July 2, 2021 • 30 mins
Listeners are in for a treat with this final episode of the season featuring prolific freelancer Tom Hirst. Tom is a WordPress developer, business owner, author, creator, mentor, and Twitter guru. Tom has a passion for helping others get ahead by sharing his experience and learnings with people from all corners of the globe, guiding them to become better freelancers through his newsletter, courses, books, and mentorship programmes.
In this jam-packed episode, Conor and Tom dive into the world of freelancing, discussing how to generate leads, pricing your work, and marketing yourself consistently. Main points covered throughout the episode include:
- Tom’s introduction to becoming a freelancer.
- Obtaining new clients through your network.
- How a personal website generated new leads.
- Discovering your unique selling point and standing out from the crowd.
- Becoming comfortable with being uncomfortable.
- Tapping into SEO and the importance of learning the basics.
- Identifying your ideal customers.
- Pricing your freelance services & pricing mistakes freelancers can make.
- How to market yourself consistently.
- Healthy competition – your competitor is not your enemy.
- Embracing social media and overcoming the fear of sharing in public.
- Advice on building your personal brand.
- Why authenticity matters.
- Tom’s tips for finding your first 10 customers.
Connect with Tom Hirst:
http://www.tomhirst.com/products/10-steps-to-becoming-a-better-freelancer/
http://www.tomhirst.com/mentorship/
Connect with First 10 Podcast host Conor McCarthy:
http://twitter.com/TheFirst10Pod
http://www.linkedin.com/in/comccart/
Resources:
Book: Hourly Billing Is Nuts by Jonathan Stark
https://jonathanstark.com/hbin
Produced in partnership with podlad.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Hirst (00:01):
You don't have to see competitors as your enemies. You
can follow another freelanceWordPress developer and hit them
up in DM's, see how they'redoing, you know, build a bit of
rapport. And then who's going tobe the first person that they
come to when they have anoverflow project. Social media,
I think is a specialist Twitter.
It's such a powerful tool formarketing stuff.
Conor McCarthy (00:20):
Hello, listeners, and welcome back to
the first 10 podcast. I'm yourhost Conor McCarthy. And in each
episode, I interview BusinessBuilders on their first 10
customers, who they were, howthey found them, how they talked
to them, and what effect theyhad on their business so that
you can learn what worked andwhat didn't.
When I'm not recording podcasts,I help Business Builders find
(00:40):
their first 10 customers andgrow their businesses. I do that
with one to one coaching, and aseries of online workshops.
Please do check out my websiteConormccarthy.me for more
details and sign up to myregular newsletter. I hope you
My guest today is Tom Hirst. AndI'll be totally honest, when I
decided who I wanted to inviteonto this season of freelancers,
(01:01):
Tom's name sprang immediately tomind. But simultaneously I
thought, Tom is one of the mostprolific people I follow on
Twitter and Twitter isn't evenis day job. He's a WordPress
eveloper. So he'll probably sayo, but thankfully for us, Tom
aid, yes, this episode isacked full of simple and
ctionable things that you cano to start or improve your
(01:23):
reelancing career. Tom reallys that freelancers freelancer,
e's actually written a numberf books, to help us all get
etter clients, to improve ourreelancing craft, and to take
ome of the mysticism out ofhat success as a freelancer
eally looks like. A few thingse talked about in this episode
nclude getting over the fear ofharing in public, we talk about
nderstanding how yourompetitors aren't necessarily
(01:45):
our enemies. We talk an awfulot about one of Tom's
pecialities and that's prcing freelance projects and he
ctually has a book of the samname. Also, check out the sho
notes for a link to Tom's ebok that's called 10 steps to bec
ming a better freelancer, it'actually free on Gumroad. It
s stuffed full of value. I'm amaed it's free on there. I've act
ally referenced it a good fewtimes, on doing some my fre
(02:08):
lance work, but if you want toay Tom a little something for
it, you definitely won't reget it. This is the last show of
his season. And I'm really, realy excited that I can end thi
with Tom's interview. He is a mst follow on Twitter. The boo
s and courses that he prouces are some of the most hig
signal, low noise resources outthere for freelancers. So ple
(02:29):
se do enjoy the show. with TomHirst.
enjoy the show.
Tom Hirst, first of all, thankyou very, very much for taking
the time to be with us heretoday.
Tom Hirst (02:40):
No worries. Thanks for having me, Conor.
Conor McCarthy (02:42):
Do you wanna tell us a little bit about what
you do before we get into thethe time travel machine and go
back to your first 10 customers.
Tom Hirst (02:48):
Yeah, sure. Um, so I'm a longtime freelance web
developer. I've been programmingfor around 16 years now and
freelancing for around 12. Inthe last couple of years, I've
started going more into creatingthings, products, in particular,
to help other freelancers getahead in their careers too and
(03:09):
just experimenting more really,with social media writing, and
all that. So yeah, got it got alot of stuff going on.
Conor McCarthy (03:15):
Yeah, it's very, I've said at the top of the
show, since I've discovered youon Twitter, I've read like
everything you've posted, youare prolific, but also the the
stuff you put out on Twitter andgumroad. And all your projects
they are, they're really, reallyvaluable because they're they're
so true, I guess is one wordthat will come to mind. You like
(03:37):
the the lessons and the adviceyou share are born of things
that you've gone throughyourself. So it's very, it's
very real when you talk aboutthese things.
Tom Hirst (03:48):
Yeah, I try and be like fairly blunt and raw about
everything that I share, becauseI think that that's what
resonates best, and it's themost helpful to people.
Conor McCarthy (03:55):
Yes, absolutely.
So, so going back to thefreelancer for 12 years, and
you've been developing for 16years. So when you first started
freelancing, why did you jumpinto freelancing?
Tom Hirst (04:06):
Um, I mean, there's a little story about about this
decision, really. So I'll tellthat real quick. So I left
University at age 22. And I hadthese programming skills. So I
just applied for a job, likewhat you would you know,
typically the path that youwould go down, you know, leave
education, apply for a job,learn, you know, the ropes and
things like that, and thenperhaps go freelance if it's
(04:28):
suited later on. But anyway, Iapplied for this job at a local
college doing just it was goingto be like a web development
role as a junior under someoneelse. And I just despised the
whole process. I can remembersitting in the waiting room
waiting for my interview, andI'm thinking, I just don't like
this environment. I don't likethe hierarchy. I don't like how
(04:50):
it makes me feel. I don't likebeing dictated to, I guess
really, I just, I just kind ofhad this epiphany that I can't
work for a boss. And I had thatjust sat in that room. Right.
And But anyway, I went throughthe, I went through the
interview process, and I gotfeedback that came a close
second. And it probably toldthat my heart wasn't really in
(05:12):
it. And I thought, well, whatshould I do now with this
discovery, this learning aboutmyself? And I thought, let's go
freelance. Let's just give it ago and see how far it'll take
me. And, yeah, 12 years later,still, yeah.
Conor McCarthy (05:25):
Still here. So.
So how did you get your veryfirst client?
Tom Hirst (05:28):
So that after I'd had this realization that I was
going to go freelance, I had toobviously scramble for clients?
I guess? That's what everyone'slike, Oh, you know, that's the
first thing you think, Oh, myGod, I'm gonna need to get these
these clients in straightaway.
So the first thing that I didwas just tell everyone that I
knew already with the skillsthat I had, basically. I mean,
I'm lucky that I've been broughtup in quite an entrepreneurial
(05:50):
family, my dad's got his ownaccountancy firm. So I just said
to him, I said, Look, any anyclients that you have, that
you're doing financial work for,you know, just just mentioned
that I'm doing this webdevelopment, specifically,
WordPress is what I focused on.
