August 31, 2022 • 48 mins
Juneteenth is a United States Federal holiday to commemorate the freedom of enslaved African-Americans . The celebration is rooted in Texas, taking place on June 19, the date the Emancipation Proclamation was enforced there in 1865.
Nicole A Taylor has written a book of recipes, Watermelon and Red Birds: A Cookbook for Juneteenth and Black Celebrations, designed to help you celebrate Juneteenth to the fullest, but also to use at your celebrations throughout the year.
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Nicole A. Taylor:
- Watermelon & Red Birds: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Watermelon-and-Red-Birds/Nicole-A-Taylor/9781982176211
- Website: http://www.nicoleataylor.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jess (00:14):
Hi, it's Jess and you're listening to or watching another
episode of The flaky foodiepodcast, the only show where the
discussion is delicious and asalways, there's chatter to chew
on. On today's episode I want totalk with Nicole Taylor. She's
the author of Watermelon &Redbirds, a Juneteenth cookbook.
(00:36):
Now, you may be wondering, it' sSeptember, what can I possibly
get out of a Juneteenthcookbook? And the answer is
quite a bit. The holiday comingup, Labor Day, is the last
hurrah of summer and thiscookbook is all about embracing
the wonderfulness that is summerproduce. So you're gonna want to
(00:57):
learn more about this cookbookand possibly get it before your
next Labor Day Shindig. So kickback and relax. After a brief
announcement. We're gonna jumpright into my interview with
Nicole.
(01:20):
Okay, let's jump right into someannouncements and housekeeping.
I only have one announcement andcall to action today before we
jump into the meat of theinterview with Nicole, and that
is to please look up and jointhe Cultured Cookbook Club on
Facebook. The Cultured CookbookClub is the perfect place to get
(01:41):
the dish on the latest cookbookswritten by authors of color. So
come on and join you get theopportunity to vote on and
choose the cookbook that wediscuss each month. And at the
end of the month. There's avirtual discussion. You don't
even have to get out of yourPJs, where we discuss the book
we talk about what we've madefrom the book. It's just an all
(02:01):
around good time, good vibes. Soif that interests you, go to
Facebook and search for theCultured Cookbook Club. So make
sure that you join. Okay after abrief message from our partners.
We're gonna jump right into ourinterview with Nicole A. Taylor,
stay tuned.
(02:24):
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to the show.
(03:16):
Today I have with me Nicole A.
Taylor. She's an accomplishedfood writer and author. She's
been nominated for one of themost prestigious awards in the
culinary world, a James Beardaward. and she's the author of
three cookbooks Up South, the OGcookbook, and the cookbook that
we're going to talk about todayis the cookbook for Juneteenth,
Watermelon and Redbirds. NowI've enjoyed thumbing through
(03:39):
this, but kind of how did thiscookbook come to be?
Nicole A. Taylor (03:46):
Jess, thanks so much for having me on the
podcast. Wow, this cookbook.
It's fun. Because there are twoversions story right. Versus
that, you know, over the lastdecade plus I've been
celebrating Juneteenth andwriting about Juneteenth or
producing content aroundJuneteenth. And my agent
(04:06):
basically gave me the nudge andsaid this would be a great
cookbook. It was around 2018when she said this, and I
started in earnest working onthat book. That's one. Story
number two is that so manyanecdotes and things that I
talked about in the essays andhad notes in this cookbook are
(04:27):
centered around Juneteenth, butthey're centered around how I
entertained people. How I'vehosted people and celebrated in
the summertime, since you know,I was in my 20s, so you talking
about 20 plus years. So thiscookbook has been in me for a
(04:48):
long time and it's the way thatI cook during the summer months.
it's the way that sometimesthroughout the year, and how I
celebrate important days likeJuneteenth or special occasions
in life and in my family andfriends lives.
Jess (05:06):
Awesome. So tell me a little bit more about your
background as a person. I knowfrom your book up south that was
kind of inspired by your move toBrooklyn. You grew up kind of in
Athens and Atlanta, Georgia. Sodeep southern roots. Can you
tell me more about that? Like,how did you start cooking?
Nicole A. Taylor (05:24):
Yeah, so I grew up in a college town
Athens, Georgia. I think I heardyou say before you are you in
Tallahassee? Yes. Tallahasseeis, much like Athens, the whole
entire city revolves around theUniversity of Georgia, I
Jess (05:41):
can definitely understand that.
Nicole A. Taylor (05:42):
Yeah, the students are a big part of life.
Here. Athens is 60 miles northof Atlanta. I grew up in a
working class, they my motherworked for chicken poultry, for
more than 40 years. But I alsowas raised by my two aunts and
uncles in what I call the homesin a neighborhood that is now
(06:05):
called Chicopee-Dudley. It is aneighborhood where I saw black
people and black lives in a veryinspiring, positive, fun loving
way. My next door neighborbecame the first black city
council woman in Athens, MiriamMoore, my neighbor across the
(06:30):
street worked at the cleanersfor like four years, you move up
the street a bit, some of themost engaging and popular black
school teachers lived in myneighborhood. So I grew up
seeing black life in many, manyways. And black men and black
(06:53):
women taking care of theirfamilies and taking care of
their neighborhoods. I learnedhow to cook by watching people,
right? I'm the person that Ifeel like if I sit down at you
just make something and I watchyou closely more than one or two
times, I can almost recreatethat I will pay attention to
(07:19):
little things like how you moveand how you do things, and learn
to cook as a young person, ateenager, I can or was making
food or getting in trouble forhaving the oven or the stove on
when he's home. And finally,everybody's like, just let her
do her thing. So yeah, that's mybackground. I mean, I left
(07:46):
Athens and went to college inAtlanta University. And I
recently wrote about how Athensand Atlanta in form, the way I
eat and the way I work for resi.
resi is a reservation app thatwe use to make reservations most
popular restaurants around thecountry. And they have beautiful
(08:08):
editorial side. And I got writeabout how growing up in Athens
and becoming a young adult inAtlanta really shaped how I view
food, how I make food and how Ieat out. So yeah, I lived in
Atlanta for a bit and then movedto New York in 2008. And I
(08:29):
realized like, Oh, I could be afull time, food person. And so
in to the 2008 I moved, or myhusband and I moved to New York
City. But I definitely wasn'tcalling myself a food writer. I
knew I was obsessed with food. Ikinda was thinking I could do a
(08:52):
career food, but I wasn't sure.
But what I did start doing thesame thing I did in Atlanta, I
had this long list ofrestaurants and places that I
wanted to try or markets Iwanted to visit and I was
working at a nonprofit when Ifirst an environmental
(09:13):
nonprofit, and I would get offwork and I would you know even
if I didn't have money to eat ata spot I would at least just go
out and look at the menu or walkin order drink order one app. So
I immerse myself in New YorkCity food culture on my own kind
(09:33):
of self made start doing apodcast same thing. I I've
taught myself a lot you know Icame up as they say through the
mud and in food media. But hereI am, you know, I did it. I
would say the non traditionalway for a long time I was aching
(09:56):
and trying to work at one of theglossy food magazines. And now
doesn't even matter. They don't,they don't even exist barely,
you know, but um, I, I amblessed to be able to have at
this point, start a career inearnest in like 2008. And now,
(10:16):
you know, on the other side, Ihave three cookbooks I've
written for, you know, prettymuch every major food
publication, you know,newspapers, such as New York
Times, and I've been able towrite about Black culture
mainly, but I've written aboutother things as well like maple
sugar. I've written about someof my favorite restaurants
(10:36):
opening for food and wine, thefly in Bedford Stuyvesant,
Brooklyn. Sothat's, that's kind of the girl
from you know, small town,Georgia, how she, you know, rose
up through the ranks of foodmedia.
Jess (10:51):
You mentioned that you watched your family members cook
when you were growing up. And sowas it was there a lot of
entertaining like you have inthe Juneteenth cookbook that you
kind of modeled your recipesafter or was this something that
you kind of learned being out onwas
Nicole A. Taylor (11:07):
funny as you asked that question, because I
immediately started thinkingabout my cousin Tammy Gartrell
growing up, she's one of myfavorite cousins. She's 10 years
older than me. And her hermother and father, Tom and Bunny
Gartrell, they I mentioned themin my first book, and I
mentioned them in the Juneteenthcookbook, they worked at a
sorority house for more than 50years as cooks. And they were
(11:30):
the house, in my family in ourcommunity where all of the
hosting the parties, the familyget together happened. I learned
how to make people feel good howto make my house, their house,
from watching them. You know,they were the ultimate hosts,
(11:55):
they were the ultimate peoplewho not only fix you have a
whole meal, people would justshow up and all of a sudden a
whole meal would appear. Butthey also knew how to pull the
brown liquor out. Theyunderstood how to be a place for
the preacher and how to be aplace for the cousin who's
always drunk who was sloppydrunk, how to entertain him and
(12:19):
feed him as well. So I would sayhands down. They were more like
us in office to me. They'reactually my mom's first cousins.
They've since transition. But Iwould say that is where I
learned how to provide a safespace, a place of love, a place
of joy and a place of pure love.
I learned from them.
