folks proud?
Jerri Williams (33:32):
Oh, as soon as I became well, I think they were
proud when I went to collegebecause they didn't go to
college.
So you know, I think in mostcases, every child wants to make
their parents proud.
They want to show their parentsthat the values and you know,
(33:53):
and the love that you've givento me.
I'm returning that by being anupstanding citizen in the
community.
So, yeah, we all want to makeour parents proud and when I
became an FBI agent, I thinkthey were extremely proud.
They were there with me when Iwas sworn in I.
(34:15):
You know I have a picture thatI keep.
Oh, that's so cool.
Neither of them are still alive,but they were very, very very
proud.
Taylor D. Adams (34:22):
So I kind of want to dive in a little bit
more about kind of with GiovanniRibisi's character.
I don't it's like there's kindof a fully realized redemption,
because the movie ends kind ofabruptly.
Yes, it does, and so we don'treally get to see, like the the
(34:44):
the aftermath of his choices,but we do get to see the thing
that sparks him to kind ofchange his ways and also go to
his father and try to try to gethim to help him, and then the
father gets caught on on tape Iwant you to testify.
Clip (35:04):
What are you offering?
Full immunity and what?
What happens with my father?
I mean, he won't do any time,sir.
I haven't done anything legal.
So then what's the deal?
Then the deal is I lose myjudgeship, just going along for
the ride.
I have nothing to do with that,excuse me.
What is that supposed to mean?
You're going to release thetape to the press.
(35:27):
Makes your case much moreglamorous with the involvement
of a federal judge.
Taylor D. Adams (35:30):
It's so interesting to me that this
movie decides not to show us howthe case is resolved.
How would this case resolve, doyou think?
Jerri Williams (35:42):
Well, that was the one thing about the movie
when we get into how I like toreview movies for teachable
moments.
Seth's relationship in the FBIkind of was off Because Nina
Long, wonderful actress, but Idon't understand why they went
to her when they could have gonedirectly to Seth, you know, and
(36:05):
gathered a lot of thatinformation.
But I think his redemption doestake place in the movie when he
starts to see these clues thatit's illegal and he continues to
search them out.
I think we would not have calledthat redemption if he saw
(36:26):
something and he ignored it yeah, that's true, but the fact that
he kept looking and keptfinding and kept searching for
what was illegal and how hecould get out of this.
Of course he was trying to getout of it in a way where he
would still make some money, butthe redemption, I think, is
(36:49):
solidified when he goes out ofhis way to get the money back
from the one victim whose lifehe's destroyed by taking their
life savings.
Clip (36:59):
His name is Harry Renard.
I don't know him.
Well, I think you should,because we're about to lose him
and he dropped $50,000 on FerroTech this week alone.
And you want to do what?
Well, I want to keep him here.
I think that we should give hima chunk of the MedPAD and IPO.
We don't just hand out an IPOto somebody who had a bad day in
(37:19):
the market.
Look, michael, this guy is afucking whale and he's going to
do an obscene amount of businesswith this firm.
You're somehow just sure ofthis.
Yeah, the guy completely trustsme.
He doesn't even need the money.
He owns the biggest foodscompany in Wisconsin.
Jerri Williams (37:36):
So I do even need the money.
He owns the biggest foodscompany in wisconsin, so I do
think the redemption is shown inthe movie.
Taylor D. Adams (37:39):
Okay, yeah, you know.
Yeah, you're right.
Jerri Williams (37:39):
I think what I think of is like I wanted to see
all the guys go I wanted to seethe whole firm just get burned
to the ground well, you saw thatin a sense, when the caravan
yeah cars pulled into theparking lot and you know what
was going to happen next.
Yes, for me, that would havemade the whole movie.
You know what was going tohappen next?
Yes, for me, that would havemade the whole movie.
You know, to continue on to allof that next phase.
(38:01):
That would have made it a realFBI movie for me.
Um this one is really features.
You know our has an FBI elementto it, but it is not an FBI
movie.
Yeah.
Taylor D. Adams (38:15):
Cop shows and movies have just been around
forever, like it's it's a bigthing, it's, it's rife material
for procedural shows to showjust really good stories.
We like as audiences, we likeseeing people who are good at
their jobs, regardless of whatthat job is.
