April 23, 2024 • 22 mins
All hiring processes suck, yes, it's true.
BUT, you can create systems that make them suck less.
When it comes to finding talent and hiring great talent, there are no silver bullets.
But if you stay true to your vision, mission, and values you can make a tough process produce better results.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
so people in business like to think that they lead
with logic and facts and data.
You know, you got to run a pnl,yep, you're looking at your
metrics.
So things are factual andinformational.
But I think one of the mostfrustrating things about being
in business is the fact that somany things are actually really
emotional, and I think hiringand firing we want it to be on
(00:34):
the data, we want to havesystems and processes in place,
but at the end of the day, ouremotions drive so much of the
hiring and firing process, it'sso hard man Like hiring and
firing not as hard, I guess.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I mean, maybe getting to that decision is tough, yeah
, but I think it was Gary V.
Someone asked him like what'sthe best hiring advice you could
give?
And he said fire fast.
Yeah, because he's just likeyou, just don't know.
And he told a story aboutsomeone that he pursued and they
interviewed him for months andmonths and months and he fired
him the first week, just got himthere it wasn't a good fit and
(01:11):
then just had to make a decisionto cut him.
So why do you think that is?
Why is hiring and firing sofreaking?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
hard.
I think it's just tough toseparate our experiences from
the data.
So I think if you're a middlemanager, you want to prove
yourself.
You're like I want headcount, Iwant people on my team, I want
to show my bosses that I canlead a big team, and so it's
like my value is tied up in howmany people I can hire yeah.
And if you're an older manager,maybe you've got some scar
tissue because you've made somebad hires and you've seen people
(01:40):
get burned, you know, or you'vebeen burned, so you're
reluctant.
So it's emotional, Like I haveto hire somebody again.
I don't want to do this, youknow.
And if you're a small businessowner, you want people that are
all in.
You're like do you buy into myvision?
Will you go with me on thisjourney?
And so it's not just I need tofind a really great employee for
this role.
It's like I want to find theright special person that's
(02:01):
going to take me to the nextlevel.
So it's just so hard toseparate emotion from what's
really at stake.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
So when you're hiring , what are some of the things
and maybe this is going toopractical, too quick, because
you just said a lot right there.
That's really good.
We could unpack a lot of thatstuff and I'm thinking through
hires that I've made, that I'mjust like, oh my gosh, tell us a
story of a hire you've made.
Well, you know, the best hire Iever made was the worst process
.
Okay, and so I hired someoneone time from Florida, brought
(02:34):
him up to Tennessee.
It was during the pandemic.
The whole process was justwhack.
Yeah, I mean, just I botchedthe whole thing and turned out
to be a great hire, whereas I'vedone hiring process before, I
mean gone through the motion, goto hr get approval, get the
yeah salary firstyeah, and have tanked like just
(02:55):
completely.
You know people that have comefrom amazing places and got in.
I mean, I've got I won'tmention names, but I've got
someone in mind.
I'm like man, we got them fromanother organization that we
really love and really respectand they got and just wasn't a
good fit for us.
And so I think there's maybesome tips and best practices,
(03:15):
but I would have to start out bysaying, when it comes to hiring
, you just don't know If someonetells you like this is the
formula for it, here's the magicbullet.
Yeah, I wouldn't trust that man,but I do think there's things
you can do like.
One is if you can do some sortof trip I know that sounds crazy
, but you learn a lot aboutwhether or not you want to be
(03:35):
around that person.
If you can do a one or two day,hey, we're going to go to a
conference.
Why don't you come with us aspart of the hiring process?
Now, you can't always do that,yeah, but most of the time, if I
can spend a couple days with aperson like, I can decide
whether or not I want to likeshow up to work yeah, with this
person or not.
But what about?
Speaker 1 (03:53):
you do, you have any?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
experiences you're thinking of I mean.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
So I was just gonna say context matters so much.
So, uh, my brother-in-lawworked for a mega mega
corporation where he had his ownbusiness inside this mega
corporation and I actually senthim a text.
I was like, hey, we're talkingabout hiring and firing today.
What was, what were some ofyour best practices?
He goes, oh, hire fast, firefaster.
And he was joking, but it'slike it was a, it was a turn and
(04:17):
burn industry, like they wouldhave to get levels of employees
really high for certain seasonsand then when that season was
done and they got a forecast forthe next quarter, they'd have
to fire a bunch of people realfast.
And you know, it was just likethe mirror test Can you fog a
mirror?
Do you have a driver's license?
You're hired.
You know, like they just had tostaff up for those things and
(04:37):
there's some training anddeveloping and I'm kind of
painting with a broad brush.
But then there's otherorganizations where the culture
demands that it's just veryrelational and it demands that
we work closely.
We're highly collaborative, wework inter, you know,
departmentally, and so thatconference story you talked
about, like can we bring them inand just see how they react
with our team.
That's going to be a goodpractice for some organizations.
(04:59):
In some places it's just aboutlike you know.
I tell a story.
I've got a family member herand her husband are a little bit
younger than me and they sayyou know, we kind of leave jobs
every two or three years becausewe get paid more at the next
company that hires us.
So it's like, okay, there's aloyalty factor of like how long
do I really think thisemployment is going to last?
(05:19):
So I'll add to say, to supportyour point earlier, if anybody
like hosts a podcast or sells abook, it's like here's how you
always hire, here's how youalways fire, like run, there's
just, it's so complicated.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I love that the context Cause, as you were
talking about that, I wasreplaying things in my mind.
You're exactly right.
Like, if you're hiring atechnician, a lot of it is can
you do this job?
Well, right, a high chemistry,high woo, high culture.
