the importance of trauma-informed services

Adoptee-turned-therapist Bre Gronli shares her foster care adoption story, her path to trauma-informed work, and the resources that help shape her own healing.

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
We really should have waiting parents, not waiting children.
Over 100,000 children are available for adoption through
the US foster care system, and 27% don't have anyone like a
relative or foster parent in theprocess of adopting them. 60%
are between the ages of five and17, and 2/3 are part of sibling
groups of two to eight children.Hey listener, my name is Marcy

(00:27):
Bursack. My husband and I chose Adoption
is our Plan A. After blogging about our journey
adopting A sibling pair, I beganmentoring families right in my
own living room. That passion grew into the
Forgotten Adoption Option, a nonprofit and now lead as a
volunteer while working full time in the tech industry.
From my blog, Three Books App, and Classroom Lesson to now a 45
minute course called Foster CareAdoption Simplified, which you

(00:50):
can find at forgottenadoptionoption.com,
I've created practical, heartfelt resources to help
families navigate the foster care adoption process.
As you listen to this episode, Iencourage you to ask yourself,
who in my circle needs to hear this?
It's often people in what we call helper professions.
People like therapists, nurses, doctors, police officers,

(01:11):
firefighters, social workers andteachers.
Like my husband. These are the people who tend to
step forward to adopt children from foster care.
But this work isn't only about becoming an adoptive family.
It's also about becoming an advocate and ally.
Every waiting child deserves notjust a forever family, but a
community of people who championtheir future.

(01:32):
Whatever LED you to this podcast, I am thrilled that you
were here. My mission is simple, to help
every waiting child be with their forever family.
And that's exactly why I host this podcast.
Welcome to the Forgotten Adoption Option podcast.
In this episode we're going to discuss the importance of trauma

(01:55):
informed services. In June of 2025, I took
volunteer time off at my day slash pay job and tech and
traveled to Minnesota to presenta session on a research study
I've been conducting on the barriers that non can adoptive
families face. And I was the national adoption
conference. Now my session was scheduled for
the last day during the last slot of the session, which

(02:15):
actually was a great time for me.
But I realized that that meant that there were people the days
before me and the sessions before me that were somewhere on
this roster. So I sat in my hotel room and
started going to the conference app, but I could see all the
other presenters and attendees and that's what I learned about
Bri Granoli. Hi, Bri.
Hi, thank you. Thrilled to do this.

(02:35):
OK, so bring it was part of the opening keynote panel.
OK, so like, just that to tell you like, Oh my gosh, she's
gonna have so much to share because like, they put her very,
very first mercy on the very first of the conference.
And it was before I even got into town.
So like, there really was like, literally no way I could have
met her. So what I did is I tracked her
down Instagram. And I think at first Bree was

(02:55):
like, this is a joke, right? It's like she saw some stuff
that I was doing on the Kelly Clarkson Show.
So she was like, are you real? I'm like real.
And what really stuck out to me about bringing get this, she was
adopted through the foster care system.
And the other end, big, big end,she pursued a career as a
therapist. And I think that is like the
coolest combination. So I'll let Bri go into detail

(03:16):
to tell us about herself. So Bri, maybe just dive right
into like your intersection of the foster care system.
What brought you to that situation?
Yeah, so goodness, I had a really rough life.
And sometimes I try to figure out like, what is best for me to
share 'cause sometimes it can bea lot and sometimes it's like,

(03:36):
well, we want more information. And so, so I was very young and
experienced a lot of really hardlife experiences and then was
put into foster care, which you'll hear more of my story as
we go on, I'm sure, with all thequestions that you have.
And then as I was just going through the system and the
adoption process, and then as I was just going through life into
my young adolescent years, I always do, I wanted to help

(03:58):
other kids who experienced similar things.
And I thought that my first job would be it.
And then I quickly realized thatwasn't it.
And then it led me to being a therapist.
And so here I am and now I get to share more about my story and
my journey with other people whoare also paving the way for
people to know and understand Foster an adoptive, not only

(04:18):
kids, but families and the big world that this is, that is
often silenced. So I'm just very excited to be
able to not only speak from my lived experience, but also from
my education and training too. Which I think is like the
coolest thing, Bri. I mean, I hate what brings
people into the system, but I love that for you, like that has

(04:39):
LED you into a path that you're able to like.
Hi, this is all with me and it'samazing.
So you actually have a younger brother and you all.
Did you go into care at the sametime, Bree?
Yes. So my younger brother and I were
placed into foster care at the same time.
I don't remember a whole ton of everything that happened when

(05:03):
reading back on some of my case notes because at one point I
wanted to write a book. I went through a period of my
life. Right, listeners, we're all like
free. Finish the book.
Do your books. Yeah.
It's it's in my drafts. I'm like halfway done with it
and then I keep going back and like, no, I can't do that.
And then I want to go back and finish it.
You can. You can.
I'm going to send you a link post.
I may have a course for that. Yes, you can do this.

