February 17, 2022 • 39 mins
Indie makers and marketplace shakers, this episode is a must-listen for you! Joining the podcast today is the prolific innovator and creator Jakob Greenfeld. Over the last two years, Jakob has successfully launched over fifteen software products and is the host of The Business Brainstorms podcast and creator of The Opportunities newsletter.
In this episode, we learn about Jakob’s journey from becoming a physicist to testing out the road of entrepreneurship with his bootstrapped products. Jakob gives us great insight into the early days of his workings, framework, and product launching tactics. Jakob also shines a light on taking shots on goal, the importance of authenticity, sharing your origin story and how to increase your business visibility. Key points within this episode include:
- An introduction to Jakob Greenfeld.
- The importance of hooking customers with your origin story.
- Preparation and patience in business.
- Building an online audience.
- Market response and first product sales.
- The downfalls of a product launch.
- Why we should never underestimate newsletters.
- The benefits of growing a sustainable community.
- The power of authenticity and being personable.
- Increasing your online visibility.
- Jakob’s advice on obtaining your first 10 customers.
‘’In the long term, it all boils down to just putting your brain out there and hoping that like-minded people find you.’’ – Jakob Greenfeld.
Connect with Jakob Greenfeld:
https://twitter.com/jakobgreenfeld
https://businessbrainstorms.com/
https://indieopportunities.com/
Connect with First 10 Podcast host Conor McCarthy:
https://www.first10podcast.com
https://twitter.com/TheFirst10Pod
https://www.linkedin.com/in/comccart/
Resources:
Book: How to be a capitalist without any capital by Nathan Latka
Book:
The E-Myth Revisited: Why Most Small Businesses Don’t Work by Michael E. Gerber
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Myth-Revisited-Small-Businesses
Book: Superfans by Pat Flynn
https://patflynn.com/book/superfans/
Trends.vc Newsletter
Andrew Wilkinson – Co-founder of Tiny
https://twitter.com/awilkinson
Harry Dry – The Kanye Story
Pieter Levels – 12 start ups in 12 months
https://levels.io/12-startups-12-months/
Produced in partnership with podlad.com
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Check out my podcast partners!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jakob Greenfeld (00:02):
Just a lens that helps people understand who
you are and where you're comingfrom and what you're doing
right. I think these twocomponents helped me that when I
then was ready to finally launchmy first blog that I charged
money for, it actually worked.
Conor McCarthy (00:21):
Welcome to the first 10 podcast. I'm your host,
Connor McCarthy, and I helppeople start and grow their
businesses. I do that throughjoint ventures, collaborations,
coaching, and online workshops.
In each episode of this podcast,I interview business builders of
the early days of starting abusiness, about how they found
their first 10 customers and gotoff the ground so that you can
learn what works and whatdoesn't. Please do check out my
website at ConnorMcCarthy.me formore details.
(00:45):
My guest today is JakobGreenfeld. Prolific is not a
word I often use to describefounders on this podcast, but it
definitely applies here. So aswell as creating the
opportunities newsletter andhosting the business brainstorms
podcast, Jakob has launched 15 +software products over the last
two years. And on this episode,he gives us a high level
(01:06):
perspective on his journey sofar. In particular, he talks
about his pivot from a career intheoretical particle physics to
launching his own bootstrap MBA,just really to see if
entrepreneurship was a thing forhim. He talks about the wisdom
and taking multiple shots ongoal, as well as the power of
writing about your origin storyas a founder and as a creator.
(01:26):
We talked a little bit about theadvantage of being in a
community when launchingproducts. We talk a lot about
sharing by as Jakob says, quote,putting your brain out there,
unquote through your work. Wetalk books, Twitter, had a
really quirky way that Jakob haswhen he goes about promoting his
products. So please do enjoythis episode with Jakob
Greenfeld, and thank you so muchfor listening. Jakob, first of
(01:53):
all, thank you very, very muchfor taking the time to be with
us here today on the first 10podcast.
Jakob Greenfeld (01:58):
Yeah, thanks for the invitation.
Conor McCarthy (02:01):
Do want to give us just a quick 60 or 90 second
overview about you and what youdo?
Jakob Greenfeld (02:06):
Sure. So I studied physics. This is what I
did for the past decade.
Physicist, I went over the fulldistance, and the PhD and
afterward worked as a researcherfor a short period. But I
quickly quickly found out thatas well does not for me. And
(02:27):
yeah, I would not be happythere. Because I saw many
examples of people in their 40sStill hopping around trying to
secure one of these fewpermanent positions, which are
there. And yeah, it's a toughlife. And you're not going to
have a lot of fun, because youhave to grind, you have to
(02:47):
journal these papers andwhatever. So I started looking
for jobs. Obviously, this iswhat everyone does. And I went
to the recruiting events, theusual recruiting events for
people with my background. So Idid theoretical physics. And
with a background in theoreticalphysics, there are just a
(03:08):
handful of career typical careerpaths, I would say like
consulting, softwaredevelopment, finance. And yeah,
went to the events, talk to thepeople and quickly found out
this is not my tribe, this,these are not my people. And,
yeah, I mean, they weredefinitely cool and interesting
people. And some of them, someof these people are doing
(03:31):
interesting stuff, but it's justnot for me. And so I came up
with a little plan to try ifenterpreneurship could be a good
fit for me and I was inspired byPeter levels, 12 startups in 12
months experiment, which he dida few years ago. And I came up
with a similar plan for myselfthat I coined the bootstrap MBA.
(03:52):
And my idea was, yeah, I willalso give myself 12 months, I
will also try to launch 12products during this time, and
then reevaluate, okay, isentrepreneurship for me, is this
working? Or was this a stupididea? And is it time to go back
to the recruiting events? Andyeah, this is now I think, 16,
(04:14):
this was 16 months ago or sowhen I started. So obviously,
I've not stopped. I think it wasa very easy decision, because to
my surprise, I made enough moneyto pay for my living expenses
already during this first year.
(04:37):
Which I really did not expect tohappen. And I was fully
expecting to lose it all like Isaved a little bit of money and
I yeah, I expected to lose itall. Like as a as a learning
experience and my tuition for mybootstrap MBA in the sense, but
(04:59):
no, I was really lucky that oneof my first products actually
was a commercial success. And Ihad a few successful products
that I still have. And yeah,this is where I currently am. I
own a few micro products,whatever you want to call them,
like terminologies alwaysdifficult. Now them is hockey
(05:21):
stick growth startup stuff, butyeah, they are, they're a nice
little product that providevalue to some people and pay the
bills for me.
Conor McCarthy (05:33):
Yeah, that is, that is incredible. Thank you
for sharing all that. I mean,wow to spend 10 years in physics
and being on that, I supposeclassic career track, and then
to say, no, it's no fun. Andit's extremely competitive, I'm
going to give entrepreneurshipago is I think a lot of people
out there might have this idea,maybe they're working in jobs,
(05:55):
kind of going, I wonder could Istart my own business or, you
know, do something on the sideand build it up over time. But
you you just jumped right in.
But I like how you framed it.
You said I'm gonna start abootstrap MBA, I'm not just
gonna have, you know, try aproduct, try a product and see
how it goes. You had a longterm, kind of a year, year long
goal. Is that correct?
Jakob Greenfeld (06:14):
Yeah, absolutely because you never
know how the market responds.
And like, from studying peoplewho have done similar stuff, it
was very obvious that hardlyanyone succeeds on the first try
in entrepreneurship, right? Mostpeople need many shots on the
goal until they find one thatis finally a hit. For some it
(06:36):
takes just three or five, forsome it takes 20. And that's
perfectly fine, too. So you'reyou just have to be prepared to
take these shots. And yeah, Ilike I said, I was surprised
that it actually happened for meearlier than I expected. Very
happy about that.
