(16) S1E16 Rebuttal: The Nonviolent Position Devalues the Sacrifice of Soldiers

Episode Transcript
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Derek (00:01):
Welcome back to the Fourth Way podcast. We are
continuing with a look atrebuttals to non violence.
Starting in this episode, we aremoving away more from the
Biblical historical, rebuttals,and we're gonna take a look more
at the, philosophical or logicaland and emotional sorts of

(00:24):
rebuttals. So rebuttals thataren't really grounded in in the
Bible or or, historicalevidence, but more just, maybe
our our presuppositions orintuitions. So those those
deeper seeded ideas in us.
Today, we wanna take a look atthis question that is often

(00:45):
posed to, the nonviolent,adherence, which is, if you hold
a position of nonviolence, thenwhat does that do to this this
idea of patriotism? Andspecifically, doesn't that
devalue the sacrifice ofsoldiers? Isn't that that, like,
anti, anti soldier? Like, whatdo you think of people or or

(01:10):
anti cop? Like, it isn't that,just devaluing the sacrifice
that people make for us?
And before I get in intodiscussing this, I I do wanna
note that, that I am surroundedby individuals who I I highly

(01:32):
respect and value, who areassociated with the military or,
or the police force. My grandpawas was in the army. My mentor,
through middle school and highschool, somebody that I I
greatly respect, was in the AirForce. Two of my closest friends

(01:56):
from college are in the army. 1of my, roommates and high school
friends, roommate in college,was or is in the Air Force.
Our neighbor, when we'restateside, neighbor that we are
the closest to is, in the policeforce. 1 of our our very close,

(02:20):
friends is in the police, andlove hanging out with them and
and highly respect them. Andit's just absolutely impossible
to escape, from from our familyor friends or people that we
highly respect, in in society oror in our lives. It's just

(02:44):
inescapable that that there areindividuals who are in the the
armed forces or in the policeforce. And so when I, take a
position of nonviolence, I don'tdo it at all lightly, thinking,

(03:06):
without an understanding thatthis position is going to
inherently, in its ideology,essentially make some of the
closest people in our lives,maybe feel judged and condemned.
So I I understand that, and and,that is very difficult to do.

(03:30):
And that's why I hope, as as Idiscuss this, I can do it in a
nonjudgmental way, in a way thatthat seeks discussion, in a way
that that seeks, conviction.Certainly, I want to hopefully,
hopefully, be able to speak intointo other people's lives, with

(03:53):
truth. And, hopefully, I do sohumbly with an understanding
that I'm not right abouteverything and that there is a
lot of room for growth for metoo. So please understand that I
am not going to take any any ofthis lightly, but I'm sure that
in this episode, there will besome things that people might

(04:14):
take offense to, and I don'tmean to say anything in in an
offensive way.
Though, perhaps, some of thethings I do say will be will be
said, and will maybe bringconviction or judgment, in a
particular sense. So I I hopethat everybody is able to hear

(04:35):
my heart out on this and andunderstand where I'm coming
from. So let's go ahead and getto get to the first point. Does
do I or does the position that Iadvocate, does that demean
soldiers and police officers,and does that devalue their

(04:56):
sacrifice? And I wanna say no.
And and I I want to actually saythe opposite. And I wanna say
that I think nonviolenceactually elevates the sacrifice
of soldiers. And I know this isgonna sound really stupid
because you understand that Idon't think somebody should be a

(05:20):
a soldier in the first place. Sohow can how can my ideology
elevate the sacrifice of thesoldier? I I think maybe the the
best example of this is if yougo back to 1 of the first
episodes, I believe episode 4,where we talked about logic and

(05:41):
intuition.
I referenced a book called OnKilling There. And in that book,
the author, Grossman, goes intojust the the terrible ways that
killing somebody, ravages theminds of soldiers for the rest

(06:01):
of their lives. This aspect ofof killing somebody is a a just
a very terrible burden to bear.And if you don't think that
killing is problematic, if youthink that it is justified or it
can be justified, and that it'ssomething that's actually a good

