October 3, 2025 • 30 mins
Learn more about: Bank & Vogue
A single pair of jeans can live many lives, and sometimes its next one is a luxury handbag or a cult-favorite sneaker. In this episode, we sit down with Steven Bethell, co-founder of Bank & Vogue and Beyond Retro, to talk about how secondhand fashion has gone from thrift bins to high-profile collaborations with Converse, Coach, and Wrangler. 👖
Steven takes us behind the scenes of circular fashion at scale: moving millions of garments each week, partnering with charities and private collectors, and building remanufacturing pipelines that give old materials a new life. He explains why he refuses to use the word “waste,” how language can shift mindsets, and why circular design is about more than sustainability—it’s about culture, creativity, and style. 👟
Along the way, we explore how authentic, lived-in textiles can be transformed into something new, how brands are measuring impact through life cycle assessments, and why embracing the “consistently inconsistent” nature of secondhand is actually a strength.
🎧 If you’ve ever wondered how secondhand becomes first choice, this conversation is for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:01):
Welcome to the Four Worlds Podcast from Tomorrow's
World Today.
We're diving into the latest intech, science, and
sustainability, from nature'smysteries in the world of
inspiration to the hands-oncrafts of creation, the bold
breakthroughs of innovation, andthe scaled-up wonders of
production.
This is your ticket to thestories shaping tomorrow.
(00:24):
Welcome to another episode ofthe Four Worlds Podcasts.
Co-founder of Bank and Vogue,Stephen Bethel, joins us today
to discuss the Beyond Retrobrand's role in circular fashion
and second-hand clothing.
Steven, welcome to the show.
We're looking forward to thisone.
Yeah, it's all right.
Thank you very much for havingme.
Absolutely.
We're excited.
And I just wanted to start itoff, kind of give you the
(00:46):
platform to take us back intothe day to 1992, the launch of
Bank in Vogue, and then shortlyafter, I mean not so shortly, a
decade later, introducing BeyondRetro.
Just take me through your storyand how that timeline kind of
went.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
Yeah.
So we started in we're aCanadian company uh based out of
Ottawa Capital, Ottawa, which isthe capital of Canada.
It's kind of the place thatfashion forgot, but let's not
let's not let's not bring thatup.
But really, there's thisinteresting intersection, and
we've always been in the spaceof the of the secondhand
(01:23):
clothing space, and uh just inthe recycling space, rather.
And this idea of finding valuewhere others don't find value,
it really is something that'sresonated for 25 years.
It's this innovative andrelevant solutions to the crisis
of stuff.
(01:43):
And you you know, you look atyour closet, you look in that,
you know, everybody has thatdrawer in their kitchen that is
like the catch all drawer, themiscellaneous drawer.
I have two of them.
And that's a drawer that I'mlike, I celebrate and love.
It's the stuff in it's the stuffdrawer.
And you're like, oh, hey,there's that tool to remove the
(02:05):
stub off a strawberry that noone, you know, you bought and
then you forgot you had.
But it's this, it's this idea ofdiscovery and finding that has
always been like an element ofthe business.
So the business, uh, our bankand vogue, what we do is we work
with charities and privatecollectors to find homes for
(02:27):
products that couldn't sell in adomestic store or that were
collected across the UnitedStates and Canada in charity
bins.
So when you when you do yourspring clean out of all your
clothes or your household goods,your shoes, your purses and
belts, where we live in theecosystem is finding relevant
homes for that product.
(02:48):
So like where where does thatwhere does that go?
When you donate something to acharity and they pulled out what
they can to sell it, whathappens to the balance of that
product?
And that's what Bank and Vogueis focused on.
It's just a jambalaya of appareland footwear and handbags.
It's it's in that complete stuffrealm.
But I love stuff.
(03:09):
Yeah, I love things that aren'tthe same.
You know, you go into a highstreet store or you know, name
your HM or your Zara, and you'vegot a whole rail of exactly the
same thing.
The joy about our world is wedeal with everything that's
unique.
And that's that's a that's aplace that I absolutely love.
SPEAKER_02 (03:25):
So would you consider your your love of stuff
and just the the culture thatyou grew up in as part of the
inspiration that that helped getBank and Vogue off the ground
and of course beyond retro?
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
Yeah, and it's and it's it's also so I I grew up in
a in a family.
Every weekend we would go toantique sales or or farm
auctions.
And you know, and they used tohave these farm auctions where
you'd, you know, there'd be aguy standing on a hay wagon and
they'd pull up boxes out of thisguy's farmhouse, and you'd buy
random boxes of whatever, andthen the the joy of discovery
(04:02):
has never been lost.
And so now those random boxeshave moved from the one box
coming out of the at the auctionto you know, we're moving
containers of material, so liketractor shadow loads, and on a
on a weekly basis, it's Bank ofVogue is now moving four million
garments a week of secondhandclothes.
(04:24):
So there's like literally thescale of stuff that we have in
North America is like it's justto me fascinating.
Do you know do you know thatAmericans buy 450 million pairs
of jeans a year?
I don't doubt it at all.
450 million pairs of jeans.
SPEAKER_02 (04:40):
Like you think about that, it's like it's kind of one
of those numbers that you can'teven wrap your head around.
450 million pairs.
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
And if the average garment lives in an American
closet for two and a half years,wow.
It's not only the volume ofproduct, but it's the velocity
of product.
And what's really exciting is tofind for Bank and Fogue, our job
is to say, okay, you know, ifthe average life expectancy is
two and a half years, how do wefind another closet where that
(05:11):
could live in?
And in terms of like the bestthing that we can do to lower
our impact on the things that weconsume, is can we consume
something that's already beenmade?
Can we just buy from a thriftstore instead of going and
buying at a high street store oron your, you know, your main
flag tree store?
(05:32):
Because we've all seen thestatistics about how much water
it takes, how much land ittakes, how much chemicals it
takes, how much fossil fuels ittakes.
But what if we could change thenarrative that, you know, it's
not only a better thing, it'sactually what's interesting is
that it's it actually hasauthenticity or character.
(05:53):
You know, you you think aboutyou know, buying that pair of
jeans that somebody else hasworn in for you.
The absurdity of of modernity iswe're buying jeans where people
are sanding them and puttingholes in them to make them look
old.
