March 27, 2024 • 46 mins
Have you ever been captivated by a criminal mastermind, only to find out their story was woven from lies? Join me as I sit down with Javier Leiva of the Pretend Podcast to peel away the layers of Frank Abagnale Jr.'s life, a story made famous by Spielberg's Catch Me If You Can. We grapple with the complex emotions of discovering that a tale we've rooted for might be a fabrication. Javier, who has faced Abagnale himself, shares his insight into the thrill of unmasking impostors, enveloping us in the enthralling world of those who deceive for a living.
Notey Notes:
Javier confronts Frank Abagnale Jr.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Taylor D. Adams (00:47):
Hi, I'm Taylor and welcome back to the Film.
That's why guest a show aboutwhy we love what we watch.
It's been a very nice break.
I'm glad to be back talkingabout more of your favorite
films and TV shows.
So let's get to it.
We all love rooting for theLittle Guy, the underdog, the
character that has the oddsstacked against them but ends up
(01:09):
succeeding no matter theobstacles in their way.
And we love it even more whenthese stories are based on true
events.
But what if that inspirationaltrue story turned out to be
completely made up?
Steven Spielberg's Catch Me ifyou Can, starring Leonardo
DiCaprio, tells the supposedlytrue story of teenage con artist
(01:30):
Frank Abagnale Jr, whosuccessfully poses as a pilot, a
doctor and a lawyer and managesto cash millions of dollars in
bad checks against bigcorporations.
It's a fun cat and mouse caperfilled with charm and wit.
But my guest today is on amission to reveal the actual
(01:50):
true story of Frank Abagnale Jr.
Javier Leiva hosts the PretendPodcast, a show about real
people pretending to be somebodyelse people like con artists.
Javier's show consistentlyranks as one of the top true
crime podcasts in the US, uk,canada, australia, and he even
has an entire season of thePretend Podcast dedicated to the
(02:12):
actual true story of FrankAbagnale Jr.
It's mind-blowing, trust me.
But despite Javier unveilingthat Catch Me If you Can is
almost an entire work of fiction, it's still one of his favorite
movies.
Obviously, I had to know why,so I invited Javier here to the
studio.
Javier and I chat about thejoys of recording in person if
(02:33):
it's possible to escape throughan airplane toilet and see how
he actually physicallyconfronted Frank Abagnale Jr.
So let's see what all this fussis about.
Here's Javier Leva talkingabout Catch Me If you Can on the
Film Nuts podcast.
Javier Leiva (02:52):
You know I'd prefer to have everything in
person, but I think it's afterthe pandemic and shutdown it
really, you know, limited to whoyou could talk to and then Zoom
kind of exploded and all thesevideo chat services exploded.
So I have a knack for huntingpeople down digitally instead of
(03:14):
like in person.
But I always pick one or twoseries a year that I fly out to
do the reporting and all that.
Yeah, because there's nothingreplaces those little moments,
little sounds that you get whenyou're out on the field.
Taylor D. Adams (03:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Javier Leiva (03:30):
You know I remember shooting.
I went down to Mississippi onceto interview this bounding
hunter and he's flipping throughall these warrants of people he
has to arrest and stuff likethat and you hear the paper
rustling.
Taylor D. Adams (03:40):
Yeah, the problem.
You can't replace that Like thetactile.
Yeah, you don't get that overZoom, you know?
Yeah, even if you put it in apost, it's just not the same.
No, it's not.
And now was that for PretendPod.
Javier Leiva (03:50):
Yeah, yeah, and it's great because then you get
to know the people in a deeperlevel, like I went to have lunch
with him, we recorded, I justset the recorder down there
we're eating waffles, thewaitress knows him.
You know what I mean.
Like those little moments justcan't get if you're just doing a
remote interview.
Taylor D. Adams (04:07):
So how did this curiosity and fashion
fascination for con artists comeabout for you?
Javier Leiva (04:15):
That's a great question, because I don't like
true crime and I'm not.
I am fascinated with conartists now, but I wasn't always
.
The quick story is that I hadcreated this idea for a podcast
called Pretend and it was reallyabout performing arts and
people pretending to be someoneelse, like ghost writers and
(04:35):
standup comedians and, you know,people on in the theater.
So it was never about conartists.
But then I went down to Miamito visit my family for Christmas
and everybody has a black sheepin the family.
Are you the black sheep?
No, but the black sheep of thefamily.
His name, you know, it's mycousin, you know.
(04:57):
And he was about to go tofederal prison and we all were
curious.
We all knew he was the badthings, but we didn't know
exactly what he did.
So I sat down with him and Isaid, hey, do you mind?
if I record our conversation andhe just told me for like two it
seemed like two hours, maybe itwas more he told me everything
from the time he was a smalltime crook, breaking into cars,
(05:19):
to breaking into houses, to thenstaging insurance fraud like
accidents and then to buying amedical clinic, hiring a real
doctor, writing opioidprescriptions to drug dealers
that they could sell out intothe streets.
And I was just like are youkidding me?
Wow.
Taylor D. Adams (05:35):
Yeah.
Javier Leiva (05:37):
And I said OK, I said this is what the podcast is
about.
It's about con artists, becausehe is such a sharp and Cubans
and the CHs and the SHS man.
He's so charming and he couldyou know when you're around him.
He's so friendly and he couldjust charm the pants out of you.
And at the same time, this is aguy that was heading to federal
(05:59):
prison.
He's OK, by the way, now he'sout of prison.
He's an entrepreneur using allthose con artists skills, but
like for legitimate business, asfar as we know.
Taylor D. Adams (06:12):
Well, yeah, hope everything stays on the
level yeah.
Javier Leiva (06:15):
But he inspired the podcast and at that moment
on I was like, ok, this is aboutcon artists.
And I was like it's such aflawed idea to like if I would
have really thought about it, Iprobably would have never done
this podcast.
Because, think about it, onceyou do one episode about con
artists and the show is calledpretend that everyone you
interview is going to know thatyou're interviewing them because
(06:35):
you think they're a con artist.
And I was like nobody's goingto want to come on my show.
No one's ever going to.
And here we are, like 16seasons later and I've talked to
a lot of con artists and I'malways surprised that they come,
they want to talk to me, theywant to tell their side of the
story and it's fascinatingfascinating that this thing is
(06:56):
still going.
Taylor D. Adams (06:57):
Yeah Well, congratulations.
16 seasons yeah, really cooland really impressive, as
someone who's in the middle ofhis fourth.
Javier Leiva (07:05):
I don't know how it happens, man, you just got to
keep doing it.
Taylor D. Adams (07:08):
Speaking of con artists.
This is.
This is wild to me, becausewhen I asked you to come on the
show and you're so gracious withyour time and I asked you what
movie you wanted to talk about,your instinctual answer was
catch me, if you can.
I knew you had done.
Got it, the hard physical copy,that's right.
I know you had done a lot ofwork around the mystery of Frank
(07:31):
Abagnale, yeah.
So first of all, I'm curious asif, if this is One of your
favorite movies, or is it amovie that has just consumed a
large portion of your careerlife because of your
investigation into the realFrank Abagnale?
Javier Leiva (07:51):
Both Okay.
Yeah, I loved the movie waybefore I knew the true story of
Frank Abagnale.
I still love the movie.
I watched the movie, enjoy it,but in a different way.
Right, it hits differently nowthat I know the truth about
Frank Abagnale.
But it doesn't take away fromthe quality of the movie and the
(08:13):
acting and the way StevenSpielberg put it together.
I mean it's still one of thebest movies in my opinion.
Taylor D. Adams (08:41):
And for our audience, who maybe doesn't know
the truth about Frank Abagnale,can you I know you've got a
whole season of podcastsdedicated to it Can you boil it
down to like two paragraphs ofwhat actually happened?
Javier Leiva (08:55):
Well, I wonder if this says based on a true story.
I don't know, but it wasmarketed as a true story.
It doesn't say it on the, yeah,the extraordinary true story of
a brilliant young master ofdeception.
Well, everyone knows that ifit's based on a true story,
Hollywood has to fudge it alittle bit.
They got to, like, condensecharacters and consolidate them
(09:18):
and then maybe console, compressa timeline.
Some things are true, somethings are maybe not true, but
we generally think that most ofthe story must be true, right,
and that's not the case withCatch Me, if you Can.
It is completely fictionalstory.
Okay, and that's because theguy, frank Abragnell, the real
(09:41):
guy, he made up maybe 90% ofthat story, of his life story,
like he never did any of thethings that he says.
Taylor D. Adams (09:49):
Because the movie's based on his
autobiography.
Right, right right?
Javier Leiva (09:53):
yeah, exactly, it's not like Steven Spielberg
saw this guy down the street.
He wrote in the early 80s.
He wrote an autobiographycalled Catch Me If you Can and
it tells this wild story ofFrank Abragnell posing as a
pilot, a doctor, a lawyer, aprofessor all while he was from
the age of 16 to 21.
And he's playing this game ofcat and mouse with FBI.
(10:13):
Eventually the FBI captures him, throws him in prison and then
they get him out of prison andrecruit him and he starts
working for the FBI.
He claims he wrote $2.5 millionin bad checks.
Just an amazing story, really.
But then you start thinkingabout it.
How can a 16-year-old pull allthis off?
(10:36):
And when you start digging inand looking into his story, it
turns out that some of it isreal but most of it is
completely made up.
And there's a guy, an author,named Alan Logan and he wrote
this great book about FrankAbragnell's real life story and
(10:57):
it didn't get much traction inthe media, like they wrote about
it a little bit here and there.
But this guy did this amazingexpose, didn't get a lot of
traction.
I didn't really believe it atthe time.