(06:23):
to pursue at times, you mightsay, well, you know, it's the
it's a last resort. But, youknow, in some cases, it's a good
thing.
In fact, to to not kill would bea bad thing. You you wouldn't be
doing right for justice or for,the innocent. Then to have this
idea that when a soldier killssomebody, there's some mental or

(06:48):
emotional burden on them justdoesn't really make much sense.
Like, why would why would therebe a burden? They're justified.
K? No problem. The position ofnonviolence recognizes that this
is a huge burden. It's not justsome some mental mental block
that's that's there because youjust have to kind of get over

(07:09):
these, Victorian ideals of, youknow, of of morality. But it's
there because it's a God given,conscience issue because killing
is not good.
And so the the great, beautifulaspect of a soldier laying down

(07:30):
their life isn't the only thingthat I, as a nonviolent
individual, can, can recognizein a soldier. I can recognize
honor and bravery and and all ofthat, but I also recognize this
other aspect, the sacrifice ofchoosing to kill, which I I

(07:54):
don't think is a a good thing.But I recognize that people are
are so tied to this to the useof violence as a means to bring
justice and to protect theinnocent, that they sacrifice
this piece of them that is thatis damaging. And so, in that

(08:16):
sense, I see the sacrifice ofsoldiers as greater than, the
greatest patriots see, because Irecognize what all they are
sacrificing and willing tosacrifice. If you want a good
resource on this, I stronglyrecommend a book called Killing
from the Inside Out.

(08:38):
Like On Killing, it it does getinto, some testimonies of sort,
but it's less focused on howsoldiers get themselves to kill
and more focused on what happenson the inside of soldiers. Like,
what, what impact does killinghave on them? And it takes a

(09:02):
good historical look. It it goesa lot more into maybe, theology
and, psychology, in in differentaspects. It's just a a really
good look that also questionssome of these these just war
ideas and, assumptions ofmorality.
And and I think the ultimateconclusion of it is extremely

(09:23):
helpful, in that it says, youknow, even if you think war is
necessary, it doesn't mean thatwar isn't something that should
be repented of. And he givesexamples of people like
Bonhoeffer who, you know, didsacrifice this moral ideal in
order to, in order to dosomething that he thought he

(09:44):
needed to do, even though hefelt he'd need to repent of it.
And that's been been kindasomething that's been true
throughout the ages of a lot ofChristian thinkers that, you
know, even in war up until thelate eleventh century, they
would even have to do penancefor killing somebody in a just
war. And so he goes into justthis idea of, of what they call

(10:10):
moral injury. You know, you'renot only physically injured, but
you can be morally injured.
And it's just a a veryinsightful book that I think
would be helpful. It's a littlebit, deep, but it's it's very
good. And I I think after youread that book, and there are
also some other books you cansearch on on Amazon or somewhere

(10:31):
else that deal with moralinjury. I think when you look at
that and you recognize theinjury that many soldiers go
through, not from beingphysically wounded or having
their lives put in danger, butfrom having killed or seen
killing done or been a part ofit in some way, I think your

(10:53):
respect for for soldiers goes upand your understanding of their
sacrifice goes up as well. Pointnumber 2, while while I think
there are plenty of ofindividuals out there who are in
the armed forces or in thepolice force, who, who are

(11:17):
seeking the welfare of the city,who do want to protect the
innocent, who do wantreconciliation, I nevertheless,
I think they go about this thewrong way.
So the nonviolent position isgoing to say that, God's way is

(11:39):
to sacrifice, but it's tosacrifice self. And so while I I
pointed out in in, point 1 thatI can recognize the great
sacrifice of soldiers, And and,in fact, I think their sacrifice
is even greater than than whatmost people recognize it to be.

