August 6, 2025 • 55 mins
Victoria Bouloubasis, Emmy-nominated journalist and documentary filmmaker, shares how the BBC series "Killing Eve" provided a necessary escape from her intense work documenting marginalized communities.
• Killing Eve presented a perfect contrast to Victoria's documentary work by offering pure entertainment without heavy social messaging
• The show's first two seasons captivated with strong performances, especially Jodie Comer's theatrical portrayal of Villanelle
• Victoria discusses how the series declined after original showrunners Phoebe Waller-Bridge and Emerald Fennell departed
• The cat-and-mouse dynamic between Eve and Villanelle created tension that worked best when they remained in pursuit of each other
• Growing up surrounded by strong Greek women influenced Victoria's focus on female-centered storytelling
• Documentary filmmaking requires building genuine trust with subjects, particularly when entering communities not your own
• Sometimes allowing ourselves pure entertainment provides creative inspiration and necessary mental relief
Victoria's documentary "The Last Partera" will be screening at the Carolina Theater on September 18th. Get your tickets here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think about you too .
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I mean, I masturbate about you a lot.
Okay, that too much.
No, that's just, I wasn'texpecting that.
I don't have a TV, but I have aprojector.
You know, it took up my entireliving room wall and it was just
like I was like immersed inthis world.
It became a show that I wouldjust like unwind from my day and
like and like the crazy reallife stories I was hearing and
(00:26):
like decompressing.
And then it became a show whereI would just like have it on on
my laptop while I was foldinglaundry and like half pay
attention to.
I wanted to watch it.
I didn't want it on while I wasdoing other things.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hey folks, welcome back to the Film Nuts podcast, a
show about why we love what wewatch.
My name is Taylor D Adams andI'm so happy you decided to join
us today.
So, as you can hear or see, I'min a little bit of a different
location right now.
I'm in the back of my houselooking out into the backyard,
and there's a reason why I'mdoing this.
So I'm actually a littlenervous about this episode for a
(01:03):
few reasons.
First off, in contrast to whatwe normally do on the show,
today we're going to be givingpraise and criticism to a
television show.
We haven't done something likethis since our episode on Star
Wars, Episode 8, the Last Jedi.
Secondly, I'm chatting with aEmmy-nominated journalist who
has done incredible work on food, labor and immigration, and so
(01:27):
I'm a little nervous andself-conscious about my
interviewing chops myself.
And lastly, I wanted to dosomething a little different
setting-wise, so I decided tofilm in my backyard and
currently, where I'm sitting atthe moment of recording this
little introduction, I am notactually in my backyard because
it's raining, cats and dogsoutside.
But anyway, despite all theseworries and concerns, you're
(01:50):
here watching or listening tothis in the comfort of your own
home, or maybe you're in yourcar or walking your dog, or
maybe you're actually sitting onthe toilet, I don't know.
I don't care.
I just am so glad that youdecided to join us today and I
hope you enjoy the show.
Anyway, how do we deal with thebleakness that surrounds us?
How do we cope with theinjustices of the world?
(02:13):
What can temporarily free usfrom this omnipresent heaviness?
Watching a stylish and wittycat and mouse game between an
intelligence officer andassassin might be a good start.
The series Killing Eve starringJodie Comer and Sandra oh was a
colorful, escapist breath offresh air for my guest today
(02:34):
that lightened the load afterdiving deep into her work as an
investigative reporter.
Victoria Bulubasis is ajournalist and filmmaker who
found comfort in Killing Eve, atleast for the first two seasons
.
It was, as she put it, almostthe opposite of the work she
does, and as much as she enjoyedthe show, she did have a few
(02:54):
issues as the series went on.
Today we expand on that theresponsibility of documentary
filmmaking, her courses at NightSchool Bar, where we both teach
, and the value of pureentertainment.
And with that I sincerely hopeyou enjoy Victoria Bulubasis
talking about Killing Eve on theFilm Nuts podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I'm well.
I was telling you that I tookyesterday off.
It was a Thursday.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
That sounds nice.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, I needed to jump into the ocean and so I
just drove out there and spentthe day.
It was nice.
I went in twice and got to swimaround a bit.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
It just feels like really grounding to float
somehow Is that something youdid frequently like growing up
is expose yourself to the ocean,or Um.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Hmm, I don't know, my , my maternal grandmother is.
She was from an island, a GreekIsland, um, and so there's like
something there.
I'm a water sign, so there'ssomething there, I guess.
But yeah, there's somethinggrounding to me about the salt
(04:12):
water in particular, like weneed salt and we need water for
life, and it's just like there'ssomething literally essential
about it for me.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
No, I feel you.
I admittedly haven't been in anocean a couple years and it
feels like there's somethingmissing, I feel like I need to
go out there sometime thissummer and just dive in?
Do you just dive in, get aquick soak in and jump back out,
or are you swimming around andspending a fair amount of time
while you're in the water?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
It depends.
I mean, I think I'm such a bratabout it.
Nothing compares to grease andyou can see the bottom of the
ocean when you're just likefloating around in there and
like the water is just perfect.
It's a little bit, it's notchilly, but it's not hot, it's
not murky, it's just very, verysalty.
(05:02):
So you can just sort of floatand I get really wrinkly when
I'm in there.
But here it depends.
I do like the waves but I'm notlike a water sport person.
I just like to be immersed inthis like unknown vast space.
That is very something to befearful of, but like I don't
(05:25):
know, it's just really beautifulto me and I also really enjoy
um, seafood and that whatevercomes along with that culture.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
So yeah, no, I mean strong connection to any part of
the earth.
I feel like it's, it feels goodto have, like it feels
grounding, whether it's literalground, like if you go out and
lay in the grass here, or if youjust like swim in the ocean.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah so.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I get that and yeah, I'm one of those people where
whenever I go like snorkeling orsomething like in the Caribbean
and it's real deep, I reallyenjoy looking just straight down
.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I know it's wild.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
It freaks my partner out.
She's like I don't, I don'twant to see, I don't want to see
how blue it gets and howforever it goes on how forever
that's.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
That's it, yeah, and there's a whole other world
under there that we're not privyto.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah at all yeah, um, I don't want to find out.
It seems like things are scarydown there it does I mean?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I remember I remember watching Little Mermaid as a
kid and not remembering the plotat all, but just that, just
like the underwater parts, yeah,and I'm not necessarily
somebody that wants to likescuba dive and find out, but I'm
really fascinated by it and Irecently watched it with my
niece, who's three, and wewatched the original because
(06:48):
even that, like the eels, arescary, and Ursula parts, oh yeah
, and I heard that the like liveaction one was scarier for a
three-year-old so we startedwith, like the traditional
Disney one, which was veryproblematic in many ways um but
no now she's really yeah, butshe's really into like
(07:09):
pretending like she's the littlemermaid and like she ate an
oyster for the first time andthen, um, she ate mussels the
other day like she's, we're justlike exploring, like sea things
like.
I picked up a couple shells togive her, like ocean treasures.
She loves carolina beachherself.
Okay, she's always talkingabout it.
So, um, yeah, I don't know.
(07:31):
There's just such a mystery toit and, granted, like everything
, I can do research and figureit out, but yeah, kind of like
keeping that sort of imaginativemystery in my life.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah damn.
This should be an episode onthe little mermaid place no, I
mean it's really like, not anlike.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I would just go in on how sexualized they made this
young woman in the disneycartoon.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
That's yeah disney problems there's a lot disney
problems.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Hashtag disney problems well, I'm it.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
It's great that you're here.
I'm so excited that we finallygot to schedule this.
I'm glad you're enjoying sometime at the beach and that's
great.
I'd like to talk a little bitabout your work.
So you have a film that isgoing through the festival
circuit right now.
I would like to know a littlebit more about it.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Sure, it is the first feature film I directed.
It's called the Last ParteraPartera means midwife in Spanish
, and it's a film I made with myfriend and co-director, ned
Phillips, and he originallyencountered this story in Costa
(08:43):
Rica while he was visitingfriends Through like a circuit
of this person knows this person, a midwife named Miriam
Elizondo, or, respectfully,she's called Doña Miriam, and
she was the last livingtraditional midwife in her
region.
So we spent about eight yearsat least sort of chronicling, is
(09:10):
that how you pronounce it?
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Chronicling.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Chronicling yeah, there you go, but there's no
extra vowel there.
Chronicling, anyway, it's.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
CL yeah.
Documenting the story Anyway.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Her life, her life's work towards the end of her life
, um, and the influence that shehas on other women and sort of.
For me it was um, this essenceof like feminism before it
existed as a term, and somethingshe would have never described
herself as a feminist.
(09:45):
Um, she's very traditional,very catholic, um, very much
believe in women's power.
But like that term and like themodern use of it would not
probably resonate with thiswoman.
But it just shows that, likewomen, caring for each other in
community is a form of feminismthat's always existed.
Um, and so, yeah, it was abeautiful story.
(10:07):
For me, it felt somewhatpersonal as well, because on my
other side, my dad's mom was amidwife in his village, um, and
he grew up in a mountain villagesimilar to the one we were
visiting and documenting.
Um, and you know, in his lifedidn't have running water.
(10:27):
Actually, I think I don'tremember this much, but when I
was two, I went to Greece forthe first time and I still don't
think they had running water inthe village.
Um, and my mom said like we'dgo to the well and um, bring
water and heat it up for me totake a bath.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Wow.
Yeah, but then the next time Iwent there I was seven and they
had it so so I feel like fromthe work you do and the films
and art you appreciate likethere's very much a woman focus,
a women focus around thesekinds of things.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, I wonder why.
Yeah, I wonder why focus around?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
these kinds of things .
Yeah, I wonder why.
Yeah, I wonder why.
But pivoting from that, yeah.
Why did you want to talk aboutkilling Eve?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I've been racking my brain thinking about this and I
don't think it's as obvious aslike, oh, there's centering like
a woman's story or, like youknow badass women, assassins or
psychopaths, which they both are, um, I think, I think for me my
work is very rooted, likethere's a reality baseline to it
(11:40):
, um, and I can get creativeabout telling a true story,
whereas I think what I reallyenjoy about killing Eve is it's
not that at all.
It's very much like an escapism,you know, as an art form, and I
started watching it during thepandemic and during that time I
(12:01):
was doing a lot of reporting on,like all the shit that was
going down in marginalizedcommunities and doing a lot of
hard emotional work in myreporting, talking to
undocumented workers who weregetting sick, who had family
(12:25):
members dying from COVID, werenot feeling protected at work
and were essential workers butnot getting stimulus checks and,
like you know, just all thesesystemic inequities that exist
that were really brought to theforefront and unveiled during
the early pandemic especially,and so killing Eve was none of
that, stop it.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I just want to have dinner with you, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
You know, I could just like turn it on and turn
off my brain but still feelenthralled by like this
interesting drama, which we canget to this later.