(05:25):
Great, you can do this. I absolutely need to finish it.
And so I was reading back on some of my old case notes and I
didn't realize that we actually spent the night at the social
worker's office the first two nights because they couldn't
find a place us together becauseI would not let go of my son or
of wow of my son. He felt like a son at the time,

(05:45):
but of my brother. And so I know there was a small
period where they, they did separate us for like a little
bit and it was not good. So then they placed us together
and we ended up in the same foster home together for about 3
1/2 years. And then we were adopted in the
same family. That's an important detail of
colleagues. My husband and I, we adopted
siblings and there is a significant need of families to

(06:08):
say yes. And so I'm glad that eventually
someone did. But at the same time, like the
fact that you're waiting there and I don't know, like I, I
don't, you probably don't remember this piece of it, but
spending the night in the socialworker's office to me means
social worker. Somebody's got to supervise you.
And then like, so I guess that'sjust a normal part of being a
social worker. Sometimes you spend the night at

(06:28):
the office because you have kidsto take care of.
It's just. An interesting.
Role and maybe another story foranother episode, but man and so
OK, so I think you said you wereadopted when you were 10 is
that. Right.
Yeah, I was put into foster carewhen I was about 7:00, and then
around the age of 10 was when I was adopted.

(06:49):
So your brother was like 6:00-ish?
No, he was about 6 years youngerthan me so he was about 3 ish
4:00-ish when we were adopted. But he was just, he was really
little when we were put into foster care.
Yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking the families.

(07:09):
It's interesting, Bree. And listen, I just want to like
bring you into this because I know Bree is like, uh huh.
This is this is the space. There is something that happens
right when like it's a little kid that needs help and kind of
I'm going to call it a middle-aged kid.
And so I could see why that was like, oh, I don't know if I want
this combo. And I could see why that's
difficult. And yet here you are to tell

(07:32):
about it. And so I would encourage us
listeners, if you were thinking that like, oh, that's, that
might have been why. Yeah, it might have been why.
And we're going to own that and we're going to unpack that
because I think it's an important thing just to be
honest about that. Sometimes the the needs and
behaviors and the complexities can be completely different
based upon the child's experience or their ages.
That's so, so much therapy that we could probably go into.

(07:56):
Do you want to say anything about kind of the experience you
had or any input you had on the family that adopted you?
Yeah, well, it's quite a interesting story.
I thought that I remembered it one way.
And then talking to my adoptive parents, my when I say mom, I
mean my adoptive mom. She had helped clear some gaps

(08:19):
and some confusion, but I had always thought that we were put
like into like a magazine or like, 'cause I don't know.
We were living in Iowa at the time and my family is they had
heard about me from, I can't, I don't remember exactly how they
heard about us, but somebody hadtold our story to them and they

(08:40):
were like, we want them before even like knowing us or really
hearing about our story. And then I do remember the
foster home that we actually were in.
We were only supposed to be there for a short time.
And now this is not the case forall foster homes.
I know there's a huge stigma outthere about foster homes being
abusive. So I do want to say that this is

(09:01):
one of those cases where it was not a great foster home.
There was a lot of abuse, all types of abuse that occurred
there. And so it was really hard and I
had already experienced many forms of abuse prior to going to
the foster home. So I didn't know any different
in sharing what had happened to me even as a 7 and almost 10

(09:22):
year old. And so I just assumed that
that's how life was. And not until after I was
adopted did I know that that's not supposed to happen because
my dad, and when I say dad, I mean my adoptive dad, my dad
never hurt me like that, you know, So it was a little
confusing, like, wait, something's not right because

(09:42):
the the things that have happened to me before aren't
happening here. But so then I had a lot of
behaviors, a lot of big angry behaviors.
And so I have no doubt my mind if it was just my brother as a
little one year old people happily take little babies and
little one year olds even up to,you know, like 4.

(10:05):
But you know, they hear 7 and comes with we're not so sure
what happened in her history. She's kind of behavioral.
Immediately they're like, Nope. And then as you just get older,
unfortunately it just gets tougher.
So when when my parents came along and they said they wanted
us and both of us, I was a little skeptic and also very
excited and very protective of my brother.

(10:28):
And I just remember they came over for a family visit and they
my mom has adopted all of my siblings and that family are
adopted. My brother and I are biological
to each other. We have different dads and then
my I have three older sisters and then it would be me and my
brother and then I have a younger sister and my parents
adopted. All of us six or seven.

(10:48):
I left count in the middle of the siblings.
That's. Awesome.
Yeah. So all of my little sister came
after us, but all of my older three siblings came with my
parents. And I remember forcing them
outside to go play in, like the blistering hot sun in Iowa.
And we were like outside chasingand playing catch.
And it was. I remember that very vividly,

(11:10):
them coming to meet us and see us.
And then I just remember waitingon pins and needles if they were
going to take us. And there was like a little, a
little part of me that was like,they're just going to take like
my brother, they don't want me. But then part of me is like,
well, I'm going to make it a lotof fun.
So they do want him. At least he gets a home.
And then when I remember gettingthe call, they're like, Nope,

(11:30):
they want to come see you guys again.
And actually they want to try having you guys go to their
house. And I was like, Oh yes.
So it was just. And after that, I don't remember
how quick it was, but we, from what I remember, it was they
came to visit us, we did a second one and then bam, we were
getting transferred into their home and doing like a trial home
visit, so to say, and then goingthrough the adoption process.

(11:53):
For your heart to go through breed like I'm over here like
just the way you described it, where like you want, like you're
being such a good big sister. I have I have a big sister that
would probably be very similar. That was like, OK, it doesn't
matter me. It's about it's about them,
right? But at the same time, like I, I
don't even know if you remember being told if you cried or if
you screamed or a little bit of both like.
Yeah, I I don't remember what I do remember crying and screaming

(12:17):
though during is when the night we were removed from my mom.
That I remember vividly, but I don't remember looking back now
with my therapy hat on looking back, I'm sure I was people
pleasing and fawning the fight fight or freeze reactions.
I'm sure out of protection and self preservation.
I was in a very much so a I'm going to be a really good little

(12:41):
girl. I'm going to do what they say.
I want them to like us so that we get adopted and then it's not
until after did a lot did they start to see some of the bigger
behaviors. The you're not my mom and I
hate, I hate you and you're stupid and throwing things and
screaming because then, well, now you adopted me.
Now you're stuck with me. You can't get rid of me now.