And anyone mentioned that, youknow, that word, then put me in
touch with them. And I'll see ifI can get some, some work done
(06:12):
for them. And I eventually gotmy first client, actually,
through my dad, it was anassociate as of his, so by
telling him that by making themaware of my skills, because he's
got no idea about technology,things like that is very old
school. But just by sharing thatwith him, and it opened up an
opportunity, and then I ended upworking with that client for a
(06:32):
long time after that.
Conor McCarthy (06:34):
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
You never get your first client.
That's really cool. It wasthrough your dad, I haven't
heard that before. I think thethe idea of going to your
network, and you said it, sosimply just telling people what
you do. Here's what I do. If youhear this word, this trigger
word WordPress, send them to me.
Tom Hirst (06:49):
That's exactly what I said.
Conor McCarthy (06:51):
Yeah, that's, that's pretty smart way to do
it. And then so after that firstone, then did you how did you
get the following few clients?
Tom Hirst (06:58):
So as I had that, one, I had a bit of money coming
in. So that allowed me to have abit of, you know, stability, I
guess. And then from that point,I just focus completely on my
personal website. And that'ssomething that I'm a massive
proponent of that I think thateveryone should have a personal
website, I think that it's moreimportant than your CV nowadays,
especially with the way that theworld's going. And it's just
(07:19):
been such a big source of leadsfor me really over the years. I
mean, it's it's literally fueledmy career. Basically, after that
first client, I just focusedcompletely on my personal
website, trying to build landingpages that were more targeted
towards customers, rather thanpeers. So what I mean by that
is, instead of like, you know,showing off my fancy portfolio,
(07:41):
which is pretty hard to do, as adeveloper, anyway, with it all
been code, it's not very visual.
I tried to look into like,landing page marketing, and
copywriting, and things likethat, and really focusing on who
I actually want to attract andwriting messages to them,
thinking about what theirproblems are, and how I can
solve them, and did a little bitof digging in, in the SEO world
as well, looking at keywordsthat I perhaps can compete with.
(08:04):
So yeah, I mean, the keyword Ipicked, right, right back at the
beginning was freelanceWordPress developer. And even
now, if you search for that, I'mprobably still pretty high up
there now. And that's, that wasreally the source of that, you
know, the second, the third, thefourth, the fifth. And then
obviously, you get into likereferrals. And so when you've
had, you know, five clients,they'll refer you to, you know,
(08:27):
people that they know, we're insimilar industries that you can
do similar jobs for and then itall just spiraled from there.
So, yeah, it's interesting howit all pans out. But yeah, the
first couple really are thehardest. And I know it sounds
cliche, but it's cliche, becauseit's quite true.
Conor McCarthy (08:44):
That's fascinating. Obviously, your
work was of a quality thatpeople went, No, you got to hire
Tom, this is this is good stuff.
Tom Hirst (08:51):
Yeah. And I think not just the, I think something else
that stood me in good steadreally was not just the quality
of the work that I wasproducing, but how I've always
tried to be like reallypersonable as well. And I think
that I'm a big believer in thatyou need like differentiators as
a freelancer. If you're going togo out on your own, you need
something else that's going tohelp you to stand out. So you're
not just, you know, providing acommodity service. And I think
(09:12):
that what's always stood me ingood stead is that I've always
tried to be like a reallypersonable developer, because of
the early feedback that I alwaysused to get was, you're not just
going to go away and never talkto us are you? You're going to
actually like, but that's thestereotype, right? And it is
largely true with a stereotypekind of for a reason, I guess.
And I tried to like break themold with that even though I am
(09:34):
fairly introverted. I alwaysthought this is gonna be how I
stand out. I'm not going to gomissing. I'm not going to be
scared of answering the phone.
I'm going to try and be reallypersonal with the way that I
develop these web projects andit really helped me out.
Conor McCarthy (09:49):
That's fascinating. that's a that's a
good listening. There werethere's obviously a fear in it
when hiring a freelancer, youknow, for their perspective,
they're going to give you abunch of money to do an
important job for them. Andyeah, the Hear that you would be
difficult to work with or justdisappear. I love how you
address that upfront. That's agreat way to develop an edge.
And you could do that for anity.
Any freelance service you offer?
Tom Hirst (10:09):
Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's not, I think it
helped me stand out because ofthe development service that was
offering. And there's thestereotype that developers are
like very introverted, and don'treally want to be disturbed and
things like that. They don'twant to open lines of
communication if they don't haveto. So that helped me But yeah,
definitely, like soft skillsthat you can learn them course
you can you know, if you, like,I mean, try and tell a story
(10:31):
about this, I was frightened ofanswering the phone. That's why
I mentioned it earlier. I didn'tlike it at all. I was really
scared to answer the phone. ButI just thought I need to get
over this if I want to have asuccessful career in business.
So I used to force myself tophone calls, I used to arrange
them. I used to purposelyarrange phone calls, and just
check in on clients and thingslike that. And if ever they
(10:51):
called me I'd be I'd answer itstraight away. And you know,
have a conversation. And thatreally helped me build not just
a client base, but confidencetoo.
Conor McCarthy (10:58):
Yeah, that's very smart. I like that
literally, the only way out isthrough, you're really heading
into it. That's really cool.
Just to go back for a second,you mentioned there, like your
personal website, and you dohave a product on gumroad.
That's called the personalwebsite playbook. So you, and
again, this is bored of yourexperience. And you have an
amazing website, I have to say,and I'll link to it in the show
(11:18):
notes. Everyone should check itout. But when it when it gets
into things like SEO, I mean,SEO itself. There's people whose
entire job is SEO. Do you haveany any tips or advice for
people starting out to sellthemselves through SEO
specifically?
Tom Hirst (11:34):
Yeah, I mean, like, I'm not an SEO expert, but I
think that everyone should havean eye on it. If you're selling
services or products online, youneed to be aware of what's going
on. And I think it's a verysmart play. So my advice really
would be to, you know, do somekeyword research in tools like
h refs, and things like that,and just try and try and get an
(11:57):
idea on who you actually wantingto attract and what they might
be typing in. Because you don'thave to go down the rabbit hole
too far. And you can always hiresomeone, you know if it's
something that you want to tryand improve specifically. But I
think as an individual who worksonline, ourselves themselves
online or sells products online,you need to be aware of at
least, you know, five to 10% ofthe basics.
Conor McCarthy (12:20):
And that's what you said there like getting
clear on who you want toattract. I think that's Yeah,
before you even jump into thejungle of SEO, that's the really
important question to ask how,how did you figure out who you
wanted to work with?
Tom Hirst (12:33):
Yeah, good question.
I think I, I knew that my skillsin web development were
specifically in WordPress,that's where they were best. And
WordPress, I mean, and now, it'sabsolutely massive, you know
that there's niches withinniches of WordPress. Now, about
12 years ago, it was kind of,even though it was smaller, it
was still fairly big as anaudience of people to target.
(12:56):
And I realized early on thatwhat I enjoyed doing was just to
modify, you know, like, to notnot to modify themes, but to
create custom sites. So I triedto think, who is the type of
person that wants a custom sitewho, you know, how much money
have they got to spend? What dothey look like? Who do they work
(13:17):
for? Where do they hang out,things like that, you know, all
year positioning kind ofquestions. And so I just like,
and I also kind of took a bit ofexperience from the clients that
I'd worked with already as well.