Conor McCarthy (06:56):
So absolutely.
Congratulations again, because Iknow from personal experience,
and I know for looking at thelandscape, I mean, you could go
on product on tour or or any anywebsite like that. And there's
there's a huge graveyard ofsoftware products that just
never never went anywhere. Itnever got anywhere. Are there
any things that you can point tonow, that helped you earn that
first bit of income from yourproducts?
Jakob Greenfeld (07:20):
Yeah. I think almost accidentally, I did a few
things right. And now Iunderstand why they worked. But
it was definitely not planned.
And one of these things ishaving having a good origin
story is very important. And I,I now observed this pattern many
(07:42):
times, if you actually look atsuccessful indie makers, or
however you want to call peoplein, in my little bubble of the
internet, many of them have avery convincing origin story
that explains where they'recoming from what they're doing.
And, for example, Harry dry, hashis Kanye story, Peter level
(08:04):
says is 12 startups in 12months, and yeah, you can look
at actually have a database of,of these origin stories, because
I like collecting them andlooking at different formats.
And I find that justinteresting. And I think this is
a great way to go from zero tosomething in terms of having an
audience or introducing yourselfto this scene online. And also,
(08:28):
I did something which is very,very common, which is starting
with products. And so before Idid my first product that
actually charged money for Ilaunched, like free products
that were really targeted at theat the maker scene itself, so
(08:48):
self referential. And that'salso very, very common. And
there's nothing wrong about it.
And because yeah, it's a goodway to introduce yourself and
tell the world, at least thislittle world, hey, here I am.
And this is what I'm up to,right. And I think these two
(09:08):
components helped me that when Ithen was ready to finally,
finally launch my first blogthat I charge money for it
actually worked so well, becauseyou know, there is this, there's
this bump, or this initialhurdle you need to get over. And
if you if you really start atzero and just to try to launch
(09:29):
something commercially, it'svery, very hard. Unless of
course you have a propermarketing budget and know what
you're doing. But like in termsof organic, organic traction, it
really helps to have at least afew people that are rooting for
you, in a sense, and Iaccomplish this through like my
(09:52):
origin store, which in my casewas this bootstrap MBA, and it
does not have to be anythinglike this In the past, like my
origin story was all about thefuture, like what I'm going to
do. And that was the same wasPeter levels, right? And it's
just a lens that helps peopleunderstand who you are and where
you're coming from and whatyou're doing. Right. and yeah,
(10:18):
that's a long answer.
Conor McCarthy (10:19):
No, no, that that is an amazing answer. And
it's, you know, that there's somuch truth in it, because it's
like the Simon Sinek GoldenCircle, p eople buy from you
because of why you do things. SoI think it's maybe an overlooked
piece of the, of the pie thatpeople, people don't consider
(10:40):
enough when they're launchingproducts. Like, what about you?
Who are you? What's yourbackstory? Why are you doing
this? Just, it's, it's almostfree, when you think about it,
to just write up something onyour website, just to say,
here's why I'm doing this. It'snot just, here's the product,
and here's what it will do foryou. But it's where did this
come from? And what are myplans? And, like, I like that,
that's, again, I think, thatkind of stuff is free, and why
(11:01):
not do it. And I think you'vedone a really good job. And just
actually, while while we're onit, your website, I think it's
brilliant I before we startedrecording, I think everyone
should check out your website.
And I'll include in the shownotes, of course, just because
you write on a huge variety oftopics, like there's everything
in there from obviously, fromcreating products, through to
the deep kind of the tech stacksthat you use you, you have an
(11:22):
amazing article in thereactually about choosing
technology stacks, that I'vereferenced a couple of times,
looking at different projects.
You talk about entrepreneurship,being a creator, you talk a
little bit mindset about it'salmost philosophical in a way.
And I know you say in yourwebsite, that these are just
kind of trains of thought. Butyou know, do you find it helpful
(11:45):
to kind of process these thingson your blog?
Jakob Greenfeld (11:48):
Oh yeah, totally. This is why I write. I
think it's true. I think briskwhen I write, and it's very hard
to think properly, withoutwriting, at least for me, so I
always need to write and thenit's really okay, why not just
publish it so that some peoplecould get value out of it. And I
actually publish far more, Iwrite from more than I publish,
(12:12):
probably ten to one is the ratioor something like that. I have.
I have honestly, hundreds ofunfinished drafts.
Conor McCarthy (12:19):
Wow. Okay, so we're this part of the
interview, I realize thathaven't asked you about any of
the products that you'vecreated? Do you probably have
them all, just front of mind? Doyou want to talk about just a
couple of them? Or do you wantto just list them out and talk
about one or two?
Jakob Greenfeld (12:36):
Yeah, I guess we can just talk about the most
interesting ones. Becauseotherwise, it's maybe going to
get a bit boring. Because Iactually don't know how many
there are, and maybe 16 or so.
And my first maybe aninteresting story is definitely
my first one, the alreadybriefly mentioned, and it's
(12:58):
called product Explorer. And itwas the first thing I put online
were actually charged money for,and I did it accidentally
something right? Other than thethings I just mentioned, namely,
the idea was actually based on,it wasn't my idea. It was
(13:20):
actually an idea I heard on apodcast, and I heard an episode
of The my first product podcastwith Andrew Wilkinson as a
guest. And there he mentionedthis idea. Funny, which funnily
is what you already mentionedbefore, that there are all these
abandoned projects on ProductHunt, right? People launched
(13:42):
them. With very, yeah, with,with with a lot of energy, but
then it quickly fizzled out, andnothing ever happens. And there
are there are many reasons why,right? Why this can happen.
Sometimes, it simply was notthat good of an idea. But
oftentimes, it's also the casethat the founder just does not
(14:05):
have all the skills that arenecessary necessary to grow a
product like this. Like, likethe easy miss stuff, right? You
need to wear all these differenthats. And many founders are just
very good technically. Sodevelopers who just love coding,
but they don't know how tocreate a product marketing plan.
(14:28):
So yeah, many factors. And thenthat can lead to like abandoned
products on product on whichactually could be valuable if
the right kind of person andtook them over. So I listened
to this, I heard this idea andthen built a little database
that helps people find theseabandoned projects, pretty much
(14:52):
and it was not just on productlaunches, but also for example,
Chrome extensions and there youcan For example, look at
extensions that haven't beenupdated in a while, right. And
this is also a good sign that,that they are the owners maybe
not. So very much interested init. At the same time, I also
(15:15):
read Nathan Latka's book, How tobe a capitalist without any
capital. And he also tells asimilar story about how he
bought a Chrome extension verycheaply, because the previous
owner was no longer reallyinterested in. So this was like
another puzzle piece, togetherwith the stuff Andrew Berkowitz
(15:37):
and talked about and yeah, Ijust combined them and built a
very, very simple website withGumroad checkout form. And the
data was all in our table. So assimple as it gets, and by the ,
I think, an early bird offer,which was really cheap. And
(16:00):
you'll get like 90 days ofaccess, and it does not repeat,
like you don't have to cancelyour subscription or anything.
And actually, the count,remember, maybe 20 bucks or so
it's what I charged. And I said,Okay, 100 of these is what I'm
offering. And yeah, they've theyactually sold out. And that was
a huge surprise. And the smartthing I did was that I gave
(16:27):
credit where credit is due likeI talked about various ideas
coming from that I got it fromAndrew Wilkinson and Nathan
Latka. And at the time, this wasnot a hack at all right? It was
just me being honest that thisis the average ideas coming
from. Yeah, and now learn thatthis is maybe obviously a smart,
(16:49):
smart way to get some attentionbecause I got retweets from both
of them. And both have hugeTwitter followings so this
really also helps to amplify onlaunch day.
