How to talk about your work with Robbie Swale [#27]

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Robbie Swale is a leadership coach who has built a successful practice of empowering clients to unlock their potential to thrive in their career, work, and life paths. Robbie’s clients include entrepreneurs, investors, theatre directors, and even other coaches.

In this episode, Robbie shares his coaching journey, discusses getting comfortable with talking about money, the importance of honesty, and how we can improve our practices from learning through conversations with others. Key points throughout the episode include:

• Being authentic and not compromising values. 
• Obtaining the first 10 customers.
• Robbie’s professional false starts and his coaching pathway. 
• Learning and experiencing by doing. 
• The benefits of feeling and embracing resistance. 
• An insight into Robbie’s enrolment process. 
• Getting comfortable with money and learning to sell your services from the get-go.
• The practice of looking at the bigger picture and end goal.
• The key approach of honesty and simplicity.
• The value of referrals, the gift of a session, and planting seeds. 
• Tips on how to develop your coaching skills. 
• The Coach’s Journey and creating for your community. 
• Advice for finding your first 10 coaching customers. 

Robbie also hosts The Coach's Journey program and podcast which is dedicated to supporting coaches to take their business to a new level, creating work that supports them to live an extraordinary life, whatever that means for them. 

Connect with Robbie Swale:

http://www.robbieswalecoaching.com/ 

http://www.thecoachsjourney.com/

http://www.linkedin.com/in/robbieswale 

http://twitter.com/RobbieSwale 
 

Connect with First 10 Podcast host Conor McCarthy: 

http://www.first10podcast.com  

http://twitter.com/TheFirst10Pod 

http://www.linkedin.com/in/comccart/ 

Resources:

War of Art by Steven Pressfield

http://www.amazon.com/War-Art-Winning-Creative-Battle-audio-cd/dp/1501260626 

Coach Training Organisation recommended by Robbie 

http://www.coachesrising.com/ 

The First 10 Podcast is produced in partnership with podlad.com

Episode Transcript

Robbie Swale (00:01):
You want that honesty and integrity to be
present, because you won't beplanting seeds so that every
relationship and interaction youhave could lead to clients at
some point and business at somepoint in some way, even if it
doesn't now.

Conor McCarthy (00:14):
Welcome back to the first 10 podcast. I'm your
host Conor McCarthy. And in eachepisode, I interview Business
Builders on their first 10customers who they were, how
they found them, how they talkedto them and what effect they had
on their business so that youcan learn what worked and what
didn't.
When I'm not recordingpodcasts, I help Business
Builders find their first 10customers and grow their

(00:34):
businesses. I do that with oneto one coaching and a series of
online workshops. please docheck out my website Conor
mccarthy.me. For more detailsand to sign up to my newsletter.
I hope you enjoyed this show. Ontoday's podcast, I go deep with
my guest, Robbie swale on whatit takes to build a successful
coaching practice. Robbie hasbeen coaching full time for the

(00:54):
last six years. He got startedafter a career change led him to
realize that the parts of hisjobs that he enjoyed the most
and excelled at was when he wasinadvertently coaching people.
So he took the baton on here weare today. In this episode, we
chat about the early stage ofthe journey Robbie has taken to
his well established practice.
In particular, we talk about howto find your first client by
borrowing successful pitchesfrom others. Creating a body of

(01:17):
work that helps you earn trustwith a wider audience,
experimenting and playing withcoaching formats in a low risk
way. And feeling the resistanceand taking that as a signpost
that, that's the thing you needto do next. We also talk an
awful lot about pricing, it's areally fascinating part of the
discussion of what it means toget comfortable talking about
money.

Robbie Swale (01:38):
So much of what we cover in this conversation falls
under the banner of trust, bothbuilding it and earning it.
Robbie has a great way ofcommunicating to things that
have helped him the most ingetting to this point of keeping
it simple. He's a really smartobserver of himself and his
work. And his use that to createa business that provides value
both to his clients, and othercoaches through his community

(01:59):
for coaches called the coach'sjourney. please do check out the
show notes for links to all ofRobbie's work, as well as a
really useful resource thatRobbie mentioned in the podcast
that he used to get his firstthree customers. It's actually
really simple and really handy.
Please do enjoy this podcastwith Robbie Swale.

Conor McCarthy (02:16):
So Robbie Swale, first of all, thank you very,
very much for taking the time tobe with us here today.

Robbie Swale (02:25):
Conor, it is an absolute pleasure.

Conor McCarthy (02:27):
You and I've been friends through the akimbo
universe for a couple of yearsnow. And I said before we
started recording I have I have,I feel like I've watched or
heard or I don't know so muchabout your coach's journey. So
do you wanna, just tell theaudience what you do. And then
maybe we'll jump back a time andgo right back to the start of
where it all began?

Robbie Swale (02:46):
Yeah, yeah, I do, I do share a lot about what
happens in my work. And that hasbecome a part of how I, how I
operate, really. So what I donow, you know, I call myself a
leadership coach at the toplevel, but really, that's just
my way of opening upconversations with the right
people in the right way orhoping that I do that. There are

(03:07):
kind of three parts of my workor three things that I'm
interested in. One of them is,in some ways, creativity. So
it's like why do people who wantto do things sometimes not do
them? And how can I help them dothat, and that might be write a
book, start a business, just,you know, change their career,

(03:27):
start a relationship, you know,any of these things that the for
some reason, we often reallywant but don't take the action
to do. And I partly gotinterested in that, because that
was me. And I found some ways towork through that. And then I
got, I get really excited whencool, like ordinary people make
cool things happen in theirlives. So that's like one part.
Another part is the kind of pureleadership part. So that's when

(03:50):
someone is a successful leaderin their organization or as an
entrepreneur, like but theythey're reaching some kind of
point where the way theyoperates so far, isn't going to
take them to the next level ofwhat they want, whether that's
kind of bigger success, or justa different quality to it.
I get interested in that. And atthe moment, what I'm most

(04:10):
interested there is how doleaders. So what I'm wondering
if I'm going to call this I'llsay to you, now your audience is
like, leading with honor. Andwhat I mean by that is how do
like a lot of leaders seem tofight and they come to a point
where they feel like to get tothe next level of success,
whatever that is for them, theyhave to compromise their values,

(04:31):
they have to be like everyoneelse is being or, you know, play
the game. And what I getinterested in is how can we get
to the next level without havingto compromise our values, it's
kind of staying true to true towho we are. And then the last
part, which is the part wheresharing my process and comes up
most is I am really passionateabout the world of coaching and

(04:52):
what the craft of coaching hasto offer the world. I think
coaching for those who don'tknow is a form of one on one
support, really, it's aboutcreating the conditions for
people to do their absolute bestthinking, be at their most
creative. And I feel like that'smostly, that's what leaders of
the future and people of thefuture really need in the

(05:15):
complex of the increasinglycomplex world. And pandemics
only made that more difficult.

