Does your leader impact your mental health? A new study says that's true, but it doesn't have to be.
February 20, 2024 • 13 mins
For good and for bad, leaders (employers) have huge influence on the people they lead. AND, as employees it's imperative we don't give away more of our emotional and mental health than we have to, even as we contribute at high levels in our jobs. Today Drew and Matt talk about redefining our relationship with work so we can live healthier lives.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
So, Drew, last week I think we ruffled some feathers
with the conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Yeah, that's like your new goal, starting to get
me all worked up on something Ithink.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I like poking the bear, as you said last week.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
And what's crazy is you just sit back and let me get
us in trouble.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I like it when fraction X gets in trouble.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
My disclaimer is I've got six months to go back and
disagree with it.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
That's fair.
Somebody that listens to thepodcast sent me this clip and
the guy was saying a new studyhas revealed that your manager
has more impact on your mentalhealth than your doctor, your
family or anything else in yourlife.
Yeah, and it kind of stuck withme.
I sent it to you and I thinkit's a big statement for a lot
(00:55):
of reasons and I actually wantto talk about why in the world
would that be the case?
Yeah, so what did you?
What did you think when you sawthat?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Well, I actually had a lot come up for me when you
sent that over, because I feellike I'm somewhere in the middle
.
Okay, because I agree, I agreewith that and I hate that.
I agree with that, right.
Like I feel like, I feel likethat's been true for me and I've
also feel like why did I givemy manager so much power over me
(01:25):
, right?
So it's like I think it's true,I think, but I don't think it
has to be true.
I just think we're wired,especially in America, where our
work and our jobs and ouridentity is so intertwined that,
for whatever reason at work andat our job because it goes back
to last week we throw aroundcalling and we throw around all
(01:45):
these big words around.
So it's like it becomes so coreto who we are that that person
who's in leadership over us inan organization really holds all
the cards in some ways for ourmental health.
That impacts our families.
Well, first of all impacts ourphysical health, our emotional
health, mental health.
Then it impacts our family, allthe things we would say are the
(02:07):
most important things to us.
This one person at work usuallyone person at work holds the
keys to our contentment and ourpeace and I was like that's
messed up and outside of maybe ahandful of legitimate
psychopaths.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
I don't think most managers know that's the case,
because they're dealing withtheir own stuff, exactly right,
you know.
And if it's in the middle ofthe organization, they've got
leadership, or if they're at thetop of the organization,
they've got the board, orthey've got shareholders or
something that's above them.
So they don't think how is myleadership?
How's my decisions?
How is that impacting thepeople I lead?
It's just not top of mind forthem.
(02:45):
Again, they're probably ahandful of very small handful of
people that are really like I'mgoing to take advantage of this
, and most people arewell-meaning, Exactly Like even
the managers in the past thatI've worked for.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Leaders I've worked for in the past that have really
done damage quote unquote to mymental health.
Or I would say let me rephrasethat that I've allowed to do
that.
They're great people.
Like they weren't, like hey,let me see if I can destroy Drew
and his whole life and hisworld and everything else.
They're just trying to figureit out and they're trying to
make they're not deceitful,they're not whatever.
(03:14):
It's like you know.
And so, to your point, I'mgoing to a lot of grace for
leaders.
I need grip man, I've been thatguy, yeah, you know, probably
more often than not where thingsI've done, decisions I've made,
has caused great impact on thepeople that I was leading.
Right, and so this is not hereto tear down the managers.
Maybe bring some awareness.
Like, hey, we, we actually canmake a difference in the lives
(03:37):
of people that we're leading.
But more so for those of us toset boundaries to where like.
If that's true, ask ourselveswhy and I think also, when you
were talking a minute ago, justget on my soapbox.
We've, we've got to stop usingwords like toxic, so much, Okay,
(03:57):
Why's that?
Well, I just think it's been abuzzword Like and I think we end
up using toxic whenever there'sa leader organization that does
something that we don't wantthem to do, Instead of just
saying, hey, they're going adifferent direction or a
different path, or I don't likethat decision.
