How to Make an Atari Sandwich, with David Gardner

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David (00:02):
Well, I said that to people.
"We don't have politics. Wedon't agree, we don't think
we should have politics."And they all laughed and
said, you don't have politics'cause you're running it.
There's politics under youand when you go over to
America, you're not running it.
Now you're in the politics.

Alex (00:17):
That was David Gardner, good friend, industry
heavyweight, longtime veteran,talking about company politics.
But the thing that you and Ipulled out, was he was like,
"Hey, we don't have companypolitics over in the office
I run," and they're like,yeah, because you run it!

Aaron (00:35):
Yeah.
Like the politics goupwards, not downwards.

Alex (00:40):
That's right.

Aaron (00:40):
Yeah.
What are you up to today?
What'd you do today?
Why don't you leteverybody know?

Alex (00:43):
Well, nothing that I did today.
I mean, I had my usual Sunday.
I get up at six, makemyself coffee, go play a
couple hours of tennis.

Aaron (00:51):
Couple hours, huh?

Alex (00:52):
Yeah.
This dog was- I haven'tbeen sleeping, 'cause
Laura's outta town and

Aaron (00:56):
Get rid of the dog.

Alex (00:57):
No, dude.
It's just, he misses her.

Aaron (01:00):
I'm just kidding.
Don't do it.

Alex (01:01):
He wakes up in the middle of the night.
He's like, where is everybody?
He just starts barking.

Aaron (01:05):
You gotta run 'em.
Like get out there and run 'em.
Just run 'em.

Alex (01:09):
Yeah.
I should take himto the dog park.

Aaron (01:12):
Or dog park.
Just get 'em tired.

Alex (01:14):
Well, I can't now 'cause I'm getting on a plane to go
to Germany in a couple hours.

Aaron (01:17):
Oh, Gamescom, right?

Alex (01:18):
Yeah.

Aaron (01:18):
Gamescom.
Do you like that show?

Alex (01:20):
I've never been.

Aaron (01:20):
You've never been?

Alex (01:21):
I've never- I, you know, that's my, that's my secret.
I've never been.
And so I'm kind oflooking forward to it.
And you know, I usually,I dread- I usually
dread travel, you know?
Just in general.

Aaron (01:31):
Why?

Alex (01:31):
It's like just getting displaced from my comfort zone.

Aaron (01:35):
Oh yeah, yeah.

Alex (01:35):
Having to go somewhere else and interact with people.
It's, you know, it's veryanxiety provoking, you know?
But I always have a good time.
I always do.

Aaron (01:42):
You know, I'm gonna give you a tip.
Can I give you a pro,a travel pro tip?
'cause you travelmore than I do.
Like, I thought- you know,I travel probably four
times a year, maybe five.
And usually they'reover two hour flights.
Four-ish is the average, right?
And pro tip.
It's kind of like a cheat day.
Do you know what a cheat day is,like for people that work out?

(02:03):
Like health nuts?

Alex (02:05):
Yeah.
Like you don't exerciseand you eat a pie.

Aaron (02:07):
Yeah.
Or you'll go to like the drivethrough and be like 'four
cheeseburgers, six fries,'you know, 'a diet Coke',
'cause we don't want to do-

Alex (02:14):
I've heard of- I've heard of them.

Aaron (02:15):
Okay.

Alex (02:16):
I've heard of them.

Aaron (02:17):
I treat travel as a cheat day.
So what I do is,I binge on a game.
So I'll take my Switch with me.
I'll purposely buy a game that Iknow I don't have time to play.
Like Red Dead was thelast one, or actually, no,
the last one was Skyrim.
Like I don't havetime to play Skyrim.
So I got Skyrim and Iplayed Skyrim on the flight!
And Balatro! I don't have timeto play those games.

(02:38):
Like I make time forother games, you know,
like I have a priority.
I can't play Magic theGathering on the flight
unless I pay for what-

Alex (02:43):
So you indulge, you indulge a little bit.

Aaron (02:45):
Yeah.
Or I'll read a book thatI'm not not gonna read.

Alex (02:47):
So it's like a treat, okay.

Aaron (02:48):
Yeah.
It's like a cheat day.

Alex (02:48):
So you do, it's a little bit of extra self
care while you're traveling.
Counteracts-

Aaron (02:51):
Yeah.
Watch a show that youwould, that's like level
C on your list, you know?

Alex (02:56):
All right.

Aaron (02:56):
Or a movie.

Alex (02:57):
I think, I think I'll probably take my laptop
and just code while I'mon the plane, you know?

Aaron (03:01):
Is that- yeah, if that's what you do for cheat day.
It sounds like work though...

Alex (03:06):
I know, right?
Doesn't it?
It was a thrill to haveDavid join us on the podcast.

Aaron (03:12):
Really nice guy.

Alex (03:13):
Yeah.
Super nice guy.
And I mentioned it to him,but he gets mentioned a lot,
by some of our other guests.
Yeah.

Aaron (03:19):
You know, if they ever make an Apple- if Apple,
I'm calling it out now.
Apple's gonna make amovie about EA Or aren't
they making one already?
They're making it aMadden movie, right?

Alex (03:29):
Oh, there is a Madden- but it's about the guy.

Aaron (03:32):
About the guy?
Okay.
I heard EA was init or something too.

Alex (03:36):
Probably.

Aaron (03:37):
But if they ever make an EA movie, there's gonna
be like a montage of like,"Get David on the phone." And
it's like, well, who's David?
And they're gonna do likea little montage of how you
know, and when you listen tothe podcast, how he explains
how he got to Atari and to EAfeels like- like a movie scene.

Alex (03:55):
It does, it does.

Aaron (03:55):
You know?
'Cause it's so like, quirkyand like, I don't know.
It's just- it's so unique.
Anyways.

Alex (04:03):
Yeah, defines the hustle.
It reminds me of thatphrase, "If you don't
ask, the answer's no."

Aaron (04:09):
Yeah.
I don't think hewas hustling though.
I think he was just being him.
Do you know what I mean?
You know how you have guysthat like build radios
in their basement andno one's asking them to?
They're not hustling!They're just like
doing something.
And it's like-

Alex (04:22):
Yeah.
Super... hat is that?
Is that self starter?

Aaron (04:26):
Motivated?

Alex (04:26):
Motivator?
Okay, well that's my Sunday.
What's your Sunday?
What do you got going?
Hey everybody.
This is Sunday.

Aaron (04:33):
It's Sunday for us.
I'm gonna build someWarhammer models because I
joined a Necromunda league.
So I need to build them.
This little guy here, I don'tknow if you could see him?
He's- it's a Darth Vader cat.
You can't see it.
I went to a paintingcompetition all day yesterday.
It was an eight plushour competition.

Alex (04:51):
Yeah?
Whoa.

Aaron (04:51):
I didn't win, but really cool people, met some
new- went with a buddy, youknow, you pay an entry fee
and then you get a free modeland then you get to paint it.
That was fun.

Alex (05:03):
What does the winner get?

Aaron (05:05):
The winner gets to pick a prize from their box.
They have like a box.
They have a paintingnight every week.
It's Dragon's Lair in Houston.

Alex (05:11):
Kind of sounds like going to the dentist.
When I was a kid, we'd go tothe dentist, when you were done
there was like a little box youcan go pick some things out of.

Aaron (05:18):
Exactly.
They still do that.
But yeah, that'swhat I'm doing today.
I'm building someWarhammer stuff.

Alex (05:22):
All right.
Well, that sounds like yougot an exciting Sunday,
in store for yourself.
And for the rest of you,you have an exciting next
chunk of time gettingto know David Gardner.
So hope you enjoyour conversation.

Aaron (05:33):
It's a really good episode, y'all.

Alex (05:35):
We'll see you on the other side.
Hello friends, and welcome tothis week's Fourth Curtain.
Today we are joined by someonevery special to me, a true
gaming industry heavyweightMr. David Gardner from the
early days of ElectronicArts and leading Atari.
Wow, you don't- you never hearthose two in the same sentence.

(06:01):
Like that's- that's pretty huge.
And now, running London VenturePartners, David's career
spans decades, genres - Ithink you've seen it all.
And you know, we're tryingto show you some new stuff
too, with our studio.
We'll talk aboutthat in a little bit.
He's been recognized asan Officer of the Order
of the British Empire.

(06:22):
I kind of know what that is,but maybe you can kind of-

Aaron (06:26):
Are you a knight?

David (06:27):
I'm not.
I'm not a knight.
I'm just a couple notchesunder and it's the most
disappointing 'cause every,particularly Americans, everyone
goes, "You're a knight?" Andthen I have to back down the
ladder a couple more notches.

Aaron (06:41):
Like a squire?

Alex (06:43):
It's knights, squire, and then what's under?
Is it serf?

Aaron (06:46):
Peasant?

Alex (06:46):
I don't know.
We'll get to it.
Okay.
We'll get to it.
He was appointed theVP of Games for BAFTA.
Is that still a gig of yours?
It is, isn't it?

David (06:57):
It is, it is, yes.

Aaron (07:00):
Oh, okay.

Alex (07:00):
Which is also pretty amazing.
And at LVP, he's backing someof the most innovative studios
in the world, including mine.
Ours, Aaron.
Last time you were over here,we were chatting and you told
me a little bit about your pastand it was not the past that
I would've made up for you.

