July 18, 2025 • 28 mins
Learn more about: Hydefy
Meet Rachel Lee, Founding Partner and General Manager of Hydefy, who's challenging conventional leather production methods. Step into a world where fungi and sugarcane waste become luxury handbags that walk the Paris runway with Stella McCartney. 👜
Rachel reveals how an extremophile fungus, discovered in Yellowstone National Park's volcanic hot springs during NASA-funded research, became the foundation for a revolutionary material. This microscopic marvel grows in just 2-3 days and a natural filamentous structure resembling skin, making it the perfect candidate for sustainable leather development. After nearly three years of extensive R&D, this scientific curiosity was transformed into a commercially viable luxury material.
What makes Hydefy particularly compelling is how it carves out a vital "third category" in the materials landscape. Traditional animal leather brings ethical concerns and significant environmental impacts, while most vegan alternatives rely on petroleum-derived PVC or polyurethane with their own environmental drawbacks. Hydefy's fungi-based approach eliminates these compromises, using fermentation and sustainable inputs to create materials that create materials that are durable and stylish without the ecological baggage without the ecological baggage.
The fashion industry is responsible for approximately 10% of global greenhouse gas emissions. But Hydefy demonstrates how innovation can address these challenges while delivering premium materials that meet luxury standards. Capable of creating a wide range of looks, from traditional leather to experimental finishes with optical effects resembling oil-and-water surfaces, these materials stand on their own merits, not just as eco-friendly alternatives. ♻️
Discover more about how Hydefy is transforming our apparel world at hydefy.com – because the future of fashion isn't just being designed, it's being grown. 🍄🟫✨
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steven Ruffing (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Four
Worlds podcast.
Joining us today is Rachel Lee,a founding partner and general
manager with Hydify.
Rachel, thank you so much forjoining us.
Rachel Lee (00:11):
Thank you for having me, Stephen.
Steven Ruffing (00:13):
So Hydify is a responsible materials company
that uses fungi-based materialsto create an alternative to
leather.
Rachel tell us more about thatmaterial and how nature is truly
at its core.
Rachel Lee (00:28):
Absolutely.
You know the material that wehave.
It is primarily fungi andsugarcane inputs driven.
So when we thought about why wegot started on this, you hear
about leather quite a bit, right, we probably have a lot of
items in our households, forexample, and we wanted to think
(00:50):
about how to create like a thirdcategory for consumers.
So in our lives there's animalleather absolutely beautiful
material, but, depending onwhere you're getting it from,
there's some ethicalenvironmental health concerns in
its manufacturing process, noteven talking about the
greenhouse gas emissions.
And you know there's a lot ofvegan leather out there and I
(01:11):
think most consumers aregradually becoming more aware of
it.
But a lot of the vegan leatheris made out of PVC, polymyelon
chloride or PU polyurethane,which comes with its own health
and environmental concerns,particularly PVC.
So at Hydify we were reallypassionate about the idea of how
can we give consumers somethingelse?
(01:32):
So that's what got us startedin thinking about making fungi
and other plant-based materials,starting with leather.
Steven Ruffing (01:40):
And I just want to know how do you even get to
that point?
I'm sure it's a lot of research, a lot of testing, but how do
you get to that point where youthink of the idea let's try
fungi as an alternative?
Rachel Lee (01:54):
Yes, yes, and there's also some other amazing
innovators out there that'sworking on fungi.
There's some mushroom-basedleather that you may have heard
of.
For us we were a pretty uniquesituation and fungi was a
natural starting point for us,because we actually have a
parent company called Nature'sFind and the Finder Group and
the whole company uses this newextremophile from Yellowstone
(02:18):
National Park.
So the fungi that we use isactually what we call an
extremophile, so it survives invery extreme heat and acidity
and it was in some of thegeothermal hot springs
Yellowstone National Park.
And one of the originalfounders, amitra Spines.
He was doing PhD researchsupported by NASA and discovered
(02:38):
this extremophile that wassuper resource efficient.
So when you think about growinganything, whether it's a cow or
protein source, anything we livein a world with, you know,
increasingly fewer resources howdo you, how do you deal in that
world?
How do you grow something withfewer resources?
So when this mixed stream offile was quick to grow it grows
(03:00):
within two to three days.
It's it means lower carbon,water, energy footprint, et
cetera, and it had interestingproperties, such as it has all
the essential amino acids.
So the food side of thebusiness was already starting to
look into creating foodproducts with it.
But if you look underneath themicroscope it has this
filamentous structure that kindof resembles like fibrous
(03:23):
network, like skin, and that'swhat got.
That's what sparked the idea ofthe biomaterial side of the
business, which eventually grewinto what's Hideify.
So we thought you know what, ifwe treat this like a skin
instead of an animal, like cowhide, can we make a material out
of it.
And then over time we wentthrough a lot of R&D iterations
and the material evolved intosomething different, with
(03:45):
different than what where westarted.
But that was the genesis ofthinking about this extremophile
and bringing this new to worldorganism to the market.
Steven Ruffing (03:54):
And you talk about going through the R&D
process, finding out, coming upwith the idea.
How long, approximately, didthat process take?
Because it really it doesn'tsound like an easy process.
Of course, nothing is ever easy, but this one does seem a
little complex.
So how long did that processtake, from idea to starting to
produce something?
Rachel Lee (04:14):
Honestly, longer than I thought it would and
longer than we probably wanted.
And it's a little hard to saydefinitive numbers because I
think in the beginning it wasvery bare bone R&D lab where we
did a lot of experiments andthen a lot of it was to create
proof of concept, to even see isthere there, there, to convince
(04:35):
the company to potentiallyinvest more resources into
growing the business andinvesting in R&D.
And I think there's a lot oflessons I learned from that the
business and investing in R&D,and I think there's a lot of
lessons I learned from that.
I would say a lot of the workgot accelerated when we had some
of our rockstar scientists,especially with people with
experience in commercializationand with PhD backgrounds, join.
(04:56):
So then, once you have themagic of having the right team,
we also made a couple of pivotsand once we did that, I would
say, you know, probably aroundthree years time, wow, getting
it and you're spot on.