And Alan Logan said listen, doyour own research.
Try to recreate my research,and everything that I found
about Frank Abragnell ispublicly available information.
(11:19):
You could go right now and getit, request those documents and
you'll see that the guy made upmost of the story.
Taylor D. Adams (11:24):
So he was challenging you to almost like
recreate the research that hehad done.
Javier Leiva (11:28):
Yeah, it was crazy , and so I was like sure, I'll
take you up on your challenge.
And so I pulled a lot of thesame documents that he did.
He shared some with me, but forthe smoking gun I was able to
pull myself and it was a prisoncard, this little yellow piece
of paper, and it says FrankAbragnell and has dates on it.
(11:50):
And the dates are importantbecause it proves that he was in
prison from the age of 16 to 21, in and out of prison right.
Which means it's impossible forhim to have pulled off the
stunts that he claims he did.
Ok, so then that's interesting,right, but what's even more
interesting is what reallyhappened, and that's where the
(12:14):
story takes a wild turn, becausenot only is the story not true,
but what he was really up towas just completely bonkers.
Taylor D. Adams (12:24):
Well, let's see yeah.
I don't want to like you torecreate your own podcast on
this podcast, but like what aresome of the things that he was
up to?
Javier Leiva (12:31):
Well, ok, so let's talk about the things that are
true.
Ok, some of the things that aretrue.
He did pose as a pilot.
(13:05):
He went and got a pilot costumeNot a uniform or a costume and
he would take rides on otherplanes.
So like, let's say, he was aPan Am pilot and he would go on
another airline's jump seatright, and so then he would get
free rides that way.
That is true.
Ok, we know that, spoken tosome flight attendants that have
(13:29):
corroborated that, and we havepictures of young Abagnale
dressed as a pilot.
But here's where the storytakes a left turn.
He was in prison most of thattime, like I said, but every
time he would come out of prisonhe would get this pilot costume
and show up at different places.
Ok, one of the places that heshowed up was a kid's summer
(13:53):
camp in Houston Texas, rightoutside of Houston Texas.
All right, so this pilot showsup at a kid's summer camp.
He's like hey, I was furloughed, lost my job, I need some work,
can you guys hire me?
And they're like sure you couldwork at the summer camp.
We have pictures of FrankAbagnale at the summer camp and
he worked there and he woulddrive all the kids around and
(14:15):
this and that, and then heeventually stole a bunch of
camera equipment from the summercamp and took off with all this
gear.
So he's like stealing from asummer camp, that's one thing.
At one point he was in BatonRouge gets out of prison, shows
up as a pilot, meets this ladynamed Paula Parks, befriends her
(14:39):
.
She's a flight attendant.
They, you know, they, I guessthey go out on a date or
something, but nothing everhappens.
She takes him home to meet herparents and he met the parents.
Well, paula Parks, she's flyingher all around the country.
Guess who?
Shows up at her parents' housewhile she's not there Frank
Abagnale, dressed like a pilot.
The parents take him in.
This guy is living at Paula'shouse.
(15:01):
He's eating there for mamaParks is washing his dirty
clothes and guess what?
He's stealing checks from theircheckbook yeah, writing checks
to himself, and he gets arrested.
You know, during that time healso shows up at a kids, you
know, at a facility for disabledchildren working with children.
(15:25):
He was always surrounded bykids for some reason.
One time he got out of prisonwent to work at an orphanage,
again with the whole pilotcostume thing.
So this is a guy with thispattern of playing, dress up and
showing up where kids are.
And then I mean, if you want tokeep peeling back the layer, the
(15:47):
onion layers, I mean it turnsout that the family tree is
really interesting.
His brother was a real conartist, but not a flashy con
artist Like Frank Abagnale.
This guy kept it all underwraps until he passed away.
He faked his resume, worked asa therapist his entire career
without any license.
We spoke to his daughter.
Frank Abagnale's father wasknown to have ties to the mafia
(16:13):
and had, you know, some shadydealings.
I think that was portrayed inthe movie a little bit.
So there it's.
He's such an interestingcharacter.
It's just not the one from themovie.
Taylor D. Adams (16:25):
Well, yeah, so yeah.
Going back to the movie, though, like, do you remember the
first time you saw this?
Javier Leiva (16:33):
I don't.
You know.
I was trying to think of thefirst time I saw this movie.
I don't remember it came outlike what in the 90s, you know,
early 2000s, in the early 2000s.
Taylor D. Adams (16:44):
Yeah.
Javier Leiva (16:44):
I don't remember exactly where I've seen it, but
I've seen it so many times.
It's one of the few movies.
You know that we that you gowatch over and over again and
just enjoy all the time.
So I don't remember, but it'salways been there.
It's always been part of mylife, right?
Taylor D. Adams (16:58):
So, upon your, I guess, frequent revisits of
the movie has, have you takensomething different from it each
time, or also go watching itmultiple times?
Have you also been going goingthrough the research or finding
out who Frank Abagnale reallywas, and does that?
Did that change your opinionAll?
Javier Leiva (17:17):
Yeah, the only thing I still enjoy the film,
but the only thing that bothersme now watching it.
I can't help.
But it bothers me because Iknow the real story is how they
portrayed Frank Abagnale's mom,paulette, in the movie.
They portray her as thisadulterous woman, wife that you
know.
She's selfish.
(18:16):
That was, from what I could tell, far from the truth, in fact,
court records show that, youknow, it was probably Frank's
dad who was having the affairand but that's just not the way
the movie portrayed it.
And for me, you know, I don'tknow.
I guess I have a goodrelationship with my mom, but
like, let's say, stevenSpielberg wanted to make a movie
(18:36):
about my life and and heportrayed my mom, as you know,
almost like this, like and anunflattering life.
Taylor D. Adams (18:44):
Yeah, I would have issues with that, and Frank
Abagnale has never seen a movielike this before.
Javier Leiva (18:49):
He's never spoken out about that, the real guy.
He's only spoken out about theway his father was portrayed.
But I would have.
I would take great issue withSteven Spielberg portraying my
mom, or any director.
And it's just kind of weird.
You know, like that, that's oneissue from the movie that I
think he would take issue with,but he doesn't.
Taylor D. Adams (19:10):
So you talked about that.
You do still enjoy this moviedespite knowing kind of a real
story.
But can you go into more detailabout how knowing the real
story has affected yourenjoyment of it?
Javier Leiva (19:22):
Yeah, I mean, you know I watch it and first of all
, I think that the fact that Leolooks nothing like Frank
Abagnale, it's almost like Idon't buy that.
It's based on a true story.
Once you know it's not based ona true story, it's a fantastic
work of fiction, right?
So it really doesn't affect myenjoyment of the film and part
(19:42):
of the reason is that the TomHanks character he's based off
of a real FBI agent, but therewas no cat and mouse chase in
real life.
So that whole you know TomHanks chasing him around the
world and stuff like that, thatnever happened.
(20:46):
So to me it just seems likealmost like parallel universes
and they don't conflict witheach other because they're so
different, you know.
Taylor D. Adams (20:54):
I was thinking about that, that watching this
movie.
I remember I think I've onlyseen it like two or three times
when it first came out in thetheater.
I remember really liking itlike enough to be like, oh yeah,
that's a good movie, like Iwill watch that movie again.
And I rewatched it recently andyeah, I think because I binged
your entire season, season 11,for 10.
(21:15):
And I was very much bothered byit.
Javier Leiva (21:19):
I was like couldn't get out of my head it
bothered you.
Taylor D. Adams (21:21):
Yeah, it bothered me because, but I think
, thinking back on it, if theyever did some kind of like
re-release of this movie andthey just took out based on true
events, I would have no issue,Right, Like I think that would
be it.
Like if I could erase from mymind that this was supposedly
based on a true story, I wouldthink it's a fantastic movie,
(21:42):
but like art doesn't reallyexist in a bubble, Like it's
influenced by it, I think thething is that you know, I
watched the Freddie Mercurymovie or any biopic.
Javier Leiva (21:52):
I haven't seen the Bob Marley movie or whatever it
doesn't.
Or I watched Lincoln and Idon't go back and research.
I mean I don't know.
Sometimes I'm like, was thatscene true?
I'll go back in Wikipedia orwhatever.
I think what bothers me aboutthis movie being based on true
stories, that we're celebratinga guy that not only he's not the
savvy con artist that we thinkhe is for the things that I was
(22:14):
describing about going back,getting out of prison, going to
seek the company of children.
I'm not implying that anythingwrong was happening there.
I'm not implying that at allbut this is not a very smart,
savvy con artist.
This is a guy that stole moneyfrom innocent people like Paula
Parks' family.
He stole money from investorswith these like these investment
(22:40):
deals, like doctors and realestate agents that still are old
and tens of thousands ofdollars that this guy has not
paid.
I mean he could just take theRolex off of his wrist and pay
back some of those loans, andthe point is there are real
victims still out there thatlost a lot of money because of
this guy and we're likecelebrating him.
(23:02):
That's probably what you'refeeling you know, that we're
celebrating a guy that's not ahero.
He's not even an anti-hero.
He would write bad checks usinghis real name.
Let's talk about that $2.5million that he supposedly stole
.
It wasn't $2.5 million, it wasa court record show that it was
(23:22):
maybe a little over $1,500.
And he would write checks usinghis own name.
I mean, I'm not a brilliantmastermind criminal, but I would
use somebody else's name.
Exactly yeah, so it's tough tocelebrate this guy's life.
Taylor D. Adams (23:37):
So this is more of a very broad question, with
the facts of this movie beingvery much fudged and in your
line of podcasting work andyou've talked a little bit about
this on your podcast this ideaof post-truth in this world that
we're living in, how importantis it that we, as an audience to
(24:00):
media, live-spree, engagements,articles, whatever how
important is it that we questionwhatever's being presented to
us as the truth.
