November 14, 2025 • 39 mins
Ever wonder who stands between a pile of cast-off clothes and a landfill? We sit down with Jessica Franken, Director of Government Affairs at SMART, to unpack how a reuse-first approach turns textiles into a second-life economy—and why the right rules can scale it globally. Jessica takes us inside the quiet infrastructure of circularity: collectors sourcing from charities and institutions, expert sorters finding the best next use, and recyclers turning what can’t be worn into insulation and padding. Along the way, we dig into Extended Producer Responsibility for textiles, and explore how reuse-first language can lock in real environmental gains. 👖
The policy stakes are high. UN conversations about what counts as “reusable” versus “waste” could reshape cross-border flows overnight, affecting both landfill diversion and livelihoods built around quality secondhand apparel. Jessica breaks down how SMART is advocating for definitions and standards that reflect operational reality, not just theory. We also touch on the Americas Act’s nod to textile reuse and recycling infrastructure, as well as ongoing U.S. efforts to open market access where demand for secondhand goods is strong. 👕
If you care about sustainability, supply chains, or the future of fashion, this conversation connects the dots from sorting floors to statehouses. You’ll learn how to prepare for data and reporting under textile EPR, what success should look like in measurable outcomes, and how individuals and companies can engage—whether by tracking state bills, submitting comments, or partnering with trade groups. ♻️
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Welcome to the Four Worlds Podcast from Tomorrow's
World Today.
We're diving into the latest intech, science, and
sustainability, from nature'smysteries in the world of
inspiration to the hands-oncrafts of creation, the bold
breakthroughs of innovation, andthe scaled-up wonders of
production.
This is your ticket to thestories shaping tomorrow.
(00:23):
Welcome back, everyone, toanother episode of the Four
Worlds Podcast.
On today's episode, we haveJessica Franken, the Director of
Government Affairs at SecondaryMaterials in Recycled Textiles
Association, SMART for short.
SMART promotes the reuse andrecycling of textiles to drive a
more sustainable and circulareconomy.
(00:45):
Jessica, welcome to the show andthank you so much for joining
us.
SPEAKER_01 (00:48):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
It's really great to be here,and I'm excited to be able to
talk with you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:54):
No, we really appreciate you taking your time.
And before we really get intothings about what you do, you
know, kind of why you're heretoday, give us a little
background on SMART and a littlebit about your role with them.
SPEAKER_02 (01:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I handle direct, I'm thedirector of government affairs
for SMART, which, as you said,is the Secondary Materials and
Recycled Textiles Association.
And our trade associationrepresents some 200 businesses
here in the United States, inNorth America, and throughout
the world that are involved inbasically providing the reverse
(01:31):
logistics for the textile andapparel sector.
So these are companies that areinvolved in reusing and
recycling textiles, eitherpre-consumer, you know,
industrial materials that areleft over during the industrial
manufacturing process, oroftentimes, or probably most
often, sourced post-consumer.
(01:52):
So these are materials that aconsumer has used and no longer
is finding them useful.
And so what our industry does iswe capture those materials and
then see to it that they areeither reused, recycled, or
repurposed in some way.
And so that includes sourcingmaterials from institutional
(02:12):
facilities like hospitals andschools or from charitable
organizations like Goodwill andSalvation Army, who maybe aren't
able to sell all of theirmaterials in store.
And so that gives them theopportunity to sell them and
bring in more money for theircharitable activities.
And a lot of times thesematerials are either exported
(02:34):
or, as I mentioned, mayberepurposed if they're not
suitable for export to in thingslike industrial wiping cloths or
recycled into things likeinsulation and carpet padding.
So really, this industry isdoing everything that it can to
find a home for these materialsso that they don't go to
landfill.
(02:55):
And it's industry, it's kind of,I think, technically been around
for many hundreds of years, butour industry group has been
around since 1932.
So, so nearly a hundred years.
And and everybody probably getstired of me saying it, but I do
like to mention the taglinesmart was green before green was
smart.
Um we were doing this kind ofwork all along.
SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
So you're really kind of driving this industry
that's that's really trendingforward, you know, with an
emphasis on sustainability, ofcourse.
Now, where does your role comein?
And and you know, what do youkind of do for this initiative?
SPEAKER_02 (03:30):
Sure.
So as the director of governmentaffairs, I'm really the liaison
between the industry and all ofour different member companies
that participate in theorganization and public policy
makers.
And that's at the local level,state level, federal level, and
uh more recently at theinternational level.
And so basically I'm thatintermediary, and a lot of the
(03:54):
work that I do is from the sideof our industry.
I take what can be very complexpolicy activities and try to
distill them into clear, easy tounderstand messages so that our
members can either be aware oryou know act on their own behalf
if they need to.
And in the other direction, Ialso serve as the representative
(04:16):
of the industry beforepolicymakers.
So, you know, I help themunderstand the realities of how
the industry works and theimpacts that a particular policy
might have.
So again, uh I'm kind of thatin-between that intermediary.
I like to say that I speak bothof the languages and and help
translate.
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
And again, in an industry like that, that's a
it's a really important job tohave, especially just with the
way the industry is is trending.
So I I want to know what whatinspired you to lead government
affairs, get into this role uhspecifically in the textile
reuse and recycling.
Is this a an industry that youdo deeply care about?
(04:56):
Because I'm sure that'simportant to have, especially
what you're doing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:59):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I I didn't set out to workin textile reuse and recycling.
I feel like it kind of found me.
My background is in publicpolicy and government affairs
work, but I've always been drawnto issues that really sit at the
intersection of commerce andalso the environment and also
social good.
(05:20):
And, you know, from myperspective, when you have kind
of all of those things comingtogether, it's that win-win-win
in policy.
And I began working with Smartin 2007 when I was doing work
for what is called a tradeassociation management firm, but
you know, a firm that representsindustry groups like SMART.
(05:41):
Um, and in doing that work, Ireally quickly realized that
this industry is touching allthree of those areas, you know,
again, commerce, environment,and social good.
And what I saw in doing thiswork was that textile reuse and
recycling is really one of themost tangible examples of
circularity in action, again,because we all touch these
(06:03):
textile and apparel materials ona daily basis throughout the
world, um, but also because thecompanies that I represent these
materials that might otherwiseend up in landfills and they
give them a new life.
And again, that's through theresale and repurposing and
recycling that I mentioned.
So, you know, I think what'sinspired me to stay in this
(06:25):
field is again all of thosepositive impacts that are being
made just as a course of theirday-to-day operations.
Um, but then also that kind ofthe human and economic impact
that the industry is making.
I don't think I touched uponthis earlier, but I did
reference the fact that a lot ofthese materials are exported to
(06:46):
countries outside of the UnitedStates.
And that's because there isreally great demand for quality
secondhand apparel in a numberof developing nations across the
world, because these productsprovide, you know, again, good
quality, affordable apparel topeople that otherwise might not
be able to afford them.
(07:06):
And it also creates livelihoodssurrounding their own supply
chains in their countries interms of like millions of jobs
per country.
And so, you know, again, it'sthat intersection of really
positive environmental impact,positive economic impact, and
also, you know, positive socialimpact, you know, on our side
(07:29):
and theirs.
SPEAKER_00 (07:30):
Right.
No, that's great.
You would, you know, um comingup on almost 20 years with
Smart, it's it's easy to seethose, all that positive stuff
that uh the company has beenable to do, that you've been
able to do in your role.
But let's take it back, youknow, it could be 2007 or or
prior to that, some early careermoments that really confirmed
(07:50):
the urgency of circular policywork for you.
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
Yeah, it really was early on, like you said.
And, you know, when I firststarted working with Smart,
probably around that 2007, 2008time frame, I had the
opportunity to visit one of ourcompany members of facilities in
Baltimore, Maryland.
And while I was there, you know,I'd heard about what was going
(08:14):
on in the industry, but to seeit is something entirely
different.