Steven Ruffing (05:16):
There's a lot of lessons in transforming a fungi
into a leather-like material.
I mean, really, when you thinkabout it three years I'm sure
where you're at right now, thepoint you're at with Hideify do
you look back and say, wow, thatthree years really did go quick
.
Rachel Lee (05:26):
When all is said and done, yes, because not only the
guy joined the company Nature'sFind in March to May of 2020.
And it feels like a differentpoint in time, but it was peak
pandemic, so there was also adifferent period of the world of
working in a lab looked verydifferent.
There was also a differentperiod of the world of working
in a lab looked very different.
(05:46):
And the time really does flybecause each phase feels
different and exciting and we'rein a privileged position where
we get to interact with a lot ofbrands that come with different
stories, that come withslightly different things
they're looking for, so it feelslike we're working on many
products at once.
So time really flies whenyou're having fun, like to say.
Steven Ruffing (06:05):
Yeah, I mean it's cliche, but it really is
the truth.
You're obviously doingsomething that you like,
something that you're passionateabout, and it's a part of your
personal background or yourenvironmental philosophy.
So take me through how youpersonally have helped influence
the impact of Hidify youpersonally have helped influence
(06:27):
the impact of Hidify.
Rachel Lee (06:28):
I'd like to think that I had a pretty big impact.
So my background actually wasin a bit of more in food.
So I was for many years I waspassionate about improving food
systems and health and humanlives.
So that's what naturally led meto meet with Nature's Find,
because I was so excited aboutinnovation, because we talked
about world with increasinglyscarce resources and it's how we
(06:50):
use those resources and do itin a way to benefit people.
I think that's where innovationcomes in.
So Nature's Find was working onthis really promising project of
bringing a new to world protein, and there was a wave of food
tech right, a lot of energy.
There's a lot of amazinginnovators working in this space
and it felt like there's anopportunity to bring that
(07:13):
similar energy to the materialspace, because fashion not only
employs a lot of the globalworkforce, it uses a lot of the
earth's resources, has a deepimpact on environment.
I think we see a lot of thestatistics around it being
responsible for 10% ofgreenhouse gas emissions go
around, for example.
So when the opportunity came toessentially build this startup
(07:35):
within a startup, to startHydrofy and build it to a
biomaterials business fromnature's Fine.
It felt like a dream role tohelp that and from there, of
course, got other teammates tojoin, built the team and then we
built a product.
Steven Ruffing (07:52):
And when you talk about the climate impact
that, let's say, the fashionindustry, the leather industry,
has on the environment, is thatone of the reasons why you chose
fashion and, in particular,leather?
To start with Hydify?
Rachel Lee (08:07):
Yes, and I think there was a lot of, you know,
being in the right space at theright time.
So fashion, a lot of leadingfashion groups, especially the
European ones, because theyeither set public targets around
2030 goals around emissions andenvironmental footprint and or,
(08:27):
because of upcoming regulations, they are forced to look at
their supply chain in a moremeaningful manner and within
that space.
So there's that demand and thepull from the potential
consumers not only some consumerdemands to be animal and
(08:55):
cruelty-free, but alsoincreasing demands to use less
toxic chemicals and more, lessof petroleum-based inputs,
because the alternative, likevegan leather, is petroleum
derived and then compared to,you know, polyesters or nylon or
other type of textiles that arepetroleum driven.
I think, with consumers withleather, we are already open and
(09:16):
used to the idea of leatherbeing from multiple sources.
So you have, like calfskin,lambskin, you have exotics, like
reptilian leather.
So, and lastly, because there'sa wide range of leather types,
there's also a wider range ofwillingness to pay.
So, for all of those reasons,it felt like leather was the
right place to start.
Steven Ruffing (09:36):
Absolutely.
When you're producing thesefungi-based materials,
specifically fungi-based leather, do you try to replicate maybe
what a normal you say reptilianleather looks like or cow skin
leather looks like.
Do you try to replicate that tokind of make it still seem like
it's not the real thing but atraditional leather?
Rachel Lee (09:58):
Yes and no.
So, when you think about havingan impact, a lot of it.
To have an impact, we need toreplace or become a meaningful
part of a brand's supply chainand their materials.
And a lot of what they have arethe traditional looking things,
whether it's like a cow feather, like a traditional pebble
(10:19):
grain or just a traditionalgrain, and I think there's that
demand from some brands.
At the same time, if you and Iare carrying around a bag or a
shoe made with just blackleather, look, we don't know
what that's from.
So if you want consumers towant something, I think there's
(10:41):
some interest from brands tomake it look different.
So I'm at Hideify that's one ofthe choices we made to give
brands a few different options.
So if you want something thatreally looks like it, we'll
deliver on that.
But at the same time, if wewant to create something that
not only is made from somethingdifferent but looks different,
let's also work on that.
Steven Ruffing (11:00):
Yeah.
So what are those things thatyou're trying to test or develop
that does make Hideify standout from a looks aspect Because
obviously now we know it standsout because it's fungi based
leather but as a visualstandpoint, what are?
What is your team doing to kindof stand out and make sure
someone looks at a leather bagor a fungi based leather bag and
(11:23):
say, oh, that's made fromhideify yes, so we and some of
this will need to be apartnership with the brands and
fit their brands identities.
Rachel Lee (11:33):
But one of the things, if you come swing by our
booth at a trade show, forexample, that you'll see is we
have a lot of traditionallooking materials with different
colors, and we also have acatalog of things that play with
optical effects.
Catalog of things that playwith optical effects.
(11:56):
So things that may look likeoil and water on a surface or
things that look feel more likeleather but look like crushed
velvet, for example.
So these are things where we'renot reinventing the whole
technology.
There's some existing partnersout there that can help us
achieve some of these opticalillusions, but our idea was
let's apply that to a newmaterial because the synergy of
(12:17):
that could be something that'sinteresting to brands.
Steven Ruffing (12:19):
Yeah, definitely so.
And you talking aboutpartnerships, tell everyone
about the partnership that youhave going on right now.