Um, but there's also like a lotof I mean, mean I don't the
(38:36):
popular term with like showslike Law and Order and stuff
like this, with like a lot ofstuff that Dick Wolf creates.
It's kind of this like the thiscopaganda model where, like,
we're portraying our heroes aspolice officers.
You know, we want to celebratethe renegade who believes he's
above the law because he getsresults.
Is there anything that you'veseen, show or movie-wise, where
(38:56):
you see something along thoselines that you personally feel
is detrimental to almost like alaw enforcement reputation?
Chicago, okay, chicago.
Pd yeah, okay.
Jerri Williams (39:11):
Because there is a corruption and an
undercurrent of doing whatevermeans is necessary to get the
bad guy.
I've only watched that showonce or twice and it turned me
off right away, you know, tothink that people are watching
this and thinking that thisunderhanded way of going about
(39:37):
justice, you know, is acceptable.
And so there are TV shows thatshow that, in a more of a
conspiracy where everybody'sinvolved in this activity, that
turns me off.
Of course you know everybody'sgoing to have.
That turns me off.
(39:57):
Of course you know, you knoweverybody's going to have.
In every situation there aregoing to be people that, uh, are
going to go off the the thepath that they're supposed to be
on yeah, and so showing that asan individual and then, of
course, following through andshowing that person, get you
know the consequences of that.
I love those stories, but onewhere you have somebody who's
(40:20):
supposed to be the good guy butis all doing all this
underhanded and bad stuff behindthe scenes.
That turns me off.
Taylor D. Adams (40:29):
Yeah feel like there's I feel like there's
almost this modern sense ofwatching um, watching someone
who has a certain profession,whose job is to fight crime or
do good or whatever it is.
(40:50):
There's almost like an escapistmentality where we want to see
the ideal version of how thosethings happen, like we don't
want to see as much as we youknow, we might have a bit, a
little bit of rebellious spiritagainst.
Some of us have a rebelliousspirit against authority and all
this other stuff.
I feel like, at at the verybase level, we all want to see,
(41:13):
like you said, quote, quote,unquote.
Justice come full um is.
Is there anything I mean youmentioned chicago pd?
Is there anything that we'rekind of as viewers when we watch
shows like this?
Is there anything we should beaware of about what might
constitute a quote, good or badrepresentation of law
(41:38):
enforcement?
Jerri Williams (41:41):
Reality.
You know you don't of course,as creators.
You know as novelists orscreenwriters.
You know you want to use yourimagination to create your story
, but you can also look at whatis happening for real to get
(42:04):
that story foundation and so,hopefully, when you have a bad
cop, the reason that you knowthat person's a bad cop is
because of the consequences thatthat person has faced.
We want that.
Taylor D. Adams (42:24):
That's for sure .
Jerri Williams (42:25):
It doesn't always happen, but we want that.
It's also very American to wantstories to end happily.
Taylor D. Adams (42:36):
I mean.
Jerri Williams (42:36):
I've watched foreign films and they end with
the person that you've beencheering for the whole film
having something terrible happenand you're like what?
That's not what I wanted.
No, that's not what I wanted atall, all and so, but we like
(43:00):
that, we like a happy endinghere and so, um, the happy
ending for me in a show thatshows law enforcement acting
badly is to make sure those lawenforcement officers are receive
consequences they're heldaccountable.
Taylor D. Adams (43:12):
Yeah, I feel like that's.
Yeah, I agree with you there,like I want, it doesn't matter
what what color uniform you'rewearing, or if you're wearing a
uniform at all.
Like if you do something bad,we all want people those people,
to be held accountable,regardless of who they are.
Jerri Williams (43:31):
And going back to the movie in Boiler Room, you
see that.
You see that the people thatdid wrong are going to be held
accountable.
Taylor D. Adams (43:41):
Do you have a favorite moment or scene from
this film?
Jerri Williams (43:48):
It's that heartbreaking scene where Seth
goes to the judge and admitsthat it's wrong and he is crying
, he's sobbing, he's begging hisfather to help him.
I mean, this, he's a young man,but he is a man and for him to
(44:12):
now revert to the most child andchild is not in a negative way.
But this, this is a young, thisis a boy crying and asking and
begging for his father's love.