(13:05):
It's not that easy. So looking at it from both,
holding both sides one end, yes,I'm sure there were emotions.
And then from a therapeutic standpoint, I'm sure I was
stuffing them down. OK, I have two follow up
questions because the word fawning was new to me.
Is fawning related to fight fight freeze?
Is that kind of what is that an acronym?

(13:26):
Nope, fawning. So now you know Walter Cannon,
he came up with through the all of the studies and he created
the three S fight, flight or freeze with our nervous system
and our natural responses. But there's now, since newer
research, probably within the last few years, there's a new
one called fawning and it's likepeople pleasing.

(13:47):
You're just going along with what everybody is saying.
It's kind of like they act like,you know, a deer in a headlight.
It's like you're frozen but functionally going about.
But you're more so just in a people pleasing world.
Like, actually, I don't like scrambled eggs.
And now all of a sudden, I love scrambled eggs because my new
family likes scrambled eggs. All of a sudden my favorite
color is blue because my dad's favorite color is blue.

(14:08):
And so you really, you know, kiddos with trauma are really
good about adapting to their environments very quickly.
And so I would gather to bet everything, I mean, we can have
many different responses at once.
But oftentimes kids, especially in foster care, are like, OK, I
already know who I can go to, who I need to really schmooze.

(14:30):
Oh, that kid over there, I'm going to be extra nice to them
in front of the parents. But then maybe behind closed
doors we might argue and fight alittle bit, or I'm going to eat
whatever they put in front of mebecause I'm not going to
disappoint them. Or I'll wear whatever you.
Need me to and I'll do really good.
You know all those things so that they can survive and stay
in the family. I've not heard that phrase, but
I did do a quick Google. So a baby deer is a fun.

(14:51):
So that's why it's an OK that that OK.
The other question is not that Bree.
It's a little bit different of apivot and I wonder if you would
share. So there are families that I am
coaching and have coached that are in the process of or
currently where the teenager or child over the age of four,
let's just put it that way, is living with them.
And they might be in that reallynice stage you just talked
about. And they're either in the middle

(15:12):
of or about to get to that. I hate you, Sage.
I wonder if you have any encouragement as like the now
adult that was the kid then to help the adults love them well
and to know what to do. Do you have any thoughts there?
Yeah, that could be a whole episode too.
You can almost do like a part series or something I want.

(15:33):
To put back for me, We can, we can go there.
It's cool. You're invited.
Deal. I got to finish that book first
though. I I think that.
You finish that book and I'll belike, come back and bring the
author. We'll talk about.
Oh my gosh, that'd be so cool. Yes, yeah.

(15:54):
The biggest thing that I talk about with parents when they are
in my office expressing some of these frustrations, the worries,
the fears, the excitement, all of it.
I always say something that we as the parents have to be
cognizant of is that, yes, it's very exciting for you guys.
You are getting to bring in a new child into your home.

(16:16):
You're going to provide for them.
You're going to give them a safespace.
And they are also excited and they're also sad.
They're grieving. They're losing a whole entire
piece of who they are. They're losing their family,
their identity. And then the thing that I would
love to see change. I don't even know how to start
it, but we literally are erased.Our previous life is erased in

(16:41):
the sense of I don't have a birth certificate that says
Brianna Brunsma. Nowhere saying like I'm on my
kids bullshitting it and it saysI'm the age of, you know, like,
and I was like I didn't do that.That wasn't in the city, but
it's it's so weird. Yeah, and so I think often times
then, you know, we just like that just gets kind of glazed
over and then all of a sudden I'm Brianna Adams before I even

(17:05):
like knew it. It's like, bam, OK, the judge
did his gravel and OK, there I am.
And so I think like some. Your maiden name, it's still,
it's still the same brief, folks.
She just told you, your maiden. Name, yes, that is my maiden
name. And so then it's, it's just kind
of like a little bit of a whiplash.
And so sometimes what happens with kiddos is they all of a

(17:27):
sudden like kind of come out of that and then it starts to
settle. You know, that honeymoon phase
is done. So the biggest thing that I push
in my office is you have to connect.
You just have to, you cannot go in and be like, OK, we are going
to just love these kids and we're just going to love them.
And, and they're going to everything is going to be
perfect and fine because I'm giving them all this love.

(17:49):
Good. Give them the love.
And we need routine. We need predictability, we need
stability, we need consistency. You can't get mad at me for
spilled milk because, OK, now I'm not going to come to you
with bigger things. And so the other thing too is
you have to lower your bars. You have to be OK with not

(18:10):
having these big expectations. Not one-size-fits-all.
Often times I hear, well, I've raised a lot of kids in my day
and so it, it'll be fine. I'm like, and then I laugh and
I'm like, OK, you do that and you come tell me how that works
out for you. Usually they come back and
they're like, OK, fine, you wereright.
What do we need to do? It's like weird.
So you know, I meet them with compassion, of course.