(12:03):
I think the issue is thatsoldiers and police officers,
and and those who, are willingto use self defense and violence
on other people, I think theproblem is that those
individuals don't go far enoughin their sacrifice. And I I know

(12:25):
that that's almost like asacrilegious thing to say in our
society that, you know, the lifelaid down by a soldier or a
police officer isn't the theultimate, the ultimate thing.
But I think the nonviolentposition also advocates the

(12:48):
laying down of one's life, andwe can see that in in a lot of
the examples that that, weregiven in episode 5 of, you know,
Martin Luther King Junior,Sophie Scholl, just, Desmond
Doss, people who are willing tolay down their lives.
But, what they are not willingto do is sacrifice even their

(13:13):
enemies. And the thing withwith, soldiers and police
officers is that they dowonderful things trying to
protect people, and they havethis this great, this great
courage and honor, and it it isbeautiful. And, I mean, I gotta

(13:34):
admit, I like movies like, ThePunisher or Saving Private Ryan
or things where bad people getwhat what I feel they deserve
and where good people are saved.I I wholeheartedly understand
that. But the the logic of thekingdom is is different, and
that is that we are willing tolay down our lives, and we are

(13:57):
not willing to sacrifice othersin order to accomplish what we
think is good.
And, you know, you you couldjust say, well, you're not in in
the military, and so you'reyou're that's just not,
something that you wouldunderstand. And you can call me

(14:19):
ignorant and whatever you wannacall me. But let me point you to
somebody who was in the militaryand was the the manliest man as
far as, you know, this thismacho understanding of of,
masculinity goes. And that'd beGeneral Patton. And if you've

(14:42):
ever seen the movie Patton, it'spretty awesome.
I mean, it's it's I love themovie as a pacifist, and, it it
it's awesome. But the the bestpart of the movie, in my
opinion, is the the openingwhere Patton has his speech. And
it's a magnificent speech. It'sso magnificent. I actually have

(15:02):
it in my iTunes.
It's it's 1 of my, like,favorites, so I get to listen to
it every now and then mixed inwith some songs. And, Patton, in
his speech, kinda makes my pointfor me where he says he makes
this quote. He says, no dumbbastard ever won a war by going

(15:23):
out and dying for his country.He won it by making some other
dumb bastard die for hiscountry. And that's just that's
just a beautiful quote that thatsummarizes my second point here.
When you are when you advocatefor violence, your goal is not

(15:44):
the laying down of your life.It's beautiful that you're
willing to lay down your life,but your goal is to make some
other dumb bastard die for yourideal rather than you dying for
your ideal. If you die, that'skinda collateral. It's something
that might come with theterritory. But your goal is to
really make somebody else diefor your ideal.

(16:08):
And as a as a Christian, as aChrist follower, as somebody who
thinks that the kingdom is notabout making some other dumb
bastard die, but about being thedumb bastard who dies myself, I
just in that way, yeah, I wouldsay that, nonviolence does

(16:32):
minimize the self sacrifice ofof, those who advocate violence
because it's saying that theirsacrifice isn't enough. Jesus
Christ calls me to lay down mysense of control and my sense of
what I can do to enemies and whoI can make, sacrifice their

(16:56):
lives for me. And it calls me tosomething far greater than that.
So while the, while thesacrifice of the soldier is
elevated, in some ways it's alsominimized in comparison to the
sacrifice that nonviolentindividuals should be making.

(17:17):
And that sort of brings us to topoint number 3.
I've I've given you a way thatnonviolence elevates the
sacrifice of of soldiers. I'vegiven you a way that nonviolence
does minimize the sacrifice. Forpoint number 3, I would just say
that that nonviolence, you know,in essence, doesn't really
devalue, and it it doesn'treally elevate. But what it does

(17:41):
is it appropriately values thesacrifice. And what it does is
it it recognizes thoseattributes in soldiers and
police officers and otherindividuals willing to lay down
their lives in violent manner.
It recognizes the honorable andpraiseworthy things about that,

(18:02):
but it makes enemies worthyimage bearers. And so
nonviolence is going to end up,not not inflating the the
sacrifice of soldiers, but itwill recognize the good aspects
of them. So let me give you asummary example of of kind of

(18:27):
how I see it. And I I reallycan't think of a better example,
and it's unfortunate because Iunderstand that the example I
give, as soon as I use some ofthe words I'm gonna use, people
are going to be turned off tothis and and feel like I'm
making associations that I'm I'mnot making or saying things