SPEAKER_02 (06:07):
Really?
The the the vintage trend hashas gone to just not ridiculous
measures, but measures that havejust exceeded any sort of
expectation I had when vintagestarted becoming uh a big thing.
So is this something that notthat bank and vogue and and your
(06:28):
team kind of takes advantage of,but is this something that just
kind of makes you stop andwonder what's like, wow, this
this could be turned intosomething great where we can
take some of this vintageclothes and actually do good
with it?
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
I think that it it isn't the the better way to
answer that is that we have a wehave a team of people that have
loved the so Beyond Retro, whichis our retail arm, is it's an
accumulation of amazing peoplethat are in love with that with
authenticity.
And it isn't necessarily thatwe're that we set out to go, oh,
(07:04):
there's a trend, let's chasethat vintage trend.
We were just standing in the waywhen you know the rest of the
there was a a greater acceptanceof what we were doing made had
authenti authenticity that spoketo a bigger audience, right?
And so rather than us sayingthat that we were chasing a
(07:25):
trend, I think the trend came toour door, you know.
So in Beyond Retro, our firstshop was in East London in
Shoreditch in a at in an olddairy barn in East London.
And you know, 20 years ago whenwe opened our first store, it
would have been really hard forus to get a high like a main
(07:45):
footfall location, just thelandlords themselves wouldn't
have said yes.
But Beyond Retro now has a shop,for example, on the Queen's Road
in Stockholm, uh Drotting.
We have a shop on Argyle Street,which is right off Oxford in the
UK.
We have a shop in the thisdevelopment called the Cold
(08:07):
Drops in in King's Cross inLondon.
And one of the best pieces ofreal estate in Europe.
Google just opened its Europeanheadquarters there.
Samsung is above us, like it's areally amazing space.
But the reality is with thatspace, is that 20 years ago
those landlords wouldn't havetaken us on.
So it's the interesting thing iswe were we had built a business
(08:28):
because we loved what we weredoing.
But all of a sudden, thelandlords and the and all of the
people that need to let you intothat world said, hey, you know,
why don't you put a shop?
And and our location on onArgyll Street is owned by the
Crown.
Oh, no kidding.
Yeah, and and what's reallyamazing about that is that the
Crown specifically sought us outand said, Hey, what if the
(08:51):
landscape of the offering thatwe have in our area includes
secondhand?
To go to your question, a littlebit of a meandering answer is
the irony is that it's not justabout the trend coming to our
door, but it's also about acommunity of people that get
that secondhand has a legitimateplace in the landscape of
(09:13):
fashion.
SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
So how does that, you know, how does that make you
feel just looking back, startingthis up in 1992 and see and
seeing where it is now?
How does that kind of make youfeel when you sit back and look
look at it?
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
I like the line from The Sopranos, which is the
lowest form of conversationstarts with remember when.
I think I think what I'm moreexcited, the conversations that
really excite me is to thinkabout the where we're going with
this.
So Bank and Vogue is a companythat re-homes and finds
(09:48):
innovative and relevantsolutions to the amount of
apparel that the thriftoperators don't.
Beyond Retro was set up as thisidea that we could own a piece
of the landscape of fashiongoing forward through used, part
of the landscape of retail goingforward.
But what we've also proven inthe last few years is what if
(10:12):
used could be an input to newmanufacturing?
What if when you make a ChuckTaylor shoe, instead of using
new material, what if we couldmake a pair of chucks using an
existing material?
So our collab over the last fouryears with five years with
Converse, making the renew chuckis a testament to the fact that
(10:35):
we can change the way in whichand we've and since then we've
now pushed that boundary andwe've had a we have an ongoing
collaboration with Coach.
So with Coach, we have made thecomponents for the Soho bag from
denim.
So going back to the 450 millionpairs of genes that Americans
(10:56):
buy every year, if the geneisn't relevant to be reused, can
we use elements of that gene tomake components for a luxury
handbag?
And so our collab with Coach,and if you Google Soho, J Lo
Denim bag, you'll see J Loholding up that Soho bag that
which was our collab with them.
(11:17):
The high five moment there thatis really exciting is that in
I'm gonna be a little geekyhere, so brace yourself.
In the fashion world, they dothis thing called a life cycle
assessment, and and it'sreferred to as an LCA.
And an LCA is a measure, areally scientific measure of how
much carbon did it take to makesomething, how much water did it
(11:40):
take, how much electricity didit take.
And when you do thosemeasurements, you can compare it
to first life cycle material.
And what's amazing is thatTapestry, the parent company of
Coach, did an LCA on thecomponents that we supplied for
that coach handbag.
And so this coach handbag madefrom denim from Bank and Vogue,
(12:03):
it scored that it was an up toan 80% savings in carbon.
Wow, it was up to a 98% savingsin water.
And I think, you know, in termsof like what gets us excited is
can we change the narrativeabout how things are made?
Can we make stuff from thingsthat we already have?
(12:24):
And can we do that at a scaledway?
And what's exciting for us isthat to do a to do the work with
coach, it's can you do it in theluxury space?
Right.
Because the standard in whichthey operate is like shut the
front door.
And I feel like like you're notgonna show up in your flip-flops
and your cutoff shorts toWimbledon.
SPEAKER_02 (12:46):
I sure hope not.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
You've gotta you've gotta show up to a standard, and
I think what's really excitingabout this space is that there
is the opportunity, and and ifyou think about it, we uh we as
a society need to figure out howto use the existing resources we
have because you can only dig somany holes in the ground, you're
gonna run out of fields to growfood to feed us all if we're
(13:11):
growing cotton.
And you think about even that inof itself, you know, who's the
third or fourth largest growerof cotton in the world?
You caught me on this one.
It's the US.
Well, naturally, okay.
And you think if we can useexisting materials and swap out
those cotton fields for fieldsto so that we can have food, you
(13:33):
think ultimately as thesocieties grow and we have more
and we have more need for morefood, you know, there will be an
there will be a need to be ableto balance, it's not a hundred
percent of one thing, it's notgoing to replace everything, but
could it be a supplement to howthings are made?
So for us, and that's the thirdpillar of our business.
(13:54):
So we have our wholesalebusiness, we have our retail
business, we have ourremanufacturing business.
