HOW to write a graphic novel about foster care adoption

Meet my graphic novel writing coach Maria Rodgers O’Rourke! Maria is a writer and certified Story Grid Editor. Her career began in advertising and public relations, moved to nonprofit leadership, and homed in on communications and writing after earning her master’s degree in pastoral studies. Maria is publisher and author of two women’s journals. She’s contributed stories to the St. Louis Post Dispatch and the HuffPost, and to the Chicken Soup for the Soul series. Maria runs MRO Creative, where she supports writers as a developmental editor and coach and crafts her own stories and reflections. Learn more about Maria and her approach at mrocreative.com.

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
We really should have waiting parents, not waiting children.
Over 100,000 children are available for adoption through
the US foster care system, and 27% don't have anyone like a
relative or foster parent in theprocess of adopting them. 60%
are between the ages of five and17, and 2/3 are part of sibling
groups of two to eight children.Hey listener, my name is Marcy

(00:27):
Bursack. My husband and I chose Adoption
is our Plan A. After blogging about our journey
adopting A sibling pair, I beganmentoring families right in my
own living room. That passion grew into the
Forgotten Adoption Option, a nonprofit and now lead as a
volunteer while working full time in the tech industry.
From my blog, Three Books app, and Classroom Lesson, to now a
45 minute course called Foster Care Adoption Simplified, which

(00:50):
you can find at forgottenadoptionoption.com,
I've created practical, heartfelt resources to help
families navigate the foster care adoption process.
As you listen to this episode, Iencourage you to ask yourself,
who in my circle needs to hear this?
It's often people in what we call helper professions.
People like therapists, nurses, doctors, police officers,

(01:11):
firefighters, social workers, and teachers like my husband.
These are the people who tend tostep forward to adopt children
from foster care. But this work isn't only about
becoming an adoptive family. It's also about becoming an
advocate and ally. Every waiting child deserves not
just a forever family, but a community of people who champion
their future. Whatever LED you to this

(01:33):
podcast, I am thrilled that you were here.
My mission is simple, to help every waiting child be with
their forever family. And that's exactly why I host
this podcast. Welcome to the Forgotten
Adoption Option podcast. In this episode, you're going to

(01:54):
learn how to write a graphic novel about foster care
adoption. I'm joined today by my writing
coach, Maria Rogers O'Rourke. Hi, Maria.
Hi, Marcy. This is so delightful to like
connect to my listeners. So last year I began research to
mobilize my desire to expand theFoster Care Adoption Awareness
Reading program. I already have been doing this

(02:15):
in elementary schools and I wanted to do something for
middle schoolers and high schoolers.
And I've been talking to educators to get some guidance
of like what type of book would be appealing to teens.
And even though some suggested, oh, just use your children's
book are your favorite family. I thought this isn't going to
like work for all the teenagers,like maybe a subset.
So I started doing some researchto see what could reach in a
Broadway. And that's when my research

(02:37):
started with graphic novels wentto the library.
I ordered a few award-winning books.
I OK, folks, just so you know, like my, my reference point of
graphic novels was like my kids bringing stuff up from school.
Like I don't avidly read these things.
OK, look, I had to learn this whole genre.
And then I scheduled to meet time with a youth librarian in
my area and finally, suddenly the graphic novel's the way to

(02:59):
go. The next step was, how on earth
do I write this? I did not know what to do, but I
met with several people and reached out to some people I
knew, like Maria, and asked if they knew.
Like, do you know anyone that could help me write this graphic
novel? Well, Maria Rogers.
Her work is a writer and certified Story Grid editor.
She began her career in advertising and public
relations, moved into nonprofit leadership, and then honed in on

(03:23):
communications and writing afterearning her masters degree in
pastoral studies. She's done like all sorts of
cool stuff. Maria's a publisher and author
of two women's journals. She contributed stories to the
Saint Louis Post Dispatch and the HuffPost and the Chicken
Soup for the Soul series, which to me has a very dear spot in my
heart. Maria, I don't know this my
godmother, like, that's like thenote I still have from her.

(03:43):
She has since gone on from our world, but that's like the book
I have from her where she's a note in there.
Maria runs her own company called MRO Creative, where she
supports writers as a developmental editor and coach
and crafts her own stories and reflections.
So when I first met Maria, some might know this.
I was in a book series called The Grit Anthology, and Maria
served as editor and writing coach for each person writing a

(04:06):
chapter. So I met her there and I
remember how much I loved, I waslike given one-on-one sessions
with her to be coached. And one thing I super loved
about working with her was when we met, she was like, oh, you've
done this before, You've writtenbefore.
I'm going to help you kind of like level up in a way that's
tailored to you. And I just like, loved that
creative space of like, oh, thisisn't like a canned program.