And I found myself surrounded bythis really, you know, pretty
elaborate operation andmountains of textiles and
clothing.
And each one of these items wasbeing sorted by individuals that
have expertise in order to finda way for this material that
(08:35):
otherwise might go to landfillto have a second life.
And what struck me wasn't thevolume of the materials,
although that was significant,but really the value in what
these materials mean and youknow, in what others might call
waste.
And the fact that, you know,again, there's this whole
industry going on behind thescenes that's kind of quietly
(08:57):
doing this reclamation andrecovery work.
And then I think at the sametime, though, I was aware of the
fact that policymakers at timeswere writing rules that didn't
really reflect the reality ofthe industry.
And I think that's some of whatwe're seeing now is that you
know, policies that could havethe potential shut down the very
(09:19):
systems that are keeping thesematerials in circulation.
And so that really, I think, waskind of what underlined the
urgency for me, you know, thatthat you really need to have
smart policy that supportsindustries like this that are
already doing the good work andhave the expertise to manage
these materials.
(09:39):
And I want to be a part of that,yeah, you know, translating that
again to the public policymakers that are making these
decisions.
SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
Right.
And in in your role working withpolicy, it's it's slow moving,
I'm sure.
And you did kind of touch on it.
I just want to know what keepsyou motivated, you know, in the
middle of slow-moving policyenvironments.
You gave a pretty goodbackground.
But if you have any otherexperiences that you wanted to
share that kind of uh, you know,keeps you motivated doing what
(10:08):
you do.
SPEAKER_02 (10:09):
Yeah, I think that like remembering why the work
matters, you know, policy canand and typically is painfully
slow.
Uh in fact, one time I I workedon regulation.
I was just talking about thiswith some friends.
I worked on a regulation at theUS Environmental Protection
Agency for about 10 yearsmyself.
But when it started, I think Iwas seven years old.
(10:31):
It had been under developmentfor 30 years.
So that gives you an idea ofjust how slowly some of this
policy can move.
But then at other times, youalso do have policies that move
very quickly.
Here in the US, it tends to bemore at the state and local
level.
And you see that real-worldimpact of getting it right or
(10:53):
what could happen if you get itwrong.
And so again, you know, when arule change happens that either
helps legitimate recycl keepthese materials in circulation
or potentially threatens it, youknow, as you can imagine, that
that keeps keeps you prettymotivated to make sure that you
keep things moving in, not onlymoving, but moving in the right
(11:16):
direction.
SPEAKER_00 (11:17):
Right.
So it just, you know, thinkingof, you know, staying in, you
know, local policies, but itcould even go to the federal
pol, you know, federal level aswell.
I just didn't want to know ifthere was any, you know, recent
legislation or it could be pastlegislation or regulatory wins
that you've had in the past orrecently that kind of had the
(11:38):
most impact that people mightnot know about because it is a
lot of behind-the-scenes workthat I'm sure you're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (11:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think over in veryrecently, over the past year or
two, Smart has seen some prettysignificant policy and
regulatory wins that that willdirectly impact our members.
One of the most significant hasbeen our ongoing engagement and
shaping state-level extendedproducer responsibility
(12:07):
legislation or EPR legislationfor textiles.
And I'm not sure if you'refamiliar with EPR, but EPR is a
public policy that requiresproducers to take responsibility
for essentially recovering andreclaiming and recycling and
repurposing the products thatthey produce at the end of their
(12:28):
life, consumer life.
And so we've been working onlegislation that's being
considered, well, one thatactually passed in California in
2024, but also upcominglegislation in Washington and
New York.
And through that advocacy thatwe've been doing, Smart has
ensured that reuse is not onlyrecognized but prioritized as a
(12:52):
key element of these efforts,again, to reclaim and divert
these materials from landfills.
And in so doing, we've reallymade it such that we can
safeguard our industry's abilityto be able to apply the
longstanding expertise andoperational know-how that we
have to continue to build thattruly effective circular value
(13:16):
chain.
And we've also played a pivotalrole in discussions related to
international trade, whichcontinue to move on right now
with the administration beingvery focused on ensuring
reciprocity, you know, from forthe United States and various
trade deals.
We have been working with the USgovernment to seek opportunities
(13:39):
to expand market access tovarious countries that have
traditionally closed off theirmarkets to our members'
materials.
And so I think we're seeing somemovement on that.
And I would consider that a bigsuccess as well.
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
No, that's great.
It's nice hearing about some ofthe successes in policies,
especially with, you know,sometimes it's common to hear a
lot of bad in policy, but itit's it's refreshing when you
you get to talk about that aboutthe good, you know, whatever
level that's on.
SPEAKER_04 (14:10):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
And of course, SMART has supported the Americas Act.
I I just want you to kind ofexplain, you know, the Americas
Act and SMART's role in that,and of course, your role in
advancing that support in otherprograms.
SPEAKER_02 (14:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
For for listeners who probablyaren't aware, the Americas Act
was actually a much larger billfocused on enhancing US
competitiveness, particularlywith respect to China, and also
enhancing competitiveness of theAmericas overall.
It's it's kind of a regionalstrategy to fortify this part of
(14:49):
the world against uh what Ithink is perceived as the threat
of China.
And so it's it's a much large,it's a large bill with a lot of
moving pieces in order toaccomplish that.
But there was a section of thebill that specifically calls for
investment and tax incentives tostrengthen the textile reuse and
(15:11):
recycling infrastructure.
So the work that our industrydoes here in the United States.
And I think the thinking behindthat was that you know, our
industry is a great opportunityto help boost that US
competitiveness, create jobs,and expand sustainable
manufacturing capacity.
(15:31):
And so we we were not the leadon that bill.
There was actually another tradeassociation, the American
Circular Textiles Group, whichtook the lead on getting that
bill introduced, but they're anallied organization of ours, and
that we share some of the samegoals.
And so as soon as we learnedabout the bill's introduction,
(15:52):
uh, we were all over it.
And you know, they stated oursupport publicly in press
releases and and various mediaengagements and pretty much any
chance that that we could get.
Now, like so much legislation onCapitol Hill, it stalled because
as we know, things it could bedifficult to get things through
(16:13):
in Congress these days.
But I think for us, we were justreally excited to see you know
our industry being discussed atthis level and being recognized
for the the positive impacts,you know, that that we make in
in all of these different areas.
So again, it it was something wewere more than happy to support.
SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
Absolutely.
And when you're you know dealingwith you know these big things
like the Americas Act or at thestate level, like California's
textile EPR rollout, you touchedon a little bit.
How do you ensure that industryvoices are effectively
represented at every policytable, uh, despite the level,
whether it's local, state, oreven federal?
SPEAKER_02 (16:54):
Yeah, you know, I think I mean it does depend on
uh each level of government.
And then within the stategovernments, it's kind of each
state has their own personality.
Um generally speaking, you know,we do whatever we can if there
is a formal stakeholder process,like something that we saw in
Washington state and now areseeing, or I'm sorry, in
(17:15):
California and now are seeing inWashington state, the
legislators that introducedthese EPR measures made a real
effort to have a formal processto bring together stakeholders
that so that we could all weighin.
So, you know, as soon as wecatch wind of that kind of
activity, we we jump in and getinvolved.
(17:36):
But even in the absence of that,I think it's really just staying
on top of these measures whenthey come up, you know,
identifying, you know, who theproponents are, who the bill
author is, and then just kind ofgetting in there and introducing
ourselves.
And, you know, whether that'sthrough face-to-face meetings,
you know, phone calls, Zoommeetings, written submissions,
(17:58):
whatever it is, I think the ideais just to make that connection,
you know, with the people thatare going to be deciding, you
know, these kinds of measuresand just helping them understand
who our industry is and you knowwhat we do and the positive
contributions we make.
And so far, you know, throughoutmy career, really, it's never
(18:19):
been a heavy-handed approach.