And I'm giddy about the collabsthat we are doing with Coach,
with Converse, with Wrangler.
So under the renew, sorry, thereware collection with Wrangler,
that's a whole collection ofdenim jackets and pants, shirt,
(14:15):
all made from existing material.
And so those collabs withWrangler, with Coach, with
Converse are just a testament tothat we can redefine the way
things are made.
And it and what's even better isthat the product that we're
making it from, going back tothe boxes at auction houses, it
has authenticity.
(14:36):
And that's something that youcan't fake authenticity.
No, you can't.
You know, it's like, you know,no matter what, you you know,
you go into that, you know, yougo into that high street store
and they've tried to fake wearon a pair of jeans, you're like,
really?
SPEAKER_02 (14:52):
How do you uh how do you expand these partnerships?
You talked a little bit aboutWrangler.
I'm glad you mentioned Converseand Coach.
How do you expand thesecollaborations in these
partnerships, but while stillstaying true in in and staying
authentic and staying true toyour your vision and hand
clothing?
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Yeah, it's I think like certainly when you're when
you're making material andproducts from onesies and to do
it at scale, absolutely can bechallenging and frustrating.
And you're like, man, if I onlyhad a hundred yards of the same
color and in a roll.
(15:32):
And yeah, I don't know.
I I feel like the answer, thequestion that you've asked is
exactly what the Greeks actasked of us, to thy own self be
true, you know?
Yeah, I'm like, I don't have anytattoos, but if I should get
one, it'll be that'll feel likeit'll be to thy own self be
true.
(15:52):
It's like I can't, you know, itjust isn't in me to to switch
gears.
SPEAKER_02 (15:58):
And so we and and certainly there's certainly a
temptation to change that, butso what kind of what kind of you
know innovative uh approachesare are you taking to kind of
keeping this thing going andmaking sure that secondhand
clothing.
Talk to me a little bit aboutyour scaling process and and and
(16:19):
what you're doing to kind ofchallenge conventional supply
chains.
SPEAKER_00 (16:24):
Well, I you know, I think I should go to the the
next pillar of our business,which is okay, we want to resell
a product, we want to put it inappropriate places, we want it
to own a piece of the landscapefashion, but we also and then we
and the remanufacturing and theelement of it.
The last piece is if we can'tresell something, we can't
(16:47):
repair it, we can'tremanufacture it, what do we do
with it?
And so this year alone, we havesupplied to uh mechanical
recyclers.
So these are guys that usemachines to pull garments apart,
and this year alone, we'vesupplied 26 million pounds of uh
material for recycling that hasbeen turned back into new fiber.
(17:10):
And you think about 26 millionpounds, that's a lot of weight,
you know.
A lot of weight.
I love I love one of my one ofone of my one of the one of the
Beyond Retro guys put up a postonce and said, if you took all
the clothes and put them in abig pile, well, we'd be really
mad because it'd be a big mess.
I was like, you know, forgetabout how many swimming pools
(17:33):
that is or how many elephantsthat is.
It's like at the end of the day,it's I really like this symbol.
You know, you ever see you eversee the ever see the fact that a
little child before they canspeak will be able to sign?
Exactly and then and they can dothis.
It's like my favorite thing inthe world.
It's more.
How do we how do we do more?
(17:54):
And it's like this more elementis like, yeah, this is part of
my DNA, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (17:59):
Yeah, and that kind of leads to my next question.
You kind of answered it there,just some of the attacking the
infrastructure investments thatcould kind of help move more
textile waste up the quoteevolutionary ladder from you
know anything from downcyclingto recycling and even upcycling.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
No, I I take offense to the word waste.
Like I think that in a in thenatural environment, there is no
such thing as waste.
Sure.
Right?
Like leaves in Canada right now,we're headed into the season
where leaves are beginning tofall off the trees, and they're
gonna go to the ground andthey're gonna feed the worms,
they're gonna fill the microbes.
The microbes are gonna migratesoil, they're gonna feed the
(18:39):
trees again.
You know, we need to reframe andreset our view of things in
front of us.
And honestly, it's like that'sthat's a a really exciting
moment for me is if we can if wecan go into the matrix.
Imagine we go into the matrixtogether and we stop looking at
the things on your desk or themicrophone in front of you or
(19:00):
the ear earbuds on your yourhead, and we can start looking
at things as inputs to otherthings.
If we can reframe this whole ourview on the world, and you know,
some people, some really smartpeople have said, why don't we
get away from this thing calledthe linear economy?
(19:21):
Why don't we get away from thisconcept of a linear economy and
why don't we start gener lookingat the world through a circular
economy?
And really that, like in laymanterms, that conversation is is
really how do we reframe andtake the W word out of our
language?
We don't, you know, if we can ifwe can remove the W word, that
(19:43):
word is the definition offailure in my mind.
SPEAKER_02 (19:46):
So are you your biggest advice maybe is just
trying to find a purpose foreverything instead of saying the
W or waste?
SPEAKER_00 (19:56):
You know, I'm a Canadian, so I'm not gonna give
you guys any advice, first ofall.
I'm not giving anybody anyadvice, but I but I'm just
saying from my own perspective,what I'm really excited about is
is seeing value where everybodydoesn't.
Sure.
And and taking joy in in thepatina that things have, the
(20:18):
life that they've lived.
And and you think about it, evensome of the the craziest things,
right?
Like, how many times have youheard about the first Super
Mario game that was everinvented and it's still in its
original plastic cellophanewrap, and somebody wants to pay
$200,000 for it.
You know, it's like when thatwhen all those Super Mario games
(20:41):
came out, everyone's like, thisis a Super Mario, it's worth
it's worth I don't know,$49.99,whatever everybody paid for it.
But now, because it was originalin the box condition, in mint
condition, you got somebody atthe pawn shop in Vegas, and
we're all watching TV going,this thing has value now.
Yeah, and everybody asks Rick,and people hold their breath,
(21:03):
and they go the expert comes inwith his funny hat and says, Oh
my god, this is worth this much.
But it's a reality, crazy.
And that moment is it was quiteamazing to me.
SPEAKER_02 (21:14):
So taking to that point and kind of shifting
towards the production side ofthings, you know, in your
biggest remanufacturingfacilities, how do you ensure
consistent quality when you'reprocessing this vast amount of
vast volumes of just verytextiles?