(04:27):
Like we're going to like do thistogether.
And so I actually then reached out to her about the graphic
novel because I thought, well, she was like, awesome to work
with. I want her.
And I was pleasantly surprised when Maria offered to meet to
see if she could help me write this graphic novel.
So she told me about her writingprocess.
I've never worked there, like, an entire book.
So this is like a whole new. I didn't know Maria had these
skills. And I was, she was honest that

(04:49):
she had never worked in a graphic novel before.
And we both agreed about a timeline and that what I was
doing was pretty ambitious, but she was confident that we could
do this. And so that's for Maria.
And I were like, let's plunge intogether.
And I think there's a lot to say, Maria.
I think our listeners will pick up on it a bit too.
Like there's just a trust. And I have joked listeners as

(05:12):
Maria and I were preparing for this episode.
I cry a lot with Maria. Like we we just get to the heart
of stories. So that happens in this episode
of Tissues Welcome. So, Maria, I wonder, does that
kind of sound like your version of the story of how exactly we
got paired up? It does.
That's exactly. And those anthology projects

(05:33):
were a huge challenge because they had as many as 40 different
contributors turning in their stories and their chapters.
And when I read your first draft, it just left off the page
because you talked about your experience in the pageant mil

(05:55):
you arena, you know, and then how you were connecting that
into your advocacy and work for adoption and foster foster care
children. And I was just this woman is so
creative. She's just pulling out the stops
in service to this message in this mission.
And so your story really stayed with me.
And so when you reached out to me, because it was, it's been a,

(06:18):
it was at least a year or two since we had worked together on
that. And you know, when you reached
out, I'm like, Oh yeah, Marcy, she did the beauty pageant and
that was all about being a part of the adoption world.
And so I just thought that was so amazing.
So it was really, it almost feltlike we picked up where we left
off, you know, like as soon as we reconnected, you know, we

(06:39):
just ran with the next project, so.
I'm like, here I am buying 5A chills because that's what you
have to do. And it was like, to me, it was
like such a therapeutic exerciseto be able to write a chapter
and like reflect on things. And I just remember my first
draft, like just how you met it,where it was and like it just,

(07:01):
it came so naturally, Maria. And I think that's something
that's so neat. Listeners, if you're maybe ever
thinking about writing somethingor have ever thought about
writing something and you're thinking like, I kind of don't
actually know what to do, that'sgreat.
Because you don't need to know what to do.
Just I think knowing what the heart of what you're doing is,
what I've learned in this graphic novel space too, that
it's like I didn't know how to put the pieces together and how

(07:23):
to write this like short screenplay.
But I knew that I could trust Maria.
And I knew that even though it was messy and I feel like I
started over like multiple times, like it was OK because
like, that was part of the journey.
And so as we explored working together, you used the term
developmental editor, which was something I've only come to
understand because I think in the traditional sense, like, oh,

(07:44):
I need an editor. Like someone that can read pen
and capitalize letters and periods and commas.
But for listeners, I, I want youto like know from Maria, like
what is a developmental editor? Because this is like such an
interesting niche. And so Maria, can you help us
understand that particular art? And then can you also explain
how you ended up like in this creative space specifically?

(08:08):
Such a great question and you'reso right.
You know, when people think about writing, they most people
just freeze up because they havethese bad experiences from going
through the education system andtheir English and grammar
classes and their spelling classes and the red pen, like

(08:29):
you said. And so when they think of
editing, they think, oh, they'rejust going to point out
everything that I did wrong. And then, you know, you go down
this rabbit hole of, well, then why do I even get started?
You know, why would I even writeif I'm just going to have a, you
know, mirror held up to me of what I'm doing wrong?
And the developmental editor exists in a different space.

(08:51):
We're not proofreaders. We are working with people to
develop their story from. I know we use the image of like
the clothesline, right? Is that we talked about the
clothesline itself is the main theme, the name, main message
that you want your work to express to the reader.

(09:13):
And then what gets hung on the clothesline are the different
scenes and chapters and characters and things that are
going to help bring that into being.
And so the developmental editor is one that sits with the writer
at that level to reflect back tothem.
Here's what's working, here's what's not.
Here are some tools we can use to take your work and to elevate

(09:36):
it. You know, like your experience
with the chapter, you know, is that.
And so it's really important to me in that space when I'm
working with writers to help them feel that they can trust me
because it is a very vulnerable thing to turn over your writing
to someone and basically say, what do you think?

(09:57):
You know? And so it's really important to
me that we have a have a space where it's understood that this
is this is safe. This is not going to be a place
where you are going to walk awayfeeling torn down, but a space
where you can feel affirmed in what's working and given really

(10:17):
clear feedback on how to improvethe work where it needs.
It needs that improvement. And again, with our commitment
to what that through line is andto what we want the experience
for the reader to be. And when you talk about ending
up in this creative space, it really has been a journey.
You mentioned the pieces that I went through in my bio and what

(10:41):
my career path has been. And what I have loved all
through that process is writing and creating and telling story.
And, and I do enjoy being in that space with the writer.
And so I've taught at the collegiate level, I've done the

(11:03):
developmental editing work that we've done together.
I, you know, then and in every space, every opportunity of that
is an amazing opportunity to help honor that person's story
and their message. And to me, that's just a really,
really beautiful place to be with people.

(11:26):
Me like as like the like person going through that journey and
I, I think for Marie Maria, likeI was oblivious that like there,
this is like a thing. It makes a lot of sense and I've
loved being able to learn and, and be guided through it.
Man, I'm like, if I would have known that there was like
another like a guy, like a guy to help write story.
Because I remember our very first session was like you and I

(11:49):
had a library and a dry erase board And it was just like
helping convey things I've learned through my podcast
guests, my books that I've written and families that I
coach. And it didn't feel like anything
linear, but just talking throughit like I loved like, OK, I know
that like I've, I probably have an expert in this space compared
to some of the things you knew, but it was like being able to

(12:09):
learn and teach each other. And you were like, well, I'm an
expert in the story part. So it's just an incredible
process. So listeners, I hope you're
encouraged that like if you are thinking about writing, it's
really not about the, the words in the paper being perfect.
Like it's just not. And there was, there's a great
way to be guided to unpack what's inside of you.
And so I remember Maria, we got started.