(07:20):
So it's- I'm really excitedto have you as a guest.

Aaron (07:24):
I wanna hear about Atari too.
That's like, yes.
Like what part of Atari?
Because Atari hashad many lives.

David (07:30):
Yes.
Oh

Alex (07:32):
Atari is maybe the most unique company in the
game industry in terms ofbeing a nine lives act.
Yeah.

David (07:39):
Yeah.
Oh, it's my first game loveand my heartbreak and all- all
of those things all together.
But, yeah.
Do you wanna start with Atari?
Do we jump in?

Aaron (07:48):
No, I mean, we can if you want.
What came- yeah,what was the order?
Was it Atari, thenEA or EA then Atari?

David (07:55):
Well, it's an Atari sandwich!
When I was-when I was a kid andthe 2600, you know, was out.
And then of course theyjust, I say of course, but
not everyone may know, butthey launched Atari 400s
and 800s the computers.
And I- they really likedtalking to me because I had

(08:15):
sold my Apple II to have themoney to buy an Atari 800.
So I was a bit of aposter kid for them.
And so I used to hang out withthe Atari leadership a lot.
I lived in Las Vegas, butthey were up in Sunnyvale and
they- there's a longer storybehind it, but eventually
I ended up doing tradeshows and events for them.
And I was a bit of amascot, is what some of the

(08:38):
marketing folks called me.
So I used to hang out with[them], and through that, going
to the Consumer Electronics Showfor Atari, I met Trip Hawkins,
who founded Electronic Arts.
And Trip hired me, and Iwent to EA which was the
right move because of course,Atari crashed and burned.
And then my CEO of Atarijob, which came decades

(09:00):
later, was to try to pullthem out of the lost lands.

Alex (09:03):
We gotta go a little deeper on that one, in a minute.
But, one thing that Imade a note of is, I don't
know if you know this, I'mguessing you don't because,
you would have to listen tobasically our entire catalog,
which is not a bad idea.
I, yeah, I recommend it.

(09:25):
I recommend it to anybody.
But you're, you're one ofthe most mentioned names.

David (09:30):
Weird.
I'm surprised.

Alex (09:32):
Peter Molyneux tells a story, in the episode
where he's on, about howbasically you discovered him.
And-

David (09:40):
Oh my goodness, I thought he was gonna tell the story
of when I blew up his monitor.
'cause I plugged it in to his,his US voltage into UK cable.

Alex (09:46):
He didn't, but you could tell it!
Did that happen?

David (09:51):
I still feel a little bit guilty.

Alex (09:54):
But, you do get mentioned a lot, you know, in your role
now, like as an investor anda partner in a venture fund.
You are kind of asuper connector too.
I mean, you have thisincredible network.
And, I'm just- is that a thing?
Like, is that likea personality type?

(10:16):
Not like collectingrelationships, but I guess
valuing them, you know, andknowing how to- it's more
than just networking, youknow, it's sort of like-

David (10:25):
Well, it doesn't have to be, but I hope it is.
I mean, I find I'm excited bypeople, so new people, hearing
about what they're passionateabout, what their skills are.
And one of the lessons Ilearned, I think in management,
through my years at EAwas how it takes a team.

(10:47):
And how often, you know, tobe a good leader, you have
to be a good servant and getthe heck outta the way and
enable it for other people.
Because, you know, some peopleare making some incredible
game or some people have someincredible, you know, kind of
marketing campaign or like, youknow, the branding around EA
sports, that was an incrediblepiece of work that endures,

(11:08):
to, you know, until today.
And so there are lots of people.
So I, I do love- and I lovedinternational- I mean, I
am an American, came from,you know, being born in
Long Beach and da dah, dah.
But I love the world.
I love international.
I live now in Europe.
I came to London to set up EAall those years ago, and it

(11:28):
was the most exciting thing.
And it still is exciting,every time I go to a new
city, it's- I'm so excited.
And, yeah, I just love that.
So I think I would answeryour question to say, there
is some personality in it.
It is something that bringsme energy and joy, so
it's easier for me to do.
And I love, whenever I'mhearing- I was on a call today
with a portfolio company and youknow, they're trying to figure

(11:50):
out, you know, what, what'sthe kind of current way to
handle app store optimization?
So when people search,you get discovered.
I was like, "oh, these threepeople, you gotta talk to these
[people], it'll be so good."You know, and they're
gonna feel good becausethey're helping you.
I feel good becauseI've helped connections.
So it's- it is my dopamineis helping make connections.

Alex (12:08):
Yeah.
That's interesting.
It's like, I wonder if- a lot ofthe things that I do from like
a problem-solving, like mindset,like entrepreneurship often
is a lot of problem solving.
You know?
You get yourself in scenariosthat aren't- weren't
necessarily on the plan.
Okay, what next?
Same with like coding, is thatit's a lot of problem solving.
Even cooking, you know,it's like something didn't

(12:30):
kind of get- it's toosalty now what do I do?
and I just, I kindof wonder if maybe-

David (12:35):
Lemon juice.

Alex (12:35):
Maybe like when you're in a conversation- Yeah,
you never have that problem.
'cause you have, you probablyhave your own chef, you know?

David (12:40):
No, no.
I love cooking, but I wasgonna, I said lemon juice.
I think lemon- add lemonjuice to cut the, more acid.

Alex (12:45):
Okay.
There you go.
Perfect.
Like when you'd have, oryou're in a conversation with
somebody, when anybody's ina conversation with somebody
and they're kind of likesharing a problem they're
trying to solve, I imagine somepeople's reaction might be,
"oh, well if you do X and Ythat might fix your problem."
Whereas maybe your go-to is"I know like four or five

(13:09):
people who are the best atsolving this problem, and
I can connect you to them."

Aaron (13:16):
Is that how you were in like school too?
Or is that something you,you know what I mean?
Like, were you like settingup friends and, "oh, I know
who you should hang out with!"

David (13:24):
School was tough for me.
I did not enjoy school.
In fact, I didn'tcomplete school.
So I'm a high school dropout.

Alex (13:31):
Well we had- this is an often-debated a topic for
us about the value of theexpensive, higher education.
And I- it has changed overthe years, but, I would love-
So you didn't go to college,sounds like you sort of
tapped out in the highschool years, 'cause you
got really close with Trip.

(13:52):
Is that.
Is that, that age, or later?

David (13:53):
Yeah.
I finished- I kind of stoppedgoing to school around 15.
I was working in the localcomputer store and, you
know, increasing my hoursand going more and more.
And they were like, "Hey,aren't you supposed to be in
school?" "Yeah, yeah, I have to.
Sick day." You know, Ikept making up excuses
until finally I got busted.

Alex (14:12):
Where was that?

David (14:13):
That was in Las Vegas.

Aaron (14:14):
Oh, cool.
What were youdoing in Las Vegas?

David (14:17):
Well, we had moved.
My father had died in- welived- we started in LA then
my dad hit retirement age.
He was a school teacher in math.
And, so I didn't know, but myfamily's from Mississippi, so
we moved back to Mississippi.
I was like, "what are we doinghere? This place is awful."
They have, you know, eightpeople on the same phone number.

(14:41):
We had party lines.
We had- there was- we were-we lived literally on a farm.
There was no technology aroundother than the propane gas
tank, which I would open upand freeze the grass and kind
of experiment with things.
And I would write toHewlett Packard to get their

(15:01):
incredible catalog, whichwas like an encyclopedia.
It was a hard bound book.
And I would anxiously wait.
It would take a few weeksand it would come in
the post, in the mail.
And, and it was... Yeah, itwas- I probably shouldn't say
porn, but it was like, youknow, it was digital porn.
And I looked through everypage and had all these weird

(15:22):
measuring instruments, but theyhad programmable calculators
and I saved up to get my, youknow, HP and, anyways, where
am I heading with that story?
Oh, we were in Mississippi'cause of my dad and then he
died, and my mom was like,"let's get the heck outta
here." And I said, "yes, let'sget out!" So we are heading
back to the West coast andmy mom stopped in Las Vegas,
we were taking the U-Haulacross the country, and she

(15:43):
said "49 cent breakfastsand houses for 50,000?
We found home!"So we just stayed.
So Las Vegas?
Yes.
And actually wasn't a bad place.
I mean, it continuesof course to grow.
And I've got friends that wereliterally from high school,
like the Westwood guys andthe computer store was a

(16:04):
bit of a hub for all of us.
But it was all the big showsat the convention centers.
So we had CES, we had Comdex,which is- Comdex has gone,
but CES continues to thrive.
And so that was a majornetworking moment.
And I used to sneak in, I was akid, I was too young, I wasn't
allowed to go in, but I wouldsneak in and meet companies.
I was obsessed withcomputers and companies.

(16:25):
Those were my two targets.
And, I would even go around,and- I can't believe I did
this and I wouldn't let myown kids do this now, but I
would take the bus downtown.
I was like, 12, and I wouldknock on the office doors and
say, "Do you have a computer?"And they would be a bit shocked
that some kid would- andthey would say, "well, yes"
or "no." I said, "Can I seeit?" And more than half the

(16:46):
time, they would be delightedand they would show me.
That is how I mademy connections.
And then I got introducedto- I went into City Hall.
They had some kind of mainframeand, you know, Telex, Teletypes
that had, you know, everythingwas coming out on paper.
And, his brother-in-law ranthe local computer store and

(17:06):
he said, "Oh, you should go toCentury 23 where the computer
store is, down on SpringMountain Road in Las Vegas."
So I started cycling down thereand that's where I got deep into
the whole world of computers.