You know that you might need tospend a little more time.
You know doing, you know bringthem to the house and hang out.
Whatever you got to do to feellike, hey, do I and I think some
(05:50):
of it is just understanding isthis is this person like?
What is their value system?
Yeah, you know, are they hired?
Is is it like, hey, I'm just,I'm a nine to five, or work
monday through friday so I canbe a weekend warrior, and you
know.
Or it like I got to dosomething I believe in as high
purpose.
So, like, if you're a companythat's a high purpose, high
whatever.
You can't hire that person whojust wants a bunch of clock,
(06:10):
right, it's not going to work.
And vice versa, right, right.
And so what are?
I'm curious, do you have bestpractices, like when you're
hiring for what are some bestpractices that might be
transferable across all thesedifferent?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
areas.
I didn't know if we were goingto get to this today, but you
know, one of the products thatwe offer through fraction X is
the strategic work on itcalendar and that typically
kicks off with a strategicoffsite for a couple of days,
and we just did that for our owncompany last week.
And I think great hiring startswith core values, mission,
(06:47):
vision values and if you hirefor those things, you've got a
much higher percentage chance offinding the right fit.
I think the most certain youever get on the front end of a
hire is 80%, and if you get to80%, you move forward.
It's really tough to close thegap.
So I heard a leader say one timethat great values are great
(07:08):
values because they're valuableand you hire for them and you
fire from them.
So I think this wholeconversation needs to be wrapped
in clarity of the leader thatsays this is my company, this is
where we're going, here's howwe're going to get there.
And the values these are therules of engagement, this is how
we're going to treat each other, this is how we're going to
treat customers, and they don'tneed to be like pithy.
(07:31):
We have integrity and we haveexcellence.
It's like yeah, so doeseverybody.
It needs to be in your context,out of the heart of the leader
that started the organization,and if the founder's gone and
there's new leadership, it needsto be in the heart of the
founder, contextualized fortoday.
But once you have those thingsdecided, then you build
questions that see if there'salignment between that person's
values, what's innate and realin them, and does that match up
(07:52):
with the values of the company?
Yeah, that's really good, andnot yes or no questions Like hey
, tell me a story of one timewhen you're trying to again get
that value lined up from theirheart to your company's heart.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, patrick Lencioni has a great resource
out there for people that arelike I don't know where to start
.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, patrick Lencioni has a great resource
out there for people that arelike I don't know where to start
.
He's got a great resource ofquestionnaires around things
like culture and competency andall those different things and
you can find.
If you're a leader who doesn'thave their own system, borrow
one.
So let's talk about a couple ofthe frameworks that we've used
in the past.
So I think Lencioni has twothat I think are pretty valuable
.
One's a little more generalizedand generic and one's a little
(08:35):
more specific.
So I think the one that's alittle more generalized is the
chemistry, culture, competency,right, just that ideal team
player kind of talks through.
Competency, right, just that um, ideal team player kind of
talks through.
There's a way to discern anddecipher if this person has got
the ideal team playercharacteristics.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
That was a great one.
He also has working genius,yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
And that's the one that's more detailed, you know,
with a deeper assessment, goahead, yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I, I, I love that one too.
Um it's.
I don't know if it's simpler,but all of Lencioni's stuff
around team building and culturestuff is gold.
I think I'd highly recommendthat.
You know, we also useStrengthsFinder quite a bit.
We use Enneagram.
I like using those two thingsbecause what's?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
the predictive index, one we've used in the past,
because that one's prettydetailed as well, that one's
great.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
The crazy thing about predictive index is like it'll
ask you two sets of questions,yeah, is like it'll ask you two
sets of questions, yeah, andit's almost like it messes with
your mind, because the firsttime I took I was like, wait,
that was it, I and it.
It really nailed me.
I mean it was it got and Idon't I still don't know the
science behind it, yeah, butit's like circle these like
here's how you behave at work,here's how you behave at home,
(09:42):
and based on these things,they're able to really smart.
Like science behind thesethings, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And I think for me, like, order of operations is
really important.
So how and when you hire reallystarts with what determines the
vacancy.
Like, did somebody leave yourteam?
Are you back filling a role, um, or are you hiring for growth?
Hey, this is going to be a bigyear.
We really got to get some moneyon the team to help carry these
responsibilities.
So I think what determines thehire really starts the process
(10:09):
off on a lot of levels.
But, um, a friend of mine worksfor a fortune 500, there might
be a fortune 100 company and hegot a chance to spend a day with
the CEO, which is a really bigdeal.
This guy's like a super high,um, high skilled leader and he
talked about the things as CEOhe was really in charge of and
(10:32):
it's the normal stuff that youthought about.
But he said, oh, uh, talent,research and acquisition Like
I'm always thinking about talentand I was like, yes, if you're
in the hiring business, thatprocess for talent can't start
when you post it on.
Indeed, and I'm not talkingabout networking for networking
sake, but good leaders arealways in the lookout of, like
man that is a talented person.
I love what they bring to thetable.
So you're, you're, you know,you're looking at LinkedIn, um,
you're paying attention to thesemastermind groups.
You're paying attentioneverywhere you go to.
(10:53):
It's like I want to besurrounded by talented people
all the time, so that, when ahiring process starts, I'm not
starting at zero and it can berandom, it can be.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It can be your server at your restaurant.
But there's something specialabout them.
It's like, hey, they're goingthe extra mile.
There's a spark about them.
I see something in you which itkind of leads me to my next
question for you In leadership,when it comes to hiring and
talent, how much do you trustyour gut?