(12:33):
I had just like, I would like tohave this done by like previous
year play new Year. And it was a few months.
Like it was not, it was not longbecause I was at this.
I can't take that long, right? And you were like, OK, well,
hold on. Like the creatives process, like
it gets space and I'm married toin our teachers.
Like I very much respect and honor creative process and like

(12:53):
not rushing. So that wasn't that at all.
But what was interesting is we were thinking through like we
need to get like beta reader feedback.
There's all these steps that arehyper critical, especially when
this is like realistic fiction, which I've never written before,
which is a whole thing. And we ended up moving our
launch date. We were thinking it would be May
of 2026, but it just made so much more sense because May is

(13:15):
National Foster Care month to move it to November, which is
National adoption month. So it was like moving it back
like 6 months. But I remember that we, we
talked through that you were kind of, you weren't like, hey,
Marcy, you're wrong. You were more like, hey, can we
like think through this? And so can you help us know?
Like how did you know that we needed more time?

(13:35):
Well, I have to say First off the bat that you came in with
real clarity around the kind of story you wanted to tell.
You know, you knew you wanted a graphic novel, so that was a
certain genre and structure thatwe needed to work within.
And, and you, you really knew and, and that session that you
mentioned at the library, we gotreal clarity about what message

(13:59):
you wanted the reader to take from the story.
And following the trajectory of your main character, you know,
what were the outcomes? What were the obstacles that she
was going to have to face? Where did we want to see her
move from the beginning of the story to the resolution and the

(14:21):
ending of that story, you know, and what was going to happen to
her in between? So we came into it with a pretty
clear understanding of that whenwe started writing.
But I also know from my own experience as a writer and from
countless colleagues and clientsand people that have been in
this creative space of writing is that well and, and writing

(14:43):
really any creating your husbandcan attest to this too, is that
you can start out with the project with what you think is a
clear understanding of how it's going to go.
And then you get into it and newthings emerge and some
roadblocks come up and there's, and sometimes what comes up

(15:05):
through those hardships and through those insights is some
of the best stuff that the storycan offer.
And we didn't have, we didn't see that at the beginning.
You know, we had a good outline,but we didn't see some of these
things. And so that's how I knew we just

(15:25):
were going to need more time because I wanted us to be able
to put forth a story that was authentic, that was in the right
voice, that was resonant for people who may have shared the
experience of the people in yourstory.
And that it would have impact for the people who maybe didn't

(15:48):
have direct experience in that, but they could.
That would call forth some empathy and some compassion for
those readers as well. And so all of that needs time,
you know, and I think it's, you know, it's just kind of our
human dynamic that, you know, wecan be very outcome oriented and
we just learn, at least in our culture, you know, that we want

(16:10):
to be in outcome oriented. This is where we want to get it.
And we're just going to follow these steps.
And it's never a linear process.It always has to go through some
cycles. And in those cycles we grow and
the story grows, and then these magnificent things come up that,
like I say, we didn't vision andthey emerge, you know, and then

(16:34):
like some of your beta readers came back and said, oh, I love
that part about such and such. And we didn't get that, you
know, that didn't emerge for us until a couple of months into
the process of the drafts and the rewrites and the feedback.
And so if you push the work through too quickly, you just

(16:55):
short circuit those opportunities and and what
you'll come up with is probably good.
You know, you've got a decent story and you've got somebody
who understands story. And yeah, we could put it in all
of that. But I think what we came up with
and what emerged was like you'd,what's that saying about the

(17:15):
whole was more than the sum of the parts, right?
That. And then I knew ahead ahead of
time too. You had assembled this wonderful
group of beta readers who were people who had direct experience
in adoption and foster care. And then you had people who were
gifted storytellers in their ownright and television production
and media. And so I wanted us to be able to

(17:39):
breathe with that feedback too, that if there was something that
was a real red flag that came back from them, you know, that
we'd have time to Polish it and refine it.
Rudefully, you have that like foresight because listeners, if
you're you're hearing Maria's processing and think oh that
sounds like lovely like sounds like it was pretty linear and it
just took some time yes but on the other side did I want to

(18:02):
quit sometimes yes was it daunting yes Did I feel like I
couldn't do it? Yes so like just just put them
out there. I think there was just this deep
commitment of I can tell Maria at any time, like this is hard
or I don't know, or, you know, and, and Maria, you taught me a
term that I love, the messy middle.
And I feel like it transcends beyond, you know, written work,

(18:22):
that it's just life sometimes that it's like, it's OK that it
doesn't feel clear on what to donext.
And it's OK that like, I mean, we had scenes that like, some
moved around and some disappeared, you know?
And it's like, I think I, I feellike I grew in my creative
openness. If that's like a phrase that I
thought, OK, I can trust you to guide me.

