February 27, 2024 • 17 mins
"Feedback" is often a platitudinal buzzword in the work place, but even if feels tired, I promise you it's incredibly crucial. On this episode Matt and Drew talk to leaders who need to grow in how they receive feedback from their teams, and we give some tips for employees who want to learn how to give their leader feedback.
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Speaker 2 (00:12):
All right.
So, matt, it's a good one thing.
One thing that we're bothpassionate about is helping
leaders get better.
Yeah, that's why this podcastexists.
So we're going to be truthfulon this podcast, right, and so I
want leaders to know that weare on the side of leaders
getting better.
But here's what's true Mostleaders don't know what to do
(00:33):
with feedback.
It's true, they don't.
It's very difficult for us, asleaders, to receive criticism,
receive feedback about our baby,our organization, the thing
we're leading.
We're doing the best we can.
And what's also true is,whether you know it or not, or
believe it or not, your peoplein your organization are scared
(00:53):
to death of giving you feedback.
They are so afraid because theyfeel like, if they are truthful
with you about how theorganization is going, how
they're experiencingorganization or experiencing as
a leader, it's going to becostly to them right, which,
unfortunately, history showsthat that is true.
(01:14):
So, since we're here to helpleaders get better, the question
is let's just have aconversation for a few minutes
about feedback feedback culture.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
How do?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
we, as leaders, create a culture of feedback, a
healthy culture of feedback, andhow do we make it safe for our
employees to actually berewarded and championed for
telling us the things that wedon't want to hear.
We don't like to hear?
Help us with this, matt.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
That's a whopper of a question how long do you have?
Well, hey, as long as you aslong as you want to go.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
We said we were to try to keep them short and I
love that.
You know we have conversationsall the time.
Part of this, this podcast, islet's capture some of the
conversations that we're having.
Yeah, we already don't know, islike most of the time, we just
hit record and so you don't evenreally know, like the exact
question I'm about to ask.
I just trust your, your wisdomand instincts, but this is a big
issue, man, feedback, like Iwill say, for me personally, I
(02:07):
have more bad experiences withfeedback than good as far as
giving it and it being received.
Well, I've been fired forhonest feedback.
I've been dismissed or I'vebeen, I've been, I've been fired
for honest feedback.
And so, if I'm, you know, I ownmy own business now and I want
to have, you know, a culture offeedback within our company.
But if I was working forsomebody right now, I'd be
honest with you, it would betough for me to go there.
(02:30):
Yeah, because I just don't havegood experiences with it.
What are your experiences with?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah, I mean some some good and some not not so
good.
You know, I have a way.
So this is going to be kind ofcrazy.
I've got four sisters and soI've got four sisters, and so
back in my music days and Iplayed music with a couple of
them, you know, yeah, I kind ofnavigated a way of giving
feedback about music with peoplewho were close to you.
(02:58):
Okay, that people were able tojust listen to what I had to say
.
So a lot of my like learninghow to give feedback came in a
musical setting.
I'm like, hey, that soundsreally good.
I think the part actually goeslike this though, can you try it
this way?
Yeah, and a little bit of thecompliment sandwich was my first
approach.
I'm going to come and feedback.
Hey, this is okay, this needsto get better, but if we do this
(03:20):
, I think it's going to be great.
And so I think I just learnedhow to give feedback in a way
that people can receive it.
Not perfectly, but you know, afunny story about feedback is
I'm a part of a club, a golfclub here in middle Tennessee.
You know it'll remain namelessfor now, but every time you play
around a golf or eat at theclubhouse, they send you like an
automated hey, give us a survey, we want to know how we did.
(03:40):
And honestly, I was reallycandid because there's a lot of
frustrations with the operationof the club.
There's a lot of frustrationswith leadership and management
and, um, you know you're payingfor a service that's unnecessary
.
I don't have to do this.
I can write, you know, cancelthis anytime and go do something
else.
So it's like if I'm going topay a premium, I want to have
premium experience, and afterall, the feedback fell on deaf
(04:02):
ears.
I just stopped doing it.
And so I talked to a newmembership director literally
yesterday and they were like hey, so tell us how you've been
doing.
I was like do you really wantto know how you've been doing?
Yeah, I'd love to know.
