May 5, 2022 • 30 mins
This week, joining the podcast is special guest, serial entrepreneur, and the king of shiny objects, Brian Casel. Brian is the founder of Zip Message, a popular video messaging tool for async conversations, which launched at the beginning of 2021. Brian recently sold and exited some of his earlier businesses, including Audience Ops and ProcessKit. Brian firmly believes that with each business opportunity came great learnings and experiences, which he has carried forward to get him to where he is today.
Get ready to dive into an episode filled with fascinating insights and advice as Brian brings us on his journey from freelancing to fearlessly launching and running multiple businesses. In this episode, Brian offers brilliant advice for business start-ups as he openly shares how to talk to your customers, tactics on building an audience, how to master sales calls and how to approach the awkward conversation of pricing. Key points throughout the discussion include:
- The leap from freelancing to building businesses.
- The joy of obtaining your first customer.
- Building an audience through networking.
- Mastering sales: how to get the most out of sales calls.
- Customer observation: learning from customer pain points.
- Curiosity is key: questions to ask your customers.
- Attracting your ideal customer base.
- Increasing brand awareness and speaking directly with potential customers.
- The benefits of asynchronous communication.
- How to discuss pricing with potential clients.
- Assessing and filtering through business ideas.
- Book recommendations for business builders.
- Brian’s advice for obtaining your first 10 customers.
‘’I went through this long list of businesses. I would never have landed on Zip Message if I didn't learn things from Process Kit. I never would have landed on Process Kit if I didn't learn a ton from Audience Ops and Audience Ops came from what I learned from Restaurant Engine. I wouldn't have landed on those ideas unless I had gone through that experience.’’ – Brian Casel.
Connect with Brian Casel:
https://briancasel.com/podcasts
https://www.linkedin.com/in/briancasel/
Connect with First 10 Podcast host Conor McCarthy:
https://www.first10podcast.com
https://twitter.com/TheFirst10Pod
https://www.linkedin.com/in/comccart/
Resources:
Book: The Mom Test by Rob Fitzpatrick.
http://momtestbook.com/
Book: The Cold Start Problem by Andrew Chen.
Podcast partners
Buzzsprout:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/?referrer_id=1389931
Otter:
https://otter.ai/referrals/ETRNKY16
Calendly:
https://calendly.grsm.io/ilev18qxpn1e
Produced in partnership with podlad.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Casel (00:00):
I would never have landed on zip message now if I
didn't learn things from processkit, I never would have landed
on process kit if I didn't learna ton from audience ops audience
apps came from what I learnedfor restaurant engine, I
wouldn't have landed on thoseideas unless I had gone through
that that experience.
Conor McCarthy (00:19):
Hello, and welcome to season four of the
first 10 podcast. I'm your hostConor McCarthy, and I help
people start and grow theirbusinesses. I do that through
joint ventures, collaborations,coaching, and online workshops.
In each episode of this podcast,I interview business builders
about the early days of startinga business, about how they found
their first 10 customers and gotoff the ground, so you can learn
(00:40):
what works and what doesn't.
Check out my websiteConorMcCarthy.me. for more
details. My guest today is BrianCasel. Brian has had a really
fascinating serial entrepreneurjourney. On today's episode, he
fills us in on how he approachedand launched a few of his
businesses. from SaaS to producttype services. Brian currently
runs zip message, which is atool for asynchronous video
conversations with your team andcustomers. And I think it's a
(01:02):
brilliant, brilliant piece ofsoftware. He also hosts his own
podcast called Bootstrapped Web.
Brian shares a ton from hisextensive experience starting
and growing businesses. In thisepisode, for example, we cover
how to grow an audience for yourbusiness, how to talk to your
customers and how to do it well,the best way to handle sales
calls, how to talk aboutpricing, and shiny object
(01:24):
syndrome, and so much more.
Lastly, Brian has a great andkind of contrarian advice on the
topic of focus when buildingyour ideal business. So please
do enjoy this episode with BrianCasel and thank you for
listening.
First of all, Brian, welcome tothe show and thank you very much
for taking the time to be withus here today.
Brian Casel (01:45):
Thanks, Conor.
Conor McCarthy (01:47):
Can you just give us a quick 60 or 90 second
overview about you and yourcurrent business?
Brian Casel (01:51):
Yeah, so my name is Brian Casel, I am the founder of
Zip Message. That's the businessthat I'm now fully focused on.
Mostly because I sold off allthe other businesses that I that
I had going before that justrecently, like in the last five
or six months. But yeah, ZipMessage is a SaaS app for video
(02:13):
messaging, you can also sendscreen and and audio only or
even text messages. And it'sit's for asynchronous messaging,
asynchronous conversations. Soyou know, you might be familiar
with it with tools like likeloom where you can record a
video and send it to someone,it's sort of similar to that,
except the difference is you theother person can easily reply
(02:34):
back to you. So it's reallygreat for communicating with
with like clients or freelancersor people that you might hire,
or, or even podcasters are usingit to get feedback from their
listeners and things like that.
So it's just really easy to hopinto an asynchronous call and a
good way to like replace, youknow, Zoom calls and calendar
bookings and things like that.
(02:58):
Like real quick, I'm sure we'llget into it, but like before
this, my main business for sevenyears was called Audience Ops
and I sold that business in late2021. That was a content
service, like it was aproductised service built around
delivering blog content as aservice, I had a team of writers
and we would basically power theblogs for lots of mostly
(03:22):
software companies. I had acouple of attempts at building
other SaaS products in recentyears and some of them were more
successful than others. One thatthat did okay was called Process
Kit. I grew, I worked on that Ireally learned full stack
development with Ruby on Railswhat while building that and ran
(03:43):
that for about three years and Iended up selling that business
last year, actually, just a fewmonths ago, early 2022 is when I
sold sold that one off, justcouldn't continue growing it and
Zip Message had much moretraction at the time. So yeah,
and you know, going goingfurther back, I had another
business called RestaurantEngine that was like a website
builder for the restaurantindustry bootstrapped and sold
(04:07):
that business in 2015. And waybefore that, I was like a
freelance web designer, webdeveloper. So that's, that's
where I come from.
Conor McCarthy (04:17):
I love it the reverse history. That's
brilliant. Thank you for that.
That's a great overview. Becauseas I said before, like this is
all about serial entrepreneursthis season. So it's people who
have kind of picked up and doneit again and again and again. So
even to go back to I mean, doyou have to go back to your
freelance days if you want, buteven the restaurant engine or
any of the subsequent ones, doyou remember what it was like
(04:39):
getting your first 10 customersin any of those businesses?
Brian Casel (04:43):
Oh, yeah, I mean, every single one. I often really
believe that like the firstcustomer like the first 10
customers, it's like even wait,it's so much more exciting than
like your 100th customer. Ithink that's really true and I
have to sort of remember back,but I, but yeah, I mean, I do
(05:05):
more or less remember, like thewhen when it happened and sort
of who it was and, and how itcame about. So happy to go into
it.