Like what's like because youtalked earlier about emotions
there's been times where, as aleader, I've had to be like, hey
(11:22):
, I feel something towards thisperson.
I don't know what it is butthere's something which and
sometimes that's right andsometimes it's wrong, but where
does that come into play in thishiring process?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
That's a great question and here.
So here's where I've got thisright and here's where I've
screwed this up.
So when I'm hiring like forsomeone else, like I've been
asked to be on a hiring team orI've asked to lead a search
process, it's pretty easy for meto separate myself, my
preferences and you know how Ifeel about a situation and be
like here's the criteria on thejob description, here are the
candidates.
You know criteria for applyingfor the role and we use all the
(11:54):
tools we talked about, like youknow, working genius, et cetera.
I can do that pretty logically.
But the reason it's emotional isI remember I was hiring for an
assistant one time.
We got a ton of greatapplications, super strong
candidates, and there was aperson I thought, oh, this
person would be great.
We talked about this in anepisode before where you were
drawn to an energy.
There was a person I thought,oh, this person would be fun to
work with.
I feel like I'm really engagedby their interview.
(12:16):
And then I was hopefully smartenough to listen to the people
on the hiring team.
They're like you're an idiot,this person is like a million
percent better for you, and Ikind of missed it.
And they were right.
It was a great assistant,really good working relationship
.
But I needed someone toseparate what I felt in that
moment from what the criteriawas.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
So hiring team, I mean, that's the other thing too
.
We could go into that, but makesure you've got a team around
you of people that will speaktruth into your process and help
you see what you're not seeing.
You know, for me, similarly, Iwould get excited and also I
just having a vacant role.
It sucks, man, cause you'rejust, you're down, a person's,
(12:56):
the rest of the team's having topick up the load, and you know
I'm trying to go quick throughthis and sometimes my impatience
or my anxiety would take thedriver's seat when I would try
to talk myself into liking aperson instead of being like man
.
They're not the right fit and Iknow it, but I don't have
anybody else that's great aroundme.
It's like you know what I'msaying and I'm I'm forcing the
(13:18):
issue.
As someone said I forget who itwas, but said if it's not a
hell yeah, it's a no.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And that's something I've had to really like, if is
it a hell.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, derrick sievers , was that who it was?
He was the founder of cd babyback in the day.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
No, way, cd baby.
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, I had some albums onthere.
You go check them out.
But um on it, if it's not ahell, yeah, it's a no and that's
a.
That's a great piece of adviceand sometimes, like you said, 80
.
Sometimes you have to get tothat place, but but it's like,
yeah, I'm all in on this person.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Well, we've said this before on the podcast that I
think bad leadership is the mostexpensive thing on the planet
and I would say the vastmajority of that statement has a
lot to do with self-awarenessand growing and development as a
leader.
But I think a place that badleadership being expensive shows
up in hiring big time, badleadership being expensive shows
(14:08):
up in hiring big time.
Yeah, what I mean by that isthe sense of urgency to not
crush the team that you alreadyhave with additional
responsibilities to get someoneon the bus fast so that you can
get some momentum and get backto positive results.
It will make you make decisionsthat you're not ready to make.
You know your urgency tells youthat we need to get this going
quick and people will tell youit is so much more expensive to
hire the wrong person quick thanto be patient to get the right
(14:31):
person.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Sure man, that's so good.
Well, and as you're talking, Ijust reflecting, and I think
this is part of the role of aleader.
Some of it was my anxiety, butalso I think it's as a leader I
always knew what my next stepwas going to be.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Like I was always a step or two ahead of like knew
what my next step was going tobe like I was always a step or
two ahead of like.
If this, then you're talkingabout your org chart or on a
hiring process in particular.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Well, I'm talking about org chart.
I'm talking about like, hey,this is, and you know we've.
We joke about this all the time.
I was mr restructure because Ilove to move around the deck
chairs, but I was also very.
Some of those moves were reallystrategic, really strategic.
Some were just me getting bored, um, and I had people around me
that was calling me out saying,hey, I think you're bored.
And even people on my team said, hey, we like this plan, let's
(15:12):
stick with it for two years.
But I, I will say even in that,um, sorry, they're slamming the
door, it just got me in my heada radio edit.
I'm just like do we have to slam?
The door or can we just lightly?
Strategic design of your orgchart.
I'm just like do we have toslam the door, or can we just
lightly?
Speaker 1 (15:28):
What were we just talking about Strategic design
of your org chart.
You're always one step ahead.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, it was just important for me as a leader to
kind of know where I wanted togo with the team, where I wanted
to go with future hires.
If budget freed up, what wouldbe the next couple hires I'd
make If this person left?
How would I backfill them?
I was always kind of readingthe team as to what was needed,
which was helpful.
If a spot opened up where Ifelt like I could backfill it
(15:57):
quickly, or I already had fivenames in mind that I would call.
And let's face it, as a leader,a lot of times there's been
very few times I've beenblindsided by someone leaving.
Either I let them go or I couldtell that they were starting to
lose passion, lose energy, andso I could start playing some of
those scenarios in my mind Okay, if this person bounces, well,
I've got five people I'm goingto call to see if they want to
(16:19):
backfill this and kind of levelup this spot.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Yeah, that's good.
Well, I was going to say somereally great CFOs are gifted in
projections, so they go, man,based on this year's performance
, here's what I think is goingto happen next year.
I think when it comes tobuilding teams and hiring it's
what you said Like you'veprobably got a gift for
projections, man in a couple ofyears.
(16:44):
I think the team could looklike this let's be prepared for
that.
Hey, I'm sensing this personleaning away from the
organization they're.
They're not as engaged as theyused to be.