I was like well, um, this isgoing to get probably a little
uncomfortable.
The men's urinal for threeweeks wasn't working in the
bathroom and they put a kitchenbus tub underneath it to catch
(04:23):
the league.
Did you know that?
No, I didn't know that.
Would you put that on afeedback form?
I was like, no, I filled thosefeedback forms out for a year
and no one ever came to me andasked me any questions about it.
Right, and so I don't think,even if an organization has a
system for feedback, that theyreally want it all the time, and
the difference between a goodorganization and a great
organization is one thatactually pays attention to
feedback.
Yeah, so you just can't knowwhere you really are in the
(04:45):
world.
You can, um, you can look atsales and revenue and go, okay,
yeah, people are buying ourproduct or our service, so
things are going well, and maybeyou've got feedback about the
item, but you don't exactly knowlike, hey, we're really
connecting with our customers,we're really willing with our
staff or we're winning with, youknow, the community at large,
and so one of the best ways thatone of my favorite things about
(05:07):
feedback is, like Amazon, everytime I buy something I go
what's the star rating?
Can I read a couple of the bestreviews, a couple of the middle
reviews and a couple of thelower reviews, just to kind of
see what am I getting into?
Because you know, sometimes theproduct people will respond to
the bad feedback hey, thatdidn't work because X, y and Z
but so often the negativefeedback is never responded to.
(05:27):
And so I think, in a world wherepeople are like desperate for
differentiation, like how do Iget above my competition?
How do I become not just a goodbrand, but an excellent brand.
How do I become an excellentcompany?
And again, you have to haveyour north story.
You have to be, have yourconvictions that lead and guide
your organization.
But please pay attention to thefeedback that you're getting
from your staff and from yourcustomers.
(05:48):
And so I'll just tell one morestory.
I was working with a vendor onetime and we were paying them a
lot of money in a constructionfield and I just said, gosh, I
really like the person who leadsthis organization.
I think they're talented, Ithink they're brilliant and
they're really kind.
But I was committed to having areally good relationship with
(06:08):
this person.
I said hey, can I tell yousomething?
You guys missed expectations onthis spot right here.
And I'm telling you that notbecause I'm mad at you, because
I want to make an investment inyour company, and I think,
ultimately, that's what feedbackreally is.
Feedback is an investment.
So if you have an employee, hey, can I give you some feedback.
You're choosing to make aninvestment in them.
If you have a leader, hey, canI give you some feedback?
(06:29):
And it's risky, but you'rechoosing to make an investment.
And no investment comes withoutrisk.
But for me, I'm not going towork in an organization where
that is more risky than beinghonest.
Like my integrity, my thoughtsand my honesty are way higher
than going.
I'm going to tuck tail and notsay what I think here.
I just won't work in a placelike that.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
That's so good.
Yes, I just really relate towhat you're saying, because
there's been long seasons oftime where I have held honest
feedback and really what that isis the form of manipulation.
That's true, because you'rejust like I'm going to kind of
manipulate this.
I'm going to like we talk aboutleading up and all this
different things, but if you'renot willing to be honest and
(07:12):
kind of put yourself out therein risk, now there's wisdom,
there's probably a time and aplace and all this things that
not always.
Just like no leader wantssomeone falling around with
criticism all the time.
Right, and it's really theleader's responsibility to
invite that into an organizationanyway.
But, man, what you just saidabout having to decide between
(07:32):
am I going to be a person ofintegrity and honesty or am I
going to hold this stuff and bemiserable and it come out
sideways and all that stuff?
I've been that guy way too muchout of fear and looking back,
even though it would cost me, Iwould have much rather, for my
own personal integrity, be theone to stand up and say, hey,
here's something I'm seeing.
So here's my question to you,and we'll try to do this quickly
(07:53):
, but I've got two camps.
I want you to talk to you.
The first one I want you totalk to leaders.
Ok, how do we, as leaders,create a culture of healthy
feedback?
Yeah, so that our employeesfeel safe.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, First of all, it starts with a healthy
self-awareness Self-awarenessand humility to say I can
separate my performance from myidentity.
And I understand that thepeople I lead may not see the
blood, sweat and tears I put inoff hours after hours before
they ever started working inthis organization.
So I know that I may have madea contribution to this
(08:27):
organization they've never seen.