Conor McCarthy (05:14):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, whatever
you're happy to share, even ifit's because I know a lot of
people listening to this, itwill be kind of will be
wondering just how yeah, how dowe get the first one? I mean, 10
would be great. But even thefirst one would be?
Brian Casel (05:26):
Yeah, let's see. I mean, a lot of it had to do with
how my circumstance changed overthe years. So like, in the more
recent businesses, you know,I've grown a small audience for
myself and a network. And sothat's helped a lot in the more
recent businesses, like, like,when I launched Zip Message, I
had just announced it to myemail list, and I have a podcast
(05:49):
and I have, I have Twitter. Andso that's generally where the
first customers came from forthat. Going back to Audience
Ops, the content service, theway that what happened was, I
just sent an a warm email tolike 20 or 25 Friends, so people
in the industry who I have,obviously, they're good friends
(06:10):
with, or maybe I've met them ata conference or something like
that. And, and I think I createdlike a one page, like, very
basic informational page aboutthis new content as a service
idea. And, and I sort of justsent it to them, I was like,
hey, what, how does this look toyou? Do you have any thoughts or
feedback, if you or anyone youmight know, might might know
(06:33):
someone who needs help with blogcontent? You know, I'd love an
introduction. And then out ofthat, I think I got something
like, six or seven phone calls.
And out of that, I landed thefirst three clients, for the for
the audience apps business,
Conor McCarthy (06:47):
do you remember any of the any of the tactics
used or the approach to thosecalls?
Brian Casel (06:52):
I generally with, when it comes to calls like
that, you can think of themlike, I guess I think of them as
like sales calls. But even like,because like for audience ops, I
not only sold the first one butI sold, many of the clients that
ever came on to audience appsonly only at the very near the
(07:13):
end of that business, I actuallyhad a different salesperson
doing that. But I was the persondoing this sales calls most of
the time. And, and I did thosevery first calls and my approach
in general is just to really askmore questions than talk about
it. Like I'm, I'm I come intowith an approach like, I'm
(07:34):
curious, I want to know who youare, what you're trying to do.
And I want to I want to know,like, really what your goals
are. But also, I think thebiggest question that I want to
ask is like, why are you eventalking to me? You know, because
like, if they didn't just pickup the phone randomly, if these
are not cold calls, right? Theyfound my website, or they heard
(07:56):
about it from someone or theywere introduced and then they
went ahead and they booked thecall with me. So if there's not
some kernel of interest, theywould never have even gotten on
the call with me. So so my firstthing that I want to do on any
of these calls is like, why am Iwhy are you talking to me? Like,
like, clearly, clearly have somekind of need? Clearly you think
(08:17):
that I might be able to help? Sowhat is it that you think might,
I might not word it this way butlike, that's what I'm trying to
ask them about. So so I'llprobably ask them about like, so
in the case of like audienceops, when I was selling the
first client on, on like, arecurring monthly blog content
plan, I was asking them, how doyou currently handle blog
content? You know, and thatusually gets them talking about
(08:40):
like, Well, I tried this, Itried to hire a freelancer, I
tried to write it myself. Andthen, you know, I had a hard
time with that, or it takes uptoo much time. And so now
they're just telling me allthese pain poi nts that they
have. And, and yeah, and then,you know, I'm usually, I usually
ask them like, well, whatquestions do you have for me?
And that's when they'll startasking me about, like, how much
(09:01):
does it cost? Or what's theprocess like, or what's
included? And, and so, then I'm,I'm sort of observing, what are
the questions that they'reasking me because those are
like, key point, key points ofinformation that they would need
to know about that later on, Iwill need to put on the website
to make sure that I'm educating,you know, leads.
Conor McCarthy (09:21):
Yeah, that's so interesting, like asking
questions, of course, but payingattention to the questions
they're asking. Because that's,it's it's signs of where you're
not being fully clear in youroffer, I guess.
Brian Casel (09:33):
Yeah, and that really interesting thing,
especially with with audienceops, I think that's, that's the
business where I really honed myskills as a salesperson, I still
don't think I'm a great phonesalesperson. But I literally did
hundreds of calls for like overthe years of that business. And
it was always really interestingto me how that literally the
(09:54):
same exact questions came up somany times, which is just a
clear indicator of like thereare, there's a clear path, a
clear roadmap that a personwould need to go down in order
to get to a point where they'recomfortable enough to spend. And
that's like an expensiveservice. So like there's,
(10:14):
they're paying 1000s of dollars.
So like, they have to getanswers to a series of
questions. And they usually wordthem in the exact same way. And
it was just really interesting,so hearing the same question so
many times and answering it somany times you get better and
better with like a tighterresponse. It really helps a lot.
Conor McCarthy (10:37):
So it's one of those just just got to do it,
kind of thing. Did you ever doany formal sales training or
anything like that on the job?
Brian Casel (10:45):
Yeah, no, I did not come from a sales background or
anything. But because I, again,I approached it like, I'm just
curious, I want to know, andyeah, and also it helped, you
know, I went from selling torestaurants and then I went to
selling audience ops, which ismostly selling to like SaaS
founders, that was like a breathof fresh air, right, because I
(11:05):
didn't enjoy talking torestaurant owners, I didn't have
anything in common with them. Itwasn't a lot of them were kind
of difficult to deal with. Withsales for audience ops, and now
even when I do Zip Message,sales, which is not so much over
the phone, it's, it's just niceto be able to talk to friends
and peers. Like, like the peoplethat I talk to, even if I'm not
(11:29):
close friends with them, they'rethe type of people I would
probably be talking to at aconference and have a good time
talking shop, you know, so.
Conor McCarthy (11:37):
I mean, yeah, it's not to be overlooked, you
know, do you actually enjoy yourcustomers, because it means
you'll have more sticking power,at the very least, you'll not
only do a better job, but you'llhang around longer.
Brian Casel (11:49):
Totally. I mean, that part of the reason I ended
up selling the restaurant enginebusiness back in 2015, was
because I was like, alright, Ifigured out how to get organic
leads and customers to the site.
But I felt like I reached aceiling on that. And like the
next step to really grow, itwould would be me flying to a
different city to go to arestaurant industry conference
(12:10):
or something like that. Yeah.
And I was like, yeah, I'm notgonna do that. That's, that's
not happening. So I don't thinkI could grow this business
anymore and I ended up sellingit.
Conor McCarthy (12:19):
Okay, okay.
Yeah, so that doesn't, thatdoesn't work. So when it came to
Zip Message, and starting offZip Message, it sounds like, I
mean, you've done this a fewtimes, you didn't have, it
doesn't sound like you had muchof a fear of launching a new, a
new business, a new project? Itwas just a case. It was just a
case of putting it out there.