Their performance is lower, soI may have to backfill this
sooner than later.
I'd love to, you know, developthem towards better performance,
but if that doesn't happen, Ineed to know I'm not going to
leave that chair empty for sixmonths while I rehire it.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, and this could be a whole nother episode.
But you, you have to build theteam around you.
That's, that's your team, right?
So I?
I inherited a great team onetime, like a elite team, but
they weren't my team.
They didn't compliment mystrengths, they didn't
compliment.
So I led for probably longerthan what I what I should have
with a team that wasn'tcomplimentary to my leadership
(17:16):
style, wasn't complimentary tomy strengths.
I was just leading with thiselite team from the former
leader, and so I think you haveto really understand we talk
about self-awareness tonsbecause you have to really
understand okay, who do I needaround me?
And just because a team existedand was successful under a
former leader, it may not be theright people that you need for
the next one.
So in the hiring process, youhave to know, hey, who do I have
(17:37):
around me right now?
That's why we use all thoseother tools.
Okay, look at Working Genius orStrengthsFinder, enneagram or
whatever.
Okay, here's who I have on theteam when I backfill this
position.
It'd be really great for me tohave this kind of person,
because we're lacking.
We're heavy on execution andlow on creativity, or vice versa
, whatever it is.
But I think, understanding thathaving a good idea as a leader
(17:58):
of who's around you and what youneed is going to help you be
more successful in your hiringprocess.
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
So if someone's listening to this and they're in
an organization where they'vegot some hiring coming up, what
are some resources you couldpoint them to, besides this
conversation, that you wouldtake yourself if you were trying
to build a team right now?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
if you were trying to build a team right now, I will
say this the number one by farbest resource or most effective
tool I've used in hiring greatpeople has been references from
former employers or formerplaces that wasn't on the resume
.
Oh wow, resumes to me and againthis could be a hot take.
(18:40):
Resumes to me don't mean much.
It means you're a great resumewriter.
So if I'm hiring for a resumewriter, you might get the job,
but if it's something else otherthan writing resumes, it
doesn't mean much to me.
Now I will scan it and look atyour education, your experience,
all that kind of stuff.
But the best hires that I'vemade have been people who have
called me and said hey, if youever have an opportunity, you
(19:01):
definitely should hire thisperson.
And here's why that those haveworked out almost every time,
and I could name names right nowof people who called me and
said hey, if you have a chanceto hire this person, you should
hire him.
And here's why that I don'teven know a close second to that
for me, because otherwise youknow and you definitely ask them
what have you done before?
Like, show me some differentthings.
(19:22):
But you know the this is anaudition, people are putting
their best foot forward.
They're trying to win the job.
Sometimes they're trying to winthe job even if they don't
really want the job.
They're just desperate to havea job, so they're trying to win
it.
But for me it's if I can getone person on the phone and
hopefully they don't even knowthat I'm talking to this person
and they're giving me anunbiased reference, cause I've
got the.
I've got the other way beforetoo, where someone was trying to
(19:44):
get rid of someone and gave mea great reference that I got him
and I was like dude, now I seewhy you know.
But man, that is, that is gold.
I would say search for that.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
What about you?
Yeah, I was going to say afriend called me this week who's
looking about to changeindustries and he's like I
really got to get my resumeupdated.
I haven't updated in like 10years.
I've been in the same businessfor a long time.
My advice that he was gettingfrom other people he said was
like I got to get the resumelike this, this, and I was like
I was like look man, like ofcourse you need a good resume,
but just like you said, that'slike not one of the most
(20:14):
important things I'm looking for.
Like that opens, opens a door,but what are your transferable
skills moving from an industryto an industry?
What are your references?
Like, what are people going tosay about you and your
leadership and how well you work, how hard you work, what kind
of efficacy, how effective areyou in the business you're
working in?
And so I agree, like the resumeis, people put a lot of stock
and obviously it gets you know,a seat at the table on some
(20:34):
levels for an interview, butthere's just not enough
information there to really makea great decision.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
No, that.
And the second one, if therewas a close second, I'm going to
their social media.
That's the first thing I'mdoing.
Yeah, I want to see how theyshow up in the world when
they're not at work.
I want to see what they value.
I want to see what they'reposting.
How do they present themselvesto?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
the public?
Are they a liability for yourcompany because of the things
they post?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Absolutely.
You learn a lot about a personif you can find low key, find
their Facebook, instagram,tiktok, whatever and you're like
, oh wow, you present this way.
But these are the things you'retalking about, the things you
care about, the things you'reyou know, and so you know you
definitely want to be carefuland you know, follow all the
rules and you know guidelineswhen it comes to hiring.
(21:15):
I think I'm pretty sure you'renot.
You don't ask for those thingsin interviews, but I always look
, I search for them, yeah, evenif I don't ask, because that
tells me a lot.
You know, outside of thereference, once I get the
reference and I see what they'reposting on social media a lot
of times, that will really guidewhether or not I want to have
now I'm not making the wholedecision based on that, but it
definitely has them.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, it's in there for sure.
Well, I was going to say, as wewrap up here, I think we
haven't even talked firing yet.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
That might have to be next episode.
Next episode how to fire fast.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
often there you go Fast and often Sorry.
What were you saying?
We've got a lot of hopes anddreams for Fraction X.
Obviously, we want to helpleaders get better.
We want to help bring strategiccalendars to work on it for
organizations.
But down the road, what Ireally want to do with this
organization is I want to beexecutive search function.