Conor McCarthy (05:20):
Tapping into our own inner wisdom is really what
we've got. And coaching reallyhelps people do that. And so
that's why there's a part of mybusiness. In some ways, the most
public facing part or, you know,at the moment, that one that's
been most public facing in thelast couple of years, called the
coach's journey, which is apodcast, but it's also a
community for coaches, and awhole set of resources about the
craft of coaching. And my aimthere is to do my best to help

(05:43):
make sure there are the coachesin the world, that the people of
the world, the leaders of theworld, perhaps in particular
need. And that's some kind of myattempt to some kind of, in some
way, encapsulate what I doNo, that is brilliant. I wish I
could encapsulate the thingsthat I do so well, you, you do
have a great sense of howeverything fits together. I'm
guessing you didn't have that atthe very start that that's

(06:06):
something you've built overtime.

Robbie Swale (06:09):
Yeah. And also, like, I should say that the way
thinking about that start tonow, you know, the way I talk
about my work is reallydifferent. I think that, you
know, has been really differentat different times. I think
that's probably the first publicfacing time that I've described
it in that way, just to saythat.

Conor McCarthy (06:24):
Like, we sometimes, you know, we
sometimes hear what people sayand think, oh, wow, like, if
they've been talking about thatwe're like, that's an amazing
way to talk about their work.
But in some ways, I'm testingthat right now. And it is all
true. Yeah, but I'm in theprocess. Now I'm about and I've
been coaching professionally forcoming on six years. And, you
know, I'm really aware that overthe last year or so, how I think

(06:47):
about my work for the next phaseis kind of coalescing, or I hope
it is or I needed to or wantedto, and that is where I've, I've
got to with that, and it doesfeel like it fits neatly with
the things that I do. And it'snice to hear back that. It
sounds like that as well.
Yeah, it sounds very valuesdriven, it sounds, it doesn't
sound like you're you concoctedthis and you're just using it,

(07:11):
it sounds like something you'veput a lot of thought into. And
I'd like as your clients mustfeel like there's a sense of,
Oh, this guy really aligns with,with what he's preaching, you
know, this must instillconfidence in your clients to
hear this. That would certainlybe my, my hope. Yeah, I think
that probably, you know, maybefrom from Seth Godin and his

(07:34):
work, you know, but but fromearly on in the journey, I kind
of realized that,in the long term, the only, the
only thing that was really goingto work that wasn't going to be
exhausting was to kind of bemyself. And to do that as
skillfully as I could, and showup like that. And particularly
in my line of work, but I thinkit's probably true for many,

Robbie Swale (07:57):
kind of many of the businesses that people run,
you know, especially online,especially, you know, today that
doing anything else with wouldget exhausting. In the end,
though, people would see theflaws in it, like the the, if
you concoct something, then inthe end, you're gonna, you're
gonna make a mistake in howyou've concocted that if you're

(08:17):
playing a part. And if you're,but if you're being yourself,
you're never going to make amistake, it's always going to be
coherent, even if it's coherentin how messy it is, which which
it definitely has been at times.
And what I think is interestingabout the way I just described
my work, in some ways is that,it is, although a lot of thought
has gone into it, it hasn't comefrom that thought, a lot of the

(08:38):
times come from, what am Idoing? And you know, therefore,
if if my interest in creativity,and my interest in leadership
and my interest in coaching, areto make sense. Other than them
just being what I'm interestedin? How do they make sense? And
that's in a way, that's wherethat description came from.

Conor McCarthy (08:56):
I love that.
Thanks for going into it a bitmore. I do find it fascinating.
Just there. There are threegreat pillars of of work that
you do. So to go back, we as Isaid, like this is something
you've developed over time. Butback in the early days, six
years ago, five or six yearsago, how was it when you started
out to get your first 10customers as a coach?

Robbie Swale (09:18):
Yeah, maybe. I mean, I wonder if this is when I
kind of learned that thing orwas learning it? as well. You
know, it's kind of alwaysinteresting to reflect back. So
yeah, i'd essentially been aprobably a couple of years into
a career change by this point.
So I do kind of my backgroundwas really mixed in the first
decade or so of my career, buthad I was coming out of

(09:38):
leadership roles in arts andculture in the UK. That's That's
what I'd done. I'd run some,some small arts organizations,
which I think you know, whichdid feed into what I what I'd
done, but I realized that wasn'tfor me and I was looking for
something which which, where Ireally enjoyed the actual work,
and I kind of realized that forme, that was something about

(09:58):
people. And I heard, you know,partly I realized that because
although I was a bit of amediocre line manager at the
time, when I had conversationswith my staff that I managed, we
loved that I loved it, theyloved it. And although I didn't
do it often enough, that's oneof the things that made me
mediocre. We didn't follow up onthose conversations enough. When
I look back at that, I could seethat that was some of the some

(10:20):
of the times that it reallyfired me up. And at some point,
I had the insight Well, what ifI could do that, more of the
time.
And then I dotted around, and Idid, you know, had a few false
starts, you know, for example, Ihad a false start in counseling
and a false start with coaching,actually, then I had a full
start with counseling andpsychotherapy. And then I came

(10:41):
back to coaching and I foundthat training course and some
people that that were really mypeople. And, unfortunately, that
that was a startup, and it's nowresting, so I can't send people
directly to that it was calledthe coaching school in London.
But what happened for me was Ithen found that training and I
wasn't sure that I was going tobecome speech marks a coach that

(11:03):
that was gonna be the work thatI did, but I knew that that
those coaching, those coachingskills that they were teaching
me will be useful wherever Iended up in the future, because
I knew that I was going to wantto be working with people in
some way. So even if I went backinto leading organizations, I
knew those skills will beuseful.
And what was great about themwas that they, they in the first

(11:25):
first weekend of that training,I think it was two or three
days, their aim was set us up.
So that we could go out andstart coaching people is the
best way to learn is by doing.
And I still think that's thecase. And whenever I'm speaking
to coaches now, it's like, well,one of the things you need to do
is make sure you're coaching.
And they, you know, basicallythey sent us off then after that

(11:49):
weekend to do it. And it waslike, you know, I was like I
don't really know how to dothis, but Phil who found that
the coaching school Phil Bolton,I think he sent as a like, a
Word document, with suggestionson how to do this, including
with basically I can't rememberif it was an email template that
he gave us or a Facebookmessage. But the first customers
I came, that came into mybusiness came from that

(12:10):
essentially, I took his languagefrom his thing, I put a post on
Facebook. And, you know,essentially the language, there
was something like, I'm doingthis new thing, I'm doing some
training. So it's like take thepressure off myself a bit, I'm
doing some training. In thisthing called coaching, I'm

(12:31):
looking for some people tobecome practice clients to work
with me for a nominal fee. Andthat putting the nominal fee was
important for me, because I knewI'd never sold my time before.
And I kind of knew from readinga little bit and hearing from
other people who've done similarthings that might be like real
growth area for me, whichabsolutely has been, you know,
the sales process the it's goingto cost x pounds to work with me

(12:54):
for y sessions or months orwhatever. So I started with I
you know, put in that it wasgoing to be a nominal fee from
the start. I didn't say what itwas. I wasn't sec. And, and then
I gave what I thought was somereally vague, I had no idea who
I wanted to work with. So I had,so it was what I thought was
really vague descriptions inafter that. And Conor, I can

(13:17):
probably dig out a picture ofthis or like I could really dig
out and share it because it'sinteresting.
And what happened was, I gotsome you know, and I really
remember the anxiety of hoveringover the the Post button on
Facebook at this moment. And I'dbeen reading the War of Art. I

(13:38):
think, you know, I had thisweird thing where my brother
gave me for Christmas, I thinkthat year. And if people don't
know, this is a book by Stevenpressfield. amazing book.