Brian Casel (12:41):
Yeah and Zip Message came about way faster
than most other things that Ibuilt. I think I started, I
think I had the idea for it inlate 2020. And then I, first I
ended up just coding, like avery basic version of it and
designing a version of it withinthree months, and it was like
(13:04):
March 2021 is when I had thefirst like first free users, and
then the first paying customerswas in April, like a month
later.
Conor McCarthy (13:15):
Okay wow, and then from then on, was it
difficult for you to find, or Isuppose to set up your, your
lead generation framework?
Brian Casel (13:27):
Well, Zip Message is sort of a different type of
product than anything else thatI've done, because there's a
viral component to it. You know,once you sign up for Zip
message, and you create amessage, you send it to someone
else, they receive it, and theycan create it, you know, they
can just reply back to you. Butthey could also create their own
Zip Message account. So, so I'mstarting to see some of that
(13:49):
flywheel happen, okay. But Imean, it, it has still taken a
lot of, like a full year oflike, I talked about on my
podcast, I go on other podcaststo talk about it a lot. But
other sort of, like influentialpeople have started using Zip
Message, and then they tweetabout it, and they talk about
it, that that helps a lot. Butthen the interesting thing is,
(14:11):
you know, talking about like,talking to those first
customers, one of the thingsthat I've been doing since the
beginning of Zip Message, ofcourse is like, I like to send a
Zip Message to new users on zipmessage, like a lot of times,
like I'm the first personsending them a message. And, and
that's really great, becauselike, I'm actually having a
really good asynchronous backand forth conversation with like
(14:35):
a brand new customer who'strying to get value out of it or
trying to learn how this works.
They probably have a bunch offeature requests that I'm going
to hear about, and I and it'snice to like not have to get on
Zoom calls with every every oneof these customers. And, and
it's, it's been interesting toyou, like the conversation flows
(14:56):
in a different way when you'rewhen you're asynchronous, you
know, I feel like there's, it's,it's more, they pack more. How
do I say like, if somebody isgoing to write, you know, pair,
like a three minute videoresponse for me, they're
probably going to take somenotes. First, they're probably
(15:17):
going to prepare their ideas,they're probably going to have
really good questions ready togo for me and then I'll come
back to them, and then they,they'll receive it, they'll,
they'll think about it, they'llthey'll take a walk, and then
come back to me. And so there'slike a higher level of quality
that happens. And we canactually move the ball forward.
And I think on both ends, we'regetting more insight more value
out of it than then compared toif we're on a zoom call and
(15:41):
we're sort of both put on thespot and we just have to react
in the moment. You know.
Conor McCarthy (15:46):
That is fascinating. Now that you say
it, that makes complete sense.
Because when you're invited to azoom call, there's almost an
unspoken idea there that like wewill do all our thinking on the
call. And that's not necessarilythe best place to do all your
thinking. And many zoom calls,you're probably finding this
could just be replaced by somegood asynchronous video message,
maybe a shared doc or two. Andyou're done.
Brian Casel (16:10):
Absolutely, yeah, totally. I see that all the
time. I, I collaborate withother people on my work on zip
message using zip message. Andso like, I like to think about
it like, we get to contributeour best possible ideas when
we're asynchronous, because whenwe're on a on a zoom call, or a
meeting, you know, again, likewe're just sort of put on the
(16:31):
spot. So if somebody asks you aquestion, like, how should we
actually figure out thisproblem? How should we design
this website? Or how should wedo this marketing campaign?
Well, here's an idea. What if wedid this or that it's like, then
then later on, you look back onit, like, oh, I had such a
better idea, but I didn't thinkabout it in the moment, right?
This actually lets us to, letsus like, kind of take some space
(16:53):
and prepare our better answer.
And even like with Zip Message,you could record a response and
say, you know what, I could havesaid that better or tighter? And
just discard it and re record itbefore you send it.
Conor McCarthy (17:04):
Okay. Yeah, yeah, it does it does make a lot
of sense. I'm a fan. I hopeyou're enjoying this episode,
and that there's some actionableand insightful advice that you
can take out to your business.
Helping you identify and createthose first 10 customers is what
I do. So if you like what youhear on this podcast, and want
more information, including abunch of free resources on how
(17:25):
to find your first 10 customersand grow your business, check
out First10podcast.com, that's10 one, zero, or find me on
Twitter @thefirst10pod. Now, youprobably hear what I'm about to
say on every podcast you listento and it makes a really big
difference to the show. If youfind this podcast in any way
useful or enjoyable, I'd be sograteful if you left me a review
(17:47):
on iTunes, it really does make abig difference in terms of other
people discovering the podcast.
Also, if you leave a review, youwill get to see your name and
the review in lights. What I'lldo is I'll design your words and
post them online, tagging youand your project along with it.
I know it's a pretty sweet deal.
Okay, let's get on with theshow. Someone said to me there
(18:08):
the other day that sometimes thetiming of when you talk to a
customer is really important,especially to a paying customer,
someone who has said, You knowwhat, this is something I need
to the degree that I'm going tostart paying subscription. When
it comes to people who arecustomers, like, what's the kind
(18:29):
of what's the feedback that youlook for from paying customers?
Is it different from people whoare not yet paying customers?
Brian Casel (18:40):
Yeah, like, like looking back at all the
different products, it is itlike when there was like a free
trial, you know, it's always aquestion of like, well, is this
person going to convert or not?
And how much how much stockshould I put in what they're
telling me, on Zip Message wehave, we actually have a free
plan that anybody can use. Istill think that like a free
(19:00):
user still needs to get valueout of the tool and I still want
to make sure that the product isgiving them some level of value.
And upgrading is just a matterof like using it even more, you
know, so. But like otherproducts, like when I was doing
audience ops, we don't have anysort of free service. It was
(19:21):
really just about like a moretraditional sales call like
consultation. And, you know, Iactually got to a point with
audience ops after doinghundreds of those calls, I
created a video that every everyperson sees, so like they book a
call, but before they even geton that call, they see this 10
(19:41):
minute video. And then by thetime I get on the call with
them, they've already seen thatthey've seen the pricing and
everything so you know theyshould be pretty serious. They
shouldn't just be kicking thetires and you know not wasting
anybody's time.
Conor McCarthy (19:57):
Yeah, yeah, that's that's important. A
little little barrier to entryjust to get rid of the time
wasters.
Brian Casel (20:02):
Yeah. But like those early calls, like, you
know, customer research,especially for a brand new
product, I do try to get to thelike the money question as at
some point in the call, usuallynear the end of the call,
because, you know, you don'twant to have, you definitely
don't want to do a lot ofcustomer research and not even
discuss pricing, like, and Ialso don't really like the idea
(20:24):
of like, alright, well, here'sthis theoretical product, would
you pay for something like this?
Or how much would you pay for atool like this? Because people
are usually gonna try to tellyou what they what you want to
hear? Yeah. Instead, I like toask, what are the other tools
that you're currently payingfor? That are sort of like this?