I want to be a place for whatyou talked about great
(22:06):
references and resources forleaders as they're building out
their teams to find tremendousleaders, great executives that
come alongside leaders and helpbuild their team, grow towards
that vision, grow towards thatmission and make sure they
really accomplish what they wantto accomplish.
so people in business like to think that they lead
with logic and facts and data.
You know, you got to run a pnl,yep, you're looking at your
metrics.
So things are factual andinformational.
But I think one of the mostfrustrating things about being
in business is the fact that somany things are actually really
emotional, and I think hiringand firing we want it to be on
(00:34):
the data, we want to havesystems and processes in place,
but at the end of the day, ouremotions drive so much of the
hiring and firing process, it'sso hard man Like hiring and
firing not as hard, I guess.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I mean, maybe getting to that decision is tough, yeah
, but I think it was Gary V.
Someone asked him like what'sthe best hiring advice you could
give?
And he said fire fast.
Yeah, because he's just likeyou, just don't know.
And he told a story aboutsomeone that he pursued and they
interviewed him for months andmonths and months and he fired
him the first week, just got himthere it wasn't a good fit and
(01:11):
then just had to make a decisionto cut him.
So why do you think that is?
Why is hiring and firing sofreaking?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
hard.
I think it's just tough toseparate our experiences from
the data.
So I think if you're a middlemanager, you want to prove
yourself.
You're like I want headcount, Iwant people on my team, I want
to show my bosses that I canlead a big team, and so it's
like my value is tied up in howmany people I can hire yeah.
And if you're an older manager,maybe you've got some scar
tissue because you've made somebad hires and you've seen people
(01:40):
get burned, you know, or you'vebeen burned, so you're
reluctant.
So it's emotional, Like I haveto hire somebody again.
I don't want to do this, youknow.
And if you're a small businessowner, you want people that are
all in.
You're like do you buy into myvision?
Will you go with me on thisjourney?
And so it's not just I need tofind a really great employee for
this role.
It's like I want to find theright special person that's
(02:01):
going to take me to the nextlevel.
So it's just so hard toseparate emotion from what's
really at stake.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
So when you're hiring , what are some of the things
and maybe this is going toopractical, too quick, because
you just said a lot right there.
That's really good.
We could unpack a lot of thatstuff and I'm thinking through
hires that I've made, that I'mjust like, oh my gosh, tell us a
story of a hire you've made.
Well, you know, the best hire Iever made was the worst process
.
Okay, and so I hired someoneone time from Florida, brought
(02:34):
him up to Tennessee.
It was during the pandemic.
The whole process was justwhack.
Yeah, I mean, just I botchedthe whole thing and turned out
to be a great hire, whereas I'vedone hiring process before, I
mean gone through the motion, goto hr get approval, get the
yeah salary firstyeah, and have tanked like just
(02:55):
completely.
You know people that have comefrom amazing places and got in.
I mean, I've got I won'tmention names, but I've got
someone in mind.
I'm like man, we got them fromanother organization that we
really love and really respectand they got and just wasn't a
good fit for us.
And so I think there's maybesome tips and best practices,
(03:15):
but I would have to start out bysaying, when it comes to hiring
, you just don't know If someonetells you like this is the
formula for it, here's the magicbullet.
Yeah, I wouldn't trust that man,but I do think there's things
you can do like.
One is if you can do some sortof trip I know that sounds crazy
, but you learn a lot aboutwhether or not you want to be
(03:35):
around that person.
If you can do a one or two day,hey, we're going to go to a
conference.
Why don't you come with us aspart of the hiring process?
Now, you can't always do that,yeah, but most of the time, if I
can spend a couple days with aperson like, I can decide
whether or not I want to likeshow up to work yeah, with this
person or not.
But what about?
Speaker 1 (03:53):
you do, you have any?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
experiences you're thinking of I mean.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
So I was just gonna say context matters so much.
So, uh, my brother-in-lawworked for a mega mega
corporation where he had his ownbusiness inside this mega
corporation and I actually senthim a text.
I was like, hey, we're talkingabout hiring and firing today.
What was, what were some ofyour best practices?
He goes, oh, hire fast, firefaster.
And he was joking, but it'slike it was a, it was a turn and
(04:17):
burn industry, like they wouldhave to get levels of employees
really high for certain seasonsand then when that season was
done and they got a forecast forthe next quarter, they'd have
to fire a bunch of people realfast.
And you know, it was just likethe mirror test Can you fog a
mirror?
Do you have a driver's license?
You're hired.
You know, like they just had tostaff up for those things and
(04:37):
there's some training anddeveloping and I'm kind of
painting with a broad brush.
But then there's otherorganizations where the culture
demands that it's just veryrelational and it demands that
we work closely.
We're highly collaborative, wework inter, you know,
departmentally, and so thatconference story you talked
about, like can we bring them inand just see how they react
with our team.
That's going to be a goodpractice for some organizations.
(04:59):
In some places it's just aboutlike you know.
I tell a story.
I've got a family member herand her husband are a little bit
younger than me and they sayyou know, we kind of leave jobs
every two or three years becausewe get paid more at the next
company that hires us.
So it's like, okay, there's aloyalty factor of like how long
do I really think thisemployment is going to last?
(05:19):
So I'll add to say, to supportyour point earlier, if anybody
like hosts a podcast or sells abook, it's like here's how you
always hire, here's how youalways fire, like run, there's
just, it's so complicated.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I love that the context Cause, as you were
talking about that, I wasreplaying things in my mind.
You're exactly right.
Like, if you're hiring atechnician, a lot of it is can
you do this job?
Well, right, a high chemistry,high woo, high culture.
You know that you might need tospend a little more time.
You know doing, you know bringthem to the house and hang out.