So if they criticize an aspectof my leadership, they're not
criticizing everything I've everdone.
They're saying hey, myexperience of you, when you
manage my KPIs or when youmanage my performance results, I
feel X, ok, great, all right, Ican work on my approach with
you.
And I think a really healthyleader says everybody I lead is
not wired the same, everybody Ilead is not wired like me.
(08:49):
Do I have time and capacity tolead them in a way that's unique
to them, that's going to getthe best results out of them as
an employee?
And then say I'm not gonna bePersonally offended, yeah, if
they say something I'm doing isnot meeting their expectations.
Right, honestly, I want to getbetter.
So I think it's an attitudethat says I'm willing to get
(09:09):
better and I'm willing to listento feedback from the people
that are seeing my workperformance up close as much as
possible, and also as yourleader.
I reserve the right to disagreewith your perspective.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, but also I'm not gonna punish you for being
honest with me, right, that's sogood.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well, if I could go back to like Drew as a, as a
younger leader, I would say, man, just shut up and listen.
Hmm, like, don't try to fix it,yeah don't be defensive.
Yeah, don't be defensive, justlisten to what they have to say.
Empathize with them becausethat's their experience of you
now and what you just said istrue.
I also don't have to agree withthem because, as a leader,
(09:45):
there's a lot of times where Iwas receiving feedback,
especially if it was criticalfeedback or more on the negative
side.
What I wanted to do is defendthat and which was true, that
this person is not seeingeverything that I'm seeing in
the organization.
They have one small, but that'sstill their experience of me as
a leader or the organization atthat moment.
And it was almost impossiblefor me even if I'd go into those
(10:07):
meetings saying don't defend itwas almost impossible for me to
not try to give perspective.
Yeah, if I had to over, I wouldhave done a much better job of
just listening, thanking themfor the feedback, reflecting
back, hey, empathizing like hey,listen, you know it's important
to me to hear this, thisperspective, this you know, and
(10:27):
and kind of meeting them in thatplace.
You don't have to necessarilyagree with them, but you can say
listen, I hear you and I seewhat you're saying.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
It's a it's a value to me and a really good practice
in that moment.
Just a brief side note is it'sprobably taking them months of
frustration and courage to havethat conversation.
They've probably said it sopoorly that they're almost
terrified, yeah.
So if you can in that momentjust say hey, listen, here's
what I think I heard you sayyeah, and just reframe it, not
reframe it, rephrase it.
(10:54):
Hey, did you say this?
Yes, I, that's, that's what I'mespecially if they see change
right.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Like how powerful would it be for an employee to
give some feedback and then, nottoo long after, here leaders
say hey, we received somefeedback on this and so this is
something that we're gonna do alittle different to help solve
this problem.
You don't have to out them, youcan keep them anonymous, all
those different things.
But for someone to be like, hey, they not only heard me, but
they're addressing right andthey're making some changes.
Well, now that people are gonnafeel more and more safe to
(11:19):
bring that, how refreshing is it?
Warning?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
how refreshing is it to work an Organization that
pivots?
I mean, the only constant inlife has changed, yeah, and why
do organizations think thatwe're not gonna change?
Whether it's policy orprocedure, things are different
than they were six months ago,six years ago, ten years ago.
So of course, you need toupdate systems and policies and
all that stuff, and Not that youbend to every whim because I'm
(11:41):
listen, you can hire some peopleon your team that they will.
Like we said in a previousepisode, every decision I don't
like is toxic and they pivot andall of a sudden you're, you're
beholden to the employees and soyou're off mission.
I'm not talking about criticalmission, strategic things.
I'm talking about likeleadership moments and how we
manage people, how we engagewith our teams.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yep, yeah, yeah and over time.
Like you know, there's timeswhere I received feedback as a
leader before and it wassomething that I did need to
actually deal with with thatemployee.
Yeah, it was something that theemployee was was Misaligned
with our mission or whatever,but at least in that moment I
think there's some, some goodpractices.
Yeah, you had a second question,I think yeah, I was gonna talk
to just there's mid-levelmanagers that listen to this,
(12:20):
and leaders, yeah, have to givefeedback too, so I wanted you to
speak directly to them.