And if you're willing to share,like, how much are you
(20:45):
currently? Like, which plan onthat other tool are you
currently paying for? That's areally good indicator of like,
okay, clearly, this is somethingthey're paying for, and, and
it's that important to them. Andit's sort of just a matter of
like, why would this thing bevaluable for them to switch?
You're not even really sellingon them? You're really just
convincing or trying tounderstand like, should should
(21:08):
they replace that cost withpaying for your product?
Conor McCarthy (21:12):
That's a really smart way to do it. Because
you're right, pricing and moneycan often be left to the end.
Because it's difficult to talkabout, especially if you're if
you're new to sales or new tobusiness, whatever. And I think
that's a really smart way to doit. It's not necessarily asking
them to give you a figure thatthey're just making up, or, or
(21:32):
that they might feel they'recommitting to, but it's more
like, what's, what's the worldyou live in? What are you
actually paying for? That feelsnatural to you, that feels like
you're getting value? Yep. Yeah,for sure. I like that. You must
have a ton of ideas in thehopper, or things that you've
had to say no to? Or approachesor collaborations and stuff? How
(21:53):
do you filter? How do you selffilter? Or how do you filter
incoming ideas?
Brian Casel (21:58):
Yeah, I feel like I'm the king of shiny objects.
I've always tried to write themdown, I put them in like a
notes, document or something. Ido keep a long list of ideas. I
own way too many domain namesthat I got overexcited about,
and then bought a domain. Butyou know, these days, I'm not
(22:22):
really pursuing any of thosebecause I'm really focused on
zip message. I mean, I justrecently did, some of the
businesses that I sold werelike, small projects that I did
sort of build, but it didn't goanywhere. They were little shiny
object ideas. But the ones thatlike are things that actually
(22:43):
turn into real businesses for meare, first of all, I, I get the
idea, and then I can't stopthinking about it. It's in the
shower, it's at night is everyday, it's just like, it doesn't
go away, no matter how much Itry to push it aside. I keep
thinking about it. Like that's,that's one indication. Usually
the other thing that happens islike, usually the reason why a
(23:06):
new idea even appears, isbecause something in my current
business is not going so well.
Or, or I've I've been at thisbusiness a long time, and I feel
burnt out on it. That's usuallywhen, at least for me, like my
mind has gone into like not notlike actively searching for new
(23:26):
ideas. But like, that's justwhen new things appear. Like,
yeah, like, I mean, the idea forZip Message, it was sort of
scratching my own itch, I wanteda tool for asynchronous video
messaging. But it was also like,I was working on process kit,
which was another SaaS product Irecently sold. And, for me, one
(23:46):
of the big challenges that I hadwith that SaaS product was that
it was, and so process kit is atool for creating operating
procedures and getting your teamon board and automating them.
And it's a pretty complicatedproduct to get up and running
and start using and you've gotto get your whole team to adopt
(24:08):
it. So it was a really toughprocess to get people to onboard
and activate and start paying.
And some people would they wouldgo but it's like a huge lift for
them to get their company toadopt it. And when I had the
idea for Zip Message, part ofthe thing that made it super
(24:28):
attractive to me was like, it'sso easy to get up and use, you
can just start using it and youcan get value from it the within
minutes of using your first ZipMessage and you don't even need
to get your whole company toadopt it. All you need to do is
like send a message to one otherperson and it sort of just
spreads like that. And so likelike that, for me working on a
(24:52):
business where onboarding was areally really big challenge.
Like the idea of working on ZipMessage was like really
attractive At that moment forme.
Conor McCarthy (25:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really worth paying
attention to as well. If you'relaunching something, and it is
going to be a, something thatyeah, you're going to need
people to really rethink the waythey work the way they do their
work. In the case of process,process kit, versus Zip Message,
which sounds like augmentingsome things that they're already
(25:21):
doing and just making, makingthings better. Just making
communication better and easierand faster, more thought out.
Brian Casel (25:28):
I mean, there, there is a lot of value in a
tool that is that is like soessential that it does take over
the way that your whole companyworks. Yeah. And I mean, that
the new owner is growing it thatway too. Like, it's, you know,
there's a lot of really greattools that are really
complicated and heavy to use,but that that usually means
they're very valuable, andthey're worth paying a lot of
(25:49):
money for. So, you know, there'spros and cons.
Conor McCarthy (25:52):
True, very true.
Um, any books that you've read,ever, or even in the last while
that you recommend to people whoare like books that you either
just like, or people that peoplewho are looking for the first 10
customers would would enjoyreading?
Brian Casel (26:06):
Let's see for the first 10 customers. Well, what
I'm reading right now, is sortof related to Zip Message. It's
a new book by Andrew Chen calledthe cold start problem. I don't
know that it's super applicableto most people even even to me
like it's, it's a lot of storiesabout like big tech companies
like Uber and Airbnb andDropbox. But the big focus is
(26:31):
like, how do you start a, like anetwork based business like a
viral premium business, and howto grow from a small network to,
to a larger network. He's gotsome pretty interesting ideas. I
mean, in general, I am not bigon like business books that are
(26:52):
like how to do something. I'mmuch more I do read business
books, but usually they're morelike biographies and stories.
And I like that a lot. And Ijust like stories in general.
That's why I'm such a fan ofpodcasts I like to listen to. I
like to watch what otherentrepreneurs are doing and
building and following theirstories. And, and then in terms
(27:17):
of like, tactical stuff, I tendto just get the best knowledge
by trying it and doing it. Whilejust observing what other people
are doing. You know, I actuallyI mean, I'm sure others have
have recommended this other bookThe Mom Test. That's, that's a
good one. I got some advice fromthat that's really good for like
that early customer research.
Conor McCarthy (27:37):
Yeah, it's it's a phenomenal book. And even that
there's some pretty good videosout there as well. It's yeah,
it's one I've recommended. I'veread it a couple of times
myself. It is it's, it's apretty great, it's a well
written book as well. It'spretty enjoyable read, let alone
being useful. The last question,what advice would you give to
people going out to find theirfirst 10 customers?
Brian Casel (27:59):
Good question. I've been talking about this a lot
lately, actually. I think thatwhen you're early on, just
launch a lot of things. I don'tmean, do them all at once. But
you know, you will hear thisadvice, where people will say
like, you have to focus on onething, and you have to go all in
(28:20):
on one thing. And don't, don'tfollow those shiny objects, you
got to focus on on the thingthat you have, you just got to
give it more time to you know,double down on the thing that
you have. I get that. And, andI'm doing that now. But I've
been self employed for 13 years.
And and I got a lot of value inmy whole career. By doing a lot
of things in the first 10 yearsof my career. I mean, I jumped
(28:44):
from one business to the next,like, pretty rapidly and at many
times, I had several thingsgoing. And in those early years,
I was a freelancer consultant,basically making a living by
selling my time, but I waswilling to do projects where I
was earning $0 for long hours ofwork, like building my first
(29:06):
digital product, or putting outa first ebook to the world or
trying to build a SaaS, I mean,your very first one here, your
look, chances are you're notgoing to be successful with it.