Conor McCarthy (17:08):
Yeah, I bet. I know them both. Yeah, they do
have quite big Twitterfollowings. But that's, that's,
I think I remember that episodewhere he said that. And but I
love that you took it one stepor 10 steps further, and
actually went and created theproducts. You know that there is
a sales and marketing componentto all these products,
especially the ones where you'veactually made sales. Do you? How
(17:30):
do you think about sales andmarketing when you go into
these?
Jakob Greenfeld (17:37):
So far, I don't think about sales, the whole
process, right? I'm not doingany sales. And I like to keep
things low touch for me. Atleast and this, this has worked
at least for the products I'veworked with so far. But yeah,
(17:59):
marketing, obviously, I thinkthere's the step zero is
obviously validating, right ifyou're already if you have any
kind of value per productattend. And this is what the
launch is for. And this is whereit really helps to help to have
some kind of audience whetherit's on Twitter, or a
(18:20):
personnalised newsletter, right?
And which is what I'm now using,right. And this is where
typically the first firstcustomers are coming from. Like,
I'm just mentioning it on mypersonal email newsletter on
Twitter, and I launch on ProductHunt, for example. And then I
quickly, quickly learn if thisis valuable to some people,
(18:45):
right? And obviously, this isjust where the fun begins. But
it's yes, step zero. And thenstep one is growing it
sustainably in a sustainableway. And honestly, this is
something I'm still doing rightand I'm, I'm I did some
experiments and have a fewideas, but I'm definitely not an
(19:07):
expert. When it comes to thisadditional stages, further
stages of growth. And forexample, one thing I discovered,
for me that's working very, verywell is newsletter. And it's
it's I think, super interestingchannel because it's not a very
(19:29):
efficient channel. If youcompare it if you compare it for
example, to Google ads, orFacebook ads or stuff like that,
it's these are very efficientmarketplaces. And you get what
you put in right. It's it'salmost impossible, I would say
to find any real bargains,right? Like the most valuable
(19:50):
keywords on Google, you have topay a lot of money to have your
ad on there. But with anewsletter, with newsletters, it
doesn't work that way, and thereare two sides to it. And one
side is definitely like, I wouldsay that 50% of all newsletter
ads are completely overpriced,then like the pricing makes
(20:13):
absolutely no sense. And I'veseen so many of them like people
with, I don't know, 1000 - 5000subscribers, charging hundreds
of dollars for a little ad andthen newsletter. And if you do
the math, it simply does notmake any sense at all. And at
the but at the same time, youcan find, you know, really
incredible bargains where you'repaying 60 bucks, and you get an
(20:39):
incredible return of investment,I have really had 10x ROI in
some in some cases. And so likeI said, I'm not an expert, but
I've seen some, some firstglimpses that this is working.
And I'm, I definitely want toexplore it more. But a problem
(20:59):
is that it's because it's aninefficient market, it takes
time to actually find these goodoffers, right? You cannot just
click a button and it's working.
And you have of course, somenewsletter at marketplaces. But
all the newsletters listedthere, in my experience tend to
(21:20):
be overpriced. So you reallyhave to find these off market
deals and just reach out topeople talk to them. And what it
was cost to get a shout out,almost like influencer
marketing. Yeah. And I guessit's similar, but there are real
bargains to be found in theseinefficient ecosystems. And
yeah, I feel like someone,someone like me has a real
(21:41):
advantage here. Because I canlook at least like these tiny
newsletters, which can makesense for me. But like a company
like Nike or whatever, wouldnever sponsor a newsletter with
5000 subscribers, right? Theydon't care. They may be
sponsored the hustle or morninggroup with millions of
subscribers.
Conor McCarthy (22:01):
Yeah, I like that. That is Yeah, no, that
makes complete sense. And, ofcourse, there's work in that.
But there are returns and and Ithink, yeah, you're right, the
efficient market of digital adsmeans you have zero advantage
unless you've got a Nike sizebudget. So but what you do have
is maybe a bit more time to sitdown and develop relationships.
(22:21):
And I think that's smart. I likethat.
I hope you're enjoying thisepisode, and that there's some
actionable and insightful advicethat you can take out to your
business, helping you identifyand create those first 10
customers is what I do. So ifyou like what you hear on this
podcast and want moreinformation, including a bunch
of free resources on how to findyour first 10 customers and grow
(22:41):
your business, check outfirst10podcast.com. That's 10
One, zero, or find me on Twitter@thefirst10pod. Now, you
probably hear what I'm about tosay on every podcast you listen
to and it makes a really bigdifference to the show. If you
find this podcast in any wayuseful or enjoyable, I'd be so
grateful if you left me a reviewon iTunes, it really does make a
(23:04):
big difference in terms of otherpeople discovering the podcast.
Also, if you leave a review, youwill get to see your name and
the review. In lights. What I'lldo is I'll design your words and
post them online, tagging youand your project along with it.
I know it's a pretty sweet deal.
Okay, let's get on with theshow.
You mentioned a couple of booksyou mentioned the Nathan Latka
(23:26):
book and the E Myth. Are thereother books that you regard as
being important reads foreverything you've done?
Jakob Greenfeld (23:31):
Just a random example because I'm reading it
right now and this is how itusually works I guess, once I
get started it's on my mind. Itis Superfans by Pat Flynn, like
the Smart Passive Income guy.
And I was actually surprisedthat it's, it's very good, in my
opinion, or it's at least much,much better than I expected. I
don't know why I thought itwould not be very good, but it
(23:54):
is it is very good. And yeah, Iguess my impression was that Pat
is yeah, just just focusingright on the on selling stuff to
his audience and not reallydoing anything anymore. Right,
like real enterpreneurshipwhatever, whatever you want to
call it. But the book is aboutvarious names such as
(24:20):
Superfriends how you turnstrangers into subscribers and
eventually into superfans, andhe has a few very cool ideas and
shares tactics how how he doeswhat he does, and obviously this
is something he's very good atright. He built a huge audience
and does a very good job atbuilding a loyal base of super
(24:47):
fans. S o and there are I mean,there are tiny things like
sharing stuff with youraudience, you usually would only
share with good friends. Right?
And I mean, this is somethingthat most people do not do. Like
(25:14):
automatically organically,because, we all have the
impression we need to, we needto play a role, right? We need
to project some kind of imageonline and need to be
professional and whatever. Andbut then if you if you read his
explanations actually makes aton of sense. And you'll see
that all the the big players, Iwould say are using this trick,
(25:38):
and because obviously, if you'retalking to people like they are
your friend, then they will putyou right in a different box
than if you're just some guypreaching. Right. It's a cool
way to talk about your weirdobsessions. And it can actually
make sense, right? Yeah, or justjust they're sharing trivial
(26:00):
stuff. And I think that that wasinteresting.
Conor McCarthy (26:04):
Yeah, no, that's fascinating. It ties into what
we were saying earlier about,you know, your your backstory or
your why. And, like, closing thedistance between you and your
audience is important that youunderstand your motives and what
you're trying to do. And, youknow, people I will say to
people, that I that I talked towho are launching your business,
(26:25):
like, in general, people want tohelp, like people really, if
they see you trying to dosomething, they will want to
help now, the the dark side ofthat is that they may, they may
lie to you and tell you yourproduct is brilliant, and you
should definitely spend all yourtime and money developing it.