It's it's usually focused onsimply education and how can we
be of service and how can we,you know, provide the
information that you need tomake sure that the policies that
you're working to adopt are wellfounded, grounded in evidence,
you know, and and kind of allthe things you you hope to see
(18:39):
when you're developing policy.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
Right.
And when you're approaching thatin, you know, speaking with all
these people, going to thepolicy table, what kind of what
sort of policy innovations,let's say, like reuse first
language and EPR, do you do yousee as transformative when
you're going about yourday-to-day with these policies?
SPEAKER_02 (19:00):
You know, I think that a lot of the
transformational work right nowis going on in kind of the
recognition that from ourindustry's perspective and and
just in general when you'remanaging these kinds of
materials at end of life, thatreuse is sits at the top of the
waste hierarchy.
And so kind of recognizing thatthat priority is there and
(19:25):
should continue to be there inall of these processes.
So, you know, kind of workingwith policymakers to help them
understand that that's where themost positive impact is.
But then beyond that, you know,working with policymakers to
understand that, you know, oncethose materials no longer have
the capacity to either be reusedor repurposed in some way,
(19:49):
helping them understand thatthere may be, you know, other
ways to recycle these materialsand helping them figure out ways
to support those companies thatare, you know, getting involved
and kind of putting their neckson the line in order to develop
these technologies.
And so, you know, again, I thinkit's it's kind of helping the
(20:11):
policymakers understand thatthis isn't really just about
kind of managing the waste atthe end of life and and seeing
to it that it doesn't go tolandfills, but also supporting
the companies across the boardthat are doing that work to make
it happen.
Because again, these arecompanies that you know are
investing tremendous time andresources and capital in order
(20:32):
to do the right thing to managethese materials.
And there are also companiesthat, quite frankly, are
economic engines here, you know,in the United States and as I
mentioned abroad.
SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
How is SMART preparing members for shifting
to that global trade and theroles that surround the
secondary textiles?
SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
You know, I think that we do everything we can to
just really take the complexpolicy initiatives that are
coming out, and like I said atkind of the outset of our
discussion, to translate theminto they can understand, you
know, because I think a lot ofpolicy language can be pretty
(21:15):
arcane, and you really kind ofhave to search for what the main
point is.
And so I think kind of the firststep from our side in order to
prepare them is to justtranslate what it is that we're
seeing.
And then there's kind of anelement of prognostication that
goes along with that.
You know, you have to kind ofthink about, and some of this is
(21:35):
just based on experience.
Okay, if X happens, then Yhappens, Z is probably the
outcome.
And so, you know, getting ourmembers ready for any kind of
realities that are coming up isanother piece of it, you know,
trying to anticipate what'snext.
And then I think, you know,pointing them in the direction
of similar policy models thatmay have been enacted, impacting
(21:58):
other industries.
You know, you can learn a lotfrom those kinds of past
activities and see how it mightshape the future.
So, you know, I think again,it's a combination of all of
those things, and that may be inyou know, policy briefs, it's
newsletters, it's webinars, it'sface-to-face meetings, it's
(22:19):
individual calls.
You know, I I look at myselfagain, I know I said this at the
beginning, but kind of atranslator and just a resource
to help people understand, youknow, what's going on and and
what it might mean for theirbusiness.
SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's an important, it's animportant role that you play.
And I and I don't want you toundersell it, but you know, it's
a significant thing that you doand beneficial to everybody that
that you're working with,whether that's on the national
scale or even the internationalscale.
SPEAKER_03 (22:51):
Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
So what what are there any international
collaborations or or policiesthat are emerging that you could
talk about that are kind ofreshaping that sector?
SPEAKER_02 (23:02):
I think right now, I mean, in terms of collaboration,
I think the policy frameworksthat we're seeing, we're seeing
international forces right nowkind of working to reshape the
sector through things likeextended producer
responsibility.
It's not going on just here inthe United States, it's also
happening all throughout Europeand places like Chile and Kenya
(23:26):
as well and Canada.
So EPR is a big one.
But there are also somediscussions going on right now
at the United Nations levelwhere they're looking at kind of
definitions of what textilematerials would be regarded as
reusable and those that theymight classify as waste.
And these might sound sort oftechnical in nature, but they do
(23:50):
have the potentially real-worldconsequences.
Because if these materials areinappropriately misclassified by
the United Nations, then youhave the potential for these
materials to become subject toexport restrictions or bans when
in fact these materials areintended for legitimate reuse
(24:14):
and recycling.
And that can, of course, jam upall of these circular trade
flows that are going to benecessary in order to make these
circular policies like EPR, youknow, work.
But then on top of it, it'sthis, and this is the one that
honestly keeps me up at night.
It's the potential for impactingthe livelihoods of millions of
(24:36):
people, again, through placeslike Africa and Central America
and Asia.
It's really alarming that someof these decisions are being
made.
I think they're verywell-meaning, but maybe not
always well informed or youknow, maybe a little bit
misinformed by misinformation,and they have the potential to
impact so many millions of livesin a negative way.
(25:00):
So, you know, I think that's toyour broader question, you know,
what what policy frameworks areemerging that could reshape the
sector?
You know, I'm kind of looking atit the perspective of as a
challenge, but I think also theopportunity when I look at
something like the Americas Act,there is still opportunity here
that we could seize to, youknow, enhance the recognition of
(25:23):
this industry, to make sure thatall of these pieces of the
larger equation are comingtogether.
You know, so there's there's alot of positive stuff too.
I don't I don't want to make itall sound scary and think in
that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Hey, when we're talking about this kind of
stuff, it it is scary, but itit's refreshing to to hear that
there are solutions or there aresome positives.
So you really can't talk aboutthose positives without talking
about those challenges.
SPEAKER_01 (25:50):
You're so right.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (25:52):
And you know, just you know, speaking more more on
those challenges on theproduction side of things.
What are some of the mostpressing operational challenges
that your members uh seem toface in complying with these new
textile laws or future textilelaws or even in the past?
SPEAKER_02 (26:10):
You know, I think that operationally, again, and
and I don't want to be toorepetitive on say there's a lot
of question at this point intime because EPR in the United
States at least is entirely newfor textiles.
I think I mentioned earlier thatthere have been, you know, a
number of EPR programs that havebeen applied to other product
(26:31):
categories.
So, but the textile policy forEPR is totally new in the United
States.
California was the first stateto pass it.
So I think operationally, one ofthe challenges that they might
have is just simply not knowinghow it's gonna all shake out at
the end, you know.
And I've been with public policypeople like myself, but in other
(26:55):
roles in the sector, you know,in industry panels and even in
private conversations where, youknow, someone will ask, how do
you think it's gonna impact theindustry?
And none of us can answer thatbecause there's no precedent
here, you know, in the UnitedStates.
It's truly novel legislation.
So I think that uncertainty, asI'm sure you know, in any kind
(27:18):
of business uncertainty, can bea real operational challenge.
And then I think also as part ofthe EPR framework overall,
there's gonna be a lot ofreporting that needs to happen.
You know, the companies thatproduce these materials are
ultimately responsible for,again, kind of figuring out how
to recover these materials andfund those activities.
(27:41):
But at the end of the day, Ithink, you know, they're gonna
be all the different playerslike our industry that are
helping them to accomplish that,that are gonna have to provide,
you know, the data andinformation about where these
materials are going, you know,how they're being reused, what
their composition is.
And I think our industry isstill figuring out the best and
(28:03):
most efficient way tocommunicate that information,
with also without knowing whatspecific information they're
going to need.
So it all kind of ties back intothat theme of uncertainty.
But, you know, again, one of thethings I will say about working
with this industry under Smartis they are really scrappy and
(28:24):
adaptable.
I've just seen it throughout theyears.
So I do think they'll be able toadapt, but it can just be a
little bit uncomfortable attimes.
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
Yeah.