Conor McCarthy (13:48):
And my brother gave it to me for Christmas that
year. And I found that I alreadyhad it, but I've never read it.
So it's like, I then had twocopies. I was like, okay, the
University sent me a message. Ibetter read this thing now.

Robbie Swale (13:59):
And one of the things he says is where you feel
the most resistance, that's likethe most important things for
you to do. And I was sat therefeeling like otter can have
anxiety and fear about comingout as a coach, basically. And
luckily, I'd been reading theWar of Art, and I was like,
well, Steven pressfield says,you got to do the things you
really scared of, I better doit. And I press post and I got a

(14:20):
beautiful reaction, you know,and I got the rush of like
adrenaline from having done it.
And then I got a really nicereaction. And actually the
first, I think, three clients,customers that I had in my
business came from that post andthey were people that I they
were people that I knew, like,one was someone I'd been in a

(14:43):
play with. When I was likecommunity and amateur play when
I lived in a different city. Onewas somebody who was the kind of
friend old friend but who Iwasn't seeing regularly and one
was someone who I'd worked withon a project a few years
earlier. And that's where theycame from and then there was
some process that happened afterthat before they became clients.
But, you know, the positioningstarted from that. It started

(15:06):
from vague. And it was somethingabout like, I think there are
three bullet points, maybe it'spretty similar actually, in some
ways, there's kind of threebullet points, but they were
really vague bullet points, itwas like, people, you might want
to make a change in theircareer, because I've been
thinking about that a lot. Andso I thought, maybe that's what
I want to do something else andpeople or, and then a casual, or
people who are just goingthrough a change and think this

(15:27):
might be useful. And yeah,that's where the first three
came from. And that was thefirst vague bit of positioning
that I do.
That's brilliant. Thank you forsharing that. Because I had a
similar thing. I don't know ifI, if I did the widespread
Facebook posts, but putting outthose first tentative messages,

(15:50):
those nerve wracking messages.
Is is part of the coachingcoaches journey, I guess, is
there anything about that firstcontact that you think, really
worked? Like, what was it? Andto your point, like it was, it
was vague. And there were therewere some issues, let's say, put
something in there made thosethree people say, I'm gonna give
this a go. What do you think itwas?

(16:14):
Yeah. I mean, my feelingactually is probably that it
wasn't in the message. And thisis actually might be a really
useful thing for people to hear.

Conor McCarthy (16:26):
There's an extent to which I don't think
the message mattered. I thinkwhat mattered was that it was me
who was posting it. And thereason I say that, is that one
of those people that commentwas, and I remember it, because
it was, like, kind of importantto me in the journey was like,
wow, I'd love to do this withyou. And I heard I don't know, I
don't think she put you in capsor anything. But I, I heard the
the capsule the italics on theword you.

(16:49):
So my suspicion is, you know, itwas like that the important
things were, there was somethingout there. ie they couldn't have
said yes, if I hadn't posted it.
And they, I suspect that none ofthose three would have thought
to look for a coach.
spontaneously, it might be a bitdifferent now, but I think for
those three, it probablywouldn't have been, it's just
like the situations that thatwe're in right now. Yes, a

(17:12):
series of conversations withsomeone who's doing some
training to help people throughperiods of transition or, or, or
leadership challenges orwhatever those like, I want to
have some conversations withsomeone like that. And I can
imagine that Robbie would be agood person to do that with
because I already know him.
Like, this wasn't the firstcontact with these people. The
contact had happened. Like Isaid, I knew them all reasonably

(17:33):
well. Yeah, it will be it wasn'tin their life day to day.
Okay, yeah, that's a really,that's so important. Because all
of the nervous energy goes intothe message. And of course, the
best place to start when you'restarting out is like, Who do I
know just who's in my circle?
And through Facebook, orLinkedIn, or whatever it is?
We're just considering Who? Whodo I know that this would be

(17:55):
just that extra nudge that theywould need? That maybe, you
know, you don't know thatthey're going through something?
And they need some help. But howdo you think the framing of you
know I'm, I'm learning this,this practice? Do you think that
helped as well? Or was it? Wasit just the good timing thing?

Robbie Swale (18:15):
Yeah, I think it probably did. I think, you know,
there's like, gentleness tothat, which is different to,
here's my business, I'm lookingfor clients come in, please pay
me right, which is a reallydifferent feeling. And I also
don't know, like, I imagine, I'mnot sure about those three, but
I imagine that the fact that itwas that it was a nominal fee,

(18:37):
made it easy for them, actually.
And, you know, I don't better tohave had that, like my feeling
about fees early on, is betterto have had the clients and had
them pay you something than tohave not had the clients mostly,
like the experience of workingwith those three, and we could
talk a bit about that, you know,framed how I worked with people
from then on, you know, I reallyhave iterated both the

(19:01):
enrollment process and thestructure of my engagements as
I've gone on through the workthat I've done with different
people. And I took so much I waspaid in so much more than money,
so they paid me to have them payme 180 pounds for six sessions.
So like 30 pounds a session,which is like 35 euros or $40,
or something like that. So it'snot, it's not nothing, but not

(19:24):
far off.

Conor McCarthy (19:32):
Learning that that piece and and having the
experience of them paying me,you know, I think one of them
negotiated even on that. So it'slike, got me down to 25 pounds a
session. And that, but that wasan important part of it.
Why did you opt to chargesomething and not nothing? I
asked because, of course, theobvious thing is like free

(19:52):
coaching sessions.

Robbie Swale (19:53):
Yeah. And I kind of again, essentially it was
because I didn't, I knew that Iwanted to, like learning about
charging was really important.
And having the conversationsabout money was really
important, and need to get usedto that I wanted to do it as
fast as possible, because I knewthat if I was going to do this,
I wanted to learn that as fastas possible. And so I told you,
I can talk about what I then didthe next phase is a bit

(20:18):
interesting. So I had theseconversations with these people.
And the enrollment process Iused was, again, what I'd
learned from Phil Bolton at thecoaching School, which was, you
know, essentially was to have aconversation about, about the
work about what we might focuson over the coaching that we
did. And then, you know, to usethat as the sale, so really, it
was like, create the set ofobjectives that we will work on

(20:40):
over, let's say, three months ofcoaching together.
And it actually went reallywell. Like it was miraculous, I
couldn't believe it. Like Ididn't really know what to say,
Well, the first time the firstone, the first person said yes,
you know, it's like that's onething to prepare yourself for.
It's like, what will you say ifsomeone says yes? And what will
you say if someone says no, andjust have that in mind, because

(21:01):
I didn't really know. And I hadkind of practice what I was
going to say a little bit beforethose conversations. But those
first three, it may have beeneven that the first five all
said yes. Which was then areally strange thing. And part
of it was probably that I wascharging, not very much money.