What do we do as an employee,or what do we do when we're
given the opportunity forfeedback?
And, and how do we manage thatwhen we're feeling like, hey, I
gotta, this is risky.
You know, like even for thesafest of leaders, it's still
sure risky.
Well, how would you advise us?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So I think if there's not a systematic way to lead up
with feedback, it's reallydifficult.
So if an organization has aculture of 360 reviews, where a
leader is getting you knowsystematized feedback from
someone who works for them it'son my calendar, my annual review
.
Every year I get to hear fromthe people that I lead, the
people on you know peer level,the org chart and my leaders.
(12:59):
So three, six reviews is agreat way to do that.
But if you're an organizationthat doesn't have official
channels for feedback, youFeedback is like a bank account.
If you go in to an emptyrelationship account and try to
take a withdrawal, the check'sgonna bounce, so to speak.
(13:22):
And so I think it starts withhaving a good relationship with
your leader.
Some of the best advice I evergot as an employee was hey, care
about what your leader caresabout.
You will earn a lot ofinfluence if you understand that
hey, my leader really values X,and even if it's not natural to
me to value that, I'm gonnavalue that.
And over a season of time, ifyou are succeeding and winning
with your leader, if you'revaluing the things that your
(13:45):
leader values, you betterbelieve if you say hey, man, can
we have like a toughconversation.
I'd like to give you somefeedback.
And you've built equity in thatrelationship.
You've made investments intothat relationship account.
You can do that with a lot lessrisk.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, that's great.
One thing I would just add tothat real quick is a really
powerful question when it comesto giving feedback to your
leader is just to ask hey, somethings I'm noticing, are you
open to some feedback?
That's right, because at thatpoint you are not.
You know you're coming to themand giving them the ownership of
(14:20):
saying they could say no.
Right Now most of them won't.
Even if they're not open to it,they're gonna say yes, but at
least at that point there's ahumility and saying, hey, I'm
not going to just blast you withan email, which you know don't
ever do, that that's right.
But I'm going to come to youand say hey, there's some things
I'm noticing that feel off fromwhat I know you want to
accomplish and I've seen somethings.
(14:41):
Are you open to some feedback?
If not, that's fine.
And then, if they say no, thenyou can say okay, well now
you've got a decision to makefor yourself.
But it's kind of living in thisinterdependency, even within,
like you know, and not to getoff on that.
But we can be so codependent onone another and try to control
how each other feels and actsand behaves and all that kind of
stuff in an organization aswell.
(15:02):
But it's saying, hey, I'm goingto give you the right to choose
whether you get the feedback ornot, and if you say no, then I
get to take ownership of my ownstuff and some like 401, you
know, level stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
When it comes to feedback, something I tell my
kids all the time is hey, what?
How you say something is justas important as what you say may
be more important.
And so when you have got somenuance and subtleties to the way
you're communicating, like yousaid, if I just blast an email
to my leader with no context orno emotion, it's difficult to
understand what they're reallysaying.
Like you, better not expect areally great response.
(15:35):
But if you can have a greatconversation where it's open and
it's honest, and your posture,your facial expressions, the way
you communicate, all that stuffmatters.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Right and talk about yourself.
Don't talk about them Like.
I think great feedback is not.
You're messing up, you're doingthis.
It's like here's what I'mexperiencing.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Here's what I'm feeling.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Like because you can't really argue with
someone's experience or howthey're feeling, whether it's
right or wrong, it's how they'refeeling.
So as soon as you point thefinger at me as a leader and you
start telling me all the thingsI'm doing wrong, it's going to
be not as well received ifyou're just talking about
yourself, like here's somethingI'm noticing or I'm seeing or
I'm feeling, and then you'realso inviting me into clarify as
a leader, like so could youbring some clarity to this, or
(16:13):
is there something I'm missingor not seeing?
Just a mutual humility there,but maybe we'll wrap with this.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I would just say, if you're unfortunate enough to be
in an organization that is notreally great with feedback, you
can be the change in anorganization like that by going
first.
And it starts with thatquestion hey, do you have any
feedback for me?
Do you have any feedback for me?
And you better believe if Ihave an employee who, every time
(16:38):
we have a one on one, ask me ifI have any feedback for them.
You'd have to be an idiot atsome point not to reflect that
back to them.