Again, because they don't youknow, they don't want to tell
you that maybe it's not forthem. So you have to be kind of
careful of that as well. Butit's Yeah, I think I think it's
(26:48):
maybe hidden in plain sightadvantage that that creators
have is that people genuinelywant to help. Are there other
people in your life who havehelped you get your first 10
customers for any of yourprojects,
Jakob Greenfeld (27:01):
Obviously, like I mentioned, Andrew Wilkinson
and Nathan Latka, becuase theyretweeted my launch tweet, yeah
and that that really helped. Butalso, I think when I, when I
really started at zero, I reallystarted at zero, 1 and a half
year ago, in terms of Twitterfollowers, new styles of
(27:23):
privates, revenue, everything.
And I got my first 100 or 200subscribers, because arbit
called actually retweeted myblog post, my Bootstrap, MBA
blog post, so I was reallythankful for that. Yeah, it
really helped. And had me inmany, many, many, many similar
(27:46):
cool stories. For example, DruRiley, who runs trends.vc
newsletter, and he actuallyreached out to me and my
products, product Explorer wasthe first, he did like as a
sponsored post in hisnewsletter.
Conor McCarthy (28:08):
Oh, cool.
Jakob Greenfeld (28:09):
Which is yeah, incredible, right? Yeah. You're,
You're always have like aseperation with with any kind of
ad format. And if it's the firstof its kind, it's of course,
working. Very, very good, butalso he had a very good audience
and at the time, I think 10,000or so subscribers, and that
obviously helped.
Conor McCarthy (28:31):
Yeah. There's some there's some big names to
get behind. Yeah. I like that. Alot of people listen to this
podcast, obviously, they're,they're either thinking of
starting a new side hustle or anew main business. Or maybe
they're in it at the momenttrying to find their first 10
customers. Do you have anyadvice to give to people who are
who are trying to find thosefirst 10 customers right now?
Jakob Greenfeld (28:52):
In the world, I'm coming from like, Bootstrap,
Entretrapreneurs, indie makers.
I think it really, really helps,as I mentioned, to, to put your
brain out there and to makeyourself visible in whatever
format suits you best. But Ithink Twitter is by far the
easiest platform to go from zeroto something, if you compare it
(29:19):
for example, with podcasts orYouTube. They are notoriously
hard right to to get off theground. Whereas on Twitter, you
just need one retweet fromsomeone and it doesn't even have
to be someone very famous, butjust someone a little with a
with some following. And you'realready Yeah, you're getting off
(29:41):
the ground. Right. And this justdoesn't happen with podcasts or
on YouTube. So yeah, like Isaid, having an origin story.
And then putting, putting yourbrain out there telling people
what, who you are what you areabout and and sharing everything
you'll learn. And it maybesounds a bit shady. But the the
(30:08):
correct way, I think, to thinkabout it is that if you're if
you're an indie maker, youobviously can't spend a lot of
money on ads. So what is yourunfair advantage, right? And
your unfair advantage is thiscommunity we have online, this
cosy little village of otherindie makers. And it, it really,
(30:33):
really helps if you have peoplerooting for you, right? If you
really have this community ofpeople wanting you to succeed.
And there are many examples ofpeople who are doing a very,
very good job at this. And yeah,leveraging, at least if you're
(30:55):
in this world of indie makers,if you want to play this game,
then I would say, yeah, thinkingin terms of having people root
for you. And it doesn't have tobe very tactical. But you can
phrase it in other ways, right?
You can just straight yeah, justbe helpful, right? Just be
authentic, and share what you'lllearn. And this is how you
(31:19):
eventually build like, I thinkfollowing always sounds strange,
but like a group of people thatare rooting for you. And they
just yeah, when you'reannouncing, hey, and testing
something, I'm looking for betatesters, or I'm I'm launching
today, they just automaticallyclick that like button, right?
(31:42):
Just because they want to seeyou succeed. And they are I
don't think there is okay,probably there are some hacks
you can you can try to do that.
But in, in the long term, it allboils down to just putting your
brain out there and hoping thatlike minded people find you so
(32:04):
and realizing that this is theunfair advantage we have as
indie makers sitting in themiddle of nowhere.
Conor McCarthy (32:12):
Yes, you're all in the same kind of nowhere boat
together, which is yeah, that's,that's great. I think, putting
your brain out there. I lovethat. I love that phrase. And
yeah, just looking around, thereare so many people that you
know, and don't know who aren'tin that same boat and to, to
leverage that. That fact, Ithink, yeah, that's really
important. What is coming upnext for you. So you just
(32:33):
launched products? Pretty quick,you have the idea, you're able
to code it up and get it outthere. So do you have anything
in the pipeline that you cantalk about?
Jakob Greenfeld (32:41):
Oh, yeah, many.
I actually have like fiveproducts I want to launch in the
next few months. And they areall yeah, tiny, tiny projects,
but where I think they aresolving a real, real problem.
And one of them is just a spinoff of one of my existing
(33:05):
products. And I tried to make itpart of it, but it didn't really
work out the way I wanted it.
And the product is under theradar. It's a trend with signal
detection service if you want.
And currently, it's just adatabase of trend signals. But
my idea is to turn this into aprofit tool, because I think my,
(33:28):
the technology I built is fartoo good to just do it that way.
So I actually want to givepeople access to it and allow
them to use it in whatever waythey want. So just to give one
example, I want to work on is,say someone has an ecommerce
(33:51):
store that sells campingequipment, I run these kind of
people, though, they can justenter like the keywords they're
interested in and the pages thatthey are interested in. And then
they are monitoring. And itautomatically the algorithm is
monitoring, like new trends thatare popping up in that space.
(34:14):
And that's my idea of how I wantto turn under the radar or like,
like, one feature I had plannedfor it into her into assess, and
like that little software tool.
And another thing where I'mthinking about for example, I
(34:35):
actually built an use API, and Ibuilt it for a friend and we
already talked about him beforethe recording started, I coded a
new API just for him. And if youdo some research, there are
already 1000s of newest API's.
But turns out that they are allmissing a few essential
(34:56):
features, at least for the usecase Ryan has. So maybe other
people have have the same need.
Like the API is already working,it's online, but it currently
has only one user. Ryan! Andthat's fine, right? And just
need to, to put some stuffaround it and then launch it.
(35:18):
But it's definitely on the, onthe roadmap to do something with
it. And yeah, there are, there'sanother idea that I'm, that I'm
working on right now. And it's,it's, I just coded it before we,
before we started talkingactually. And because it's it's
(35:42):
solving a problem I'm havingmyself, but I've also seen in a
startup I've helped with, iswhen you have an email list, a
subscriber list, or also a userlist, and finding your male most
valuable subscribers isobviously something valuable,
(36:03):
right? If I can look at my emaillist and find out oh, this guy
actually has 20k followers onTwitter, or 100K followers on
YouTube, I should probably reachout to him and say hi, or this
is a really famous VC guy,whatever. And it really helps
to, to, to notice, and just tomaybe just to talk to them, but
(36:25):
maybe also to establish somekind of partnerships. Because
it's obviously far moreeffective to talk, yeah, to get
a shout out from someone who'sreally using their product and
just approaching strangers andbribing them to give. So you're
building a tool, and there aresolutions. But they they they
(36:48):
are coming from different world,I would say different industry.
So they are approaching thatsame problem in a different way.
And they are very expensive,where you are uploading, like
your email list, and you get abunch of information on the
people on it. And I've at leastthe solutions I found so far, it
didn't really solve the problemfor me. And also for the startup
(37:11):
I've, I, I helped us. So Ithought I can I can solve that.