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
Or what if it's consistently inconsistent?
There you go.
So there is there certainly isan art, right?
One thing that has to happen isvolume.
So in the first shoe we did withConverse, we came up with a
color palette that denim couldbe made out of.
So denim comes in a myriad ofranges from dark to light, and
(21:56):
then we started triaging themand creating our own.
Did you know the uh the pantoncolor scheme?
Yeah, of course.
So if everybody says, oh, pantonyellow 104, you know exactly
what yellow there is.
So one of one of the things thatwe've done at Bank of Oak is
we've created our own colorscheme based on how we can sort
(22:20):
and what we get.
So it's part of what comes out.
And so if if you look at thatcoach handbag with JLo, you'll
see that there are three colortones in that bag.
So we can make things in abucket of ranges, and it won't
be exactly the color, butthere'll be a range that'll be a
light, medium, and dark, let'ssay.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (22:43):
So the one path we can do is we can go on a path
where we can make buckets ofthings that are pretty close.
But then there's another pathwhere we made a a shoe with
Converse, which was a Hawaiianprint shoe, but every shoe was
different.
That's part of what's reallybroken right now about moderity,
(23:06):
is that we call it theMcDonald's French fry problem.
Like if you're in, if you go toParis and order French fries, or
you go to Pittsburgh and orderfrench fries, you're gonna get
the same French fry fromMcDonald's.
Right there's an expectationwhen you walk in, you know what
that fry is.
But that's that's also thatlevel set that that consumer,
(23:29):
but if you can change theconsumer's mindset that actually
difference is really good, thenmaybe there's something there.
But it is it is one of thechallenges of the industrial
revolution is that we expectevery big lighter to look
exactly the same because youknow what a big lighter is,
right?
Or you know exactly what yourMcDonald's French prize will
(23:51):
look like.
SPEAKER_02 (23:52):
It kind of all circles back to your point about
being authentic and keeping thatauthenticity, being consistently
inconsistent.
I feel like that is one of theseways from the outside looking in
to beyond retro to bank andvogue, just kind of a way that
that keeps you authentic isbeing consistently inconsistent.
SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
And it's like uh, and that celebration of that.
The thing I really love aboutpeople is they're all different.
And somehow we need to recenterour north star.
That the joy of difference isbeautiful.
We seem to be unfortunatelyheaded to a world where the
(24:33):
celebration of difference isn'tcelebrated, which is kind of
sad.
SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
So moving forward, look, five years down the line,
where does where do you see thatnorth star for you and your
company and your team movingtowards and shifting to?
SPEAKER_00 (24:49):
I think the north star is still the North Star, is
that we celebrate authenticity,we celebrate innovative uses for
the things that we have, becausewe have a lot of things.
And and we celebrate that thatthat it's not the only answer.
Like there are new things, andthere should be new things, you
(25:09):
know, like it just it is what itis, right?
You know, I'm you know, I'mamazed at some of the the new
things that are out there andthe new creations.
Those those need to come.
We need to keep creating a spacefor things that are already
existing and preserving them.
SPEAKER_02 (25:26):
Right now, for anybody listening, how how can
they stay connected with you andand learn more about the bank
and vogue journey, the moreabout the beyond retro journey,
your stores, the projects, allof the above.
How can people learn and listenfrom you guys?
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
Yeah, and also I think the other thing is how do
I actually learn and listen?
Yeah.
And so it's not, yeah, it's notum, I think that so look, you
know, I'm a I'm a big LinkedInfan.
There's a new thing that'spretty cool.
You can follow us on BeyondRetro on Instagram, which is
Beyond Retro on Instagram.
And you know, one of the amazingtools that could be both good
(26:08):
and bad is finding communitiesthat you associate with.
And I feel like those platformsare a great display of our
passions and our teams and thework that we're sort of
celebrating.
And also, I feel as if we aretrying, our job is actually to
find in everywhere members ofour tribe.
(26:31):
You know, there was somebodyreally courageous at Converse
who said, Hey, what these guysare doing, we understand
authenticity.
Stuart Babers is the creativedirector at coach.
And I remember meeting him forthe first time, and I said, you
know, I'm from Beyond Retro, andwe've a student, and he's like,
I know who you are, shop at yourstore all the time.
It's like being part of thetribe that understands and loves
(26:55):
and respects our authenticityand our past and our the
materials that are around us, Ithink is like, you know, it's it
because it because it isn't aone-way journey.
We're not just saying, hey,here's what we're doing.
We are Hobbes Leviathan.
We're we're part of a communityof people that make up our
(27:16):
thing.
SPEAKER_02 (27:17):
And again, to to that point, as we wrap things
up, where where are you gettingthe the a majority of your
secondhand closings?
Is there a way for people tomake direct donations, or is
that something that you youdon't do?
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
No, not at all.
And I encourage the thing that'samazing across Canada and the
United States is there areamazing charities, there are
amazing private collectors thatare collecting clothes, and we
buy from them.
So, you know, whether it be yourSalvation Army or your Goodwill
or you know, whatever your localcharity is or your private
collector that's collecting theclothes, and we work with those
(27:54):
because at the end of the day,you know, uh tonight it's
Friday, and at three o'clock inthe morning, somebody's gonna be
handing out sandwiches andcoffee to the homeless people.
You know, somebody is gonna onMonday morning, somebody's gonna
open up a job training center ata goodwill.
You know, on Tuesday inColorado, somebody's gonna have
(28:16):
a thrift store that helps andemploys children who have Down
syndrome.
There is so much good in so manycommunities across the US that
is being done from used clothes.
And and I I wouldn't want tointersect or get in the middle
of that.
I think that what you want to dois, and and a lot of it is even
community level, you know,whether it be a homeless shelter
(28:39):
or whether it be a you know awoman's shelter, is that used
clothes can be a force for good.
And we're after that stage,after they've done, they've
extracted the good from it.
And I I'm personally humbled bypeople who live that mission.
I would I'm never giving advice,I would encourage anybody to to
(29:00):
you know to find those people inyour community and celebrate
them.
SPEAKER_02 (29:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
I really enjoyed hearing aboutyour journey.
