July 2, 2024 • 22 mins
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of great leadership and business books. But if you're new to business and leadership, you may not know where to start. On this episode Matt and Drew take a high level look at several of their favorite resources that every leader needs at their disposal.
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Speaker 2 (00:14):
so, matt, you got a.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
You got a pile of books in front of your pal yeah,
I grabbed him at a nickel anddime store on the way over here
little light reading.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yeah, I want to introduce you to a little thing
called the kindle.
Yeah, you can carry them all inone little device.
What so?
These are some of the booksthat you and I have used through
the years, and we talked to alot of owner operators.
Yeah, and explain kind of theidea behind this podcast episode
(00:41):
, because we're trying to, we'retrying to create an episode
that might be helpful to theseguys that are working with their
business every day.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Well, I think there's probably two groups of people
that I'd love to give some valueto from this conversation today
.
One is you know, we talk toowners and operators.
We coach owners and operatorswho they may not have gone to
business school and they don'thave an MBA.
They're good at the trade.
They have architects,construction people, landscaping
(01:06):
, cleaners I mean, you name it,whatever trade it is and they're
good at it.
They started a business, sothey've got a great brain for a
product or a service and then,all of a sudden, they find
themselves in the seat of oh man, I'm actually running a
business now.
I've got a staff, I've got apayroll, I've got expenses, I've
got a profit and loss statement.
Oh man, what do I do with allthis?
So there's that camp.
And then there's other peoplewho are.
Maybe they find themselves withpoint leaders and maybe they
didn't start the company, butthey're leading at a high level
(01:27):
in a company and they're likeman, I'm just constantly
overwhelmed.
There's stress and pressure andI just don't know if I've got
all the tools that I need tolead at the level that I'm at.
And that's great.
That feeling is pretty normal.
That kind of imposter syndromeand I'm not saying reading books
is the answer, but I am sayingbeing exposed to some ideas that
are kind of further down theroad than you are can shape and
(01:48):
change leadership in a reallygood way.
So I brought just a couple ofthe books that have shaped me
over the last, you know,probably 15 or 20 years of
leadership.
And you know some of these booksare frameworks in and of
themselves and I think that'swhat a lot of people lack as a
framework to run their business,and some of them are more
self-discovery tools.
Like we talk a lot aboutself-awareness on this podcast.
Some people are like, hey, howdo I grow in self-awareness?
(02:09):
Well, one of the ways arethrough some of these books.
So I think today's kind of likeis there a shortcut for
business leaders, owners,operators and point leaders to
maybe find a tool that they needright now.
Like we've talked a lot aboutlike we're in the middle of this
you know business year and ifyou run, you know your year,
kind of you know January 1st toDecember 31st and you may not be
hitting all the goals you wantto hit.
We've talked about mastermindsto kind of help through that.
(02:31):
Maybe just a new idea couldhelp somebody.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
So, yeah, that's what this pile of books about.
Well, or whatever, but it isthis leadership industry.
It's so overwhelming, there'sso many great resources out
there it's hard to know where tostart.
(02:53):
And you're exactly right.
These owner operators and wetalk about this all the time
where probably people get sickof it, but they're working in
their business so much that youknow we've talked to them where
they're just like I don't havetime to have time to work on it,
but I'm just in it trying tomake it and I and I get it.
Don miller will talk throughone of his books here in a
minute, but I just recentlyheard him say that about 50 you
(03:15):
need to be working on marketingand all that kind of stuff and
50 working in and I most owneroperators are nowhere close to
that percentage.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
if you get five 5%, you feel like you're winning
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, or at all right If you're working on it at all,
which is why we do the offsites and the masterminds and
all these things, to just giveyou an intentional space to work
on it.
So we'll just start at the topStrengthsFinder.
I love the StrengthsFinder tool.
Tell me a little bit aboutStrengthsFinder, how you've used
that one in the past.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, and I'd love you to jump in as well.
So for me, strengthsfinders wasone of those early tools in my
leadership that I realized oh,everyone's not wired like me.
You know, when you're a youngleader or a young person, you
just your worldview and yourperspective on how things work.
Maybe I'm just an ignorantidiot.
I just thought, oh, everybodyprobably thinks this way,
everybody has probably had theexperiences I have.
And you go no, not everybody'swired the same.
(04:04):
And so what this book does is itkind of says hey, if you take
this test I don't know, itprobably takes less than 20
minutes to do we're going tohighlight the top five strengths
that you have, and I think it'sout of about 32.
You have to forgive me, I don'thave these memorized.
I've got them kind of likecodified it in my brain, and so
it'll say hey, look, here's fivegifts you really have, um, that
we think are pretty significant, you know, and I'll read a
(04:25):
couple of them so you can kindof get the idea.
But it's like you may have the,the, the gift of achiever
activator.
You might be adaptable, youmight be analytical, you might
be an arranger, you might havehigh belief, you might be have
command, communication,competition, connectedness, so
on and so forth.
Right, and there's, I think Isaid like 31 or 32 of these
strategic woo, significantself-assurance, and so, um, this
(04:46):
tool was great for me todiscover I've got gifts that not
everybody else around the tablehas.
They're not a moral judgment,they're not a good or a bad
thing, and if you don't have agift, it doesn't disqualify you
from leadership, and I thinkwhat it really does in team
leadership it goes oh there'ssome things that I don't have in
me, that I need around thetable, yeah, and so, do you even
remember what your strengthsare I think mine came up, just
(05:07):
said NA.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
No, I, I woo and communication is always up in
there.
The thing about StrengthsFinderis it can change a little bit
based on the season ofleadership you're in right, not
not tons, like it won't changetons, and I would recommend
going ahead and paying for thefull version that shows you all
of them, not just your top five,because I think seeing my
(05:30):
bottom five was actually reallyhelpful in team leadership to
know who do I need around me.