But like season one was thebest, season two was great and
then the rest was really bad.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
So I think you know, I agree, I agree with you, yeah,
yeah, and I think you know thisfrom my classes I'm always like
putting something in there,like I don't really bad.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
So I think you know, I agree, I agree with you, yeah,
yeah, and I think you know thisfrom my classes.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I'm always like putting something in there, like
I don't really like to.
Just you never tell us whatthat is.
You're just like afterward belike what do you guys think I
don't like this?
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, I didn't like this and I wanted to know if I
wanted y'all to convince meotherwise.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yes, like this.
You know, anything we watchthat is outside of our world,
like our reality, is this formof escapism.
Was there something specificabout this plot, this story that
, like, triggered that sense ofescapism for you Other than like
you?
I mean, I don't know if you'rean assassin, or not, but I'm
assuming that's not your life.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
You'll never know.
Is there something that liketriggered it?
I don't know.
I mean, is there something thatlike triggered it?
I don't know.
I mean, I think, well, it wasdefinitely marketed for the
girlies.
For example, the fashionVillanelle's fashion is like
fucking amazing And-.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Jodie Comer rocks every look.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, and in the first season where she's meeting
with a counselor for the firsttime, Thank you for making such
an effort, Villanelle.
She's wearing this pink Thuledress.
Apparently, the designer blewup after that.
She's wearing this pink Thuledress and these like black
combat style boots, and she'sthe only color in the room.
(14:42):
Everything else feels moremuted and drab.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And then she's outside standing and like the
dress is blowing in the wind andit's very Carrie and Sex and
the City, with like the pinktuli, like the iconic.
It's a different style dressbut it's like to me I feel like
it's a nod to that um, and soit's very like I'm watching a
girly show, like it's not,because at first I've never
(15:07):
watched anything violent and Ididn't grow up watching violent
movies.
I'm kind of squeamish aboutthat stuff and this really
pushed me, like pushed myboundary in that sense.
I don't think I need to diginto like any sort of like
profound reason why there's,like you know, a queer love
story about women and like womendoing whatever, like yeah,
(15:29):
there's women in this story andI feel like everything is like
normalized, but it's still verylike there's girly details about
it.
It's like different from justlike being a woman's show.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I'm a a guy, so this, I'm a guy, so this, uh, this
show, marketing wise, was likenot targeted toward me, like I
saw some advertisements for it,didn't really know what it was.
Like I recognize Sandra.
Oh, I like her, um, I've seenher in some stuff and I had
heard some, just like some filmand TV podcasts like
recommending this Um, and and TVpodcasts like recommending this
(16:06):
um, and they provided liketheir reasons why they like it.
And when I found out that itwas Phoebe Waller-Bridge that
was doing it, I was like, okay,let's give it a shot.
And yeah, I was.
I was hooked on that firstseason.
I was like this is, this is fun, this is dangerous, this is
sexy, it's funny, like it'sreally.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
It's really funny.
It's really funny.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
We all have shows or movies that are, like the
marketing is like, targetedtoward certain demographic in
order to get them to watch,right, but it's fascinating to
me when a demographic who is nottargeted for this also enjoys
it.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
And it's not like I was.
You know it's not.
It doesn't come as a surpriseto me that I enjoyed it, because
I literally think that firstseason is excellent television
For certain material that wouldbe beneficial for the four
quadrants basically to see, buta lot of times it's difficult to
get what you want them to seein front of them, or even to get
(17:02):
them to press play.
Play on it, excuse me.
Uh, do you think there'ssomething we can do about that?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
hmm, that's a great question.
I don't.
It's really hard for me tothink along that vein because I
feel like everything I do and Ienjoy is less I sound like such
an asshole less mainstream.
But you know what I mean.
It's like I'm always drawn to,like I'm not always going to be
(17:33):
excited about whateverblockbuster movies out in
theaters and like dying to seeit, and I just think that,
unfortunately for my bankaccount, my brain doesn't think
in a way.
That's like how can we marketthis?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Right To everyone, yeah, everyone.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
And it's like and I think it's things shouldn't.
That's where things get dilutedand that's probably why the
last two seasons were real shitand like they phoned it in
completely.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Well, Feebwell or Bridge and Emeraldald Fennell
weren't involved in the showanymore for those last two,
right?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Nope, they weren't.
Yeah, and they really, I think,capitalized on like their love
story, but it wasn't fleshed outin a way that felt like enough,
like it wasn't smart.
I remember they were oh gosh,when Constantine died Stop.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Stop.
No, I have a letter in my bag.
Bring it to Karen Martins forme.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
And tell her I always loved her.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I'm so proud of you.
I love that actor.
I've seen him in many.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I think he's my favorite character.
I mean, it's hard to competewith Villanelle, but I love him
so much, I love that man so muchLike I just want to drink and
play cards with him.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
You know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
He's amazing.
He's so sweet, sweet and Idon't know.
He's just so good and like thatweird chuckle that he has that
abrupt, like so good.
Um, and their dynamic andchemistry was really wonderful.
He and villanelle and thewriting, especially in the first
two seasons, like helped drawout and develop their arcs.
(19:29):
Um, but then when he died, I Iliked that.
It was sweet that he was tryingto save this young woman who
was like newly coming in.
But I was reading on Reddit atone point about how people were
so pissed off that they reallyloved this actor.
But she was, her character wasso flat in that last season and
they just like introduced hertoo quickly and then to have her
(19:52):
kill him was just like didn'tdo his character over the four
seasons justice and um, I agreewith that, but what was the
question?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Well, just keep going , whatever you're doing, I mean,
we're talking, we have I thinkthat's a great point that we
talk about Constantine.
Like there are you know this,this like marketability, like I
feel like there might have beenan opportunity in some kind of
just like you know, you can domarketing materials about
anything Like you pop up inNetflix and the algorithm
generates the thumbnail thatthey think you will most likely
(20:25):
click on.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Or like the preview, Right right.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Or some guy somewhere .
All he's watching on his queueis like bro-led, like violence
movies.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
If you had Killing Eve come up as a thumbnail and
you had Constantine as thethumbnail like would that
trigger them to watch it?
And then would they be?
Would they get engrossed or beupset that they don't that
Constantine's not like a maincharacter in this.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah, that is so interesting, because I, because
even Carolyn Fiona Shaw's-character.
I guess I forgot that, like theleads in Power, because
Constantine still has like asubversive role within the 12 or
(21:14):
whoever he works with.
Yeah, but all the characterswith Power are women and most of
the people being killed are menand you don't, and it is very
much for the female gaze.
Yes, oh and you don't care.
Like you're like.
They must have done somethingto deserve it.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I mean, sometimes you feel bad.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, comeuppance, right like yeah, but usually if
there's a hit on you, you'relike that high up in some
corruption yeah, yeah, but thenlike even like poor Eve's
husband, who loves her and isjust trying to like understand
her and be there, like he's likea throwaway character in many
ways.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
How would you kill me ?
I'd paralyze you with saxotoxinand suffocate you in your sleep
, chop you into the smallestbits I could manage, boil you
down, put you in a blender, thentake you to work in a flask and
flush you down a restauranttoilet.
You've really thought aboutthat?
Smart huh, very sexy hugely.
(22:17):
Do you want supper?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
ooh, yes, thank you.
Okay, love you, love you.
I think what I love about thisshow, too, is that they're both
so flawed from the get-go andthey're like the same.
They're on the same level.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
And just or maybe like on the same spectrum and
just different ends of it, butthey all Like, they both have
like a sort of psychopath, yeah,sociopath I don't know these
terminologies it's like they'reenough of a mirror of each other
for it to be justified thatthey grow close.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I mean it feels like feels magnetic, both in the pro
and the con, Like a lot of timesthey're like pushing too close
together so they get furtherapart yeah.
And like that was.
That was always weird for me toreally wrap my head around.
It was like I don't understandhow the um cooperative romantic
relationship develops other thanmaybe they're they are just
(23:19):
like the same person, but justdifferent because, like in my
head I'm like I don't feel likethis should happen.
I feel like this is like toxic,like this oh 100.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I mean it's like it's just a mutual obsession at the
end of the day and like I don'tthink they actually love each
other, like it's definitely awhole series and show and
dynamic about the chase, youknow yeah, yeah quite literally,
but, um, and I think that's whyit felt like and dynamic about
the chase.
You know, yeah, yeah, Quiteliterally, but and I think
(23:46):
that's why it felt like wah-wahwhen they like got together.
At the end You're just likethis is so boring.
Yeah, as a viewer it's boringas a story.
It's boring Because I was never.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I was never, ever rooting for them to get together
.
No, Like I was.
Like, I'm enjoying this cat andmouse.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, and like you wanted also.
I mean, I'm now I'm justcomplaining about what's wrong
with it, but I never feltfulfilled by Eve's arc and I do
think they did a really lazy jobLike, ok, you find out that she
is like working at a Koreanrestaurant because she's, you
(24:23):
know, has Korean background, butI'm like that is such low
hanging fruit, like, but whatabout her life?
yeah like just because you'reethnic it doesn't make you
whatever.
Like it's just like.
What about her life drove herto this point to like throw away
the good life she had?
What about her life made her soobsessive about this particular
job that she did?
(24:44):
In this work?
That she did Because that'srelatable for so many of us to
just like make our careers ourentire personality.
But like, what about it?
Like we didn't get enough ofthat and I was waiting for it
and it's the only reason I keptwatching, actually.
But it became a show that Iwould just like unwind from my
(25:05):
day.
Yeah, and like this the crazyreal life stories I was hearing
and like decompressing and likeI I don't have a tv, but I have
a projector, so I would justlike every night I'd be like I'm
gonna binge a couple episodes,sometimes follow people on the
couch, but it was just like youknow, it took up my entire
living room wall and it was justlike I was like immersed in
this world.
(25:26):
And then it became a show whereI would just like have it on on
my laptop while I was foldinglaundry and like half pay
attention to you know when.
Before it was like I thinkanother thing that makes this
show so amazing and these actorsso amazing Jodie Comer in
particular is how theatrical itis.
She is so like her facialexpressions, and then
(25:48):
constantine's character fed intothat a lot, whereas like um
eve's character was more of likea verbal dynamic with the two
of them.
Ah, yes um and physicality, yeah, but as far as, like the facial
theatrical expressions go, likeconstantine and villanelle,
this is just so dynamic and Iwanted to watch it.