Whatever you got to do to feellike, hey, do I and I think some
(05:50):
of it is just understanding isthis is this person like?
What is their value system?
Yeah, you know, are they hired?
Is is it like, hey, I'm just,I'm a nine to five, or work
monday through friday so I canbe a weekend warrior, and you
know.
Or it like I got to dosomething I believe in as high
purpose.
So, like, if you're a companythat's a high purpose, high
whatever.
You can't hire that person whojust wants a bunch of clock,
(06:10):
right, it's not going to work.
And vice versa, right, right.
And so what are?
I'm curious, do you have bestpractices, like when you're
hiring for what are some bestpractices that might be
transferable across all thesedifferent?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
areas.
I didn't know if we were goingto get to this today, but you
know, one of the products thatwe offer through fraction X is
the strategic work on itcalendar and that typically
kicks off with a strategicoffsite for a couple of days,
and we just did that for our owncompany last week.
And I think great hiring startswith core values, mission,
(06:47):
vision values and if you hirefor those things, you've got a
much higher percentage chance offinding the right fit.
I think the most certain youever get on the front end of a
hire is 80%, and if you get to80%, you move forward.
It's really tough to close thegap.
So I heard a leader say one timethat great values are great
(07:08):
values because they're valuableand you hire for them and you
fire from them.
So I think this wholeconversation needs to be wrapped
in clarity of the leader thatsays this is my company, this is
where we're going, here's howwe're going to get there.
And the values these are therules of engagement, this is how
we're going to treat each other, this is how we're going to
treat customers, and they don'tneed to be like pithy.
(07:31):
We have integrity and we haveexcellence.
It's like yeah, so doeseverybody.
It needs to be in your context,out of the heart of the leader
that started the organization,and if the founder's gone and
there's new leadership, it needsto be in the heart of the
founder, contextualized fortoday.
But once you have those thingsdecided, then you build
questions that see if there'salignment between that person's
values, what's innate and realin them, and does that match up
(07:52):
with the values of the company?
Yeah, that's really good, andnot yes or no questions Like hey
, tell me a story of one timewhen you're trying to again get
that value lined up from theirheart to your company's heart.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, patrick Lencioni has a great resource
out there for people that arelike I don't know where to start
.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, patrick Lencioni has a great resource
out there for people that arelike I don't know where to start
.
He's got a great resource ofquestionnaires around things
like culture and competency andall those different things and
you can find.
If you're a leader who doesn'thave their own system, borrow
one.
So let's talk about a couple ofthe frameworks that we've used
in the past.
So I think Lencioni has twothat I think are pretty valuable
.
One's a little more generalizedand generic and one's a little
(08:35):
more specific.
So I think the one that's alittle more generalized is the
chemistry, culture, competency,right, just that ideal team
player kind of talks through.
Competency, right, just that um, ideal team player kind of
talks through.
There's a way to discern anddecipher if this person has got
the ideal team playercharacteristics.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
That was a great one.
He also has working genius,yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
And that's the one that's more detailed, you know,
with a deeper assessment, goahead, yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I, I, I love that one too.
Um it's.
I don't know if it's simpler,but all of Lencioni's stuff
around team building and culturestuff is gold.
I think I'd highly recommendthat.
You know, we also useStrengthsFinder quite a bit.
We use Enneagram.
I like using those two thingsbecause what's?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
the predictive index, one we've used in the past,
because that one's prettydetailed as well, that one's
great.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
The crazy thing about predictive index is like it'll
ask you two sets of questions,yeah, is like it'll ask you two
sets of questions, yeah, andit's almost like it messes with
your mind, because the firsttime I took I was like, wait,
that was it, I and it.
It really nailed me.
I mean it was it got and Idon't I still don't know the
science behind it, yeah, butit's like circle these like
here's how you behave at work,here's how you behave at home,
(09:42):
and based on these things,they're able to really smart.
Like science behind thesethings, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And I think for me, like, order of operations is
really important.
So how and when you hire reallystarts with what determines the
vacancy.
Like, did somebody leave yourteam?
Are you back filling a role, um, or are you hiring for growth?
Hey, this is going to be a bigyear.
We really got to get some moneyon the team to help carry these
responsibilities.
So I think what determines thehire really starts the process
(10:09):
off on a lot of levels.
But, um, a friend of mine worksfor a fortune 500, there might
be a fortune 100 company and hegot a chance to spend a day with
the CEO, which is a really bigdeal.
This guy's like a super high,um, high skilled leader and he
talked about the things as CEOhe was really in charge of and
(10:32):
it's the normal stuff that youthought about.
But he said, oh, uh, talent,research and acquisition Like
I'm always thinking about talentand I was like, yes, if you're
in the hiring business, thatprocess for talent can't start
when you post it on.
Indeed, and I'm not talkingabout networking for networking
sake, but good leaders arealways in the lookout of, like
man that is a talented person.
I love what they bring to thetable.
So you're, you're, you know,you're looking at LinkedIn, um,
you're paying attention to thesemastermind groups.
You're paying attentioneverywhere you go to.
(10:53):
It's like I want to besurrounded by talented people
all the time, so that, when ahiring process starts, I'm not
starting at zero and it can berandom, it can be.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It can be your server at your restaurant.
But there's something specialabout them.
It's like, hey, they're goingthe extra mile.
There's a spark about them.
I see something in you which itkind of leads me to my next
question for you In leadership,when it comes to hiring and
talent, how much do you trustyour gut?
Like what's like because youtalked earlier about emotions
there's been times where, as aleader, I've had to be like, hey
(11:22):
, I feel something towards thisperson.
