December 12, 2024 • 23 mins
In this episode of "The Fourscore Project," Roger Clark begins an in-depth conversation with former California Governor Pete Wilson, exploring his storied career and the key lessons he learned from his close association with President Ronald Reagan. Governor Wilson reflects on his experiences serving alongside Reagan, both during Reagan's time as Governor of California and later as President of the United States. The discussion covers Reagan's leadership style, his ability to communicate effectively, and the pivotal moments that defined his presidency, such as the Strategic Defense Initiative. Wilson also shares personal anecdotes that highlight Reagan's wit, humor, and unwavering commitment to American values. This episode offers a unique glimpse into the leadership principles that shaped not only Reagan's legacy but also Wilson's own approach to public service.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:21):
Welcome
to this episode of the Four Scoreand seven Project,
a productionof the New Majority Foundation.
My name is Roger Clark, your host.
This is the beginning of the GovernorPete Wilson series, a wide ranging
and intimate conversationwith the former governor
that explores a wide range of subjectsand issues
that are both topicaland timely to California and the nation.
(00:45):
Pete Wilson was the 36th governorof California from 1991 to 1999,
a United States Senator from California,from 1983 to 1991,
and the 29th mayor of San Diegofrom 1971 to 1983.
He is a United States Marineserving on active duty from 1955 to 1958.
(01:05):
A graduate of the UC BerkeleySchool of Law and Yale University.
Governor Wilson, through his lifeand lifetime of public service,
has given us a powerful exampleof what it means
to be a leaderfor all the American people.
A true American patriot.
A man who can teach and instruct us todayon the principles of statesmanship
(01:25):
that all current politicaland business leaders should heed.
In our first episode, GovernorWilson reflects on his close association
with Ronald Reagan.
Over the many years of their personaland professional relationship.
And GovernorWilson shares his thoughts on what he sees
as PresidentReagan's secret sauce for leadership.
For us
(01:46):
in the 21st century.
I had had the privilege of serving
with Ronald Reagan twice.
The first time was when he was electedgovernor,
and I was in the same year
elected to the state assembly.
A good friend was GeorgeDeukmejian at one fundraising event.
(02:09):
I think it was for him.
I made the other smartass comment
when the presidentwas kind enough to come by
that we were happythat we were able to sweep him
in on our coattails,
which he tossed off.
I did have the privilegeof being in the legislature.
(02:31):
I was the minority whipuntil we became the majority,
and then I became a committee chairmanfor five years.
The last five years of Ronald Reagan's
two terms as governor, I was very much
an enthusiastic supporter,
and that was true, but
(02:54):
not nearly as significant
as the great privilegeI had of serving with him a second time.
This time when he was president,serving for two terms
and for six of his eight years.
The last six I was in the United StatesSenate representing California
(03:15):
after quite
an interesting campaignin which I managed to defeat the present
United States Senator Dianne Feinstein.
It was a very interesting education
serving in those roles.
In particular, when I was on the SenateArmed Services Committee in the U.S.
(03:37):
Senate.
I had the privilegeof being one of the loudest,
most persistent voices in defending
Ronald Reagan's initiativethat his detractors
referred to as Star Wars, peoplewho knew what they were talking about,
who were the backers of StarWars, were people who said,
(03:58):
this is going to give us the edge
in our dealings with the Soviet Union.
And it did.There was no question about it.
And there is no questionthat the Soviets knew that, too.
And they had one desperate try
in which thethen Soviet leader, Gorbachev,
spent an afternoon in a small housein Reykjavik, in Iceland,
(04:23):
and as it happenedtowards about the end of the afternoon,
things seemed to be going well.
The president was pleasantly surprisedbecause Gorbachev
seemed to be making concessionsthat he'd resisted before,
but at the end of that afternoon,or almost the end,
he called home, called Nancy,and she said, Well, how's it going?
(04:47):
And he said, Well, it's going very well.
In fact, I may be home for dinner.
Well, when he returned from that,
he sat down and there were only six peoplein that little house,
two interpreters in addition to Gorbachevand the president.
The only two othersthere were George Shultz.
(05:08):
And she ever Nazithe Soviet foreign minister.
When they came back from the breakthrough the interpreter,
Gorbachev said to the president, Now, Mr.
President,you do understand, of course, that
all these concessionsthat I have made to you this afternoon
are necessarily dependentupon your agreeing to abandon.