Jess (12:42):
Awesome. So about Juneteenth. You mentioned that
you got the idea for thiscookbook, and when your
publisher kind of mentioned itto you, so did you celebrate
Juneteenth a lot before then ordid you just kind of start
looking into Juneteenth once yougot the the notion? Oh, no,
Nicole A. Taylor (12:59):
no, no, I was celebrating Joon Chang. I was
celebrating Juneteenth because Iattended a Juneteenth festival
outdoor festival in Brooklynmore than 10 years ago. And it
was in the middle of the FortGreene neighborhood and apart it
(13:21):
was a black nonprofitorganization doing their 13th
annual Juneteenth Celebration.
There was a stage there wereyoung people performing, you
know, a band, there were foodvendors. And there was a black
man dressed and cowboy is higherwith the pony giving kids pony
rides and the kids were sohappy. I have one photo from
(13:42):
that day and I have a big smileon my face. I'm like, wow, I
want to celebrate Juneteenth, Iwant to make Juneteenth a part
of my annual tradition. Andthat's when I started doing it.
And then I started writing aboutit. And that's when my agent
said, You should write a book onJuneteenth. And I actually
deleted her email because Isaid, I'm not from Texas. I'm
not the person in writing. And Ithought the holiday was too
(14:06):
niche. But she, you know, shesaw something she saw that the
importance of the holiday. Andbut no, I've been celebrating
it. I've celebrated it on arooftop with some of my dearest
friends. And we had you know,real fancy food well fancy
(14:26):
meaning like it was plated andwe pass it around. I've helped
Brownsville Community Center andculinary cafe, host the June
team, event and tour with ChefBJ Dennis I've done over the
last decade. I have a whole listof every single thing I've done
(14:46):
on Juneteenth, but not neverwith the intent that I was gonna
write a book about it. I didn'teven think that I had enough
recipes or enough stories totalk about Juneteenth. But when
I sat down I'm like, oh, nah, Iprobably got enough for like,
three books.
Jess (15:07):
But this is definitely like a methodology where you can
cook for a meal from beginningto end for almost every black
occasion. There's a recipe here.
How did you celebrate Juneteenththis year? How did I steal what
was on the table?
Nicole A. Taylor (15:20):
I'll start what was on the table. So I
celebrated Juneteenth in myhometown. And I did that on
purpose. There were plenty oforganizations who were emailing
saying, Hey, come here, but Ireally wanted to ground myself
in in home. And I wanted toground myself in the place where
(15:44):
I spent most of the time writingthis cookbook. So for food,
there are friends that came fromout of town. So one of my
friends, Kia, who owns milkglass pie, she bought a bunch of
pies. So the day of June Ting.
In the evening or afternoon, wehad an outdoor pie social, which
I thought was really cool. Andit wasn't even on purpose. It
(16:07):
was kind of like she was likeI'm wearing a bunch of pies. So
she had like a buttermilk pie.
Raspberry like a peach pie. Itwas scones cookies, and I was
like, let's bring it outside. Sowe had an outdoor pie social and
the day before duties, theactual June 19. That Saturday on
(16:31):
the eighth 18th. We grilled outmy husband got on the grill, I
micromanage him. On the grill.
We had chicken burgers, which isone of my favorite recipes, the
actual recipe that I did acooking demo on the Today Show
with Craig Melvin. So we had youknow, normal cookout barbecue
stuff on the 18th. Also thatwhole weekend starting on it
(16:53):
Thursday, if I go backwards, Idid a book signing at the only
locally owned bookstore here inAthens. It was like 103 degrees.
So we had Yeah, we had to changevenues because originally it was
going to be outside and we wentto inside the new but one of my
favorite kombucha companies herein Athens did a hibiscus float.
(17:14):
So we had hibiscus come Buchawith this coconut sorbet on top
and it totally was like you knowto read punch went your
grandmama your aunt put thatsorbet on the time. So that was
super fun. And then that nextday that Friday, the plate sale
which is a black own dinner,lunch experience run by Mike and
(17:38):
Sheree the sheets they hosted ahappy hour for me in honor of
the book. So we had likehomemade bologna sandwiches and
happier we had drinks winesponsored by black girl magic
wine, their sparkling Brut. Thewhole weekend was like June 18
foods red punch, cookout grillfood. It was it was so
(18:00):
beautiful. I'm like was thatjust a month ago? Can I recreate
that man?
Jess (18:09):
Yes. Juneteenth part 2/4 of July. Jyoti's Part Three
Labor Day listen, you can justkeep it going.
Nicole A. Taylor (18:18):
I mean, listen, and that has, what you
just described literally is whatI did this past Fourth of July.
It was daunting part two. Andliterally, I saw two old friends
that I hadn't seen in definitely10 plus years and saw their
kids. Last time I saw the kidsthey were in like car seats. And
(18:40):
now Now they're teenagers. So Ihad a very beautiful July 4
weekend, which was my dreamteam. Part Two, it was
bittersweet. You know, it wasJuneteenth was very similar to
some of the things that I writeabout in the duty book where you
(19:02):
know, black people we alwayshave this juxtaposition with joy
and sorrow right or, or cravinggreat a liberty and all its
bitter sweetness. And that'swhat this past weekend was like,
for me it was it was joyfulbecause I got to relax and spend
(19:23):
time with friends. But it wasn'tlost on me like all the things
that have been happening overthe last two weeks. And so, you
know, for me, it was importantto take this past weekend and
not say I'm not celebratingFourth of July and I can't
necessarily say that I wascelebrating Fourth of July but I
(19:43):
was celebrating the spirit of myancestors and that is wanting a
better life for me and that lifethat better life includes rest,
restoration, a better word tosay restoration, resilience and
personal freedom and liberty. Sothat's what I did this past
(20:04):
weekend with plenty of food.
Jess (20:05):
Do you feel like any extra pressure since you're no the
author of this Juneteethcookbooks? You know, you've
become kind of representationalof the holiday. Since you have
this body of work out. Do youfeel any additional pressure to
kind of to bring the heat onJuneteenth or any other kind of
black holiday? Yeah, for thatmatter? Yes.
Nicole A. Taylor (20:28):
Listen to reasons why. I feel pressure
because, listen, I wrote thefirst cookbook dedicated to the
Juneteenth holiday by a majorpublisher, right. I know that
there are plenty of peopleprobably have written community
(20:48):
books around your teeth or havewritten about Juneteenth. Now,
some of my colleagues likeDonald battle Pierce, she's
written about Juneteenth, andTony, tiptoe, Martin. But
there's pressure because I amwriting about Juneteenth through
a different lens from a verymodern lens. And I want to make
sure that my recipes arereflective of the past, but also
(21:12):
look for look towards thefuture. So that's a lot of
pressure, because people, youknow, people critique you. And
it's pressure for me, becausepeople made my recipes, and they
want to be like, did this tastethe same? You know, and
ultimately, when I'm making foodfor my family, and friends, I
want them to love the food. So Ithink regardless if it was a
(21:35):
cookbook or not, then Idefinitely always have pressure
to make great food, because Iwant people to, to have a
memorable experience whenthey're at my home. But then
adding a cookbook on top, youknow, people they want to
sometime most times now,definitely over the past month
or so they've showed up andthey're like, Is this from the
(21:57):
cookbook? Wow, it's more thanone thing from the cookbook.
I've always done it because thestuff in the cookbook is what I
make. I mean, I can do it. I cando it by rope. So yeah, there is
pressure. There's gonna bepressure probably for the next
several years on June teens, forme to show up in a way where I'm
(22:19):
giving to other people. And I'mokay with
Jess (22:21):
it. So how does your research process for the for the
book go? I know you've said youalready kind of read wrote about
duties before. But you know, notbeing necessarily from Texas,
where the holiday originated?
Right. How long did that take?
Before the cookbook came? Well,
Nicole A. Taylor (22:37):
I will say a few things is that, you know,
June 19 1865, also known asJuneteenth is a holiday that's
rooted in Texas holiday that,you know, got it's got his legs
in Galveston, but we know thatblack people left the American
South and more specificallyblack people left Texas. And
(23:00):
when they left Texas, they tookJuneteenth with them. So you
find people from Texas whocelebrated Juneteenth for
generations, you find them inAtlanta, you find them in LA,
you find them in Oakland, youfind them in Seattle. And so I
spoke with people who wantspecific the person I spoke with
(23:23):
was Marguerite Hannah, born andraised in Galveston, lives in
Atlanta, went to school inHoward, from a very prominent
black family in Galveston, hergrandfather was Mr. TD
Armstrong, who owned a pharmacytheir own real estate and was
(23:44):
you know, a contributor to blacklife and culture. And Galveston,
but I spoke with her, she's theperson who asked to speak on
her. I'm like, okay, she gave mepermission to write this book,
right, and saying that it'sokay. And also to she gave me
(24:08):
permission to do things the wayI want it to be. And so I spoke
to people, people who celebratedJuneteenth who were from Texas,
I also did a lot of reading fromcookbooks and many things that
weren't cookbooks, looking forcultural cues about Texas food
about black Texans. AboutJuneteenth. I also looked at
(24:31):
Black cookbooks, to see thecorrelation between foods,
traditional foods people ate atJuneteenth and just general
black what I call celebrationfoods. What do we eat and
celebratory times, I listened toa lot of music as well looked at
a lot of art. When I when Icould, you know, because I
(24:52):
started deep research in thisbook, in the pandemic, right in
2020 in the summer of 2010. Tome, and I was working on this
book all the way up until Marchwhen he went to the printer
March of this year. I have asection in the back of the book
called notes on Juneteenth. Icall it the poor man's
bibliography. And it's not eventhe extensive list of who I
(25:15):
talked to what I read, forinstance, I read and went
through how to be by HarrietCole. That book came out in the
early 2000s. And she has liketwo paragraphs talking about
Juneteenth celebrations. So Iwent to my shelf, I went to my
shelf and just kind of looked atBlack books that I thought would
be some references aroundJuneteenth. But the research was
not just one road, there were somany different paths that led to
(25:41):
creating chapters one like thefestival and fairs chapter, I
was really interested increating a chapter that focused
on what I call Americanasummertime foods, which are fair
foods like Famo, Cades, andfried fish and shrimp where you
(26:02):
find black coastal cities,particularly like Galveston.