I don't know what it is butthere's something which and
sometimes that's right andsometimes it's wrong, but where
does that come into play in thishiring process?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
That's a great question and here.
So here's where I've got thisright and here's where I've
screwed this up.
So when I'm hiring like forsomeone else, like I've been
asked to be on a hiring team orI've asked to lead a search
process, it's pretty easy for meto separate myself, my
preferences and you know how Ifeel about a situation and be
like here's the criteria on thejob description, here are the
candidates.
You know criteria for applyingfor the role and we use all the
(11:54):
tools we talked about, like youknow, working genius, et cetera.
I can do that pretty logically.
But the reason it's emotional isI remember I was hiring for an
assistant one time.
We got a ton of greatapplications, super strong
candidates, and there was aperson I thought, oh, this
person would be great.
We talked about this in anepisode before where you were
drawn to an energy.
There was a person I thought,oh, this person would be fun to
work with.
I feel like I'm really engagedby their interview.
(12:16):
And then I was hopefully smartenough to listen to the people
on the hiring team.
They're like you're an idiot,this person is like a million
percent better for you, and Ikind of missed it.
And they were right.
It was a great assistant,really good working relationship
.
But I needed someone toseparate what I felt in that
moment from what the criteriawas.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
So hiring team, I mean, that's the other thing too
.
We could go into that, but makesure you've got a team around
you of people that will speaktruth into your process and help
you see what you're not seeing.
You know, for me, similarly, Iwould get excited and also I
just having a vacant role.
It sucks, man, cause you'rejust, you're down, a person's,
(12:56):
the rest of the team's having topick up the load, and you know
I'm trying to go quick throughthis and sometimes my impatience
or my anxiety would take thedriver's seat when I would try
to talk myself into liking aperson instead of being like man
.
They're not the right fit and Iknow it, but I don't have
anybody else that's great aroundme.
It's like you know what I'msaying and I'm I'm forcing the
(13:18):
issue.
As someone said I forget who itwas, but said if it's not a
hell yeah, it's a no.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And that's something I've had to really like, if is
it a hell.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, derrick sievers , was that who it was?
He was the founder of cd babyback in the day.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
No, way, cd baby.
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, I had some albums onthere.
You go check them out.
But um on it, if it's not ahell, yeah, it's a no and that's
a.
That's a great piece of adviceand sometimes, like you said, 80
.
Sometimes you have to get tothat place, but but it's like,
yeah, I'm all in on this person.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Well, we've said this before on the podcast that I
think bad leadership is the mostexpensive thing on the planet
and I would say the vastmajority of that statement has a
lot to do with self-awarenessand growing and development as a
leader.
But I think a place that badleadership being expensive shows
up in hiring big time, badleadership being expensive shows
(14:08):
up in hiring big time.
Yeah, what I mean by that isthe sense of urgency to not
crush the team that you alreadyhave with additional
responsibilities to get someoneon the bus fast so that you can
get some momentum and get backto positive results.
It will make you make decisionsthat you're not ready to make.
You know your urgency tells youthat we need to get this going
quick and people will tell youit is so much more expensive to
hire the wrong person quick thanto be patient to get the right
(14:31):
person.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Sure man, that's so good.
Well, and as you're talking, Ijust reflecting, and I think
this is part of the role of aleader.
Some of it was my anxiety, butalso I think it's as a leader I
always knew what my next stepwas going to be.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Like I was always a step or two ahead of like knew
what my next step was going tobe like I was always a step or
two ahead of like.
If this, then you're talkingabout your org chart or on a
hiring process in particular.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Well, I'm talking about org chart.
I'm talking about like, hey,this is, and you know we've.
We joke about this all the time.
I was mr restructure because Ilove to move around the deck
chairs, but I was also very.
Some of those moves were reallystrategic, really strategic.
Some were just me getting bored, um, and I had people around me
that was calling me out saying,hey, I think you're bored.
And even people on my team said, hey, we like this plan, let's
(15:12):
stick with it for two years.
But I, I will say even in that,um, sorry, they're slamming the
door, it just got me in my heada radio edit.
I'm just like do we have to slam?
The door or can we just lightly?
Strategic design of your orgchart.
I'm just like do we have toslam the door, or can we just
lightly?
Speaker 1 (15:28):
What were we just talking about Strategic design
of your org chart.
You're always one step ahead.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, it was just important for me as a leader to
kind of know where I wanted togo with the team, where I wanted
to go with future hires.
If budget freed up, what wouldbe the next couple hires I'd
make If this person left?
How would I backfill them?
I was always kind of readingthe team as to what was needed,
which was helpful.
If a spot opened up where Ifelt like I could backfill it
(15:57):
quickly, or I already had fivenames in mind that I would call.
And let's face it, as a leader,a lot of times there's been
very few times I've beenblindsided by someone leaving.
Either I let them go or I couldtell that they were starting to
lose passion, lose energy, andso I could start playing some of
those scenarios in my mind Okay, if this person bounces, well,
I've got five people I'm goingto call to see if they want to
(16:19):
backfill this and kind of levelup this spot.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Yeah, that's good.
Well, I was going to say somereally great CFOs are gifted in
projections, so they go, man,based on this year's performance
, here's what I think is goingto happen next year.
I think when it comes tobuilding teams and hiring it's
what you said Like you'veprobably got a gift for
projections, man in a couple ofyears.
(16:44):
I think the team could looklike this let's be prepared for
that.
Hey, I'm sensing this personleaning away from the
organization they're.
They're not as engaged as theyused to be.
Their performance is lower, soI may have to backfill this
sooner than later.