So the first client that I had,you know, it was it was an
agency who they did all theselling and the marketing for
me, and they just handed work tome. And at the beginning that
suited me, because I didn't havemuch experience in it. I just
(13:39):
wanted to do the coding, Iwanted to improve my skills. And
so yeah, I suppose then thatpositioning really, over time,
just evolved, really, because Ikind of then wanted to start
doing more direct client work, Iwanted to talk to the, you know,
the decision makers, I wanted todo the marketing, I want to do
the selling myself. And so yeah,I think the way the way that I
(14:01):
landed on really want to targetwas I first looked at, you know,
that the CMS in particular thatI was skilled with, I looked at
the work that I was enjoying,and I looked at, you know, who
what kind of clients suited meat that moment in time as well.
So right at the beginning, Iwasn't really keen on doing the
selling how scared of answeringthe phone, so I wasn't going to
be doing much much selling andbut then as the years
(14:24):
progressed, I obviously adaptedthat over time, and to where I
am pretty much now.
Conor McCarthy (14:29):
Right? It's fascinating it's, yeah, to get
learning, learning over time andhoning and and always, always
figuring out as you go, andintegrating that back into your
Who's your sales process or yourmarketing? What I would build
personal websites for myself, Iwould get so bogged down to
them. After a while I get soannoyed doing them. After I
realized I shouldn't be doing myown personal website. That was
(14:50):
my rule of thumb. Did you findit difficult to settle on the
let's say the personal websiteyou have now?
Tom Hirst (15:00):
I think this is probably like the sixth or
seventh iteration over theyears. So I think that being
being a developer, you're alwaysgoing to be tweaking certain
things. And but I mean, thisone's probably been around for
about three years, two or threeyears, perhaps. And so I mean,
it didn't really take me thatmuch time to settle on it. And I
think that, that is a stumblingblock of a lot of people, they
(15:21):
think our personal website, Ineed to code it from scratch, I
need to have a design that's,you know, super fancy, I need to
have this and that, which isjust not true. And, to me, it's
all about the content thatyou're putting out, as opposed
to how it looks. And somethingthat I teach in the personal
website playbook is that it'sbetter to get an MVP out there,
the never launch personalwebsite at all. And that's very
(15:43):
much how my personal websitestarted as well. I just got
something up. That was I thinkit was just a homepage to start
with. And then I expanded itover time with more and more
pages.
Conor McCarthy (15:51):
Hmm. Okay, yeah, that's smart. Yeah, definitely
getting something out, there isalways the always the way to go.
I hope you are enjoying thisepisode and that theres some
actionable and insightful advicethat you can take to your
business. Helping you identifyand create those First 10
Customers is what I do, so ifyou like what you hear on this
podcast and want moreinformation, including a bunch
of free resources on how to findyour first customers and grow
(16:14):
your business, check outfirst10podcast.com or find me on
Twitter @TheFirst10Pod.
Now, you probably hear what I'mabout to say on every podcast
you listen to. And it makes areally big difference to the
show. If you find this podcastin any way useful or enjoyable,
I'd be so grateful if you leftme a review on iTunes, it really
(16:37):
does make a big difference interms of other people
discovering the podcast. Also,if you leave a review, you will
get to see your name and thereview in lights. What I'll do
is I'll design your words andpost them online, taking you on
your project along with it. Iknow it's a pretty sweet deal.
Okay, let's get on with theshow.
The other the other big chunk ofwork that I that I see you
(16:59):
talking about is pricing andI've leaned on on one of your
pricing freelance projects, iswhat you created to talk around
that topic. How did you settleon creating the body of work
around pricing?
Tom Hirst (17:15):
Um, it all started with a with a thread related to
a thread. And he's alwayssomething that I've been super
fascinated in pricing like howmuch this thing's worth? How
much will someone pay for thisand, you know, open up like the
value of discussion and thingslike that. So it's always been
something that I've beenfascinated with from a young age
really, obviously, I've had alot of experience with pricing
(17:36):
projects in the freelancecareer, I've done a lot of
reading on the subject as well.
And yeah, I just tweeted one dayat a massive tweet thread, just
like any other day, really andit just went absolutely crazy.
And I think it's at the minute,it's got something like 3.5
million impressions. So threeand a half million people saw
(17:59):
the message, the body of work, Iguess, the beginnings of the
body of work for what laterbecame the book. And I just, I
just thought, you know, peoplelike this, there's obviously
value here, people are reallyinterested in hearing about my
experience of this. So I decidedto write a book in 30 days, and
it came pretty easy to behonest, because it was all it
was all top of mind. You know,it was all already there. I had
(18:22):
the structure of the book fromthe thread. And I could see what
resonated more than what didn't.
And yeah, I just I just wrote itout and made the book, put it on
gumroad. And yeah, it's donepretty well.
Conor McCarthy (18:35):
Yeah, I still see it being passed around on
Twitter, oh, someone asked forpricing questions like, go check
out Tom's book, go download it.
Again, like that. That's a greatexample of a good MVP, you put
out a Twitter thread of justthoughts. And it really
resonated three and a halfmillion impressions. It's pretty
incredible. When you when itcomes to pricing, and I know
this struggle myself being afreelancer and I talk to other
(18:57):
freelancers all the time aboutit. What's the main thing that
people get wrong when they thinkabout pricing their freelance
services?
Tom Hirst (19:06):
I think the the first thing that they get wrong is
they stop marketing when they'rebusy. And that might sound like
it's a marketing question andnot a pricing question. But it's
not like pricing is so mucheasier when you've got a full
pipeline. And I think that thatis the number one problem that
freelancers have with pricing,because then they feel like they
have to give an ultracompetitive price just to keep
(19:30):
the lights on. So I always saythat Pricing starts with
marketing and keeping you know,the pipeline full because it's
easier to walk away from aproject when you've got you
know, a month runway in thebank. Yeah, yeah, that's why I
always try to teach you know,keep marketing yourself even
when you're on a project,because as soon as that pipeline
(19:53):
dries up, you need to startthinking this price, you start
automatically like edging lowerand lower and lower. With what
you you know, you're willing toquote.
Conor McCarthy (20:02):
That's very smart. I'd never actually
thought of that through thatlens before pricing is, I
suppose to a lot of people,myself included, it's just a
number. And you're you're tryingto figure out well, what's the
value versus cost versus time?
Blah, blah, all these thingssuddenly gets very complicated.
But yeah, to start withmarketing, that's, that's a
really smart way to go. How doyou? Are there any ways that you
(20:22):
consistently market yourself?
Tom Hirst (20:25):
Marketing myself now?
Do you mean? Yeah, well,personal website number one is
like the, the ultimate leadmagnet for me. I have like three
or four specific landing pagesthat bring in at least one or
two leads every day, so. So it'spretty it's pretty regular now.
And I think, I mean, obviously,I've kind of gone a different
(20:47):
way with how I use Twitter. I'mkind of trying to pivot on my
professional career a littlebit, you know, going into the
teaching side of things,educational, authorship,
mentorship, and things likethat. But I think that there's a
definite avenue for freelancersto really build strong
connections on Twitter,especially. I think that it's a
(21:08):
super overpowered platform rightnow. You know, like, look at the
virility potential of you know,any thread that you share. It's,
it's like someone on Twitteryesterday, I think it was jack
butcher. I don't know if youknow him. I think he retweeted
someone else who said, What doyou say now that every tweets
like a lottery ticket? And Ithink it's just about getting
(21:30):
the right message to resonate.