And I recorded it and it'sworking. So I already found good
stuff.I will make it available.
Let's see if anyone else findsvalue in that. And I yeah, I
want to keep it really, reallyminimal. Again, just to validate
it, I would really just put up aGumroad payment form, and then
(37:34):
have a table form for wherepeople can enter the
information. And let's see if Ican get customers but I'm very
optimistic. Yeah, that's becauseit's solving a problem for
myself.
Conor McCarthy (37:50):
Always a good place to start, solve your own
problems! Jakob, you're absolutemachine, good for you. You're
able to see something, thinkabout it and then just start
building it. So you can showpeople and get some validation
and I appreciate that. That'spretty amazing. Thank you very
much for your time today. Ilook, I'm going to link to all
your, your website and youryou've got a podcast called the
(38:13):
Business brainstorms podcast,sorry, that people should check
out as well. And you've got anewsletter and all that good
stuff. So I'm going to link tothat in the newsletter. Is there
anything else you'd like to saybefore we wrap up?
Jakob Greenfeld (38:28):
No, perfect.
Thanks a lot for the invitation.
That was really fun.
Just a lens that helps people understand who
you are and where you're comingfrom and what you're doing
right. I think these twocomponents helped me that when I
then was ready to finally launchmy first blog that I charged
money for, it actually worked.
Conor McCarthy (00:21):
Welcome to the first 10 podcast. I'm your host,
Connor McCarthy, and I helppeople start and grow their
businesses. I do that throughjoint ventures, collaborations,
coaching, and online workshops.
In each episode of this podcast,I interview business builders of
the early days of starting abusiness, about how they found
their first 10 customers and gotoff the ground so that you can
learn what works and whatdoesn't. Please do check out my
website at ConnorMcCarthy.me formore details.
(00:45):
My guest today is JakobGreenfeld. Prolific is not a
word I often use to describefounders on this podcast, but it
definitely applies here. So aswell as creating the
opportunities newsletter andhosting the business brainstorms
podcast, Jakob has launched 15 +software products over the last
two years. And on this episode,he gives us a high level
(01:06):
perspective on his journey sofar. In particular, he talks
about his pivot from a career intheoretical particle physics to
launching his own bootstrap MBA,just really to see if
entrepreneurship was a thing forhim. He talks about the wisdom
and taking multiple shots ongoal, as well as the power of
writing about your origin storyas a founder and as a creator.
(01:26):
We talked a little bit about theadvantage of being in a
community when launchingproducts. We talk a lot about
sharing by as Jakob says, quote,putting your brain out there,
unquote through your work. Wetalk books, Twitter, had a
really quirky way that Jakob haswhen he goes about promoting his
products. So please do enjoythis episode with Jakob
Greenfeld, and thank you so muchfor listening. Jakob, first of
(01:53):
all, thank you very, very muchfor taking the time to be with
us here today on the first 10podcast.
Jakob Greenfeld (01:58):
Yeah, thanks for the invitation.
Conor McCarthy (02:01):
Do want to give us just a quick 60 or 90 second
overview about you and what youdo?
Jakob Greenfeld (02:06):
Sure. So I studied physics. This is what I
did for the past decade.
Physicist, I went over the fulldistance, and the PhD and
afterward worked as a researcherfor a short period. But I
quickly quickly found out thatas well does not for me. And
(02:27):
yeah, I would not be happythere. Because I saw many
examples of people in their 40sStill hopping around trying to
secure one of these fewpermanent positions, which are
there. And yeah, it's a toughlife. And you're not going to
have a lot of fun, because youhave to grind, you have to
(02:47):
journal these papers andwhatever. So I started looking
for jobs. Obviously, this iswhat everyone does. And I went
to the recruiting events, theusual recruiting events for
people with my background. So Idid theoretical physics. And
with a background in theoreticalphysics, there are just a
(03:08):
handful of career typical careerpaths, I would say like
consulting, softwaredevelopment, finance. And yeah,
went to the events, talk to thepeople and quickly found out
this is not my tribe, this,these are not my people. And,
yeah, I mean, they weredefinitely cool and interesting
people. And some of them, someof these people are doing
(03:31):
interesting stuff, but it's justnot for me. And so I came up
with a little plan to try ifenterpreneurship could be a good
fit for me and I was inspired byPeter levels, 12 startups in 12
months experiment, which he dida few years ago. And I came up
with a similar plan for myselfthat I coined the bootstrap MBA.
(03:52):
And my idea was, yeah, I willalso give myself 12 months, I
will also try to launch 12products during this time, and
then reevaluate, okay, isentrepreneurship for me, is this
working? Or was this a stupididea? And is it time to go back
to the recruiting events? Andyeah, this is now I think, 16,
(04:14):
this was 16 months ago or sowhen I started. So obviously,
I've not stopped. I think it wasa very easy decision, because to
my surprise, I made enough moneyto pay for my living expenses
already during this first year.
(04:37):
Which I really did not expect tohappen. And I was fully
expecting to lose it all like Isaved a little bit of money and
I yeah, I expected to lose itall. Like as a as a learning
experience and my tuition for mybootstrap MBA in the sense, but
(04:59):
no, I was really lucky that oneof my first products actually
was a commercial success. And Ihad a few successful products
that I still have. And yeah,this is where I currently am. I
own a few micro products,whatever you want to call them,
like terminologies alwaysdifficult. Now them is hockey
(05:21):
stick growth startup stuff, butyeah, they are, they're a nice
little product that providevalue to some people and pay the
bills for me.
Conor McCarthy (05:33):
Yeah, that is, that is incredible. Thank you
for sharing all that. I mean,wow to spend 10 years in physics
and being on that, I supposeclassic career track, and then
to say, no, it's no fun. Andit's extremely competitive, I'm
going to give entrepreneurshipago is I think a lot of people
out there might have this idea,maybe they're working in jobs,
(05:55):
kind of going, I wonder could Istart my own business or, you
know, do something on the sideand build it up over time. But
you you just jumped right in.
But I like how you framed it.
You said I'm gonna start abootstrap MBA, I'm not just
gonna have, you know, try aproduct, try a product and see
how it goes. You had a longterm, kind of a year, year long
goal. Is that correct?
Jakob Greenfeld (06:14):
Yeah, absolutely because you never
know how the market responds.
And like, from studying peoplewho have done similar stuff, it
was very obvious that hardlyanyone succeeds on the first try
in entrepreneurship, right? Mostpeople need many shots on the
goal until they find one thatis finally a hit. For some it
(06:36):
takes just three or five, forsome it takes 20. And that's
perfectly fine, too. So you'reyou just have to be prepared to
take these shots. And yeah, Ilike I said, I was surprised
that it actually happened for meearlier than I expected. Very
happy about that.
Conor McCarthy (06:56):
So absolutely.
Congratulations again, because Iknow from personal experience,
and I know for looking at thelandscape, I mean, you could go
on product on tour or or any anywebsite like that. And there's
there's a huge graveyard ofsoftware products that just
never never went anywhere. Itnever got anywhere. Are there
any things that you can point tonow, that helped you earn that
first bit of income from yourproducts?
Jakob Greenfeld (07:20):
Yeah. I think almost accidentally, I did a few
things right. And now Iunderstand why they worked. But
it was definitely not planned.
And one of these things ishaving having a good origin
story is very important. And I,I now observed this pattern many
(07:42):
times, if you actually look atsuccessful indie makers, or
however you want to call peoplein, in my little bubble of the
internet, many of them have avery convincing origin story
that explains where they'recoming from what they're doing.