I remember we were on a teamtogether and we did this
exercise as a team and chartedit, and there's actually
consultants that will come inand lead you through this
exercise.
I found it to be very helpfulbecause it was great to look
across the table and be like, oh, you have this strength so I
should bring you in on thesetype moments, you know.
(05:52):
And so, yeah, I think, wooCommunication I forget some of
the other ones I had in there,but it's-.
Generalized awesomeness orsomething like that.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, general badass was on one there.
What yours?
You gotta be on there somewhere, right?
I think it's top 10, you know,like you said, they change from
season to season.
A little bit strategic maybe,yeah, so strategic command
self-assurance um activator orlike uh, maybe maximize or
something like that, yeah, Ilike to get every penny out of
every dollar I spend, you knowyeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Well, can we?
Can we transition that one?
So this, these are strengths,but I'm looking at the bottom of
your pile.
There and you've got this tosome people is a really dirty
word.
Enneagram oh gosh, the wisdomof the Enneagram.
This is a tool that you and Ihave used since we're kind of on
the self-aware andself-discovery team culture
leadership category.
(06:40):
Talk about the Enneagram.
How have you used that?
How's it been helpful?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
an eyeopening tool, like I love StrengthsFinder and
I love being able to see some ofthose things.
Nothing really got to the coreof who I am, the way the
Enneagram was able to describe,and it's a personality type book
.
Apparently it's been around fora really long time and its
origins are a little bit murkyand some people think it's
mystical.
I don't think it is.
I just think it's a tool likeany other tool that is sitting
(07:09):
in front of me, and so for me,what it really did is it
identified core motivations,some things that really I might
be afraid of that motivate mepositively and negatively, and
it also allowed me just tounderstand a little bit more
about how I was wired and itgave me a tool to also
(07:29):
understand my wife better andmaybe understand my teammates
better, and it's beensignificantly tremendously
helpful.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, there's another book.
The Wisdom of the Enneagram isgreat.
It's a little more of a deeperdive.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
This is like academic more than applicable yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Ian Crone wrote a book called the Road Back to you
, which is a great first stepinto that.
But even Ian said that hey, thisis just a tool and if it even
just makes you 10% better, treatit as that.
So I percent better treat asthat.
So I think a lot of the timeswith enneagram the problem that
people have is when they use itas a too much of a descriptor,
like.
There's a therapist friend ofme that won't even let me say
(08:01):
any more than I'm an enneagramseven.
Okay, he says you show up as anenneagram seven.
It's just a little bit of a youknow distinguishes between you,
know who I am and all thisstuff.
But you nailed it.
The motivations, um, is what iskind of to me the
differentiator between that andthe strengths finder.
Sure, I like those two as acompliment to one another.
(08:22):
In the working genius as wellit's a compliment.
But those two together arereally powerful tool.
Yeah, especially, I would say,for me, because I would always
toggle back and forth between amI a seven or my three.
You know, because I've got alot of achiever in me and I
would always toggle back andforth between am I a seven or my
three.
You know, because I've got alot of achiever in me and I've
got.
But the growth and stress forme is what really nailed me as
showing up as a seven, becauseI'm like man, that is so true.
(08:45):
When I'm stressed I go to thatunhealthy one and micromanage
and all that stuff.
When I'm healthy, I'm alonesomewhere, you know in nature,
reading a book.
Showing up as a healthier fiveyeah, um.
And then, like you said, leadinga team, like there was a period
of time where you were myleader and I think you,
understanding my wiring as aseven, helped you be a great
leader for me, because you wouldlead to, to my motivations, my
(09:09):
personality, my spontaneity,yeah, um, and so it really helps
you.
And the last thing I'll say,cause I am an Enneagram fan,
it's just been just cause it'sbeen helpful.
If you're leading a team, it'sgoing to help you with a lot of
interpersonal conflict, becauseI remember I had a three on my
team and a one on my team thatjust never could get along until
they had to understand that theone cares about how we get
(09:30):
there and the three just caresabout how it looks when we get
there.
That the one cares about how weget there and the three just
cares about how it looks when weget there, that's good, and so
until the two great leaders theyjust have, they just come at it
from different angles, right so?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
well, I do use some technology when I read and I'm
an audible person, so I didn'twant to just show my audible
list to the viewers.
But you, you mentioned workinggenius, and so what's great
about that?
Is it kind of is so strength.
Strength finders is fantastic,enneagram is fantastic.
They don't necessarily give youlike a working tool or
framework you can use in yourorganization the way the working
(10:00):
genius can.
So once these self-discoverytools turn into frameworks,
that's when they can get reallyhelpful.
And so I've got this fivedysfunctions a team and we'll
talk about that in a second.
But more I wanted to highlightyou know, pat Lencioni is just a
fantastic, you know, visionaryleadership writer, talks really
(10:21):
practical stuff and, um, thatworking genius tool is really
helpful.
I think any organization thatlike has processes, like maybe
project management, where theyspecialize, or bringing
something you know frominception to delivering a
product for a client, that tooland that framework is super
helpful as well.
We we've used that before inprevious organizations.
Anything on working geniusbefore we move on.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
No, I it's, it's similar, it just gives some new
language.
Um, it's that one's a newer onefor me that I've used
personally, but I don't knowthat I've used it in a in a team
.
I guess we we were on a teamwhere we used it together
because you brought it me to it.
But anything that lancione doesis worth looking into.
Um, but yeah, I think as acreative, the working genius
(10:57):
gave me more like creativelanguage.
I like the way they describethings a little bit more, um,
but yeah, another another greattool, but five dysfunctional
team.
Now is this is this the book?
That is half story, like hetells narrative, yeah, and it's
practical.
So it's got a little bit ofsomething for everyone.