Alex (17:18):
Wow.
And this was just, thiswas just you knocking
on doors and asking.

David (17:22):
Literally knocking on doors.
Yeah.

Aaron (17:23):
'Can I see your computer?'

Alex (17:25):
There's a lesson for you kids, "If you don't ask,
the answer is no." And don'tbe afraid to, you know- I
guess borderline creepy,but if you're 12, you know?

David (17:35):
Yeah.
I was pretty creepy.

Alex (17:37):
Yeah, you were pretty creepy.
Okay.
That's amazing.
Okay.

Aaron (17:40):
What would you do when they let you
in to see the computer?
Like what happensin that moment?

David (17:44):
They would always talk, you know?
They were like this and that,they would explain and know
someone had more advanced, somehad CRTs, some had, you know,
some had the old mag tape, somehad rigid drives that were in
huge cartridges that had beperfectly air sealed and they
would be kind of dropped in.
And then I got a job at oneof those companies when a
few- when I was a coupleyears older and they were
selling PDP-11s, these digitaldecks, they were called DEC-

Alex (18:07):
In Vegas?
Oh yeah.

David (18:08):
-In Vegas, and I was writing code in DIBOL, which
was 'Digital's Business OrientedLanguage.' It was a COBOL clone-

Alex (18:14):
Whoa, I don't even know that- is that code?
It's a COBOL alternative.
Okay.

David (18:17):
Yeah.
And I can't rememberany of it now, but yeah.
Then I worked at the computerstore and you had to kind
of, to sell a computer, you'dhave to set someone's database
up and kind of do the basicprogramming for them to get it-
you know, kind of functioning.
But, it was the- I started beingreally interested in all the
computer things, and then asAtari started thinking about

(18:41):
computers, I literally startedevery day after school I would
call the phone number, I thinkit was a 1-800 number and I
called Atari, I had to gettransferred to the marketing
department and I'd have a newset of questions 'cause I'd
been reading and thinking.
And so I had a bunch ofquestions and they started
to know me by name andthey expected my call.
And that went on for months.
And then it wasJanuary coming up.

(19:03):
And they said, "David,we're coming to Las Vegas.
We'd love to meet you." Andthey were really so nice.
I mean, it's really crazy.
I had no idea I wasbeing a nuisance, but
I just wouldn't stop.

Alex (19:16):
How old was this?

David (19:17):
I was 15 and-

Alex (19:19):
This is 15, okay.

David (19:20):
And, at that time.
And then-

Alex (19:23):
Chutzpah! Chutzpah, that's what that was called.

David (19:25):
And then I thought, I'd better get some business
cards printed up becauseI thought, you know, I was
super serious about that.
I had not- so I got my cardsprinted up, 'Gardner Computer
Service', and then, I wentand met- I went to meet
the marketing departmentwho all knew me and they
were absolutely amazing.
I had to literally get snuckin because I was far too young.
You know, 18 was the minimumage, so they kind of hustled

(19:46):
me in the back and got me pastand I got to see the booth.
Oh my gosh.
That was so- the Atari booth.
Wow.
Oh my gosh.
And I think they hadlaunched Star Raiders, which
to me was the ultimate.
It still is the ultimate.
I had a- I may have lifted oneof the pre-production cartridges

(20:08):
to take home to my computer.
I don't, I dunno.
Which, I'm sorry for that.

Aaron (20:14):
Are you a gamer at this time or are you
just like a techie guy?

David (20:17):
I'm- You're everything, when you're at that part
of the industry, right?
Where the Apple II had justcome out, and the Atari 800
had come out and yeah, you'replaying games, you're writing
code, you're doing everything,you're trying to get the
cassette to load and somebodycomes out with a floppy drive
and you all that kind of stuff.
But the Atari peoplereally scooped me up.

(20:38):
They were transformative for-they actually introduced me
to the guy, Ray Kassar, whowas the CEO at the time.
And he kind of chuckledwhen I chatted with him and
everyone, you know now asI look back in my mind's
eye, I realize it was funnybecause a kid was acting so
precocious, but it got me a gig.

(20:59):
They then said, "Would you cometo Chicago and demonstrate our
computers?" I was like, wow,someone's taking me, you know?
So they paid for my ticketand I'd done my research.
I wanted to fly TWA 'cause theyhad an L-1011 Lockheed TriStar.
And I was into allthe geeky things.

Alex (21:17):
Wow!

Aaron (21:17):
Gold, man.
They gotta make amovie about you!

David (21:20):
They took me, they flew me.
They gave me, you know, like3 or 4 night, I forget the
name of the hotel on likeWacker Drive in Chicago.
And, maybe it was LowerWacker, I don't remember.
And we went to CES and atMcCormick Center and wow.
That was it.
I was- and then theystarted staying in touch.

(21:41):
And then there was a TV showbeing filmed in Las Vegas.
It was one of those reallybad daytime TV shows.
I think it was, Mike,gosh, what was he called?
I can't remember the name.
It might come to me, butit was one of those things
and Atari had sponsoredit, so I was brought on to
demonstrate Pac-Man and therewas this comedian named Rick

(22:01):
Taylor who was on there.
And so I'm on there as akid, and they gave me like
500 bucks to go buy clothes.
And I went down to the, youknow, the local- and that
started getting me involved inlike, you know, having to dress
up and do all these things.
So yeah, that started life.
And that's how I ran intoTrip at one of the shows.

(22:22):
And then Trip offered me ajob and I moved to Silicon
Valley and that was thebeginning of the new role.

Alex (22:26):
Wow.
Okay.
So, when did that happen?
When did you move to go start?

Aaron (22:33):
Yeah, where was the job?

Alex (22:34):
How old were you?

David (22:35):
So I was 17 when I went to- well, when I first met Trip,
I met him in Chicago at CES andhe was with a guy, named Bruce
Zweig, who had created- wasa creator of Lightning Type,
it was an early kind of touchtyping tutor on the Apple.
And I loved learning to type.
I thought that wasso- such a fun thing.

(22:56):
And, he came through.

Alex (22:58):
It's your favorite game genre, isn't it, Aaron?

Aaron (23:00):
What's that?

Alex (23:00):
Like House of the Dead?

Aaron (23:01):
Yeah, I love typing games.
Yeah.

David (23:04):
Typing games, like Mavis Beacon?

Aaron (23:05):
Yeah, like when you're going through a game and
it's like- or like through alevel and then a word comes
up, it's like, "livery" andyou have to spell "livery"
really fast and then it shootsthe character or something.
Or it like-

David (23:16):
Yeah, well it was not as advanced, but it was
heading in the direction.

Aaron (23:20):
Yeah, typing games are the best.

David (23:22):
And Bruce was this guy that came to the computer store.
And again, back to theconnecting thing, I always re-
I remember this guy, he was soexciting because he made games.
They were in Ziploc bags.
They had a hole punch inthe center so they could
be put on the peg, and itwas a photocopied color
thing of Lightning Type.
And at that time, can'tremember if it was on cassette
or CD or Floppy Drive.

(23:44):
But anyway, so I chatted withhim and he enjoyed the chat.
And then amazingly I ran intohim in the aisle of Chicago,
CES, and he was with thisguy who I didn't know, Trip.
And Trip was just finishing hisjob at Apple and just had this
idea for a new games company.
We had a big argument becausethere was a company that had

(24:06):
games for the Atari 2600, one ofthe first hacks into the system,
'cause it was a closed system.
But they figured out a way toput a cartridge in, have two
audio cassette leads come outand you could download your
games from audio cassetteinto the PRAM of this
cartridge and play a game.
And, Trip thought this was themost incredible thing and I

(24:28):
thought it was never gonna work.
And so we had a big argument.
And then at the end, Brucesaid, "How old is this kid,
do you think?" And Trip'slike "I don't know, 21, 22?"
And I had just turned 16,just had my driver's license.
So, it was then Trip said,"That's- you know, I really
enjoyed talking to you. I'mgonna hire you." He literally
said I was gonna hire you.
And I was so excited I wenthome to tell my mom, "I've got
a job!" But of course, I hadno way of getting a hold of

(24:48):
Trip, there was no internet.
No, you know, you coulddial director inquiries,
you know, maybe that was it.
But- And it was in COM inLas Vegas again, six months
later, there was COMDEX andI was walking the aisles
and I literally bumped intoTrip in the aisle and it

(25:11):
was like, there you are.
And didn't know how I wasgonna, and it was like fate.
I mean literallyfrom- so there you go.
So then I, then we exchangednumbers and addresses and
then I flew up to interviewin California and it was
a tough- there were onlyeight employees, so it was
a tough- I had to interviewwith everybody for two hours.
It took two days.

Alex (25:31):
Wow.
Okay.
So I gotta imagine those firsteight employees that you were-
became cohort with, probablysome notable folks in there.
Was- did that include the likesof like, Bing Gordon, and-

David (25:43):
Bing was there.
Yeah.
Bing, who stayedin the industry.
Tim Mott, who stayedand was big- I think
he started Macromedia.
He's done tons of things anddid venture, and I think he may-
I mean, I'm not sure Tim everretires, but he's always around.
A guy named Rich Melmanwho came outta VisiCalc.