And, for example, Harry dry, hashis Kanye story, Peter level
(08:04):
says is 12 startups in 12months, and yeah, you can look
at actually have a database of,of these origin stories, because
I like collecting them andlooking at different formats.
And I find that justinteresting. And I think this is
a great way to go from zero tosomething in terms of having an
audience or introducing yourselfto this scene online. And also,
(08:28):
I did something which is very,very common, which is starting
with products. And so before Idid my first product that
actually charged money for Ilaunched, like free products
that were really targeted at theat the maker scene itself, so
(08:48):
self referential. And that'salso very, very common. And
there's nothing wrong about it.
And because yeah, it's a goodway to introduce yourself and
tell the world, at least thislittle world, hey, here I am.
And this is what I'm up to,right. And I think these two
(09:08):
components helped me that when Ithen was ready to finally,
finally launch my first blogthat I charge money for it
actually worked so well, becauseyou know, there is this, there's
this bump, or this initialhurdle you need to get over. And
if you if you really start atzero and just to try to launch
(09:29):
something commercially, it'svery, very hard. Unless of
course you have a propermarketing budget and know what
you're doing. But like in termsof organic, organic traction, it
really helps to have at least afew people that are rooting for
you, in a sense, and Iaccomplish this through like my
(09:52):
origin store, which in my casewas this bootstrap MBA, and it
does not have to be anythinglike this In the past, like my
origin story was all about thefuture, like what I'm going to
do. And that was the same wasPeter levels, right? And it's
just a lens that helps peopleunderstand who you are and where
you're coming from and whatyou're doing. Right. and yeah,
(10:18):
that's a long answer.
Conor McCarthy (10:19):
No, no, that that is an amazing answer. And
it's, you know, that there's somuch truth in it, because it's
like the Simon Sinek GoldenCircle, p eople buy from you
because of why you do things. SoI think it's maybe an overlooked
piece of the, of the pie thatpeople, people don't consider
(10:40):
enough when they're launchingproducts. Like, what about you?
Who are you? What's yourbackstory? Why are you doing
this? Just, it's, it's almostfree, when you think about it,
to just write up something onyour website, just to say,
here's why I'm doing this. It'snot just, here's the product,
and here's what it will do foryou. But it's where did this
come from? And what are myplans? And, like, I like that,
that's, again, I think, thatkind of stuff is free, and why
(11:01):
not do it. And I think you'vedone a really good job. And just
actually, while while we're onit, your website, I think it's
brilliant I before we startedrecording, I think everyone
should check out your website.
And I'll include in the shownotes, of course, just because
you write on a huge variety oftopics, like there's everything
in there from obviously, fromcreating products, through to
the deep kind of the tech stacksthat you use you, you have an
(11:22):
amazing article in thereactually about choosing
technology stacks, that I'vereferenced a couple of times,
looking at different projects.
You talk about entrepreneurship,being a creator, you talk a
little bit mindset about it'salmost philosophical in a way.
And I know you say in yourwebsite, that these are just
kind of trains of thought. Butyou know, do you find it helpful
(11:45):
to kind of process these thingson your blog?
Jakob Greenfeld (11:48):
Oh yeah, totally. This is why I write. I
think it's true. I think briskwhen I write, and it's very hard
to think properly, withoutwriting, at least for me, so I
always need to write and thenit's really okay, why not just
publish it so that some peoplecould get value out of it. And I
actually publish far more, Iwrite from more than I publish,
(12:12):
probably ten to one is the ratioor something like that. I have.
I have honestly, hundreds ofunfinished drafts.
Conor McCarthy (12:19):
Wow. Okay, so we're this part of the
interview, I realize thathaven't asked you about any of
the products that you'vecreated? Do you probably have
them all, just front of mind? Doyou want to talk about just a
couple of them? Or do you wantto just list them out and talk
about one or two?
Jakob Greenfeld (12:36):
Yeah, I guess we can just talk about the most
interesting ones. Becauseotherwise, it's maybe going to
get a bit boring. Because Iactually don't know how many
there are, and maybe 16 or so.
And my first maybe aninteresting story is definitely
my first one, the alreadybriefly mentioned, and it's
(12:58):
called product Explorer. And itwas the first thing I put online
were actually charged money for,and I did it accidentally
something right? Other than thethings I just mentioned, namely,
the idea was actually based on,it wasn't my idea. It was
(13:20):
actually an idea I heard on apodcast, and I heard an episode
of The my first product podcastwith Andrew Wilkinson as a
guest. And there he mentionedthis idea. Funny, which funnily
is what you already mentionedbefore, that there are all these
abandoned projects on ProductHunt, right? People launched
(13:42):
them. With very, yeah, with,with with a lot of energy, but
then it quickly fizzled out, andnothing ever happens. And there
are there are many reasons why,right? Why this can happen.
Sometimes, it simply was notthat good of an idea. But
oftentimes, it's also the casethat the founder just does not
(14:05):
have all the skills that arenecessary necessary to grow a
product like this. Like, likethe easy miss stuff, right? You
need to wear all these differenthats. And many founders are just
very good technically. Sodevelopers who just love coding,
but they don't know how tocreate a product marketing plan.
(14:28):
So yeah, many factors. And thenthat can lead to like abandoned
products on product on whichactually could be valuable if
the right kind of person andtook them over. So I listened
to this, I heard this idea andthen built a little database
that helps people find theseabandoned projects, pretty much
(14:52):
and it was not just on productlaunches, but also for example,
Chrome extensions and there youcan For example, look at
extensions that haven't beenupdated in a while, right. And
this is also a good sign that,that they are the owners maybe
not. So very much interested init. At the same time, I also
(15:15):
read Nathan Latka's book, How tobe a capitalist without any
capital. And he also tells asimilar story about how he
bought a Chrome extension verycheaply, because the previous
owner was no longer reallyinterested in. So this was like
another puzzle piece, togetherwith the stuff Andrew Berkowitz
(15:37):
and talked about and yeah, Ijust combined them and built a
very, very simple website withGumroad checkout form. And the
data was all in our table. So assimple as it gets, and by the ,
I think, an early bird offer,which was really cheap. And
(16:00):
you'll get like 90 days ofaccess, and it does not repeat,
like you don't have to cancelyour subscription or anything.
And actually, the count,remember, maybe 20 bucks or so
it's what I charged. And I said,Okay, 100 of these is what I'm
offering. And yeah, they've theyactually sold out. And that was
a huge surprise. And the smartthing I did was that I gave
(16:27):
credit where credit is due likeI talked about various ideas
coming from that I got it fromAndrew Wilkinson and Nathan
Latka. And at the time, this wasnot a hack at all right? It was
just me being honest that thisis the average ideas coming
from. Yeah, and now learn thatthis is maybe obviously a smart,
(16:49):
smart way to get some attentionbecause I got retweets from both
of them. And both have hugeTwitter followings so this
really also helps to amplify onlaunch day.
Conor McCarthy (17:08):
Yeah, I bet. I know them both. Yeah, they do
have quite big Twitterfollowings. But that's, that's,
I think I remember that episodewhere he said that. And but I
love that you took it one stepor 10 steps further, and
actually went and created theproducts. You know that there is
a sales and marketing componentto all these products,
especially the ones where you'veactually made sales. Do you? How
(17:30):
do you think about sales andmarketing when you go into
these?
Jakob Greenfeld (17:37):
So far, I don't think about sales, the whole
process, right? I'm not doingany sales. And I like to keep
things low touch for me. Atleast and this, this has worked
at least for the products I'veworked with so far. But yeah,
(17:59):
marketing, obviously, I thinkthere's the step zero is
obviously validating, right ifyou're already if you have any
kind of value per productattend. And this is what the
launch is for. And this is whereit really helps to help to have
some kind of audience whetherit's on Twitter, or a
(18:20):
personnalised newsletter, right?