Rachel Lee (12:28):
Yeah, so I can talk about our partnership with
Stella McCartney, which has beena fantastic one.
Our partners have been wonderful.
Some I cannot name right nowbecause until the products hit
the market.
But you know it's a dialogueand we get a lot of feedback in
terms of the hand feel, gloss,the colors we want to do.
And then we also inform brandsabout how to work with a fungi
(12:53):
composite material.
Stella McCartney in particularthey are creating elevated.
They're known for using futureforward and art friendly
materials in very high endfashion collections and they
have high standards.
So we needed to have createdsomething that has a good look,
feel and performance.
(13:13):
So if you're asking about thelatest launch that we had, that
one was a pretty, pretty fun oneto work with, though stressful
at that time, because weactually saw we met them last
summer and there was a uniqueopportunity where they were
launching a new style of a bag,so that's the new rider
(13:34):
collection.
So we had this opportunity, ifwe could meet the timing, to be
a new type of material in a newtype of bag, and they also
happened to fall in love withthe silver metallic that we had,
which was very experimental atthat time.
So they said let's get this onthe September Paris Fashion Show
(13:54):
and this was June when wetalked about this.
So we have a team that lovesthe challenge, and an amazing
one.
So, yeah, three months later, Isaw it go down the runway and
we did the global sales for thesummer collection and I saw the
magic that can happen when youhave a supplier and a brand
working as partners that aremotivated together with a goal
(14:16):
in mind.
So I find all of thesepartnerships really exciting
because everyone is trying towork on bringing a new
innovation and trying tointroduce people to new types of
sustainable materials.
So appreciate all of thesepartnerships.
Steven Ruffing (14:33):
So clearly there was some challenges, very
stressful moments.
Go through some of thosehurdles, some of the biggest
hurdles and challenges that youhad to get over throughout the
development process and thecreation process.
Rachel Lee (14:47):
Yeah, where should I start?
Steven Ruffing (14:48):
Yeah, right, Is there what too many to count?
Rachel Lee (14:51):
I think the overall is that, you know, like with
many new innovations, whetherit's in a textile or something
else, for us there was noplaybook Because, also, we were
one of the earlier movers and weactually built it in, quote
unquote, stealth.
We were in a very gratefulposition to get this support
(15:12):
from a parent company, so wefocused on the product.
But I think there are a coupleof challenges to bringing some
of these minutes that you needto make sure that performance is
table stakes, so finding theright formulation to get it to
be strong and then, second,finding the right equipment and
process and partners to make ithappen, since there's not much
(15:35):
precedent and there's no playersor equipment specializing in
this.
So I would say those were thehigh level challenges and, as I
was hinting at earlier, westarted with a more traditional
tannery like process.
So we I spoke with so manytanneries took the material to
different tanneries to, you know, test whether we could use the
(15:58):
traditional equipments andmethods and we quickly realized
that that was not probably themost sustainable path.
I think it could work, but whenwe think about our ambitions
around scale was not the rightchoice for us.
So we we then pivoted and, youknow, continue to pivot, but I
would say those are some of thechallenges that we started off
(16:20):
with.
Steven Ruffing (16:21):
And that's all a part of the innovation process,
and this might be a difficultquestion for you.
But what leads and how do youapproach the innovation and
innovative process?
Is it science, is it fashion,is it sustainability, or is it
something else or everything?
Rachel Lee (16:39):
It's everything a bit of all I would say.
for us, we are, first andforemost, science led, while
always keeping the North Star ofsustainability at play, and as
a team, we've had to discusswhat our core values are and how
we set parameters, because, asmuch as I love fashion, fashion
(17:00):
will always be subject tofashion and trends and we cannot
, as a small team, change ourdirection.
Every time there's a little bitof a different direction.
So we found that also withsustainability, because when you
think about what consumers andcustomers ask for, there's
(17:22):
different flavors ofsustainability that can be
important, whether it's thegreenhouse gas emissions,
whether it's water and landusage, even language like is it
bio-based or biodegradable?
People define it differentlyand we try to be a good partner
to many, but we cannot.
We cannot.
We have to pick focus and dowhat's right for us.
(17:44):
So for us it's it's mostlyscience led with making sure our
North star of sustainability isthere, but ultimately we need
to also care about fashion,because people will buy and sell
what's attractive and it needsto look good.
Steven Ruffing (18:00):
Absolutely.
And let's talk about timing.
How important was timing to you?
Because when we talk aboutsustainability as a trend, it's
only going up from here.
How has timing played a role inthat figuring out when to start
developing this, withsustainability being at the a
lot of people on on a lot ofpeople's minds?
Rachel Lee (18:23):
It worked out it worked out.
Because I would say that, likefor me personally, when I got
interested in it in 2019, andthen starting on it in 2020, it
didn't feel like as much of amainstream dialogue.
It feels like AI orsustainability, or tech.
(18:43):
It's all of these languageswhere, ultimately, I think we'll
be in a scenario of the worldin which we don't have a tech
company or an AI company or asustainability company.
It's every company is going tohave to incorporate those
elements into their business togo into the next phase of
business and to survive.
So for us, it's worked, it'sworked out.
(19:07):
But I would say, even withinthe past five years, we've seen
ebbs and flows where people'swillingness to pay looks
different for brands.
When business line, your bottomline, is impacted by a lot of
(19:30):
macroeconomic factors, then howmuch is their willingness to pay
around sustainability?
I think those are things thatwe see vary, but overall, the
macro trend is every companyneeds to care and will be caring
about it.
Steven Ruffing (19:45):
Absolutely so you have a sustainable product.
But let's look at theproduction process.
Where does sustainability standin the actual production
process itself?
Rachel Lee (19:55):
Yeah.
So I would say wheresustainability comes in is in
multiple steps of the process.
So everything from theselection of what we put in it
to how we process it, to how wethink about the afterlife of it.
So what we do in terms of ourprocess is that we take the
(20:18):
fungi that we grow throughfermentation and we also take
other plant-based polymers thatare grown through fermentation
as well, made throughfermentation.