That's where they had a duty,they will have fried fish fried
shrimp, you see fish fries tohappen all over the country. But
when I started researching aboutthe fairs and festivals, I went
down this rabbit hole of readingabout the desegregation of the
(26:23):
Texas State Fair in Dallas.
Whoa, I could like do a wholearticle about the Texas State
Fair, I ended up you know,writing an essay that kind of
gave you the gist of thedesegregation of the fair. But
yeah, that research, I was likeresearching that fair for like,
a whole week. And I'm like,wait, I'm like, wait, wait,
wait, wait. Come on back.
(26:45):
Because I'm not I'm not ahistorian. You know, I'm a
person who is a master home cookthat writes about Black culture.
And I like to say I'm leavingbread crumbs for people to do a
deeper dive. But yeah, theresearch is very exhilarating.
For me, when you
Jess (27:01):
were coming up with recipes was one to where you
were kind of putting it togetherfor the book and you're like,
that's Juneteenth in a nutshellkind of envelops how I like to
celebrate it how I've celebrateit was one or maybe two or three
recipes that you feel kind ofencapsulate your question.
Nicole A. Taylor (27:20):
I feel like the robe the all purpose wrote
in the book is really Jim tingto me, and I will say because
ribs and barbecue, barbecuedfood, or cookout foods, you
can't have Juneteenth withoutthe smoke, right? People people
(27:40):
want a burger people want ribs.
People want meat, they want tobe outside, they want to taste
that smoke. And so this allpurpose rub. I have perfected
and tweaked it over the years.
But I feel like it's the thingthat I'm always going to have in
the summertime when I'm grillingfood out, you know, my husband
(28:01):
was actually putting the foodout and I'm micromanaging him.
I'm always gonna create myrobes, and use them the whole
summer. So that Rob which is inthe front part of the chapter is
crucial to me telling my storyof duty, and desserts. Oh my
gosh, I am a dessert person. SoI have two new chapters
(28:24):
dedicated to dessert. And I feellike ice cream is a story that
so many people making homemadeice cream. People from the South
have a certain age. I've gottenthree different people tell me
the story of in the summertime,they would have a big wooden ice
(28:45):
cream maker with the rock iceand their grandparents or their
family members will let all thekids you know, turn the turn and
it will be on duty. So I'veheard this story from three
different people as I've beenpromoting his book. And it was
just confirmation like having awhole chapter and having
homemade ice cream in this bookin my way in a very modern way
(29:08):
also speaks to the traditions ofso many black people across the
United States and particularlyblack Texans who had and enjoyed
homemade ice cream on June 18.
The honey vanilla ice cream is abeautiful ODE TO DO 10 stories
of ice cream making and thefuture of desserts on June 18.
Jess (29:33):
So something that I noticed from the book was the
beautiful use of summer producewhich you know are from Florida.
We have wonderful produce herein Florida, especially during
the summertime so there's thingslike fresh corn and zucchini and
eggplant. So how important isfresh fresh produce kinda to the
celebration or
Nicole A. Taylor (29:53):
oh my gosh, like when I was growing up the
summertime meant that the fruitman was going to come through
the neighborhood He does nothave watermelon. And the grown
ups run outside because ofvegetables slash fruit man will
come and they wanted to get thesummer bounty offer off of the
vegetable man's truck, right.
And I remember going to thegrocery store in the summertime.
(30:17):
And soon as you walk in, you seethese big cards with watermelons
coming out, right? And you knewthat when someone bought their
watermelon, and you got home,you just weren't gonna cut a
watermelon for one person, youknow, it became a communal
thing. And also in thesummertime, you know, you're
(30:37):
driving somewhere and there's aroadside stand and you get corn
and you get tomatoes, or in myneighborhood, everyone had a
garden. And I remember gettingyelled at from neighbors,
because I would cut throughtheir yards to go to my cousins
and past trampling their theirsummertime fruits and
vegetables. So it is a part of,of American culture, the
(31:01):
American sales culture to havetomatoes, corn, eggplant, fresh
herbs, blackberries,raspberries, strawberries in the
summertime. And so I startedthis book, the ideation of this
book thinking about what are thefruits and vegetables that I can
(31:21):
recall that naturally come to mymind? When I think of summer
months, and when I think ofJuneteenth. And I literally
started a spreadsheet, right.
And from this spreadsheet, Iwanted to like how can I tell
the story of the summer bounty?
How can I tell the story ofsomeone's great who always kept
the garden? Or how can I tellthe story of someone always
(31:46):
stopping at a farm stand. Sothat's what you see throughout
the book than the recipes. Yousee fruits that conjure up a
memory. You also see a foodpyramid in the beginning of the
book that literally gives you anexample of you know, fruits,
vegetables and kuchi minds thatyou should be shopping for for
(32:08):
this cookbook, the fruits andvegetables, summertime fruits
and vegetable repair my when Iwas creating these recipes. So
Jess (32:17):
let's talk a little bit more about that food pyramid.
You did a wonderful interviewwith the National African
American History Museum. And youtalk a little bit about how
there's almost like a dualitybetween your food pyramid and
some of W. E. B. Dubois work youtell us a little bit more about
Nicole A. Taylor (32:35):
such a coincidence. I'm the Creative
Director of my book is GeorgeMcCalman. George is a San
Francisco based illustrator andartists. He has designed a few
cookbooks, probably one of themost notable cookbooks he's
designed this year is black foodby Brian Terry. But he also I
was lucky enough to have himdesign my book. So the cover of
(32:59):
my book, The Color, illustrationillustrations in my book. It's
all George. And I had this ideathat I wanted to do a food
pyramid and George was like,Okay, tell me what you want to
do. He was like better yet. Justdraw it and send me a picture.
I'm like, I can't draw. I'm notan artist. But I just, you know,
Sam, a little thing and mymoleskin. And he use colored
(33:23):
pencils, and the first printingof the book. And then we just
put the words on there. Now, inthe second printing of the book
that's supposed to happen. Hehas some hand drawn words are
the fruits and the vegetablesand the herbs. And then we print
out this five by seven archivalprint of the pyramid and as
(33:47):
George and so when we wereprinting this out, the book had
long gone to the printer. Thebook was out. I was just looking
through some of my husband'sarts books. And he has his book
that chronicles Dr. WEB DuBoisis research around black
Atlantans black people inGeorgia, at the turn of the
(34:12):
century. And he has all thesediagrams, their pyramids, their
circles, and I opened it up. Andliterally, there's a pyramid,
colorful, that looks almostsimilar to what George and I put
together and I send it to Georgeand he's like, Hi. My husband
said was Jordan inspired bythis. So I sent him a text. He's
like, No, but oh, he's like,it's so funny. He's like, I've
(34:35):
been saying for years, I'm gonnabuy that book and I haven't
bought it. He's like, I'm goingto buy it now. I was like, yeah,
that's totally the ancestorsspeaking through me. But it is a
coincidence that they look somuch alike in terms of color, in
terms of, you know, the simpleidea that we were conveying. So,
(34:57):
yeah, I'm happy seem to havebeen on that same wavelength
with Dr. He'd be the voice
Jess (35:04):
is amazing. So the title of the book also kind of has
mentioned of the answer, so it'skind of hidden within it
watermelon and Redbirds, can youtell me a little bit more about
the title of that book and thebook and what it means. Yeah,
Nicole A. Taylor (35:18):
I mean, watermelon. We talked a bit
about it, like, you know, what amelon to me means. Summertime is
signifies Americana. It alsosignifies you know, black people
in a very positive way. AndRedbirds. Wow, I get shields.
Every time I get this question,I just get chills thinking about
(35:40):
it. My mother used to tell megrowing up, she would be like,
look outside, look outside, lookoutside, and she'd be like,
there's a red bird. There'ssomebody that died in our family
coming back to say hello, blowthem a kiss. And I always will
see a red bird and be like, Oh,that's somebody my family coming
back and say hello, is goodluck. I remember this story. I
(36:03):
had to be a little girl. Iremember that story. Right? When
I started to think about whatthe title of this book should
be. I never forgot the store.