If you're more of a narrative,he kind of gives a situation.
(11:18):
He tells this long story of howthese different, uh,
dysfunctions of teams show upand then he gets real practical.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, I've probably read this in at least three
different seasons of leadershipand three different seats in an
organization.
And it's funny, you know, whenyou face different stresses and
pressures and responsibilities,what pops out, and obviously the
culture of the team you're onreally matters as well.
And so the first time I read Iwas like okay, that's fine,
whatever.
The second time I read I waslike that's pretty good.
Then we read it one time and Iwas like, oh man, this is
actually pretty painful.
(11:45):
Now that I have moreresponsibility and ownership and
organization, I'm actuallyaccountable for the dysfunctions
that happen in teams, and sothis one's a really fantastic
book.
Like you said, the narrative is.
You know, all leadership andbusiness narratives are going to
be a bit cheesy, but it helpsfrom just like reading concepts.
It's a little less academic whenit's a it's a really good way
to name some things in theorganization to try to move you
(12:06):
towards a healthier you know,functioning team.
Just to kind of keep goingthrough the list here.
Yeah, we talked aboutself-discovery tools that are
helpful for you as a leader andfor your team.
Then I do think at some pointyou need a framework and
honestly there are dozens offrameworks to run your business
by, but I am passionate that youpick one.
You know some people do umattraction.
(12:27):
Um Gino has a couple ofdifferent books.
I think there's another one inhere as well.
Um it has a couple differentbooks.
I think there's another one inhere as well.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
It's called Rocket Fuel and it's kind of like a
continuation of this tractionbook.
See the EOS guy.
Yeah, eos, big rocks 100%.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
But so like, why am I drawing a blank on the thing
from Colorado that we did?
Oh, the StratOp thing.
There we go.
You can use StratOp as aframework, right, and that's a
system to operate your businessidentify challenges, identify
opportunities and then put yourorganization to task to do those
Traction's another greatframework book that gives you a
(13:02):
way to operate the business.
This is not really a narrative,this is more like kind of
academic.
And another one I just readearly this year is just real
simple, from Don Miller.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
It's just how to grow your small business framework
King.
He's Mr Framework story, brand,all these things he thinks in
terms of frameworks, which isincredibly helpful.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, so maybe for someone who's listening is like
what the crap is a framework?
I don't know.
What do you?
How would you describe aframework to operate a business?
I?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
mean framework roadmap.
To me it's just like it's moreof a systematic guide to how to
do something right.
So for guys like me who cankind of just have these thought
bubbles all the time, goingideas all the time, I need to
work a plan.
So it basically gives me astructure.
And I will say for thoselistening that are similar to me
(13:48):
you said it a minute ago I wantto highlight you will really
overwhelm your team if you throwa lot of everything Because I
made that mistake.
I get excited about a new thing, I read and I bring it to the
team immediately and they'relike well, we're not even done.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Are we doing?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
EOS still or no?
Are we still doing this?
Done we're still?
Are we doing eos still or no?
Are we still doing this, youknow?
So I do think, find one thatresonates with you and try to
run that play for, I would say,at least a couple years if you
can, and then if you need topivot, great, but just be
careful, throwing too much toofast as a leader.
Um, but yeah, don miller isjust he.
I think he is probably the mostbrilliant I've seen at taking
(14:22):
concepts that have existed for along time and packaging it in a
way that is really accessible,and that's what he did with
story brand, and then this, thiskind of newer one.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, Just so to put some I don't know handles on
what you just said aboutframeworks.
He just says so.
This book talks about theframework being your business is
an airplane and so the parts ofthe airplane that correspond
with kind of functions ordepartments in your, in your
business.
So the cockpit would be yourleadership, right, like it's got
to have someone who's flyingthe plane, who's responsible to
steer it and guide it andeverything else.
Then he talks about you know,the engines on the left and
(14:55):
right side of the plane being,you know, sales being on one
side and marketing being theother side, right, and you know
it's like cashflow and marketing.
It talks about the products areyour wings, the products are
the thing that gives you liftand actually carries you as
you're flying.
And then it talks about thebody of the airplane is your
overhead and operations.
It's like it's a thing that isbeing taken from point A to
(15:15):
point B.
And so when you just kind ofthink about, okay, yeah, I've
got a cockpit, I've got wings,I've got an engine, I've got a
body, yeah, and then you put allyour operations into those
buckets and it's kind of helpful.
And then you mentioned a caveatas far as like pivoting from
system to system, and of courseyou can get super distracted.
And I'm, as a coach, I'm notreally passionate about which
framework you use or whichself-discovery tool you use.
(15:37):
I just think you have to dothem at some point to to grow as
a leader.
And, you know, based on yourbusiness, um, and based on your
personality, I may recommend oneor the other in a coaching
session, like, hey, I think thisone's gonna be pretty crucial
for this year of leadership anddevelopment.
But I'm not gonna, you know,really say I only do
StrengthsFinder, I only doEnneagram.
I think they all have value.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Well, it's what I love about when, when you lead
these off sites and you reallydo take the best of all these
things like so we've done astrat op off sites for three or
four days.
It's great, we've doneenneagram stuff, we've done
strength finder, we've donestory brand, we've done, we've
had, we've done all this stufffor the consultants come and do
(16:18):
that.
When we do a fraction x offsite, we really kind of pick the
best of those things and try tocombine it into one experience
and if we want to dig deeperinto one, we can.
But we take what we've learnedand done with the culture stuff,
like any grand working genius,strengths finder, um, we take
the strat op stuff that we'velearned, that was helpful, a lot
of the exercises we do there,and we kind of put it into a two
(16:40):
or three day experience so thatwhen you leave, instead of
having to do six different offsites, we're trying to package
it in one and then if and thenin our follow-up work is where
we kind of dive a little bitdeeper into that stuff.