(21:22):
And then I had a series of no's.
And that made me really thinkabout how I, how I charged and
what I did in my enrollmentProbably before I get to that
point is worth saying the otherprocess.
thing about charging from thestart is you get used to working
with people where they have skinin the game. So it's like, at

(21:44):
the time I was working full timealongside this. I think it was a
really smart I didn't know thisat the time, but it's really
smart thing to charge somemoney, because it just made it
that bit more likely, this iswhat charging money to people
does, it made it that bit morelikely that they show up, it
made it that bit more likelythat they take it seriously and
made it that bit less likelythat they disappear off the face

(22:06):
of the earth. Although one ofthem only took up for five or
six sessions that he'd bought.
You know, that's that'sinteresting, too. But getting
used, if you're going to chargesomeone money for something. For
me, it was really important toget used to charging someone for
money and experiencing that.

Conor McCarthy (22:23):
Would you say now you're comfortable with
talking about money withclients? or?

Robbie Swale (22:27):
Yeah, I am. And and that has been a process and
my rates rising has been anincremental process and playing
with that I'm still playing withthat, like I said, I'm thinking
a little bit about how my worklooks from a public facing point
of view at the moment. Forinstance, if people go to my
personal website, Robbie Swalecoaching.com, they won't find

(22:48):
those three things that Idescribed at the start of the
call described in that way.
Yeah, I am thinking about allthat. And as part of that, I am
thinking again, about how Ispeak to potential clients and
how I charge for my work andwhere that sweet spot is, and
all that kind of thing. Butyeah, it's absolutely been a
journey where I am now pretty,you know, pretty comfortable in

(23:09):
basically all situations talkingabout money and coaching.

Conor McCarthy (23:15):
Yeah, I think being able to talk confidently
and easily about money is notonly good for yourself. And I
think there's a lot of work toget to that point, as you've
alluded to. But it also helpsbecause I often find when I'm
talking to my clients about howthey sell their services, if
being able to share some ways tothink about pricing, or ways to

(23:36):
help their clients understandvalue, which of course is
different from price. It feelslike one of those life skills,
getting comfortable with money,I think whenever I be students
in workshops, I teach thisstuff, everyone is so nervous to
talk about money. And usuallythe default is I'll just charge
cheap. I'll go down down scale.

Robbie Swale (24:00):
Yeah, and there are lots of reasons why that
might be sensible. But I youknow, there are also lots of why
it might not be and one of themis, you know, like, what I
remember one of the key momentsin pricing for me was kind of
flipping it, you know, in fact,it was always a part of that.
It's like, how, how do I want mywork to look like how many

(24:21):
people do I want to work with?
or How many times do I want tohave to get someone to get to
the point with someone wherethey say yes, in a year. And you
know, actually, one of thereasons I started there were a
few reasons why the length of myengagements got longer. Partly
it was the complexity of thechallenges of the people I was
working with or loving workingwith. Partly, it was noticing
that sometimes the shortengagements didn't have the
sustained change for people likethat. I wasn't with like, we

(24:43):
weren't doing the work longenough for them to embed the
change they had. But part of itwas well, you know, if I'm
selling coaching to people, sixsessions at a time, I can't
remember I don't know what thesums would be, but I'm gonna
have to sell it 30 times a year.
Sp to have the client, thesolid practice. Whereas if I'm

(25:03):
selling coaching to people 12months at a time, I'm going to
have to sell it five times ayear. And that's a really
different thing. And it makesthe whole process feel really
different. Now, there areupsides and downsides to that.
But that was a frame that reallyhelped me. And it helped me also
realize when I, when I didn'tneed to raise my fees anymore.

(25:25):
Because you know, at first, youkind of know, I knew, if I was
charging 30 pounds per session,I was gonna have to raise my
fees, they were gonna have tokeep going up to make it a
sustainable business. But but italso helped, you know, I got to
a point where I was like, Oh,actually, I don't need to think
about raising my fees anymore.
Because if I sell five 12months, engagements a year, at
these fees, plus I'm doingbecause I do have other work
that I do for other companiesand training facilitation work.

(25:45):
If that all that's, that'sperfect. For me, that's all the
money I need. You know, soactually, I can now chill out
about it, which is also a niceplace to be.

Conor McCarthy (25:55):
That's so true, that's a really good point, go
go right to the end, and do someback back of the napkin. That is
an important step.

Robbie Swale (26:03):
And that is really important step by step, it was
so useful for me. And I thinkthat people, one of the things
is people get kind of frightenedof money, so much so that they
avoid doing the thinking.
Whereas actually will usuallywhen you do I what my experience
personally was, when I did thethinking about money, the back
of the envelope stuff, thingsget less stressful. And this is
true about money. In my personallife, it's true about my
coaching practice, it's like, ifI work out, if I'm stressed

(26:24):
about money, I wanted this greatinsight that what drained me of
energy was not being stressedabout money, it was being
stressed about money and doingnothing about it. And so
actually, you know, then thatwas the insight, which helped me
get my personal finances muchmore in order, and my and my
business ones. But you know, forexample, I think I really
recommend, which again, came outof my, as part of my coach

(26:46):
training, I got some coachingfrom a professional coach, and
we ran an exercise together,essentially mapping out the next
you could use for any number ofyears. But you know, you think
about an end game, a reasonableend game in the next five years,
say, but I think mine was twoyears. It's like, How much money
do I want to be making? But I'mincluding money, you know, and
it's how much money do I want tobe making from coaching in two

(27:06):
years time, and then work backon that, you know, draw it out
on a big bit of paper? So if,okay, if this is where I am in,
in two years, and I'm workingwith this number of clients, and
this many people and this muchmoney is coming in? Where do I
need to be in one year? Andwhere do I need to be in six
months? And where do I need tobe in in like 15 or 18 months.
And actually, when I drew thatout, I really remember this.

(27:28):
It's like, Oh, that's cool.
Again, I can chill out aboutwhere I am right now. Because I
am where I need to be. And aslong as in, you know, 12 months
from from now from so six monthsin, I can chill out because I
only need to get to hear by 12months from now and actually
having the figures there. Ithink mine was like, I'd love to
be making 20,000 pounds fromcoaching in two years time. And

(27:51):
so if I work back from that,okay, well that I need to be
there and there and there andthere and there and all that
again, yeah. helped me thinkabout not only how I was going
to price my coaching over thenext two years, but also mostly
it helped me relax. And rememberthat this is not this is a long
game, I don't have to geteverything done in the next 10
minutes.

Conor McCarthy (28:09):
So interesting, what it's it's not the first
place that a lot of people wouldstart with that with the
numbers, even though it's in theback of everyone's head, it's a
kind of constant worry, if forthe most part, it's like, Am I
charging enough for how am Igoing to make this work, etc.
But well, you've describedthere, you know, of figuring out
the end goal and workingbackwards, and then realizing,

(28:31):
oh, to make this amount of moneydoing this type of coaching At
this rate, then I need X amountof people. And then that
influences your marketing andsales. Because if you only need
five people a year, you'd befive sales that totally changes
how you go, go and sell yourselfand go and market yourself in
the world.