(18:34):
And I just want to like, I, we have a phrase in our office like
I'm going to flick you in the head because we told you this.
But sometimes you gotta, sometimes you have to learn on
your own too. And you know, it's just how can
we lower that bar of expectations?
You cannot raise kiddos who comefrom trauma the same way that

(18:54):
you would raise a child who is adopted and coming from a severe
traumatic background. You just can't because the, the
level of cognition is different.We have different reactions,
different behaviors. And so really, how can you work
on like connecting and just being extremely patient with

(19:14):
these kids? It's like, not an understatement
at all. I know that when my husband and
I were chosen for children, theyreally loved that he was a
teacher. And I think a lot of that was
like, oh, he's really patient. He'll be great.
He'll be a great dad. And I think it's interesting to
hear your reflection on that, especially just given where your
lens is, both as lived experience and your professional
work now. Because I know sometimes as an

(19:36):
adoptive parent, I'll talk to people and they're like, Oh,
well, even my biological kid or even biological, OK.
And there are similarities, like, I'm not gonna dismiss that
at all. And there are things that look
really similar. But then there's also stuff
that's like, this is completely different.
And so I think people usually come in from a good place when
they're like, I'm trying to relate to you.
I'm trying to encourage you. But sometimes it's like, and
this is really hard. This is like, really, really

(19:57):
hard. I appreciate you sharing that,
Bree. I think that that just gives
kind of a reality check of like,it's OK, Like this, this is kind
of expected. And it's normal.
And I'm curious before we kind of pivot into your professional
life, I'm curious with kind of your, your adoption, did you all
maintain an open relationship with your biological family?
They call it like an open adoption.

(20:18):
I don't entirely know my older siblings that were adopted
before me, but no, my adoption was a closed adoption.
I was through the system and I do I I know very little of like
the agreement that happened between, but I do not believe
there is any contact. My birth mom was in prison for

(20:39):
drugs and later on I had disclosed some other abuse that
had happened. And, you know, there was just a
lot, just a lot that came out through my own therapy that my
brain had blocked. And so I know she had went to
prison for like 14 years. And then until I was 18, I

(21:00):
believe it was until I was 18, Iwas to have no contact with her.
Now, I don't know if she tried to reach out and try to talk to
my parents or what that looks like.
I know I think she was able to send letters, but my parents
could open and, like, make sure they are appropriate and they
would decide to give. But as far as I remember, the

(21:22):
only time I ever remember havingcontact with her was when I was
in foster care and they had to do the visits on site.
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
I also had a thought that came to me and it's probably a little
out of order, so I'm. Sorry, but let's just love out
of order. I'm all over the place, so just
do a brief. When you were talking earlier to
another piece of advice I think would be really helpful for

(21:44):
parents, you know, that 4 year old and also bam, the behaviors
come in depending on their situation.
Everybody's so unique. Nobody is the same, but there
are sometimes similarities. And you know, I think a real
commonality that kiddos that arein foster care do and are
waiting adoption is we give tests, we test the crap out of

(22:08):
our foster parents and out of our adoptive parents because we
are saying we're checking, are you going to keep me or are you
going to give me away just like the previous home did?
Or what happens if I do this? How much is going to be too
much? Because there's no way that you
love me like you love your own kids or there's no way you
actually want me. I will show you how big and bad

(22:30):
I can be. And I want to see what you're
going to do with that. And then I bet next week I'll
be, I'm packing my, you know, myblack trash bag and I'll be
moving to the next home. And so I think another big part
of that is, is especially four and five and six and even all
the way up to 10. I mean, we don't always have the
words for our experience. So instead we use our big

(22:50):
behaviors and we use our way of testing to see how you're going
to handle it and how you're going to respond to us.
And I would even say even beyondage 10, like just like from my
own experience enough to mom andfrom what I have mothers like.
And I think sometimes just our behaviors are really loud.
Yeah, thank you for mentioning that.
I think that's just again, listeners, my hope is that

(23:11):
you're hearing, as always, just real.
This is how it really is. And if you know what's coming
and you know what to expect, it helps you better be informed.
And maybe it helps you as is a therapist.
Maybe you're a therapist and you're more empathetic, or maybe
it kind of helps you say like, Idon't really want to do this.
I don't, I want to help from theoutside.
I don't want to live with. And that's cool too.
So we just want to make sure that you're informed about what

(23:33):
real is. But Brisa, Fast forward, you age
poof, and you go down this path to become a therapist.
And I have several friends that are therapists.
I'm very, very intrigued here because you can go any
different. It's like medical school, right?
Like you can go to any different, like discipline you
want. What led you specifically to
focus on helping children process trauma and their foster

(23:54):
care experiences? Yeah, well, I was actually going
to school to be an elementary teacher and an undergrad.
And then I got done with my first semester, and I looked at
my stuff and I was like, yeah, this is not for me.
And then I walked into my advisor's office and I was like,
I don't know what to tell you, but I can't stay on this track.

(24:15):
And she's like, well, let's see what else there is so that you
don't lose years and don't have to stay longer.
And social work ended up being the most closely related field,
oddly enough. God was at work and he was like,
here you go. So that put me on the direction
and I graduated and then I worked in the child protection
system for quite a while and I would do forensic interviews.

(24:38):
I did ongoing casework, you know, more so with the court
side of things. I would do the case management.
I did the child removals. I mean, you name it, I've done
it. I did the foster care licensing
and backup. I did all the things and now, of
course, during that time I was not in therapy, I was not
working on myself. I was.
Because that's like very, very close.

(25:01):
Yeah, yeah, it was. It was really hard.
And you know, I wasn't very openabout my story.
My Co workers didn't really know, you know, about my past
abuse and my lived experiences. And so I was just kind of like
this tight little button up, like I'm going to be miss
perfect and do all the things, right.