But it wasn't on my mind. And Inever really saw read borrows a
lot in New York. And I was like,this needs to be the title of my
book. It is the perfectsummation of the past the
(36:27):
present and the future ofJuneteenth. And when I came back
to Georgia to create this book,and to take a break from the
COVID 19 pandemic, and I lookout my window, and I have a
stressful day, I will see a redbird. I see so many red birds
now. And then just like layeringand flying around, and I always
(36:49):
just go Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you ancestors. And evennow I started to call out
people's names like is thattrue? Is that you investigate?
And so yeah, the title isspecial to me.
Jess (37:03):
Yes. So you just mentioned at Bessie, you mentioned in the
interview also about how shekind of taught you to cook or
you watched her cook and shekind of supervised your first
recipe in the kitchen, which wasfried corn. So do you remember
that recipe and how it tasted?
Do you still make well let
Nicole A. Taylor (37:24):
me because I don't think Okay Do not say she
supervised that. So my BessieGoolsbee, she lived to be almost
100 years old. I mean she's mygreat aunt. She's more like a
grandmother to me. And it'sfunny because she was probably
was matriarch of our family.
Everyone looked at her but shecould cook the first thing that
I saw her cook and I recreate itwas actually a poached egg to
(37:44):
make posted all the time she hada cheap really cook she could
make great yeast rolls, and shedrink a coca cola every day. But
I learned how to I don't I can'trecall if she taught me how to
make fried corn or where Ilearned it from but yes, I was
young I wasn't even a teenagerand I would cut the fat back off
(38:08):
and I ended would have that bigblack cast iron pan and I would
you know take the fat back I'llput it on a piece of paper let
it drain out that was gonna beon this on the side. And you
know shuck the corn cut the cornoff and fry the corn Some people
call that cream corn now butyes, I still make that it was I
(38:29):
have a recipe in my firstcookbook. But I don't I just
funny. I think I learned how tomake fried corn just seeing
other women doing the samething. I don't think I don't
remember my best to be makingfried corn that much
Jess (38:44):
for your son. I know he's a little one now. But do you
have plans to kind of have himwatch you in the kitchen?
Nicole A. Taylor (38:53):
Now? Yeah, okay. Is three and a half years
old. His name is Garvey. He I amso proud when we go to the
grocery store and he comes inthe kitchen and he sees the
avocado he goes avocado or he'llget up in the morning and he's
like, What do you want forbreakfast? And he's like mango
(39:14):
and I don't have any mangoes.
And he'll just start calling outfruits and vegetables because he
sees all the fruits andvegetables on the counter. So
it's not foreign to him right.
And so I'm proud of that. And heloves making eggs. He loves eggs
and so I let him crack his owneggs. Sometimes they fall on the
(39:35):
floor and then shales get in itbut I lamb crackers on it and
make him scrambled eggs it Ithink it starts now and he
definitely will see a photo ofsomeone in the kitchen and he'll
go mommy
Jess (39:51):
does anybody in the kitchen as mommy
Nicole A. Taylor (39:53):
says he's seen me in the kitchen so much and
I'm proud of that and I hope isMy, my, my prayer that he will
create memories of family andfriends and food the same way I
have and he'll have you know,these three good books as a
guide to enjoyment and tolaughter.
Jess (40:17):
So we talked briefly about Powell, the title watermelon and
web birds, especially the webpart, red birds part kind of has
June teens past, present andfuture kind of wrapped up in it.
What do you kind of envision thefuture of June to be right now
we're kind of in the state wheremore people are finding out
(40:38):
about it across the nation whomay not have celebrated it
before. How do you kind ofenvision the future
Nicole A. Taylor (40:44):
freaking excited about Juneteenth I, I
feel that Juneteenth will alwaysbe ours. And when I say that,
what I mean is that no one cantake black American story of
family can take them from usyour story about your family.
(41:07):
And growing up in Florida orgrowing up in Milwaukee or me
growing up in Athens. No one canstrip that away from me. And I'm
mostly excited about peopleasking folks in their family,
did you celebrate Juneteenth ortell me about Auntie Susie?
Sweet potato salad? Why don'tknow about you know how to make
(41:31):
it. I want to learn how to make,I see that that's what
Juneteenth is going to look likeis going to be people, black
people digging deeper into theirfamily stories. And with those
family stories comes food andfood traditions. And so I'm most
excited about that. All theother stuff to me is just noise,
(41:53):
right? Because I know that blackpeople, there's so many things
in our culture that have stoodthe test of time. And I know in
my hearts that Juneteenth is anAmerican holiday, it is a black
American holiday. And the futureis right. I'm also excited about
the plethora of June teencookbooks that are going to come
(42:13):
after mine. Like hello peoplelike there should be an entire
June 18 cocktail book or dessertbook and it should be by
someone's from Texas who didcelebrating it for Juneteenth
for centuries, excuse me, orcenters not the wrong word. It
was the wrong word for decades.
I'm excited about that. Sothings are bright for Juneteenth
Jess (42:36):
for sure a lot of African Americans now are going into
meatless diets vegan diets Ihave for one, I'm pescetarian.
And I'm very grateful for theinclusion of the zucchini dogs,
and also the meatless bakedbeans.
Nicole A. Taylor (42:50):
This weekend, people love them.
Jess (42:52):
So do you kind of picture more of like a plant based
culinary experience for black
Nicole A. Taylor (42:57):
people? I think that more people, more
African Americans areincorporating plant based or
vegetarian side dishes or maindishes into their celebrations,
I think is becoming just a mainthing for me. I always keep
impossible burgers in myfreezer. So if when I'm cooking
out for a celebration orJuneteenth and find like forget
(43:20):
that someone is vegan, I canpull out an Impossible Burger
but even more so. My mushrooms Ialways always have what I call
fancy mushrooms in some form fora celebration, you know, I will
fry them up and use the samebatter that I use for my fish
(43:42):
sometimes I will use my dry ruband put them on the grill as you
see in the cookout and barbecuesection. Yeah, I'm always
thinking about how toincorporate vegetarian and vegan
dishes into my celebrationsbecause I have so many friends
(44:04):
who are you know, eating lessmeat and or have decided to
mostly eat a plant based diet soit's natural to me and I also
was vegetarian for about 10years were pescetarian and my
husband was vegetarian so it'seasy for me just just to do it
not even think about it everynow and then I will slip up and
(44:26):
like have like a wish our sauceand something and then I forget
like oh wait the fish and butyou can buy you know non. What I
wouldn't want to call it veganWorcestershire sauce. I guess
it's this wizard. Yeah. So thereare plenty of ways to switch it
out. But to answer yourquestion, yes. People are
(44:47):
already people already doing it.
Jess (44:49):
So beyond June teen how do you kind of envision your
cookbook being used through likethe other month throughout the
year? Well,
Nicole A. Taylor (44:56):
I mean, it's the summertime we outside
hashtag And yeah, I mean for methis summer, I'm mostly excited
about going on vacation withfriends. And I'm excited about,
you know, going on a hike withfriends. And I'm excited about
(45:19):
being back in New York and doinga blog party. And so for those
three things that I justmentioned, you can use
watermelon and Redbirds, themargarita meets the maroon
margarita mix is so perfect tomix up, put it in your cooler,
have your eyes ready, asksomeone to bring the booze if
(45:42):
you're drinking booze or asksomeone to bring the tonic and
you just put the cup, put alittle mix in the cup, put your
tonic in, or put your Dillionand if that's what you want,
shake it up, and boom, you havea cocktail, you can do that on a
camping trip or outdoor picnicat a park. When I'm going on
vacation in August, I'm alreadythinking about like, Okay, I'm
(46:03):
gonna be on Martha's Vineyard,it's gonna be a ton of fish. I'm
gonna do the Caraway butterfishat our rental house for everyone
is easy. I can just buy thecaraway seeds and the butter.
And I'll get the guys to cutthat out. There are so many we
outside things that arehappening this summer that you
can bring my recipes to, or youcan just make them at home while
(46:26):
you're chilling. These next twoand a half months, or three
months of warm weather,depending on where you are
longer. We should be enjoyingourselves. We should like turn
the TV off. Close our phones.
Forget about social media andlike be with family and friends.
Like it's been a crazy two and ahalf years yours, right? We've
(46:47):
just basically been scared totouch anyone to be around
people. So I'm excited to safelybe gathering with family and
friends at Eton. Well,
Jess (47:01):
yes, but we thank you so much for being a part of the
show. Nicole, I have thoroughlyenjoyed having you here this
conversation. I've thoroughlyenjoyed the cookbook. But again,
thank you so much for being somuch.
Nicole A. Taylor (47:15):
I'm a bit rusty. It's been two weeks since
I've been on the I've been onthe interview circuit but I'm
I'm happy to be on your podcast.
Yes.
Jess (47:25):
So people kind of want to follow you and what you have
coming up next. Where can theyfollow you?
Nicole A. Taylor (47:31):
I can be found everywhere on social media food
culture is C ULTUR is T Yeah,I'm gonna be outside all summer
long.