And which is what I'm now using,right. And this is where
typically the first firstcustomers are coming from. Like,
I'm just mentioning it on mypersonal email newsletter on
Twitter, and I launch on ProductHunt, for example. And then I
quickly, quickly learn if thisis valuable to some people,
(18:45):
right? And obviously, this isjust where the fun begins. But
it's yes, step zero. And thenstep one is growing it
sustainably in a sustainableway. And honestly, this is
something I'm still doing rightand I'm, I'm I did some
experiments and have a fewideas, but I'm definitely not an
(19:07):
expert. When it comes to thisadditional stages, further
stages of growth. And forexample, one thing I discovered,
for me that's working very, verywell is newsletter. And it's
it's I think, super interestingchannel because it's not a very
(19:29):
efficient channel. If youcompare it if you compare it for
example, to Google ads, orFacebook ads or stuff like that,
it's these are very efficientmarketplaces. And you get what
you put in right. It's it'salmost impossible, I would say
to find any real bargains,right? Like the most valuable
(19:50):
keywords on Google, you have topay a lot of money to have your
ad on there. But with anewsletter, with newsletters, it
doesn't work that way, and thereare two sides to it. And one
side is definitely like, I wouldsay that 50% of all newsletter
ads are completely overpriced,then like the pricing makes
(20:13):
absolutely no sense. And I'veseen so many of them like people
with, I don't know, 1000 - 5000subscribers, charging hundreds
of dollars for a little ad andthen newsletter. And if you do
the math, it simply does notmake any sense at all. And at
the but at the same time, youcan find, you know, really
incredible bargains where you'repaying 60 bucks, and you get an
(20:39):
incredible return of investment,I have really had 10x ROI in
some in some cases. And so likeI said, I'm not an expert, but
I've seen some, some firstglimpses that this is working.
And I'm, I definitely want toexplore it more. But a problem
(20:59):
is that it's because it's aninefficient market, it takes
time to actually find these goodoffers, right? You cannot just
click a button and it's working.
And you have of course, somenewsletter at marketplaces. But
all the newsletters listedthere, in my experience tend to
(21:20):
be overpriced. So you reallyhave to find these off market
deals and just reach out topeople talk to them. And what it
was cost to get a shout out,almost like influencer
marketing. Yeah. And I guessit's similar, but there are real
bargains to be found in theseinefficient ecosystems. And
yeah, I feel like someone,someone like me has a real
(21:41):
advantage here. Because I canlook at least like these tiny
newsletters, which can makesense for me. But like a company
like Nike or whatever, wouldnever sponsor a newsletter with
5000 subscribers, right? Theydon't care. They may be
sponsored the hustle or morninggroup with millions of
subscribers.
Conor McCarthy (22:01):
Yeah, I like that. That is Yeah, no, that
makes complete sense. And, ofcourse, there's work in that.
But there are returns and and Ithink, yeah, you're right, the
efficient market of digital adsmeans you have zero advantage
unless you've got a Nike sizebudget. So but what you do have
is maybe a bit more time to sitdown and develop relationships.
(22:21):
And I think that's smart. I likethat.
I hope you're enjoying thisepisode, and that there's some
actionable and insightful advicethat you can take out to your
business, helping you identifyand create those first 10
customers is what I do. So ifyou like what you hear on this
podcast and want moreinformation, including a bunch
of free resources on how to findyour first 10 customers and grow
(22:41):
your business, check outfirst10podcast.com. That's 10
One, zero, or find me on Twitter@thefirst10pod. Now, you
probably hear what I'm about tosay on every podcast you listen
to and it makes a really bigdifference to the show. If you
find this podcast in any wayuseful or enjoyable, I'd be so
grateful if you left me a reviewon iTunes, it really does make a
(23:04):
big difference in terms of otherpeople discovering the podcast.
Also, if you leave a review, youwill get to see your name and
the review. In lights. What I'lldo is I'll design your words and
post them online, tagging youand your project along with it.
I know it's a pretty sweet deal.
Okay, let's get on with theshow.
You mentioned a couple of booksyou mentioned the Nathan Latka
(23:26):
book and the E Myth. Are thereother books that you regard as
being important reads foreverything you've done?
Jakob Greenfeld (23:31):
Just a random example because I'm reading it
right now and this is how itusually works I guess, once I
get started it's on my mind. Itis Superfans by Pat Flynn, like
the Smart Passive Income guy.
And I was actually surprisedthat it's, it's very good, in my
opinion, or it's at least much,much better than I expected. I
don't know why I thought itwould not be very good, but it
(23:54):
is it is very good. And yeah, Iguess my impression was that Pat
is yeah, just just focusingright on the on selling stuff to
his audience and not reallydoing anything anymore. Right,
like real enterpreneurshipwhatever, whatever you want to
call it. But the book is aboutvarious names such as
(24:20):
Superfriends how you turnstrangers into subscribers and
eventually into superfans, andhe has a few very cool ideas and
shares tactics how how he doeswhat he does, and obviously this
is something he's very good atright. He built a huge audience
and does a very good job atbuilding a loyal base of super
(24:47):
fans. S o and there are I mean,there are tiny things like
sharing stuff with youraudience, you usually would only
share with good friends. Right?
And I mean, this is somethingthat most people do not do. Like
(25:14):
automatically organically,because, we all have the
impression we need to, we needto play a role, right? We need
to project some kind of imageonline and need to be
professional and whatever. Andbut then if you if you read his
explanations actually makes aton of sense. And you'll see
that all the the big players, Iwould say are using this trick,
(25:38):
and because obviously, if you'retalking to people like they are
your friend, then they will putyou right in a different box
than if you're just some guypreaching. Right. It's a cool
way to talk about your weirdobsessions. And it can actually
make sense, right? Yeah, or justjust they're sharing trivial
(26:00):
stuff. And I think that that wasinteresting.
Conor McCarthy (26:04):
Yeah, no, that's fascinating. It ties into what
we were saying earlier about,you know, your your backstory or
your why. And, like, closing thedistance between you and your
audience is important that youunderstand your motives and what
you're trying to do. And, youknow, people I will say to
people, that I that I talked towho are launching your business,
(26:25):
like, in general, people want tohelp, like people really, if
they see you trying to dosomething, they will want to
help now, the the dark side ofthat is that they may, they may
lie to you and tell you yourproduct is brilliant, and you
should definitely spend all yourtime and money developing it.
Again, because they don't youknow, they don't want to tell
you that maybe it's not forthem. So you have to be kind of
careful of that as well. Butit's Yeah, I think I think it's
(26:48):
maybe hidden in plain sightadvantage that that creators
have is that people genuinelywant to help. Are there other
people in your life who havehelped you get your first 10
customers for any of yourprojects,
Jakob Greenfeld (27:01):
Obviously, like I mentioned, Andrew Wilkinson
and Nathan Latka, becuase theyretweeted my launch tweet, yeah
and that that really helped. Butalso, I think when I, when I
really started at zero, I reallystarted at zero, 1 and a half
year ago, in terms of Twitterfollowers, new styles of
(27:23):
privates, revenue, everything.
And I got my first 100 or 200subscribers, because arbit
called actually retweeted myblog post, my Bootstrap, MBA
blog post, so I was reallythankful for that. Yeah, it
really helped. And had me inmany, many, many, many similar
(27:46):
cool stories. For example, DruRiley, who runs trends.vc
newsletter, and he actuallyreached out to me and my
products, product Explorer wasthe first, he did like as a
sponsored post in hisnewsletter.