Javier Leiva (24:09):
I mean, I think we should always question
everything that, even thingsthat you hear on a podcast.
You should question it, becausewhat we're doing is reliving
somebody's memory or recallingsomebody's memory, and memory is
such a flawed thing to beginwith.
So you know, like, if we kind ofmeet back in a month and try to
(24:29):
recount what we just did today,it might be very similar but we
might have different angles ofit, and so you always have to
question whether somebody'srecollection of something is
real.
I think the best way as anaudience, if Steven Spielberg
says that this is true, I thinkit's up to him to, and his team
(24:50):
to really make sure it'ssemi-true.
You know what I mean, like ifyou're gonna put that stamp that
it's based on a true story.
As a viewer, I think that ifyou hear something that just
sounds too good to be true, justdo a little bit of legwork.
It actually didn't take thatmuch work to find out the
information that Alan Logan andI found out about this, and it
(25:11):
turns out that there werejournalists way before us that
were looking into this.
So you could do a newspapercomsearch and you're gonna find
articles saying that this guy isprobably not who he says, he is
right and so.
But I think at the end of theday, since Memories Flood,
public records speak forthemselves.
They're like a little capturein a moment in time, and so if
(25:36):
you have real documents to backit up.
Taylor D. Adams (25:39):
I think you should trust that Such a weird
thing to say.
Like it seems so obvious thatlike, oh yeah, why don't you
like find the core of like whatactually happened and actually
happened, yeah, but who has timefor that right?
Like we take convenience forgranted, like much rather any
information be presented to usas opposed to us trying to find
out the real information.
(25:59):
And sometimes, when we try tofind out the real information on
our own, then that informationis wrong, right.
Javier Leiva (26:05):
Well, and just like before we started recording
, we were talking about thefloods in Dubai.
I started thinking to myself,what if that was like off-aik or
AI or something?
You know what I mean?
And I just told you the story.
I didn't fact check it, so nowI just spread some information.
Hey, there might be floods inDubai, I don't know.
Taylor D. Adams (26:20):
I don't know.
Javier Leiva (26:21):
I'm gonna go tell somebody else that there's
floods in Dubai, and that's howit happens, right?
This, like this ripple of-.
Taylor D. Adams (26:25):
That telephone game can kind of get out of hand
.
Javier Leiva (26:27):
Yeah, 100%, and I think we mean well.
But there are some real badactors out there.
I mean foreign entities, youknow, like China, russia.
We're trying to influence ournews cycle.
There are people who are tryingto spread misinformation for
whatever personal gain that theyhave.
But and a lot of us, we're justconsuming it, right, and we
(26:48):
don't even see it, we don't evenknow.
Once we get funneled, we don'teven know that we're in the
machine, right.
Taylor D. Adams (26:55):
Yeah, and sometimes we end up trusting we
end up being too trustingsometimes of just anything we
hear, and we don't even if theinformation is related to us in
a non you know nefarious way.
They're just relaying whateverthey heard or read or saw, and
then that's, you know thetelephone.
Javier Leiva (27:11):
But we live in that post-truth world, and so we
have to know how to navigate itas consumers right.
Taylor D. Adams (28:09):
With all the smack.
We're talking about FrankAbagnale.
Do you have a favorite momentor scene from this movie?
Javier Leiva (28:15):
Yeah, oh man, I love.
Well, first of all, can I tellyou that my favorite scene is
probably the title sequence.
Taylor D. Adams (28:22):
Oh, so good.
Javier Leiva (28:23):
John Williams score doonananananana.
Taylor D. Adams (28:25):
I love that Such a great, such a great story
.
Javier Leiva (28:27):
And the animation I just for me grabbed new right
from the beginning.
I do love the scenes that wereshot at that old airport in New
York the name escapes me, butit's this beautiful architecture
and their, you know, tom.
Taylor D. Adams (28:43):
Hags.
Javier Leiva (28:43):
You know like finally, like kind of catches up
to him, and I just, oh, myfavorite scene, hold on.
Can we talk about the toiletscene?
Taylor D. Adams (28:54):
Yeah, you can talk about whatever scene you
want to.
I love that scene, yeah thetoilet.
Javier Leiva (28:57):
So the story is Frank Abagnale escapes, right,
he escapes to Europe, right, andthis part is true.
The real Frank Abagnale does goto Europe at one point, okay,
but like, that part is true, butthat's the end of the real
story, okay, but in the movie hegets caught, he gets thrown in
(29:17):
prison and some French prisonand Tom Hags comes, pulls him
out of jail.
They're transporting him backto the US, you know.
They're on the plane, andLeonardo DiCaprio, you know,
gets up and he uses the restroom.
Frank, come on now, frank.
(29:47):
In my head I was rocking mybrain of like what the inside of
a plane looks like.
Well, according to FrankAbagnale and we have, he said
this before that really happened.
That wasn't just like StevenSpielberg pulling this out of
nowhere.
Apparently, he really escapedthrough the toilet.
Well, the problem is that thereare people that listen to these
(30:09):
claims, people that actuallyare engineers and know how
planes work and stuff like that.
They're like no, it's actuallyimpossible.
Taylor D. Adams (30:15):
I was gonna say clearly there's gotta be yeah.
Javier Leiva (30:18):
And what a nasty little thing to sneak out of,
but anyway.
So when he started realizingthat people were questioning
whether that was true or not,then he says he didn't escape
from the toilet, he escaped fromthe kitchen galley or something
.
So the story kind of changed alittle bit.
So if you asked him today, hedid not escape from the toilet,
but if you asked him in the 80she totally escaped from the
(30:39):
toilet.
Taylor D. Adams (30:40):
That's fascinating.
So, yeah, that scene was likewait, it's not the drain,
because that's why it was so.
It's like the underneath of thetoilet mechanism is somehow
opened into the wheel well, of aplane.
I was like that's crazy, yeah,doesn't make any sense, doesn't
work like that.
Yeah, and I don't know planes,so that's the problem.
So I asked this question of ourguests how would you recommend
(31:04):
this movie to someone who hasn'tseen it?
And with all that we've talkedabout, is there any kind of
caveat that you would give whenyou would recommend it?
Javier Leiva (31:11):
Just watch it as if there were a work of fiction
and you're going to love thisfilm.
I mean, it's a great film, butthe problem is that if you had
any expectation that it was real, you're going to be sorely
disappointed.
It is so not real.
Taylor D. Adams (31:26):
So how has it been possible for Kind of a
vague question, but how has itbeen possible for con artists to
use storytelling as a weapon tolike enhance their own lore of
legend?
Javier Leiva (31:40):
Yeah, I mean it's if you could grab somebody with
a great story.
People love stories.
It's like we're like a moth toa flame, right?
People love a good story.
And if you are having enoughcharisma and you're on the
Johnny Carson show and you'retelling the world all these
great stories, we want tobelieve.
Especially a story like this,where you think that there are
(32:02):
no real victims.
You know that this was allinnocent crimes.
No one really got hurt.
You're like, oh well, then weromanticize it right?
Con artists don't want to evertell you that they really hurt
people.
That would not make great sales.
Imagine a Ponzi schemeertelling you about all these
(32:24):
investments he did wrong.
No, a Ponzi schemeer is goingto tell you about all these
great opportunities, theseamazing returns.
They fill your head up with allthis hope and.
But they also do the oppositetoo.
Like con artists could use fearas a way to motivate they.
I've noticed this is a commonthread with con artists.
They disarm you by, let's say,they buy you dinner.
(32:47):
They're always the first onesto pick up the check.
They give you gifts and stufflike that, because when it's
time to ask you for something,for money or whatever you're
like oh yeah, they're good forit.
They bought me dinner right.
Like they are always picking upthe check, they're always
giving me gifts.
You know what I mean.
So they've earned your trust,and so I've noticed that about
(33:07):
like as a common thread to thepeople that I cover, at least.
Taylor D. Adams (33:14):
So when you're watching this movie, do you find
yourself identify now, identifyor rooting for anyone?
Yeah, as they're watching themovie.
Javier Leiva (33:25):
Well, you know you're this movie.
You're rooting for LeonardoDiCaprio, Frank Abagnale, you
want him to get away with it.
And I think that that I meanit's the anti-hero stuff, right,
like we rooted for Walter Whitein Breaking Bad, tony Soprano,
you know?
And don't you get disappointedat the end of the day when you
(33:47):
start realizing, okay, so whenyou're in it, right, like when
you're watching the Sopranos,you're so in Tony's
gravitational force, right, andthen the show ends and you're
like, wow, that's the guy that Iwanted to win you know what I
mean.
Like isn't that weird, but youhave to step away from it for a
while.
It's almost like the magnetismthat a cult leader has.
You know, while you're aroundit they smother you and so you
(34:11):
don't see the danger that you'rein until, like, you escape and
then all of a sudden it makes alot of sense.
So I think that you know, whenyou're rooting for Frank
Abagnale, you're caught up inthe story and then the whole
glamor of this, like this chase,and then you realize, well, the
real guy.
Why do you think he was posingas a doctor?
You know what was he trying todo.
(34:34):
What was he trying to do as anattorney?
You know what I mean.
Taylor D. Adams (34:37):
Like, when you start, like, realizing these
things, yeah, and like, theweird part of the movie is that
a my recent recollection ofwatching a couple of days ago
was basically that he was kindof inspired to take on these
different roles by watching TV.
Javier Leiva (34:53):
Like, well, probably some of that.
And then he'll also tell youthat you know he was so
heartbroken by his parents'divorce.