But you're going to learn a ton,especially if you're used to
being a consultant where you'regetting paid like $100 an hour
for something you have to bewilling to put in the same hours
on your own projects gettingpaid nothing and because you're
(29:27):
going to learn you're gonna getgained that experience. And I
went through this long list ofbusinesses, I would never have
landed on Zip Message now if Ididn't learn things from Process
Kit, I never would have landedon Process Kit if I didn't learn
a ton from Audience Ops andAudience Ops came from what I
learned from Restaurant Engineand like I wouldn't have landed
(29:48):
on those ideas unless I had gonethrough that that experience.
Conor McCarthy (29:53):
Yeah, that is that's great advice there is
there's always learning to behad no matter what happens,
success or no and it's aboutbuilding on that. I like that.
That's a great place to wrap up.
Brian, thank you so, so much foryour time and all your wisdom
you shared here. I'll includelinks to all your resources and
your podcast in the show notes,of course.
Brian Casel (30:14):
Yeah, sounds good Conor. This was fun. Thanks.
I would never have landed on zip message now if I
didn't learn things from processkit, I never would have landed
on process kit if I didn't learna ton from audience ops audience
apps came from what I learnedfor restaurant engine, I
wouldn't have landed on thoseideas unless I had gone through
that that experience.
Conor McCarthy (00:19):
Hello, and welcome to season four of the
first 10 podcast. I'm your hostConor McCarthy, and I help
people start and grow theirbusinesses. I do that through
joint ventures, collaborations,coaching, and online workshops.
In each episode of this podcast,I interview business builders
about the early days of startinga business, about how they found
their first 10 customers and gotoff the ground, so you can learn
(00:40):
what works and what doesn't.
Check out my websiteConorMcCarthy.me. for more
details. My guest today is BrianCasel. Brian has had a really
fascinating serial entrepreneurjourney. On today's episode, he
fills us in on how he approachedand launched a few of his
businesses. from SaaS to producttype services. Brian currently
runs zip message, which is atool for asynchronous video
conversations with your team andcustomers. And I think it's a
(01:02):
brilliant, brilliant piece ofsoftware. He also hosts his own
podcast called Bootstrapped Web.
Brian shares a ton from hisextensive experience starting
and growing businesses. In thisepisode, for example, we cover
how to grow an audience for yourbusiness, how to talk to your
customers and how to do it well,the best way to handle sales
calls, how to talk aboutpricing, and shiny object
(01:24):
syndrome, and so much more.
Lastly, Brian has a great andkind of contrarian advice on the
topic of focus when buildingyour ideal business. So please
do enjoy this episode with BrianCasel and thank you for
listening.
First of all, Brian, welcome tothe show and thank you very much
for taking the time to be withus here today.
Brian Casel (01:45):
Thanks, Conor.
Conor McCarthy (01:47):
Can you just give us a quick 60 or 90 second
overview about you and yourcurrent business?
Brian Casel (01:51):
Yeah, so my name is Brian Casel, I am the founder of
Zip Message. That's the businessthat I'm now fully focused on.
Mostly because I sold off allthe other businesses that I that
I had going before that justrecently, like in the last five
or six months. But yeah, ZipMessage is a SaaS app for video
(02:13):
messaging, you can also sendscreen and and audio only or
even text messages. And it'sit's for asynchronous messaging,
asynchronous conversations. Soyou know, you might be familiar
with it with tools like likeloom where you can record a
video and send it to someone,it's sort of similar to that,
except the difference is you theother person can easily reply
(02:34):
back to you. So it's reallygreat for communicating with
with like clients or freelancersor people that you might hire,
or, or even podcasters are usingit to get feedback from their
listeners and things like that.
So it's just really easy to hopinto an asynchronous call and a
good way to like replace, youknow, Zoom calls and calendar
bookings and things like that.
(02:58):
Like real quick, I'm sure we'llget into it, but like before
this, my main business for sevenyears was called Audience Ops
and I sold that business in late2021. That was a content
service, like it was aproductised service built around
delivering blog content as aservice, I had a team of writers
and we would basically power theblogs for lots of mostly
(03:22):
software companies. I had acouple of attempts at building
other SaaS products in recentyears and some of them were more
successful than others. One thatthat did okay was called Process
Kit. I grew, I worked on that Ireally learned full stack
development with Ruby on Railswhat while building that and ran
(03:43):
that for about three years and Iended up selling that business
last year, actually, just a fewmonths ago, early 2022 is when I
sold sold that one off, justcouldn't continue growing it and
Zip Message had much moretraction at the time. So yeah,
and you know, going goingfurther back, I had another
business called RestaurantEngine that was like a website
builder for the restaurantindustry bootstrapped and sold
(04:07):
that business in 2015. And waybefore that, I was like a
freelance web designer, webdeveloper. So that's, that's
where I come from.
Conor McCarthy (04:17):
I love it the reverse history. That's
brilliant. Thank you for that.
That's a great overview. Becauseas I said before, like this is
all about serial entrepreneursthis season. So it's people who
have kind of picked up and doneit again and again and again. So
even to go back to I mean, doyou have to go back to your
freelance days if you want, buteven the restaurant engine or
any of the subsequent ones, doyou remember what it was like
(04:39):
getting your first 10 customersin any of those businesses?
Brian Casel (04:43):
Oh, yeah, I mean, every single one. I often really
believe that like the firstcustomer like the first 10
customers, it's like even wait,it's so much more exciting than
like your 100th customer. Ithink that's really true and I
have to sort of remember back,but I, but yeah, I mean, I do
(05:05):
more or less remember, like thewhen when it happened and sort
of who it was and, and how itcame about. So happy to go into
it.
Conor McCarthy (05:14):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, whatever
you're happy to share, even ifit's because I know a lot of
people listening to this, itwill be kind of will be
wondering just how yeah, how dowe get the first one? I mean, 10
would be great. But even thefirst one would be?
Brian Casel (05:26):
Yeah, let's see. I mean, a lot of it had to do with
how my circumstance changed overthe years. So like, in the more
recent businesses, you know,I've grown a small audience for
myself and a network. And sothat's helped a lot in the more
recent businesses, like, like,when I launched Zip Message, I
had just announced it to myemail list, and I have a podcast
(05:49):
and I have, I have Twitter. Andso that's generally where the
first customers came from forthat. Going back to Audience
Ops, the content service, theway that what happened was, I
just sent an a warm email tolike 20 or 25 Friends, so people
in the industry who I have,obviously, they're good friends
(06:10):
with, or maybe I've met them ata conference or something like
that. And, and I think I createdlike a one page, like, very
basic informational page aboutthis new content as a service
idea. And, and I sort of justsent it to them, I was like,
hey, what, how does this look toyou? Do you have any thoughts or
feedback, if you or anyone youmight know, might might know
(06:33):
someone who needs help with blogcontent? You know, I'd love an
introduction. And then out ofthat, I think I got something
like, six or seven phone calls.