In the case of stone McCartneymaterial, we used sugarcane
waste streams, polymers derivedfrom sugarcane waste streams, so
the benefit of fermentation andthe fungi in addition to it
(20:40):
just grown in a shorter periodof time and it uses more
resources from nature and wecombine all of those inputs and
then we heat them and mold theminto sheets of different
thickness.
So I was mentioning earlier thatwe moved away from more of a
traditional tanning like processand there were many reasons
(21:02):
behind that choice, includingthe fact that it opens up a lot
of the.
It really opened up the worldin terms of who we can work with
and for us.
We use actually very commonpolymer equipment, so things
that you might see in theplastics industry to make
floorboards, lamination, etc.
We're able to use thoseequipment and imagine the scale
(21:25):
that we can make it with.
But the other benefit of thisis that it eliminates many steps
and a lot of water, so theprocess doesn't use water.
It's a pretty quick process,which leads to lower amount of
resource and energy usage.
And then, once we have thesheets and rolls of material,
(21:45):
then we finalize with a toplayer of finishing that can
adjust color, hand feel andgloss to customers' liking.
Steven Ruffing (21:54):
And it's a novel process.
It's a novel product as well.
Hearing all about thatproduction process, how do you
stay ahead in a space and anindustry that's one incredibly
competitive and two rapidlyevolving?
Rachel Lee (22:12):
Yeah, that is always the quintessential challenge
for us.
Until now, it's been getting toit's where.
I think we go back to theprinciples that we mentioned
because ultimately, I thinkthere was a period of time in
which the novelty and thesustainability alone was enough
(22:32):
to merit enough curiosity forsomeone to try something.
But looking ahead, that's notgoing to last.
You need something that isstrong and durable enough that
it could be a mainstream part ofa supply chain.
That it could be a mainstreampart of a supply chain, for
example, it needs toindependently look good and feel
good, so that if I put it infront of someone and don't tell
(22:54):
them what it is, they need tofind it attractive independently
, for example.
So I think that's how we thinkabout staying ahead the making a
material that is super durablewhat I like to call life proof
that can survive and just growwith you and still look good and
feel good.
I think the piece where wethat's probably the next phase
(23:18):
for us is that we're stillpretty small.
So we're focusing on corecolors and having a selection
available and then alsocustomizing for some brands, but
we're not at a place yet tobehave like the traditional, the
traditional industry, where,for them, every quarter, every
(23:39):
half a year, they're updatingtheir color palettes, for
example, and I think that's, I'dlike to think that's next phase
for us, but for now, focusingon what we're doing and
providing options that standthrough tests of time.
Steven Ruffing (23:54):
Absolutely.
I was just going to ask what isnext for HIDA5?
If you wanted to add anythingelse, whether it's new materials
getting into new industries,anything like that because we
did already talk about somepartnerships and some new
products coming out that we justcan't touch just yet.
So teasing the audience alittle bit.
But what else is next forHidify?
Where do you see this companygoing?
Rachel Lee (24:17):
Yeah, when we think about what's next in terms of
products, for example, hopefullyyou'll be seeing more of a
different formats, differentproducts come to life with
different brands.
Beyond that, for us, we'rethinking about what else can we,
what else can we bring toconsumers?
(24:37):
So, within the textile space,there are things like ultra,
ultra soft, ultra supplematerial.
That goes even beyond what wehave right now.
There's also some interestingpotential for non-textile areas
that our technology is able toget into, but with the
quintessential challenge of astartup, we want to maintain
(25:00):
focus.
So, get this initial phaseright and for us that's 2.0 and
3.0.
Steven Ruffing (25:06):
Absolutely Now.
Is there anything else that youwanted to add?
Rachel Lee (25:09):
Maybe we left out, maybe that we didn't get to yeah
, maybe to more fully addressyour question about what's next.
There's the products, but Ithink when we think about the
upcoming years and in the nextfive years I hope we are
beginning to move from acuriosity to an accepted textile
(25:31):
and while many designers areaware of the material, consumers
have had limited opportunity tointeract with high defy and
also just this broader next genmaterials at large.
By then consumers are going tohave proof points around how
durable and how nice feeling thematerials are.
So we want consumer acceptanceand adoption and my hope is that
(25:53):
by this material becoming amore commonly accepted textile,
this can open doors for othersustainable textiles and I think
a big success will be anindicator for big success will
be if we see traditional players, whether they're tanneries or
large textile manufacturers,also start to provide options,
(26:14):
because ultimately that's whatwe want consumers to have
options to move and go towardsthat way.
Steven Ruffing (26:21):
If there's one thing that the audience or the
listeners can take away afterthis interview, what would that
be?
What would you want them toknow the most about leather
alternatives, specifically thisfungi-based one that you guys
have worked so hard on?
Rachel Lee (26:38):
Yeah, I would like consumers to know that the
future is here, it's not faraway.
We have sustainable materialsthat people don't need to
compromise on, whether it'sabout their choices and they can
feel good about making thechoice.
There's Hidify, and what I findexciting is there's also other
(27:00):
innovators working and hopefullythere will be more and more
options for consumers.
And I would say the other thingis, as consumers.
I think you asked a questionbefore around if we could change
one thing about how the worldthinks about materials, and I
thought about that and Irealized I don't think we think
(27:23):
about materials.
I don't think we think aboutmaterials enough, so that's the
other thing.
I hope that we could thinkabout materials.
I don't think we think aboutmaterials enough, so that's the
other thing.
I hope that we could thinkabout materials more, whether
it's you know the clothes we'rewearing, you know the chairs
we're sitting on, what are theymade out of, what happens to
them afterwards in the afterlife, and what are choices that we
can be making in our day-to-daylives.
Steven Ruffing (27:45):
Is there anything else that you wanted to
add?
Rachel Lee (27:47):
Thinking about what are the things that actually
build to something.
Being busy working on thingsdoesn't always build to the
right thing.
So when we think about thechoices and investments that we
need to make early, that willunlock and accelerate everything
else.
So for us, that was investingin the right people and the
product and the partners, versusnice to have that can wait.
(28:10):
For us, the nice to have wasthe building, the buzz, the
marketing, et cetera.