It's so easily concerned towell, this is a toxic
organization, or this is a toxicleader or this, I'm like most
(04:19):
of the time no, it's not, youjust don't like where it's going
, Sure.
And so because you don't likeit and because you're getting
your, you know you're gettingupset about the direction or how
that impacts your life or yourfamily, or because you're so
ingrained into you know,personally into this, this
organization.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
You're so invested?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, you're so invested, then all of a sudden
it's like, if it's something Idisagree with, all of a sudden
this person or this organizationis toxic.
Most likely, what you need todo is just take ownership over,
like hey, maybe I'm not alignedwith the mission or vision right
now and Allow yourself.
(04:58):
Give yourself the freedom to godo something else.
That's right.
You don't have to stay there,you know.
And so again, I know that soapboxy and I'm really curious
because I feel like you, matt,have been able to Like you're
way more consistent than I'vebeen like.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
I feel like I've been the type of person that can
ride that emotional wave of LikeI'm preaching to myself, you
know, right now, no, I meanyou're kind of say that, but no,
I think I've made just as manyleadership failures as anybody
else has with a track recordlike mine.
You know, when I saw that clipI think I thought two things.
One is like you talked aboutfor the managers out there.
Do you understand that you'vegot a disproportionate impact on
(05:33):
the people you lead, right you?
There is a power dynamic atplay just because a lot of times
you control a salary orsomeone's employment.
So there's just this, thistension in a relationship, right
that someone can make adecision that affects your fire
someone.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
That relationship, right Right there has a tension,
right you know and that's notgonna go away.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
No, I actually don't think.
When I saw the clip I was like,hey, we got to solve management
and leadership.
No, I do think case Moment ofself-awareness, like we've
talked about on the podcast alot you do lead people that you
can impact.
So if you can impact them forthe positive right and that's a
different podcast on some levelto talk about that what I really
thought was man, we have toreally rearrange our
(06:16):
relationship with work.
Like if my mental health can becompletely Derailed by someone
who's my leader, who, like yousaid, is probably not making a
toxic decision, they're justmaking something they think is
best for the organization.
So maybe it's more work, maybeit's more output, maybe it's
more engagement.
They're asking for maybesomething more and you're like,
oh, that's killing my mentalhealth.
Well, maybe you've got anunhealthy relationship with work
(06:38):
in the first place.
And so, again, I know this is areally like tense subject and
for me it's like we do get somuch purpose, we get so much
meaning, we get satisfaction outof using the gifts.
We have to make a difference inthe world.
You know, not everybody doespurpose work.
Some people just, you know,sell widgets and they just ended
so widgets to provide for theirfamily.
But even that is a useful,purposeful thing.
(06:58):
I'm using what I have my timeand my resources, my gifts to
provide a service for a company.
In return, they pay me a salarythat I can, yeah, have food,
shelter and provide for myfamily.
Yeah, so I know there's gonna bealways this kind of tension
around the relationship, butwhen you give so much power to
an organization that a badmanager is messing up your
mental health, maybe you shouldhave this internal dialogue of
(07:21):
like okay, if my power is mineto give to somebody, right, is
it also mine to give?
Like, bring it back Right andhave more control over my
emotions and my energy and sayI'm gonna draw a line here at
work.
Like I'm gonna do my best, I'mgonna do a great job.
Yeah, as long as I'm not askingme to do anything illegal or
unethical, I can draw a line andnot put my emotions into this
(07:42):
the way that it would damage mymental health.
Now, maybe that's easier saidthan done.
It's probably easier for me todo it than other people.
But I would say don't give yourpower to a place like that, and
if it's at a point where youcan't manage it.
You're like this person isabsolutely wrecking my mental
health.
Leave.
Yeah, they're, get out, they'rehelp wanted signs and every
other building down the streetand I get like some industries
(08:04):
are tough to move in and out.
Of.