(26:11):
I didn't want it on while I wasdoing other things, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
It's funny how I was like we're ragging on the show
but I know you're going to talkabout the good stuff which you
turned around, but it's so funny.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
This is the first show we've had or first episode
we've had where someone's like,yeah, I about where someone's
like, yeah, I want to talk aboutthis show, but we talk about
all the problems I have with it,I mean, but also taylor, I'm
very opinionated, but I thinkthat's fair, like I think this
is an interesting discussion tohave, because I I love the way
you put it.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
It turned from a show , you sat down, it took up an
entire wall in your house.
Basically that's how interestedyou were in this thing, yeah to
something that was just on.
It became the backgroundcontent that we hate to make but
sometimes have to make.
Yeah, um, and I just thinkthat's that's such a good way to
put.
It is not like, oh, it's, I'mnot enjoying it anymore, I'll
(27:04):
stop.
It feels like more of an insultthat it has become background
noise yeah, it has become lo-fi,lo-fi villanelle.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
To study, study, to yeah, like you would like pay
attention enough to understandthe plot, but then the
circuitous like way in which itwas ending was not very neat or
cohesive because, like the, Iactually don't really remember
(27:32):
how it ended, didn't?
Villanelle dies.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Villanelle gets shot by a sniper yes, because falls
into the river, and then SandraOh's character cries yeah, she
like screams yeah yeah, yeah andthe Carolyn ordered that hit
Fiona Shaw.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, what was that all?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
about.
I mean it's fine, but it was.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
She like screams yeah , yeah, yeah.
And the Carolyn ordered thathit Fiona.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Shaw is yeah, yeah, what was that all about?
Speaker 2 (27:51):
I mean it's fine, but it was just like leading up to
that, like they just like triedto like pull us like freaking
string cheese or something, butit didn't.
Nothing stuck, you know, like itwas never.
But I mean again what I likeabout the show, like I said, you
know, watching it on my livingroom wall, like it felt very
(28:12):
immersive.
I like reading about sets andcostuming and a lot of what they
did for Villanelle's apartmentwas source like vintage
furniture of the place, likewhen she paris um and like
little knickknacks that weresort of everywhere but very
representative of the fact thatlike she had this life, that
(28:36):
where she would like collectlittle things from um.
Everything she had was likevery ornate.
You know, her clothes included,um, like anything that was in
her myths felt like special orimportant, but she had zero
attachments as a character.
So you're just like living inthese contrasts of like yeah,
(28:59):
like there was such a choice inlike putting everything together
for her, but like her characterwas very I mean not flighty
because she was like focused onher missions, but very detached.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, what does that say about her character though?
That because she is so flighty,she's all over the place Like
she is a psychopath that shekind of like not like a pack rat
, but she brings these likeornate and fanciful and things
to appreciate like closer to herwhen she could just like leave
(29:31):
that.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
She has to get get up and go and leave that apartment
yeah, I think for her characterthere's like like a youthful
indulgence um, she's verychildlike yes, I was yeah and
like, even though she's verystrategic and knows exactly what
goes on and doesn't fail atenacting her missions, she also
(29:57):
has this like wonder about her,like where she's like in awe of
things, like it'll be a splitsecond, yeah, um.
And then the way she's so sillyand always joking and you never
know if she's being serious isvery childlike, and I think they
did do a good job developingher background a bit.
It does feel also a little likeuh, obvious, it's like she was
(30:21):
a Russian gymnast or whatever.
Like I mean, I grew up in thenineties where, like, we heard
all about that stuff during theOlympics, you know it.
Just it's felt.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I grew up in the 90s where, like, we heard all about
that stuff during the Olympicsyeah.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
You know it just felt I was like OK, but the payoff
was amazing, because you knowyou have this like adult now who
was dangerous and quirky andenrapturing, like you wanted to
watch her, yeah, and she wasreally all over the place.
(30:53):
So I think, like it's not, Idon't see it as like, oh, she's
like hoarding things to keep.
It's more like, uh, like she'smaking money doing whatever
she's doing.
Yeah, I can indulge on thisluxury and just like spend it
and it doesn't matter whathappens to it, because I don't
even know what's happening liketo my future, like there's no
future.
Thinking with her right.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
It's kind of like going off of how you were
describing.
It feels like this she's a kidin a toy shop yeah like, I like
this mine, I like this mine, andthen she'll lose it in a week.
Yeah, not even be concernedabout where it went exactly
because, because nothing wasreally like.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Things were scattered around her apartment.
Yeah, um, the countertops hadlike ornate perfume bottles and
little mementos, but there wasnothing ever like in its place.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Were you around a lot of strong women growing up.
Yeah, can you talk to me aboutit In what way I just I I don't
want to.
Sometimes I feel like I'mforcing myself to read between
lines that are not there.
But what I'm genuinely curiousabout is this and again we
(32:02):
talked about how Killing Eve ismore of escapism for you.
But because of the strong,centered characters that are in
this, because of the work andthe subjects that you are
covering, like I kind of want toknow where almost the
inspiration for this came fromfor for a for a focus on
female-led stories yeah, um, Imean, I think, yeah, I
(32:26):
definitely drew grew up in aculture that is more traditional
, um, and I think what do youmean by that?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
um, like very centered around family.
Uh, not conservative, okay,thank god um, but very centered
around um the family unit andlike the traditional aspects of
like domestic labor, being likewomen and then working class men
(33:01):
, like being at work andproviding Um, and you know, I
(33:25):
think too when you come from animmigrant household, at least
here in the States, but I'm sureit happens elsewhere too Um,
it's almost like you hold ontotraditions even stronger when
you're away from, like, thehomeland.
Okay, um, in order to maintainthem and not lose them.
Um, so in that sense the womenin my family were very much like
the center of the home, um, butI still had like very loving
relationships with like the menand like my father and
(33:48):
grandfather, but the women werelike cooking and caring and kind
of calling the shots in thehome, not like subdued
personalities at all.
None of the women I also.
I was born in New Jersey andfor a time when I was a toddler,
(34:10):
I lived in a house with myparents, my grandparents and my
great grandmother from Greece,so there were four generations
in there, and my mother is anonly child.
But she grew up with a lot ofcousins, and so her first
cousins are very close to her,um, to the point where one of
(34:33):
them even came from Greece whilethey were teens, because her
mother my grandfather's sisterhad died when she was young and
so they sent her over here to goto high school okay so my mom
almost had like a built-insister at that point and so,
like all of these women and Ifeel like we birth more women or
(34:54):
more girls than boys so all ofthese women were like, you know,
even though they're my mother'sfirst cousins, they're very
much like my aunts and so likethey're always around and I just
like grew up in a space of likecackling and food and dance and
singing and gossip and yeah,you know.
(35:16):
Yeah, and yeah, my parentsworked really hard.
I was the first to go tocollege but, like I said, my
dad's mom was a midwife in thevillage and I don't think I
don't know anything about that.
Like, I think my mom has it onVHS because she took video and I
(35:41):
was there.
I was a kid Of theconversations I remember having
with her.
I don't remember her telling methis particular stuff or I just
didn't focus on it because Iwas a child, but my
understanding is that, like, shewas just not scared and I don't
think she was trained, she justwas like who else is going to
do this?
She also grew up an orphan and,like her uncle took her in but
(36:05):
she was almost like their umdomestic worker, but when he
passed she he left her the house, not his kids, um, so she was
just like, didn't really havemeans and, figured it out,
married a younger man good forher people said that she was
(36:25):
going to be barren.
She had twin boys Wow, it's aGreek tradition to name your
kids starting with the father'sside, but she named my dad after
her dad, and then the secondtwin after the holiday, oh, wow.
And then she had another boyand named him after the father's
(36:45):
side.
But she totally broke traditionand, just like, did whatever
she wanted.
She was really tough but sweetand funny.
And my other grandma was thesame way, hilarious so, and just
like took charge and like toldeverybody what to do.
So in that sense, yeah, andthey worked within the systems
(37:11):
and cultures that they werebrought up in.
You know, um, and even my mom,like, she went back to school
and got her associates when Iwas in high school, um, but, you
know, as an only child, she gotmarried really young and like,
I think part of it was becauseshe wanted her independence.
And that was the way, um, andshe's always like saying how
(37:32):
lucky she is that my dad is likesuch a great, nice man, because
she did not know what she wasgetting herself into.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
I don't want to come across, when I ask questions, as
one of those like really dumblike entertainment reporters who
asks like a male actor what'sit like?
What's it like working with afemale director?
And they're like, yeah, whatit's a director, like what the
fuck's the difference?
But I think there's.
But I'm genuinely curiousbecause I know a lot of the
films you've shown at nightschool bar have female directors
(38:00):
.
A lot of the work you've doneare set around strong female
characters and it's not like,why do you do that?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
but I like to know, kind of like where the interest
comes from yeah, to begin withit is harder for women in most
industries, but in particular inthe entertainment industry.
Um, and you know, we got overthat peak of like the me too
movement, and so that unveiledeven more about the industry and
(38:29):
the stakes that women are upagainst and the like actual
abuse that exists in thesesystems, um, and so I wanted to
yeah, I just want to be able tohighlight that, like other,
there's also a part of mepushing back on, like this
traditional way of learningabout film in particular.
(38:51):
Like I didn't go to film school, I went to journalism school.
Um, so I didn't learn about thegreats, and when people are
telling me, like you shouldwatch this person or you
shouldn't, I'm like, but that'sanother, it's another white male
perspective.
And so I started, you know,figuring out directors from
(39:12):
other countries, but, like inother cultures, and I wanted to
learn something, and then Irealized that, like, a lot of
them are men too, and my bestworking relationships have been
with women colleagues, withwomen colleagues, and there's
(39:35):
like uh an understanding oftenum of our vision that is just
innately there um.
I have been asked to explainmyself more with male colleagues
and like my decisions, even ifI'm in the director role right,
yeah um, in ways that feel likeprove it to me, versus like a
woman and just two women workingtogether on something and
(39:55):
asking each other questions.
It's like just feels veryrooted in something in um, a
baseline understanding yeah um,so yeah, I want to just be able
to show and highlight.
It's interesting.
I feel like early on in mycareer I noticed that I wasn't
(40:16):
telling a lot of women's stories, but I think that's because
much of my work is centeredaround immigrant and migrant
communities.
Ah, and most of the time incertain cultures, the men are
the spokespeople for that, orthey're like predominantly male
(40:36):
workers and like the fields andlike the farm work that I've
been telling stories about, andso there was a point in my
career where I was like why isthis happening?