(18:44):
And I'm OK knowing that even what I wrote yesterday, and this
is like super similar to how tech works, Like, OK, I wrote
that yesterday. It was really good when we
talked. But then when we met the next
time, because of what we had learned, it needed to be moved
or shifted or removed. And so it was like, I could
trust enough that it wasn't a waste of time to go through the
learning. And it was so neat.
Yeah, very neat to like I remember Tech that the main

(19:07):
character in the graphic novel is a teenager or female in
foster care. And so several of you have
listened to episodes of women who are now adults that they had
their age out of the system or they were adopted as teenagers
or even heard from adoptive parents.
They're some of the most popularepisodes.
And I I was able to text different things that were very

(19:28):
specific details. And it was the rich, just rich
learning process of, oh, I didn't think about it that way.
And a particular one that sticksout is, you know, the betting
like being told like mercy, it'sreally important to make sure
that it's not age appropriate. Like, I was a teenager, but I
was getting like middle school Princess stuff on my bed in this
group home. And so like, those were like

(19:48):
important, relevant details and just just so many things that we
learned together, Maria. But I'm sure I am absolutely
certain that some of our listeners have a book in their
heart. And some of them are probably
like, I don't even know how to get started.
And maybe I could like ask a person or what do I do?
And I know for you, it's not just, oh, this is what I do.
But I know that you think through a lot about like fit,

(20:11):
like, am I really the right person?
Is this really? How to do this?
Can you tell us a bit of like what your process is and how you
decide kind of who to say yes toand and how you think about all
that? Well, a part of my work is can
be genre specific. So for example, I probably

(20:32):
wouldn't be your editor for likehigh level science fantasy or
horror, you know, like they're just some genres that I'm I'm
better at in terms of like society stories, worldview,
memoir, love stories and so performance, you know, around

(20:56):
heroic characters, that kind of thing.
So, so that helps to kind of narrow the field a little bit in
terms of like what I can bring to the table.
And, and then, and so I'm reallyopen to like one of the things I
loved about our working togetheron this was the opportunity to

(21:16):
really kind of take this from story seed, from conception to
finished work. You know, and often times I'm,
I'm entering at different phasesalong that that journey.
And so, and I'm, and I'm happy to, to drop in at any point.
I've evaluated full completed manuscripts.

(21:40):
I've joined people, you know, midway through, if they've
reached some blocks, they're having a little trouble, like
kind of ending their story. You know, they've kind of
written their way to a place andthey need some help visioning
where that story can go. And so when I, when I speak with
someone, first of all, if they visit my website and I know
we'll talk about this later, butit's MRO creative.

(22:03):
It's my initials, creative.com. It gives you a real good glimpse
of what my style is and what my strengths are.
And I really do, as I mentioned earlier, try to create a very
nurturing space. And so I look for the ability to
work with clients who are committed to being in that

(22:26):
creative space together where their work isn't too precious.
You know that they're that they're willing to accept that
feedback because editors, editors can provide such a
wonderful perspective on the work.
And that when the writer is openas you were to OK, you know,

(22:50):
even knowing that, you know, yousaid earlier, sometimes I felt
like I couldn't do it. Sometimes I felt like I didn't
want to go on with it. I didn't, you know, that even in
the midst of that chaos, could, you know, just take the next
step and come back to the work and, and keep working with it
that way. And so that's that's a really

(23:11):
big thing that I look forward to.
The other thing that I never will promise anybody is that
we're going to write a best seller together because the
publishing industry is just, youknow, there are too many options
for how you get a book into the world.
And, you know, there's there aremany variables that I can't
control, but what I can help youcontrol is putting a really

(23:36):
solid moving story out into the world that is promotable, that
is workable, you know, that thatcan find its life beyond your
manuscript pages. So, yeah, I mean, I just love to
talk to people. I Ioffer a free 30 minute
consultation. And in fact, that's how we got
started on this phase of our working together.

(23:56):
As I said, sure, let's just talkand see what's up.
And at the very least I can giveyou some next steps to move
forward and you get a taste of what it's like to work with me.
And then if it's, if it's feeling like a good fit, then we
can talk more specifics about where you are with the work and
what kind of help I can give andif that would be beneficial.

(24:19):
Interesting. I'm thinking back like it's it's
summertime as we're recording this and I'm thinking, I think
it was like summertime. We met up at the library that
there's just something interesting about like what I
know now that we've gone throughthis process together.
And you're reminding me because you mentioned kind of this
preciousness and I, I, I would love to kind of expand on that.
Like you mentioned, like could you be open to being guided and,

(24:40):
and changing things? And I'm thinking again, it's a
pattern true skill. Like I had to opt in being
coachable and like receiving feedback because I, I knew that
like I didn't know where I was going with the story.
I just knew that I wanted the story and I wanted to be able to
reach this other giant portion of students.
But at the same time, it was a it's an interesting dialogue

(25:02):
back and forth, Maria, to inviteyou in.
And so I'm curious if you could kind of dive like if if
listeners are thinking, how do Iknow my story is not precious or
I'm OK learning? Are there things that they can
be doing like mentally with themselves or kind of preparing
their mindset to be open to coaching?
I think one of the first most important questions is who are

(25:25):
you writing for? You know, who is your ideal
reader and what is the message and the how do you want them to
feel? You know, that was those were
some of the very first questionsthat you and I looked at is, you
know, when they put that story down, how do you want them to

(25:46):
feel or what are some of the feelings you want them to have
over the course of that? And then what's the take away?
You know, we use the term controlling idea, you know,
like, what's the main thing thatyou'd like your reader to take
from your story? And I think when when you flip
it, often times writers approachthe page thinking, well, I have

(26:06):
something I need to say and that's important.
But when you flip it to who's receiving that message and how
do you want them to receive it? And what do you want them to
take from your message that pulls you to a level of more
objectivity to be able to say, OK, so I've got I've got the the

(26:28):
the fodder of what I want to say, but I need to craft it in a
way that's going to land to meetthat objective that I have for
the reader. And so that to me is like one of
the first things. And so when I say precious, it's
like that's where, you know, I've encountered writers who are
so wedded to the language that they've chosen and to the arc of

(26:53):
a character. And if we can't kind of look at
that more objectively, then OK, keep writing.
But, you know, I don't, I don't just don't know if, you know,
you need to be able to take thatkind of feedback.
And I had a recent client who had written a really beautiful