Here's my question.
And you got a few more there.
I don't know if we got time togo through, because I'm curious
about your jordan peterson bookand why you brought that one to
(17:00):
the table because that's thatjust to make some people mad,
was it just the sort of thespeed of trust, obviously a
great book for for teams, um,that are wanting to go further,
faster.
You know we love anything byandy stanley.
He's written some great books.
Um, he's a you know pastor, buthe's he's.
The principles are transferablein the leadership, really smart
leader.
If you're an owner operator,where would you, you recommend
(17:24):
that I, I start?
Where would we start as owneroperators, with all this stuff?
Do you have one that you wouldsay, or or is it just I would
almost?
Speaker 1 (17:32):
start above a decision for a framework or for
a guideline and say changereally only happens when the
pain of not changing outweighsthe pain of the change you're
about to do.
Right, and so it kind of.
For me, it starts with acommitment.
Hey, things are this way rightnow and I'm so sick and tired of
the results, or I'm so sick andtired of the stress and the
pressure that my life is puttingon me and my leadership and my
(17:56):
business.
I have to do somethingdifferent.
So that that point of like, ifthings are kind of going well,
like you're probably not goingto be committed to any change,
like things are going good, I'mnot going to change my life that
much.
I may be inspired by an idea,but what I really want to talk
to are the leaders who are justlike at the end of their rope
and say, hey, you need change.
A lot of times we need changethat's guided by someone else,
(18:16):
right?
So it's like whether that's thebook that guides you, or a
coach or consultant that guidesyou, um, or counselor, or
whatever that is, I think youhave to get that point of
commitment.
And the reason I want to startwith commitment is because
implementation is difficult.
I heard this story and it blewme away.
So I went to Chick-fil-A withmy daughter last night and I
always like to test the you know, my pleasure.
(18:37):
So I was like hey man, thanksso much, and he did it my
pleasure, right.
Any guesses how long it tookthe C-suite to get my pleasure
pass at the retail stores?
I have no idea.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I would figure they just put out a memo and everyone
has to start saying it.
It took three years forcomplete implementation.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Wow, that is one of the best like leadership into
the culture for it to show upevery as consistently as it does
.
It took three years to get thatacross the goal line.
Chick-fil-a is all aboutleadership.
They have a leadership trainingcenter.
They have an incrediblecentralized organization that
all they think about is chickenand profit.
These people are the best ofthe best right, and if it took
(19:15):
them three years to get mypleasure across the goal line,
you better believe before youadopt a framework with a staff.
I mean it's going to fightagainst all your bad habits and
all your bad decisions and yourteam who's?
They're mad because you'vechanged the framework three
times in three years.
So it's like there's just ahundred things that are going to
work against you.
So it starts with being dude.
I'm just so sick and tired ofthe results I'm getting.
(19:36):
I'm going to commit tosomething.
It doesn't matter if it'sEnneagram or StrengthsFinder,
whatever, or framework.
You're just saying somethinghas to change and I'm gonna be
committed to that processbecause really execution is
success, not ideation.
Reading a bunch of booksdoesn't make you successful when
you go okay, how do I applythis and actually make?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
my business 100%.
You gotta activate it for it tobecome transformational.
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
So I go, before you pick a framework and start
somewhere, ask yourself am Iready to change?
And that's a real, honestquestion Like, not, like am I?
I'm kind of ready to change.
Like no, I'm ready to change.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
And it takes slowing down.
I mean the thing we see all thetime and we understand cause
we're.
We're in it too, so weunderstand what it's like it
takes being able to pull awayand some sometimes the biggest
hurdle for us is convincingleaders to take a day or two
step away from their businessbecause it feels like they're
going backwards.
But we're like we promise you,when you emerge with a clear
(20:28):
strategy and message and allthis stuff, it's going to really
propel your business forward.
But I understand a lot ofowners, operators I can't be
away from my business for even aday or two.
It feels that.
So, as leaders, understanding,like you said, you got to want
it, you got to have that placeof desperation and you got to be
willing to invest, whichsometimes it's more than money.
(20:50):
It's the time to steal away,slow everything down, bring it
to a halt or a stop for a minuteso you can look at it and then
you can actually go go faster.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
No, I think that's a great place to land this one.
You know, my thing is, if weget some feedback from people
listening to the podcast, thatthey want us to continue to go
through some more tools and somemore books we'll revisit some
of these, because I've got awhole shelf full of these things
.
You've got a bunch.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
All right, last question for you.
We'll end with this.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
This is a fun one.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
It's good.
It's a desert island question.
You're going to go one businessbook with you to launch your
new startup business.
What?
What is your?
What's the Holy grail you'retaking with you?
You only get to choose one.
That is such an impossiblequestion.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
I'm gonna see if it's in this pile somewhere.
You're taking Peterson, yeah, Idon't know, man, I think.
I think, um, this book probablyhad more impact than I thought
it was going to have.
Yeah, because, um, and I'lljust say this for me it comes.
They talk about this book.
The definition of trust isreally, um, it's two things.
(21:56):
It's not just character, butit's competence.
And a lot of people think it'sjust oh, you've got to be
trustworthy, you got to be havea good character.
It's like, if you'retrustworthy, character wise, but
you have no competence, you'reactually not a trustworthy
person.
Or, on the flip side, if youare very competent but your
character is shady, you're stillnot a trustworthy person.
And so this kind of talks aboutmergers and acquisitions and
(22:16):
when cultures collide, like howdo you build trust in an
organization?
But it really starts with aleader saying I'm going to be
committed to being a trustingperson myself and I'm going to
develop the character that'simpeachable and I'm going to
develop the competence that'sgoing to give people confidence
in what I'm doing.
So I think there's there's it'sa pretty dense book and I love
the coveys.