(26:05):
He was there, he's a VC.
I guess that's what you have todo, you have to- I'm surprised
Trip didn't become a VC.
I think he would've beenextremely good at it.

Aaron (26:13):
But, what's the gig though?
So what did you get hired for?
What is your job?

David (26:18):
I was marketing analyst, and I was the only one that
actually had ever worked atretail, so I knew the margin
structures, the suppliers,I actually knew how the
stores worked and sold games.
So I helped set up the trade,the terms and conditions
and the trade thing.
And then I started trainingthe sales reps because I kind
of played the games and I'dhad some sales experience.

(26:39):
Then I set up customer service,which I absolutely, sadly hated.
But I started getting the firstinternational post through
and we got Telexes from ourdistributors needing help.
And so I started supporting theinternational crowd and that
was kind of really interesting.
And then my neighbors startedsaying, "oh, I went to, you
know, Europe one year," and thenI started hearing about these

(27:01):
other places in the world, whichI didn't really know about.
And I decided, oh, Ireally want to go do that.
And I had saved a lot offrequent flyer points on Pan Am
because back in the day, theyflew from like San Francisco
to the East coast and I wastraveling all around teaching
the reps how to sell the games.
And so I had enough points andI went on my first free trip

(27:22):
to London, and the distributorin London picked me up in a
Rolls Royce of all things.
Now, in hindsight,that was a bad move.
That shows they were making waytoo much money on our games.

Alex (27:35):
We need to have a talk about your wholesale cost.

David (27:38):
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.

Alex (27:41):
That's amazing- Alright.
Pan Am.
Okay.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
I'm glad you used thosepoints, 'cause yeah, because
they'll last forever.
So you come- you do yourfirst overseas trip and
you're how old at this point?

David (27:54):
I was, 19 I think?
Because I remember I was tooyoung to drink in America, but
I could order a beer and stuff.

Alex (28:01):
Wow.

Aaron (28:01):
That's how you can remember, that's so good.

Alex (28:03):
So, I mean, there is something really interesting,
just from that- I don't knowwhat this perspective is, but
Aaron, you and I talk aboutcollege a lot and David,
you didn't need it, clearly.

David (28:16):
No, but you know- so it's taken a long time to process.
I read that MalcolmGladwell book, I think it's
called Outliers, where hetalks about 10,000 hours.
Did you ever come across this?
Because he said-

Alex (28:26):
Yes.
I know the concept.
I don't think I read thatbook, but I know the concept.

David (28:28):
But he was trying to explain why do all the great
hockey players in Canada, whywere they born- I can't quite
remember how the logic goes,like September to November,
but it's because when they gofor the trials, they are the
oldest physically, and thenthey are more able compared
to the younger ones, and thenthey get selected, and then

(28:49):
because they're selected,they then get the most
number of hours of training.
And he then starts usingthat example in lots of
scenarios including Bill Gates.
And Bill Gates hadaccess to compute.
He was- he had accessto computers, he
had time and money.
And then because partly of, Iguess what, his dad was like a
lawyer and they had computers.

(29:09):
And then at the university,he kind of didn't go to class
and went to computer hall,you know, to computer lab.
And it was the same for me.
I had access, it wasthe very beginning.
I mean, I literally, I metSteve Wozniak selling Apple
IIs in LA and I boughtlike serial number 2,500.
He was, I mean, he was kind ofa somebody because it was cool,
the Apple II, but he wasn't whathe, you know, became, and you

(29:32):
know, jobs and everything else.
So it was, I used tohang out with the- no one
cared that I was a kid.
They cared that I had anApple II, so they would
invite me to all the clubs.
I was hanging outonly with adults.
And that just- I hadaccess and the time.
So I had my 10,000 hours as akid before, you know, like the
same time as the adults weregetting their 10,000 hours.

(29:52):
So I just got sucked into thething with everybody else.

Aaron (29:56):
I just wanna say David, that's a nice
explanation, but school sucks.

David (30:02):
I hated it.

Alex (30:03):
I was actually, I was thinking about
this this morning.
What a serendipitousconversation because I was just
thinking about my experiencein school and I needed it.

Aaron (30:12):
Yeah.
Some people need it.

Alex (30:13):
I was not ready at 17 to- I mean, I have some chutzpah.
I'm not afraid to pick upthe phone and call, but
I need the exploration tofind things that I like.

Aaron (30:27):
I'm just kidding.
I think school's importantfor- it definitely does
create a,like, a place forpeople to, you know, to
study and to work togetherand network and all that.

Alex (30:37):
It taught me how to think.
I'm definitely a differentperson after having been
in college than beforehand.
Just the way Ithink about things.

David (30:43):
Yeah I kind of sometimes wish I had gone to college,
but I- we did, you know,when we were a billion dollar
company making, you know,had all these executives,
I- we did some things.
I put a program together.
The California team went toStanford, we went to London
Business School, and I loved it.
I couldn't believe howexciting it was and how fun

(31:03):
it was to have that kindof learning environment.
And I sort of, I said,gosh, if I knew this was
university, I might've gone.
But everybody said, no, this iswhat graduate school looks like.
University is just gettingpissed and, you know,
going, you know, going crazyand doing all this stuff.
And I wasn't keen on that.
I was excited by the technologyand learning and business.

(31:24):
And school was too- Imean, school did one
good thing for me.
There was one class, wehad this- we had special
ed in our school system.
It was like code 54 on yourthing and 54 was the kids
that couldn't cope and thekids that were above average
and needed- they tried tocreate a special program

(31:46):
for, so I was in special ed.
And fortunately I wasgiven space to like, make
up my own course and Idid basic programming.
And it was a mistakebecause I thought it was
the basics of programming.
So I bought the book andstarted learning, and then
I found out, oh, it's thelanguage called Basic.
And, but I got to dobinary numbers and Basic.

(32:08):
That was my course.
And I was in sixthgrade, so I was 12.

Alex (32:11):
Wow.

David (32:11):
And I remember that very clearly.
And they had that kind ofweird program they were
trying to do and that kindof freedom was amazing and
that gave me some space.
But I don't like the factoryelement of school because
I think people learn atdifferent rates in different
ways and you know, I wishwe had a different system,
and maybe we will put moreflexibility with cohorts and

(32:32):
AI helping track and recommend-

Alex (32:34):
That's one thing that I think technology,
particularly, you know, theYouTube era was a huge learning
boon, I think, for a lotof people, myself included.
And I'm seeing the same thingwith AI, just as a research
learning, like self-directedexposure to knowledge, et
cetera, is very fascinating.

David (32:55):
Super fascinating.

Alex (32:55):
That's a whole- that's a whole topic, but, like
what was the early daysof EA? What was that like?
So, you got there.
It was nine people.
You increased the headcountby 12% when you were hired!

David (33:08):
Between my interview and starting, my interview
was, I think back in Novemberand I started January 3rd,
and so I was employee 11,so they hired a couple
people before me and, wow.
So, I mean, it was classicSilicon Valley startup as
far as I can tell, we hadbig backers, you know.
First of all the founders were,you know, Trip had gone both

(33:30):
to Stanford and to Harvard.
So, you know, he had firstclass education and he was
a senior executive at Apple.
So he was able to go sell theventure community on this idea.
And he based it on the MarshallMcLuhan theory of the kind
of different forms of media.
And he would tell the storythat, you know, first we had the

(33:52):
written word and that was huge.
And, you know, the Gutenbergpress, and then he talked
about, then we had radioand that was audio and that
kind of created, you know,the next big boom in media.
Then we had television,which combined, you know,
both visual and audio.
Now we have interactivityand that's gonna be
bigger than ever.
And it just wasn't, itwasn't for like 25, 30 years.

(34:15):
And it's like, you know,oh, you know, we're letting
everybody down, but nowwe have it on the chart.
We're still insecure about howbig we are, but we are by far
the biggest media, but we'renot numerically, you know, we
have very deep monetization.
That's why the total spendon games is much higher
than any other media.
But a big film still has moresocietal impact than a big game.

(34:38):
Although maybe GTA sixmay set the new record,

Alex (34:42):
I would not be surprised.
Yeah.

David (34:44):
But that was the- we- EA he was- Trip was and
is, you know, he's a geniusand he could preach it.
He- I was- I believedeverything and I loved it.
It filled the hole I had, andit was like purpose and we
had our speech, and it wasgetting that deep kind of,

(35:06):
drinking from that fire hose.
And then I came to Europe in'86 to start, well, to do some
research on what EA should do,but then ended up staying and
ultimately leading EA in Europe.
But it was, I had that imprintlike a duck, you know, that
was the- I did everythingthe way I was believed-

Alex (35:25):
The reality distortion field.

David (35:27):
Completely.
The reality that helearned- Trip, honestly.
He says it was Steve Jobsthat he learned it from.
He used to watch the amazementat the absolute master.
And I think thatwasn't always helpful.

Alex (35:42):
You know, I tell kids growing up that probably the
most important skill for themto learn if they wanna be-
do anything is how to sell.
How to sell your ideas,how to sell yourself.

David (35:52):
There's a lot to say about that.
And if you can sell withsome kind of authenticity as
well, it's super- that we'remissing- America has skyrocketed
incompetence around sellingand it's been late, I think,
to the authenticity party,but I think it's coming.