And I think that, yeah, eveneven for freelancers wanting to
sell services they supply, youknow, and it's not just about
tweeting out and not expectinganything back, it's about using
it for for its purpose, beingsocial. So you know, connecting
with people on DMS, even peoplewho you might see as your
(21:50):
competitors, this is one thingthat I always try and say like
don't, you don't have to seeyour competitors as, as your
enemies, you know, you canfollow another freelance
WordPress developer and hit themup in dm, see how they're doing,
you know, build a bit ofrapport. And then who's going to
be the first person that theycome to when they have an
overflow project? It's socialmedia, I think is a specialist
(22:12):
Twitter. It's such a powerfultool for marketing.
Conor McCarthy (22:14):
Yes, that's, that's really smart. Again,
another another great idea oflooking at your, your
competition aren't enemies.
That's great. Like, when peoplefirst decide to market their
freelance services, on socialmedia, I think there's an
immediate flood of, there's somany How do I do it? You know,
it's, it's, all of a sudden, theidea becomes too big. How would
(22:37):
someone begin? Or if someone ison social media already? How
would they actuallystrategically try and grow an
audience on any platform? I knowTwitter is yours, but you can
speak to any platform.
Tom Hirst (22:49):
I think, first of all, you've got to get over the
fear of sharing, or what peoplewill think, like, your school
friends, not not your customersanyway. So you just need to get
over what they're gonna think,you know, my mates, call me the
guru now because of what Itweet, and like, I'm alright
with that, you know, I mean,that's fine. Yeah, they're not
(23:10):
buying anything else from me,sir. Fair enough. You know, I
mean, I'll take that on thechin. But then what that's
allowed me to do is break downthat mental barrier of being
scared to share, I just, I justdon't care. Like, that's the
first thing that you need to do.
If you're going to be strategicabout marketing yourself on
social media, or trying to buildany kind of credibility
anywhere, really, I guess, youjust got to get over the fear of
(23:31):
sharing your own ideas. Sothat's number one. And then in
terms of like actionable tips,you've just got to be I don't
know, this is really cliche,again, but consistent. You've
just got to be relentless,you've got to show up for
people, you've got to be thatsource of knowledge, you've got
to be that value provider over along period of time. And I think
(23:53):
that, in the beginning, it'sreally useful to try and niche
down a little bit. So try andspeak from you know, your own
earned wisdom about what youknow, best stuff that comes
naturally to you. So obviously,for me, that was like
freelancing price in business,in small business marketing,
things like that, you know, it'sstuff that I've been doing over
(24:16):
the last decade anyway. So Ialways used to try and stay in
that box at that point. But thenyou will get to a, I think that
people always say, Oh, you needto be like that forever, which
I'm not a believer in that Ithink that your personal brand
can evolve over time, you know,because you're doing a lot of
discovering about yourself aswell, when you share when you
share your ideas, you refinethem yourself, and you decide to
take, you know, left or right atcertain points and your personal
(24:40):
brand can, you know, go alongwith that. And so I think after
a point of just, you know, beingin the same room for a year or
so, I think that people do startto care about your wider views.
And then you're more free thanyou know, the shackles are kinda
off really to share a bit morebroadly about all the things
that are interesting you. Soyeah, that's where I'd start for
(25:01):
sure.
Conor McCarthy (25:02):
That's great.
Yeah. And I love how it's allkind of feeds into this idea of
the personal brand and thepersonal brand again, as well.
Another thing that people buy,hear about and go, Oh, that's, I
need to do huge brandingexercise. But like, we've kind
of hinted at a few things likehaving a really good personal
website is a great thing you cando to enhance your personal
brand or being being consistent,and committed to a to a
(25:25):
platform, whatever, whatever youdecide, is there anything else
that you would say aroundpersonal branding, that would
really help?
Tom Hirst (25:33):
I think you've just got to, don't lie, don't lie to
yourself, and don't lie to otherpeople. Because I think it shows
I mean, just to recite apersonal experience, like I'm
kind of entering a world now,you know, creating books and
courses and things like that.
And I think that there's a bitof a stigma sometimes around
(25:54):
around that kind of thing. Andpeople who may, you know, share
figures that are not accurate?
Or they might, you know, saycertain things that you're
thinking, Well, you know, you'reonly you're only 12 years old,
you can't have had fivebusinesses, you know, I mean,
it's, I think there's, there's abit of a stigma around around
the world. So I think that ifyou, you need to come across as
(26:16):
an authentic, credible person,when you're trying to build some
kind of personal brand and Ithink that people have to
understand that what you'resaying is coming from earned
wisdom, it's not just somethingthat you've just seen on Twitter
and regurgitated. I think thatthat's really important. And if
you can try and get that across,that's really beneficial. And I
(26:37):
think that, I think that I mean,a lot of people said that to me
that it can, that's how I comeacross. And I'm really proud of
that, you know, the authenticitythat I've managed to create in
my personal brand. So that'ssomething that I take really
seriously and I'm really proudof. And I think as well, I don't
be if you're starting to build apersonal brand, don't be put off
if you don't have earned wisdom,like what I just said, you know,
(26:58):
if you don't have a lot ofexperience in the tank, I think
that it's equally as valuable toshare what you're doing right
now. Because sometimes the besttime to teach something is when
you're learning it yourself. Soa lot of freelancers have come
to me before and said, Well, howI'm only just learning react or
WordPress, or whatever it is,how can I, you know, build a
level of credibility for mypersonal brand. And I always
(27:20):
say, well document everythingthat you're doing now share it,
tell people, because there'll betons of people who want to
follow the same path as you. Youknow, and you probably know,
you're in the guts of learningreact right now, you might know
more than what I know about acertain thing, because that's
what you've just studied. So youknow that there's an avenue for
everyone, whether the beginningof your career, 10 years, in 20
years in whatever to build astrong personal brand in mind.
Conor McCarthy (27:43):
I love that.
Yeah, just sharing what you'regoing through. Because Yeah, I
think we all kind of sit behindour laptops or just scroll away,
but there's so much value in thejourneys, that we're each on to
develop some kind of mastery orto, to work on our craft of what
we're doing. So yeah, like that.
Yeah, to share, and be braveabout sharing. So yeah, so
you're getting into what you'vedone so much writing, and you've
(28:05):
released the books on gumroad,etc. Are there any books that
you have re read or that youhighly recommend when it comes
to freelancing or marketing oranything to do with your craft?
Tom Hirst (28:18):
I mean, the best book or the book that most changed,
slash solidified, my view onfreelancing was Hourly Billing
is Nuts by Jonathan Stark. Andthat's the book about pricing.
And it's essentially Jonathan'sexperience Manifesto, a guide,
about moving away from hourlybilling, really. And that's
(28:40):
something that when I read thatit really struck a chord with
me, I think it must have beenabout six, seven years ago that
I read it, or maybe a little bitless, I can't remember when he
released it. But it really kindof solidified solidified what I
discovered. And the fact thatlike hourly billing really is a
bit of a bit of a trap, really,in terms of creating a stress
(29:02):
free freelance life and buildingup, you know, relationship,
relationships based on trust andthings like that. So yeah, that
was that's the one I alwaysrecommend if someone's looking
for a place to startfreelancing.
Conor McCarthy (29:13):
Okay, good one.
Yes, I'll definitely add that tothe show notes. There's, there's
just one more question I'veasked you. And that's, I asked
this of all my guests like, whatpractical advice would you give
to someone just starting out tofind their first 10 customers?
Tom Hirst (29:27):
First 10 customers, start sharing what you're doing.
start sharing what you know,straightaway. Tell, tell, tell
everyone that you know whatskills you've got. Tell them
what you're working on. Do itlocally, you know, with your
friends and family. You neverknow where you might find a
client. Do it on social media,do it on your personal website,
just share and documenteverything. And it's like, it's
(29:48):
just an opportunity magnet.
Basically, that works for you
Conor McCarthy (29:51):
Like that.