You may have to, like leave acity and that, trust me, I know
that's a very difficult decision, right, but at the end of the
day, don't give away somethingso significant like the how
sacred mental health is, becausethat affects you, it affects
your family, it affectseverything about your life.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Well, absolutely, and even just to go back a little
bit that I want to be clear andsay there are Definitely toxic
environments and toxic leaders,right and to your point.
When that, when that happens,when it's actually deadly and
destructive To you, your family,whatever, absolutely, you've
got to not have a scarcitymindset, you got to leave, you
got to go right.
So I want to be clear that I'mnot saying that that doesn't
(08:44):
exist.
But, as you were talking justnow, you know, I think part of
the issue is Money, and financesare such a major source of
stress and anxiety in mostpeople's lives, right?
So, as most people, it's likeyou know.
And so I think, at the end ofthe day, it's you know, and I've
(09:07):
been part of the organizationswho attract people because of
purpose and calling, and thenmost people who have left my
team have left because they'relike, listen, I'm tired of
struggling financially,financially, yeah, and I'm like,
yeah, I gotta bless you forthat and I can go do that, right
.
And so I think a lot of thereasons why even we're having
(09:31):
this conversation and there's somuch identity wrapped up in
work and why it can impact ourmental health is because it
impacts our money.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And because money for a lot of us and I'll put myself
if I'm not careful finances andmoney will be the thing that is
center in my life, the thing Imean I've got a family, I've got
like, when you mess with mymoney and my provision and
everything else, or I have tomake decisions that put me in a
(10:02):
financial unknown, that can putme in a mental health crisis
immediately, and so here we aremaking money, kind of the Lord
of our life, if you will right,which is understandable.
It makes sense as to why theperson who can impact that
livelihood is the person whocaused us the most stress,
because what that actually means, when you say just leave, it's
(10:24):
like, well, great, that soundsgreat, but how do I provide?
And so I just think it's areframing.
Like you said, there is a deepwork that has to be done around
this idea of do I trust that theuniverse, your higher power,
(10:44):
whatever you would say that Godis actually kind, is actually a
provider, that good things likewhat is my philosophical belief
about the world?
That good things come my way,that I can make hard decisions
that are right, based on values,and those will be rewarded in
whatever like cosmic ecosystemthat we believe in.
(11:05):
You know what I'm saying.
So I think most of us,including myself, live with a
scarcity mindset, live around.
If I draw boundary here, thenI'm gonna really be screwed or
I'm really struggle.
Well, what I've found justrecently, in the last few years,
for me personally, is that onthe other side of very difficult
(11:25):
decisions are good things.
We don't have to live with ascarcity mindset.
So this is a long winded mejust saying I get it like it's
super tough.
It's super tough to make thosedecisions and it makes sense why
a leader can have so muchinfluence over your mental
health.
But I think back to your pointand you always say things
(11:46):
shorter and better.
I'm long winded to get to mypoint but I do think that you
know us reframing ourrelationship with work, like
going back to that clip.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I think if we draw boundaries over what we value
and who we are as individuals,we don't have to allow that
statistic to be true right, yeah, and I think my last thing
because we do always wanna keepthis short, like we talk about
is, if you're a person who feelslike you are the person whose
mental health is being impacted.
My number one thing before youmake any other decision, before
(12:20):
you put your resume on LinkedIn,is get perspective first.
A lot of times, when you cansee the situation for what it is
, things get clear and if youever travel to third world
countries, you can see there'snot an association with
resources and happiness andsatisfaction.
That is a uniquely kind ofAmerican Western culture value
where, if I have resources, Ican be content, and cultures
(12:44):
after cultures and places wherethere are little to no resources
.
People are so satisfied and I'mnot saying life is easy there,
but I think perspective willshow you that man, maybe things
won't be quite as bad as I thinkthey are, but when we are
holding our job and our financesthis close to our face, you
just can't see what's really outthere and it's like, okay,
climb up a mountain, get sometime away and try to see life
(13:06):
for what it really is and Iguarantee you taking a 10 or 20
or 30% pay drop to switchindustries or to move cities
would be a trade you'd make overand, over and over again to
have what feels like a healthylife back.