And out of that, I landed thefirst three clients, for the for
the audience apps business,
Conor McCarthy (06:47):
do you remember any of the any of the tactics
used or the approach to thosecalls?
Brian Casel (06:52):
I generally with, when it comes to calls like
that, you can think of themlike, I guess I think of them as
like sales calls. But even like,because like for audience ops, I
not only sold the first one butI sold, many of the clients that
ever came on to audience appsonly only at the very near the
(07:13):
end of that business, I actuallyhad a different salesperson
doing that. But I was the persondoing this sales calls most of
the time. And, and I did thosevery first calls and my approach
in general is just to really askmore questions than talk about
it. Like I'm, I'm I come intowith an approach like, I'm
(07:34):
curious, I want to know who youare, what you're trying to do.
And I want to I want to know,like, really what your goals
are. But also, I think thebiggest question that I want to
ask is like, why are you eventalking to me? You know, because
like, if they didn't just pickup the phone randomly, if these
are not cold calls, right? Theyfound my website, or they heard
(07:56):
about it from someone or theywere introduced and then they
went ahead and they booked thecall with me. So if there's not
some kernel of interest, theywould never have even gotten on
the call with me. So so my firstthing that I want to do on any
of these calls is like, why am Iwhy are you talking to me? Like,
like, clearly, clearly have somekind of need? Clearly you think
(08:17):
that I might be able to help? Sowhat is it that you think might,
I might not word it this way butlike, that's what I'm trying to
ask them about. So so I'llprobably ask them about like, so
in the case of like audienceops, when I was selling the
first client on, on like, arecurring monthly blog content
plan, I was asking them, how doyou currently handle blog
content? You know, and thatusually gets them talking about
(08:40):
like, Well, I tried this, Itried to hire a freelancer, I
tried to write it myself. Andthen, you know, I had a hard
time with that, or it takes uptoo much time. And so now
they're just telling me allthese pain poi nts that they
have. And, and yeah, and then,you know, I'm usually, I usually
ask them like, well, whatquestions do you have for me?
And that's when they'll startasking me about, like, how much
(09:01):
does it cost? Or what's theprocess like, or what's
included? And, and so, then I'm,I'm sort of observing, what are
the questions that they'reasking me because those are
like, key point, key points ofinformation that they would need
to know about that later on, Iwill need to put on the website
to make sure that I'm educating,you know, leads.
Conor McCarthy (09:21):
Yeah, that's so interesting, like asking
questions, of course, but payingattention to the questions
they're asking. Because that's,it's it's signs of where you're
not being fully clear in youroffer, I guess.
Brian Casel (09:33):
Yeah, and that really interesting thing,
especially with with audienceops, I think that's, that's the
business where I really honed myskills as a salesperson, I still
don't think I'm a great phonesalesperson. But I literally did
hundreds of calls for like overthe years of that business. And
it was always really interestingto me how that literally the
(09:54):
same exact questions came up somany times, which is just a
clear indicator of like thereare, there's a clear path, a
clear roadmap that a personwould need to go down in order
to get to a point where they'recomfortable enough to spend. And
that's like an expensiveservice. So like there's,
(10:14):
they're paying 1000s of dollars.
So like, they have to getanswers to a series of
questions. And they usually wordthem in the exact same way. And
it was just really interesting,so hearing the same question so
many times and answering it somany times you get better and
better with like a tighterresponse. It really helps a lot.
Conor McCarthy (10:37):
So it's one of those just just got to do it,
kind of thing. Did you ever doany formal sales training or
anything like that on the job?
Brian Casel (10:45):
Yeah, no, I did not come from a sales background or
anything. But because I, again,I approached it like, I'm just
curious, I want to know, andyeah, and also it helped, you
know, I went from selling torestaurants and then I went to
selling audience ops, which ismostly selling to like SaaS
founders, that was like a breathof fresh air, right, because I
(11:05):
didn't enjoy talking torestaurant owners, I didn't have
anything in common with them. Itwasn't a lot of them were kind
of difficult to deal with. Withsales for audience ops, and now
even when I do Zip Message,sales, which is not so much over
the phone, it's, it's just niceto be able to talk to friends
and peers. Like, like the peoplethat I talk to, even if I'm not
(11:29):
close friends with them, they'rethe type of people I would
probably be talking to at aconference and have a good time
talking shop, you know, so.
Conor McCarthy (11:37):
I mean, yeah, it's not to be overlooked, you
know, do you actually enjoy yourcustomers, because it means
you'll have more sticking power,at the very least, you'll not
only do a better job, but you'llhang around longer.
Brian Casel (11:49):
Totally. I mean, that part of the reason I ended
up selling the restaurant enginebusiness back in 2015, was
because I was like, alright, Ifigured out how to get organic
leads and customers to the site.
But I felt like I reached aceiling on that. And like the
next step to really grow, itwould would be me flying to a
different city to go to arestaurant industry conference
(12:10):
or something like that. Yeah.
And I was like, yeah, I'm notgonna do that. That's, that's
not happening. So I don't thinkI could grow this business
anymore and I ended up sellingit.
Conor McCarthy (12:19):
Okay, okay.
Yeah, so that doesn't, thatdoesn't work. So when it came to
Zip Message, and starting offZip Message, it sounds like, I
mean, you've done this a fewtimes, you didn't have, it
doesn't sound like you had muchof a fear of launching a new, a
new business, a new project? Itwas just a case. It was just a
case of putting it out there.
Brian Casel (12:41):
Yeah and Zip Message came about way faster
than most other things that Ibuilt. I think I started, I
think I had the idea for it inlate 2020. And then I, first I
ended up just coding, like avery basic version of it and
designing a version of it withinthree months, and it was like
(13:04):
March 2021 is when I had thefirst like first free users, and
then the first paying customerswas in April, like a month
later.
Conor McCarthy (13:15):
Okay wow, and then from then on, was it
difficult for you to find, or Isuppose to set up your, your
lead generation framework?
Brian Casel (13:27):
Well, Zip Message is sort of a different type of
product than anything else thatI've done, because there's a
viral component to it. You know,once you sign up for Zip
message, and you create amessage, you send it to someone
else, they receive it, and theycan create it, you know, they
can just reply back to you. Butthey could also create their own
Zip Message account. So, so I'mstarting to see some of that
(13:49):
flywheel happen, okay. But Imean, it, it has still taken a
lot of, like a full year oflike, I talked about on my
podcast, I go on other podcaststo talk about it a lot. But
other sort of, like influentialpeople have started using Zip
Message, and then they tweetabout it, and they talk about
it, that that helps a lot. Butthen the interesting thing is,
(14:11):
you know, talking about like,talking to those first
customers, one of the thingsthat I've been doing since the
beginning of Zip Message, ofcourse is like, I like to send a
Zip Message to new users on zipmessage, like a lot of times,
like I'm the first personsending them a message. And, and
that's really great, becauselike, I'm actually having a
really good asynchronous backand forth conversation with like
(14:35):
a brand new customer who'strying to get value out of it or
trying to learn how this works.