There's, there's a lot of goodwhile you sleep.
quotes that come out of thispodcast. I'm thankful for that.
Tom, you're very very good todedicate some of your time on a
busy day to come on thispodcast. There's a ton in there
that I know my audiencefreelancers will love and
obviously, in the show notes, Ihighly, highly, highly recommend
(30:11):
that everyone check out yourpersonal website, because it's
brilliant. And it's you reallydo walk the walk and and your
Twitter feed is just constant.
You are so consistent in whatyou do. And like, I feel with
your Twitter now that you'vekind of gotten into this flow
not not that I knew you back inthe day, but you're in this flow
where like everything you putout I will definitely read
(30:33):
because I know there's two orthree layers of thinking going
on to it. So yeah, I highlyrecommend people check those
out.
Tom Hirst (30:40):
Cheers, thanks Conor.
You don't have to see competitors as your enemies. You
can follow another freelanceWordPress developer and hit them
up in DM's, see how they'redoing, you know, build a bit of
rapport. And then who's going tobe the first person that they
come to when they have anoverflow project. Social media,
I think is a specialist Twitter.
It's such a powerful tool formarketing stuff.
Conor McCarthy (00:20):
Hello, listeners, and welcome back to
the first 10 podcast. I'm yourhost Conor McCarthy. And in each
episode, I interview BusinessBuilders on their first 10
customers, who they were, howthey found them, how they talked
to them, and what effect theyhad on their business so that
you can learn what worked andwhat didn't.
When I'm not recording podcasts,I help Business Builders find
(00:40):
their first 10 customers andgrow their businesses. I do that
with one to one coaching, and aseries of online workshops.
Please do check out my websiteConormccarthy.me for more
details and sign up to myregular newsletter. I hope you
My guest today is Tom Hirst. AndI'll be totally honest, when I
decided who I wanted to inviteonto this season of freelancers,
(01:01):
Tom's name sprang immediately tomind. But simultaneously I
thought, Tom is one of the mostprolific people I follow on
Twitter and Twitter isn't evenis day job. He's a WordPress
eveloper. So he'll probably sayo, but thankfully for us, Tom
aid, yes, this episode isacked full of simple and
ctionable things that you cano to start or improve your
(01:23):
reelancing career. Tom reallys that freelancers freelancer,
e's actually written a numberf books, to help us all get
etter clients, to improve ourreelancing craft, and to take
ome of the mysticism out ofhat success as a freelancer
eally looks like. A few thingse talked about in this episode
nclude getting over the fear ofharing in public, we talk about
nderstanding how yourompetitors aren't necessarily
(01:45):
our enemies. We talk an awfulot about one of Tom's
pecialities and that's prcing freelance projects and he
ctually has a book of the samname. Also, check out the sho
notes for a link to Tom's ebok that's called 10 steps to bec
ming a better freelancer, it'actually free on Gumroad. It
s stuffed full of value. I'm amaed it's free on there. I've act
ally referenced it a good fewtimes, on doing some my fre
(02:08):
lance work, but if you want toay Tom a little something for
it, you definitely won't reget it. This is the last show of
his season. And I'm really, realy excited that I can end thi
with Tom's interview. He is a mst follow on Twitter. The boo
s and courses that he prouces are some of the most hig
signal, low noise resources outthere for freelancers. So ple
(02:29):
se do enjoy the show. with TomHirst.
enjoy the show.
Tom Hirst, first of all, thankyou very, very much for taking
the time to be with us heretoday.
Tom Hirst (02:40):
No worries. Thanks for having me, Conor.
Conor McCarthy (02:42):
Do you wanna tell us a little bit about what
you do before we get into thethe time travel machine and go
back to your first 10 customers.
Tom Hirst (02:48):
Yeah, sure. Um, so I'm a longtime freelance web
developer. I've been programmingfor around 16 years now and
freelancing for around 12. Inthe last couple of years, I've
started going more into creatingthings, products, in particular,
to help other freelancers getahead in their careers too and
(03:09):
just experimenting more really,with social media writing, and
all that. So yeah, got it got alot of stuff going on.
Conor McCarthy (03:15):
Yeah, it's very, I've said at the top of the
show, since I've discovered youon Twitter, I've read like
everything you've posted, youare prolific, but also the the
stuff you put out on Twitter andgumroad. And all your projects
they are, they're really, reallyvaluable because they're they're
so true, I guess is one wordthat will come to mind. You like
(03:37):
the the lessons and the adviceyou share are born of things
that you've gone throughyourself. So it's very, it's
very real when you talk aboutthese things.
Tom Hirst (03:48):
Yeah, I try and be like fairly blunt and raw about
everything that I share, becauseI think that that's what
resonates best, and it's themost helpful to people.
Conor McCarthy (03:55):
Yes, absolutely.
So, so going back to thefreelancer for 12 years, and
you've been developing for 16years. So when you first started
freelancing, why did you jumpinto freelancing?
Tom Hirst (04:06):
Um, I mean, there's a little story about about this
decision, really. So I'll tellthat real quick. So I left
University at age 22. And I hadthese programming skills. So I
just applied for a job, likewhat you would you know,
typically the path that youwould go down, you know, leave
education, apply for a job,learn, you know, the ropes and
things like that, and thenperhaps go freelance if it's
(04:28):
suited later on. But anyway, Iapplied for this job at a local
college doing just it was goingto be like a web development
role as a junior under someoneelse. And I just despised the
whole process. I can remembersitting in the waiting room
waiting for my interview, andI'm thinking, I just don't like
this environment. I don't likethe hierarchy. I don't like how
(04:50):
it makes me feel. I don't likebeing dictated to, I guess
really, I just, I just kind ofhad this epiphany that I can't
work for a boss. And I had thatjust sat in that room. Right.
And But anyway, I went throughthe, I went through the
interview process, and I gotfeedback that came a close
second. And it probably toldthat my heart wasn't really in
(05:12):
it. And I thought, well, whatshould I do now with this
discovery, this learning aboutmyself? And I thought, let's go
freelance. Let's just give it ago and see how far it'll take
me. And, yeah, 12 years later,still, yeah.
Conor McCarthy (05:25):
Still here. So.
So how did you get your veryfirst client?
Tom Hirst (05:28):
So that after I'd had this realization that I was
going to go freelance, I had toobviously scramble for clients?
I guess? That's what everyone'slike, Oh, you know, that's the
first thing you think, Oh, myGod, I'm gonna need to get these
these clients in straightaway.
So the first thing that I didwas just tell everyone that I
knew already with the skillsthat I had, basically. I mean,
I'm lucky that I've been broughtup in quite an entrepreneurial
(05:50):
family, my dad's got his ownaccountancy firm. So I just said
to him, I said, Look, any anyclients that you have, that
you're doing financial work for,you know, just just mentioned
that I'm doing this webdevelopment, specifically,
WordPress is what I focused on.
And anyone mentioned that, youknow, that word, then put me in
touch with them. And I'll see ifI can get some, some work done
(06:12):
for them. And I eventually gotmy first client, actually,
through my dad, it was anassociate as of his, so by
telling him that by making themaware of my skills, because he's
got no idea about technology,things like that is very old
school. But just by sharing thatwith him, and it opened up an
opportunity, and then I ended upworking with that client for a
(06:32):
long time after that.
Conor McCarthy (06:34):
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
You never get your first client.
That's really cool. It wasthrough your dad, I haven't
heard that before. I think thethe idea of going to your
network, and you said it, sosimply just telling people what
you do. Here's what I do. If youhear this word, this trigger
word WordPress, send them to me.
Tom Hirst (06:49):
That's exactly what I said.