Good stuff, man.
Thanks, man, yeah.
So, Drew, last week I think we ruffled some feathers
with the conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Yeah, that's like your new goal, starting to get
me all worked up on something Ithink.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I like poking the bear, as you said last week.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
And what's crazy is you just sit back and let me get
us in trouble.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I like it when fraction X gets in trouble.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
My disclaimer is I've got six months to go back and
disagree with it.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
That's fair.
Somebody that listens to thepodcast sent me this clip and
the guy was saying a new studyhas revealed that your manager
has more impact on your mentalhealth than your doctor, your
family or anything else in yourlife.
Yeah, and it kind of stuck withme.
I sent it to you and I thinkit's a big statement for a lot
(00:55):
of reasons and I actually wantto talk about why in the world
would that be the case?
Yeah, so what did you?
What did you think when you sawthat?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Well, I actually had a lot come up for me when you
sent that over, because I feellike I'm somewhere in the middle
.
Okay, because I agree, I agreewith that and I hate that.
I agree with that, right.
Like I feel like, I feel likethat's been true for me and I've
also feel like why did I givemy manager so much power over me
(01:25):
, right?
So it's like I think it's true,I think, but I don't think it
has to be true.
I just think we're wired,especially in America, where our
work and our jobs and ouridentity is so intertwined that,
for whatever reason at work andat our job because it goes back
to last week we throw aroundcalling and we throw around all
(01:45):
these big words around.
So it's like it becomes so coreto who we are that that person
who's in leadership over us inan organization really holds all
the cards in some ways for ourmental health.
That impacts our families.
Well, first of all impacts ourphysical health, our emotional
health, mental health.
Then it impacts our family, allthe things we would say are the
(02:07):
most important things to us.
This one person at work usuallyone person at work holds the
keys to our contentment and ourpeace and I was like that's
messed up and outside of maybe ahandful of legitimate
psychopaths.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
I don't think most managers know that's the case,
because they're dealing withtheir own stuff, exactly right,
you know.
And if it's in the middle ofthe organization, they've got
leadership, or if they're at thetop of the organization,
they've got the board, orthey've got shareholders or
something that's above them.
So they don't think how is myleadership?
How's my decisions?
How is that impacting thepeople I lead?
It's just not top of mind forthem.
(02:45):
Again, they're probably ahandful of very small handful of
people that are really like I'mgoing to take advantage of this
, and most people arewell-meaning, Exactly Like even
the managers in the past thatI've worked for.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Leaders I've worked for in the past that have really
done damage quote unquote to mymental health.
Or I would say let me rephrasethat that I've allowed to do
that.
They're great people.
Like they weren't, like hey,let me see if I can destroy Drew
and his whole life and hisworld and everything else.
They're just trying to figureit out and they're trying to
make they're not deceitful,they're not whatever.
(03:14):
It's like you know.
And so, to your point, I'mgoing to a lot of grace for
leaders.
I need grip man, I've been thatguy, yeah, you know, probably
more often than not where thingsI've done, decisions I've made,
has caused great impact on thepeople that I was leading.
Right, and so this is not hereto tear down the managers.
Maybe bring some awareness.
Like, hey, we, we actually canmake a difference in the lives
(03:37):
of people that we're leading.
But more so for those of us toset boundaries to where like.
If that's true, ask ourselveswhy and I think also, when you
were talking a minute ago, justget on my soapbox.
We've, we've got to stop usingwords like toxic, so much, Okay,
(03:57):
Why's that?
Well, I just think it's been abuzzword Like and I think we end
up using toxic whenever there'sa leader organization that does
something that we don't wantthem to do, Instead of just
saying, hey, they're going adifferent direction or a
different path, or I don't likethat decision.
It's so easily concerned towell, this is a toxic
organization, or this is a toxicleader or this, I'm like most
(04:19):
of the time no, it's not, youjust don't like where it's going
, Sure.