You know he paints thisdramatic picture that he's in
the courtroom and you knowthey're like you know he runs
out of this courtroom when hisparents get divorced and he
doesn't know where to go and heimmediately, you know, gets the
(35:13):
pilot suit and just goes.
It's almost like this, likecrazy fan, that he's living out
this crazy fantasy.
But yeah, every superhero needssome sort of motivation, right?
Yeah?
Taylor D. Adams (35:26):
that origin story, yeah that origin story.
Javier Leiva (35:28):
He definitely created it.
Now, the funny thing aboutFrank Abagnale is that the
origin story, this whole, thisfolklore that he's created for
himself it has, there's a pointwhen it all starts to happen.
That story wasn't always there.
Okay, there was a point in time, remember, when he was at the
summer camp, when he was doingall these things at the
(35:49):
orphanage, that story didn'texist.
There was a point where it wasalmost like a flip of a switch
that this story comes to lifeand it's right around the time
where he gets married.
And so a lot of people thinkthat what did his wife have
something to do with craftingthis story?
Did a local journalist Cause?
(36:10):
The first time we hear thewhole story about the pilot,
doctor, lawyer, professor thingwas after this article was
written by this local journalist.
And so it's like where did thisfantasy come from?
And it happened very quickly.
It wasn't like he slowly addedto the story.
No, it was just like one dayhe's a small time crook, the
(36:32):
next day he's this likebrilliant con artist on the
Johnny Carson show.
It just happened, just likethat.
Taylor D. Adams (36:37):
Wow, some good publicity work.
Javier Leiva (36:39):
Yeah, it is brilliant, and I actually spoke
to one of the women that I thinkit was his agent or somebody
that was trying to get himbooked on the Tonight Show.
If she would have never bookedhim on the Tonight Show, I don't
think there would be a FrankAbagnale.
I don't think there would be a.
Catch Me, if you Can.
It's actually Inadvertentlycreated a monster.
Taylor D. Adams (37:01):
Yeah, but apparently a monster, who then
got turned into a character weall root for in a movie and a
Broadway musical that I keepforgetting about that.
That's wild, I think it's likethat.
That feels perverse to me yeahthere is.
Javier Leiva (37:14):
I just saw a posting on Newspaper like some
sort of online magazine.
They're looking for the part ofFrank Abbott.
They're auditioning for.
Frank Abbott's mom, oh wow Forfor the musical and I almost
want to tell them you know, Doyou want to hear the real story
about the mom?
Because she's nothing like theway the movie portrays her to be
(37:34):
.
That's so wild.
Taylor D. Adams (37:35):
Yeah, it's.
You mentioned earlier, speakingof the, how the mother is
portrayed.
You mentioned earlier that youdon't want Steven Spielberg to
portray your mom in a way Right,and that's particular away.
But I came up with thisquestion I want to know who
would play you in the movieabout exposing Frank Abbott.
Javier Leiva (37:53):
Okay, I my kids say that I look like Lin-Manuel
Miranda or whatever so we'rejust gonna go with him and if
he's not available, ray Romanoor.
Taylor D. Adams (38:05):
I, I haven't who would play.
Who would play?
Frank Abbott now.
Javier Leiva (38:09):
Hmm, that's a good one.
It would probably be like SethRogen or something you know like
interesting.
Okay, I don't see LeonardoDiCaprio at all playing Frank
Abbott now I, but this movieneeds to be made because this
was the real catch.
Maybe can't like nobody waschasing him back in the day, but
Alan Logan and I have beenchasing this guy for a couple
(38:32):
years now.
Taylor D. Adams (38:33):
I was doing some research before our chat
Just on Frank Abbott, nowlooking up bunch of stuff I
Immediately thought of, if thatmovie was about right now, like
this time of exposing him, Ithink Henry Winkor could play a
really good Frank Abbott.
Javier Leiva (38:46):
Oh yeah, like the older abbeck, I love Henry
Winkor.
You make a great Frank Abbott.
Taylor D. Adams (38:51):
Now that would be awesome you actually went to
a Like confront Frank Abbottnail in person, right.
Javier Leiva (38:59):
Yeah, you know, I couldn't do this whole series on
Frank Abbott now without FrankAbbott now Right, like there's a
lot of historical documents, soI reached out to him.
Actually I reached out to himAt the time I actually thought
that this movie was real.
So I I reached out to him thatwe all did.
I admired the story and Ithought he's like the biggest
badass Con artist of all time,and so I reached out to him and
(39:21):
he said no.
And then, if he would have saidyes, I would have still
believed the story.
I would have had him on my showand just talk to him, right,
and none of this would havehappened.
But he said no, and that's whenI started looking into it,
that's when I found Alan Logan.
And here we are right.
So he said no, but I could notdo the series without him, right
?
So I knew that he was speakingat the MGM in Las Vegas.
(39:45):
It's huge auditorium.
He did this like our keynotespeech.
He's a great speaker.
But I waited for him outside ofthe stage, you know.
I had a feeling that here we go, right, you know.
And so I met him out in thehallway and I made sure I had
like the biggest, baddestmicrophone I could find, like a
big boom mic.
(40:06):
So he could say oh, I you lookofficial.
Yeah.
I was like, yeah, like we'redefinitely recording this right,
and so and you know, I had mycamera in my pocket you know I
looked very unassuming and I hithim with a softball question.
I said hey, frank, your storyis so unbelievable, can you tell
me about it?
He started, you know, giving mehis canned answers and so I
(40:27):
knew I didn't have much time, soI was a friendly reporter.
Now second question was a hardone.
I said Frank, how was it thatyou were posing as a pilot,
doctor, lawyer, professor, ifyou were in prison the entire
time?
He goes oh, no, I think you gotyour dates and times wrong.
I go no, actually I have yourprison records right here.
He's like, oh, and that's when,like, the people around him
(40:52):
start realizing that this wasnot a friendly interview like
his, like security detail.
No, it's just like the eventorganizers and the people, his
posse I don't know who thosepeople were, but anyway.
So they things start gettingtense and he answers my quite.
He gives me like this BSresponse and you know, and the
whole thing is caught on tape.
I put it on YouTube.
But yeah, I had to get him.
(41:12):
And you know, the funny thingis that my series on Frank
Abagnale ended but the but mylisteners, they're still fired
up about this.
And when he does speaking gigs,my listeners are confronting
him at these different events,really asking him like, hey, you
know, if this is a lie, can you, you know, and and and it's
(41:34):
amazing, because it's likepeople Feel like they've been
betrayed, you know, buying thisBS story.
Taylor D. Adams (41:41):
I mean, you know, it's like finding out
spoilers like Santa Claus isn'treally.
Javier Leiva (41:45):
Exactly, and that actually is.
You should read my YouTubecomments.
90% of my YouTube comments arepeople saying dude, leave the
guy alone.
It's a great story.
He's amazing and you know he'shad a very successful post
Continent artist career orwhatever.
You know where he goes aroundand he says he's a security
(42:05):
expert.
Whether he's done all thosethings or not, I'm not sure, but
he he comes across as a veryknowledgeable guy and security
and fraud and he's probablydishing out some really useful
information.
But these companies are hiringhim to speak or as a consultant
or putting him on his boardunder the premise that this was
(42:26):
real.
Okay, so yeah, he might be veryknowledgeable about security
and fraud and stuff like that,but but not because he did all
these amazing cons.
You know, it's like when youhire a hacker, you know, you
know how like governments hirehackers.
They're like try to hack intomy right because they're
talented and they know that.
And no, they hire this guybecause they recognize him from
(42:48):
the movie, but he has no, it'scloud, right.
Yeah, but he has no realprofessional background.
So, whatever, hey, I'll powerto a man if all we want is to
set the record straight, correcthistory and you go around doing
your key notes, as long aspeople know that there's a giant
asterisk on this film and onyour book and the movie still
(43:10):
good and even if even if it'snot a true story.
Taylor D. Adams (43:13):
The movie yeah, how you know, this is an
agreement.
This has been both so much fun.
I'm so glad that we connectedand I listened to you the real
catch me, if you can, and thenhave you talk about the fake.
Javier Leiva (43:28):
Dude, it's amazing , I could talk about this topic
all day.
Taylor D. Adams (43:38):
To me, the greatest con here was convincing
us that Frank Abagnale juniorstory was real.
But stories are such powerfulthings.
An outlandish story about ateenager successfully
impersonating a pilot canInspire us to believe we can
accomplish anything.
A ridiculous tale about a kidgetting hired as a supervising
(43:58):
physician at a pediatrichospital can make us want to
help people, and Hearing aboutsomeone ripping off a giant
corporation by simply cashingbad checks feels vindicating
what we see and what we hearaffect us, even if it's bullshit
.
A huge thanks to Javier forchatting with me today and a
(44:19):
Boeing 707 size.
Thank you to you for listeningand watching.
Please take a look at the shownotes for links to Javier show,
pretend and some other goodiesthat have to do with the real.
Catch me if you can.
If you enjoyed the show today,please go ahead and subscribe on
your favorite podcast platformof choice and if you happen to
be listening on Apple podcasts,go ahead and leave a rating
(44:40):
review.
It helps us get noticed by moreawesome people like yourself.
If you want to help the showgrow and get access to some
really cool perks, pleaseconsider becoming a patron of
the film.
Those podcasts you can checkout the links below or visit
patreoncom.
Our theme this season is broughtto us by the deep end.
Our artwork is designed byMadunga Sipahudi, our director
(45:01):
of production is Keaton Musk,and all episodes of the film,
those podcasts are produced andedited by me, taylor D Adams.
If you want to get in touch,you can email film that's
podcast at gmailcom or follow uson Instagram, tiktok and
Twitter at film nuts podcast.