Jess (47:45):
And if you want to buy the book, you can find it anywhere
you find books, especially atyour local independent or black
own bookstores. So make sure youcheck out watermelon and red
birds and again, thank you somuch for being here I am just
with the flaky foodie. Remember,eat something delicious this
week and treat this episode likegossip or the gospel and tell
(48:08):
somebody about it. All right,everybody. Thanks
Hi, it's Jess and you're listening to or watching another
episode of The flaky foodiepodcast, the only show where the
discussion is delicious and asalways, there's chatter to chew
on. On today's episode I want totalk with Nicole Taylor. She's
the author of Watermelon &Redbirds, a Juneteenth cookbook.
(00:36):
Now, you may be wondering, it' sSeptember, what can I possibly
get out of a Juneteenthcookbook? And the answer is
quite a bit. The holiday comingup, Labor Day, is the last
hurrah of summer and thiscookbook is all about embracing
the wonderfulness that is summerproduce. So you're gonna want to
(00:57):
learn more about this cookbookand possibly get it before your
next Labor Day Shindig. So kickback and relax. After a brief
announcement. We're gonna jumpright into my interview with
Nicole.
(01:20):
Okay, let's jump right into someannouncements and housekeeping.
I only have one announcement andcall to action today before we
jump into the meat of theinterview with Nicole, and that
is to please look up and jointhe Cultured Cookbook Club on
Facebook. The Cultured CookbookClub is the perfect place to get
(01:41):
the dish on the latest cookbookswritten by authors of color. So
come on and join you get theopportunity to vote on and
choose the cookbook that wediscuss each month. And at the
end of the month. There's avirtual discussion. You don't
even have to get out of yourPJs, where we discuss the book
we talk about what we've madefrom the book. It's just an all
(02:01):
around good time, good vibes. Soif that interests you, go to
Facebook and search for theCultured Cookbook Club. So make
sure that you join. Okay after abrief message from our partners.
We're gonna jump right into ourinterview with Nicole A. Taylor,
stay tuned.
(02:24):
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(02:49):
advantage of this very specialoffer. The link is in my show
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www.theflakyfoodie.com/offers.
That's the flakyfoodie.com/offers. And now back
to the show.
(03:16):
Today I have with me Nicole A.
Taylor. She's an accomplishedfood writer and author. She's
been nominated for one of themost prestigious awards in the
culinary world, a James Beardaward. and she's the author of
three cookbooks Up South, the OGcookbook, and the cookbook that
we're going to talk about todayis the cookbook for Juneteenth,
Watermelon and Redbirds. NowI've enjoyed thumbing through
(03:39):
this, but kind of how did thiscookbook come to be?
Nicole A. Taylor (03:46):
Jess, thanks so much for having me on the
podcast. Wow, this cookbook.
It's fun. Because there are twoversions story right. Versus
that, you know, over the lastdecade plus I've been
celebrating Juneteenth andwriting about Juneteenth or
producing content aroundJuneteenth. And my agent
(04:06):
basically gave me the nudge andsaid this would be a great
cookbook. It was around 2018when she said this, and I
started in earnest working onthat book. That's one. Story
number two is that so manyanecdotes and things that I
talked about in the essays andhad notes in this cookbook are
(04:27):
centered around Juneteenth, butthey're centered around how I
entertained people. How I'vehosted people and celebrated in
the summertime, since you know,I was in my 20s, so you talking
about 20 plus years. So thiscookbook has been in me for a
(04:48):
long time and it's the way thatI cook during the summer months.
it's the way that sometimesthroughout the year, and how I
celebrate important days likeJuneteenth or special occasions
in life and in my family andfriends lives.
Jess (05:06):
Awesome. So tell me a little bit more about your
background as a person. I knowfrom your book up south that was
kind of inspired by your move toBrooklyn. You grew up kind of in
Athens and Atlanta, Georgia. Sodeep southern roots. Can you
tell me more about that? Like,how did you start cooking?
Nicole A. Taylor (05:24):
Yeah, so I grew up in a college town
Athens, Georgia. I think I heardyou say before you are you in
Tallahassee? Yes. Tallahasseeis, much like Athens, the whole
entire city revolves around theUniversity of Georgia, I
Jess (05:41):
can definitely understand that.
Nicole A. Taylor (05:42):
Yeah, the students are a big part of life.
Here. Athens is 60 miles northof Atlanta. I grew up in a
working class, they my motherworked for chicken poultry, for
more than 40 years. But I alsowas raised by my two aunts and
uncles in what I call the homesin a neighborhood that is now
(06:05):
called Chicopee-Dudley. It is aneighborhood where I saw black
people and black lives in a veryinspiring, positive, fun loving
way. My next door neighborbecame the first black city
council woman in Athens, MiriamMoore, my neighbor across the
(06:30):
street worked at the cleanersfor like four years, you move up
the street a bit, some of themost engaging and popular black
school teachers lived in myneighborhood. So I grew up
seeing black life in many, manyways. And black men and black
(06:53):
women taking care of theirfamilies and taking care of
their neighborhoods. I learnedhow to cook by watching people,
right? I'm the person that Ifeel like if I sit down at you
just make something and I watchyou closely more than one or two
times, I can almost recreatethat I will pay attention to
(07:19):
little things like how you moveand how you do things, and learn
to cook as a young person, ateenager, I can or was making
food or getting in trouble forhaving the oven or the stove on
when he's home. And finally,everybody's like, just let her
do her thing. So yeah, that's mybackground. I mean, I left
(07:46):
Athens and went to college inAtlanta University. And I
recently wrote about how Athensand Atlanta in form, the way I
eat and the way I work for resi.
resi is a reservation app thatwe use to make reservations most
popular restaurants around thecountry. And they have beautiful
(08:08):
editorial side. And I got writeabout how growing up in Athens
and becoming a young adult inAtlanta really shaped how I view
food, how I make food and how Ieat out. So yeah, I lived in
Atlanta for a bit and then movedto New York in 2008. And I
(08:29):
realized like, Oh, I could be afull time, food person. And so
in to the 2008 I moved, or myhusband and I moved to New York
City. But I definitely wasn'tcalling myself a food writer. I
knew I was obsessed with food. Ikinda was thinking I could do a
(08:52):
career food, but I wasn't sure.
But what I did start doing thesame thing I did in Atlanta, I
had this long list ofrestaurants and places that I
wanted to try or markets Iwanted to visit and I was
working at a nonprofit when Ifirst an environmental
(09:13):
nonprofit, and I would get offwork and I would you know even
if I didn't have money to eat ata spot I would at least just go
out and look at the menu or walkin order drink order one app. So
I immerse myself in New YorkCity food culture on my own kind
(09:33):
of self made start doing apodcast same thing. I I've
taught myself a lot you know Icame up as they say through the
mud and in food media. But hereI am, you know, I did it. I
would say the non traditionalway for a long time I was aching
(09:56):
and trying to work at one of theglossy food magazines. And now
doesn't even matter. They don't,they don't even exist barely,
you know, but um, I, I amblessed to be able to have at
this point, start a career inearnest in like 2008. And now,
(10:16):
you know, on the other side, Ihave three cookbooks I've
written for, you know, prettymuch every major food
publication, you know,newspapers, such as New York
Times, and I've been able towrite about Black culture
mainly, but I've written aboutother things as well like maple
sugar. I've written about someof my favorite restaurants
(10:36):
opening for food and wine, thefly in Bedford Stuyvesant,
Brooklyn. Sothat's, that's kind of the girl
from you know, small town,Georgia, how she, you know, rose
up through the ranks of foodmedia.
Jess (10:51):
You mentioned that you watched your family members cook
when you were growing up. And sowas it was there a lot of
entertaining like you have inthe Juneteenth cookbook that you
kind of modeled your recipesafter or was this something that
you kind of learned being out onwas
Nicole A. Taylor (11:07):
funny as you asked that question, because I
immediately started thinkingabout my cousin Tammy Gartrell
growing up, she's one of myfavorite cousins. She's 10 years
older than me. And her hermother and father, Tom and Bunny
Gartrell, they I mentioned themin my first book, and I
mentioned them in the Juneteenthcookbook, they worked at a
sorority house for more than 50years as cooks. And they were
(11:30):
the house, in my family in ourcommunity where all of the
hosting the parties, the familyget together happened. I learned
how to make people feel good howto make my house, their house,
from watching them. You know,they were the ultimate hosts,
(11:55):
they were the ultimate peoplewho not only fix you have a
whole meal, people would justshow up and all of a sudden a
whole meal would appear. Butthey also knew how to pull the
brown liquor out. Theyunderstood how to be a place for
the preacher and how to be aplace for the cousin who's
always drunk who was sloppydrunk, how to entertain him and
(12:19):
feed him as well. So I would sayhands down. They were more like
us in office to me. They'reactually my mom's first cousins.
They've since transition. But Iwould say that is where I
learned how to provide a safespace, a place of love, a place
of joy and a place of pure love.
I learned from them.