(18:48):
demeaning things that I'm notsaying. And I I don't at all
want you to take me, in thatmanner, and I hope you can hear
me out.
That this is just, an analogy,and and hopefully I explain it
well. So we all recognize thatwe live in a very difficult
world where people face toughdecisions all the time. And in

(19:12):
this difficult world, there aresome families who face an an
extremely tough decision. Do Ilet my family do I let my kids
go hungry, or do I do somethingextreme to feed them? And you
see this, 1 of the common waysthat this plays out, especially

(19:36):
if there is a a woman, or ateenager in the family, a
teenage girl, is that there'sthis option for prostitution.
You see it in a lot of greatmovies, like, Les Mis is is a
great example, where you see amother prostituting yourself to

(19:58):
provide. And when you see that,you know, a lot of times you use
the word prostitute, and a lotof people think, oh, dirty, just
terrible, nasty person. And,certainly, in Les Mis, you know,
with diseases and poorlifestyle, just all those things
that, that happen. Yeah. Thereis there is this dirty aspect to

(20:23):
what prostitution often can leadto.
But when you watch that movie orsee that play or read the book
and and get these images in yourhead, at at least for me, it's
hard for me to feel anythingbeyond pity. While I think
prostitution is, is immoral andand it's not ever a good option,

(20:52):
It is an understandable option,and it is something that just
breaks my heart because Iunderstand that you can get to a
point where you feel like youhave no other choice and where
you make that choice out oflove. And I I don't view that

(21:14):
sort of prostitution as justthis ugly, horrible, you're
wicked sort of thing, eventhough I think it is objectively
a sin. I think it's just sad andpitiable and horrible, and
something that that I want tohelp rescue people out of. You

(21:39):
know, as as a Christian, I canrecognize the immorality of
prostitution, yet I canempathize with the decision.
And a naturalist would have alot harder time, rationalizing
empathy because, you know, sexis just sex. And if that's how
somebody wants to take care oftheir family and feels like they

(22:02):
they need to to make money,then, you know, as long as
they're good with it, so sowhat? But I, as a Christian, can
recognize the extent of theweight that is borne by the
prostitute. It's not just asacrifice of of her body. It's a
sacrifice of something more.

(22:22):
I think taking up a anoccupation, like soldiering or
policing is is like thisexample. I'd even though I
believe in nonviolence, I don'tvividly condemn the soldier or
the police officer even thoughI've come to the conclusion that

(22:45):
I think that is an immoralposition, for somebody to hold.
My overwhelming emotion is notjudgmentalism, but it's it's
sorrow and it's it's empathy.Because even more so than than
the prostitution example, Iunderstand how living in this

(23:08):
evil world pushes people toresort to doing violence for
self preservation, of of thepreservation of the things that
they love, of the preservationof of innocent people and the
pursuit of justice. I understandthat.
Like I said, I like those movieslike The Punisher. And to be

(23:30):
quite honest, in in the way thatI've grown up, and my sense of
justice and personalresponsibility, my love for, for
guns and and, and and violence.Like, if I had a gun and
somebody came in to do harm tomy family, I really think that I

(23:55):
would draw the gun and shootthem, and I don't think I'd feel
bad about it. I think I'd haveto make myself feel bad about
it, because I am just so I'm soindoctrinated, in in this world
with with all of all of thebooks I've read, the videos I've

(24:15):
watched, the the movies that,that endorse violence, the
conversations I've had, thevideo games I've played, just
all of these things, I don'tthink I'd hesitate to do
violence if I had a weaponavailable to me and my family
was threatened. And like I said,I would have to go through the

(24:41):
logic of that person that Ikilled, it being an image bearer
of God and going through throughI would have to come to feel bad
about doing such a thing.
And and that is not a goodthing. That is a sad thing. But
I say that because I want you tounderstand that that when I'm

(25:03):
talking about the the decisionthat I think soldiers and police
officers have to make, I am notat all saying that, that I
condemn those people, and I'mjust so angered by their by
their compromise. I'm saying Ifully understand that position,