And so because you don't likeit and because you're getting
your, you know you're gettingupset about the direction or how
that impacts your life or yourfamily, or because you're so
ingrained into you know,personally into this, this
organization.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
You're so invested?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, you're so invested, then all of a sudden
it's like, if it's something Idisagree with, all of a sudden
this person or this organizationis toxic.
Most likely, what you need todo is just take ownership over,
like hey, maybe I'm not alignedwith the mission or vision right
now and Allow yourself.
(04:58):
Give yourself the freedom to godo something else.
That's right.
You don't have to stay there,you know.
And so again, I know that soapboxy and I'm really curious
because I feel like you, matt,have been able to Like you're
way more consistent than I'vebeen like.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
I feel like I've been the type of person that can
ride that emotional wave of LikeI'm preaching to myself, you
know, right now, no, I meanyou're kind of say that, but no,
I think I've made just as manyleadership failures as anybody
else has with a track recordlike mine.
You know, when I saw that clipI think I thought two things.
One is like you talked aboutfor the managers out there.
Do you understand that you'vegot a disproportionate impact on
(05:33):
the people you lead, right you?
There is a power dynamic atplay just because a lot of times
you control a salary orsomeone's employment.
So there's just this, thistension in a relationship, right
that someone can make adecision that affects your fire
someone.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
That relationship, right Right there has a tension,
right you know and that's notgonna go away.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
No, I actually don't think.
When I saw the clip I was like,hey, we got to solve management
and leadership.
No, I do think case Moment ofself-awareness, like we've
talked about on the podcast alot you do lead people that you
can impact.
So if you can impact them forthe positive right and that's a
different podcast on some levelto talk about that what I really
thought was man, we have toreally rearrange our
(06:16):
relationship with work.
Like if my mental health can becompletely Derailed by someone
who's my leader, who, like yousaid, is probably not making a
toxic decision, they're justmaking something they think is
best for the organization.
So maybe it's more work, maybeit's more output, maybe it's
more engagement.
They're asking for maybesomething more and you're like,
oh, that's killing my mentalhealth.
Well, maybe you've got anunhealthy relationship with work
(06:38):
in the first place.
And so, again, I know this is areally like tense subject and
for me it's like we do get somuch purpose, we get so much
meaning, we get satisfaction outof using the gifts.
We have to make a difference inthe world.
You know, not everybody doespurpose work.
Some people just, you know,sell widgets and they just ended
so widgets to provide for theirfamily.
But even that is a useful,purposeful thing.
(06:58):
I'm using what I have my timeand my resources, my gifts to
provide a service for a company.
In return, they pay me a salarythat I can, yeah, have food,
shelter and provide for myfamily.
Yeah, so I know there's gonna bealways this kind of tension
around the relationship, butwhen you give so much power to
an organization that a badmanager is messing up your
mental health, maybe you shouldhave this internal dialogue of
(07:21):
like okay, if my power is mineto give to somebody, right, is
it also mine to give?
Like, bring it back Right andhave more control over my
emotions and my energy and sayI'm gonna draw a line here at
work.
Like I'm gonna do my best, I'mgonna do a great job.
Yeah, as long as I'm not askingme to do anything illegal or
unethical, I can draw a line andnot put my emotions into this
(07:42):
the way that it would damage mymental health.
Now, maybe that's easier saidthan done.
It's probably easier for me todo it than other people.
But I would say don't give yourpower to a place like that, and
if it's at a point where youcan't manage it.
You're like this person isabsolutely wrecking my mental
health.
Leave.
Yeah, they're, get out, they'rehelp wanted signs and every
other building down the streetand I get like some industries
(08:04):
are tough to move in and out.
Of.
You may have to, like leave acity and that, trust me, I know
that's a very difficult decision, right, but at the end of the
day, don't give away somethingso significant like the how
sacred mental health is, becausethat affects you, it affects
your family, it affectseverything about your life.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Well, absolutely, and even just to go back a little
bit that I want to be clear andsay there are Definitely toxic
environments and toxic leaders,right and to your point.