And, you know, just that kind ofleads in into my next question.
Just with some systems liketracking reuse or reporting
metrics.
How are you helping membersimplement those practical
systems when it comes to policygoals?
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Yeah, you know, I think that at this point in
time, it really is still an areawhere ever everyone is still
learning.
SPEAKER_02 (28:55):
Like I said, you know, technical EPR is so new
here.
So, you know, we are looking atwhat other industries have done
under earlier EPR laws and othersectors.
So again, that's things likepackaging and electronics and
paint, and how those you knowindustries have gotten involved
(29:15):
in tracking and reporting.
And we're also looking at what'sunfolded in other countries that
are ahead of us on this.
France has had a textile EPRprogram since 2007.
So I have no doubt there's youknow good learning there.
And you know, that'll just meanlike kind of starting at the
basics, identifying the datathat they already collect, then
(29:38):
identifying, you know, what gapsthey might have, and then doing
that investigation into kind ofwhat kind of reporting and
tracking tools and technologiesare out there to help them
consolidate you know that thatinformation into a singular
package that can be presented tothe powers that be.
So, you know, SMART will be, Ithink doing that work with our
(30:02):
members at the same time andit'll be probably a
bi-directional effort where youknow they're sharing information
with us and and we're going outand doing some of that research
and sharing it back with themand then coming up with what
those best options are.
So it's definitely it's still abit of a moving target, I think
is is probably the bottom linehere.
But you know I I think it's aprocess that will evolve into
(30:25):
something more concrete.
SPEAKER_00 (30:27):
Sure.
And then and I'm sure it'llalways be a moving target.
No matter how much progress youmake some make I'm sure
something will always come upand and you know you'll you'll
have to adjust and and you knowevery time every single time so
when it comes to policy successhow do you measure that whether
(30:48):
it's the amount of urden memberadoption or or infrastructure
growth.
SPEAKER_02 (30:53):
You know I think it's kind of based more on I or
at least it starts with theoutcomes.
So you know from our industry'sperspective specifically that
means you know more garments andhousehold textiles and other
textiles getting that second andthird life or maybe fourth life
like I mentioned fewer headed tothe landfill I think that some
(31:17):
of it from smart's perspectiveso the association's perspective
as a representative of thebroader industry that is that
growing momentum that we'reseeing with things like
government support.
So that's you know grants andtax incentives and other funding
opportunities, but also kind ofthe policymakers' willingness to
(31:41):
hear what we have to say and andrecognize you know again the
contributions that we're making.
And you know I think also we'repolicymakers and the public
really understand that the workthat our members are doing, this
textile reuse and recycling istruly essential.
(32:01):
And what happens then is thatends up being reflected in the
policies that are developed andkind of the narrative that that
surrounds the industry.
So there are multiple layers toit but I I think kind of the
emphasis is that overallrecognition of what the industry
(32:21):
is doing and kind of how thatplays out in these different
segments.
SPEAKER_00 (32:26):
Well I hope there's there's a lot of success coming
your way coming smart's way andso that's kind of what leads me
into my next thing what what isnext?
What's on the horizon fortextile policy whether that's
the federal or state levels youknow whatever level that you
want to talk about and you knowsome upcoming policies or bills
that are kind of most crucialthat you think people should
(32:47):
keep an eye on.
SPEAKER_02 (32:48):
Yeah I think that right now the the thing that
we're most engaged on here inthe US is is these EPR measures
like I said.
So California is still workingto implement the law that it
passed and that will unfold overthe next several years through
its regulatory process.
And then as I mentioned stateslike Washington and New York are
(33:12):
advancing their own legislationon this subject matter.
And typically you know once thatkind of state activity starts to
pick up steam other states moveforward in adopting it too.
So I think the state activity isis something you know that focus
on EPR at the state level issomething we're very focused on.
I think it'll be interesting tosee that you know as that state
(33:35):
activity and other internationalactivity picks up, you know,
whether whether the federalgovernment starts to get
involved again we we talkedabout Congress's issues but you
know there are other levelswithin the federal government
and agencies that you know maytake an interest in this and
already are showing signs indoing so.
You know the other activitiesthat I mentioned earlier this
(33:58):
work that's going on at theUnited Nations level and and
some of the global activitiesyou know that are well intended
but have the potential to beproblematic, those are going to
be things that we're working on.
And I would only expect thatthis global dialogue is going to
grow and continue.
So I think kind of making surethat we're engaged and doing
(34:20):
that same kind of educationalwork that we've been doing here,
you know, in the United Statesat a more micro level and
expanding that to a more macrolevel and and we're getting some
traction on that and you knowI'm I'm excited to be a part of
that work again we we kind offinally have this platform to to
share the the work that we'redoing and to make this positive
(34:44):
difference in a real way andagain at all levels of
government that that's notsomething that happens all the
time.
So it's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
And how can other people get excited like industry
players or listeners how canthey contribute to policy
development whether that's as anadvocate or or a collaborator?
SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
Well you know I I think that the the first thing
for anybody that's interested inlearning more about smart as an
organization, you know, I wouldinvite them to go to our website
smartasn.org and you know youcan learn a lot about the
industry and the background andsome of these policy topics.
And then I think that you knowfor those that are just kind of
(35:25):
interested in staying up onthese topics overall, you know,
pay attention to what's you knowcoming out of your local and
state governments in particularkeep an eye on legislation you
know that's being discussedagain as it relates to kind of
addressing these issues relatedto textiles.
And you know the the great thingabout the public policy process,
(35:48):
you know, kind of quote unquotelobbying and advocacy oftentimes
gets a bad name, but it's reallypart of our constitutionally
protective process and abilityto engage our government and
express our position on thesetopics.
And so it's not just limited togroups like Smart, it's limited
to anybody you know who is aconstituent of these policy
(36:12):
makers.
And so you know I would suggestthat if they have an interest in
this, you know, again they canreach out to groups like us to
learn more or maybe if they'rein the industry, you know, join
our group to have thatcollective power.
But also you know as aconstituent they can do their
own outreach as well.
So I think a lot of it is reallyjust staying informed.
(36:33):
And the more that you getengaged the more you learn I
mean we're all kind of learningas we go because like I said
it's relatively new here in theUnited States.
And so the nice thing about thatis you know you're not behind
the eight ball.
You know we're kind of alllearning at the same pace and
and that's a good place to be.
SPEAKER_00 (36:51):
Yeah we're all in this together right now we're
all going at the the same pacelearning you know something new
and I definitely learned learneda lot sitting down here and and
speaking with you and I hope thelisteners also learned learned
something new.
So I just want to thank youagain for joining us.
SPEAKER_02 (37:06):
Yes absolutely thank you so much I I really enjoyed
talking with you you asked greatquestions and and I appreciate
your interest in this yeahabsolutely it's it's a big part
of us you know we we lovesustainability anything second
life or third life fourth lifelike you said you know when it
comes to textiles and materialsis there is there anything that
uh you might want to add beforewe wrap things up no I I I mean
(37:29):
again I I would invite people tovisit the smart website again
that's smartasn.org I'm also onLinkedIn people should feel free
to connect with me there and ofcourse smart is too and again
that's another way you knowsocial media is such a good way
to kind of stay on top of thekey developments.
We're really you know makingsure that we pump that out to
(37:51):
the broader public.
But I think you can again one ofthe things that I really pride
myself on doing for SMART ismaking this information easy to
understand for people.
And so I think people can againget engaged get informed and you
know feel free to start with usas a resource and and build on
it from there.
But you know the more voices wehave in participating in this
(38:14):
process the more that we alllearn and benefit from it.
So you know I I know that I havekind of a big tent approach and
I know some of the other peoplethat represent you know other
segments of this larger industryvalue chain are very interested
in hearing from other people'svoices too.
So it's really kind ofconstructive and exciting topic
(38:37):
of policy to be involved inright now.