Jess (12:42):
Awesome. So about Juneteenth. You mentioned that
you got the idea for thiscookbook, and when your
publisher kind of mentioned itto you, so did you celebrate
Juneteenth a lot before then ordid you just kind of start
looking into Juneteenth once yougot the the notion? Oh, no,
Nicole A. Taylor (12:59):
no, no, I was celebrating Joon Chang. I was
celebrating Juneteenth because Iattended a Juneteenth festival
outdoor festival in Brooklynmore than 10 years ago. And it
was in the middle of the FortGreene neighborhood and apart it
(13:21):
was a black nonprofitorganization doing their 13th
annual Juneteenth Celebration.
There was a stage there wereyoung people performing, you
know, a band, there were foodvendors. And there was a black
man dressed and cowboy is higherwith the pony giving kids pony
rides and the kids were sohappy. I have one photo from
(13:42):
that day and I have a big smileon my face. I'm like, wow, I
want to celebrate Juneteenth, Iwant to make Juneteenth a part
of my annual tradition. Andthat's when I started doing it.
And then I started writing aboutit. And that's when my agent
said, You should write a book onJuneteenth. And I actually
deleted her email because Isaid, I'm not from Texas. I'm
not the person in writing. And Ithought the holiday was too
(14:06):
niche. But she, you know, shesaw something she saw that the
importance of the holiday. Andbut no, I've been celebrating
it. I've celebrated it on arooftop with some of my dearest
friends. And we had you know,real fancy food well fancy
(14:26):
meaning like it was plated andwe pass it around. I've helped
Brownsville Community Center andculinary cafe, host the June
team, event and tour with ChefBJ Dennis I've done over the
last decade. I have a whole listof every single thing I've done
(14:46):
on Juneteenth, but not neverwith the intent that I was gonna
write a book about it. I didn'teven think that I had enough
recipes or enough stories totalk about Juneteenth. But when
I sat down I'm like, oh, nah, Iprobably got enough for like,
three books.
Jess (15:07):
But this is definitely like a methodology where you can
cook for a meal from beginningto end for almost every black
occasion. There's a recipe here.
How did you celebrate Juneteenththis year? How did I steal what
was on the table?
Nicole A. Taylor (15:20):
I'll start what was on the table. So I
celebrated Juneteenth in myhometown. And I did that on
purpose. There were plenty oforganizations who were emailing
saying, Hey, come here, but Ireally wanted to ground myself
in in home. And I wanted toground myself in the place where
(15:44):
I spent most of the time writingthis cookbook. So for food,
there are friends that came fromout of town. So one of my
friends, Kia, who owns milkglass pie, she bought a bunch of
pies. So the day of June Ting.
In the evening or afternoon, wehad an outdoor pie social, which
I thought was really cool. Andit wasn't even on purpose. It
(16:07):
was kind of like she was likeI'm wearing a bunch of pies. So
she had like a buttermilk pie.
Raspberry like a peach pie. Itwas scones cookies, and I was
like, let's bring it outside. Sowe had an outdoor pie social and
the day before duties, theactual June 19. That Saturday on
(16:31):
the eighth 18th. We grilled outmy husband got on the grill, I
micromanage him. On the grill.
We had chicken burgers, which isone of my favorite recipes, the
actual recipe that I did acooking demo on the Today Show
with Craig Melvin. So we had youknow, normal cookout barbecue
stuff on the 18th. Also thatwhole weekend starting on it
(16:53):
Thursday, if I go backwards, Idid a book signing at the only
locally owned bookstore here inAthens. It was like 103 degrees.
So we had Yeah, we had to changevenues because originally it was
going to be outside and we wentto inside the new but one of my
favorite kombucha companies herein Athens did a hibiscus float.
(17:14):
So we had hibiscus come Buchawith this coconut sorbet on top
and it totally was like you knowto read punch went your
grandmama your aunt put thatsorbet on the time. So that was
super fun. And then that nextday that Friday, the plate sale
which is a black own dinner,lunch experience run by Mike and
(17:38):
Sheree the sheets they hosted ahappy hour for me in honor of
the book. So we had likehomemade bologna sandwiches and
happier we had drinks winesponsored by black girl magic
wine, their sparkling Brut. Thewhole weekend was like June 18
foods red punch, cookout grillfood. It was it was so
(18:00):
beautiful. I'm like was thatjust a month ago? Can I recreate
that man?
Jess (18:09):
Yes. Juneteenth part 2/4 of July. Jyoti's Part Three
Labor Day listen, you can justkeep it going.
Nicole A. Taylor (18:18):
I mean, listen, and that has, what you
just described literally is whatI did this past Fourth of July.
It was daunting part two. Andliterally, I saw two old friends
that I hadn't seen in definitely10 plus years and saw their
kids. Last time I saw the kidsthey were in like car seats. And
(18:40):
now Now they're teenagers. So Ihad a very beautiful July 4
weekend, which was my dreamteam. Part Two, it was
bittersweet. You know, it wasJuneteenth was very similar to
some of the things that I writeabout in the duty book where you
(19:02):
know, black people we alwayshave this juxtaposition with joy
and sorrow right or, or cravinggreat a liberty and all its
bitter sweetness. And that'swhat this past weekend was like,
for me it was it was joyfulbecause I got to relax and spend
(19:23):
time with friends. But it wasn'tlost on me like all the things
that have been happening overthe last two weeks. And so, you
know, for me, it was importantto take this past weekend and
not say I'm not celebratingFourth of July and I can't
necessarily say that I wascelebrating Fourth of July but I
(19:43):
was celebrating the spirit of myancestors and that is wanting a
better life for me and that lifethat better life includes rest,
restoration, a better word tosay restoration, resilience and
personal freedom and liberty. Sothat's what I did this past
(20:04):
weekend with plenty of food.
Jess (20:05):
Do you feel like any extra pressure since you're no the
author of this Juneteethcookbooks? You know, you've
become kind of representationalof the holiday. Since you have
this body of work out. Do youfeel any additional pressure to
kind of to bring the heat onJuneteenth or any other kind of
black holiday? Yeah, for thatmatter? Yes.
Nicole A. Taylor (20:28):
Listen to reasons why. I feel pressure
because, listen, I wrote thefirst cookbook dedicated to the
Juneteenth holiday by a majorpublisher, right. I know that
there are plenty of peopleprobably have written community
(20:48):
books around your teeth or havewritten about Juneteenth. Now,
some of my colleagues likeDonald battle Pierce, she's
written about Juneteenth, andTony, tiptoe, Martin. But
there's pressure because I amwriting about Juneteenth through
a different lens from a verymodern lens. And I want to make
sure that my recipes arereflective of the past, but also
(21:12):
look for look towards thefuture. So that's a lot of
pressure, because people, youknow, people critique you. And
it's pressure for me, becausepeople made my recipes, and they
want to be like, did this tastethe same? You know, and
ultimately, when I'm making foodfor my family, and friends, I
want them to love the food. So Ithink regardless if it was a
(21:35):
cookbook or not, then Idefinitely always have pressure
to make great food, because Iwant people to, to have a
memorable experience whenthey're at my home. But then
adding a cookbook on top, youknow, people they want to
sometime most times now,definitely over the past month
or so they've showed up andthey're like, Is this from the
(21:57):
cookbook? Wow, it's more thanone thing from the cookbook.
I've always done it because thestuff in the cookbook is what I
make. I mean, I can do it. I cando it by rope. So yeah, there is
pressure. There's gonna bepressure probably for the next
several years on June teens, forme to show up in a way where I'm
(22:19):
giving to other people. And I'mokay with
Jess (22:21):
it. So how does your research process for the for the
book go? I know you've said youalready kind of read wrote about
duties before. But you know, notbeing necessarily from Texas,
where the holiday originated?
Right. How long did that take?
Before the cookbook came? Well,
Nicole A. Taylor (22:37):
I will say a few things is that, you know,
June 19 1865, also known asJuneteenth is a holiday that's
rooted in Texas holiday that,you know, got it's got his legs
in Galveston, but we know thatblack people left the American
South and more specificallyblack people left Texas. And
(23:00):
when they left Texas, they tookJuneteenth with them. So you
find people from Texas whocelebrated Juneteenth for
generations, you find them inAtlanta, you find them in LA,
you find them in Oakland, youfind them in Seattle. And so I
spoke with people who wantspecific the person I spoke with
(23:23):
was Marguerite Hannah, born andraised in Galveston, lives in
Atlanta, went to school inHoward, from a very prominent
black family in Galveston, hergrandfather was Mr. TD
Armstrong, who owned a pharmacytheir own real estate and was
(23:44):
you know, a contributor to blacklife and culture. And Galveston,
but I spoke with her, she's theperson who asked to speak on
her. I'm like, okay, she gave mepermission to write this book,
right, and saying that it'sokay. And also to she gave me
(24:08):
permission to do things the wayI want it to be. And so I spoke
to people, people who celebratedJuneteenth who were from Texas,
I also did a lot of reading fromcookbooks and many things that
weren't cookbooks, looking forcultural cues about Texas food
about black Texans. AboutJuneteenth. I also looked at
(24:31):
Black cookbooks, to see thecorrelation between foods,
traditional foods people ate atJuneteenth and just general
black what I call celebrationfoods. What do we eat and
celebratory times, I listened toa lot of music as well looked at
a lot of art. When I when Icould, you know, because I
(24:52):
started deep research in thisbook, in the pandemic, right in
2020 in the summer of 2010. Tome, and I was working on this
book all the way up until Marchwhen he went to the printer
March of this year. I have asection in the back of the book
called notes on Juneteenth. Icall it the poor man's
bibliography. And it's not eventhe extensive list of who I
(25:15):
talked to what I read, forinstance, I read and went
through how to be by HarrietCole. That book came out in the
early 2000s. And she has liketwo paragraphs talking about
Juneteenth celebrations. So Iwent to my shelf, I went to my
shelf and just kind of looked atBlack books that I thought would
be some references aroundJuneteenth. But the research was
not just one road, there were somany different paths that led to
(25:41):
creating chapters one like thefestival and fairs chapter, I
was really interested increating a chapter that focused
on what I call Americanasummertime foods, which are fair
foods like Famo, Cades, andfried fish and shrimp where you
(26:02):
find black coastal cities,particularly like Galveston.