I'm not gonna call it X, I'mgonna keep calling it Twitter.
And don't forget to join thenut house to sort community
(45:21):
absolutely free, simply bychecking out the link in the
show notes.
Thank you all, so so much forlistening today and until next
time.
Here's hoping none of yourchecks bounce People's.
People still write checks right.
Hi, I'm Taylor and welcome back to the Film.
That's why guest a show aboutwhy we love what we watch.
It's been a very nice break.
I'm glad to be back talkingabout more of your favorite
films and TV shows.
So let's get to it.
We all love rooting for theLittle Guy, the underdog, the
character that has the oddsstacked against them but ends up
(01:09):
succeeding no matter theobstacles in their way.
And we love it even more whenthese stories are based on true
events.
But what if that inspirationaltrue story turned out to be
completely made up?
Steven Spielberg's Catch Me ifyou Can, starring Leonardo
DiCaprio, tells the supposedlytrue story of teenage con artist
(01:30):
Frank Abagnale Jr, whosuccessfully poses as a pilot, a
doctor and a lawyer and managesto cash millions of dollars in
bad checks against bigcorporations.
It's a fun cat and mouse caperfilled with charm and wit.
But my guest today is on amission to reveal the actual
(01:50):
true story of Frank Abagnale Jr.
Javier Leiva hosts the PretendPodcast, a show about real
people pretending to be somebodyelse people like con artists.
Javier's show consistentlyranks as one of the top true
crime podcasts in the US, uk,canada, australia, and he even
has an entire season of thePretend Podcast dedicated to the
(02:12):
actual true story of FrankAbagnale Jr.
It's mind-blowing, trust me.
But despite Javier unveilingthat Catch Me If you Can is
almost an entire work of fiction, it's still one of his favorite
movies.
Obviously, I had to know why,so I invited Javier here to the
studio.
Javier and I chat about thejoys of recording in person if
(02:33):
it's possible to escape throughan airplane toilet and see how
he actually physicallyconfronted Frank Abagnale Jr.
So let's see what all this fussis about.
Here's Javier Leva talkingabout Catch Me If you Can on the
Film Nuts podcast.
Javier Leiva (02:52):
You know I'd prefer to have everything in
person, but I think it's afterthe pandemic and shutdown it
really, you know, limited to whoyou could talk to and then Zoom
kind of exploded and all thesevideo chat services exploded.
So I have a knack for huntingpeople down digitally instead of
(03:14):
like in person.
But I always pick one or twoseries a year that I fly out to
do the reporting and all that.
Yeah, because there's nothingreplaces those little moments,
little sounds that you get whenyou're out on the field.
Taylor D. Adams (03:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Javier Leiva (03:30):
You know I remember shooting.
I went down to Mississippi onceto interview this bounding
hunter and he's flipping throughall these warrants of people he
has to arrest and stuff likethat and you hear the paper
rustling.
Taylor D. Adams (03:40):
Yeah, the problem.
You can't replace that Like thetactile.
Yeah, you don't get that overZoom, you know?
Yeah, even if you put it in apost, it's just not the same.
No, it's not.
And now was that for PretendPod.
Javier Leiva (03:50):
Yeah, yeah, and it's great because then you get
to know the people in a deeperlevel, like I went to have lunch
with him, we recorded, I justset the recorder down there
we're eating waffles, thewaitress knows him.
You know what I mean.
Like those little moments justcan't get if you're just doing a
remote interview.
Taylor D. Adams (04:07):
So how did this curiosity and fashion
fascination for con artists comeabout for you?
Javier Leiva (04:15):
That's a great question, because I don't like
true crime and I'm not.
I am fascinated with conartists now, but I wasn't always
.
The quick story is that I hadcreated this idea for a podcast
called Pretend and it was reallyabout performing arts and
people pretending to be someoneelse, like ghost writers and
(04:35):
standup comedians and, you know,people on in the theater.
So it was never about conartists.
But then I went down to Miamito visit my family for Christmas
and everybody has a black sheepin the family.
Are you the black sheep?
No, but the black sheep of thefamily.
His name, you know, it's mycousin, you know.
(04:57):
And he was about to go tofederal prison and we all were
curious.
We all knew he was the badthings, but we didn't know
exactly what he did.
So I sat down with him and Isaid, hey, do you mind?
if I record our conversation andhe just told me for like two it
seemed like two hours, maybe itwas more he told me everything
from the time he was a smalltime crook, breaking into cars,
(05:19):
to breaking into houses, to thenstaging insurance fraud like
accidents and then to buying amedical clinic, hiring a real
doctor, writing opioidprescriptions to drug dealers
that they could sell out intothe streets.
And I was just like are youkidding me?
Wow.
Taylor D. Adams (05:35):
Yeah.
Javier Leiva (05:37):
And I said OK, I said this is what the podcast is
about.
It's about con artists, becausehe is such a sharp and Cubans
and the CHs and the SHS man.
He's so charming and he couldyou know when you're around him.
He's so friendly and he couldjust charm the pants out of you.
And at the same time, this is aguy that was heading to federal
(05:59):
prison.
He's OK, by the way, now he'sout of prison.
He's an entrepreneur using allthose con artists skills, but
like for legitimate business, asfar as we know.
Taylor D. Adams (06:12):
Well, yeah, hope everything stays on the
level yeah.
Javier Leiva (06:15):
But he inspired the podcast and at that moment
on I was like, ok, this is aboutcon artists.
And I was like it's such aflawed idea to like if I would
have really thought about it, Iprobably would have never done
this podcast.
Because, think about it, onceyou do one episode about con
artists and the show is calledpretend that everyone you
interview is going to know thatyou're interviewing them because
(06:35):
you think they're a con artist.
And I was like nobody's goingto want to come on my show.
No one's ever going to.
And here we are, like 16seasons later and I've talked to
a lot of con artists and I'malways surprised that they come,
they want to talk to me, theywant to tell their side of the
story and it's fascinatingfascinating that this thing is
(06:56):
still going.
Taylor D. Adams (06:57):
Yeah Well, congratulations.
16 seasons yeah, really cooland really impressive, as
someone who's in the middle ofhis fourth.
Javier Leiva (07:05):
I don't know how it happens, man, you just got to
keep doing it.
Taylor D. Adams (07:08):
Speaking of con artists.
This is.
This is wild to me, becausewhen I asked you to come on the
show and you're so gracious withyour time and I asked you what
movie you wanted to talk about,your instinctual answer was
catch me, if you can.
I knew you had done.
Got it, the hard physical copy,that's right.
I know you had done a lot ofwork around the mystery of Frank
(07:31):
Abagnale, yeah.
So first of all, I'm curious asif, if this is One of your
favorite movies, or is it amovie that has just consumed a
large portion of your careerlife because of your
investigation into the realFrank Abagnale?
Javier Leiva (07:51):
Both Okay.
Yeah, I loved the movie waybefore I knew the true story of
Frank Abagnale.
I still love the movie.
I watched the movie, enjoy it,but in a different way.
Right, it hits differently nowthat I know the truth about
Frank Abagnale.
But it doesn't take away fromthe quality of the movie and the
(08:13):
acting and the way StevenSpielberg put it together.
I mean it's still one of thebest movies in my opinion.
Taylor D. Adams (08:41):
And for our audience, who maybe doesn't know
the truth about Frank Abagnale,can you I know you've got a
whole season of podcastsdedicated to it Can you boil it
down to like two paragraphs ofwhat actually happened?
Javier Leiva (08:55):
Well, I wonder if this says based on a true story.
I don't know, but it wasmarketed as a true story.
It doesn't say it on the, yeah,the extraordinary true story of
a brilliant young master ofdeception.
Well, everyone knows that ifit's based on a true story,
Hollywood has to fudge it alittle bit.
They got to, like, condensecharacters and consolidate them
(09:18):
and then maybe console, compressa timeline.
Some things are true, somethings are maybe not true, but
we generally think that most ofthe story must be true, right,
and that's not the case withCatch Me, if you Can.
It is completely fictionalstory.
Okay, and that's because theguy, frank Abragnell, the real
(09:41):
guy, he made up maybe 90% ofthat story, of his life story,
like he never did any of thethings that he says.
Taylor D. Adams (09:49):
Because the movie's based on his
autobiography.
Right, right right?
Javier Leiva (09:53):
yeah, exactly, it's not like Steven Spielberg
saw this guy down the street.
He wrote in the early 80s.
He wrote an autobiographycalled Catch Me If you Can and
it tells this wild story ofFrank Abragnell posing as a
pilot, a doctor, a lawyer, aprofessor all while he was from
the age of 16 to 21.
And he's playing this game ofcat and mouse with FBI.
(10:13):
Eventually the FBI captures him, throws him in prison and then
they get him out of prison andrecruit him and he starts
working for the FBI.
He claims he wrote $2.5 millionin bad checks.
Just an amazing story, really.
But then you start thinkingabout it.
How can a 16-year-old pull allthis off?
(10:36):
And when you start digging inand looking into his story, it
turns out that some of it isreal but most of it is
completely made up.
And there's a guy, an author,named Alan Logan and he wrote
this great book about FrankAbragnell's real life story and
(10:57):
it didn't get much traction inthe media, like they wrote about
it a little bit here and there.
But this guy did this amazingexpose, didn't get a lot of
traction.
I didn't really believe it atthe time.
And Alan Logan said listen, doyour own research.
Try to recreate my research,and everything that I found
about Frank Abragnell ispublicly available information.
(11:19):
You could go right now and getit, request those documents and
you'll see that the guy made upmost of the story.
Taylor D. Adams (11:24):
So he was challenging you to almost like
recreate the research that hehad done.