I look forward to to followingthis journey and and appreciate
everything that you have hashave have said because you know
it's it's if what if you takeone thing out of this interview,
it's definitely that you'repassionate about what you do,
and it kind of no pun intended,goes beyond you know second
(29:26):
secondhand clothing.
So I do appreciate your time,Stephen.
Appreciate the time.
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
Thank you all for listening.
That's all the time we have.
We will see you next time.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of the Four Worlds
Podcast.
Until next time, you can catchup on the latest innovations
shaping our world attomorrow'sworldtoday.com.
(29:47):
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subscribe to our YouTubechannel.
Welcome to the Four Worlds Podcast from Tomorrow's
World Today.
We're diving into the latest intech, science, and
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This is your ticket to thestories shaping tomorrow.
(00:24):
Welcome to another episode ofthe Four Worlds Podcasts.
Co-founder of Bank and Vogue,Stephen Bethel, joins us today
to discuss the Beyond Retrobrand's role in circular fashion
and second-hand clothing.
Steven, welcome to the show.
We're looking forward to thisone.
Yeah, it's all right.
Thank you very much for havingme.
Absolutely.
We're excited.
And I just wanted to start itoff, kind of give you the
(00:46):
platform to take us back intothe day to 1992, the launch of
Bank in Vogue, and then shortlyafter, I mean not so shortly, a
decade later, introducing BeyondRetro.
Just take me through your storyand how that timeline kind of
went.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
Yeah.
So we started in we're aCanadian company uh based out of
Ottawa Capital, Ottawa, which isthe capital of Canada.
It's kind of the place thatfashion forgot, but let's not
let's not let's not bring thatup.
But really, there's thisinteresting intersection, and
we've always been in the spaceof the of the secondhand
(01:23):
clothing space, and uh just inthe recycling space, rather.
And this idea of finding valuewhere others don't find value,
it really is something that'sresonated for 25 years.
It's this innovative andrelevant solutions to the crisis
of stuff.
(01:43):
And you you know, you look atyour closet, you look in that,
you know, everybody has thatdrawer in their kitchen that is
like the catch all drawer, themiscellaneous drawer.
I have two of them.
And that's a drawer that I'mlike, I celebrate and love.
It's the stuff in it's the stuffdrawer.
And you're like, oh, hey,there's that tool to remove the
(02:05):
stub off a strawberry that noone, you know, you bought and
then you forgot you had.
But it's this, it's this idea ofdiscovery and finding that has
always been like an element ofthe business.
So the business, uh, our bankand vogue, what we do is we work
with charities and privatecollectors to find homes for
(02:27):
products that couldn't sell in adomestic store or that were
collected across the UnitedStates and Canada in charity
bins.
So when you when you do yourspring clean out of all your
clothes or your household goods,your shoes, your purses and
belts, where we live in theecosystem is finding relevant
homes for that product.
(02:48):
So like where where does thatwhere does that go?
When you donate something to acharity and they pulled out what
they can to sell it, whathappens to the balance of that
product?
And that's what Bank and Vogueis focused on.
It's just a jambalaya of appareland footwear and handbags.
It's it's in that complete stuffrealm.
But I love stuff.
(03:09):
Yeah, I love things that aren'tthe same.
You know, you go into a highstreet store or you know, name
your HM or your Zara, and you'vegot a whole rail of exactly the
same thing.
The joy about our world is wedeal with everything that's
unique.
And that's that's a that's aplace that I absolutely love.
SPEAKER_02 (03:25):
So would you consider your your love of stuff
and just the the culture thatyou grew up in as part of the
inspiration that that helped getBank and Vogue off the ground
and of course beyond retro?
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
Yeah, and it's and it's it's also so I I grew up in
a in a family.
Every weekend we would go toantique sales or or farm
auctions.
And you know, and they used tohave these farm auctions where
you'd, you know, there'd be aguy standing on a hay wagon and
they'd pull up boxes out of thisguy's farmhouse, and you'd buy
random boxes of whatever, andthen the the joy of discovery
(04:02):
has never been lost.
And so now those random boxeshave moved from the one box
coming out of the at the auctionto you know, we're moving
containers of material, so liketractor shadow loads, and on a
on a weekly basis, it's Bank ofVogue is now moving four million
garments a week of secondhandclothes.
(04:24):
So there's like literally thescale of stuff that we have in
North America is like it's justto me fascinating.
Do you know do you know thatAmericans buy 450 million pairs
of jeans a year?
I don't doubt it at all.
450 million pairs of jeans.
SPEAKER_02 (04:40):
Like you think about that, it's like it's kind of one
of those numbers that you can'teven wrap your head around.
450 million pairs.
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
And if the average garment lives in an American
closet for two and a half years,wow.
It's not only the volume ofproduct, but it's the velocity
of product.
And what's really exciting is tofind for Bank and Fogue, our job
is to say, okay, you know, ifthe average life expectancy is
two and a half years, how do wefind another closet where that
(05:11):
could live in?
And in terms of like the bestthing that we can do to lower
our impact on the things that weconsume, is can we consume
something that's already beenmade?
Can we just buy from a thriftstore instead of going and
buying at a high street store oron your, you know, your main
flag tree store?
(05:32):
Because we've all seen thestatistics about how much water
it takes, how much land ittakes, how much chemicals it
takes, how much fossil fuels ittakes.
But what if we could change thenarrative that, you know, it's
not only a better thing, it'sactually what's interesting is
that it's it actually hasauthenticity or character.
(05:53):
You know, you you think aboutyou know, buying that pair of
jeans that somebody else hasworn in for you.
The absurdity of of modernity iswe're buying jeans where people
are sanding them and puttingholes in them to make them look
old.
SPEAKER_02 (06:07):
Really?
The the the vintage trend hashas gone to just not ridiculous
measures, but measures that havejust exceeded any sort of
expectation I had when vintagestarted becoming uh a big thing.
So is this something that notthat bank and vogue and and your
(06:28):
team kind of takes advantage of,but is this something that just
kind of makes you stop andwonder what's like, wow, this
this could be turned intosomething great where we can
take some of this vintageclothes and actually do good
with it?