Robbie Swale (28:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. And, and the pricepoint you choose different
points again, it's like youknow, when you've got the number
there, it's great because youcan say okay, well 20,000 pounds
is is for people paying me 5000pounds, or 20 people paying me
1000 pounds. And if I wascharging 1000 pounds, what would
I offer and if I was charging5000 pounds, what my offer and I
don't think I did that thinkingat that point. But that's

(29:09):
certainly the kind of thinkingthat I've done as time has gone
on.
I hope you're enjoying thisepisode, and that there's some
actionable and insightful advicethat you can take out to your
business, helping you identifyand create those first 10
customers is what I do. So ifyou like what you hear on this
podcast and want moreinformation, including a bunch

(29:30):
of free resources on how to findyour first 10 customers and grow
your business, check out first10 podcast.com that's 10 one
zero, or find me on Twitter atthe first 10 pod.

Conor McCarthy (29:42):
Now, you probably hear what I'm about to
say on every podcast you listento, and it makes a really big
difference to the show. If youfind this podcast in any way
useful or enjoyable. I'd be sograteful if you left me a review
on iTunes. It really does make abig difference in terms of other
people discovering the podcastalso If you leave a review, you
will get to see your name on thereview in lights. What I'll do

(30:05):
is I'll design your words andpost them online. Tagging you on
your project along with it. Iknow, it's a pretty sweet deal.
Okay, let's get on with theshow.
So after the first three, whatwere the next few? Like? Can you
remember?

Robbie Swale (30:20):
Yeah, so the next two were referrals. So I don't
know if they came from thatmessage. Now, one was from
someone on my coach training. Soit was like her, then boyfriend,
I think, one was one was a workcolleague of my wife's, and, you

(30:41):
know, starting to flex, I didsomething I did a slightly
different engagement with her,although I think the price point
was the same because I wasstarting to get this sense. You
know, I wanted to sell her thecoaching. And I realized that
the thing I was thinking I wasgoing to sell her wasn't it. And
that was a kind of clunkyconversation that I'm much
better at having now. But whenyou realize that she does want
coaching, I do want to do thatcoaching with her. But this six

(31:02):
session engagement, it's alsothe first three people is really
not what she needs. It was Iremember it being a clunky
conversation. But I think wejust did two sessions together.
And that was interesting, right?
Because, again, a bit like soboth the positioning and the
ways of working, I kind ofencourage people to experiment
early on, because I had no ideawho I wanted to work with
really, or how I wanted to workand how could I hadn't done any

(31:22):
work with anyone. And the waythat I learned that over time.
And the way that I got tospeaking about my work a bit
like I did at the start thiscall or like I might do right
now is by by playing with thingsas we went on. So I had those
two and then I had is definitelyworth saying I then had this
series of no's, including like,one I just remember being like,

(31:45):
I had one when someone said yes.
So I had a series of no'salready. Then I finally had
someone say yes. And then no.
And that was like their housethat has been probably the
moment that one of the moments Iremember most clearly from the
journey is sitting on the sofabasically going hot and cold,
like absolutely heartbrokenabout it, it's just like, well,
this is never gonna work. Youknow, it's those kind of that

(32:07):
kind of catastrophizing thatthat most of us are prone to do
sometimes.
And I could talk about that abit. But a kind of key moment in
this process, which isdefinitely worth talking about
for me was I went on a kind ofan online coaching summit with

(32:29):
an organization called coachesrising. And as part of that
there was a woman called CarolynFreya Jones, who, who ran a
session, I can't remember thetitle of the session. But I, I
asked her a question on thatcall, which, which was like,
this is what happened. I'vejust, I just got in the office
building that I worked in, I'vegot them to send out to
everyone. A version of myFacebook post, so it was cool,

(32:52):
right? It was like, I could onlydo this once, right? But but it
was a great opportunity. Anddoing this training and looking
for practice clients nominalfee, same sort of message and I
got some interest. I think I gotthree or four, maybe even five,
like prospects from that. Noneof whom became clients. And I
was basically in this space withthis woman. And I asked her that

(33:14):
question. I was like this hashappened, what can you tell me
about how I can make sure thatdoesn't happen again? And she
just she refused the premise ofmy question, which was great,
and gave me a much betteranswer, which is she essentially
suggested a way, because whatwas happening for me is I've
only got this one shot withthese people and this mailing
list like I don't want to messmess it up. Yeah. And she saw

(33:35):
that basically, and gave meanother thing with which is
instead of doing that, like,what if there isn't just one
shot? And what if you just reachout to people and do something
completely different. And shebasically dictated an email to
me, which I then went back tothe recording of took down. And
that became the process throughwhich the next couple of clients

(33:57):
came. And that that that processwas something like that email
was something like, you know, Igot this advice from another
coach. anyone listening can canuse this right? It's from
Carolyn, to me to you. And youcan see that I gave the advice
on this podcast that you listento just sit and think about who
are the people that I've beenmost inspired to do some

(34:19):
coaching with. And I thought ofyou and then you tell them why
you thought of them and why theythey inspire you and why you
were inspired to do that. And sowhat I'd like to do, this is
still the email, what I like todo is offer you a coaching
session as a gift from me.
There's no pressure for it tobecome a fuse to become a
client. That's not what this isabout. I just felt inspired to
reach out to you. This issomething I can offer right now

(34:42):
and please know, it's totallyokay, If you say no.
Then the beautiful thing aboutthat is you can do that as many
times as you want forever. Now,I haven't done it that much
recently, but I do do itoccasionally when I get really
caught by someone. When thefirst person said yes, through
that process, that felt entirelydifferent to me, because

(35:06):
suddenly that's then somethingthat is repeatable, that it
suddenly felt then like,creating my business is within
my control. Whereas before, andI think this is what Carolyn
Frazier spotted in thatquestion. It's like, I've got
this one shot at sending outthese emails to people. If I
don't do it, my business isstuffed.

(35:28):
So it's really then again, it'sa bit like, when you've got the
long game in mind, you can, thepressure is off. So a bit like
the pressure is off for me interms of raising my prices. I'm
interested in the pressure beingoff in my sales conversations.
Yeah. So it's like, it's thepressure is really on, because
I've only got these four people.
And if I, if they don't say yes,to me, I don't know where my
next client is coming from. It'sreally hard to sell something to

(35:49):
somebody or is for me.
Whereas if I know that I cansend emails to people that the
pressure is totally off on thisconversation. But I know and
this is what happened with oneof those first people I sent
that email to, she actuallysaid, I don't, I'm not sure I
want to have a coachingconversation yet. But can we
have a coffee and then we hadthe coffee? And then I wish she
was like, actually, yeah, Ithink that coaching session

(36:11):
would be great. And then we didthat. And then miraculously, now
this is really tough, becauseyou've got to go into that
exchange, really got to go innot trying to create a client
from trying. Yeah, if you sayone thing, like, oh, there's no
pressure to become a client. Butactually, what you want is them
to become a client, it won'twork. If you're really there.