They both write some reallyfantastic stuff, so I think that
(22:38):
one may go with me.
Bye.
so, matt, you got a.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
You got a pile of books in front of your pal yeah,
I grabbed him at a nickel anddime store on the way over here
little light reading.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yeah, I want to introduce you to a little thing
called the kindle.
Yeah, you can carry them all inone little device.
What so?
These are some of the booksthat you and I have used through
the years, and we talked to alot of owner operators.
Yeah, and explain kind of theidea behind this podcast episode
(00:41):
, because we're trying to, we'retrying to create an episode
that might be helpful to theseguys that are working with their
business every day.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Well, I think there's probably two groups of people
that I'd love to give some valueto from this conversation today
.
One is you know, we talk toowners and operators.
We coach owners and operatorswho they may not have gone to
business school and they don'thave an MBA.
They're good at the trade.
They have architects,construction people, landscaping
(01:06):
, cleaners I mean, you name it,whatever trade it is and they're
good at it.
They started a business, sothey've got a great brain for a
product or a service and then,all of a sudden, they find
themselves in the seat of oh man, I'm actually running a
business now.
I've got a staff, I've got apayroll, I've got expenses, I've
got a profit and loss statement.
Oh man, what do I do with allthis?
So there's that camp.
And then there's other peoplewho are.
Maybe they find themselves withpoint leaders and maybe they
didn't start the company, butthey're leading at a high level
(01:27):
in a company and they're likeman, I'm just constantly
overwhelmed.
There's stress and pressure andI just don't know if I've got
all the tools that I need tolead at the level that I'm at.
And that's great.
That feeling is pretty normal.
That kind of imposter syndromeand I'm not saying reading books
is the answer, but I am sayingbeing exposed to some ideas that
are kind of further down theroad than you are can shape and
(01:48):
change leadership in a reallygood way.
So I brought just a couple ofthe books that have shaped me
over the last, you know,probably 15 or 20 years of
leadership.
And you know some of these booksare frameworks in and of
themselves and I think that'swhat a lot of people lack as a
framework to run their business,and some of them are more
self-discovery tools.
Like we talk a lot aboutself-awareness on this podcast.
Some people are like, hey, howdo I grow in self-awareness?
(02:09):
Well, one of the ways arethrough some of these books.
So I think today's kind of likeis there a shortcut for
business leaders, owners,operators and point leaders to
maybe find a tool that they needright now.
Like we've talked a lot aboutlike we're in the middle of this
you know business year and ifyou run, you know your year,
kind of you know January 1st toDecember 31st and you may not be
hitting all the goals you wantto hit.
We've talked about mastermindsto kind of help through that.
(02:31):
Maybe just a new idea couldhelp somebody.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
So, yeah, that's what this pile of books about.
Well, or whatever, but it isthis leadership industry.
It's so overwhelming, there'sso many great resources out
there it's hard to know where tostart.
(02:53):
And you're exactly right.
These owner operators and wetalk about this all the time
where probably people get sickof it, but they're working in
their business so much that youknow we've talked to them where
they're just like I don't havetime to have time to work on it,
but I'm just in it trying tomake it and I and I get it.
Don miller will talk throughone of his books here in a
minute, but I just recentlyheard him say that about 50 you
(03:15):
need to be working on marketingand all that kind of stuff and
50 working in and I most owneroperators are nowhere close to
that percentage.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
if you get five 5%, you feel like you're winning
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, or at all right If you're working on it at all,
which is why we do the offsites and the masterminds and
all these things, to just giveyou an intentional space to work
on it.
So we'll just start at the topStrengthsFinder.
I love the StrengthsFinder tool.
Tell me a little bit aboutStrengthsFinder, how you've used
that one in the past.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, and I'd love you to jump in as well.
So for me, strengthsfinders wasone of those early tools in my
leadership that I realized oh,everyone's not wired like me.
You know, when you're a youngleader or a young person, you
just your worldview and yourperspective on how things work.
Maybe I'm just an ignorantidiot.
I just thought, oh, everybodyprobably thinks this way,
everybody has probably had theexperiences I have.
And you go no, not everybody'swired the same.
(04:04):
And so what this book does is itkind of says hey, if you take
this test I don't know, itprobably takes less than 20
minutes to do we're going tohighlight the top five strengths
that you have, and I think it'sout of about 32.
You have to forgive me, I don'thave these memorized.
I've got them kind of likecodified it in my brain, and so
it'll say hey, look, here's fivegifts you really have, um, that
we think are pretty significant, you know, and I'll read a
(04:25):
couple of them so you can kindof get the idea.
But it's like you may have the,the, the gift of achiever
activator.
You might be adaptable, youmight be analytical, you might
be an arranger, you might havehigh belief, you might be have
command, communication,competition, connectedness, so
on and so forth.
Right, and there's, I think Isaid like 31 or 32 of these
strategic woo, significantself-assurance, and so, um, this
(04:46):
tool was great for me todiscover I've got gifts that not
everybody else around the tablehas.
They're not a moral judgment,they're not a good or a bad
thing, and if you don't have agift, it doesn't disqualify you
from leadership, and I thinkwhat it really does in team
leadership it goes oh there'ssome things that I don't have in
me, that I need around thetable, yeah, and so, do you even
remember what your strengthsare I think mine came up, just
(05:07):
said NA.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
No, I, I woo and communication is always up in
there.
The thing about StrengthsFinderis it can change a little bit
based on the season ofleadership you're in right, not
not tons, like it won't changetons, and I would recommend
going ahead and paying for thefull version that shows you all
of them, not just your top five,because I think seeing my
(05:30):
bottom five was actually reallyhelpful in team leadership to
know who do I need around me.