Hey, man, thanks for asking meabout feedback.
Do you have any feedback for me?
And you can be the change tostart to grow something in your
culture to make it better.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Thanks, dude.
All right.
So, matt, it's a good one thing.
One thing that we're bothpassionate about is helping
leaders get better.
Yeah, that's why this podcastexists.
So we're going to be truthfulon this podcast, right, and so I
want leaders to know that weare on the side of leaders
getting better.
But here's what's true Mostleaders don't know what to do
(00:33):
with feedback.
It's true, they don't.
It's very difficult for us, asleaders, to receive criticism,
receive feedback about our baby,our organization, the thing
we're leading.
We're doing the best we can.
And what's also true is,whether you know it or not, or
believe it or not, your peoplein your organization are scared
(00:53):
to death of giving you feedback.
They are so afraid because theyfeel like, if they are truthful
with you about how theorganization is going, how
they're experiencingorganization or experiencing as
a leader, it's going to becostly to them right, which,
unfortunately, history showsthat that is true.
(01:14):
So, since we're here to helpleaders get better, the question
is let's just have aconversation for a few minutes
about feedback feedback culture.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
How do?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
we, as leaders, create a culture of feedback, a
healthy culture of feedback, andhow do we make it safe for our
employees to actually berewarded and championed for
telling us the things that wedon't want to hear.
We don't like to hear?
Help us with this, matt.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
That's a whopper of a question how long do you have?
Well, hey, as long as you aslong as you want to go.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
We said we were to try to keep them short and I
love that.
You know we have conversationsall the time.
Part of this, this podcast, islet's capture some of the
conversations that we're having.
Yeah, we already don't know, islike most of the time, we just
hit record and so you don't evenreally know, like the exact
question I'm about to ask.
I just trust your, your wisdomand instincts, but this is a big
issue, man, feedback, like Iwill say, for me personally, I
(02:07):
have more bad experiences withfeedback than good as far as
giving it and it being received.
Well, I've been fired forhonest feedback.
I've been dismissed or I'vebeen, I've been, I've been fired
for honest feedback.
And so, if I'm, you know, I ownmy own business now and I want
to have, you know, a culture offeedback within our company.
But if I was working forsomebody right now, I'd be
honest with you, it would betough for me to go there.
(02:30):
Yeah, because I just don't havegood experiences with it.
What are your experiences with?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah, I mean some some good and some not not so
good.
You know, I have a way.
So this is going to be kind ofcrazy.
I've got four sisters and soI've got four sisters, and so
back in my music days and Iplayed music with a couple of
them, you know, yeah, I kind ofnavigated a way of giving
feedback about music with peoplewho were close to you.
(02:58):
Okay, that people were able tojust listen to what I had to say
.
So a lot of my like learninghow to give feedback came in a
musical setting.
I'm like, hey, that soundsreally good.
I think the part actually goeslike this though, can you try it
this way?
Yeah, and a little bit of thecompliment sandwich was my first
approach.
I'm going to come and feedback.
Hey, this is okay, this needsto get better, but if we do this
(03:20):
, I think it's going to be great.
And so I think I just learnedhow to give feedback in a way
that people can receive it.
Not perfectly, but you know, afunny story about feedback is
I'm a part of a club, a golfclub here in middle Tennessee.
You know it'll remain namelessfor now, but every time you play
around a golf or eat at theclubhouse, they send you like an
automated hey, give us a survey, we want to know how we did.
(03:40):
And honestly, I was reallycandid because there's a lot of
frustrations with the operationof the club.
There's a lot of frustrationswith leadership and management
and, um, you know you're payingfor a service that's unnecessary
.
I don't have to do this.
I can write, you know, cancelthis anytime and go do something
else.
So it's like if I'm going topay a premium, I want to have
premium experience, and afterall, the feedback fell on deaf
(04:02):
ears.
I just stopped doing it.
And so I talked to a newmembership director literally
yesterday and they were like hey, so tell us how you've been
doing.
I was like do you really wantto know how you've been doing?
Yeah, I'd love to know.
I was like well, um, this isgoing to get probably a little
uncomfortable.
The men's urinal for threeweeks wasn't working in the
bathroom and they put a kitchenbus tub underneath it to catch
(04:23):
the league.