Conor McCarthy (06:51):
Yeah, that's, that's pretty smart way to do
it. And then so after that firstone, then did you how did you
get the following few clients?
Tom Hirst (06:58):
So as I had that, one, I had a bit of money coming
in. So that allowed me to have abit of, you know, stability, I
guess. And then from that point,I just focus completely on my
personal website. And that'ssomething that I'm a massive
proponent of that I think thateveryone should have a personal
website, I think that it's moreimportant than your CV nowadays,
especially with the way that theworld's going. And it's just
(07:19):
been such a big source of leadsfor me really over the years. I
mean, it's it's literally fueledmy career. Basically, after that
first client, I just focusedcompletely on my personal
website, trying to build landingpages that were more targeted
towards customers, rather thanpeers. So what I mean by that
is, instead of like, you know,showing off my fancy portfolio,
(07:41):
which is pretty hard to do, as adeveloper, anyway, with it all
been code, it's not very visual.
I tried to look into like,landing page marketing, and
copywriting, and things likethat, and really focusing on who
I actually want to attract andwriting messages to them,
thinking about what theirproblems are, and how I can
solve them, and did a little bitof digging in, in the SEO world
as well, looking at keywordsthat I perhaps can compete with.
(08:04):
So yeah, I mean, the keyword Ipicked, right, right back at the
beginning was freelanceWordPress developer. And even
now, if you search for that, I'mprobably still pretty high up
there now. And that's, that wasreally the source of that, you
know, the second, the third, thefourth, the fifth. And then
obviously, you get into likereferrals. And so when you've
had, you know, five clients,they'll refer you to, you know,
(08:27):
people that they know, we're insimilar industries that you can
do similar jobs for and then itall just spiraled from there.
So, yeah, it's interesting howit all pans out. But yeah, the
first couple really are thehardest. And I know it sounds
cliche, but it's cliche, becauseit's quite true.
Conor McCarthy (08:44):
That's fascinating. Obviously, your
work was of a quality thatpeople went, No, you got to hire
Tom, this is this is good stuff.
Tom Hirst (08:51):
Yeah. And I think not just the, I think something else
that stood me in good steadreally was not just the quality
of the work that I wasproducing, but how I've always
tried to be like reallypersonable as well. And I think
that I'm a big believer in thatyou need like differentiators as
a freelancer. If you're going togo out on your own, you need
something else that's going tohelp you to stand out. So you're
not just, you know, providing acommodity service. And I think
(09:12):
that what's always stood me ingood stead is that I've always
tried to be like a reallypersonable developer, because of
the early feedback that I alwaysused to get was, you're not just
going to go away and never talkto us are you? You're going to
actually like, but that's thestereotype, right? And it is
largely true with a stereotypekind of for a reason, I guess.
And I tried to like break themold with that even though I am
(09:34):
fairly introverted. I alwaysthought this is gonna be how I
stand out. I'm not going to gomissing. I'm not going to be
scared of answering the phone.
I'm going to try and be reallypersonal with the way that I
develop these web projects andit really helped me out.
Conor McCarthy (09:49):
That's fascinating. that's a that's a
good listening. There werethere's obviously a fear in it
when hiring a freelancer, youknow, for their perspective,
they're going to give you abunch of money to do an
important job for them. Andyeah, the Hear that you would be
difficult to work with or justdisappear. I love how you
address that upfront. That's agreat way to develop an edge.
And you could do that for anity.
Any freelance service you offer?
Tom Hirst (10:09):
Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's not, I think it
helped me stand out because ofthe development service that was
offering. And there's thestereotype that developers are
like very introverted, and don'treally want to be disturbed and
things like that. They don'twant to open lines of
communication if they don't haveto. So that helped me But yeah,
definitely, like soft skillsthat you can learn them course
you can you know, if you, like,I mean, try and tell a story
(10:31):
about this, I was frightened ofanswering the phone. That's why
I mentioned it earlier. I didn'tlike it at all. I was really
scared to answer the phone. ButI just thought I need to get
over this if I want to have asuccessful career in business.
So I used to force myself tophone calls, I used to arrange
them. I used to purposelyarrange phone calls, and just
check in on clients and thingslike that. And if ever they
(10:51):
called me I'd be I'd answer itstraight away. And you know,
have a conversation. And thatreally helped me build not just
a client base, but confidencetoo.
Conor McCarthy (10:58):
Yeah, that's very smart. I like that
literally, the only way out isthrough, you're really heading
into it. That's really cool.
Just to go back for a second,you mentioned there, like your
personal website, and you dohave a product on gumroad.
That's called the personalwebsite playbook. So you, and
again, this is bored of yourexperience. And you have an
amazing website, I have to say,and I'll link to it in the show
(11:18):
notes. Everyone should check itout. But when it when it gets
into things like SEO, I mean,SEO itself. There's people whose
entire job is SEO. Do you haveany any tips or advice for
people starting out to sellthemselves through SEO
specifically?
Tom Hirst (11:34):
Yeah, I mean, like, I'm not an SEO expert, but I
think that everyone should havean eye on it. If you're selling
services or products online, youneed to be aware of what's going
on. And I think it's a verysmart play. So my advice really
would be to, you know, do somekeyword research in tools like
h refs, and things like that,and just try and try and get an
(11:57):
idea on who you actually wantingto attract and what they might
be typing in. Because you don'thave to go down the rabbit hole
too far. And you can always hiresomeone, you know if it's
something that you want to tryand improve specifically. But I
think as an individual who worksonline, ourselves themselves
online or sells products online,you need to be aware of at
least, you know, five to 10% ofthe basics.
Conor McCarthy (12:20):
And that's what you said there like getting
clear on who you want toattract. I think that's Yeah,
before you even jump into thejungle of SEO, that's the really
important question to ask how,how did you figure out who you
wanted to work with?
Tom Hirst (12:33):
Yeah, good question.
I think I, I knew that my skillsin web development were
specifically in WordPress,that's where they were best. And
WordPress, I mean, and now, it'sabsolutely massive, you know
that there's niches withinniches of WordPress. Now, about
12 years ago, it was kind of,even though it was smaller, it
was still fairly big as anaudience of people to target.
(12:56):
And I realized early on thatwhat I enjoyed doing was just to
modify, you know, like, to notnot to modify themes, but to
create custom sites. So I triedto think, who is the type of
person that wants a custom sitewho, you know, how much money
have they got to spend? What dothey look like? Who do they work
(13:17):
for? Where do they hang out,things like that, you know, all
year positioning kind ofquestions. And so I just like,
and I also kind of took a bit ofexperience from the clients that
I'd worked with already as well.
So the first client that I had,you know, it was it was an
agency who they did all theselling and the marketing for
me, and they just handed work tome. And at the beginning that
suited me, because I didn't havemuch experience in it. I just
(13:39):
wanted to do the coding, Iwanted to improve my skills. And
so yeah, I suppose then thatpositioning really, over time,
just evolved, really, because Ikind of then wanted to start
doing more direct client work, Iwanted to talk to the, you know,
the decision makers, I wanted todo the marketing, I want to do
the selling myself. And so yeah,I think the way the way that I
(14:01):
landed on really want to targetwas I first looked at, you know,
that the CMS in particular thatI was skilled with, I looked at
the work that I was enjoying,and I looked at, you know, who
what kind of clients suited meat that moment in time as well.
So right at the beginning, Iwasn't really keen on doing the
selling how scared of answeringthe phone, so I wasn't going to
be doing much much selling andbut then as the years
(14:24):
progressed, I obviously adaptedthat over time, and to where I
am pretty much now.