They probably have a bunch offeature requests that I'm going
to hear about, and I and it'snice to like not have to get on
Zoom calls with every every oneof these customers. And, and
it's, it's been interesting toyou, like the conversation flows
(14:56):
in a different way when you'rewhen you're asynchronous, you
know, I feel like there's, it's,it's more, they pack more. How
do I say like, if somebody isgoing to write, you know, pair,
like a three minute videoresponse for me, they're
probably going to take somenotes. First, they're probably
(15:17):
going to prepare their ideas,they're probably going to have
really good questions ready togo for me and then I'll come
back to them, and then they,they'll receive it, they'll,
they'll think about it, they'llthey'll take a walk, and then
come back to me. And so there'slike a higher level of quality
that happens. And we canactually move the ball forward.
And I think on both ends, we'regetting more insight more value
out of it than then compared toif we're on a zoom call and
(15:41):
we're sort of both put on thespot and we just have to react
in the moment. You know.
Conor McCarthy (15:46):
That is fascinating. Now that you say
it, that makes complete sense.
Because when you're invited to azoom call, there's almost an
unspoken idea there that like wewill do all our thinking on the
call. And that's not necessarilythe best place to do all your
thinking. And many zoom calls,you're probably finding this
could just be replaced by somegood asynchronous video message,
maybe a shared doc or two. Andyou're done.
Brian Casel (16:10):
Absolutely, yeah, totally. I see that all the
time. I, I collaborate withother people on my work on zip
message using zip message. Andso like, I like to think about
it like, we get to contributeour best possible ideas when
we're asynchronous, because whenwe're on a on a zoom call, or a
meeting, you know, again, likewe're just sort of put on the
(16:31):
spot. So if somebody asks you aquestion, like, how should we
actually figure out thisproblem? How should we design
this website? Or how should wedo this marketing campaign?
Well, here's an idea. What if wedid this or that it's like, then
then later on, you look back onit, like, oh, I had such a
better idea, but I didn't thinkabout it in the moment, right?
This actually lets us to, letsus like, kind of take some space
(16:53):
and prepare our better answer.
And even like with Zip Message,you could record a response and
say, you know what, I could havesaid that better or tighter? And
just discard it and re record itbefore you send it.
Conor McCarthy (17:04):
Okay. Yeah, yeah, it does it does make a lot
of sense. I'm a fan. I hopeyou're enjoying this episode,
and that there's some actionableand insightful advice that you
can take out to your business.
Helping you identify and createthose first 10 customers is what
I do. So if you like what youhear on this podcast, and want
more information, including abunch of free resources on how
(17:25):
to find your first 10 customersand grow your business, check
out First10podcast.com, that's10 one, zero, or find me on
Twitter @thefirst10pod. Now, youprobably hear what I'm about to
say on every podcast you listento and it makes a really big
difference to the show. If youfind this podcast in any way
useful or enjoyable, I'd be sograteful if you left me a review
(17:47):
on iTunes, it really does make abig difference in terms of other
people discovering the podcast.
Also, if you leave a review, youwill get to see your name and
the review in lights. What I'lldo is I'll design your words and
post them online, tagging youand your project along with it.
I know it's a pretty sweet deal.
Okay, let's get on with theshow. Someone said to me there
(18:08):
the other day that sometimes thetiming of when you talk to a
customer is really important,especially to a paying customer,
someone who has said, You knowwhat, this is something I need
to the degree that I'm going tostart paying subscription. When
it comes to people who arecustomers, like, what's the kind
(18:29):
of what's the feedback that youlook for from paying customers?
Is it different from people whoare not yet paying customers?
Brian Casel (18:40):
Yeah, like, like looking back at all the
different products, it is itlike when there was like a free
trial, you know, it's always aquestion of like, well, is this
person going to convert or not?
And how much how much stockshould I put in what they're
telling me, on Zip Message wehave, we actually have a free
plan that anybody can use. Istill think that like a free
(19:00):
user still needs to get valueout of the tool and I still want
to make sure that the product isgiving them some level of value.
And upgrading is just a matterof like using it even more, you
know, so. But like otherproducts, like when I was doing
audience ops, we don't have anysort of free service. It was
(19:21):
really just about like a moretraditional sales call like
consultation. And, you know, Iactually got to a point with
audience ops after doinghundreds of those calls, I
created a video that every everyperson sees, so like they book a
call, but before they even geton that call, they see this 10
(19:41):
minute video. And then by thetime I get on the call with
them, they've already seen thatthey've seen the pricing and
everything so you know theyshould be pretty serious. They
shouldn't just be kicking thetires and you know not wasting
anybody's time.
Conor McCarthy (19:57):
Yeah, yeah, that's that's important. A
little little barrier to entryjust to get rid of the time
wasters.
Brian Casel (20:02):
Yeah. But like those early calls, like, you
know, customer research,especially for a brand new
product, I do try to get to thelike the money question as at
some point in the call, usuallynear the end of the call,
because, you know, you don'twant to have, you definitely
don't want to do a lot ofcustomer research and not even
discuss pricing, like, and Ialso don't really like the idea
(20:24):
of like, alright, well, here'sthis theoretical product, would
you pay for something like this?
Or how much would you pay for atool like this? Because people
are usually gonna try to tellyou what they what you want to
hear? Yeah. Instead, I like toask, what are the other tools
that you're currently payingfor? That are sort of like this?
And if you're willing to share,like, how much are you
(20:45):
currently? Like, which plan onthat other tool are you
currently paying for? That's areally good indicator of like,
okay, clearly, this is somethingthey're paying for, and, and
it's that important to them. Andit's sort of just a matter of
like, why would this thing bevaluable for them to switch?
You're not even really sellingon them? You're really just
convincing or trying tounderstand like, should should
(21:08):
they replace that cost withpaying for your product?
Conor McCarthy (21:12):
That's a really smart way to do it. Because
you're right, pricing and moneycan often be left to the end.
Because it's difficult to talkabout, especially if you're if
you're new to sales or new tobusiness, whatever. And I think
that's a really smart way to doit. It's not necessarily asking
them to give you a figure thatthey're just making up, or, or
(21:32):
that they might feel they'recommitting to, but it's more
like, what's, what's the worldyou live in? What are you
actually paying for? That feelsnatural to you, that feels like
you're getting value? Yep. Yeah,for sure. I like that. You must
have a ton of ideas in thehopper, or things that you've
had to say no to? Or approachesor collaborations and stuff? How
(21:53):
do you filter? How do you selffilter? Or how do you filter
incoming ideas?