And I think I need to do better.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
You primarily work with women and when you were
talking earlier about the lastPatera and there's the female
led community kind of aroundthere, so is that?
I mean it feels like it feelslike a group of women can better
tell a story about like anothercommunity of women, like
there's kind of like there's twocommunities kind of working
together to like I don't knowcapture.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Yeah, right moment yeah, and I think, like I mean I
go into communities that arenot my own and try to view
people as collaborators, learnand do the work.
Yeah, I don't think that mostmen who are making films are
(41:33):
doing that when they go intowhatever community.
But especially working withwomen and I've had, I've been on
all women documentary teamswhere afterwards the subjects
and sources were like it'sreally cool to see a completely
woman crew, even though they arenot familiar with like this
(41:56):
world, like these cameras, butthey're like it's really neat to
see this and I don't know if Iwould have been as open if it
wasn't you guys.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
I've had like women sources for lack of a better
term, right, tell us that, yeah,um, and we just, yeah, we spend
a lot of time and then likethere's a lot that's understood
and so you, we can do moreshowing than telling, which is
like golden rule number one yesum, because we know what we're
(42:26):
looking at yeah, okay, there isthat that, especially when
you're doing non-fiction work,like there's so much trust that
has to be developed between filmcrew and subject, or even if
it's just a one, one person,band and subject, and I feel
like sometimes they're therethat that work isn't there right
(42:47):
and you can really feel it likeif, as a white guy, if I go, if
I go into a community that isnot my own, like, let's just say
, from a pure story storytellingperspective, what are the odds?
I'm going in cold, that I'mgoing to get what is necessary
to tell a really good story,exactly like I have to show up
(43:07):
like almost without a camera,without anybody, and I have to
get to know the people that Well, that's what I do, I know, and
that's.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
I think that's that's what's great.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
It's like there's there's so much people don't
understand about um documentarywork journalism.
Is that what the effort thatgoes into?
It is not a date at one day'swork.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Yeah's not one week's work it's not, and I'll get on
my soapbox but the capitalistsystem that we work within does
not always allow for, especiallyin traditional journalism.
That time, um or I worked oncrews where, like I had to fight
my director to fund apre-production trip for, like a
(43:48):
very a community that wasn't myown in a state that wasn't my
own, like I was.
Like we can't just show up thatday and just have me, like,
call them like these are eldersin a community that I need to be
face to face with and we needto spend time that and talk
about whatever yeah for them tounderstand my role and for me to
(44:11):
explain what this is, thepurposes and how they can
contribute, before we go.
And we don't have time and likethe news peg is the news peg or
whatever, and that's not alwaysthe case and often those stories
(44:38):
may win awards and do reallywell.
But I'm not going to look backon the story that went the very
next day to talk to somebodyafter, like a flood.
Yeah, like you want to watchthe films that really
interrogate the why and theafter math of whatever and like
(45:00):
the people's daily lives, andthose are the stories you're
going to remember yeah, um, backto the show, the whole reason
that you are here.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
I feel like we could just keep talking.
We can keep talking about thisshit for like another two hours
this is so like fun andfrivolous.
I think the the frivolousaspect is why I like this show
too yeah, I mean, that's what Iwas kind of saying earlier
there's, there's a lot of,there's's a lot of extra that
goes along with this show.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
I have no soapbox about the show.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Well, that's what's great is like Go for it, please.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Well, I was just saying as I was prepping for
this, I was like I'm wonderingif there's something I missed,
and so I started watchinginterviews with the different
actors and in 2019, fiona Shawwas interviewed at the Edinburgh
Festival asking about why shethought it worked so well the
(46:00):
show.
And it's 2019, so this ispre-pandemic, pre-race,
reckoning all over the place.
She was basically saying howlike the world is chaos.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
In 2019.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Shocker.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
And this did provide a form of escapism.
And she also said it is notpoliticized, it's about
personality, like the plot isabout personality.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Which is true yeah we could talk all day about like
the themes and like unpack, likethe queerness of it or the
feminism of it or whatever themental health aspect, yeah, but
it's like really not any of thatstuff.
It's pure entertainment.
That's clever and witty andshot well and beautifully and
(46:51):
acted tremendously yeah, firsttwo seasons.
But I was like that is probablywhy I like it too, because I
don't allow myself that, evenlike the other fiction stuff I
watch, like there's a messagethere and you know there are so
many things I was telling youthat I wanted to Talk about like
(47:12):
Reservation Dogs.
Yeah yeah, or, which is likeprobably one of my favorite
shows, or Pen15, which wouldhave been like it's such a
girlhood movie and like reallyinterrogates, like growing up as
a hyphenated American, as aweird kid, as whatever.
Yeah, also the fact that theywere adults acting with youth
(47:33):
was just like so uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Yeah, it's so awkward .
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Yeah, acting with youth is just like so
uncomfortable.
Yeah, it's so awkward, um, yeah, but I then I was like no, I
want to talk about killing eve,because it's not any of those
things.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Yeah, but I have to like really think and cry about
when you, when you, when youtalked about you, don't allow
yourself stuff like this.
Yeah, what?
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (47:54):
I mean, I think I'm a pretty serious person, even
though I'm also very goofy andsilly and appreciate that.
But like, yeah, like everythingI at least everything I do in
my work and it's hard not towatch things and compare it to
your work or like be inspired,yeah, to do more work, yeah, but
everything I do, like I said,is like rooted in this real
(48:18):
thing that needs to get outthere and this story that needs
to be told through the rightvoice.
And I'm not the voice but likeI'm the lens and perspective in
many ways.
But you know, I'm trying tolike get other voices out there
and it's like really important.
And you know I'm reading thenews and I'm like, well, they
missed this part.
(48:38):
So I'm going to do a storyabout that part.
Um, and this is none of that andit's great and it's fun.
Um, and I guess I don't,because it is something that I
could like theoretically, workon a project someday that's
fictionalized.
Um, and I'm looking at theshots and like wanting to stage
(49:02):
my shots that way or whatever.
Um, and I'm looking at colorpalettes and like all of those
things.
Um, and it's helpful.
I can't write somebody's script, but when I'm, you know I
started as a writer primarilyand still do that type of work.
Um, just the way dialogue isjuxtaposed with detail is like
(49:26):
how I can like write things outand suss it out and in some ways
do in documentary script.
So it's still like connected ina way and I feel like it gives
me permission to think about mywork differently, more
creatively almost.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Yeah, one last thing before you go.
Do you have a favorite momentor scene from this, from the
show?
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Yeah, I think there's like one scene where Villanelle
tries to throw Constantine abirthday party and she's got all
these balloons and she likedresses up as him.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
What are you doing?
Speaker 2 (50:02):
Happy birthday.
It's not my birthday.
Dance with me.
Turn the music on.
Dance with me.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
What are you doing?
Okay, lift me, lift me.
No, I'm not the best show.
No, no.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
No, no, no, no, no.
Okay, lift me, lift me.
No, I'm not the best show, turnthis music off.
And he's like it's not even mybirthday.
She's like well, you never, Idon't know anything about you.
And their dynamic is reallyhilarious there.
I also love that.
(50:33):
Like they could have falleninto the trope of him being a
paternal figure, and he's notreally.
He's still like the buddy unclewho really cares about her and
cannot stand her.
And so like there's that scene.
But the very first scene wherewe see her, we're introduced to
(50:55):
the her essence.
She's eating ice cream.
So she's got that likechildlike thing in this very
fancy european ice cream parlor.
She's in disguise, but we don'tknow that yet.
And she sees a little girl andshe's, and when jodie comer
smiles her upper lip disappears.
It's really silly.
It's just like so good.
(51:18):
So she does that to the littlegirl eating ice cream.
The little girl just stares ather and is like who are you?
Yeah, you're weirdo.
And then the little girl looksover and starts smiling really
big.
And she looks and sees the icecream man give her his teeth
when he smiles.
So then Villanelle turns anddoes the same thing in her
awkward way because she's likeshe's clocking in, it's like I
(51:40):
should try that and she's tryingit.
She's very obviously tryingsomething.
And then little girl smilesback and she's like, huh, I
succeeded.
This is no dialogue.
She goes to pay for her icecream and she tips the guy real
big because he like like gaveher something, she got something
out of him that she utilized.
And then she walks by the girland smiles and the girl smiles
(52:03):
back and then she knocks overthe girl's pretty cup of ice
cream into her lap and keepswalking no remorse.
And you get so much out of thatthat scene.
I love the nuanced,non-dialogue scenes.
I'm not used to not askingquestions and I want to be like
how are you?
How are you?
Speaker 1 (52:24):
I'm great, we'll talk we'll do like part part two,
where you interview me, yeahyeah, I appreciate you letting
me not talk about the showthanks for coming on.
This was so much fun.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
I know it was great.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
Sometimes I get so obsessed with the idea that
whatever movie or TV show myguest loves has to come from a
really deep and insightful place, but honestly, sometimes it's
the opposite of that.
We're allowed to just beentertained.
We're allowed to see the prettycolors, hear the beautiful
sounds and just feel the vibe.
The world can be heavy, darkand full of despair, so why
(53:04):
shouldn't we allow ourselves toexperience the things that bring
us light?
Well, at least for the firsttwo seasons.
A huge thanks to Victoria forcoming over to the house today
and a very special shout out tothe awesome Jordan Mills, who
was our audio engineer duringour chat.
And I'm not going to forget tosend you as many thanks, as
Villanelle has outfits forjoining us today.
(53:26):
Real quick, before you go, Ihave a little announcement.
I'm going to read it right here, so I don't forget it.
If you are local to the Durham,north Carolina area, victoria's
film, the Lasttera, is actuallygoing to be screening at the
Carolina Theater on September18th.
You can find tickets to that inthe show notes.
You really should go check itout.
Go support Victoria and herteam.
Seriously, go do it.
(53:47):
If you enjoyed the show today,please go ahead and subscribe on
your favorite podcast platformof choice to stay up to date
with all of our episodes.
And if you happen to belistening to this on Apple
podcasts, please, pretty please,leave us a rating and review to
help us reach more awesomefolks like yourself.
As awesome as it is to havelocal folks like Jordan that I
mentioned earlier and KeatonLesko has helped us out before
Uh, they have volunteered tohelp out on the show, um, and
(54:09):
that's really great and I reallyappreciate them, but other than
that, the cost of the showcomes out of my own pocket.
So if you want to help a guyout, you can support the Film
Nuts podcast on Patreon.
For more info on that, checkout the show notes or visit
patreoncom.
Slash film nuts.