SPEAKER_00 (38:39):
Yeah absolutely and we look forward to kind of
following along as well andJessica we know you're you're a
busy person so we really doappreciate your time with us.
SPEAKER_02 (38:48):
Thank you so much again I I really appreciate your
interest and and taking the timeto have this conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (38:54):
Our pleasure our pleasure well thank you again
Jessica and thank you everyonefor listening that's all the
time we have we'll see you nexttime thanks for listening to
this episode of the Four Worldspodcast.
Until next time you can catch upon the latest innovations
shaping our world attomorrow'sworldtoday dot com
follow us on Facebook andInstagram and be sure to
(39:16):
subscribe to our YouTube channel
Welcome to the Four Worlds Podcast from Tomorrow's
World Today.
We're diving into the latest intech, science, and
sustainability, from nature'smysteries in the world of
inspiration to the hands-oncrafts of creation, the bold
breakthroughs of innovation, andthe scaled-up wonders of
production.
This is your ticket to thestories shaping tomorrow.
(00:23):
Welcome back, everyone, toanother episode of the Four
Worlds Podcast.
On today's episode, we haveJessica Franken, the Director of
Government Affairs at SecondaryMaterials in Recycled Textiles
Association, SMART for short.
SMART promotes the reuse andrecycling of textiles to drive a
more sustainable and circulareconomy.
(00:45):
Jessica, welcome to the show andthank you so much for joining
us.
SPEAKER_01 (00:48):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
It's really great to be here,and I'm excited to be able to
talk with you.
SPEAKER_00 (00:54):
No, we really appreciate you taking your time.
And before we really get intothings about what you do, you
know, kind of why you're heretoday, give us a little
background on SMART and a littlebit about your role with them.
SPEAKER_02 (01:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I handle direct, I'm thedirector of government affairs
for SMART, which, as you said,is the Secondary Materials and
Recycled Textiles Association.
And our trade associationrepresents some 200 businesses
here in the United States, inNorth America, and throughout
the world that are involved inbasically providing the reverse
(01:31):
logistics for the textile andapparel sector.
So these are companies that areinvolved in reusing and
recycling textiles, eitherpre-consumer, you know,
industrial materials that areleft over during the industrial
manufacturing process, oroftentimes, or probably most
often, sourced post-consumer.
(01:52):
So these are materials that aconsumer has used and no longer
is finding them useful.
And so what our industry does iswe capture those materials and
then see to it that they areeither reused, recycled, or
repurposed in some way.
And so that includes sourcingmaterials from institutional
(02:12):
facilities like hospitals andschools or from charitable
organizations like Goodwill andSalvation Army, who maybe aren't
able to sell all of theirmaterials in store.
And so that gives them theopportunity to sell them and
bring in more money for theircharitable activities.
And a lot of times thesematerials are either exported
(02:34):
or, as I mentioned, mayberepurposed if they're not
suitable for export to in thingslike industrial wiping cloths or
recycled into things likeinsulation and carpet padding.
So really, this industry isdoing everything that it can to
find a home for these materialsso that they don't go to
landfill.
(02:55):
And it's industry, it's kind of,I think, technically been around
for many hundreds of years, butour industry group has been
around since 1932.
So, so nearly a hundred years.
And and everybody probably getstired of me saying it, but I do
like to mention the taglinesmart was green before green was
smart.
Um we were doing this kind ofwork all along.
SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
So you're really kind of driving this industry
that's that's really trendingforward, you know, with an
emphasis on sustainability, ofcourse.
Now, where does your role comein?
And and you know, what do youkind of do for this initiative?
SPEAKER_02 (03:30):
Sure.
So as the director of governmentaffairs, I'm really the liaison
between the industry and all ofour different member companies
that participate in theorganization and public policy
makers.
And that's at the local level,state level, federal level, and
uh more recently at theinternational level.
And so basically I'm thatintermediary, and a lot of the
(03:54):
work that I do is from the sideof our industry.
I take what can be very complexpolicy activities and try to
distill them into clear, easy tounderstand messages so that our
members can either be aware oryou know act on their own behalf
if they need to.
And in the other direction, Ialso serve as the representative
(04:16):
of the industry beforepolicymakers.
So, you know, I help themunderstand the realities of how
the industry works and theimpacts that a particular policy
might have.
So again, uh I'm kind of thatin-between that intermediary.
I like to say that I speak bothof the languages and and help
translate.
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
And again, in an industry like that, that's a
it's a really important job tohave, especially just with the
way the industry is is trending.
So I I want to know what whatinspired you to lead government
affairs, get into this role uhspecifically in the textile
reuse and recycling.
Is this a an industry that youdo deeply care about?
(04:56):
Because I'm sure that'simportant to have, especially
what you're doing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:59):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I I didn't set out to workin textile reuse and recycling.
I feel like it kind of found me.
My background is in publicpolicy and government affairs
work, but I've always been drawnto issues that really sit at the
intersection of commerce andalso the environment and also
social good.
(05:20):
And, you know, from myperspective, when you have kind
of all of those things comingtogether, it's that win-win-win
in policy.
And I began working with Smartin 2007 when I was doing work
for what is called a tradeassociation management firm, but
you know, a firm that representsindustry groups like SMART.
(05:41):
Um, and in doing that work, Ireally quickly realized that
this industry is touching allthree of those areas, you know,
again, commerce, environment,and social good.
And what I saw in doing thiswork was that textile reuse and
recycling is really one of themost tangible examples of
circularity in action, again,because we all touch these
(06:03):
textile and apparel materials ona daily basis throughout the
world, um, but also because thecompanies that I represent these
materials that might otherwiseend up in landfills and they
give them a new life.
And again, that's through theresale and repurposing and
recycling that I mentioned.
So, you know, I think what'sinspired me to stay in this
(06:25):
field is again all of thosepositive impacts that are being
made just as a course of theirday-to-day operations.
Um, but then also that kind ofthe human and economic impact
that the industry is making.
I don't think I touched uponthis earlier, but I did
reference the fact that a lot ofthese materials are exported to
(06:46):
countries outside of the UnitedStates.
And that's because there isreally great demand for quality
secondhand apparel in a numberof developing nations across the
world, because these productsprovide, you know, again, good
quality, affordable apparel topeople that otherwise might not
be able to afford them.
(07:06):
And it also creates livelihoodssurrounding their own supply
chains in their countries interms of like millions of jobs
per country.
And so, you know, again, it'sthat intersection of really
positive environmental impact,positive economic impact, and
also, you know, positive socialimpact, you know, on our side
(07:29):
and theirs.
SPEAKER_00 (07:30):
Right.
No, that's great.
You would, you know, um comingup on almost 20 years with
Smart, it's it's easy to seethose, all that positive stuff
that uh the company has beenable to do, that you've been
able to do in your role.
But let's take it back, youknow, it could be 2007 or or
prior to that, some early careermoments that really confirmed
(07:50):
the urgency of circular policywork for you.
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
Yeah, it really was early on, like you said.
And, you know, when I firststarted working with Smart,
probably around that 2007, 2008time frame, I had the
opportunity to visit one of ourcompany members of facilities in
Baltimore, Maryland.
And while I was there, you know,I'd heard about what was going
(08:14):
on in the industry, but to seeit is something entirely
different.
And I found myself surrounded bythis really, you know, pretty
elaborate operation andmountains of textiles and
clothing.
And each one of these items wasbeing sorted by individuals that
have expertise in order to finda way for this material that
(08:35):
otherwise might go to landfillto have a second life.
And what struck me wasn't thevolume of the materials,
although that was significant,but really the value in what
these materials mean and youknow, in what others might call
waste.
And the fact that, you know,again, there's this whole
industry going on behind thescenes that's kind of quietly
(08:57):
doing this reclamation andrecovery work.
And then I think at the sametime, though, I was aware of the
fact that policymakers at timeswere writing rules that didn't
really reflect the reality ofthe industry.