Brian Casel (21:58):
Yeah, I feel like I'm the king of shiny objects.
I've always tried to write themdown, I put them in like a
notes, document or something. Ido keep a long list of ideas. I
own way too many domain namesthat I got overexcited about,
and then bought a domain. Butyou know, these days, I'm not
(22:22):
really pursuing any of thosebecause I'm really focused on
zip message. I mean, I justrecently did, some of the
businesses that I sold werelike, small projects that I did
sort of build, but it didn't goanywhere. They were little shiny
object ideas. But the ones thatlike are things that actually
(22:43):
turn into real businesses for meare, first of all, I, I get the
idea, and then I can't stopthinking about it. It's in the
shower, it's at night is everyday, it's just like, it doesn't
go away, no matter how much Itry to push it aside. I keep
thinking about it. Like that's,that's one indication. Usually
the other thing that happens islike, usually the reason why a
(23:06):
new idea even appears, isbecause something in my current
business is not going so well.
Or, or I've I've been at thisbusiness a long time, and I feel
burnt out on it. That's usuallywhen, at least for me, like my
mind has gone into like not notlike actively searching for new
(23:26):
ideas. But like, that's justwhen new things appear. Like,
yeah, like, I mean, the idea forZip Message, it was sort of
scratching my own itch, I wanteda tool for asynchronous video
messaging. But it was also like,I was working on process kit,
which was another SaaS product Irecently sold. And, for me, one
(23:46):
of the big challenges that I hadwith that SaaS product was that
it was, and so process kit is atool for creating operating
procedures and getting your teamon board and automating them.
And it's a pretty complicatedproduct to get up and running
and start using and you've gotto get your whole team to adopt
(24:08):
it. So it was a really toughprocess to get people to onboard
and activate and start paying.
And some people would they wouldgo but it's like a huge lift for
them to get their company toadopt it. And when I had the
idea for Zip Message, part ofthe thing that made it super
(24:28):
attractive to me was like, it'sso easy to get up and use, you
can just start using it and youcan get value from it the within
minutes of using your first ZipMessage and you don't even need
to get your whole company toadopt it. All you need to do is
like send a message to one otherperson and it sort of just
spreads like that. And so likelike that, for me working on a
(24:52):
business where onboarding was areally really big challenge.
Like the idea of working on ZipMessage was like really
attractive At that moment forme.
Conor McCarthy (25:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really worth paying
attention to as well. If you'relaunching something, and it is
going to be a, something thatyeah, you're going to need
people to really rethink the waythey work the way they do their
work. In the case of process,process kit, versus Zip Message,
which sounds like augmentingsome things that they're already
(25:21):
doing and just making, makingthings better. Just making
communication better and easierand faster, more thought out.
Brian Casel (25:28):
I mean, there, there is a lot of value in a
tool that is that is like soessential that it does take over
the way that your whole companyworks. Yeah. And I mean, that
the new owner is growing it thatway too. Like, it's, you know,
there's a lot of really greattools that are really
complicated and heavy to use,but that that usually means
they're very valuable, andthey're worth paying a lot of
(25:49):
money for. So, you know, there'spros and cons.
Conor McCarthy (25:52):
True, very true.
Um, any books that you've read,ever, or even in the last while
that you recommend to people whoare like books that you either
just like, or people that peoplewho are looking for the first 10
customers would would enjoyreading?
Brian Casel (26:06):
Let's see for the first 10 customers. Well, what
I'm reading right now, is sortof related to Zip Message. It's
a new book by Andrew Chen calledthe cold start problem. I don't
know that it's super applicableto most people even even to me
like it's, it's a lot of storiesabout like big tech companies
like Uber and Airbnb andDropbox. But the big focus is
(26:31):
like, how do you start a, like anetwork based business like a
viral premium business, and howto grow from a small network to,
to a larger network. He's gotsome pretty interesting ideas. I
mean, in general, I am not bigon like business books that are
(26:52):
like how to do something. I'mmuch more I do read business
books, but usually they're morelike biographies and stories.
And I like that a lot. And Ijust like stories in general.
That's why I'm such a fan ofpodcasts I like to listen to. I
like to watch what otherentrepreneurs are doing and
building and following theirstories. And, and then in terms
(27:17):
of like, tactical stuff, I tendto just get the best knowledge
by trying it and doing it. Whilejust observing what other people
are doing. You know, I actuallyI mean, I'm sure others have
have recommended this other bookThe Mom Test. That's, that's a
good one. I got some advice fromthat that's really good for like
that early customer research.
Conor McCarthy (27:37):
Yeah, it's it's a phenomenal book. And even that
there's some pretty good videosout there as well. It's yeah,
it's one I've recommended. I'veread it a couple of times
myself. It is it's, it's apretty great, it's a well
written book as well. It'spretty enjoyable read, let alone
being useful. The last question,what advice would you give to
people going out to find theirfirst 10 customers?
Brian Casel (27:59):
Good question. I've been talking about this a lot
lately, actually. I think thatwhen you're early on, just
launch a lot of things. I don'tmean, do them all at once. But
you know, you will hear thisadvice, where people will say
like, you have to focus on onething, and you have to go all in
(28:20):
on one thing. And don't, don'tfollow those shiny objects, you
got to focus on on the thingthat you have, you just got to
give it more time to you know,double down on the thing that
you have. I get that. And, andI'm doing that now. But I've
been self employed for 13 years.
And and I got a lot of value inmy whole career. By doing a lot
of things in the first 10 yearsof my career. I mean, I jumped
(28:44):
from one business to the next,like, pretty rapidly and at many
times, I had several thingsgoing. And in those early years,
I was a freelancer consultant,basically making a living by
selling my time, but I waswilling to do projects where I
was earning $0 for long hours ofwork, like building my first
(29:06):
digital product, or putting outa first ebook to the world or
trying to build a SaaS, I mean,your very first one here, your
look, chances are you're notgoing to be successful with it.
But you're going to learn a ton,especially if you're used to
being a consultant where you'regetting paid like $100 an hour
for something you have to bewilling to put in the same hours
on your own projects gettingpaid nothing and because you're
(29:27):
going to learn you're gonna getgained that experience. And I
went through this long list ofbusinesses, I would never have
landed on Zip Message now if Ididn't learn things from Process
Kit, I never would have landedon Process Kit if I didn't learn
a ton from Audience Ops andAudience Ops came from what I
learned from Restaurant Engineand like I wouldn't have landed
(29:48):
on those ideas unless I had gonethrough that that experience.
Conor McCarthy (29:53):
Yeah, that is that's great advice there is
there's always learning to behad no matter what happens,
success or no and it's aboutbuilding on that. I like that.
That's a great place to wrap up.
Brian, thank you so, so much foryour time and all your wisdom
you shared here. I'll includelinks to all your resources and
your podcast in the show notes,of course.
Brian Casel (30:14):
Yeah, sounds good Conor. This was fun. Thanks.
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