Our theme this season isbrought to us by J Mac, our
artwork is designed by MadungwaSubuhudi, and all episodes of
(54:30):
the Film Nuts podcast areproduced and edited by me,
taylor D Adams.
If you want to get in touch,you can email filmnutspodcast at
gmailcom or follow us onInstagram and TikTok at
filmnutspodcast, and don'tforget to join the Nuthouse
Discord community absolutelyfree.
It's awesome over there.
It's a ton of fun Not justsaying that by checking out the
link in the show notes as well.
Thank you all again.
So much for joining us todayand until next time.
(54:51):
I
I think about you too .
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I mean, I masturbate about you a lot.
Okay, that too much.
No, that's just, I wasn'texpecting that.
I don't have a TV, but I have aprojector.
You know, it took up my entireliving room wall and it was just
like I was like immersed inthis world.
It became a show that I wouldjust like unwind from my day and
like and like the crazy reallife stories I was hearing and
(00:26):
like decompressing.
And then it became a show whereI would just like have it on on
my laptop while I was foldinglaundry and like half pay
attention to.
I wanted to watch it.
I didn't want it on while I wasdoing other things.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hey folks, welcome back to the Film Nuts podcast, a
show about why we love what wewatch.
My name is Taylor D Adams andI'm so happy you decided to join
us today.
So, as you can hear or see, I'min a little bit of a different
location right now.
I'm in the back of my houselooking out into the backyard,
and there's a reason why I'mdoing this.
So I'm actually a littlenervous about this episode for a
(01:03):
few reasons.
First off, in contrast to whatwe normally do on the show,
today we're going to be givingpraise and criticism to a
television show.
We haven't done something likethis since our episode on Star
Wars, Episode 8, the Last Jedi.
Secondly, I'm chatting with aEmmy-nominated journalist who
has done incredible work on food, labor and immigration, and so
(01:27):
I'm a little nervous andself-conscious about my
interviewing chops myself.
And lastly, I wanted to dosomething a little different
setting-wise, so I decided tofilm in my backyard and
currently, where I'm sitting atthe moment of recording this
little introduction, I am notactually in my backyard because
it's raining, cats and dogsoutside.
But anyway, despite all theseworries and concerns, you're
(01:50):
here watching or listening tothis in the comfort of your own
home, or maybe you're in yourcar or walking your dog, or
maybe you're actually sitting onthe toilet, I don't know.
I don't care.
I just am so glad that youdecided to join us today and I
hope you enjoy the show.
Anyway, how do we deal with thebleakness that surrounds us?
How do we cope with theinjustices of the world?
(02:13):
What can temporarily free usfrom this omnipresent heaviness?
Watching a stylish and wittycat and mouse game between an
intelligence officer andassassin might be a good start.
The series Killing Eve starringJodie Comer and Sandra oh was a
colorful, escapist breath offresh air for my guest today
(02:34):
that lightened the load afterdiving deep into her work as an
investigative reporter.
Victoria Bulubasis is ajournalist and filmmaker who
found comfort in Killing Eve, atleast for the first two seasons
.
It was, as she put it, almostthe opposite of the work she
does, and as much as she enjoyedthe show, she did have a few
(02:54):
issues as the series went on.
Today we expand on that theresponsibility of documentary
filmmaking, her courses at NightSchool Bar, where we both teach
, and the value of pureentertainment.
And with that I sincerely hopeyou enjoy Victoria Bulubasis
talking about Killing Eve on theFilm Nuts podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I'm well.
I was telling you that I tookyesterday off.
It was a Thursday.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
That sounds nice.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, I needed to jump into the ocean and so I
just drove out there and spentthe day.
It was nice.
I went in twice and got to swimaround a bit.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
It just feels like really grounding to float
somehow Is that something youdid frequently like growing up
is expose yourself to the ocean,or Um.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Hmm, I don't know, my , my maternal grandmother is.
She was from an island, a GreekIsland, um, and so there's like
something there.
I'm a water sign, so there'ssomething there, I guess.
But yeah, there's somethinggrounding to me about the salt
(04:12):
water in particular, like weneed salt and we need water for
life, and it's just like there'ssomething literally essential
about it for me.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
No, I feel you.
I admittedly haven't been in anocean a couple years and it
feels like there's somethingmissing, I feel like I need to
go out there sometime thissummer and just dive in?
Do you just dive in, get aquick soak in and jump back out,
or are you swimming around andspending a fair amount of time
while you're in the water?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
It depends.
I mean, I think I'm such a bratabout it.
Nothing compares to grease andyou can see the bottom of the
ocean when you're just likefloating around in there and
like the water is just perfect.
It's a little bit, it's notchilly, but it's not hot, it's
not murky, it's just very, verysalty.
(05:02):
So you can just sort of floatand I get really wrinkly when
I'm in there.
But here it depends.
I do like the waves but I'm notlike a water sport person.
I just like to be immersed inthis like unknown vast space.
That is very something to befearful of, but like I don't
(05:25):
know, it's just really beautifulto me and I also really enjoy
um, seafood and that whatevercomes along with that culture.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
So yeah, no, I mean strong connection to any part of
the earth.
I feel like it's, it feels goodto have, like it feels
grounding, whether it's literalground, like if you go out and
lay in the grass here, or if youjust like swim in the ocean.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah so.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I get that and yeah, I'm one of those people where
whenever I go like snorkeling orsomething like in the Caribbean
and it's real deep, I reallyenjoy looking just straight down
.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I know it's wild.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
It freaks my partner out.
She's like I don't, I don'twant to see, I don't want to see
how blue it gets and howforever it goes on how forever
that's.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
That's it, yeah, and there's a whole other world
under there that we're not privyto.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah at all yeah, um, I don't want to find out.
It seems like things are scarydown there it does I mean?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I remember I remember watching Little Mermaid as a
kid and not remembering the plotat all, but just that, just
like the underwater parts, yeah,and I'm not necessarily
somebody that wants to likescuba dive and find out, but I'm
really fascinated by it and Irecently watched it with my
niece, who's three, and wewatched the original because
(06:48):
even that, like the eels, arescary, and Ursula parts, oh yeah
, and I heard that the like liveaction one was scarier for a
three-year-old so we startedwith, like the traditional
Disney one, which was veryproblematic in many ways um but
no now she's really yeah, butshe's really into like
(07:09):
pretending like she's the littlemermaid and like she ate an
oyster for the first time andthen, um, she ate mussels the
other day like she's, we're justlike exploring, like sea things
like.
I picked up a couple shells togive her, like ocean treasures.
She loves carolina beachherself.
Okay, she's always talkingabout it.
So, um, yeah, I don't know.
(07:31):
There's just such a mystery toit and, granted, like everything
, I can do research and figureit out, but yeah, kind of like
keeping that sort of imaginativemystery in my life.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah damn.
This should be an episode onthe little mermaid place no, I
mean it's really like, not anlike.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I would just go in on how sexualized they made this
young woman in the disneycartoon.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
That's yeah disney problems there's a lot disney
problems.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Hashtag disney problems well, I'm it.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
It's great that you're here.
I'm so excited that we finallygot to schedule this.
I'm glad you're enjoying sometime at the beach and that's
great.
I'd like to talk a little bitabout your work.
So you have a film that isgoing through the festival
circuit right now.
I would like to know a littlebit more about it.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Sure, it is the first feature film I directed.
It's called the Last ParteraPartera means midwife in Spanish
, and it's a film I made with myfriend and co-director, ned
Phillips, and he originallyencountered this story in Costa
(08:43):
Rica while he was visitingfriends Through like a circuit
of this person knows this person, a midwife named Miriam
Elizondo, or, respectfully,she's called Doña Miriam, and
she was the last livingtraditional midwife in her
region.
So we spent about eight yearsat least sort of chronicling, is
(09:10):
that how you pronounce it?
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Chronicling.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Chronicling yeah, there you go, but there's no
extra vowel there.
Chronicling, anyway, it's.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
CL yeah.
Documenting the story Anyway.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Her life, her life's work towards the end of her life
, um, and the influence that shehas on other women and sort of.
For me it was um, this essenceof like feminism before it
existed as a term, and somethingshe would have never described
herself as a feminist.
(09:45):
Um, she's very traditional,very catholic, um, very much
believe in women's power.
But like that term and like themodern use of it would not
probably resonate with thiswoman.
But it just shows that, likewomen, caring for each other in
community is a form of feminismthat's always existed.
Um, and so, yeah, it was abeautiful story.
(10:07):
For me, it felt somewhatpersonal as well, because on my
other side, my dad's mom was amidwife in his village, um, and
he grew up in a mountain villagesimilar to the one we were
visiting and documenting.
Um, and you know, in his lifedidn't have running water.
(10:27):
Actually, I think I don'tremember this much, but when I
was two, I went to Greece forthe first time and I still don't
think they had running water inthe village.
Um, and my mom said like we'dgo to the well and um, bring
water and heat it up for me totake a bath.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Wow.
Yeah, but then the next time Iwent there I was seven and they
had it so so I feel like fromthe work you do and the films
and art you appreciate likethere's very much a woman focus,
a women focus around thesekinds of things.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, I wonder why.
Yeah, I wonder why focus around?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
these kinds of things .
Yeah, I wonder why.
Yeah, I wonder why.
But pivoting from that, yeah.
Why did you want to talk aboutkilling Eve?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I've been racking my brain thinking about this and I
don't think it's as obvious aslike, oh, there's centering like
a woman's story or, like youknow badass women, assassins or
psychopaths, which they both are, um, I think, I think for me my
work is very rooted, likethere's a reality baseline to it
(11:40):
, um, and I can get creativeabout telling a true story,
whereas I think what I reallyenjoy about killing Eve is it's
not that at all.
It's very much like an escapism,you know, as an art form, and I
started watching it during thepandemic and during that time I
(12:01):
was doing a lot of reporting on,like all the shit that was
going down in marginalizedcommunities and doing a lot of
hard emotional work in myreporting, talking to
undocumented workers who weregetting sick, who had family
(12:25):
members dying from COVID, werenot feeling protected at work
and were essential workers butnot getting stimulus checks and,
like you know, just all thesesystemic inequities that exist
that were really brought to theforefront and unveiled during
the early pandemic especially,and so killing Eve was none of
that, stop it.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I just want to have dinner with you, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
You know, I could just like turn it on and turn
off my brain but still feelenthralled by like this
interesting drama, which we canget to this later.
But like season one was thebest, season two was great and
then the rest was really bad.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
So I think you know, I agree, I agree with you, yeah,
yeah, and I think you know thisfrom my classes I'm always like
putting something in there,like I don't really bad.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
So I think you know, I agree, I agree with you, yeah,
yeah, and I think you know thisfrom my classes.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I'm always like putting something in there, like
I don't really like to.