When that, when that happens,when it's actually deadly and
destructive To you, your family,whatever, absolutely, you've
got to not have a scarcitymindset, you got to leave, you
got to go right.
So I want to be clear that I'mnot saying that that doesn't
(08:44):
exist.
But, as you were talking justnow, you know, I think part of
the issue is Money, and financesare such a major source of
stress and anxiety in mostpeople's lives, right?
So, as most people, it's likeyou know.
And so I think, at the end ofthe day, it's you know, and I've
(09:07):
been part of the organizationswho attract people because of
purpose and calling, and thenmost people who have left my
team have left because they'relike, listen, I'm tired of
struggling financially,financially, yeah, and I'm like,
yeah, I gotta bless you forthat and I can go do that, right
.
And so I think a lot of thereasons why even we're having
(09:31):
this conversation and there's somuch identity wrapped up in
work and why it can impact ourmental health is because it
impacts our money.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And because money for a lot of us and I'll put myself
if I'm not careful finances andmoney will be the thing that is
center in my life, the thing Imean I've got a family, I've got
like, when you mess with mymoney and my provision and
everything else, or I have tomake decisions that put me in a
(10:02):
financial unknown, that can putme in a mental health crisis
immediately, and so here we aremaking money, kind of the Lord
of our life, if you will right,which is understandable.
It makes sense as to why theperson who can impact that
livelihood is the person whocaused us the most stress,
because what that actually means, when you say just leave, it's
(10:24):
like, well, great, that soundsgreat, but how do I provide?
And so I just think it's areframing.
Like you said, there is a deepwork that has to be done around
this idea of do I trust that theuniverse, your higher power,
(10:44):
whatever you would say that Godis actually kind, is actually a
provider, that good things likewhat is my philosophical belief
about the world?
That good things come my way,that I can make hard decisions
that are right, based on values,and those will be rewarded in
whatever like cosmic ecosystemthat we believe in.
(11:05):
You know what I'm saying.
So I think most of us,including myself, live with a
scarcity mindset, live around.
If I draw boundary here, thenI'm gonna really be screwed or
I'm really struggle.
Well, what I've found justrecently, in the last few years,
for me personally, is that onthe other side of very difficult
(11:25):
decisions are good things.
We don't have to live with ascarcity mindset.
So this is a long winded mejust saying I get it like it's
super tough.
It's super tough to make thosedecisions and it makes sense why
a leader can have so muchinfluence over your mental
health.
But I think back to your pointand you always say things
(11:46):
shorter and better.
I'm long winded to get to mypoint but I do think that you
know us reframing ourrelationship with work, like
going back to that clip.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I think if we draw boundaries over what we value
and who we are as individuals,we don't have to allow that
statistic to be true right, yeah, and I think my last thing
because we do always wanna keepthis short, like we talk about
is, if you're a person who feelslike you are the person whose
mental health is being impacted.
My number one thing before youmake any other decision, before
(12:20):
you put your resume on LinkedIn,is get perspective first.
A lot of times, when you cansee the situation for what it is
, things get clear and if youever travel to third world
countries, you can see there'snot an association with
resources and happiness andsatisfaction.
That is a uniquely kind ofAmerican Western culture value
where, if I have resources, Ican be content, and cultures
(12:44):
after cultures and places wherethere are little to no resources
.
People are so satisfied and I'mnot saying life is easy there,
but I think perspective willshow you that man, maybe things
won't be quite as bad as I thinkthey are, but when we are
holding our job and our financesthis close to our face, you
just can't see what's really outthere and it's like, okay,
climb up a mountain, get sometime away and try to see life
(13:06):
for what it really is and Iguarantee you taking a 10 or 20
or 30% pay drop to switchindustries or to move cities
would be a trade you'd make overand, over and over again to
have what feels like a healthylife back.
Good stuff, man.
Thanks, man, yeah.
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