That's where they had a duty,they will have fried fish fried
shrimp, you see fish fries tohappen all over the country. But
when I started researching aboutthe fairs and festivals, I went
down this rabbit hole of readingabout the desegregation of the
(26:23):
Texas State Fair in Dallas.
Whoa, I could like do a wholearticle about the Texas State
Fair, I ended up you know,writing an essay that kind of
gave you the gist of thedesegregation of the fair. But
yeah, that research, I was likeresearching that fair for like,
a whole week. And I'm like,wait, I'm like, wait, wait,
wait, wait. Come on back.
(26:45):
Because I'm not I'm not ahistorian. You know, I'm a
person who is a master home cookthat writes about Black culture.
And I like to say I'm leavingbread crumbs for people to do a
deeper dive. But yeah, theresearch is very exhilarating.
For me, when you
Jess (27:01):
were coming up with recipes was one to where you
were kind of putting it togetherfor the book and you're like,
that's Juneteenth in a nutshellkind of envelops how I like to
celebrate it how I've celebrateit was one or maybe two or three
recipes that you feel kind ofencapsulate your question.
Nicole A. Taylor (27:20):
I feel like the robe the all purpose wrote
in the book is really Jim tingto me, and I will say because
ribs and barbecue, barbecuedfood, or cookout foods, you
can't have Juneteenth withoutthe smoke, right? People people
(27:40):
want a burger people want ribs.
People want meat, they want tobe outside, they want to taste
that smoke. And so this allpurpose rub. I have perfected
and tweaked it over the years.
But I feel like it's the thingthat I'm always going to have in
the summertime when I'm grillingfood out, you know, my husband
(28:01):
was actually putting the foodout and I'm micromanaging him.
I'm always gonna create myrobes, and use them the whole
summer. So that Rob which is inthe front part of the chapter is
crucial to me telling my storyof duty, and desserts. Oh my
gosh, I am a dessert person. SoI have two new chapters
(28:24):
dedicated to dessert. And I feellike ice cream is a story that
so many people making homemadeice cream. People from the South
have a certain age. I've gottenthree different people tell me
the story of in the summertime,they would have a big wooden ice
(28:45):
cream maker with the rock iceand their grandparents or their
family members will let all thekids you know, turn the turn and
it will be on duty. So I'veheard this story from three
different people as I've beenpromoting his book. And it was
just confirmation like having awhole chapter and having
homemade ice cream in this bookin my way in a very modern way
(29:08):
also speaks to the traditions ofso many black people across the
United States and particularlyblack Texans who had and enjoyed
homemade ice cream on June 18.
The honey vanilla ice cream is abeautiful ODE TO DO 10 stories
of ice cream making and thefuture of desserts on June 18.
Jess (29:33):
So something that I noticed from the book was the
beautiful use of summer producewhich you know are from Florida.
We have wonderful produce herein Florida, especially during
the summertime so there's thingslike fresh corn and zucchini and
eggplant. So how important isfresh fresh produce kinda to the
celebration or
Nicole A. Taylor (29:53):
oh my gosh, like when I was growing up the
summertime meant that the fruitman was going to come through
the neighborhood He does nothave watermelon. And the grown
ups run outside because ofvegetables slash fruit man will
come and they wanted to get thesummer bounty offer off of the
vegetable man's truck, right.
And I remember going to thegrocery store in the summertime.
(30:17):
And soon as you walk in, you seethese big cards with watermelons
coming out, right? And you knewthat when someone bought their
watermelon, and you got home,you just weren't gonna cut a
watermelon for one person, youknow, it became a communal
thing. And also in thesummertime, you know, you're
(30:37):
driving somewhere and there's aroadside stand and you get corn
and you get tomatoes, or in myneighborhood, everyone had a
garden. And I remember gettingyelled at from neighbors,
because I would cut throughtheir yards to go to my cousins
and past trampling their theirsummertime fruits and
vegetables. So it is a part of,of American culture, the
(31:01):
American sales culture to havetomatoes, corn, eggplant, fresh
herbs, blackberries,raspberries, strawberries in the
summertime. And so I startedthis book, the ideation of this
book thinking about what are thefruits and vegetables that I can
(31:21):
recall that naturally come to mymind? When I think of summer
months, and when I think ofJuneteenth. And I literally
started a spreadsheet, right.
And from this spreadsheet, Iwanted to like how can I tell
the story of the summer bounty?
How can I tell the story ofsomeone's great who always kept
the garden? Or how can I tellthe story of someone always
(31:46):
stopping at a farm stand. Sothat's what you see throughout
the book than the recipes. Yousee fruits that conjure up a
memory. You also see a foodpyramid in the beginning of the
book that literally gives you anexample of you know, fruits,
vegetables and kuchi minds thatyou should be shopping for for
(32:08):
this cookbook, the fruits andvegetables, summertime fruits
and vegetable repair my when Iwas creating these recipes. So
Jess (32:17):
let's talk a little bit more about that food pyramid.
You did a wonderful interviewwith the National African
American History Museum. And youtalk a little bit about how
there's almost like a dualitybetween your food pyramid and
some of W. E. B. Dubois work youtell us a little bit more about
Nicole A. Taylor (32:35):
such a coincidence. I'm the Creative
Director of my book is GeorgeMcCalman. George is a San
Francisco based illustrator andartists. He has designed a few
cookbooks, probably one of themost notable cookbooks he's
designed this year is black foodby Brian Terry. But he also I
was lucky enough to have himdesign my book. So the cover of
(32:59):
my book, The Color, illustrationillustrations in my book. It's
all George. And I had this ideathat I wanted to do a food
pyramid and George was like,Okay, tell me what you want to
do. He was like better yet. Justdraw it and send me a picture.
I'm like, I can't draw. I'm notan artist. But I just, you know,
Sam, a little thing and mymoleskin. And he use colored
(33:23):
pencils, and the first printingof the book. And then we just
put the words on there. Now, inthe second printing of the book
that's supposed to happen. Hehas some hand drawn words are
the fruits and the vegetablesand the herbs. And then we print
out this five by seven archivalprint of the pyramid and as
(33:47):
George and so when we wereprinting this out, the book had
long gone to the printer. Thebook was out. I was just looking
through some of my husband'sarts books. And he has his book
that chronicles Dr. WEB DuBoisis research around black
Atlantans black people inGeorgia, at the turn of the
(34:12):
century. And he has all thesediagrams, their pyramids, their
circles, and I opened it up. Andliterally, there's a pyramid,
colorful, that looks almostsimilar to what George and I put
together and I send it to Georgeand he's like, Hi. My husband
said was Jordan inspired bythis. So I sent him a text. He's
like, No, but oh, he's like,it's so funny. He's like, I've
(34:35):
been saying for years, I'm gonnabuy that book and I haven't
bought it. He's like, I'm goingto buy it now. I was like, yeah,
that's totally the ancestorsspeaking through me. But it is a
coincidence that they look somuch alike in terms of color, in
terms of, you know, the simpleidea that we were conveying. So,
(34:57):
yeah, I'm happy seem to havebeen on that same wavelength
with Dr. He'd be the voice
Jess (35:04):
is amazing. So the title of the book also kind of has
mentioned of the answer, so it'skind of hidden within it
watermelon and Redbirds, can youtell me a little bit more about
the title of that book and thebook and what it means. Yeah,
Nicole A. Taylor (35:18):
I mean, watermelon. We talked a bit
about it, like, you know, what amelon to me means. Summertime is
signifies Americana. It alsosignifies you know, black people
in a very positive way. AndRedbirds. Wow, I get shields.
Every time I get this question,I just get chills thinking about
(35:40):
it. My mother used to tell megrowing up, she would be like,
look outside, look outside, lookoutside, and she'd be like,
there's a red bird. There'ssomebody that died in our family
coming back to say hello, blowthem a kiss. And I always will
see a red bird and be like, Oh,that's somebody my family coming
back and say hello, is goodluck. I remember this story. I
(36:03):
had to be a little girl. Iremember that story. Right? When
I started to think about whatthe title of this book should
be. I never forgot the store.