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
I think that it it isn't the the better way to
answer that is that we have a wehave a team of people that have
loved the so Beyond Retro, whichis our retail arm, is it's an
accumulation of amazing peoplethat are in love with that with
authenticity.
And it isn't necessarily thatwe're that we set out to go, oh,
(07:04):
there's a trend, let's chasethat vintage trend.
We were just standing in the waywhen you know the rest of the
there was a a greater acceptanceof what we were doing made had
authenti authenticity that spoketo a bigger audience, right?
And so rather than us sayingthat that we were chasing a
(07:25):
trend, I think the trend came toour door, you know.
So in Beyond Retro, our firstshop was in East London in
Shoreditch in a at in an olddairy barn in East London.
And you know, 20 years ago whenwe opened our first store, it
would have been really hard forus to get a high like a main
(07:45):
footfall location, just thelandlords themselves wouldn't
have said yes.
But Beyond Retro now has a shop,for example, on the Queen's Road
in Stockholm, uh Drotting.
We have a shop on Argyle Street,which is right off Oxford in the
UK.
We have a shop in the thisdevelopment called the Cold
(08:07):
Drops in in King's Cross inLondon.
And one of the best pieces ofreal estate in Europe.
Google just opened its Europeanheadquarters there.
Samsung is above us, like it's areally amazing space.
But the reality is with thatspace, is that 20 years ago
those landlords wouldn't havetaken us on.
So it's the interesting thing iswe were we had built a business
(08:28):
because we loved what we weredoing.
But all of a sudden, thelandlords and the and all of the
people that need to let you intothat world said, hey, you know,
why don't you put a shop?
And and our location on onArgyll Street is owned by the
Crown.
Oh, no kidding.
Yeah, and and what's reallyamazing about that is that the
Crown specifically sought us outand said, Hey, what if the
(08:51):
landscape of the offering thatwe have in our area includes
secondhand?
To go to your question, a littlebit of a meandering answer is
the irony is that it's not justabout the trend coming to our
door, but it's also about acommunity of people that get
that secondhand has a legitimateplace in the landscape of
(09:13):
fashion.
SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
So how does that, you know, how does that make you
feel just looking back, startingthis up in 1992 and see and
seeing where it is now?
How does that kind of make youfeel when you sit back and look
look at it?
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
I like the line from The Sopranos, which is the
lowest form of conversationstarts with remember when.
I think I think what I'm moreexcited, the conversations that
really excite me is to thinkabout the where we're going with
this.
So Bank and Vogue is a companythat re-homes and finds
(09:48):
innovative and relevantsolutions to the amount of
apparel that the thriftoperators don't.
Beyond Retro was set up as thisidea that we could own a piece
of the landscape of fashiongoing forward through used, part
of the landscape of retail goingforward.
But what we've also proven inthe last few years is what if
(10:12):
used could be an input to newmanufacturing?
What if when you make a ChuckTaylor shoe, instead of using
new material, what if we couldmake a pair of chucks using an
existing material?
So our collab over the last fouryears with five years with
Converse, making the renew chuckis a testament to the fact that
(10:35):
we can change the way in whichand we've and since then we've
now pushed that boundary andwe've had a we have an ongoing
collaboration with Coach.
So with Coach, we have made thecomponents for the Soho bag from
denim.
So going back to the 450 millionpairs of genes that Americans
(10:56):
buy every year, if the geneisn't relevant to be reused, can
we use elements of that gene tomake components for a luxury
handbag?
And so our collab with Coach,and if you Google Soho, J Lo
Denim bag, you'll see J Loholding up that Soho bag that
which was our collab with them.
(11:17):
The high five moment there thatis really exciting is that in
I'm gonna be a little geekyhere, so brace yourself.
In the fashion world, they dothis thing called a life cycle
assessment, and and it'sreferred to as an LCA.
And an LCA is a measure, areally scientific measure of how
much carbon did it take to makesomething, how much water did it
(11:40):
take, how much electricity didit take.
And when you do thosemeasurements, you can compare it
to first life cycle material.
And what's amazing is thatTapestry, the parent company of
Coach, did an LCA on thecomponents that we supplied for
that coach handbag.
And so this coach handbag madefrom denim from Bank and Vogue,
(12:03):
it scored that it was an up toan 80% savings in carbon.
Wow, it was up to a 98% savingsin water.
And I think, you know, in termsof like what gets us excited is
can we change the narrativeabout how things are made?
Can we make stuff from thingsthat we already have?
(12:24):
And can we do that at a scaledway?
And what's exciting for us isthat to do a to do the work with
coach, it's can you do it in theluxury space?
Right.
Because the standard in whichthey operate is like shut the
front door.
And I feel like like you're notgonna show up in your flip-flops
and your cutoff shorts toWimbledon.
SPEAKER_02 (12:46):
I sure hope not.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
You've gotta you've gotta show up to a standard, and
I think what's really excitingabout this space is that there
is the opportunity, and and ifyou think about it, we uh we as
a society need to figure out howto use the existing resources we
have because you can only dig somany holes in the ground, you're
gonna run out of fields to growfood to feed us all if we're
(13:11):
growing cotton.
And you think about even that inof itself, you know, who's the
third or fourth largest growerof cotton in the world?
You caught me on this one.
It's the US.
Well, naturally, okay.
And you think if we can useexisting materials and swap out
those cotton fields for fieldsto so that we can have food, you
(13:33):
think ultimately as thesocieties grow and we have more
and we have more need for morefood, you know, there will be an
there will be a need to be ableto balance, it's not a hundred
percent of one thing, it's notgoing to replace everything, but
could it be a supplement to howthings are made?
So for us, and that's the thirdpillar of our business.
(13:54):
So we have our wholesalebusiness, we have our retail
business, we have ourremanufacturing business.
And I'm giddy about the collabsthat we are doing with Coach,
with Converse, with Wrangler.
So under the renew, sorry, thereware collection with Wrangler,
that's a whole collection ofdenim jackets and pants, shirt,
(14:15):
all made from existing material.
And so those collabs withWrangler, with Coach, with
Converse are just a testament tothat we can redefine the way
things are made.
And it and what's even better isthat the product that we're
making it from, going back tothe boxes at auction houses, it
has authenticity.
(14:36):
And that's something that youcan't fake authenticity.
No, you can't.