(05:30):
Yes, the Ithe Strategic Defense Initiative.
The what was derisively called Star Wars.
Correct.
With that, Ronald Reagan lost his temper.
He rarely did.
When he did, it was justified.
And in this case,when he heard the interpreter
(05:51):
say that he slammed the notebook shut,
turned to George Shultz, and he said,Come on, George, we're out of here.
And with that,
he got up, put on his overcoat.
Out the door, he went with George Shultz
right behind him, trying to persuade himto stay with Gorbachev.
(06:13):
Didn't work.
And the photographs are quite clear
because Reagan was striding ahead.
He was a very nice man, but he was angry.
He felt that he had been played,so he was not listening.
And Gorbachev was trying desperately
(06:34):
to speak into his ear and persuade him
to come back to the bargaining table.
He didn't.
But ten months later, as you know,
at the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin,
he made the famous speechwhen he said, Mr.
Gorbachev, tear down this wall.
(06:54):
So I gather, like so many of us,you're a great admirer of Ronald Reagan.
I was indeed. I remain so.
You knew Ronald Reagan personally,dealt with him on a 1 to 1 basis.
Ronald Reagan,I think, in retrospect, has considered
not only a great Republican president,but a great American.
And you can see that at his funeral.
(07:16):
How there was overwhelming support acrossall political lines.
Joe Leslie carried every state but one.
If you had to summarize his secret sauce,because we need so many people
in politics,both at the state and national level now,
we need some more of that Ronald Reagansecret sauce that can reach
across the political divideand result in handshakes.
(07:37):
What do you thinkhe was his political sauce
that you could pass on to peoplenow that are currently running for office?
Well, I think his great secret was thathe was sincere.
He made good sense.
He was straight with the American people.
He was straight with everybodyas he was with Gorbachev.
(07:58):
He thought this was as it was then
the superpower of the universe.
And he was someone who believedthat our destiny was determined
by our strength, thatfor as long as there were threats to that,
he would maintain a vigorous,
(08:21):
very strong, benevolent superpower status
for the United States, because he thoughtand I think he was absolutely right.
If we are a superpower
so that they are fearful
that we will have the resolve to use
weapons and superior strength militarily.
(08:44):
But he was also very much aliveto the fact
that a lot of people takefor granted their freedom in this country.
He has made the comment more than oncepublicly
that freedom is only one
generation away from extinction.
(09:04):
By which he meantthat you can't take it for granted.
You cannot ignore people
like Hitler, like Mao.
They are dictators.
They don't live in lead free countries.
It could not be more different.
Just a few weeks ago,I was walking Omaha Beach with my wife.
(09:26):
Took our time.
A good mile, a mile
and a half up and down Omaha Beachand went up to point the hawk where
Colonel James Rudders, I think, ledhis Ranger battalion of the 100 foot
vertical cliff, took to the point of hogterrible fighting, vicious fighting.
And if I recall right,that's where President Reagan in 1984,
which is I think the 40th anniversary,stood at the very end, appointed a hawk
(09:48):
and gave this wonderful speechabout the best.
What do you remember of that speech?
Well,he made it clear that the boys of Point
to Hawk were owed an enormous debtof gratitude by the American people
and for that matter, by peoplestriving to be free everywhere.
(10:09):
And he was absolutely correct.
It was more than just a good speech.
You could tellthat he believed every word of it.
He was not just eloquent,but he was sincere.
And it was one of the great speechesand he made many.
But I thought one of the finesta lot of people who were not at point
(10:29):
to Hawk, but who had loved ones, who were
who did not come back, were in tears.
And so were a lot of peoplewho were just in tears because of the
the gratitude that he was expressing.
And they admiration.
It was a great speech.
I've heard stories, and maybe you canreflect on this, that President Reagan
(10:51):
drove the folks over in the stateDepartment nuts from time to time.
And what I have in mindis the speech you referenced about Mr.
Gorbachev, tear down this wall.
He kept handwriting that into the speechin the state Department, kept.
That's true.What are your reflections on that?
Well, it tells you two things about RonaldReagan.
One is that he had decidedwhen he wrote it that he meant it.
(11:15):
And it should be said,because he wanted it to be very clear
to Gorbachevand to others who were trying to support
the Soviet Unionthat they were not going to succeed.
I think that was a turning point.