Javier Leiva (11:28):
Yeah, it was crazy , and so I was like sure, I'll
take you up on your challenge.
And so I pulled a lot of thesame documents that he did.
He shared some with me, but forthe smoking gun I was able to
pull myself and it was a prisoncard, this little yellow piece
of paper, and it says FrankAbragnell and has dates on it.
(11:50):
And the dates are importantbecause it proves that he was in
prison from the age of 16 to 21, in and out of prison right.
Which means it's impossible forhim to have pulled off the
stunts that he claims he did.
Ok, so then that's interesting,right, but what's even more
interesting is what reallyhappened, and that's where the
(12:14):
story takes a wild turn, becausenot only is the story not true,
but what he was really up towas just completely bonkers.
Taylor D. Adams (12:24):
Well, let's see yeah.
I don't want to like you torecreate your own podcast on
this podcast, but like what aresome of the things that he was
up to?
Javier Leiva (12:31):
Well, ok, so let's talk about the things that are
true.
Ok, some of the things that aretrue.
He did pose as a pilot.
(13:05):
He went and got a pilot costumeNot a uniform or a costume and
he would take rides on otherplanes.
So like, let's say, he was aPan Am pilot and he would go on
another airline's jump seatright, and so then he would get
free rides that way.
That is true.
Ok, we know that, spoken tosome flight attendants that have
(13:29):
corroborated that, and we havepictures of young Abagnale
dressed as a pilot.
But here's where the storytakes a left turn.
He was in prison most of thattime, like I said, but every
time he would come out of prisonhe would get this pilot costume
and show up at different places.
Ok, one of the places that heshowed up was a kid's summer
(13:53):
camp in Houston Texas, rightoutside of Houston Texas.
All right, so this pilot showsup at a kid's summer camp.
He's like hey, I was furloughed, lost my job, I need some work,
can you guys hire me?
And they're like sure you couldwork at the summer camp.
We have pictures of FrankAbagnale at the summer camp and
he worked there and he woulddrive all the kids around and
(14:15):
this and that, and then heeventually stole a bunch of
camera equipment from the summercamp and took off with all this
gear.
So he's like stealing from asummer camp, that's one thing.
At one point he was in BatonRouge gets out of prison, shows
up as a pilot, meets this ladynamed Paula Parks, befriends her
(14:39):
.
She's a flight attendant.
They, you know, they, I guessthey go out on a date or
something, but nothing everhappens.
She takes him home to meet herparents and he met the parents.
Well, paula Parks, she's flyingher all around the country.
Guess who?
Shows up at her parents' housewhile she's not there Frank
Abagnale, dressed like a pilot.
The parents take him in.
This guy is living at Paula'shouse.
(15:01):
He's eating there for mamaParks is washing his dirty
clothes and guess what?
He's stealing checks from theircheckbook yeah, writing checks
to himself, and he gets arrested.
You know, during that time healso shows up at a kids, you
know, at a facility for disabledchildren working with children.
(15:25):
He was always surrounded bykids for some reason.
One time he got out of prisonwent to work at an orphanage,
again with the whole pilotcostume thing.
So this is a guy with thispattern of playing, dress up and
showing up where kids are.
And then I mean, if you want tokeep peeling back the layer, the
(15:47):
onion layers, I mean it turnsout that the family tree is
really interesting.
His brother was a real conartist, but not a flashy con
artist Like Frank Abagnale.
This guy kept it all underwraps until he passed away.
He faked his resume, worked asa therapist his entire career
without any license.
We spoke to his daughter.
Frank Abagnale's father wasknown to have ties to the mafia
(16:13):
and had, you know, some shadydealings.
I think that was portrayed inthe movie a little bit.
So there it's.
He's such an interestingcharacter.
It's just not the one from themovie.
Taylor D. Adams (16:25):
Well, yeah, so yeah.
Going back to the movie, though, like, do you remember the
first time you saw this?
Javier Leiva (16:33):
I don't.
You know.
I was trying to think of thefirst time I saw this movie.
I don't remember it came outlike what in the 90s, you know,
early 2000s, in the early 2000s.
Taylor D. Adams (16:44):
Yeah.
Javier Leiva (16:44):
I don't remember exactly where I've seen it, but
I've seen it so many times.
It's one of the few movies.
You know that we that you gowatch over and over again and
just enjoy all the time.
So I don't remember, but it'salways been there.
It's always been part of mylife, right?
Taylor D. Adams (16:58):
So, upon your, I guess, frequent revisits of
the movie has, have you takensomething different from it each
time, or also go watching itmultiple times?
Have you also been going goingthrough the research or finding
out who Frank Abagnale reallywas, and does that?
Did that change your opinionAll?
Javier Leiva (17:17):
Yeah, the only thing I still enjoy the film,
but the only thing that bothersme now watching it.
I can't help.
But it bothers me because Iknow the real story is how they
portrayed Frank Abagnale's mom,paulette, in the movie.
They portray her as thisadulterous woman, wife that you
know.
She's selfish.
(18:16):
That was, from what I could tell, far from the truth, in fact,
court records show that, youknow, it was probably Frank's
dad who was having the affairand but that's just not the way
the movie portrayed it.
And for me, you know, I don'tknow.
I guess I have a goodrelationship with my mom, but
like, let's say, stevenSpielberg wanted to make a movie
(18:36):
about my life and and heportrayed my mom, as you know,
almost like this, like and anunflattering life.
Taylor D. Adams (18:44):
Yeah, I would have issues with that, and Frank
Abagnale has never seen a movielike this before.
Javier Leiva (18:49):
He's never spoken out about that, the real guy.
He's only spoken out about theway his father was portrayed.
But I would have.
I would take great issue withSteven Spielberg portraying my
mom, or any director.
And it's just kind of weird.
You know, like that, that's oneissue from the movie that I
think he would take issue with,but he doesn't.
Taylor D. Adams (19:10):
So you talked about that.
You do still enjoy this moviedespite knowing kind of a real
story.
But can you go into more detailabout how knowing the real
story has affected yourenjoyment of it?
Javier Leiva (19:22):
Yeah, I mean, you know I watch it and first of all
, I think that the fact that Leolooks nothing like Frank
Abagnale, it's almost like Idon't buy that.
It's based on a true story.
Once you know it's not based ona true story, it's a fantastic
work of fiction, right?
So it really doesn't affect myenjoyment of the film and part
(19:42):
of the reason is that the TomHanks character he's based off
of a real FBI agent, but therewas no cat and mouse chase in
real life.
So that whole you know TomHanks chasing him around the
world and stuff like that, thatnever happened.
(20:46):
So to me it just seems likealmost like parallel universes
and they don't conflict witheach other because they're so
different, you know.
Taylor D. Adams (20:54):
I was thinking about that, that watching this
movie.
I remember I think I've onlyseen it like two or three times
when it first came out in thetheater.
I remember really liking itlike enough to be like, oh yeah,
that's a good movie, like Iwill watch that movie again.
And I rewatched it recently andyeah, I think because I binged
your entire season, season 11,for 10.
(21:15):
And I was very much bothered byit.
Javier Leiva (21:19):
I was like couldn't get out of my head it
bothered you.
Taylor D. Adams (21:21):
Yeah, it bothered me because, but I think
, thinking back on it, if theyever did some kind of like
re-release of this movie andthey just took out based on true
events, I would have no issue,Right, Like I think that would
be it.
Like if I could erase from mymind that this was supposedly
based on a true story, I wouldthink it's a fantastic movie,
(21:42):
but like art doesn't reallyexist in a bubble, Like it's
influenced by it, I think thething is that you know, I
watched the Freddie Mercurymovie or any biopic.
Javier Leiva (21:52):
I haven't seen the Bob Marley movie or whatever it
doesn't.
Or I watched Lincoln and Idon't go back and research.
I mean I don't know.
Sometimes I'm like, was thatscene true?
I'll go back in Wikipedia orwhatever.
I think what bothers me aboutthis movie being based on true
stories, that we're celebratinga guy that not only he's not the
savvy con artist that we thinkhe is for the things that I was
(22:14):
describing about going back,getting out of prison, going to
seek the company of children.
I'm not implying that anythingwrong was happening there.
I'm not implying that at allbut this is not a very smart,
savvy con artist.
This is a guy that stole moneyfrom innocent people like Paula
Parks' family.
He stole money from investorswith these like these investment
(22:40):
deals, like doctors and realestate agents that still are old
and tens of thousands ofdollars that this guy has not
paid.
I mean he could just take theRolex off of his wrist and pay
back some of those loans, andthe point is there are real
victims still out there thatlost a lot of money because of
this guy and we're likecelebrating him.
(23:02):
That's probably what you'refeeling you know, that we're
celebrating a guy that's not ahero.
He's not even an anti-hero.
He would write bad checks usinghis real name.
Let's talk about that $2.5million that he supposedly stole
.
It wasn't $2.5 million, it wasa court record show that it was
(23:22):
maybe a little over $1,500.
And he would write checks usinghis own name.
I mean, I'm not a brilliantmastermind criminal, but I would
use somebody else's name.
Exactly yeah, so it's tough tocelebrate this guy's life.
Taylor D. Adams (23:37):
So this is more of a very broad question, with
the facts of this movie beingvery much fudged and in your
line of podcasting work andyou've talked a little bit about
this on your podcast this ideaof post-truth in this world that
we're living in, how importantis it that we, as an audience to
(24:00):
media, live-spree, engagements,articles, whatever how
important is it that we questionwhatever's being presented to
us as the truth.
Javier Leiva (24:09):
I mean, I think we should always question
everything that, even thingsthat you hear on a podcast.
You should question it, becausewhat we're doing is reliving
somebody's memory or recallingsomebody's memory, and memory is
such a flawed thing to beginwith.