And I think that's some of whatwe're seeing now is that you
know, policies that could havethe potential shut down the very
(09:19):
systems that are keeping thesematerials in circulation.
And so that really, I think, waskind of what underlined the
urgency for me, you know, thatthat you really need to have
smart policy that supportsindustries like this that are
already doing the good work andhave the expertise to manage
these materials.
(09:39):
And I want to be a part of that,yeah, you know, translating that
again to the public policymakers that are making these
decisions.
SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
Right.
And in in your role working withpolicy, it's it's slow moving,
I'm sure.
And you did kind of touch on it.
I just want to know what keepsyou motivated, you know, in the
middle of slow-moving policyenvironments.
You gave a pretty goodbackground.
But if you have any otherexperiences that you wanted to
share that kind of uh, you know,keeps you motivated doing what
(10:08):
you do.
SPEAKER_02 (10:09):
Yeah, I think that like remembering why the work
matters, you know, policy canand and typically is painfully
slow.
Uh in fact, one time I I workedon regulation.
I was just talking about thiswith some friends.
I worked on a regulation at theUS Environmental Protection
Agency for about 10 yearsmyself.
But when it started, I think Iwas seven years old.
(10:31):
It had been under developmentfor 30 years.
So that gives you an idea ofjust how slowly some of this
policy can move.
But then at other times, youalso do have policies that move
very quickly.
Here in the US, it tends to bemore at the state and local
level.
And you see that real-worldimpact of getting it right or
(10:53):
what could happen if you get itwrong.
And so again, you know, when arule change happens that either
helps legitimate recycl keepthese materials in circulation
or potentially threatens it, youknow, as you can imagine, that
that keeps keeps you prettymotivated to make sure that you
keep things moving in, not onlymoving, but moving in the right
(11:16):
direction.
SPEAKER_00 (11:17):
Right.
So it just, you know, thinkingof, you know, staying in, you
know, local policies, but itcould even go to the federal
pol, you know, federal level aswell.
I just didn't want to know ifthere was any, you know, recent
legislation or it could be pastlegislation or regulatory wins
that you've had in the past orrecently that kind of had the
(11:38):
most impact that people mightnot know about because it is a
lot of behind-the-scenes workthat I'm sure you're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (11:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think over in veryrecently, over the past year or
two, Smart has seen some prettysignificant policy and
regulatory wins that that willdirectly impact our members.
One of the most significant hasbeen our ongoing engagement and
shaping state-level extendedproducer responsibility
(12:07):
legislation or EPR legislationfor textiles.
And I'm not sure if you'refamiliar with EPR, but EPR is a
public policy that requiresproducers to take responsibility
for essentially recovering andreclaiming and recycling and
repurposing the products thatthey produce at the end of their
(12:28):
life, consumer life.
And so we've been working onlegislation that's being
considered, well, one thatactually passed in California in
2024, but also upcominglegislation in Washington and
New York.
And through that advocacy thatwe've been doing, Smart has
ensured that reuse is not onlyrecognized but prioritized as a
(12:52):
key element of these efforts,again, to reclaim and divert
these materials from landfills.
And in so doing, we've reallymade it such that we can
safeguard our industry's abilityto be able to apply the
longstanding expertise andoperational know-how that we
have to continue to build thattruly effective circular value
(13:16):
chain.
And we've also played a pivotalrole in discussions related to
international trade, whichcontinue to move on right now
with the administration beingvery focused on ensuring
reciprocity, you know, from forthe United States and various
trade deals.
We have been working with the USgovernment to seek opportunities
(13:39):
to expand market access tovarious countries that have
traditionally closed off theirmarkets to our members'
materials.
And so I think we're seeing somemovement on that.
And I would consider that a bigsuccess as well.
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
No, that's great.
It's nice hearing about some ofthe successes in policies,
especially with, you know,sometimes it's common to hear a
lot of bad in policy, but itit's it's refreshing when you
you get to talk about that aboutthe good, you know, whatever
level that's on.
SPEAKER_04 (14:10):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
And of course, SMART has supported the Americas Act.
I I just want you to kind ofexplain, you know, the Americas
Act and SMART's role in that,and of course, your role in
advancing that support in otherprograms.
SPEAKER_02 (14:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
For for listeners who probablyaren't aware, the Americas Act
was actually a much larger billfocused on enhancing US
competitiveness, particularlywith respect to China, and also
enhancing competitiveness of theAmericas overall.
It's it's kind of a regionalstrategy to fortify this part of
(14:49):
the world against uh what Ithink is perceived as the threat
of China.
And so it's it's a much large,it's a large bill with a lot of
moving pieces in order toaccomplish that.
But there was a section of thebill that specifically calls for
investment and tax incentives tostrengthen the textile reuse and
(15:11):
recycling infrastructure.
So the work that our industrydoes here in the United States.
And I think the thinking behindthat was that you know, our
industry is a great opportunityto help boost that US
competitiveness, create jobs,and expand sustainable
manufacturing capacity.
(15:31):
And so we we were not the leadon that bill.
There was actually another tradeassociation, the American
Circular Textiles Group, whichtook the lead on getting that
bill introduced, but they're anallied organization of ours, and
that we share some of the samegoals.
And so as soon as we learnedabout the bill's introduction,
(15:52):
uh, we were all over it.
And you know, they stated oursupport publicly in press
releases and and various mediaengagements and pretty much any
chance that that we could get.
Now, like so much legislation onCapitol Hill, it stalled because
as we know, things it could bedifficult to get things through
(16:13):
in Congress these days.
But I think for us, we were justreally excited to see you know
our industry being discussed atthis level and being recognized
for the the positive impacts,you know, that that we make in
in all of these different areas.
So again, it it was something wewere more than happy to support.
SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
Absolutely.
And when you're you know dealingwith you know these big things
like the Americas Act or at thestate level, like California's
textile EPR rollout, you touchedon a little bit.
How do you ensure that industryvoices are effectively
represented at every policytable, uh, despite the level,
whether it's local, state, oreven federal?
SPEAKER_02 (16:54):
Yeah, you know, I think I mean it does depend on
uh each level of government.
And then within the stategovernments, it's kind of each
state has their own personality.
Um generally speaking, you know,we do whatever we can if there
is a formal stakeholder process,like something that we saw in
Washington state and now areseeing, or I'm sorry, in
(17:15):
California and now are seeing inWashington state, the
legislators that introducedthese EPR measures made a real
effort to have a formal processto bring together stakeholders
that so that we could all weighin.
So, you know, as soon as wecatch wind of that kind of
activity, we we jump in and getinvolved.
(17:36):
But even in the absence of that,I think it's really just staying
on top of these measures whenthey come up, you know,
identifying, you know, who theproponents are, who the bill
author is, and then just kind ofgetting in there and introducing
ourselves.
And, you know, whether that'sthrough face-to-face meetings,
you know, phone calls, Zoommeetings, written submissions,
(17:58):
whatever it is, I think the ideais just to make that connection,
you know, with the people thatare going to be deciding, you
know, these kinds of measuresand just helping them understand
who our industry is and you knowwhat we do and the positive
contributions we make.
And so far, you know, throughoutmy career, really, it's never
(18:19):
been a heavy-handed approach.
It's it's usually focused onsimply education and how can we
be of service and how can we,you know, provide the
information that you need tomake sure that the policies that
you're working to adopt are wellfounded, grounded in evidence,
you know, and and kind of allthe things you you hope to see
(18:39):
when you're developing policy.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
Right.
And when you're approaching thatin, you know, speaking with all
these people, going to thepolicy table, what kind of what
sort of policy innovations,let's say, like reuse first
language and EPR, do you do yousee as transformative when
you're going about yourday-to-day with these policies?