I'd love to, you know, developthem towards better performance,
but if that doesn't happen, Ineed to know I'm not going to
leave that chair empty for sixmonths while I rehire it.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, and this could be a whole nother episode.
But you, you have to build theteam around you.
That's, that's your team, right?
So I?
I inherited a great team onetime, like a elite team, but
they weren't my team.
They didn't compliment mystrengths, they didn't
compliment.
So I led for probably longerthan what I what I should have
with a team that wasn'tcomplimentary to my leadership
(17:16):
style, wasn't complimentary tomy strengths.
I was just leading with thiselite team from the former
leader, and so I think you haveto really understand we talk
about self-awareness tonsbecause you have to really
understand okay, who do I needaround me?
And just because a team existedand was successful under a
former leader, it may not be theright people that you need for
the next one.
So in the hiring process, youhave to know, hey, who do I have
(17:37):
around me right now?
That's why we use all thoseother tools.
Okay, look at Working Genius orStrengthsFinder, enneagram or
whatever.
Okay, here's who I have on theteam when I backfill this
position.
It'd be really great for me tohave this kind of person,
because we're lacking.
We're heavy on execution andlow on creativity, or vice versa
, whatever it is.
But I think, understanding thathaving a good idea as a leader
(17:58):
of who's around you and what youneed is going to help you be
more successful in your hiringprocess.
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
So if someone's listening to this and they're in
an organization where they'vegot some hiring coming up, what
are some resources you couldpoint them to, besides this
conversation, that you wouldtake yourself if you were trying
to build a team right now?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
if you were trying to build a team right now, I will
say this the number one by farbest resource or most effective
tool I've used in hiring greatpeople has been references from
former employers or formerplaces that wasn't on the resume
.
Oh wow, resumes to me and againthis could be a hot take.
(18:40):
Resumes to me don't mean much.
It means you're a great resumewriter.
So if I'm hiring for a resumewriter, you might get the job,
but if it's something else otherthan writing resumes, it
doesn't mean much to me.
Now I will scan it and look atyour education, your experience,
all that kind of stuff.
But the best hires that I'vemade have been people who have
called me and said hey, if youever have an opportunity, you
(19:01):
definitely should hire thisperson.
And here's why that those haveworked out almost every time,
and I could name names right nowof people who called me and
said hey, if you have a chanceto hire this person, you should
hire him.
And here's why that I don'teven know a close second to that
for me, because otherwise youknow and you definitely ask them
what have you done before?
Like, show me some differentthings.
(19:22):
But you know the this is anaudition, people are putting
their best foot forward.
They're trying to win the job.
Sometimes they're trying to winthe job even if they don't
really want the job.
They're just desperate to havea job, so they're trying to win
it.
But for me it's if I can getone person on the phone and
hopefully they don't even knowthat I'm talking to this person
and they're giving me anunbiased reference, cause I've
got the.
I've got the other way beforetoo, where someone was trying to
(19:44):
get rid of someone and gave mea great reference that I got him
and I was like dude, now I seewhy you know.
But man, that is, that is gold.
I would say search for that.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
What about you?
Yeah, I was going to say afriend called me this week who's
looking about to changeindustries and he's like I
really got to get my resumeupdated.
I haven't updated in like 10years.
I've been in the same businessfor a long time.
My advice that he was gettingfrom other people he said was
like I got to get the resumelike this, this, and I was like
I was like look man, like ofcourse you need a good resume,
but just like you said, that'slike not one of the most
(20:14):
important things I'm looking for.
Like that opens, opens a door,but what are your transferable
skills moving from an industryto an industry?
What are your references?
Like, what are people going tosay about you and your
leadership and how well you work, how hard you work, what kind
of efficacy, how effective areyou in the business you're
working in?
And so I agree, like the resumeis, people put a lot of stock
and obviously it gets you know,a seat at the table on some
(20:34):
levels for an interview, butthere's just not enough
information there to really makea great decision.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
No, that.
And the second one, if therewas a close second, I'm going to
their social media.
That's the first thing I'mdoing.
Yeah, I want to see how theyshow up in the world when
they're not at work.
I want to see what they value.
I want to see what they'reposting.
How do they present themselvesto?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
the public?
Are they a liability for yourcompany because of the things
they post?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Absolutely.
You learn a lot about a personif you can find low key, find
their Facebook, instagram,tiktok, whatever and you're like
, oh wow, you present this way.
But these are the things you'retalking about, the things you
care about, the things you'reyou know, and so you know you
definitely want to be carefuland you know, follow all the
rules and you know guidelineswhen it comes to hiring.
(21:15):
I think I'm pretty sure you'renot.
You don't ask for those thingsin interviews, but I always look
, I search for them, yeah, evenif I don't ask, because that
tells me a lot.
You know, outside of thereference, once I get the
reference and I see what they'reposting on social media a lot
of times, that will really guidewhether or not I want to have
now I'm not making the wholedecision based on that, but it
definitely has them.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, it's in there for sure.
Well, I was going to say, as wewrap up here, I think we
haven't even talked firing yet.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
That might have to be next episode.
Next episode how to fire fast.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
often there you go Fast and often Sorry.
What were you saying?
We've got a lot of hopes anddreams for Fraction X.
Obviously, we want to helpleaders get better.
We want to help bring strategiccalendars to work on it for
organizations.
But down the road, what Ireally want to do with this
organization is I want to beexecutive search function.
I want to be a place for whatyou talked about great
(22:06):
references and resources forleaders as they're building out
their teams to find tremendousleaders, great executives that
come alongside leaders and helpbuild their team, grow towards
that vision, grow towards thatmission and make sure they
really accomplish what they wantto accomplish.
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