(27:17):
story and it was a Crime Story, as a matter of fact.
And I used a format that I've learned in my editing training
to kind of run that story through that lens and through
that filter. And he took the took the leader,

(27:41):
you know, took the guidance verywell and reworked it.
And when he resubmitted that manuscript, he got, he got a
publishing contract. And so like he had already been
shopping the manuscript. So it was finished and it was
good, but we just took it up a notch together, you know, and
it's still his work, it's still his vision, but it just, you

(28:05):
know, provided a really lovely framework and so and helpful
framework. And so even someone who was as
accomplished as he is in terms of storytelling, and he had
published books previously, and so it was great to work with
someone who had that bit of likehumility and understanding that

(28:27):
the objectivity of the editor could help him improve his work.
Really where this all is, it's like, I have an idea, how do you
massage it? So there's there's other terms
in this space that you've taughtme.
So I mentioned messy, but a little bit ago.
And then you also taught me sacred trust.
And I don't know that we coveredsacred trust when I wrote a
chapter with you because maybe there was just a little less to

(28:50):
work. I don't know, like this was like
a whole like, Maria, my heart iscoming out on paper.
And I think even the time when you ask me those questions about
like, who is this for? And what do you want the reader
to feel like? I'm pretty sure that was the
very first time I cried with youbecause it was just like, oh,
like I, I just this is what I know is there.
And so I wonder if you could explain to our listeners like
what a sacred dress And maybe you want to touch a little bit

(29:12):
more on this, like weird, messy middle.
That's actually really great because you reminded me as we
wrote another boat together recently, how messy middle
actually is. Familiar now.
So I'm like, oh, I know how to look for it.
It's actually not a negative at all.
Yes, yes, exactly. Thank you.
Well, I can't take credit for the term messy middle.
I'm not sure where that originated, but it is definitely

(29:35):
used in editing and storytellingcircles.
Just, you know, and, and it really is not even just limited
to writers, but anybody who is in creating something new,
there's always that space of, boy, I didn't think this was
going to happen. Or, you know, which we talked
about earlier about what we wentthrough on our timeline.
So, yeah, but I, I may have comeup with sacred trust, but I

(29:58):
don't, I don't need to claim that either.
But it definitely comes from my heart.
Because what I mean by that is at our most fundamental level as
human beings, we are wired for story.
Story is how we connect with each other.
Story is how we give each other advice, guidance, how we find

(30:23):
our home. You know, you have shared your
story and you've heard countlessstories of people in the
adoption arena. And it's powerful.
And that's when I say it's sacred because in crafting a
story, it's really a responsibility.
It's a it's an important responsibility because the

(30:48):
impact you will have on your readers, they open themselves to
that story. They're going to assimilate what
you have to say on some level, or they might reject it, or, you
know, everyone is going to have their own experience relative to
a story. But in telling a story, you

(31:10):
create a space where that personis potentially going to be
changed, you know, transformed. Just as we plotted out and
brought into being a transformational arc for your
main character, the reader hopefully is going to be
transformed by your story as well.
And so it is a sacred trust thatin crafting the story and

(31:36):
delivering a certain message to the reader, we're helping to
form that reader. And I personally want to be
about telling stories that are good and true and beautiful,
that elevate the reader. And that, to me, is a sacred
trust. You can take credit for the

(31:57):
pointing the term there's yeah. And I, I, I know that we went
through that together because atsome level it felt like we were
sharing the love of the people in the story together.
And to me, that was just such a sweet space to be in because it
was like, OK, I realize we're coming from this from very
different backgrounds, but you genuinely care so much about the

(32:18):
outcome of what's going on in the story.
And then at the same time, I feel like there, there was just
like I mentioned earlier, just this deeper level of like, I
don't actually know these details about group home life.
And I don't know some of these other specifics around things.
And some of it I did know and I shared with you.
And I'm curious from your own kind of journey, Maria, because
this this was not like an area of like niche for you.

(32:40):
You weren't like, I work at Foster Gear Adoption.
I totally know all the data. I'm very curious what it was
like for you to like travel through this story with me and
travel through kind of someone who went through this journey.
What was that like? Well, sure, there were times
when you shared stories and anecdotes that you had collected
that were just heartbreaking to me.

(33:03):
I mean, I, I couldn't imagine that people had to endure and
make sense of those circumstances in their lives.
And so there were there were moments when I was just
speechless and, and heartbroken.And yet I think that because we

(33:28):
had so much love for these characters, there may have been
moments when we wanted to protect them from the harsh
realities, You know, and there were a couple of points where we
really had to push and say, we got to go deeper here.
We've got to, you know, we've got to see her break.