Aaron (36:06):
We'll be right back.
If you like what you're hearing,like and follow the show
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This special episode of theFourth Curtain is brought
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Alex (39:15):
You go over to start the European office?
Like how did you get that gig?
Like it is a little bit of ajump from, okay, I'm gonna-
I know retail, so I can helpset up the retail program,
I can help train customerservice to, I'm now going to
basically start the Europeanand run the European operation.
That's maybe that's oneor two ladder steps.

David (39:37):
Well, for this, about two years before that, I
ended up supporting all thekind of international sales
efforts from California, andwe were reaching a point where
we had to either renew ourlicensing agreement in Europe
or set up our own operation.
And we did decide.

(39:58):
They said, you don't- you'renot in a relationship.
You don't have any kids.
You're expendable.
You go.
Go for three months and justgo live over there for three
months and just go try tounderstand, you know, what is
this Sinclair Spectrum thing?
And, you know, why are theyputting games on cassettes
and what is the, you know, howdoes it all work, over there?

(40:19):
And so I was sent to Londonand, thank god, on an
expense account, because itwas expensive at the time.
And it still is, yeah.
And that again was anotherabsolute life changing moment.
It changed everything.
I just couldn't go back.
London was the first big city.
I mean, I'd been near SanFrancisco and you go to San
Francisco, but you realize it'sactually a little boutique city.

(40:41):
It's a- you know,it's not a city.
It's not like New York

Alex (40:45):
Not a metropolis, yeah.

David (40:46):
Not a metropolis.
And, anyways, it wasagain, just mind blowing.
And I went with all that fervor,both as an American, but I was
totally brainwashed by EA and soI was selling it and preaching
it everywhere out there too.

(41:07):
And we- everyone, youknow, kind of sniggered,
very British the way they-

Alex (41:14):
See now, like, so I've known you for a while and it
wasn't until you sort of toldme some of this backstory
that I knew that you like,came from Mississippi, which
I never would've guessedin a million billion years.
You're, British throughand through to me.

David (41:29):
Yeah, well technically I am British and most of my
life has been in Britain,'cause I moved at 20- I
think I just turned 21.
So.
You know, literallymost of my life.

Alex (41:39):
Oh right on.

Aaron (41:39):
Oh really?
You stayed.

David (41:42):
Childhood in America adulthood in-

Alex (41:44):
So you got off the Pan Am flight, ran out of
points- for your first threemonths and you're like,
eh, I don't need the pointsanymore, I ain't going back.
British now.
Where's the fish and chips?
Okay.
All right.
So, after the three months,was it then basically you
were starting a business here?

(42:04):
There?
I mean, basically did it fromground up or did they send some
more fo reinforcements for you?

David (42:10):
We did, yeah.
There was a very importantaddition because literally
I was a kid with no collegeeducation, so I think they
eventually thought 'maybe weshould have a grownup as well.'
And they sent over Mark Lewis,who had been at the company
for a few years and had done avariety of jobs, including being
a producer of some of the games.

(42:31):
And he was a grownup.
But interestingly, he inhis childhood had done an
exchange year at one of theBritish boarding schools.
So he actually knewthe UK reasonably well.
And, so he came over and weshared a flat and started hiring
people and thinking about,you know, how to get games
converted to the differentformats and how to package them.

(42:55):
And we carried some ofthe same ideas, like we
were going to sell direct.
And one of the tenants,you know, EA had a few key
strategies and one was toown its own retail presence.
So it went direct to theretail stores, had its
own sales team, didn't usedistributors, we had some unique
packaging back in the day.

(43:16):
The first packages wererecord album style, so they
unfolded beautifully, butthey were- and the CD would,
well the floppy disc, buteventually the CD would just
slide into a pocket thatwas really beautifully done.
Incredible art.
We had like photographers fromthe Rolling Stones shooting the
artists and the cover pictures.

(43:36):
And so it was allvery art high-end.
And again, Bing was one of thehuge influencers in all this.
He was from- he had spent sometime in advertising and we just
had a very kind of moneyed,you know, we- I think we were
maybe the first gaming companywith venture capital as well.
There were like, Brøderbund-I know you talked about Mist,
but Broderbund was one of thecompetitors in Sierra Online,

(44:00):
but they were shipping thingsin plastic bags, until we-
you know, and then eventuallypeople went into full color
boxes and stuff like that.

Aaron (44:07):
Huge boxes.

Alex (44:08):
So for the kids, like back in- at this sort of
whole era of games, andthat lasted for a while.
You know, games were ofbought in a store, so they
were physically manufactured.
And this bit that you'retalking about, the direct
retail presence, is expensiveto do and very important.
Because what people don'trealize is that all that
merchandise, when you go intoa store and you see like a

(44:31):
big display that's filledwith, in the day, it would've
been a- you know, the firstversion of MAT or something
today at the supermarket it'syour snap pop or whatever.
That's all paid for bythe company that makes
it, so EA would be payingfor this shelf space.
And sometimes the stores, theydon't put it up right, they

(44:53):
don't put it in the right place.
And we used to have thesepeople called detailers.
We just- we would spend moneyto hire these people that would
go store to store and makesure the product was facing
the right way and none of itwas damaged, all this junk.
And it actually has a hugeimpact on what people buy.
Because it's, "My stuff isn'tat eye level? What are you doing

(45:15):
here, store retailer? Move myproduct up so it's eye level."
You know, all that kind ofstuff, which we don't deal with
anymore 'cause it's all digital.
But was a big part ofthe business back then.

David (45:26):
But that was part of the filtering system of,
you know, it reduced theamount of choice to something
discernible for the consumer.
Now we have whatever itis, a thousand games a
day if it's released.

Alex (45:36):
Infinite, we now we have infinite choice.
Which is-

David (45:38):
Yeah, so it's a mixed blessing.
I mean, I'm also for it.
I mean, we've certainly enjoyed,you know, it's been good news.
I mean, I was, you know, partof the early investment team
into Supercell and literallythey were 160 people, making
more profit than ElectronicArts because they had 12,000

(45:58):
people and they did it.
I remember we went to Japan,I'm kind of jumping around
here, but we went to Japanto launch Super Cell and I
had spent a decade trying toget EA in Japan correctly.
And, you know, it's employeeheavy and a nightmare.
And they went in, wespent one week there.
We hired one employee.

(46:18):
We did- they did a beautifuljob on localization and
partnered with GungHo who hadPuzzles & Dragons, and they kind
of did a collaborative event.
And with one employee in thateffort, they just ticked the
boxes on the Apple and Google,iTunes, and you know, Google
Play Store, and they did $65million in revenue in a quarter.

Aaron (46:40):
Wow.

David (46:40):
And it was like, wow, that was mind blowing.

Alex (46:44):
The times they have-a changed.

David (46:46):
And it was so much fun.
I mean, we- it was, you know,we had so much success, and
of course it was, you know,we nearly died, you know,
multiple times and all that.
I'm forgetting all the, youknow, the death defying stories.
But then eventually itjust started working.
You know, the industrystarted working.
The consoles started working andwe were- and all that stuff that
was dreamed about, which tookliterally 10 years to build.

(47:08):
I mean, everyone always forgets,everyone thinks, you know,
success is overnight, butyou have all the confidence
problems, you make all yourmistakes, all the things
you thought about that youthought were good ideas, a
lot of them are good ideas,but they just need time to
kind of get into orbit andfor the magnetic attraction
to start spinning powerfully.
And all the direct toretail, all that stuff.

(47:31):
At first it was super expensive,the company was losing tons of
money, it wasn't gonna make it.
And then we shipped Skyfox,which was Ray Tobey's kind
of flight game and boom,you know, we had a hit.
And there's nothinglike a hit to change the
fortunes of a business.
And, it was that- then theflywheel started turning and
then EA grew and grew and grew.

(47:52):
And for the longest time wasthe biggest games company.
So it was an incredible ride.
But not just because of the,I mean, the success certainly
helps because you have thatfeel good, that dopamine.
But for me personally,it was learning all
the cultures of Europe.
It was taking what wasEAs culture and trying to

(48:13):
knit together and stitchtogether this team, we had
1200 employees and trying toget them to be like EA even
though they spoke differentlanguages and we had different,
you know, kind of consumercultures and all of that.
And it worked.
And it was- we could putthe company first and we
used to go to, we did thingslike went to Club Med and

(48:35):
Disneyland and partiedafter we hit sales targets.
And it was amazing to watchthe team, the company culture.
And it was the mostgratifying thing.
That as I look back, I mean,we knew we were having a good
time, but if I look back, itwas like that was a once in
a lifetime opportunity, beingthat in that kind of growth.

Alex (48:54):
It was a special time and a special place.
So then what- how-so what happened?
Like the transition, yourpersonal transition from there
to Atari, was that the jump?
[It] was EA to Atari?

David (49:07):
Yeah, so EA continued to get bigger and then
they kind of sucked meback in after 20 something
years of being in Europe.
They said, come back, we needyou back in headquarters because
you and a number of others havea shot at being the next CEO.
But if you're not here,you know, learning at
headquarters, then, you know.

(49:29):
So I did feel like, notmy company exclusively,
but I was, you know, therefrom the founding days.
So I thought, well, itwas my duty, I should
go back and do that.
But I had no ideahow different it was.
I used to go- I literallywent back every month anyways
and you know, you have yourproduct review meetings and
sales forecast and everything.