That scene, I mean, it's justso well acted, you know, and I I
(44:32):
think for me.
A lot of times when I'mwatching a show, there are
things in it that take me out ofthe story, and this is one that
put me so deep in that storythat it's become one of my
favorites.
Taylor D. Adams (44:47):
You bring up a good point about just the child
aspect.
I think everyone other than thejudge in this movie and the FBI
agents or everyone involvedwith the JT Marlin is a child.
That that is how I am seeing.
You know, when Seth goes overto you know one of the head
guys's house and they're alllike watching.
(45:08):
They're watching the WallStreet or they talk about Glenn
Gary, glenn Ross.
You know they're eating pizzaand there's like nothing set up
in the entire house but a couchand a TV.
Jerri Williams (45:23):
Seth.
What's up?
Man Wait outside.
Clip (45:25):
I thought you weren't going to make it.
Man, sit down, grab a slice,have a beer.
You think he fucked?
Hannah, or you think she fuckedher Both of them.
He's just moving in.
What do you?
Taylor D. Adams (45:35):
mean he's been there eight months.
When I was apartment hoppingwhile I was in college and
recently after college, I didn'tunpack either.
But yeah, I was like in myearly 20s, like you're still
you're not developed yet, likeyou're still figuring stuff out,
which I think is so importantto kind of showcase those kind
of individuals in this movie andhow young they are when they're
putting on a performance of howthey think an adult should act.
Jerri Williams (45:58):
So there is a line in the movie where Seth is
told that he needed to act as if.
Act as if you're rich, act asif you're the best investment
stockbroker there is to put onthat air.
It's almost like the uh, thefake it till you make it yeah
and I think that is one of thethings that you see throughout
(46:23):
the movie when you talk aboutthese guys that you know are
trying to live large, butthey're really boys.
You know young boys acting asif they're men yeah, a yeah 100.
Taylor D. Adams (46:38):
That's what I was getting.
The whole time I was like theseare kids.
These are children trying to,they're when they're on the
phone, pretending that thesethings like that's part of sales
, um, try to.
I don't think.
I don't, can't remember if theyuh say this in this movie, but
it's just the first job I everfull for a time, full-time bob
ever had.
I was a car salesman and thesales technique was to get
(47:01):
somebody to say yes three timesto anything and then you got him
on the hook and I'm like that'sit brought me back to that way
of thinking where you can saythe goal is for you to say
whatever you need to in order toget your, your mark or whoever,
to say yes three times.
And the fact that these aresuch young people just doing
(47:26):
what they've been like, beenwhat they feel like success is,
and it's not even just becausetheir boss is telling them that.
It's because, like, what'simportant, money is important
and what's out right now, likethese, the, or what's out within
the past decade, like thesemovies that portray success,
these movies that kind of we cantake the wrong message from,
(47:47):
like I know plenty of peoplewatch Wolf of Wall Street and
take the wrong message from thatmovie.
The wrong message from thatmovie and it's just super
fascinating to me that we've gota movie about that and then
your central character realizeshow wrong everything is and
breaks away.
Jerri Williams (48:04):
And that may be what I love about this movie,
because you're right.
In Wolf of Wall Street, I mean,they celebrate this gluttonous
need for money and stuff and yousee that in Boiler Room, but
then you get to see the otherside of it.
(48:24):
That is probably.
You know what you just remindedme.
My very first job wastelemarketing Really, and get
this was telemarketing Really,and get this.
I sold Sears maintenanceagreements to people who had
just purchased, you know, washmachines and dryers.
(48:45):
Are you sure you weren't partof a con?
I work for Sears but I'm surewe use some of those and it's
not like I forgot about that.
But you know, connecting that,that first job to this movie and
my career kind of came fullcircle.
Yeah, it's also the first well,the only time I was ever fired
(49:09):
too.
Oh so it was my first job, Okay,I worked at in high school.
I had to go to this littleoffice and get on the phone with
the lead card to people who hadjust recently purchased.
This is amazing that I'mthinking about this two or three
(49:32):
year extended warranty service.
And a lot of times people youknow the machine wasn't working
right, it had already had to beserviced, and you know so they
were irate, you know.
Oh, while you're on the phone,let me tell you the knob came
off, you know, and so they'reyelling at you.