(33:51):
You're saying we, but it was really you, Maria, that was like
what you say, push, push like. You got you got to push.
Well, so, you know, to your question about what was my
experience of it was that I, I felt such I was so, you know,
moved by the these the stories and the characters that you

(34:14):
wanted to bring in and what you wanted to say.
And and yet, and I think this isthe gift that the editor brings
to the process is that I could still stay in objective enough
of a space to say, OK, we need to bring this into the story,
you know, And so in a way, we wanted the story to create for

(34:36):
our reader what we were going through, You know, that we
wanted our reader to be as invested in your main character
as we were invested in our care and concern for the people that
you had met and, and who were inspiring to you in creating

(34:56):
these characters. So that to me is part of the, I
was grateful to be in that spacefor you, that you were bringing
this marvelous story into the world and you had real life
anecdotes and stories that were informing how you wanted to tell
this story. And that I could stand in that

(35:19):
space with you to like, bring all of that in and say, OK, now
this is so beautiful. And how can we use our tools to
bring that impact to your readers?
Because by experiencing that story at that level, that's part

(35:40):
of the advocacy work, right? And that brings us back to my
point about the sacred trust andthe story, right?
That as soon as that human connection is made, then that
transforms the reader and they see this in a different way.
And, and that's where we wanted to be, right?
We wanted that story to be that.And then in creating that story,

(36:02):
we had to walk through those painful moments with her, and we
got to celebrate with her when we saw how she grew, when we saw
the choices that she was able tomake.
And so we had laid that groundwork for her in order to
bring her to the outcome that wewanted to be authentic and

(36:25):
realistic and meaningful for ourreaders.
So listeners, if you have been part of an audience where I've
spoken, I do. A lot of my other books are
considered prescriptive nonfiction.
So I'm like explaining and teaching.
And what was really interesting to me and working with Mariana
graphic novel, is that teaching no longer had words like that to

(36:49):
give you the emotion and to showyou things.
Some of it was just depicted in the scene, and sometimes it was
dialogue going on, and sometimesit was like props they were
holding. And so this was so different
than anything I've ever done, but I am so grateful I found
Maria and was able to figure outlike, how do I translate what's
in my heart? And I'd love Maria to kind of
give our listeners kind of a glimpse of how our calls would

(37:12):
go. Cuz I would have some homework
and I would kind of work on somethings.
And we didn't really work on like part 1234 of the book.
Sometimes it was like OK, page 2and page like 22 and it was like
spotty, but that's where the work needed to be done.
And sometimes there's stuff in the middle that was very
tangled, but we just leave it. And, and I love learning like
it's OK to leave a mess in the middle or wherever it was in the
book. But to me, our feedback calls,

(37:35):
they had action steps and there was some like touch points on
the feedback. But I'm curious, how did you
prepare for our calls? And I mean, somehow you had this
like overarching milestone in mind that guided us and somehow
we held to a timeline. But I just like got on the boat,
Maria with you and trusted you. So I'm very curious like what
that was like from your point ofview.

(37:59):
Well, I described myself as a Muller.
You know, I like to Mull things over, right?
You know, we did talk about that.
And so the way I like to approach it is that when I get
the draft a few days or a week before our meeting, I'd read it
and attend to how I was responding to it as a reader,

(38:24):
not as an editor, but just as a reader.
And so I, I would make notes of something that I thought was
moved, that moved me. I made notes of dialogue that
didn't ring true if I was amusedor bored or if I found myself
really lost in the story. You know, I had a writing coach

(38:45):
once who asked a really wonderful question.
She said pay attention to when you're in scene and when you're
out of scene and like when you literally are aware that you're
reading like the storyteller haslost you, right?
And so that's what I like to do on the first pass is to just

(39:08):
kind of respond, react to the piece.
Then I walk away from it. And as I'm in that mulling
phase, that's when my editor capcomes on and I'm like, all
right, OK, now that, you know, Iwas, I got lost in this section.
How can we rework that? And so I have some really
wonderful tools that I've developed and then I learned

(39:29):
through the story grid methodology that are just really
fundamentals around structure, scene structures and the
movement that we want to see within a scene.
And so that was one of the things we did was we plotted
out, here's how the story's going, here's how it feels, you
know, and if we are not seeing enough movement in the story,

(39:52):
that's where we're going to loseour reader, right?
And so that was how I would prepare for our calls was
reading it first as a reader, then putting my editor cap on
and using these tools to help you understand, OK, here's where
it's working. Here's where we need.

(40:12):
More work. We need to, you know, like we
talked a lot about what were theessential scenes that we
absolutely had to be on the ground in the scene with our
character. And then what were the others
that, you know, like from a graphic novel standpoint that
like just one or two images could move the story forward

(40:35):
without having those story, you know, really hammered out in the
dialogue and in, you know, in a,in a way that you would need to
in a, in a long form prose novel, you know, so, so that was

(40:55):
how I would approach it was coming prepared into our calls
in that way. And it was such a joy to work
with you because you clearly hadzoomed in on the detail of the
work that you were doing. And then you were able to zoom
back out with me and, and, you know, allow me to say, here's

(41:18):
where it's working. Here's where we've got to roll
up our sleeves and rework it. And and again, pointing back to,
you know, kind of our North starof what we had agreed to in the
beginning about how we wanted tosee the character arc go, you
know, where were those teachablemoments?

(41:40):
You know, to your point, that's such an excellent thing that
some of the earlier drafts had some really heavy-handed kind of
a lot of what they called telling, you know, is that we're
just telling the reader this information.
But in the in the world of fiction, you want to be able to
show as much as you possibly can.

(42:01):
And so we we were able to to build out from that.
So I hope I answered your question on.
Your perspective is so interesting, Maria, because for
me, I remember there were moments that we would work on a
particular section and it like, got to where it was supposed to
be. And I'd be like, yes.
And then we'd have our next call.
And I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing again.

(42:22):
I don't know what I'm doing again.
And it was like just this like funny mental game where it was
like, what on earth am I doing? But I just knew I could trust
the journey with you. And I honestly, I have no idea
what you had behind the scenes. Like we, we would have listeners
like we, we kind of know what our next call was and we knew
what we were aiming towards. And so we knew we could move
things around 'cause it wasn't like it had to be done on this

(42:44):
day. It was sort of like kind of
around here. And this helps because the
illustration process is over 12 months.
But what I thought was really interesting, Maria, from my
experience is there were times where like I was working on it
and I was like, oh, it's not quite like like it's still kind
of working through it stuff. Then I don't know, it would be
like a deadline of like Saturdaymorning or something.
And I remember emailing you likemidnight or like 1:00 AM.