So you know, like, if we kind ofmeet back in a month and try to
(24:29):
recount what we just did today,it might be very similar but we
might have different angles ofit, and so you always have to
question whether somebody'srecollection of something is
real.
I think the best way as anaudience, if Steven Spielberg
says that this is true, I thinkit's up to him to, and his team
(24:50):
to really make sure it'ssemi-true.
You know what I mean, like ifyou're gonna put that stamp that
it's based on a true story.
As a viewer, I think that ifyou hear something that just
sounds too good to be true, justdo a little bit of legwork.
It actually didn't take thatmuch work to find out the
information that Alan Logan andI found out about this, and it
(25:11):
turns out that there werejournalists way before us that
were looking into this.
So you could do a newspapercomsearch and you're gonna find
articles saying that this guy isprobably not who he says, he is
right and so.
But I think at the end of theday, since Memories Flood,
public records speak forthemselves.
They're like a little capturein a moment in time, and so if
(25:36):
you have real documents to backit up.
Taylor D. Adams (25:39):
I think you should trust that Such a weird
thing to say.
Like it seems so obvious thatlike, oh yeah, why don't you
like find the core of like whatactually happened and actually
happened, yeah, but who has timefor that right?
Like we take convenience forgranted, like much rather any
information be presented to usas opposed to us trying to find
out the real information.
(25:59):
And sometimes, when we try tofind out the real information on
our own, then that informationis wrong, right.
Javier Leiva (26:05):
Well, and just like before we started recording
, we were talking about thefloods in Dubai.
I started thinking to myself,what if that was like off-aik or
AI or something?
You know what I mean?
And I just told you the story.
I didn't fact check it, so nowI just spread some information.
Hey, there might be floods inDubai, I don't know.
Taylor D. Adams (26:20):
I don't know.
Javier Leiva (26:21):
I'm gonna go tell somebody else that there's
floods in Dubai, and that's howit happens, right?
This, like this ripple of-.
Taylor D. Adams (26:25):
That telephone game can kind of get out of hand
.
Javier Leiva (26:27):
Yeah, 100%, and I think we mean well.
But there are some real badactors out there.
I mean foreign entities, youknow, like China, russia.
We're trying to influence ournews cycle.
There are people who are tryingto spread misinformation for
whatever personal gain that theyhave.
But and a lot of us, we're justconsuming it, right, and we
(26:48):
don't even see it, we don't evenknow.
Once we get funneled, we don'teven know that we're in the
machine, right.
Taylor D. Adams (26:55):
Yeah, and sometimes we end up trusting we
end up being too trustingsometimes of just anything we
hear, and we don't even if theinformation is related to us in
a non you know nefarious way.
They're just relaying whateverthey heard or read or saw, and
then that's, you know thetelephone.
Javier Leiva (27:11):
But we live in that post-truth world, and so we
have to know how to navigate itas consumers right.
Taylor D. Adams (28:09):
With all the smack.
We're talking about FrankAbagnale.
Do you have a favorite momentor scene from this movie?
Javier Leiva (28:15):
Yeah, oh man, I love.
Well, first of all, can I tellyou that my favorite scene is
probably the title sequence.
Taylor D. Adams (28:22):
Oh, so good.
Javier Leiva (28:23):
John Williams score doonananananana.
Taylor D. Adams (28:25):
I love that Such a great, such a great story
.
Javier Leiva (28:27):
And the animation I just for me grabbed new right
from the beginning.
I do love the scenes that wereshot at that old airport in New
York the name escapes me, butit's this beautiful architecture
and their, you know, tom.
Taylor D. Adams (28:43):
Hags.
Javier Leiva (28:43):
You know like finally, like kind of catches up
to him, and I just, oh, myfavorite scene, hold on.
Can we talk about the toiletscene?
Taylor D. Adams (28:54):
Yeah, you can talk about whatever scene you
want to.
I love that scene, yeah thetoilet.
Javier Leiva (28:57):
So the story is Frank Abagnale escapes, right,
he escapes to Europe, right, andthis part is true.
The real Frank Abagnale does goto Europe at one point, okay,
but like, that part is true, butthat's the end of the real
story, okay, but in the movie hegets caught, he gets thrown in
(29:17):
prison and some French prisonand Tom Hags comes, pulls him
out of jail.
They're transporting him backto the US, you know.
They're on the plane, andLeonardo DiCaprio, you know,
gets up and he uses the restroom.
Frank, come on now, frank.
(29:47):
In my head I was rocking mybrain of like what the inside of
a plane looks like.
Well, according to FrankAbagnale and we have, he said
this before that really happened.
That wasn't just like StevenSpielberg pulling this out of
nowhere.
Apparently, he really escapedthrough the toilet.
Well, the problem is that thereare people that listen to these
(30:09):
claims, people that actuallyare engineers and know how
planes work and stuff like that.
They're like no, it's actuallyimpossible.
Taylor D. Adams (30:15):
I was gonna say clearly there's gotta be yeah.
Javier Leiva (30:18):
And what a nasty little thing to sneak out of,
but anyway.
So when he started realizingthat people were questioning
whether that was true or not,then he says he didn't escape
from the toilet, he escaped fromthe kitchen galley or something
.
So the story kind of changed alittle bit.
So if you asked him today, hedid not escape from the toilet,
but if you asked him in the 80she totally escaped from the
(30:39):
toilet.
Taylor D. Adams (30:40):
That's fascinating.
So, yeah, that scene was likewait, it's not the drain,
because that's why it was so.
It's like the underneath of thetoilet mechanism is somehow
opened into the wheel well, of aplane.
I was like that's crazy, yeah,doesn't make any sense, doesn't
work like that.
Yeah, and I don't know planes,so that's the problem.
So I asked this question of ourguests how would you recommend
(31:04):
this movie to someone who hasn'tseen it?
And with all that we've talkedabout, is there any kind of
caveat that you would give whenyou would recommend it?
Javier Leiva (31:11):
Just watch it as if there were a work of fiction
and you're going to love thisfilm.
I mean, it's a great film, butthe problem is that if you had
any expectation that it was real, you're going to be sorely
disappointed.
It is so not real.
Taylor D. Adams (31:26):
So how has it been possible for Kind of a
vague question, but how has itbeen possible for con artists to
use storytelling as a weapon tolike enhance their own lore of
legend?
Javier Leiva (31:40):
Yeah, I mean it's if you could grab somebody with
a great story.
People love stories.
It's like we're like a moth toa flame, right?
People love a good story.
And if you are having enoughcharisma and you're on the
Johnny Carson show and you'retelling the world all these
great stories, we want tobelieve.
Especially a story like this,where you think that there are
(32:02):
no real victims.
You know that this was allinnocent crimes.
No one really got hurt.
You're like, oh well, then weromanticize it right?
Con artists don't want to evertell you that they really hurt
people.
That would not make great sales.
Imagine a Ponzi schemeertelling you about all these
(32:24):
investments he did wrong.
No, a Ponzi schemeer is goingto tell you about all these
great opportunities, theseamazing returns.
They fill your head up with allthis hope and.
But they also do the oppositetoo.
Like con artists could use fearas a way to motivate they.
I've noticed this is a commonthread with con artists.
They disarm you by, let's say,they buy you dinner.
(32:47):
They're always the first onesto pick up the check.
They give you gifts and stufflike that, because when it's
time to ask you for something,for money or whatever you're
like oh yeah, they're good forit.
They bought me dinner right.
Like they are always picking upthe check, they're always
giving me gifts.
You know what I mean.
So they've earned your trust,and so I've noticed that about
(33:07):
like as a common thread to thepeople that I cover, at least.
Taylor D. Adams (33:14):
So when you're watching this movie, do you find
yourself identify now, identifyor rooting for anyone?
Yeah, as they're watching themovie.
Javier Leiva (33:25):
Well, you know you're this movie.
You're rooting for LeonardoDiCaprio, Frank Abagnale, you
want him to get away with it.
And I think that that I meanit's the anti-hero stuff, right,
like we rooted for Walter Whitein Breaking Bad, tony Soprano,
you know?
And don't you get disappointedat the end of the day when you
(33:47):
start realizing, okay, so whenyou're in it, right, like when
you're watching the Sopranos,you're so in Tony's
gravitational force, right, andthen the show ends and you're
like, wow, that's the guy that Iwanted to win you know what I
mean.
Like isn't that weird, but youhave to step away from it for a
while.
It's almost like the magnetismthat a cult leader has.
You know, while you're aroundit they smother you and so you
(34:11):
don't see the danger that you'rein until, like, you escape and
then all of a sudden it makes alot of sense.
So I think that you know, whenyou're rooting for Frank
Abagnale, you're caught up inthe story and then the whole
glamor of this, like this chase,and then you realize, well, the
real guy.
Why do you think he was posingas a doctor?
You know what was he trying todo.
(34:34):
What was he trying to do as anattorney?
You know what I mean.
Taylor D. Adams (34:37):
Like, when you start, like, realizing these
things, yeah, and like, theweird part of the movie is that
a my recent recollection ofwatching a couple of days ago
was basically that he was kindof inspired to take on these
different roles by watching TV.
Javier Leiva (34:53):
Like, well, probably some of that.
And then he'll also tell youthat you know he was so
heartbroken by his parents'divorce.
You know he paints thisdramatic picture that he's in
the courtroom and you knowthey're like you know he runs
out of this courtroom when hisparents get divorced and he
doesn't know where to go and heimmediately, you know, gets the
(35:13):
pilot suit and just goes.
It's almost like this, likecrazy fan, that he's living out
this crazy fantasy.
But yeah, every superhero needssome sort of motivation, right?