Conor McCarthy (14:29):
Right? It's fascinating it's, yeah, to get
learning, learning over time andhoning and and always, always
figuring out as you go, andintegrating that back into your
Who's your sales process or yourmarketing? What I would build
personal websites for myself, Iwould get so bogged down to
them. After a while I get soannoyed doing them. After I
realized I shouldn't be doing myown personal website. That was
(14:50):
my rule of thumb. Did you findit difficult to settle on the
let's say the personal websiteyou have now?
Tom Hirst (15:00):
I think this is probably like the sixth or
seventh iteration over theyears. So I think that being
being a developer, you're alwaysgoing to be tweaking certain
things. And but I mean, thisone's probably been around for
about three years, two or threeyears, perhaps. And so I mean,
it didn't really take me thatmuch time to settle on it. And I
think that, that is a stumblingblock of a lot of people, they
(15:21):
think our personal website, Ineed to code it from scratch, I
need to have a design that's,you know, super fancy, I need to
have this and that, which isjust not true. And, to me, it's
all about the content thatyou're putting out, as opposed
to how it looks. And somethingthat I teach in the personal
website playbook is that it'sbetter to get an MVP out there,
the never launch personalwebsite at all. And that's very
(15:43):
much how my personal websitestarted as well. I just got
something up. That was I thinkit was just a homepage to start
with. And then I expanded itover time with more and more
pages.
Conor McCarthy (15:51):
Hmm. Okay, yeah, that's smart. Yeah, definitely
getting something out, there isalways the always the way to go.
I hope you are enjoying thisepisode and that theres some
actionable and insightful advicethat you can take to your
business. Helping you identifyand create those First 10
Customers is what I do, so ifyou like what you hear on this
podcast and want moreinformation, including a bunch
of free resources on how to findyour first customers and grow
(16:14):
your business, check outfirst10podcast.com or find me on
Twitter @TheFirst10Pod.
Now, you probably hear what I'mabout to say on every podcast
you listen to. And it makes areally big difference to the
show. If you find this podcastin any way useful or enjoyable,
I'd be so grateful if you leftme a review on iTunes, it really
(16:37):
does make a big difference interms of other people
discovering the podcast. Also,if you leave a review, you will
get to see your name and thereview in lights. What I'll do
is I'll design your words andpost them online, taking you on
your project along with it. Iknow it's a pretty sweet deal.
Okay, let's get on with theshow.
The other the other big chunk ofwork that I that I see you
(16:59):
talking about is pricing andI've leaned on on one of your
pricing freelance projects, iswhat you created to talk around
that topic. How did you settleon creating the body of work
around pricing?
Tom Hirst (17:15):
Um, it all started with a with a thread related to
a thread. And he's alwayssomething that I've been super
fascinated in pricing like howmuch this thing's worth? How
much will someone pay for thisand, you know, open up like the
value of discussion and thingslike that. So it's always been
something that I've beenfascinated with from a young age
really, obviously, I've had alot of experience with pricing
(17:36):
projects in the freelancecareer, I've done a lot of
reading on the subject as well.
And yeah, I just tweeted one dayat a massive tweet thread, just
like any other day, really andit just went absolutely crazy.
And I think it's at the minute,it's got something like 3.5
million impressions. So threeand a half million people saw
(17:59):
the message, the body of work, Iguess, the beginnings of the
body of work for what laterbecame the book. And I just, I
just thought, you know, peoplelike this, there's obviously
value here, people are reallyinterested in hearing about my
experience of this. So I decidedto write a book in 30 days, and
it came pretty easy to behonest, because it was all it
was all top of mind. You know,it was all already there. I had
(18:22):
the structure of the book fromthe thread. And I could see what
resonated more than what didn't.
And yeah, I just I just wrote itout and made the book, put it on
gumroad. And yeah, it's donepretty well.
Conor McCarthy (18:35):
Yeah, I still see it being passed around on
Twitter, oh, someone asked forpricing questions like, go check
out Tom's book, go download it.
Again, like that. That's a greatexample of a good MVP, you put
out a Twitter thread of justthoughts. And it really
resonated three and a halfmillion impressions. It's pretty
incredible. When you when itcomes to pricing, and I know
this struggle myself being afreelancer and I talk to other
(18:57):
freelancers all the time aboutit. What's the main thing that
people get wrong when they thinkabout pricing their freelance
services?
Tom Hirst (19:06):
I think the the first thing that they get wrong is
they stop marketing when they'rebusy. And that might sound like
it's a marketing question andnot a pricing question. But it's
not like pricing is so mucheasier when you've got a full
pipeline. And I think that thatis the number one problem that
freelancers have with pricing,because then they feel like they
have to give an ultracompetitive price just to keep
(19:30):
the lights on. So I always saythat Pricing starts with
marketing and keeping you know,the pipeline full because it's
easier to walk away from aproject when you've got you
know, a month runway in thebank. Yeah, yeah, that's why I
always try to teach you know,keep marketing yourself even
when you're on a project,because as soon as that pipeline
(19:53):
dries up, you need to startthinking this price, you start
automatically like edging lowerand lower and lower. With what
you you know, you're willing toquote.
Conor McCarthy (20:02):
That's very smart. I'd never actually
thought of that through thatlens before pricing is, I
suppose to a lot of people,myself included, it's just a
number. And you're you're tryingto figure out well, what's the
value versus cost versus time?
Blah, blah, all these thingssuddenly gets very complicated.
But yeah, to start withmarketing, that's, that's a
really smart way to go. How doyou? Are there any ways that you
(20:22):
consistently market yourself?
Tom Hirst (20:25):
Marketing myself now?
Do you mean? Yeah, well,personal website number one is
like the, the ultimate leadmagnet for me. I have like three
or four specific landing pagesthat bring in at least one or
two leads every day, so. So it'spretty it's pretty regular now.
And I think, I mean, obviously,I've kind of gone a different
(20:47):
way with how I use Twitter. I'mkind of trying to pivot on my
professional career a littlebit, you know, going into the
teaching side of things,educational, authorship,
mentorship, and things likethat. But I think that there's a
definite avenue for freelancersto really build strong
connections on Twitter,especially. I think that it's a
(21:08):
super overpowered platform rightnow. You know, like, look at the
virility potential of you know,any thread that you share. It's,
it's like someone on Twitteryesterday, I think it was jack
butcher. I don't know if youknow him. I think he retweeted
someone else who said, What doyou say now that every tweets
like a lottery ticket? And Ithink it's just about getting
(21:30):
the right message to resonate.
And I think that, yeah, eveneven for freelancers wanting to
sell services they supply, youknow, and it's not just about
tweeting out and not expectinganything back, it's about using
it for for its purpose, beingsocial. So you know, connecting
with people on DMS, even peoplewho you might see as your
(21:50):
competitors, this is one thingthat I always try and say like
don't, you don't have to seeyour competitors as, as your
enemies, you know, you canfollow another freelance
WordPress developer and hit themup in dm, see how they're doing,
you know, build a bit ofrapport. And then who's going to
be the first person that theycome to when they have an
overflow project? It's socialmedia, I think is a specialist
(22:12):
Twitter. It's such a powerfultool for marketing.
Conor McCarthy (22:14):
Yes, that's, that's really smart. Again,
another another great idea oflooking at your, your
competition aren't enemies.
That's great. Like, when peoplefirst decide to market their
freelance services, on socialmedia, I think there's an
immediate flood of, there's somany How do I do it? You know,
it's, it's, all of a sudden, theidea becomes too big. How would
(22:37):
someone begin? Or if someone ison social media already? How
would they actuallystrategically try and grow an
audience on any platform? I knowTwitter is yours, but you can
speak to any platform.