Did you know that?
No, I didn't know that.
Would you put that on afeedback form?
I was like, no, I filled thosefeedback forms out for a year
and no one ever came to me andasked me any questions about it.
Right, and so I don't think,even if an organization has a
system for feedback, that theyreally want it all the time, and
the difference between a goodorganization and a great
organization is one thatactually pays attention to
feedback.
Yeah, so you just can't knowwhere you really are in the
(04:45):
world.
You can, um, you can look atsales and revenue and go, okay,
yeah, people are buying ourproduct or our service, so
things are going well, and maybeyou've got feedback about the
item, but you don't exactly knowlike, hey, we're really
connecting with our customers,we're really willing with our
staff or we're winning with, youknow, the community at large,
and so one of the best ways thatone of my favorite things about
(05:07):
feedback is, like Amazon, everytime I buy something I go
what's the star rating?
Can I read a couple of the bestreviews, a couple of the middle
reviews and a couple of thelower reviews, just to kind of
see what am I getting into?
Because you know, sometimes theproduct people will respond to
the bad feedback hey, thatdidn't work because X, y and Z
but so often the negativefeedback is never responded to.
(05:27):
And so I think, in a world wherepeople are like desperate for
differentiation, like how do Iget above my competition?
How do I become not just a goodbrand, but an excellent brand.
How do I become an excellentcompany?
And again, you have to haveyour north story.
You have to be, have yourconvictions that lead and guide
your organization.
But please pay attention to thefeedback that you're getting
from your staff and from yourcustomers.
(05:48):
And so I'll just tell one morestory.
I was working with a vendor onetime and we were paying them a
lot of money in a constructionfield and I just said, gosh, I
really like the person who leadsthis organization.
I think they're talented, Ithink they're brilliant and
they're really kind.
But I was committed to having areally good relationship with
(06:08):
this person.
I said hey, can I tell yousomething?
You guys missed expectations onthis spot right here.
And I'm telling you that notbecause I'm mad at you, because
I want to make an investment inyour company, and I think,
ultimately, that's what feedbackreally is.
Feedback is an investment.
So if you have an employee, hey, can I give you some feedback.
You're choosing to make aninvestment in them.
If you have a leader, hey, canI give you some feedback?
(06:29):
And it's risky, but you'rechoosing to make an investment.
And no investment comes withoutrisk.
But for me, I'm not going towork in an organization where
that is more risky than beinghonest.
Like my integrity, my thoughtsand my honesty are way higher
than going.
I'm going to tuck tail and notsay what I think here.
I just won't work in a placelike that.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
That's so good.
Yes, I just really relate towhat you're saying, because
there's been long seasons oftime where I have held honest
feedback and really what that isis the form of manipulation.
That's true, because you'rejust like I'm going to kind of
manipulate this.
I'm going to like we talk aboutleading up and all this
different things, but if you'renot willing to be honest and
(07:12):
kind of put yourself out therein risk, now there's wisdom,
there's probably a time and aplace and all this things that
not always.
Just like no leader wantssomeone falling around with
criticism all the time.
Right, and it's really theleader's responsibility to
invite that into an organizationanyway.
But, man, what you just saidabout having to decide between
(07:32):
am I going to be a person ofintegrity and honesty or am I
going to hold this stuff and bemiserable and it come out
sideways and all that stuff?
I've been that guy way too muchout of fear and looking back,
even though it would cost me, Iwould have much rather, for my
own personal integrity, be theone to stand up and say, hey,
here's something I'm seeing.
So here's my question to you,and we'll try to do this quickly
(07:53):
, but I've got two camps.
I want you to talk to you.
The first one I want you totalk to leaders.
Ok, how do we, as leaders,create a culture of healthy
feedback?
Yeah, so that our employeesfeel safe.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, First of all, it starts with a healthy
self-awareness Self-awarenessand humility to say I can
separate my performance from myidentity.
And I understand that thepeople I lead may not see the
blood, sweat and tears I put inoff hours after hours before
they ever started working inthis organization.
So I know that I may have madea contribution to this
(08:27):
organization they've never seen.
So if they criticize an aspectof my leadership, they're not
criticizing everything I've everdone.