Yeah?
Taylor D. Adams (35:26):
that origin story, yeah that origin story.
Javier Leiva (35:28):
He definitely created it.
Now, the funny thing aboutFrank Abagnale is that the
origin story, this whole, thisfolklore that he's created for
himself it has, there's a pointwhen it all starts to happen.
That story wasn't always there.
Okay, there was a point in time, remember, when he was at the
summer camp, when he was doingall these things at the
(35:49):
orphanage, that story didn'texist.
There was a point where it wasalmost like a flip of a switch
that this story comes to lifeand it's right around the time
where he gets married.
And so a lot of people thinkthat what did his wife have
something to do with craftingthis story?
Did a local journalist Cause?
(36:10):
The first time we hear thewhole story about the pilot,
doctor, lawyer, professor thingwas after this article was
written by this local journalist.
And so it's like where did thisfantasy come from?
And it happened very quickly.
It wasn't like he slowly addedto the story.
No, it was just like one dayhe's a small time crook, the
(36:32):
next day he's this likebrilliant con artist on the
Johnny Carson show.
It just happened, just likethat.
Taylor D. Adams (36:37):
Wow, some good publicity work.
Javier Leiva (36:39):
Yeah, it is brilliant, and I actually spoke
to one of the women that I thinkit was his agent or somebody
that was trying to get himbooked on the Tonight Show.
If she would have never bookedhim on the Tonight Show, I don't
think there would be a FrankAbagnale.
I don't think there would be a.
Catch Me, if you Can.
It's actually Inadvertentlycreated a monster.
Taylor D. Adams (37:01):
Yeah, but apparently a monster, who then
got turned into a character weall root for in a movie and a
Broadway musical that I keepforgetting about that.
That's wild, I think it's likethat.
That feels perverse to me yeahthere is.
Javier Leiva (37:14):
I just saw a posting on Newspaper like some
sort of online magazine.
They're looking for the part ofFrank Abbott.
They're auditioning for.
Frank Abbott's mom, oh wow Forfor the musical and I almost
want to tell them you know, Doyou want to hear the real story
about the mom?
Because she's nothing like theway the movie portrays her to be
(37:34):
.
That's so wild.
Taylor D. Adams (37:35):
Yeah, it's.
You mentioned earlier, speakingof the, how the mother is
portrayed.
You mentioned earlier that youdon't want Steven Spielberg to
portray your mom in a way Right,and that's particular away.
But I came up with thisquestion I want to know who
would play you in the movieabout exposing Frank Abbott.
Javier Leiva (37:53):
Okay, I my kids say that I look like Lin-Manuel
Miranda or whatever so we'rejust gonna go with him and if
he's not available, ray Romanoor.
Taylor D. Adams (38:05):
I, I haven't who would play.
Who would play?
Frank Abbott now.
Javier Leiva (38:09):
Hmm, that's a good one.
It would probably be like SethRogen or something you know like
interesting.
Okay, I don't see LeonardoDiCaprio at all playing Frank
Abbott now I, but this movieneeds to be made because this
was the real catch.
Maybe can't like nobody waschasing him back in the day, but
Alan Logan and I have beenchasing this guy for a couple
(38:32):
years now.
Taylor D. Adams (38:33):
I was doing some research before our chat
Just on Frank Abbott, nowlooking up bunch of stuff I
Immediately thought of, if thatmovie was about right now, like
this time of exposing him, Ithink Henry Winkor could play a
really good Frank Abbott.
Javier Leiva (38:46):
Oh yeah, like the older abbeck, I love Henry
Winkor.
You make a great Frank Abbott.
Taylor D. Adams (38:51):
Now that would be awesome you actually went to
a Like confront Frank Abbottnail in person, right.
Javier Leiva (38:59):
Yeah, you know, I couldn't do this whole series on
Frank Abbott now without FrankAbbott now Right, like there's a
lot of historical documents, soI reached out to him.
Actually I reached out to himAt the time I actually thought
that this movie was real.
So I I reached out to him thatwe all did.
I admired the story and Ithought he's like the biggest
badass Con artist of all time,and so I reached out to him and
(39:21):
he said no.
And then, if he would have saidyes, I would have still
believed the story.
I would have had him on my showand just talk to him, right,
and none of this would havehappened.
But he said no, and that's whenI started looking into it,
that's when I found Alan Logan.
And here we are right.
So he said no, but I could notdo the series without him, right
?
So I knew that he was speakingat the MGM in Las Vegas.
(39:45):
It's huge auditorium.
He did this like our keynotespeech.
He's a great speaker.
But I waited for him outside ofthe stage, you know.
I had a feeling that here we go, right, you know.
And so I met him out in thehallway and I made sure I had
like the biggest, baddestmicrophone I could find, like a
big boom mic.
(40:06):
So he could say oh, I you lookofficial.
Yeah.
I was like, yeah, like we'redefinitely recording this right,
and so and you know, I had mycamera in my pocket you know I
looked very unassuming and I hithim with a softball question.
I said hey, frank, your storyis so unbelievable, can you tell
me about it?
He started, you know, giving mehis canned answers and so I
(40:27):
knew I didn't have much time, soI was a friendly reporter.
Now second question was a hardone.
I said Frank, how was it thatyou were posing as a pilot,
doctor, lawyer, professor, ifyou were in prison the entire
time?
He goes oh, no, I think you gotyour dates and times wrong.
I go no, actually I have yourprison records right here.
He's like, oh, and that's when,like, the people around him
(40:52):
start realizing that this wasnot a friendly interview like
his, like security detail.
No, it's just like the eventorganizers and the people, his
posse I don't know who thosepeople were, but anyway.
So they things start gettingtense and he answers my quite.
He gives me like this BSresponse and you know, and the
whole thing is caught on tape.
I put it on YouTube.
But yeah, I had to get him.
(41:12):
And you know, the funny thingis that my series on Frank
Abagnale ended but the but mylisteners, they're still fired
up about this.
And when he does speaking gigs,my listeners are confronting
him at these different events,really asking him like, hey, you
know, if this is a lie, can you, you know, and and and it's
(41:34):
amazing, because it's likepeople Feel like they've been
betrayed, you know, buying thisBS story.
Taylor D. Adams (41:41):
I mean, you know, it's like finding out
spoilers like Santa Claus isn'treally.
Javier Leiva (41:45):
Exactly, and that actually is.
You should read my YouTubecomments.
90% of my YouTube comments arepeople saying dude, leave the
guy alone.
It's a great story.
He's amazing and you know he'shad a very successful post
Continent artist career orwhatever.
You know where he goes aroundand he says he's a security
(42:05):
expert.
Whether he's done all thosethings or not, I'm not sure, but
he he comes across as a veryknowledgeable guy and security
and fraud and he's probablydishing out some really useful
information.
But these companies are hiringhim to speak or as a consultant
or putting him on his boardunder the premise that this was
(42:26):
real.
Okay, so yeah, he might be veryknowledgeable about security
and fraud and stuff like that,but but not because he did all
these amazing cons.
You know, it's like when youhire a hacker, you know, you
know how like governments hirehackers.
They're like try to hack intomy right because they're
talented and they know that.
And no, they hire this guybecause they recognize him from
(42:48):
the movie, but he has no, it'scloud, right.
Yeah, but he has no realprofessional background.
So, whatever, hey, I'll powerto a man if all we want is to
set the record straight, correcthistory and you go around doing
your key notes, as long aspeople know that there's a giant
asterisk on this film and onyour book and the movie still
(43:10):
good and even if even if it'snot a true story.
Taylor D. Adams (43:13):
The movie yeah, how you know, this is an
agreement.
This has been both so much fun.
I'm so glad that we connectedand I listened to you the real
catch me, if you can, and thenhave you talk about the fake.
Javier Leiva (43:28):
Dude, it's amazing , I could talk about this topic
all day.
Taylor D. Adams (43:38):
To me, the greatest con here was convincing
us that Frank Abagnale juniorstory was real.
But stories are such powerfulthings.
An outlandish story about ateenager successfully
impersonating a pilot canInspire us to believe we can
accomplish anything.
A ridiculous tale about a kidgetting hired as a supervising
(43:58):
physician at a pediatrichospital can make us want to
help people, and Hearing aboutsomeone ripping off a giant
corporation by simply cashingbad checks feels vindicating
what we see and what we hearaffect us, even if it's bullshit
.
A huge thanks to Javier forchatting with me today and a
(44:19):
Boeing 707 size.
Thank you to you for listeningand watching.
Please take a look at the shownotes for links to Javier show,
pretend and some other goodiesthat have to do with the real.
Catch me if you can.
If you enjoyed the show today,please go ahead and subscribe on
your favorite podcast platformof choice and if you happen to
be listening on Apple podcasts,go ahead and leave a rating
(44:40):
review.
It helps us get noticed by moreawesome people like yourself.
If you want to help the showgrow and get access to some
really cool perks, pleaseconsider becoming a patron of
the film.
Those podcasts you can checkout the links below or visit
patreoncom.
Our theme this season is broughtto us by the deep end.
Our artwork is designed byMadunga Sipahudi, our director
(45:01):
of production is Keaton Musk,and all episodes of the film,
those podcasts are produced andedited by me, taylor D Adams.
If you want to get in touch,you can email film that's
podcast at gmailcom or follow uson Instagram, tiktok and
Twitter at film nuts podcast.
I'm not gonna call it X, I'mgonna keep calling it Twitter.
And don't forget to join thenut house to sort community
(45:21):
absolutely free, simply bychecking out the link in the
show notes.
Thank you all, so so much forlistening today and until next
time.
Here's hoping none of yourchecks bounce People's.
People still write checks right.
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