SPEAKER_02 (19:00):
You know, I think that a lot of the
transformational work right nowis going on in kind of the
recognition that from ourindustry's perspective and and
just in general when you'remanaging these kinds of
materials at end of life, thatreuse is sits at the top of the
waste hierarchy.
And so kind of recognizing thatthat priority is there and
(19:25):
should continue to be there inall of these processes.
So, you know, kind of workingwith policymakers to help them
understand that that's where themost positive impact is.
But then beyond that, you know,working with policymakers to
understand that, you know, oncethose materials no longer have
the capacity to either be reusedor repurposed in some way,
(19:49):
helping them understand thatthere may be, you know, other
ways to recycle these materialsand helping them figure out ways
to support those companies thatare, you know, getting involved
and kind of putting their neckson the line in order to develop
these technologies.
And so, you know, again, I thinkit's it's kind of helping the
(20:11):
policymakers understand thatthis isn't really just about
kind of managing the waste atthe end of life and and seeing
to it that it doesn't go tolandfills, but also supporting
the companies across the boardthat are doing that work to make
it happen.
Because again, these arecompanies that you know are
investing tremendous time andresources and capital in order
(20:32):
to do the right thing to managethese materials.
And there are also companiesthat, quite frankly, are
economic engines here, you know,in the United States and as I
mentioned abroad.
SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
How is SMART preparing members for shifting
to that global trade and theroles that surround the
secondary textiles?
SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
You know, I think that we do everything we can to
just really take the complexpolicy initiatives that are
coming out, and like I said atkind of the outset of our
discussion, to translate theminto they can understand, you
know, because I think a lot ofpolicy language can be pretty
(21:15):
arcane, and you really kind ofhave to search for what the main
point is.
And so I think kind of the firststep from our side in order to
prepare them is to justtranslate what it is that we're
seeing.
And then there's kind of anelement of prognostication that
goes along with that.
You know, you have to kind ofthink about, and some of this is
(21:35):
just based on experience.
Okay, if X happens, then Yhappens, Z is probably the
outcome.
And so, you know, getting ourmembers ready for any kind of
realities that are coming up isanother piece of it, you know,
trying to anticipate what'snext.
And then I think, you know,pointing them in the direction
of similar policy models thatmay have been enacted, impacting
(21:58):
other industries.
You know, you can learn a lotfrom those kinds of past
activities and see how it mightshape the future.
So, you know, I think again,it's a combination of all of
those things, and that may be inyou know, policy briefs, it's
newsletters, it's webinars, it'sface-to-face meetings, it's
(22:19):
individual calls.
You know, I I look at myselfagain, I know I said this at the
beginning, but kind of atranslator and just a resource
to help people understand, youknow, what's going on and and
what it might mean for theirbusiness.
SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's an important, it's animportant role that you play.
And I and I don't want you toundersell it, but you know, it's
a significant thing that you doand beneficial to everybody that
that you're working with,whether that's on the national
scale or even the internationalscale.
SPEAKER_03 (22:51):
Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
So what what are there any international
collaborations or or policiesthat are emerging that you could
talk about that are kind ofreshaping that sector?
SPEAKER_02 (23:02):
I think right now, I mean, in terms of collaboration,
I think the policy frameworksthat we're seeing, we're seeing
international forces right nowkind of working to reshape the
sector through things likeextended producer
responsibility.
It's not going on just here inthe United States, it's also
happening all throughout Europeand places like Chile and Kenya
(23:26):
as well and Canada.
So EPR is a big one.
But there are also somediscussions going on right now
at the United Nations levelwhere they're looking at kind of
definitions of what textilematerials would be regarded as
reusable and those that theymight classify as waste.
And these might sound sort oftechnical in nature, but they do
(23:50):
have the potentially real-worldconsequences.
Because if these materials areinappropriately misclassified by
the United Nations, then youhave the potential for these
materials to become subject toexport restrictions or bans when
in fact these materials areintended for legitimate reuse
(24:14):
and recycling.
And that can, of course, jam upall of these circular trade
flows that are going to benecessary in order to make these
circular policies like EPR, youknow, work.
But then on top of it, it'sthis, and this is the one that
honestly keeps me up at night.
It's the potential for impactingthe livelihoods of millions of
(24:36):
people, again, through placeslike Africa and Central America
and Asia.
It's really alarming that someof these decisions are being
made.
I think they're verywell-meaning, but maybe not
always well informed or youknow, maybe a little bit
misinformed by misinformation,and they have the potential to
impact so many millions of livesin a negative way.
(25:00):
So, you know, I think that's toyour broader question, you know,
what what policy frameworks areemerging that could reshape the
sector?
You know, I'm kind of looking atit the perspective of as a
challenge, but I think also theopportunity when I look at
something like the Americas Act,there is still opportunity here
that we could seize to, youknow, enhance the recognition of
(25:23):
this industry, to make sure thatall of these pieces of the
larger equation are comingtogether.
You know, so there's there's alot of positive stuff too.
I don't I don't want to make itall sound scary and think in
that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Hey, when we're talking about this kind of
stuff, it it is scary, but itit's refreshing to to hear that
there are solutions or there aresome positives.
So you really can't talk aboutthose positives without talking
about those challenges.
SPEAKER_01 (25:50):
You're so right.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (25:52):
And you know, just you know, speaking more more on
those challenges on theproduction side of things.
What are some of the mostpressing operational challenges
that your members uh seem toface in complying with these new
textile laws or future textilelaws or even in the past?
SPEAKER_02 (26:10):
You know, I think that operationally, again, and
and I don't want to be toorepetitive on say there's a lot
of question at this point intime because EPR in the United
States at least is entirely newfor textiles.
I think I mentioned earlier thatthere have been, you know, a
number of EPR programs that havebeen applied to other product
(26:31):
categories.
So, but the textile policy forEPR is totally new in the United
States.
California was the first stateto pass it.
So I think operationally, one ofthe challenges that they might
have is just simply not knowinghow it's gonna all shake out at
the end, you know.
And I've been with public policypeople like myself, but in other
(26:55):
roles in the sector, you know,in industry panels and even in
private conversations where, youknow, someone will ask, how do
you think it's gonna impact theindustry?
And none of us can answer thatbecause there's no precedent
here, you know, in the UnitedStates.
It's truly novel legislation.
So I think that uncertainty, asI'm sure you know, in any kind
(27:18):
of business uncertainty, can bea real operational challenge.
And then I think also as part ofthe EPR framework overall,
there's gonna be a lot ofreporting that needs to happen.
You know, the companies thatproduce these materials are
ultimately responsible for,again, kind of figuring out how
to recover these materials andfund those activities.
(27:41):
But at the end of the day, Ithink, you know, they're gonna
be all the different playerslike our industry that are
helping them to accomplish that,that are gonna have to provide,
you know, the data andinformation about where these
materials are going, you know,how they're being reused, what
their composition is.
And I think our industry isstill figuring out the best and
(28:03):
most efficient way tocommunicate that information,
with also without knowing whatspecific information they're
going to need.
So it all kind of ties back intothat theme of uncertainty.
But, you know, again, one of thethings I will say about working
with this industry under Smartis they are really scrappy and
(28:24):
adaptable.
I've just seen it throughout theyears.
So I do think they'll be able toadapt, but it can just be a
little bit uncomfortable attimes.
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
Yeah.
And, you know, just that kind ofleads in into my next question.
Just with some systems liketracking reuse or reporting
metrics.
How are you helping membersimplement those practical
systems when it comes to policygoals?
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Yeah, you know, I think that at this point in
time, it really is still an areawhere ever everyone is still
learning.
SPEAKER_02 (28:55):
Like I said, you know, technical EPR is so new
here.
So, you know, we are looking atwhat other industries have done
under earlier EPR laws and othersectors.
So again, that's things likepackaging and electronics and
paint, and how those you knowindustries have gotten involved
(29:15):
in tracking and reporting.
And we're also looking at what'sunfolded in other countries that
are ahead of us on this.