Just you never tell us whatthat is.
You're just like afterward belike what do you guys think I
don't like this?
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, I didn't like this and I wanted to know if I
wanted y'all to convince meotherwise.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yes, like this.
You know, anything we watchthat is outside of our world,
like our reality, is this formof escapism.
Was there something specificabout this plot, this story that
, like, triggered that sense ofescapism for you Other than like
you?
I mean, I don't know if you'rean assassin, or not, but I'm
assuming that's not your life.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
You'll never know.
Is there something that liketriggered it?
I don't know.
I mean, is there something thatlike triggered it?
I don't know.
I mean, I think, well, it wasdefinitely marketed for the
girlies.
For example, the fashionVillanelle's fashion is like
fucking amazing And-.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Jodie Comer rocks every look.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, and in the first season where she's meeting
with a counselor for the firsttime, Thank you for making such
an effort, Villanelle.
She's wearing this pink Thuledress.
Apparently, the designer blewup after that.
She's wearing this pink Thuledress and these like black
combat style boots, and she'sthe only color in the room.
(14:42):
Everything else feels moremuted and drab.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And then she's outside standing and like the
dress is blowing in the wind andit's very Carrie and Sex and
the City, with like the pinktuli, like the iconic.
It's a different style dressbut it's like to me I feel like
it's a nod to that um, and soit's very like I'm watching a
girly show, like it's not,because at first I've never
(15:07):
watched anything violent and Ididn't grow up watching violent
movies.
I'm kind of squeamish aboutthat stuff and this really
pushed me, like pushed myboundary in that sense.
I don't think I need to diginto like any sort of like
profound reason why there's,like you know, a queer love
story about women and like womendoing whatever, like yeah,
(15:29):
there's women in this story andI feel like everything is like
normalized, but it's still verylike there's girly details about
it.
It's like different from justlike being a woman's show.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I'm a a guy, so this, I'm a guy, so this, uh, this
show, marketing wise, was likenot targeted toward me, like I
saw some advertisements for it,didn't really know what it was.
Like I recognize Sandra.
Oh, I like her, um, I've seenher in some stuff and I had
heard some, just like some filmand TV podcasts like
recommending this Um, and and TVpodcasts like recommending this
(16:06):
um, and they provided liketheir reasons why they like it.
And when I found out that itwas Phoebe Waller-Bridge that
was doing it, I was like, okay,let's give it a shot.
And yeah, I was.
I was hooked on that firstseason.
I was like this is, this is fun, this is dangerous, this is
sexy, it's funny, like it'sreally.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
It's really funny.
It's really funny.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
We all have shows or movies that are, like the
marketing is like, targetedtoward certain demographic in
order to get them to watch,right, but it's fascinating to
me when a demographic who is nottargeted for this also enjoys
it.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
And it's not like I was.
You know it's not.
It doesn't come as a surpriseto me that I enjoyed it, because
I literally think that firstseason is excellent television
For certain material that wouldbe beneficial for the four
quadrants basically to see, buta lot of times it's difficult to
get what you want them to seein front of them, or even to get
(17:02):
them to press play.
Play on it, excuse me.
Uh, do you think there'ssomething we can do about that?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
hmm, that's a great question.
I don't.
It's really hard for me tothink along that vein because I
feel like everything I do and Ienjoy is less I sound like such
an asshole less mainstream.
But you know what I mean.
It's like I'm always drawn to,like I'm not always going to be
(17:33):
excited about whateverblockbuster movies out in
theaters and like dying to seeit, and I just think that,
unfortunately for my bankaccount, my brain doesn't think
in a way.
That's like how can we marketthis?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Right To everyone, yeah, everyone.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
And it's like and I think it's things shouldn't.
That's where things get dilutedand that's probably why the
last two seasons were real shitand like they phoned it in
completely.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Well, Feebwell or Bridge and Emeraldald Fennell
weren't involved in the showanymore for those last two,
right?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Nope, they weren't.
Yeah, and they really, I think,capitalized on like their love
story, but it wasn't fleshed outin a way that felt like enough,
like it wasn't smart.
I remember they were oh gosh,when Constantine died Stop.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Stop.
No, I have a letter in my bag.
Bring it to Karen Martins forme.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
And tell her I always loved her.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I'm so proud of you.
I love that actor.
I've seen him in many.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I think he's my favorite character.
I mean, it's hard to competewith Villanelle, but I love him
so much, I love that man so muchLike I just want to drink and
play cards with him.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
You know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
He's amazing.
He's so sweet, sweet and Idon't know.
He's just so good and like thatweird chuckle that he has that
abrupt, like so good.
Um, and their dynamic andchemistry was really wonderful.
He and villanelle and thewriting, especially in the first
two seasons, like helped drawout and develop their arcs.
(19:29):
Um, but then when he died, I Iliked that.
It was sweet that he was tryingto save this young woman who
was like newly coming in.
But I was reading on Reddit atone point about how people were
so pissed off that they reallyloved this actor.
But she was, her character wasso flat in that last season and
they just like introduced hertoo quickly and then to have her
(19:52):
kill him was just like didn'tdo his character over the four
seasons justice and um, I agreewith that, but what was the
question?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Well, just keep going , whatever you're doing, I mean,
we're talking, we have I thinkthat's a great point that we
talk about Constantine.
Like there are you know this,this like marketability, like I
feel like there might have beenan opportunity in some kind of
just like you know, you can domarketing materials about
anything Like you pop up inNetflix and the algorithm
generates the thumbnail thatthey think you will most likely
(20:25):
click on.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Or like the preview, Right right.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Or some guy somewhere .
All he's watching on his queueis like bro-led, like violence
movies.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
If you had Killing Eve come up as a thumbnail and
you had Constantine as thethumbnail like would that
trigger them to watch it?
And then would they be?
Would they get engrossed or beupset that they don't that
Constantine's not like a maincharacter in this.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah, that is so interesting, because I, because
even Carolyn Fiona Shaw's-character.
I guess I forgot that, like theleads in Power, because
Constantine still has like asubversive role within the 12 or
(21:14):
whoever he works with.
Yeah, but all the characterswith Power are women and most of
the people being killed are menand you don't, and it is very
much for the female gaze.
Yes, oh and you don't care.
Like you're like.
They must have done somethingto deserve it.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I mean, sometimes you feel bad.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, comeuppance, right like yeah, but usually if
there's a hit on you, you'relike that high up in some
corruption yeah, yeah, but thenlike even like poor Eve's
husband, who loves her and isjust trying to like understand
her and be there, like he's likea throwaway character in many
ways.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
How would you kill me ?
I'd paralyze you with saxotoxinand suffocate you in your sleep
, chop you into the smallestbits I could manage, boil you
down, put you in a blender, thentake you to work in a flask and
flush you down a restauranttoilet.
You've really thought aboutthat?
Smart huh, very sexy hugely.
(22:17):
Do you want supper?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
ooh, yes, thank you.
Okay, love you, love you.
I think what I love about thisshow, too, is that they're both
so flawed from the get-go andthey're like the same.
They're on the same level.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
And just or maybe like on the same spectrum and
just different ends of it, butthey all Like, they both have
like a sort of psychopath, yeah,sociopath I don't know these
terminologies it's like they'reenough of a mirror of each other
for it to be justified thatthey grow close.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I mean it feels like feels magnetic, both in the pro
and the con, Like a lot of timesthey're like pushing too close
together so they get furtherapart yeah.
And like that was.
That was always weird for me toreally wrap my head around.
It was like I don't understandhow the um cooperative romantic
relationship develops other thanmaybe they're they are just
(23:19):
like the same person, but justdifferent because, like in my
head I'm like I don't feel likethis should happen.
I feel like this is like toxic,like this oh 100.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I mean it's like it's just a mutual obsession at the
end of the day and like I don'tthink they actually love each
other, like it's definitely awhole series and show and
dynamic about the chase, youknow yeah, yeah quite literally,
but, um, and I think that's whyit felt like and dynamic about
the chase.
You know, yeah, yeah, Quiteliterally, but and I think
(23:46):
that's why it felt like wah-wahwhen they like got together.
At the end You're just likethis is so boring.
Yeah, as a viewer it's boringas a story.
It's boring Because I was never.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I was never, ever rooting for them to get together
.
No, Like I was.
Like, I'm enjoying this cat andmouse.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, and like you wanted also.
I mean, I'm now I'm justcomplaining about what's wrong
with it, but I never feltfulfilled by Eve's arc and I do
think they did a really lazy jobLike, ok, you find out that she
is like working at a Koreanrestaurant because she's, you
(24:23):
know, has Korean background, butI'm like that is such low
hanging fruit, like, but whatabout her life?
yeah like just because you'reethnic it doesn't make you
whatever.
Like it's just like.
What about her life drove herto this point to like throw away
the good life she had?
What about her life made her soobsessive about this particular
job that she did?
(24:44):
In this work?
That she did Because that'srelatable for so many of us to
just like make our careers ourentire personality.
But like, what about it?
Like we didn't get enough ofthat and I was waiting for it
and it's the only reason I keptwatching, actually.
But it became a show that Iwould just like unwind from my
(25:05):
day.
Yeah, and like this the crazyreal life stories I was hearing
and like decompressing and likeI I don't have a tv, but I have
a projector, so I would justlike every night I'd be like I'm
gonna binge a couple episodes,sometimes follow people on the
couch, but it was just like youknow, it took up my entire
living room wall and it was justlike I was like immersed in
this world.
(25:26):
And then it became a show whereI would just like have it on on
my laptop while I was foldinglaundry and like half pay
attention to you know when.
Before it was like I thinkanother thing that makes this
show so amazing and these actorsso amazing Jodie Comer in
particular is how theatrical itis.
She is so like her facialexpressions, and then
(25:48):
constantine's character fed intothat a lot, whereas like um
eve's character was more of likea verbal dynamic with the two
of them.
Ah, yes um and physicality, yeah, but as far as, like the facial
theatrical expressions go, likeconstantine and villanelle,
this is just so dynamic and Iwanted to watch it.
(26:11):
I didn't want it on while I wasdoing other things, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
It's funny how I was like we're ragging on the show
but I know you're going to talkabout the good stuff which you
turned around, but it's so funny.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
This is the first show we've had or first episode
we've had where someone's like,yeah, I about where someone's
like, yeah, I want to talk aboutthis show, but we talk about
all the problems I have with it,I mean, but also taylor, I'm
very opinionated, but I thinkthat's fair, like I think this
is an interesting discussion tohave, because I I love the way
you put it.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
It turned from a show , you sat down, it took up an
entire wall in your house.