They're saying hey, myexperience of you, when you
manage my KPIs or when youmanage my performance results, I
feel X, ok, great, all right, Ican work on my approach with
you.
And I think a really healthyleader says everybody I lead is
not wired the same, everybody Ilead is not wired like me.
(08:49):
Do I have time and capacity tolead them in a way that's unique
to them, that's going to getthe best results out of them as
an employee?
And then say I'm not gonna bePersonally offended, yeah, if
they say something I'm doing isnot meeting their expectations.
Right, honestly, I want to getbetter.
So I think it's an attitudethat says I'm willing to get
(09:09):
better and I'm willing to listento feedback from the people
that are seeing my workperformance up close as much as
possible, and also as yourleader.
I reserve the right to disagreewith your perspective.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, but also I'm not gonna punish you for being
honest with me, right, that's sogood.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well, if I could go back to like Drew as a, as a
younger leader, I would say, man, just shut up and listen.
Hmm, like, don't try to fix it,yeah don't be defensive.
Yeah, don't be defensive, justlisten to what they have to say.
Empathize with them becausethat's their experience of you
now and what you just said istrue.
I also don't have to agree withthem because, as a leader,
(09:45):
there's a lot of times where Iwas receiving feedback,
especially if it was criticalfeedback or more on the negative
side.
What I wanted to do is defendthat and which was true, that
this person is not seeingeverything that I'm seeing in
the organization.
They have one small, but that'sstill their experience of me as
a leader or the organization atthat moment.
And it was almost impossiblefor me even if I'd go into those
(10:07):
meetings saying don't defend itwas almost impossible for me to
not try to give perspective.
Yeah, if I had to over, I wouldhave done a much better job of
just listening, thanking themfor the feedback, reflecting
back, hey, empathizing like hey,listen, you know it's important
to me to hear this, thisperspective, this you know, and
(10:27):
and kind of meeting them in thatplace.
You don't have to necessarilyagree with them, but you can say
listen, I hear you and I seewhat you're saying.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
It's a it's a value to me and a really good practice
in that moment.
Just a brief side note is it'sprobably taking them months of
frustration and courage to havethat conversation.
They've probably said it sopoorly that they're almost
terrified, yeah.
So if you can in that momentjust say hey, listen, here's
what I think I heard you sayyeah, and just reframe it, not
reframe it, rephrase it.
(10:54):
Hey, did you say this?
Yes, I, that's, that's what I'mespecially if they see change
right.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Like how powerful would it be for an employee to
give some feedback and then, nottoo long after, here leaders
say hey, we received somefeedback on this and so this is
something that we're gonna do alittle different to help solve
this problem.
You don't have to out them, youcan keep them anonymous, all
those different things.
But for someone to be like, hey, they not only heard me, but
they're addressing right andthey're making some changes.
Well, now that people are gonnafeel more and more safe to
(11:19):
bring that, how refreshing is it?
Warning?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
how refreshing is it to work an Organization that
pivots?
I mean, the only constant inlife has changed, yeah, and why
do organizations think thatwe're not gonna change?
Whether it's policy orprocedure, things are different
than they were six months ago,six years ago, ten years ago.
So of course, you need toupdate systems and policies and
all that stuff, and Not that youbend to every whim because I'm
(11:41):
listen, you can hire some peopleon your team that they will.
Like we said in a previousepisode, every decision I don't
like is toxic and they pivot andall of a sudden you're, you're
beholden to the employees and soyou're off mission.
I'm not talking about criticalmission, strategic things.
I'm talking about likeleadership moments and how we
manage people, how we engagewith our teams.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yep, yeah, yeah and over time.
Like you know, there's timeswhere I received feedback as a
leader before and it wassomething that I did need to
actually deal with with thatemployee.
Yeah, it was something that theemployee was was Misaligned
with our mission or whatever,but at least in that moment I
think there's some, some goodpractices.
Yeah, you had a second question,I think yeah, I was gonna talk
to just there's mid-levelmanagers that listen to this,
(12:20):
and leaders, yeah, have to givefeedback too, so I wanted you to
speak directly to them.
What do we do as an employee,or what do we do when we're
given the opportunity forfeedback?
And, and how do we manage thatwhen we're feeling like, hey, I
gotta, this is risky.
You know, like even for thesafest of leaders, it's still
sure risky.