I think that was a key lessonfor us.
It's like what are the criticalmust-haves versus the nice to
haves that determine whether youhave a business or not.
Steven Ruffing (28:25):
So it's like anything.
It took a village to get towhere you are.
Rachel Lee (28:28):
Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Steven Ruffing (28:31):
Any social medias, any websites that you
wanted to get out there, sopeople know exactly where to
find you.
Rachel Lee (28:36):
Yes, find us at hideifycom.
Steven Ruffing (28:39):
Perfect, easy enough.
Well, rachel, thank you so muchfor joining us.
We're going to continue tofollow as Hidify continues to
grow, and we're looking forwardto the future.
Rachel Lee (28:50):
Thank you, Stephen.
Steven Ruffing (28:52):
All right, everyone.
That's all the time we have.
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to another episode of the Four
Worlds podcast.
Joining us today is Rachel Lee,a founding partner and general
manager with Hydify.
Rachel, thank you so much forjoining us.
Rachel Lee (00:11):
Thank you for having me, Stephen.
Steven Ruffing (00:13):
So Hydify is a responsible materials company
that uses fungi-based materialsto create an alternative to
leather.
Rachel tell us more about thatmaterial and how nature is truly
at its core.
Rachel Lee (00:28):
Absolutely.
You know the material that wehave.
It is primarily fungi andsugarcane inputs driven.
So when we thought about why wegot started on this, you hear
about leather quite a bit, right, we probably have a lot of
items in our households, forexample, and we wanted to think
(00:50):
about how to create like a thirdcategory for consumers.
So in our lives there's animalleather absolutely beautiful
material, but, depending onwhere you're getting it from,
there's some ethicalenvironmental health concerns in
its manufacturing process, noteven talking about the
greenhouse gas emissions.
And you know there's a lot ofvegan leather out there and I
(01:11):
think most consumers aregradually becoming more aware of
it.
But a lot of the vegan leatheris made out of PVC, polymyelon
chloride or PU polyurethane,which comes with its own health
and environmental concerns,particularly PVC.
So at Hydify we were reallypassionate about the idea of how
can we give consumers somethingelse?
(01:32):
So that's what got us startedin thinking about making fungi
and other plant-based materials,starting with leather.
Steven Ruffing (01:40):
And I just want to know how do you even get to
that point?
I'm sure it's a lot of research, a lot of testing, but how do
you get to that point where youthink of the idea let's try
fungi as an alternative?
Rachel Lee (01:54):
Yes, yes, and there's also some other amazing
innovators out there that'sworking on fungi.
There's some mushroom-basedleather that you may have heard
of.
For us we were a pretty uniquesituation and fungi was a
natural starting point for us,because we actually have a
parent company called Nature'sFind and the Finder Group and
the whole company uses this newextremophile from Yellowstone
(02:18):
National Park.
So the fungi that we use isactually what we call an
extremophile, so it survives invery extreme heat and acidity
and it was in some of thegeothermal hot springs
Yellowstone National Park.
And one of the originalfounders, amitra Spines.
He was doing PhD researchsupported by NASA and discovered
(02:38):
this extremophile that wassuper resource efficient.
So when you think about growinganything, whether it's a cow or
protein source, anything we livein a world with, you know,
increasingly fewer resources howdo you, how do you deal in that
world?
How do you grow something withfewer resources?
So when this mixed stream offile was quick to grow it grows
(03:00):
within two to three days.
It's it means lower carbon,water, energy footprint, et
cetera, and it had interestingproperties, such as it has all
the essential amino acids.
So the food side of thebusiness was already starting to
look into creating foodproducts with it.
But if you look underneath themicroscope it has this
filamentous structure that kindof resembles like fibrous
(03:23):
network, like skin, and that'swhat got.
That's what sparked the idea ofthe biomaterial side of the
business, which eventually grewinto what's Hideify.
So we thought you know what, ifwe treat this like a skin
instead of an animal, like cowhide, can we make a material out
of it.
And then over time we wentthrough a lot of R&D iterations
and the material evolved intosomething different, with
(03:45):
different than what where westarted.
But that was the genesis ofthinking about this extremophile
and bringing this new to worldorganism to the market.
Steven Ruffing (03:54):
And you talk about going through the R&D
process, finding out, coming upwith the idea.
How long, approximately, didthat process take?
Because it really it doesn'tsound like an easy process.
Of course, nothing is ever easy, but this one does seem a
little complex.
So how long did that processtake, from idea to starting to
produce something?
Rachel Lee (04:14):
Honestly, longer than I thought it would and
longer than we probably wanted.
And it's a little hard to saydefinitive numbers because I
think in the beginning it wasvery bare bone R&D lab where we
did a lot of experiments andthen a lot of it was to create
proof of concept, to even see isthere there, there, to convince
(04:35):
the company to potentiallyinvest more resources into
growing the business andinvesting in R&D.
And I think there's a lot oflessons I learned from that the
business and investing in R&D,and I think there's a lot of
lessons I learned from that.
I would say a lot of the workgot accelerated when we had some
of our rockstar scientists,especially with people with
experience in commercializationand with PhD backgrounds, join.
(04:56):
So then, once you have themagic of having the right team,
we also made a couple of pivotsand once we did that, I would
say, you know, probably aroundthree years time, wow, getting
it and you're spot on.
Steven Ruffing (05:16):
There's a lot of lessons in transforming a fungi
into a leather-like material.
I mean, really, when you thinkabout it three years I'm sure
where you're at right now, thepoint you're at with Hideify do
you look back and say, wow, thatthree years really did go quick
.
Rachel Lee (05:26):
When all is said and done, yes, because not only the
guy joined the company Nature'sFind in March to May of 2020.
And it feels like a differentpoint in time, but it was peak
pandemic, so there was also adifferent period of the world of
working in a lab looked verydifferent.
There was also a differentperiod of the world of working
in a lab looked very different.
(05:46):
And the time really does flybecause each phase feels
different and exciting and we'rein a privileged position where
we get to interact with a lot ofbrands that come with different
stories, that come withslightly different things
they're looking for, so it feelslike we're working on many
products at once.