I think that Gorbachev and others
in the Kremlin who hated the thought
(11:37):
knew that they had come to a pointwhere they had to abandon it.
And tearing down the Berlin Wall,as he demanded,
was about as vivid
and sure a sign that he was serious
and knew that if we had to,we would have the resolve
that equaled the actual military strengththat we possessed.
(12:01):
You know, the tensionbetween President Reagan,
which I put on the side of good old commonsense, coupled with a tremendous
backbone versus the state Department,which I would classify
as people who would be considered expertsin foreign diplomacy.
History has proved the experts wrong.
The man with the common senseand the backbone. Right.
(12:22):
Which seems to be an issue to me,that my perception
is that not just in the 19 states,but probably most places,
we are deferring more and more to experts,supposed experts, whatever
the field may be, as opposedto exercising our own common sense.
And of course, one of our projects hereabout our educational function is to help
people be informedso that they can bring their own common
(12:45):
sense to the issues of the day.
How do you feel about thattension between experts
and deferring to expertsand using common sense?
You know, Roger, itcommon sense was very uncommon.
There were a lot of peoplewho thought that was
being provocative,that it was going too far.
(13:06):
He didn'tHe wanted Gorbachev to understand
very clearly why he was demandingthat they break down that wall.
Tear down this wall.
And it was because what he wanted to sayin so many words was
there is never going to be a time
when we are willing to allow thisto continue.
(13:30):
The time has come for youto tear down this wall,
which means to set freethe people in East Germany
and for that matter,the so-called captive nations
that he freed, Poland, Hungary,the Czech Republic.
The man said, What he believed.
He was not a bully, he was not ferocious,but by God, he meant it.
(13:55):
And he made it clear.
That's why he kept writing it back in.
Every time the State Departmentspeechwriters would put it back,
I guess they thought they
could wear them down.
He was the guy with the last word.
Wanted to also touch base on his,you know, sense of humor,
(14:16):
which we have seemed
to have lost a sense of humor politically.
It's very rare to see someone now
running for officethat has a genuine sense of humor.
And of course, Reaganfamously had a sense of humor.
And you go back and look at his remarksnow, we wonder, well,
how did you get away with that?
You know, butbut he had that delivery and that talent.
(14:38):
What put your thoughts onsense of humor in politics?
Why are we losing if you agree with that,maybe you don't, but.
Well, I do.
I mean, I think he used it
in a way that made his pointbut made people laugh.
One of the best examples I can think ofwas his debate with Fritz Mondale.
(14:59):
And I've forgotten who the reporterwas who asked him a question.
But the question
was, do you have any concerns
about your ability to dischargethe heavy duties of the presidency?
Do you think that your ageis going to be a question?
And he said, I have no intention
(15:20):
of taking unfair advantage
of my opponent's youth and inexperience.
His opponent was probably in his fiftiesat the time.
Or maybe. Yeah.
And to his credit,
Fritz Mondale burst into laughter
and so did the audience for this debatethat was going on.
And he was all that Reagan,that is at that time was very youthful
(15:42):
by today's standards.
And I was in. The service as they do.
Well, let let's let's talk about age.
The current presidentis an octogenarian running again who.
One of the four of the primary candidatesto have the Republican nomination,
I guess, is closing in on an octogenarian.
What's your thought on agein holding that office?
(16:02):
We've always been a countryfocused on youth as as opposed to
so many other countrieswhere octogenarians are revered
and looked at as the wise folksthat should be running things.
We have traditionally not been that waywhere we have gone the other way.
Youthful 40 something year old, you know,chiefs of state and things like that.
What are your reflections onas we're putting candidates out
(16:24):
that are in their eighties voting,considering them for the White House?
What is this a good thing, bad thing,or any thoughts on that?
Well, I think it has to be the focushas to be on the individual, not just age,
but health, energy, the ability to sustainthat very tough schedule.
And Reagan had it, these gruelingschedules, not just during the campaigns.
(16:49):
That's tough enough,but the travel, the meetings
with his own staff,the meetings with members of Congress,
with members of the public,all sectors of the public.
And it's it's hard work.
It requires
concentration that requires study,and it requires that you stay in shape.
(17:09):
And he did.
Reagan had all of those things.
What we learned is that, sadly,he also had Alzheimer's.
I pray to God that someday soon
there will be a discoverythat puts that one behind us.