Basically that's how interestedyou were in this thing, yeah to
something that was just on.
It became the backgroundcontent that we hate to make but
sometimes have to make.
Yeah, um, and I just thinkthat's that's such a good way to
put.
It is not like, oh, it's, I'mnot enjoying it anymore, I'll
(27:04):
stop.
It feels like more of an insultthat it has become background
noise yeah, it has become lo-fi,lo-fi villanelle.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
To study, study, to yeah, like you would like pay
attention enough to understandthe plot, but then the
circuitous like way in which itwas ending was not very neat or
cohesive because, like the, Iactually don't really remember
(27:32):
how it ended, didn't?
Villanelle dies.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Villanelle gets shot by a sniper yes, because falls
into the river, and then SandraOh's character cries yeah, she
like screams yeah yeah, yeah andthe Carolyn ordered that hit
Fiona Shaw.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, what was that all?
Speaker 1 (27:48):
about.
I mean it's fine, but it was.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
She like screams yeah , yeah, yeah.
And the Carolyn ordered thathit Fiona.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Shaw is yeah, yeah, what was that all about?
Speaker 2 (27:51):
I mean it's fine, but it was just like leading up to
that, like they just like triedto like pull us like freaking
string cheese or something, butit didn't.
Nothing stuck, you know, like itwas never.
But I mean again what I likeabout the show, like I said, you
know, watching it on my livingroom wall, like it felt very
(28:12):
immersive.
I like reading about sets andcostuming and a lot of what they
did for Villanelle's apartmentwas source like vintage
furniture of the place, likewhen she paris um and like
little knickknacks that weresort of everywhere but very
representative of the fact thatlike she had this life, that
(28:36):
where she would like collectlittle things from um.
Everything she had was likevery ornate.
You know, her clothes included,um, like anything that was in
her myths felt like special orimportant, but she had zero
attachments as a character.
So you're just like living inthese contrasts of like yeah,
(28:59):
like there was such a choice inlike putting everything together
for her, but like her characterwas very I mean not flighty
because she was like focused onher missions, but very detached.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, what does that say about her character though?
That because she is so flighty,she's all over the place Like
she is a psychopath that shekind of like not like a pack rat
, but she brings these likeornate and fanciful and things
to appreciate like closer to herwhen she could just like leave
(29:31):
that.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
She has to get get up and go and leave that apartment
yeah, I think for her characterthere's like like a youthful
indulgence um, she's verychildlike yes, I was yeah and
like, even though she's verystrategic and knows exactly what
goes on and doesn't fail atenacting her missions, she also
(29:57):
has this like wonder about her,like where she's like in awe of
things, like it'll be a splitsecond, yeah, um.
And then the way she's so sillyand always joking and you never
know if she's being serious isvery childlike, and I think they
did do a good job developingher background a bit.
It does feel also a little likeuh, obvious, it's like she was
(30:21):
a Russian gymnast or whatever.
Like I mean, I grew up in thenineties where, like, we heard
all about that stuff during theOlympics, you know it.
Just it's felt.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I grew up in the 90s where, like, we heard all about
that stuff during the Olympicsyeah.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
You know it just felt I was like OK, but the payoff
was amazing, because you knowyou have this like adult now who
was dangerous and quirky andenrapturing, like you wanted to
watch her, yeah, and she wasreally all over the place.
(30:53):
So I think, like it's not, Idon't see it as like, oh, she's
like hoarding things to keep.
It's more like, uh, like she'smaking money doing whatever
she's doing.
Yeah, I can indulge on thisluxury and just like spend it
and it doesn't matter whathappens to it, because I don't
even know what's happening liketo my future, like there's no
future.
Thinking with her right.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
It's kind of like going off of how you were
describing.
It feels like this she's a kidin a toy shop yeah like, I like
this mine, I like this mine, andthen she'll lose it in a week.
Yeah, not even be concernedabout where it went exactly
because, because nothing wasreally like.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Things were scattered around her apartment.
Yeah, um, the countertops hadlike ornate perfume bottles and
little mementos, but there wasnothing ever like in its place.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Were you around a lot of strong women growing up.
Yeah, can you talk to me aboutit In what way I just I I don't
want to.
Sometimes I feel like I'mforcing myself to read between
lines that are not there.
But what I'm genuinely curiousabout is this and again we
(32:02):
talked about how Killing Eve ismore of escapism for you.
But because of the strong,centered characters that are in
this, because of the work andthe subjects that you are
covering, like I kind of want toknow where almost the
inspiration for this came fromfor for a for a focus on
female-led stories yeah, um, Imean, I think, yeah, I
(32:26):
definitely drew grew up in aculture that is more traditional
, um, and I think what do youmean by that?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
um, like very centered around family.
Uh, not conservative, okay,thank god um, but very centered
around um the family unit andlike the traditional aspects of
like domestic labor, being likewomen and then working class men
(33:01):
, like being at work andproviding Um, and you know, I
(33:25):
think too when you come from animmigrant household, at least
here in the States, but I'm sureit happens elsewhere too Um,
it's almost like you hold ontotraditions even stronger when
you're away from, like, thehomeland.
Okay, um, in order to maintainthem and not lose them.
Um, so in that sense the womenin my family were very much like
the center of the home, um, butI still had like very loving
relationships with like the menand like my father and
(33:48):
grandfather, but the women werelike cooking and caring and kind
of calling the shots in thehome, not like subdued
personalities at all.
None of the women I also.
I was born in New Jersey andfor a time when I was a toddler,
(34:10):
I lived in a house with myparents, my grandparents and my
great grandmother from Greece,so there were four generations
in there, and my mother is anonly child.
But she grew up with a lot ofcousins, and so her first
cousins are very close to her,um, to the point where one of
(34:33):
them even came from Greece whilethey were teens, because her
mother my grandfather's sisterhad died when she was young and
so they sent her over here to goto high school okay so my mom
almost had like a built-insister at that point and so,
like all of these women and Ifeel like we birth more women or
(34:54):
more girls than boys so all ofthese women were like, you know,
even though they're my mother'sfirst cousins, they're very
much like my aunts and so likethey're always around and I just
like grew up in a space of likecackling and food and dance and
singing and gossip and yeah,you know.
(35:16):
Yeah, and yeah, my parentsworked really hard.
I was the first to go tocollege but, like I said, my
dad's mom was a midwife in thevillage and I don't think I
don't know anything about that.
Like, I think my mom has it onVHS because she took video and I
(35:41):
was there.
I was a kid Of theconversations I remember having
with her.
I don't remember her telling methis particular stuff or I just
didn't focus on it because Iwas a child, but my
understanding is that, like, shewas just not scared and I don't
think she was trained, she justwas like who else is going to
do this?
She also grew up an orphan and,like her uncle took her in but
(36:05):
she was almost like their umdomestic worker, but when he
passed she he left her the house, not his kids, um, so she was
just like, didn't really havemeans and, figured it out,
married a younger man good forher people said that she was
(36:25):
going to be barren.
She had twin boys Wow, it's aGreek tradition to name your
kids starting with the father'sside, but she named my dad after
her dad, and then the secondtwin after the holiday, oh, wow.
And then she had another boyand named him after the father's
(36:45):
side.
But she totally broke traditionand, just like, did whatever
she wanted.
She was really tough but sweetand funny.
And my other grandma was thesame way, hilarious so, and just
like took charge and like toldeverybody what to do.
So in that sense, yeah, andthey worked within the systems
(37:11):
and cultures that they werebrought up in.
You know, um, and even my mom,like, she went back to school
and got her associates when Iwas in high school, um, but, you
know, as an only child, she gotmarried really young and like,
I think part of it was becauseshe wanted her independence.
And that was the way, um, andshe's always like saying how
(37:32):
lucky she is that my dad is likesuch a great, nice man, because
she did not know what she wasgetting herself into.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
I don't want to come across, when I ask questions, as
one of those like really dumblike entertainment reporters who
asks like a male actor what'sit like?
What's it like working with afemale director?
And they're like, yeah, whatit's a director, like what the
fuck's the difference?
But I think there's.
But I'm genuinely curiousbecause I know a lot of the
films you've shown at nightschool bar have female directors
(38:00):
.
A lot of the work you've doneare set around strong female
characters and it's not like,why do you do that?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
but I like to know, kind of like where the interest
comes from yeah, to begin withit is harder for women in most
industries, but in particular inthe entertainment industry.
Um, and you know, we got overthat peak of like the me too
movement, and so that unveiledeven more about the industry and
(38:29):
the stakes that women are upagainst and the like actual
abuse that exists in thesesystems, um, and so I wanted to
yeah, I just want to be able tohighlight that, like other,
there's also a part of mepushing back on, like this
traditional way of learningabout film in particular.
(38:51):
Like I didn't go to film school, I went to journalism school.
Um, so I didn't learn about thegreats, and when people are
telling me, like you shouldwatch this person or you
shouldn't, I'm like, but that'sanother, it's another white male
perspective.
And so I started, you know,figuring out directors from
(39:12):
other countries, but, like inother cultures, and I wanted to
learn something, and then Irealized that, like, a lot of
them are men too, and my bestworking relationships have been
with women colleagues, withwomen colleagues, and there's
(39:35):
like uh an understanding oftenum of our vision that is just
innately there um.
I have been asked to explainmyself more with male colleagues
and like my decisions, even ifI'm in the director role right,
yeah um, in ways that feel likeprove it to me, versus like a
woman and just two women workingtogether on something and
(39:55):
asking each other questions.
It's like just feels veryrooted in something in um, a
baseline understanding yeah um,so yeah, I want to just be able
to show and highlight.
It's interesting.
I feel like early on in mycareer I noticed that I wasn't
(40:16):
telling a lot of women's stories, but I think that's because
much of my work is centeredaround immigrant and migrant
communities.
Ah, and most of the time incertain cultures, the men are
the spokespeople for that, orthey're like predominantly male
(40:36):
workers and like the fields andlike the farm work that I've
been telling stories about, andso there was a point in my
career where I was like why isthis happening?
And I think I need to do better.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
You primarily work with women and when you were
talking earlier about the lastPatera and there's the female
led community kind of aroundthere, so is that?
I mean it feels like it feelslike a group of women can better
tell a story about like anothercommunity of women, like
there's kind of like there's twocommunities kind of working
together to like I don't knowcapture.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Yeah, right moment yeah, and I think, like I mean I
go into communities that arenot my own and try to view
people as collaborators, learnand do the work.
Yeah, I don't think that mostmen who are making films are
(41:33):
doing that when they go intowhatever community.