Well, how would you advise us?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So I think if there's not a systematic way to lead up
with feedback, it's reallydifficult.
So if an organization has aculture of 360 reviews, where a
leader is getting you knowsystematized feedback from
someone who works for them it'son my calendar, my annual review
.
Every year I get to hear fromthe people that I lead, the
people on you know peer level,the org chart and my leaders.
(12:59):
So three, six reviews is agreat way to do that.
But if you're an organizationthat doesn't have official
channels for feedback, youFeedback is like a bank account.
If you go in to an emptyrelationship account and try to
take a withdrawal, the check'sgonna bounce, so to speak.
(13:22):
And so I think it starts withhaving a good relationship with
your leader.
Some of the best advice I evergot as an employee was hey, care
about what your leader caresabout.
You will earn a lot ofinfluence if you understand that
hey, my leader really values X,and even if it's not natural to
me to value that, I'm gonnavalue that.
And over a season of time, ifyou are succeeding and winning
with your leader, if you'revaluing the things that your
(13:45):
leader values, you betterbelieve if you say hey, man, can
we have like a toughconversation.
I'd like to give you somefeedback.
And you've built equity in thatrelationship.
You've made investments intothat relationship account.
You can do that with a lot lessrisk.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, that's great.
One thing I would just add tothat real quick is a really
powerful question when it comesto giving feedback to your
leader is just to ask hey, somethings I'm noticing, are you
open to some feedback?
That's right, because at thatpoint you are not.
You know you're coming to themand giving them the ownership of
(14:20):
saying they could say no.
Right Now most of them won't.
Even if they're not open to it,they're gonna say yes, but at
least at that point there's ahumility and saying, hey, I'm
not going to just blast you withan email, which you know don't
ever do, that that's right.
But I'm going to come to youand say hey, there's some things
I'm noticing that feel off fromwhat I know you want to
accomplish and I've seen somethings.
(14:41):
Are you open to some feedback?
If not, that's fine.
And then, if they say no, thenyou can say okay, well now
you've got a decision to makefor yourself.
But it's kind of living in thisinterdependency, even within,
like you know, and not to getoff on that.
But we can be so codependent onone another and try to control
how each other feels and actsand behaves and all that kind of
stuff in an organization aswell.
(15:02):
But it's saying, hey, I'm goingto give you the right to choose
whether you get the feedback ornot, and if you say no, then I
get to take ownership of my ownstuff and some like 401, you
know, level stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
When it comes to feedback, something I tell my
kids all the time is hey, what?
How you say something is justas important as what you say may
be more important.
And so when you have got somenuance and subtleties to the way
you're communicating, like yousaid, if I just blast an email
to my leader with no context orno emotion, it's difficult to
understand what they're reallysaying.
Like you, better not expect areally great response.
(15:35):
But if you can have a greatconversation where it's open and
it's honest, and your posture,your facial expressions, the way
you communicate, all that stuffmatters.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Right and talk about yourself.
Don't talk about them Like.
I think great feedback is not.
You're messing up, you're doingthis.
It's like here's what I'mexperiencing.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Here's what I'm feeling.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Like because you can't really argue with
someone's experience or howthey're feeling, whether it's
right or wrong, it's how they'refeeling.
So as soon as you point thefinger at me as a leader and you
start telling me all the thingsI'm doing wrong, it's going to
be not as well received ifyou're just talking about
yourself, like here's somethingI'm noticing or I'm seeing or
I'm feeling, and then you'realso inviting me into clarify as
a leader, like so could youbring some clarity to this, or
(16:13):
is there something I'm missingor not seeing?
Just a mutual humility there,but maybe we'll wrap with this.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I would just say, if you're unfortunate enough to be
in an organization that is notreally great with feedback, you
can be the change in anorganization like that by going
first.
And it starts with thatquestion hey, do you have any
feedback for me?
Do you have any feedback for me?
And you better believe if Ihave an employee who, every time
(16:38):
we have a one on one, ask me ifI have any feedback for them.
You'd have to be an idiot atsome point not to reflect that
back to them.
Hey, man, thanks for asking meabout feedback.
Do you have any feedback for me?
And you can be the change tostart to grow something in your
culture to make it better.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Thanks, dude.
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