(49:50):
So I was back all the time,but I was only back for like
48 hours and I'd go backto Europe and you'd kind
of go in and do your thing.
I'd had no idea the complexityof the politics and the
relationships back atheadquarters.I was in my own
little dominion over there.
Which no one-

Alex (50:05):
You had no politics in your organization.

David (50:08):
Well, I said that to people, "We don't have politics!
We don't agree, we don't thinkwe should have politics."
And they all laughed andsaid, you don't have politics
'cause you're running it!There's politics under you
and when you go over toAmerica, you're not running it.
Now you're in the politics.

Alex (50:21):
Wait, so this is after 20 years, so
this is now, what year?

David (50:26):
That was in the early 2000s.

Alex (50:28):
Early 2000s.
So this is- who was- Isthis the Riccitiello era?
Or not quite yet?

David (50:35):
So Riccitello had left, I had survived the first
wave of the Riccitello era.
And I say that because hewas smart and hard charging,
we all had to step up.
And it was a hard charge, butthe company grew like crazy.
And so we learned a lot,and I was insecure 'cause I
thought, I'm gonna lose my job.
You know, this guy was abig packaged goods guy,

(50:56):
had launched all these bigbrands and I forget- I'm sure
he's been to some amazingbusiness school or whatever.
And I'm a high school dropoutand I've got this big job
running all of EA Europeand I don't wanna lose my
favorite thing in the world.
And so I was super intimidated.
But we, you know-

Alex (51:13):
Did you have a little imposter syndrome
because of that?

David (51:15):
Oh my lord.
So much.
I mean, I own it, by now.

Alex (51:19):
After 20 years, after 20 years of like, growing
that business to such success,still felt imposter syndrome.

David (51:27):
Completely.
Completely!And I kept running that.
I tried to go backto university.
I tried to go to school- goto London Business School
and get some, you know, getsome official teaching so
I can know what I'm doing.
So the- Larry Probst had- wasthe CEO of the whole business.

(51:48):
And so yeah, I came back towork for Larry, and quite a lot
of the old crew, really, NancySmith was running North America.
So these are people I'dliterally grown up with.
I mean, I was a kid andnow I'm whatever I was
50, 40 something, I guess.
And, you know, it was likebeing with family and it
was exciting to do stuff.

(52:09):
But there were a lot of otherpeople that were good, you
know, they were good at theirjob, but they were like,
they wanted the top job.
And so they were playing,doing power moves and, you
know, jujitsu's and thingsthat I just like, wow.
I wasn't, I was just thinkingwe're all, you know, I still-
I've drunk the Kool-Aid fromthe past, and I have to sadly
say it was very different.
I mean, I didn't appreciate,you know, how the company

(52:34):
had changed in many ways.
It's still very successfuland I, you know, it's gone
through, its kind of phaseslike all businesses do.
But I wasn't able to keep up.
I didn't have thedeft touch to do it.
And I was weirdly home-I say homesick, but I
was having reverse filtershock being in the States.

(52:55):
I loved California, I mean,an amazing place to live
up in the Bay Area, but I-there was this film that came
out about the Queen, and Ithink it was Helen Mirren
that was playing the Queen.
And I remember going down,there was a cinema down at
the end of Page Mill Road.
It was a kind of areally nice cinema at
El Camino and Page Mill.
I went into this big thing andit was reasonably well attended.

(53:17):
It wasn't a sellout andI saw the, the imagery
of Britain and I saw, youknow, the Queen and it was
being very seriously played.
And I heard all the Americanslaughing like, "oh, this,
how ridiculous!' And Ithought, this is the Queen!
You can't, thisisn't ridiculous!
And I sort of realized, Ithought, I don't know who
I am, I don't know where Ishould be, and I'm confused.

(53:39):
And so-

Alex (53:40):
Wow.

David (53:40):
We made a tough decision.
And my wife, who didn'twanna move to the- my wife's
British, she didn't wannamove to the States initially.
And, after three years, shewas like, no way am I leaving.
I had to pull her out likea cat with her claws out.

Alex (53:54):
Okay.
So you kind of flipflopped on that.
Okay.

David (53:57):
Completely.

Alex (53:57):
That's- wow.
She's like, "this Californiathing is great! It's like,
it's not raining every day."

David (54:03):
Yeah.
And she just had the best friendand Key was her- amazingly her
best friend from British- fromUniversity in Britain had moved
over because her husband wentto Stanford for business school
and they ended up staying.
So she had her best friend ofall time, she made all kinds
of new friends and Americans,compared to the Brits, are
very open to new people.
So, she just made tons offriends and had a great time.

(54:25):
Anyways, my kids though,started with English accents
and ended up with weirdAmerican twangs, so I also
thought, maybe it was time tokinda get my old kids back.
So I took everyone home.
They- I gave my wife whatI call the golden ticket.
I said, if after you'rebeing back in England,
you're not happy, youopen the golden ticket.
We'll go wherever you want.

(54:46):
So she, she reluctantlymoved, and the kids for five
years all cried about it.
But they, now they'repleased that they-

Alex (54:54):
All right, so you're back in the UK.
So you basically, youjust decided to move
back and leave EA.

David (54:59):
Unemployed.

Alex (55:00):
That was a decision.
It wasn't like, I'mgonna go somewhere else.
It's like I'm going totime out, pause on things.

David (55:05):
Nope, I just thought I'm going to get back to
the UK, figure it out.

Alex (55:08):
So that was a life choice for you?

David (55:10):
That was a life choice and probably confused- I
remember the ambassadorphoning from Britain to say,
I was going to be given thisOBE, which you just mentioned
on the opening remarks,which is not a knighthood.
I didn't get the right,you know, the top one.
And, I remember feelingvery ordinary in California
because the Silicon Valleysis rammed with talent.
Right.

(55:30):
And, I get the call fromthe Queen, I mean the
Queen's representative.
Yes.
And by the way, the certificate,which is kind of signed by
the Sovereign's Command.
It's quite a- to orderthat, you know, this
person being nominated.

(55:51):
But anyways, I felt likethey want me, I don't
feel like I have anythingto add to California.
It's just rammed with talent.
But, you know, Britain is still-

Alex (56:03):
You felt valued?
Yeah.

David (56:05):
I could, yeah.
So.

Alex (56:06):
You know, there's something about that.
There's something aboutlike calibrating your
own, like- 'cause I feelthat way about Chicago.
Like, I didn'tgrow up in Chicago.
I moved to Chicago.
I found my place inChicago, and I feel like-

David (56:21):
You found your place.
That's it.

Alex (56:23):
I love that place and that place loves me.
And yeah, I really likeit out here, but I sort of
feel like I- kind of of careless if I was here or not.

David (56:34):
Yeah, I know, I know.

Alex (56:35):
Whereas I can hear the cheering when I get off the
plane in Chicago, you know?
I know it's nothappening, but I can.

David (56:41):
But it's amazing how that, we all work to find
our place, whether it'sin industry or location or
family or whatever it is.
It's true.

Aaron (56:48):
Really curious, you're employee 11 at EA, did you
own part of EA? Like didyou get like, shares in the
company and did they- becausethey, I know they split
like crazy over time, right?

David (57:00):
Amazingly, that was one of Trip's, founding principles.
He was like, our employeesare gonna own this company.
So we had stock, we hadstock options, and that was
starting to become the newthing in Silicon Valley,
which now is pretty common,but not necessarily everyone,
even though I was low on thetotem pole, I did get shares
because at that time everyonein the company got shares.

(57:23):
And yeah, I mean it did, itdefinitely paid out, over
the 25 years that I was at EA'cause the company went public
and then, you know, then itgrew and I was not quite half
the revenue of the company,but none of the- I mean all of
like, saying it in a positiveway, all of the kind of senior

(57:45):
team started getting onto theregular kind of stock option
program and stuff like that.
So I had some freedom tobe able to say, I needed- I
wanted to work and, you know,we'd have to obviously trim
down expenses if I didn'twork, but it was possible.
It was a good learningfor- but also for startups,
which is start controllingyour cash flow when you

(58:06):
don't have income, right?
So that was a mistake, I'vespent a year not controlling my-
I said, and then we had to likeget rid of everything cashflow
negative except my family.
You know, everything else.
Get rid of all the toys,all of the, you know, all
the expensive hobbies.
Stop, stop, stop.

Aaron (58:22):
I can't do that.

David (58:24):
But I started investing because I thought, you
know, it was interesting.
I had done a little bit andthen I started meeting VCs.
I met the original VCs thatinvested in EA and they
had some very good advice.
And then I started meeting theVCs in Europe and I thought,
okay, well Europe is probablynot as far ahead on VCs, so

(58:46):
maybe my kind of Silicon Valleyexperience would be useful, and
particularly the gaming side.
So I started pitching VCs,"Hey, you should do stuff in
games and you know, I couldcome help you do that, I know
the games industry." And Ididn't know it that much about
VCs, so I got a lot of lunches.
But what I came to realize lateris that no, VCs don't really
want to hire people because theyhave to then divide the pie.

(59:08):
They want to kind of use peopleand kind of use your expertise,
kind of bring you in- around-bring you near the tent,
but not kind of in the tent.
Because if you're not helpingthem raise capital or you kind
of have unique access to dealflow that they don't otherwise
have, they just kind of keepit, kinda keep it in house.