I remember we were on a teamtogether and we did this
exercise as a team and chartedit, and there's actually
consultants that will come inand lead you through this
exercise.
I found it to be very helpfulbecause it was great to look
across the table and be like, oh, you have this strength so I
should bring you in on thesetype moments, you know.
(05:52):
And so, yeah, I think, wooCommunication I forget some of
the other ones I had in there,but it's-.
Generalized awesomeness orsomething like that.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, general badass was on one there.
What yours?
You gotta be on there somewhere, right?
I think it's top 10, you know,like you said, they change from
season to season.
A little bit strategic maybe,yeah, so strategic command
self-assurance um activator orlike uh, maybe maximize or
something like that, yeah, Ilike to get every penny out of
every dollar I spend, you knowyeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Well, can we?
Can we transition that one?
So this, these are strengths,but I'm looking at the bottom of
your pile.
There and you've got this tosome people is a really dirty
word.
Enneagram oh gosh, the wisdomof the Enneagram.
This is a tool that you and Ihave used since we're kind of on
the self-aware andself-discovery team culture
leadership category.
(06:40):
Talk about the Enneagram.
How have you used that?
How's it been helpful?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
an eyeopening tool, like I love StrengthsFinder and
I love being able to see some ofthose things.
Nothing really got to the coreof who I am, the way the
Enneagram was able to describe,and it's a personality type book
.
Apparently it's been around fora really long time and its
origins are a little bit murkyand some people think it's
mystical.
I don't think it is.
I just think it's a tool likeany other tool that is sitting
(07:09):
in front of me, and so for me,what it really did is it
identified core motivations,some things that really I might
be afraid of that motivate mepositively and negatively, and
it also allowed me just tounderstand a little bit more
about how I was wired and itgave me a tool to also
(07:29):
understand my wife better andmaybe understand my teammates
better, and it's beensignificantly tremendously
helpful.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, there's another book.
The Wisdom of the Enneagram isgreat.
It's a little more of a deeperdive.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
This is like academic more than applicable yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Ian Crone wrote a book called the Road Back to you
, which is a great first stepinto that.
But even Ian said that hey, thisis just a tool and if it even
just makes you 10% better, treatit as that.
So I percent better treat asthat.
So I think a lot of the timeswith enneagram the problem that
people have is when they use itas a too much of a descriptor,
like.
There's a therapist friend ofme that won't even let me say
(08:01):
any more than I'm an enneagramseven.
Okay, he says you show up as anenneagram seven.
It's just a little bit of a youknow distinguishes between you,
know who I am and all thisstuff.
But you nailed it.
The motivations, um, is what iskind of to me the
differentiator between that andthe strengths finder.
Sure, I like those two as acompliment to one another.
(08:22):
In the working genius as wellit's a compliment.
But those two together arereally powerful tool.
Yeah, especially, I would say,for me, because I would always
toggle back and forth between amI a seven or my three.
You know, because I've got alot of achiever in me and I
would always toggle back andforth between am I a seven or my
three.
You know, because I've got alot of achiever in me and I've
got.
But the growth and stress forme is what really nailed me as
showing up as a seven, becauseI'm like man, that is so true.
(08:45):
When I'm stressed I go to thatunhealthy one and micromanage
and all that stuff.
When I'm healthy, I'm alonesomewhere, you know in nature,
reading a book.
Showing up as a healthier fiveyeah, um.
And then, like you said, leadinga team, like there was a period
of time where you were myleader and I think you,
understanding my wiring as aseven, helped you be a great
leader for me, because you wouldlead to, to my motivations, my
(09:09):
personality, my spontaneity,yeah, um, and so it really helps
you.
And the last thing I'll say,cause I am an Enneagram fan,
it's just been just cause it'sbeen helpful.
If you're leading a team, it'sgoing to help you with a lot of
interpersonal conflict, becauseI remember I had a three on my
team and a one on my team thatjust never could get along until
they had to understand that theone cares about how we get
(09:30):
there and the three just caresabout how it looks when we get
there.
That the one cares about how weget there and the three just
cares about how it looks when weget there, that's good, and so
until the two great leaders theyjust have, they just come at it
from different angles, right so?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
well, I do use some technology when I read and I'm
an audible person, so I didn'twant to just show my audible
list to the viewers.
But you, you mentioned workinggenius, and so what's great
about that?
Is it kind of is so strength.
Strength finders is fantastic,enneagram is fantastic.
They don't necessarily give youlike a working tool or
framework you can use in yourorganization the way the working
(10:00):
genius can.
So once these self-discoverytools turn into frameworks,
that's when they can get reallyhelpful.
And so I've got this fivedysfunctions a team and we'll
talk about that in a second.
But more I wanted to highlightyou know, pat Lencioni is just a
fantastic, you know, visionaryleadership writer, talks really
(10:21):
practical stuff and, um, thatworking genius tool is really
helpful.
I think any organization thatlike has processes, like maybe
project management, where theyspecialize, or bringing
something you know frominception to delivering a
product for a client, that tooland that framework is super
helpful as well.
We we've used that before inprevious organizations.
Anything on working geniusbefore we move on.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
No, I it's, it's similar, it just gives some new
language.
Um, it's that one's a newer onefor me that I've used
personally, but I don't knowthat I've used it in a in a team
.
I guess we we were on a teamwhere we used it together
because you brought it me to it.
But anything that lancione doesis worth looking into.
Um, but yeah, I think as acreative, the working genius
(10:57):
gave me more like creativelanguage.
I like the way they describethings a little bit more, um,
but yeah, another another greattool, but five dysfunctional
team.
Now is this is this the book?
That is half story, like hetells narrative, yeah, and it's
practical.
So it's got a little bit ofsomething for everyone.
If you're more of a narrative,he kind of gives a situation.