(25:23):
Well, you start out and you think you can save the world.
I'm going to save all these kids.
I'm going to help them. I'm going to be their savior.
I'm going to do all the things for them.
And I quickly realized that that's not the case.
And there's a lot of expectations on social workers
and you quickly get exhausted. And so I did that for about 5

(25:43):
years. And at the time my now best
friend, Co worker, she was like,you should really go to grad
school and you should really think about being a therapist.
I was like, yeah, right. I am not doing grad school.
I'm not smart enough for that. There's no way.
I barely made it through undergrad.
I was naughty in college. I did not.
I didn't emphasize my life on studying.

(26:05):
I just made it through. And then I found a job.
So I was like, there's no way. And then all of a sudden I got
this really tough case and I wasjust done.
I was crying almost daily on my way to work.
I was exhausted. I was not being the best wife.
I was a really cranky mom. My kids had not seen me for

(26:27):
about a month. I know other people are tucking
them in. So I was just like, this is not
I'm just done. And I hate this.
And it's so true. But the system is so broken and
I was just so sick of being on that side of things with those
kids. I didn't want them to hear the
name Bree and think, oh great, she's the one that removed me.
She's part of my trauma story. I wanted to be part of the

(26:50):
healing story. So I literally wrote my
resignation letter without telling my husband.
And I gave my notice and I went home.
And my husband and I hadn't eventalked about it.
And we both looked at each otherand he's like, I think you need
to quit. And I was like, good, because I
turned in my letter today and I applied for grad school and I
got in. And at the same time, what did I

(27:12):
say? He was like, what?
I was like, yeah. And he's like, well, I think you
should be a play therapist. I was like, Oh my gosh, that's
what I applied for. Same time.
We were both like, no, you're done.
Like go back to school. And he's so supportive.
Even if I he hadn't told me that, he would have been right
behind me supporting me. So then began the jury.

(27:34):
You just like. Yep, if there's anything to know
about me, I'm always I jump right on in without any
research. I just do the thing, No Fear.
Go. And my best friend Whitney,
she's like a researcher. She's like, no, we're going to
take it slow. And I was like, no, I'm doing it
bye. So we've really balanced each
other out, which is nice. But yeah, now the rest is

(27:56):
history. I graduated, I focused on a
trauma certificate. I, I'm trying to even remember
how I got connected with, I started out, they used to be
called Min Adopt, but now they're Foster Adopt Minnesota
and my name, I got asked to be on a panel and kind of similar
for the National Adoption Conference.

(28:18):
And it just kind of really blossomed from there.
And I said, I love using my story.
I had done a lot of therapy already, so I was feeling very
grounded and it just really tookoff.
And then I just really kind of exploded from there.
And so I absolutely love using my story to help others.

(28:38):
I have in my therapy bio that I'm adopted and that I'm foster
dot competent and I'm a vetted therapist through the the
through the foster adopt. And oftentimes people are
reaching out to me because they're like, my child is
adopted. No other therapist can connect
when you please see them. And I said, absolutely.
And I'm open, but appropriate, you know, as needed.

(29:01):
And I'm very open with parents too.
You know, this is what could be going through your child's head.
Now, I'm not your child and we have similar situations.
And so just from an adoptive person's perspective, this is
what could be happening and whatthe feedback I've gotten is just
like my child has never felt seen or heard before.
And now they know and I'll neverforget.

(29:23):
I had a little girl, I asked if I could share this story and
they said yes. The parents that I have a little
girl that I'm working with currently.
And she had tried like 4 different therapists and she was
just coloring my in my office and we were laying on the ground
on her stomachs and she was, shewas giving all these details of
like what me too. And she was just like coloring

(29:45):
really hard on the paper. And I was coloring really light.
And I'm a somatic trained therapist too.
So I was really paying attentionto her heart.
She was pressing on this paper like she could have ripped it if
she wanted. And then she was giving more
details like me too. And she was like, no way.
And I was like, yes. And then all of a sudden she
stopped coloring. And I was like, you know what?
She's like what I was like, sometimes I really, really,

(30:08):
really hate being adopted. And I just get so mad about it.
And she looked at me and she's like, what?
I feel that way all the time. And nobody ever said that was
OK. I was like, it's OK, honey, you
can you cannot like it. Sometimes it's very normal to go
through those feelings. And then she just, you know, she
just poured out. And so it was just like, it's

(30:30):
just, I feel like there's such an added layer to be able to
give to these kids that are hurting in ways that people just
don't understand. You can do all the reading and
all the learning and all the education, but until you live it
and until you experience it, it's really hard for people to
be able to show that type of empathy.
Yeah. Wow, Bree.

(30:52):
And I think like, I hope listeners like if you know
someone or you are someone that has this kind of lived
experience, like one of my hopesin this episode is that you hear
this and think I didn't think about that as a career path.
I could still do that or I know someone could.
Like there, there is ample opportunity.
Yeah. Part of this.
I also think we, our listeners probably say to you, like, you
better finish your book because we know like what you just
shared. It's like, so just life giving.