France has had a textile EPRprogram since 2007.
So I have no doubt there's youknow good learning there.
And you know, that'll just meanlike kind of starting at the
basics, identifying the datathat they already collect, then
(29:38):
identifying, you know, what gapsthey might have, and then doing
that investigation into kind ofwhat kind of reporting and
tracking tools and technologiesare out there to help them
consolidate you know that thatinformation into a singular
package that can be presented tothe powers that be.
So, you know, SMART will be, Ithink doing that work with our
(30:02):
members at the same time andit'll be probably a
bi-directional effort where youknow they're sharing information
with us and and we're going outand doing some of that research
and sharing it back with themand then coming up with what
those best options are.
So it's definitely it's still abit of a moving target, I think
is is probably the bottom linehere.
But you know I I think it's aprocess that will evolve into
(30:25):
something more concrete.
SPEAKER_00 (30:27):
Sure.
And then and I'm sure it'llalways be a moving target.
No matter how much progress youmake some make I'm sure
something will always come upand and you know you'll you'll
have to adjust and and you knowevery time every single time so
when it comes to policy successhow do you measure that whether
(30:48):
it's the amount of urden memberadoption or or infrastructure
growth.
SPEAKER_02 (30:53):
You know I think it's kind of based more on I or
at least it starts with theoutcomes.
So you know from our industry'sperspective specifically that
means you know more garments andhousehold textiles and other
textiles getting that second andthird life or maybe fourth life
like I mentioned fewer headed tothe landfill I think that some
(31:17):
of it from smart's perspectiveso the association's perspective
as a representative of thebroader industry that is that
growing momentum that we'reseeing with things like
government support.
So that's you know grants andtax incentives and other funding
opportunities, but also kind ofthe policymakers' willingness to
(31:41):
hear what we have to say and andrecognize you know again the
contributions that we're making.
And you know I think also we'repolicymakers and the public
really understand that the workthat our members are doing, this
textile reuse and recycling istruly essential.
(32:01):
And what happens then is thatends up being reflected in the
policies that are developed andkind of the narrative that that
surrounds the industry.
So there are multiple layers toit but I I think kind of the
emphasis is that overallrecognition of what the industry
(32:21):
is doing and kind of how thatplays out in these different
segments.
SPEAKER_00 (32:26):
Well I hope there's there's a lot of success coming
your way coming smart's way andso that's kind of what leads me
into my next thing what what isnext?
What's on the horizon fortextile policy whether that's
the federal or state levels youknow whatever level that you
want to talk about and you knowsome upcoming policies or bills
that are kind of most crucialthat you think people should
(32:47):
keep an eye on.
SPEAKER_02 (32:48):
Yeah I think that right now the the thing that
we're most engaged on here inthe US is is these EPR measures
like I said.
So California is still workingto implement the law that it
passed and that will unfold overthe next several years through
its regulatory process.
And then as I mentioned stateslike Washington and New York are
(33:12):
advancing their own legislationon this subject matter.
And typically you know once thatkind of state activity starts to
pick up steam other states moveforward in adopting it too.
So I think the state activity isis something you know that focus
on EPR at the state level issomething we're very focused on.
I think it'll be interesting tosee that you know as that state
(33:35):
activity and other internationalactivity picks up, you know,
whether whether the federalgovernment starts to get
involved again we we talkedabout Congress's issues but you
know there are other levelswithin the federal government
and agencies that you know maytake an interest in this and
already are showing signs indoing so.
You know the other activitiesthat I mentioned earlier this
(33:58):
work that's going on at theUnited Nations level and and
some of the global activitiesyou know that are well intended
but have the potential to beproblematic, those are going to
be things that we're working on.
And I would only expect thatthis global dialogue is going to
grow and continue.
So I think kind of making surethat we're engaged and doing
(34:20):
that same kind of educationalwork that we've been doing here,
you know, in the United Statesat a more micro level and
expanding that to a more macrolevel and and we're getting some
traction on that and you knowI'm I'm excited to be a part of
that work again we we kind offinally have this platform to to
share the the work that we'redoing and to make this positive
(34:44):
difference in a real way andagain at all levels of
government that that's notsomething that happens all the
time.
So it's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
And how can other people get excited like industry
players or listeners how canthey contribute to policy
development whether that's as anadvocate or or a collaborator?
SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
Well you know I I think that the the first thing
for anybody that's interested inlearning more about smart as an
organization, you know, I wouldinvite them to go to our website
smartasn.org and you know youcan learn a lot about the
industry and the background andsome of these policy topics.
And then I think that you knowfor those that are just kind of
(35:25):
interested in staying up onthese topics overall, you know,
pay attention to what's you knowcoming out of your local and
state governments in particularkeep an eye on legislation you
know that's being discussedagain as it relates to kind of
addressing these issues relatedto textiles.
And you know the the great thingabout the public policy process,
(35:48):
you know, kind of quote unquotelobbying and advocacy oftentimes
gets a bad name, but it's reallypart of our constitutionally
protective process and abilityto engage our government and
express our position on thesetopics.
And so it's not just limited togroups like Smart, it's limited
to anybody you know who is aconstituent of these policy
(36:12):
makers.
And so you know I would suggestthat if they have an interest in
this, you know, again they canreach out to groups like us to
learn more or maybe if they'rein the industry, you know, join
our group to have thatcollective power.
But also you know as aconstituent they can do their
own outreach as well.
So I think a lot of it is reallyjust staying informed.
(36:33):
And the more that you getengaged the more you learn I
mean we're all kind of learningas we go because like I said
it's relatively new here in theUnited States.
And so the nice thing about thatis you know you're not behind
the eight ball.
You know we're kind of alllearning at the same pace and
and that's a good place to be.
SPEAKER_00 (36:51):
Yeah we're all in this together right now we're
all going at the the same pacelearning you know something new
and I definitely learned learneda lot sitting down here and and
speaking with you and I hope thelisteners also learned learned
something new.
So I just want to thank youagain for joining us.
SPEAKER_02 (37:06):
Yes absolutely thank you so much I I really enjoyed
talking with you you asked greatquestions and and I appreciate
your interest in this yeahabsolutely it's it's a big part
of us you know we we lovesustainability anything second
life or third life fourth lifelike you said you know when it
comes to textiles and materialsis there is there anything that
uh you might want to add beforewe wrap things up no I I I mean
(37:29):
again I I would invite people tovisit the smart website again
that's smartasn.org I'm also onLinkedIn people should feel free
to connect with me there and ofcourse smart is too and again
that's another way you knowsocial media is such a good way
to kind of stay on top of thekey developments.
We're really you know makingsure that we pump that out to
(37:51):
the broader public.
But I think you can again one ofthe things that I really pride
myself on doing for SMART ismaking this information easy to
understand for people.
And so I think people can againget engaged get informed and you
know feel free to start with usas a resource and and build on
it from there.
But you know the more voices wehave in participating in this
(38:14):
process the more that we alllearn and benefit from it.
So you know I I know that I havekind of a big tent approach and
I know some of the other peoplethat represent you know other
segments of this larger industryvalue chain are very interested
in hearing from other people'svoices too.
So it's really kind ofconstructive and exciting topic
(38:37):
of policy to be involved inright now.
SPEAKER_00 (38:39):
Yeah absolutely and we look forward to kind of
following along as well andJessica we know you're you're a
busy person so we really doappreciate your time with us.
SPEAKER_02 (38:48):
Thank you so much again I I really appreciate your
interest and and taking the timeto have this conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (38:54):
Our pleasure our pleasure well thank you again
Jessica and thank you everyonefor listening that's all the
time we have we'll see you nexttime thanks for listening to
this episode of the Four Worldspodcast.
Until next time you can catch upon the latest innovations
shaping our world attomorrow'sworldtoday dot com
follow us on Facebook andInstagram and be sure to
(39:16):
subscribe to our YouTube channel
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