(59:30):
So that's why venture firmsare typically quite small
in their partnerships.
And so while I was workingon that, I got- a recruiter
called me to say, "Hey, wouldyou join the board of Infogram
who owned all the Atari marks?"And I said, nah, I don't wanna
join the board of Infogram.
That company's really messed up.

(59:51):
And they said- then they calledback and then they said, "Would
you consider being the CEO ofAtari of infogram?" And then
I knew they had all the Atarimarks, and then I had this
terrible confusion in my heart.
I was like, "Atari needs me tobe the CEO. This is my job."
And so I did something whichI shouldn't have rationally

(01:00:12):
done, but I did because Iwas so in love with Atari.
And so I found myselfin Leon France,
at Infogram as the new CEO,trying to turn it around.
And I have to just behonest and say I didn't.
It was very hard.
About a year into it, Ihad lunch with Larry, who

(01:00:34):
was still the CEO of Atari-I mean Electronic Arts.
I trying to tell him the AtariInfogram story and I said,
Larry, I figured something out.
My life at Electronic Arts waslike being born in Disneyland,
in Anaheim, and growing up andthinking it's sunny every day.
There's no crime.
There's the smellof fresh paint.

(01:00:55):
Everyone's happy and thenone day you get thrown out
of the gates and you're leftin, you know, kind of gang
wars on the streets of LA.

Aaron (01:01:06):
That's Atari.

Alex (01:01:07):
Oh man.
That- Atari- Infogram wasComp- is Compton, huh?
To EA's Anaheim.

David (01:01:13):
Exactly.
The biggest wake up callwas, we had a big game
release called "Alone inthe Dark," which was one of
the pretty good franchises.
And we had the sales forecast,and I'm kind of slightly making
up the numbers because I don'tremember exactly, but it was
like for 3 million units.
I was like, that's great.
You know, maybe we shouldbuild, you know, we don't
wanna run out, but we don'twant to overshoot 'cause

(01:01:35):
you have to write off thatinventory if it doesn't sell.
So, you know, maybe let'stry maybe just over 3 million
units and they said, oh, wellwe don't have any lines of
credit with the manufacturingcompanies, so we have to prepay,
for any units, and we onlyhave enough cash to build like
a million and a half units.

(01:01:56):
I was like, oh mygod, cash is king.
And at EA when we neededcash, we called up the
treasury and said, you know,we just signed Formula One,
wire over 5 million bucks!And then you know,
48 hours later it wasin the bank account.
This was my first experience ofrealizing, okay, because when
I was kid at EA, when peoplewere worried about cash flow, I

(01:02:16):
didn't have to think about it.
Suddenly, I'm in the hot seat.
So, yeah.
It was a real tough couple ofyears and we ended up- I was
trying to pivot the businessfrom old school to Atari
being- I wanted atari.comto be the place to go.
You would go put that in yourbrowser and play games, and

(01:02:37):
we were trying to buy Unity,which at that time was just
kind of getting some traction.
I thought Unity would be likethe virtual console people could
develop in that environment.
We would publish, at, onthe atari.com website, and
we'd be a pure digital play.
The brand in the top- thelist of the world's top 100

(01:02:57):
brands, it was in the top75 and there had been no
marketing money spent on thebrand for like two decades.
It's an incredible brandand it, you know, so it's
such positive affiliation.
I thought it wasgonna be amazing.

Aaron (01:03:12):
What year is this?
This 2008?

David (01:03:14):
2008 through...
so 2000 maybe?
No, maybe oh- 2009 to2011, but yeah, roughly.
Yeah.
That zone thatyou're talking about.
Yeah.
So we tried and it, we-oh, it was 2008, you're
right, because that was aglobal financial crisis.
I started right at the beginningof that year and, we needed
to raise like 150 millionbucks or something to turn

(01:03:36):
it around and then, you know,world crashed and we couldn't-
it was hard to raise it.

Aaron (01:03:39):
That is a good idea though, because everyone-

Alex (01:03:41):
It is a good idea.

Aaron (01:03:41):
The browser, like Unity browser.
Yeah, I think thatcould even work now.

David (01:03:46):
Which is how I met Unity and then I started-
I invested in Unity.
This is how I starteddoing the investing piece.

Alex (01:03:52):
Okay.
So that kind of got you backinto your- the thinking of
maybe I should be investingin helping people that way.

David (01:03:59):
That's right.
And I'd invested in a small teamthat ended up doing so well.
They were called Playfishand they were building
games on- inside theFacebook canvas, I think.

Aaron (01:04:08):
Yeah, they have some other games.

David (01:04:09):
And I was doing the Atari CEO job.
I invested also in KristianSegerstrale's business.
And they were like, makinghuge strides every month.
And I was like, I'm turningaround a broken ship that's
half on fire and trying todeal with inventory problems
at retail and the minute retailsense that- I was trying to
be the good guy and take backthe stuff that wasn't selling

(01:04:30):
and, 'cause that's what we didat EA, and I didn't realize
I didn't have a balancesheet big enough to do that.
And so we sailed very closeto bankruptcy and I thought,
"Great. My first CEO job andI'm gonna bankrupt a public
company. That sounds reallygood."

Alex (01:04:46):
Yeah, that retail and distribution business is rough.
I mean, yeah they smellblood in the water.
That's- I don't miss it.
I don't miss that part of it.

David (01:04:54):
I don't either.

Alex (01:04:56):
So, I think we're just finally getting to
your investment career.
We've already gone a littlelong, butyou have had some
incredible, hits, relationships.
And, you know, I loveworking with you guys.
It's just so smartand supportive.
But I mean, you talkedabout Supercell, Playfish.

(01:05:18):
What were some of theearly investments that
you were involved in?
How'd they happen?

David (01:05:22):
Yeah.
So, I think the very firstinvestment in the game space
I made was a company calledNatural Motion, which started by
making animation tools, kind ofvirtual data- virtual synthetic
motion capture data, and some-and then they started using
some of their own tools to buildsome of their own games, and

(01:05:43):
then started having some hits.
And eventually-

Alex (01:05:46):
CSR Racing, right?
That was- they published that.

David (01:05:48):
It eventually led to CSR Racing because that was when
the App Store first opened, theyhad a monetization strategy.
So it was one of thefirst big great big hits.

Aaron (01:05:57):
Dude that game was great, yeah.

David (01:05:58):
And Zynga bought that company, which was fantastic,
and started making youthink, gosh, it's so much
fun watching entrepreneurs,sweat it out and stress, you
know, I can kind of go in,give 'em some good advice,
buy 'em a dinner, and then gohome and play with my kids!
And then, you know.

Aaron (01:06:17):
That's cool.

David (01:06:18):
And so we started seeing success and it
was an amazing vintage.
You know- the vintage term,used not only for wine,
but also for like companiesand eras and so, gaming.
Most of the big VCs werenot doing much in games.
They didn't- they they did inthe past and it didn't work out.

(01:06:41):
And Zynga, ironically, eventhough it was eventually a big
success, it kind of, it cameout and it was strong at first,
but then tanked, and then allthe VCs kind of thought, oh,
this is a hits driven- The oneliner was, "It's a hits driven
business and we can't pick thehits, so we're not investing."
And then I would counterto say, "Yes, it's a

(01:07:02):
hits driven business.
You therefore build a portfolio.
Venture is a hitsdriven business.
You are playingthe hits business."
So that was the kindof confusion, they were
trying to do rifle shots,picking the winner.
And of course, guess what?
It's really hard.
And so we started- Istarted investing on my-

(01:07:23):
out of my own capital.
And then I realized that it wasreally hard for entrepreneurs
to raise from traditional VC.
So then it made sense tosay, well, maybe if we had a
dedicated fund for the gamesindustry, we, since we're kind
of pretend VCs, we're reallygame guys, let's merge these two
worlds and take our connections.

(01:07:43):
So, David Lau-Kee, whoEA had acquired beause
he built RenderWareand Burnout franchise.
So-

Alex (01:07:52):
Criterion right?

David (01:07:53):
It was the Criterion- exactly, it was the
company that had all those.
I really enjoyed him.
He was like the smartest personI had met at EA and he had
left, gone back to, well, hewas living in England, so I
thought, I'll meet up with Davidand you know, he's so smart,
he'll help me figure this out.
And so we got a little grouptogether to start raising
capital and our Rolodex wasreally the games industry.

(01:08:16):
So we had game companiesand kind of executives
that had made money fromthe games industry invest.
And we put our first kindof couple of funds together.
But during that builduptime we started investing
in Supercell, Unity, Imentioned Natural Motion,
and, you know, lots of others.
I think we've done about70 investments in total

(01:08:37):
over the kind of 12 years.
But who can remember the onesthat didn't work out right?
But you remember the oneslike the Supercell guys
were just unbelievable.
Not only the nicest people onearth, but I think the Accel
ended up investing and they saidit was the- and they've invested
in Facebook and all kinds of-it was the fastest company
to a billion dollars they'veever invested in, in history.

(01:09:00):
And you know, it was the gamesindustry, and so suddenly the
games industry was hot and nowtens of billions of pounds and
dollars and money have kind ofpoured into the games industry.
If you look at all theventure money, you know,
China, the US, Europe.
It's huge.
And then accelerated by COVID.