So time really flies whenyou're having fun, like to say.
Steven Ruffing (06:05):
Yeah, I mean it's cliche, but it really is
the truth.
You're obviously doingsomething that you like,
something that you're passionateabout, and it's a part of your
personal background or yourenvironmental philosophy.
So take me through how youpersonally have helped influence
the impact of Hidify youpersonally have helped influence
(06:27):
the impact of Hidify.
Rachel Lee (06:28):
I'd like to think that I had a pretty big impact.
So my background actually wasin a bit of more in food.
So I was for many years I waspassionate about improving food
systems and health and humanlives.
So that's what naturally led meto meet with Nature's Find,
because I was so excited aboutinnovation, because we talked
about world with increasinglyscarce resources and it's how we
(06:50):
use those resources and do itin a way to benefit people.
I think that's where innovationcomes in.
So Nature's Find was working onthis really promising project of
bringing a new to world protein, and there was a wave of food
tech right, a lot of energy.
There's a lot of amazinginnovators working in this space
and it felt like there's anopportunity to bring that
(07:13):
similar energy to the materialspace, because fashion not only
employs a lot of the globalworkforce, it uses a lot of the
earth's resources, has a deepimpact on environment.
I think we see a lot of thestatistics around it being
responsible for 10% ofgreenhouse gas emissions go
around, for example.
So when the opportunity came toessentially build this startup
(07:35):
within a startup, to startHydrofy and build it to a
biomaterials business fromnature's Fine.
It felt like a dream role tohelp that and from there, of
course, got other teammates tojoin, built the team and then we
built a product.
Steven Ruffing (07:52):
And when you talk about the climate impact
that, let's say, the fashionindustry, the leather industry,
has on the environment, is thatone of the reasons why you chose
fashion and, in particular,leather?
To start with Hydify?
Rachel Lee (08:07):
Yes, and I think there was a lot of, you know,
being in the right space at theright time.
So fashion, a lot of leadingfashion groups, especially the
European ones, because theyeither set public targets around
2030 goals around emissions andenvironmental footprint and or,
(08:27):
because of upcoming regulations, they are forced to look at
their supply chain in a moremeaningful manner and within
that space.
So there's that demand and thepull from the potential
consumers not only some consumerdemands to be animal and
(08:55):
cruelty-free, but alsoincreasing demands to use less
toxic chemicals and more, lessof petroleum-based inputs,
because the alternative, likevegan leather, is petroleum
derived and then compared to,you know, polyesters or nylon or
other type of textiles that arepetroleum driven.
I think, with consumers withleather, we are already open and
(09:16):
used to the idea of leatherbeing from multiple sources.
So you have, like calfskin,lambskin, you have exotics, like
reptilian leather.
So, and lastly, because there'sa wide range of leather types,
there's also a wider range ofwillingness to pay.
So, for all of those reasons,it felt like leather was the
right place to start.
Steven Ruffing (09:36):
Absolutely.
When you're producing thesefungi-based materials,
specifically fungi-based leather, do you try to replicate maybe
what a normal you say reptilianleather looks like or cow skin
leather looks like.
Do you try to replicate that tokind of make it still seem like
it's not the real thing but atraditional leather?
Rachel Lee (09:58):
Yes and no.
So, when you think about havingan impact, a lot of it.
To have an impact, we need toreplace or become a meaningful
part of a brand's supply chainand their materials.
And a lot of what they have arethe traditional looking things,
whether it's like a cow feather, like a traditional pebble
(10:19):
grain or just a traditionalgrain, and I think there's that
demand from some brands.
At the same time, if you and Iare carrying around a bag or a
shoe made with just blackleather, look, we don't know
what that's from.
So if you want consumers towant something, I think there's
(10:41):
some interest from brands tomake it look different.
So I'm at Hideify that's one ofthe choices we made to give
brands a few different options.
So if you want something thatreally looks like it, we'll
deliver on that.
But at the same time, if wewant to create something that
not only is made from somethingdifferent but looks different,
let's also work on that.
Steven Ruffing (11:00):
Yeah.
So what are those things thatyou're trying to test or develop
that does make Hideify standout from a looks aspect Because
obviously now we know it standsout because it's fungi based
leather but as a visualstandpoint, what are?
What is your team doing to kindof stand out and make sure
someone looks at a leather bagor a fungi based leather bag and
(11:23):
say, oh, that's made fromhideify yes, so we and some of
this will need to be apartnership with the brands and
fit their brands identities.
Rachel Lee (11:33):
But one of the things, if you come swing by our
booth at a trade show, forexample, that you'll see is we
have a lot of traditionallooking materials with different
colors, and we also have acatalog of things that play with
optical effects.
Catalog of things that playwith optical effects.
(11:56):
So things that may look likeoil and water on a surface or
things that look feel more likeleather but look like crushed
velvet, for example.
So these are things where we'renot reinventing the whole
technology.
There's some existing partnersout there that can help us
achieve some of these opticalillusions, but our idea was
let's apply that to a newmaterial because the synergy of
(12:17):
that could be something that'sinteresting to brands.
Steven Ruffing (12:19):
Yeah, definitely so.
And you talking aboutpartnerships, tell everyone
about the partnership that youhave going on right now.
Rachel Lee (12:28):
Yeah, so I can talk about our partnership with
Stella McCartney, which has beena fantastic one.
Our partners have been wonderful.
Some I cannot name right nowbecause until the products hit
the market.
But you know it's a dialogueand we get a lot of feedback in
terms of the hand feel, gloss,the colors we want to do.
And then we also inform brandsabout how to work with a fungi
(12:53):
composite material.
Stella McCartney in particularthey are creating elevated.
They're known for using futureforward and art friendly
materials in very high endfashion collections and they
have high standards.
So we needed to have createdsomething that has a good look,
feel and performance.
(13:13):
So if you're asking about thelatest launch that we had, that
one was a pretty, pretty fun oneto work with, though stressful
at that time, because weactually saw we met them last
summer and there was a uniqueopportunity where they were
launching a new style of a bag,so that's the new rider
(13:34):
collection.