(31:13):
You mentioned a little bit ago it was you did some forensic
interviewing for those that might not be as familiar with
the space. Can you describe what that is?
Yeah, So I'm not in the state ofMinnesota.
There's child advocacy centers, a CAC centers, what we call them
for short and in order in those centers are specifically

(31:34):
designed for like the worst of the worst abuse like severe
physical abuse, severe neglect and sexual trauma.
And so often times, at least in the state that I'm in, when a,
when a report comes in, we have two tracks that we can go.
We have, yes, this meets guidelines for child protection

(31:54):
need. And you can go down a
investigative route or you can go down a family assessment.
An investigative is immediate. Usually the police are involved.
You do an interview with them and you do your own.
You guys really like coordinate with each other.
And so forensic interview would be either somebody who's trained

(32:15):
in doing the child advocacy interview that is very specific
criteria and very specific outlines on how to ask questions
for children. So you're not leading so that
you can hopefully get some sort of like disclosure so that the
police can use that for their own investigation if they need
to press charges or not. And then despite what the police

(32:36):
do, then we go our separate waysand then we as the child
protection worker and investigator decide is there any
maltreatment that occurred? And so then if so, then we make
that determination based on all the interviews and all the
information we've gathered and coordinating with the officer.
And then we move forward with, you know, safety for the child.

(32:57):
The family assessment route is alot more low key.
You know, it's give or take, youknow, about a month long and
then you come in and you go, what resources can I provide
you? How can we team up?
How can we make sure this doesn't happen again?
Whereas the investigative route with the forensic interview is a
lot more serious. That we're just down so strange
sometimes and like who who namesthese things?

(33:18):
But. No, I know for real.
But it's helpful to understand kind of the work you were in
before, but kind of going back. So you've taken us to you go to
school, you're you're doing likefront line work and then it's
triggering and then poof, somehow like you go through all
sorts of something to heal and get you mentioned the word
grounded to now be where you are.

(33:39):
Can you kind of shed a little light on like, how did you find
that healing? Did that take years?
Like what? What was that journey like for
Brie? Yeah, it took.
It's still ongoing, to be honest.
Like I'm still in current therapy.
My current therapist is amazing.I really enjoy her.

(33:59):
It has. I used to have a therapist at
that time, and then she and I had worked together for several
years, and then she moved to Arizona and she was not keeping
her Minnesota license. So then all of a sudden I was
without a therapist and I went through many who could
understand what I went through. Because if you're not trauma
informed, I'm sure I would look like I have like borderline

(34:22):
personality disorder or like even maybe some other like manic
maybe sometimes. But I have very severe chronic
PTSD. And if you're not, This is why
it's so important to do the education because you can really
mislabel somebody and that will follow them for the rest of

(34:43):
their lives. And so that is something I do
not take lightly when I'm givinga diagnosis to a child or an
adult or even a teen. And I really utilize A trauma
informed lens to and for my practice because I know how much
that would hurt if I was missed,you know, mislabeled or
misdiagnosed. And then also too, that just
sends you down your own Rd. of like, what?

(35:04):
What does this mean? So yes, a lot, a lot, a lot, a
lot of therapy, lot of trauma therapy, a lot of my own
reflective work. Like I always tell my clients,
like, look, you can come in hereone hour a week, but it's not
really gonna do much. I'm glad that you feel safe in
here, but you have got to do thework on the outside.

(35:25):
And so I give a lot of homework,a lot of resources, a lot of
podcasts, a lot of books, workbooks, like we do all the
things together. But I would say the biggest
turning point for me honestly, was when I and my friend decided
to go do our somatic experiencing certification
program, which is 3 years long. And what is really amazing about

(35:47):
this program is it's created by Doctor Peter Levine and it's
based on how our nervous system processes our trauma, how it can
be stored in the body and how sometimes that gets stuck if we
don't finish the stress responsecycle, which is very common with
trauma. Not all the time is trauma,
trauma until it's trauma. And so it's his biggest thing

(36:11):
and he actually, he has many, many great resources.
If you go to traumahealing.org, there's all sorts of
information. And the really amazing thing
about this program is it's not just the learning program, it is
a learning and a doing program. While you're also learning this
information, which is the very intense, if you want to get the

(36:33):
certificate, if you have the letters SCP behind your name,
you know that you have a true somatic therapist because we
have done the work. We experienced the work that
we're learning while we're students and we're learning it.
So essentially for the past three years, I've been having
somatic experience with therapy done and it has been life

(36:55):
changing. If you met me three years ago, I
am not the same person. I'm a lot more patience, I'm a
lot calmer, I have way better coping skills, I'm able to
recognize my triggers a lot quicker, I can notice, and I can
take better accountability without feeling shame.
And with all of that too, I meanamazing supports.

(37:17):
My best friend is my rock. She is amazing.
She's a sister essentially, and without her, I don't know her
And my husband. My husband is the most patient
man in the world. And so on top of my own therapy,
doing my own work and not stopping and becoming complacent
and having a really, really goodsupport team has really been

(37:39):
tremendously helpful. And my kids, you know, they call
me out, they say, mom, you're not being a very nice mom right
now. And you know, normally you want
to get defensive, but I'm like, you're right.
I'm not and I'm sorry. So let me rewind.
I'm going to redo that. That is so, so good.
OK. So you mentioned the letters
SDP, is that somatic experience professional?

(38:01):
Somatic experiencing practitioner.
Yep. OK, OK, now we know and I.
Just earned it back in August ofthis year.
So we just completed our programthis year in August.
Aw, congratulations. Three years later.
Three years later. See you guys.
Can I have the time to write your book?
Bree? I'm just gonna.
I'm gonna go back there. For real circle.

(38:21):
For real, wow, thank you for sharing all that.
And so OK, so I want the kind of, I want to lean into this
like trauma informed place and like just the label and the
name. Cuz I know that in my own
journey for looking for a therapist and just to give
listeners bring you into like how therapy works this.
If somebody could fix this, I would love it.