(11:18):
He tells this long story of howthese different, uh,
dysfunctions of teams show upand then he gets real practical.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, I've probably read this in at least three
different seasons of leadershipand three different seats in an
organization.
And it's funny, you know, whenyou face different stresses and
pressures and responsibilities,what pops out, and obviously the
culture of the team you're onreally matters as well.
And so the first time I read Iwas like okay, that's fine,
whatever.
The second time I read I waslike that's pretty good.
Then we read it one time and Iwas like, oh man, this is
actually pretty painful.
(11:45):
Now that I have moreresponsibility and ownership and
organization, I'm actuallyaccountable for the dysfunctions
that happen in teams, and sothis one's a really fantastic
book.
Like you said, the narrative is.
You know, all leadership andbusiness narratives are going to
be a bit cheesy, but it helpsfrom just like reading concepts.
It's a little less academic whenit's a it's a really good way
to name some things in theorganization to try to move you
(12:06):
towards a healthier you know,functioning team.
Just to kind of keep goingthrough the list here.
Yeah, we talked aboutself-discovery tools that are
helpful for you as a leader andfor your team.
Then I do think at some pointyou need a framework and
honestly there are dozens offrameworks to run your business
by, but I am passionate that youpick one.
You know some people do umattraction.
(12:27):
Um Gino has a couple ofdifferent books.
I think there's another one inhere as well.
Um it has a couple differentbooks.
I think there's another one inhere as well.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
It's called Rocket Fuel and it's kind of like a
continuation of this tractionbook.
See the EOS guy.
Yeah, eos, big rocks 100%.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
But so like, why am I drawing a blank on the thing
from Colorado that we did?
Oh, the StratOp thing.
There we go.
You can use StratOp as aframework, right, and that's a
system to operate your businessidentify challenges, identify
opportunities and then put yourorganization to task to do those
Traction's another greatframework book that gives you a
(13:02):
way to operate the business.
This is not really a narrative,this is more like kind of
academic.
And another one I just readearly this year is just real
simple, from Don Miller.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
It's just how to grow your small business framework
King.
He's Mr Framework story, brand,all these things he thinks in
terms of frameworks, which isincredibly helpful.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, so maybe for someone who's listening is like
what the crap is a framework?
I don't know.
What do you?
How would you describe aframework to operate a business?
I?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
mean framework roadmap.
To me it's just like it's moreof a systematic guide to how to
do something right.
So for guys like me who cankind of just have these thought
bubbles all the time, goingideas all the time, I need to
work a plan.
So it basically gives me astructure.
And I will say for thoselistening that are similar to me
(13:48):
you said it a minute ago I wantto highlight you will really
overwhelm your team if you throwa lot of everything Because I
made that mistake.
I get excited about a new thing, I read and I bring it to the
team immediately and they'relike well, we're not even done.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Are we doing?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
EOS still or no?
Are we still doing this?
Done we're still?
Are we doing eos still or no?
Are we still doing this, youknow?
So I do think, find one thatresonates with you and try to
run that play for, I would say,at least a couple years if you
can, and then if you need topivot, great, but just be
careful, throwing too much toofast as a leader.
Um, but yeah, don miller isjust he.
I think he is probably the mostbrilliant I've seen at taking
(14:22):
concepts that have existed for along time and packaging it in a
way that is really accessible,and that's what he did with
story brand, and then this, thiskind of newer one.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, Just so to put some I don't know handles on
what you just said aboutframeworks.
He just says so.
This book talks about theframework being your business is
an airplane and so the parts ofthe airplane that correspond
with kind of functions ordepartments in your, in your
business.
So the cockpit would be yourleadership, right, like it's got
to have someone who's flyingthe plane, who's responsible to
steer it and guide it andeverything else.
Then he talks about you know,the engines on the left and
(14:55):
right side of the plane being,you know, sales being on one
side and marketing being theother side, right, and you know
it's like cashflow and marketing.
It talks about the products areyour wings, the products are
the thing that gives you liftand actually carries you as
you're flying.
And then it talks about thebody of the airplane is your
overhead and operations.
It's like it's a thing that isbeing taken from point A to
(15:15):
point B.
And so when you just kind ofthink about, okay, yeah, I've
got a cockpit, I've got wings,I've got an engine, I've got a
body, yeah, and then you put allyour operations into those
buckets and it's kind of helpful.
And then you mentioned a caveatas far as like pivoting from
system to system, and of courseyou can get super distracted.
And I'm, as a coach, I'm notreally passionate about which
framework you use or whichself-discovery tool you use.
(15:37):
I just think you have to dothem at some point to to grow as
a leader.
And, you know, based on yourbusiness, um, and based on your
personality, I may recommend oneor the other in a coaching
session, like, hey, I think thisone's gonna be pretty crucial
for this year of leadership anddevelopment.
But I'm not gonna, you know,really say I only do
StrengthsFinder, I only doEnneagram.
I think they all have value.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Well, it's what I love about when, when you lead
these off sites and you reallydo take the best of all these
things like so we've done astrat op off sites for three or
four days.
It's great, we've doneenneagram stuff, we've done
strength finder, we've donestory brand, we've done, we've
had, we've done all this stufffor the consultants come and do
(16:18):
that.
When we do a fraction x offsite, we really kind of pick the
best of those things and try tocombine it into one experience
and if we want to dig deeperinto one, we can.
But we take what we've learnedand done with the culture stuff,
like any grand working genius,strengths finder, um, we take
the strat op stuff that we'velearned, that was helpful, a lot
of the exercises we do there,and we kind of put it into a two
(16:40):
or three day experience so thatwhen you leave, instead of
having to do six different offsites, we're trying to package
it in one and then if and thenin our follow-up work is where
we kind of dive a little bitdeeper into that stuff.
Here's my question.
And you got a few more there.