So we had this opportunity, ifwe could meet the timing, to be
a new type of material in a newtype of bag, and they also
happened to fall in love withthe silver metallic that we had,
which was very experimental atthat time.
So they said let's get this onthe September Paris Fashion Show
(13:54):
and this was June when wetalked about this.
So we have a team that lovesthe challenge, and an amazing
one.
So, yeah, three months later, Isaw it go down the runway and
we did the global sales for thesummer collection and I saw the
magic that can happen when youhave a supplier and a brand
working as partners that aremotivated together with a goal
(14:16):
in mind.
So I find all of thesepartnerships really exciting
because everyone is trying towork on bringing a new
innovation and trying tointroduce people to new types of
sustainable materials.
So appreciate all of thesepartnerships.
Steven Ruffing (14:33):
So clearly there was some challenges, very
stressful moments.
Go through some of thosehurdles, some of the biggest
hurdles and challenges that youhad to get over throughout the
development process and thecreation process.
Rachel Lee (14:47):
Yeah, where should I start?
Steven Ruffing (14:48):
Yeah, right, Is there what too many to count?
Rachel Lee (14:51):
I think the overall is that, you know, like with
many new innovations, whetherit's in a textile or something
else, for us there was noplaybook Because, also, we were
one of the earlier movers and weactually built it in, quote
unquote, stealth.
We were in a very gratefulposition to get this support
(15:12):
from a parent company, so wefocused on the product.
But I think there are a coupleof challenges to bringing some
of these minutes that you needto make sure that performance is
table stakes, so finding theright formulation to get it to
be strong and then, second,finding the right equipment and
process and partners to make ithappen, since there's not much
(15:35):
precedent and there's no playersor equipment specializing in
this.
So I would say those were thehigh level challenges and, as I
was hinting at earlier, westarted with a more traditional
tannery like process.
So we I spoke with so manytanneries took the material to
different tanneries to, you know, test whether we could use the
(15:58):
traditional equipments andmethods and we quickly realized
that that was not probably themost sustainable path.
I think it could work, but whenwe think about our ambitions
around scale was not the rightchoice for us.
So we we then pivoted and, youknow, continue to pivot, but I
would say those are some of thechallenges that we started off
(16:20):
with.
Steven Ruffing (16:21):
And that's all a part of the innovation process,
and this might be a difficultquestion for you.
But what leads and how do youapproach the innovation and
innovative process?
Is it science, is it fashion,is it sustainability, or is it
something else or everything?
Rachel Lee (16:39):
It's everything a bit of all I would say.
for us, we are, first andforemost, science led, while
always keeping the North Star ofsustainability at play, and as
a team, we've had to discusswhat our core values are and how
we set parameters, because, asmuch as I love fashion, fashion
(17:00):
will always be subject tofashion and trends and we cannot
, as a small team, change ourdirection.
Every time there's a little bitof a different direction.
So we found that also withsustainability, because when you
think about what consumers andcustomers ask for, there's
(17:22):
different flavors ofsustainability that can be
important, whether it's thegreenhouse gas emissions,
whether it's water and landusage, even language like is it
bio-based or biodegradable?
People define it differentlyand we try to be a good partner
to many, but we cannot.
We cannot.
We have to pick focus and dowhat's right for us.
(17:44):
So for us it's it's mostlyscience led with making sure our
North star of sustainability isthere, but ultimately we need
to also care about fashion,because people will buy and sell
what's attractive and it needsto look good.
Steven Ruffing (18:00):
Absolutely.
And let's talk about timing.
How important was timing to you?
Because when we talk aboutsustainability as a trend, it's
only going up from here.
How has timing played a role inthat figuring out when to start
developing this, withsustainability being at the a
lot of people on on a lot ofpeople's minds?
Rachel Lee (18:23):
It worked out it worked out.
Because I would say that, likefor me personally, when I got
interested in it in 2019, andthen starting on it in 2020, it
didn't feel like as much of amainstream dialogue.
It feels like AI orsustainability, or tech.
(18:43):
It's all of these languageswhere, ultimately, I think we'll
be in a scenario of the worldin which we don't have a tech
company or an AI company or asustainability company.
It's every company is going tohave to incorporate those
elements into their business togo into the next phase of
business and to survive.
So for us, it's worked, it'sworked out.
(19:07):
But I would say, even withinthe past five years, we've seen
ebbs and flows where people'swillingness to pay looks
different for brands.
When business line, your bottomline, is impacted by a lot of
(19:30):
macroeconomic factors, then howmuch is their willingness to pay
around sustainability?
I think those are things thatwe see vary, but overall, the
macro trend is every companyneeds to care and will be caring
about it.
Steven Ruffing (19:45):
Absolutely so you have a sustainable product.
But let's look at theproduction process.
Where does sustainability standin the actual production
process itself?
Rachel Lee (19:55):
Yeah.
So I would say wheresustainability comes in is in
multiple steps of the process.
So everything from theselection of what we put in it
to how we process it, to how wethink about the afterlife of it.
So what we do in terms of ourprocess is that we take the
(20:18):
fungi that we grow throughfermentation and we also take
other plant-based polymers thatare grown through fermentation
as well, made throughfermentation.
In the case of stone McCartneymaterial, we used sugarcane
waste streams, polymers derivedfrom sugarcane waste streams, so
the benefit of fermentation andthe fungi in addition to it
(20:40):
just grown in a shorter periodof time and it uses more
resources from nature and wecombine all of those inputs and
then we heat them and mold theminto sheets of different
thickness.
So I was mentioning earlier thatwe moved away from more of a
traditional tanning like processand there were many reasons
(21:02):
behind that choice, includingthe fact that it opens up a lot
of the.
It really opened up the worldin terms of who we can work with
and for us.
We use actually very commonpolymer equipment, so things
that you might see in theplastics industry to make
floorboards, lamination, etc.
We're able to use thoseequipment and imagine the scale
(21:25):
that we can make it with.
But the other benefit of thisis that it eliminates many steps
and a lot of water, so theprocess doesn't use water.