I think the answer to your question,Roger, is it depends on the individual.
(17:32):
The kind of triggers,a kind of a sensitive question,
because John Kennedy,although he was a youthful president,
had a lot of medical issues that no oneknew about publicly at the time.
And if they had been known publiclyby today's standards,
he probably would have been disqualified,at least by the voters.
Arguably, maybe true, maybe not.
But now when we are
(17:53):
talking about people who are 40 years oldor that are running for that same office,
how much is their private medical historyfair game?
How much of that do
we need to have access to in orderfor the voters to make an assessment?
Is that individual medically competent
to discharge those strenuous duties?
I think thatthere is an absolute necessity
(18:14):
for the medical experts who have examined
to be advised by the candidatethat there is.
In fact, the following bill of healthmay not be perfect health.
It may be somebody has a heart condition.
We've had people as vice presidentand president
(18:35):
who have hadsome serious medical problems.
But until Reagan suffered
this terrible disease of Alzheimer's,he was a pretty tough guy.
I mean,he sustained an assassination attempt.
And joked about it and.
Did it and said emergency. Room.
Said to the surgeonswho were taking care of him.
(18:56):
They said, I hope all of youfellows are registered Republican.
Which is a
tremendous presenceconsidering a life threatening situation,
because I think we found out laterthat he was about a quarter venture away
from as losing him very,very close to being.
So I suppose he probably looked at thatas a second chance for him at that point.
(19:17):
Maybe it gave him increased devotionto dedication, to his purposes.
I think it did.
I think it did.
He started with a very clearset of principles and goals.
Take Alan, who didn't know himwell at the beginning
of their relationshipwhen they, I think, first met.
Dick said, Doing war.
(19:38):
Where are youin this issue of foreign policy?
Tell me what you think.
He said, It's very simple.
We win, they lose.
It's good policy.
And Dick burst into laughter and he said,You mean that?
He said, You're damn right it.
(19:58):
Was something that was a little bit of
a boy business.
And I mean, he But regardless of his age,which I think is very healthy
and so many people in the world knowthis building is the Nakatomi Plaza,
which Bruce Willis blew up about 30,40 years ago.
It's all been repaired very nicely now.
So it's a very nice office.
But I hear a storythat when President Reagan was here,
(20:21):
he was in one of the,I think, the Century City Plaza,
and someone had a meeting with themand could not find him.
And he was late for the meeting.
And somebody said,we need to go upstairs in the top floor.
I think he's up there.
And they went upstairs
and he found the president making paperairplanes out of White House stationery
and throwing them out one centurybefore for who he was.
So he's probably in the seventies,but he's enjoying what I think most people
(20:44):
considered to be a very boyish activity.
But to me, that's kind of endearing,and I think that's healthy
to still have a little bit of a youngster,whether you're a man or a woman.
and. You and well,he loved to go up to the ranch and it's a
an unpretentious structure,
but he loved being up there.
And he would take guests, at least certain
(21:08):
guests up there for a weekendor at least for a visit.
I think he did itwith the late queen of England.
But in any case, yeah, he didn't.
He enjoyed life.
He enjoyed the outdoors.
He loved working on the ranch.
That that was his idea of a good timenot having somebody paid for it.
(21:29):
So he was a very wholesome guy.
And they didhave this wonderful sense of humor.
As it happened, I had the good fortunefor which I was very grateful
that he made speeches for my campaignfor governor.
Nine speeches all over the state.
The last performance that he gave was,
(21:52):
I believe, at the College of the Desert.
And the bill was not just
Ronald Reagan, but Bob Hope.
And they had an exchange total and lib.
And it was hilarious and the audience
was beside themselves.
Well, I guess that President Reaganhad some stand up comic in him as well.
(22:17):
It sounds like he probably held his ownwith Bob Hope.
Well, they did.
They were going back and forthand and did it for about,
at least 20 minutes.
And finally, I think it was the president.
He said, well, Bob, it's been fun,but this is, after all,
Pete's partyand we ought to let him get on it.
(22:38):
And to which I said, Mr.
President, I am not a fool after whatyou just given this audience,
if you think I'm going to makea serious speech, forget it.
It is that kind of a way of sayingyou're a hard act to follow.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Wonderful, wonderful stories.
(22:59):
Thank you for joining usfor this fascinating and informative
discussionwith former Governor Pete Wilson.