But it wasn't on my mind. And Inever really saw read borrows a
lot in New York. And I was like,this needs to be the title of my
book. It is the perfectsummation of the past the
(36:27):
present and the future ofJuneteenth. And when I came back
to Georgia to create this book,and to take a break from the
COVID 19 pandemic, and I lookout my window, and I have a
stressful day, I will see a redbird. I see so many red birds
now. And then just like layeringand flying around, and I always
(36:49):
just go Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you ancestors. And evennow I started to call out
people's names like is thattrue? Is that you investigate?
And so yeah, the title isspecial to me.
Jess (37:03):
Yes. So you just mentioned at Bessie, you mentioned in the
interview also about how shekind of taught you to cook or
you watched her cook and shekind of supervised your first
recipe in the kitchen, which wasfried corn. So do you remember
that recipe and how it tasted?
Do you still make well let
Nicole A. Taylor (37:24):
me because I don't think Okay Do not say she
supervised that. So my BessieGoolsbee, she lived to be almost
100 years old. I mean she's mygreat aunt. She's more like a
grandmother to me. And it'sfunny because she was probably
was matriarch of our family.
Everyone looked at her but shecould cook the first thing that
I saw her cook and I recreate itwas actually a poached egg to
(37:44):
make posted all the time she hada cheap really cook she could
make great yeast rolls, and shedrink a coca cola every day. But
I learned how to I don't I can'trecall if she taught me how to
make fried corn or where Ilearned it from but yes, I was
young I wasn't even a teenagerand I would cut the fat back off
(38:08):
and I ended would have that bigblack cast iron pan and I would
you know take the fat back I'llput it on a piece of paper let
it drain out that was gonna beon this on the side. And you
know shuck the corn cut the cornoff and fry the corn Some people
call that cream corn now butyes, I still make that it was I
(38:29):
have a recipe in my firstcookbook. But I don't I just
funny. I think I learned how tomake fried corn just seeing
other women doing the samething. I don't think I don't
remember my best to be makingfried corn that much
Jess (38:44):
for your son. I know he's a little one now. But do you
have plans to kind of have himwatch you in the kitchen?
Nicole A. Taylor (38:53):
Now? Yeah, okay. Is three and a half years
old. His name is Garvey. He I amso proud when we go to the
grocery store and he comes inthe kitchen and he sees the
avocado he goes avocado or he'llget up in the morning and he's
like, What do you want forbreakfast? And he's like mango
(39:14):
and I don't have any mangoes.
And he'll just start calling outfruits and vegetables because he
sees all the fruits andvegetables on the counter. So
it's not foreign to him right.
And so I'm proud of that. And heloves making eggs. He loves eggs
and so I let him crack his owneggs. Sometimes they fall on the
(39:35):
floor and then shales get in itbut I lamb crackers on it and
make him scrambled eggs it Ithink it starts now and he
definitely will see a photo ofsomeone in the kitchen and he'll
go mommy
Jess (39:51):
does anybody in the kitchen as mommy
Nicole A. Taylor (39:53):
says he's seen me in the kitchen so much and
I'm proud of that and I hope isMy, my, my prayer that he will
create memories of family andfriends and food the same way I
have and he'll have you know,these three good books as a
guide to enjoyment and tolaughter.
Jess (40:17):
So we talked briefly about Powell, the title watermelon and
web birds, especially the webpart, red birds part kind of has
June teens past, present andfuture kind of wrapped up in it.
What do you kind of envision thefuture of June to be right now
we're kind of in the state wheremore people are finding out
(40:38):
about it across the nation whomay not have celebrated it
before. How do you kind ofenvision the future
Nicole A. Taylor (40:44):
freaking excited about Juneteenth I, I
feel that Juneteenth will alwaysbe ours. And when I say that,
what I mean is that no one cantake black American story of
family can take them from usyour story about your family.
(41:07):
And growing up in Florida orgrowing up in Milwaukee or me
growing up in Athens. No one canstrip that away from me. And I'm
mostly excited about peopleasking folks in their family,
did you celebrate Juneteenth ortell me about Auntie Susie?
Sweet potato salad? Why don'tknow about you know how to make
(41:31):
it. I want to learn how to make,I see that that's what
Juneteenth is going to look likeis going to be people, black
people digging deeper into theirfamily stories. And with those
family stories comes food andfood traditions. And so I'm most
excited about that. All theother stuff to me is just noise,
(41:53):
right? Because I know that blackpeople, there's so many things
in our culture that have stoodthe test of time. And I know in
my hearts that Juneteenth is anAmerican holiday, it is a black
American holiday. And the futureis right. I'm also excited about
the plethora of June teencookbooks that are going to come
(42:13):
after mine. Like hello peoplelike there should be an entire
June 18 cocktail book or dessertbook and it should be by
someone's from Texas who didcelebrating it for Juneteenth
for centuries, excuse me, orcenters not the wrong word. It
was the wrong word for decades.
I'm excited about that. Sothings are bright for Juneteenth
Jess (42:36):
for sure a lot of African Americans now are going into
meatless diets vegan diets Ihave for one, I'm pescetarian.
And I'm very grateful for theinclusion of the zucchini dogs,
and also the meatless bakedbeans.
Nicole A. Taylor (42:50):
This weekend, people love them.
Jess (42:52):
So do you kind of picture more of like a plant based
culinary experience for black
Nicole A. Taylor (42:57):
people? I think that more people, more
African Americans areincorporating plant based or
vegetarian side dishes or maindishes into their celebrations,
I think is becoming just a mainthing for me. I always keep
impossible burgers in myfreezer. So if when I'm cooking
out for a celebration orJuneteenth and find like forget
(43:20):
that someone is vegan, I canpull out an Impossible Burger
but even more so. My mushrooms Ialways always have what I call
fancy mushrooms in some form fora celebration, you know, I will
fry them up and use the samebatter that I use for my fish
(43:42):
sometimes I will use my dry ruband put them on the grill as you
see in the cookout and barbecuesection. Yeah, I'm always
thinking about how toincorporate vegetarian and vegan
dishes into my celebrationsbecause I have so many friends
(44:04):
who are you know, eating lessmeat and or have decided to
mostly eat a plant based diet soit's natural to me and I also
was vegetarian for about 10years were pescetarian and my
husband was vegetarian so it'seasy for me just just to do it
not even think about it everynow and then I will slip up and
(44:26):
like have like a wish our sauceand something and then I forget
like oh wait the fish and butyou can buy you know non. What I
wouldn't want to call it veganWorcestershire sauce. I guess
it's this wizard. Yeah. So thereare plenty of ways to switch it
out. But to answer yourquestion, yes. People are
(44:47):
already people already doing it.
Jess (44:49):
So beyond June teen how do you kind of envision your
cookbook being used through likethe other month throughout the
year? Well,
Nicole A. Taylor (44:56):
I mean, it's the summertime we outside
hashtag And yeah, I mean for methis summer, I'm mostly excited
about going on vacation withfriends. And I'm excited about,
you know, going on a hike withfriends. And I'm excited about
(45:19):
being back in New York and doinga blog party. And so for those
three things that I justmentioned, you can use
watermelon and Redbirds, themargarita meets the maroon
margarita mix is so perfect tomix up, put it in your cooler,
have your eyes ready, asksomeone to bring the booze if
(45:42):
you're drinking booze or asksomeone to bring the tonic and
you just put the cup, put alittle mix in the cup, put your
tonic in, or put your Dillionand if that's what you want,
shake it up, and boom, you havea cocktail, you can do that on a
camping trip or outdoor picnicat a park. When I'm going on
vacation in August, I'm alreadythinking about like, Okay, I'm
(46:03):
gonna be on Martha's Vineyard,it's gonna be a ton of fish. I'm
gonna do the Caraway butterfishat our rental house for everyone
is easy. I can just buy thecaraway seeds and the butter.
And I'll get the guys to cutthat out. There are so many we
outside things that arehappening this summer that you
can bring my recipes to, or youcan just make them at home while
(46:26):
you're chilling. These next twoand a half months, or three
months of warm weather,depending on where you are
longer. We should be enjoyingourselves. We should like turn
the TV off. Close our phones.
Forget about social media andlike be with family and friends.
Like it's been a crazy two and ahalf years yours, right? We've
(46:47):
just basically been scared totouch anyone to be around
people. So I'm excited to safelybe gathering with family and
friends at Eton. Well,
Jess (47:01):
yes, but we thank you so much for being a part of the
show. Nicole, I have thoroughlyenjoyed having you here this
conversation. I've thoroughlyenjoyed the cookbook. But again,
thank you so much for being somuch.
Nicole A. Taylor (47:15):
I'm a bit rusty. It's been two weeks since
I've been on the I've been onthe interview circuit but I'm
I'm happy to be on your podcast.
Yes.
Jess (47:25):
So people kind of want to follow you and what you have
coming up next. Where can theyfollow you?
Nicole A. Taylor (47:31):
I can be found everywhere on social media food
culture is C ULTUR is T Yeah,I'm gonna be outside all summer
long.
Jess (47:45):
And if you want to buy the book, you can find it anywhere
you find books, especially atyour local independent or black
own bookstores. So make sure youcheck out watermelon and red
birds and again, thank you somuch for being here I am just
with the flaky foodie. Remember,eat something delicious this
week and treat this episode likegossip or the gospel and tell
(48:08):
somebody about it. All right,everybody. Thanks
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.