It's a pretty quick process,which leads to lower amount of
resource and energy usage.
And then, once we have thesheets and rolls of material,
(21:45):
then we finalize with a toplayer of finishing that can
adjust color, hand feel andgloss to customers' liking.
Steven Ruffing (21:54):
And it's a novel process.
It's a novel product as well.
Hearing all about thatproduction process, how do you
stay ahead in a space and anindustry that's one incredibly
competitive and two rapidlyevolving?
Rachel Lee (22:12):
Yeah, that is always the quintessential challenge
for us.
Until now, it's been getting toit's where.
I think we go back to theprinciples that we mentioned
because ultimately, I thinkthere was a period of time in
which the novelty and thesustainability alone was enough
(22:32):
to merit enough curiosity forsomeone to try something.
But looking ahead, that's notgoing to last.
You need something that isstrong and durable enough that
it could be a mainstream part ofa supply chain.
That it could be a mainstreampart of a supply chain, for
example, it needs toindependently look good and feel
good, so that if I put it infront of someone and don't tell
(22:54):
them what it is, they need tofind it attractive independently
, for example.
So I think that's how we thinkabout staying ahead the making a
material that is super durablewhat I like to call life proof
that can survive and just growwith you and still look good and
feel good.
I think the piece where wethat's probably the next phase
(23:18):
for us is that we're stillpretty small.
So we're focusing on corecolors and having a selection
available and then alsocustomizing for some brands, but
we're not at a place yet tobehave like the traditional, the
traditional industry, where,for them, every quarter, every
(23:39):
half a year, they're updatingtheir color palettes, for
example, and I think that's, I'dlike to think that's next phase
for us, but for now, focusingon what we're doing and
providing options that standthrough tests of time.
Steven Ruffing (23:54):
Absolutely.
I was just going to ask what isnext for HIDA5?
If you wanted to add anythingelse, whether it's new materials
getting into new industries,anything like that because we
did already talk about somepartnerships and some new
products coming out that we justcan't touch just yet.
So teasing the audience alittle bit.
But what else is next forHidify?
Where do you see this companygoing?
Rachel Lee (24:17):
Yeah, when we think about what's next in terms of
products, for example, hopefullyyou'll be seeing more of a
different formats, differentproducts come to life with
different brands.
Beyond that, for us, we'rethinking about what else can we,
what else can we bring toconsumers?
(24:37):
So, within the textile space,there are things like ultra,
ultra soft, ultra supplematerial.
That goes even beyond what wehave right now.
There's also some interestingpotential for non-textile areas
that our technology is able toget into, but with the
quintessential challenge of astartup, we want to maintain
(25:00):
focus.
So, get this initial phaseright and for us that's 2.0 and
3.0.
Steven Ruffing (25:06):
Absolutely Now.
Is there anything else that youwanted to add?
Rachel Lee (25:09):
Maybe we left out, maybe that we didn't get to yeah
, maybe to more fully addressyour question about what's next.
There's the products, but Ithink when we think about the
upcoming years and in the nextfive years I hope we are
beginning to move from acuriosity to an accepted textile
(25:31):
and while many designers areaware of the material, consumers
have had limited opportunity tointeract with high defy and
also just this broader next genmaterials at large.
By then consumers are going tohave proof points around how
durable and how nice feeling thematerials are.
So we want consumer acceptanceand adoption and my hope is that
(25:53):
by this material becoming amore commonly accepted textile,
this can open doors for othersustainable textiles and I think
a big success will be anindicator for big success will
be if we see traditional players, whether they're tanneries or
large textile manufacturers,also start to provide options,
(26:14):
because ultimately that's whatwe want consumers to have
options to move and go towardsthat way.
Steven Ruffing (26:21):
If there's one thing that the audience or the
listeners can take away afterthis interview, what would that
be?
What would you want them toknow the most about leather
alternatives, specifically thisfungi-based one that you guys
have worked so hard on?
Rachel Lee (26:38):
Yeah, I would like consumers to know that the
future is here, it's not faraway.
We have sustainable materialsthat people don't need to
compromise on, whether it'sabout their choices and they can
feel good about making thechoice.
There's Hidify, and what I findexciting is there's also other
(27:00):
innovators working and hopefullythere will be more and more
options for consumers.
And I would say the other thingis, as consumers.
I think you asked a questionbefore around if we could change
one thing about how the worldthinks about materials, and I
thought about that and Irealized I don't think we think
(27:23):
about materials.
I don't think we think aboutmaterials enough, so that's the
other thing.
I hope that we could thinkabout materials.
I don't think we think aboutmaterials enough, so that's the
other thing.
I hope that we could thinkabout materials more, whether
it's you know the clothes we'rewearing, you know the chairs
we're sitting on, what are theymade out of, what happens to
them afterwards in the afterlife, and what are choices that we
can be making in our day-to-daylives.
Steven Ruffing (27:45):
Is there anything else that you wanted to
add?
Rachel Lee (27:47):
Thinking about what are the things that actually
build to something.
Being busy working on thingsdoesn't always build to the
right thing.
So when we think about thechoices and investments that we
need to make early, that willunlock and accelerate everything
else.
So for us, that was investingin the right people and the
product and the partners, versusnice to have that can wait.
(28:10):
For us, the nice to have wasthe building, the buzz, the
marketing, et cetera.
I think that was a key lessonfor us.
It's like what are the criticalmust-haves versus the nice to
haves that determine whether youhave a business or not.
Steven Ruffing (28:25):
So it's like anything.
It took a village to get towhere you are.
Rachel Lee (28:28):
Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Steven Ruffing (28:31):
Any social medias, any websites that you
wanted to get out there, sopeople know exactly where to
find you.
Rachel Lee (28:36):
Yes, find us at hideifycom.
Steven Ruffing (28:39):
Perfect, easy enough.
Well, rachel, thank you so muchfor joining us.
We're going to continue tofollow as Hidify continues to
grow, and we're looking forwardto the future.
Rachel Lee (28:50):
Thank you, Stephen.
Steven Ruffing (28:52):
All right, everyone.
That's all the time we have.
We'll see you next time.
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