Tom Hirst (22:49):
I think, first of all, you've got to get over the
fear of sharing, or what peoplewill think, like, your school
friends, not not your customersanyway. So you just need to get
over what they're gonna think,you know, my mates, call me the
guru now because of what Itweet, and like, I'm alright
with that, you know, I mean,that's fine. Yeah, they're not
(23:10):
buying anything else from me,sir. Fair enough. You know, I
mean, I'll take that on thechin. But then what that's
allowed me to do is break downthat mental barrier of being
scared to share, I just, I justdon't care. Like, that's the
first thing that you need to do.
If you're going to be strategicabout marketing yourself on
social media, or trying to buildany kind of credibility
anywhere, really, I guess, youjust got to get over the fear of
(23:31):
sharing your own ideas. Sothat's number one. And then in
terms of like actionable tips,you've just got to be I don't
know, this is really cliche,again, but consistent. You've
just got to be relentless,you've got to show up for
people, you've got to be thatsource of knowledge, you've got
to be that value provider over along period of time. And I think
(23:53):
that, in the beginning, it'sreally useful to try and niche
down a little bit. So try andspeak from you know, your own
earned wisdom about what youknow, best stuff that comes
naturally to you. So obviously,for me, that was like
freelancing price in business,in small business marketing,
things like that, you know, it'sstuff that I've been doing over
(24:16):
the last decade anyway. So Ialways used to try and stay in
that box at that point. But thenyou will get to a, I think that
people always say, Oh, you needto be like that forever, which
I'm not a believer in that Ithink that your personal brand
can evolve over time, you know,because you're doing a lot of
discovering about yourself aswell, when you share when you
share your ideas, you refinethem yourself, and you decide to
take, you know, left or right atcertain points and your personal
(24:40):
brand can, you know, go alongwith that. And so I think after
a point of just, you know, beingin the same room for a year or
so, I think that people do startto care about your wider views.
And then you're more free thanyou know, the shackles are kinda
off really to share a bit morebroadly about all the things
that are interesting you. Soyeah, that's where I'd start for
(25:01):
sure.
Conor McCarthy (25:02):
That's great.
Yeah. And I love how it's allkind of feeds into this idea of
the personal brand and thepersonal brand again, as well.
Another thing that people buy,hear about and go, Oh, that's, I
need to do huge brandingexercise. But like, we've kind
of hinted at a few things likehaving a really good personal
website is a great thing you cando to enhance your personal
brand or being being consistent,and committed to a to a
(25:25):
platform, whatever, whatever youdecide, is there anything else
that you would say aroundpersonal branding, that would
really help?
Tom Hirst (25:33):
I think you've just got to, don't lie, don't lie to
yourself, and don't lie to otherpeople. Because I think it shows
I mean, just to recite apersonal experience, like I'm
kind of entering a world now,you know, creating books and
courses and things like that.
And I think that there's a bitof a stigma sometimes around
(25:54):
around that kind of thing. Andpeople who may, you know, share
figures that are not accurate?
Or they might, you know, saycertain things that you're
thinking, Well, you know, you'reonly you're only 12 years old,
you can't have had fivebusinesses, you know, I mean,
it's, I think there's, there's abit of a stigma around around
the world. So I think that ifyou, you need to come across as
(26:16):
an authentic, credible person,when you're trying to build some
kind of personal brand and Ithink that people have to
understand that what you'resaying is coming from earned
wisdom, it's not just somethingthat you've just seen on Twitter
and regurgitated. I think thatthat's really important. And if
you can try and get that across,that's really beneficial. And I
(26:37):
think that, I think that I mean,a lot of people said that to me
that it can, that's how I comeacross. And I'm really proud of
that, you know, the authenticitythat I've managed to create in
my personal brand. So that'ssomething that I take really
seriously and I'm really proudof. And I think as well, I don't
be if you're starting to build apersonal brand, don't be put off
if you don't have earned wisdom,like what I just said, you know,
(26:58):
if you don't have a lot ofexperience in the tank, I think
that it's equally as valuable toshare what you're doing right
now. Because sometimes the besttime to teach something is when
you're learning it yourself. Soa lot of freelancers have come
to me before and said, Well, howI'm only just learning react or
WordPress, or whatever it is,how can I, you know, build a
level of credibility for mypersonal brand. And I always
(27:20):
say, well document everythingthat you're doing now share it,
tell people, because there'll betons of people who want to
follow the same path as you. Youknow, and you probably know,
you're in the guts of learningreact right now, you might know
more than what I know about acertain thing, because that's
what you've just studied. So youknow that there's an avenue for
everyone, whether the beginningof your career, 10 years, in 20
years in whatever to build astrong personal brand in mind.
Conor McCarthy (27:43):
I love that.
Yeah, just sharing what you'regoing through. Because Yeah, I
think we all kind of sit behindour laptops or just scroll away,
but there's so much value in thejourneys, that we're each on to
develop some kind of mastery orto, to work on our craft of what
we're doing. So yeah, like that.
Yeah, to share, and be braveabout sharing. So yeah, so
you're getting into what you'vedone so much writing, and you've
(28:05):
released the books on gumroad,etc. Are there any books that
you have re read or that youhighly recommend when it comes
to freelancing or marketing oranything to do with your craft?
Tom Hirst (28:18):
I mean, the best book or the book that most changed,
slash solidified, my view onfreelancing was Hourly Billing
is Nuts by Jonathan Stark. Andthat's the book about pricing.
And it's essentially Jonathan'sexperience Manifesto, a guide,
about moving away from hourlybilling, really. And that's
(28:40):
something that when I read thatit really struck a chord with
me, I think it must have beenabout six, seven years ago that
I read it, or maybe a little bitless, I can't remember when he
released it. But it really kindof solidified solidified what I
discovered. And the fact thatlike hourly billing really is a
bit of a bit of a trap, really,in terms of creating a stress
(29:02):
free freelance life and buildingup, you know, relationship,
relationships based on trust andthings like that. So yeah, that
was that's the one I alwaysrecommend if someone's looking
for a place to startfreelancing.
Conor McCarthy (29:13):
Okay, good one.
Yes, I'll definitely add that tothe show notes. There's, there's
just one more question I'veasked you. And that's, I asked
this of all my guests like, whatpractical advice would you give
to someone just starting out tofind their first 10 customers?
Tom Hirst (29:27):
First 10 customers, start sharing what you're doing.
start sharing what you know,straightaway. Tell, tell, tell
everyone that you know whatskills you've got. Tell them
what you're working on. Do itlocally, you know, with your
friends and family. You neverknow where you might find a
client. Do it on social media,do it on your personal website,
just share and documenteverything. And it's like, it's
(29:48):
just an opportunity magnet.
Basically, that works for you
Conor McCarthy (29:51):
Like that.
There's, there's a lot of goodwhile you sleep.
quotes that come out of thispodcast. I'm thankful for that.
Tom, you're very very good todedicate some of your time on a
busy day to come on thispodcast. There's a ton in there
that I know my audiencefreelancers will love and
obviously, in the show notes, Ihighly, highly, highly recommend
(30:11):
that everyone check out yourpersonal website, because it's
brilliant. And it's you reallydo walk the walk and and your
Twitter feed is just constant.
You are so consistent in whatyou do. And like, I feel with
your Twitter now that you'vekind of gotten into this flow
not not that I knew you back inthe day, but you're in this flow
where like everything you putout I will definitely read
(30:33):
because I know there's two orthree layers of thinking going
on to it. So yeah, I highlyrecommend people check those
out.
Tom Hirst (30:40):
Cheers, thanks Conor.
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