Alex (01:09:19):
Yeah, it's interesting.
You talk about- there was a waveof venture investing like in
the pre- Zynga IPO era that kindof got hot and cooled a bit.
And then, you know,kind of right around
COVID got hot again.
And it feels to me like maybeit sort of, post-COVID, it's
kind of cooled a little bit.
Is it coming back?

(01:09:41):
Is it gonna get hot again?

David (01:09:42):
It feels like it's coming back.
Well, let's see if it'smore sensible or not.
But,I think teams are- the big shift
is productivity of the teams.
They are building productsthat customers play with much
faster- We've been througha five year period where we

(01:10:04):
basically, the venture industrystarted funding huge game
development cycles, you know.
A hundred milliondollars in five years.
And even the big successfulgame companies don't do that.
They iterate with franchisesthey know are gonna work.
Very few people spend a hundredmillion plus on something that
they're just taking a flyer on.

(01:10:25):
And because you can't affordmany of those to go under,
and we've seen some famousones from, you know, big
companies, not make it.
And this is one of thecriticisms, but one of the
realities, but people are likesick of the franchise model,
but it's, you know, these arereal companies with real, you
know, real grandmas pensionfunds and they just can't throw

(01:10:47):
everything against the walland risk it all every year.
So, yeah.

Alex (01:10:51):
Not everything could be a moonshot.
Yeah.

David (01:10:53):
So it's changed, but it has- so we're in faster
cycle time now, people arequicker to profitability,
not necessarily quicker tounicorn status, but quicker
to survivability, which is adifferent, a different state.

Aaron (01:11:07):
What's unicorn status?

David (01:11:08):
Something that would, you know, be
worth a billion or more.
Like what Supercellturned into and what Unity
turned into, Supercelllike three years into it.
I mean, it was just,you know, crazy.
It's more typical that abusiness might take 10 years.
And you might know in fiveyears this is going to go
somewhere big, and then inanother five years, it is big.

Alex (01:11:28):
It's incredible to just think that all of this
history that we just talkedabout, from the putting it-
a floppy disk in a Ziplocbag, to multi-billion dollar
companies that are global, andhas more revenue than any other
media, that whole period oftime is like, a few decades.

(01:11:48):
You know?
And you compare thatagainst like every other
energy, transportation,any- every other industry.
It's like we're justgetting started.

David (01:11:55):
Yep.
Yeah.
But I mean, for- I don'tknow how long it was from
first flight to Concord.
Was it a hundred years?
That was- that's apretty cool timeline.

Alex (01:12:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Alright, David, what apleasure to hang it out.

David (01:12:08):
Thanks guys.

Alex (01:12:09):
Thanks again.
We'll see you around.

Aaron (01:12:10):
See you.
I'm telling you, they'regonna make a movie about that.

Alex (01:12:13):
How bonkers is that?
He would just go knockon doors in Vegas.
'Hey, you got a computer?
Can I check it out?'

Aaron (01:12:19):
Yeah.
You can see the montage like,doors slamming in his face
and this kid with his like,shirt tucked in and then he
is just like, and they- youknow- you know what I mean?
Like I could see it all.
Like someone, 'cause peoplewill probably be like, "Yeah!
you wanna see it?" And like,you know, and you could just
imagine the conversation,like them asking each other
questions and showing itoff and very interesting.

(01:12:40):
And that, the catalogyou talked about, did you
ever get any catalogs?

Alex (01:12:44):
Yes, I definitely, I was a fan of, I'm trying
to remember which catalogsthat I would get though.
Like, so for me it's like, someof those nerd catalogs, like
I remember in the early Bungiedays, 'cause we would do like
make the boxes and shrink wrapstuff, we would end up getting
these like, I don't know ifthey were Granger or Uline?

Aaron (01:13:01):
Or Uline?
Yeah Uline!

Alex (01:13:03):
These catalogs that had like- You could buy these like
plastic storage bins that lookedlike they were props outta Star
Wars and they were sneaking astackable and like, I have a
bunch of those in my basement.
They're so cool.

Aaron (01:13:14):
Yeah.
I still get the Uline catalog.
It's huge.
It's like very big.
It's like this big- andthey just send it to me.
The one that was a big onefor me was the Scholastic one.
Remember that one?
The Highlights?
It was called Highlights?

Alex (01:13:27):
Oh, yeah.
What was in that?
I remember Highlights.
But what was- theyhad a catalog?

Aaron (01:13:31):
It was, yeah.
They would give it to youlike three months before
they would show up at yourschool and they would set up
a bookstore in the school.
Remember that?

Alex (01:13:40):
Oh yeah, okay.

Aaron (01:13:41):
And then you could just be looking at the book
and like, oh, it was awesome.

Alex (01:13:44):
Really?
You were into that?

Aaron (01:13:45):
I love that stuff.
There were so many coolbooks in there, you know?
Like Berenstain Bears?
Or was it Bernstein Bears, huh?

Alex (01:13:53):
Yeah.
That's a Mandela effect, right?
That-

Aaron (01:13:56):
But I really liked the catalog era.
I kind of wish catalogswould come back, you know?

Alex (01:14:00):
No.
No, no, no, no, no.

Aaron (01:14:01):
You don't like that?

Alex (01:14:02):
Okay, you don't need this, you don't- I hate the
mail, you know, the US Mail?

Aaron (01:14:05):
Oh, I see.

Alex (01:14:06):
Whatever.
Like, I don't wanna say Ihate the US Mail, but like,
when I go to the mailbox,like, why do we do this still?
It doesn't make sense to me.
Like, why do we let, like- mostof the stuff that comes in the
mail, it's just complete trash,it goes straight in the garbage.
All the stuff.

Aaron (01:14:22):
Yeah.
It's like email though.
Email's the same way.

Alex (01:14:24):
Okay.
And it's annoying, butit's like, I'm not killing-
maybe we are killingtrees with email spam.
I don't know.
But like the stuff in my mailboxjust seems like a complete
waste of time to everybody.
I don't know why.

Aaron (01:14:35):
Yeah.
But imagine if you gotone nugget of gold.
Just one.
And it was that new Uline-he said his catalog was
hardcover, you know?

Alex (01:14:44):
Yeah.
That's like an encyclopedia.

Aaron (01:14:46):
Yeah, that's a good one.
Yeah.

Alex (01:14:48):
Probably had to pay for it.

Aaron (01:14:49):
Oh yeah, probably, right?
You had mail out for it.
Like you'd spend like10 bucks or something.

Alex (01:14:53):
Okay.
Well maybe this is like anice little business idea and
just, get into the printedhardcover catalog business.

Aaron (01:14:59):
Yeah! 'cause like, you know, like
right now, what are you into?
You're into tennis stuff, right?
You're into tennis stuff.
What are you into?

Alex (01:15:05):
Tennis, woodworking.
I love like, the woodworkingmagazines, you know, they
got all these ads in there.
I love lookingthrough that stuff.

Aaron (01:15:10):
Imagine a woodworking catalog that had all
the tools, varnishes-

Alex (01:15:15):
Yeah.
Grizzly.
Grizzly has this reallybig thick catalog.
It's got every-that's pretty cool.
Except it's not likeit'snot like I got so much stuff,
but it's not like, the superhigh end stuff, you know?

Aaron (01:15:27):
Well, you can get a really nice chisel, right?

Alex (01:15:29):
You can get an okay chisel.
You need the wood- you needthe woodpeckers catalog.

Aaron (01:15:33):
The woodpeckers catalog.
But I have a real question.
When I asked him about,I'm always curious- is that
tactful or not tactful,to just go, "Hey, did you
have stock in the company?"

Alex (01:15:42):
I think it's okay to be curious.
It is definitelyokay to be curious.
You just have to berespectful too, you know?

Aaron (01:15:48):
Yeah.
It's an interesting-'cause, like we've always-

Alex (01:15:50):
You're very respectful, dude.

Aaron (01:15:51):
You always get shares like, you know, I- like there
was people that I workedwith in LA, I knew a lot of
people that actually got,I think it was like half
salary of a normal person?
Like in that field?
But the other halfwas like, stock.
Like a lot of people, like I-and you know- like, he'd be
like- oh yeah, you know, I workat Amazon and like, he chose an

(01:16:12):
option where he wouldn't get,you know, and you know, I've
had that before in the past,but it's like with people that
EA- which is like huge, right?
Or Apple, huge.
You know?
These companies and youmeet someone that's in the
starting like- like Bing.
Do you know what I mean?
Do you just assumeor do you ask?

Alex (01:16:31):
You gotta know if they did pretty good.
Yeah.

Aaron (01:16:33):
Right, see?

Alex (01:16:34):
I mean- all right.
Well, thank you everybody forhanging out with us, for another
episode of The Fourth Curtain.
Enjoy the rest of yourweekend, and I hope you all
enjoyed this episode andwe shall see you next time.

Aaron (01:16:46):
See you later everybody.
Thank you for listening tothe Fourth Curtain Podcast.
Visit us at thefourthcurtain.comto find our monthly
newsletter and supportthe show via Patreon.
The Fourth CurtainPodcast is a production
of Fourth Curtain Media.
Lovingly edited by Brian Hensleyof Noise Floor Sound Solutions.
Video production bySarkis Grigorian.

(01:17:07):
Production support by KimyaTaheri, with Community
Management by Doug Zartman andArt Production by Paul Russel.
Thanks again for listening.

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