You know, it's like, you know,no matter what, you you know,
you go into that, you know, yougo into that high street store
and they've tried to fake wearon a pair of jeans, you're like,
really?
SPEAKER_02 (14:52):
How do you uh how do you expand these partnerships?
You talked a little bit aboutWrangler.
I'm glad you mentioned Converseand Coach.
How do you expand thesecollaborations in these
partnerships, but while stillstaying true in in and staying
authentic and staying true toyour your vision and hand
clothing?
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Yeah, it's I think like certainly when you're when
you're making material andproducts from onesies and to do
it at scale, absolutely can bechallenging and frustrating.
And you're like, man, if I onlyhad a hundred yards of the same
color and in a roll.
(15:32):
And yeah, I don't know.
I I feel like the answer, thequestion that you've asked is
exactly what the Greeks actasked of us, to thy own self be
true, you know?
Yeah, I'm like, I don't have anytattoos, but if I should get
one, it'll be that'll feel likeit'll be to thy own self be
true.
(15:52):
It's like I can't, you know, itjust isn't in me to to switch
gears.
SPEAKER_02 (15:58):
And so we and and certainly there's certainly a
temptation to change that, butso what kind of what kind of you
know innovative uh approachesare are you taking to kind of
keeping this thing going andmaking sure that secondhand
clothing.
Talk to me a little bit aboutyour scaling process and and and
(16:19):
what you're doing to kind ofchallenge conventional supply
chains.
SPEAKER_00 (16:24):
Well, I you know, I think I should go to the the
next pillar of our business,which is okay, we want to resell
a product, we want to put it inappropriate places, we want it
to own a piece of the landscapefashion, but we also and then we
and the remanufacturing and theelement of it.
The last piece is if we can'tresell something, we can't
(16:47):
repair it, we can'tremanufacture it, what do we do
with it?
And so this year alone, we havesupplied to uh mechanical
recyclers.
So these are guys that usemachines to pull garments apart,
and this year alone, we'vesupplied 26 million pounds of uh
material for recycling that hasbeen turned back into new fiber.
(17:10):
And you think about 26 millionpounds, that's a lot of weight,
you know.
A lot of weight.
I love I love one of my one ofone of my one of the one of the
Beyond Retro guys put up a postonce and said, if you took all
the clothes and put them in abig pile, well, we'd be really
mad because it'd be a big mess.
I was like, you know, forgetabout how many swimming pools
(17:33):
that is or how many elephantsthat is.
It's like at the end of the day,it's I really like this symbol.
You know, you ever see you eversee the ever see the fact that a
little child before they canspeak will be able to sign?
Exactly and then and they can dothis.
It's like my favorite thing inthe world.
It's more.
How do we how do we do more?
(17:54):
And it's like this more elementis like, yeah, this is part of
my DNA, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (17:59):
Yeah, and that kind of leads to my next question.
You kind of answered it there,just some of the attacking the
infrastructure investments thatcould kind of help move more
textile waste up the quoteevolutionary ladder from you
know anything from downcyclingto recycling and even upcycling.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
No, I I take offense to the word waste.
Like I think that in a in thenatural environment, there is no
such thing as waste.
Sure.
Right?
Like leaves in Canada right now,we're headed into the season
where leaves are beginning tofall off the trees, and they're
gonna go to the ground andthey're gonna feed the worms,
they're gonna fill the microbes.
The microbes are gonna migratesoil, they're gonna feed the
(18:39):
trees again.
You know, we need to reframe andreset our view of things in
front of us.
And honestly, it's like that'sthat's a a really exciting
moment for me is if we can if wecan go into the matrix.
Imagine we go into the matrixtogether and we stop looking at
the things on your desk or themicrophone in front of you or
(19:00):
the ear earbuds on your yourhead, and we can start looking
at things as inputs to otherthings.
If we can reframe this whole ourview on the world, and you know,
some people, some really smartpeople have said, why don't we
get away from this thing calledthe linear economy?
(19:21):
Why don't we get away from thisconcept of a linear economy and
why don't we start gener lookingat the world through a circular
economy?
And really that, like in laymanterms, that conversation is is
really how do we reframe andtake the W word out of our
language?
We don't, you know, if we can ifwe can remove the W word, that
(19:43):
word is the definition offailure in my mind.
SPEAKER_02 (19:46):
So are you your biggest advice maybe is just
trying to find a purpose foreverything instead of saying the
W or waste?
SPEAKER_00 (19:56):
You know, I'm a Canadian, so I'm not gonna give
you guys any advice, first ofall.
I'm not giving anybody anyadvice, but I but I'm just
saying from my own perspective,what I'm really excited about is
is seeing value where everybodydoesn't.
Sure.
And and taking joy in in thepatina that things have, the
(20:18):
life that they've lived.
And and you think about it, evensome of the the craziest things,
right?
Like, how many times have youheard about the first Super
Mario game that was everinvented and it's still in its
original plastic cellophanewrap, and somebody wants to pay
$200,000 for it.
You know, it's like when thatwhen all those Super Mario games
(20:41):
came out, everyone's like, thisis a Super Mario, it's worth
it's worth I don't know,$49.99,whatever everybody paid for it.
But now, because it was originalin the box condition, in mint
condition, you got somebody atthe pawn shop in Vegas, and
we're all watching TV going,this thing has value now.
Yeah, and everybody asks Rick,and people hold their breath,
(21:03):
and they go the expert comes inwith his funny hat and says, Oh
my god, this is worth this much.
But it's a reality, crazy.
And that moment is it was quiteamazing to me.
SPEAKER_02 (21:14):
So taking to that point and kind of shifting
towards the production side ofthings, you know, in your
biggest remanufacturingfacilities, how do you ensure
consistent quality when you'reprocessing this vast amount of
vast volumes of just verytextiles?
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
Or what if it's consistently inconsistent?
There you go.
So there is there certainly isan art, right?
One thing that has to happen isvolume.
So in the first shoe we did withConverse, we came up with a
color palette that denim couldbe made out of.
So denim comes in a myriad ofranges from dark to light, and
(21:56):
then we started triaging themand creating our own.
Did you know the uh the pantoncolor scheme?
Yeah, of course.
So if everybody says, oh, pantonyellow 104, you know exactly
what yellow there is.