(43:05):
To me, I'm like Maria, I'm not ready.
Like I need like 2 more days. And it was interesting because
in the same sense that I just, Ilove working with you the way
you received like, oh, that actually works better for me.
But I got time when we get back on Monday, it's fine.
Like it doesn't actually matter.And so to me, not having goals
but not rigid goals really helped me in this process

(43:27):
because it was like I kind of need to explore a little bit
more and I need to talk and consult some people about like,
what is this classroom experience like and what is this
like? So it was interesting,
listeners, to go through this whole process for the whole
time. I actually don't actually know,
like if I didn't like come to like an event and there was like
an itinerary for the weekend of this conference.
Like I didn't actually know whatMaria had up her sleeves next at

(43:48):
all. Like it was like, I have no
idea. I just know we're going to get
there. And so one thing I want to hone
in on to Maria is that I know you were very specific about
when we met. I'm sure there were like, 50
things we could talk about, but you would pick, like, 3.
And I just knew to, like, listenand work on it.
So maybe you were trying to be thoughtful about how much kind
of action I had to do. But I'm curious, how did you

(44:10):
know the entire time we were like working through this that
we'd say on track? Because somehow, like, somehow
your mastermind knew that. Yeah.
I mean, that's what it is, is, well, I really have to commend
you as the writer and creator here that seriously, you, you
stayed on task beautifully. And that's, that's a real, that

(44:35):
can be a real challenge for people that they, if they do get
discouraged or they feel like they've run out of ideas or
whatever, you know, and so. Happened is I had told so many
people what I was doing that I like could not finish because I
was like, that's going to be embarrassing.
If I I like, what am I going to do?
Because I was like, I just have to do this.

(44:59):
Well, and one of my favorite stories is from Anne Lamott.
She's a wonderful novelist and essayist and she's written a a
book based on her teachings about writing and it's called
Bird by Bird. And the title of the book comes
from her, her younger brother. When he, I think it was in
middle school and he did what we've all done.

(45:21):
He put over, he put off a semester long project until like
the night before it was due. And it was for his science
class. And it was about birds.
And he's sitting at the kitchen table with his head in his hands
and he's like, how can I possibly get this done?
And his dad sat down next to him, put his arm around him.

(45:41):
And he just said bird by bird bybird.
And that's the only way we can do it is we just have to just,
OK, here's the next chunk, here's the next piece I can work
on. And again, that's what an editor
can bring is to hold space for. We've got these details to work

(46:03):
on, but it's still fitting in with this big piece that we've
already designed. You know, and the elements of
storytelling are so magnificent because they zoom in down to a
literal beat within a scene and they zoom back out to the entire
manuscript. And so just understanding that

(46:25):
we need to hit these markers at every level of the story.
So what I could say to you is, OK, we're working on, you know,
building out the dialogue in this scene and and hold space
for how that was still fitting into that big, the bigger scope

(46:46):
of the story. And then just, you know, knowing
that then all of that's going toslot in and then we pull back
and we read it all again and we see how it's flowing.
And yeah, so I mean, it was a both end.
It was like to zoom in and to beable to focus on the bird, you
know, like she's told in her story.
But then also, we did keep a running list of like, OK, we

(47:06):
need to get back to, you know. And then I remember one really
important series of passes that we did on the manuscript was
taking it from the perspective of each character.
So like we had, we really were generally focused on your main
character, but then the side characters, you know, we like

(47:28):
her, the other girls that were in the foster home with her to
read the entire manuscript through their eyes.
And that's where we caught a lotof that wonderful nuance around
setting and, and tone and dialogue.
And we were able to pick up inconsistencies, you know, so we

(47:52):
were able to clarify those character traits so that those
were more consistent from scene to scene.
And so that was another way thatwe kind of isolated was like,
OK, we put on, you know, we put on the eyes of this particular
character and read the whole manuscript from that perspective
and then again, pull back and see how the whole thing is

(48:14):
laying out. Passes, but they were good
passes and I I learned so much. I think there's there's so much
Maria just going through this together.
I felt like sometimes even our calls was just me going.
I learned this or, you know, just kind of working through the
different pieces of it and we got there and I will say,

(48:34):
listeners, something that kind of guided our work to is there
was a particular graphic novel that I'm like, oh, this.
Like I like the shape and like the pacing of this.
I want the illustration, but like I like the story.
And by the way, I've already looked at like cost.
And so we need to stay about 100pages.
And so we have these like parameters sort of around us
that were interesting because then how do you tell the story

(48:55):
when you know how kind of longish it's going to be?
And so there was some budget pieces around that.
And Maria was so great. But what's really cool,
listeners, to close, I want to share with you, Maria is going
to continue partnering with me through the illustration phase
of the graphic novel, which I think is the coolest thing
because not only did we get to write this beautiful story
together, but now seeing it likeliterally come visually to life

(49:18):
is something we continue, which I'm like, please come with me.
Come and help me see this through.
So what will your focus be on that Maria, as we work through
illustration? Oh, I'm really excited, too.
Yeah. And so I do.
I just see myself as continuing in that story consultant role
because the illustrator that you're working with is a very
accomplished storyteller in her own right, you know, And I'm