(25:29):
and I'm sad about it because welive in a world, even even a
world where we believe thatChrist reigns as king now. We
live in a world where we feelthe need to do that, to provide
for ourselves and for ourfamily.
We can't rest in in our ourfaith in Jesus Christ and his

(25:52):
preservation of our soul and hishis command to lay down our
lives and to do no violence. Wecan't rest in that. And that is
sad. That's like the prostitutewho, who is just living in such
a a messed up world that shefeels like she has to do that to
provide for her family. Andthat's how I feel about about

(26:14):
violence.
I get it, but but it's sad.Again, I I really hope you hear
me out in that example. And if,if anybody I know or any of my
friends ever listened to this, Ihope you understand what I'm

(26:34):
saying, and, that I I don't sayit at all from a position, of me
being better, but it's somethingthat, that I've been led to and,
take seriously. And I know thatthat's a process, and we serve a

(26:56):
gracious and loving God who isable to draw us all closer and
closer to him throughout ourlives. And that's gonna look
different for for each of us.
As I as I, leave here in thenext few minutes, I do wanna
leave you with, with 2 resourcesthat I think are just in

(27:21):
interesting. The first one,directly related to to what we
talked about here today, is It'sfrom Stanley Hauerwas. And in
this article, he talks aboutbeing a soldier. He talks about
our American view of of what itmeans to sacrifice. And, he he

(27:45):
discusses a little bit the,moral responsibility of killing.
It's just a really good articleto kind of help break down some
of our our ideas of this idea ofthe sacrifice of war. The other
the other 1, which would is notnearly as as heady and is a lot

(28:05):
more entertaining, in a kindasad way, but there's a there's a
documentary called The KillTeam. And I think that's it's a
it's a very great example ofthis cost of of war on soldiers
that goes beyond getting killed.In The Kill Team, the the movie

(28:31):
is not about, the documentary isnot about people getting killed,
or or soldiers American soldierssacrificing their lives. It's
about the sacrifice that theymake in becoming killers
themselves.
And it's, it's a really goodlook into how individuals are

(28:59):
shaped to be killers, justnormal individuals. And the cost
that that has on on their lives,on their their emotions, their
mental state, and all of that.And, of course, that, that also
leads into the, the book onkilling, which I've referenced a

(29:22):
number of times, which is alwaysa a great book to kind of see
the cost that that individualsface, for the rest of their
lives after they've they'vekilled killed somebody. So in
summary, what does a nonviolentposition think about the
sacrifice of soldiers? You know,we, I think, are are thankful

(29:46):
that, I live in The UnitedStates, and I am thankful that I
live here.
And I'm thankful that, that wehave the freedoms that we do,
but that doesn't mean that I'mhappy with the means that we've
used to obtain that at times. Irespect people who who have,

(30:13):
fought in wars, for those whofought in wars with, honorable,
honorable intents and actions.And and I I can respect that,
and I can understand the braveryand see the the positives of the

(30:34):
the attributes that they'veexhibited. But at the same time,
I think there's there's a hugecompromise with this willingness
to sacrifice other people foryour ideal and for your your
comfort and for your freedoms.And I think the nonviolent
position goes farther in askingyou to withhold from sacrificing

(30:57):
your enemies.
While I understand how peoplecan feel the need to sacrifice
enemies, I don't think that'swhat Christ calls us to. And so
in the end, while I can respectthe positive attributes of
soldiers and police officers, Ican't get on board with the the

(31:17):
moral ethic because I thinkChrist calls us to something
something higher than that. And,if I'm wrong, I'm sorry. I hope
I didn't offend anybody. And ifI'm right about that, I hope
that, the Holy Spirit will workin your heart.
And if you are a soldier or inthe police force or, a vigilante

(31:41):
like the Punisher and going outand killing people, bad people,
or if you're like Dexter,whatever, I hope that the Holy
Spirit will be working on yourheart and that he will draw you
closer to him and allow you tobe more and more the man or
woman that he wants you to be,an example of the kingdom to

(32:04):
those around you. That's all fornow. So peace. There's no
passages. Never I say it.

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