But especially working withwomen and I've had, I've been on
all women documentary teamswhere afterwards the subjects
and sources were like it'sreally cool to see a completely
woman crew, even though they arenot familiar with like this
(41:56):
world, like these cameras, butthey're like it's really neat to
see this and I don't know if Iwould have been as open if it
wasn't you guys.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
I've had like women sources for lack of a better
term, right, tell us that, yeah,um, and we just, yeah, we spend
a lot of time and then likethere's a lot that's understood
and so you, we can do moreshowing than telling, which is
like golden rule number one yesum, because we know what we're
(42:26):
looking at yeah, okay, there isthat that, especially when
you're doing non-fiction work,like there's so much trust that
has to be developed between filmcrew and subject, or even if
it's just a one, one person,band and subject, and I feel
like sometimes they're therethat that work isn't there right
(42:47):
and you can really feel it likeif, as a white guy, if I go, if
I go into a community that isnot my own, like, let's just say
, from a pure story storytellingperspective, what are the odds?
I'm going in cold, that I'mgoing to get what is necessary
to tell a really good story,exactly like I have to show up
(43:07):
like almost without a camera,without anybody, and I have to
get to know the people that Well, that's what I do, I know, and
that's.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
I think that's that's what's great.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
It's like there's there's so much people don't
understand about um documentarywork journalism.
Is that what the effort thatgoes into?
It is not a date at one day'swork.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Yeah's not one week's work it's not, and I'll get on
my soapbox but the capitalistsystem that we work within does
not always allow for, especiallyin traditional journalism.
That time, um or I worked oncrews where, like I had to fight
my director to fund apre-production trip for, like a
(43:48):
very a community that wasn't myown in a state that wasn't my
own, like I was.
Like we can't just show up thatday and just have me, like,
call them like these are eldersin a community that I need to be
face to face with and we needto spend time that and talk
about whatever yeah for them tounderstand my role and for me to
(44:11):
explain what this is, thepurposes and how they can
contribute, before we go.
And we don't have time and likethe news peg is the news peg or
whatever, and that's not alwaysthe case and often those stories
(44:38):
may win awards and do reallywell.
But I'm not going to look backon the story that went the very
next day to talk to somebodyafter, like a flood.
Yeah, like you want to watchthe films that really
interrogate the why and theafter math of whatever and like
(45:00):
the people's daily lives, andthose are the stories you're
going to remember yeah, um, backto the show, the whole reason
that you are here.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
I feel like we could just keep talking.
We can keep talking about thisshit for like another two hours
this is so like fun andfrivolous.
I think the the frivolousaspect is why I like this show
too yeah, I mean, that's what Iwas kind of saying earlier
there's, there's a lot of,there's's a lot of extra that
goes along with this show.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
I have no soapbox about the show.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Well, that's what's great is like Go for it, please.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Well, I was just saying as I was prepping for
this, I was like I'm wonderingif there's something I missed,
and so I started watchinginterviews with the different
actors and in 2019, fiona Shawwas interviewed at the Edinburgh
Festival asking about why shethought it worked so well the
(46:00):
show.
And it's 2019, so this ispre-pandemic, pre-race,
reckoning all over the place.
She was basically saying howlike the world is chaos.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
In 2019.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Shocker.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
And this did provide a form of escapism.
And she also said it is notpoliticized, it's about
personality, like the plot isabout personality.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Which is true yeah we could talk all day about like
the themes and like unpack, likethe queerness of it or the
feminism of it or whatever themental health aspect, yeah, but
it's like really not any of thatstuff.
It's pure entertainment.
That's clever and witty andshot well and beautifully and
(46:51):
acted tremendously yeah, firsttwo seasons.
But I was like that is probablywhy I like it too, because I
don't allow myself that, evenlike the other fiction stuff I
watch, like there's a messagethere and you know there are so
many things I was telling youthat I wanted to Talk about like
(47:12):
Reservation Dogs.
Yeah yeah, or, which is likeprobably one of my favorite
shows, or Pen15, which wouldhave been like it's such a
girlhood movie and like reallyinterrogates, like growing up as
a hyphenated American, as aweird kid, as whatever.
Yeah, also the fact that theywere adults acting with youth
(47:33):
was just like so uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Yeah, it's so awkward .
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Yeah, acting with youth is just like so
uncomfortable.
Yeah, it's so awkward, um, yeah, but I then I was like no, I
want to talk about killing eve,because it's not any of those
things.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Yeah, but I have to like really think and cry about
when you, when you, when youtalked about you, don't allow
yourself stuff like this.
Yeah, what?
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (47:54):
I mean, I think I'm a pretty serious person, even
though I'm also very goofy andsilly and appreciate that.
But like, yeah, like everythingI at least everything I do in
my work and it's hard not towatch things and compare it to
your work or like be inspired,yeah, to do more work, yeah, but
everything I do, like I said,is like rooted in this real
(48:18):
thing that needs to get outthere and this story that needs
to be told through the rightvoice.
And I'm not the voice but likeI'm the lens and perspective in
many ways.
But you know, I'm trying tolike get other voices out there
and it's like really important.
And you know I'm reading thenews and I'm like, well, they
missed this part.
(48:38):
So I'm going to do a storyabout that part.
Um, and this is none of that andit's great and it's fun.
Um, and I guess I don't,because it is something that I
could like theoretically, workon a project someday that's
fictionalized.
Um, and I'm looking at theshots and like wanting to stage
(49:02):
my shots that way or whatever.
Um, and I'm looking at colorpalettes and like all of those
things.
Um, and it's helpful.
I can't write somebody's script, but when I'm, you know I
started as a writer primarilyand still do that type of work.
Um, just the way dialogue isjuxtaposed with detail is like
(49:26):
how I can like write things outand suss it out and in some ways
do in documentary script.
So it's still like connected ina way and I feel like it gives
me permission to think about mywork differently, more
creatively almost.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Yeah, one last thing before you go.
Do you have a favorite momentor scene from this, from the
show?
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Yeah, I think there's like one scene where Villanelle
tries to throw Constantine abirthday party and she's got all
these balloons and she likedresses up as him.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
What are you doing?
Speaker 2 (50:02):
Happy birthday.
It's not my birthday.
Dance with me.
Turn the music on.
Dance with me.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
What are you doing?
Okay, lift me, lift me.
No, I'm not the best show.
No, no.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
No, no, no, no, no.
Okay, lift me, lift me.
No, I'm not the best show, turnthis music off.
And he's like it's not even mybirthday.
She's like well, you never, Idon't know anything about you.
And their dynamic is reallyhilarious there.
I also love that.
(50:33):
Like they could have falleninto the trope of him being a
paternal figure, and he's notreally.
He's still like the buddy unclewho really cares about her and
cannot stand her.
And so like there's that scene.
But the very first scene wherewe see her, we're introduced to
(50:55):
the her essence.
She's eating ice cream.
So she's got that likechildlike thing in this very
fancy european ice cream parlor.
She's in disguise, but we don'tknow that yet.
And she sees a little girl andshe's, and when jodie comer
smiles her upper lip disappears.
It's really silly.
It's just like so good.
(51:18):
So she does that to the littlegirl eating ice cream.
The little girl just stares ather and is like who are you?
Yeah, you're weirdo.
And then the little girl looksover and starts smiling really
big.
And she looks and sees the icecream man give her his teeth
when he smiles.
So then Villanelle turns anddoes the same thing in her
awkward way because she's likeshe's clocking in, it's like I
(51:40):
should try that and she's tryingit.
She's very obviously tryingsomething.
And then little girl smilesback and she's like, huh, I
succeeded.
This is no dialogue.
She goes to pay for her icecream and she tips the guy real
big because he like like gaveher something, she got something
out of him that she utilized.
And then she walks by the girland smiles and the girl smiles
(52:03):
back and then she knocks overthe girl's pretty cup of ice
cream into her lap and keepswalking no remorse.
And you get so much out of thatthat scene.
I love the nuanced,non-dialogue scenes.
I'm not used to not askingquestions and I want to be like
how are you?
How are you?
Speaker 1 (52:24):
I'm great, we'll talk we'll do like part part two,
where you interview me, yeahyeah, I appreciate you letting
me not talk about the showthanks for coming on.
This was so much fun.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
I know it was great.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
Sometimes I get so obsessed with the idea that
whatever movie or TV show myguest loves has to come from a
really deep and insightful place, but honestly, sometimes it's
the opposite of that.
We're allowed to just beentertained.
We're allowed to see the prettycolors, hear the beautiful
sounds and just feel the vibe.
The world can be heavy, darkand full of despair, so why
(53:04):
shouldn't we allow ourselves toexperience the things that bring
us light?
Well, at least for the firsttwo seasons.
A huge thanks to Victoria forcoming over to the house today
and a very special shout out tothe awesome Jordan Mills, who
was our audio engineer duringour chat.
And I'm not going to forget tosend you as many thanks, as
Villanelle has outfits forjoining us today.
(53:26):
Real quick, before you go, Ihave a little announcement.
I'm going to read it right here, so I don't forget it.
If you are local to the Durham,north Carolina area, victoria's
film, the Lasttera, is actuallygoing to be screening at the
Carolina Theater on September18th.
You can find tickets to that inthe show notes.
You really should go check itout.
Go support Victoria and herteam.
Seriously, go do it.
(53:47):
If you enjoyed the show today,please go ahead and subscribe on
your favorite podcast platformof choice to stay up to date
with all of our episodes.
And if you happen to belistening to this on Apple
podcasts, please, pretty please,leave us a rating and review to
help us reach more awesomefolks like yourself.
As awesome as it is to havelocal folks like Jordan that I
mentioned earlier and KeatonLesko has helped us out before
Uh, they have volunteered tohelp out on the show, um, and
(54:09):
that's really great and I reallyappreciate them, but other than
that, the cost of the showcomes out of my own pocket.
So if you want to help a guyout, you can support the Film
Nuts podcast on Patreon.
For more info on that, checkout the show notes or visit
patreoncom.
Slash film nuts.
Our theme this season isbrought to us by J Mac, our
artwork is designed by MadungwaSubuhudi, and all episodes of
(54:30):
the Film Nuts podcast areproduced and edited by me,
taylor D Adams.
If you want to get in touch,you can email filmnutspodcast at
gmailcom or follow us onInstagram and TikTok at
filmnutspodcast, and don'tforget to join the Nuthouse
Discord community absolutelyfree.
It's awesome over there.
It's a ton of fun Not justsaying that by checking out the
link in the show notes as well.
Thank you all again.
So much for joining us todayand until next time.
(54:51):
I
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