(38:42):
I get really frustrated cuz you mentioned in your own experience
where your therapist moved out of state and so therefore you
and therapist broke up. That drives me bonkers.
It drives me bonkers. And so there's a prior episode
with Allison Davis Maxson, who works on some of these elements
about permanency and adoption. It's incredible.
Which is California and such to California.

(39:02):
Like you can't, I just I wish wecould just share, share the
knowledge. And so she's at workbooks.
But anyway, just a little littlequalm marks who wanted to plug
in there. But I'm curious when you
mentioned being trauma informed,like can you explain what that
is and like why is it important?Yeah, there's another episode

(39:23):
for you. It's so true.
It's so hard when your therapistthat you've developed such a
deep, deep, deep relationship with they, they have a life too
and, and they have to go their way And it's really it that was
tricky. That was really hard.
And I loved working with my previous therapist and I'm, I

(39:46):
miss her a lot because she was very phenomenal.
And I love my new therapist too.So if you're listening, I think
some of the biggest things are as parents, like interview the
people that you're interested inand just because you sign up,
you know, doesn't necessarily mean that you have to stay with

(40:07):
that person. I think a lot of times because
there is a shortage of therapists, people get nervous.
Like great, you know, I waited ayear to get in with this person.
Now I got to now I don't really like them and now I got to wait
a whole another year to get withsomebody else.
Get on several wait lists at once and just really do your
research, ask around, send an e-mail to the therapist.
I. People e-mail me all the time.

(40:29):
They're like, hey, this is what I'm looking for.
Do you think we'd be a good fit for you?
We've heard you refer to us and I'll respond honestly.
I'm like, you know, I just don'tknow.
I'm really not like educated themost in autism and you know, the
trauma aspect. Absolutely.
But there are other resources out there for people who are
specifically trained to work with autism and on the spectrum.

(40:50):
And so just really staying within your scope.
And I think that alone speaks volumes because there are a lot
of therapists who will be like, yeah, I'll take you.
And it's really not in their scope.
And so I think to finding somebody in their bio that is
very like, we can't be a Jack ofall trades.
What is your specialty? Does the person hone it down?

(41:14):
I used to think like, OK, I could do this and I could be
great at this. And then as I grown in my
practice, I'm like, no, I'm really like, I'm not one to just
deal with like somebody who's struggling with not that
depression, anxiety are not big things.
Those are. That's not what I'm saying.
And I do a much better job with like that deep seated trauma,

(41:36):
the sex trafficking, the severe sexual abuse, the incest, the
severe physical abuse, the very severe custody cases that nobody
wants to take those, you know, high conflict things.
Those are what I and my Co worker really, we team up a lot.
She'll work with parents, I workwith the kids and then we come
together to support the whole family unit and really figuring

(42:01):
out like what is your niche? And my niche I've come to decide
is those high conflicts, those adoption foster care cases.
Often time comes with all the big T trauma and all the, the
abuse situations that happen. And so is the therapist that
you're starting to vet or starting to look into, do they

(42:23):
offer parent support sessions? Do they really dig into like my
parents always giggle at me during my intake sessions
because I'm like, OK, I want to hear about your pregnancy.
I want to hear about like even the food or the medicine you
were taking while pregnant. Did you exercise?
What's your guys eating like? Your sleeping habits, social

(42:44):
supports? I don't want just tell me why
your child is here although theyhave big behaviors.
No, I want like everything, giveme everything because there is a
lot of things that happen even in womb that can years later
that we've learned in our somatic program that years later
can show up as in the child. And children are smart.

(43:05):
They know they will share inherently things that they do.
I have 3 year olds that I've worked in my office before and
they talk all the time about being in their mom's womb.
So it is very interesting to have those intake sessions and
that's where I really like decide, OK, Yep, I think we're
going to be a great fit or no, we're just I don't think that

(43:26):
we're really going to be a good fit.
This is what I really specializein and you know, here are some
other people that I think would be better for you.
It's. Key because I know in my own
like family situation, you have to kind of call around and I we
recently had a situation where we were shifting the focus and
it was oh, you know, we're we'renot actually good at that, but
hold on. I know someone and we were like,
OK, and it's it's just hard Bree.

(43:47):
I think when and and listeners, this is a new situation just
like feel encouraged like I think I had a call like over a
dozen different people and reachout on like psychology.com and
people always reach back out andit gets really frustrating.
But then when you find the rightperson, it's like amazing.
It's just it's work to get there.
And so Bree, we've spent a little bit of time talking about
essentially parents kind of raising children going through

(44:10):
some of this or who have gone through this.
I'm curious as we kind of close down what any advice you want to
give to maybe people that are involved within that child's
life, whether they're a teacher,a therapist, a social worker.
Are there resources that you would guide them to to better
understand trauma? Yeah, absolutely.

(44:31):
What I always leave parents withis that you are choosing your
hard. It's going to be hard now up
front. Or if you decide that you're too
exhausted to deal with it, it's going to be hard later when
they're teenagers or when they're young adults and they
don't want to come around anymore, vice versa, right?
And so choose your hard and knowthat the things that you're
doing now are creating the building blocks for later.

(44:53):
And same thing with like the professionals that are involved
with these kids, like you were planting seeds that you have no
idea is even taking root. And it's really sad, but you
might not ever get to see the plant and the growth that
happens from that tiny little seed that you planted.
I wish with every fiber in my being, I could find the man that

(45:14):
called my mom in when we checkedinto that hotel and were removed
because he literally changed thetrajectory of my life.
He created this ripple effect that he had no idea he created.
And I full heartedly believe if I had not been adopted, I would
be doing drugs and I would probably be dead by now and I
would have how many kids removedfrom me.