And so one time a customer wasyelling at me and had slammed
(49:55):
the phone down and hung up.
And after they hung up I saidsomething and slammed the phone
down and hung up, but I wasn'ttalking to the client, but my
boss thought I was.
I got fired, Wow.
But you know what?
Taylor D. Adams (50:12):
Yeah, I hated that job.
I mean, yeah, I imagine whenyou took that you were like, oh,
this is the career I'm going tohave.
Jerri Williams (50:19):
Yeah, Telemarketing is a hard job and
so just having to take thatbreath and pick up the phone and
dial it again, knowing thatyou're going to have to make
hundreds of calls to get thatone, yes, is very, very
difficult.
So not that I feel sorry fortelemarketers I'm.
(50:44):
You know, when I get a call,luckily on the cell phone, you
know they tell you right nowprobably spam and say you can
ignore it.
Taylor D. Adams (50:50):
Yeah, potentially spam.
I get that a lot yeah.
Jerri Williams (50:53):
But yeah, yeah, that's really strange.
I forgot about that.
That's funny how it works out,maybe that's why I like this
movie so much.
Taylor D. Adams (51:01):
I like to think that for me at least, like
professionally, when I go fromone long term gig to another,
whether it's like it's devotingall of my time and I'm getting
paid, or it's just a passionproject that I'm really into, I
find that whatever I'm I work onnext has built upon what I've
(51:22):
previously worked on and it justkind of goes and goes, and goes
and goes, and so that's how I Imean, that's kind of what.
What happened with you, atleast from this kind of like you
know, um yeah, fromtelemarketer to FBI agent who
worked on a telemarketing scam,who then loves this movie?
I think it makes total sense,okay.
Jerri Williams (51:38):
Wow, thank you.
How much did I owe you for thistherapy session for me to find
my innermost motivation?
Taylor D. Adams (51:47):
You can donate at patreoncom slash film nuts.
This was so much fun.
I'm so glad you came on theshow and I can't thank you
enough, and I'm really lookingforward to reading your book FBI
Myths and Misconceptions amanual for armchair detectives.
Oh man, I can't wait to solve acrime after this.
Thanks, jerri, you're welcome.
(52:11):
The reason I love doing the showis that everyone has different
reasons for enjoying what theylove and sometimes on the show
my guest is able to discovereven more of those reasons and
I'm not going to lie, it feelspretty good if I'm the one
helping someone else deepentheir love for their favorite
movie or favorite TV show.
I think it's incredibly coolhow our upbringing, our job, our
(52:34):
goals and much more influencewhat we love to watch.
A huge thanks to Jerri forchatting with me today and a
$50,000 stock option to you forjoining us in our little
discussion.
Before you go, please check outJerri's podcast FBI Retired
Case File Review and the manybooks she's written.
(52:54):
You'll find a link to all thatstuff in the show notes.
If you enjoyed the show today,please go ahead and subscribe on
your favorite podcast platformof choice to stay up to date on
all of our episodes and if youhappen to be listening to this
on Apple Podcasts, please leavea rating and review.
We really appreciate it and ithelps us get noticed by more
awesome people like yourself,and I produce all these episodes
out of my own pocket, so if youwant to help support the show,
(53:18):
please consider backing us onPatreon.
For more info on that, checkout the show notes or visit
patreoncom.
Slash film nuts, our theme thisseason, is brought to us by J
Mac, our artwork is designed byMadungwa Subuhudi, our head of
production is Keaton Lusk, andall episodes of the film nuts
podcast are are produced andedited by me, taylor D Adams.
If you want to get in touch,you can email filmnutspodcast at
(53:40):
gmailcom or follow us onInstagram and TikTok at
filmnutspodcast.
And don't forget to join theNuthouse Discord community
absolutely free by checking outthe link in the show notes.
There's all kinds of coolpeople in there who love movies
and TV and all kinds ofentertainment, so jump on in.
Thank you all again.
So much for joining me todayand until next time, I hope your
parents approve of all yourdecisions or not Uh, I don't
(54:03):
know your life.
Um, just do what makes youhappy and don't hurt anyone,
okay?
Um, I'm going to read uhJerri's book now.
Um, yeah, I'm excited.
Anyway, hope you'll join usnext time.
Bye.
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