My name is Roger Clark, your hostfor this episode of the Fourscore
and Seven Project, a productionof the New Majority Foundation.
Please share and like us with your friends
and be sure to join us for part twoof our conversation with Governor Wilson,
(23:20):
where we will continueto explore the importance of honesty,
the importance of debates,the challenges presented by the media,
and the lessons of leadership.
Governor Wilson learned from his father.
Welcome
to this episode of the Four Scoreand seven Project,
a productionof the New Majority Foundation.
My name is Roger Clark, your host.
This is the beginning of the GovernorPete Wilson series, a wide ranging
and intimate conversationwith the former governor
that explores a wide range of subjectsand issues
that are both topicaland timely to California and the nation.
(00:45):
Pete Wilson was the 36th governorof California from 1991 to 1999,
a United States Senator from California,from 1983 to 1991,
and the 29th mayor of San Diegofrom 1971 to 1983.
He is a United States Marineserving on active duty from 1955 to 1958.
(01:05):
A graduate of the UC BerkeleySchool of Law and Yale University.
Governor Wilson, through his lifeand lifetime of public service,
has given us a powerful exampleof what it means
to be a leaderfor all the American people.
A true American patriot.
A man who can teach and instruct us todayon the principles of statesmanship
(01:25):
that all current politicaland business leaders should heed.
In our first episode, GovernorWilson reflects on his close association
with Ronald Reagan.
Over the many years of their personaland professional relationship.
And GovernorWilson shares his thoughts on what he sees
as PresidentReagan's secret sauce for leadership.
For us
(01:46):
in the 21st century.
I had had the privilege of serving
with Ronald Reagan twice.
The first time was when he was electedgovernor,
and I was in the same year
elected to the state assembly.
A good friend was GeorgeDeukmejian at one fundraising event.
(02:09):
I think it was for him.
I made the other smartass comment
when the presidentwas kind enough to come by
that we were happythat we were able to sweep him
in on our coattails,
which he tossed off.
I did have the privilegeof being in the legislature.
(02:31):
I was the minority whipuntil we became the majority,
and then I became a committee chairmanfor five years.
The last five years of Ronald Reagan's
two terms as governor, I was very much
an enthusiastic supporter,
and that was true, but
(02:54):
not nearly as significant
as the great privilegeI had of serving with him a second time.
This time when he was president,serving for two terms
and for six of his eight years.
The last six I was in the United StatesSenate representing California
(03:15):
after quite
an interesting campaignin which I managed to defeat the present
United States Senator Dianne Feinstein.
It was a very interesting education
serving in those roles.
In particular, when I was on the SenateArmed Services Committee in the U.S.
(03:37):
Senate.
I had the privilegeof being one of the loudest,
most persistent voices in defending
Ronald Reagan's initiativethat his detractors
referred to as Star Wars, peoplewho knew what they were talking about,
who were the backers of StarWars, were people who said,
(03:58):
this is going to give us the edge
in our dealings with the Soviet Union.
And it did.There was no question about it.
And there is no questionthat the Soviets knew that, too.
And they had one desperate try
in which thethen Soviet leader, Gorbachev,
spent an afternoon in a small housein Reykjavik, in Iceland,
(04:23):
and as it happenedtowards about the end of the afternoon,
things seemed to be going well.
The president was pleasantly surprisedbecause Gorbachev
seemed to be making concessionsthat he'd resisted before,
but at the end of that afternoon,or almost the end,
he called home, called Nancy,and she said, Well, how's it going?
(04:47):
And he said, Well, it's going very well.
In fact, I may be home for dinner.
Well, when he returned from that,
he sat down and there were only six peoplein that little house,
two interpreters in addition to Gorbachevand the president.
The only two othersthere were George Shultz.
(05:08):
And she ever Nazithe Soviet foreign minister.
When they came back from the breakthrough the interpreter,
Gorbachev said to the president, Now, Mr.
President,you do understand, of course, that
all these concessionsthat I have made to you this afternoon
are necessarily dependentupon your agreeing to abandon.
(05:30):
Yes, the Ithe Strategic Defense Initiative.
The what was derisively called Star Wars.
Correct.
With that, Ronald Reagan lost his temper.
He rarely did.
When he did, it was justified.
And in this case,when he heard the interpreter
(05:51):
say that he slammed the notebook shut,
turned to George Shultz, and he said,Come on, George, we're out of here.