(36:33):
And with integrity, saying, youdon't, we don't have to become a
client here, I just want tocoach you, then that's
beautiful. And sometimes itmight lead to some work. But if
it doesn't lead to work, itleads to loads of really useful
stuff. And the early stage, Iknew all this was worth it. So
it leads to experience. Not onlythat, but particularly to

(36:55):
experience coaching people thatinspire you. And that's such a
useful piece of experience. Orit leads to people I also did
another one who didn't become aclient with someone who I
thought would inspire me, and itwas one of the most boring
coaching sessions I'd ever done.
And that's really useful,because then I know that that's
not the kind of person that Iwant to do more coaching with.

Conor McCarthy (37:16):
But it also, so patient experience, it also pays
in potential for referrals. Andwe're early on building up that
base of people who might referpeople to you, that's an
incredibly valuable thing to do.
So another invitation that KarenFrey Jones in that call gave to
somebody else, I think was, itwas gifting coaching, or any

(37:37):
service that you have, you cando this with people who knows
and trust you already and mightmake referrals who have got
great networks, because the bestway for them to make a referral
is to have actually experiencedwhat you do, they can make a
really different referral atthat point, to just kind of the
sense of what you do. And so asmart technique is you can just

(37:59):
ask the people who you know,have got great networks for
referrals, people who reallytrust you really believe in you.
But a really smart idea. Andagain, an entirely repeatable
thing you can do forever, is sitdown, think about the five
people who know you and trustyou, like at least to some
extent, and have amazingnetworks of people you'd like to

(38:19):
be connected with. And give theman experience of your work with
the specific and explicit aim.
And tell them this up front,that they might then refer other
people to you. You want to makethat real for people, because
it's what I think is weird isthat I sometimes get asked, Is
it okay if I refer someone toyou? And I'm like, Well, yes,

(38:43):
that's really the only way mybusiness ever works. So please
do but people somehow don't knowthat. And, and so explicitly
telling the people that you wantto people to refer the people
you want to refer people to you,yeah. That you want referrals is
one level and another level isgifting those those sessions to
people.
Wow. Everything you said in thatlast little bit is full of

(39:07):
really useful information. Andthere's one or two things that
stood out to me where you know,funnily enough, honesty is the
best policy by by going topeople and say, you know, I'm
building a coaching practice, nostring session, you're someone
who inspires me, I would love mygoal is to coach people like
you. But right now, it's stillbuilding towards that. There's
something really beautiful aboutthat simplicity. And as I said,

(39:30):
the honesty because they'regoing into it going, there's
going to be it's going to makean ask, and there's going to be
money. Again, money conversationis going to be weird. You're
just kind of going No, this isthis is this is exactly what's
going to happen. So almost Don'tbe afraid. I really only
appreciate that. That approach.

Robbie Swale (39:48):
Yeah, and I think it's really important. And, you
know, actually becauseespecially in the work that I
do, you know that the kind ofcoaching that I do, it works
better when people trust you.

Conor McCarthy (40:02):
If people don't trust you, and it's because of
the way the world is, at themoment, like, well, the way that
especially the way the world hasbeen, I think, hopefully people
like us are beginning to changeit. You know, sales as we expect
to be hoodwinked, we expectsomeone at the end of the call
to try and sell something oftenin a kind of clumsy, slightly
oppressive way. Yeah, and so to,to hold that that isn't going to

(40:25):
happen. And I would, you know,in those sessions, and start
those calls, really remindpeople of why you're here,
explain what's going on.
Explain, remind them that like,Don't worry, I'm not going to, I
sometimes say, Don't worry, I'mnot going to try and like
hoodwink you with the sale. Atthe end, I'd like to say that up
front, so that you know that sothat you can relax.

Robbie Swale (40:44):
That sense of honesty is really important, it
helps people relax. And I thinkit does make it more likely that
people then want want the thingthat you're selling them,
because they know it's theirchoice. They know they're not
like I don't know, you're likebut if I get a call from like a
cold call person, and they'reput, they're doing the hard sell
the sales techniques, stuff, I'mat the end, I get more likely at
that point, to say I need timeto think because I really don't

(41:07):
want to be rushed into buyingsomething I don't want to buy.
Whereas if they're not doingthat at all, I'm free to be
curious. Which is, which isreally important. And the other
thing about honesty, I think thething to say is like, and this
is in both those both thoseinvitation frames, the ones
people who inspire you and theones for referrals from people
that you that, you know, it'slike plant seeds for the long

(41:29):
term. And honesty is a way toplant seeds for the long term.
Because you want I realized thatI wanted to leave every, so what
I didn't like about the kind ofsales conversation, that wasn't
a gift of a coaching session.
And what I should say about mysales process is it became that
a gift of a coaching session wasthe start of my sales process,

(41:50):
always.
Coaching someone planted a seedfor a referral or for future
work, because they really knowwhat working with me is like a
sales conversation without acoaching session didn't do that
in the same way. So like, inthat early phase, it's really
helpful to think, really longterm, but if not really long

(42:11):
term, then then 2, 3, 4 yearsout, because then each
interaction looks different. Andwhat I realized is, not only was
it good for me to coach as manypeople as possible at the start,
because it just helps thatreferral ecosystem start. But
the honesty throughout that isreally important. Because every
time and there have been somethere are some relationships
that are that have broken,because for me because of badly

(42:34):
handled conversations that couldhave led on to referrals, and
now won't because I wasn'tskillful, because I was
learning. And but but overall,you want that honesty and
integrity to be present. Becauseyou won't be planting seeds so
that every relationship andinteraction you have could lead
to clients at some point andbusiness at some point in some

(42:54):
way, even if it doesn't now. Andthat's kind of the structure of
which that that principle hasreally helped me to think about
how to structure my enrollmentprocess how to structure my
engagements, because if what Iwant is to always be planting
seeds for future work, that'sreally different to what I want
is to get some work right now.

Conor McCarthy (43:13):
So well said I love that Yeah, having having a
system and not putting aninordinate amount of pressure on
the next call the next email thenext interaction, just kind of
say, No, I'm in this for thelong haul. So what can I do now
to get the analogy of plantingseeds is brilliant. And that's,
I think you're you're very goodat that is to get really

(43:34):
technical on it. Do you have away of kind of managing your
relationships? Do you kind oftrack? Or do you keep everyone
in some kind of a database? Orhow do you you've got a lot of
people in your universe?

Robbie Swale (43:46):
Yeah, I mean, nothing kind of as systematic
as, as I might have, I guess I'maware in this moment is us that
I'm like, Oh, yeah, I kind ofcould. Now, part of the reason
for that is that I haven'tprioritized it.

(44:06):
So what I do, the things that Ido, I do have a log of everyone
that I've ever coached. Andthat's why I was able to look
back, it's fun actually knowingI was coming on the show, to go
back and look at those first 10people and be like, Who were
those people and, you know, sothere are some things that I do
that. So I quite often sixmonths after I've worked with
someone, gift them a coachingsession.