Conor McCarthy (28:08):
Oh, cool.
Jakob Greenfeld (28:09):
Which is yeah, incredible, right? Yeah. You're,
You're always have like aseperation with with any kind of
ad format. And if it's the firstof its kind, it's of course,
working. Very, very good, butalso he had a very good audience
and at the time, I think 10,000or so subscribers, and that
obviously helped.
Conor McCarthy (28:31):
Yeah. There's some there's some big names to
get behind. Yeah. I like that. Alot of people listen to this
podcast, obviously, they're,they're either thinking of
starting a new side hustle or anew main business. Or maybe
they're in it at the momenttrying to find their first 10
customers. Do you have anyadvice to give to people who are
who are trying to find thosefirst 10 customers right now?
Jakob Greenfeld (28:52):
In the world, I'm coming from like, Bootstrap,
Entretrapreneurs, indie makers.
I think it really, really helps,as I mentioned, to, to put your
brain out there and to makeyourself visible in whatever
format suits you best. But Ithink Twitter is by far the
easiest platform to go from zeroto something, if you compare it
(29:19):
for example, with podcasts orYouTube. They are notoriously
hard right to to get off theground. Whereas on Twitter, you
just need one retweet fromsomeone and it doesn't even have
to be someone very famous, butjust someone a little with a
with some following. And you'realready Yeah, you're getting off
(29:41):
the ground. Right. And this justdoesn't happen with podcasts or
on YouTube. So yeah, like Isaid, having an origin story.
And then putting, putting yourbrain out there telling people
what, who you are what you areabout and and sharing everything
you'll learn. And it maybesounds a bit shady. But the the
(30:08):
correct way, I think, to thinkabout it is that if you're if
you're an indie maker, youobviously can't spend a lot of
money on ads. So what is yourunfair advantage, right? And
your unfair advantage is thiscommunity we have online, this
cosy little village of otherindie makers. And it, it really,
(30:33):
really helps if you have peoplerooting for you, right? If you
really have this community ofpeople wanting you to succeed.
And there are many examples ofpeople who are doing a very,
very good job at this. And yeah,leveraging, at least if you're
(30:55):
in this world of indie makers,if you want to play this game,
then I would say, yeah, thinkingin terms of having people root
for you. And it doesn't have tobe very tactical. But you can
phrase it in other ways, right?
You can just straight yeah, justbe helpful, right? Just be
authentic, and share what you'lllearn. And this is how you
(31:19):
eventually build like, I thinkfollowing always sounds strange,
but like a group of people thatare rooting for you. And they
just yeah, when you'reannouncing, hey, and testing
something, I'm looking for betatesters, or I'm I'm launching
today, they just automaticallyclick that like button, right?
(31:42):
Just because they want to seeyou succeed. And they are I
don't think there is okay,probably there are some hacks
you can you can try to do that.
But in, in the long term, it allboils down to just putting your
brain out there and hoping thatlike minded people find you so
(32:04):
and realizing that this is theunfair advantage we have as
indie makers sitting in themiddle of nowhere.
Conor McCarthy (32:12):
Yes, you're all in the same kind of nowhere boat
together, which is yeah, that's,that's great. I think, putting
your brain out there. I lovethat. I love that phrase. And
yeah, just looking around, thereare so many people that you
know, and don't know who aren'tin that same boat and to, to
leverage that. That fact, Ithink, yeah, that's really
important. What is coming upnext for you. So you just
(32:33):
launched products? Pretty quick,you have the idea, you're able
to code it up and get it outthere. So do you have anything
in the pipeline that you cantalk about?
Jakob Greenfeld (32:41):
Oh, yeah, many.
I actually have like fiveproducts I want to launch in the
next few months. And they areall yeah, tiny, tiny projects,
but where I think they aresolving a real, real problem.
And one of them is just a spinoff of one of my existing
(33:05):
products. And I tried to make itpart of it, but it didn't really
work out the way I wanted it.
And the product is under theradar. It's a trend with signal
detection service if you want.
And currently, it's just adatabase of trend signals. But
my idea is to turn this into aprofit tool, because I think my,
(33:28):
the technology I built is fartoo good to just do it that way.
So I actually want to givepeople access to it and allow
them to use it in whatever waythey want. So just to give one
example, I want to work on is,say someone has an ecommerce
(33:51):
store that sells campingequipment, I run these kind of
people, though, they can justenter like the keywords they're
interested in and the pages thatthey are interested in. And then
they are monitoring. And itautomatically the algorithm is
monitoring, like new trends thatare popping up in that space.
(34:14):
And that's my idea of how I wantto turn under the radar or like,
like, one feature I had plannedfor it into her into assess, and
like that little software tool.
And another thing where I'mthinking about for example, I
(34:35):
actually built an use API, and Ibuilt it for a friend and we
already talked about him beforethe recording started, I coded a
new API just for him. And if youdo some research, there are
already 1000s of newest API's.
But turns out that they are allmissing a few essential
(34:56):
features, at least for the usecase Ryan has. So maybe other
people have have the same need.
Like the API is already working,it's online, but it currently
has only one user. Ryan! Andthat's fine, right? And just
need to, to put some stuffaround it and then launch it.
(35:18):
But it's definitely on the, onthe roadmap to do something with
it. And yeah, there are, there'sanother idea that I'm, that I'm
working on right now. And it's,it's, I just coded it before we,
before we started talkingactually. And because it's it's
(35:42):
solving a problem I'm havingmyself, but I've also seen in a
startup I've helped with, iswhen you have an email list, a
subscriber list, or also a userlist, and finding your male most
valuable subscribers isobviously something valuable,
(36:03):
right? If I can look at my emaillist and find out oh, this guy
actually has 20k followers onTwitter, or 100K followers on
YouTube, I should probably reachout to him and say hi, or this
is a really famous VC guy,whatever. And it really helps
to, to, to notice, and just tomaybe just to talk to them, but
(36:25):
maybe also to establish somekind of partnerships. Because
it's obviously far moreeffective to talk, yeah, to get
a shout out from someone who'sreally using their product and
just approaching strangers andbribing them to give. So you're
building a tool, and there aresolutions. But they they they
(36:48):
are coming from different world,I would say different industry.
So they are approaching thatsame problem in a different way.
And they are very expensive,where you are uploading, like
your email list, and you get abunch of information on the
people on it. And I've at leastthe solutions I found so far, it
didn't really solve the problemfor me. And also for the startup
(37:11):
I've, I, I helped us. So Ithought I can I can solve that.
And I recorded it and it'sworking. So I already found good
stuff.I will make it available.
Let's see if anyone else findsvalue in that. And I yeah, I
want to keep it really, reallyminimal. Again, just to validate
it, I would really just put up aGumroad payment form, and then
(37:34):
have a table form for wherepeople can enter the
information. And let's see if Ican get customers but I'm very
optimistic. Yeah, that's becauseit's solving a problem for
myself.
Conor McCarthy (37:50):
Always a good place to start, solve your own
problems! Jakob, you're absolutemachine, good for you. You're
able to see something, thinkabout it and then just start
building it. So you can showpeople and get some validation
and I appreciate that. That'spretty amazing. Thank you very
much for your time today. Ilook, I'm going to link to all
your, your website and youryou've got a podcast called the
(38:13):
Business brainstorms podcast,sorry, that people should check
out as well. And you've got anewsletter and all that good
stuff. So I'm going to link tothat in the newsletter. Is there
anything else you'd like to saybefore we wrap up?
Jakob Greenfeld (38:28):
No, perfect.
Thanks a lot for the invitation.
That was really fun.
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