I don't know if we got time togo through, because I'm curious
about your jordan peterson bookand why you brought that one to
(17:00):
the table because that's thatjust to make some people mad,
was it just the sort of thespeed of trust, obviously a
great book for for teams, um,that are wanting to go further,
faster.
You know we love anything byandy stanley.
He's written some great books.
Um, he's a you know pastor, buthe's he's.
The principles are transferablein the leadership, really smart
leader.
If you're an owner operator,where would you, you recommend
(17:24):
that I, I start?
Where would we start as owneroperators, with all this stuff?
Do you have one that you wouldsay, or or is it just I would
almost?
Speaker 1 (17:32):
start above a decision for a framework or for
a guideline and say changereally only happens when the
pain of not changing outweighsthe pain of the change you're
about to do.
Right, and so it kind of.
For me, it starts with acommitment.
Hey, things are this way rightnow and I'm so sick and tired of
the results, or I'm so sick andtired of the stress and the
pressure that my life is puttingon me and my leadership and my
(17:56):
business.
I have to do somethingdifferent.
So that that point of like, ifthings are kind of going well,
like you're probably not goingto be committed to any change,
like things are going good, I'mnot going to change my life that
much.
I may be inspired by an idea,but what I really want to talk
to are the leaders who are justlike at the end of their rope
and say, hey, you need change.
A lot of times we need changethat's guided by someone else,
(18:16):
right?
So it's like whether that's thebook that guides you, or a
coach or consultant that guidesyou, um, or counselor, or
whatever that is, I think youhave to get that point of
commitment.
And the reason I want to startwith commitment is because
implementation is difficult.
I heard this story and it blewme away.
So I went to Chick-fil-A withmy daughter last night and I
always like to test the you know, my pleasure.
(18:37):
So I was like hey man, thanksso much, and he did it my
pleasure, right.
Any guesses how long it tookthe C-suite to get my pleasure
pass at the retail stores?
I have no idea.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I would figure they just put out a memo and everyone
has to start saying it.
It took three years forcomplete implementation.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Wow, that is one of the best like leadership into
the culture for it to show upevery as consistently as it does
.
It took three years to get thatacross the goal line.
Chick-fil-a is all aboutleadership.
They have a leadership trainingcenter.
They have an incrediblecentralized organization that
all they think about is chickenand profit.
These people are the best ofthe best right, and if it took
(19:15):
them three years to get mypleasure across the goal line,
you better believe before youadopt a framework with a staff.
I mean it's going to fightagainst all your bad habits and
all your bad decisions and yourteam who's?
They're mad because you'vechanged the framework three
times in three years.
So it's like there's just ahundred things that are going to
work against you.
So it starts with being dude.
I'm just so sick and tired ofthe results I'm getting.
(19:36):
I'm going to commit tosomething.
It doesn't matter if it'sEnneagram or StrengthsFinder,
whatever, or framework.
You're just saying somethinghas to change and I'm gonna be
committed to that processbecause really execution is
success, not ideation.
Reading a bunch of booksdoesn't make you successful when
you go okay, how do I applythis and actually make?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
my business 100%.
You gotta activate it for it tobecome transformational.
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
So I go, before you pick a framework and start
somewhere, ask yourself am Iready to change?
And that's a real, honestquestion Like, not, like am I?
I'm kind of ready to change.
Like no, I'm ready to change.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
And it takes slowing down.
I mean the thing we see all thetime and we understand cause
we're.
We're in it too, so weunderstand what it's like it
takes being able to pull awayand some sometimes the biggest
hurdle for us is convincingleaders to take a day or two
step away from their businessbecause it feels like they're
going backwards.
But we're like we promise you,when you emerge with a clear
(20:28):
strategy and message and allthis stuff, it's going to really
propel your business forward.
But I understand a lot ofowners, operators I can't be
away from my business for even aday or two.
It feels that.
So, as leaders, understanding,like you said, you got to want
it, you got to have that placeof desperation and you got to be
willing to invest, whichsometimes it's more than money.
(20:50):
It's the time to steal away,slow everything down, bring it
to a halt or a stop for a minuteso you can look at it and then
you can actually go go faster.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
No, I think that's a great place to land this one.
You know, my thing is, if weget some feedback from people
listening to the podcast, thatthey want us to continue to go
through some more tools and somemore books we'll revisit some
of these, because I've got awhole shelf full of these things
.
You've got a bunch.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
All right, last question for you.
We'll end with this.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
This is a fun one.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
It's good.
It's a desert island question.
You're going to go one businessbook with you to launch your
new startup business.
What?
What is your?
What's the Holy grail you'retaking with you?
You only get to choose one.
That is such an impossiblequestion.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
I'm gonna see if it's in this pile somewhere.
You're taking Peterson, yeah, Idon't know, man, I think.
I think, um, this book probablyhad more impact than I thought
it was going to have.
Yeah, because, um, and I'lljust say this for me it comes.
They talk about this book.
The definition of trust isreally, um, it's two things.
(21:56):
It's not just character, butit's competence.
And a lot of people think it'sjust oh, you've got to be
trustworthy, you got to be havea good character.
It's like, if you'retrustworthy, character wise, but
you have no competence, you'reactually not a trustworthy
person.
Or, on the flip side, if youare very competent but your
character is shady, you're stillnot a trustworthy person.
And so this kind of talks aboutmergers and acquisitions and
(22:16):
when cultures collide, like howdo you build trust in an
organization?
But it really starts with aleader saying I'm going to be
committed to being a trustingperson myself and I'm going to
develop the character that'simpeachable and I'm going to
develop the competence that'sgoing to give people confidence
in what I'm doing.
So I think there's there's it'sa pretty dense book and I love
the coveys.
They both write some reallyfantastic stuff, so I think that
(22:38):
one may go with me.
Bye.
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