(44:30):
I actually learned it from afriend of mine who got it who
came up with it because she waslike, frustrated that she didn't
know what was happening to herclients. And she was worried
that they had that thingsweren't going well for them. And
so she was just like, well, Ican just include this in my
offer. I can just I can onlyalways because it's really nice
for me is helpful. It'sdefinitely helpful for them.
Imagine as a, as a client, youget that as part of your, your

(44:52):
package like that's really nice.
Now I don't necessarily includeit in my package, but I almost
always reach out to six monthsand 12 months after working with
somebody to say, I often do thisfor clients, I thought of you,
and would you like to do this?
So that maintains thoserelationships. I do have a kind
of system that when I finishedworking with someone, I
explicitly asked for referralsat that point.

(45:17):
I have in relationship to thoseinvitations that I learned from
Carolyn Freya Jones, I have gotgood at and braver through
Steven pressfield, as well, youknow, that kind of thinking at
reconnecting with people. Youknow, when I think of someone
that I once coached, whetherthey were a client or not
someone who's in that ecosystem,if I think of them, I can just

(45:41):
write to them and tell them, Iwas thinking of them. And
usually, there's a reason forthat. It's, you know, it's, I'm
trying to think of an example,but it's like, you know, I was
reading this book just now. Andit reminded me of that
conversation we had last year.
Here's the book, if you'reinterested in a link, you know,
occasionally I'll send someone abook, you know, if I, if I'm
just if it's a client or aformer client, and I'm just
reading something, I'm like, youknow what, you know, Alexa would

(46:01):
love this book. And if I can, orsometimes ask for their address,
I'll be like, here's, here's thething. And trust that that
generosity is, is valuable. Andagain, you get into people's
consciousness again. And it'sactually remarkable sometimes,
how people will be like, do youknow, I was just thinking about
you the other day. And that mayjust be like, confirmation bias

(46:24):
that you I only remember thetimes when that happens, but
sometimes it happens.
So, rather than a system,although I do have some
systemized bits, like theasking, always asking for
referrals, usually offering afollow up session. Really, I've
got a mindset of always beconnecting with people. And that

(46:48):
doesn't just mean that doesn'tmean like adding them on
LinkedIn is like something morethan that. Can I offer something
to someone? Can I connect twopeople to each other? That kind
of thing? And that's really my,my customer relationship
management system? As far asI've got it.
Exactly. Yeah. I love that.
Yeah. Always, always be goinginto it thinking holding the
relationship to a high standard,I think is that's that's a smart

(47:10):
way to go about things. When,when you when you think about
the craft of coaching, outsideof actually having coaching
conversations, which is whereyou constantly learn, are there
any other ways that you developthat craft?
Yeah, I mean, there are, thereare multiple ways of doing that.

(47:31):
There are many coach trainingorganizations out there. My
favorite, if people are lookingfor it is coaches rising, who I
who I mentioned before, theirprograms tend to be affordable
compared to some of the thingsthat are out there, and they
have a podcast, you can listento, they, for me, they're at the
cutting edge of coaching, whichnot not every coaching

(47:52):
organization is and not everyoneshould be right. But you know,
we need people to be working onthe fundamentals. But I'm
interested in the cutting edgeof things. And so their their
stuff lands really well, for me,receiving coaching, from really
the quickest, fastest way tolearn what you need to know
about running a coachingbusiness, from everything from

(48:13):
how you might want to run yoursales or might not want to run
your sales to, to what it's liketo be a client so that you can
support people in their, intheir
when you're working with them.
And you know that I wrote anarticle once trying to pull that
all together, like why is like,I know that that is the most
useful thing that I've done todevelop my craft and my
business. And I tried, you know,again, I can send you a link for

(48:36):
I tried to pull together all thereasons for that. It's a bit
weird, because it's a bituncomfortable to write that
article because it sounds like Imight be saying, Carmen, let me
coach you I just desperatelywant you as a client, which
isn't the case. But it's just areally important thing. I'd had
a conversation with some newcoaches. And I'd realized they
were asking all these questionswhich would have been answered
if any of them had ever hiredtheir own coach, because they

(48:57):
would have just learned likewhat it's like to be on the
other side of those enrollmentconversations. And I've learned
exactly what I love to do andwhat I will never do from
conversations I've had aboutpeople who with people who might
become my coach.
I'm also a big fan of groupcoaching as a way to learn about

(49:19):
coaching because when you're ina group, especially a group of
coaches, it's why that's that'sthe place I mostly send coaches
who want to work with me is tomy community because you get to
learn, you get to be coached,you get to watch other people
being coached as well. Andthere's just so much learning in
in there too. What was yourexperience of of setting up a
group coaching program likegetting those first 10 coaches,

(49:42):
coaches to be into that?
So I've run a few differentgroup coaching programs with
varying levels of success. Andthe first time I did it, it was
hard work. But I essentially didit the same way that I create
clients the other times, so Iinvited loads of coaches into

(50:06):
free group coaching sessions. Isent her like, I can remember I
remember one week I sent out 40invitations. It's like it's a,
it's a good growth practice kindof hard work getting, you know,
from that, I don't know, 25 no'sin the space of, you know, or no
answers in the space of a weekthat's like, Oh, it's a bit much
to go through. But But and, andthen essentially went through my

(50:30):
normal went through thesalesperson I had at the time.
So give gift them an experienceof group coaching with me, Why
else would they buy groupcoaching with me except through
knowing that, then have a longerconversation with them one on
one, and then some of thembecome members. And that worked.
Okay. The first year, I had twomembers in that group coaching
program, this is when I ran akind of six month group coaching
program. Second time, I hadfour. And the third time I had

(50:54):
three and at that point, partlybecause as I was just saying
before, we jumped on. And so I'mnot running that program this
year. And partly that wasbecause I realized that because
we were having a baby. And Irealized that I didn't want to
have to have the energy to sendlots and lots of invitations to
manage that kind ofadministrative process of
getting people in a row. So Iflipped the way that I work that

(51:19):
and launched what is called thecoach's journey community. So
there are a couple of othergroup programs that I've played
in different ways with, whicharen't for coaches, with
different levels of success thatI could talk about. But the
coaches journey community is areally different way of working.
So it's essentially asubscription model, I run
through Patreon, which meansthat people can join and leave

(51:39):
whenever they want. There's itand when I'm thinking of new
ways to work, I'm always Irealized this when I was
creating this community, I'malways trying to solve multiple
problems at once. What I wantreally is, is a new way of
working, which solves a fewproblems in my business. So I
had a problem, I'm going to betired because we're having a new
baby. Therefore, I can't run thegroup coaching program, what's

(52:01):
the thing I could run, whichstill allows me to do this work
with coaches that I that I lovedoing? But which won't take all
that energy? Also, I'm I'mwondering about is, are there
some people for whom a six monthintensive group coaching program
is not the right thing? So can Icreate something where people
can just drop in and drop outwhatever is right for them? And

(52:22):
also, in the back of my mind, Iknow that some coaches are
struggling with their moneyconversations with their
business, can I create somethingthat at one level, at least it's
really affordable, and so thatthe coaches journey community is
my attempt to do that. And bythis point, actually, the
enrollment was relativelystraightforward, because I had,
it's a really differentstructure. But I have, I have a

(52:44):
podcast for coaches. Mycommunity of coaches in my
network has grown over the yearsof me being interested in the
craft and talking about itsometimes. And so actually, that
was then it became a relative.
And I had a set of formerclients who could join this,
this community. And so thatbecame a relatively painless
process, except I procrastinatedon it for about six months