And with that,
he got up, put on his overcoat.
Out the door, he went with George Shultz
right behind him, trying to persuade himto stay with Gorbachev.
(06:13):
Didn't work.
And the photographs are quite clear
because Reagan was striding ahead.
He was a very nice man, but he was angry.
He felt that he had been played,so he was not listening.
And Gorbachev was trying desperately
(06:34):
to speak into his ear and persuade him
to come back to the bargaining table.
He didn't.
But ten months later, as you know,
at the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin,
he made the famous speechwhen he said, Mr.
Gorbachev, tear down this wall.
(06:54):
So I gather, like so many of us,you're a great admirer of Ronald Reagan.
I was indeed. I remain so.
You knew Ronald Reagan personally,dealt with him on a 1 to 1 basis.
Ronald Reagan,I think, in retrospect, has considered
not only a great Republican president,but a great American.
And you can see that at his funeral.
(07:16):
How there was overwhelming support acrossall political lines.
Joe Leslie carried every state but one.
If you had to summarize his secret sauce,because we need so many people
in politics,both at the state and national level now,
we need some more of that Ronald Reagansecret sauce that can reach
across the political divideand result in handshakes.
(07:37):
What do you thinkhe was his political sauce
that you could pass on to peoplenow that are currently running for office?
Well, I think his great secret was thathe was sincere.
He made good sense.
He was straight with the American people.
He was straight with everybodyas he was with Gorbachev.
(07:58):
He thought this was as it was then
the superpower of the universe.
And he was someone who believedthat our destiny was determined
by our strength, thatfor as long as there were threats to that,
he would maintain a vigorous,
(08:21):
very strong, benevolent superpower status
for the United States, because he thoughtand I think he was absolutely right.
If we are a superpower
so that they are fearful
that we will have the resolve to use
weapons and superior strength militarily.
(08:44):
But he was also very much aliveto the fact
that a lot of people takefor granted their freedom in this country.
He has made the comment more than oncepublicly
that freedom is only one
generation away from extinction.
(09:04):
By which he meantthat you can't take it for granted.
You cannot ignore people
like Hitler, like Mao.
They are dictators.
They don't live in lead free countries.
It could not be more different.
Just a few weeks ago,I was walking Omaha Beach with my wife.
(09:26):
Took our time.
A good mile, a mile
and a half up and down Omaha Beachand went up to point the hawk where
Colonel James Rudders, I think, ledhis Ranger battalion of the 100 foot
vertical cliff, took to the point of hogterrible fighting, vicious fighting.
And if I recall right,that's where President Reagan in 1984,
which is I think the 40th anniversary,stood at the very end, appointed a hawk
(09:48):
and gave this wonderful speechabout the best.
What do you remember of that speech?
Well,he made it clear that the boys of Point
to Hawk were owed an enormous debtof gratitude by the American people
and for that matter, by peoplestriving to be free everywhere.
(10:09):
And he was absolutely correct.
It was more than just a good speech.
You could tellthat he believed every word of it.
He was not just eloquent,but he was sincere.
And it was one of the great speechesand he made many.
But I thought one of the finesta lot of people who were not at point
(10:29):
to Hawk, but who had loved ones, who were
who did not come back, were in tears.
And so were a lot of peoplewho were just in tears because of the
the gratitude that he was expressing.
And they admiration.
It was a great speech.
I've heard stories, and maybe you canreflect on this, that President Reagan
(10:51):
drove the folks over in the stateDepartment nuts from time to time.
And what I have in mindis the speech you referenced about Mr.
Gorbachev, tear down this wall.
He kept handwriting that into the speechin the state Department, kept.
That's true.What are your reflections on that?
Well, it tells you two things about RonaldReagan.
One is that he had decidedwhen he wrote it that he meant it.
(11:15):
And it should be said,because he wanted it to be very clear
to Gorbachevand to others who were trying to support
the Soviet Unionthat they were not going to succeed.
I think that was a turning point.
I think that Gorbachev and others
in the Kremlin who hated the thought
(11:37):
knew that they had come to a pointwhere they had to abandon it.
And tearing down the Berlin Wall,as he demanded,
was about as vivid
and sure a sign that he was serious
and knew that if we had to,we would have the resolve
that equaled the actual military strengththat we possessed.