So one of one of the things thatwe've done at Bank of Oak is
we've created our own colorscheme based on how we can sort
(22:20):
and what we get.
So it's part of what comes out.
And so if if you look at thatcoach handbag with JLo, you'll
see that there are three colortones in that bag.
So we can make things in abucket of ranges, and it won't
be exactly the color, butthere'll be a range that'll be a
light, medium, and dark, let'ssay.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (22:43):
So the one path we can do is we can go on a path
where we can make buckets ofthings that are pretty close.
But then there's another pathwhere we made a a shoe with
Converse, which was a Hawaiianprint shoe, but every shoe was
different.
That's part of what's reallybroken right now about moderity,
(23:06):
is that we call it theMcDonald's French fry problem.
Like if you're in, if you go toParis and order French fries, or
you go to Pittsburgh and orderfrench fries, you're gonna get
the same French fry fromMcDonald's.
Right there's an expectationwhen you walk in, you know what
that fry is.
But that's that's also thatlevel set that that consumer,
(23:29):
but if you can change theconsumer's mindset that actually
difference is really good, thenmaybe there's something there.
But it is it is one of thechallenges of the industrial
revolution is that we expectevery big lighter to look
exactly the same because youknow what a big lighter is,
right?
Or you know exactly what yourMcDonald's French prize will
(23:51):
look like.
SPEAKER_02 (23:52):
It kind of all circles back to your point about
being authentic and keeping thatauthenticity, being consistently
inconsistent.
I feel like that is one of theseways from the outside looking in
to beyond retro to bank andvogue, just kind of a way that
that keeps you authentic isbeing consistently inconsistent.
SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
And it's like uh, and that celebration of that.
The thing I really love aboutpeople is they're all different.
And somehow we need to recenterour north star.
That the joy of difference isbeautiful.
We seem to be unfortunatelyheaded to a world where the
(24:33):
celebration of difference isn'tcelebrated, which is kind of
sad.
SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
So moving forward, look, five years down the line,
where does where do you see thatnorth star for you and your
company and your team movingtowards and shifting to?
SPEAKER_00 (24:49):
I think the north star is still the North Star, is
that we celebrate authenticity,we celebrate innovative uses for
the things that we have, becausewe have a lot of things.
And and we celebrate that thatthat it's not the only answer.
Like there are new things, andthere should be new things, you
(25:09):
know, like it just it is what itis, right?
You know, I'm you know, I'mamazed at some of the the new
things that are out there andthe new creations.
Those those need to come.
We need to keep creating a spacefor things that are already
existing and preserving them.
SPEAKER_02 (25:26):
Right now, for anybody listening, how how can
they stay connected with you andand learn more about the bank
and vogue journey, the moreabout the beyond retro journey,
your stores, the projects, allof the above.
How can people learn and listenfrom you guys?
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
Yeah, and also I think the other thing is how do
I actually learn and listen?
Yeah.
And so it's not, yeah, it's notum, I think that so look, you
know, I'm a I'm a big LinkedInfan.
There's a new thing that'spretty cool.
You can follow us on BeyondRetro on Instagram, which is
Beyond Retro on Instagram.
And you know, one of the amazingtools that could be both good
(26:08):
and bad is finding communitiesthat you associate with.
And I feel like those platformsare a great display of our
passions and our teams and thework that we're sort of
celebrating.
And also, I feel as if we aretrying, our job is actually to
find in everywhere members ofour tribe.
(26:31):
You know, there was somebodyreally courageous at Converse
who said, Hey, what these guysare doing, we understand
authenticity.
Stuart Babers is the creativedirector at coach.
And I remember meeting him forthe first time, and I said, you
know, I'm from Beyond Retro, andwe've a student, and he's like,
I know who you are, shop at yourstore all the time.
It's like being part of thetribe that understands and loves
(26:55):
and respects our authenticityand our past and our the
materials that are around us, Ithink is like, you know, it's it
because it because it isn't aone-way journey.
We're not just saying, hey,here's what we're doing.
We are Hobbes Leviathan.
We're we're part of a communityof people that make up our
(27:16):
thing.
SPEAKER_02 (27:17):
And again, to to that point, as we wrap things
up, where where are you gettingthe the a majority of your
secondhand closings?
Is there a way for people tomake direct donations, or is
that something that you youdon't do?
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
No, not at all.
And I encourage the thing that'samazing across Canada and the
United States is there areamazing charities, there are
amazing private collectors thatare collecting clothes, and we
buy from them.
So, you know, whether it be yourSalvation Army or your Goodwill
or you know, whatever your localcharity is or your private
collector that's collecting theclothes, and we work with those
(27:54):
because at the end of the day,you know, uh tonight it's
Friday, and at three o'clock inthe morning, somebody's gonna be
handing out sandwiches andcoffee to the homeless people.
You know, somebody is gonna onMonday morning, somebody's gonna
open up a job training center ata goodwill.
You know, on Tuesday inColorado, somebody's gonna have
(28:16):
a thrift store that helps andemploys children who have Down
syndrome.
There is so much good in so manycommunities across the US that
is being done from used clothes.
And and I I wouldn't want tointersect or get in the middle
of that.
I think that what you want to dois, and and a lot of it is even
community level, you know,whether it be a homeless shelter
(28:39):
or whether it be a you know awoman's shelter, is that used
clothes can be a force for good.
And we're after that stage,after they've done, they've
extracted the good from it.
And I I'm personally humbled bypeople who live that mission.
I would I'm never giving advice,I would encourage anybody to to
(29:00):
you know to find those people inyour community and celebrate
them.
SPEAKER_02 (29:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
I really enjoyed hearing aboutyour journey.
I look forward to to followingthis journey and and appreciate
everything that you have hashave have said because you know
it's it's if what if you takeone thing out of this interview,
it's definitely that you'repassionate about what you do,
and it kind of no pun intended,goes beyond you know second
(29:26):
secondhand clothing.
So I do appreciate your time,Stephen.
Appreciate the time.
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
Thank you all for listening.
That's all the time we have.
We will see you next time.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of the Four Worlds
Podcast.
Until next time, you can catchup on the latest innovations
shaping our world attomorrow'sworldtoday.com.
(29:47):
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