(53:05):
before, before it launched.
Yeah, of course, of course, youare human after all. Okay,
that's really Yeah, that'sgreat. I love how you kind of,
again, you you planted so manyseeds over the years that when
it came to launch this newpandemic style community, you
were able to quickly pulltogether people who knew you and

(53:26):
trusted you and and build fromthere, I think that's, that's a
really smart use of your time.
And they get a lot of value fromthe group coaching.
Yeah, and it's part of theother, just we haven't really
talks about it. But the otherside of my business model, which
isn't really what I've been,it's like I haven't set out to
do this particularly, but I haveover the last five or six years
created a body of work. And abody of work is another way to

(53:50):
create business. And that's morewhat happened with the Coaches
journey community, as a body ofwork that I've made out there.
For coaches, I have other bodiesof work as well. Although in
some ways, because that's thebest define, I think it's the
most successful and that's whatI'm gonna be working on probably
in the next phase of my businesswith that new definition, right
is I need to curate and create,and make really explicit the
bodies of work about leadershipand creativity.

Conor McCarthy (54:13):
I had that body of work, so people already knew
me. So then when the offer came,and it's like, I could join this
thing for 10 pounds a month.
They know me, even if theyhaven't worked with me already.
They know me through thepodcast, or through the articles
or through the videos orwhatever it is. And they can
just say yes to that with trust.

(54:34):
Whereas in the enrollmentprocess, if you think about what
I was talking about before,where you givft the coaching,
you have maybe have a coffeelike that client, right, that
early client have a gift tooffer a coaching conversation.
She says no, let's have acoffee. We have the coffee, you
know, we already knew each otherbut we're connecting deeper in
different way. We have thecoaching session. By the end of
that she really trusts me andpaying a few 100 pounds for some
coaching is it's just like areally sensible thing for her to

(54:56):
do.

Robbie Swale (54:57):
In a way the body of work shortcuts some of that
because as does a referral,because it allows these people
to say, Yes, I totally trustthat this will be and some of
them come in at the 10 poundmembership, and some of them
come straight in at the 100pound membership. And what's
what I think's interesting issome people I didn't know have

(55:18):
come in at that, at that level.
So you know, it's not like Ithought, what would happen is
that people I didn't know wouldcome in at the bottom, and they
creep you their way. Butactually, for some people, they
know me enough from, from thethings that I've created in the
world that they just know I'm infor this. That body of work, is
not to be it's not necessary,especially in coaching, like,

(55:39):
you can absolutely create acoaching business without a
website without any body ofwork. And then people who tell
you otherwise lying. There's anamazing coaches out there who,
well, their website is like, youknow, email me here. Yeah. And
it's like, I've had a few peopleon my podcast, who it's that and
that's great, you couldabsolutely do that. And, you
know, everyone should alwaysremember that. And it can be a

(56:00):
cool thing to do to create abody of work, because that takes
some of the pressure off lateron, and enables you to just, you
know, which is what happens inlots of other industries, right?
I'm sure you've had lots ofother guests like that, you
know, where you build the youbuild the community, or the
mailing list, or whatever it is,and then you create something
for them. And then some peoplewill buy that, because they

(56:21):
already know.

Conor McCarthy (56:23):
I love that. I just realized the time and I've
taken so much of your time,maybe as a last question, it's
something I ask all my guestswhat, what is the main piece of
advice you would give to someonewho's just starting out to find
their first 10 customers?

Robbie Swale (56:39):
Hmm, in my industry, or in any industry? in
your industry?

Conor McCarthy (56:43):
Yeah.

Robbie Swale (56:49):
I mean, there's so many Conor that it could be. But
I think it's, it's probably justcoach, right? It's like, coach,
a lot of people. It's not quitethat. So it's like, it's maybe
to coach. And then it's, it'slike, know how you're going to
talk about your work. So one ofthe things I learned from a

(57:13):
coach that I thought I wastalking to you about him
becoming my coach.
And I don't know if he didn'tthink that or it's like a blind
date, where he like, turn, youturn up and they see you and
they leave. But we had this longcoffee for like 90 minutes. And
he had no point I thought I'vebeen really explicit contacting
him. No point in that, that hetalked to me, or referenced that
we might work together. And Ijust decided I would never I

(57:35):
made sure I would never do thatagain to anyone, because it was
just a weird thing. And it's badfor business. Yeah. So it's just
like, always, always have theway for people to work with you.
So it's like, in fact, even insome of those invitations that I
talked about, you could youcould be honest, right at the
start of the one where you saidyou it's not about sales, you,

(57:57):
if you if you want to you cancaveat that at the start by
saying that this is not aboutsales, I'm not trying to create,
you know, make you work with me,but I do have a deal with
myself, where if I spend timewith someone who I know, or I
really, really fully 100%believe I can help. I'll tell
them that. So you know, that'snot why we're here. But I'm, you
know, I want to warn you that soit doesn't feel weird when if I

(58:18):
do it later on, you can evencreate the conditions to do
that. So it's like, coach, andcoach a lot of people because
that's how you'll learneverything about how to describe
your work about how you want towork, all that kind of thing.
Better to have some clientspaying you 30 quid to go than to
have no clients and make itpossible for people to work with

(58:39):
you. Give them the chance to sayyes. And you know, if we had
another hour, we could talkabout how that might, you know,
how that might, how we might dothat. But I think that in some
way, having that having thatthought in mind is is really
important.

Conor McCarthy (58:53):
Brilliant. Thank you so much. There's so much of
that as a great place to wrap upthis episode. Yeah, there are so
many of the things we could talkabout, because in just six
years, I think you've gained somuch experience, experienced by
doing and again, generous asalways, you're sharing all the
bits and bobs that are that willreally help people write their

(59:16):
kind of go into how do I dothis? Or what do I? What do I do
next? So thank you on behalf ofmy listeners and me. And yeah,
I'll include, if there'sanything else you'd like to say
now, I'd love to include on yourcontact details in the show
notes. And I highly, highlyencourage everyone to go check
out your website Robbie SwaleCoaching.com so all your details
there.

Robbie Swale (59:37):
But yeah, is there anything else you'd like to add
before we finish up? no issue,my website should be Robbie
Swale.com it's actually RobbieSwale coaching.com although
maybe I need to buy Robbie'sSwale.com because really, it
should be that because there'sso much more on there than that.
Yeah, what I'd say is, if you'rea coach listening, do check out
the coaches journey.com as wellas so much resources, resources

(59:57):
there like I and I haveabsolutely loved by doing like
that has absolutely you'reabsolutely right. And I'm really
glad that you can kind of seethat. And, you know, really
That's why I'd encourageeveryone to do. You know, on on
as they start their business,right? Because even if the
business you're starting isn'tthe business you're always gonna
run. If you're learning whileyou're doing it, then you know,

(01:00:19):
no, it's gonna it's likeplanting seeds for you for the
future too.

Conor McCarthy (01:00:22):
Such wisdom.
Thank you Robbie. You're verykind.

Robbie Swale (01:00:26):
Thanks Conor.