(49:41):
really confident in what we've given her.
And yet, as she brings those characters to life, I think some
really important questions, you know, again, kind of that messy
middle creative, you know, we need a little extra time flow,
you know, is that they're going to be things that come up along
the way. And I love the opportunity to be

(50:02):
with you on your team to bounce these ideas around.
How does this resonate? You know, if there are any big
steps along the way? So I just, I'm loving being
available to be part of that conversation because we are so
invested in these characters andwe're so happy with the story
that we're telling. And so let's continue to honor

(50:24):
that story and allow the illustrations again to, you
know, take it to the next level.Cool adventure.
And I'll tell you listeners, forme, one of the driving forces in
any of the books I've written isthe importance of like what
colors are used and what qualityis given to the story.
And so in some ways it's like, well, Marcy, do you really need

(50:45):
Maria in the illustration phase?You could say, OK, maybe maybe
Maria doesn't have to come into that space because we got the
story written. But I'm also going, but if she
doesn't come and I miss something huge or there's,
there's pieces to story. I don't know, story, right?
Like what? What if it's even better?
And so to me, that's where my board and I were like, that
makes so much sense because if we're gonna do one graphic novel

(51:07):
and we're gonna do a really incredible graphic novel, that
we're not looking back and regretting something that that's
Maria continuing to be on the team through the whole thing.
So I'm thrilled. Thrill, thrills.
Thanks. And, you know, I wanted, I
wanted to circle back to one thing about story.
I heard you say, I don't know story.
And I want to, I want to modify that a little bit that that may

(51:28):
not be your expertise in terms of, you know, but everybody
knows story in the, in our heartof hearts that we know when a
story doesn't work, You know, when we've watched a movie or
we've read a book and we're like, you know, it's just never,
I never got engaged in it. I never, you know, we know that

(51:52):
and we can't necessarily put thelanguage around why, but we just
know. And you know what, we won't go
see that actor again. We won't read that, that author
again. You know, we won't watch that
show anymore because it just didn't do it for us, you know.
And So what I love is that we could come together and, and
bring your story and bring some of these tried and true, true

(52:13):
tools to help structure it in a way.
And I think we got some really affirming feedback from your
beta readers that we'd, that we'd hit our marks, right.
We, we told the story in a way that was going to help bring the
reader in. So what I want to say is that I
think you know that. And, and as the illustrations

(52:35):
start to come in, you'll know, you know, you'll look at it and
you'll be able to say whether that image really captures what
it is. And so it'll be fun for us to,
to share those together and to yeah, yeah.
I receive that feedback. That's fair.
That might not be my area of expertise like could I sit in
your shoes and guide a differentauthor through their thing?

(52:58):
I'd really be faking it, Maria. Like that that that I don't feel
at all I have equipped or skilled or given that gift.
But I do agree with you that they're there is a core to the
last that that knows story and being able to tell it and tell
it well and share it is is a gift.
And so for listeners that might be interested in Maria and

(53:19):
knowing more about your work, I know you mentioned your website
earlier. Where can they find you?
I know you're based. You're not too far from me here
in Saint Louis. Do you work with people across
the country, internationally? What else can you share?
I do, I do. Most of my clients are online,
so I'm working with people from all over the country.
I'd love it if folks would come to visit at my website, and

(53:39):
again, it's my initials, MRO creative.com.
They can find information on theediting work that Ioffer and
read some of my own writing. I host gatherings in a space
that they call MRO's Creative Space where writers come
together for inspiration and to talk shop.
I mentioned the free 30 minute consult if anybody would like to

(54:02):
talk to me about their idea and we could see if it might be, if
there might be some ways that I can help.
And I also offer a fun e-mail journey that folks can write up
for. And it's, oh, it's only like 3
or 5 emails, but it's a journey around insights and reflections
on the creative process. And I've got videos in there and
some, you know, questions for reflection and just some, some

(54:25):
ways to help support the creative process.
And so there's some offerings there that that might be of
interest to people. Yeah, this is so cool.
I love being able to share you with my listeners.
I hope listeners, that you have peeked into a whole different
space. And I think what's so beautiful
about the efficacy work that youall are part of it being a
listener is that you know, it's it's it's really adoption isn't

(54:48):
for all of us, right? Like Maria may or may not ever
adopt one day, but and like she's used her skills and her
passion and her heart and such kind of meaningful way in this
space. And so I hope that you have
listened to this episode and been encouraged of like, wow,
like there's really a way that all of us can be part of the
impact and, and helping kids that are in foster care.
So, Maria, thank you so much forjoining us and sharing a little

(55:11):
bit more about your expertise. Totally my pleasure, Marcy.
Thanks so much for the invitation.
Thank you so much for spending time with us.
It truly matters that you listentoday because by tuning in,
you're opening your heart to thestories of children in foster
care, sparking empathy, and starting to see how your unique

(55:33):
role, whether as a friend, advocate, or even as a future
adoptive parent, can bring hope and belonging to a child or
sibling group that is waiting. I also want to personally invite
you to reach out to me to ask anything that's on your heart.
I promise no judgement. You can find me on Facebook,
LinkedIn and Instagram and I mean it when I say you can ask
anything. I know it can feel awkward to

(55:54):
ask questions publicly and that's why I carve out time
during my lunch hour and evenings while my kids and
husband are at martial arts to mentor others one-on-one.
Your questions matter, your curiosity matters, and most
importantly, the role you are playing in helping children in
foster care matters. Together we can bring hope and
belonging. Until next time, take care and

(56:15):
keep the conversation going.