(12:01):
You know, the tensionbetween President Reagan,
which I put on the side of good old commonsense, coupled with a tremendous
backbone versus the state Department,which I would classify
as people who would be considered expertsin foreign diplomacy.
History has proved the experts wrong.
The man with the common senseand the backbone. Right.
(12:22):
Which seems to be an issue to me,that my perception
is that not just in the 19 states,but probably most places,
we are deferring more and more to experts,supposed experts, whatever
the field may be, as opposedto exercising our own common sense.
And of course, one of our projects hereabout our educational function is to help
people be informedso that they can bring their own common
(12:45):
sense to the issues of the day.
How do you feel about thattension between experts
and deferring to expertsand using common sense?
You know, Roger, itcommon sense was very uncommon.
There were a lot of peoplewho thought that was
being provocative,that it was going too far.
(13:06):
He didn'tHe wanted Gorbachev to understand
very clearly why he was demandingthat they break down that wall.
Tear down this wall.
And it was because what he wanted to sayin so many words was
there is never going to be a time
when we are willing to allow thisto continue.
(13:30):
The time has come for youto tear down this wall,
which means to set freethe people in East Germany
and for that matter,the so-called captive nations
that he freed, Poland, Hungary,the Czech Republic.
The man said, What he believed.
He was not a bully, he was not ferocious,but by God, he meant it.
(13:55):
And he made it clear.
That's why he kept writing it back in.
Every time the State Departmentspeechwriters would put it back,
I guess they thought they
could wear them down.
He was the guy with the last word.
Wanted to also touch base on his,you know, sense of humor,
(14:16):
which we have seemed
to have lost a sense of humor politically.
It's very rare to see someone now
running for officethat has a genuine sense of humor.
And of course, Reaganfamously had a sense of humor.
And you go back and look at his remarksnow, we wonder, well,
how did you get away with that?
You know, butbut he had that delivery and that talent.
(14:38):
What put your thoughts onsense of humor in politics?
Why are we losing if you agree with that,maybe you don't, but.
Well, I do.
I mean, I think he used it
in a way that made his pointbut made people laugh.
One of the best examples I can think ofwas his debate with Fritz Mondale.
(14:59):
And I've forgotten who the reporterwas who asked him a question.
But the question
was, do you have any concerns
about your ability to dischargethe heavy duties of the presidency?
Do you think that your ageis going to be a question?
And he said, I have no intention
(15:20):
of taking unfair advantage
of my opponent's youth and inexperience.
His opponent was probably in his fiftiesat the time.
Or maybe. Yeah.
And to his credit,
Fritz Mondale burst into laughter
and so did the audience for this debatethat was going on.
And he was all that Reagan,that is at that time was very youthful
(15:42):
by today's standards.
And I was in. The service as they do.
Well, let let's let's talk about age.
The current presidentis an octogenarian running again who.
One of the four of the primary candidatesto have the Republican nomination,
I guess, is closing in on an octogenarian.
What's your thought on agein holding that office?
(16:02):
We've always been a countryfocused on youth as as opposed to
so many other countrieswhere octogenarians are revered
and looked at as the wise folksthat should be running things.
We have traditionally not been that waywhere we have gone the other way.
Youthful 40 something year old, you know,chiefs of state and things like that.
What are your reflections onas we're putting candidates out
(16:24):
that are in their eighties voting,considering them for the White House?
What is this a good thing, bad thing,or any thoughts on that?
Well, I think it has to be the focushas to be on the individual, not just age,
but health, energy, the ability to sustainthat very tough schedule.
And Reagan had it, these gruelingschedules, not just during the campaigns.
(16:49):
That's tough enough,but the travel, the meetings
with his own staff,the meetings with members of Congress,
with members of the public,all sectors of the public.
And it's it's hard work.
It requires
concentration that requires study,and it requires that you stay in shape.
(17:09):
And he did.
Reagan had all of those things.
What we learned is that, sadly,he also had Alzheimer's.
I pray to God that someday soon
there will be a discoverythat puts that one behind us.
I think the answer to your question,Roger, is it depends on the individual.
(17:32):
The kind of triggers,a kind of a sensitive question,
because John Kennedy,although he was a youthful president,
had a lot of medical issues that no oneknew about publicly at the time.
And if they had been known publiclyby today's standards,
he probably would have been disqualified,at least by the voters.
Arguably, maybe true, maybe not.