(45:35):
And so I have always shared thatyou it only takes one caring at
all, just one. And that is it.
And be that one for that child. So that that is huge.
And that's important. And I know as professionals, we
get burnt out. And so really paying attention
to your own self-care, I think is extremely important because

(45:58):
if you're not doing your own self-care, then your clients can
feel that. And then that's when you start
to go into like the unethical decisions that sometimes happen.
And so absolutely Waking the Tiger is an amazing book by
Doctor Peter Levine for the somatic work.
That'd be a great introduction. Secure Love and Good Insight are

(46:19):
both amazing attachment books. I'm almost done with Secure Love
and it has been very influentialin my practice.
And that really talks about how the attachment style dictates
how we communicate and how we interact with the world around
us. And good inside, it's just the
parent to the child. Secure love is more so for like

(46:40):
a romantic relationship or like a friendship from adult to
adult. But good good inside is more of
that parent to child interactionattachment work.
Those would be great. Anything Karen Purvis TDRI trust
based relational interventions. Amazing.
Karen Purvis is an she was an amazing woman.
She's having my listener's homework breathe lots of

(47:02):
homework. I love homework.
Do your own work. Even therapists have therapists
like find find how you can startto do your own healing because
it is worth it and you are worthit.
And once you can start to do your own healing, you're going
to be a better worker because ofit. 100% So Bree, I do wonder

(47:24):
now that you know what you know,like you've been through what
you've been through, you've schooled, you've gone through
your own journey, you're on yourown journey.
I'm curious and this would kind of be directed to maybe maybe
there's someone listening that is in foster care right now or
they age out of the system and they're just like, like I wonder
like what the Bree of now wishesthey could tell the Bree back
then. Man, that's a hard question.

(47:52):
You know, I made it through the whole episode of crying.
You're welcome to cry. I will cry with you.
I don't know. I think, I think honestly, I
don't know if there's any words that I would give.
Do you wish you did anything sooner or do you think that
something that you could have heard as your your young preteen

(48:12):
self, if anything would have helped you kind of go through
like the tough ahead? Do you think there's anything
that would have helped? Sometimes silence is OK.
And I think I would probably just hold myself and just, you
know, wrap myself up and just know, like, life isn't supposed
to be this hard and it's going to get better and you're going
to do amazing things with the experiences that you have lived.

(48:36):
And it's OK to be angry. It's OK to feel that and to
express that, and someday you'lldo something great with the
anger and she'll work through it.
But I really think, probably, honestly, I think I would just
scoop a little me up and I wouldjust hold her and I would just.

(48:57):
Sometimes touch is so powerful from human to human.
It is the last thing we learned in our somatic program was
somatic touch and the power of just offering support from one
human to another is just withoutwords.
And I think if you had probably asked me that before I had

(49:17):
completed that program, I probably would have a whole list
of things I would say to the younger version of myself.
But when you said that, the picture that I have in my head
is just me now, just holding tiny little me and just
whispering like you're going to be OK.
And it's encouraging. Bree, where can we find you?
Yeah, on Instagram, I am not a fit.

(49:40):
I wish I could that too. My my best friend and I, we have
a a page called Barefooted Besties and we just like to
share life on there. We're super silly.
We like to have fun. We're both therapists.
She's an LMFT and LMFT. Is a licensed.
Marriage, family therapist, cool.

(50:02):
And she's also very trauma informed and we work a lot
together. We joke that we don't not see
each other almost every day. So we're actually seeing each
other tomorrow on the weekend. And so that is a great page.
We give education, we do funny reels, we use real life
experiences as we're both parents.

(50:24):
And so we just try to use our real life to to help educate and
give encouragement. e-mail is probably a great way for that.
So grateful. That you said yes to speaking at
the conference. I don't know that we ever would
have. I mean, maybe I would have seen
you in a feed one day. I don't know.
But I am so grateful what I did.I will tell you, Bree, what I

(50:44):
did when I was looking through people, because it's a national
adoption conference. There's all sorts of, there's
infant adoption and international adoption and
foster care adoption. And I was there representing
foster care adoption. And so I was looking for other
people and I saw you in my heartjust like left Bree because I
was like, wait a minute, like she why?
Like she well, she lived with the stuff she's doing this.

(51:05):
So I, I really hope you finishedyour book brief.
I really, I think you have such a story to tell to not just you
already are telling it and usingit, but I think you have a world
of people to breach. And I'm so grateful that you've
taken time to talk to my listeners and to share with us.
It's been very insightful. And so we hope to see you back
on a future episode. So thanks for coming.

(51:25):
Yes. Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for spending time with us.
It truly matters that you listentoday because by tuning in,
you're opening your heart to thestories of children in foster
care, sparking empathy and starting to see how your unique
role, whether as a friend, advocate, or even as a future

(51:47):
adoptive parent, can bring hope and belonging to a child or
sibling group that is waiting. I also want to personally invite
you to reach out to me to ask anything that's on your heart.
I promise no judgement. You can find me on Facebook,
LinkedIn and Instagram and I mean it when I say you can ask
anything. I know it can feel awkward to
ask questions publicly and that's why I carve out time

(52:08):
during my lunch hour and evenings while my kids and
husband are at martial arts to mentor others one-on-one.
Your questions matter, your curiosity matters, and most
importantly, the role you are playing in helping children in
foster care matters. Together we can bring hope and
belonging. Until next time, take care and
keep the conversation going.