But now when we are
(17:53):
talking about people who are 40 years oldor that are running for that same office,
how much is their private medical historyfair game?
How much of that do
we need to have access to in orderfor the voters to make an assessment?
Is that individual medically competent
to discharge those strenuous duties?
I think thatthere is an absolute necessity
(18:14):
for the medical experts who have examined
to be advised by the candidatethat there is.
In fact, the following bill of healthmay not be perfect health.
It may be somebody has a heart condition.
We've had people as vice presidentand president
(18:35):
who have hadsome serious medical problems.
But until Reagan suffered
this terrible disease of Alzheimer's,he was a pretty tough guy.
I mean,he sustained an assassination attempt.
And joked about it and.
Did it and said emergency. Room.
Said to the surgeonswho were taking care of him.
(18:56):
They said, I hope all of youfellows are registered Republican.
Which is a
tremendous presenceconsidering a life threatening situation,
because I think we found out laterthat he was about a quarter venture away
from as losing him very,very close to being.
So I suppose he probably looked at thatas a second chance for him at that point.
(19:17):
Maybe it gave him increased devotionto dedication, to his purposes.
I think it did.
I think it did.
He started with a very clearset of principles and goals.
Take Alan, who didn't know himwell at the beginning
of their relationshipwhen they, I think, first met.
Dick said, Doing war.
(19:38):
Where are youin this issue of foreign policy?
Tell me what you think.
He said, It's very simple.
We win, they lose.
It's good policy.
And Dick burst into laughter and he said,You mean that?
He said, You're damn right it.
(19:58):
Was something that was a little bit of
a boy business.
And I mean, he But regardless of his age,which I think is very healthy
and so many people in the world knowthis building is the Nakatomi Plaza,
which Bruce Willis blew up about 30,40 years ago.
It's all been repaired very nicely now.
So it's a very nice office.
But I hear a storythat when President Reagan was here,
(20:21):
he was in one of the,I think, the Century City Plaza,
and someone had a meeting with themand could not find him.
And he was late for the meeting.
And somebody said,we need to go upstairs in the top floor.
I think he's up there.
And they went upstairs
and he found the president making paperairplanes out of White House stationery
and throwing them out one centurybefore for who he was.
So he's probably in the seventies,but he's enjoying what I think most people
(20:44):
considered to be a very boyish activity.
But to me, that's kind of endearing,and I think that's healthy
to still have a little bit of a youngster,whether you're a man or a woman.
and. You and well,he loved to go up to the ranch and it's a
an unpretentious structure,
but he loved being up there.
And he would take guests, at least certain
(21:08):
guests up there for a weekendor at least for a visit.
I think he did itwith the late queen of England.
But in any case, yeah, he didn't.
He enjoyed life.
He enjoyed the outdoors.
He loved working on the ranch.
That that was his idea of a good timenot having somebody paid for it.
(21:29):
So he was a very wholesome guy.
And they didhave this wonderful sense of humor.
As it happened, I had the good fortunefor which I was very grateful
that he made speeches for my campaignfor governor.
Nine speeches all over the state.
The last performance that he gave was,
(21:52):
I believe, at the College of the Desert.
And the bill was not just
Ronald Reagan, but Bob Hope.
And they had an exchange total and lib.
And it was hilarious and the audience
was beside themselves.
Well, I guess that President Reaganhad some stand up comic in him as well.
(22:17):
It sounds like he probably held his ownwith Bob Hope.
Well, they did.
They were going back and forthand and did it for about,
at least 20 minutes.
And finally, I think it was the president.
He said, well, Bob, it's been fun,but this is, after all,
Pete's partyand we ought to let him get on it.
(22:38):
And to which I said, Mr.
President, I am not a fool after whatyou just given this audience,
if you think I'm going to makea serious speech, forget it.
It is that kind of a way of sayingyou're a hard act to follow.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Wonderful, wonderful stories.
(22:59):
Thank you for joining usfor this fascinating and informative
discussionwith former Governor Pete Wilson.
My name is Roger Clark, your hostfor this episode of the Fourscore
and Seven Project, a productionof the New Majority Foundation.
Please share and like us with your friends
and be sure to join us for part twoof our conversation with Governor Wilson,
(23:20):
where we will continueto explore the importance of honesty,
the importance of debates,the challenges presented by the media,
and the lessons of leadership.
Governor Wilson learned from his father.
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